Building Mantra and Returning to Development Principles w/ Kgothatso Ngako

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I consider myself a catalyst and most of the work I do is for the purpose of accelerating
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the adoption of Bitcoin, primarily across the African continent, but of course,
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the technology can be applied anywhere else in the world.
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What's going on, everybody? Just a quick message here before we dive into today's episode. First,
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I want to say that I was really excited to speak with KG. He's one of my favorite builders in the
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Bitcoin and Freedom Tech space, and I was very happy to see him releasing some new tech this
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week. It's called Mantra, and we're going to get into what Mantra is in this episode.
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What I also wanted to do here was also give you some background on what KG has created in the past.
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He's most well known for creating technology called Machankura, and this is an app that allows
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you to send Bitcoin over feature phones, non-smartphones, if you will, like those old Nokia phones.
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So I think it's incredible that he's made this Bitcoin accessible to people who don't have
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smartphones or even an internet connection for that matter. This is the kind of stuff I love to
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see builders building in the Bitcoin space. As for this episode, I wanted to give you a heads up that
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we do go into depth on what Mantra is and how KG built it. He used really cool open source tech
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like Noster, Frost, a bunch of other open source tech that you might be unfamiliar with.
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And it might be a little bit much to listen to this first part of the episode where we really
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dive deep on how the tech works, which tech he included, all of that stuff.
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Now, I know some of you out there will really like that.
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And for everyone out there who's into that kind of stuff, please enjoy every word KG has to share.
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For those who feel a little bit overwhelmed by the first half of the episode or what we first
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talk about, please feel free to skip ahead to maybe about halfway through the episode.
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That's when we start talking about a lot of the issues we've been facing in the Bitcoin
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space, things like the cold card hack, the bolts hack, the liquid hack, all that kind
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of stuff.
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We discussed how to approach these challenges and why it's important for builders to keep
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building despite these setbacks or challenges that we're currently facing.
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I have a feeling that this portion of the episode will resonate with more people.
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So if you feel a little lost at the beginning, I recommend skipping ahead to some of the later chapters of the episode.
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Also, one other thing, I was really excited to talk with KG about Mantra because my background or my work before getting into the Bitcoin space was teaching language.
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So I was an English teacher for 12 years and Mantra helps with translations.
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So different translations from one African language to another.
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So it was really cool to kind of revisit this idea of how people who speak different languages are obtaining information about Bitcoin.
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So just a quick note on that.
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Finally, if you could please subscribe, like, and leave a comment if you're listening on YouTube, I would greatly appreciate that.
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Please leave a rating and review if you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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I hate being annoying and asking for this kind of stuff, but I tried to prioritize having guests on this show who are doing incredible work.
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Many of those guests, though, might not have as big a profile as some of the bigger podcasters or bigger personalities in the Bitcoin space.
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But I think the work that they're doing is essential and it needs to be heard.
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And one of the ways to help get it heard is for people to for you to leave a rating review, do things that basically help boost us in the algorithm.
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So if you could do that, I would sincerely appreciate it.
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I want to thank you in advance for doing that.
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And now let us get to the episode.
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Here is my conversation with Hogatatsu Nagako KG, creator of Machankora, Exonomia, and the newest tech he's recently released, Mantra.
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All right. Welcome, everybody. Frank here, here with a guest coming to us from South Africa.
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Hogatatsu Nagako KG for short, founder of Machankora, founder of Exonomia, and now Mantra, which I think falls under the umbrella of Exonomia.
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Please pardon me if I'm pronouncing that incorrectly.
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But basically a translation service to make sure that people who speak multiple African or I think 21 different languages in different parts of Africa can get access to the same sorts of Bitcoin education materials that many of us around the world have access to.
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So Mantra is what we'll be discussing today.
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It's a tool that KG built.
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I think he said it actually took a few years, five years if I'm not mistaken.
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A number of different technologies included in this.
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So I think Nostar, Frost, the Marmot Protocol, the Bitcoin's Lightning Network, a number of different components that make Mantra up.
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And we're going to break all that down in this interview.
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I just wanted to kind of make a personal note before we get started here.
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I'm super excited to have KG on.
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I'm a huge fan of not only the way that he builds, but the fact that he builds with principles.
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and just has a very,
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I've had many interesting conversations with him
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on camera and off over the last few years.
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And I'm also just personally very excited
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to see tech like this being built right now.
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Bear markets are for buildings,
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for building as they say.
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And I think what I understand so far about Mantra
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is super cool.
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And I think it going to have a really cool impact within the communities that you aim for it to have an impact within But let me stop my rambling there KG Let me pass it over to you Maybe just a quick introduction of yourself
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And then let's dive in with maybe an overview of what you're doing with Exonomia in particular.
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Cool.
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So, yeah, I am Kotatsu Narko from South Africa, Boydian, Bradent, Victoria.
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Some people may know it as Elon Musk's hometown.
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But, yeah, he hasn't been here in a while.
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And so I consider myself a catalyst and most of the work I do is for the purpose of accelerating the adoption of Bitcoin, primarily across the African continent.
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But of course, the technology can be applied anywhere else in the world.
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And yeah, so Exxonumia was actually one of the first Bitcoin related projects I started.
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and its purpose is to just translate Bitcoin literature into African languages.
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So we've been doing that, I think, since maybe 2018, 2019.
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The website for it, exonumia.africa, was actually inspired by Wikipedia.
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But actually, the first version of it was running on the Wikipedia shell or code.
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I think it's called Wikimedia or something like that.
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And that is the first place I learned about the importance of decentralization because I had a server for it.
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And, you know, since it's a side project, I didn't show it too much love.
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One of these days, the card that was paying for that server expired.
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And I didn't see any of the emails that said, oh, we cannot bill you.
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So the server or the billing expired and then the server got shut down.
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And I only noticed when I eventually visited the website and I was like, oh, this website has been down.
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I paid, website got up again, but server effectively lost all the data that was on it.
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So then I was like, OK, maybe for the next version, we need something that's decentralized.
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because on another hand, we only stored the content on the server.
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If you know how Wikipedia works, you just type it in and then it publishes it.
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So we needed a way to do our publishing decentralized.
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And yeah, I think developer docs were the closest thing
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because you keep a copy on your machine
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and then you keep a copy on the server that's actually hosting the doc.
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So we just took Viewpress and then made the current version of Xenumia out of that.
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And yeah, so that was the closest thing to decentralization at the time.
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But and at the time as well, we were only supporting, I think, around 10 languages or so or even less, maybe five.
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But yeah, actually, no, 10.
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and we were mainly looking to translate the Bitcoin white paper into like the 10 biggest
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African languages, your Swahili's, your Igbo's, it's just a long list. And so that was when the
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need for an internal translation management tool came about because we were like, oh,
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damn, these are so many languages, how do we keep track? And also, let's take the Bitcoin white paper,
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we would then get multiple translators.
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One would do a section, introduction, abstract.
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Another would do the next section, transactions.
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Another would do whatever else, right?
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And then it became evident that we couldn't maintain that workflow
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without a system in place.
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So I just wrote some code on my machine,
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and that effectively became our translation management tool.
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were literally a server running on my machine because I never bothered deploying it until we
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were like, yo, you need to deploy that. And I deployed it. But then it was the first alpha
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version of mantra. And I didn't want to do account management and stuff like that. And around that
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time, the 2021s or 2022s, Nostra happened, right? We're getting notes and other stuff transmitted
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over relays. And then I was like, this is so perfect for what we are doing with Mantra or what
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we're doing at Exonumia. I don't need to do account management. Everything is signed
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cryptographically, so on and so forth. I just need to map that this piece of text links to this
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translation and this book and, you know, all of that jazz. So then I set out to do it. But then I
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realize that some of our content wasn't open source, right? Shout out to Nick Pataille, who
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wrote Layered Money and sold us the, well, gave us the rights, but, you know, it was a sale
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just on paper I sold us the rights to publish translations of Layered Money in African languages on Oxenumia But out of respect for his work I didn want to then you know publish his entire book in thousands of notes
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that a person could then piece back together to get the full book. Of course, he's free to publish
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that on his own website. But then, you know, there's a reason why he would publish it on his
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own website and not want it available everywhere else. So at the time, Nostra wasn't too good with
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private messaging, right? Recently, by maybe two or three years, it improved a bit with NIP 17,
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which is gift wraps. But even there, it's a great privacy improvement, but a bad coordination
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improvement. The bad of it all is in if you have a NIP 17 group on Nostra, once you add a new member,
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you are creating a new group and you're effectively leaving this group, right? So
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the group is identified by the set of people within the group, right? And yeah, so that was
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for me ridiculous because we do the management, we set up the scaffolding, and then we bring in
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translators, right? So the translators need to find everything ready to translate. So,
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yeah, so if we're going to add the translator to the group, and it ends up creating a new group,
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what is that going to achieve anyway? So we need all that history.
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Okay. Yeah, keep going, please.
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Yes. So yeah, then we kind of paused the work a bit. But then,
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And, you know, I got to focus more on Machangura, did a lot of the stuff with Frost where we implemented an on-chain processor using the, what did we use on Frost?
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I think we used, oh yeah, the Frostnap were the guys who made the library.
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And so we have three or five assigners set up on our on-chain processor.
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And, you know, I just built that out.
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And I always thought that the force was basically the ideal tool for organizations or teams.
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So if you're doing something as a team, make the team members all sign off on it.
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And then we all agree that that is cool.
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Then over the years, I met Jeff G.
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And I was like, oh, what are you doing in Bitcoin?
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and then he just went on a rant about MLS and it's this thing,
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it's that thing and whatever else.
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And I was like, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo.
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I'm not too big into private messaging,
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but it looks like what you're doing is solving a number of problems
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I've been trying to work on.
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So if it's ever ready, let me know and I'll build something for it.
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Which is a funny story because the thing I told him about
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was a chat app called Torch, right, which is coming soon, coming soon.
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You told me about this a while back.
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You've been working on that as well.
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Exactly.
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So multi-year projects all around.
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So, yeah, so then, and then Mermot came out.
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Jeff built it out, and it was good.
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It had issues, but for me, there's some issues I can live with, right?
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So it had issues I can live with.
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And he worked on an update.
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So I think now he's about to push out the next update for a moment
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or white noise, wonderful work.
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So I'm probably going to have to spend some time as well
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to catch up with the updates he introduced.
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But anyway, then I was like,
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I could still make my stuff work conceptually.
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And yeah, that's where we built out.
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Why did we build out Mantra?
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But funny enough, I built out all of those projects I was telling you about in phases, right?
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So I have a nostra client called Ox.
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And then when it got to a point where I was happy with it, I forked it.
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And then I built the chat app called Torch, right?
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And then when I was happy with it, I forked it and I built Mantra, right?
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And now Mantra is the mature versions of all these guys.
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so I'm going to now reverse fork
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Mantra, remove features
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from Mantra to get Torch
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and then I'm going to reverse fork Torch
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and remove features to get Orcs again
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because
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I've fixed a lot of bugs along the way
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I'm going to drop all of that
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code
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so that is
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the backstory
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the non-technical backstory
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of course the other side
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of it is
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That's the non-technical.
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Yeah, that's the non-technical.
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That is what happened.
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If it was a movie,
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that would have been what was shown.
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Okay.
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Fair enough.
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Please continue.
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I have plenty of stuff to kind of dig into,
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but I want to hear the full overview first.
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Oh, yeah.
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Oh yeah Well I think the other project to shout out is uh quartz um by vito uh the guy who uh building emethyst so um i used his library for the mls or the mormont side of the
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code in mantra and yeah so i think um him um jb and uh i forgot the ux utxo club i think is his
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name but there's so many utxos i get them mixed up but the guy who built um uh what's this wasp so
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these are i think the nostril clients i looked at when when i was building these apps i looked at
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wasp amethyst and uh damas and i was like okay these just to be clear is it wisp or wasp i think
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it's wisp the new the new nostril oh yeah yes yes it's this uh i'm i'm not dyslexic but i might as
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as well be right so um yeah and these guys for me every time i wanted to see how something works
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in nostril right i i would open a nostril app right and a lot of them they didn't work well
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and then i would open like a daimos uh or wisp uh or amethyst and then it would just work and i was
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I was like, why can't these other guys see the source, right?
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That it's open source.
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So might as well just, you know, learn from it.
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So, yeah, I think they really did a great job there.
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Yeah, and I think that's pretty much it.
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Oh, yeah, and then Mantra had all these workflows to it,
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translation workflows that I'm like, okay,
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now we don't need to do account management.
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You just do an XPUB.
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Oh, when what I wanted to do was marry the concept of the group to the frost key.
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And then I learned that Mermot allows you to set your own group ID, which is then being set to the frost key.
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And then, yeah, it just works out so beautifully.
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And any member doesn't need any other information to verify group signed events
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because the group ID is literally the pop key being used to sign group signed events.
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Well, at least being used to verify group signed events.
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So, yeah.
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Amazing.
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I appreciate that overview.
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And I'm going to try to break it down for those who might not be as familiar with some of the tech
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or just generally not as technical minded.
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So I just wanted to get also a broader idea now too.
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So in terms of the amount of languages that are getting translated between or into,
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I believe that's now over 20, if I'm not mistaken.
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It's over 20.
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I think even now the project has gone off the website.
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So I think we have some languages that we've translated that are not on the website,
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but they are in other projects.
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I think like Kukuyu and Somali, but I think we've had Somali.
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Okay, very cool.
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And so when it comes to mantra in particular,
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this is a tool for people doing the translation work.
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Is that the best way to think about it?
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No, I think it's mainly a tool for the administrators of the translation work.
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Okay, so who would those people be?
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Who would say, okay, I see that, let's say the Bitcoin standard is in Swahili,
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and I want to have it in this African language now.
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Who's going to be the person that kind of sets that in motion?
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yeah okay so i think one major party is the guy at um consensus network right um okay yeah so i
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think he's the profile of the type of person who had said that emotion because i think consensus
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consensus network has overseen a number of translations uh for the bitcoin standard right
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um okay but i think they also have their own workflow um and yeah so i'll probably have a
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conversation with him to ask him, yo, what do you think of this tool and how it would help managing
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a translation? Okay, very cool. And Consensus Network, is it based, is it a global company?
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Is it based in a particular country? I think it's European, but because translations, usually you'll
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have to do international translations. So I'm guessing they should be considered like a global
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thing okay very cool so this is a tool for people then who are going to initiate this process of
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getting these getting these texts translated could you it probably be easier to walk through this
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it's kind of like bitcoin it's like it's harder to explain than it is to just show somebody how
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to use some app but if we can walk through it a little bit so somebody decides they want to do a
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certain translation they get mantra and now maybe kind of a balance between what it looks like from
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from a user interface and then maybe the technology that's being utilized behind
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as the user is doing what they're doing.
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The other, the reason I ask this is because in my mind, I'm thinking,
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so you're looking at this interface, maybe you're inputting certain information.
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Let's take Nick Bakhtia's book, as you mentioned, Layered Money.
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So you want this translated into a language that's currently into another one.
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Are you going to just take chunks, drop it in and say, hey,
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let's do this piece by piece and then your
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bring together the full document on your end as the publishing company or whoever's going to end
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up issuing this this version of the text in another language what does the process look like as you're
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as you're using the app and walking through it okay can i share my screen uh it's a good question
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actually let me i think there's a share button do you have the share button at the bottom of your
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screen as well i do i do let's do it let's give it a shot then yeah so for those who are listening
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on audio um i apologize we'll we'll do the best i can i'll do the best i can to maybe
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prompt kg anything that we can explain verbally we'll do it otherwise please check this out on
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either youtube or fountain so uh yeah let's walk through it a little bit cool uh let me start off
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by you know um going to mantra on all of these different virtual phones and yeah so yeah basically
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this is how it would look like.
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I have a small demonstration over here.
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So when you're in the group,
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you see all of the things in the library.
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So let's make an example using,
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I think, the Bitcoin white paper,
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but let me use the actual title,
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which is, I forgot it,
285
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because everyone just calls it the Bitcoin white paper.
286
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So, yeah, cool.
287
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One quick thing, KG. I'm sorry. I don't mean to interrupt you. I just want to try to clarify this for people as we go. When you say the group, who would be in this group? Who would be the members of this group?
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Yeah, so it would be the administrators of the project. So if we look at Exonumia, it would be me, Momo, Sia, which are the directors of the organization. And then they take it from there, basically.
289
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and then okay cool then it when you have a new book to add it becomes a proposal and the other
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members can then review your proposal they can you can see all the other proposals in the list
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and they see the title of the artifact you're adding the version number the url we can do more
292
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to preview but for now it's just simplicity and then now it's signed so now it becomes one of the
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books in the library. So you can add a chapter, right? So let me add the introduction is actually
294
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at okay, but let me do the abstract first, because this is actually going to come out in order.
295
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So we're going to do add the abstract and then assign that. Okay, cool.
296
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And when you're signing it, what are you doing when you sign it? What's happening there?
297
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So basically when we sign, it initiates approval session with all the other members.
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And then we need two of the four members in Exonumia to sign off on the event.
299
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And then it uses Frost to then produce a signature based on the group key, which is also the group ID.
300
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And so now I can maybe just add an introduction again.
301
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Okay, cool. And you asked a question about chunking, right?
302
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So yeah, in terms of, again, you have somebody who wants to start translating this text.
303
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What sorts of chunks are they doing that in?
304
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Yes.
305
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Yeah. So the main idea is technically this should be easier, right?
306
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So I should have been able to just give this project a PDF or latex or markdown,
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and then it should have been able to figure out, oh, this is a chapter,
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and these are whatever else. But since we're still early on, I'm just going to show it to you
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here. So what we're currently doing is we are chunking by paragraph, right? So when I pasted
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the chapter, it showed you two chunks, but there's a more complete way of chunking. I think
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by sentence is better, but I'll go into that later because this paragraph is very long. So now when
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the translator gets to translating, it becomes problematic. But let me just sign this for now.
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And then just show you that part. So since this is new, we can then add a Sissotu, we can add a
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Sissotu translation of that. And all of those things we just defined are going to the Sissotu
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translation and yeah oh cool oh and i forgot to show you something so oh this is the other thing
316
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we did right so you see it says you are signing three events signed together
317
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i i see it yes it's a little bit small on my screen but i see where you're pointing to
318
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okay i'm sorry i cannot zoom because i have too many screens yeah so um there is actually the thing
319
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that helps the workflow right Because we can batch sign stuff And due to also the fact that Nostra event IDs don change after signature we can then batch sign stuff And yeah so it possible that this whole workflow that I showing can be one step instead of oh I do this send it to sign
320
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I do this and send it to sign.
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But yeah, because early days, we're just going to show it.
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And at least we also show that the batching is there.
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And the other thing with the batching is limited by the message length.
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So I think at most we can do like 64 events in a batch so that the message isn't too big.
325
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And yeah, so yeah, let me see.
326
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Can I ask one quick question here?
327
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So when you're signing this, is this for the sake of someone's commissioning you to do this work,
328
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then they have to sign off on the fact that it's done?
329
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Is that correct?
330
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And my question then is that once it's signed off on, does that initiate a Bitcoin payment over the Lightning Network somewhere?
331
00:27:00,788 --> 00:27:04,008
I'm trying to think about what's the purpose to having this signed off on.
332
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Is it an approval mechanism?
333
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Does that trigger, like I said, a payment?
334
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How does that process work?
335
00:27:09,408 --> 00:27:11,788
Yeah, so I think all of that is future work.
336
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So for now, none of that factors in.
337
00:27:15,788 --> 00:27:25,228
I think if you look at the screen, we have a project section, but we don't really have functionality for that yet.
338
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And the other thing we want to do is like bounties and things like that, crowd funds to do translations.
339
00:27:36,468 --> 00:27:44,448
But when you're signing as a group, you're just signing off the work to say, okay, the work is ready.
340
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right uh or the work was done so um because the other thing is
341
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even if everything is done here what needs to get published it looks nothing like this
342
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right what needs to get published has to be on the website it has to be um the typeset so on and
343
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so forth so that is a separate um piece of work but at least this is structured enough that once
344
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we get to that step, we just plug stuff in and then everything works.
345
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Right.
346
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Okay.
347
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Yeah.
348
00:28:18,728 --> 00:28:22,108
And then when you're translating, this is then what you see.
349
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You see the chapter.
350
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So the introduction has two chunks.
351
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Okay.
352
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Yeah.
353
00:28:27,588 --> 00:28:30,668
So you can then say blah, blah, blah.
354
00:28:30,788 --> 00:28:37,788
But obviously this is not a valid translation, but just to show what's happening, we're just
355
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going to do that.
356
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and the reviewer signs off on it
357
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and then the reviewer, the other member at least could then see
358
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what happened in the Sasoto translation
359
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where there's one thing translated
360
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and is that blah, blah, blah
361
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and, you know, they can also add to the translation
362
00:28:58,848 --> 00:29:01,688
blah, blah
363
00:29:01,688 --> 00:29:05,308
Oh, and I've never done this, so I wonder what will happen
364
00:29:05,308 --> 00:29:13,148
Yeah. I've never re-translated a chunk. So let's see.
365
00:29:16,908 --> 00:29:20,028
Oh, okay. Yeah. So it updates the previous thing. So, okay, cool.
366
00:29:22,428 --> 00:29:28,188
Yeah. So that is the workflow in a nutshell. The other thing for us was,
367
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obviously the group can get big, right? So we are the admins, but we then have to engage with
368
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the translator so we could have a subgroup of Sosoto translators. The subgroup knows who the
369
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parent is. The parent obviously knows who the subgroup is by going back. And so our thinking is
370
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in this subgroup, we can have a different set of admins.
371
00:29:58,688 --> 00:30:09,548
And the reasoning is obviously the people who would be good at administrating for the Sasoto language
372
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are very different from the people who would be good for administrating for the organization.
373
00:30:16,168 --> 00:30:24,268
right um the only thing that we need to do uh after this point is to ensure that any of the
374
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work that's done in this part of the in the subgroup actually feeds back into the parent group
375
00:30:30,348 --> 00:30:35,988
right uh and we have to validate and um due to the fact that um oh we we have this
376
00:30:35,988 --> 00:30:44,648
silly thing this stupid idea called a birth certificate right so um every time um a group
377
00:30:44,648 --> 00:30:50,748
a subgroup gets made, it needs its birth certificate signed by its parent.
378
00:30:51,268 --> 00:30:53,888
So somewhere here is a birth certificate.
379
00:30:54,508 --> 00:30:55,948
But the birth certificate, oh, yeah, here it is.
380
00:30:56,208 --> 00:31:05,448
The birth certificate then effectively allows the parent to verify work that comes from the child.
381
00:31:06,048 --> 00:31:09,908
And, yeah, of course, the child can always verify work that comes from the parent.
382
00:31:09,908 --> 00:31:22,164
But the other thing to it is the subgroup is actually independent of the parent So it has its own thing
383
00:31:22,304 --> 00:31:23,344
It has its own chat.
384
00:31:24,384 --> 00:31:33,584
And this is how we end up in a situation where we can invite a different set of members into this group.
385
00:31:33,584 --> 00:31:41,824
right, like, yeah, and so this group can probably, if it's managed, well, it can probably do better
386
00:31:41,824 --> 00:31:49,984
than the main group. If they end up having a bigger library than the main project, because
387
00:31:50,544 --> 00:31:57,584
here's another limiter for the main project, Xenumia. As much as we'd like to have so as much
388
00:31:57,584 --> 00:32:03,744
literature as we want, we have to always check, yo, are we going to be able to translate
389
00:32:04,784 --> 00:32:11,584
this book or this article in all of the languages we support? And most of the times,
390
00:32:11,584 --> 00:32:18,704
the answer is no, because it really took a lot of time and a lot of effort, including money,
391
00:32:19,264 --> 00:32:27,104
for some of the languages that we have. So, exonumia at some point is going to be like,
392
00:32:27,104 --> 00:32:28,284
Like, okay, this is it.
393
00:32:28,384 --> 00:32:33,404
This is all the languages or all the content we're going to support.
394
00:32:33,844 --> 00:32:37,524
We may even end up reducing the content that we support.
395
00:32:37,884 --> 00:32:41,444
And we're going to say, oh, if you're translating, translate this.
396
00:32:41,864 --> 00:32:47,884
But if you have a special interest, feel free to do that in the subgroup.
397
00:32:48,244 --> 00:32:50,144
The subgroup has the same facilities.
398
00:32:52,144 --> 00:32:56,044
Maybe what was Bitcoin Jesus' book named?
399
00:32:56,044 --> 00:32:59,244
Bitcoin got robbed or hijacking Bitcoin.
400
00:32:59,624 --> 00:33:00,544
Hijacking Bitcoin.
401
00:33:00,864 --> 00:33:01,084
Yes.
402
00:33:01,644 --> 00:33:02,624
So hijacking Bitcoin.
403
00:33:02,904 --> 00:33:05,344
And this is the perfect example, right?
404
00:33:05,384 --> 00:33:12,324
Because obviously we wouldn't translate a hijacking Bitcoin.
405
00:33:12,684 --> 00:33:18,944
Oh, it doesn't have dialects, but then the subgroup is free to work on that.
406
00:33:19,564 --> 00:33:23,044
And the subgroup should at this point be its own community.
407
00:33:23,044 --> 00:33:31,364
community. And yeah, so we don't want to have an overwhelming influence on the whole community,
408
00:33:31,364 --> 00:33:38,284
because the translation community, the other side of it is it's so big. Even just in South Africa,
409
00:33:39,224 --> 00:33:47,864
the Susoto, Zulu, Xhosa, Afrikaans, these are very different sets of people. And at some point,
410
00:33:47,864 --> 00:33:55,964
I feel like we cannot be the people who make decisions on behalf of this group.
411
00:33:55,964 --> 00:34:01,424
But the main thing we would want is if there is an overlapping interest,
412
00:34:01,644 --> 00:34:07,764
obviously it would be great for all of the work that's done here to then feed back into the parent group.
413
00:34:08,304 --> 00:34:08,924
So, yeah.
414
00:34:09,444 --> 00:34:09,724
Okay.
415
00:34:10,004 --> 00:34:10,324
Okay.
416
00:34:10,384 --> 00:34:11,024
So that's interesting.
417
00:34:11,304 --> 00:34:14,684
So you're allowing people to make their own decisions,
418
00:34:14,684 --> 00:34:19,564
but ultimately at the end of that chain, it's getting approved by the parent group.
419
00:34:19,564 --> 00:34:23,564
Is that the purpose for it? Does the parent group have to approve it?
420
00:34:23,564 --> 00:34:27,884
Or is it something that can happen at a different level that can happen?
421
00:34:27,884 --> 00:34:34,684
Yeah. Well, the parent group obviously always approves whatever it issues.
422
00:34:34,684 --> 00:34:39,884
So things that are in the parent group will always be approved by the parent group.
423
00:34:39,884 --> 00:34:43,044
Subgroups can pull in work from the parent group.
424
00:34:43,044 --> 00:34:45,724
It's just that I don't think we've implemented it now.
425
00:34:45,924 --> 00:34:49,164
But then subgroups can also start their own project.
426
00:34:51,204 --> 00:34:55,284
The parent group obviously will never pull in work
427
00:34:55,284 --> 00:34:58,244
that was never started in the parent group.
428
00:34:59,004 --> 00:35:02,644
And so, yeah, well, let me not say never because
429
00:35:03,484 --> 00:35:08,444
the parent group will never pull in work that was started in the in
430
00:35:09,884 --> 00:35:11,724
I think you said in the parent group.
431
00:35:11,804 --> 00:35:12,944
I just want to make sure we had the right.
432
00:35:13,024 --> 00:35:14,064
In the subgroup, yes.
433
00:35:14,224 --> 00:35:15,144
In the subgroup, right.
434
00:35:15,264 --> 00:35:15,704
Okay, cool.
435
00:35:16,024 --> 00:35:16,364
Got it.
436
00:35:16,624 --> 00:35:16,764
Yeah.
437
00:35:17,064 --> 00:35:19,444
But I shouldn't say never because, you know.
438
00:35:20,824 --> 00:35:21,224
Okay.
439
00:35:21,364 --> 00:35:24,964
A question about all of this is that, so I'm thinking about it from practical terms.
440
00:35:25,504 --> 00:35:26,924
It's amazing what you've created.
441
00:35:27,044 --> 00:35:28,144
This is super, super interesting.
442
00:35:28,344 --> 00:35:31,824
I also think it looks, I think it's a little tough.
443
00:35:32,144 --> 00:35:35,704
You know, it's maybe the screen is a little bit small, but generally speaking, the interface
444
00:35:35,704 --> 00:35:38,904
is very clean, especially the translation interface.
445
00:35:39,044 --> 00:35:39,804
Very, very simple.
446
00:35:39,884 --> 00:35:44,424
which is great and it kind of i get the vibe here just like yeah you could just kind of pick this up
447
00:35:44,424 --> 00:35:48,464
and work on what you want to work on whenever you want to work on it but i'm wondering if when it
448
00:35:48,464 --> 00:35:53,124
comes to hiring people to do this work or paying people to do this work does any of that get
449
00:35:53,124 --> 00:35:57,424
coordinated within the app or is that something that would happen via other messaging services or
450
00:35:57,424 --> 00:36:05,404
other apps uh it depends um so um i think we're gonna end up obviously having import and export
451
00:36:05,404 --> 00:36:12,684
functionality. On the two, on the centralized version of this, we did have an import and export
452
00:36:12,684 --> 00:36:19,004
functionality. I'm just going to stop sharing my screen just now. And yeah, so, and the thinking of
453
00:36:19,004 --> 00:36:34,260
it is effectively oh let me add back some light to my face Effectively the translators are all different There are some translators who are actually tech savvy
454
00:36:34,380 --> 00:36:36,820
Well, they enjoy even using technology.
455
00:36:37,060 --> 00:36:39,540
So those ones, we're going to just add them directly,
456
00:36:40,260 --> 00:36:42,760
make them a member, maybe even make them an admin
457
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,680
for their specific languages.
458
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,900
But most translators, we just give them a spreadsheet.
459
00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:54,320
and they work from there and then send it back and then we import back the spreadsheet.
460
00:36:55,160 --> 00:37:00,220
And yeah, but the whole idea is meet the user where the user is.
461
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,140
But if ever the user is comfortable with using the tool,
462
00:37:05,340 --> 00:37:10,060
then the tool should make it easy to, you know, engage with the community.
463
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,180
Okay. And then from, I'm thinking of this, I know you talked about this initially
464
00:37:14,180 --> 00:37:17,160
or Exonomia in general as a side project.
465
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,120
Has that changed?
466
00:37:19,260 --> 00:37:20,900
Is Machancora still your primary focus,
467
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,020
whereas this is a side project?
468
00:37:22,100 --> 00:37:24,880
I only say that because given all of the technologies
469
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:26,140
you've incorporated here,
470
00:37:26,180 --> 00:37:28,600
I'm sure there was somewhat of a learning curve for you.
471
00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:31,400
Even like you said, Exonomia started before Nostra
472
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:32,100
was even a thing,
473
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:33,820
and that seems to be one of the main technologies
474
00:37:33,820 --> 00:37:35,060
you use to create this.
475
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,580
So I'm wondering, is there a monetization scheme here?
476
00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:40,360
Like, would there be a fee to use this,
477
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,320
or is this just because you want to create it?
478
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,560
Yeah, well, there is a bigger plan, right?
479
00:37:45,780 --> 00:37:51,620
So I think the other thing is Machangura is very high stakes.
480
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:58,040
So it's very hard for me to experiment, especially these days.
481
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:05,680
So there's a need for so many new features in Machangura,
482
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,620
but I want to be comfortable with some of these things, right?
483
00:38:10,620 --> 00:38:21,720
So we're already using Frost, but then I'm like, okay, how do I put Frost in the user's hands, not in the back end?
484
00:38:23,300 --> 00:38:27,440
And we have Machangura Clans. I don't know if you know about that.
485
00:38:29,180 --> 00:38:30,920
Clans, C-L-A-N-S?
486
00:38:31,420 --> 00:38:31,780
Yes.
487
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,400
I don't know. I'm not familiar with it.
488
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:42,480
yeah, so it's basically a way for a group of people to hold Bitcoin, right? So they set up
489
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:47,700
the group and they set up a policy that for funds to be moved in this group, these many people need
490
00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:54,360
to sign off on it. That's basically, you know, nudge nudge, whatever this is, except for Bitcoin
491
00:38:54,360 --> 00:39:07,300
value. So I've been working on making a self custody version of Machangora. And so all of
492
00:39:07,300 --> 00:39:18,520
this can feed back into that. Right. But even now, if you see the mantra doesn't have any payment
493
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:29,160
related logic. But fun fact, it has a node, a Lightning node on it already. It's just not active.
494
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:41,400
But then again, from the point of monetization, yes, I think Mantra can have its own monetization
495
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,440
scheme moving forward.
496
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:52,100
And I think it's also something that Exonomia kind of needs because, yeah, you know, it's
497
00:39:52,100 --> 00:39:58,640
a, I'm almost thinking about it as like a sister company to Exonomia instead of a sub
498
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,460
subsidiary of Exonomia.
499
00:40:01,820 --> 00:40:03,500
So, yeah.
500
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:10,820
And the reasoning is I've looked at the existing translation management tools, Transifix,
501
00:40:10,820 --> 00:40:20,200
weblet and all of them and they are kind of built for a specific type of user right um and yeah i
502
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:25,740
want this to be flexible and i want this to be like oh primarily it's a chat interface um
503
00:40:25,740 --> 00:40:32,380
everything else is away from the chat but you will see it in the chat that oh this is happening
504
00:40:32,380 --> 00:40:38,540
um and even the one quick question there when you say specific type of user i don't want to get too
505
00:40:38,540 --> 00:40:39,660
far away from that comment.
506
00:40:39,820 --> 00:40:42,520
I just wanted, who were these other applications built for?
507
00:40:42,620 --> 00:40:43,880
And then who are you trying to reach?
508
00:40:44,100 --> 00:40:48,700
What is the difference between who these other apps are built for and then who you're trying
509
00:40:48,700 --> 00:40:49,120
to reach?
510
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:49,900
Yeah.
511
00:40:50,060 --> 00:40:55,800
So I think in my experience with platforms like Transifix and Weblet, I've generally
512
00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:02,020
had to do the translation on the main app or on the main website.
513
00:41:02,020 --> 00:41:06,900
I couldn't press a button, download anything.
514
00:41:06,900 --> 00:41:08,820
It doesn't matter what format they choose.
515
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:14,360
And then once I'm done working, come back and upload.
516
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,100
And most of the time, I'm working from my own account.
517
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:27,320
They don't have an idea of attributing somebody else for the work as an administrator.
518
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:27,920
Right.
519
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:28,300
Okay.
520
00:41:28,460 --> 00:41:29,340
And so,
521
00:41:29,820 --> 00:41:30,040
yeah.
522
00:41:30,180 --> 00:41:31,580
And for me,
523
00:41:31,620 --> 00:41:32,740
I see that as,
524
00:41:32,860 --> 00:41:33,080
oh,
525
00:41:33,260 --> 00:41:33,840
um,
526
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:39,540
there's a certain type of translator who will never use,
527
00:41:39,540 --> 00:41:39,960
uh,
528
00:41:39,997 --> 00:41:46,637
these platforms right and but then there are translators who actually become like the bridge
529
00:41:47,597 --> 00:41:55,837
so they take content from uh transifix weblet and whatever else and go to another translator and say
530
00:41:55,837 --> 00:42:02,237
uh i exported it for you the translator does the work and then they convert it back um yeah
531
00:42:03,517 --> 00:42:07,597
got it very very cool so it's it gives more flexibility to the translator if we were to
532
00:42:07,597 --> 00:42:12,277
maybe summarize it you don't have to work within the confines of the app itself via the computer
533
00:42:12,277 --> 00:42:18,357
or your phone or something like that okay cool yeah and one more thing one more thing is uh
534
00:42:18,357 --> 00:42:26,777
and i only realized it after we we were done building it is um because uh one exonumia
535
00:42:26,777 --> 00:42:33,477
we had this question of yo um we have the translations but who's going to read them out
536
00:42:33,477 --> 00:42:41,337
And some of the languages that are not as popular
537
00:42:41,337 --> 00:42:47,857
don't have good text-to-speech AI tools.
538
00:42:48,577 --> 00:42:53,717
And the reason is there's no database for how to say this word
539
00:42:53,717 --> 00:43:00,097
in this niche language in a village in Zambia somewhere.
540
00:43:00,097 --> 00:43:08,257
right so um what i then find funny is that the chat app gives you a very easy way to do a voice
541
00:43:08,257 --> 00:43:14,817
node right so we could literally just add a button while the user is translating that says okay cool
542
00:43:15,137 --> 00:43:20,417
pronounce uh the thing and then now the translation is paired up with uh the
543
00:43:20,417 --> 00:43:28,897
annunciation and then we we build a database or of both the translations and the annunciations right
544
00:43:28,897 --> 00:43:29,477
So, yeah.
545
00:43:30,357 --> 00:43:30,837
Amazing.
546
00:43:31,017 --> 00:43:32,077
That's super, super cool.
547
00:43:32,197 --> 00:43:34,457
And I think I mentioned this off camera with KG.
548
00:43:34,597 --> 00:43:36,837
So my background is a language teacher.
549
00:43:37,037 --> 00:43:41,097
I taught for 12 years, mostly working as an English teacher.
550
00:43:41,637 --> 00:43:47,297
And it's, you know, I interface with different sorts of technologies, some translating tools and all this kind of stuff.
551
00:43:47,317 --> 00:43:48,997
And I had never really seen anything like this.
552
00:43:48,997 --> 00:44:04,637
So just as a quick interlude here, I'm not only kind of excited about this through a Bitcoin, Nostre and broader, you know, this sort of open source tech lens, but also just in terms of what this is going to actually facilitate as far as these translations.
553
00:44:04,637 --> 00:44:16,997
And my other thought that as you're talking about all this, I know that your primary target is translations between African languages, but we know we have mutual friends like Paco de la India, who's translating things into multiple Indian languages.
554
00:44:16,997 --> 00:44:20,197
Can this be forked or can this be used for other languages?
555
00:44:20,497 --> 00:44:26,057
When you say African languages, are you just saying that because that's who you're using it with when you're in the coordination you're doing?
556
00:44:26,497 --> 00:44:28,337
What is the broader application in your mind?
557
00:44:28,997 --> 00:44:32,337
Yeah, well, obviously, it's already out there.
558
00:44:32,497 --> 00:44:34,537
So anyone can use it.
559
00:44:35,817 --> 00:44:44,117
So if something with our workflow doesn't fit well, feel free to reach out and say,
560
00:44:44,117 --> 00:44:50,517
because I know for a fact we haven't added left-to-right support.
561
00:44:51,317 --> 00:44:52,277
Is it right-to-left?
562
00:44:52,357 --> 00:44:54,197
Yeah, I think it's right-to-left support languages.
563
00:44:55,117 --> 00:44:58,357
So, yeah, that would be like an immediate fix.
564
00:45:00,017 --> 00:45:05,537
And, yeah, but the app itself isn't necessarily focused on Africa.
565
00:45:05,977 --> 00:45:07,657
Exonomia is focused on Africa.
566
00:45:07,817 --> 00:45:09,797
Mantra is a tool.
567
00:45:09,797 --> 00:45:16,177
now i so i also is that part of the reason you would also kind of divide it because exonumia is
568
00:45:16,177 --> 00:45:20,057
really with the focus on africa but mantra can be used for any this language to this language
569
00:45:20,057 --> 00:45:24,937
translation okay understood totally get it okay very very cool that makes a lot more sense to me
570
00:45:24,937 --> 00:45:30,357
in terms of uh you know and this is just me having read through some of the uh what you've shared so
571
00:45:30,357 --> 00:45:35,677
far this idea of not having to put this through a third-party server that can be seized i think you
572
00:45:35,677 --> 00:45:41,277
put this out in one of the tweets. So this isn't so much about censorship resistance per se, as
573
00:45:41,277 --> 00:45:46,337
much as it is not having you have to rely on a third party. Like you said, for a period of time,
574
00:45:46,417 --> 00:45:50,777
you forgot to pay a bill and then that server is no longer hosting whatever it needs to host.
575
00:45:51,117 --> 00:45:56,697
You're just doing this because now this stuff can live on relays or on servers within the Nostro
576
00:45:56,697 --> 00:46:01,437
relay system forever without you having to think about that. Is that a fair way to conceptualize
577
00:46:01,437 --> 00:46:02,657
why you approached it this way?
578
00:46:03,397 --> 00:46:07,117
Yeah, well, and also translation is a lot of the times
579
00:46:07,117 --> 00:46:09,797
a very slow-moving thing.
580
00:46:10,357 --> 00:46:10,497
Okay.
581
00:46:10,497 --> 00:46:18,617
So it's enough to that it lives on one phone,
582
00:46:18,997 --> 00:46:20,237
or at least one phone.
583
00:46:21,617 --> 00:46:24,437
For the most part, it doesn't need to live on a server.
584
00:46:25,497 --> 00:46:27,437
We're going to translate it.
585
00:46:27,517 --> 00:46:29,077
We're going to publish a translation.
586
00:46:29,717 --> 00:46:34,677
The published version is what deserves all the glory because it gets all the polish.
587
00:46:35,837 --> 00:46:40,817
This is the mold that stays at the factory.
588
00:46:41,177 --> 00:46:46,937
But whenever we come back and want to ship another version that's just tweaked a bit,
589
00:46:47,197 --> 00:47:03,393
we going to need that mold right Yeah and I think it interesting because then we have to say oh there so many workflows that are similar when the internal process of it all uh because it not
590
00:47:03,393 --> 00:47:13,313
sexy anyway um is nobody will ever see it and it doesn't get any love um and even now i think with
591
00:47:13,313 --> 00:47:20,833
translation the the crazy thing is uh the llms uh are taking over translations which is good for
592
00:47:20,833 --> 00:47:28,673
languages that the llms are great at translating but then any language that is um a dead language
593
00:47:28,673 --> 00:47:34,773
or a dying language or maybe just like you said it is spoken in this village in zambia or something
594
00:47:34,773 --> 00:47:42,253
along those lines exactly and yeah so um yeah um but there's i i've seen like there's a push even
595
00:47:42,253 --> 00:47:48,613
for the other languages as well that are not yet fully supported by LLM.
596
00:47:48,833 --> 00:47:51,653
So how do you then manage that system?
597
00:47:52,473 --> 00:47:53,653
Okay, very, very cool.
598
00:47:54,153 --> 00:47:58,633
I think, yeah, I could ask a billion follow-up questions on all this,
599
00:47:58,693 --> 00:48:00,793
but it does really get me excited, not just like I said,
600
00:48:00,793 --> 00:48:06,213
for like Paco de la India, who's doing multiple Indian languages,
601
00:48:06,453 --> 00:48:09,553
but even places like I was speaking with someone from the Motive team,
602
00:48:09,553 --> 00:48:12,113
and predominantly they need to use Spanish,
603
00:48:12,253 --> 00:48:14,573
but there's people speaking Quechua and other languages
604
00:48:14,573 --> 00:48:16,873
in the Andes and in the Amazon of Peru
605
00:48:16,873 --> 00:48:19,493
that would greatly benefit from something like this.
606
00:48:20,413 --> 00:48:24,113
Obviously, it's an amazing tool,
607
00:48:24,233 --> 00:48:26,953
but humans are very much still the driving force here
608
00:48:26,953 --> 00:48:28,493
in terms of getting these translations done.
609
00:48:28,553 --> 00:48:30,173
If they can work with LLMs, even better.
610
00:48:30,773 --> 00:48:32,493
But again, it's only sort of like,
611
00:48:32,493 --> 00:48:35,553
depends how good of a tool the LLMs are in that regard as well.
612
00:48:35,913 --> 00:48:39,033
But this seems like a really, really amazing tool
613
00:48:39,033 --> 00:48:43,853
in that given the technology you use to make it work
614
00:48:43,853 --> 00:48:47,073
and also the fact that people can be paid in Bitcoin
615
00:48:47,073 --> 00:48:48,373
to do this sort of translation,
616
00:48:48,953 --> 00:48:50,793
it seems like it's going to,
617
00:48:51,893 --> 00:48:54,393
obviously it has a great potential
618
00:48:54,393 --> 00:48:55,853
to get many more people
619
00:48:55,853 --> 00:48:58,013
who otherwise wouldn't have exposure to this literature
620
00:48:58,013 --> 00:49:00,253
or whatever text it is translating
621
00:49:00,253 --> 00:49:01,493
to get exposure to it.
622
00:49:01,553 --> 00:49:03,753
And I wanted to dive in there a little bit deeper as well.
623
00:49:03,853 --> 00:49:06,013
In the time that you've done Exxonomia,
624
00:49:06,293 --> 00:49:08,413
how many people do you feel like you've reached?
625
00:49:08,413 --> 00:49:10,213
I just want to put this in context already.
626
00:49:10,413 --> 00:49:14,493
So like, I'm sure that the idea here is like, we want to reach a lot more and maybe there
627
00:49:14,493 --> 00:49:17,393
was a bottleneck or a constraint on the amount of people you're reaching.
628
00:49:17,513 --> 00:49:19,753
I don't know if that was, what was the driving force here?
629
00:49:19,793 --> 00:49:24,073
I know some of the other driving forces you've explained, but how many people have you reached
630
00:49:24,073 --> 00:49:27,353
and what, and do you think that this will now accelerate that process?
631
00:49:28,093 --> 00:49:28,333
Oh yeah.
632
00:49:28,433 --> 00:49:33,393
No, I have, uh, I like no idea how many people we've reached with exonemia.
633
00:49:33,393 --> 00:49:41,493
I think we ended up at some point maximizing even for like the offline user
634
00:49:41,493 --> 00:49:46,353
the user who would print and then go and share the printed versions
635
00:49:46,353 --> 00:49:50,773
so yeah I think we need to look at that
636
00:49:50,773 --> 00:49:53,933
but even in some cases in some of the books
637
00:49:53,933 --> 00:49:59,973
I think Learn Bitcoin by Anita Posh
638
00:49:59,973 --> 00:50:10,773
that in itself had its own community. I know Bitcoin Negasi, we've done even custom work with
639
00:50:10,773 --> 00:50:18,333
them. I think we did. What did we do with Bitcoin Negasi? They had a workbook, but they have had a
640
00:50:18,333 --> 00:50:25,113
number of workbooks that we've done with them to translate them into TOSA and I think some in
641
00:50:25,113 --> 00:50:33,433
Afrikaans. And then that community gets to work with that. A few guys in Kenya, but as soon as it
642
00:50:33,433 --> 00:50:41,833
leaves our hands, it enters the community, we don't know even how many people it sits in front.
643
00:50:42,953 --> 00:50:53,513
But for us, it's always a thing of there's an eagerness with the translators to actually do
644
00:50:53,513 --> 00:51:03,373
more, right? And so what would happen if it was easier for them to then say, okay, I'm going to
645
00:51:03,373 --> 00:51:14,753
work on this specific thing, right? And no shade to the LLMs, but dialects are so different by
646
00:51:14,753 --> 00:51:24,753
region, by country, by so, so much, right? So, only the locals will tell you there's a variation
647
00:51:24,753 --> 00:51:34,093
to this thing. Fun fact, I was in primary school, and my math teacher comes in and asks us,
648
00:51:34,093 --> 00:51:41,653
how do we greet, right? And I'm based in Pretoria, so we said, ashe, right? And he said,
649
00:51:41,653 --> 00:51:42,073
No
650
00:51:42,073 --> 00:51:44,033
So he did that for like the whole 30 minutes
651
00:51:44,033 --> 00:51:47,353
But I think he just didn't want to teach math on that day
652
00:51:47,353 --> 00:51:51,553
But he did that for 30 minutes
653
00:51:51,553 --> 00:51:54,033
He kept asking people as they were passing by
654
00:51:54,033 --> 00:51:56,773
And the reason is
655
00:51:56,773 --> 00:51:59,253
Ache is not the actual word
656
00:51:59,253 --> 00:52:14,249
Ache is the actual word But we in Pretoria And we are around all of these different cultures Pretoria is not a purely Susoto not a purely Spady not a purely Chang city
657
00:52:14,249 --> 00:52:17,249
but you're going to interact with all of these people.
658
00:52:17,869 --> 00:52:22,529
And so your Ahre from Limpopo becomes Ashe in Pretoria.
659
00:52:23,049 --> 00:52:29,969
And so now if you know you're going to do something in Pretoria for the Sotsu speakers,
660
00:52:29,989 --> 00:52:34,789
in Pretoria do it for and customize it for them.
661
00:52:35,389 --> 00:52:43,069
The Zulu speakers in KwaZulu Natal are not the same as the Zulu speakers in Gautin or Johannesburg.
662
00:52:43,069 --> 00:52:52,349
So, yeah, then for me, it was a thing of, okay, you have this customization need,
663
00:52:52,549 --> 00:52:57,389
but none of the tools are actually easy enough to work with.
664
00:52:57,389 --> 00:53:04,589
I tried doing a few Bitcoin Core translations.
665
00:53:05,889 --> 00:53:09,849
My biggest issue was before I could even start,
666
00:53:09,989 --> 00:53:12,029
I needed somebody to approve their language.
667
00:53:13,329 --> 00:53:14,289
I'm not sure I follow.
668
00:53:14,649 --> 00:53:16,989
What does that mean when you say approve the language?
669
00:53:18,269 --> 00:53:21,049
I think they're still using TransyFix.
670
00:53:22,789 --> 00:53:26,949
There's a list of languages Bitcoin Core is currently supporting.
671
00:53:27,389 --> 00:53:27,989
Got it.
672
00:53:28,229 --> 00:53:32,029
And then I wanted to add a South African language.
673
00:53:32,989 --> 00:53:35,709
And somebody on the back end of TransyFix has to approve that.
674
00:53:35,909 --> 00:53:37,189
Oh, is that what you're saying?
675
00:53:37,329 --> 00:53:37,809
Is that what you're saying?
676
00:53:37,809 --> 00:53:40,729
Yeah, but I think it was somebody on the Bitcoin core team.
677
00:53:41,629 --> 00:53:42,829
Oh, interesting.
678
00:53:43,429 --> 00:53:43,909
Oh, okay.
679
00:53:44,369 --> 00:53:48,309
So I'm like, yo, this is already an open source project.
680
00:53:48,449 --> 00:53:50,149
What's the point in you?
681
00:53:51,029 --> 00:53:52,869
The content, I can see the content.
682
00:53:53,009 --> 00:53:54,949
Just give me a button to fork it even.
683
00:53:54,949 --> 00:53:58,389
then I can send you a PR
684
00:53:58,389 --> 00:54:00,749
and you can then decide
685
00:54:00,749 --> 00:54:02,789
whether or not you want to accept it
686
00:54:02,789 --> 00:54:03,949
but at the end of the day
687
00:54:03,949 --> 00:54:04,889
I did the work
688
00:54:04,889 --> 00:54:07,609
so then in all of that
689
00:54:07,609 --> 00:54:08,249
I'm like oh
690
00:54:08,249 --> 00:54:10,169
by the time it got approved
691
00:54:10,169 --> 00:54:12,509
I was doing other stuff
692
00:54:12,509 --> 00:54:15,529
and I'm like yo
693
00:54:15,529 --> 00:54:17,889
the open source world
694
00:54:17,889 --> 00:54:18,809
is so much different
695
00:54:18,809 --> 00:54:21,749
from everything else
696
00:54:21,749 --> 00:54:22,789
because I understand
697
00:54:22,789 --> 00:54:23,909
why they would do that
698
00:54:23,909 --> 00:54:27,889
from digital rights or copyright perspective.
699
00:54:28,529 --> 00:54:30,829
But if it's an open source project,
700
00:54:31,209 --> 00:54:37,489
just even let the person who is interested fork the project.
701
00:54:37,969 --> 00:54:42,869
So this is something we're going to add later where,
702
00:54:42,869 --> 00:54:46,929
oh, you can see the translations.
703
00:54:47,269 --> 00:54:49,189
You can see the source material.
704
00:54:49,369 --> 00:54:50,589
Oh, okay, do you want to fork it?
705
00:54:50,589 --> 00:54:58,869
Then you fork it and it lives in your own group with your own management and with your own approval workflow.
706
00:54:59,249 --> 00:55:04,489
So if you then do a translation, you can then maybe send it back to us.
707
00:55:04,509 --> 00:55:06,829
But if we don't approve it, we don't approve it.
708
00:55:07,209 --> 00:55:10,069
If you don't want to support your language, you don't want to support your language.
709
00:55:10,289 --> 00:55:16,369
But you are still free to work on your own project and do it however you see fit.
710
00:55:17,169 --> 00:55:17,669
I got it.
711
00:55:17,809 --> 00:55:17,989
Okay.
712
00:55:18,109 --> 00:55:18,849
Very, very cool.
713
00:55:18,849 --> 00:55:19,949
Really, really, really cool.
714
00:55:19,949 --> 00:55:24,129
uh speaking of being free to work on a project i want to go back to something you mentioned a
715
00:55:24,129 --> 00:55:29,589
little bit earlier about how you had this deep desire to do this to to create something like
716
00:55:29,589 --> 00:55:37,909
mantra and then it kind of you started with exonomia 2018-19 um noster arrives on the scene
717
00:55:37,909 --> 00:55:42,449
frost all this other technology kind of comes to life marmot protocol um
718
00:55:42,449 --> 00:55:50,389
the feeling that i'm sort of getting here is like you're also a poet rapper musician
719
00:55:50,389 --> 00:55:56,589
and what i'm getting here is sort of like machancora is like your pop work and this is
720
00:55:56,589 --> 00:56:01,469
like your experimental work i don't know if that's a fair way to put it no yeah yeah it's
721
00:56:01,469 --> 00:56:06,789
good enough but but i say it not because you don't treat this seriously like it's just an
722
00:56:06,789 --> 00:56:11,009
experiment you treat it seriously but oftentimes if you're an artist and you're doing something a
723
00:56:11,009 --> 00:56:14,909
little bit more experimental, some of that experience is then going to bleed into your
724
00:56:14,909 --> 00:56:20,049
pop work. So you also mentioned about going back to Machankora or working on this new iteration of
725
00:56:20,049 --> 00:56:24,269
Machankora. We talked about this a while back where I think you were working at one point on
726
00:56:24,269 --> 00:56:28,829
turning feature phones into Bitcoin hardware wallets, where you could basically use your
727
00:56:28,829 --> 00:56:35,749
Nokia phone, a non-smartphone, as a way to store your seed phrase. And then your everyday phone
728
00:56:35,749 --> 00:56:40,889
becomes your hardware wallet. So I'm curious, in this process of working with all of this new
729
00:56:40,889 --> 00:56:46,629
technology, learning about it, piecing it together. I'm sure from a creative standpoint,
730
00:56:47,069 --> 00:56:53,369
this had to have been fun, challenging for sure, I would imagine, but fun. And now how is this now
731
00:56:53,369 --> 00:56:58,389
helping you to maybe look back at some of the other stuff you were working on either
732
00:56:58,389 --> 00:57:02,969
simultaneously or beforehand, and then to kind of re-approach it with maybe a different mentality
733
00:57:02,969 --> 00:57:07,889
or a different idea for how to apply some of this technology in a way that's usable,
734
00:57:07,889 --> 00:57:12,089
but also maybe for the sort of population
735
00:57:12,089 --> 00:57:24,086
that you are looking to reach with Mach both the initial version of it and then the non version you were working on Yeah Yeah Okay cool So yeah I think I kind of agree with the analogy
736
00:57:24,566 --> 00:57:30,726
I'll maybe adjust it by saying mainstream instead of pop. Okay, cool. Perfect. Yeah, because, you know,
737
00:57:31,446 --> 00:57:37,766
the aim is to get to as many people as possible. And I think Machankora is a vessel for that.
738
00:57:37,766 --> 00:57:44,266
But at the same time, it's very hard to do things in Machangura.
739
00:57:44,366 --> 00:57:45,606
A lot has changed.
740
00:57:46,266 --> 00:57:46,946
Regulations.
741
00:57:48,406 --> 00:57:55,886
So even when I'm working on Machangura stuff, I think now most of the stuff is admin related.
742
00:57:57,226 --> 00:57:57,406
Okay.
743
00:57:58,426 --> 00:57:59,326
Doing paperwork.
744
00:58:00,906 --> 00:58:03,186
So, yeah.
745
00:58:03,186 --> 00:58:07,386
Then, yes, on the other hand, this is very experimental.
746
00:58:07,766 --> 00:58:15,646
And I think it would be beneficial for me and or everyone if the experiment goes well.
747
00:58:16,746 --> 00:58:19,486
So, yeah, you're right on the money on that part, right?
748
00:58:19,486 --> 00:58:30,906
And shockingly, I think for me, the biggest shocker is that some of the things we have on mantra
749
00:58:30,906 --> 00:58:40,946
technically work so much better than some of the things we have on mantra, on Machangura, right?
750
00:58:41,406 --> 00:58:42,266
Machangura, okay.
751
00:58:43,306 --> 00:58:50,606
Yeah, and I'm like, oh, I cannot wait for the day I could just pull it in and say, okay, cool.
752
00:58:51,206 --> 00:58:53,446
This is ready.
753
00:58:53,446 --> 00:59:11,826
And so, yeah, but so much will have to change because on the other hand, I think I've only tested it with people who are eager to use decentralized technology, with people who know what Nostra is.
754
00:59:13,266 --> 00:59:21,646
A lot of them like how it feels because it doesn't feel or look like it's a decentralized tool.
755
00:59:21,646 --> 00:59:27,446
but I don't know if it's going to feel and look the same to a normal person.
756
00:59:28,206 --> 00:59:32,506
And for me, that's always the thing of, oh, okay, this is experimental,
757
00:59:32,926 --> 00:59:37,486
but does a normal person just treat it like they would have treated WhatsApp?
758
00:59:39,606 --> 00:59:43,186
That's always the challenge with this stuff, especially as a developer,
759
00:59:43,186 --> 00:59:44,506
when you're deep down the rabbit hole.
760
00:59:45,086 --> 00:59:49,486
We don't mind a little bit of something being slightly rough around the edges
761
00:59:49,486 --> 00:59:52,086
because we think the technology is cool and we want to engage with it.
762
00:59:52,126 --> 00:59:53,966
But then when it comes to mass adoption,
763
00:59:53,966 --> 00:59:56,266
people are not comparing one Bitcoin app to another
764
00:59:56,266 --> 00:59:58,446
or one private messaging app to another.
765
00:59:58,566 --> 01:00:00,026
Is it as easy to use as WhatsApp?
766
01:00:00,246 --> 01:00:02,326
Is it as easy to use as PayPal?
767
01:00:02,746 --> 01:00:04,006
That's the real competition,
768
01:00:04,006 --> 01:00:06,206
and you constantly sort of have to keep that in mind.
769
01:00:06,386 --> 01:00:09,046
I don't say you, the general you,
770
01:00:09,126 --> 01:00:11,786
but obviously a developer has to keep that kind of stuff in mind,
771
01:00:11,826 --> 01:00:12,766
which seems challenging.
772
01:00:13,366 --> 01:00:15,406
To another point you were just making,
773
01:00:15,926 --> 01:00:18,006
in terms of the regulation in South Africa,
774
01:00:18,006 --> 01:00:21,486
I've been in touch with the members of Bitcoin Akazi about this.
775
01:00:21,886 --> 01:00:22,726
There have been issues.
776
01:00:22,726 --> 01:00:26,246
So there's potentially regulation coming down the pipeline that would make it,
777
01:00:26,306 --> 01:00:29,666
I don't want to say illegal if that's not the right word to use,
778
01:00:29,786 --> 01:00:33,566
but they would make there so that you have to use Bitcoin within certain
779
01:00:33,566 --> 01:00:37,366
walled gardens, meaning, okay, you can use Bitcoin, but it has to be,
780
01:00:37,366 --> 01:00:40,846
I don't know, spending it from an exchange or a third party that, you know,
781
01:00:40,846 --> 01:00:45,646
some KYC service that, that is, that's holding it for you.
782
01:00:45,646 --> 01:00:51,046
I'm curious so much on Cora and just a quick overview for those who are not familiar so it's
783
01:00:51,046 --> 01:00:56,706
a way it's a custodial way to send bitcoin using feature phones and for something like that I think
784
01:00:56,706 --> 01:01:01,046
you said you might have been for some places that you operate you had to start doing KYC for it
785
01:01:01,046 --> 01:01:07,026
so maybe you're kind of safe and maybe that fits under no okay so where are things at right now
786
01:01:07,026 --> 01:01:11,546
generally in South Africa and how will that impact what you're doing oh yeah so we got
787
01:01:11,546 --> 01:01:13,846
fully licensed in South Africa.
788
01:01:15,646 --> 01:01:17,266
We may have gotten,
789
01:01:17,506 --> 01:01:19,806
we almost got licensed in Kenya,
790
01:01:19,906 --> 01:01:20,646
but then I was like,
791
01:01:20,846 --> 01:01:23,046
no, man, this is too much.
792
01:01:23,666 --> 01:01:24,726
So I'm like, okay.
793
01:01:24,726 --> 01:01:26,886
Because of the VASP law that Kenya just passed?
794
01:01:27,366 --> 01:01:27,646
Yeah.
795
01:01:28,766 --> 01:01:32,206
It's every country is trying to pass something, right?
796
01:01:32,206 --> 01:01:32,386
Yep.
797
01:01:32,646 --> 01:01:34,886
So then I'm like, okay, cool.
798
01:01:35,026 --> 01:01:36,906
Let's see what we can do here.
799
01:01:36,906 --> 01:01:40,306
And then in South Africa,
800
01:01:40,306 --> 01:01:57,686
The South African law one is funny because technically they are doing all of these rules and regulations for cross-border capital exchange regulation.
801
01:01:58,206 --> 01:02:07,506
So effectively, they are deeming a transaction to self-custody as part of that cross-border activity.
802
01:02:07,506 --> 01:02:12,506
Even if it's not, even if it is to somebody else within the country, they're just putting it under that umbrella.
803
01:02:12,506 --> 01:02:20,506
Yes, because technically once it's self-custodied, then it can go everywhere, anywhere else in the world.
804
01:02:20,506 --> 01:02:29,946
So then I think what they want to do is then say for you to do it, you'd have to be,
805
01:02:29,982 --> 01:02:35,962
following whatever the cross-border regulations for that are.
806
01:02:36,382 --> 01:02:42,962
But there's a judge who kind of put some ice on their tracks
807
01:02:42,962 --> 01:02:46,382
previously on a different matter because he was like,
808
01:02:46,482 --> 01:02:49,202
yo, you guys are treating it in two different ways.
809
01:02:49,202 --> 01:02:52,222
You're treating it as a digital asset,
810
01:02:52,222 --> 01:02:55,042
but then now you're treating it as capital.
811
01:02:55,042 --> 01:03:01,102
You know, it's just they're treating it depending on what they're trying to enforce.
812
01:03:01,462 --> 01:03:08,762
So the judge said you also didn't update any of the laws to say this is how you want to treat it.
813
01:03:08,762 --> 01:03:10,322
So go ahead.
814
01:03:10,662 --> 01:03:18,682
And so I think this is their attempt to appease that judgment so that they can go back to that judgment and say,
815
01:03:18,802 --> 01:03:22,522
yeah, now the regulations have changed and we want to do this.
816
01:03:22,522 --> 01:03:25,342
But self-custody is not going away.
817
01:03:26,242 --> 01:03:30,982
What is going away is effectively what may be going away.
818
01:03:31,042 --> 01:03:32,702
Let me not say definitively.
819
01:03:32,762 --> 01:03:40,982
What may be going away is the ability of regulated entities to allow you to send Bitcoin to self-custody, right,
820
01:03:41,122 --> 01:03:45,622
if they don't change any of the draft regulations.
821
01:03:47,242 --> 01:03:49,122
But, yeah, you can always self-custody.
822
01:03:49,122 --> 01:03:58,802
And the other thing they tried before, what they have now, is saying they could order you to give up your private key.
823
01:03:58,882 --> 01:04:03,342
But I think that went away or that got scratched out.
824
01:04:03,522 --> 01:04:04,802
So self-custody is staying.
825
01:04:05,522 --> 01:04:11,642
But then now they're fully focusing on what regulated entities can actually do.
826
01:04:12,082 --> 01:04:17,122
And, yeah, so it's, you know, for me, it's like crazy times.
827
01:04:17,122 --> 01:04:26,882
times but i think it also is uh what is forcing me to kind of push harder uh to say okay cool um
828
01:04:26,882 --> 01:04:34,162
if we need to be uh decentralized how can we improve how we work in a decentralized manner
829
01:04:34,162 --> 01:04:39,482
and how we coordinate in a decentralized manner so and that is why i said most of the things we're
830
01:04:39,482 --> 01:04:46,742
doing on mantra are going to feed back into machangura machangura clans will be an a murmur
831
01:04:46,742 --> 01:04:53,302
chat group with lightning wallet um where does the lightning wallet run does it run on one of the
832
01:04:53,302 --> 01:05:00,662
members phone uh so uh do you guys nominate the person you guys think how will his phone
833
01:05:00,662 --> 01:05:08,502
will always be on and then they receive on behalf of the group maybe uh but how would that uh
834
01:05:08,502 --> 01:05:16,102
lightning node not spend uh and then guess what um jesse posner and his team or or the people he
835
01:05:16,102 --> 01:05:21,782
works with published iceberg and i don't know if you got to read up on that not familiar no what's
836
01:05:21,782 --> 01:05:29,622
this yes so iceberg was a way to do uh was this um threshold signatures on a lightning note right
837
01:05:29,622 --> 01:05:36,102
um without impacting performance too much they still impact performance because um the thing with
838
01:05:36,102 --> 01:05:43,222
lightning or with frost the threshold signatures um when you do a signing you have to coordinate
839
01:05:43,222 --> 01:05:50,602
with all your peers to say, oh, I want to sign this, give me an ounce, so on and so forth.
840
01:05:51,682 --> 01:05:55,962
And when you're doing payments on a lightning node, that may be too long.
841
01:05:56,982 --> 01:06:02,902
But what I realized is, and shout out to Jesse and his team for the research,
842
01:06:03,542 --> 01:06:05,842
that technically you don't need iceberg.
843
01:06:05,842 --> 01:06:13,402
You can do the same with Frost if you are comfortable with how long it's going to take.
844
01:06:14,122 --> 01:06:14,162
Okay.
845
01:06:14,382 --> 01:06:14,582
Right?
846
01:06:14,762 --> 01:06:18,342
So if it's going to take a minute, if it's going to take five seconds,
847
01:06:18,342 --> 01:06:26,082
and you're comfortable with waiting a minute or five seconds for a signature to get produced, do it.
848
01:06:26,542 --> 01:06:32,662
And, yeah, so for me, I'm like, okay, this is all interesting.
849
01:06:33,002 --> 01:06:34,242
All the pieces are there.
850
01:06:34,242 --> 01:06:35,422
Let's just put them together.
851
01:06:35,842 --> 01:06:38,282
let's see how it would work.
852
01:06:38,882 --> 01:06:41,682
If you have a need for the workload
853
01:06:41,682 --> 01:06:43,642
to be on one specific device,
854
01:06:44,062 --> 01:06:45,762
how do you set it up?
855
01:06:45,842 --> 01:06:47,182
Do you do a hosted solution
856
01:06:47,182 --> 01:06:51,922
or do the users who actually are part of the group
857
01:06:51,922 --> 01:06:54,822
nominate one member to have it on their phone?
858
01:06:55,102 --> 01:06:56,582
So yeah, that's basically it.
859
01:06:57,282 --> 01:06:58,642
Okay, very, very cool.
860
01:06:59,342 --> 01:07:01,682
So you said it's crazy times.
861
01:07:02,142 --> 01:07:04,022
Obviously, we have everything going on
862
01:07:04,022 --> 01:07:06,142
with these hacks of open source tech.
863
01:07:06,242 --> 01:07:07,942
We just saw the Liquid Network, Cold Card,
864
01:07:08,062 --> 01:07:09,842
BTC Pay Server, all this kind of stuff.
865
01:07:09,942 --> 01:07:12,462
Obviously, from what I've heard
866
01:07:12,462 --> 01:07:14,102
from most developers I've spoken with,
867
01:07:14,202 --> 01:07:16,502
it's obviously wild in that regard.
868
01:07:16,642 --> 01:07:20,562
South Africa has that other layer of kind of challenges
869
01:07:20,562 --> 01:07:22,442
because of what's happening with the regulation,
870
01:07:22,442 --> 01:07:24,002
but it seems like you're navigating that.
871
01:07:24,842 --> 01:07:27,222
You have an idea for how to navigate that well.
872
01:07:28,202 --> 01:07:30,022
We were talking a little bit off camera
873
01:07:30,022 --> 01:07:32,682
about kind of where we go from here with Bitcoin.
874
01:07:33,082 --> 01:07:51,325
I think a lot of people at the very least feel like a boxer in the 10th round who gotten beaten up pretty bad after these last few weeks few months At the same time I not seeing anybody disappear I not seeing anyone just say okay this is just too much I going back to fiat world and I just don care anymore I not seeing that more more that I seeing a little
875
01:07:51,325 --> 01:07:56,065
bit more like I need a break. I need to go get my mental health in check. And like, I need to
876
01:07:56,065 --> 01:08:01,945
take a deep breath. I wanted to know where you're at with everything. Where, where do we go from
877
01:08:01,945 --> 01:08:06,785
here? How are you thinking about what the next step for, what the next steps for you look like
878
01:08:06,785 --> 01:08:09,285
and for the projects that you're working with or that you've created?
879
01:08:10,085 --> 01:08:15,645
Yeah, well, you know, I feel like whoever survives lives forever.
880
01:08:17,485 --> 01:08:22,125
But, you know, it's like we are, what is that?
881
01:08:22,205 --> 01:08:23,365
Squid games, right?
882
01:08:23,365 --> 01:08:24,365
Yeah, yeah, okay.
883
01:08:24,725 --> 01:08:27,665
Tomorrow we're going to learn what the game for the day is.
884
01:08:28,065 --> 01:08:31,785
And so whoever perishes, perishes, right?
885
01:08:31,785 --> 01:08:42,245
And so, yeah, but it's interesting times, but whoever survives, I honestly feel they will live forever.
886
01:08:42,245 --> 01:09:01,545
But I also think it's very weird because most of the companies that were affected were obviously companies and projects were pretty much the mature projects.
887
01:09:01,785 --> 01:09:09,865
and the mature companies, right? So, and in some cases, these are companies I looked up to. And so
888
01:09:10,425 --> 01:09:18,105
for me, it's always a thing of, oh, man, you know, what is happening? Right? So I'm like, yo,
889
01:09:18,105 --> 01:09:23,545
if it could happen to them, and not even a recent thing, because I think Bitrefill
890
01:09:23,545 --> 01:09:29,865
had its issue earlier in the year, that wasn't AI, but that was social engineering,
891
01:09:29,865 --> 01:09:31,265
I think it was social engineering.
892
01:09:32,125 --> 01:09:36,945
And even them, I look up to them quite a lot.
893
01:09:37,045 --> 01:09:40,065
And I'm like, yo, these guys are really killing it.
894
01:09:40,105 --> 01:09:41,465
And they've been killing it forever.
895
01:09:41,905 --> 01:09:44,125
And then that happens.
896
01:09:44,305 --> 01:09:47,625
And then in my shock, it happened on a Sunday.
897
01:09:47,845 --> 01:09:49,185
I'm like, ah, they'll be back tomorrow.
898
01:09:49,725 --> 01:09:55,405
Monday, I cannot buy my coffee because Bitterfield is still down.
899
01:09:55,525 --> 01:09:57,905
Tuesday, and then I'm like, yeah, no, this is bad.
900
01:09:57,905 --> 01:09:59,425
They were down for a while.
901
01:09:59,865 --> 01:10:08,845
And then, but due to their maturity and their experience, they are still here.
902
01:10:09,165 --> 01:10:14,145
So I'm like, okay, a lot has to change.
903
01:10:14,865 --> 01:10:20,745
And even with what I'm doing with my changura, I'm really sitting down every day and drafting,
904
01:10:20,985 --> 01:10:22,385
okay, this is what I can change.
905
01:10:22,865 --> 01:10:26,125
This is what I need to change and so on and so forth.
906
01:10:26,125 --> 01:10:36,025
and there's a number of guys of course who are vocal i think alex from river is a great guy
907
01:10:36,025 --> 01:10:42,405
because he keeps iterating okay this is what we need to do so on and so forth um but at the same
908
01:10:42,405 --> 01:10:50,705
time nobody has the answers right so um i i also looked up well i still look up to francis from
909
01:10:50,705 --> 01:10:58,465
build Bitcoin, right? And he's also been a very vocal build the right way type of guy, right? And
910
01:10:58,465 --> 01:11:06,405
everything that has happened in the last two months or so, it's like, yo, what happened first?
911
01:11:07,225 --> 01:11:12,585
Oh, CoinKite. CoinKite was the big thing. I think that really set the domino, set everything in
912
01:11:12,585 --> 01:11:20,285
motion. Yeah. Yeah. And I know Francis was like a huge promoter for call cards and stuff. And then
913
01:11:20,285 --> 01:11:22,445
And I'm like, okay, but it wasn't his fault.
914
01:11:22,665 --> 01:11:25,685
And then Boltz goes on.
915
01:11:25,685 --> 01:11:34,845
And then Boltz was the way that his wallet worked, right, with the swaps.
916
01:11:35,565 --> 01:11:42,405
And so the child that he is, he makes a declaration that we're going to make it work again, right.
917
01:11:42,605 --> 01:11:47,045
And I'm quite sure they've done building it out because that's what builders do.
918
01:11:47,045 --> 01:11:50,945
Then now liquid incident happened
919
01:11:50,945 --> 01:11:54,205
It looks like they're going to be able to recover
920
01:11:54,205 --> 01:12:03,405
But it's like, yo, this is already a guy who understands decentralization
921
01:12:03,405 --> 01:12:06,305
Who emphasizes decentralization
922
01:12:06,305 --> 01:12:07,485
And all of this is happening
923
01:12:07,485 --> 01:12:08,445
And it's not just him
924
01:12:08,445 --> 01:12:10,245
There's other guys in Africa
925
01:12:10,245 --> 01:12:14,225
Banksy, I'm probably pronouncing it wrong
926
01:12:14,225 --> 01:12:17,425
was affected by a number of the hacks, right?
927
01:12:17,625 --> 01:12:20,165
Or I think by one, the BTC Pay one.
928
01:12:20,165 --> 01:12:23,665
I was affected, not too impacted,
929
01:12:23,845 --> 01:12:29,725
because I at least got the chance to search off my BTC Pay server nodes on time.
930
01:12:29,905 --> 01:12:33,725
And also, most of them are not public, so I'm not too affected.
931
01:12:34,265 --> 01:12:39,425
But there is that Squid Games thing, I'm saying.
932
01:12:39,565 --> 01:12:42,965
Like, you really are doing whatever.
933
01:12:43,125 --> 01:12:44,065
You're doing your best.
934
01:12:44,225 --> 01:12:48,945
You're applying all the best practices and then something just happens.
935
01:12:49,105 --> 01:12:49,945
It's not your fault.
936
01:12:50,305 --> 01:13:05,568
It just so happens that you are in the blast radius So yeah it is what it is But I think it for me I think it a reason to build more
937
01:13:05,748 --> 01:13:07,088
It's to build better.
938
01:13:07,548 --> 01:13:09,488
Oh, maybe even not build better.
939
01:13:09,648 --> 01:13:10,828
Let me correct that.
940
01:13:11,068 --> 01:13:12,468
Just build, you know.
941
01:13:13,828 --> 01:13:19,808
And I think we need to even be building at a much more accelerated rate.
942
01:13:19,988 --> 01:13:23,548
because it's a little cheaper to build because of AI.
943
01:13:24,408 --> 01:13:26,428
This also means you're going to make mistakes.
944
01:13:26,428 --> 01:13:32,068
But in all of those mistakes, something good is going to come out of it.
945
01:13:33,448 --> 01:13:37,208
And so what else needs to happen from there?
946
01:13:37,468 --> 01:13:40,408
Yeah, and as you're saying, not too many people are going away.
947
01:13:41,748 --> 01:13:43,868
I don't think you can, you know.
948
01:13:44,528 --> 01:13:46,308
I think we have great.
949
01:13:46,908 --> 01:13:47,948
Yeah, please continue.
950
01:13:48,008 --> 01:13:48,608
That's a great point.
951
01:13:48,608 --> 01:13:50,028
Yeah, it's like, where are we going to go?
952
01:13:50,128 --> 01:13:50,848
Like, what are we going to do?
953
01:13:50,848 --> 01:13:53,728
We've already gone over to this side.
954
01:13:53,808 --> 01:13:54,728
There's no going back.
955
01:13:54,808 --> 01:13:57,628
So it's like, okay, now we just got to make the best of the situation at hand.
956
01:13:58,228 --> 01:14:05,208
Yeah, and if you know what's happening, you already know, oh, this is going to happen everywhere.
957
01:14:05,888 --> 01:14:07,428
This is going to happen to my bank.
958
01:14:07,548 --> 01:14:10,108
This is going to happen to so on and so forth.
959
01:14:10,108 --> 01:14:19,068
obviously now it's happening in bitcoin to mature bitcoin companies that are big targets
960
01:14:19,068 --> 01:14:26,868
primarily because of the maturity and also how much value gets unlocked if you succeed right
961
01:14:26,868 --> 01:14:34,208
so but at the same time it's gonna happen uh and it's probably happening in a lot of places we just
962
01:14:34,208 --> 01:14:39,788
don't hear about because they don't have a public leisure that lets you know, oh, that
963
01:14:39,788 --> 01:14:40,268
happened?
964
01:14:40,668 --> 01:14:46,348
Before the main project even announces that that happened, everybody is talking about
965
01:14:46,348 --> 01:14:46,488
it.
966
01:14:46,608 --> 01:14:50,208
Everybody is sharing transaction hashes, right?
967
01:14:50,548 --> 01:14:53,668
So, but at the end of the day, you cannot leave.
968
01:14:54,028 --> 01:14:55,088
There's nowhere to go.
969
01:14:55,348 --> 01:15:00,728
And everywhere you're going, you're going to get there and try to warn people that, yo,
970
01:15:01,068 --> 01:15:02,488
there's trouble coming.
971
01:15:02,788 --> 01:15:03,508
Do you guys know?
972
01:15:03,508 --> 01:15:06,628
what are you doing to
973
01:15:06,628 --> 01:15:07,848
and you know
974
01:15:07,848 --> 01:15:10,028
and they're going to say
975
01:15:10,028 --> 01:15:12,348
they hired this guy
976
01:15:12,348 --> 01:15:13,148
to deal with it
977
01:15:13,148 --> 01:15:15,628
and you're like
978
01:15:15,628 --> 01:15:16,608
it's not enough
979
01:15:16,608 --> 01:15:17,888
you need whatever else
980
01:15:17,888 --> 01:15:21,488
but it's just an interesting
981
01:15:21,488 --> 01:15:23,008
time
982
01:15:23,008 --> 01:15:24,408
an interesting dynamic
983
01:15:24,408 --> 01:15:26,728
yeah that's really really good
984
01:15:26,728 --> 01:15:28,168
that line about not
985
01:15:28,168 --> 01:15:29,608
there's nowhere else to go
986
01:15:29,608 --> 01:15:30,468
it's the way I feel
987
01:15:30,468 --> 01:15:31,808
I've made my commitment
988
01:15:31,808 --> 01:15:32,628
to this space
989
01:15:32,628 --> 01:15:42,248
And, you know, at the end, something I think that's worth worth worth also mentioning in this breath is something we were talking about a little bit before we got started.
990
01:15:42,248 --> 01:15:49,268
And it's just this idea that we I think I think it is good that people keep building for sure, but maybe sort of a return.
991
01:15:49,268 --> 01:15:55,948
We were talking a little bit about some of this technology that we're employing, even random number generators, things like that.
992
01:15:55,948 --> 01:16:05,208
This is stuff that was created in maybe the late, late eighties, early nineties, maybe a revisiting of the fundamentals, the basics, this technology, how we're employing it.
993
01:16:05,368 --> 01:16:07,908
Maybe that's the really good thing that comes out of this.
994
01:16:08,008 --> 01:16:13,488
We really stick to like the basics, obviously iterate and build our own stuff as we move forward.
995
01:16:13,488 --> 01:16:20,128
And I don't want to say our, because I don't technically build this stuff, but that developers, you know, continue to iterate and create new things.
996
01:16:20,128 --> 01:16:25,488
But, but maybe, maybe, maybe looking, maybe revisiting the roots.
997
01:16:25,488 --> 01:16:27,928
Is that a fair way to put it, the roots of this technology?
998
01:16:28,128 --> 01:16:30,968
Is that what this is maybe affording us the opportunity to do right now?
999
01:16:31,548 --> 01:16:31,948
Exactly.
1000
01:16:32,228 --> 01:16:34,288
Like the principles of it all.
1001
01:16:34,748 --> 01:16:39,988
So I'll bring this up because at least you have an international audience.
1002
01:16:40,208 --> 01:16:41,848
It's a worthy discussion.
1003
01:16:42,388 --> 01:16:47,808
So we had a rugby match in Cape Town, South Africa,
1004
01:16:48,308 --> 01:16:52,448
and we had a flyover with commercial planes.
1005
01:16:52,648 --> 01:16:53,268
Planes, right.
1006
01:16:53,268 --> 01:16:53,728
Yeah, yeah.
1007
01:16:53,728 --> 01:16:57,928
Yeah, and everybody was, you know, talking about it.
1008
01:16:58,688 --> 01:17:02,248
And so for us, yes, was it law?
1009
01:17:02,308 --> 01:17:04,688
Yes, but, you know, it was coordinated and everything else.
1010
01:17:04,908 --> 01:17:06,168
Could something have gone wrong?
1011
01:17:06,168 --> 01:17:13,628
Yes, but they probably had, you know, whatever things in place to keep things from going wrong.
1012
01:17:13,888 --> 01:17:18,768
Because on the other side of it, we've been flying for over 100 years.
1013
01:17:18,768 --> 01:17:29,128
if we cannot safely coordinate a flyover over a stadium where we know the conditions where we can
1014
01:17:29,128 --> 01:17:37,468
you know map out or if this goes blah blah do one two three then are we even engineers or are we even
1015
01:17:37,468 --> 01:17:47,608
innovators as as a species right so um yeah um and yeah um at the same time i understand uh the um
1016
01:17:47,608 --> 01:17:54,188
What is this? The importance of safety, because, of course, if something goes wrong, stakes are high.
1017
01:17:54,308 --> 01:18:02,088
This is a stadium full of people. But at the same time, that technology of aviation,
1018
01:18:03,448 --> 01:18:27,631
isn it crazy that it hasn gotten to a point where people are comfortable enough to say oh OK that going to happen and nothing is going to go wrong Right And yeah And for me it weird because there so many instruments in an aircraft that are there to keep something from going wrong
1019
01:18:27,631 --> 01:18:32,011
but we now have self-driving cars
1020
01:18:32,011 --> 01:18:38,251
where the need or the importance of self-driving is safety.
1021
01:18:38,791 --> 01:18:43,891
The pitch is less accidents if the human is out of the loop, whatever else.
1022
01:18:44,611 --> 01:18:47,531
And planes have had that.
1023
01:18:47,531 --> 01:18:50,551
Well, not fully because they still have the pilot.
1024
01:18:50,971 --> 01:18:53,071
For the most part, they have had that.
1025
01:18:53,071 --> 01:19:10,911
And I'm like, why is it that the technology has enabled us to do these things, but the risk being there, because the risk is never zero, right, has kept us from embracing what the technology can do.
1026
01:19:12,291 --> 01:19:15,391
And yes, can something go wrong?
1027
01:19:15,611 --> 01:19:18,311
Yes, most definitely something can go wrong.
1028
01:19:18,311 --> 01:19:25,491
and it's probably a fetal event if something goes wrong and I feel like Bitcoin is the same thing
1029
01:19:25,491 --> 01:19:30,811
if if you're holding your own Bitcoin and you lose your keys or somebody steals your Bitcoin
1030
01:19:30,811 --> 01:19:37,231
that's almost a fetal event depending on how you take it um so I just want to clarify I think your
1031
01:19:37,231 --> 01:19:41,391
pronunciation some some listeners might not get it I think when you say fate you're saying it kind
1032
01:19:41,391 --> 01:19:45,491
of like fatal I think we would even fatal event meaning like a death event it's over you lost
1033
01:19:45,491 --> 01:19:49,171
the keys and it's over. Just wanted to clarify your pronunciation was a little bit strong with
1034
01:19:49,171 --> 01:19:52,931
that particular word, but I appreciate it. I agree with you. Yeah, yeah, that's okay. That's all right.
1035
01:19:52,931 --> 01:19:59,251
Please go. Please continue. Yeah, and for me, I'm like, okay, cool, but that risk doesn't mean we
1036
01:19:59,251 --> 01:20:05,931
shouldn't build. And that also doesn't mean we shouldn't innovate. And it also doesn't mean we
1037
01:20:05,931 --> 01:20:14,331
shouldn't experiment. So what can we do to ensure that we're building and we're experimenting in a
1038
01:20:14,331 --> 01:20:25,031
safe way. Yeah. And for me, that is the important thing. I feel like also people are not confident
1039
01:20:25,031 --> 01:20:32,151
enough to build, which is wrong. You know, just do it, man. And somebody smarter than you is going
1040
01:20:32,151 --> 01:20:38,391
to come around and tell you, I see what you're trying to do. Have you considered X minus Z? And
1041
01:20:38,391 --> 01:20:45,571
And then you've never heard about Z, but you look it up and then it fixes issues you never thought you even had.
1042
01:20:46,051 --> 01:20:49,831
So, yeah, for me, that's how I'm feeling right now.
1043
01:20:50,191 --> 01:20:51,211
It's amazing, too.
1044
01:20:51,231 --> 01:20:55,591
And I think I want to bring it full circle back to Mantra to conclude this.
1045
01:20:55,891 --> 01:21:06,271
And it's that if you are building, not everything needs to be super high stakes, meaning you don't have to develop a Bitcoin self-custody wallet or something like that where people lose all their funds if there's a bug in the code or something.
1046
01:21:06,271 --> 01:21:12,851
You can build mantra and you can help people translate, you know, have a different way to translate text into different African languages.
1047
01:21:13,331 --> 01:21:20,751
And in that process, you learn more about technology that can be applied to those more high stakes things when it comes to money and all of that kind of stuff.
1048
01:21:20,751 --> 01:21:27,611
so it seems like um it may be i don't know just thinking out loud here i'm not i'm obviously not
1049
01:21:27,611 --> 01:21:33,311
telling developers what to do but maybe the idea is like as you sort of get your confidence back
1050
01:21:33,311 --> 01:21:38,751
whenever i think whenever a collect an industry or a collective goes through the sort of trauma
1051
01:21:38,751 --> 01:21:43,831
that we've gone through in the last few weeks you know there's always a sort of like you know you
1052
01:21:43,831 --> 01:21:47,991
can only get punched so many times in the face before you yeah you need a minute maybe it's a
1053
01:21:47,991 --> 01:21:55,831
Maybe it means work on that side project a little bit more, play around, tinker with something that's a little bit more low stakes, build something you're really passionate about again.
1054
01:21:55,971 --> 01:22:03,711
And to use that kind of the analogy I was using with the artist, it's like an artist stepping back from the spotlight to say, you know what, I'm going to go play some songs in my room for a minute.
1055
01:22:03,851 --> 01:22:11,531
I'm just going to go over here and just like see what feels good again and kind of get my feet under me and just kind of remind myself why I got into this to begin with it.
1056
01:22:11,531 --> 01:22:19,751
So again, don't want to speak too much from the perspective of a developer here, but it seems like the time is right for something like that to go on.
1057
01:22:20,471 --> 01:22:28,951
And yeah, like I said, I was just super excited to see you put out Mantra because I think of you as such an insanely creative person.
1058
01:22:29,591 --> 01:22:37,251
And it's fun for me to hear all these components that you got to put together, but also to the point that you made about sometimes you start building this thing.
1059
01:22:37,251 --> 01:22:41,371
And maybe it's a person who comes along to say, hey, have you thought about this, as you mentioned?
1060
01:22:41,371 --> 01:22:49,771
But then also it's you're building Axonomia, you have this kind of issue with it and this, you know, this third party server situation.
1061
01:22:50,071 --> 01:22:54,911
And then all of a sudden Nostar happens and now it's like, OK, part of this is now solved and I can continue building.
1062
01:22:55,251 --> 01:22:58,431
I think that's the magic to this open source space as well. Right.
1063
01:22:58,491 --> 01:23:08,631
There's just I think that's also the reason to stay in this space, because whenever you hit what seems like a roadblock, all of a sudden here's a new thing that came out.
1064
01:23:08,631 --> 01:23:12,771
And the opposite side of that is also the danger of being an open source.
1065
01:23:12,771 --> 01:23:14,011
All of this code is exposed.
1066
01:23:14,011 --> 01:23:15,071
LLMs can scan it.
1067
01:23:15,071 --> 01:23:16,971
They can exploit it, all of that kind of stuff.
1068
01:23:17,271 --> 01:23:19,771
But it's almost like you don't get one without the other, right?
1069
01:23:19,771 --> 01:23:19,951
You
1070
01:23:19,993 --> 01:23:23,973
can't have this thing where people can help each other with also, you know, because of the
1071
01:23:23,973 --> 01:23:29,513
transparency of it all without potentially exposing attack vectors that can be exploited. So don't
1072
01:23:29,513 --> 01:23:34,693
not just kind of thinking through this on my own, you know, reflecting a little bit based on
1073
01:23:34,693 --> 01:23:39,153
everything that you shared today, but I'll stop my rambling and just say anything maybe we didn't
1074
01:23:39,153 --> 01:23:43,333
touch on or any call to action or any sort of last thoughts to maybe leave the audience with.
1075
01:23:44,013 --> 01:23:49,973
Yeah, well, I think you covered most of it. But I think to extend the point you are making,
1076
01:23:49,993 --> 01:24:00,633
is um well i'm also guilty of saying open source is dead right but um technically it's not right
1077
01:24:00,633 --> 01:24:09,273
it's it's everything is open source whether we like it or not um because on the other hand
1078
01:24:09,273 --> 01:24:15,013
And you could release your app and keep it closed source,
1079
01:24:15,733 --> 01:24:21,513
but now not everybody has to be skilled to decompile the app
1080
01:24:21,513 --> 01:24:23,873
and come up with the source code, right?
1081
01:24:24,053 --> 01:24:30,133
The LLM just sits there, issues a few agents,
1082
01:24:30,133 --> 01:24:34,113
and then decompiles and then comes up with what the source code would look like,
1083
01:24:34,213 --> 01:24:35,653
and then now you can work from there.
1084
01:24:35,653 --> 01:24:46,633
so whether or not you like it it whatever was closed source is open source right yep um and
1085
01:24:46,633 --> 01:24:56,193
even with uh what is this i think recently we had the spark uh uh reverse engineer uh thing um for
1086
01:24:56,193 --> 01:25:02,033
i think signet or something like that uh i don't know okay could you explain it a little bit if
1087
01:25:02,033 --> 01:25:07,313
don't mind? So Spark, LightSpark you're talking about? Yeah, LightSpark has, of course, the
1088
01:25:07,313 --> 01:25:14,193
solution, a layer two solution. It's mainnet and I think reg test. But developers were looking for
1089
01:25:14,193 --> 01:25:21,313
like a testnet version of it, or a SIGnet version of it. But they didn't build out the infrastructure
1090
01:25:21,313 --> 01:25:30,593
for that. So, Burn the Common, I believe, built out or reverse engineered the Spark server and
1091
01:25:30,593 --> 01:25:36,393
deployed it to testnet or whatever else but anyway he put out the code so anyone could literally
1092
01:25:36,393 --> 01:25:46,413
deploy a spark clone on their own infrastructure right so and the reason why he reversed engineered
1093
01:25:46,413 --> 01:25:54,393
it it's because that used to be closed source right um and now what used to be closed source
1094
01:25:54,393 --> 01:25:56,053
is no longer closed source.
1095
01:25:57,813 --> 01:25:58,533
Especially
1096
01:25:58,533 --> 01:26:00,373
if there's a motive to
1097
01:26:00,373 --> 01:26:02,413
either reverse engineer it or whatever
1098
01:26:02,413 --> 01:26:03,933
else. Now the thing is,
1099
01:26:04,253 --> 01:26:05,693
reverse engineering is not new.
1100
01:26:07,073 --> 01:26:08,473
Engineers have been reverse
1101
01:26:08,473 --> 01:26:10,353
engineering ever since the
1102
01:26:10,353 --> 01:26:11,533
beginning of time.
1103
01:26:12,633 --> 01:26:23,155
But now it never been easier to reverse engineer Oh this is deployed Tell you LLM look at this project These are the docs
1104
01:26:24,035 --> 01:26:30,855
Please implement a clone of it from what's available on the API.
1105
01:26:30,855 --> 01:26:39,395
And, yeah, then obviously the other side of it is assumptions.
1106
01:26:39,915 --> 01:26:40,115
Oh, yeah.
1107
01:26:40,215 --> 01:26:41,875
So this is the other side of it.
1108
01:26:41,875 --> 01:26:42,235
I'm sorry.
1109
01:26:42,715 --> 01:26:45,195
The unskilled person just reverse engineers.
1110
01:26:45,795 --> 01:26:51,195
The skilled person reverse engineers and then can make assumptions to say,
1111
01:26:51,195 --> 01:26:54,275
oh, this is built in this technology.
1112
01:26:54,615 --> 01:26:58,035
This might have these vulnerabilities if it's built in this technology.
1113
01:26:58,475 --> 01:27:02,355
And maybe even they reverse engineer it in multiple different technologies
1114
01:27:02,355 --> 01:27:07,235
just to figure out which technology has quirks and stuff like that.
1115
01:27:07,235 --> 01:27:15,915
And then you have a person who comes and knocks on your door, knowing that if they knock four times, the door will open.
1116
01:27:16,495 --> 01:27:18,095
And you never told anyone this.
1117
01:27:18,675 --> 01:27:29,775
And so that is the world we are living in where, oh, what used to be something that only a skilled person can do can almost be done by everyone.
1118
01:27:30,415 --> 01:27:34,555
But on top of that, that skilled person can take it to the next level.
1119
01:27:34,555 --> 01:27:40,595
and yeah so for me though the main thing is we just need to be building
1120
01:27:40,595 --> 01:27:52,855
and yeah we need to also learn so I honestly feel we are not applying those principles enough
1121
01:27:52,855 --> 01:28:00,875
and also the other thing we have to do which which is important right if you've ever used
1122
01:28:00,875 --> 01:28:08,235
anything any piece of technology um this laptop i'm using right now i need to be
1123
01:28:08,235 --> 01:28:16,715
you know working on it i need to be reviewing it um this platform you're on we need to say okay
1124
01:28:16,715 --> 01:28:21,555
since we're on this platform it's not a high stakes thing it's just a podcast but we need to
1125
01:28:21,555 --> 01:28:29,115
run um a review on everything we're using and everything we're trusting right so literally the
1126
01:28:29,115 --> 01:28:38,255
age-old saying don't trust verify uh has never been truer uh but yeah are we are we really
1127
01:28:38,255 --> 01:28:44,335
verifying well i think i think we're getting into the habit of doing so my only fear is that we
1128
01:28:44,335 --> 01:28:48,435
verify for a while then we get lazy again and then more stuff breaks and then we go back to
1129
01:28:48,435 --> 01:28:54,515
it's the human nature sort of loop we often find ourselves in though at the same time
1130
01:28:54,515 --> 01:29:04,475
you know I think certain people have been shook by recent events and I think it's at the very least
1131
01:29:04,475 --> 01:29:07,055
I think we're gonna be verifying for a while I don't think we're gonna stop
1132
01:29:07,055 --> 01:29:20,877
playing anytime soon and I think as LLM you know especially maybe maybe the new thing is that people get people feel the need especially the devs who are working on a project to re
1133
01:29:21,117 --> 01:29:23,577
to verify, to check their work for bugs, whatever it is,
1134
01:29:24,017 --> 01:29:27,297
when they hear that a new LLM is about to get released,
1135
01:29:27,377 --> 01:29:29,217
a new iteration of LLM or something,
1136
01:29:29,297 --> 01:29:31,817
maybe there's new things that prompt people to say,
1137
01:29:31,877 --> 01:29:33,597
you know what, I better go back and just do,
1138
01:29:33,957 --> 01:29:37,977
let me just leave my open source model to review my code for the night
1139
01:29:37,977 --> 01:29:40,377
while I'm sleeping, at least do that and then wake up in the morning.
1140
01:29:40,977 --> 01:29:41,957
Maybe. I don't know.
1141
01:29:42,097 --> 01:29:45,517
I mean, I just think for the time being, everybody's a little bit shook,
1142
01:29:45,577 --> 01:29:48,757
and I don't think it's going to be anytime soon that people just kind of step back
1143
01:29:48,757 --> 01:29:50,137
and don't verify.
1144
01:29:50,317 --> 01:29:52,917
I don't know if you mean the everyday person who has access to LLMs
1145
01:29:52,917 --> 01:29:54,297
who isn't necessarily technical.
1146
01:29:54,517 --> 01:29:55,317
The everyday person.
1147
01:29:55,637 --> 01:29:58,617
The everyday. Okay, sorry. My apologies then. Okay, got it.
1148
01:29:58,617 --> 01:30:03,057
Yeah, but of course, those who are skilled need to do it a lot more.
1149
01:30:03,697 --> 01:30:07,537
And I think the other thing to look out for is the social engineers.
1150
01:30:07,977 --> 01:30:17,077
Of course, they now have access to way better tools to social engineer you.
1151
01:30:17,917 --> 01:30:27,817
And it's going to get to a point where it's not about the bugs in your system,
1152
01:30:28,077 --> 01:30:31,177
but it's about the bugs being introduced in your system.
1153
01:30:31,177 --> 01:30:42,997
Like if somebody submits a pull request into an existing repo, that adds a bug or one third of a bug.
1154
01:30:43,597 --> 01:30:48,157
And then two months later adds another third of the bug.
1155
01:30:48,657 --> 01:30:57,117
And then six months later, they complete the puzzle piece and then they trigger the exploit.
1156
01:30:57,117 --> 01:31:09,417
obviously they can successfully hide this bug in multiple pieces but are you going to be able to
1157
01:31:09,417 --> 01:31:18,877
catch it right um and yeah so i think as soon as the social engineers uh understand the tech that
1158
01:31:18,877 --> 01:31:25,317
they're using we're in trouble but this is the then the sadder thing most social engineers are
1159
01:31:25,317 --> 01:31:32,877
not that smart they don't have to be that smart which is crazy right um when i'm like oh considering
1160
01:31:32,877 --> 01:31:39,737
what they pull off it's crazy that they don't even have to be that smart they they they can just
1161
01:31:39,737 --> 01:31:47,477
let's do it like this and um the crazy thing is if they find you on a bad day there's nothing you
1162
01:31:47,477 --> 01:31:54,037
can do about it right so um you just ran out of luck the social engineers found you on a bad day
1163
01:31:54,037 --> 01:31:55,597
And you fell for it.
1164
01:31:55,717 --> 01:31:57,397
So it is what it is.
1165
01:32:01,277 --> 01:32:02,397
I think we can leave it there.
1166
01:32:02,837 --> 01:32:04,317
I want to leave on an optimistic note.
1167
01:32:04,317 --> 01:32:16,479
Let say that with all the stuff that we talked about I know a lot of it is heavy and it kind of making us become a little bit more conscious about the way we interacting with this technology with code bases all this kind of stuff
1168
01:32:16,979 --> 01:32:30,939
I do think that the high note that I would maybe leave it on is that, as KG was saying, if you're in this space, Bitcoin, freedom tech, open source tech, we're bearing the brunt of this kind of stuff first.
1169
01:32:31,138 --> 01:32:34,419
And also, this stuff is happening with closed source stuff as well.
1170
01:32:34,419 --> 01:32:41,439
I was talking with Jan Pritzker from Swan the other day, and he was saying like banks have to deal with this.
1171
01:32:41,559 --> 01:32:43,659
They just don't publicize when they have to deal with this.
1172
01:32:43,719 --> 01:32:45,018
So it is happening as well.
1173
01:32:45,219 --> 01:32:53,898
But the good side to what we're dealing with is that generally speaking, it kind of seems like this space is first in terms of maybe the scale of the attacks.
1174
01:32:54,039 --> 01:32:56,258
Again, we don't know what else is happening behind the scenes.
1175
01:32:56,258 --> 01:33:00,499
But at the same time, I think it's been a really good wake up call.
1176
01:33:00,499 --> 01:33:04,939
And I think it does bring, ultimately, it does bring us to a bit of a new level of consciousness.
1177
01:33:05,338 --> 01:33:12,299
When it comes to the social attack stuff, ideally, we become, I don't know, that stuff is always sort of changing.
1178
01:33:12,439 --> 01:33:18,479
So I was going to say become more mindful of what it might look like, but it's always sort of iterating upon itself.
1179
01:33:18,599 --> 01:33:24,838
So I will just stop there and say simply that, KG, I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to do this.
1180
01:33:25,239 --> 01:33:27,318
I love what you've built with mantra.
1181
01:33:27,518 --> 01:33:28,778
I think it's super, super cool.
1182
01:33:28,778 --> 01:33:40,118
And I say that again as someone who's a proponent of this technology, interested in this technology, but also someone who was a language teacher and someone who wants to see knowledge about Bitcoin spread as far and wide as possible.
1183
01:33:40,119 --> 01:33:55,239
I think enabling people through these tools to do this sort of translation to get this information into the hands of people, especially those who speak more niche or languages that don't have as many, not as many people speak those languages.
1184
01:33:55,919 --> 01:34:04,919
It's amazing that there's more opportunity now for text to get translated into those languages thanks to the work that you've done and the precedent that you've set with Exxonomia.
1185
01:34:04,919 --> 01:34:07,118
So really, really, really cool stuff.
1186
01:34:07,278 --> 01:34:10,778
And generally speaking, love hearing your thoughts on general state of all things,
1187
01:34:10,859 --> 01:34:14,998
Bitcoin and Freedom Check and everything else we touched on towards the latter part of this conversation.
1188
01:34:14,998 --> 01:34:17,659
So sincerely appreciate taking the time to do this.
1189
01:34:17,758 --> 01:34:23,898
Looking forward to seeing people start using Mantra and also everything that the process of you building it
1190
01:34:23,898 --> 01:34:28,338
then informs with the next steps for you with Machankora and whatever else,
1191
01:34:28,458 --> 01:34:31,758
Torch, as you mentioned, and anything else you end up working on.
1192
01:34:31,758 --> 01:34:35,179
So thank you so much for all you do for the ecosystem, for taking the time today.
1193
01:34:35,479 --> 01:34:36,578
It was a pleasure having you on.
1194
01:34:36,838 --> 01:34:38,078
And yeah, we'll talk soon.
1195
01:34:38,778 --> 01:34:40,299
Thank you for having me, man.
1196
01:34:40,618 --> 01:34:42,278
And yeah, wonderful stuff you're doing.
1197
01:34:42,599 --> 01:34:45,659
Always appreciate to see the conversation you share.
1198
01:34:46,299 --> 01:34:48,099
And yeah, to many more.
1199
01:34:48,398 --> 01:34:49,438
And peace.
1200
01:34:50,078 --> 01:34:50,698
Amen to that.
1201
01:34:50,838 --> 01:34:51,378
Peace, everybody.
1202
01:34:51,498 --> 01:34:51,998
We'll talk soon.
1203
01:35:01,758 --> 01:35:02,758
Thank you.