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Jacob: Hello, hello! Thank you
for joining us on the Ordinary
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Discipleship Podcast. I'm Jacob.
I'm here with Jesse Krukshank
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and Julia Schmaltz. Lately, we
have been having conversations
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informed by their book, Becoming
Good News: Reimagining
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Discipleship Through Identity,
Story, and Science. And so,
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we're glad that you listeners
are here with us, and it's good
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to be with you, Jesse and Julia,
today as we continue to talk
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about discipleship and how
identity informs discipleship. I
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think there's a question we can
wrestle with, which is like,
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what do we do in our own
formation when we feel like
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we're getting hung up on our own
sin or brokenness, like the
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scriptural touch point we we
were discussing before we were
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recording, it's like when Paul
says, "I do not do the things I
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want to do, and I and I and I do
the things I don't want to do.
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It feels like that can be a
sticking point in our
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discipleship, and so as we think
about what it means to use
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identity as the core of our
discipleship growth. How would
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we speak to this question about
like getting stuck around sin
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issues or brokenness or or stuff
like that?
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Julia Schmaltz: Yeah, it's a
great question, specifically
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because I mean you go back to
Genesis chapter three and what
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what Adam and Eve dealt with at
the very beginning. You know, it
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says that they that they were
afraid, and that they went and
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hid in shame, and so that's the
exact same thing that happens
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with Moses when he is confronted
with God. Confront you know
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meets him in Exodus chapter
three, and at a burning bush,
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and it says that he hides his
face, and he's afraid, and he
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hides his face. So these ideas
of fear and shame are things
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that that are prevalent with us
from the very beginning, all
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throughout Scripture. When you
start paying attention to them,
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you're going to see that they
come up a lot more and more. And
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so you have to. It begs the
question, or I think we need to
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stop and ask the question. Then,
what did God intend by giving us
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fear and shame in His creation
in the first place, and are
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those are those impediment? Are
those going to impede our
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relationship with Him, or are
those actually invitations that
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He has placed into His creation
story to be able to invite us
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back into relationship with Him?
And that's really what we what
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we've discovered as you know as
we dive into it, and as you
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begin to understand you know
this psychology, and you you
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look at psychology instead of
saying let's let's you know last
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our last conversation our last
episode we talked a lot about
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you asked the question about
positive thinking, and you don't
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have you can't positive thinking
is not going to get you over the
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sin problem, you're not going to
be like okay. You know, let me
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just think my way through this,
and let me let me be positive,
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and I hope that I'm going to be
okay. All of us are human
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beings, and we feel things very
deeply, and that's what we
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believe in Scripture, and we
believe through our own
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experience, and we believe that
it God just continues to
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highlight to us that are these
emotions, those things He wired
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into us from the very beginning,
are actually are means by which
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He disciples us and calls us
back into relationship with Him.
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And so you have to ask the
question: Is it our story or is
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it His story? Because if it's if
it's our story. Then I have to
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somehow overcome my own pain, my
own sin, my own. I need to be my
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own savior. If it's God's story,
then He has put the place those
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things into His creation, so
that His created ones will fall,
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will will come back to Him, so
that we have have a a reason to
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turn to a God because we can't
save ourselves.
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Jacob: Now I think we're well
aware that we're treading on
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potentially shaky ground because
Julia, you said he God placed
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those things in creation so we'd
return to Him. Talk about what
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do you mean by those things? I
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Julia Schmaltz: believe that
that God doesn't make mistakes,
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and so I'm gonna. When he forms
our psyche, when he talks about
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our development, you know, we've
been talking a lot about our
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autobiographical memory systems
and things. Our psyche, which is
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our soul, our mind, our will,
and our emotions, those are
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things that he created. And if
we believe that God created us
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in in His image, image and
likeness, if He is calling us in
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the New Testament, Paul's asking
us to have the mind of Christ.
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Right? We talk about the Spirit
of God. All of those things are
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the soul, essentially, of God.
We're made in His image and
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likeness. You know, with with as
beings that have mind, will, and
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emotions. And so, I don't
believe that God gave us
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emotions except for the fact
that those are supposed to be
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used in our redemption. You
know, I believe our minds are
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supposed to be redeemed. I
believe our choices are supposed
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to be redeemed. So God gave us
circumstances in our development
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so that they can lean towards
our redemption.
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Jacob: Yeah, that's good. And I
think, like again, to to be
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explicit. And connect the dots
with kind of where we started.
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You're pointing out that like my
sinful choices are a product of
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the of my psyche, my soul, will,
and emotions, and those are
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things that were given to me by
God. And so it's not that God
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made a mistake in giving me a
soul, will, and emotions that
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are prone to sin. Rather, I'm a
part of a system that calls me
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back to God to have my soul,
will, and emotions redeemed.
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Julia Schmaltz: Correct.
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Jacob: And we tend to say, well,
if my soul, will, and emotions
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cause me to sin, then my soul,
will, and emotions must be bad.
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And what you're saying is, then
that would make God a pretty
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kind of a sicko, right? So, so
what we're saying is God's not a
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sicko, right? Yes, yeah. Right.
Go ahead, Jesse.
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Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, I
mean, so I kind of think about
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it like this, and and this is,
and it's this conversation that
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exposes the false narrative
maturity to be perfection,
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because God's goal for us is not
to be perfect, and when we think
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that it is, then sin becomes and
and and these things that like
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when we don't do it right become
a reason for separation, and we
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hide out of fear. So so so the
actual the problem is not that
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we're imperfect. The problem is
that we buy into the false
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narrative that we should hide
and be ashamed when we do
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something wrong. And as any good
parent knows, you want to know
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when your kids do something
wrong. You want them to come to
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you. You want them to come and
and have you help them. And God
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is no no different than that.
It's not that we screw up; that
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is the problem. It's that we
believe that that is a shameful
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thing, and we need to hide and
run away. That is the problem.
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So, so God is not worried that
He made you imperfect. God is
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not worried that He made you
with limitations. That's not a
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mistake. But because we've
bought into that false narrative
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of perfection, and we've
actually bought into this bigger
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narrative of like the Uber
Minch, which is that we are
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supposed to be superhuman, and
we've centered ourselves in the
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story. So now the story is
actually about my best self and
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my best life. Instead, and then
and then any of our limitations
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and perfections, the things I'm
not good at become hindrances
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and problems. And God didn't.
God did. That's not God's story.
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That's man's story. That might
even be the enemy's story, the
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deceiver's story. But that's not
God's story, because God is knew
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what He was doing when He
created each one of us, and when
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He created us humans with with
limitations, and those
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limitations are for our good;
they're not something to be
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overcome. But when we center
ourselves in the story, they
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become everything. But if we
center God in the story, well,
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then of course the cross is big
enough. Of course God's mercy
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and grace is enough, and He has
made perfect forever those who
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He's making holy, which is a
verse I mentioned is one of my
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favorite verses in Hebrews 1014.
Just perfection isn't God's
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goal; it it just never was.
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Julia Schmaltz: Well, and and
then the ultimate false
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narrative. I think you just
mentioned this, Jesse, when it
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comes to perfectionism, but
ultimately is that we're trying
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to be our own God, which is
idolatry, and that that if I can
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save myself, if I can overcome
my imperfection, then I am
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capable of saving myself. And
that is absolutely not the
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gospel message. The gospel
message is that we are created
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with the need to be saved by our
Creator, and by and so that's
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what He did. He came down into
his creation to do for us what
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we could not do for ourselves,
and we need a savior. That's why
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I mean, even you go right into
Exodus in the the 10
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Commandments. You know, you
shall have no other gods before
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me. The first, you know, the
first number of of commandments
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are about who is your God, who
is at the center of your
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universe, and if we believe that
we can save ourselves, we're
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putting us ourselves at the
center.
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Jacob: Yeah, and that's what's
interesting. I think like a
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person might hear us talking
about personal narrative being
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the key to discipleship, and it
sounds like putting ourselves at
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the center. But what we're
really, but what you all are
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really saying, and what we're
kind of saying in this
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conversation, is like, no, the
key to understanding your
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personal narrative is
understanding that you are one
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small piece of God's greater
narrative.
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Julia Schmaltz: Yep.
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Jacob: And so, discovering our
narrative is really about
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finding our place in the meta
narrative of God in Christ.
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Jessie Cruickshank: Right. Your
God is not an NPC or a genie in
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your story, and and a lot of us
live that way. Some of us even
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have whole discipleship
paradigms that are that way. But
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you you are a side character.
You are a side quest in God's
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story, and it's just it's just
putting things in the right
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order.
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Julia Schmaltz: You know when
you. Think about how we develop,
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though we we develop egocentric.
We don't we we develop with it's
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all about like I am here, this
is who I am. I only have eyes
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developmentally for my me and my
life, and then my family as I
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get a little bit older, and then
my friends, and it we really
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don't hit until our late
adolescence, early 20s. I mean,
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they say the brain doesn't
firmly form form till 25. We're
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not even hitting till that point
the capacity to even have a
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conversation about others and to
really understand what it means
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to care for others and to have
compassion and and intercede on
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behalf of other people, and you
have to go again. God doesn't
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make mistakes, and so that's
where where where Jesse and I
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have come into this
conversation. You know, one of
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the things that we discovered
because we're like, why why does
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this feel like it's a new
conversation to a very you know
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to the gospel? Like we're we're
like we don't have to build on
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generations after you know we
don't have to build on church
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history and one of the things
kind of the aha moments that we
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had is you know up until 100
years ago people really stayed I
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mean really the turn of the the
18 s and 1900s so 100 125 years
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ago from the time of this
recording right people on
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average live to be in their mid
30s. Now, people would live
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longer than that, but the
mortality rate, infant mortality
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rate, was so high that a vast
majority of people did not live.
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You know, the average age was in
their 30s. Think about that too.
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We didn't have cars. We take for
granted that we have cars
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everywhere. Cars were not a
thing. We did not. People
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weren't flying. They were just
starting to fly, you know, 100
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years ago. And now, I mean, I
was in the Middle East a couple
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of weeks ago, on the literally
on the other side of the world,
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and within 13 hours, I'm back
home. So what? Like we live in a
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world that did not exist 100
years ago, and so and then you
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take medical technology, all
those things. People are living
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longer. Start start adding all
that into the conversation. You
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go, okay, like people did not
ever really leave home; they
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didn't real, or if they did,
they did not go very far. So we
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we believe that, or we came to
just you know begin to think
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about it through a different
paradigm of God is maturing His
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church because the way that when
we when you leave home you
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actually go through a transition
that takes place that you know
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emotionally psychologically like
you begin to take autonomy over
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your own life in a new way and
so it looks like God is opening
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up some doors in psychology and
through neuroscience for us to
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understand how the inner
workings of how we think and how
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we grow by allowing us to make
these discoveries in science
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during this particular time in
history, which is really cool
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and really fascinating.
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Jacob: Yeah, and I think what's
beautiful about what you're
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saying there is like we have new
information. If we allow that
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new information to inform the
way that we read the scriptures,
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we might discover that there's
even more grace than we thought
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there was, and that's to me
really what it's all about,
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right? It's like God is more
gracious, more abundant in His
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love than we imagined, and what
y'all are saying is that that
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comes through even when we
understand the way that God is
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shaping us as people. If you
listener want to go deeper on
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these topics, be sure to look
out for Jesse and Julia's book,
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"Becoming Good News: Reimagining
Discipleship Through Identity,
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Story, and Science. We're
continuing to dive into topics
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inspired by the book here on the
Ordinary Discipleship Podcast,
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so certainly join us next time
for our ongoing conversation.
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Thanks.
00:00:00,300 --> 00:00:03,150
Jacob: Hello, hello! Thank you
for joining us on the Ordinary
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00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,930
Discipleship Podcast. I'm Jacob.
I'm here with Jesse Krukshank
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00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:10,800
and Julia Schmaltz. Lately, we
have been having conversations
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informed by their book, Becoming
Good News: Reimagining
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Discipleship Through Identity,
Story, and Science. And so,
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we're glad that you listeners
are here with us, and it's good
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to be with you, Jesse and Julia,
today as we continue to talk
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about discipleship and how
identity informs discipleship. I
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think there's a question we can
wrestle with, which is like,
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what do we do in our own
formation when we feel like
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we're getting hung up on our own
sin or brokenness, like the
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scriptural touch point we we
were discussing before we were
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recording, it's like when Paul
says, "I do not do the things I
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want to do, and I and I and I do
the things I don't want to do.
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It feels like that can be a
sticking point in our
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discipleship, and so as we think
about what it means to use
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identity as the core of our
discipleship growth. How would
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we speak to this question about
like getting stuck around sin
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issues or brokenness or or stuff
like that?
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Julia Schmaltz: Yeah, it's a
great question, specifically
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because I mean you go back to
Genesis chapter three and what
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what Adam and Eve dealt with at
the very beginning. You know, it
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says that they that they were
afraid, and that they went and
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hid in shame, and so that's the
exact same thing that happens
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with Moses when he is confronted
with God. Confront you know
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meets him in Exodus chapter
three, and at a burning bush,
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and it says that he hides his
face, and he's afraid, and he
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hides his face. So these ideas
of fear and shame are things
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that that are prevalent with us
from the very beginning, all
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throughout Scripture. When you
start paying attention to them,
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you're going to see that they
come up a lot more and more. And
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so you have to. It begs the
question, or I think we need to
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stop and ask the question. Then,
what did God intend by giving us
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fear and shame in His creation
in the first place, and are
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those are those impediment? Are
those going to impede our
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relationship with Him, or are
those actually invitations that
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He has placed into His creation
story to be able to invite us
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back into relationship with Him?
And that's really what we what
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we've discovered as you know as
we dive into it, and as you
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begin to understand you know
this psychology, and you you
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look at psychology instead of
saying let's let's you know last
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our last conversation our last
episode we talked a lot about
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you asked the question about
positive thinking, and you don't
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have you can't positive thinking
is not going to get you over the
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sin problem, you're not going to
be like okay. You know, let me
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just think my way through this,
and let me let me be positive,
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and I hope that I'm going to be
okay. All of us are human
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beings, and we feel things very
deeply, and that's what we
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believe in Scripture, and we
believe through our own
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experience, and we believe that
it God just continues to
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highlight to us that are these
emotions, those things He wired
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into us from the very beginning,
are actually are means by which
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He disciples us and calls us
back into relationship with Him.
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And so you have to ask the
question: Is it our story or is
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it His story? Because if it's if
it's our story. Then I have to
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somehow overcome my own pain, my
own sin, my own. I need to be my
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own savior. If it's God's story,
then He has put the place those
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things into His creation, so
that His created ones will fall,
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will will come back to Him, so
that we have have a a reason to
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turn to a God because we can't
save ourselves.
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Jacob: Now I think we're well
aware that we're treading on
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potentially shaky ground because
Julia, you said he God placed
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those things in creation so we'd
return to Him. Talk about what
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do you mean by those things? I
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Julia Schmaltz: believe that
that God doesn't make mistakes,
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and so I'm gonna. When he forms
our psyche, when he talks about
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our development, you know, we've
been talking a lot about our
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autobiographical memory systems
and things. Our psyche, which is
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our soul, our mind, our will,
and our emotions, those are
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things that he created. And if
we believe that God created us
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in in His image, image and
likeness, if He is calling us in
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the New Testament, Paul's asking
us to have the mind of Christ.
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Right? We talk about the Spirit
of God. All of those things are
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the soul, essentially, of God.
We're made in His image and
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likeness. You know, with with as
beings that have mind, will, and
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emotions. And so, I don't
believe that God gave us
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emotions except for the fact
that those are supposed to be
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used in our redemption. You
know, I believe our minds are
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supposed to be redeemed. I
believe our choices are supposed
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to be redeemed. So God gave us
circumstances in our development
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so that they can lean towards
our redemption.
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Jacob: Yeah, that's good. And I
think, like again, to to be
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explicit. And connect the dots
with kind of where we started.
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You're pointing out that like my
sinful choices are a product of
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the of my psyche, my soul, will,
and emotions, and those are
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things that were given to me by
God. And so it's not that God
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made a mistake in giving me a
soul, will, and emotions that
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are prone to sin. Rather, I'm a
part of a system that calls me
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back to God to have my soul,
will, and emotions redeemed.
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Julia Schmaltz: Correct.
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Jacob: And we tend to say, well,
if my soul, will, and emotions
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cause me to sin, then my soul,
will, and emotions must be bad.
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And what you're saying is, then
that would make God a pretty
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kind of a sicko, right? So, so
what we're saying is God's not a
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sicko, right? Yes, yeah. Right.
Go ahead, Jesse.
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Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, I
mean, so I kind of think about
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it like this, and and this is,
and it's this conversation that
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exposes the false narrative
maturity to be perfection,
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because God's goal for us is not
to be perfect, and when we think
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that it is, then sin becomes and
and and these things that like
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when we don't do it right become
a reason for separation, and we
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hide out of fear. So so so the
actual the problem is not that
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we're imperfect. The problem is
that we buy into the false
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narrative that we should hide
and be ashamed when we do
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something wrong. And as any good
parent knows, you want to know
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when your kids do something
wrong. You want them to come to
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you. You want them to come and
and have you help them. And God
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is no no different than that.
It's not that we screw up; that
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is the problem. It's that we
believe that that is a shameful
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thing, and we need to hide and
run away. That is the problem.
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So, so God is not worried that
He made you imperfect. God is
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not worried that He made you
with limitations. That's not a
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mistake. But because we've
bought into that false narrative
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of perfection, and we've
actually bought into this bigger
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narrative of like the Uber
Minch, which is that we are
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supposed to be superhuman, and
we've centered ourselves in the
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story. So now the story is
actually about my best self and
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my best life. Instead, and then
and then any of our limitations
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and perfections, the things I'm
not good at become hindrances
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and problems. And God didn't.
God did. That's not God's story.
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That's man's story. That might
even be the enemy's story, the
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deceiver's story. But that's not
God's story, because God is knew
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what He was doing when He
created each one of us, and when
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He created us humans with with
limitations, and those
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limitations are for our good;
they're not something to be
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overcome. But when we center
ourselves in the story, they
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become everything. But if we
center God in the story, well,
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then of course the cross is big
enough. Of course God's mercy
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and grace is enough, and He has
made perfect forever those who
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He's making holy, which is a
verse I mentioned is one of my
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favorite verses in Hebrews 1014.
Just perfection isn't God's
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goal; it it just never was.
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Julia Schmaltz: Well, and and
then the ultimate false
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narrative. I think you just
mentioned this, Jesse, when it
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comes to perfectionism, but
ultimately is that we're trying
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to be our own God, which is
idolatry, and that that if I can
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save myself, if I can overcome
my imperfection, then I am
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capable of saving myself. And
that is absolutely not the
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gospel message. The gospel
message is that we are created
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with the need to be saved by our
Creator, and by and so that's
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what He did. He came down into
his creation to do for us what
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we could not do for ourselves,
and we need a savior. That's why
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I mean, even you go right into
Exodus in the the 10
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Commandments. You know, you
shall have no other gods before
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me. The first, you know, the
first number of of commandments
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are about who is your God, who
is at the center of your
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universe, and if we believe that
we can save ourselves, we're
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putting us ourselves at the
center.
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Jacob: Yeah, and that's what's
interesting. I think like a
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person might hear us talking
about personal narrative being
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the key to discipleship, and it
sounds like putting ourselves at
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the center. But what we're
really, but what you all are
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really saying, and what we're
kind of saying in this
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conversation, is like, no, the
key to understanding your
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personal narrative is
understanding that you are one
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small piece of God's greater
narrative.
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Julia Schmaltz: Yep.
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Jacob: And so, discovering our
narrative is really about
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finding our place in the meta
narrative of God in Christ.
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Jessie Cruickshank: Right. Your
God is not an NPC or a genie in
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your story, and and a lot of us
live that way. Some of us even
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have whole discipleship
paradigms that are that way. But
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you you are a side character.
You are a side quest in God's
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story, and it's just it's just
putting things in the right
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order.
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Julia Schmaltz: You know when
you. Think about how we develop,
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though we we develop egocentric.
We don't we we develop with it's
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all about like I am here, this
is who I am. I only have eyes
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developmentally for my me and my
life, and then my family as I
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get a little bit older, and then
my friends, and it we really
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don't hit until our late
adolescence, early 20s. I mean,
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they say the brain doesn't
firmly form form till 25. We're
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not even hitting till that point
the capacity to even have a
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conversation about others and to
really understand what it means
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to care for others and to have
compassion and and intercede on
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behalf of other people, and you
have to go again. God doesn't
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make mistakes, and so that's
where where where Jesse and I
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have come into this
conversation. You know, one of
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the things that we discovered
because we're like, why why does
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this feel like it's a new
conversation to a very you know
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to the gospel? Like we're we're
like we don't have to build on
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generations after you know we
don't have to build on church
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history and one of the things
kind of the aha moments that we
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had is you know up until 100
years ago people really stayed I
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mean really the turn of the the
18 s and 1900s so 100 125 years
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ago from the time of this
recording right people on
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average live to be in their mid
30s. Now, people would live
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longer than that, but the
mortality rate, infant mortality
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rate, was so high that a vast
majority of people did not live.
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You know, the average age was in
their 30s. Think about that too.
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We didn't have cars. We take for
granted that we have cars
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everywhere. Cars were not a
thing. We did not. People
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weren't flying. They were just
starting to fly, you know, 100
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years ago. And now, I mean, I
was in the Middle East a couple
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of weeks ago, on the literally
on the other side of the world,
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and within 13 hours, I'm back
home. So what? Like we live in a
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world that did not exist 100
years ago, and so and then you
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take medical technology, all
those things. People are living
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longer. Start start adding all
that into the conversation. You
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go, okay, like people did not
ever really leave home; they
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didn't real, or if they did,
they did not go very far. So we
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00:12:16,770 --> 00:12:20,660
we believe that, or we came to
just you know begin to think
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about it through a different
paradigm of God is maturing His
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church because the way that when
we when you leave home you
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actually go through a transition
that takes place that you know
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emotionally psychologically like
you begin to take autonomy over
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your own life in a new way and
so it looks like God is opening
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up some doors in psychology and
through neuroscience for us to
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understand how the inner
workings of how we think and how
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we grow by allowing us to make
these discoveries in science
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during this particular time in
history, which is really cool
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and really fascinating.
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Jacob: Yeah, and I think what's
beautiful about what you're
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saying there is like we have new
information. If we allow that
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new information to inform the
way that we read the scriptures,
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we might discover that there's
even more grace than we thought
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there was, and that's to me
really what it's all about,
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right? It's like God is more
gracious, more abundant in His
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love than we imagined, and what
y'all are saying is that that
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comes through even when we
understand the way that God is
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shaping us as people. If you
listener want to go deeper on
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these topics, be sure to look
out for Jesse and Julia's book,
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"Becoming Good News: Reimagining
Discipleship Through Identity,
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Story, and Science. We're
continuing to dive into topics
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inspired by the book here on the
Ordinary Discipleship Podcast,
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so certainly join us next time
for our ongoing conversation.
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Thanks.
