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Speaker 1: Apodja Production.
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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Poison, the podcast about the social media influencer who allegedly drugged a child for fame and followers.
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Speaker 1: I'm Jay Walkinen, I'm Mickey Fisher, and.
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Speaker 2: Today's episode, we're going to recap a little bit about what we talked about last week, and then we want to bring up a conversation I guess about some of the things that me and you have been talking off mike about over the last couple of weeks. And it's certainly a conversation that is happening out there in the world.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's a conversation that's really finally being had a lot and I know even a lot of our community and a lot of our listeners. It's something that they're really interested in and something that they're discussing. So I think it's important that we have a chat about it.
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Speaker 2: Excellent, So let's firstly go to we are going to do a live show, and that live show Q and A is going to happen this coming Thursday, in fact, so a couple of nights. If you've already applied for the show, then you would have got a link to a private recording of it and that'll be our next episode where we get a lot of Q and A questions. Last week's episode with b Yorka who's the expert in Munchausen bar Proxy such an interesting episode. Yeah, how what was the feedback like and how did you feel about the episode now it's a week gone.
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Speaker 3: Well, I think a lot of people found it as interesting as I think we did and got a lot out of it. There was some feedback around. I know we had someone email us in regards to when she was talking about autism diagnosises and ADHD diagnosises and whether or not what Beatrice was saying was helpful because it's difficult enough. I guess as parents who were trying to get a diagnosis for their child, they don't really want anyone to be adding any another thing, another layer of suspicion, I think is sort of what they were saying.
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Speaker 2: What Beatrice was telling us last week was essentially her observations as a person that had looked into this across a period of time.
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Speaker 4: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: I think the reality is is that there are times where there is a misdiagnosis and then there are times where there isn't a diagnosis at all.
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Speaker 2: As I mentioned, We do have a Q and A coming up this week we're recording. That'll be next week's episode, but I wanted to grab out a couple of these questions, Micky, there's a couple in there that I actually don't know the answer to. One of the questions was how do you put your own opinions aside when we're recording? And is it difficult for us to not modern maate comment of our own.
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Speaker 3: Well, I really like that question because I think it's something that we're.
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Speaker 1: Both very aware of. For me, I know that my opinion doesn't.
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Speaker 3: Help the case, and at the end of the day, even my intuition anything in regards to it doesn't mean anything unless there's actually any facts anyway, So I think everybody we've all got opinion and it's just like an interesting thing to have. But until the evidence is there, it doesn't mean anything.
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Speaker 2: We will hear more of that evidence, we don't know how much more. On the twenty eighth of this month of April list the next.
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Speaker 1: Mentioned in court, Well how about you, Jay.
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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I don't find it hard because for the same reason I don't think it's helpful. I don't think it's helpful to have an opinion this happened or this is what I feel about this. I think if we're honest in presenting this podcast, the reason we wanted to do it was shine a light on it, and along the way it's become more than what we thought it was going to be when we first started.
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Speaker 4: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And it opens up a whole bunch of other questions, some of them are going to delve into today. So I don't think it's difficult, because that's not what the intent of the show was in the first place.
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Speaker 3: The next question was, now that the data is cleared, are we able to get him on.
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Speaker 2: Basically, we've asked a question to him and we've had a response that he's nervous about the access to his children, Yeah, and how coming on a show might impede that, Yeah, which I think is fair. And so the offer is always there for him to come on. What we would have to make sure is that we don't ask him anything about this case, yes, because if he ends up being a witness in the case, you would imagine that messes with a whole bunch of legal things that we just don't want to mess with.
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Speaker 5: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, So I think the right thing to do is if he was to come on, it would be about how he's feeling mm hm and how he's coping, not about what did you see? What happened? What are the allegations, how did it all go down? Yeah, I think that would be the wrong thing to do, certainly at this point. Yeah, and then the final question. There's plenty more of these questions, and we're going to obviously delve into more of them in the next Q and A. But I think this is a really interesting one because I spent a bit of time thinking about this question, and it is in this particular case, these allegations, what has shocked you the most?
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Speaker 1: Oh, what has shocked me the most?
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Speaker 3: I feel like I've got two answers because I've got one that's very relevant to the case. And to be honest, I think the thing that shocked me the most was that was real. I think when we went to court and there was evidence and there were videos, and because I think to a degree, you're sitting there going like this feels outrageous, Like surely not.
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Speaker 4: It feels like a Hollywood movie.
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Speaker 2: Totally horrible Hollywood movie, but a Hollywood movie.
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Speaker 5: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: Absolutely, So, I think I've felt genuine shocked when we went in and there was evidence and there was you know, so I think that shocked me. And then I think the other thing that shocked me is really just how prevalent it is. Like we started the podcast, we're talking about an influencer who has like put their children online, and you.
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Speaker 1: Know what's become of that.
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Speaker 3: But then realizing, you know, like the Ruby Frank case has sort of come up, and Bell Gibson sort of like been showing up again, and people are really talking about what social media is doing for children in so many different ways. And I think that's been something that's constantly on my mind.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's the same for me.
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Speaker 2: Like where you've seen it might be a terrible analogy, but you might get what I mean.
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Speaker 4: You know, when you're.
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Speaker 2: About to buy a car, you're thinking of getting the new toy at a camera and then you drive down the street. You've never seen a toy out of camera before, but it's sends suddenly every second car as a toilet a cameray. Yes, it's like this case. You know, there's the Ruby Frank staff. There's the show Adolescence, which I know we've both just watched all though different similar bullying online. There's the federal government who have just changed laws around kids being online. There's influences that we know or know of that are changing the way they behave online. So it just feels like it's right in our face right now, which I think is a good thing.
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Speaker 3: Yes, I agree, And I think we've said from the start that it's important for us to use this case as a way to really begin this conversation or like really make the conversation more prevalent, you know, something that we all get involved in, because I don't think it's something that we can attach shame too. Because we are the first generation who have children online. A lot of us are the first to you know, be dealing with social media and then dealing with social media.
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Speaker 1: At our kids.
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Speaker 3: And we're starting to see the repercussions of it now, and so I think we're going, oh, wow, we actually have to do something about this.
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Speaker 2: I think i'd love to talk now about the Ruby Frank case happened in twenty twenty three. If you're not across the case, the overview is she was a mummy vlogger, blogger if you like, a bunch of followers six million I think it was.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, across YouTube.
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Speaker 3: I think she was really big on YouTube and then got on the TikTok and everything else.
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Speaker 4: And so did you know of her?
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Speaker 3: I never, I didn't know anything about her until Little came out and I was instantly very intrigued.
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Speaker 1: I listened to podcasts about it.
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Speaker 3: There's now documentary out on Disney because it was horrific.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so the way this was uncovered was her twelve year old son was able to escape the house to next door neighbor. And he's a bit of a nine one that the neighbor made when the child turned up nine. I'm on the address of your emergency okay, and the phone number calling from.
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Speaker 5: Tell me exactly what's happened. I just had a twelve year old boy show up here at my front door asking for help. And he's said he had just came from a neighbor's house, and we know there's been problems at this neighbor's house. He's emaciated, he's got tape around his legs, he's hungry and he's thirsty. Okay, he is your door locked? No, I'm sitting outside with him on the front patio, and he asked us to call the police. This kid has obviously been I think he's he's changed, he's obviously covered in worlds.
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Speaker 2: Okay, let's get the.
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Speaker 5: Paramedics edit over that way. Okay, Oh, that's a good idea too.
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Speaker 3: It's just shocking, like it's horrific, especially when you learn about the rest of the story and things start to become revealed, and because like you know, I heard that when it sort of first came about, and you know, there was like allegations of abuse and then people were going back through old videos that they'd done, and the way that she spoke to the children, like she wouldn't give them food or make a child sleep on the floor as punishment. She was very like I think, quite conservative and very like strong about children need to be punished for their actions.
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Speaker 2: And Ruby has an older daughter called Shari, and Shari obviously lived with her mum for a period of time and she's now come out. She's written a book. But her first thing was to go before Parliament in the studs, the House of Reps and actually addressed if you like, almost as a victim impact statement.
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Speaker 4: And he's a part of that. Now, thank you.
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Speaker 1: For having me today.
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Speaker 6: My name is Shery Franky My mother Ruby Frankie is a prominent family blogger that was arrested last year for child abuse. I don't come today as a daughter of a felon, nor as a victim of an abnormally abusive mother.
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Speaker 1: I come today as a victim of family blogging.
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Speaker 6: My goal is not to present any idea of a solution to this problem, but to shed light on the ethical and monetary issues that come from being a child influencer. When children become stars in their family's online content, they become child influencers. It is more than just filming your family life and putting it online. It is a full time job with employees, business credit cards, managers, and marketing strategies. The difference between family blogging and a normal business, however, is that all the children are employees. Children from before they are born to the day they turn eighteen have become the stars of family business on YouTube, Instagram, and other social media platforms. Utah is specifically a hotspot for family content due to the LDS culture around family and the goal to share the Church with the world. We also have large families, which makes family content more lucrative. Specifically, many parents film their regular family life as an online video blog called of vlog.
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Speaker 1: But I want to be.
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Speaker 6: Clear that there is never ever a good reason for posting your children online for money or theme. There is no such thing as a moral or ethical family blogger.
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Speaker 2: We reached out to Showeri to see if she'll come on the show because I think her perspective would be really interesting.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, as the child, as a child who you know, was constantly filmed, who constantly had a camera in her face, who you know parts of her life was shared online without her consent, you know, because like can a child really consent to being on social media?
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Speaker 4: And it's a really interesting question.
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Speaker 2: I think that's where the reason we wanted to bring up this Ruby Frankie kais is because that's the question it pauses for us ROT.
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Speaker 5: Today we are starting off our day the way we do every day.
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Speaker 6: Now for the first time Ruby's eldest daughter, Sheeri, is telling her story. Sometimes I'll like see myself in the mirror and I'm like, oh my gosh, like I look like her or I sound like her, But I don't want to be anything like her. When I was younger, around like five or six, like Ruby was really physical like, you know, whether it was like a slap to the lip or slap to the cheek when I would practice a piano, you know, like her hand would slam, and like it was really scary.
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Speaker 1: To my babies, my six little chicks.
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Speaker 5: You are a part of me.
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Speaker 1: Did you believe that she was apologetic?
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Speaker 6: I think that she's as sorry as she can be. What she has done is so bad that I don't think her mind allows her to kind of fully comprehend the.
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Speaker 1: Guilt of all that, and.
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Speaker 6: So I think that she probably genuinely believed everything she said.
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Speaker 1: I don't believe it, though.
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Speaker 3: It's interesting that we're talking about this because someone put a post up and I haven't we have to approve everything, haven't approved it to go out yet, because I thought it'd be interesting for us to discuss it first. And I'm seeing a lot of people online really starting to talk about how we share our children online. A lot of influencers are starting to take their children offline. They're starting to talk out about it, and it's obviously something that I think is starting to be spoken of. So this person, this anonymous member in our Facebook group, they said this case is a perfect example, this case being Obviously the case yeah is a perfect example of child exploitation for money, which is one of the charges against this person. I know the government is working on stopping children under a certain age joining social media platforms, but what can be done to stop parents risking their child's safety to exploit them for money. In this instance, previous photos showed their home, car, school uniforms, etc. Their names are mentioned, and their daily activities. On one site, a member said that it took them fifteen or so minutes to find where they lived, the children's names, parents named, sibling names and other private details put in the daily post for anyone to see. What perfect tools for someone to abduct a child. Prompts on the site were subscribed for more photos. What photos were they? Photos of a child before such after brain surgery? Selling your child's privacy for seven dollars? Really, what parent would publish the personal photos of a child in such a vulnerable state. This raises another question is there any check on the subscribers? Are these influencers just interested in the money they can make or do they do a check on the potential subscribers as in like are they checking to make sure there's not widos that are exactly how do you know?
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Speaker 2: How do you know someone's a wido from a Facebook profile? Micky, I think it's important to mention that you yourself, and I know you don't like this label, but I'm going to label it for a moment. If you're okay, you're a mummy blogger back in the day when you first got on socials, yes, and you definitely took pictures of your kids, yes, and you used.
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Speaker 4: Them online yep.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely.
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Speaker 2: To go back to what you said earlier, this is not about shaming you. This is about bringing attention to it. What was the decision for you to stop using your kids on social.
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Speaker 3: So there were two things that really niggled at my mind. A lot for starters, Yes, I was over sharing my daughter so much. I look back now and I think what was I doing? And because I think people begin doing it quite innocently, and a lot of people are like, whether you've got five followers or you've got five million followers, I think the reality is is do you really know who's following you? And even if it's like an uncle, like, it's happening not just online, it's happening within families and all of that. But I would share my kids online, and occasionally I would have people message me and go, oh, like, I don't want to be nasty, or this is just like coming from you know, someone who works in child protection. But maybe that's a bit too much to share of.
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Speaker 1: Your child or whatever.
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Speaker 3: So there were messages like that, which is why I think it's actually really helpful for you know, when people are saying things like this and maybe trying to call in influences and say, hey, like I really like what you do, but maybe you are over sharing your child a little bit. I don't think that's a bad thing. Because that was part of my wake up call. I kept thinking about consent, which is something that's really important to me and should be everybody. But I kept thinking, my kids can't consent to this, and am I sharing their energy? And am I sharing parts of them that they don't know about? They never said yes to this, They don't know the people who are commenting on it.
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Speaker 1: And people can be seen next.
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Speaker 3: Tuesdays online and say whatever they want. And that's fine if it's to me, even as me I can barely cop.
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Speaker 1: It, But how about a child you know?
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Speaker 3: And people on the internet that don't care if it's a child, or if it's an adult, they'll make the same comments. So there was that aspect, just the consensual aspect.
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Speaker 1: And then the.
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Speaker 3: Thing that absolutely put me over the line was the safety I would be, you know, on stories posting, Oh we're going here, we're doing this today, we're blah blah blah blah. And then I got a letter in the mail or a card in the mail from my estranged father, who I don't have anything to do with. I don't talk to nothing, haven't for a very very long time. The start as he found my address, which was concerning in itself because we'd moved.
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Speaker 1: He shouldn't have had my address.
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Speaker 3: And in the card he wrote about things that my daughter and I had done.
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Speaker 1: Oh I saw that you went here.
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Speaker 3: I saw that you were there, things that I haven't had a conversation with. I hadn't had a conversation, nor have I saying like, oh, yeah, you know, we did this, we've done that. He should not have had access to that information. And for a lot of us, you know, we've got roast tinted glasses on where we don't think about people like that, people who will take all of that information, who will take those photos and do things with them. Take the fact that you've shown enough information that they can figure out where you live, what school your kids go to, when they're there, when they're at soccer, when they're at swimming, all of those things.
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Speaker 1: The reality is, are those people out there?
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Speaker 3: And like, it's our job as parents to protect our kids, not like throw them to the wolves, you know. And again this comes from I think if we add any layer of shame to this, it's not helpful because a lot of us we're not doing it to be malicious.
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Speaker 1: No one's doing it to be malicious.
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Speaker 3: But I think it is so important that if we've got the government going children under sixteen can't have social media, where's the line? Then, where's the line of putting a child on social media?
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Speaker 2: Well?
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Speaker 4: I have children and we think about the same things.
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Speaker 3: Well, and this is really interesting because we're at two different stages.
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Speaker 4: Right year old, My kids go, do not post that?
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Speaker 1: Yeah?
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Speaker 2: And I go, okay, They're about to go on their semi formal yes. And I said to them, I really want to take a picture of you for your semi formal? Is that okay? And they went sure, And I said, I'm going to post it too. Is that Okay, yeah, sure they will have complete veto on any photo that goes up on them. But I can tell you when they were younger, we posted with them and again we weren't thinking like the world is thinking now.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it really is like not something that you consider too much.
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Speaker 1: And even as far as like I just.
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Speaker 3: Kept putting myself in almost my kid's shoes, where you know, if I was to share something, as you said, I was a mummy blogger. I literally like wrote blogs on like my kids and the development and what they were going through, and I wasn't getting sleep and they were doing this and like you know, a nappy exploded or toilet training.
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Speaker 1: Things like that.
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Speaker 3: And then I went, you know, what, what if someone was talking about me online like that and I never got to consent to it. What if as an adult, someone's you know, taking a video of you having a tantrum struggling to deal with your emotions you're having, like say, you're balling your eyes out, Jay, and you're sitting here furious, upset, dealing with something whatever it is, and I've got my camera on you and I'm filming it, and then I post that online and that's become quite a normal thing. Is you know, we're filming our children in these really vulnerable states, whether it's like a good vulnerable, whether it's an emotional vulnerable, whatever it is.
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Speaker 1: But they haven't said yes to that.
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Speaker 2: I guess the question is, and this is the difficult question, at what level is okay? Here's I guess my point. I'm a proud dad. We have two beautiful girls, I've got an older son, and all of those things, of those milestone moments is really helpful. I've got family throughout Australia and overseas, and so it's great that they can see my kid's development.
00:21:28
Speaker 4: As they go.
00:21:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.
00:21:30
Speaker 4: It's a quandary for me as I go, Is that okay?
00:21:34
Speaker 2: Is it okay that if my kid learned to ride a bike for the first time, that I video that and put it on my socials because I'm proud?
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Speaker 4: Yeah?
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Speaker 2: And is there a difference between that and putting a kid on my socials because I'm trying to gain a following.
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Speaker 4: Or I'm trying to get a free.
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Speaker 1: Bike, yes, Or I need them for content.
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Speaker 4: Or I need them for content. I've gone.
00:21:59
Speaker 2: Actually, my content calendar this week is two bits of content, a little bit on the podcast, little bit of my own own life. I guess it goes back to intent. Yeah, it's a really difficult one. It's a really I understand and I'll probably get some hate for this, But what I'm trying to do is open up a conversation. Yeah, to go what is reasonable? Is it a blanket ban on consent? My kid can't say yes, put that photo online? So I can't ever do that again.
00:22:28
Speaker 3: Because I think, like what you were saying about sharing it with friends and family and all of that, that to me feels like normal. I do that, Like I've got spaces where I do share photos of my kids and what they're doing to family and friends. And one thing that I often think when it comes to, you know, being an online presence and being someone with you know, influence or whatever, can you be online without showing your kids? Do you need your children to be able to create content? Are you able to show up just you by yourself? And that was like a really big thing for me when I was really going back and forth with it, was I wrote about being a mum.
00:23:15
Speaker 1: That was my whole thing.
00:23:16
Speaker 3: I was a mummy blogger and all of that who am I without using my kids then? And for me it really then just went on, well, it shouldn't be about them, it should be about me. I can talk about your mine, your experiences, and I can talk about what it's like to be a mum, and there's actually it was really empowering to really bring it back to me, you know, And I think for a lot of people, I think we all have that opportunity and you can still share about your experience as a parent without sharing your kids.
00:23:50
Speaker 2: And I think what we've just heard before with Shari Frankie's interview on Tally, which was you're not going to know the impact you've had on those children hour of an age where they can have a conversation with you totally. And so Sharif Frankie has now come out and gone it was terrible, Like the things that happened to me were horrible. We're talking about the extreme here, so we're not talking about posting pictures of the kids online. We're talking about the extreme of that.
00:24:23
Speaker 1: Particular case over sharing.
00:24:25
Speaker 2: And you think about the case that we're talking about, the one here in Australia, the child that's involved there in twenty thirty years time, will be the person that we're talking about. Yeah, and their life and struggles have been shared for eighteen months and probably in real life the next three years is likely to be talked about because of courkcases and the ongoing saga that is this particular case.
00:24:59
Speaker 3: And I again I'm talking like you say, you might get some backlash. I've got friends who are in They're some of my best friends, and we have conversations about this and they know I guess how I feel about it. But again, like I think it's just an important conversation to have again without shaming anyone more about just going hey, it's okay to change your mind and maybe we should discuss.
00:25:22
Speaker 2: Like any conversation. Yeah, it might help you think about something differently.
00:25:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely and.
00:25:29
Speaker 2: Make you second guess the next time you go to post to be true of your kid? How would I feel hmmm if I was my child?
00:25:36
Speaker 1: Yeah?
00:25:37
Speaker 3: And can I make money without using them? Would I be making the same money without them? And like, I'd love to know people's thoughts as well.
00:25:45
Speaker 4: I think we'll get them.
00:25:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think whether we ask.
00:25:48
Speaker 5: Them or.
00:25:51
Speaker 4: We'll get them.
00:25:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, Because as you said, and it's kind of like the show adolescence. At the end, it wasn't uh, these are all the answers, and you know, this is what we have to do. When we've got all the answers right there. It was a completely open ended question when this is what happening, what do we do about it? And I think this is that same case. This is what's happening, what do we do about it?
00:26:13
Speaker 2: Our next episode is A Q and A and where you get to that's my daughter still calling me, So something really BIG's happening. Yeah, yeah, probably Billie Artis just dropped that album or something I would say. But we do have the opportunity for still a few people to come on for that Q and A. The links in the show notes if you want to join it. It closes off tonight, that is Tuesday night, anight, and we'll be back next Tuesday with A Q and A on poison see that see later. Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story. Independent storytelling that shapes the world is what Pod Shape really cares about. Right now, there's thousands of people listening to this show and our other true Crimes, and they're completely engaged. More than ten million Australians listen to podcasts each week. If you've ever thought about advertising your business in a podcast, there's a link to reach out in the show notes, or head to podshape dot com to book a free call.
Speaker 1: Apodja Production.
00:00:15
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Poison, the podcast about the social media influencer who allegedly drugged a child for fame and followers.
00:00:21
Speaker 1: I'm Jay Walkinen, I'm Mickey Fisher, and.
00:00:23
Speaker 2: Today's episode, we're going to recap a little bit about what we talked about last week, and then we want to bring up a conversation I guess about some of the things that me and you have been talking off mike about over the last couple of weeks. And it's certainly a conversation that is happening out there in the world.
00:00:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's a conversation that's really finally being had a lot and I know even a lot of our community and a lot of our listeners. It's something that they're really interested in and something that they're discussing. So I think it's important that we have a chat about it.
00:00:52
Speaker 2: Excellent, So let's firstly go to we are going to do a live show, and that live show Q and A is going to happen this coming Thursday, in fact, so a couple of nights. If you've already applied for the show, then you would have got a link to a private recording of it and that'll be our next episode where we get a lot of Q and A questions. Last week's episode with b Yorka who's the expert in Munchausen bar Proxy such an interesting episode. Yeah, how what was the feedback like and how did you feel about the episode now it's a week gone.
00:01:23
Speaker 3: Well, I think a lot of people found it as interesting as I think we did and got a lot out of it. There was some feedback around. I know we had someone email us in regards to when she was talking about autism diagnosises and ADHD diagnosises and whether or not what Beatrice was saying was helpful because it's difficult enough. I guess as parents who were trying to get a diagnosis for their child, they don't really want anyone to be adding any another thing, another layer of suspicion, I think is sort of what they were saying.
00:01:56
Speaker 2: What Beatrice was telling us last week was essentially her observations as a person that had looked into this across a period of time.
00:02:04
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:02:04
Speaker 3: I think the reality is is that there are times where there is a misdiagnosis and then there are times where there isn't a diagnosis at all.
00:02:13
Speaker 2: As I mentioned, We do have a Q and A coming up this week we're recording. That'll be next week's episode, but I wanted to grab out a couple of these questions, Micky, there's a couple in there that I actually don't know the answer to. One of the questions was how do you put your own opinions aside when we're recording? And is it difficult for us to not modern maate comment of our own.
00:02:31
Speaker 3: Well, I really like that question because I think it's something that we're.
00:02:34
Speaker 1: Both very aware of. For me, I know that my opinion doesn't.
00:02:39
Speaker 3: Help the case, and at the end of the day, even my intuition anything in regards to it doesn't mean anything unless there's actually any facts anyway, So I think everybody we've all got opinion and it's just like an interesting thing to have. But until the evidence is there, it doesn't mean anything.
00:03:00
Speaker 2: We will hear more of that evidence, we don't know how much more. On the twenty eighth of this month of April list the next.
00:03:06
Speaker 1: Mentioned in court, Well how about you, Jay.
00:03:09
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I don't find it hard because for the same reason I don't think it's helpful. I don't think it's helpful to have an opinion this happened or this is what I feel about this. I think if we're honest in presenting this podcast, the reason we wanted to do it was shine a light on it, and along the way it's become more than what we thought it was going to be when we first started.
00:03:31
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:03:31
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And it opens up a whole bunch of other questions, some of them are going to delve into today. So I don't think it's difficult, because that's not what the intent of the show was in the first place.
00:03:42
Speaker 3: The next question was, now that the data is cleared, are we able to get him on.
00:03:47
Speaker 2: Basically, we've asked a question to him and we've had a response that he's nervous about the access to his children, Yeah, and how coming on a show might impede that, Yeah, which I think is fair. And so the offer is always there for him to come on. What we would have to make sure is that we don't ask him anything about this case, yes, because if he ends up being a witness in the case, you would imagine that messes with a whole bunch of legal things that we just don't want to mess with.
00:04:18
Speaker 5: Yeah.
00:04:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, So I think the right thing to do is if he was to come on, it would be about how he's feeling mm hm and how he's coping, not about what did you see? What happened? What are the allegations, how did it all go down? Yeah, I think that would be the wrong thing to do, certainly at this point. Yeah, and then the final question. There's plenty more of these questions, and we're going to obviously delve into more of them in the next Q and A. But I think this is a really interesting one because I spent a bit of time thinking about this question, and it is in this particular case, these allegations, what has shocked you the most?
00:04:52
Speaker 1: Oh, what has shocked me the most?
00:04:55
Speaker 3: I feel like I've got two answers because I've got one that's very relevant to the case. And to be honest, I think the thing that shocked me the most was that was real. I think when we went to court and there was evidence and there were videos, and because I think to a degree, you're sitting there going like this feels outrageous, Like surely not.
00:05:19
Speaker 4: It feels like a Hollywood movie.
00:05:21
Speaker 2: Totally horrible Hollywood movie, but a Hollywood movie.
00:05:25
Speaker 5: Yeah.
00:05:25
Speaker 3: Absolutely, So, I think I've felt genuine shocked when we went in and there was evidence and there was you know, so I think that shocked me. And then I think the other thing that shocked me is really just how prevalent it is. Like we started the podcast, we're talking about an influencer who has like put their children online, and you.
00:05:44
Speaker 1: Know what's become of that.
00:05:45
Speaker 3: But then realizing, you know, like the Ruby Frank case has sort of come up, and Bell Gibson sort of like been showing up again, and people are really talking about what social media is doing for children in so many different ways. And I think that's been something that's constantly on my mind.
00:06:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's the same for me.
00:06:04
Speaker 2: Like where you've seen it might be a terrible analogy, but you might get what I mean.
00:06:09
Speaker 4: You know, when you're.
00:06:10
Speaker 2: About to buy a car, you're thinking of getting the new toy at a camera and then you drive down the street. You've never seen a toy out of camera before, but it's sends suddenly every second car as a toilet a cameray. Yes, it's like this case. You know, there's the Ruby Frank staff. There's the show Adolescence, which I know we've both just watched all though different similar bullying online. There's the federal government who have just changed laws around kids being online. There's influences that we know or know of that are changing the way they behave online. So it just feels like it's right in our face right now, which I think is a good thing.
00:06:46
Speaker 3: Yes, I agree, And I think we've said from the start that it's important for us to use this case as a way to really begin this conversation or like really make the conversation more prevalent, you know, something that we all get involved in, because I don't think it's something that we can attach shame too. Because we are the first generation who have children online. A lot of us are the first to you know, be dealing with social media and then dealing with social media.
00:07:14
Speaker 1: At our kids.
00:07:15
Speaker 3: And we're starting to see the repercussions of it now, and so I think we're going, oh, wow, we actually have to do something about this.
00:07:21
Speaker 2: I think i'd love to talk now about the Ruby Frank case happened in twenty twenty three. If you're not across the case, the overview is she was a mummy vlogger, blogger if you like, a bunch of followers six million I think it was.
00:07:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, across YouTube.
00:07:35
Speaker 3: I think she was really big on YouTube and then got on the TikTok and everything else.
00:07:39
Speaker 4: And so did you know of her?
00:07:40
Speaker 3: I never, I didn't know anything about her until Little came out and I was instantly very intrigued.
00:07:47
Speaker 1: I listened to podcasts about it.
00:07:48
Speaker 3: There's now documentary out on Disney because it was horrific.
00:07:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so the way this was uncovered was her twelve year old son was able to escape the house to next door neighbor. And he's a bit of a nine one that the neighbor made when the child turned up nine. I'm on the address of your emergency okay, and the phone number calling from.
00:08:17
Speaker 5: Tell me exactly what's happened. I just had a twelve year old boy show up here at my front door asking for help. And he's said he had just came from a neighbor's house, and we know there's been problems at this neighbor's house. He's emaciated, he's got tape around his legs, he's hungry and he's thirsty. Okay, he is your door locked? No, I'm sitting outside with him on the front patio, and he asked us to call the police. This kid has obviously been I think he's he's changed, he's obviously covered in worlds.
00:09:13
Speaker 2: Okay, let's get the.
00:09:16
Speaker 5: Paramedics edit over that way. Okay, Oh, that's a good idea too.
00:09:22
Speaker 3: It's just shocking, like it's horrific, especially when you learn about the rest of the story and things start to become revealed, and because like you know, I heard that when it sort of first came about, and you know, there was like allegations of abuse and then people were going back through old videos that they'd done, and the way that she spoke to the children, like she wouldn't give them food or make a child sleep on the floor as punishment. She was very like I think, quite conservative and very like strong about children need to be punished for their actions.
00:09:53
Speaker 2: And Ruby has an older daughter called Shari, and Shari obviously lived with her mum for a period of time and she's now come out. She's written a book. But her first thing was to go before Parliament in the studs, the House of Reps and actually addressed if you like, almost as a victim impact statement.
00:10:11
Speaker 4: And he's a part of that. Now, thank you.
00:10:14
Speaker 1: For having me today.
00:10:15
Speaker 6: My name is Shery Franky My mother Ruby Frankie is a prominent family blogger that was arrested last year for child abuse. I don't come today as a daughter of a felon, nor as a victim of an abnormally abusive mother.
00:10:28
Speaker 1: I come today as a victim of family blogging.
00:10:31
Speaker 6: My goal is not to present any idea of a solution to this problem, but to shed light on the ethical and monetary issues that come from being a child influencer. When children become stars in their family's online content, they become child influencers. It is more than just filming your family life and putting it online. It is a full time job with employees, business credit cards, managers, and marketing strategies. The difference between family blogging and a normal business, however, is that all the children are employees. Children from before they are born to the day they turn eighteen have become the stars of family business on YouTube, Instagram, and other social media platforms. Utah is specifically a hotspot for family content due to the LDS culture around family and the goal to share the Church with the world. We also have large families, which makes family content more lucrative. Specifically, many parents film their regular family life as an online video blog called of vlog.
00:11:26
Speaker 1: But I want to be.
00:11:27
Speaker 6: Clear that there is never ever a good reason for posting your children online for money or theme. There is no such thing as a moral or ethical family blogger.
00:11:37
Speaker 2: We reached out to Showeri to see if she'll come on the show because I think her perspective would be really interesting.
00:11:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, as the child, as a child who you know, was constantly filmed, who constantly had a camera in her face, who you know parts of her life was shared online without her consent, you know, because like can a child really consent to being on social media?
00:12:02
Speaker 4: And it's a really interesting question.
00:12:04
Speaker 2: I think that's where the reason we wanted to bring up this Ruby Frankie kais is because that's the question it pauses for us ROT.
00:12:12
Speaker 5: Today we are starting off our day the way we do every day.
00:12:16
Speaker 6: Now for the first time Ruby's eldest daughter, Sheeri, is telling her story. Sometimes I'll like see myself in the mirror and I'm like, oh my gosh, like I look like her or I sound like her, But I don't want to be anything like her. When I was younger, around like five or six, like Ruby was really physical like, you know, whether it was like a slap to the lip or slap to the cheek when I would practice a piano, you know, like her hand would slam, and like it was really scary.
00:12:44
Speaker 1: To my babies, my six little chicks.
00:12:51
Speaker 5: You are a part of me.
00:12:53
Speaker 1: Did you believe that she was apologetic?
00:12:56
Speaker 6: I think that she's as sorry as she can be. What she has done is so bad that I don't think her mind allows her to kind of fully comprehend the.
00:13:04
Speaker 1: Guilt of all that, and.
00:13:05
Speaker 6: So I think that she probably genuinely believed everything she said.
00:13:11
Speaker 1: I don't believe it, though.
00:13:18
Speaker 3: It's interesting that we're talking about this because someone put a post up and I haven't we have to approve everything, haven't approved it to go out yet, because I thought it'd be interesting for us to discuss it first. And I'm seeing a lot of people online really starting to talk about how we share our children online. A lot of influencers are starting to take their children offline. They're starting to talk out about it, and it's obviously something that I think is starting to be spoken of. So this person, this anonymous member in our Facebook group, they said this case is a perfect example, this case being Obviously the case yeah is a perfect example of child exploitation for money, which is one of the charges against this person. I know the government is working on stopping children under a certain age joining social media platforms, but what can be done to stop parents risking their child's safety to exploit them for money. In this instance, previous photos showed their home, car, school uniforms, etc. Their names are mentioned, and their daily activities. On one site, a member said that it took them fifteen or so minutes to find where they lived, the children's names, parents named, sibling names and other private details put in the daily post for anyone to see. What perfect tools for someone to abduct a child. Prompts on the site were subscribed for more photos. What photos were they? Photos of a child before such after brain surgery? Selling your child's privacy for seven dollars? Really, what parent would publish the personal photos of a child in such a vulnerable state. This raises another question is there any check on the subscribers? Are these influencers just interested in the money they can make or do they do a check on the potential subscribers as in like are they checking to make sure there's not widos that are exactly how do you know?
00:15:10
Speaker 2: How do you know someone's a wido from a Facebook profile? Micky, I think it's important to mention that you yourself, and I know you don't like this label, but I'm going to label it for a moment. If you're okay, you're a mummy blogger back in the day when you first got on socials, yes, and you definitely took pictures of your kids, yes, and you used.
00:15:26
Speaker 4: Them online yep.
00:15:27
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
00:15:27
Speaker 2: To go back to what you said earlier, this is not about shaming you. This is about bringing attention to it. What was the decision for you to stop using your kids on social.
00:15:39
Speaker 3: So there were two things that really niggled at my mind. A lot for starters, Yes, I was over sharing my daughter so much. I look back now and I think what was I doing? And because I think people begin doing it quite innocently, and a lot of people are like, whether you've got five followers or you've got five million followers, I think the reality is is do you really know who's following you? And even if it's like an uncle, like, it's happening not just online, it's happening within families and all of that. But I would share my kids online, and occasionally I would have people message me and go, oh, like, I don't want to be nasty, or this is just like coming from you know, someone who works in child protection. But maybe that's a bit too much to share of.
00:16:26
Speaker 1: Your child or whatever.
00:16:27
Speaker 3: So there were messages like that, which is why I think it's actually really helpful for you know, when people are saying things like this and maybe trying to call in influences and say, hey, like I really like what you do, but maybe you are over sharing your child a little bit. I don't think that's a bad thing. Because that was part of my wake up call. I kept thinking about consent, which is something that's really important to me and should be everybody. But I kept thinking, my kids can't consent to this, and am I sharing their energy? And am I sharing parts of them that they don't know about? They never said yes to this, They don't know the people who are commenting on it.
00:17:04
Speaker 1: And people can be seen next.
00:17:06
Speaker 3: Tuesdays online and say whatever they want. And that's fine if it's to me, even as me I can barely cop.
00:17:11
Speaker 1: It, But how about a child you know?
00:17:15
Speaker 3: And people on the internet that don't care if it's a child, or if it's an adult, they'll make the same comments. So there was that aspect, just the consensual aspect.
00:17:23
Speaker 1: And then the.
00:17:24
Speaker 3: Thing that absolutely put me over the line was the safety I would be, you know, on stories posting, Oh we're going here, we're doing this today, we're blah blah blah blah. And then I got a letter in the mail or a card in the mail from my estranged father, who I don't have anything to do with. I don't talk to nothing, haven't for a very very long time. The start as he found my address, which was concerning in itself because we'd moved.
00:17:49
Speaker 1: He shouldn't have had my address.
00:17:51
Speaker 3: And in the card he wrote about things that my daughter and I had done.
00:17:58
Speaker 1: Oh I saw that you went here.
00:18:00
Speaker 3: I saw that you were there, things that I haven't had a conversation with. I hadn't had a conversation, nor have I saying like, oh, yeah, you know, we did this, we've done that. He should not have had access to that information. And for a lot of us, you know, we've got roast tinted glasses on where we don't think about people like that, people who will take all of that information, who will take those photos and do things with them. Take the fact that you've shown enough information that they can figure out where you live, what school your kids go to, when they're there, when they're at soccer, when they're at swimming, all of those things.
00:18:38
Speaker 1: The reality is, are those people out there?
00:18:42
Speaker 3: And like, it's our job as parents to protect our kids, not like throw them to the wolves, you know. And again this comes from I think if we add any layer of shame to this, it's not helpful because a lot of us we're not doing it to be malicious.
00:18:57
Speaker 1: No one's doing it to be malicious.
00:18:58
Speaker 3: But I think it is so important that if we've got the government going children under sixteen can't have social media, where's the line? Then, where's the line of putting a child on social media?
00:19:12
Speaker 2: Well?
00:19:12
Speaker 4: I have children and we think about the same things.
00:19:15
Speaker 3: Well, and this is really interesting because we're at two different stages.
00:19:18
Speaker 4: Right year old, My kids go, do not post that?
00:19:22
Speaker 1: Yeah?
00:19:23
Speaker 2: And I go, okay, They're about to go on their semi formal yes. And I said to them, I really want to take a picture of you for your semi formal? Is that okay? And they went sure, And I said, I'm going to post it too. Is that Okay, yeah, sure they will have complete veto on any photo that goes up on them. But I can tell you when they were younger, we posted with them and again we weren't thinking like the world is thinking now.
00:19:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it really is like not something that you consider too much.
00:19:56
Speaker 1: And even as far as like I just.
00:19:58
Speaker 3: Kept putting myself in almost my kid's shoes, where you know, if I was to share something, as you said, I was a mummy blogger. I literally like wrote blogs on like my kids and the development and what they were going through, and I wasn't getting sleep and they were doing this and like you know, a nappy exploded or toilet training.
00:20:18
Speaker 1: Things like that.
00:20:20
Speaker 3: And then I went, you know, what, what if someone was talking about me online like that and I never got to consent to it. What if as an adult, someone's you know, taking a video of you having a tantrum struggling to deal with your emotions you're having, like say, you're balling your eyes out, Jay, and you're sitting here furious, upset, dealing with something whatever it is, and I've got my camera on you and I'm filming it, and then I post that online and that's become quite a normal thing. Is you know, we're filming our children in these really vulnerable states, whether it's like a good vulnerable, whether it's an emotional vulnerable, whatever it is.
00:20:59
Speaker 1: But they haven't said yes to that.
00:21:01
Speaker 2: I guess the question is, and this is the difficult question, at what level is okay? Here's I guess my point. I'm a proud dad. We have two beautiful girls, I've got an older son, and all of those things, of those milestone moments is really helpful. I've got family throughout Australia and overseas, and so it's great that they can see my kid's development.
00:21:28
Speaker 4: As they go.
00:21:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.
00:21:30
Speaker 4: It's a quandary for me as I go, Is that okay?
00:21:34
Speaker 2: Is it okay that if my kid learned to ride a bike for the first time, that I video that and put it on my socials because I'm proud?
00:21:42
Speaker 4: Yeah?
00:21:43
Speaker 2: And is there a difference between that and putting a kid on my socials because I'm trying to gain a following.
00:21:53
Speaker 4: Or I'm trying to get a free.
00:21:55
Speaker 1: Bike, yes, Or I need them for content.
00:21:58
Speaker 4: Or I need them for content. I've gone.
00:21:59
Speaker 2: Actually, my content calendar this week is two bits of content, a little bit on the podcast, little bit of my own own life. I guess it goes back to intent. Yeah, it's a really difficult one. It's a really I understand and I'll probably get some hate for this, But what I'm trying to do is open up a conversation. Yeah, to go what is reasonable? Is it a blanket ban on consent? My kid can't say yes, put that photo online? So I can't ever do that again.
00:22:28
Speaker 3: Because I think, like what you were saying about sharing it with friends and family and all of that, that to me feels like normal. I do that, Like I've got spaces where I do share photos of my kids and what they're doing to family and friends. And one thing that I often think when it comes to, you know, being an online presence and being someone with you know, influence or whatever, can you be online without showing your kids? Do you need your children to be able to create content? Are you able to show up just you by yourself? And that was like a really big thing for me when I was really going back and forth with it, was I wrote about being a mum.
00:23:15
Speaker 1: That was my whole thing.
00:23:16
Speaker 3: I was a mummy blogger and all of that who am I without using my kids then? And for me it really then just went on, well, it shouldn't be about them, it should be about me. I can talk about your mine, your experiences, and I can talk about what it's like to be a mum, and there's actually it was really empowering to really bring it back to me, you know, And I think for a lot of people, I think we all have that opportunity and you can still share about your experience as a parent without sharing your kids.
00:23:50
Speaker 2: And I think what we've just heard before with Shari Frankie's interview on Tally, which was you're not going to know the impact you've had on those children hour of an age where they can have a conversation with you totally. And so Sharif Frankie has now come out and gone it was terrible, Like the things that happened to me were horrible. We're talking about the extreme here, so we're not talking about posting pictures of the kids online. We're talking about the extreme of that.
00:24:23
Speaker 1: Particular case over sharing.
00:24:25
Speaker 2: And you think about the case that we're talking about, the one here in Australia, the child that's involved there in twenty thirty years time, will be the person that we're talking about. Yeah, and their life and struggles have been shared for eighteen months and probably in real life the next three years is likely to be talked about because of courkcases and the ongoing saga that is this particular case.
00:24:59
Speaker 3: And I again I'm talking like you say, you might get some backlash. I've got friends who are in They're some of my best friends, and we have conversations about this and they know I guess how I feel about it. But again, like I think it's just an important conversation to have again without shaming anyone more about just going hey, it's okay to change your mind and maybe we should discuss.
00:25:22
Speaker 2: Like any conversation. Yeah, it might help you think about something differently.
00:25:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely and.
00:25:29
Speaker 2: Make you second guess the next time you go to post to be true of your kid? How would I feel hmmm if I was my child?
00:25:36
Speaker 1: Yeah?
00:25:37
Speaker 3: And can I make money without using them? Would I be making the same money without them? And like, I'd love to know people's thoughts as well.
00:25:45
Speaker 4: I think we'll get them.
00:25:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think whether we ask.
00:25:48
Speaker 5: Them or.
00:25:51
Speaker 4: We'll get them.
00:25:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, Because as you said, and it's kind of like the show adolescence. At the end, it wasn't uh, these are all the answers, and you know, this is what we have to do. When we've got all the answers right there. It was a completely open ended question when this is what happening, what do we do about it? And I think this is that same case. This is what's happening, what do we do about it?
00:26:13
Speaker 2: Our next episode is A Q and A and where you get to that's my daughter still calling me, So something really BIG's happening. Yeah, yeah, probably Billie Artis just dropped that album or something I would say. But we do have the opportunity for still a few people to come on for that Q and A. The links in the show notes if you want to join it. It closes off tonight, that is Tuesday night, anight, and we'll be back next Tuesday with A Q and A on poison see that see later. Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story. Independent storytelling that shapes the world is what Pod Shape really cares about. Right now, there's thousands of people listening to this show and our other true Crimes, and they're completely engaged. More than ten million Australians listen to podcasts each week. If you've ever thought about advertising your business in a podcast, there's a link to reach out in the show notes, or head to podshape dot com to book a free call.
