218. John Rustad: Unfiltered Details on the BC Conservatives’ Civil War

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You were called professionally incapacitated by your party.
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Was that funny at the time?
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Was that offensive?
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Like it's all just par for the course.
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I apologize, that was just all bullshit.
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When you think back on that vetting process, would you have done something differently?
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One of the things that we should have vetted was the vetters.
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The two people who were in charge of vetting ultimately went to form 1BC.
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I'm a firm believer in free speech and democracy.
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If you don't have free speech, you don't have democracy.
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In March 2025, you expelled Dallas Brody after the residential school mockery controversy.
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What line did you believe was crossed?
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What's the real story from your perspective?
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Our database was breached.
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There was an active campaign signing people up to take me out.
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By September 2025, you set a bar for yourself, and then you surpassed it with a leadership review of 70.66%.
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Well, there is some dirty laundry here as part of your show.
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I mean, there was groups even as part of the management committee of the Conservative Party who were working against me in the leadership review.
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And I managed to still get 71%.
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Do you believe Trevor Halford can stabilize the caucus?
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Trevor Halford was right-hand man of Kevin Falk.
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He is a PC level true and through.
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And so he is pretending to be conservative, and I think he is more conservative than he is anything else.
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But that seems to be what Caucus is looking for.
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So my hope is that Caucus will unite.
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What are your thoughts on Aaron Gunn and his potential run for party leader?
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Would you ever consider running for the party leader role again?
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Mr.
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Rustad, what an honor it is to have you back on the program.
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Thank you so much for joining us today.
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I'm hoping we might be able to start with just talking about you've been under sustained pressure for a very long period of time.
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Obviously, the election was going on, and I don't think it's led up much since.
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And so I just wanted to start by asking how you're doing personally and health-wise.
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You've just you've been through a lot, nobody can cut it any other way.
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How are you doing?
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Aaron, first of all, thanks for having me back on.
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And thank you for the question, actually.
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You know, I you're going through the emotional roller coaster of you know frustration and anger and happiness.
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But I mean, at the end of the day, I'm at peace with the decision and I'm looking forward to whatever may come next, carrying on with doing the work as an MLA, but doing what I can to be able to support the party.
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But in many ways, actually, it's a little liberating as well because I had a uh a lot of ideas that I wanted to put into our election platform, which I had prepped for this fall because I had thought the NDP were going to drop the writ uh earlier this fall.
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And so I'm looking forward actually to rolling those out here in early January in terms of ideas for the leadership race or potentially a uh an election, of course, if the NDP happened to drop the writ.
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I am so excited to get into all of that with you.
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I guess I want to dwell a little bit longer on just the pressure.
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And for some, they may go, that's what you sign up for.
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But I think what you've gone through over this year is just incredible, just in terms of the pressure being pulled from all sides.
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How does that impact you as a leader?
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There's like as a chief, there's a lot of weight on me.
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I think about the impact it has on my community members.
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I notice when we start to deviate towards the politics of the day and less on the kind of keystone issues.
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And that there was just a lot going on.
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How do you as a leader process that?
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How do you kind of keep sharp and make sure you're in a good place?
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Yeah, you know, it was difficult to say the least, going through this past year.
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You know, leading into the election was fine.
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You know, it was all about building the party, trying to get through an election.
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Coming out of the election, right from the beginning, there were individuals who just their own composition just didn't allow them to be part of a party.
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Um and that's you know, from a staffing perspective, people that were in there.
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And so there's problems that cropped up, you know, right after the election.
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And that really never did go away.
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It kind of carried on all the way through this continual fighting.
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And I I kind of get it from one perspective.
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You know, as the Conservative Party, because we're so new, there were three different factions that were all looking to take over the party and had it off in the direction that they wanted to go in.
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And so they were continually fighting, and and there was all kinds of issues that were going on.
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And ultimately, when it got came to this fall, all three factions, which don't agree with each other, which don't like each other, all coalesced together to get rid of me because they saw me as being their one impediment to taking over.
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Well, now that's happened.
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Well, now they've got uh now they've got back to square one, they've got the these issues that are our internal fighting.
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And so my hope is that they're gonna be able to set these things aside.
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And as a party, we are going to be able to come together because I do think there's a very good chance that the NDP dropped the writ in January.
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I agree.
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So just briefly, I'd love to just go through kind of the chronology.
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Uh, in the summer of 2024, when we first spoke, uh you had taken the caucus from a very small number to 44 seats after that election.
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An incredible feat.
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Nobody going into the election, I think, thought the Conservative Party was going to be revived the way that it was.
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And you brought it to that place.
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But one of the challenges that you already alluded to is that you had fielded candidates from everywhere.
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And I imagine there was a big rush to bring in candidates and to select people.
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And so maybe that vetting process wasn't what you imagined or what you would have had had you had all the time in the world to plan this out the way you would have liked.
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And so you're rushing, you're kind of meeting people, trying to connect.
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Okay, this sounds kind of aligned.
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Let's move, let's move.
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There's pressure from PC United.
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And so you get this incredibly large tent of, as you describe, three different factions, but people who've never thought about politics.
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Like I spoke to Alia Warabus and she talked about how, like, it just kind of popped into her head maybe six months before the election, like maybe I could be involved in this.
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To people who were senior levels, like you were a minister previously, you had a lot of experience.
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So you're you're just dealing with people all across the political spectrum, but also across the experience spectrum.
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How did that play into all of this?
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Was that a factor?
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And when you think back on that vetting process, would you have done something differently?
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No, there's a there's a number of things I would have done differently, but I think that the biggest challenge that I had was I was convinced that excuse me, I was convinced that the NDP would drop the writ uh at the end of February of 20, or it's sorry in March of 2024.
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So go into an election six months early.
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At that particular point, we were in the in the high 20s, the BC United Party was in the mid to low 20s, and and at that, and so it would have been a completely divided group.
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They could have caught it by surprise, won the supermajority, and moved on.
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And so we were in a panic trying to get our candidates in place by the end of February.
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So there was a lot of candidates that we brought forward that really did not go through serious vetting.
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And just as a interesting side note, and I really have to chuckle at this because you kind of look back and you have to laugh at how things happen.
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One of the things that we should have vetted was the veters.
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That's because they the two two of the vettors, the two people who were in charge of vetting, ultimately went and formed one BC.
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One of the MLA, one of the MLAs and one of the staff, right?
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And so you kind of look at it, go, like, okay, and understand how these things happen, right?
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Grad, you've got vetters that weren't looking for necessarily the same things that you would hope that they would be looking for.
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Right.
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The other piece, so we head into February.
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I think all of this is still, I imagine, going on behind the scenes, and you're you're dealing with all of this.
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You you publicly described it as family issues and defended free votes, free speech as part of the identity of the party.
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Did you genuinely want that model, or did it become a necessity to start to manage some of the slipping that was taking place?
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How do you reflect on some of those pieces now?
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No, I see I'm a firm believer in in free speech and democracy.
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If you don't have free speech, you don't have democracy.
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And that means you also need to be able to have free votes.
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You have to be able to have that.
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And so it it became that the challenge is it wasn't so much as a party having a problem with having free votes.
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It's individuals who didn't understand the circumstance or didn't understand the consequences their voting.
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Like one of the individuals in one of the earlier votes that we did back in, I think, in February, March of 2024 or 2025, I should say, when the legislature was in there, there was a motion that the NDB move forward.
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And there were some people who wanted to vote in favor of this motion, and some people wanted to vote against this motion.
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And so the a group ended up voting against it.
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And I said, Well, look, this is going to be a nothing issue for me.
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This is not it for the party, it's not going to be a big deal.
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It's okay to have that vote.
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And so they voted against the motion.
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And people in their riding were calling them traitors.
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They were calling them, you know, how how dare you?
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You're, you know, doing this as traitor.
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And then they came back to me and said and said, Well, you said it was going to be a nothing burger.
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Well, I said it's going to be nothing.
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It's an on-issue for us as a party.
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I didn't say it was going to be a non-issue for you individually.
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That's your choice that you have to make, right?
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And so uh it was just kind of hubris to watch how that played out.
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Could you describe to us the three factions that that you kind of see?
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Well, sure.
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I mean, it's it's pretty straightforward, right?
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There's those on the on the right side of the spectrum, those on the left side or center, the left side, and those in the middle in in terms of it.
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And the two factions, one on the on the right side, you know, have this concept that we need to be a pure conservative party.
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And I wish somebody could define what that means, because I certainly don't know what that means.
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And then there's there's people on the on the center, on the left side of center, who really were more comfortable with being you know closer to federal liberal and maybe the right side of federal liberal.
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And then the the ones, the other group that was in the middle were the old BC Liberal faction that uh had their own agenda at foot.
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So those are kind of the the three that were at play.
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And like I say, my hope is now we can move beyond that.
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And uh because we the damage is being done in BC is remarkable.
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I mean, it's just it's absolutely horrendous when you look at what British Columbia has become.
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And we desperately need a new government, and we can't do that if we've got to divide a house.
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I I definitely want to get into that piece and where we're heading.
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In March 2025, you expelled Dallas Brody after the residential school mockery controversy.
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What line did you believe was crossed?
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I'm just that's as you might imagine as you might know, it's a story I've been following pretty closely and and trying to assist with making sure the conversations around the the 215 claimed anomalies is is discussed in a thoughtful, constructive way.
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What were what were your takeaways from that?
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So I I had no problem with this issue being raised and people asking the questions.
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I mean, look, money was spent and and there was an accusation that there was a crime or that there was some sort of something that went on that shouldn't have happened.
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There should have been you should have been, you know, a uh a dig.
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There should have been evidence collected if there were if there's if there was a crime or any evidence of that, it should have been discovered, and there should have been, you know, people uh should have been prosecuted or organizations, whatever the case may be.
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But just to leave it hanging, it was the issue that I have, and I still have today in terms of it.
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But when when Dallas was speaking about it, I I had no problem with her wanting to speak about it.
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It was how she was speaking about it.
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There's you can you can have the conversation of the issue, you can have the conversation of what needs to be done, but it doesn't have to be dripping with you know inciting hate or racism.
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And I found that to be the case with the approach that was being taken.
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And ultimately, you know, everybody says I kicked her out.
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I didn't kick her out, she left caucus on her own.
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She walked out of caucus, she said you should just kick me out, and she stormed out of caucus.
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I tried to meet with her two hours later to sit down and have a conversation about it.
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She refused to meet with me.
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Okay.
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So however, they love they like to spread that narrative that they were kicked out, which just like I say, you know, the when your foundation of your party isn't based on truth, I'm not sure how successful you'll be.
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Fair enough.
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The other piece that arose in the lane of free speech that I'm sure you you also had to deal with was Lindsay Shepherd being let go from the party.
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And I'll just reflect that I think, as you might know her story, that she was working at a university and then she was like wrongfully kind of maligned for showing a Jordan Peterson clip, and she recorded that, and then she gets let go of the conservative party.
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So for some of these other comments about Indian residential schools, what are your reflections on what happened there?
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Because I think she felt that was a betrayal uh of your free speech principle.
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Yeah, and you know, once again, you've got I don't have a problem with free speech, but when you're working as a staff person for a political party, you sign a contract, and part of that contract is you don't go out and say things or you don't go out and and and take positions that are not what the party's position is.
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And she signed that contract, so she actually broke her contract.
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And so it was from that position I thought, okay, maybe there's a you know, was it a mistake?
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Is there a way we can try to uh deal with it?
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Um, she you know, reluctantly took down the post, and then two days later she did another post reminding people of the post that she did.
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So that just showed me right there that she had an intent beyond just making a mistake.
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Because, you know, people make mistakes, you know, and that's just that's normal.
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Once it became obvious that it wasn't a mistake, that's when it became okay, this has to change in terms of it.
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But it's once again, the issue there conflating the issue of of the 215 anomalies with essentially you know, inciting once again hate and racism.
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And I I just I won't stand for that.
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It's not who I am.
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You can talk about that issue, and it's important to talk about that issue.
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It doesn't have to be framed in a sense that creates those kind of issues.
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This is, and I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.
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I've looked at both political sides, and the the NDP or the liberals or left-leaning individuals, they just always come across as very compassionate.
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They always come across with a sense of emotion towards the feelings and lived experiences of individuals.
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And I find that conservatives at times really lack that when because they're pushing like facts don't care about your feelings or those pieces.
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And I find that for many people in the middle, it's hard to hear the argument because it's not being done with a preface of we like the the Indian residential schools piece, it's not done with a well, we do know children died there.
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When we put zero bodies found, it's like, okay, in this specific circumstance, correct, but it's not done with the the preamble or postamble that makes it digestible for individuals.
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Do you see that as a challenge particularly for conservatives?
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I I don't see it as a challenge for conservatives because of how I see conservatives, but there are some who are, I guess you could say, tone deaf to that sort of thing.
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And I'll I'll just give you the example.
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You know, so on Orange Shirt Day, right?
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It was the the tweet that Lindsay Shepherd did was around the unmarked anomalies.
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Well, that totally lost the story.
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I mean, I mean, Orange Shirt Day was about a a young child who had you know lived on lived in on reserve, lived in poverty, finally got a brand new shirt.
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She was so proud to have this orange shirt, and then she was held off to residential school, and the shirt was taken from her.
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And she later saw somebody wearing an orange shirt and she thought that could have been mine.
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Like it's a it's a just a it's a tragic story, and and it reflects the reality of residential schools and and what happened to families and individuals.
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But to take that and then to make the accusation about the the uh the anomalies as part of that, that's that's really struck at me because it it lost the narrative of what it was supposed to be.
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And but in many ways, and I'll I'll just put it this way, it's actually the the whole issue of the 215 anomalies has now been weaponized.
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And it's actually weaponized by the Liberals and the NDP because they took it instead of dealing with the issue of reconciliation, the issue of truth and reconciliation and Orange Shirt Day, they have combined it and and used it as this weapon to to make people feel guilty about this thing.
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And and you know, if they like I say, if something is going on, people should feel bad about this.
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It's it needs to be needs to be reconciled.
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However, weaponizing it, I think, is what really created a problem.
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And then there's people on the right that don't know how to handle that well.
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I I guess I agree with you in substance, but I I guess I also heard the lady who helped start Orange Shirt Day talk about how they decided they were going to create a movement around a day, how they decided that this was gonna be the cornerstone, that they saw Pink Shirt Day and they saw an opportunity to create it.
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And then the other piece of that was National National Truth and Reconciliation Day started as a consequence of that story.
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Absolutely right.
00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.160
That's why that's why Orange Shirt Day is absolutely fine.
00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:58.640
I I actually think it's it's a good thing to to uh because it is about truth and reconciliation, it is about remembering you know what had happened, it is about finding that path for reconciliation forward.
00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:00.559
So I I actually have no problem with that.
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:07.920
It's when it now was combined with the the anomalies and that whole issue, and it became about that.
00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:09.599
Well, wait a second.
00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:15.200
That's what that to me is where it really lost the narrative and went off track.
00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:16.240
Right.
00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:19.279
Was there any reflections or was there any challenges?
00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:25.279
Lindsay Shepherd had made it kind of connected to her being a mother um and and being, I think, pregnant with another.
00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:27.519
Did that have any impact on that decision?
00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:29.279
Was that was that a heavy thing?
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.799
I guess I'm just looking for the human element of a decision like that.
00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:37.839
Or do you think she knew what she was doing and dug and dug her own grave for lack of it?
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:39.039
She knew what she was doing.
00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:54.000
I mean, she is somebody who used to teach, uh, was as a teach as a a teaching aide at the uh at a university level, teaching the value of every single word that you choose in terms of English.
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:57.920
Every word, the meaning behind each word, the carefully selecting words.
00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:03.680
She is an incredibly good communicator and she knows exactly the words that she used.
00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:06.720
There was intent behind what she did.
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:11.519
And so, yes, I mean she was pregnant, she was going to be going on leave.
00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:20.640
But the problem I faced at that point was if once she goes on leave, if she keeps posting, what do I do?
00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:22.559
How do I manage that?
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:23.440
I couldn't.
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:30.079
And and because it became clear to me that this was an attempt and it wasn't a mistake, it had to be terminated.
00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:33.839
We couldn't carry on with that with that working relationship.
00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:39.839
You had mentioned that Dallas Brody saw maybe some value in saying that she was expelled.
00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:44.000
Lindsay Shepard, of course, went online and started talking about this immediately.
00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:50.480
This will be her second time leaving an organization or being impacted by something and then kind of posting it outwards.
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:59.759
Do you think that there's a currency that people might not be aware of in claiming that the establishment or somebody is removing them or they're being pushed out, that leaders also.
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:04.319
Need to be mindful of and and navigate those, I guess, political minds.
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:09.839
You know, I uh in hindsight's 2020, we'd love to be able to do all kinds of things differently.
00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:13.519
But at the same time, you can't be afraid to do the right thing.
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:20.960
I if I ran the entire was creating the party, running the entire election, everything, everything after that, was standing for what's right.
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:31.359
And if that means that I've got to stand up against racism and against hate or against those that incite those issues, I've got to do that because it's the right thing to do.
00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:35.440
And and come what may, I will always make those same decisions.
00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:39.759
After Dallas Brody left, two more MLAs left shortly thereafter.
00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:46.799
Was there a point where you started to see like this like trying to hold this tent together was becoming unmanageable?
00:20:47.759 --> 00:21:00.720
So it when they when when the three left with Dallas as well with Tara and Jordan, there was a big piece of that was as you can see what's unfolding with 1BC between Dallas and Tara.
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:06.160
There I could see that was going on, and so when she left, I was like, okay, that's it is what it is.
00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:12.799
Jordan leaving was a little different, and that was there was a huge friction point between him and Eleanor Stirko.
00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:17.440
And so that kind of blew up and and made Jordan decide he wanted to do what he wanted to do.
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:24.160
But Jordan has always had a very independent streak in him, you know, that's just who he was and who he is.
00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:32.880
By September 2025, you set a bar for yourself, and then you surpassed it with a leadership review of 70.66%.
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:37.599
And it's just interesting to go back to that moment to see where we are right now.
00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:39.359
Uh, did you feel like that was a win?
00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:43.279
Did you feel like it was it was a clear mandate to move forward?
00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:44.720
You know, it was interesting.
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:50.559
There were groups, and particularly, and I'm you know, I'll air some dirty laundry here as part of your show.
00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:57.279
I mean, there was groups even as part of the management committee of of the conservative party who were working against me in the leadership review.
00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:59.759
And I managed to still get 71%.
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:06.480
With that, if those groups had not been working against me, it would have been in the mid-80s in terms of the leadership review.
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:10.240
But it wasn't good enough for particularly the management committee.
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:14.160
They continued to try to work against me, ultimately asked me to resign.
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:20.240
And so there was that was part of one of the factions that was going on within the Conservative Party.
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:24.079
How did you how do you process those types of things, John?
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:26.400
Uh, you know, it's politics.
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:27.599
What can I say?
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:28.000
Right?
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:32.720
If you're not prepared to face these sort of things, that's that's just what it is.
00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:38.880
There was then reporting about the membership sign-up, irregularities around that period.
00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:41.279
What's the real story from your perspective?
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:42.640
I know you've had to give tidbits.
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:46.000
I'd just be curious, how do you take in that whole that whole issue?
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:48.319
So there was a whole bunch of things that went on.
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:49.839
Our database was breached.
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:55.039
There was an active campaign signing people up to try to uh to try to take me out.
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:58.000
There were some people who were signing people up to try to support me.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:08.000
And then there was uh a couple of individuals who broke the Elections Act and did something they shouldn't have, which was sign up people under a single credit card, which is not allowed.
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:13.680
And so the party, one as soon as I became aware of that, I called the executive director.
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:19.920
He was in Germany at the time, it was like three o'clock in the morning, his time, and I said, This seems what's going on.
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:21.440
This these have to be removed.
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:22.319
We cannot have this.
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:25.200
This is way, this could be way too damaging for the party.
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:27.920
And so they they just have to be removed.
00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:40.000
And so ultimately that's what that did happen, of course, is that is they were removed, the money was refunded, and there was the report that went to uh elections BC as per elections BC rules in in terms of it.
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:53.440
And so I was quite surprised because you know, people that uh had told me that they were signing up, the people that actually had done some of those signups had were telling me they were they were doing it, and I said, You're doing it right the right, you're following the rules, right?
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:56.000
And they said, Oh, yeah, yeah, everything's being done right.
00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:59.440
Well, you know, clearly that wasn't being done right.
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:04.319
Then came the leak about the search for MLA's phones.
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:05.680
Who authorized that?
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:07.039
Were you trying to stop it?
00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:09.279
Yeah, and and do you regret how that ended up looking?
00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:14.079
No, you know, and and this is this is how things get taken out of context, unfortunately.
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:23.839
We had had obviously a number of leaks that had been coming out of caucus, and and everybody, not everybody, most people in caucus were quite concerned about the leaks and and wanted to come stop.
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:35.119
And then somebody had said, look, somebody has just leaked directly out of our meeting and and had a quote from something that was out on the internet, and and everybody was up in arms, like this, how do we get that?
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:35.680
How do we stop this?
00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:38.000
And I said, Well, there is one way we could.
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:44.640
We could check it, we could check phones to see if anybody's you know sent something out here tonight from our caucus meeting.
00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:46.640
And everybody said, Yeah, yeah, that's a great idea.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:47.599
Let's do that.
00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:48.880
So we did.
00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:53.119
Well, I didn't go and say, okay, everybody's gonna have to check have their phone searched, right?
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:59.279
I mean, this is a question mark I put on the table, and it everybody, majority of people, not everybody, majority of people said, Yeah, yeah, we should do that.
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:00.480
This is the right thing to do.
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:02.319
Okay, so we did.
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:04.160
Wow.
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:11.359
When Amelia Boltby left and publicly pointed to your conduct uh and your leadership, what did you take from that?
00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:13.920
Was it substance or do you think it was politics?
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:16.720
Of course it was politics in terms of it.
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:18.559
And you know, it's unfortunate.
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:24.960
And you know, she was somebody who she worked hard in in terms of her files, she really delved into things.
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:30.240
You know, she had a few struggles that she had been going through, but uh, you know, I did everything I could to support her.
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:37.440
So, and then when she left and and said what she said, I just I found that kind of a little amusing, but that's politics once again.
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:45.599
When I had asked you, I think in 2024, I had asked you something along the lines of do you feel like you're covered fairly in the media?
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:56.799
And from everything I've seen since, personally, I feel the media has been very, very focused on you, your leadership, and and these stories, of course, get a lot of traction and people get very interested.
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:05.200
Do you still feel that you've been covered fairly and that these topics have been covered fairly, or do you think that there's just little fires that you end up having to put out as leader that's just normal?
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:11.839
No, you know, the the issue is this everybody is looking for the tabloid story.
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:12.640
Okay?
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:14.160
That's just nature.
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:15.839
That's that's the nature of the business.
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:20.559
Because if there's something that's sensationalized, that is what people want to see.
00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:24.960
It's for example, you know, a thousand planes land safely, no one reports on it.
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:28.000
One one plane has a problem, and everybody's reporting on it.
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:36.079
Now that's understandable in terms of the potential tragedy and that side of things, but it is it's just the nature of how reporting is.
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:45.759
And so, you know, there's the day-to-day stuff, but what gets what climbs above the day-to-day grind of politics well is when there's some sort of internal story going on.
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:50.480
And so was there reporters out there intentionally trying to do things?
00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:58.240
There was a couple, I think, that were somewhat unethical in terms of how they reported, but the rest of them, I think, were just you know doing their job.
00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:02.799
On November 26th, you dared David Eby to call an election.
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:06.480
And then a few weeks later, you're obviously in a completely different position.
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:09.440
One BC just lost party status.
00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:17.759
And this just seems like a prime opportunity right now for the NDP to call an election this this January, February, March.
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:19.279
How do you digest that?
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:31.680
Do you think the party, like the caucus members who were pushing for you to be removed, realized that they really I think they've made the party and and the future of this election very vulnerable as a consequence of their decision?
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:36.480
How do you digest kind of that November 26th to where we are just just a few weeks later?
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:39.839
You know, we were back in November 26th, we'd just done some polling.
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:41.920
We were somewhere between two and eight points up.
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:46.559
It was pretty obvious uh at that particular point if Evie dropped the writ, we would have formed governments.
00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:52.880
So of course I was gonna challenge them to drop the writ, despite the fact that if you got more money, money doesn't buy you an election.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.240
So I was not worried about that at any point.
00:27:56.240 --> 00:28:02.880
The challenge that has happened because of the internal struggles within the party is it has left us vulnerable.
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:05.519
Who's gonna vote for a party with an interim leader?
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:06.960
What does the party stand for?
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:08.960
Where is it going in terms of policy?
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:14.160
And so it creates a real vulnerability that David Eby could very easily take advantage of.
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:21.039
And to that extent, I've heard two ministers come out and talk about dropping the writ in early January.
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:27.839
Uh David Eby himself has speculated that it's something he's looking at, even though he's in another article saying he's not going to do it.
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:30.880
And then he's in another article saying, well, they're going to look at something in the spring.
00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:35.359
If both you'll maybe something in the spring, that's the way those sort of things go.
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:44.240
But behind the scenes, we're seeing operatives of the NDP looking for office space, sorry, for two months' worth of office space from January and February.
00:28:44.240 --> 00:29:00.079
We're seeing campaigners from out in the prairies taking two months worth of holidays in January, February, booking it on holidays or or or a leave of absence, booking it, and then saying, well, if we've got it on hold, that decision will be coming after the Christmas holidays.
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:02.559
So it's pretty clear they're looking at it.
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:08.559
I think the only way they don't drop the a writ and create an election is if the polls aren't there for.
00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:13.519
So they're doing weekly polling, they're seeing how the polls change with everything that's going on.
00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:16.000
If they think they can win a majority, they're gonna go.
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:25.519
There's one other interesting issue, which is one of the NDP MLAs, from what I understand, is considering resigning, which then means they lose their majority.
00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:35.759
And what that could mean before they get a by-election and and potentially win that by-election, they're gonna have to face a confidence vote likely in February in the legislature.
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:40.160
And so if they don't have the vote, that could force an election by bringing them down.
00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:51.200
So EB is in the premier's in a difficult spot looking at dudes, does he drop the writ now and and gamble with a a party, a conservative party that is leaderless at the moment?
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:56.480
Or, you know, does he take the gamble that he may lose a confidence vote in February?
00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:04.240
You've you've stepped down, but when I look at the cards on the table, you come out of a leadership review very successfully.
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:07.519
I don't care how you cut it, that was a successful leadership review.
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:13.599
The polling was in your favor, and the everything's lining up for an election.
00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:19.759
Like even the tea leaves in September, October, November were signaling potentially another election.
00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:22.160
Like I we were hearing that all throughout this.
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:27.599
So I personally am stunned at the decision to push forward on this.
00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:32.079
It just doesn't, it just doesn't align with the chronology of where I feel like we're heading.
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:35.680
And so when they proceeded, I was just like, this like, what are you doing?
00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:39.519
Like you're taking a big risk, and it doesn't seem like the reward is super clear.
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:43.680
I see something similar right now with Pierre Polyev and the challenges he's facing.
00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:46.559
Like there could be another election called any minute.
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:52.720
And to put to suggest removing the leader right now when there isn't an obvious person seems like a gigantic risk.
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:54.480
How do you just digest?
00:30:54.480 --> 00:31:01.759
I it just it must feel very confusing to you to be where you are, where it's like, okay, we're heading for disaster right now.
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:03.440
We're head, we could be heading into an election.
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:08.559
There isn't a plan, there isn't a process, there isn't a schedule for when that new leader is going to be selected.
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:13.200
I know people are starting, we'll talk about some of the names being put forward, but like this is kind of crazy.
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:15.519
Yeah, that's probably the best way to describe it.
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:16.720
I would agree.
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:19.440
Uh, and it's, I mean, just it is what it is, right?
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:30.400
There was there was such there was such a group, and and like I say, groups that don't even get along together, but came together to uh decide they wanted a different leadership for the party, and that's politics, that's the way things go.
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:34.000
But one of the excuses they used was, well, we were struggling raising money.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:35.200
Well, that that wasn't true.
00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:37.839
We were actually raising money, we were doing just fine.
00:31:37.839 --> 00:31:42.319
But one thing that kills fundraising for a political party is a leadership race.
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:42.640
Yeah.
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:45.279
Because nobody donates to a party until you've got a new leader.
00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:48.000
Everybody's going to be donating to leadership campaigns.
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:56.000
So the party now is going to do, gonna have virtually zero fundraising at a time when it needs to be picking up fundraising because of a potential election.
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:58.480
So it's put itself in a very vulnerable position.
00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:00.880
And I mean, I I'm not saying any secrets.
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:05.440
This is this is known to anybody that's been involved in politics uh any length of time.
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:10.960
They they know what the circumstances are around things like leadership races and and changing out leaders.
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:13.359
So it just it's curious.
00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:28.079
I find it curious too, in terms of what people were thinking in terms of this, because it it has put them very vulnerable as a party, had put us very vulnerable as a party, and also the province very vulnerable because we desperately need change in BC.
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:34.640
I'm sorry to ask this, but would you be open to just walking me through like these 20 MLAs come forward?
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:37.519
There was obviously some sustained pressure previous to that.
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:39.599
You're saying no, that there's nothing to see here.
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:43.839
Don't, don't, this is just distraction from the key issues we need to focus on.
00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:47.440
Could you just walk me through your decision to step down?
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:50.160
I'm sure you started to feel like this is just not going away.
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:54.319
We're not moving on, but could you just walk me through that so I understand how that came about?
00:32:54.640 --> 00:33:19.759
So, I mean, uh when the when the group came forward and the and the management committee did this, there's actually a a clause in the party constitution, which would have actually invalidated the membership of all the board of the uh of the magic committee and stuff, and and which would have meant legally I could have basically had them removed as being members of the party, and we could have put a we could have put a board in place, a different board in place.
00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:28.480
So there was a there was a legal avenue I could have gone and to validate, you know, the uh the so-called claim that that the magic committee had made.
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:31.599
But at that point, what was I trying to do?
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:39.200
Is that going to help the party to have this civil war and this fight and and competing boards and all the rest of this nonsense that would go on?
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:42.960
And I just looked at it and went, now that's suddenly becoming all about me.
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.200
And that is not where a leader should be.
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:51.200
A leader should be always putting the party and the and the province ahead of their own personal objectives.
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:56.240
And so that's why you know I woke up in the morning and thought started thinking about it and thought, no, you know what?
00:33:56.240 --> 00:33:59.920
For the good of the party, for the good of the province, I needed to step back.
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:02.240
What was the weight of that decision?
00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:04.720
I mean, just tying this all back together.
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:06.880
I just you brought the party back.
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:14.719
Like you're involved in this, you're meteoric rise, you're you had good polling numbers, you had a strong leadership review.
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:19.199
Like it's it's like you were given sort of a gift, like an opportunity.
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:27.840
And then just through party politics and those concerns from those individuals, like that was that opportunity to do something was taken away.
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:32.639
And then it sounds like you stepped back to let it focus more on the policies of the day.
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:35.840
What was that emotion like to be at the top?
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:42.880
Like I imagine in 2024, you're like, we're right there, and then it goes, it it's here now, it's in a completely different place.
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:52.400
Well, see, the the thing is what what some people you maybe struggle to understand or struggle to think about is this was never about me becoming the premier of the province of British Columbia.
00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:53.199
Okay, right?
00:34:53.199 --> 00:35:02.320
This was about creating an alternative, creating a conservative party in British Columbia because the the BC Liberal Party, you know, rebranded as United Party, had failed.
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:03.679
They were not going to win.
00:35:03.679 --> 00:35:05.440
They needed, we needed something new.
00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:09.599
We needed a party that could bring hope and optimism to people in BC.
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:11.360
And so that's what I wanted to do.
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:12.800
And I, and why did I do it?
00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:13.519
Simple.
00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:15.119
I want to retire in BC.
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:22.000
If the NDP carry on with this nonsense that they're doing right now, I'm sitting down with my wife and saying, do we stay in British Columbia?
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:25.519
Like, is it we're staying here where we we can move to another jurisdiction?
00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:29.920
And so I wanted to, I want British Columbia to be on the right track.
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:31.280
I want to see a common sense.
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:37.519
I'd like to see a government in place that's actually going to do the right things as opposed to things based on politics.
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:40.480
And so that's that's why I did what I did.
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:53.519
It's wild that you say that because I remember our first interview where you said the whole reason you entered politics to begin with was because your family was considering uh you were considering moving your business to Alberta for the tax benefits and the less pressure there.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:58.400
And to hear that now, where you're like, you're kind of back, that must be a frustrating feeling.
00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:13.360
It's gone full circle, and it is frustrating because you know we had started making making some good progress over over the years as with the BC Liberals, and then the the plot was lost, and then it in comes as it was described once by W.A.C.
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:21.199
Bennett, the barbarians were no longer at the gate, the barbarians are in the garden wrecking things, uh, which is what's been happening in British Columbia now.
00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:25.119
And it's it's very unfortunate to see what has happened, right?
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:38.880
But there was I saw an article, I think it was BC BC, the BC Business Council, that was talking about the you know, people leaving this province, and record numbers of people have left this province, and the vast majority of those are under 45.
00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:43.840
And they're people that are leaving because they just don't see how to build a future in this province.
00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:46.960
And that to me is an enormous failure.
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:54.880
I mean, we think about when the polling last year showed that 50% of the youth in this province were thinking about leaving British Columbia.
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:55.920
What does that say?
00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:58.320
We have everything you could ever want as a province.
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:05.599
We have all the resources you could ever want, we could have all the opportunities you ever want, but it is so hopelessly managed that people can't see how to stay here.
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:14.400
I agree, I agree that I think one of the biggest challenges we face is there, I'm starting to see hopelessness set in among young people.
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:21.920
And that really concerns me because the way out is to be able to work harder, to create more jobs, to create economic prosperity.
00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:24.960
And there is just this looming like this is how it is.
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:27.199
And I feel that's very concerning.
00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:34.639
And I think you always need a strong opposition to put pressure on the government to perform and to follow through and to make sure things are moving in the right direction.
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:42.480
You know, and I part of that interview with uh that the BCBC thing put out was a young lady, and she's working multiple jobs.
00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:46.639
It's not about working harder, it's about having the opportunity.
00:37:46.639 --> 00:37:49.039
British Columbia should be that land of opportunity.
00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:51.119
We should be the Norway of North America.
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:54.000
We have trillions of dollars of natural gas.
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:57.599
We've got, you know, dozens and dozens of mines that can be opened up.
00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:00.880
We've got beautiful renewable natural natural forestry.
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:11.360
We've got tourism, of course, we've got all the ability for high-tech and for all kinds of things, but we have done everything we possibly can to block these successes from happening in British Columbia.
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:21.599
And you like you'll see from some of the policy stuff I plan to put out here coming out early in the new year, you know, one of the big things that we need to focus on is wage growth.
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:23.519
Like you look at the cost of food.
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:29.760
Food has gone up 31%, housing has you know gone up dramatically, but wages have not kept up.
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:34.400
You can't bring food prices down, you can't bring housing prices down.
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:43.760
But what you can do is you can stabilize housing prices, you can drive you drive out as much cost as you can from food, but you really need to see wage growth.
00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:50.079
And you're never going to see wage growth if companies and individuals don't have the confidence to invest in this province.
00:38:50.079 --> 00:39:04.159
So we are in a we are in a in a I wouldn't call it a death spiral, but we are in, you know, we're circling the dream, I guess you could say, in terms of how British Columbia is, and and the path is down unless we change course.
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:09.760
You were called professionally incapacitated by your party.
00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:12.320
Was that just you're you're laughing now?
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:13.519
Was that funny at the time?
00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:14.639
Was that offensive?
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:16.960
Like, is this all just par for the course?
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:19.280
You know, I'm gonna use some language, I apologize.
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:20.639
That was just all bullshit.
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:27.119
I mean, look, that could have easily been swatted away with any kind of legal challenge, professionally incapacitated.
00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:32.000
There is no such thing in the co in the in the definition of law or in the courts.
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:39.679
So it was just something that a board that had made up to try to create a narrative to have me replaced.
00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:44.000
Do you believe Trevor Halford can stabilize the caucus?
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:46.880
Trevor Hallford.
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:51.519
Trevor Hallford was right hand man of Kevin Falcon.
00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:53.840
He is a BC liberal true and through.
00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:59.679
And so he is pretending to be a conservative, and he I think he is more conservative than it is anything else.
00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:02.639
But that seems to be what Caucus is looking for.
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:07.119
So my hope is that caucus will unite and not be divided.
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:11.039
And if that's, you know, the path that the party goes, that's the path the party goes.
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:17.039
Certainly not the path that uh I was wanting to see the uh conservative party go, but it is what it is.
00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:22.559
What do you think the difference is between a true B like a BC conservative and BC liberal?
00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:25.360
Like what do you think those differences were in substance?
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:36.880
You know what it's Gordon Gordon Campbell put it together well back going into 2001 when he brought in the Reform Party and and combined it together under one banner of the BC Liberals.
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:42.000
And at that point, it was more conservative than it was liberal, but it had the right balance.
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:54.880
And so when you look at policies, I look at where the conservatives should be is finding that right balance, finding policies that are on the on the center right, that you know are like I say, standing for what's right.
00:40:54.880 --> 00:41:02.719
It's respecting family values, small government, you know, opening up the economy, those types of things.
00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:15.920
And when I look at what the BC Liberals had become, and I think it was, I think I can quote this from Kevin Falcon when he was running his leadership campaign, he actually said the NDP have some good ideas, they just don't know how to implement them.
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:17.679
Well, I can tell you something.
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:21.840
I look at what the NDP are coming forward with ideas, I don't see any of those ideas that are good.
00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:29.920
And I don't think there's anybody in this province that can say that we're better off today than we were 10 years ago when before the before the NDP took power.
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:41.280
So that to me is the difference is being bold enough to be able to come out and change direction of what we want to do, or being incremental and trying to do minor adjustments.
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:46.159
Uh, that's the really difference, in my opinion, between being conservative and and being liberal.
00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:51.679
The big player we're hearing is interested in entering that leadership race is Aaron Gunn.
00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:57.599
My understanding is you and Aaron Gunn may have had some interactions when the Conservative Party was coming to life.
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:00.880
I don't think he felt the love, and now he's looking at coming in.
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:04.400
What are your thoughts on Aaron Gunn and his potential run for party leader?
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:15.119
Well, Aaron's an interesting individual, and I've I've uh first met Aaron back, I guess would have been about 2018, somewhere in there, was the first time I kind of met him.
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:22.960
And uh yeah, I've heard him speak a number of things, and and I certainly support him, endorsed him as he's running for the federal MP position.
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:26.320
But he's in a very interesting situation.
00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:34.320
Right now, the Conservative Party, or the I should say the Federal Liberal Party, is only one seat away from having a majority.
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:53.360
And so is Aaron Reedy going to step aside and create a by-election in British Columbia, one that could very easily be won by the BC Liber or by the federal liberals, giving them a majority government to pursue the possibility of leading a the BC Conservative Party.
00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:57.920
It's an interesting problem that uh that uh Aaron Gunn will be facing.
00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:01.679
Now, he says he's interested and he's he's certainly considering it.
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:03.039
So more power to him.
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:05.599
You know, he's he's got certainly a following.
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:09.199
But I think there's lots of interesting names that are coming forward right now.
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:16.960
You know, an interesting one I just heard uh just yesterday, of course, is the uh the um uh CEO of of Save on Foods.
00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:19.920
Right, Daryl was last in now.
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:33.280
Can't remember his name at the moment, but uh you know he's considering running for the leadership of the Conservative Party, as is the uh current CEO of I of the ICPA looking at it.
00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:36.079
So there is there's a lot of names that are coming forward.
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:38.639
We'll see who ultimately enters the race.
00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:48.320
I think I know the answer to this question, but I have to ask anyways, would you ever consider running for the party leader role again?
00:43:48.320 --> 00:44:04.400
And I ask that specifically because like the numbers, like you were you got pressure from caucus members, but it's not clear that the party members said that they didn't think it's not like you had a leadership review where you scored really badly and you were holding on.
00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:06.960
Those things were moving in the right direction.
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:10.239
And so I'm just curious, would you ever consider running again?
00:44:10.559 --> 00:44:11.679
Well, I can tell you something.
00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:17.599
There's a lot of people around the province, a lot of my support base organizers and other people that want me to run.
00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:24.559
And I look at it and I say, you know, I've I've said and when I resigned that I wouldn't be doing it.
00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:27.360
But I guess in politics, you never say never.
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:33.360
So at this point, it's certainly not something I'm planning to do, but you never know how things play out.
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:37.679
I think I I think I smell an answer there that uh is very interesting.
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:59.440
And I guess I'll just say from from a British Columbian myself, all I want is a strong government that's focused on the key issues of the day, affordability, getting housing prices addressed, making sure people have the opportunity to go from the bottom rung to the very tip top of the elite and have the opportunity to make all the money they ever wanted to if they work hard and they reach their full potential.
00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:05.039
And I think the challenge for the conservative party from my perspective is keeping that big tent.
00:45:05.039 --> 00:45:15.440
And that's not an easy thing to do, and making sure that you don't get pulled too far right or too far left and that you reflect the values of your party.
00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:17.599
And so I think those are the lines to walk.
00:45:17.599 --> 00:45:19.679
But very, very interesting answer.
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:26.320
Can you just reflect for me on the journey that you've been on as you're settling down this Christmas season?
00:45:26.320 --> 00:45:28.000
What are your what are your takeaways?
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:29.280
You've had a wild year.
00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:33.840
Yeah, it's been well, you know, you have the ups and downs of a pretty wild year over the past year.
00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:38.159
I I look at things like really from a perspective of sort of reflecting back.
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:43.280
What is the one thing that I sort of stands out to me that I was unable to achieve?
00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:48.000
And I look at it from the perspective of it's the hollowing out of the of the middle class.
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:50.320
You know, those that are doing well are doing well.
00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:51.840
They're going to be fine.
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:53.920
Those that aren't doing well are struggling.
00:45:53.920 --> 00:45:57.039
But the middle class is really being hollowed out.
00:45:57.039 --> 00:45:59.920
They're being continually pushed down into the struggling category.
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:05.840
Like I say, when you see food prices go up 31%, housing prices, of course, have gone up just astronomically.
00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:08.960
Food bank use is up, you know, dramatically.
00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:19.599
You know, 40% of the people or between 40 and 45% of the people in this province are facing food insecurity, living check-to-check, you know, wondering about, you know, struggling to put food on the table.
00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:22.000
There is big change that's needed.
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:22.480
Right.
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:24.079
I mean, we need to see wage growth.
00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:26.320
We need to see big policy shifts.
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:50.159
You know, I had about $4 billion planned in terms of tax relief, which I'm I'm looking forward to talking about here in the very near future, just and trying to get to the situation where people can see how to build a future in British Columbia, particularly those younger people, and get back to a place where you have a good quality middle class that can live a quality life that they want to live in this province.
00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:53.840
To me, that was the one thing that needed to be focused on.
00:46:53.840 --> 00:47:04.159
And we kept on getting pulled away from that by so many other issues that it's it's kind of left that as just hanging, and it's unfortunate.
00:47:04.639 --> 00:47:10.239
On these policy discussions, as you might imagine, as a chief, I'm very interested in the Cowichan ruling.
00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:13.760
I've done a breakdown on what I think that ruling was and the history of it.
00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:21.840
What are your perspectives on how we move reconciliation to a place where everybody is excited about it?
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:23.920
Again, everybody sees themselves reflected.
00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:35.360
One of my critiques of the NDP has been they decided British Columbians didn't need to be a part of the conversation around reconciliation, that they decided it was it was their government to First Nations communities only.
00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:39.440
And British Columbians are now getting the memo about some of the decisions being made.
00:47:39.440 --> 00:47:43.440
And I think rightly some of them are like, well, we weren't consulted.
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:44.320
We elected you.
00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:48.239
We would love to be involved in these conversations and have our voices known.
00:47:48.239 --> 00:48:00.719
And I think that's why we're seeing such a strong reaction to the Cowichan decision and the unmarked graves story and these pieces is because British Columbians are not sitting at the table alongside First Nations and the government.
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:02.480
It is it is a big challenge.
00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:05.920
Majority of people in British Columbia want to see some form of reconciliation.
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:07.519
And you know, I support that.
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:09.679
It's what I call economic reconciliation.
00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:11.760
But it has to be what is the answer?
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:12.719
What is the end?
00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:14.480
How does this get resolved?
00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:16.480
It can't just go on forever.
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:19.280
And so, what is it that's trying to be the objective?
00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:22.480
If land is the question mark, we're never going to get there.
00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:28.000
And it just we can't get there because there is too much conflict that will happen.
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:31.039
And that's starting to come out now because of the Couch and decision.
00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:37.119
And I was talking with a couple of First Nation elders just actually about a week and a half ago about this.
00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:39.679
And they said, Well, you know, of course, no one's going to lose a house.
00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:41.760
We're not taking anybody's house away.
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:48.639
But over time, that property will ultimately go into being part of a part of a nation.
00:48:48.639 --> 00:48:51.440
And I thought about that and I thought, well, wait a second here.
00:48:51.440 --> 00:49:00.079
If that is what the perspective is, then basically what is being said there is you will have no value left in your property.
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:05.280
Because if it's if it's going to be owned by somebody else, how do you sell it to somebody in the future?
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:05.920
You can't.
00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:07.039
No one will buy it.
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:10.239
And so you destroy the value in land.
00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:14.960
And there's about $2.8 trillion in value in British Columbia in land.
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:21.360
Our economy is based on land, is based on private property ownership.
00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:23.679
Much of our society is based on that.
00:49:23.679 --> 00:49:34.559
So if you're going to undermine that, if you're going to destroy that, you are destroying the economy, you're destroying many of the values that we have in this in this province.
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:37.440
And so who would invest in British Columbia?
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:41.599
And so it can't be, you know, a fight over title.
00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:44.239
What it has to be is what is the objective?
00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:46.400
And I, you know, I think about Dr.
00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:52.800
Joseph Gosnell, uh, who's who's now passed, but you know, he was uh he was the architect of the Nishka Treaty.
00:49:52.800 --> 00:50:00.079
And he once said, you know, indigenous people are being held back for many, many decades economically.
00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:04.400
And it's high time they have the opportunity to catch up and impossible surpass.
00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:15.920
But that wasn't by taking from one group to give to another, that was by adding economic activity, economic potential, and making sure First Nations realize their full opportunity and potential.
00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:19.679
And that's to me is what economic reconciliation should be.
00:50:19.679 --> 00:50:27.199
How do we support the objectives that nations are trying to do to move away from managing poverty to managing prosperity?
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:36.559
How do we see that engagement and adding to our economy so that both Indigenous and non-indigenous alike are going to benefit from it and be proud and supporting it?
00:50:36.559 --> 00:50:44.239
How do we make sure that nations have that ability by engaging in the economy so that they can support their culture and their language?
00:50:44.239 --> 00:50:47.760
They can support those values that are critical and important for them.
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:51.679
That to me is what we should be trying to do.
00:50:51.679 --> 00:50:54.719
What is the objective that we're trying to find?
00:50:54.719 --> 00:51:00.639
So let's start mapping out what the objective is, and then let's start this process of actually unleashing that.
00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:06.559
And that does mean the return of land, where it's where it unleashes that economic potential.
00:51:06.559 --> 00:51:16.880
But it doesn't mean having to fight over, you know, some of the historical values or historical components, because if we try to go there, it's not going to get reconciliation.
00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:30.320
And I I am my my biggest fear in the path of reconciliation today is the fact that the public is now pushing back and we're probably going backwards in terms of actually trying to be able to address these things.
00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:36.400
And that that ultimately is going to stagnate and leave us in a real problem going forward.
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:39.599
I completely agree with you on that point.
00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:57.440
It feels like there's a vacuum right now, and obviously I'm not in charge of other communities and how they want to operate, but there is a gap in hearing First Nations sit down in front of a microphone and go, hey, we we were mistreated for 150 years.
00:51:57.440 --> 00:51:59.599
We've had issues with the province.
00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:03.599
We've had issues with how our issues have been dealt with by the government.
00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:15.840
We have not been heard for a long time, but we are here, we are being listened to for one of the first times in the province's history, in Canada's history, where there are elected officials willing to hear us out.
00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:18.159
We don't need to bang on tables anymore.
00:52:18.159 --> 00:52:19.760
We need to constructively go.
00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:21.920
What is the cost-benefit analysis?
00:52:21.920 --> 00:52:23.679
How do we work collaboratively?
00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:26.719
And there are a lot of voices that just want to pound tables.
00:52:26.719 --> 00:52:29.519
And I worry that that is going to set us back now.
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:34.400
We have the ear of the premier, we have the ear of the official opposition.
00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:37.119
We have people willing to try and find a pathway forward.
00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:46.639
But if we just bang our hands on the table and go give it us it all back, we're not speaking to the room and we're not being constructive about what the path forward is.
00:52:46.639 --> 00:52:50.480
I've regularly said online, we need to start setting benchmarks.
00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:53.760
What is the education rate today and how do we get it to where it needs to be?
00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:55.760
What's the housing, the homelessness rate?
00:52:55.760 --> 00:52:56.800
How do we address that?
00:52:56.800 --> 00:53:06.800
Like let's start taking these issues piece by piece and going quantifiably, let's get Indigenous people at par or, as you said, above the standard average.
00:53:06.800 --> 00:53:09.119
And that can be our reconciliation plan.
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:20.000
If those issues are resolved, people have opportunities, people have homes that aren't dangerous to live in, and everybody can get behind all of us having a quality of life that we can be proud of.
00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:24.239
You know, and I look at look at it and think, okay, so is that utopia?
00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:25.519
Because it's unachievable.
00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:27.519
And I say it is not.
00:53:27.519 --> 00:53:29.519
I think it is achievable.
00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:33.280
So what we need to do is we need to look at where do we see success?
00:53:33.280 --> 00:53:35.039
What does that look like?
00:53:35.039 --> 00:53:37.119
What does success look like?
00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:45.199
You know, for example, and and I I like I point to Heisla, but you know, they had the good fortune of where they are, they had big projects, right?
00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:47.280
There, but they took advantage of it.
00:53:47.280 --> 00:54:01.199
You know, everybody that wants a job is working, you know, they're they're raising their kids, they're going on holidays, they're buying homes, they're buying cars, they're very successful, and they've got you know a large amount of money that's now in reserve.
00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:04.800
They're they're you know sending out checks to people and and benefits.
00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:14.960
So, okay, that's maybe not the total success for everyone, but it certainly has dramatically reduced all of the social issues, right?
00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:23.119
The kids are are doing well in school, they're not the right the drugs and and addiction issues is is reduced back to more normal levels.
00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:25.840
The suicide rates have dropped off dramatically, right?
00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:29.360
You so you look at all these measures and think, okay, there's success.
00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:32.639
But are there other bands in the province who are doing similar things?
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:47.039
And you look at what Clarence Louis's done with you know the Soyuz band, you look at some of these other things, you think, okay, maybe there is a pattern here that we need to be looking at in terms of how we can create those opportunities.
00:54:47.039 --> 00:55:00.559
And so I that's why I say, and to me, you look at, for example, a band on the southern tip of Vancouver Island, a hectare, just a hectare of land may be enough to create an unbelievable economic opportunity for the nation.
00:55:00.559 --> 00:55:03.920
And then you go up to up in my area, might be Tackle Lake.
00:55:03.920 --> 00:55:10.480
Maybe it's hundreds of thousands of hectares that ultimately is part of creating that same type of opportunity.
00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:15.679
But it is the land itself that is the foundation of our economy and our society.
00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:23.519
Therefore, it is also the land that's the foundation of being able to build what that reconciliation should look like for nations as well in terms of returning land.
00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:27.360
But it becomes, if it's just about land, it won't work.
00:55:27.360 --> 00:55:33.199
It has to be about what that economic opportunity and that vision really needs to look like.
00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:39.440
My last question, I really appreciate all the time you've been willing to share, John.
00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:43.760
Is you were elected, you have 44 seats.
00:55:43.760 --> 00:55:49.679
Everybody saw a lot of British Columbians saw your vision and were willing to support that direction.
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:54.559
And that's why you received the support from your party, but also from everyday British Columbians.
00:55:54.559 --> 00:55:57.440
Your exit as party leader was unceremonious.
00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:08.239
And so I'm wondering if you could spend a few minutes just talking to the people who voted for you, the people who supported you, kind of like give us your you didn't get to ceremoniously go goodbye.
00:56:08.239 --> 00:56:08.960
Thank you.
00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:12.079
This is this has been a pleasure and where we've taken things.
00:56:12.079 --> 00:56:15.280
The response from reporters is, of course, kind of trying to hammer you.
00:56:15.280 --> 00:56:26.000
I just I want to hear that honest reflection of where you started to where you are today, and and that that farewell address as party leader, potentially for the time being, but still curious.
00:56:27.039 --> 00:56:32.480
Well, you know, I I guess I'm never really good at goodbyes in terms of things, but I'll say this.
00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:36.320
I'm actually I'm very proud of what I was able to accomplish.
00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:43.519
You know, when you think about the Conservative Party has not been formed a government since 1927.
00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:52.079
It was almost a hundred years, and we came within a thousand votes of having more than 50 seats, which would have been a solid majority government.
00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:59.440
And so, you know, I'm very proud of the fact that many people had tried to do something with the Conservative Party over the decades.
00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:05.679
Even WAC Bennett tried to take over the leadership of the Conservative Party and they wouldn't have them.
00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:07.920
So he started the Social Credit Party.
00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:13.039
Think about that, just in terms of where that where that whole movement went.
00:57:13.039 --> 00:57:21.760
You know, I've talked to other leaders that had always in the back of their mind thought, you know, it'd be nice to be able to do something as a conservative party, but the window was never there.
00:57:21.760 --> 00:57:24.960
And so we now have a conservative party in British Columbia.
00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:29.679
And so, like I say, I'm very proud of what we've been able to build as part of that.
00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:35.119
It's unfortunate we weren't able to do the policies that uh we wanted to, because obviously we're in opposition.
00:57:35.119 --> 00:57:56.320
But I think to me, the one thing that is my ask, and I'd like to say it's never been about me in terms of all of this stuff, and I don't want to make it about me now, but that I have one ask, which is do not allow this party to be taken over and corrupted and head off back down the roads that have failed in the past.
00:57:56.320 --> 00:58:04.000
Let's hope this party can continue to be a vehicle that can bring that hope for people in British Columbia.
00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:14.559
I was fortunate in as in the beginning of the election campaign last year, a lady came up to me and she gave me a stone with the word believe carved in the stone.
00:58:14.559 --> 00:58:18.320
And I've carried that stone everywhere I've gone since then.
00:58:18.320 --> 00:58:21.679
And I want that to be what this party does.
00:58:21.679 --> 00:58:26.159
She gave me that stone because she said, You are bringing us hope.
00:58:26.159 --> 00:58:30.480
We believe in this party and we want to believe in our future.
00:58:30.480 --> 00:58:42.079
And to me, that is what the Conservative Party needs to be, is to continue to give people that hope and have people believe that the world can be different and that there can be a prosperous future.
00:58:42.079 --> 00:58:52.239
So that is that's what I'm gonna continue to work on, and that's why I say I'm not going anywhere, unless the NDP carry on destroying this province, which case maybe I'll have to move out and retire somewhere else.
00:58:52.239 --> 00:59:02.960
But in the meantime, I'm gonna do everything I can to keep pushing that agenda that I had, which is to give people that hope that things can improve in this province and you can build a future here.
00:59:03.519 --> 00:59:04.639
Well, thank you, John.
00:59:04.639 --> 00:59:15.119
I I do want to take this back because I think it's important that people understand first, the opportunity to interview you, David Eby, Sonia Fersenow, Kevin Falcon during that period.
00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:17.360
That was the blow-up of the show.
00:59:17.360 --> 00:59:24.639
Uh, I've rebranded from Bigger Than Me podcast to nuance, but that was my opportunity to start to get my feet wet in these types of conversations.
00:59:24.639 --> 00:59:28.000
And you uh and the other party leaders provided that opportunity to me.
00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:29.199
So it was a huge privilege.
00:59:29.199 --> 00:59:31.199
I don't think I asked soft questions.
00:59:31.199 --> 00:59:34.559
I think I always try and ask tough questions in a respectful way.
00:59:34.559 --> 00:59:43.920
But then now you also agreed to, I think it's worth people knowing, you agreed to do this when you were still party leader and you still were willing to come on after everything that's happened.
00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:50.320
And that means a great deal to young journalists like myself trying to carve my path and ask good questions.
00:59:50.320 --> 00:59:59.760
People really appreciated the long form understanding of what your thoughts are and how you arrive at them rather than two minute bits here and there and having to watch 15 different videos to understand what you're thinking.
00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:02.159
And so I'm just I'm very grateful for that.
01:00:02.159 --> 01:00:08.400
That's why I have a more thoughtful tone to this conversation, is because I'm grateful for you willing to do this today.
01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:13.519
I'm amazed at how good spirits you're in, considering everything that you've just been through.
01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:20.320
I think I'd be just trying to lay low and just de decompress from all the pressure and stress and everything that you must have faced.
01:00:20.320 --> 01:00:26.239
So I'm just very grateful for the respect you've shown to people willing to ask questions and for you willing to share your time.
01:00:26.239 --> 01:00:28.559
This has been a very enlightening conversation.
01:00:28.880 --> 01:00:30.320
Well, Erin, thank you for having me on.
01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:34.960
And you know, I was after I had resigned, my wife was down to Victoria.
01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:39.360
And uh we actually went out on a date and did some things that we hadn't done in many years, right?
01:00:39.360 --> 01:00:45.920
We went to see White Christmas and we went, you know, out to some other Christmas events and things around Victoria.
01:00:45.920 --> 01:00:56.719
But while we were talking while we're sitting there doing that, we actually talked and came to the realization that over the last three years, you know, 1100, 1200 days, and we've only spent about 220 days together.
01:00:56.719 --> 01:01:00.880
And so I'm very much looking forward to a little bit more time at home.
01:01:00.880 --> 01:01:05.280
And uh I know for a fact that my bird is very happy to have me home as well.
01:01:06.079 --> 01:01:07.360
I I'm glad to hear that.
01:01:07.360 --> 01:01:10.239
I'm glad that you're able to breathe a little bit.
01:01:10.239 --> 01:01:13.199
I think it's also worth remembering we're all human, right?
01:01:13.199 --> 01:01:17.920
A lot of the time when you're in that position, people start to see you as just a an error of politics.
01:01:17.920 --> 01:01:19.039
But you're a human being.
01:01:19.039 --> 01:01:26.559
You go home after some of these comments, and after reading a harsh newsletter or comment or something, you have to carry that home.
01:01:26.559 --> 01:01:28.480
And you and family is where it belongs.
01:01:28.480 --> 01:01:36.239
I think I saw one of your MLAs, uh Gavin Dew, just comment he's not running and he just wants to focus on his family and serve British Columbians.
01:01:36.239 --> 01:01:41.280
And I think that's the the right tone to set as we move forward is we're all just people trying to do our best.
01:01:41.280 --> 01:01:46.960
We disagree on the policies and the politics, but it's important that we remember we're all people just trying to thrive in our great province.
01:01:47.440 --> 01:01:51.840
I tell you how I get get by, you know, with all that kind of turmoil and all those things are happening.
01:01:51.840 --> 01:01:56.719
I never read stories about myself, I never watch myself in the media, so it is what it is.
01:01:56.719 --> 01:02:03.679
So that it makes it easier to get by because you don't have to worry about you know that kind of that kind of nonsense that goes on.
01:02:03.679 --> 01:02:04.800
But you know what?
01:02:04.800 --> 01:02:09.199
Like I say, there are lots of big issues, and I'm not gonna be shy about talking about them.
01:02:09.199 --> 01:02:18.880
And you know, a big one that we should talk about in the future, because it's a question that we are going to need to touch on to, and that is do we push for constitutional amendments?
01:02:18.880 --> 01:02:20.719
And I think we're going to need to.
01:02:20.719 --> 01:02:22.960
And that, and so what does that look like?
01:02:22.960 --> 01:02:26.239
And and what should British Company be pushing for in terms of those changes?
01:02:26.239 --> 01:02:29.119
So, but let's leave that perhaps for another opportunity.
01:02:29.360 --> 01:02:32.079
That sounds like a great cliffhanger for the next episode.
01:02:32.079 --> 01:02:33.599
You're more than welcome anytime.
01:02:33.599 --> 01:02:36.079
Thank you again, John Rustad, for joining us today.
01:02:36.079 --> 01:02:47.679
Thanks for having me on the