Trusting God Through Occupational Uncertainty - Matt Heisler | Pivot Or Die Ep 002

A lot of times I think like very black and white even though the world is a sea of gray. >> That's a quote right there. The world is a sea of gray. >> Um like hey what do you think about like living somewhere else for a little bit? And she was like yeah definitely not. [laughter] Life is so long and so short and so like be in the balance of of both of those tensions. >> But I'm grateful that God had different plans. >> Be patient, man. like this is going to be this time is going to go by so quick and then before you know it you'll be in your next thing. >> Welcome back to the Pivot or Die podcast everybody. I am Seth Gaser. I'm your host and today I am joined by Matt Heisler. Um, Matt is a great friend of mine, but also just generally a really creative dude and um, a father and husband. And um, Matt in my mind, I've told you this before, but Matt is somebody that asks some of the best questions ever. It just really like probing questions. And so, right after this, we're actually gonna get to do his podcast, which is >> Yes. I'm very excited. I'm very excited to do this. and to have you do mine. >> It's I mean, we were talking about this to begin with. It was like, do you think we'll be able to do backtoback podcasts? And it's >> there's only one way to find out. >> There's only one way to find out, but it's also there's a limited amount of people that I think can do that, but you and I um I don't think we're going to have any problem talking. >> No. Yeah. If I could, I would love to make a living just talking to people all the time, which >> right, >> maybe that's a possibility. >> Maybe. Who knows? as it is. [clears throat] Do you have a do you have a name for your podcast yet? >> Um, the working title for it right now is called I Don't Know You. Uh, and it's sort of a nod to because the whole idea behind the conversations that I want to have are with people like yourself that are in some ways like way ahead of where I'm at and then also like that I resonate with >> on a really deep level around creativity and fatherhood and um just doing life with Jesus. And so the idea of like I don't know you is really like I don't know myself and so I want to like get to know myself better by talking to great people that can help inform uh kind of the questions that I'm asking in my age and stage in life. Um and so yeah, I've had a couple people on um and sort of just getting the the engine rolling. But I'm I'm stoked that you're >> willing to be on there. And yeah, one of our good friends, David, he needs to be on this. I just we literally just scheduled it like in a couple weeks I think >> he's I've talked with him and this other guy Kyle who he should also be on this as well but that's awesome. >> We should just trade >> we'll just [laughter] trade guest >> yeah that's kind of the idea behind the name and I don't know I think it'll stick um but yeah so >> that's awesome man. Um well I mean tell us a little bit like you know this first question is kind of like what's a over view of your story a little bit. I don't really know you, so >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. >> Right. But >> I know that's one of the challenges that I've had with the podcasting recording conversations in general is like most of the people that I'm talking to I know really well, but there's a certain level of context that I want to give to the conversation for people that don't know this person. So, it's like it's always weird when you jump into like a random conversation, but you're not like >> kind of setting the foundation for anything. It's like, who is this guy? I don't know >> anything about him. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, what what has kind of been, you know, starting at the beginning, it's like what what has your life kind of looked like to get to where you're at right now? >> Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay. How much time do you have? [laughter] >> We dude, we can go for as long as you want. >> Um, uh, yeah. Yeah, totally. We can. Um, so buckle in and uh and get ready. [laughter] >> Uh, yeah. So I I grew up in around here in Southern California. um and have lived here most of my entire life and u been been blessed to have an awesome family upbringing and raised by awesome uh Christian parents and kind of got to know the Lord earlier in life and uh yeah that kind of shaped a lot of how I have done life so far and um >> yeah so so didn't really like kind of venture out and understand more about the world until I was in college and post college but um yeah, had an awesome upbringing. Um was homeschooled and and um yeah, say what you will about that stereotype, but um it gave me I think a lot of advantages in life um that I otherwise wouldn't have had. Um, and I think set up a lot of the mindset for how I think about things in general where um, I think oftent times society will like put us into buckets of like, oh, well, this is the type of person that you are and this is how you should act in this way. Um, and I think something that I really am grateful for with my parents, particularly my mom, um, is kind of seeing that everybody is unique and diverse and has a different way of learning and and teaching. And I think that's part of the reason that you and I get along so well is like that's a huge >> part of the ethos of who you are as a person and how you literally make a living and all that kind of stuff is realizing that students are unique and >> um there's diverse kind of ways to teach them and you're trying to meet them in those different ways that they learn best and stuff. >> Yeah. And we were both homeschooled so that that helps. >> That helps a ton. Yes. I think you automatically speak >> uh a different language. >> [laughter] >> and you're like, "Oh, you're like a really cool homeschooler." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We should like totally hang out more. Right. But yeah, so basically grew up in southern Orange County and um was homeschooled growing up and uh yeah, from from there basically um kind of set up a lot of my worldview and and some kind of formative pieces of that were a worldview class that I had with this awesome teacher, professor. His name's Don Barkley, but um do you know Jake uh Hartson? Um he's an associate. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh I didn't realize this, but he took over. We didn't figure this out until last year, but um he took over for my old teacher, Don, who was the director of this organization called Search Ministries. >> Oh. >> Um and so like we just randomly were like, "Oh, what do you do for work?" And he was like, "Oh, I do I work for this company or this organization, Search, which is basically just like an evangelistic um apologetics training organization." And so um though they do more than that, but that's a oversimplification. But anyway, it was just like such a small world that >> um he was like Don was his boss and he was a guy that like taught me a lot about >> kind of how to think through life and think critically and stuff like that. >> Um but yeah, so because I was homeschooled and because I kind of had that upbringing, I had a lot of time to like mess around and be bored. Um, and that's something that I think like one of the lessons my dad has taught me is like >> um boredom like breeds creativity. Uh, and so to like have um plenty of boredom which is like that's so anothetical to like uh adulthood. >> I need to make like a little poster of that and put it in my >> Yeah. In my desk. >> Yeah. With all that free time that you [laughter] >> breeds creativity. >> Yeah. Um, I don't know if that was an original idea or anything, but it definitely stuck with me. Um, and as much as I wanted to be like playing video games and um, doing a lot of things to like make my time busier, um, I think my parents put some good healthy boundaries in place to be like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're going to like sit around and read or go outside and and figure that out." I think that's something that's so interesting about like our kids and what they're going to have to deal with in the the world that they're growing up in. Um but I think those principles are the same um across generations. But >> um anyway, that that sort of mindset uh created a lot of interesting opportunity especially paired with homeschooling that allowed me to kind of like because I've never been an amazing student. I've always loved learning, but it's not been something that I >> wanted to do like academically, per se. >> Um, like I I just I learn in a very audio and visual way, >> which is why I think I gravitated towards the type of >> skill sets that I've I've built over the years. But um yeah, basically uh because of homeschooling and because of having lots of time um sort of cultivated the creative affinities that I have now with film and photo and um storytelling and and writing and stuff like that. So, um, yeah, I read like a ton when I was little and got super inspired by people like Lewis and Tolken and, >> um, started kind of writing my own fantastical worlds and, >> um, dealing dealing with all that kind of stuff and figuring out like story structure and, >> um, yeah, was even pushed like a lot to read that type of stuff even from like a super early age. And and so that I mean, I didn't understand like a ton of Lewis's work. Um but I mean it's so deep that you can just keep coming back to it again and again and again >> um and it has it has different lessons for each kind of stage of life I think. But >> um yeah so that that kind of um creativity was birthed through like having a lot of time because I would just finish my school super early because I was homeschooled. Um, and then I'd be able to go like ride my bike or go out in nature and go on hikes and get inspired by all that. And because I was like reading these stories of grand quests and adventures, but then I would like go in my backyard and go down the hill and and stuff like that kind of inspired a lot of the uh >> storytelling that that came out of that season. That was like the most productive time for writing for me. So >> really >> um >> from like what what ages do you feel like you were writing a lot? >> Um I really started in like fifth grade um what so like 10 11 something like that. >> Um and at that point I had stopped homeschooling and then gone to a private Christian school for a few years and that's where I I learned a lot of like the socialization type stuff because I just like thrived being around people and there were uniforms so you didn't have to think about like what you were going to wear. Um, which was like a huge blessing because I I like uh design and and clothing and stuff like that, but it was just like nice to not have to use your brain in that way. It was just like, yeah, you're going to wear the same thing every day. >> Um, and so I met some of >> that kind of socially, like I know that fashion and how you dress and everything within like a public school setting can be really like um, you know, the cool kids might dress a certain way and these kids over here. Did it feel like the there was like a little bit more of a level playing field socially because of that uniform? I >> That's an interesting idea. I don't know if I've thought about it a ton other than like uh it's pretty obvious to like see the types of clicks that form. >> Um and of course our school still had like clicks and stuff with the like super nerdy people and the it's just harder to see I think when when it's just like yeah, we're all wearing the exact same thing. Um, yeah, I think in a lot of ways it's pretty hard to um deal with stuff like that in a public school system, at least from my understanding, where it's just there's not there's some version of rules that they have to follow, but also like they will gify like trying to get around the rules as much as possible. >> Um, and and a lot of the incentives are to like look a certain way or dress a certain way. So, I don't know. It just depends on the end goal of like why you're at school versus why the kids think they're at school. >> Yeah. >> Um but yeah, that was a huge like unlock I think for me was just like being around more people um and going to this private Christian school. Um, and and we studied a ton of great books like Socrates and Plato and Aristotle and and a lot of those like kind of deep philosophers and think thinkers and stuff. And so shaped a lot of the way that I started thinking about things and then ended up going back to homeschooling throughout high school. Um, and that kind of unlocked the ability to uh start doing college classes earlier and and get done with all of that sooner. enrollment, dude. >> Huh? >> Dual enrollment. >> Oh, yes. Yeah. That I think I mean I didn't understand the advantage of all that stuff when I was in it. I was just really pissed that I wasn't going to like high school with my friends and stuff, but >> um I think it ended up being like such an amazing thing >> uh because it gave me a lot of the skills that I have now to I mean I'm still trying to work on self-discipline and I think that'll just be a lifelong skill that I'm con consistently trying to relearn. But um the the little bits of self-discipline I have I think are due to a lot of the kind of autonomy that is created within a homeschool environment. um where there's guidelines and boundaries. But I think yeah, the the creativity that my parents allowed to be like, "Hey, as long as you get your school done and you're doing like a good job at this thing, then yeah, you can like go to the beach with your friends or you can >> go uh bike riding or go swimming or um work on this film thing." So yeah, that was really when like film became uh I guess I have to go back a tiny bit, but that was really like a big piece of um the creative like creativity unlock was like understanding like film was a thing. Yeah. >> Um because I grew up like watching film and loving it. Um but it wasn't until like watching like the born identity and and like the Lord of the Rings and stuff and seeing the behind the scenes for both of those movies. There's like I think it's like a 40hour documentary on the making of Lord of the Rings. And that like >> really inspired me like a ton. I was like, "Oh my gosh, like this sounds amazing. I really want to get into this." >> Uh and so that was like back in fifth grade when I met some of my best friends that I still am best friends with. Um the Bone Cutters. >> Um yeah, >> their last name is Bone Cutter. >> I know. Yeah. >> No way. >> Yeah. No, legit. Um, yeah. It's like if I'm ever if they're ever famous, I'm just going to ride the coattails of like, oh, like that's the bone cutters friend that that did their [laughter] but like they're going to be famous before me because their last name is Bone Cutter. So, >> that's so awesome. >> Um, but we kind of all kind of discovered film together and um my buddy Blake is is a animator and and director and like showrunner um and loves doing that kind of stuff. So, it's it's cool to see kind of we all started from like doing home home movies and stuff. We really wanted to make like a spy movie. So, we basically just tried to copy um the Born Identity as much as possible, [laughter] >> but it's like with a bunch of 10-year-old kids. >> Um and we couldn't think of a name for it, so we just called it Nameless. >> Um super original. Uh but yeah, we ended up making a couple of those. Yeah, [laughter] that's again, yeah, just the ingenuity of like, oh, we need a name on this documentary or whatever. >> That's giving us too much credit. We didn't really write much of a script. It was more like, man, what kind of scene do we want to have? Okay, let's let's see this or whatever. But um yeah, that was sort of how I I got into film and then realized like, oh, I could like make money doing this by >> um uh taking pictures of people or doing weddings or whatever. So I did that for a really long time. But >> um yeah, so I think those are kind of the formative years and then um ended up going to Biola and and uh >> um meeting meeting my wife Shelby there and Biola. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, we were a part of the same like church group um kind of in high school, but we never met um >> really, >> which was a very good thing. I was not the type of person that was uh ready to to be in a relationship at that point as much as I thought I was. Um and so ended up, yeah, meeting through her roommate who I was really good friends with uh in high school. Um, and then, uh, yeah, we we had Disneyland passes because that's what everybody did at Biola. And so, super fun. We exchanged Snapchats because that's what everybody did back then. >> Um, are people still on Snapchat? >> I you you hang out with all these students, man. Like, you should know. >> No, you know, I I honestly feel like it's kind of like Tik Tok and Instagram have just taken over. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, nobody's on Snapchat. Snapchat is like I feel like it's gotten gnarier and gnarier. >> It's just like only fans basically >> stick assess pull at this point. [laughter] That's that's >> good to know. >> I I actually it is odd fact but I just never had uh Snapchat ever. Okay. And so >> I think you dodged the bullet. >> I think that there >> Yeah, I'm grateful for that. >> I don't think there's much good that came from that. >> Um although that was like the main way that we communicated when we started. I had this weird rule where I would like only Snapchat her or only text her and whatever she did for the first time that day then like I wouldn't respond to the other thing. I don't know what I was thinking. It was like oh try not >> the rules and the strategies we make up when we're dating [laughter] >> when you're dating when you're like basically fresh out of high school. Um but yeah, so we we got to know each other in college and obviously that was a very formative time for me. Um learning about kind of the the world at large and understanding that >> um >> yeah, it's much bigger than like South Orange County. Yeah. Um, and growing up, I think the way that I did, uh, my parents did a pretty good job of telling me like about the challenges and troubles of the world and, >> um, kind of our role in and having privilege and, >> um, how how responsible we were in some ways for, um, being light, uh, to the people around us and and helping people. But um yeah, I didn't really start understanding that more until college because you just have u access to a wider uh range of people and and diverse group. And so um and Biola did a really cool job of of kind of building in a lot of um opportunities for us to kind of see what the rest of the world was like. >> Um because there were it was an international school. There were lots of people from different places. >> Did you ever get to are are saying that there were a lot of different people from different places that came to Biola. Or did you ever get to go and study abroad? >> Yeah. Yeah. I never studied abroad, which was always something in the back of my head that I wanted to do. Um but for whatever reason, it didn't work out. I mean, it ended up working out later. Um but uh in college I was here um and I was really um working on cuz so I went to our junior college for the first two years of college and kind of finished up all my genad stuff >> um because Biola is expensive. >> Yes. >> And so um wanted to spend the least amount of money that I had to getting like a degree there. And so, um, by this point I was doing like weddings pretty consistently and like that's how I was, >> um, I I was making the most money from that, but then I had also been working for Apple for a couple years. >> Um, and before going to Biola, ended up uh, ending my time there so I could focus on Biola full-time. So, I was like the guy in the front of the store greeting you and and selling you your iPhone and all that kind of stuff. Dude, I I always growing up that was like my dream job was working at Apple. >> I can like I mean you would still do amaz like you're you're the perfect profile for for an Apple an Apple guy. That's [laughter] funny. >> I really like I when I was like 12, I think my parents let me go to the mall and I walked into the Apple store and asked for a job >> and the dude was like, "I can't hire you yet, but come back when you're 16 and I'll give you a job." >> Nice. And if it wasn't for the fact that I started teaching out of the garage how to play drums when I was like 14, >> um I would have gone and I I mean I could see a life path where I'm still working at Apple. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Going all the way deep into that. >> Totally. >> Um but I'm grateful that God had different plans. >> Yeah. Well, it definitely was an education. um getting to to train and learn kind of all I mean they system and and process everything that's not a word but um you you learn so much from kind of the collective knowledge that they've built over the last >> however many decades but um yeah taught me a lot about kind of leadership and and teamwork and how to um how to have rapport and bedside manner and I think everybody should do some version of like a hospitality job or a retail job. >> Um just because like you you get forcefed um all kinds of different people and um you have to be respectful and you have to listen and you have to ask good questions and stuff like that. So I think uh um it's it's obviously a big compliment to hear you say that I ask great questions, but I think a lot of that formation happened um from from my time at Apple and Wow. um uh enjoying enjoying a lot of that. So >> yeah, >> um >> I feel like that's a high compliment to to their company structure, how they >> treat. Yeah, I think it's changed a lot um since I was there. Um and so I think it's a little more uh corpory feeling and a little more like um selling units >> more. Um, and again, I have a few friends that are still working there in in retail and the corporate side, but um, yeah, I think it's different now than it was back then, but uh, at least my experience was like almost all positive. Um, and and of course you can find the drama wherever you you want, but that was never something that was uh, appealing to me to to be in those types of groups. And so kind of being heads down and and learning as much as possible and then realizing I wasn't going to be there that long. Um so trying to make the most of the opportunity. But >> yeah, so I ended there, went to Biola and then um kind of during the formation of Biola and doing cinematography was kind of my emphasis in production for film. >> Um were you studying film at Biola? >> Yeah. Yeah. Through their CMA program, um cinema media arts program that uh Yeah. and how they're So, when I went to tour Biola, random side note, they um they basically like shared this vision of this brand new building and this huge sound stage and all this stuff. >> And uh like a decade after I >> um like finished school, they're just now breaking ground on that really >> vision, which was like they said they were going to start it like the next year and I was like, "Oh, that'll be amazing. Like I'll have access to this stuff." It's like [laughter] they haven't even like finished uh building it and stuff. So hopefully when it's done I can go check it out and stuff which will be cool. But >> yeah, I think that was only enabled by like the founder of In-N-Out or whatever. She gave like the biggest >> um donation that Biola's like ever seen or something. It was like tens of millions of dollars or something. So yeah, whoever whoever bagged that connection is >> seriously >> they're doing a good job on the donor development front. >> Um but yeah, so uh that that was kind of Biola. And then during that time, one of my buddies that I met at Apple, he um this Australian dude that came over from Australia and met this girl and then they got married. Um he got his green card so he could stay in the US. um he started working for this antihuman trafficking organization >> um called A21 uh and so not A24 not to be confused with A24 my brother whenever he's talking to me he's like so when you were working for A24 I was like no I did not help on [laughter] the lobster >> oh that's great >> um so A21 uh which stands for like the abolitionists of the 21st century Well, >> um that that was a really interesting informative experience doing like uh video editing and and some marketing stuff for them. Um >> and that was kind of during my time at um at Biola. And so that's when I started kind of getting more of like the global awareness of like, oh man, there's so many big problems in the world. Yeah. Um, and then really like uh kind of reconciling that with the hope and redemption of like, oh, Jesus's work in our lives and and how he's working actively through us to like share his redemption story through um these these girls being taken out of like sex trafficking or these guys being taken out of sex trafficking or labor trafficking >> um and seeing like redemption in that. And so it was really cool to kind of be a part of that team. I mean, everybody was from a different country and and so really started getting more of a fever for like, oh man, I got to see some of the world. I think there's >> so much that I'm like missing out on in this like OC bubble that I've been a part of. >> Kind of expanded your horizons a little, right? >> And so, um, Shelby and I had been dating for a couple years at this point. And so, I kind of started floating the idea. She's like a >> one of the most brilliant people that I know and like a very slow mover. She just like thinks about things for a long time before >> having a response, which is like such a great way to >> uh it's like chewing on something for a while and then you just get like >> all of the um juice out of like a piece of uh >> food that you're eating or whatever. That's a bad analogy, but >> No, I I mean you're savoring it versus like >> where I think maybe we might be similar in the way a little bit of it's like sometimes it can feel like >> I would like to wolf it down [laughter] >> to go. Right. >> Yeah. And so kind of and we were serious at this point and talking about marriage and stuff and I was like, "Hey, what do you think about like living somewhere else for a little bit?" >> Um like somewhere else in the world. Um and she was like, "Yeah, definitely not." [laughter] Um like, uh my parents are here and she's an only child and so she wanted to be around them, which I I totally understand. So, um, anyway, that was like probably a few years into dating and, uh, um, finishing up college and kind of figuring out like, okay, now I really like want to marry this girl. I need to figure out what I'm going to do. >> Um, and so a lot of that was just like I could either um, like go up to LA and try to do like the um, kind of film stuff. uh or which is basically just like working 14 to 16 hours a day and then like networking with people at like bars until like two and then like driving home, sleeping for a couple hours and then doing that all over again. >> Um or like uh go back down to OC and like figure out how to find some sort of job that allows me to like have some stability but also um allows me to be close to family and and to marry Shelby and stuff like that. So, um, yeah, ended up figuring that out, which was awesome. Uh, and then through kind of a very much a God thing, like all of the jobs that I've had, um, ended up working for the company that I had like fantasized about working at um, when I was like starting to do film back in like fifth grade, which is this company called Red. >> Um, >> you worked for Red? >> Yeah. >> I didn't know that, dude. That's insane. >> I'm glad that we're discovering new things. Um, but yeah. So, anyway, >> this is why I love doing this because I literally I >> it's just something that asking the question, give me a broad overview of your whole life story. It's just like we rarely get to do this. Yeah. >> As friends and sit down and have this conversation. So, okay, you're working at Red. What did you start to do for them? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I to your point, I completely agree. like there's so much beauty in like scheduling time to like have this sort of because we wouldn't be talking about this. We'd be talking about like whatever idea we're both excited about. >> Um and so I'm I'm grateful for for uh because we're going to do the same thing with you in in a little bit. [laughter] >> Um but uh yeah, so anyway, um ended up uh starting to work at Red on their technical um support team and their um kind of like beta beta testing team. So, um, learning basically technically how all the cameras worked. Um, and then doing phones and emails, uh, to make sure that DPS that were on set, uh, were like getting the support that they needed for our cameras. And then, um, in kind of the off time when I wasn't doing that, it was like beta testing the new cameras that were not out yet. >> What a what a that is, like you said, the absolute dream job for a kid that's into film, right? Yeah. >> Going, well, hey, >> potentially like some of the best >> cinematography cameras. >> Totally. >> Um, here's the newest one that's not out yet. Can you go test it? Totally. See what that was >> like. Yeah. So, it was awesome to be a part of like the beta testing team for >> um the camera that was coming out at the time was called the Komodo, which was like kind of a proumericed um 6K camera. Um, and there wasn't really anything like it at the time. And so it was really cool to kind of be on the the bleeding edge of of getting to test out like bugs and stuff like that, but um yeah, I got to use kind of my >> technical support that I had done with Apple and and push that into this experience. phone calls and emails were like never my favorite, but um I'd much rather be like face to face with someone like um seeing their nonverbal cues and and all of that kind of stuff. But it really was an education and >> um like working under pressure and >> um yeah, like >> just some of the stories were wild where like these cameras are hundreds of thousands of dollars and some of the situations that people would put them in is just like >> why did you think that was a good idea? Like I just remember getting this call from this guy. He was on a boat, so like the connection was like not great. Um, and uh, I guess like the camera had fallen into the ocean. And at that point, it's less of a technical conversation. It's more of like, well, you should like make your peace with the fact that you just like destroyed this camera. Um, but he was thinking like the water was going to corrode the camera, like the salt water. And I was like, "Okay, well, you're not wrong, but like it's electrical and it's not waterproof, so you know, it's probably dead anyway." He was like, "It's not turning on." I was like, "Go figure." Uh, and so he was like, "Yeah, just like rice." >> Yeah. Yeah. But that's what he he didn't have a bowl of rice, so instead he was like, "I got to get this salt water off, otherwise it's going to corrode." So he dunked it like very thoroughly in like fresh water and I [laughter] was and he was like cook now what do I do and I was just like I mean sorry man like I don't think and of course you're like he every minute on a film set is like hundreds of thousands of dollars. Like you are just burning you're essentially just like throwing money into an incinerator. Um, that is like how film sets work. And so it was like the highest pressure situation possible. And it's like the thing that you were going to use to capture everything. You just like signed its death warrant by like putting it in a bunch of water. I just felt so bad for him. And then I was like at the end of the day that I was happy to not be face to face with. But [laughter] that was just like uh yeah, there were a lot of those types of stories. So >> um definitely learned a lot during that job. Um yeah, and then ended up uh basically needing to transition from that job because of the type of leadership that was there. And I've always been someone that has followed people and not like jobs in general. Um and so I'm always trying to like learn from people that I I want to learn from. And so, uh, the the president of that company, um, definitely like a interesting, tenacious, eccentric dude, but like so, at least from what I could tell, like so egotistical and selfish and like, >> um, very very much like living for himself and not for uh the people that he employed. Um, and uh, yeah, I just felt terrible like putting more money into someone's pocket like that. Um, and of course like he he's a brilliant dude on some level, but it's just like, man, I do not want to I don't want to be a leader and I don't want to be around leaders that are um leading that way. And so um >> what a what a testament to even your moral compass a little bit. Like >> there's a lot of people that might have that thought and then just shut up and put their head down and keep going. And it sounds like that's not what you chose to do. >> No. Yeah, I think [laughter] I ended up choosing the more uh challenging route in some ways, but more adventurous route for sure. Um, >> and so through again s such a god story basically was telling my friend David, who I mentioned a little bit ago, who it sounds like you guys are going to hear from, so I'm excited about that. >> Sure. um he he ended up uh reaching out to me and saying, "Hey, my brother-in-law has um this this company that he needs a project manager and it's a a kind of a software development startup. Um you don't have any experience in this, but you you I think you have what it takes to like do a good job here." Um, and uh, it was more than I was making before and Shelby had just been furoughed from her job because this was the beginning of COVID and um, we had a lot of expenses that we hadn't ever had before because we got married in 2020 and um, lived down in Sinclenny and had our first apartment which was like it was a dream but it was like more money than I had ever spent in my entire life at that point. And now I look back on those numbers and I'm like that's laughable. >> Yeah. Um it wasn't laughable but it was like man life just keeps getting more expensive. >> Um so anyway ended up working for this um kind of software development startup and doing project and product management and learning all that. Um and and got to work with some really awesome people um that I'm still close with today. But um yeah and I've had had other jobs since then. But um yeah, through kind of that experience and through the generosity and and kindness of my boss, >> this guy named John. Um you've met John, right? >> Yeah, >> John's great. >> Such an eccentric, wild, amazing human being. But yeah, he's he's a lot. >> I think the word that I just that comes to mind immediately is just like stoked. He's it feels like >> all the time like >> he's like what you picture a visionary being, but like that on steroids. um like so out there with some of the think thinking that he has but so like brilliant >> um and also just like such a a loving genuine person like I think >> um the things that I was like craving from leadership at Red are like what I got from John in in Capitol and so it's like such a um a blessing and answered prayer um to to be led by someone like that um and and learn about like what it looks like to care for your team almost to a fault whereas like oh you're like letting the business hurt because of the people that you're employing. >> Um and so finding the tension in that where it's like how do you run a successful business but also like >> um pour into people in a way that allows them to grow and thrive and and be a part of that. But >> one of his extremely generous uh >> things that he allowed to happen was uh Shelby finally made up her mind of living somewhere else for a little bit. [laughter] And so um yeah, I got to uh move to Europe with her for about a year and travel all around and see more of the world and experience different cultures and peoples and foods. And um that was extremely eye opening to understand just how other people around the world do life and and so I'm super grateful that I was working during that time for this um this software development startup and >> um yeah that John allowed me to contribute in that way and >> um kind of work between our time zones and stuff with our India team and >> um stuff like that. So super incredible experience. You could just because I've heard the story a little bit too, but you ended up um you ended up like videoing all of that, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Whole journey throughout Europe. >> Yeah. I think that was like something that we had talked about a lot. Um just because I'm like a chronic journaler. >> Um and and really like as cheesy and cringe as it might sound like believe in the power of of journaling. Um I think like most of our lives we forget if we don't like write stuff down. >> Um and so like writing all the people that I respect the most throughout history and like in my own life um are like chronic writers that like they they wrestle through the challenge of writing and now there's so many tools to like do that very easily which is awesome like dictation and um like recording and and all that kind of stuff. I mean, that's part of the reason that I wanted to do a podcast is just to like record these conversations that Yeah. >> I wanted I like I have anyway. >> Yeah. >> Um >> but you want to have something where you can remember that. >> Yeah. And so um kind of the thought behind doing like a YouTube channel was really like to be able to look back when we're old or >> uh heaven forbid I have dementia or something and be like, "Oh, that guy that that's an interesting guy. He lived an interesting life." Um, and be able to kind of look back and and be like, "Oh, I forgot about that like little moment." >> Yeah. >> That I had with that guy in Greece or whatever. Um, >> so cool, dude. >> Yeah. And so, >> what what's that what's that channel called? >> It's just called Matt and Shelby. >> Um, yeah. And it's kind of just uh we literally only did it for like our travels and then we did a couple other videos and uh and then called it quits. But >> um yeah, I I I think about like getting back into that at some point. Um, >> go check it out. Matt Shelby. >> Yeah, it's the the first videos are rough because you're just like >> That's great. That's part of the process. >> Yeah, you're just practicing. Um, but we got we got better towards the end. Um, but that was super fun to kind of have uh have this external pressure to like do interesting things so that we could like capture them. Um, but then also just capture whatever happened really. Um, and so we ended up going to about 20 different countries and seeing all kinds of different things and um, getting to document all that throughout that uh, time, which was really cool. And then >> coming back home and kind of being like, okay, well, what are we doing now? Right. >> Um, >> and then kind of the next big adventure of starting a family and >> um, kind of going through our first uh, miscarriage and and the challenge of that and learning through that. Um yeah, it's crazy how many people experience that and then >> um sort of how alone you feel in some ways when like you're like man nobody else knows how it's like no but I think it's like >> one in every I forget the exact statistic but one in every four >> it's crazy how many people go through that so um I don't know I I think like part of me is like I don't want to share it but then also >> part of me is like oh I think it's just like important to put it out there because like the more people do the more there's less taboo around it and of course it's challenging or whatever but um but then ended up getting pregnant again and now we have our daughter Verena and >> um yeah she's amazing she'll be two in in a little bit and >> we have another daughter on the way which is crazy. >> Yeah. >> Um so I think I've just uh succumbed to the idea of being a girl dad >> dude. Um, like we're gonna try to have more kids and we'll see what that journey is like, but I think I'm just destined to only have girls. >> That is a very long- winded answer, I think, to your question. >> Yeah. I mean, thank you for going into into all that detail. And I mean, even even going into the the next question talking about kind of our our pivot or die question. what's a big pivot in your life that's happened, a big moment of change, whether that be um vocationally or whether that be relationally or religiously or all those kind of things. But I mean, it just it sounds like occupationally you've had all these different twists and turns. >> Yeah. >> Right. And um I mean I'm I'm just curious when when I asked that question. I know he sent me this this question yesterday too, but I mean >> um what's kind of that big is there a big pivot moment or a defining season of hardship or adversity that um you kind of experience that that you can share with us? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, hardship specifically or um like a defining moment that maybe felt more natural to to pivot. Um, however I interpret that. >> I think however [laughter] you interpret it. There's I mean a couple of the guys that have been on the podcast already, one is a an athlete who literally went through a crazy injury on both >> legs and um that's Cody Flom. was on a little while ago and um another guy talked about um a crazy family situation that ended up happening with with them. And so um I think just you know if there's something that comes to mind even I mean I I know that you shared a little bit a second ago but >> um that whole concept of of there's certain things like a miscarriage that it's like we don't want to talk about it. It's really tough. But um on this podcast and kind of the reason for this podcast is because we all go through really hard things. We all go through moments where >> it's it's a kind of a defining moment that's like I can either choose to pivot or I can and figure it out in the face of this thing or I can lay down in the ball and die and that is a conscious choice that I have to make. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. Well and I think a lot of times you don't think that it's a choice in the moment. You're just like there's no other option. I have to do this thing or whatever. Um, the stuff that comes to mind I think is around vocation mostly because I don't know uh for for lack of a better way of saying it. I I have like a very binary mindset where it's like >> um a lot of times I think like very black and white even though the world is a sea of gray um and it's nuanced and complex. >> That's a that's a quote right there. The world is a sea of gray. Um, [laughter] well, and I I think I want it to be more black and white, but realize that it's not. Um, and there's a lot of like beauty in the fact that it's there's a lot of ambiguity and room for interpretation and stuff like that. But I think a lot of the biggest kind of inflection points in my life have been around they've kind of been um around vocation um because of like >> that's how I whether it's because of my kind of entrepreneurial brain and how that works. It's like so much of my time is thinking about like the next project or the next thing >> um from a from a vocation standpoint. And so I think about that as kind of like a lot of the main um kind of pivot moments of of thinking like at the end of college and before um marrying Shelby is like the main goal was like figuring out how to marry Shelby and spend the rest of my life with this person. >> Um >> and so it was like oh I I see like a path to be successful in the film industry in the film world. Um and that's something that I've really wanted for a really long time. Um, but this other thing is like going to be much harder to achieve if I'm like trying to do both. Um, and I always think about like the movie and there's so many good movies about this like Singing in the Rain and La La Land and um where it is like really the tension of ambition uh like job vocation ambition and like the dreams that you want to pursue and then like the tension of doing that with a person that you you love and like giving up a lot to >> sacrifice for the relationship and stuff like that. And so oftentimes the the analogies or metaphors or things that I think about are films because that's just like so much of my >> framework and and thinking and education. But um yeah, particularly with that pivot, I think it was just like, oh, what's the main goal? Oh, it's to spend the rest of my life with this person. How do I do that the most successfully? Well, I give up this this dream and this idea of like trying to be Stephen Spielberg. >> Um which I mean there's one of him. Uh so statistically it was going to be a really hard job to do anyway. Um, and then like the fact that he uh at least from my understanding, he's a challenged father, like because he's as amazing and director as he is, he's like made a lot of sacrifices as like a parent and as a spouse and um is that the type of decision-m that I want to like do and think through? Um, and then [clears throat] ultimately coming to the conclusion like, oh, actually, I don't think that's like the best way to live. I think it's living in community and in relationship and um having enough margin to be intentional in my marriage and um stuff like that where yeah I might not have the type of relationship that I have with my family if I was >> gone six months or nine months of a year on a production and and stuff like that. having to having to choose between the the dream of what success looks like right there versus what a relationally and emotionally healthy life looks like. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and the like added blessings and benefits that come along with like choosing the path that I did >> where like I got to explore the world with my person for almost a year. And as like a weird byproduct of that, we got to like do film together. And she learned like >> how to edit a video and how to publish and how to post on social media and how to like these things that we were learning together. um that have actually like made our relationship stronger. But of course, you can't you don't know that when you make a decision five years before to >> to to jump into the path like that. I think I mean I I don't understand how people >> do life without relationship with Jesus in that respect where I mean that's a huge pivot I think too. um understanding because growing up Christian I mean like there's an inflection point of like are you gonna make your faith of your parents like your own or are you going to just like pretend to be a Christian until >> you're not under their roof basically. >> Um >> did you have like a defining moment for your >> Yeah, I I think for me it was um it was the summer of 2010. Um our so we we both went to the same church different campuses but the same church once upon a time compass Bible Church. >> Yeah. >> Um which I think was formative in a lot of ways. Um but uh yeah the the the church camp the summer camp that they did um in 2010 I was in 8th grade something like that. >> Um and so uh that was basically the whole theme was theophobia. So the fear of God. Um, and that week was really just like uh I I think the the pivot point for me in changing kind of, >> oh man, like I've been living for myself and I've kind of been using the guise of, oh, this is my parents' faith. um and starting to >> have that heart change of like, well, this is something that I want to adopt for myself and >> um start to live this way because um I want relationship with Jesus and I want uh the things that come from that uh like life with him. Um and so >> yeah, I think that was a big pivot point too. And um >> when >> when you say life with him, >> what do you what do you kind of mean by that maybe for those that aren't aren't familiar with Christian lingo? Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um well, I mean, I think we can break it down to like the gospel and what that is, which is like Jesus uh dying for us so that we can have relationship with him >> um on the cross. And then of course a big piece of that repentance is like believing that he died and and rose again physically um like after three days of being dead and had like I think over 500 confirmed witnesses that were like yeah yeah he was definitely dead and now he's alive. Um and and kind of like you can dive into the history of that. Actually right before I was coming over here I was listening to you know who Wes Huff is? Yeah, >> he was on. Um, >> dude, having him on at some point would be so cool. >> You must make that happen. If anybody can make that happen, it's you. I I guarantee that to be the case. Um, but he was just on >> W. I'm coming for you. [laughter] >> Let's just get a social clip of of us talking about how much we love Wes Huff. >> Um, he he was just on Diary of a CEO. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> and so I've been listening to that and it's so cool. like he is a theologian and a historian and so like uh so much of I think the reason that I am am a Jesus follower is is like based in the reason >> and the logic and history of like all the evidence around that because I'm a very >> um I don't know I I I want to believe things but if there's not sufficient evidence for it then it's it's hard to wrap my head around that kind of stuff. Um, I think I've become less so like that the longer that I just see how Jesus works in like all parts of the world and in crazy ways that are just hard to explain. Um, uh, where was I going with this? >> No, I mean, I think that, um, you were talking about kind of that that pivot moment that you had up up at what it sounds like at camp. uh where you were kind of like I'm gonna decide to to follow Jesus and then talking about kind of what life is like with him and so yes that you've reasoned through >> this choice of faith that you've made. >> Yeah. >> Um but I mean how does that kind of >> when you look at the story of your life that you just told us? I mean what is that what has that been like living with God kind of thing? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I think like one of the biggest um I just heard a great analogy from this this painter that we know. You should have him on too. Hi, >> it's a plan. Hi, [laughter] more man. >> Um what a weird unique eccentric awesome dude. Um anyway, uh he has this great analogy and and I like his analogy, so I I'll steal it, but it's basically like you're on a rowboat um and uh you're rowing forward, but you can't see what is um ahead of you. Um, but you're rowing forward so you can see what's behind you. Um, and in kind of the rear view mirror as it were. Um, and I think that's like one of the beautiful things about um, doing life with with Jesus and being in intentional intimate relationship with him is that um, you see all these dots connect that you thought were disperate and kind of disconnected and and very like arbitrary. >> Um, and you start realizing how connected everything is. Um, even just the fact that like uh the only reason I got the job at Apple was because like I knew the manager there because my brother worked there and and so like I would intentionally I'd be active in this. I'd go into the store and see my brother Andrew and then I'd also like make it a point to see Matt McDonald. Um, I have no idea where he's at in life, but um, I was really grateful for the fact that like he hung out, like he was available to me as like a a 17-year-old. Um, and was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, great. Like, let's talk when when you uh come of age or whatever." Um, and then like the only reason that I got the job at A21 was because I met my buddy Josh who was working with me at Apple and uh we and I think like a lot of people can like chalk that up to coincidence or strategy or something, but there's no world there's no version of me being smart enough >> um to like connect all those dots myself and and make them happen. Um, like it's clearly only able to happen with with Jesus and with God, I think, because it's just it's too weird a story to like make up for myself. >> Um, where it's like because of my relationship with Josh, this like random Aussie that I like sort of got to know at Apple, like he reached back out to me and was like, "Hey man, like I know that you're really good at film and photo. Like would you want to come work at this organization with me?" Mhm. >> Um and then yeah, because of my experience at A21, I like got reached out to by a recruiter at Red. Um which I think is like that's that's kind of the craziest God moment to me is like >> yeah, there's no version of me like connecting those dots at all. >> Um where she basically was like, oh my gosh, I give to A21. I love their mission and you like are very uniquely >> uh your skill set is uniquely the right thing for what we need in kind of this customer service slashtechnical role because you've had this role at Apple before but then you also like I can see your character through the work that you've done at A21 or whatever and it's like >> dude I never could have [laughter] ever hoped of getting a dream job at this company that I had fantasized about working with without like um I don't know giving that up to God and being like you know what like it's okay if I never see this or never get this. Um but yeah and then same thing with with uh this job that I got at this development firm Capital whereas like it's only because of the relationship I had with David who I like met when I was in grade school because we went to the same um homeschool group and like it's all connected. And so looking in the rearview mirror as I continue to row um you can just see like oh wow this is all intentional. there's a design to to all of this. >> Um, as chaotic and kind of all over the place as it seems, it's it's not random. It's it's intentional in designs. And I think that's part of the the biggest reason that I I continue to want to do life with Jesus is because like he has a design and a plan for where I'm going. And yeah, even in this season where um I just recently transitioned out of the job that I had before >> this um like a sales and powder coating like development manager, which is like so different than anything else I've done. >> Um >> like now I'm exploring what's next for Matt's vocation. um and trying to remind myself of like all the way that that God has been faithful >> up until now and realizing, >> oh, like it's going to be totally fine and I actually just don't even need to stress like let me use this time of unemployment to like >> live into it as much as possible and be present rather than like >> gripping the steering wheel so hard in a world that I don't have control in anyway. >> Um, >> so I don't know. I think just uh I don't know if that answers your question, but I think just uh there's a piece that comes with with being in relationship with him. Um and a knowledge that like he's going to take you through the really challenging things in life like the uh getting let go from your job or going through a miscarriage or um figuring out how to get your first job when you want to marry that girl really badly. [laughter] Um, and and like the patience piece of that too is is so uh important and that's like a lifelong lesson I'm going to continue to learn. That's probably one of the hardest things for me to to work through is just like I want the next thing now. >> Um I'm impatient for that. And so I think >> that's something that he's going to continue to to work on me with. But >> yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's amazing, man. Thank you for being so um so vulnerable and and putting it all out there. >> You make it easy, man. >> I tell you anything. [laughter] >> Um I I mean I think that you I mean you kind of already answered the our third question that we normally ask too which is like how do you through these these pivot moments um through these moments of of change or adversity of these different things like how do you get through it? Um, are there like specific conversations or books or, you know, you said a quote that's helping you through it right now. I mean, are there other things along your journey of pivots that that you're like, "Oh, yeah, that book, that quote, that song, that conversation I had in a copy, >> all of the above." >> I mean, can what are some that come? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think like that's that I love this question because it's like practical. Um, and I feel like whenever I'm in a season of like what do I do next, having practical like stepby-step advice is is super helpful. Um, and I find myself in a season that like is exactly I need to lean on those things in order to like get to the next thing. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> and so for me, uh, obviously one of the books is the Bible. um and uh the just timeless amount of wisdom and history in that uh and being in that every every day and uh being disciplined about that. Another thing I really lean on is like I will try and go through journals. I use this um journaling app called Day One. >> Um which one of my favorite features about it and I think it's like 35 bucks a year. It's like the best money I've ever spent in my entire life really. um other than like maybe the ring for for Shelby. Um [laughter] uh but uh that there's this one feature that like um basically shows you all of the journal entries from uh the past in the day that you wrote them. Um so every day I can look back and see like oh this is what I was writing last year and two years ago and five years ago and 10 years ago. Um, and so it's a really cool way like that's part of my kind of morning ritual is to like see what was I thinking about a year ago or three year and there's so many my mind is so cyclical and and it's so interesting to kind of see like oh man I'm still like processing so many of the same ideas again and again and again. What were I mean you don't have to answer this question too but it's like when when you looked today I mean what were the things that >> a couple years ago today you were thinking about >> yeah let me check >> that's such a that's such an interesting question to be able to ask that you can now pull up this this app and answer >> day one not a sponsor [laughter] but >> I really want them to be a sponsor um yeah today a year ago Um, so basically what's interesting is and I guess I have to give a little more context like the the job that I just uh got let go from uh was about to start like a year ago basically. >> Um, and really the idea behind that was going to be like me and a couple buddies were going to start and try and build an experiment really like uh building an an agency like a marketing branding agency for like the built world industries. And so, um, I was basically just talking about like how unmotivated I felt on this day a year ago because I had like done all the work to build the proposal to talk to the, um, kind of our investor that we were going to work with. >> Um, and I was just like waiting and again the theme of like patience comes up where it's like I'm just not a patient person. So, it was like it's a good reminder. >> Um, and then uh, let's see. I went I was so bored and uh tired of being patient that I went on a eight mile run. Um [laughter] >> and this was like as I was ramping up to to to do another half marathon. But um and then yeah went on a double date with our our buddies Olivia and Levi and Grace and Joey at Rubies and Lagona. Um, so that was >> I mean I'm just I'm just so curious as somebody that truly for me um I don't journal. >> Yeah. >> My journal is actually my um voice memos app. >> Yes. And so you do journal. >> It's all of the songs that I've written. >> Yeah. Um >> well and you can probably go back to those songs and think about like exactly what like either explicitly in the lyrics or like almost like uh one of the prompts today for journaling and I won't do a lot of them but I like this one um was like what's what are specific smells that remind you of certain memories and stuff like that but I I almost feel like that's what music is for me where like it takes me back to a place and a time and a very specific moment or instance. Um, have you found that to be the case when you when you're writing music? >> Oh, I mean, for sure. One of the things that I do is when I'm on a plane, um, most of the time I on my phone, I have it set, and I I haven't changed this. I probably should, but I have it set to basically it just autonames each new recording um from the location where I'm at. >> Yeah. So, it'll say um you know, Westminster Boulevard uh 500. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> It's I've recorded here 500, right? And it's this whole thing. >> And um it I I'll have them totally untitled so it doesn't tell me anything about what the song is about, anything about what it is. >> But on a plane, I'll pop in an AirPod and I'll just go down each one of the different things and I'll name them >> on that plane. >> Yeah. >> And it's just so interesting. Just like what you're talking about, right when I hear that first chord that's that's played, I so often can remember the words of the melody. Like, >> yeah, >> it it's it's a strange >> that's like the superpower of music, I think. Yeah. >> Um Yeah, I'm the same way with music where like >> I had no idea you played until just a second ago when we were walking in here and you sat down at the piano and just ripped the ballad. [laughter] Like unbelievable. >> Oh, I I love it. Like that's that's a way of processing for me too. And I I have the same thing in like the voice memos app where it's just like >> so many different feelings and memories through like the songs that I'll just write and and mess with. Um and I couldn't play them for you again ever. >> Um and that's like the beauty of recording it, I think. Um, but I think so much of it is is yeah, journaling and writing and and kind of thinking back on my experience. Um, yeah, books. I mean, I I'm trying to I'm like a recovering uh reader. I'm I'm like I read a ton growing up and then got super burnt out and then >> realized just like how incredibly powerful reading is. Uh it's like such an unlock to building your vocabulary and being able to think about deep ideas and uh like re writing is just going to be around forever. Like there's no version of the world existing with humans that like writing is not a thing. >> Um because it's like the the foundation of so much of um how we think about the world and and >> uh yeah process the world and all that kind of stuff. And I mean, before writing it was like the oral tradition, but like that's basically just writing and remembering everything. >> Um, but uh, yeah, trying to get back into that. I think like you you have it on your your shelf, but like Steel Like an Artist is like one of my favorite books. >> My gosh, Austin Cleon. >> Yes. I love the way that he'll also be on the podcast, dude. He totally sitting. He totally would be on the podcast, too. Um, yeah. I I I love the way that he thinks and the accessibility that he gives to you. Um >> and and he's a Christian, which I'm which is cool. >> Yeah, I think he's like a um uh it's not Presbyterian, he's some other sect of Christianity, but um >> yeah, I I found that out like a year and a half ago and I was like, "Oh, no wonder I like this guy so much." >> Wow. >> Um >> but uh yeah, so I mean, anything from him I'll just gobble up and read. Um I really like this author um what's his name? Cal Newport. >> Um he he wrote this book. I still haven't read this, but the I think the book he's most famous for is um uh deep work. >> Um but I'm reading this book called uh So Good They Can't Ignore You, which is basically just like building skills and how like u kind of following your passion sometimes is like not all that it's cracked up to be. um which I think is a really interesting book. Um, I think probably some of the most performative books for me that uh I'll read every year um are uh this book called Man Alive from GK Chessertton >> um basically like a novel about a guy um called Innocent Smith and he basically like goes around and uh it's basically like a court case and uh like a romance and a comedy and like an action movie allin one. >> Um but it's just >> Yeah. Yeah. Um >> and so it's it's brilliantly written and incredibly funny and uh super thoughtprovoking. >> Wow. >> Um but that's something I read every year because it's just like there's so many like little pathy nuggets that are just like oh my gosh. Like I got to remember I'll have to read that. Like if I could uh if I was better at memorizing I would just like memorize the book. Yeah. Um, so I read that every year and then, um, A Christmas Carol just because it's like so good. >> Yeah. >> Um, Dickens is the one of the best writers ever. But, >> um, yeah. And then music is such a huge piece of of the way that I process and think through things. And I'm a big soundtrack guy. So, >> um, anything from Johnny Williams is just the best. He's like, uh, he's the goat. >> What are I I'm not I'm not familiar. So, what what are some of the John Williams he's done? >> John Williams? You're not familiar with Charlie Williams? >> I'm honestly not a soundtrack dude. Okay. I'm like when I think soundtracks, I think like >> um uh the Black Panther [laughter] like 10%. >> Okay. So, anything anything from uh Ludwick Gorensson is what I'm hearing. >> Um uh so he's done like any Stephen Spielberg movie that you can think of. Okay. >> So that's like Jurassic Park and ET and Star Wars. Well, Lucas and um so yeah, I mean his and Harry Potter like um basically any big uh rememberable theme like he did the music for the Olympics and uh >> so I'm well acquainted with his work. >> Yeah, you are well acquainted with it whether you know it or not. That is a strike against you my good man. >> That is a strike against me. There we go. The comment section is about to >> Yeah, exactly. A music teacher of all people. Yeah. So I I mean he's he's amazing and I mean there's so many incredible musicians and uh singers and artists out there. I like a lot of like old >> um kind of like kuner >> um like uh Frank Sinatra >> type like uh Sammy Davis Jr. Yeah, >> exactly. Um if I was less um shy about singing then I I would also join you. Um, uh, yeah, and people like Oscar Peterson and and Jazz and and, uh, stuff like that. But, um, yeah, all those things are are, uh, >> the things I'm I I look to and kind of process with and and think through. Yeah. >> What would you say to maybe somebody that um is in a a season of pivot like you talked about where it's just an occupational thing where you're kind of like, man, I feel a little bit like what's next right now? >> Yeah. >> What would be um >> what would be your advice to that person? >> Um well, I'd probably ask them what they're doing. [laughter] Um because >> what are you doing? if you have any advice, I'm always looking for it. Um, >> I think one of the biggest things to me, uh, and this is just like kind of been my experience is I've never like especially if we're talking about vocation and stuff, I've never I have yet to apply to a job and get it. I've never gotten a job by applying to it >> really. Um uh and I think like one reason for that is just because there's nobody else to like um uh blame in that situation other than like Jesus looking out for me. And and I say blame in kind of a satirical way because it's like there's no way I would be where I am without >> like having to testify to the fact that like I couldn't do this on my own. I couldn't get these things without >> him him making these things happen. And and of course there's an active component to me doing that. But um yeah, I think like uh if you're finding yourself in a pivot, I think what's really hard is and I think about this uh from like the perspective of like I don't know, I'm a high school leader at my church and so often when like students come to me that have just like the a guy got broken up with with like a girl or whatever >> um they're like very alone >> um and they're directionless in a lot of ways And um the reason that they're like that is cuz they like weren't maintaining the community that they had while they were in the relationship. They were like so focused on the relationship that they like >> uh lost track of the fact that they had other friends. Um and then their other friends were like, "Well, cool. Like you clearly don't need us, so we're like not going to invest in you and stuff." Um, and I think about the same thing when when like you're in a pivot moment in your vocation or whatever that is, just like have you been doing a good job like reaching out to your community throughout the engagement of that job that you had or the relationship you were in? Um, it's much easier to go through life and I'm I'm like testing this to the max right now >> with like losing my job last week and then basically just reaching out to all of my friends that I've already been >> doing an okay job at like connecting with. >> Um, like it's so much easier to like go through life with great community around you. Um, and I mean I think that's just like a life lesson in general, but especially for pivoting is is just like having more people to know what's going on and at least be in your corner like cheering you on if not explicitly like, "Hey, I'm going to like connect you with this guy or whatever it is." >> Um, I think that's like such a huge piece of it. >> Um, and this is the thing that I'm telling myself the most right now. Um, and I need to hear from my community is like be patient, man. Like this is going to be this time is going to go by so quick and then before you know it, you'll be in your next thing. So like really utilize this time well and and don't like worry and stress about >> the possibilities of of you not figuring it out. Like life is so long and so short. And so like be in the balance of of both of those tensions and realize that like you have more margin than you think, but you also need to urgently like be active in the the moment that you're in. >> Yeah. >> Um >> yeah, even just thinking about like the next time I'm employed or whatever, like I'm gonna have less time with my daughter and and Shelby. And so it's like how do I like live into that now in a very practical way rather than um yeah rather than being like oh my gosh like I have to spend all of my time job searching and none of my time like going to the beach in a beautiful day to like I don't know I think it's just like the little practical moments like that. Um yeah it's great advice. Yeah, I think uh I could probably think of more, but that seems to be sufficient. I think that's that's super sufficient knowing that just to kind of repeat what I heard a little bit saying that in those in those moments of pivot where there's a there can be a tendency to like freak out um and when you don't know what's going on and you don't have this certainty in the moment that plugging back in if you've been disconnected to your community and you making the step to reach out to all of those people that you know, care about you. >> Yeah. >> Um to let them know what's going on and what you're processing through. Um I think like you you talked about earlier, writing, journaling through different things. Um playing music, listening to music, um and being being in community. Yeah. And um reading the wise words of men before, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and I think part of that is is like the people that you're around know you well enough hopefully to be able to confirm or deny things that you are either lies you're believing about yourself or um truths that like you have overlooked. >> Yeah. >> Um and and I think like that's what I'm leaning on actively in this season because it's like I'm going through one of those pivots right now. Um, and I think that's part of the reason I was excited to talk to you is like be a real life case study of like these conversations that you're having with people. >> Um, and then uh I'll I'll follow up with you when I land somewhere. >> Yeah. How sick would it be to do another one of these in six months and see >> kind of what the pivot has turned out to be? >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm super curious myself. So, >> wow. >> Um, yeah. I think those are the things that I'm telling myself and uh um also just yeah not being too stressed and worried which is easy to say it's hard to do but >> um >> I think things like family and having fun in this time I think are a way to like >> cool down the the temperature of the room where it's like oh man like I just got to figure something out ASAP it's like on one level yes on the other it's just like >> this thing is it's going to figure itself out and Uh, and obviously there's active participation from me in that. And then there's also uh the grace and and mercy of of God stepping in and being like, "Hey man, I think I made you to do this thing and uh I don't really care what you do as long as you're like honoring me with whatever." And uh so like go for it. The the world is your oyster in that way. >> Um >> yeah. So who knows? >> It's amazing. Matt Heisler, everybody. Matt, thank you so much for being on the podcast. >> Thanks for having me on. Yeah, this has been awesome. >> It has been awesome. I love it. And if you guys are in a season right now of um a pivot and if if um you're in a place where you kind of feel lost or aimless um in your occupation or or whatever that might be, know that um our community is here for you. Comment down below. You guys let us know. We're we're here for you. Um, and also, um, again, the the whole point of this podcast is hopefully this was encouraging to you and and given you some some pointers in the right directions, um, from experience. >> Yeah, you guys just spam the comments with that one gift of uh, what what [clears throat] is it? Ross from friends saying pivot in the [laughter] as they carry the couch up the stairs. I you know what I was Was was it you that showed me this? >> I don't know. >> I don't know. Literally I when I told somebody the other day, yeah, this this podcast is gonna be called Pivot or Die. They went pivot and I I didn't get the reference. >> It's just in the like uh ethos of American culture at this point. >> I I didn't get the reference when they said it and I was like, "What are you talking about?" And that's because you were home on YouTube. Yeah, exactly. [laughter] On YouTube, they pulled up that one scene and they're like, "You need to know this scene if you have a podcast. It's called Paper Drive." Oh, that's great. Thanks everybody. Like, subscribe. It's really uh helpful. Hit that bell to be notified when we have our next video. And Matt, >> until next time. >> Until next time, my dude. Come >> on, bro. Cleo.