The Delta Force and DEVGRU Op Nobody Talks About: Hunting Pablo Escobar | Ep. 312

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[UNKNOWN]: We were in many not very long and they called us back to Bogotá of the Embassy and we met accounting Jerry Boykin, Colonel Jerry Boykin, who ultimately became the head of all special operators.
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[UNKNOWN]: Introduced us, we've got some military resources, we're going to put up there with you called Delta, Delta Force.
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[UNKNOWN]: I mean, they're legends and their myths, you don't know if they're real or not, but they are real.
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[UNKNOWN]: A couple days go by and they call us back to Bogotá again and say we've got another group we're going to bring up here with you and it's called tilting six.
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[UNKNOWN]: They brought assets, the things that I've never seen or re-dripped of.
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[UNKNOWN]: Make no mistake about this was a war, this wasn't just drug trafficking, this was a war.
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[UNKNOWN]: We're going up against people that have Galyl, 7.62s, RPGs, hangar nades.
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[UNKNOWN]: If they would have allowed our operators to do their job, we honestly believe that we would have captured Pablo Escobar with in three weeks, certainly not three months, not more than three months after his escape.
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[UNKNOWN]: Because this kernel continually roadblocked the green goes and everything we want to do, you've got the best operators in the world that won't go out and do what they do.
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[UNKNOWN]: Do you think that without the U.S. involvement plumbia would have ever captured them?
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[UNKNOWN]: Ladies and gentlemen, as always, it's both an honor and a pleasure to welcome my next guest to the podcast.
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[UNKNOWN]: He's a retired DEA Special Agent in Bogota and Medi-Een from 91 to 94 accredited with taking down Pablo Escobar, he's a technical consultant for Narcos, he's the real agent portrayed in the series.
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[UNKNOWN]: He's a co-author of Man Hunters, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the stage Steve Murphy.
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[UNKNOWN]: Thank you very much.
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[UNKNOWN]: It's humbling and embarrassing for you to introduce me like that, but thank you.
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[UNKNOWN]: I mean, the truth hurts, I guess.
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[UNKNOWN]: Man, it's an honor to sit down and meet in an interview.
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[UNKNOWN]: I remember watching that show when it first came out.
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[UNKNOWN]: It's kind of surreal to be sitting across from here right now after watching that.
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[UNKNOWN]: I know you were technically well consulting.
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[UNKNOWN]: I know there's a lot of...
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[UNKNOWN]: Liberties that Hollywood tends to take with stuff like that which we'll for sure get into kind of the disparity, but Just the story overall Just such a magnificent piece of history and and like I said just it's an honor to sit down.
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[UNKNOWN]: Please appreciate it I'll tell you what comes from somebody like you That's why I'm humbled.
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[UNKNOWN]: I appreciate what you say.
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[UNKNOWN]: Thank you very much.
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[UNKNOWN]: Oh, yeah, thank you What's the last book that you've read?
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[UNKNOWN]: Red
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[UNKNOWN]: So in my podcast, if my guest has a book, I try to read it.
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[UNKNOWN]: So the most recent was John Constantin, who was with the counter assault team with the US Secret Service, and he's got a book out stairwells and something else, I'm sorry, John, I can't remember when they had titled your book, but it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it
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[UNKNOWN]: It's different from most of the books I read because he talks about self-help, how to do yourself out of a hole.
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[UNKNOWN]: He went through some depression, anxiety, PTSD, if you want to call it that.
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[UNKNOWN]: Realize what it was and was able to pull himself up.
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[UNKNOWN]: So it's not only a self-help book, but he applies real life examples that he experienced himself, which keeps it interesting because it almost comes off as a textbook to start with.
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[UNKNOWN]: Oh, that's cool, and he was on your show recently.
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[UNKNOWN]: He's about as he come out yet.
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[UNKNOWN]: I think, yeah, he came out last week, I'm sorry.
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[UNKNOWN]: Do you have a favorite quote?
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[UNKNOWN]: I'm not a bunch of them.
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[UNKNOWN]: I grew up in the southeast, and I'm just an old southern country boy.
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[UNKNOWN]: My favorite, I guess, is if you've got a teaching on hornet's probably not worth to, that's awesome.
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[UNKNOWN]: And a lot of people are quite that to try to be humble.
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[UNKNOWN]: You know, we know, and when I say the way I'm talking about my old DEA partner, I have your opinion, we know the Eskabork case was a case of a lifetime.
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[UNKNOWN]: But I never felt that I'd just met the challenge, I think, as the way I would look at it.
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[UNKNOWN]: There was nothing special about it.
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[UNKNOWN]: We just happened to be the two guys that were assigned to do that and didn't know each other, and we complimented each other because we could plead opposites, and we were successful.
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[UNKNOWN]: I mean, it's a great perspective to have, I know that you certainly see some of those parallels in the military with some groups, units, guys, whatever, get certain missions, and while I do understand what you mean about
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[UNKNOWN]: Some of it is the luck of the job, but there's there's for sure more to it than that and I think that's where your ability comes in is that I don't know that Any two DE agents could have pulled off what you guys pulled off either, you know But you know everyone I would want to try for sure.
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[UNKNOWN]: They would yeah, yeah, absolutely, but yeah, that's a great quote I appreciate it Where's your favorite thing to do growing up?
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[UNKNOWN]: Well, as a young kid in Tennessee, just being out with your buddies, you know, just getting into what you ever could get into.
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[UNKNOWN]: We lived out in the country.
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[UNKNOWN]: We lived down the edge of town in Murphy'sboro, which is back then was a little town out.
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[UNKNOWN]: It's like Nashville, South.
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[UNKNOWN]: Then we moved to West Virginia as I was going into high school.
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[UNKNOWN]: And my dad was a Southern Baptist minister as I was growing up, it was kind of a strict household, but it's been a lot of time in the church.
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[UNKNOWN]: I was the proverbial P.K.
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[UNKNOWN]: preacher's kid that's always in trouble, which I'm not proud of now.
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[UNKNOWN]: I was talking to Clint Bruce this morning before I came over to see you and just telling you when I get to heaven, I know my mom and dad lots of Apologies for being the jerk.
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[UNKNOWN]: It's a kid.
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[UNKNOWN]: That's all part of growing up, I guess.
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[UNKNOWN]: How would you characterize your childhood generally speaking?
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[UNKNOWN]: Lots of time outdoor sports or what were kind of some of the impactful moments growing up?
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[UNKNOWN]: living in Tennessee, everything was outside, you know, we didn't have a lot, just blue collar family.
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[UNKNOWN]: I wasn't a road scholar in school, but you know, I did, I did well.
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[UNKNOWN]: Just hanging out with your friends, getting into some mischief, I had my first running with the police when I was about 10 years old.
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[UNKNOWN]: Well, it was summertime in Murphy's Brewer and we were camping out in the back yards and of course, you know, mom and dad are sleeping so about one o'clock in the morning, you're riding your bikes in the neighborhood and doing things not supposed to do and went to a laundry, all night laundry mat, where they had vending machines and we wanted some sodas and some crackers and of course we none of us had any money so we came up with this master criminal plan to break into a house and steal money.
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[UNKNOWN]: Oh, man.
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[UNKNOWN]: So we went over to a house and we're outside and we're
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[UNKNOWN]: We're trying to figure out how we're going to break in a house and about that time a police car pulls up and hits us with that spotlight.
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[UNKNOWN]: We were so scared.
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[UNKNOWN]: We were like a deer in the headlights.
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[UNKNOWN]: We didn't run.
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[UNKNOWN]: We were just frozen.
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[UNKNOWN]: And two uniforms came over and asked us what we're doing.
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[UNKNOWN]: And you know, it wasn't like they portray on TV where they come running at you and tackling you to the ground.
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[UNKNOWN]: It's always what you're doing.
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[UNKNOWN]: And we gave it up, and you can see them look at each other and they looked at us and found one, I'm said, boys, y'all got a decision to make tonight.
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[UNKNOWN]: You either come with us and go to prison for the rest of your lives or we take you home to your parents.
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[UNKNOWN]: And we all looked at each other and said, thanks to Jill, we don't want to go home.
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[UNKNOWN]: Because we knew what was gonna happen, and of course they got a nice chuckle out of it and took us home, and we didn't camp out the rest of the summer that's for sure.
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[UNKNOWN]: But just getting into Michigan for being a kid, but back then, neighborhood dads would discipline boys, and they have to be their boy.
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[UNKNOWN]: There was one time they were building new houses in our neighborhood and we're just in there feeling around you to get the rough studs in and everything and we thought it'd be a good idea to start a little fire in there and dad came by and tuned this up as much as my dad would have.
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[UNKNOWN]: And you know what?
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[UNKNOWN]: It worked.
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[UNKNOWN]: It's straight this out.
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[UNKNOWN]: It was just different times back then.
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[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, I wish it was still that way, you know, I think, you know, communities thrive when the, you know, takes a village to raise a child mentality as applied, you know, have to look at one of the biggest hurdles or probably even downfalls in our society is the lack of that nowadays, you know, I mean,
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[UNKNOWN]: Of course, there's a happy medium.
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[UNKNOWN]: You know, you don't want Gestapo's running around, you know, a bunch of house dads running around, cracking the whip on everybody, nonstop.
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[UNKNOWN]: But, you know, the reality is in the litigious society that we live in today, it would be impossible.
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[UNKNOWN]: I mean, people would be getting sued and thrown in jail left and right for doing anything like that.
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[UNKNOWN]: But, oh, you're not kidding.
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[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
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[UNKNOWN]: We moved to West Virginia as I'm going into high school.
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[UNKNOWN]: So I've got no friends now.
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[UNKNOWN]: That was, you know, I think that probably changed my personality because I, in Tennessee, I was one of the popular kids and I get to West Virginia and they're making fun of my Tennessee accent and I'm looking at if they don't think and have you guys heard yourselves talk?
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[UNKNOWN]: Oh, it's that different on Tennessee to us Virginia.
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[UNKNOWN]: Oh yeah, the Tennessee is not in Latin fact that I has very strong and it's not, it's not another.
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[UNKNOWN]: It wasn't in Southern West Virginia.
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[UNKNOWN]: I try it out for sports, I suck at football, you know, never made the team had two really, really close friends that were still best friends today.
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[UNKNOWN]: But, you know, I think that running with the cops when I was 10, and I don't consciously remember that, but looking back in your life, that's the only incident I can think of that got me interested in law enforcement, and I can remember going through junior high school and people say what do you want to do, and I just want to be a police officer.
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[UNKNOWN]: My dad retired from the ministry, him and my uncle opened a carpet store in Princeton, West Virginia.
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[UNKNOWN]: Successful, they had three different stores at one point.
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[UNKNOWN]: And I was only son of both family, so it was always expected for me to take over the family business.
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[UNKNOWN]: So I started working in there at 14.
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[UNKNOWN]: And I didn't like it then, and as I got older, and that...
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[UNKNOWN]: that hatred grew, that didn't like it at all.
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[UNKNOWN]: It's, you know, and my dad was, you start sweeping the floors and cleaning the bathrooms and you weren't, you don't, you're not giving anything because you're the owner son.
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[UNKNOWN]: You've got to earn everything.
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[UNKNOWN]: Which,
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[UNKNOWN]: now as a father and a grandfather I look back on it and I thought wow what a good work ethic lesson to teach you because that has you know that's evolved into the point where I'm at my age now and I still work as many hours as I did when I was a DE agent let me tell you those are some long hours yeah
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[UNKNOWN]: Was there a catalyst beyond that that kind of spearheaded you getting into law enforcement generally speaking because it at first year with the rail road correct or Start out the city officer and it was so I go to a Goat college at West Virginia University that was
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[UNKNOWN]: One stupid thing I ever did in my life is I was way too immature to be away from home.
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[UNKNOWN]: And I made it one semester and got put on academic probation in my dad's side.
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[UNKNOWN]: I don't pay for that.
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[UNKNOWN]: You're coming home.
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[UNKNOWN]: So I came home and at Christmas time.
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[UNKNOWN]: then in January enrolled in Bluefield State College was one of the local state colleges and they had just started a criminal justice program and at West Virginia University I was enrolled in business and I wasn't doing good economics, I like kind of stuff, I just didn't have the interest.
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[UNKNOWN]: And so I just went ahead and wrote in the CJA program, we feel state and didn't tell my parents because I thought, well, I just pull one over on them.
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[UNKNOWN]: And parents are always smarter than we ever given credit for.
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[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
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[UNKNOWN]: But that first semester just fell in love with it.
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[UNKNOWN]: Took CJA 101 and,
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[UNKNOWN]: love that, you know, now I'm making the A's and try to bring my grades up from WVU, but then that summer they introduced the internship program for the criminal justice program.
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[UNKNOWN]: So I was the first person to enroll in that and I did one summer session with the CD Police in Bluefield and I did one summer session with the County Sheriff's Office, Mercy County Sheriff's Office, and it just, man, I loved everything about it.
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[UNKNOWN]: So we come back for the fall semester,
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[UNKNOWN]: I'm 18 years old, the guy in charge of the criminal justice department comes in and announces to everybody that they're going to give the civil service test for law enforcement and he's encouraging everybody to take the test and he knew I wanted to be a cop.
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[UNKNOWN]: So he came to me after class, he said, you know, Steve, you need to take this test.
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[UNKNOWN]: I said, isn't that very well?
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[UNKNOWN]: That's a Mr. Wilson.
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[UNKNOWN]: I'm only 18 years old, you know, they're not going to hire me and he said, you're not going to get hired.
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[UNKNOWN]: You just need that experience of taking the test so that when you do reach the age, you
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[UNKNOWN]: said, I make a perfect sense.
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[UNKNOWN]: So I go take the civil service test and I end up scoring 10 points higher than anybody.
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[UNKNOWN]: That was number one on the list.
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[UNKNOWN]: Wow.
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[UNKNOWN]: And the city offered me a job.
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[UNKNOWN]: No way.
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[UNKNOWN]: So it's a little 35 man department.
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[UNKNOWN]: I turn 19 in October of 1975 in November.
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[UNKNOWN]: I got hired as a police officer.
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[UNKNOWN]: I couldn't buy a gun, I couldn't buy bullets, I couldn't buy cigarettes, I couldn't buy beer, but I could carry a weapon and use it if you thought you were legally justified.
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[UNKNOWN]: And back then, the city provided you uniforms, but you had to provide your leather during your weapon.
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[UNKNOWN]: So, one policeman Kelly Walls who's still good friends, I gave him the money he went and bought me a coat python 4-inch 357 Magnum.
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[UNKNOWN]: And my dad bought me several boxes of bullets.
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[UNKNOWN]: And off I went and spent 38 years as a cop after that.
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[UNKNOWN]: Man, that's incredible.
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[UNKNOWN]: What a strange oversight in the hiring process.
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[UNKNOWN]: You know what?
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[UNKNOWN]: I mean, you look at it now and it maybe just comes.
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[UNKNOWN]: I'm getting older.
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[UNKNOWN]: I was way too young to...
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[UNKNOWN]: being that role, but there were other guys like me and we weren't making mistakes, you know, we took it seriously, even though it's just a small town, we took it very seriously and came home from the in West Virginia.
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[UNKNOWN]: the state and local officers go to the western state police academy and back then it was a three-month course and the troops go that the troopers go for six months so it was a abbreviated course but you had to live there to academy you could go home a weekend so I came home one weekend and this is the it's probably like February or March of 76 and my best friend who joined the police department Jackie was hooked up with him he was off duty and we went to see a buddy of ours at
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[UNKNOWN]: I'm like, really?
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[UNKNOWN]: Well, he's telling you one, and he said, yeah, we said, calling him up, we'll see if he'll deliver.
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[UNKNOWN]: Sure enough, the 70 year old kid comes rolling into the gas station, and our buddy brings him back to the back of the garage bay, and we're just hiding in the closet there.
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[UNKNOWN]: And he pulls out this bag of weed and gives it to our friend.
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[UNKNOWN]: And the TV stuff is just so outrageous.
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[UNKNOWN]: I guess for you guys too, the operators.
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[UNKNOWN]: We just stepped out and say, pal, how you doing?
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[UNKNOWN]: What you got there?
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[UNKNOWN]: It wasn't tackling his kid and slamming the ground all that stuff and he said, oh hey, you know, he could tell he's like, who are you guys?
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[UNKNOWN]: And so we said, we're police officers, you know, just stand by.
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[UNKNOWN]: We did a field task test and pause and said, come on, you're going with us, a couple of people talking about the police station in our personal cars.
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[UNKNOWN]: So we come rolling in on the desk sergeant.
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[UNKNOWN]: He's in there and he's like, what are you guys doing?
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[UNKNOWN]: We said, we just cut this kid, because selling pounds of weed.
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[UNKNOWN]: And like, who sent you out there to do that?
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[UNKNOWN]: Well, nobody, we're police officers.
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[UNKNOWN]: Who knows you're doing that?
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[UNKNOWN]: You do, you're this sergeant, you're just sergeant on duty.
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[UNKNOWN]: All right, he didn't even know what to do.
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[UNKNOWN]: So he calls in the detective on call, so Detective Roger Whitt shows up, and he was a younger guy, he was a lot of fun.
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[UNKNOWN]: And he asked the same questions.
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[UNKNOWN]: And he said, where did you guys get the idea to do this?
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[UNKNOWN]: And we just thought, well, it's against the law and we ran into a friend who knew this kid doing it.
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[UNKNOWN]: So we decided we didn't force the law.
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[UNKNOWN]: And taking a pound of weed back in 1976, the Bluefield West Virginia was big dope.
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[UNKNOWN]: And so they call the kids father.
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[UNKNOWN]: He's 17 years old.
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[UNKNOWN]: And you can tell this dad is not happy.
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[UNKNOWN]: You know, there's going to be a last plane in to do and this boy gets home.
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[UNKNOWN]: And so Roger comes to us and, you know, again, we don't know our butt from home on the ground.
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[UNKNOWN]: And he said, guys, what do you want to do with this case?
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[UNKNOWN]: We say, well, we're not sure what we're supposed to do, what are we doing?
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[UNKNOWN]: And he says, well, I've got a suggestion for you.
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[UNKNOWN]: What if he said, you saw this kid's dad out there, right?
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[UNKNOWN]: He said, down, he said, you see how upset he is?
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[UNKNOWN]: You know, he's going to take care of business at home.
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[UNKNOWN]: We said, yeah.
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[UNKNOWN]: He said, what if you just don't charge this kid and just let dad straight it out?
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[UNKNOWN]: You don't want to run a 17 year old kid's life.
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[UNKNOWN]: And at 18, it starts all over, because it's juvenile records going to be sealed.
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[UNKNOWN]: And we said, right, if you think that's right thing to do, that's what we'll do.
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[UNKNOWN]: So we didn't charge a kid.
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[UNKNOWN]: Now, fast forward to maybe six or eight years ago.
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[UNKNOWN]: When I retired from the police department or from law enforcement completely in 2013, you couldn't find me on social media.
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[UNKNOWN]: Because of our, because of Narcos with Netflix, and because of how you're nice to be our keynote-speaking business, we use social media for marketing just like everybody else does now.
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[UNKNOWN]: And on Facebook, I just happened to, I don't really enjoy being on social media.
18:05.224 --> 18:08.406
[UNKNOWN]: I guess it's fun to see what your friends are up to.
18:08.526 --> 18:18.031
[UNKNOWN]: But I saw a message on there, this guy was saying, I'm telling you that guy Murphy is the guy that arrested me when I was a kid and cut me a break.
18:18.671 --> 18:24.795
[UNKNOWN]: And so we switched over to direct messaging, which took me probably a couple days to figure out what that waiting was.
18:25.775 --> 18:27.696
[UNKNOWN]: And I said, hey, it's Steve Murphy, man.
18:29.605 --> 18:33.547
[UNKNOWN]: And he just, he could not stop thinking me for cutting him a break.
18:33.787 --> 18:38.149
[UNKNOWN]: But that's back when law enforcement had discretion on how to handle situation.
18:38.949 --> 18:40.890
[UNKNOWN]: And so I said, well, how did your life turn out?
18:40.910 --> 18:41.971
[UNKNOWN]: And he's like, man, I'm married.
18:41.991 --> 18:42.631
[UNKNOWN]: I've got children.
18:42.671 --> 18:43.571
[UNKNOWN]: I'm actually retired.
18:43.611 --> 18:46.893
[UNKNOWN]: Now, successful business man, expected in her first grandchild.
18:46.913 --> 18:48.213
[UNKNOWN]: And he said, no, this would have been possible.
18:48.253 --> 18:49.434
[UNKNOWN]: If you didn't cut me the break back then.
18:50.955 --> 18:52.557
[UNKNOWN]: And that's not why I cut the break.
18:52.597 --> 18:55.840
[UNKNOWN]: I cut the break cause that's what the deck thought was the right thing to do.
18:55.880 --> 18:56.921
[UNKNOWN]: And he was absolutely right.
18:57.982 --> 19:02.386
[UNKNOWN]: Now days people don't want law enforcement have that discretion on the street.
19:02.447 --> 19:04.829
[UNKNOWN]: They want it to be black and white and it's never black and white.
19:05.532 --> 19:05.992
[UNKNOWN]: No, I agree.
19:06.012 --> 19:07.032
[UNKNOWN]: I'm that's a great story.
19:07.052 --> 19:18.614
[UNKNOWN]: I think discretion where it's tricky is, you know, when it gets used unfairly both ways, you know, when grudges or emotion are involved.
19:18.694 --> 19:29.016
[UNKNOWN]: Or, you know, I think, unfortunately there's been enough instances that have kind of spoiled the public's trust in the use of discretion.
19:29.036 --> 19:31.657
[UNKNOWN]: But I agree, I would rather it be that way, you know,
19:33.157 --> 19:58.322
[UNKNOWN]: that just makes better sense, you know, but I am curious that being that young as a cop, I mean, is there ever like kind of almost a weird conflict internally when you're pulling over a 50-year-old guy and telling him to slow down, I mean, it's almost like you're, I mean, I've run into that, you know, at 48, I've been pulled over by guys and they're like, you really need to slow it down, I'm like, dude, does your mom know you're even a cop?
19:59.402 --> 20:10.590
[UNKNOWN]: you're telling me like I need to watch what I'm doing like who are you you know I mean and I get that that's how it is and I would rather have young capable guys you know doing that job but but it is a little weird no.
20:12.091 --> 20:17.675
[UNKNOWN]: It was but you know respect opens a lot of doors and stops a lot of conflict.
20:20.495 --> 20:22.557
[UNKNOWN]: I wanted to cuff kid growing up in school.
20:22.777 --> 20:24.719
[UNKNOWN]: You know, I had my share of fights, but I'm not tough guy.
20:25.419 --> 20:28.662
[UNKNOWN]: And I wasn't trying to be a tough guy, putting on a uniform.
20:28.682 --> 20:30.203
[UNKNOWN]: I thought it was the coolest job in the world.
20:32.665 --> 20:41.992
[UNKNOWN]: Went in with the attitude that this is what you do to help people, you know, as a Christian, I believe that God gives us gifts and I think one of my gifts is service.
20:42.072 --> 20:43.253
[UNKNOWN]: And that's the service to other people.
20:43.573 --> 20:45.975
[UNKNOWN]: And that's, as a cop, you are a public servant.
20:46.195 --> 20:47.796
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, it's right there in the title, right?
20:48.617 --> 20:56.019
[UNKNOWN]: And that title, a lot of people look at that as a derogatory term that, oh, you're just, you know, my tax is pay your salary.
20:56.699 --> 20:58.420
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, well, when you need help, who do you call?
20:59.320 --> 21:02.561
[UNKNOWN]: It's not Ghostbusters that you call us, where you call the fire department.
21:02.581 --> 21:04.961
[UNKNOWN]: You call public servants.
21:04.981 --> 21:09.163
[UNKNOWN]: So just because you put that uniform on, you're legally carrying again.
21:09.183 --> 21:11.063
[UNKNOWN]: This was back before everybody was carrying a gun.
21:11.083 --> 21:15.504
[UNKNOWN]: That doesn't make you any more important than anybody else.
21:19.110 --> 21:36.194
[UNKNOWN]: regular private citizens do not have, you can legally take a life, and thank God I didn't, but you need to understand what your role is and that you are a public servant and people need you when they're having the worst time of their life.
21:36.274 --> 21:39.254
[UNKNOWN]: They don't call you when they're having a good party, you know, everything's going good.
21:39.554 --> 21:41.035
[UNKNOWN]: Officer, come on over, you know,
21:49.780 --> 21:50.140
[UNKNOWN]: I don't know.
21:50.761 --> 21:54.424
[UNKNOWN]: Probably five warning tickets to one good ticket.
21:54.584 --> 21:57.486
[UNKNOWN]: But she still got the point across and just be respectful.
21:57.727 --> 21:57.927
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
21:58.207 --> 21:58.407
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
21:58.607 --> 21:59.668
[UNKNOWN]: I love that attitude.
21:59.708 --> 22:00.329
[UNKNOWN]: Sure.
22:01.229 --> 22:09.176
[UNKNOWN]: How did that transpire until ultimately being going into the DEA from small town cop to drug enforcement agency?
22:09.973 --> 22:12.996
[UNKNOWN]: Well, I got married at a really young age too young.
22:13.016 --> 22:14.418
[UNKNOWN]: I had two signs.
22:14.478 --> 22:18.422
[UNKNOWN]: I'd refer to that marriage as my practice marriage.
22:19.283 --> 22:22.146
[UNKNOWN]: But my wife was in college.
22:23.507 --> 22:24.989
[UNKNOWN]: We've got a little too bedroom house.
22:26.450 --> 22:27.512
[UNKNOWN]: I'm making like $9600 a year.
22:29.975 --> 22:32.697
[UNKNOWN]: It's not enough money, even back then it wasn't enough money to live off of.
22:33.178 --> 22:37.762
[UNKNOWN]: I'm taking every off duty job I can get, I'm working as much over time as I can possibly get.
22:38.802 --> 22:43.166
[UNKNOWN]: I worked for a fireman as electricians help, because that paid pretty well on duty.
22:44.567 --> 22:51.733
[UNKNOWN]: I landed the security contract for the Bluefield State College basketball team, we had a really good basketball team back then, so I got the security contract for that.
22:51.753 --> 22:53.995
[UNKNOWN]: I even sold Amway.
22:56.282 --> 22:57.042
[UNKNOWN]: Not a lot of it.
22:57.163 --> 23:12.749
[UNKNOWN]: That wasn't in Narko as well, though, but you know, it's just it's responsibility of, and I know ladies, I don't mean to sound sexist when I say this, but in my mind, it's responsibility of a man taking care of his family.
23:12.989 --> 23:13.330
[UNKNOWN]: I agree.
23:13.990 --> 23:16.251
[UNKNOWN]: I think we have that responsibility now.
23:17.645 --> 23:20.250
[UNKNOWN]: My wife now, I think this was going to last.
23:20.270 --> 23:21.552
[UNKNOWN]: We've been married 42 years.
23:21.572 --> 23:23.496
[UNKNOWN]: We dated for four years before that.
23:23.536 --> 23:24.618
[UNKNOWN]: So we've been together forever.
23:27.042 --> 23:29.306
[UNKNOWN]: She probably would be happy to hear me say that.
23:30.702 --> 23:34.564
[UNKNOWN]: She's the tough one in our family, you know, and that's she was independent.
23:34.584 --> 23:37.805
[UNKNOWN]: That's what she was willing to take experience new things.
23:38.766 --> 23:41.747
[UNKNOWN]: I taught her how to snowsky, third time down the hill I can catch her.
23:41.767 --> 23:44.408
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, she's just riding motorcycles.
23:44.468 --> 23:45.169
[UNKNOWN]: My first better.
23:45.209 --> 23:46.269
[UNKNOWN]: I used to ride motorcycles.
23:46.329 --> 23:46.729
[UNKNOWN]: She did too.
23:46.749 --> 23:50.811
[UNKNOWN]: And I thought, how can you not love a woman that owns her own motorcycle?
23:51.451 --> 23:55.653
[UNKNOWN]: But then later after we adopted her daughters, she became a mom, she became a mom.
23:55.893 --> 23:58.755
[UNKNOWN]: You know, so I don't know.
23:58.795 --> 23:59.055
[UNKNOWN]: It just,
24:00.742 --> 24:02.302
[UNKNOWN]: It just seems like that's what you're supposed to do.
24:02.562 --> 24:04.263
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
24:04.983 --> 24:11.225
[UNKNOWN]: And so it was it right after you got married, you decided to try out for the DEA, or was there a transition?
24:11.265 --> 24:11.365
[UNKNOWN]: Oh.
24:11.745 --> 24:18.186
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so what happened was go through divorce with my first wife and it was ugly.
24:18.246 --> 24:18.406
[UNKNOWN]: And...
24:21.732 --> 24:26.895
[UNKNOWN]: There was a former bluefield police officer that had gone over to the railroad police.
24:27.896 --> 24:32.358
[UNKNOWN]: And he was already about to a captain had down Norfolk, Virginia, and he called me.
24:32.378 --> 24:36.921
[UNKNOWN]: And he said, he said, I heard you're interested in a railroad cop and to pay with double.
24:38.161 --> 24:41.883
[UNKNOWN]: And he said, I've got three openings coming up here in Norfolk, Virginia, so you have to move down here.
24:41.923 --> 24:43.044
[UNKNOWN]: But if you won't, I'll give you one.
24:43.784 --> 24:44.245
[UNKNOWN]: So I did.
24:45.465 --> 24:46.226
[UNKNOWN]: So I moved down there.
24:48.982 --> 24:55.548
[UNKNOWN]: Still didn't even know my paid double on paying child support and all that and Made every single payment.
24:55.568 --> 24:56.349
[UNKNOWN]: I was never late.
24:56.650 --> 25:09.882
[UNKNOWN]: So all you did dogs out there that aren't making your payments do it That's pet pee if I guess But Did two years there and but I want to be closer to my my sons back in the West Virginia.
25:09.902 --> 25:12.465
[UNKNOWN]: So I got a transfer back to bluefield West Virginia
25:15.425 --> 25:18.727
[UNKNOWN]: As a city cop and even as a railroad cop, I've been in a lot of shootings.
25:18.747 --> 25:27.472
[UNKNOWN]: I don't know why, I just don't want to say I'm a bullet magnet, but I've been in more than most police officers.
25:27.492 --> 25:30.874
[UNKNOWN]: I hear about police officers that say they never pulled their gun in a 30-year career.
25:30.914 --> 25:31.495
[UNKNOWN]: I'm thinking...
25:32.594 --> 25:34.275
[UNKNOWN]: What'd you do stay in the station all the time?
25:34.315 --> 25:35.555
[UNKNOWN]: Did you ever go on the street?
25:35.695 --> 25:37.495
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, did you never answer a call?
25:38.396 --> 25:42.177
[UNKNOWN]: If you go into a building that's been broken into, you think you might pull your weapon out of the holster?
25:42.537 --> 25:42.797
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
25:43.257 --> 25:44.678
[UNKNOWN]: So I don't understand.
25:45.078 --> 25:48.459
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe they mean that they never pulled the trigger on their gun, except on the firing rate.
25:48.519 --> 25:49.899
[UNKNOWN]: OK, that's understand that.
25:50.779 --> 25:51.279
[UNKNOWN]: But I did.
25:51.820 --> 25:53.180
[UNKNOWN]: And got shot at it a lot.
25:53.560 --> 25:56.741
[UNKNOWN]: And by the grace of God, I never got hit, survived.
25:57.341 --> 25:59.642
[UNKNOWN]: Well, on the railroad, we had a,
26:02.054 --> 26:25.112
[UNKNOWN]: a chief or division police chief had never been a real police officer he'd always been a railroad employee who's actually a clerk and somehow got into the railroad police and became a chief so one night on the Saturday night sending more and thing I was I was always on night shifts and heard gunshots just a couple blocks away from where the railroad office was so you know being the nosy person
26:30.133 --> 26:46.057
[UNKNOWN]: And when I got up to this street corner, the street took, went down, I was really steep going down and down at the bottom was a police officer, uniform police officer and a cruiser, and he was being shot at from a guy in a third story window, so the guy had to hide ground on him.
26:46.077 --> 26:55.220
[UNKNOWN]: So I was able to make my way down there, got over to the cruiser and I knew the guy, but he was a rookie, and I said, what's going on?
26:55.420 --> 26:58.541
[UNKNOWN]: And there was a guy that had been shot was laying on the sidewalk against the building.
26:59.362 --> 27:04.969
[UNKNOWN]: He said, well, he said, I'm not sure yet, but I came down the street that that guy was laying on the ground shot.
27:05.910 --> 27:07.912
[UNKNOWN]: And this guy up here is continually trying to kill him.
27:07.933 --> 27:09.655
[UNKNOWN]: He keeps shooting down when I shoot at him.
27:09.695 --> 27:10.315
[UNKNOWN]: He shoots at me.
27:10.335 --> 27:12.658
[UNKNOWN]: I'm like, okay, you got help on the way, right?
27:12.678 --> 27:14.240
[UNKNOWN]: And he's like, oh, no, I don't.
27:15.588 --> 27:18.010
[UNKNOWN]: Like, dude, that's first thing to do, get some help.
27:18.070 --> 27:21.072
[UNKNOWN]: I, you know, call your gang, because that's what they're for.
27:21.993 --> 27:25.135
[UNKNOWN]: And so back up showed up and I ran over and got the wound to God.
27:25.175 --> 27:31.220
[UNKNOWN]: I'd drag you into a recess doorway and we got back out and the shooting continued for a couple hours and finally got to give up.
27:31.460 --> 27:33.442
[UNKNOWN]: Nobody got hit other than the guy who's already hit.
27:33.982 --> 27:38.466
[UNKNOWN]: Turns out, the guy that's shooting had come home and called the guy that had been shot in bed of his wife.
27:39.166 --> 27:42.828
[UNKNOWN]: So as the cast trying to leave, he shoots him in the butt and now he's trying to kill him.
27:43.989 --> 27:52.053
[UNKNOWN]: So I hope the police with the crime scene and all that till everything's cleared up and I go back in, I think I got off at 7.30 in the morning and back then.
27:53.858 --> 27:59.220
[UNKNOWN]: And so I go in and call my chief about six-thirty in the morning, Sunday morning, and say, hey, just letting you know, I was involved in shooting last night.
28:00.041 --> 28:06.623
[UNKNOWN]: Hey, just went off on the phone, well, let me just really be rating me on the phone, he said, you don't go anywhere.
28:07.164 --> 28:07.984
[UNKNOWN]: I'm coming down there.
28:08.684 --> 28:12.926
[UNKNOWN]: Okay, boss, I've got another hour for I go home, cause he hated paying overtime.
28:15.248 --> 28:29.055
[UNKNOWN]: So, he comes in and just starts chewing me out without listening to the facts first and then I tell him what happened and he said, give me your weapon and back then I was carrying a Smith and Weston Model 15, snubbed those two and a half inch barrel gun.
28:29.775 --> 28:39.540
[UNKNOWN]: So, I guess the wheel gun, so I pulled out and popped the shells out and he, oh, you dipped into the weapon and I said, I don't hand it with load of gun to your chief, you know, that's the way it is.
28:40.021 --> 28:42.402
[UNKNOWN]: Well, how do I know how many rounds you fired, I thought.
28:43.093 --> 28:47.039
[UNKNOWN]: Well, I didn't think I said, Chief, do you think that I didn't reload my gun after I fired it?
28:47.539 --> 28:51.425
[UNKNOWN]: Because if bullets aren't in there, a lot of bullets, it's a paperweight, that's not a gun anymore.
28:52.426 --> 28:54.209
[UNKNOWN]: And he's, why do I know how many shots you fired?
28:54.229 --> 28:56.933
[UNKNOWN]: And I said, I got to shell casings here in my pocket, so hand it those two of them.
28:57.878 --> 29:00.700
[UNKNOWN]: You know, he looked at McGun, like, I guess that was going to tell him something.
29:01.740 --> 29:04.602
[UNKNOWN]: Just lack of experience and training on his part.
29:04.782 --> 29:04.963
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
29:06.023 --> 29:07.904
[UNKNOWN]: So, back and forth, back and forth.
29:07.984 --> 29:11.387
[UNKNOWN]: And he said, you know, I know you used to work for the Bluefield Police Department.
29:11.407 --> 29:12.547
[UNKNOWN]: Do you work for the railroad now?
29:12.587 --> 29:13.688
[UNKNOWN]: That's railroad business.
29:14.208 --> 29:16.550
[UNKNOWN]: You don't go back these police officers up.
29:16.810 --> 29:22.554
[UNKNOWN]: Like, well, chief, I'm the only railroad dick on duty in 26 counties.
29:23.154 --> 29:25.255
[UNKNOWN]: Right this minute, 26 counties I cover.
29:28.054 --> 29:39.599
[UNKNOWN]: I don't care, you know, so, finally, it was coming up to seven and three quit time, and I said, listen, if you want me to stay, I'll stay as long as you want me to, but I'm going on overtime here at seven, thirty-one, get out of here.
29:39.619 --> 29:41.920
[UNKNOWN]: You get out of here now, I'll talk to you later, and I said, okay.
29:42.560 --> 29:52.265
[UNKNOWN]: So I'm leaving, and he said, I want you to know, I'm gonna get your job over this, and I turn around and I said, I want you to know, given the same set of circumstances, I will respond the same way next time.
29:52.985 --> 29:56.526
[UNKNOWN]: So you tomorrow, of course, that just saved him off again.
29:58.311 --> 30:02.613
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30:02.913 --> 30:09.795
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30:40.892 --> 30:45.884
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30:46.537 --> 30:51.901
[UNKNOWN]: The city ended up giving me a official proclamation of citation for coming to the aid of a police officer.
30:53.121 --> 30:58.885
[UNKNOWN]: Luckily, the hierarchy of the railroad police had been real cops before, and they said, don't worry, Murph, you know, we'll take your chief.
30:59.085 --> 31:01.227
[UNKNOWN]: You did nothing wrong, we expect you to respond like that.
31:02.368 --> 31:03.508
[UNKNOWN]: And they never did anything about it.
31:04.329 --> 31:09.212
[UNKNOWN]: Well, there was another new railroad detective to come on named Pete Ramey, Big Man.
31:09.712 --> 31:11.353
[UNKNOWN]: Big is Clint Bruce.
31:12.334 --> 31:17.037
[UNKNOWN]: Black guy, but the nicest, I mean just one of my dearest friends now, loving like a brother.
31:18.137 --> 31:28.103
[UNKNOWN]: He had been a Virginia State troop that worked on a DEA task force out of running Virginia, and he would tell me the story is about all these narcotics cases he worked, and I thought that is the coolest thing in the world.
31:28.783 --> 31:31.464
[UNKNOWN]: He said, you want to think about going to DEA and go federal, and I said, what's DEA?
31:33.372 --> 31:36.294
[UNKNOWN]: Because I knew what the FBI was, the ATF marshals.
31:36.475 --> 31:38.977
[UNKNOWN]: I didn't really know the Department of Energy and Agriculture.
31:38.997 --> 31:39.377
[UNKNOWN]: I don't know.
31:40.658 --> 31:43.080
[UNKNOWN]: And so he told me all about that.
31:43.280 --> 31:45.102
[UNKNOWN]: And I had never finished my college degree.
31:45.162 --> 31:47.224
[UNKNOWN]: So I talked to my wife about it.
31:48.284 --> 31:48.925
[UNKNOWN]: Got my degree.
31:49.485 --> 31:52.488
[UNKNOWN]: And 19 finished, took me 11 years to get four year degree.
31:53.249 --> 31:54.269
[UNKNOWN]: Finally got it in 1985.
31:54.430 --> 31:56.772
[UNKNOWN]: I applied for DEA, took two years to get hired.
32:00.320 --> 32:08.783
[UNKNOWN]: had actually transfer back to Norfolk, Virginia, to get away from the chief because the bosses weren't doing anything and he was still as inept as he ever was.
32:09.203 --> 32:17.626
[UNKNOWN]: He almost got me killed one night, making a scodo one man's surveillance on railroad shops that we knew were continually being broken into.
32:18.586 --> 32:19.606
[UNKNOWN]: I was shot at that night.
32:19.626 --> 32:21.827
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, what does a railroad cop do?
32:23.233 --> 32:29.298
[UNKNOWN]: They, what we did, it's not like Amtrak cops, or real, they're like regular cops, uniform cops.
32:30.800 --> 32:40.868
[UNKNOWN]: We investigated any crimes committed against the railroad, except capital crimes, and then the state police or your state law enforcement agency would take the lead on something like that.
32:40.928 --> 32:43.811
[UNKNOWN]: So if there's a murder on railroad property, they would be in charge of the site.
32:44.471 --> 32:48.795
[UNKNOWN]: But, you know, anything from thefts to break ends
32:50.796 --> 32:53.677
[UNKNOWN]: Um, sometimes you're in part- Vandalism or anything.
32:53.777 --> 32:54.057
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
32:54.197 --> 32:54.537
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
32:54.557 --> 33:00.499
[UNKNOWN]: It, uh, my brothers in Rero Police, please don't take us the wrong way.
33:00.699 --> 33:04.300
[UNKNOWN]: It was a glorified security job as what I was doing.
33:04.480 --> 33:04.680
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
33:05.340 --> 33:06.520
[UNKNOWN]: And I, it's not what I wanted to do.
33:06.820 --> 33:07.000
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
33:07.581 --> 33:10.141
[UNKNOWN]: So based on what Peter told me, I applied for DEA.
33:10.161 --> 33:13.622
[UNKNOWN]: I finally got 187 and off to the raises.
33:14.102 --> 33:14.462
[UNKNOWN]: Man.
33:14.662 --> 33:14.842
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
33:14.882 --> 33:16.463
[UNKNOWN]: Was that the best thing that ever happened to you?
33:17.503 --> 33:33.710
[UNKNOWN]: So, going through the academy and kind of going from regular law enforcement railroad cop to now the federal side, did you immediately notice just a huge shift in training and budget and caliber of guy and all that?
33:36.140 --> 33:41.903
[UNKNOWN]: Well, maybe not in the caliber of people because even the small town cops, they just want to help people.
33:41.943 --> 33:42.803
[UNKNOWN]: That's what they want to do.
33:43.223 --> 33:45.504
[UNKNOWN]: They might not have the four-year degree.
33:46.105 --> 33:56.730
[UNKNOWN]: They might not have the opportunity to go to the specialized training classes and continue all in service type training, but they're just as dedicated as anybody else.
33:57.430 --> 34:00.611
[UNKNOWN]: But I did see things that shot me.
34:01.452 --> 34:03.353
[UNKNOWN]: So, and I'll give you an example.
34:04.503 --> 34:07.184
[UNKNOWN]: When I joined the EA, I had been a cop now for 12 years.
34:08.165 --> 34:12.466
[UNKNOWN]: The most powder cocaine I'd ever seen at one time was two ounces, which is a baggy about like this.
34:13.847 --> 34:19.409
[UNKNOWN]: I get to Miami in 1987, still the Wild West down there, talk about a fish out of water.
34:20.150 --> 34:24.832
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, here's a small town country boy and living in Fort Lauderdale, working in drug cases in Miami.
34:25.592 --> 34:32.395
[UNKNOWN]: During the heyday, I mean, literally dope is washing up on the beaches and falling out of the skies from air drops.
34:33.978 --> 34:38.802
[UNKNOWN]: So they signed you to a senior partner, my senior partner was Jean Francoir.
34:39.463 --> 34:53.094
[UNKNOWN]: And so Gino had been working on a case for a couple years already, and the focus of his investigation was to prove that Cuba, the Castro brothers were allowed Cuba to be used as a transshipment point for cocaine coming from Colombia into the South Florida.
34:55.135 --> 35:01.481
[UNKNOWN]: So, and I'm smart enough in law enforcement that when you're the new guy, you keep your mouth shut, you learn.
35:02.621 --> 35:06.562
[UNKNOWN]: So he says, come on, we're going to go meet these two informants I got, we call him Cheetah Chong.
35:07.462 --> 35:17.764
[UNKNOWN]: OK, so I'm thinking we're going to go down the intercontinental hotel down Miami Bay, and he's probably got some sports car, like crockin' tubs had in Miami, viseking, because I watched Miami vise.
35:18.884 --> 35:22.705
[UNKNOWN]: And we go out and get this old beat up, Buick, or olds will be old.
35:23.385 --> 35:24.846
[UNKNOWN]: He had so many dirty clothes in there.
35:24.866 --> 35:28.006
[UNKNOWN]: He had to pull the clothes out of the front seat throwing it back seat, so I could get into the car.
35:28.026 --> 35:30.507
[UNKNOWN]: And we go to Denny's on 36th street over next to Miami
35:32.753 --> 35:34.714
[UNKNOWN]: I'm gonna think, wow, this isn't either like TV.
35:35.634 --> 35:41.876
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so we go and sit down and eventually these two old guys come over and they walk up to our table and I just kind of looked up and I said, can I help you?
35:42.756 --> 35:44.037
[UNKNOWN]: And, you know, that's our guys.
35:45.117 --> 35:49.018
[UNKNOWN]: And I thought, man, now I see what I call them, Cheech and Cheong, because it was this two old guys.
35:49.038 --> 35:54.460
[UNKNOWN]: They were probably in their 60s or 70s, which let me just say right now, that's not old at my age today.
35:54.520 --> 35:55.941
[UNKNOWN]: But back then, it's like really old.
35:57.722 --> 36:03.446
[UNKNOWN]: And they sit down and start talking about this organization that's willing to bring in 500 kilos of cocaine.
36:04.107 --> 36:08.530
[UNKNOWN]: And so I just sit there and gene talk to him and I just listen, you keep your poker face on.
36:09.691 --> 36:14.255
[UNKNOWN]: And so after an hour, so we've head back to the office and Gene says, I said, Murph, what do you think?
36:14.915 --> 36:15.836
[UNKNOWN]: And I started laughing.
36:15.876 --> 36:17.677
[UNKNOWN]: I said, man, those guys are full of crap, aren't you?
36:17.697 --> 36:17.958
[UNKNOWN]: Gene?
36:18.638 --> 36:20.019
[UNKNOWN]: Why are you saying that?
36:20.099 --> 36:23.202
[UNKNOWN]: I said, they're talking about 500 kilos of cocaine.
36:23.222 --> 36:25.604
[UNKNOWN]: There's not that much cocaine in the world at one time, is there?
36:26.722 --> 36:29.023
[UNKNOWN]: He looks like he's like, where are you from?
36:30.064 --> 36:32.045
[UNKNOWN]: From two ounces to 1,200 pounds.
36:32.485 --> 36:36.467
[UNKNOWN]: Well, so what happened is in February or March of 88.
36:37.228 --> 36:39.909
[UNKNOWN]: He comes to me and says, listen, we're going to send D.A.
36:39.929 --> 36:40.810
[UNKNOWN]: had an undercover boat.
36:40.830 --> 36:46.493
[UNKNOWN]: We had a 53-foot Hatter Sport Fisherman that had been a million-dollar yacht that's been seized from these drug dealers.
36:47.053 --> 36:49.534
[UNKNOWN]: It's wired with audio and video throughout the boat all hidden.
36:51.235 --> 36:56.936
[UNKNOWN]: He said, we've got two DEA boat captains, agents that are certified everything, so they're going to take the boat down.
36:57.796 --> 37:02.437
[UNKNOWN]: I need another agent to go, like, it's a deckhand, and I'll give you for a shot at it, so do you want to go?
37:02.457 --> 37:04.237
[UNKNOWN]: And I'm like, oh, yeah.
37:04.938 --> 37:15.500
[UNKNOWN]: So he said, well, you know, these guys are going to take you out and have to show you what you do on a boat, what a deckhand would do, and all you do is you're always cleaning something or you're always fixing the ropes, so that they look nice and neat.
37:15.580 --> 37:16.800
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, you're just, you're the go for it.
37:18.123 --> 37:27.308
[UNKNOWN]: So I show up in my old tennis shoes and probably converse tennis shoes back then and they're like, no, no, no, you got to go get some boat shoes and you got to dirty them up like they've been used.
37:28.088 --> 37:29.989
[UNKNOWN]: I'm a bit literate fish out of water here.
37:30.589 --> 37:32.530
[UNKNOWN]: So finally we take off.
37:33.631 --> 37:37.353
[UNKNOWN]: We're going to the place called the Turks and Cacos Islands, which I've never even heard of.
37:38.807 --> 37:42.348
[UNKNOWN]: We go out, and this yacht has two end board engines.
37:42.548 --> 37:44.889
[UNKNOWN]: We're going to get about an hour outside of Fort Lauderdale.
37:44.909 --> 37:50.191
[UNKNOWN]: We hit a shallow reef, and it bends the props on one of the motors there.
37:51.792 --> 37:53.612
[UNKNOWN]: So we get on the HF radio.
37:53.632 --> 37:59.534
[UNKNOWN]: We used to have, this isn't class five, this is been too long ago.
38:00.515 --> 38:00.775
[UNKNOWN]: There was,
38:02.178 --> 38:12.730
[UNKNOWN]: thing we called Atlas that worked off at HF radios, and that was our lifeline to whether it was us or our pilots or whoever that was our lifeline back to DEA proper.
38:13.891 --> 38:21.480
[UNKNOWN]: So they called Atlas and said, hey, call DEA, tell me this, this is what happened, and so eventually the radio back, and they say, listen, they said, limp into treasure key.
38:22.567 --> 38:24.809
[UNKNOWN]: Tomorrow, we want you guys to limp into Nassau.
38:25.589 --> 38:27.190
[UNKNOWN]: They've already reached out to the US Navy.
38:27.350 --> 38:32.034
[UNKNOWN]: We're going to have a DEA plane flying new prop to you from Miami to Nassau.
38:32.094 --> 38:35.336
[UNKNOWN]: The DEA, off in Nassau, will get the prop.
38:35.656 --> 38:36.777
[UNKNOWN]: Bring it to you, get to Marina.
38:37.357 --> 38:39.179
[UNKNOWN]: There's a Navy sub-temperature close by.
38:39.259 --> 38:40.339
[UNKNOWN]: They're heading your way now.
38:40.359 --> 38:41.320
[UNKNOWN]: They're heading towards Nassau.
38:41.340 --> 38:44.102
[UNKNOWN]: They'll send two drivers over and they'll replace the prop for you.
38:45.083 --> 38:47.344
[UNKNOWN]: And I'm thinking, we can call the US Navy.
38:47.364 --> 38:48.065
[UNKNOWN]: They'll do that.
38:49.252 --> 38:56.614
[UNKNOWN]: So, we do the next day, we'd lip in the nass all the divers come up and so then the day at third day, we're heading out to Turks and Cacos.
38:58.194 --> 39:01.155
[UNKNOWN]: So we go down there, Texas two more days to get there.
39:02.595 --> 39:13.478
[UNKNOWN]: No, most big deals don't go the first time and so, by the end, tempers might have flared a little bit on the boat because I'm, you know, I've been a cop for 12 years and these two guys are.
39:14.238 --> 39:33.817
[UNKNOWN]: never been real cops or feds and I wasn't real big on feds myself and so we we had a lot of differences of opinion so when we got to the Providenzi house I said put this odiac in the water I'm I'm off I'm out here and like where you think you're gonna go and I said she knows got a hotel room over I'm gonna go stay also go sleep on the floor of his hotel room and I did
39:35.332 --> 39:39.976
[UNKNOWN]: So then a couple of weeks goes by, and the deal finally goes, this twin-inch of plane flies in.
39:40.976 --> 39:42.518
[UNKNOWN]: They tell me it flies in from Cuba.
39:43.398 --> 39:44.459
[UNKNOWN]: I see it laying in a provo.
39:44.479 --> 39:45.500
[UNKNOWN]: It comes the end of the runway.
39:45.580 --> 39:47.622
[UNKNOWN]: It's turned around to taxi back up.
39:47.662 --> 39:50.864
[UNKNOWN]: The back door flies open, and these green duffelbacks come flying out.
39:51.585 --> 39:54.447
[UNKNOWN]: Then they taxi up, refuel, and they take off, and go back to Cuba.
39:57.909 --> 39:58.390
[UNKNOWN]: I'm thinking.
39:59.938 --> 40:02.621
[UNKNOWN]: What was in this bag, was 400 kilos.
40:03.582 --> 40:05.944
[UNKNOWN]: I went for two ounces to 880 pounds of cocaine.
40:06.324 --> 40:09.728
[UNKNOWN]: And Mike, I was addicted to cocaine at that point, just in a different way.
40:11.089 --> 40:13.852
[UNKNOWN]: When you had it that, don't end it that different way out.
40:14.432 --> 40:20.258
[UNKNOWN]: But then, so when I saw Gina, I said, how do you know, how do we know this plane came from Cuba?
40:20.938 --> 40:24.562
[UNKNOWN]: He said, because we had an Air Force B3A wax up radar plane tracking it.
40:25.616 --> 40:28.118
[UNKNOWN]: And I think, oh my gosh, we called the Navy and they responded.
40:28.138 --> 40:29.520
[UNKNOWN]: We called the Air Force and they responded.
40:30.000 --> 40:31.762
[UNKNOWN]: This has got to be the coolest thing in the world.
40:32.443 --> 40:34.424
[UNKNOWN]: And man, I was, I was serious, I was hooked.
40:34.545 --> 40:39.209
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, it was job wise, the most exciting thing I'd ever participated in.
40:39.349 --> 40:40.630
[UNKNOWN]: And everyone was a single shot fire.
40:40.710 --> 40:41.531
[UNKNOWN]: It was just exciting.
40:41.611 --> 40:42.772
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I can imagine.
40:42.792 --> 40:46.816
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, that's jumping right up to varsity squad, no doubt.
40:48.747 --> 40:57.998
[UNKNOWN]: In that undercover role, that particular one was it just kind of observing or did you actually do part of the deal or like what was your role in that?
40:58.119 --> 41:04.546
[UNKNOWN]: Just pretended to be something I wasn't a deck end and then being there to pick up all those duffel bags and
41:06.256 --> 41:16.648
[UNKNOWN]: You know, they don't all they know is that we're going to use our boat because we represented that our boat had hidden compartments that could handle up to 500 kilos and we'd get it back into South Florida.
41:16.668 --> 41:19.091
[UNKNOWN]: So we're actually just transportation brokers.
41:20.150 --> 41:29.956
[UNKNOWN]: Well, what really happened is we had a DEA plane fly down a twin engine and we loaded all the dope on the plane and you have to maintain the chain custody, so the plane was full.
41:30.637 --> 41:36.420
[UNKNOWN]: So I had a car on top of these duffel bags and take that hour and a half to our flight back up to Miami, up to Opelaka.
41:36.720 --> 41:37.061
[UNKNOWN]: Oh, wow.
41:37.601 --> 41:42.964
[UNKNOWN]: So the buyer in this case was all DEA, it was a fake transaction.
41:43.285 --> 41:46.407
[UNKNOWN]: No, so we're doing all the behest of this criminal organization.
41:47.348 --> 41:50.410
[UNKNOWN]: So, again, we're a cheetah child and we're transportation brokers.
41:50.430 --> 41:52.110
[UNKNOWN]: They actually have an import export business.
41:53.011 --> 41:55.952
[UNKNOWN]: And so the goal is for us to now deliver the cocaine to them.
41:55.992 --> 41:57.213
[UNKNOWN]: We call it a controlled delivery.
41:57.813 --> 42:00.695
[UNKNOWN]: And when it's international, like they have called an international control delivery.
42:02.376 --> 42:07.558
[UNKNOWN]: So what you try to do is put them off to give you more time.
42:07.578 --> 42:13.241
[UNKNOWN]: Because it would take about, say, four or five days to get back up to South Florida.
42:15.222 --> 42:22.865
[UNKNOWN]: their cover story is that they're just out fishing so it's probably going to take longer than that because you've got to present the appearance that you're just fishing and I have a good time.
42:24.426 --> 42:32.710
[UNKNOWN]: But what it really does is it gives the agents more time to see who's coordinating things to, we weren't running a wiretaps back then.
42:34.004 --> 42:49.940
[UNKNOWN]: teaching Shon's office was wired up with the video on audio so you call the principles in and discuss how you're going to take delivery when you go make payment you know how are we going to do this or we're going to give you the whole load which are you going to give us all the money because you're not going to give us all the money we're not going to give you the whole load and just you know just logistical things
42:52.022 --> 42:57.045
[UNKNOWN]: We were out doing surveillance, there's this lady, this Cuban lady that was part of the criminal organization.
42:57.866 --> 43:02.049
[UNKNOWN]: And we were doing surveillance on her and we had probably eight guys out in different cars.
43:02.769 --> 43:06.712
[UNKNOWN]: And when you got that many people, you can run a good surveillance not be detected.
43:07.592 --> 43:08.613
[UNKNOWN]: We're under cover agent.
43:09.752 --> 43:22.437
[UNKNOWN]: Well, he wasn't on the cover in this case, but there was an agent named Pete, and Pete was a fantastic undercover agent, but he was a horrible surveillance guy, and he would lock bumpers with our target.
43:22.457 --> 43:27.399
[UNKNOWN]: That's just way too, I mean, he was right following her right on, right on the back of the car.
43:27.439 --> 43:29.580
[UNKNOWN]: We kept telling him, Pete, back off, we got a cover, we got a cover,
43:31.293 --> 43:38.599
[UNKNOWN]: And so if she goes in this business and so we put surveillance on both ends of the street and that way you can just sit still and let her go and somebody will pick her up.
43:39.320 --> 43:40.621
[UNKNOWN]: We'll Pete just can stand it.
43:40.661 --> 43:43.323
[UNKNOWN]: So he drives down the street about time she comes walking out the door.
43:44.003 --> 43:45.645
[UNKNOWN]: So she comes out in the middle of street and stops him.
43:46.245 --> 43:46.946
[UNKNOWN]: Just stands there.
43:47.846 --> 43:52.650
[UNKNOWN]: She finally walks up this car and he said, I've seen you way too many times today.
43:52.690 --> 43:53.531
[UNKNOWN]: Why are you following me?
43:53.571 --> 43:54.452
[UNKNOWN]: Who are you cops?
43:55.618 --> 44:04.141
[UNKNOWN]: and Pete had the gift of gab and he said, baby, I saw you early and you just a hottest thing I was just hoping I'd get to the opportunity to beat you.
44:04.541 --> 44:06.541
[UNKNOWN]: I think, you know, just goes on with this skill.
44:07.222 --> 44:08.542
[UNKNOWN]: It believes not she fell for it.
44:09.282 --> 44:09.903
[UNKNOWN]: No way.
44:10.063 --> 44:11.443
[UNKNOWN]: That's unbelievable.
44:11.923 --> 44:17.465
[UNKNOWN]: So, when she eventually got arrested, you know, Pete came in and she said, you know, I thought there was something about you, but so,
44:18.308 --> 44:26.658
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, I don't know how just being that stalker like would make a woman say, yeah, I'll give you my number and entertain that, but maybe it's a different time back.
44:26.738 --> 44:27.399
[UNKNOWN]: Different times.
44:27.439 --> 44:27.859
[UNKNOWN]: That's right.
44:28.800 --> 44:31.243
[UNKNOWN]: Go back to that first undercover gig.
44:31.323 --> 44:33.326
[UNKNOWN]: I guess I'm still a little confused on the.
44:34.667 --> 44:40.152
[UNKNOWN]: So, you're kind of letting it play out and then you arrest the buyer or... What?
44:40.833 --> 44:42.655
[UNKNOWN]: So, we now have control of the dope.
44:42.675 --> 44:45.197
[UNKNOWN]: So, we're not going to let that dope go away.
44:45.357 --> 44:49.321
[UNKNOWN]: It's already in a secure secret warehouse somewhere in South Florida.
44:51.423 --> 44:54.125
[UNKNOWN]: But what we'd like to get now is the money.
44:54.961 --> 45:06.424
[UNKNOWN]: So, you know, 400 kilos of Coke and your transportation fees was probably back then we were probably charging $3,500 a kilo, so $3,500 times 400, that's a buttload of money.
45:07.304 --> 45:12.366
[UNKNOWN]: And typically they will not give you all the money at first, they'll give you bits and pieces.
45:13.286 --> 45:21.949
[UNKNOWN]: You can, we, I mean, we want as much money as we can get because we're not going to let them have any, we're not even going to let them have one kilo, we're not going to leave them
45:24.647 --> 45:27.248
[UNKNOWN]: So you're trying to get as much money out of Michigan.
45:27.588 --> 45:39.550
[UNKNOWN]: And finally, when the delivery time is set up, you might do it in a public setting, like maybe the parking lot of international mall there and over in the cover.
45:39.891 --> 45:43.291
[UNKNOWN]: The cover's, what's the name of that part of Miami?
45:44.292 --> 45:45.572
[UNKNOWN]: I was just down there a couple weeks ago.
45:46.432 --> 45:47.072
[UNKNOWN]: I can't remember now.
45:47.852 --> 45:50.193
[UNKNOWN]: But, and then you just arrest everybody.
45:50.814 --> 45:54.415
[UNKNOWN]: But you also now know where everybody lives, you know, whatever by drives.
45:55.315 --> 46:04.118
[UNKNOWN]: You actually have people go out to take pictures so that you know if you're going to search warrants, you're hitting the right house, things like mistakes that you read about in the newspaper nowadays.
46:04.478 --> 46:05.538
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
46:05.578 --> 46:12.380
[UNKNOWN]: So the longer you kind of spread it out, the more intel you can gather on, who all the buyers are and where it's going afterwards and all that.
46:12.400 --> 46:15.581
[UNKNOWN]: So you're kind of intentionally delaying it as long as you can.
46:16.099 --> 46:16.499
[UNKNOWN]: you are.
46:16.719 --> 46:21.081
[UNKNOWN]: And at the same time, you know, you have, they've given you phone numbers so you can reach out to them.
46:21.101 --> 46:23.401
[UNKNOWN]: So you're just researching as phone numbers.
46:23.421 --> 46:29.724
[UNKNOWN]: You're hitting the telephone company with subpoenas and trying to identify other numbers that are associated with that criminal organization.
46:29.764 --> 46:33.585
[UNKNOWN]: And then you can take those numbers and you start looking for commonalities.
46:34.145 --> 46:35.325
[UNKNOWN]: Well, this number calls this one.
46:36.026 --> 46:37.246
[UNKNOWN]: But they both call this number.
46:37.346 --> 46:42.208
[UNKNOWN]: And you're trying to work your way up the ladder to see who's in control of this organization ultimately.
46:42.388 --> 46:42.568
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
46:43.709 --> 46:45.610
[UNKNOWN]: You spend about four years in Miami, correct?
46:47.191 --> 46:56.858
[UNKNOWN]: Any other stories from that window of time that either super close calls or really big cases are kind of interesting operations that are worth sharing?
46:59.540 --> 47:03.283
[UNKNOWN]: Lots of operations, but the one that sticks out is somewhere in the 89.
47:05.444 --> 47:10.548
[UNKNOWN]: Pete, then the coverage, it comes down on a Friday morning, says, hey, guys, we're going to do a 17 kilo by bus today.
47:12.239 --> 47:15.100
[UNKNOWN]: And our group focused on the Caribbean.
47:16.460 --> 47:20.782
[UNKNOWN]: 17 kilos in 1989 is how Florida was like an ounce.
47:21.142 --> 47:22.923
[UNKNOWN]: It's like an ounce of methadale today.
47:23.863 --> 47:26.624
[UNKNOWN]: It was honestly, it was a reason the Galli office for the day.
47:26.664 --> 47:31.465
[UNKNOWN]: A day on the streets is like a day on the range has better been in the office, right?
47:32.826 --> 47:33.126
[UNKNOWN]: So,
47:35.017 --> 47:36.438
[UNKNOWN]: Pete's going to be in the cover.
47:36.778 --> 47:39.681
[UNKNOWN]: He's got this long-term informant that he's used.
47:39.721 --> 47:40.682
[UNKNOWN]: His name was Rafa.
47:40.802 --> 47:42.043
[UNKNOWN]: His nickname was Rafa.
47:42.944 --> 47:44.104
[UNKNOWN]: Rafa has been very successful.
47:45.038 --> 47:49.821
[UNKNOWN]: And we're in Hailea, so they're going to be meeting with the bad guys inside a office house.
47:50.861 --> 47:59.466
[UNKNOWN]: Inside the house is me, my partner Kevin Stevens and a third agent Lynn Piper, we're the inside of Resteem, more of a cover team than in Resteem, I guess.
47:59.486 --> 48:05.789
[UNKNOWN]: And we've got our two surveillance teams dispersed out through the neighborhood so they can respond to him when we call him.
48:09.800 --> 48:13.924
[UNKNOWN]: Two bad guys show up, they bring in two packages that they represent to be two kilos of Coke.
48:14.864 --> 48:20.950
[UNKNOWN]: Pete takes the first one, he starts doing what he's represent to be a field test to check and see if his legit dope.
48:21.951 --> 48:26.975
[UNKNOWN]: Next thing, we're hiding into back master bedroom with door closed, next thing we hear is part Pete begging for his life.
48:27.255 --> 48:29.677
[UNKNOWN]: Don't shoot us, don't kill us, the money isn't drunk, just don't shoot us.
48:31.559 --> 48:35.082
[UNKNOWN]: So he's letting us know that things have gone really bad, but he's also letting us know they have guns.
48:37.002 --> 48:48.267
[UNKNOWN]: I peek out the doorway to see what I can see and very quietly and, you know, I see that Peyton rougher down on the floor and the two bad guys have handguns, one's got a 45, one's got a 357 row of all over.
48:49.607 --> 48:57.110
[UNKNOWN]: I used the door shut, getting the claws it, got the radio calling for help, you know, because this is going to really go bad real quick.
48:58.611 --> 49:03.893
[UNKNOWN]: Kevin, my partner, he decided to walk over and open the door and see what was going on
49:06.159 --> 49:11.661
[UNKNOWN]: back on number one has his hand on the door on that door knob on the other side so they're the width of a door apart from each other.
49:13.782 --> 49:20.304
[UNKNOWN]: You know, they scared each other death when they saw each other, but we're trained, you know, we identify ourselves.
49:21.681 --> 49:23.421
[UNKNOWN]: And honestly, we didn't think this deal was going to go.
49:25.362 --> 49:27.602
[UNKNOWN]: When deals don't go, we call them hummers.
49:27.722 --> 49:28.682
[UNKNOWN]: Things are humming along.
49:29.363 --> 49:30.843
[UNKNOWN]: So we just thought this could be a never-hummer.
49:31.243 --> 49:33.723
[UNKNOWN]: And quite honestly, we were going to call a federal Friday.
49:33.763 --> 49:37.424
[UNKNOWN]: And we were all going to head up to Fort Lauderdale and start the weekend.
49:40.885 --> 49:42.945
[UNKNOWN]: Kevin yells out police to identify as himself.
49:43.465 --> 49:44.886
[UNKNOWN]: And back guys, they don't yell out.
49:45.406 --> 49:46.266
[UNKNOWN]: They just start shooting.
49:46.946 --> 49:48.847
[UNKNOWN]: So that guy's got a coat in 1911, 45 caliber pistol.
49:51.507 --> 49:54.750
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, they're less than three feet from each other, shooting each other.
49:55.211 --> 49:59.114
[UNKNOWN]: Kevin wings him on the side, just broke the scam, but didn't slowing down.
49:59.895 --> 50:05.320
[UNKNOWN]: A part of that hit with two 45 slugs, one below the elbow, one above the elbow, in the same arm.
50:05.660 --> 50:06.181
[UNKNOWN]: Is it right, arm?
50:07.081 --> 50:09.604
[UNKNOWN]: Kevin's a former Marine before he became a DE agent.
50:10.284 --> 50:11.926
[UNKNOWN]: He was also a sports knockout.
50:12.646 --> 50:16.009
[UNKNOWN]: He's like the coolest guy just never gets mad, you know.
50:16.830 --> 50:21.559
[UNKNOWN]: So as he's falling backwards, he slams the door shut, falls back on top of me.
50:23.959 --> 50:25.260
[UNKNOWN]: Back at that time, D.E.A.
50:25.900 --> 50:30.302
[UNKNOWN]: had gotten the new coat submachine as 9mm, looks like a Mini-AR-15.
50:31.583 --> 50:32.444
[UNKNOWN]: And I had one.
50:33.364 --> 50:38.287
[UNKNOWN]: So, back on number one, continues to send 45 rounds through the door.
50:39.127 --> 50:42.049
[UNKNOWN]: Lian opens up with his 9, I opened up with the SMG.
50:44.750 --> 50:49.553
[UNKNOWN]: Back on number one runs out of ammo, we don't know by hits in each other, we just killed that door.
50:54.820 --> 50:57.561
[UNKNOWN]: He, number one, drops his gun and runs out of the house.
50:57.981 --> 50:59.202
[UNKNOWN]: Number two is still in the house.
51:00.222 --> 51:07.246
[UNKNOWN]: With the 357 revolver, we didn't know at the time he had full bone HIV AIDS.
51:07.906 --> 51:10.647
[UNKNOWN]: He couldn't run, he'd just more of a hobble.
51:11.447 --> 51:21.732
[UNKNOWN]: As he's trying to escape the house, he turns around five or three rounds back in the house of the 357 and Bethlehemer informant steps up, stands up, and he casts his one right there and he adbs apple.
51:23.120 --> 51:31.082
[UNKNOWN]: So number one runs out, our surveillance forgot to tell us that there was a bad guy, there was a bad guy, number three, the getaway driver, which is a major mistake.
51:31.982 --> 51:44.724
[UNKNOWN]: So number one jumps into the car, number three, and somehow they're able to get away from our surveillance, which nobody to this day has ever been able to explain to me, I have my thoughts about it, but I don't know for sure.
51:46.665 --> 51:47.585
[UNKNOWN]: Back in the bedroom,
51:48.449 --> 51:54.473
[UNKNOWN]: Kevin's land there bleeding, so we pulled Pele's off the bed and trying to staunch the flow of blood and offering words of encouragement.
51:54.493 --> 52:01.017
[UNKNOWN]: Don't worry, man, you're going to get you some help and all this stuff and trying to side if we need to put a turntable on his arm and it actually wasn't bleeding that bad.
52:05.219 --> 52:11.603
[UNKNOWN]: So Kevin looks up at me and two of the three nerves in his right arm have been severed.
52:11.623 --> 52:12.484
[UNKNOWN]: So he's not in a lot of pain.
52:12.524 --> 52:15.025
[UNKNOWN]: He's he's hurting but he's not screaming or anything like that.
52:15.786 --> 52:17.286
[UNKNOWN]: He just looks up to me and he says, go get
52:20.343 --> 52:20.843
[UNKNOWN]: I'll be back.
52:21.984 --> 52:35.856
[UNKNOWN]: So I'd shoulder up that SMG, I'd jerk the door open, all the tactics that I'd learned in all these years of law enforcement, I really screwed up, I let my emotions get to the best of them and cause my partners laying there bleeding.
52:36.837 --> 52:47.465
[UNKNOWN]: So I didn't slice the pie, I didn't quick peek, I didn't do any, I just came out of that door with shoulder up, ready to encounter, which was silly, I mean, just stupid.
52:48.578 --> 52:54.601
[UNKNOWN]: First thing I run into is our former stand-and-air with his hands on his throat trying to hold his life in his body.
52:56.142 --> 52:59.524
[UNKNOWN]: I didn't stop to help him because I wanted to kill the guy that shot my partner.
53:02.505 --> 53:14.392
[UNKNOWN]: And if I know the people that are listening to this might not completely understand it unless you've ever been in a situation where you face life and death repeatedly with the same guys,
53:15.443 --> 53:19.026
[UNKNOWN]: And the bond that's developed there, when I say part of it, that's closer than being a brother.
53:19.206 --> 53:21.448
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that's just, you understand completely.
53:22.749 --> 53:29.234
[UNKNOWN]: So, walked on by him, come out on the street, and here's the guy that shot the informant, hobbling down the street.
53:30.415 --> 53:40.303
[UNKNOWN]: This is a 9mm machine gun that has recoil of about a 22 rifle, and it's probably a 20 foot, maybe a 30 foot shot, easy shot in that world.
53:41.003 --> 53:42.364
[UNKNOWN]: I want to shoot him right in the back of the head.
53:43.331 --> 53:46.334
[UNKNOWN]: And thank the good Lord I looked because he had dropped his gun.
53:46.374 --> 53:47.014
[UNKNOWN]: He's an unarmed.
53:48.495 --> 53:56.542
[UNKNOWN]: And that, the reason I tell this story is because that thin blue line that we talked about law enforcement is a real thing.
53:57.363 --> 54:02.067
[UNKNOWN]: And when you step across that thin blue line, you're no longer one of us, you're one of the criminals.
54:02.727 --> 54:08.472
[UNKNOWN]: And if I had pulled the trigger, that would have been out now murder, even though I had their extinuating circumstances.
54:09.393 --> 54:10.454
[UNKNOWN]: But it's just not right.
54:10.494 --> 54:11.575
[UNKNOWN]: So we took him in the custody.
54:13.265 --> 54:23.812
[UNKNOWN]: We caught the getaway driver that night, the shooter that shot Kevin finally surrendered a few weeks later up in New York City because of all the pressure that law enforcement was trying to put on to capture him.
54:24.633 --> 54:26.654
[UNKNOWN]: Kevin was off for a year recuperating.
54:29.156 --> 54:32.598
[UNKNOWN]: I think he had eight operations, but he came back on the job.
54:33.699 --> 54:42.729
[UNKNOWN]: And back then we used to have mandatory PT tests every six months, pushups, setups, mile run, the older guys called the mile walk.
54:43.910 --> 54:51.297
[UNKNOWN]: She said to finish it, there was no time limit, but Kevin would come in and do more one hand to pushups and I could do two hand to pushups.
54:52.173 --> 55:00.284
[UNKNOWN]: So they told him, and this was a different DEA back then, I don't, I think it might be like that now, but over the past few administrations, it wouldn't have been like this.
55:00.924 --> 55:09.135
[UNKNOWN]: They told him if he could pass the PT test, come home back, and he did, and he finished out his career, and now he tries to play golf in a service load of Florida every day.
55:10.191 --> 55:14.656
[UNKNOWN]: I assume that nerve damage is permanent like his right arm is largely useless.
55:15.297 --> 55:26.528
[UNKNOWN]: It's so the muscle that you and I have here under arm, they detach that draped it into the back of his wrist on the top side, so the muscles that you and I used to bend her hand are the muscles that control his finger movement.
55:26.708 --> 55:33.395
[UNKNOWN]: And it's it's it's it's deformed, yeah, because of the operations, everything, but I mean what a stud man.
55:33.882 --> 55:34.322
[UNKNOWN]: no doubt.
55:35.083 --> 55:39.187
[UNKNOWN]: I am curious your theory on why your surveillance screwed up to get away thing.
55:39.207 --> 55:40.108
[UNKNOWN]: You think they were in on it?
55:41.929 --> 55:43.911
[UNKNOWN]: No, no, nothing like that.
55:44.111 --> 55:52.098
[UNKNOWN]: I just the capabilities of one person who should not have been an reinforcement group.
55:52.999 --> 55:53.820
[UNKNOWN]: I think that person
55:55.795 --> 55:59.896
[UNKNOWN]: either was afraid to act or didn't realize who was coming at him.
56:00.376 --> 56:01.556
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
56:02.836 --> 56:14.919
[UNKNOWN]: Uh, man, what a, what a dice he, uh, I guess as you, as you put it, uh, a hammer that turned into going wildly south did the, uh, informant make it.
56:16.399 --> 56:22.760
[UNKNOWN]: Now, we, we, uh, called in life like for him, he never made it to Jackson Memorial Hospital he died before the land.
56:24.422 --> 56:25.543
[UNKNOWN]: follow-up wise.
56:25.603 --> 56:32.507
[UNKNOWN]: Did you guys were those guys that you encountered that day part of a big organization or were they low-level guys?
56:32.987 --> 56:42.132
[UNKNOWN]: They were just street thugs, and Droughtford had heard about them, and the guy that shot Kevin Rayley went to the firing range.
56:43.036 --> 56:47.559
[UNKNOWN]: which there's another lesson, be ready for your opponents because they're out there practicing to come up against you.
56:47.859 --> 56:54.804
[UNKNOWN]: All right, do you know that was their intention to just rob and bail no more than that?
56:55.184 --> 56:56.565
[UNKNOWN]: Straight out robbery, yeah.
56:56.665 --> 56:57.966
[UNKNOWN]: That was as they thought Pete had.
56:57.986 --> 57:03.089
[UNKNOWN]: So 17 kilos and I think the key back then was probably going for 22, 23,000 a key.
57:03.129 --> 57:05.070
[UNKNOWN]: So they thought we had several hundred thousand dollars.
57:08.052 --> 57:23.024
[UNKNOWN]: So the four years in Miami scenes or sounds like a pretty good proving ground to lead you into the next phase, we're now you actually go outside of the continental U.S. and count on the meat and potatoes of the story.
57:23.585 --> 57:26.267
[UNKNOWN]: How did you go from Miami to Columbia, was it
57:26.947 --> 57:31.390
[UNKNOWN]: And I know some of this gets into Narko's, but I'll ask like, I know nothing.
57:33.932 --> 57:37.114
[UNKNOWN]: How did that transition from Miami to Columbia take place?
57:37.454 --> 57:40.256
[UNKNOWN]: Well, in DEA, they won't send you out of the country.
57:40.276 --> 57:41.097
[UNKNOWN]: You have to volunteer.
57:41.817 --> 57:53.065
[UNKNOWN]: And I've been working with some cases with our DEA, I'll send Baron Kia Columbia, some money laundering cases, and we've been making some decent seizures, a million, multi-million dollar seizures, and my wife is a registered nurse.
57:55.213 --> 58:03.197
[UNKNOWN]: And she was an adventurer, some person, and so she came up to him one day and it used to be there in the first couple of years with DEA when I'd come home in the middle of the night.
58:03.678 --> 58:08.240
[UNKNOWN]: You had been gone for several days and you hadn't come home and she'd wake up and she's like, what'd you do?
58:08.260 --> 58:09.341
[UNKNOWN]: What happened this time?
58:09.381 --> 58:13.463
[UNKNOWN]: It was all exciting and then eventually it gets to be old-hat and she's like, don't wake me up anymore.
58:14.063 --> 58:18.385
[UNKNOWN]: But after about three years, she said, you know what?
58:18.465 --> 58:22.568
[UNKNOWN]: This has been really exciting for both of us because she was working at Plantation General Hospital.
58:23.708 --> 58:44.086
[UNKNOWN]: And she likes the, I think that there she was in a cardiac catheterization unit, but she likes the ICU and the emergency room and things that I just think are gross, I think God that people do that job and she said what, what's the next most exciting thing we could do and I said well the guys in very key or want me to put in for a slot down and we could move to Columbia.
58:45.262 --> 58:51.284
[UNKNOWN]: And I got the look, you know, you know, I don't know if you're married or not, but not anymore.
58:51.584 --> 58:56.245
[UNKNOWN]: Well, the wife when you get the look, you know, and my wife is kind of person to it.
58:56.425 --> 58:59.706
[UNKNOWN]: If you tell her that's what you're going to do, it's probably not going to happen.
59:00.606 --> 59:02.387
[UNKNOWN]: And I knew, just let her think about it.
59:02.727 --> 59:04.727
[UNKNOWN]: So, she's like, are you serious?
59:04.767 --> 59:05.107
[UNKNOWN]: That's it.
59:05.127 --> 59:06.188
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, whatever.
59:07.288 --> 59:08.248
[UNKNOWN]: So, and dropped it.
59:09.389 --> 59:11.869
[UNKNOWN]: So a few weeks goes by and she comes back to him and she said,
59:15.380 --> 59:16.140
[UNKNOWN]: You weren't exciting.
59:16.180 --> 59:18.522
[UNKNOWN]: I think that'd be more exciting than what we're doing here, Miami.
59:19.462 --> 59:20.162
[UNKNOWN]: She thinks about it.
59:20.182 --> 59:21.363
[UNKNOWN]: She thought about it for a couple of minutes.
59:21.403 --> 59:23.724
[UNKNOWN]: She said, if we're going to do it, let's do it while we're young.
59:24.765 --> 59:25.625
[UNKNOWN]: So I put in for it.
59:26.185 --> 59:27.826
[UNKNOWN]: We actually got selected for Baron Kea.
59:30.107 --> 59:31.268
[UNKNOWN]: Got all excited about that.
59:31.908 --> 59:36.830
[UNKNOWN]: And my transfer was rescinded because they needed somebody that was a Spanish speaker immediately.
59:37.431 --> 59:39.132
[UNKNOWN]: And I was going to have to go to language school for six months.
59:40.532 --> 59:44.715
[UNKNOWN]: So a guy in headquarters that asked to this day, I don't know.
59:44.835 --> 59:45.556
[UNKNOWN]: I never met him.
59:45.656 --> 59:47.657
[UNKNOWN]: I didn't know who he was and I don't remember his name.
59:47.697 --> 59:52.240
[UNKNOWN]: I wish I did to say thank you, but he called me and he said, you know, you just got screwed, right?
59:52.420 --> 59:54.482
[UNKNOWN]: I said, yeah, that kind of figured it out.
59:55.523 --> 59:59.866
[UNKNOWN]: He said, we've got three opening positions we're getting ready to advertise in Bogota.
01:00:00.086 --> 01:00:00.766
[UNKNOWN]: You want one of those?
01:00:00.806 --> 01:00:01.767
[UNKNOWN]: I'll make sure you get it.
01:00:02.267 --> 01:00:05.790
[UNKNOWN]: So I called the wife and said, you good going to Bogota and I said, a barricade here.
01:00:06.810 --> 01:00:08.011
[UNKNOWN]: Okay, so we did.
01:00:08.051 --> 01:00:08.732
[UNKNOWN]: I got selected.
01:00:09.513 --> 01:00:11.414
[UNKNOWN]: We went to language school for six months.
01:00:13.136 --> 01:00:14.858
[UNKNOWN]: You can imagine with my accent.
01:00:15.318 --> 01:00:16.199
[UNKNOWN]: Me speaking Spanish.
01:00:16.219 --> 01:00:17.580
[UNKNOWN]: It comes out as Ola y'all.
01:00:21.790 --> 01:00:26.031
[UNKNOWN]: Um, that's what happened within, you know, after language school, we just had built our new house.
01:00:26.851 --> 01:00:30.492
[UNKNOWN]: We lived in it maybe two months when I went to language school, we go there for six months.
01:00:30.512 --> 01:00:34.933
[UNKNOWN]: We come back and they go to our new house for a month and then we go to South American and rent it for three years.
01:00:35.373 --> 01:00:35.613
[UNKNOWN]: Wow.
01:00:36.514 --> 01:00:41.515
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, hindsight's 2020, but I'm curious, well, I mean, maybe not.
01:00:42.335 --> 01:00:47.776
[UNKNOWN]: Does the DA still send spouses with their agents for overseas tours?
01:00:49.430 --> 01:00:51.371
[UNKNOWN]: You can even bring your family in certain places.
01:00:52.131 --> 01:00:58.833
[UNKNOWN]: Owning a home is one of the best things until something breaks, and it always breaks at the worst possible time.
01:00:59.093 --> 01:01:07.796
[UNKNOWN]: I'd a water heater go out on me and I'm scrambling to find someone reliable, calling around, getting quotes, hoping whoever shows up actually knows what they're doing.
01:01:08.036 --> 01:01:12.377
[UNKNOWN]: That whole process is a nightmare, and those bills hit fast and hard.
01:01:12.617 --> 01:01:23.903
[UNKNOWN]: Most people don't realize that regular homeowners insurance typically doesn't cover the day-to-day stuff, plumbing failures, HVAC breakdowns, electrical issues, you're often on your own for those.
01:01:24.184 --> 01:01:26.045
[UNKNOWN]: That's where home serve comes in.
01:01:26.305 --> 01:01:32.908
[UNKNOWN]: They offer home repair plans covering various home systems, so you can choose what makes sense for your needs and budget.
01:01:33.129 --> 01:01:34.329
[UNKNOWN]: For as little as 499 a month,
01:01:35.750 --> 01:01:41.314
[UNKNOWN]: When something on your plan breaks, you just call their 24-7 hotline to start the repair process.
01:01:41.574 --> 01:01:57.164
[UNKNOWN]: They connect you with local experienced professional contractors, no panic searching, no guessing, nearly 4.5 million customers, a 4.8 out of 5 post repair rating, and an A plus better business bureau rating.
01:01:57.344 --> 01:01:59.146
[UNKNOWN]: They've been doing this for over 20 years.
01:01:59.486 --> 01:02:02.368
[UNKNOWN]: If I had needed this, home serve is what I'd use.
01:02:02.688 --> 01:02:05.669
[UNKNOWN]: and roll today and get ahead of it before something goes wrong.
01:02:05.929 --> 01:02:15.013
[UNKNOWN]: Join the millions of customers who trust HomeServe for 50% less your first year, go to homeserve.com slash mic drop.
01:02:15.253 --> 01:02:23.636
[UNKNOWN]: That's homeserve.com slash mic drop for 50% less savings compared to renewal price, void in Florida.
01:02:25.430 --> 01:02:29.333
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, I guess I understand certain places, but to me, that seems kind of crazy.
01:02:31.796 --> 01:02:36.220
[UNKNOWN]: For us, at that time, you could bring a spouse, but you could not bring children.
01:02:36.820 --> 01:02:38.862
[UNKNOWN]: But even the spouse seems pretty dicey.
01:02:40.441 --> 01:02:44.083
[UNKNOWN]: It is, but you're not allowed, they're not allowed to work outside the embassy.
01:02:44.103 --> 01:02:46.545
[UNKNOWN]: So they'll try and find jobs in the embassy.
01:02:47.145 --> 01:02:49.987
[UNKNOWN]: Not like forked in the APO, they're at the embassy, the mail room.
01:02:50.207 --> 01:02:51.728
[UNKNOWN]: They live outside the embassy, right?
01:02:51.989 --> 01:02:52.949
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah.
01:02:53.550 --> 01:02:59.934
[UNKNOWN]: Okay, they have armored vans that pick them up with, you know, vanloads of security escort in everywhere.
01:03:00.834 --> 01:03:04.837
[UNKNOWN]: DEA, our vehicles are arm-replated, bulletproof glass, so we were allowed to take our cars home.
01:03:04.877 --> 01:03:07.659
[UNKNOWN]: And we were allowed to use them for personal business because of what we did.
01:03:08.119 --> 01:03:15.361
[UNKNOWN]: Are the residents themselves, do you have DEA security monitoring a house and observing?
01:03:15.421 --> 01:03:23.762
[UNKNOWN]: And well, there were rules that you had to live, we all lived in apartments, nobody lived in a house in Columbia.
01:03:24.903 --> 01:03:27.723
[UNKNOWN]: Your apartment had to be at least on the third floor higher.
01:03:28.543 --> 01:03:32.904
[UNKNOWN]: They would come in to put my alarm filming on all your windows if a bomb went off, you wouldn't have the, you know,
01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:44.872
[UNKNOWN]: The building had to have port arrows, which are local guards that anybody live in it building has, and they basically just protected the front door.
01:03:46.189 --> 01:03:57.652
[UNKNOWN]: Our complex was three buildings with a walled-in compound, so you had guards on the outside gates to let you in, and then each building was locked, and there was a guard inside that had to give you access.
01:03:57.693 --> 01:03:58.413
[UNKNOWN]: You couldn't come in.
01:03:59.193 --> 01:04:08.436
[UNKNOWN]: And then when you got to the elevator, there was only one apartment per floor, and they had these medical key locks on the elevator, so you could only go to your floor.
01:04:09.236 --> 01:04:15.538
[UNKNOWN]: And then when you stepped off of that, you had your front door, which our front door had four dead bolts,
01:04:17.466 --> 01:04:21.169
[UNKNOWN]: and alarms, and then you got into your apartment.
01:04:21.189 --> 01:04:38.622
[UNKNOWN]: So it was pre-secure, and then the embassy had these roving patrols of retired Colombian police officers, three-man patrols that would continuously 24 hours a day, seven days a week, just rotate amongst all American apartment buildings, any American employee.
01:04:40.008 --> 01:04:42.869
[UNKNOWN]: which, you know, if they're dirty now, you know, we're all the employees live, right?
01:04:42.889 --> 01:04:45.390
[UNKNOWN]: So I'm not sure how secure that was.
01:04:45.410 --> 01:04:45.630
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:04:46.190 --> 01:04:55.653
[UNKNOWN]: I guess maybe it's more of a, it was a different time back then, but I think of that in present day with, you know, the capabilities of cartels and,
01:04:57.174 --> 01:05:02.560
[UNKNOWN]: And what I would assume the networks are that the DA is actively trying to combat and dismantle.
01:05:02.600 --> 01:05:10.549
[UNKNOWN]: And if I'm in that position and I was married, there was zero chance I would bring a spouse to live in any country where that's happening.
01:05:11.250 --> 01:05:12.251
[UNKNOWN]: Even with all of that.
01:05:13.753 --> 01:05:20.316
[UNKNOWN]: You know, I can still see a million ways that can go sideways, and I just wouldn't want to put any family member in that position.
01:05:20.496 --> 01:05:22.277
[UNKNOWN]: Is it from your perspective?
01:05:22.297 --> 01:05:26.618
[UNKNOWN]: I know you're retired now, but vastly different now than it was then as far as that concern is.
01:05:27.119 --> 01:05:28.299
[UNKNOWN]: I think it's probably still the same.
01:05:28.359 --> 01:05:28.879
[UNKNOWN]: Still the same.
01:05:29.059 --> 01:05:29.240
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:05:29.780 --> 01:05:32.161
[UNKNOWN]: It was, I mean, I have here.
01:05:32.821 --> 01:05:34.842
[UNKNOWN]: So he was in country three years before I got there.
01:05:37.223 --> 01:05:43.306
[UNKNOWN]: He two different times, they got very specific and credible intelligence.
01:05:44.067 --> 01:05:46.028
[UNKNOWN]: The Sikarias were under a way to take him out.
01:05:46.969 --> 01:05:55.713
[UNKNOWN]: And he tells the story one day, he got home from work in his apartment, and I don't know if his group supervisor is immediate supervisor or the next step up is called an assistant, especially in charge.
01:05:55.733 --> 01:05:59.796
[UNKNOWN]: But one of them, Colin said, and we didn't have cell phones back then.
01:05:59.996 --> 01:06:03.518
[UNKNOWN]: Calls him on his home phone and says, everything in case you're a part of him.
01:06:03.558 --> 01:06:04.478
[UNKNOWN]: He's like, yeah, what's going on?
01:06:05.819 --> 01:06:10.621
[UNKNOWN]: Get in your car right now, get your gun and get in your car and drive to the embassy as quickly as you can.
01:06:11.102 --> 01:06:18.065
[UNKNOWN]: Don't stop, don't, don't call anybody, don't change clothes, go get your car right to second and get to the embassy.
01:06:18.865 --> 01:06:19.826
[UNKNOWN]: And he said, what's going on?
01:06:19.846 --> 01:06:20.926
[UNKNOWN]: I wonder what's happening?
01:06:20.966 --> 01:06:22.907
[UNKNOWN]: He said, we've got credible intelligence car.
01:06:22.927 --> 01:06:23.908
[UNKNOWN]: He doesn't know where to get you.
01:06:24.987 --> 01:06:41.597
[UNKNOWN]: So he did, he'll tell you, scared death, you know, come screaming in the embassy, like they got the gates away, but not only, you know, they got, regional security officers out there with machine guns, you got the cops right there, the Marines right there, and the response to that was they got him a new apartment.
01:06:42.838 --> 01:06:43.838
[UNKNOWN]: And they did that twice.
01:06:45.659 --> 01:06:47.200
[UNKNOWN]: Is there any element of,
01:06:49.419 --> 01:07:06.012
[UNKNOWN]: the cartels kind of not wanting to do something like that to draw so much attention to what's going on like is there kind of a almost an unwritten rule or a system that they try to adhere to to to only do what's necessary kind of things that makes sense.
01:07:06.412 --> 01:07:13.397
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah and back then, I'm like if you're familiar with the story about Kiki Camerina or
01:07:17.340 --> 01:07:28.472
[UNKNOWN]: So the response of the United States government at that time because the administration was to shut the border down with Mexico, which was the right thing to do because the Mexicans were not doing what they should be doing.
01:07:29.113 --> 01:07:29.733
[UNKNOWN]: They were lying.
01:07:30.214 --> 01:07:35.299
[UNKNOWN]: And there was, you know, pants on who's who's story you believe, okay?
01:07:36.663 --> 01:07:39.126
[UNKNOWN]: Um, Kiki was killed three times.
01:07:39.526 --> 01:07:45.552
[UNKNOWN]: They injected adrenaline straight into his heart twice to bring him back and it's horrible.
01:07:46.253 --> 01:07:54.041
[UNKNOWN]: So if you think about why our drug dealers and business to make money, right, when you shut down the border,
01:07:54.894 --> 01:08:18.470
[UNKNOWN]: there nobody's making money you're just bringing undue heat on you so we believe that one of the things that kept us alive down there was the the the legacy of of kiki kamerina because ask about sure i'm sure he'd love to torture us and kill us and chop us up in the little pieces but uh... he saw what the response would be from the u.s. government if he did that because of kiki so
01:08:19.891 --> 01:08:23.032
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, there was one wiretap where Pablo makes a reference.
01:08:23.052 --> 01:08:27.033
[UNKNOWN]: This is after he escaped from his prison, where he makes a reference to the two green goes.
01:08:27.073 --> 01:08:31.654
[UNKNOWN]: Now, there were, I mean, we had Deb grew with us, we're back in there, we call it Seal Team Six.
01:08:32.194 --> 01:08:33.134
[UNKNOWN]: And we had Delta with us.
01:08:33.574 --> 01:08:35.795
[UNKNOWN]: We had Jerry Boykow with us at one point.
01:08:36.255 --> 01:08:45.217
[UNKNOWN]: He was a colonel then, you know, Vincent became a three star, and we had CIA was there.
01:08:49.192 --> 01:08:53.234
[UNKNOWN]: I don't want to name the agency, but the people behind the curtain, and you know what I'm talking about.
01:08:53.915 --> 01:09:02.980
[UNKNOWN]: There are a lot of green goes there, but we know who he's talking about, and then a few weeks after that, they get intercepted a phone call where he mentions our names, opinion, and Murphy.
01:09:03.380 --> 01:09:03.500
[UNKNOWN]: Oh.
01:09:04.021 --> 01:09:07.643
[UNKNOWN]: I got to tell you, Mike, that was, he put a bounty on us, $300,000 each.
01:09:07.663 --> 01:09:08.163
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:09:09.204 --> 01:09:13.226
[UNKNOWN]: It's a little bit disconcerting, but, you know, it's not like, I joke around when we do our
01:09:14.607 --> 01:09:17.288
[UNKNOWN]: It's not like that TV show cheers where you want everybody to know your name.
01:09:18.848 --> 01:09:20.068
[UNKNOWN]: You don't just gotta know your name.
01:09:20.208 --> 01:09:24.069
[UNKNOWN]: All right, so you're going back to the career path.
01:09:24.109 --> 01:09:28.550
[UNKNOWN]: You go through language school, you find yourself in Bogota first.
01:09:29.430 --> 01:09:35.171
[UNKNOWN]: What was it like when you first landed, and at what point did you meet a pioneer and partner up with them?
01:09:36.051 --> 01:09:37.952
[UNKNOWN]: So we fly in on Sunday night.
01:09:39.412 --> 01:09:44.513
[UNKNOWN]: And if you've seen the Narcos show, it shows that we had to trouble with an immigration in Columbia and our cat and all that.
01:09:44.553 --> 01:09:45.253
[UNKNOWN]: That part is true.
01:09:46.053 --> 01:09:50.994
[UNKNOWN]: And they were photocopying in our past sports and all I think we weren't there surreptitiously.
01:09:52.595 --> 01:09:55.595
[UNKNOWN]: We had diplomatic immunity, so we had all that.
01:09:55.736 --> 01:10:01.817
[UNKNOWN]: But they put us in a DEA put us in a boarding house instead of a hotel or an apartment because we had this cat.
01:10:03.017 --> 01:10:14.828
[UNKNOWN]: And this apartment was terrible, this boarding house was terrible, the opening, the area above the door coming into our room was completely open, so if you could do a pull up you could climb in our room with us.
01:10:16.020 --> 01:10:25.466
[UNKNOWN]: The bed was one of those beds that just swayed down the middle, so we'd lay down, you'd roll over on top of each other and it's probably after midnight, but we finally got in the boarding house.
01:10:25.826 --> 01:10:35.751
[UNKNOWN]: And we're anxious, now I got my 9 million, I got my Smith Model 59 and 6.59, lay down the bed stand there and about 2 o'clock in the morning we hear gunshots outside the window.
01:10:36.812 --> 01:10:38.414
[UNKNOWN]: My wife, she's very tactical too.
01:10:38.454 --> 01:10:47.743
[UNKNOWN]: We both are all off the bed and I reached up and grabbed my pistol and you just wait to see what's going to happen is that for us is what's going on and then you hear automatic weapons fire.
01:10:48.764 --> 01:10:55.091
[UNKNOWN]: I just put my gun back up on the nightstand and said, they went, but you know, finally it calms down.
01:10:55.331 --> 01:10:58.934
[UNKNOWN]: We never heard police cars, we never saw a flashing light show up or anything.
01:10:59.115 --> 01:10:59.955
[UNKNOWN]: I don't know what happened.
01:11:00.826 --> 01:11:06.288
[UNKNOWN]: But my wife and I look at you looking at each other, thinking, what do we get ourselves into this time?
01:11:06.308 --> 01:11:07.469
[UNKNOWN]: That's our first night there.
01:11:08.429 --> 01:11:12.771
[UNKNOWN]: So the next day, somebody from the embassy picks us up, takes us into the office.
01:11:12.811 --> 01:11:18.333
[UNKNOWN]: And it takes you a few weeks in the embassy to get all your building passes and your security briefings.
01:11:18.353 --> 01:11:20.214
[UNKNOWN]: And just all the crap you've got to go through.
01:11:21.755 --> 01:11:27.257
[UNKNOWN]: But that first week on Thursday is when Pablo Eskabarsher rendered to that custom-built prison.
01:11:28.211 --> 01:11:33.172
[UNKNOWN]: Now what I like to say is that he heard that Steve Murphy was in country and he knew I was going to get him one way or another.
01:11:33.192 --> 01:11:34.112
[UNKNOWN]: Might as well just give it up.
01:11:34.792 --> 01:11:36.052
[UNKNOWN]: That's probably what I had.
01:11:36.272 --> 01:11:38.153
[UNKNOWN]: That's a joke.
01:11:39.093 --> 01:11:55.576
[UNKNOWN]: But that's when I'm at Havier and in that environment, they gave you a few days to get to know everybody in the office to see who you're going to click with because if it's going to be head button, there's nothing productive coming out of that.
01:11:56.797 --> 01:12:06.583
[UNKNOWN]: Havier was partnered up with a guy named Gary Shared and at the time, Gary had been an ATF agent before DEA and he'd been stationed in Charleston, West Virginia.
01:12:07.103 --> 01:12:10.765
[UNKNOWN]: So we had some mutual friends in the law enforcement community from West Virginia.
01:12:10.785 --> 01:12:12.786
[UNKNOWN]: And so he and I kind of got to be friends to start with.
01:12:13.847 --> 01:12:21.371
[UNKNOWN]: Gary gets promoted, but I started hanging around with him and Havier, Gary gets promoted and moved up to Baron Kee.
01:12:21.992 --> 01:12:24.453
[UNKNOWN]: And so it just made sense for me to step into his position.
01:12:25.987 --> 01:12:41.062
[UNKNOWN]: Not, I'm not as good an investigator as Gary is, he's just, he's this guy that's like GQ always looks good, his hair looks good, he's in great shape, the women just fawn over him when he shows up, you know, and he's extremely intelligent, you know, I'm just a hell of an investigator.
01:12:42.056 --> 01:12:49.182
[UNKNOWN]: But what that did that first year is it gave me the opportunity to sit there and really delve into the Escapar case files.
01:12:49.822 --> 01:12:55.987
[UNKNOWN]: You know, we'd had personality studies done on him and leading members of his organization.
01:12:56.067 --> 01:12:59.090
[UNKNOWN]: So I knew who Pablo was before I came there.
01:12:59.110 --> 01:13:03.634
[UNKNOWN]: I never had a case at his level, but all the dope in South Florida was meeting Cartel Dope.
01:13:07.243 --> 01:13:17.106
[UNKNOWN]: I also gave me the opportunity to work in with Havier, to meet the police counterparts that he's been working with for three years, and it was a specialized group called Dehyene D.I.J.I.N.
01:13:18.107 --> 01:13:21.728
[UNKNOWN]: And these were like an actionable intelligence group of guys.
01:13:21.768 --> 01:13:23.468
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, these were some butt kick and guys.
01:13:23.728 --> 01:13:26.449
[UNKNOWN]: You'd love working with them.
01:13:26.469 --> 01:13:33.332
[UNKNOWN]: So at that time, we would fly out of Mediine, because we were trying to collect intel on what's going on inside the prison.
01:13:36.165 --> 01:13:48.489
[UNKNOWN]: This DEA, one of its best things that DEA does is attack command and control groups of any organization.
01:13:49.529 --> 01:13:54.051
[UNKNOWN]: And think about it, whether you're a criminal organization or a legal organization, you have to be able to communicate.
01:13:54.951 --> 01:13:57.992
[UNKNOWN]: DEA was phenomenal at intercepting communications.
01:13:58.032 --> 01:13:59.813
[UNKNOWN]: That was our bread and butter.
01:13:59.873 --> 01:14:00.953
[UNKNOWN]: And we'll talk about wiretaps.
01:14:02.830 --> 01:14:09.194
[UNKNOWN]: Well, that whole year that Pablo was in the prison there, whole year, you know how many intercepts we got out of there?
01:14:09.814 --> 01:14:10.875
[UNKNOWN]: None, really.
01:14:11.475 --> 01:14:14.297
[UNKNOWN]: And we kept thinking, man, we're better than this.
01:14:14.357 --> 01:14:24.002
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, and I'll be honest with you, Columbia, it wasn't going up on somebody's phone wasn't restricted like it is in the United States.
01:14:25.003 --> 01:14:25.283
[UNKNOWN]: I mean,
01:14:26.920 --> 01:14:28.702
[UNKNOWN]: You can pretty much just go up on, not us.
01:14:29.062 --> 01:14:31.404
[UNKNOWN]: And when we're doing wire taps, this is the Columbia National Police.
01:14:31.424 --> 01:14:32.425
[UNKNOWN]: We're there in a support role.
01:14:33.246 --> 01:14:34.887
[UNKNOWN]: So we're not doing wire taps on anybody.
01:14:36.469 --> 01:14:38.411
[UNKNOWN]: But I mean, they just go up on a phone.
01:14:39.672 --> 01:14:41.233
[UNKNOWN]: And we could get any.
01:14:41.353 --> 01:14:41.794
[UNKNOWN]: Why not?
01:14:42.600 --> 01:14:46.122
[UNKNOWN]: Well, when he finally escaped the next day, we went to the prison.
01:14:46.842 --> 01:14:48.462
[UNKNOWN]: He was using carrier pigeons.
01:14:48.823 --> 01:14:49.103
[UNKNOWN]: Really.
01:14:49.203 --> 01:14:50.183
[UNKNOWN]: That's absolutely true.
01:14:51.364 --> 01:14:52.784
[UNKNOWN]: We found training books on them.
01:14:52.844 --> 01:14:54.625
[UNKNOWN]: We found coops full of pigeons.
01:14:56.046 --> 01:15:01.728
[UNKNOWN]: On one leg, it was a little bit in their show, where that pigeon, where they would go to, who they would fly to.
01:15:01.748 --> 01:15:02.728
[UNKNOWN]: So that's all accurate.
01:15:03.229 --> 01:15:04.049
[UNKNOWN]: It's blue or not.
01:15:04.189 --> 01:15:04.849
[UNKNOWN]: We were shocked.
01:15:05.330 --> 01:15:06.690
[UNKNOWN]: Now what's the name of their own stuff?
01:15:07.110 --> 01:15:07.510
[UNKNOWN]: It is.
01:15:07.610 --> 01:15:08.851
[UNKNOWN]: So that's what they were even.
01:15:09.311 --> 01:15:10.872
[UNKNOWN]: What's not accurate about that?
01:15:11.432 --> 01:15:15.395
[UNKNOWN]: The Narcos part is it shows me and Harvey out there with shot guns trying to shoot those pigeons down.
01:15:16.035 --> 01:15:18.877
[UNKNOWN]: Go back and watch that scene and look where you are in proximity to the prison.
01:15:19.357 --> 01:15:20.438
[UNKNOWN]: They had heard those shot guns.
01:15:21.038 --> 01:15:22.119
[UNKNOWN]: They had come and got us down.
01:15:23.400 --> 01:15:24.340
[UNKNOWN]: That's fascinating.
01:15:24.881 --> 01:15:29.083
[UNKNOWN]: I am curious what did you and Harvey air think of each other for very first impression?
01:15:31.765 --> 01:15:33.106
[UNKNOWN]: We're complete opposites.
01:15:33.566 --> 01:15:35.328
[UNKNOWN]: I've been married most of my life.
01:15:36.308 --> 01:15:38.490
[UNKNOWN]: He's married now, but he wasn't back there and never married.
01:15:39.515 --> 01:15:51.044
[UNKNOWN]: I am very organized, was one of the first to have a laptop computer, a little Texas instrument that you had to load the word program on there every time you turned it on, it was really primitive.
01:15:51.304 --> 01:15:57.389
[UNKNOWN]: But it would stay at the art back then, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a okay writer.
01:15:57.729 --> 01:15:58.610
[UNKNOWN]: Some people sound good right.
01:15:58.650 --> 01:16:06.996
[UNKNOWN]: I don't think I am, but I'm okay writing up reports and things like that and I know how to keep things in chronological order and show relationships and who's responsible for what, things like that.
01:16:08.333 --> 01:16:11.596
[UNKNOWN]: Hive here on the other hand is the most disorganized person you ever meet.
01:16:12.577 --> 01:16:16.241
[UNKNOWN]: His desk might be three feet of paperwork.
01:16:17.262 --> 01:16:24.369
[UNKNOWN]: When he and I would go to Mediine after Pablo escaped, my wife would come in and help straighten up his desk and he'd come back and he'd be so ticked off at her because he couldn't find anything.
01:16:24.909 --> 01:16:28.032
[UNKNOWN]: But when he's got that man, I can say, Hive here, where's the report on this and he'd say.
01:16:29.058 --> 01:16:30.719
[UNKNOWN]: He digging that pile and handed it to you.
01:16:30.739 --> 01:16:32.861
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, he's just the his own system.
01:16:33.121 --> 01:16:33.521
[UNKNOWN]: He did.
01:16:34.182 --> 01:16:36.163
[UNKNOWN]: And his mind was like an encyclopedia.
01:16:36.883 --> 01:16:38.625
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, the guy was just intelligent.
01:16:38.665 --> 01:16:44.749
[UNKNOWN]: He could, I could say, I've heard Mike and Clint were involved in this.
01:16:44.789 --> 01:16:45.890
[UNKNOWN]: Now, what's their relationship?
01:16:46.410 --> 01:16:47.871
[UNKNOWN]: Well, Mike's responsible for this.
01:16:47.911 --> 01:16:50.132
[UNKNOWN]: And here's his relationship to Pablo Escobore and Clint.
01:16:50.453 --> 01:16:51.634
[UNKNOWN]: These are his responsibilities.
01:16:51.654 --> 01:16:52.674
[UNKNOWN]: And he's got these other people.
01:16:52.734 --> 01:16:55.676
[UNKNOWN]: He could just, right off top of this, hey, I'd just tell you all this stuff.
01:16:56.397 --> 01:16:57.678
[UNKNOWN]: And I'm just sitting there typing it up
01:16:59.187 --> 01:16:59.669
[UNKNOWN]: initially
01:17:03.116 --> 01:17:16.923
[UNKNOWN]: There was a little bit of a honeymoon period or newlywed period there where we could go down and meet the cops and that might be in Bogotá traffic that could be a 45-minute drive and it's only a few miles.
01:17:17.844 --> 01:17:25.107
[UNKNOWN]: He could fall asleep as soon as we got in the car because we had drivers, bodyguards that would drive us down and he'd sleep all the way and they'd better not wake him up.
01:17:26.328 --> 01:17:27.769
[UNKNOWN]: So it was a little contentious to start with.
01:17:27.809 --> 01:17:31.191
[UNKNOWN]: But then we, you know, you get through the honeymoon period and things just started
01:17:35.203 --> 01:17:51.738
[UNKNOWN]: I eventually became the firearms instructor for DEA down there as I used to shoot competition and all that stuff and however you ought to have almost have to handcuff him and drag him to the rings to get him to qualify, but that just wasn't his thing, you know, he can shoot, but he just, he didn't like spending time on the rings like I did.
01:17:51.758 --> 01:17:52.098
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:17:52.499 --> 01:17:57.623
[UNKNOWN]: So it's just a lot of differences between us, but even the other agents in the office would comment, they're like,
01:17:58.384 --> 01:18:14.158
[UNKNOWN]: You know, you guys are like those two old grumpy men, but it's like a partnership made in heaven because you played each other's strengths and weaknesses and it was a fantastic partnership and here in 2026 we're still partners today.
01:18:14.398 --> 01:18:15.199
[UNKNOWN]: That's incredible.
01:18:15.659 --> 01:18:24.930
[UNKNOWN]: All right, so you guys kind of move along in your relationship and start to really kind of work the Pablo Escobar case.
01:18:25.010 --> 01:18:32.438
[UNKNOWN]: I am curious for those that haven't seen Narcos and who here the name Pablo Escobar and just think he was a drug dealer.
01:18:33.038 --> 01:18:41.305
[UNKNOWN]: It was quite a bit more to his kind of personality character and I think influence on the entire region.
01:18:41.365 --> 01:18:48.571
[UNKNOWN]: Can you kind of speak to who he really was and what impact he had on the entire region?
01:19:01.733 --> 01:19:03.854
[UNKNOWN]: Instead of doing things for good, did things for bad.
01:19:04.514 --> 01:19:17.318
[UNKNOWN]: Now, he would want you to believe, and especially members of his family nowadays, with the ones you to believe that he was a Robin Hood, this myth that he was a Robin Hood type character that he was taken from the rich and given to the poor, was bullshit.
01:19:19.799 --> 01:19:25.321
[UNKNOWN]: He did do good things, and I hate given this guy credit, but he did build clinics.
01:19:25.981 --> 01:19:29.142
[UNKNOWN]: He built housing for people who lived on the edge of a trash dump.
01:19:29.978 --> 01:19:32.420
[UNKNOWN]: He gave away money, he gave away food.
01:19:34.581 --> 01:19:40.125
[UNKNOWN]: But, here's a guy that at one time had as many as 500 Sikarios protecting.
01:19:40.145 --> 01:19:41.306
[UNKNOWN]: He's got his own little army going.
01:19:42.347 --> 01:19:47.490
[UNKNOWN]: As his Sikarios are being killed, when he's ready to recruit new Sikarios, where do you think he went back to?
01:19:48.551 --> 01:19:49.612
[UNKNOWN]: There's neighborhoods, yeah.
01:19:50.272 --> 01:19:54.475
[UNKNOWN]: So he didn't, he was not a Robin Hood, he's a master manipulator.
01:19:54.615 --> 01:19:56.917
[UNKNOWN]: He manipulated those people to where they loved him.
01:19:57.998 --> 01:20:06.204
[UNKNOWN]: And you know, you can kind of understand it that Havier was with some Columbia police officers when they arrested this 15-year-old kid, a secario.
01:20:06.345 --> 01:20:10.728
[UNKNOWN]: He was in a dance club and they were able, they got intelligence, he was at this club.
01:20:10.748 --> 01:20:13.990
[UNKNOWN]: So when were they able to go in and get him, had to fight him to take him down, had to gun on him.
01:20:15.111 --> 01:20:19.735
[UNKNOWN]: And when he got him back to the office, questioned him and he was very open and honest about everything.
01:20:19.775 --> 01:20:21.936
[UNKNOWN]: He said, yeah, I'm a scarring with Pablo Escobor.
01:20:22.577 --> 01:20:24.959
[UNKNOWN]: He said, my wife and I are my mom and I,
01:20:26.057 --> 01:20:29.458
[UNKNOWN]: had to go in a trash dump to get cardboard pieces of wood to live in.
01:20:30.039 --> 01:20:33.280
[UNKNOWN]: We had to scrounge food that other people were throwing away and those were our meals.
01:20:33.880 --> 01:20:39.843
[UNKNOWN]: And Pablo came in and gave my mom an apartment that has electricity, has running water, has a lock on the door.
01:20:40.703 --> 01:20:42.404
[UNKNOWN]: So now she has a sense of security.
01:20:44.164 --> 01:20:44.484
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
01:20:45.265 --> 01:20:47.806
[UNKNOWN]: You can kind of see why that kid is willing to
01:20:49.848 --> 01:21:11.799
[UNKNOWN]: take a 38 revolver and walk up behind a uniform police officer and shoot him in the back of the head for $100 because that's the bounty that Pablo put on the Colombian National Police won $100 a man or a woman that is brave enough to put on a uniform to protect other people and their life is worth a hundred bucks.
01:21:12.940 --> 01:21:16.762
[UNKNOWN]: It's horrible and this kid he explained he said I've killed
01:21:18.701 --> 01:21:19.081
[UNKNOWN]: for $100 each.
01:21:19.121 --> 01:21:21.141
[UNKNOWN]: He said, they said, well, how do you do it?
01:21:21.161 --> 01:21:22.862
[UNKNOWN]: He said, I just walked down the street.
01:21:22.902 --> 01:21:24.902
[UNKNOWN]: I found police officers, where they're not paying attention.
01:21:24.942 --> 01:21:25.682
[UNKNOWN]: I walk up behind them.
01:21:25.702 --> 01:21:26.762
[UNKNOWN]: I'll shoot them in back of the head.
01:21:27.342 --> 01:21:29.003
[UNKNOWN]: He said, one day, I killed three and one day.
01:21:29.643 --> 01:21:30.863
[UNKNOWN]: Went to a certain address.
01:21:30.903 --> 01:21:31.263
[UNKNOWN]: I got $300.
01:21:31.283 --> 01:21:34.064
[UNKNOWN]: How dare I say, what'd you do with the money?
01:21:34.084 --> 01:21:35.784
[UNKNOWN]: He said, most of it goes to my mom.
01:21:36.044 --> 01:21:39.104
[UNKNOWN]: He said, I keep money for, I want good jeans.
01:21:39.164 --> 01:21:41.225
[UNKNOWN]: I want a good pair of tennis shoes, and I won't be her money.
01:21:42.065 --> 01:21:42.725
[UNKNOWN]: 15 years old.
01:21:43.545 --> 01:21:44.645
[UNKNOWN]: The rest of it goes to my mom.
01:21:48.492 --> 01:21:49.753
[UNKNOWN]: I won't live to be an old man.
01:21:49.973 --> 01:21:54.635
[UNKNOWN]: He said, my life expectancy, I'm sure he didn't use those kind of terms because I don't think he was that educated.
01:21:55.636 --> 01:22:00.439
[UNKNOWN]: But he said, I will be dead by the time I'm 19, 20, 21 years old.
01:22:01.659 --> 01:22:04.541
[UNKNOWN]: But I will fight for Pablo.
01:22:05.121 --> 01:22:06.242
[UNKNOWN]: I will kill for Pablo.
01:22:06.482 --> 01:22:07.643
[UNKNOWN]: I will die for Pablo.
01:22:07.943 --> 01:22:11.825
[UNKNOWN]: So he had that almost like a control over people.
01:22:12.225 --> 01:22:13.546
[UNKNOWN]: It's just a charismatic personality.
01:22:14.346 --> 01:22:14.787
[UNKNOWN]: But then,
01:22:16.211 --> 01:22:21.892
[UNKNOWN]: We used to say that Pablo was responsible for 10 to 15,000 murders in Columbia.
01:22:23.733 --> 01:22:30.034
[UNKNOWN]: Several years ago, back before COVID, there was one of the streaming channels that did a story about Pablo Escobar.
01:22:30.074 --> 01:22:31.015
[UNKNOWN]: And we were interviewed on it.
01:22:31.715 --> 01:22:36.396
[UNKNOWN]: And they interviewed one of Pablo's last remaining saccharges, who is now dead.
01:22:36.436 --> 01:22:37.536
[UNKNOWN]: His street name was Popeye.
01:22:38.216 --> 01:22:40.457
[UNKNOWN]: So, the name was John Hyrovaskas of Alaska's.
01:22:42.145 --> 01:22:45.327
[UNKNOWN]: And they asked him about the murders that Pablo was responsible for.
01:22:45.387 --> 01:22:48.489
[UNKNOWN]: He said, Pope, I said, the green goes, they got it all wrong.
01:22:49.070 --> 01:22:50.351
[UNKNOWN]: It wasn't 15,000.
01:22:50.991 --> 01:22:55.654
[UNKNOWN]: It's more than 50,000 people that Pablo Escobar is responsible for murdering.
01:22:56.375 --> 01:22:57.475
[UNKNOWN]: And he said, I'll give you an example.
01:22:57.976 --> 01:23:02.839
[UNKNOWN]: I personally, Pope, I say in this, set up the murders of 3,000 people.
01:23:03.460 --> 01:23:06.902
[UNKNOWN]: And I personally pulled the trigger on as many as 300 of those people.
01:23:09.083 --> 01:23:35.458
[UNKNOWN]: So, not only talking about a man who was able to build a drug manufacturing and distribution organization, at that one point made him responsible for as much as 80% of the world's cocaine, but we're also talking about a mass murder on the, you know, not at the level of a, eight off Hitler, but within Columbia, I see the comparison, right?
01:23:36.518 --> 01:23:48.982
[UNKNOWN]: minutes striking to hear those numbers and to me I've kind of always wondered in that kind of criminal element of hierarchy where you get a guy that's that big and that powerful and that wealthy.
01:23:50.223 --> 01:23:58.626
[UNKNOWN]: How does a guy like that maintain the sense of loyalty in kind of the upper echelons of leadership where there's not
01:23:59.286 --> 01:24:21.501
[UNKNOWN]: Somebody trying to kill him and take his place or, you know, because to me I've always wondered that whether in maybe this is where Hollywood crosses the line You know, but the terrain like the more tyrannical somebody is it seems kind of into it intuitively that it would be It would be harder and harder to maintain a sense of loyalty that the bigger dick you become
01:24:22.541 --> 01:24:28.925
[UNKNOWN]: Do you have an answer to that or understand how they're able to maintain that sense of hierarchy and loyalty?
01:24:29.586 --> 01:24:31.026
[UNKNOWN]: I think it's a combination of factors.
01:24:31.066 --> 01:24:32.988
[UNKNOWN]: I think the charismatic personality is one.
01:24:34.063 --> 01:24:52.309
[UNKNOWN]: Pablo was, you know, the Hispanic culture, the Latino culture is different than the Gringo culture, the whole heck and described this, and he's fine with going up and hugging his guys and, you know, kiss him on a cheek and that kind of thing, that personal touch.
01:24:55.270 --> 01:25:00.392
[UNKNOWN]: But he also didn't have a conscience, he had no remorse whatsoever, and he wouldn't
01:25:02.872 --> 01:25:03.853
[UNKNOWN]: and not just killing you.
01:25:04.754 --> 01:25:10.498
[UNKNOWN]: He made it plain that he wanted people tortured, he wanted to know what they were saying about Pablo Escobar and who they've been talking to.
01:25:11.539 --> 01:25:20.526
[UNKNOWN]: There's a photograph in our presentation when we're doing our keynote speaking events and we never pull it out regardless of the audience, unless it's kids.
01:25:21.307 --> 01:25:24.510
[UNKNOWN]: But it was a guy who was a snitch against Pablo Escobar and a formant.
01:25:25.285 --> 01:25:34.851
[UNKNOWN]: and they had tortured this guy, they had pilled this skin off his body, they had broken countless bones in the body, I mean, who knows all the torture and then they burned him.
01:25:35.611 --> 01:25:38.893
[UNKNOWN]: Crack this chest open and we've got a picture of the body laying on the sidewalk.
01:25:41.065 --> 01:25:47.207
[UNKNOWN]: That's just that level of brutality that he would not hesitate to employ if he wasn't happy with you.
01:25:47.447 --> 01:25:52.349
[UNKNOWN]: And it's not because you stole from him or he didn't follow order, maybe he just did something to tick them off that day.
01:25:53.229 --> 01:26:02.272
[UNKNOWN]: You know, the guy started out as his, as a novice criminal, his crimes were stealing hubcaps and stealing gravestones out of cemeteries.
01:26:02.532 --> 01:26:06.913
[UNKNOWN]: And they'd sandblast the gravestones down and they'd sell them back to the companies that sell gravestones.
01:26:10.997 --> 01:26:13.256
[UNKNOWN]: It's just horrible, and then his first drug deal.
01:26:15.367 --> 01:26:20.831
[UNKNOWN]: I guess his reputation for violence was becoming known as a young man because there was a guy named Mr. Streppo.
01:26:20.851 --> 01:26:33.722
[UNKNOWN]: I don't remember his whole name now, who was doing a drug deal and he asked, he asked, I started to say, however you're, he asked Pablo to assist him and Pablo saw how much money this guy made and it was 15, 20 kilos of Coke.
01:26:33.742 --> 01:26:34.362
[UNKNOWN]: It wasn't a lot.
01:26:34.402 --> 01:26:43.910
[UNKNOWN]: Back then, it was probably a lot, but this is an inside Columbia, Pablo saw the potential for making money from cocaine, so he just goes and kills for Streppo and takes over his business.
01:26:45.742 --> 01:26:53.665
[UNKNOWN]: No remorse, and here's one thing I really like to point out about Pablo, his wife.
01:26:53.705 --> 01:26:58.546
[UNKNOWN]: He was only married one time, because he had multiple girlfriends, and you know, that's no secret.
01:26:58.946 --> 01:27:00.747
[UNKNOWN]: That's part of that culture.
01:27:02.547 --> 01:27:07.489
[UNKNOWN]: But his wife, she's written a book, and she talks about this in her book.
01:27:07.529 --> 01:27:08.069
[UNKNOWN]: I read the book.
01:27:09.770 --> 01:27:10.650
[UNKNOWN]: He got her pregnant.
01:27:10.750 --> 01:27:13.691
[UNKNOWN]: She had to have an abortion in the age 13, because he got her pregnant when she was
01:27:15.560 --> 01:27:17.282
[UNKNOWN]: and he's in his 20s, mid 20s.
01:27:18.224 --> 01:27:20.406
[UNKNOWN]: So on top of everything else, he's a pedophile.
01:27:21.428 --> 01:27:26.534
[UNKNOWN]: And that right there is one of the worst crimes in my book that you can ever commit.
01:27:27.015 --> 01:27:27.896
[UNKNOWN]: No two ways about it.
01:27:29.438 --> 01:27:30.880
[UNKNOWN]: I guess I'm still baffled that,
01:27:32.262 --> 01:27:48.990
[UNKNOWN]: with a temper or a fuse that short that, you know, the guys in the upper echelons of management for him, knowing that, you know, it's not just snitching or stealing, it's, you could piss him off once and he would have his guys do that to you.
01:27:49.970 --> 01:28:02.740
[UNKNOWN]: If I'm, of course, I've never been in that position, would never be in that position, but it's hard for me not to imagine being in that position and kind of looking around at the other guys and being like, do we really want to put up with this guy?
01:28:02.780 --> 01:28:09.925
[UNKNOWN]: Like, any one of us are one off-handed common away from getting our skin peeled off and set on fire?
01:28:10.025 --> 01:28:12.086
[UNKNOWN]: Like, why don't we just knock him off?
01:28:12.967 --> 01:28:21.214
[UNKNOWN]: and run this a little more gentlemanly I don't know maybe that's a ridiculous question but it's hard for me not to think like why would you put up with that?
01:28:22.796 --> 01:28:30.482
[UNKNOWN]: He just you good question I don't know I don't understand that type of loyalty I mean we have loyalty in our careers I chosen careers but
01:28:33.318 --> 01:28:41.466
[UNKNOWN]: He, I think he showed such loyalty to his most trusted intercircle, and his, and probably wasn't the brains.
01:28:41.506 --> 01:28:49.454
[UNKNOWN]: It was this cousin Gustavo Degree, and how Gustavo Gavaria Gustavo Degree was the attorney general.
01:28:50.343 --> 01:28:53.585
[UNKNOWN]: But his cousin, Gustavo, was the true brains.
01:28:53.625 --> 01:29:08.411
[UNKNOWN]: He's the guy that set up the jungle labs, that compartmentalize things, that set up the different routes, the transportation routes, the smoking routes, how to get the money back in, compartmentalizing sections within the United States and other countries where they're distributed to everything.
01:29:08.771 --> 01:29:11.453
[UNKNOWN]: He's the total brains, Pablo's just the face of the organization.
01:29:12.233 --> 01:29:13.174
[UNKNOWN]: but he's the violent face.
01:29:13.334 --> 01:29:23.443
[UNKNOWN]: He's the guy that was willing to put himself out there in front of everybody in Columbia and the world to run for Congress as an assistant congressman.
01:29:23.484 --> 01:29:32.412
[UNKNOWN]: The guy got elected so next day he resigns because of health reasons and probably pops up to now he's in a member of Congress that didn't last too long ago.
01:29:32.692 --> 01:29:34.293
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:29:35.354 --> 01:29:53.570
[UNKNOWN]: As you're working the case and you're getting closer or more familiar kind of getting your feet wet with how to chase and ultimately capture him, how long did it take and at what point did you feel like you were really hitting your stride and you felt like you were going to be able to actually catch him.
01:29:54.401 --> 01:29:55.762
[UNKNOWN]: Well, they're at the very beginning.
01:29:56.322 --> 01:30:01.545
[UNKNOWN]: So, and there's two, just to back up a second, there's two manhunts for Pablo Escobar.
01:30:01.605 --> 01:30:07.849
[UNKNOWN]: There's the manhunt for him before he surrendered to the prison, and then there's the manhunt, the second one after he escaped from his prison.
01:30:09.610 --> 01:30:16.254
[UNKNOWN]: During that first manhunt, the guy that led all the operations was Colonel Eugle Martinez, who was a true Colombian hero.
01:30:17.844 --> 01:30:26.127
[UNKNOWN]: Um, when Pablo surrendered, the government wanted to thank Colonel Martinez, and so they gave him a posting and Madrid Spain.
01:30:26.768 --> 01:30:30.409
[UNKNOWN]: And that was one of the nicest places that the Colombians felt like they could ever be posted.
01:30:30.429 --> 01:30:32.150
[UNKNOWN]: That was an adaboy type thing.
01:30:33.220 --> 01:30:35.762
[UNKNOWN]: Fall hits different when you're actually dressed for it.
01:30:36.102 --> 01:30:49.952
[UNKNOWN]: I'm talking about real outerwear, down jackets that keep you warm without looking like you just rolled out of a camping trip, classic wool pieces, cashmere sweaters that honestly feel better than anything I've had from brands charging.
01:30:50.472 --> 01:30:51.613
[UNKNOWN]: three times the price.
01:30:51.973 --> 01:30:58.996
[UNKNOWN]: I picked up a cashmere sweater from Quints and I'm not exaggerating when I say it's one of the best things in my closet right now.
01:30:59.416 --> 01:31:02.198
[UNKNOWN]: It starts at 60 bucks and that's not a typo.
01:31:02.498 --> 01:31:03.679
[UNKNOWN]: Here's the thing about Quints.
01:31:03.999 --> 01:31:10.342
[UNKNOWN]: They cut out the middleman entirely and worked directly with the same ethical factories that make the high end stuff.
01:31:10.622 --> 01:31:16.465
[UNKNOWN]: So you're getting that same quality without the markup that pays for some brand's billboard campaign.
01:31:16.805 --> 01:31:30.135
[UNKNOWN]: We're talking 50 to 80% less than what comparable brands charge, and it's not just a peril, betting, bath, kitchen, home goods, all of it the same deal, premium quality, honest pricing.
01:31:30.515 --> 01:31:33.537
[UNKNOWN]: Find your next fall favorites at quince.
01:31:34.038 --> 01:31:38.401
[UNKNOWN]: Download the quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com.
01:31:38.641 --> 01:31:40.583
[UNKNOWN]: Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.
01:31:42.484 --> 01:31:49.559
[UNKNOWN]: now available in Canada and the UK too, and when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was mic drop.
01:31:49.639 --> 01:31:51.402
[UNKNOWN]: It's the best way to support the show.
01:31:52.244 --> 01:31:53.346
[UNKNOWN]: We probably was scapes.
01:31:56.157 --> 01:32:13.823
[UNKNOWN]: You know, we heard on the night that the news that night or maybe it's the next morning on the news that Pablo escaped and what had happened, we reported to the embassy, our boss calls, Harvey and I-N said, just got a call from the Columbia National Police, the President and the Columbia National Police wants you to, in many ASAP, they're re-establishing what they call.
01:32:13.843 --> 01:32:23.127
[UNKNOWN]: They look at a boosca, the search block, and that was the 600-man force whose sole responsibility was to try to find, capture or kill Pablo Escobar.
01:32:24.052 --> 01:32:33.978
[UNKNOWN]: So we turned right around, went back to our apartments, we had drivers back then, body cards, and packed our bags, and took off to the airport and the DEA air wing flew us up to Medine.
01:32:34.618 --> 01:32:38.641
[UNKNOWN]: And that's when for the next 18 months, Havion Hour Living and working with Columbia National Police up there.
01:32:42.263 --> 01:32:47.986
[UNKNOWN]: That's when we learned about the pigeons, and all the other, some of the six stuff that was going on side to prison.
01:32:49.387 --> 01:32:50.388
[UNKNOWN]: Can you give us some examples?
01:32:52.225 --> 01:33:12.462
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, we found, so it's not the prison, they had a bar, they had a little nightclub bar in there for just public and invited guests, but in that bar, we found pictures of fellow inmates dressed up in female undergarments and high heels, and
01:33:15.043 --> 01:33:23.788
[UNKNOWN]: Sex toys everywhere, just things that kind of make you skin crawl, which is strange because didn't they bust tons of Collegher rolls in all the time?
01:33:24.048 --> 01:33:29.571
[UNKNOWN]: Oh, yeah But there's still into that I guess I had other two, huh?
01:33:29.891 --> 01:33:32.653
[UNKNOWN]: I guess it was rather sickening to see things like that.
01:33:32.973 --> 01:33:35.715
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, but Your original question.
01:33:35.755 --> 01:33:36.155
[UNKNOWN]: What was it?
01:33:36.746 --> 01:33:44.689
[UNKNOWN]: Well, just the kind of hitting your stride and getting to a point where you actually felt like we may actually get this guy.
01:33:45.689 --> 01:33:53.732
[UNKNOWN]: So, okay, so we go up there, and Colonel Martinez is still in Spain, so there's another colonel I won't mention his name, but his street name was Pajamas.
01:33:54.393 --> 01:34:00.195
[UNKNOWN]: It's because when you go to doing him at three o'clock in the morning and ask for resources he'd come to the door and his silk pajamas in the barracks.
01:34:01.495 --> 01:34:05.796
[UNKNOWN]: And he, as soon as Harvey and I got there, he made no bones about it.
01:34:06.116 --> 01:34:07.036
[UNKNOWN]: I don't want you here.
01:34:07.156 --> 01:34:08.236
[UNKNOWN]: I didn't ask for you to be here.
01:34:08.256 --> 01:34:11.257
[UNKNOWN]: The only reason you're here is because the general call me and said, you're going to be here.
01:34:11.977 --> 01:34:13.257
[UNKNOWN]: So don't ask me for anything.
01:34:13.317 --> 01:34:14.258
[UNKNOWN]: Don't bother me.
01:34:14.858 --> 01:34:15.638
[UNKNOWN]: Stay out of my way.
01:34:15.658 --> 01:34:17.318
[UNKNOWN]: If I come walkin' in room, you need to leave.
01:34:17.338 --> 01:34:18.618
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, it's just that kind of attitude.
01:34:19.819 --> 01:34:23.519
[UNKNOWN]: And he was one of the most inept Colombian police officers ever met my life.
01:34:23.579 --> 01:34:24.960
[UNKNOWN]: One of the most inept police officers.
01:34:24.980 --> 01:34:26.260
[UNKNOWN]: I've never met anywhere in the world.
01:34:28.983 --> 01:34:41.473
[UNKNOWN]: We were in many, not very long, and they called us back to Bogotown of the embassy, and we met a guy named Jerry Boykin, this Colonel Jerry Boykin, who ultimately became the head of all special operators.
01:34:44.815 --> 01:34:53.101
[UNKNOWN]: The introduced us, said we've got some military resources, we're gonna put up there with you, called Delta Force.
01:34:53.622 --> 01:34:57.725
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, they're legends and their myths, you don't know if it's real or not, well, they have, they're real.
01:34:59.052 --> 01:35:06.637
[UNKNOWN]: So they come up to Medine and then a couple of days go by and they call us back to Bogotá again and say, we've got another group we're going to bring up here with you.
01:35:06.677 --> 01:35:07.877
[UNKNOWN]: It's called Siltim VI.
01:35:08.318 --> 01:35:09.398
[UNKNOWN]: Of course, everybody's heard of them.
01:35:12.900 --> 01:35:19.624
[UNKNOWN]: They brought assets of things that I've never seen or even dripped of.
01:35:22.946 --> 01:35:25.108
[UNKNOWN]: If they had been allowed to do their job,
01:35:26.509 --> 01:35:28.831
[UNKNOWN]: I'll tell you right now, Mike, I'm a fan girl who's just for a second.
01:35:29.112 --> 01:35:35.878
[UNKNOWN]: A bromance thing where I think our American operators, I've seen your capabilities.
01:35:35.898 --> 01:35:40.242
[UNKNOWN]: I've seen what you guys are willing to go through to get the job, get the mission completed.
01:35:40.902 --> 01:35:43.705
[UNKNOWN]: I think you guys are the very best in the world.
01:35:44.505 --> 01:35:49.130
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, to this day, we make it plain and every presentation we do, that if we're ever kidnapped,
01:35:49.907 --> 01:36:08.665
[UNKNOWN]: I want you to come and get, I want people like you to come and get because I've seen what you guys will do and can do, I'm just in awe of it, not like that, I like to think that I have a like-minded person, and we probably are in our thoughts and our beliefs, but I don't know that I'd ever have the stones to do the things that you guys do.
01:36:10.082 --> 01:36:28.993
[UNKNOWN]: So haven't said all that, and the bromance is over, if they would have allowed our operators to do their job, we honestly believe that we would have captured Pablo Escobar within three weeks, certainly not three months, not more than three months after his escape.
01:36:30.055 --> 01:36:38.323
[UNKNOWN]: But because this kernel continually roadblocked the green goes on everything we wanted to do, we'd go to home and the operators would come and get me or have you.
01:36:38.343 --> 01:36:39.845
[UNKNOWN]: And like, that's what we got a good intel.
01:36:40.585 --> 01:36:42.807
[UNKNOWN]: And we didn't ask how they got it, didn't care.
01:36:43.428 --> 01:36:48.433
[UNKNOWN]: You know, we need five cars and 15 guys to go hit a place.
01:36:49.354 --> 01:36:51.896
[UNKNOWN]: And, kernel, this is what we need.
01:36:52.036 --> 01:36:52.256
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:36:53.134 --> 01:36:54.215
[UNKNOWN]: You know, it'd be three o'clock in the morning.
01:36:54.235 --> 01:36:56.196
[UNKNOWN]: Well, you don't have search warrant.
01:36:56.356 --> 01:36:58.997
[UNKNOWN]: You know, we got revely at six o'clock or doing PT.
01:36:59.017 --> 01:37:00.378
[UNKNOWN]: We're going to do an inspection today.
01:37:00.918 --> 01:37:02.019
[UNKNOWN]: Come and see me after breakfast.
01:37:03.320 --> 01:37:08.102
[UNKNOWN]: Well, if you don't act on intel when you get it, three hours down a road is called history.
01:37:08.162 --> 01:37:09.243
[UNKNOWN]: It's no longer intelligence.
01:37:10.464 --> 01:37:16.247
[UNKNOWN]: So eventually you got to point where, and please remind me to come back to the rules of engagement.
01:37:17.945 --> 01:37:23.168
[UNKNOWN]: Um, it finally got to the point where the ambassador called Havier one night, you know, like 11 o'clock at night.
01:37:23.188 --> 01:37:25.189
[UNKNOWN]: And he's like, what in the hell are you guys doing up there?
01:37:25.209 --> 01:37:26.389
[UNKNOWN]: What are you in Murphy doing up there?
01:37:26.890 --> 01:37:28.070
[UNKNOWN]: You're getting all this information.
01:37:28.090 --> 01:37:33.973
[UNKNOWN]: I'm getting all these reports back from the CIA, from, from, from, from, uh, Colonel Boykins, uh, troops up there.
01:37:34.473 --> 01:37:36.915
[UNKNOWN]: Why are you guys not going out and getting the job done?
01:37:37.575 --> 01:37:39.216
[UNKNOWN]: And we told him it's just, Mr.
01:37:39.236 --> 01:37:40.917
[UNKNOWN]: Ambassador, this is what's going on.
01:37:40.937 --> 01:37:43.358
[UNKNOWN]: You know, we told you before it's coming up to the chain of command.
01:37:44.078 --> 01:37:45.479
[UNKNOWN]: But what we need is this guy to go.
01:37:46.533 --> 01:37:57.447
[UNKNOWN]: So what that ultimately led to is that our ambassador did go to the president of Columbia who got the head of the Columbia National Police and pajamas was reassigned, taken out of there.
01:37:57.787 --> 01:37:57.967
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:37:58.788 --> 01:38:02.253
[UNKNOWN]: The bad thing was, for Karl Martinez, as they forced him to come back from Spain.
01:38:03.658 --> 01:38:09.406
[UNKNOWN]: And there's a history, there's a long running history of hate between the Martinez family and the Escobar family.
01:38:09.426 --> 01:38:20.921
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, open hatred to where Colonel Martinez and his family lived in an apartment building in Bogota, all the other residents signed a petition asking them to move because they were afraid that Escobar was going to bomb the building and kill them.
01:38:22.215 --> 01:38:30.998
[UNKNOWN]: Um, I mean, just open hostilities where a public would put out message, I'm going to kill you, I'm going to torture your children, I'm going to kill your dog, which he was known for doing anyway.
01:38:31.018 --> 01:38:31.818
[UNKNOWN]: That's what he'd do to people.
01:38:32.038 --> 01:38:36.400
[UNKNOWN]: He just didn't just kill you, killed your family, your parents, and your pets.
01:38:38.760 --> 01:38:42.902
[UNKNOWN]: So there was the obstacle as to why this took 18 months.
01:38:45.470 --> 01:38:53.113
[UNKNOWN]: Also, the rules of engagement were that the green goes, our screen goes were not allowed to leave the police base up there.
01:38:53.934 --> 01:39:02.857
[UNKNOWN]: Now they did let the operator set up some surveillance posts up at the prison because some of the equipment they had just phenomenal surveillance equipment.
01:39:02.877 --> 01:39:07.319
[UNKNOWN]: I'm just going to leave it that because you know better not to, but I'd never seen things like that.
01:39:11.535 --> 01:39:12.956
[UNKNOWN]: They did it for our own safety.
01:39:13.176 --> 01:39:15.298
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, you see me, I'm English Irish heritage.
01:39:15.338 --> 01:39:16.679
[UNKNOWN]: I'm about as a white as you get, right?
01:39:17.019 --> 01:39:18.720
[UNKNOWN]: I don't blend into a Latino country.
01:39:18.760 --> 01:39:19.861
[UNKNOWN]: I stick out like a sore thumb.
01:39:19.901 --> 01:39:20.641
[UNKNOWN]: I'm six, two.
01:39:21.102 --> 01:39:22.583
[UNKNOWN]: I got light skin, light colored eyes.
01:39:22.623 --> 01:39:23.964
[UNKNOWN]: When I had hair, it was light brown.
01:39:24.004 --> 01:39:25.084
[UNKNOWN]: I just kind of stick out.
01:39:31.489 --> 01:39:34.931
[UNKNOWN]: How many are you guys are military?
01:39:35.191 --> 01:39:36.032
[UNKNOWN]: And you follow orders.
01:39:37.422 --> 01:39:40.283
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, I got together and said, we cannot do our job.
01:39:40.303 --> 01:39:40.863
[UNKNOWN]: That would be weird.
01:39:41.283 --> 01:39:49.866
[UNKNOWN]: Just wasted space if we don't go out and leave the base and go out and be informed, go out and do surveillance, work with the guys on information.
01:39:49.886 --> 01:39:51.907
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, all the different things that you could do out in the field.
01:39:52.687 --> 01:39:59.069
[UNKNOWN]: And so we, and I know it sounds funny to say this, but we just kind of looked at those rules as just strong suggestions.
01:40:00.379 --> 01:40:03.021
[UNKNOWN]: You know, we broke policies, procedures, and rules every day.
01:40:03.041 --> 01:40:03.701
[UNKNOWN]: Hovering, and I did.
01:40:03.781 --> 01:40:04.642
[UNKNOWN]: We never broke the law.
01:40:04.942 --> 01:40:05.142
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:40:05.422 --> 01:40:07.464
[UNKNOWN]: So no law, since we had to stay in that base.
01:40:07.884 --> 01:40:09.425
[UNKNOWN]: It was the ambassador's law, but yeah.
01:40:10.385 --> 01:40:16.429
[UNKNOWN]: But then on top of that, you got the best operators in the world, and they won't go out and do what they do.
01:40:17.650 --> 01:40:22.633
[UNKNOWN]: On top of that, they wanted to make sure that none of us were anything that looked like military or police.
01:40:22.973 --> 01:40:25.835
[UNKNOWN]: So we all were jeans and polo shirts or t-shirts and tennis shoes.
01:40:30.765 --> 01:40:41.269
[UNKNOWN]: Um, we were not allowed to carry weapons openly, so you had to have something like these photographer safari vests that you've seen, you wear those and covers up your gun.
01:40:42.590 --> 01:40:44.090
[UNKNOWN]: We were not allowed to carry long guns.
01:40:45.231 --> 01:40:49.953
[UNKNOWN]: So we're going up against people that have glial, 7.62s, I mean, RPGs.
01:40:54.000 --> 01:41:00.605
[UNKNOWN]: Hangernades, I mean, they've got the armament, and we're carrying Smith and Miss and Model of 6.59, nine millimeters.
01:41:01.405 --> 01:41:04.587
[UNKNOWN]: And that Model 15 I talked about earlier, I had that strapped on my ankle.
01:41:06.068 --> 01:41:06.989
[UNKNOWN]: That's what you carry in.
01:41:07.309 --> 01:41:08.770
[UNKNOWN]: How do you go fight up?
01:41:09.391 --> 01:41:11.392
[UNKNOWN]: And no, make no mistake about this was a war.
01:41:11.432 --> 01:41:13.734
[UNKNOWN]: This wasn't just drug trafficking.
01:41:14.094 --> 01:41:14.754
[UNKNOWN]: This was a war.
01:41:15.175 --> 01:41:17.576
[UNKNOWN]: Pablo declared war against Columbia twice.
01:41:18.477 --> 01:41:20.899
[UNKNOWN]: And threatened to do it a third time until he was taken out.
01:41:21.632 --> 01:41:27.055
[UNKNOWN]: Do you think that without the U.S. involvement, Columbia would have ever captured him?
01:41:29.497 --> 01:41:30.937
[UNKNOWN]: The commitment was there.
01:41:31.598 --> 01:41:33.539
[UNKNOWN]: The urge to do it was there.
01:41:33.559 --> 01:41:37.541
[UNKNOWN]: Honestly, when I went to Columbia, I went with the act.
01:41:37.561 --> 01:41:42.504
[UNKNOWN]: Don't look climbing as I'd ever met as a DE agent or the ones I put in jail.
01:41:42.984 --> 01:41:50.189
[UNKNOWN]: And as long as it is to stereotype anybody, I stereotype that entire country, I thought this is nothing but a country of drug dealers.
01:41:50.995 --> 01:41:54.377
[UNKNOWN]: But what I found out when we got there is, man, I was completely wrong.
01:41:54.397 --> 01:42:00.440
[UNKNOWN]: That's one of the most beautiful places on earth, cloning people or proud people that are proud of their country.
01:42:01.080 --> 01:42:02.501
[UNKNOWN]: They want to do the right thing.
01:42:02.561 --> 01:42:03.661
[UNKNOWN]: They do do the right thing.
01:42:04.341 --> 01:42:07.443
[UNKNOWN]: If you go down there and act like an ugly American, they'll treat you like an ugly American.
01:42:07.643 --> 01:42:12.766
[UNKNOWN]: But if you go down there and try to get along, they'll be the most accepting people that I've ever dealt with.
01:42:13.006 --> 01:42:14.827
[UNKNOWN]: I've been to a lot of countries in the world, like you.
01:42:16.324 --> 01:42:19.526
[UNKNOWN]: A lot of countries don't want green goes there at all, and they weren't like that.
01:42:20.286 --> 01:42:23.088
[UNKNOWN]: But John was who I was, he didn't like us being there, but that was just one person.
01:42:24.229 --> 01:42:29.212
[UNKNOWN]: So I don't know, it's things could have been so much different.
01:42:30.992 --> 01:42:38.574
[UNKNOWN]: And if we had captured Pablo within the first three months, how many more people would still be alive in Colombia, if we hadn't gone that extra 15 months?
01:42:38.974 --> 01:42:40.414
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, let's chase in this jerk.
01:42:40.694 --> 01:42:40.914
[UNKNOWN]: Sure.
01:42:43.815 --> 01:42:59.298
[UNKNOWN]: I guess before you get into the final phase, can you walk through and just kind of bullet point the entire process of from when you got there until you actually captured him and just kind of quickly go down the chronological timeline
01:43:00.178 --> 01:43:04.440
[UNKNOWN]: building the prison, leaving it on his own escaping, just the whole back and forth.
01:43:04.700 --> 01:43:04.920
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
01:43:07.441 --> 01:43:20.046
[UNKNOWN]: Okay, so there's an attorney general in Columbia named Gustavo Degree, who came up with an idea of, they called it self-surrender and keep in mind that in Columbia, you know, here in the United States, our president, he selects our attorney general.
01:43:20.667 --> 01:43:27.029
[UNKNOWN]: In Columbia, they elect their president, but then they elect their attorney general, so there's a lot of autonomy between the two.
01:43:27.049 --> 01:43:27.530
[UNKNOWN]: There's no,
01:43:28.603 --> 01:43:30.264
[UNKNOWN]: In this case, there was no loyalty to each other.
01:43:30.804 --> 01:43:32.465
[UNKNOWN]: There was a work in relationship with no loyalty.
01:43:33.366 --> 01:43:36.547
[UNKNOWN]: And Gustav with a grief was a very intelligent and a been educated in the United States.
01:43:36.787 --> 01:43:38.408
[UNKNOWN]: But he came up with this idea of self-surrender.
01:43:38.889 --> 01:43:45.432
[UNKNOWN]: And the premise is, you come in and plead to one felony of your choosing and then exchange.
01:43:45.912 --> 01:43:47.113
[UNKNOWN]: We will sit in due to prison.
01:43:48.014 --> 01:43:56.698
[UNKNOWN]: We will absolve you of every other crime you committed in your life to conclude murder, and then after you
01:43:58.590 --> 01:43:59.690
[UNKNOWN]: You know, you no longer want it.
01:44:00.791 --> 01:44:02.491
[UNKNOWN]: Do you know what his strategy was with that?
01:44:03.191 --> 01:44:05.272
[UNKNOWN]: Trying to stop the violence was platforming.
01:44:05.972 --> 01:44:11.854
[UNKNOWN]: And keep in mind, too, that's what says our Gavaria, who eventually became the president of Columbia.
01:44:12.174 --> 01:44:14.695
[UNKNOWN]: That was just platforming, too, was to stop the drug violence.
01:44:16.132 --> 01:44:21.536
[UNKNOWN]: So, Pablo heard about this and he thought, well, you know, sounds too good to be true, doesn't it?
01:44:22.196 --> 01:44:29.561
[UNKNOWN]: So what he did is he got some of his underlinks to call in to the Attorney General's office, and say, hey, I want to take advantage of this self-surrender program.
01:44:30.242 --> 01:44:34.024
[UNKNOWN]: And it worked, you know, just the grief lived up to what he said.
01:44:35.646 --> 01:44:37.227
[UNKNOWN]: So finally, Pablo calls him and says,
01:44:38.533 --> 01:44:38.733
[UNKNOWN]: Mr.
01:44:38.753 --> 01:44:42.936
[UNKNOWN]: Degree, if I heard what you're doing, I think it's an admirable thing for our country.
01:44:43.036 --> 01:44:47.078
[UNKNOWN]: And I know a lot of people think I'm the devil and the evil person in this country.
01:44:47.158 --> 01:44:52.301
[UNKNOWN]: I'm not, I'm just a proud Colombian, but I'd like to take advantage of your program.
01:44:52.961 --> 01:44:55.423
[UNKNOWN]: And he's, oh, Degree, just falling over, thank you.
01:44:55.443 --> 01:44:58.324
[UNKNOWN]: So much Mr. Escobar, it's going to be so good for our country.
01:44:58.825 --> 01:45:04.468
[UNKNOWN]: Absolutely, you just come on in and we'll talk about, he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I got a couple stipulations.
01:45:04.488 --> 01:45:05.429
[UNKNOWN]: I'd like to add onto this.
01:45:06.495 --> 01:45:17.267
[UNKNOWN]: He said, so the crime I'm going to commit, or plea guilty to, is unknowingly participating in the transportation of a few hundred kilos of cocaine, because yeah, it was in the car.
01:45:17.307 --> 01:45:20.891
[UNKNOWN]: I just didn't know it was in there, so I guess I'm guilty because I was in the car.
01:45:21.832 --> 01:45:25.155
[UNKNOWN]: which we all know is ridiculous and grease it.
01:45:25.175 --> 01:45:25.435
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
01:45:26.496 --> 01:45:35.464
[UNKNOWN]: He said, well, listen, when I get sentenced, what I want to do first is I want to build my own prison because I've got a lot of enemies in this country.
01:45:35.924 --> 01:45:40.408
[UNKNOWN]: A lot of people around the world want to kill me, the Cali Cartel guys, the Israelis, all these people want to kill me.
01:45:41.128 --> 01:45:46.613
[UNKNOWN]: And so I want to build a prison that I will feel safe and that nobody can come and get me there.
01:45:47.630 --> 01:45:55.433
[UNKNOWN]: And he said, okay, and he said, you know what, I'll pay for it, five million dollars, because I don't want the citizens of Columbia to have to bear this tax burden, okay?
01:45:56.353 --> 01:46:01.975
[UNKNOWN]: He says, well, now my fellow prisoners, I'm going to handpick all of them because they got to be people that I trust.
01:46:02.575 --> 01:46:06.176
[UNKNOWN]: I can't have somebody some spots, sneak in here and kill me in my sleep.
01:46:06.957 --> 01:46:07.657
[UNKNOWN]: The grease said, okay.
01:46:08.797 --> 01:46:12.278
[UNKNOWN]: He said, the guards in the prison, you know what?
01:46:12.418 --> 01:46:18.100
[UNKNOWN]: That's another tax burden on our citizens, and I represent the poor people here, so I'm gonna pay their salaries.
01:46:18.960 --> 01:46:22.262
[UNKNOWN]: I wonder who are you loyal to the person to write your check, right?
01:46:23.262 --> 01:46:29.644
[UNKNOWN]: He said, now, you know, there's pesky green goes in the Colombian police, the Colombian military, all those people wanna kill me.
01:46:30.684 --> 01:46:37.787
[UNKNOWN]: I wanna perimeter set up so that they cannot come within two miles of the perimeter of this prison, because I don't wanna sneak in in here and kill me, my sleep either.
01:46:38.815 --> 01:46:44.757
[UNKNOWN]: And the grief said, OK, and I don't know what you're thinking in terms of a prison sentence, but I'm going to do five years.
01:46:46.037 --> 01:46:46.877
[UNKNOWN]: OK, that sounds good.
01:46:48.138 --> 01:46:57.180
[UNKNOWN]: And by the way, all my assets, those billions and billions of dollars of assets I've got, I'm keeping those.
01:46:58.481 --> 01:46:59.421
[UNKNOWN]: And the grief said, OK.
01:47:00.561 --> 01:47:05.643
[UNKNOWN]: So this is the worst plea agreement, plea bargain deal, in the history of the world.
01:47:06.665 --> 01:47:09.527
[UNKNOWN]: So Pablo, the day comes along, that first week I'm in Columbia.
01:47:10.407 --> 01:47:11.888
[UNKNOWN]: Hover you're happy to be in Medine that day.
01:47:11.908 --> 01:47:16.011
[UNKNOWN]: It gets the call from the pastor's office, it gets your butt out of Medine immediately.
01:47:16.531 --> 01:47:17.552
[UNKNOWN]: There's something happening today.
01:47:18.192 --> 01:47:19.773
[UNKNOWN]: It's Pablo, or Hover you're comes back.
01:47:19.833 --> 01:47:21.575
[UNKNOWN]: And of course, it's all over the news.
01:47:21.595 --> 01:47:23.876
[UNKNOWN]: They have this big bright yellow helicopter coming in.
01:47:23.896 --> 01:47:25.417
[UNKNOWN]: It looks like big birds flown in.
01:47:26.117 --> 01:47:29.380
[UNKNOWN]: And there it comes Pablo, strolling out in front of all the cameras.
01:47:29.400 --> 01:47:30.360
[UNKNOWN]: It's going to surrender.
01:47:31.241 --> 01:47:34.002
[UNKNOWN]: And you know he's got with him, a Catholic priest.
01:47:35.150 --> 01:47:38.492
[UNKNOWN]: Father, Raphael, Horos, Garcia, I think is his name.
01:47:39.073 --> 01:47:42.935
[UNKNOWN]: He was one of the main paris in the slums of Medine, Columbia.
01:47:44.997 --> 01:47:54.604
[UNKNOWN]: And that's kind of a big deal because he used to do this minute with God radio podcast every day, and he would say, well, I want to podcast back down, but it's just a radio announcement.
01:47:55.184 --> 01:47:57.285
[UNKNOWN]: And he would say that Pablo Escobar is not a bad man.
01:47:57.566 --> 01:47:59.907
[UNKNOWN]: It's because all the money he probably was going to be in church.
01:48:01.068 --> 01:48:02.069
[UNKNOWN]: So anyway, they fly off.
01:48:04.330 --> 01:48:08.112
[UNKNOWN]: I'm thinking, that's a good thing because Pablo Escobar just surrendered.
01:48:08.132 --> 01:48:13.356
[UNKNOWN]: This guy, this response, we're all as cocaine production and distribution, but what I'm seeing in the D.A.
01:48:13.436 --> 01:48:16.758
[UNKNOWN]: office and then throughout the embassy is everybody's pissed off.
01:48:16.898 --> 01:48:18.739
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, they are really ticked off about this.
01:48:19.600 --> 01:48:22.382
[UNKNOWN]: And I finally go to Gary and I'm like, what am I missing here?
01:48:22.402 --> 01:48:24.503
[UNKNOWN]: He said, you don't know, Murphy, you're no good country.
01:48:24.543 --> 01:48:25.604
[UNKNOWN]: You haven't been here a week yet.
01:48:26.924 --> 01:48:29.926
[UNKNOWN]: You don't know how many police officers have been killed because of this one man.
01:48:29.946 --> 01:48:32.668
[UNKNOWN]: How many innocent people have died because of Pablo Escobar?
01:48:34.452 --> 01:48:45.904
[UNKNOWN]: the sacrifices that have been made by the Columbia National Police and the Columbia Military, and now for them just to give him this deal, this sweet deal, so you understand that, you understand why everybody's ticked off.
01:48:47.485 --> 01:48:48.426
[UNKNOWN]: Pablo is in that prison.
01:48:48.486 --> 01:48:50.788
[UNKNOWN]: Do you think he stopped dealing cocaine, why was there?
01:48:51.709 --> 01:48:54.873
[UNKNOWN]: You know he didn't, and if you think about this,
01:48:56.245 --> 01:49:01.108
[UNKNOWN]: where before he had five hundred secario's protectening, who's protecting him now in prison?
01:49:01.328 --> 01:49:02.189
[UNKNOWN]: The entire government.
01:49:02.549 --> 01:49:03.189
[UNKNOWN]: Exactly.
01:49:03.730 --> 01:49:05.951
[UNKNOWN]: So, if you talk about cutting your overhead, yeah.
01:49:06.812 --> 01:49:17.579
[UNKNOWN]: What he did is he required of all his members of his organization that if you're going to ship a cook a load of cocaine, you pay me a $400,000 or a war tax or I get part of the load.
01:49:18.319 --> 01:49:19.700
[UNKNOWN]: And they did because they were afraid of him.
01:49:21.614 --> 01:49:28.776
[UNKNOWN]: This continued at the point where Pablo, one of the things we found in his prison was these homemade arm bands.
01:49:28.796 --> 01:49:47.301
[UNKNOWN]: So, living in Columbia, if you were a person of wealth or a high-ranking member of the government, you had a protection detail, and the press will be in the middle car, you'd have front car and rear car of guards, and, of course, you know, politicians think your guards should wear coats and ties because that makes you bulletproof, go figure, right?
01:49:50.298 --> 01:49:57.663
[UNKNOWN]: And so these protection details, as you're running on the road, they got their wind as rolled down and they've got the barrels of the long guns hanging out they're ready to engage.
01:49:57.843 --> 01:50:05.028
[UNKNOWN]: It was a very dangerous, because you'd see them, especially in Bogota, and my wife and I were out if we saw one coming, I'd just pull over, let them go.
01:50:05.668 --> 01:50:09.671
[UNKNOWN]: because one time they would motion with the barrel for you to back away and if you didn't they'd open up on you.
01:50:10.251 --> 01:50:13.234
[UNKNOWN]: And they didn't stop, they'd help you afterwards because they're going to get their principal safety, right?
01:50:14.214 --> 01:50:27.644
[UNKNOWN]: And so what they would do is there was always police roadblocks and military roadblocks around especially around Bogotá because of the all the insurgent actions of ELAN, M19, FARC, the different communist factions that are out there in socialist groups,
01:50:28.864 --> 01:50:38.396
[UNKNOWN]: And so these guys were where these arm bands, and it would have either like C&P for Columbia National Police or Columbia Military insignia, or whatever security surface it was.
01:50:38.436 --> 01:50:43.162
[UNKNOWN]: And that way the roadblocks would see them, and they'd most of them on through, probably knew this.
01:50:43.182 --> 01:50:46.606
[UNKNOWN]: So he made his own arm bands, and eventually got to the point where he'd say,
01:50:47.827 --> 01:51:10.951
[UNKNOWN]: You know, I heard they open a new restaurant up in the pub lot of section of Medine which is the wealthy section of town that I'd like to go to or there's there's two soccer teams I've been dying to see them play because he was in the habit of soccer fan or You know, let's go the whole house tonight guys what you'd say we just go out and party for a while or You know, I had seen the family and well, I think I'll go spend a long weekend with my wife and children or
01:51:12.061 --> 01:51:14.563
[UNKNOWN]: I want to go any place I want to because I'm Pablo Escobar.
01:51:15.304 --> 01:51:18.686
[UNKNOWN]: They'd pull the cars up, the guys would put the arm bands on, and off to town they went.
01:51:19.587 --> 01:51:23.931
[UNKNOWN]: So he was just coming and going, is he pleased, is that proverbial revolving door, you know?
01:51:25.732 --> 01:51:32.037
[UNKNOWN]: Then, after it's getting close to the end of a year, and his cigars are always instigating.
01:51:32.057 --> 01:51:36.581
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, these are stone-cold murderers, killers, and they're always trying to instigate things.
01:51:36.881 --> 01:51:38.603
[UNKNOWN]: Well, they found a stash of money.
01:51:39.743 --> 01:51:42.744
[UNKNOWN]: that belonged to Kiko Moncata and Fernando Galliano.
01:51:42.764 --> 01:51:45.665
[UNKNOWN]: That's two of Pablo's primary lieutenant's within the Mediincartel.
01:51:46.205 --> 01:51:47.926
[UNKNOWN]: Pablo grew up with Kiko Moncata.
01:51:48.146 --> 01:51:49.126
[UNKNOWN]: They were childhood friends.
01:51:50.766 --> 01:51:54.848
[UNKNOWN]: The amount of money, I've still got a copy of the report that came in from the club.
01:51:54.868 --> 01:51:57.429
[UNKNOWN]: And the national police said it was $23 million.
01:51:58.529 --> 01:52:00.509
[UNKNOWN]: It's hard to believe this, that much money.
01:52:00.570 --> 01:52:05.091
[UNKNOWN]: I just, I was a public servant, my whole career.
01:52:05.111 --> 01:52:07.372
[UNKNOWN]: I can't fathom what $23 million is.
01:52:09.852 --> 01:52:13.457
[UNKNOWN]: But they brought it in, and they found it hidden in a cave, and it had been shrink-wrapped.
01:52:14.058 --> 01:52:19.065
[UNKNOWN]: And now the shrink-wrapped had let go, had, you know, become unsealed, and moisture, and air had gotten in there.
01:52:19.726 --> 01:52:24.173
[UNKNOWN]: And so even if it's ten million dollars, it's rotted.
01:52:25.502 --> 01:52:26.623
[UNKNOWN]: That's right, there's heartbreak.
01:52:28.124 --> 01:52:32.527
[UNKNOWN]: And so what the scariers come down and they're like, look here, boss.
01:52:33.248 --> 01:52:34.569
[UNKNOWN]: You're two favorite latinists.
01:52:34.849 --> 01:52:35.810
[UNKNOWN]: They've been holding out on you.
01:52:36.230 --> 01:52:42.414
[UNKNOWN]: You're fronting yourself out in the media and to the government as a representative of the poor people of this country.
01:52:43.295 --> 01:52:47.158
[UNKNOWN]: And you're two of your latinists are screwing over you.
01:52:47.238 --> 01:52:51.001
[UNKNOWN]: You've been embarrassed because you ran for Congress and got kicked out and now you're in prison.
01:52:51.581 --> 01:52:52.842
[UNKNOWN]: And look what these guys are doing.
01:52:54.972 --> 01:52:57.513
[UNKNOWN]: Apollo starts getting upset, you know, and they're there getting him on.
01:52:58.773 --> 01:53:00.934
[UNKNOWN]: And finally, we found this out from an informant later.
01:53:01.494 --> 01:53:04.855
[UNKNOWN]: He says, call, kick-o, and find, tell them to come on up here.
01:53:05.296 --> 01:53:07.976
[UNKNOWN]: No need to bring protection details, we're not risk-going at the party.
01:53:07.996 --> 01:53:13.238
[UNKNOWN]: We have a cookout, we have some girls come up, have some marioches, whatever, and just have a little fun.
01:53:13.498 --> 01:53:14.999
[UNKNOWN]: We're not going to talk about business at all.
01:53:15.379 --> 01:53:16.900
[UNKNOWN]: So they show up at that, their body guards.
01:53:16.920 --> 01:53:20.761
[UNKNOWN]: They come walking in the office or in the room where Pablo is, and there's the money.
01:53:21.630 --> 01:53:39.876
[UNKNOWN]: And immediately they look at Pablo and the this informant describes this murderous look on Pablo's face and Kiko starts saying listen it's not what you think yes that's our money honestly would forgotten about it it's it was buried in a cave we're not holding out on you and if you think about it
01:53:41.765 --> 01:53:45.327
[UNKNOWN]: Moisture and air are not going to rot paper in a week's time.
01:53:45.367 --> 01:53:48.269
[UNKNOWN]: That's going to take months if not years to do that, right?
01:53:48.949 --> 01:53:53.732
[UNKNOWN]: So we believe that they were probably telling the truth, but the scarios are egg and Pablo.
01:53:54.012 --> 01:53:55.133
[UNKNOWN]: They're holding that on Pablo.
01:53:55.713 --> 01:53:58.295
[UNKNOWN]: They're cheating you, they're treating you like a fool.
01:53:58.875 --> 01:54:02.097
[UNKNOWN]: It just things to really take him off.
01:54:02.137 --> 01:54:06.579
[UNKNOWN]: Finally, Pablo gets so in sense, he grabs a stick and he beats his childhood, friend and death.
01:54:07.520 --> 01:54:09.941
[UNKNOWN]: And other scarios, they jump off for nine to a gallon
01:54:12.640 --> 01:54:13.641
[UNKNOWN]: bodies were never found.
01:54:13.901 --> 01:54:15.682
[UNKNOWN]: Pieces of the bodies were mailed to the families.
01:54:15.722 --> 01:54:16.462
[UNKNOWN]: He wanted money.
01:54:17.062 --> 01:54:26.187
[UNKNOWN]: But then after that happened, Pablo instructed to Chicago's to go out and kill anybody associated with Kiko and Fernando.
01:54:26.207 --> 01:54:34.171
[UNKNOWN]: Their family members, their body guards, anybody that's in there part of the organization, take all their assets that you can find, whatever you can find.
01:54:35.372 --> 01:54:36.652
[UNKNOWN]: That's how ruthless the sky is.
01:54:37.613 --> 01:54:40.875
[UNKNOWN]: Well, word eventually gets back to us through this
01:54:43.491 --> 01:54:50.537
[UNKNOWN]: So we take it, we run it up to the chain and finally go to the president of Columbia.
01:54:51.278 --> 01:54:53.400
[UNKNOWN]: So Mr. President, we know what happened.
01:54:54.341 --> 01:55:02.048
[UNKNOWN]: You go in there and put that man in a real prison and make him a prisoner of the country of Columbia, or this is probably going to get leaked to the press.
01:55:04.487 --> 01:55:11.558
[UNKNOWN]: So the president, and less than a day, they send a deputy minister of justice, accounting, Mendoza.
01:55:12.119 --> 01:55:19.070
[UNKNOWN]: And this kid's only like 25 years old with a military detail with, I think it was either major or car one charge.
01:55:19.803 --> 01:55:22.424
[UNKNOWN]: And they said, go up there and get Pablo, tell him we're going to use the roots.
01:55:22.444 --> 01:55:29.608
[UNKNOWN]: We're going to tell him we're going to put him temporarily in a different prison so we can reinforce his security of his prison and then we'll put him back in there.
01:55:29.749 --> 01:55:30.829
[UNKNOWN]: Well, he's not that stupid.
01:55:31.670 --> 01:55:37.833
[UNKNOWN]: So they get up there outside the prison and Mendoza that this young kid, the deputy minister, Justice, looks over to Carlos.
01:55:37.853 --> 01:55:38.373
[UNKNOWN]: This is Carl.
01:55:38.493 --> 01:55:39.754
[UNKNOWN]: Go get him.
01:55:39.794 --> 01:55:40.855
[UNKNOWN]: Kurt looks at Mendoza.
01:55:41.395 --> 01:55:42.796
[UNKNOWN]: President didn't tell me to go in there.
01:55:42.816 --> 01:55:43.716
[UNKNOWN]: He told you to go in there.
01:55:43.736 --> 01:55:44.237
[UNKNOWN]: You go get him.
01:55:44.257 --> 01:55:45.037
[UNKNOWN]: I'm not going in there.
01:55:45.717 --> 01:55:46.578
[UNKNOWN]: So this kid does.
01:55:49.495 --> 01:55:57.161
[UNKNOWN]: Idealistic big cajonas goes in there and tells Pablo this is what's happening and of course they take him hostage.
01:55:58.281 --> 01:56:02.424
[UNKNOWN]: The Colonel calls for reinforcements, Pablo is trying to call the President of Columbia.
01:56:02.484 --> 01:56:03.345
[UNKNOWN]: He won't answer his calls.
01:56:03.365 --> 01:56:05.567
[UNKNOWN]: He hasn't passed, now he won't.
01:56:07.157 --> 01:56:18.809
[UNKNOWN]: So they bring in a specialized group that come to Copas, they launch an operation, the go-in, several of Pablo's guards around the prison were killed, no good guys were injured, and Mendoza came out a lot of the Copas saved you.
01:56:18.889 --> 01:56:20.270
[UNKNOWN]: That's a miracle right there.
01:56:21.211 --> 01:56:26.056
[UNKNOWN]: So that's what led to Pablo's walking out the backside of that prison.
01:56:27.145 --> 01:56:45.609
[UNKNOWN]: One of the things that Havier, you know, we kind of still are very interested in Colombian and things that go on down there, especially with the new president and position down there, and the old fart commander finally got voted out, and people keep calling us through our agent to do these documentaries about Pablo Vesco-Barrant.
01:56:45.629 --> 01:56:49.709
[UNKNOWN]: It's, I don't know how many documentaries you can do in the same person, but, you know, they pay you.
01:56:49.749 --> 01:56:51.130
[UNKNOWN]: So, I don't tell the story.
01:56:53.638 --> 01:56:56.400
[UNKNOWN]: Pablo, our hobbyer was doing some stuff with a group down there.
01:56:56.760 --> 01:57:00.582
[UNKNOWN]: There was just one photographer that went up there for a media outlet.
01:57:00.922 --> 01:57:11.929
[UNKNOWN]: When a reporter, Pablo was going to be pulled out of prison, and he says that when he got up to the gate, all these news crews were there and everything, and he thought, well, you know, I want to do something different.
01:57:12.349 --> 01:57:17.192
[UNKNOWN]: So he takes it upon himself and somehow works his way around to the back of the prison, and this is a very mountainous area.
01:57:18.052 --> 01:57:22.034
[UNKNOWN]: And as he comes around there, he runs into Pablo and some of his carriers making their
01:57:23.155 --> 01:57:26.437
[UNKNOWN]: And his story was that he just laid his camera down and said, Paul, please don't kill me.
01:57:27.097 --> 01:57:30.860
[UNKNOWN]: I'm just a reporter, a photographer, everybody's the front day.
01:57:30.880 --> 01:57:33.501
[UNKNOWN]: I thought I'd just come around back and see if I could find out anything different.
01:57:34.842 --> 01:57:37.644
[UNKNOWN]: Pablo reportedly told him, pick up your camera and take my picture.
01:57:37.684 --> 01:57:39.105
[UNKNOWN]: It's a picture of a dad-man walking.
01:57:40.185 --> 01:57:51.372
[UNKNOWN]: And so the photographer has recently passed away and there's some organizations down there that are trying to overcome the mistake of Pablo Escobar because it's just become a tourist.
01:57:52.589 --> 01:57:56.973
[UNKNOWN]: I guess a traction, I don't know if that's what you call you, you can do these narco tours when you go down there.
01:57:57.614 --> 01:58:01.998
[UNKNOWN]: And they, you know, the government of Columbia wants to move on past that because it does have a very violent history.
01:58:03.489 --> 01:58:22.325
[UNKNOWN]: uh... so when he patlin this photographer passed away hobby was talking to one group and he was able to negotiate a little bit trade with some of the things that we had with them and so we now have three pictures of Pablo escaping out back the prison at that photographer took that we show in our when we do our keynote presentations now and that's incredible
01:58:22.825 --> 01:58:32.896
[UNKNOWN]: So what that and then what that led to is when Pablo escaped and next day is when Hobbier and I moved up to Medi and for the next 18 months live there until Pablo was killed in December 93.
01:58:33.476 --> 01:58:37.741
[UNKNOWN]: But while we're in Mediine, not only you know, not only we violate and the ambassador's rules,
01:58:39.633 --> 01:58:41.634
[UNKNOWN]: We're also writing reports on everything we're doing.
01:58:41.794 --> 01:58:45.276
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, we're going out on the huge and ships on raids with the Colombian National Police.
01:58:45.296 --> 01:58:48.078
[UNKNOWN]: You're the only gringo out there with your little nine millimetre.
01:58:48.098 --> 01:58:54.341
[UNKNOWN]: You know, you can compute people, and there's shooting rifles in the 7.62 rounds at you.
01:58:55.642 --> 01:58:57.143
[UNKNOWN]: But everything that we did, we reported.
01:58:57.303 --> 01:59:03.607
[UNKNOWN]: There were times I might write 10 to 12 cables through the embassy to DEA headquarters in Washington.
01:59:03.627 --> 01:59:07.049
[UNKNOWN]: Of course, there's going to state department, everybody else, especially the CIA.
01:59:09.637 --> 01:59:10.938
[UNKNOWN]: And of course they faster saw that.
01:59:11.638 --> 01:59:16.460
[UNKNOWN]: So how would I have that information if I was sitting on my butt back into base, right?
01:59:16.480 --> 01:59:19.021
[UNKNOWN]: Because we didn't hide what our activities were.
01:59:19.041 --> 01:59:20.521
[UNKNOWN]: It's everybody knew what we were doing.
01:59:21.982 --> 01:59:37.808
[UNKNOWN]: Towards the end of that 18 months, probably at month 16, something like that, you know in an embassy they have the weekly country team meetings in the priority for the entire embassy was probably asking for on a many cartel.
01:59:38.972 --> 01:59:43.414
[UNKNOWN]: So, if I were in the embassy, when the country team meeting was going on, we had to go.
01:59:44.134 --> 01:59:46.595
[UNKNOWN]: And that was the first topic, you know, brief us on what you're doing.
01:59:47.235 --> 01:59:48.375
[UNKNOWN]: And so, we'd laid everything out.
01:59:48.435 --> 01:59:59.519
[UNKNOWN]: Well, this one I went to, and it's not fun, because then you have to sit and listen to agriculture talk about how many hectares of soybeans the clumb is going to produce this year, and things that I just really don't care about.
01:59:59.799 --> 02:00:01.920
[UNKNOWN]: Because you had a million other things that you needed to be doing.
02:00:03.341 --> 02:00:07.002
[UNKNOWN]: And so, that one time, the Deputy Chief of Mission, who's the number two guy,
02:00:08.807 --> 02:00:13.531
[UNKNOWN]: was the ambassador wasn't there and he said we're breaking up the meeting he says Murphy's Day I need to talk to you.
02:00:14.512 --> 02:00:15.753
[UNKNOWN]: I think well that's never good.
02:00:16.773 --> 02:00:19.796
[UNKNOWN]: So the ambassador was a retired naval commander.
02:00:20.836 --> 02:00:22.598
[UNKNOWN]: Can do kind of guy you'd want to work for him.
02:00:23.258 --> 02:00:24.159
[UNKNOWN]: We love working for him.
02:00:25.200 --> 02:00:29.063
[UNKNOWN]: The DCM Deputy Chief Emission was a career state department.
02:00:32.369 --> 02:00:32.909
[UNKNOWN]: you understand.
02:00:32.990 --> 02:00:35.013
[UNKNOWN]: I'm not going to I don't want to badmouth state.
02:00:35.914 --> 02:00:36.475
[UNKNOWN]: It's different.
02:00:37.337 --> 02:00:43.587
[UNKNOWN]: And so he said he said Steve, we're getting information that you and Harvey are going outside the perimeter of that in violation of the rules of engagement.
02:00:43.607 --> 02:00:44.409
[UNKNOWN]: We set for you guys.
02:00:44.609 --> 02:00:45.130
[UNKNOWN]: Are you doing it?
02:00:45.855 --> 02:00:46.795
[UNKNOWN]: But you're going outside the wire.
02:00:46.815 --> 02:00:55.157
[UNKNOWN]: I said, well, boss, you know, we fly in, if we fly in a rear or an egg row, that's outside the city of Medellin, so they send a gunship for us.
02:00:55.177 --> 02:01:02.019
[UNKNOWN]: So yeah, technically we're outside the wire, and they fly us in, and I'm trying to play word games, and he's a lot smarter than me, and he's like knock it off.
02:01:02.639 --> 02:01:03.399
[UNKNOWN]: I know what you're doing.
02:01:04.159 --> 02:01:08.160
[UNKNOWN]: And somebody, some green go, was ratten us out.
02:01:09.321 --> 02:01:14.402
[UNKNOWN]: Not that we're doing anything illegal, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't on an operator, because we got along great with those guys.
02:01:15.848 --> 02:01:21.672
[UNKNOWN]: Then I said, so he said, well, listen, if you continue to do it, I'm going to kick you out of the country.
02:01:22.012 --> 02:01:25.495
[UNKNOWN]: And you know, the ambassador is the president's representative, so he has the authority to do that.
02:01:26.015 --> 02:01:27.036
[UNKNOWN]: I said, okay, boss, we got you.
02:01:28.157 --> 02:01:28.737
[UNKNOWN]: So, okay.
02:01:29.437 --> 02:01:39.805
[UNKNOWN]: So, a mother too goes by and I get called into another country team and the DCM's in charge, and he says, Murphy's stay, like a dog, you know, and so I'm sitting there, this is not going to be good.
02:01:41.137 --> 02:01:42.938
[UNKNOWN]: And he said, I was getting the same reports.
02:01:43.278 --> 02:01:44.918
[UNKNOWN]: He said, did you not understand my structure first?
02:01:44.958 --> 02:01:45.918
[UNKNOWN]: I go through all that.
02:01:46.419 --> 02:01:47.739
[UNKNOWN]: And I played word games with him again.
02:01:47.759 --> 02:01:48.699
[UNKNOWN]: He just stopped.
02:01:50.340 --> 02:01:51.180
[UNKNOWN]: Make no misunderstanding.
02:01:51.200 --> 02:01:53.141
[UNKNOWN]: I want you to completely understand what I'm getting ready to tell you.
02:01:53.701 --> 02:01:58.402
[UNKNOWN]: The next time I get a rapport to that, you will be on the next day's American Airlines flight.
02:01:58.542 --> 02:01:59.382
[UNKNOWN]: Back to Miami.
02:02:00.303 --> 02:02:02.863
[UNKNOWN]: Your wife will file a shortly after in your household goods.
02:02:02.903 --> 02:02:04.904
[UNKNOWN]: I'll transfer those up to you about six months.
02:02:05.484 --> 02:02:07.165
[UNKNOWN]: I will kick you out of this country permanently.
02:02:07.785 --> 02:02:08.225
[UNKNOWN]: We straight.
02:02:09.443 --> 02:02:30.025
[UNKNOWN]: got it all second to boost ball second to boost you know so I go back to have you and I'm like well here's what he said so you stop for two days and then you go back to do your job December 2nd night oh prior during the same time it got to the point where we weren't collecting any intel at all we weren't getting any information we'd set up a 1-800-tip line
02:02:31.246 --> 02:02:36.809
[UNKNOWN]: there in Columbia, offering a $5 million reward for information leading to the capture or death of Pablo Escobar.
02:02:37.370 --> 02:02:41.432
[UNKNOWN]: All that, and I mean, it was just days were dragging out.
02:02:41.472 --> 02:02:44.294
[UNKNOWN]: There were no operations to go out on none of that stuff.
02:02:45.434 --> 02:02:48.776
[UNKNOWN]: And so how do you know, I kind of got to feel sorry for ourselves?
02:02:49.036 --> 02:02:51.858
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, I just don't think just letting surrender again.
02:02:52.678 --> 02:02:53.599
[UNKNOWN]: And it's the president.
02:02:56.950 --> 02:02:59.152
[UNKNOWN]: the bomb, the hell the bombing stopped that thing.
02:02:59.172 --> 02:02:59.752
[UNKNOWN]: I keep forgetting.
02:03:00.573 --> 02:03:06.578
[UNKNOWN]: So, I mean, I was just like, you know, why don't they just let him surrender, then go back up in that custom built prison.
02:03:06.598 --> 02:03:07.439
[UNKNOWN]: It was a country club.
02:03:07.639 --> 02:03:09.420
[UNKNOWN]: He wasn't a prison, it was a joke, so what it was.
02:03:10.701 --> 02:03:15.505
[UNKNOWN]: And all of a sudden, you see your colleagues come back in body bags.
02:03:16.706 --> 02:03:25.193
[UNKNOWN]: And boy, I feel pretty sure you've probably experienced that to where all those self-pity feelings are like, what is wrong with you?
02:03:26.417 --> 02:03:29.658
[UNKNOWN]: but back to work here and get back on the mission and do your job.
02:03:30.939 --> 02:03:32.640
[UNKNOWN]: So, and I don't think that was burnout.
02:03:32.660 --> 02:03:35.861
[UNKNOWN]: I think it was just boredom and feeling sorry for ourselves.
02:03:36.601 --> 02:03:37.502
[UNKNOWN]: And that's never good.
02:03:38.942 --> 02:03:45.945
[UNKNOWN]: But one thing I like to point out here is bad is that self-surrender program was that plea bargain which is horrible.
02:03:48.223 --> 02:03:50.864
[UNKNOWN]: President Gaviria ran on a platform to stop in the violence.
02:03:51.584 --> 02:03:55.306
[UNKNOWN]: And for that one year that Pablo was in the prison, the bomb stopped.
02:03:57.247 --> 02:04:02.969
[UNKNOWN]: So, and when we speak to people, we throw it out there and put yourself in the shoes of the President of Columbia.
02:04:03.089 --> 02:04:04.250
[UNKNOWN]: And here was your platform.
02:04:05.730 --> 02:04:08.411
[UNKNOWN]: Was that a bad decision to let himself surrender?
02:04:08.811 --> 02:04:09.712
[UNKNOWN]: I still think it was.
02:04:10.492 --> 02:04:11.753
[UNKNOWN]: But result was,
02:04:12.921 --> 02:04:16.062
[UNKNOWN]: Some more people are still alive because of the bombing stop, innocent people.
02:04:16.362 --> 02:04:17.062
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
02:04:17.102 --> 02:04:27.585
[UNKNOWN]: Public set out for bomb on 15th Street in North Bogotá, where this huge mall was, and then front of this mall was all glass, multi-story mall.
02:04:28.245 --> 02:04:37.307
[UNKNOWN]: He said a bomb off across the street because there was a drugstore owned by the Cali Cartel, and, you know, they were rivals, but when that bomb went off, all that glass shredded.
02:04:38.335 --> 02:04:42.681
[UNKNOWN]: and it just happened to be a day when moms were there with their schoolmates, children by school supplies.
02:04:43.502 --> 02:04:46.225
[UNKNOWN]: And we went down, how do you know I went down to the site after we heard about it?
02:04:47.587 --> 02:04:49.709
[UNKNOWN]: And you can only get so close to traffic bugs down.
02:04:49.749 --> 02:04:52.873
[UNKNOWN]: And if you've been to Bogotá, the horrible traffic's horrible.
02:04:52.974 --> 02:04:53.614
[UNKNOWN]: It's like LA.
02:04:54.395 --> 02:04:55.136
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe worse than LA.
02:04:56.371 --> 02:05:21.606
[UNKNOWN]: So, then you get out and start walking in and you start hearing sounds and you can see the smoke building up from where the bomb went off and you start smelling things that aren't natural and then you start seeing body parts laying around and then eventually you've got up to where you see those iconic pictures of the first responder carrying a lifeless bodies of toddlers who were just simply in the wrong place at their own time.
02:05:22.627 --> 02:05:24.488
[UNKNOWN]: That's how vicious Pablo Escobar was.
02:05:25.575 --> 02:05:27.756
[UNKNOWN]: This myth of the Robin Hood, that's BS.
02:05:27.936 --> 02:05:30.016
[UNKNOWN]: This myth of him being a dedicated family man.
02:05:30.056 --> 02:05:31.216
[UNKNOWN]: That's absolutely not true.
02:05:31.857 --> 02:05:34.177
[UNKNOWN]: The myth that he committed suicide, that's not true.
02:05:34.197 --> 02:05:36.618
[UNKNOWN]: I took the pictures.
02:05:37.898 --> 02:05:38.978
[UNKNOWN]: I know that's not what happened.
02:05:40.119 --> 02:05:48.221
[UNKNOWN]: So finally on December 2nd, 1993 is when the Columbia National Police, not the Green Goes.
02:05:48.381 --> 02:05:49.761
[UNKNOWN]: This is a Columbia operation.
02:05:52.393 --> 02:06:00.321
[UNKNOWN]: They're using radio directional finding equipment to try to find Pablo's phone because the telephones were not 3G, 4G, 5G like we had today.
02:06:00.361 --> 02:06:01.362
[UNKNOWN]: They were radio telephones.
02:06:02.843 --> 02:06:04.084
[UNKNOWN]: You know a lot about radios.
02:06:04.144 --> 02:06:06.907
[UNKNOWN]: The radio frequency spectrum, there's thousands of frequencies in there.
02:06:07.507 --> 02:06:13.453
[UNKNOWN]: If Pablo wants the Thor R. efforts to listen to him, because he knew we were listening to the calls, we'd be in the Columbia National Police.
02:06:15.734 --> 02:06:22.600
[UNKNOWN]: I was going to do a spin that dial to a new frequency, but it's really not that easy because he's got to get the new frequency to the people he wants to talk to, right?
02:06:23.220 --> 02:06:25.342
[UNKNOWN]: So it's a little more challenging than what it sounds.
02:06:28.084 --> 02:06:41.195
[UNKNOWN]: That day December 2, 1993 there was a lieutenant named Ugo Martinez who happens to be the son of Colonel Ugo Martinez, who was extremely talented, extremely intelligent, had taken
02:06:46.514 --> 02:06:52.938
[UNKNOWN]: The government of France had donated several vans that have that type of equipment in it.
02:06:53.639 --> 02:06:55.740
[UNKNOWN]: The city of Medine is kind of built in a bowl.
02:06:56.741 --> 02:07:00.683
[UNKNOWN]: The algorithm of that equipment that France in over is called triangulation.
02:07:00.703 --> 02:07:01.604
[UNKNOWN]: That's pretty simple, right?
02:07:02.004 --> 02:07:10.770
[UNKNOWN]: So you put three vans on high spots around the city, shooting a signal out, and where those three signals intersect, that's where Pablo's phone is, his radio phone.
02:07:11.868 --> 02:07:22.671
[UNKNOWN]: The problem is, the margin of error was rather large, so you have these handheld units that you use, and it's a handheld antenna with a meter, and you use that by ride down the street, hold it out the window.
02:07:23.524 --> 02:07:25.885
[UNKNOWN]: And that's what Lieutenant Hugo Martinez did that day.
02:07:25.945 --> 02:07:33.907
[UNKNOWN]: His equipment is telling you that, you know, based on everything he's getting from the vans, all that information, the way he's finding on the ground that publish should be in this area.
02:07:34.527 --> 02:07:35.827
[UNKNOWN]: He's the one round-end industry.
02:07:35.847 --> 02:07:40.929
[UNKNOWN]: He's got a driver holding that antenna out the window, which, you know, it's not obvious at all.
02:07:44.310 --> 02:07:48.351
[UNKNOWN]: He's, this little meter is showing that the signal is pointing to the left.
02:07:49.947 --> 02:07:56.431
[UNKNOWN]: His own words, he says he looks up and he sees Pablo Escobar out the second floor window on the phone looking out, looking at him.
02:07:57.551 --> 02:08:03.475
[UNKNOWN]: Now we're recording this conversation because Pablo's talking to his son, Juan Pablo, getting him instructions.
02:08:04.115 --> 02:08:12.460
[UNKNOWN]: You call the president, tell him this, you call the members of Congress, especially from Antioquio, which is where Medine is located, tell him that, and call the press, and tell him,
02:08:13.451 --> 02:08:19.414
[UNKNOWN]: If they don't print what I say and do what I say, I'm going to declare a war on this country like you've never seen before.
02:08:19.434 --> 02:08:20.755
[UNKNOWN]: And this would have been the third time.
02:08:22.015 --> 02:08:22.816
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, absolutely.
02:08:22.856 --> 02:08:24.737
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, this guy, he doesn't make idle threats.
02:08:26.978 --> 02:08:33.301
[UNKNOWN]: We've gone back and listed those conversations because you're thinking with, you know, Lieutenant said he was looking at you.
02:08:34.463 --> 02:08:39.944
[UNKNOWN]: Why didn't he, we would've heard something on the phone that would, hey, this is what I want you, what the heck is that?
02:08:40.504 --> 02:08:42.865
[UNKNOWN]: Why's that guy running down the street with an antenna hanging out as winter?
02:08:43.485 --> 02:08:44.085
[UNKNOWN]: There's none of that.
02:08:44.105 --> 02:08:47.005
[UNKNOWN]: There's no break in his conversation at all.
02:08:47.685 --> 02:08:53.707
[UNKNOWN]: And the only explanation that we've ever been able to come up with is that, you know, as you and I are talking today, I'm really living things in my brain.
02:08:53.727 --> 02:08:56.007
[UNKNOWN]: I'm looking to chew, but I'm in my mind.
02:08:56.667 --> 02:09:00.808
[UNKNOWN]: And we're thinking that Pablo was in his mind, looking at things and not realize that what he was seeing.
02:09:01.628 --> 02:09:05.053
[UNKNOWN]: in reality because he was so focused on what he was saying on the phone.
02:09:05.334 --> 02:09:05.574
[UNKNOWN]: Wow.
02:09:06.015 --> 02:09:06.516
[UNKNOWN]: Is that true?
02:09:06.556 --> 02:09:06.816
[UNKNOWN]: I don't know.
02:09:06.836 --> 02:09:10.842
[UNKNOWN]: That's the only reasonable explanation we've ever been able to come up with.
02:09:12.845 --> 02:09:13.907
[UNKNOWN]: The Narcos series.
02:09:15.003 --> 02:09:19.265
[UNKNOWN]: shows that I was on the roof and the Columbia National Police, that's the Deheen Unit made that hit.
02:09:20.285 --> 02:09:20.866
[UNKNOWN]: That's not true.
02:09:20.946 --> 02:09:21.786
[UNKNOWN]: I was back to base.
02:09:22.126 --> 02:09:24.867
[UNKNOWN]: I actually listened to the operation in Colonel Martinez's office.
02:09:25.868 --> 02:09:29.949
[UNKNOWN]: I was standing in the room with all the operators because you know, you get to be friends with everybody.
02:09:31.150 --> 02:09:37.773
[UNKNOWN]: You guys were rotating in, I think, at 90 day intervals and then you go from Columbia over to Mogadishu and then y'all were doing different things.
02:09:38.793 --> 02:09:46.168
[UNKNOWN]: So it's just, it's nice to get around, you know, talk sports with Americans or, you know, just, the things that we like talk about as Green goes, right?
02:09:47.992 --> 02:09:48.874
[UNKNOWN]: Assault of kernels.
02:09:49.777 --> 02:10:06.401
[UNKNOWN]: Executive staff running out of the barracks across the quad to his office and I told the guys this is something's going on here, you know, let me go see and I went over and and when I got to the door of Kermartines, they had a hard time saying my name's Steve and so that they called me Steak, so my nickname was stick.
02:10:07.662 --> 02:10:12.823
[UNKNOWN]: I'm one of the things I'm not a stick, but everybody had street names you know, and he's a steak steak, come on in, come on in.
02:10:13.820 --> 02:10:33.045
[UNKNOWN]: and he's on a portable talking to his son and he's telling him you're a son just told him that he said I just I've got Pablo and I saw him and Colonel says I were loaded up to troops here whatever you do don't let him escape and he had the lieutenant had the the hean guys out there and there's there was always two majors that ran the deheen unit
02:10:34.603 --> 02:10:37.804
[UNKNOWN]: So, you know, it takes a while to load up 600 troops.
02:10:38.364 --> 02:10:43.846
[UNKNOWN]: You got to get trucks out in the jeeps and they, you know, they didn't let them carry weapons on the base, they had to issue their weapons.
02:10:43.867 --> 02:10:45.127
[UNKNOWN]: And so it just takes a little while.
02:10:46.267 --> 02:10:48.728
[UNKNOWN]: So they're getting all that down while this operation is going down.
02:10:48.768 --> 02:10:51.069
[UNKNOWN]: And I'll send the radio guys real quiet.
02:10:51.930 --> 02:10:55.671
[UNKNOWN]: And I'm sure it was only a couple minutes, but it seemed like just in a eternity.
02:10:56.311 --> 02:10:58.932
[UNKNOWN]: And finally, one of the majors comes back up on the radio.
02:10:58.952 --> 02:11:00.993
[UNKNOWN]: It says, Viva Colombe, a Pablo Escobar is dead.
02:11:02.015 --> 02:11:09.825
[UNKNOWN]: So it's, you know, we're all cheering and a half out of the back slapping, but we've been down the road before.
02:11:10.706 --> 02:11:12.969
[UNKNOWN]: You know, where we thought he was dead, it wasn't as bad information.
02:11:14.188 --> 02:11:27.216
[UNKNOWN]: So, I take off Ron, I need to get a phone and call back to my boss, the head of DEA in the embassy because he was the kind of guy he had or backs, but whoever got the information between first that's who he believed.
02:11:28.197 --> 02:11:35.101
[UNKNOWN]: So I take off and I run into the room where we have the tip line because nobody ever uses that phone.
02:11:35.782 --> 02:11:40.645
[UNKNOWN]: I'm trying to call our front office at the embassy, I can't get through getting the busy signals, I finally call our admin office.
02:11:42.835 --> 02:11:44.596
[UNKNOWN]: Um, one of the girls in there named Angie.
02:11:44.616 --> 02:11:47.377
[UNKNOWN]: She picks up the phone and I said, Angie, go get Mr. Toff.
02:11:47.397 --> 02:11:48.898
[UNKNOWN]: And she said, Oh, hey, Steve, how you doing?
02:11:48.918 --> 02:11:49.619
[UNKNOWN]: How's Connie?
02:11:50.419 --> 02:11:51.380
[UNKNOWN]: And Angie, this is emergency.
02:11:51.400 --> 02:11:51.940
[UNKNOWN]: Go get Mr. Toff.
02:11:52.240 --> 02:11:52.400
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
02:11:52.420 --> 02:11:52.640
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
02:11:52.660 --> 02:11:54.001
[UNKNOWN]: Are you going to be in town this weekend?
02:11:54.021 --> 02:11:55.562
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe we can get together and have a have dinner.
02:11:55.582 --> 02:11:56.802
[UNKNOWN]: And I said, Angie, go get the ball.
02:11:56.822 --> 02:11:57.463
[UNKNOWN]: So the phone now.
02:11:57.483 --> 02:11:58.083
[UNKNOWN]: This is urgent.
02:11:58.243 --> 02:11:58.543
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
02:11:58.603 --> 02:11:58.924
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
02:11:59.964 --> 02:12:03.166
[UNKNOWN]: So it took him, I don't know, two or three minutes to come and get on the phone.
02:12:03.486 --> 02:12:04.546
[UNKNOWN]: But just seem like forever.
02:12:04.566 --> 02:12:06.187
[UNKNOWN]: Because your answer, you're want to get going.
02:12:06.207 --> 02:12:09.149
[UNKNOWN]: And, uh, Mr. Toff picks up the phone.
02:12:09.189 --> 02:12:11.050
[UNKNOWN]: First thing you says is they just kill Pablo.
02:12:12.426 --> 02:12:14.448
[UNKNOWN]: I said, no shit boss, that's why I'm calling you.
02:12:15.129 --> 02:12:17.411
[UNKNOWN]: I just need to just take all the wind up, so I was, you know?
02:12:18.052 --> 02:12:19.053
[UNKNOWN]: And he's like, where are you at?
02:12:19.113 --> 02:12:25.880
[UNKNOWN]: And I said, I just left Kermartines off, so I come to report to you, we ran my gear, he said, get your butt out there, confirm this is Pablo.
02:12:26.281 --> 02:12:29.284
[UNKNOWN]: You know, we've been down this road before, make sure that they got it right.
02:12:30.322 --> 02:12:32.803
[UNKNOWN]: So I, you know, we have a few more minutes conversation.
02:12:32.823 --> 02:12:37.405
[UNKNOWN]: I said, I said, boss, you remember what the DCM told me about kicking me out of the company, if I leave the base.
02:12:37.805 --> 02:12:38.906
[UNKNOWN]: He said, you've been leaving the base.
02:12:38.946 --> 02:12:41.367
[UNKNOWN]: I said, I know, he said, how do you work for it?
02:12:41.387 --> 02:12:42.147
[UNKNOWN]: I said, I work for you, sir.
02:12:42.167 --> 02:12:43.668
[UNKNOWN]: And he said, what did I just tell you to do?
02:12:43.688 --> 02:12:44.728
[UNKNOWN]: And I said, sir, I'm on the way.
02:12:45.929 --> 02:12:47.690
[UNKNOWN]: So I have to run to the BIRX and get my gear.
02:12:48.010 --> 02:12:50.431
[UNKNOWN]: My weapons, and of course, my camera.
02:12:51.051 --> 02:12:54.853
[UNKNOWN]: I've come running out in the entire church block is gone.
02:12:55.834 --> 02:12:58.075
[UNKNOWN]: The only people there are the guards on the gates.
02:12:58.135 --> 02:13:02.357
[UNKNOWN]: We had inter-parameters and outer-parameters, and there were no vehicles.
02:13:02.377 --> 02:13:08.340
[UNKNOWN]: The operators over there, I'm staying out in the middle of the quad, just not knowing what to do, and they're like, worthless, wrong.
02:13:09.140 --> 02:13:10.261
[UNKNOWN]: And they already knew what had happened.
02:13:12.182 --> 02:13:14.483
[UNKNOWN]: So I'm thinking, I don't know where they are, Mediine.
02:13:14.543 --> 02:13:15.743
[UNKNOWN]: I don't even have a bicycle.
02:13:15.763 --> 02:13:16.664
[UNKNOWN]: There's no vehicles here.
02:13:16.724 --> 02:13:18.585
[UNKNOWN]: I couldn't even call a taxi cab to take me somewhere.
02:13:18.605 --> 02:13:19.265
[UNKNOWN]: I don't know where they are.
02:13:20.036 --> 02:13:23.757
[UNKNOWN]: And about that time, here comes Colonel Martinez in his detail, drive it back in the base.
02:13:24.357 --> 02:13:26.417
[UNKNOWN]: And he sees me and he's like, what are you doing?
02:13:26.797 --> 02:13:27.857
[UNKNOWN]: I said, I need a ride, Colonel.
02:13:28.217 --> 02:13:30.498
[UNKNOWN]: Get your butt in the car and you have an open air Jeep.
02:13:31.438 --> 02:13:32.538
[UNKNOWN]: Get your butt in the Jeep, let's go.
02:13:33.878 --> 02:13:40.159
[UNKNOWN]: So we ride out there and that's the best thing could happen because I'm with the Colonel.
02:13:41.100 --> 02:13:42.960
[UNKNOWN]: The Colombians are very ranked conscious.
02:13:43.540 --> 02:13:47.641
[UNKNOWN]: So if you're a corporal and I'm a private, I'm a kissier, but I mean,
02:13:50.130 --> 02:13:52.731
[UNKNOWN]: So because I'm with Colonel, everybody's getting out of our way.
02:13:53.031 --> 02:13:54.131
[UNKNOWN]: I've got access to everything.
02:13:55.152 --> 02:13:59.093
[UNKNOWN]: So we go up to the, we get to that rowhouse where Pablo was.
02:13:59.213 --> 02:14:12.578
[UNKNOWN]: And one of the things that the operators had done with the Colombians was worked on their tactics on their firearms, proficiency, taught him how to use debt-coordable doors.
02:14:13.818 --> 02:14:15.899
[UNKNOWN]: So they had debt-coord answers.
02:14:15.919 --> 02:14:16.919
[UNKNOWN]: Really that door up that day.
02:14:17.520 --> 02:14:18.480
[UNKNOWN]: Which I thought was really cool.
02:14:19.732 --> 02:14:24.517
[UNKNOWN]: Then you come into the first floor, and there was a taxi cab parked in there, and that was the kitchen.
02:14:24.797 --> 02:14:29.001
[UNKNOWN]: And the taxi cab is right there in the kitchen, in the middle of the kitchen, and in the laundry rooms in the back.
02:14:29.021 --> 02:14:38.651
[UNKNOWN]: And then you go up the second floor, there's a living room, like a dining room area, maybe a bedroom, a bathroom, and then you go the third floor, and there's more bedrooms up there.
02:14:40.128 --> 02:14:53.097
[UNKNOWN]: So we make our way up to the third floor eventually, and that's the window that Pablo and his one secario, the guinea Pablo had this many as 500, he's down to one secario, which that surprised everybody too, because we were all expecting the major battle.
02:14:54.278 --> 02:15:02.064
[UNKNOWN]: So get up to that third floor window, and you look at on the roof of the two-story row house behind them, and there's Pablo's body, and there's our dehingas.
02:15:02.970 --> 02:15:03.791
[UNKNOWN]: And I'm beyond Adam.
02:15:03.831 --> 02:15:09.094
[UNKNOWN]: Hey, you know, hey guys, what you got there just getting around, they see me and they are raising her.
02:15:09.395 --> 02:15:11.416
[UNKNOWN]: Stakes, steak, we gotty, we gotty.
02:15:11.836 --> 02:15:20.963
[UNKNOWN]: And they're not shooting like they do in the Middle East, you know, but they got their weapons out and so I start taking pictures and the colonel says, come on, stick, we're going to go around to the other side.
02:15:21.363 --> 02:15:24.566
[UNKNOWN]: So we go out, back outside, we have walk all in the end of the block, come around the other side.
02:15:24.586 --> 02:15:26.267
[UNKNOWN]: They got a ladder and we climb up on the roof.
02:15:27.928 --> 02:15:39.822
[UNKNOWN]: were popular's bodies and so I started taking the pictures and just looking at the site and for everything I knew about Pablo Escore that was him, you know, I don't think it's first time receiving him in my life he was already dead.
02:15:41.343 --> 02:15:45.068
[UNKNOWN]: So a double shoulder host rig, he had two nine millimeters.
02:15:47.844 --> 02:15:51.006
[UNKNOWN]: I don't think one was a barata, I can't remember now.
02:15:51.566 --> 02:15:52.687
[UNKNOWN]: You know, I've got pictures of it.
02:15:54.188 --> 02:15:59.911
[UNKNOWN]: And next thing, you know, the Colombian police officers that he and guys are wanting their picture may be a Pablo.
02:15:59.991 --> 02:16:01.292
[UNKNOWN]: Sure, I've got the only camera.
02:16:01.592 --> 02:16:03.113
[UNKNOWN]: Turns out my camera's only when it worked.
02:16:03.793 --> 02:16:10.698
[UNKNOWN]: So all the pictures that were taken of Escobar on that roof that day, the first ones before the forensic people got there were my pictures.
02:16:10.838 --> 02:16:11.778
[UNKNOWN]: Oh, wow.
02:16:11.818 --> 02:16:14.780
[UNKNOWN]: So I'm taking pictures of it and next guys will come up, next guys are coming up.
02:16:17.635 --> 02:16:23.179
[UNKNOWN]: I'm thinking that really is Pablo Escobar and you just feel like the way to the world has been lifted off of your shoulders.
02:16:23.839 --> 02:16:28.162
[UNKNOWN]: You know, my wife now, we've already adopted our first daughter and they're in Bogotown.
02:16:28.202 --> 02:16:28.843
[UNKNOWN]: I'm in Mediine.
02:16:28.863 --> 02:16:31.044
[UNKNOWN]: I'm not even getting to spend any time with my daughter.
02:16:32.525 --> 02:16:36.428
[UNKNOWN]: So eventually, one of the majors is like, stick it over, let's take your picture.
02:16:36.948 --> 02:16:43.093
[UNKNOWN]: So I get over there with them and they use my camera, take a couple pictures, which is one of those pictures that, um,
02:16:44.483 --> 02:16:45.903
[UNKNOWN]: I understand I'm not so proud of today.
02:16:46.884 --> 02:16:54.786
[UNKNOWN]: I was then because felt like we had one, Pablo Escobard lost, but headquarters wasn't real happy with that picture.
02:16:55.826 --> 02:16:59.527
[UNKNOWN]: I had a little explain to do over that, but we got through it.
02:17:00.228 --> 02:17:02.808
[UNKNOWN]: Just the kind of war trophy aspect of it.
02:17:03.148 --> 02:17:11.811
[UNKNOWN]: It was, it was, you, I guess the way I'd explain it is you get caught up in the emotion and it really was,
02:17:13.586 --> 02:17:19.572
[UNKNOWN]: Like, we finally won, you know, this guy can not kill anybody else.
02:17:21.134 --> 02:17:32.786
[UNKNOWN]: If you go back and look and not challenge anybody to do this, 1992, 1993, Mediinclumbia was the murder capital of the entire world.
02:17:34.761 --> 02:17:42.628
[UNKNOWN]: There were times, if we got to go home for a week, yeah, we'd leave on the healer would fly us out to the airport on Saturday morning, we had to be back Sunday night or Monday morning early.
02:17:43.629 --> 02:17:47.493
[UNKNOWN]: There, in two days, it'd been as many as 300 murders in the city of two million people.
02:17:48.314 --> 02:17:49.835
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, it was the murder capital of the world.
02:17:50.796 --> 02:17:55.300
[UNKNOWN]: So, in explaining this in our presentations, I don't hide that picture.
02:17:56.001 --> 02:17:59.864
[UNKNOWN]: And I want the world to know why the picture was made.
02:18:00.994 --> 02:18:19.001
[UNKNOWN]: So after Pablo's death, what we did is we looked at the murder rate in Mediine prior to Pablo's death, and then we awaited a couple of months after his death and looked at the murder rate in what I found, and what anybody that checks it will find is that the murder rate in Mediine Columbia had dropped by almost 80 percent, just because one man was gone.
02:18:20.202 --> 02:18:26.324
[UNKNOWN]: So we do tours all around the world and especially in the UK and England,
02:18:28.506 --> 02:18:29.587
[UNKNOWN]: We always have a Q&A.
02:18:29.907 --> 02:18:31.489
[UNKNOWN]: You can ask us questions about anything.
02:18:32.350 --> 02:18:40.658
[UNKNOWN]: And they try to break me over the coals, you know, that your job is to protect human life, but your picture you stand with over a dead man.
02:18:41.683 --> 02:18:42.583
[UNKNOWN]: What's right about that?
02:18:43.343 --> 02:18:45.104
[UNKNOWN]: There's nothing really, anything right about it.
02:18:45.124 --> 02:18:48.625
[UNKNOWN]: But the reason we're all happy is because Paul O' Eskobar is dead.
02:18:48.645 --> 02:18:53.886
[UNKNOWN]: That meant every citizen in the country of Colombia was safer simply because one man was dead.
02:18:54.146 --> 02:18:54.346
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
02:18:55.526 --> 02:19:04.768
[UNKNOWN]: It's fascinating to see or hear, I guess, the statistic of how big of a drop the murder rate plummeted after Eskobar is death.
02:19:05.889 --> 02:19:08.949
[UNKNOWN]: Do you know a ballpark of how many Colombian police
02:19:12.251 --> 02:19:19.538
[UNKNOWN]: I know that the total number is 50,000, according to one of his guys, but is there a stat that outlines how many?
02:19:20.740 --> 02:19:44.892
[UNKNOWN]: I don't know the exact number, but what I've been told by Havier, who, you know, he's like the walkin' in cyclopede on this stuff, and the Columbia National Police, is that throughout the entire investigation of Pablo Escopar from when he was still in hubcaps to the day he died in 1993 that over 1,000 police officers in Columbia were murdered because of him and his organization.
02:19:51.663 --> 02:20:14.046
[UNKNOWN]: agency stop everything else they're doing to concentrate on catching who killed that police officer can you imagine a thousand well it may have been overwhelming to where you you couldn't do that you know there's just not not the resources in Columbia the Columbia National Police have their own funeral home in Bogota wow I want to say there's I want to say there's six seven eight different viewing rooms
02:20:15.262 --> 02:20:20.984
[UNKNOWN]: But those eight officers were killed, if I told you about that, didn't it?
02:20:22.004 --> 02:20:25.945
[UNKNOWN]: So there was an operation that the heengahs were going out on one time.
02:20:26.145 --> 02:20:28.426
[UNKNOWN]: It was, they were going to have to cross the river.
02:20:29.226 --> 02:20:32.567
[UNKNOWN]: And it was information where Pablo was possibly hiding.
02:20:32.847 --> 02:20:33.967
[UNKNOWN]: And they didn't take us.
02:20:34.607 --> 02:20:36.408
[UNKNOWN]: They just told us, sure, you're not going with us on this one.
02:20:37.439 --> 02:20:45.183
[UNKNOWN]: And so they suited up in their vests and they had to grenade bandeliers, you know, those gold grenade balls that they launched at each other.
02:20:45.263 --> 02:20:49.845
[UNKNOWN]: And they were just way to down and they had to go through some rapids and the boats overturned eight up and drowned.
02:20:50.185 --> 02:20:50.505
[UNKNOWN]: Oh, wow.
02:20:51.065 --> 02:20:55.147
[UNKNOWN]: And so, however you're not, we flew back to Bogotá for their services.
02:20:56.848 --> 02:20:58.689
[UNKNOWN]: They don't have bomb bodies in Columbia.
02:20:58.969 --> 02:21:02.091
[UNKNOWN]: They drain the fluids and they put cotton in your ears and your nose and your mouth.
02:21:02.631 --> 02:21:05.472
[UNKNOWN]: But you smell it before you ever get inside the funeral home.
02:21:06.173 --> 02:21:12.036
[UNKNOWN]: And just seeing the families of these guys that, you know, you called friends and colleagues.
02:21:13.796 --> 02:21:15.077
[UNKNOWN]: I get emotional with stuff like that.
02:21:15.597 --> 02:21:16.338
[UNKNOWN]: I can't help it.
02:21:16.378 --> 02:21:19.339
[UNKNOWN]: I'll start tearing up and it feels so bad for their families.
02:21:19.619 --> 02:21:20.420
[UNKNOWN]: No, I just should.
02:21:20.460 --> 02:21:22.581
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, that's, that's heartbreaking.
02:21:25.311 --> 02:21:41.587
[UNKNOWN]: It makes me wonder how, was there a strategy that you were aware of to combat corruption because when police salaries and I know they deal with that extensively in Mexico and in most places where kind of narco-terrorism is the main.
02:21:43.208 --> 02:21:52.757
[UNKNOWN]: act in town, but, you know, it's social economically such a poor profession in these places.
02:21:53.577 --> 02:21:59.743
[UNKNOWN]: Coupled with the fact that, you know, their mortality rate is astronomically high compared to most places.
02:22:00.824 --> 02:22:04.727
[UNKNOWN]: Do you know what, what strategies they would employ, would employ, because
02:22:13.538 --> 02:22:20.441
[UNKNOWN]: I was very concerned about the corruption issue when I went to Columbia, you know, when you're living it, it's a lot more important to you.
02:22:22.381 --> 02:22:31.245
[UNKNOWN]: In the three years, I was there, I'm only aware of three low-ranking police officers that were part of the search block that their crime was.
02:22:31.265 --> 02:22:33.946
[UNKNOWN]: They made a phone call when we were mounting up to go out on operation.
02:22:35.001 --> 02:22:36.082
[UNKNOWN]: So they were just giving heads up.
02:22:36.503 --> 02:22:41.449
[UNKNOWN]: Pablo had spies on there was only two interests and interests and exits to the police base.
02:22:41.469 --> 02:22:43.491
[UNKNOWN]: And it was in a, it's actually in a neighborhood.
02:22:43.571 --> 02:22:49.638
[UNKNOWN]: So your outer perimeter encompassed a neighborhood where normal people lived and then the inner perimeter was our base.
02:22:50.319 --> 02:22:52.902
[UNKNOWN]: But obviously I had checkpoints on outer and inner parameters.
02:22:53.823 --> 02:23:01.229
[UNKNOWN]: Um, and he just, there's only two ways in and out, so he had spies that just would camp out and, okay, they got a convoy coming out.
02:23:01.369 --> 02:23:10.316
[UNKNOWN]: They're heading north, they're heading south, whatever, and then they'd have cars that would fall and to see where they're heading to, and so they can give them alerts that, yep, they're coming your way or no, they're not, they're going somewhere else.
02:23:12.478 --> 02:23:19.704
[UNKNOWN]: The corruption issue hurt a lot of corruption about politicians down there, I never saw it firsthand.
02:23:24.595 --> 02:23:25.676
[UNKNOWN]: something to think about.
02:23:25.696 --> 02:23:28.697
[UNKNOWN]: So I mentioned to you early, put yourself in the shoes of the President of Columbia.
02:23:28.737 --> 02:23:31.499
[UNKNOWN]: Would you have made that deal to stop the violence for one year?
02:23:32.039 --> 02:23:32.440
[UNKNOWN]: I don't know.
02:23:32.480 --> 02:23:33.080
[UNKNOWN]: That's stuff.
02:23:33.500 --> 02:23:34.461
[UNKNOWN]: I don't know that I would either.
02:23:35.321 --> 02:23:38.903
[UNKNOWN]: I know that I would like to say no I wouldn't have.
02:23:38.963 --> 02:23:41.705
[UNKNOWN]: But I mean, there's people alive because he made that decision.
02:23:42.365 --> 02:23:51.651
[UNKNOWN]: I think it's hard to, it's hard for us to go along with that because it's impossible to separate our perspective of what that would be like here.
02:23:51.791 --> 02:23:53.032
[UNKNOWN]: Here, absolutely not.
02:23:53.844 --> 02:24:12.099
[UNKNOWN]: You know, I would take the gloves off of every entity that could help combat that militarily federal law enforcement, you name it like I would take the gloves off and say, not given this due to a five year, you know, protected, subsidized, security break, go find them.
02:24:12.460 --> 02:24:12.660
[UNKNOWN]: Right.
02:24:13.180 --> 02:24:18.205
[UNKNOWN]: There is just very different and I like you obviously know that place way better than I do.
02:24:18.285 --> 02:24:21.628
[UNKNOWN]: So it's hard for me to even comprehend being in that position.
02:24:22.308 --> 02:24:31.874
[UNKNOWN]: Well, there were other things, and Pablo repeatedly made examples of people who went against him, so the Minister of Justice was a guy named Rodrigo Laro Benea.
02:24:32.014 --> 02:24:35.556
[UNKNOWN]: And this is back when Pablo had been elected into Congress.
02:24:35.856 --> 02:24:37.517
[UNKNOWN]: So he's actually like a Congressman.
02:24:38.838 --> 02:24:45.122
[UNKNOWN]: And the law in Columbia was, if you've been convicted of a felony, you can't be a member of Congress.
02:24:45.342 --> 02:24:51.286
[UNKNOWN]: And Laura O'Benea found that iconic mugshot of Pablo Holden's number with a smile on his face.
02:24:52.047 --> 02:24:53.628
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, who smiles in the mugshot, right?
02:24:53.888 --> 02:24:55.309
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, not something to be proud of.
02:24:56.069 --> 02:24:57.991
[UNKNOWN]: And he unveiled that in open Congress.
02:24:58.591 --> 02:25:03.975
[UNKNOWN]: And that's when Oscar Bar was escorted out of the chamber and never allowed to return.
02:25:04.938 --> 02:25:13.566
[UNKNOWN]: And it was just a short time later when two guys on a motorcycle pulled up next to the Rodrigo Larboneous car on the way home and killed him in the backseat of his car.
02:25:14.788 --> 02:25:25.398
[UNKNOWN]: We were speaking and we did a Northern Scandinavian tour back before COVID and we did, I think we did seven shows in Norway and then a whole bunch of other countries.
02:25:27.082 --> 02:25:34.106
[UNKNOWN]: And I think I'm not sure it's Oslo, but somewhere in Norway, after our presentation, we're in the green room and the security guy comes in.
02:25:34.126 --> 02:25:37.628
[UNKNOWN]: It says, hey, there's a young man out here that says he's from Colombia, we'd like to meet you guys.
02:25:38.129 --> 02:25:38.929
[UNKNOWN]: And that's not unusual.
02:25:39.269 --> 02:25:40.750
[UNKNOWN]: We meet Colombians all around the world.
02:25:41.130 --> 02:25:43.392
[UNKNOWN]: Almost everywhere we go, there's a Colombian audience.
02:25:43.812 --> 02:25:44.692
[UNKNOWN]: And they always want to meet you.
02:25:45.393 --> 02:25:50.396
[UNKNOWN]: And it's not confrontational, they want to thank you for what you'd help to do with further country.
02:25:51.256 --> 02:25:56.540
[UNKNOWN]: Well, turns out, this kid was a member of Laura Bonillas, immediate family.
02:25:56.600 --> 02:26:04.447
[UNKNOWN]: He was just a toddler when his uncle, whatever relationship was, was killed.
02:26:05.248 --> 02:26:09.151
[UNKNOWN]: And so, Pablo, remember, he didn't just kill you, he came after your family.
02:26:09.911 --> 02:26:18.979
[UNKNOWN]: And so, this kid told us, he's a man now, he said that over 30 people of the immediate family, the next day, packed up and moved in Norway.
02:26:20.272 --> 02:26:21.533
[UNKNOWN]: And so this kid didn't speak Spanish.
02:26:21.573 --> 02:26:25.435
[UNKNOWN]: He spoke English, he spoke Norwegian, whatever the languages are over that part of the world.
02:26:26.216 --> 02:26:26.856
[UNKNOWN]: That's wild.
02:26:27.757 --> 02:26:29.057
[UNKNOWN]: I just, it was unbelievable.
02:26:29.077 --> 02:26:31.059
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, you know, we first came in and started talking.
02:26:31.079 --> 02:26:32.680
[UNKNOWN]: We started getting little nervous.
02:26:32.860 --> 02:26:33.060
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
02:26:33.280 --> 02:26:33.380
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
02:26:33.400 --> 02:26:34.521
[UNKNOWN]: We've been surrounding here.
02:26:34.761 --> 02:26:35.381
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I imagine.
02:26:36.862 --> 02:26:46.048
[UNKNOWN]: You said Delva Force and Team 6 were integrated to a certain extent for what you can share, what role did they play in all of it?
02:26:48.576 --> 02:26:54.418
[UNKNOWN]: not the role that they should have been allowed to play, you know, and again we talked about this while ago.
02:26:54.518 --> 02:27:01.721
[UNKNOWN]: I just fully believe that had they been given the opportunity to do the job that they would have been successful much quicker.
02:27:02.622 --> 02:27:10.645
[UNKNOWN]: But it was to bring in an intelligence component and to train the Columbia National Police, not the military, but the Columbia National Police
02:27:12.645 --> 02:27:16.247
[UNKNOWN]: on different equipment, on different tactics, things like that.
02:27:16.887 --> 02:27:19.768
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, I see it got relegated to a training role.
02:27:19.968 --> 02:27:21.869
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, advisory types, though.
02:27:22.469 --> 02:27:23.630
[UNKNOWN]: But not out in the field, they didn't.
02:27:24.370 --> 02:27:25.911
[UNKNOWN]: Initially, they let them go up to the prison.
02:27:26.091 --> 02:27:30.292
[UNKNOWN]: You know, there's first week or two, that's where I saw.
02:27:30.312 --> 02:27:35.915
[UNKNOWN]: There's one guy, that probably shouldn't mention his name, because I don't have his permission, but we're still friends today.
02:27:36.907 --> 02:27:52.318
[UNKNOWN]: that dug a hole under a bush using some equipment that he brought with him, that the operators use, and just lived in that hole for like days and days and days.
02:27:52.578 --> 02:27:54.299
[UNKNOWN]: I'm committed, but I'm not sure I'm that committed.
02:27:54.319 --> 02:27:58.142
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe I should be committed, I don't know.
02:28:01.526 --> 02:28:16.024
[UNKNOWN]: One thing that didn't come up a bunch is the Los Pepe's group that may be a little controversial and that I'm curious as an agent where there's inherently going to be some gray area, you know, when you're
02:28:17.325 --> 02:28:29.888
[UNKNOWN]: working alongside, you know, people who are maybe not exactly above board by your rules of engagement and other standards that maybe the DEA would want you to adhere to.
02:28:29.928 --> 02:28:36.650
[UNKNOWN]: How did you kind of reconcile working with them and what role did they play and how did you navigate that?
02:28:38.047 --> 02:28:46.669
[UNKNOWN]: Well, first of all, the Los Peppies is nothing more than a murderous group of vigilantes, which goes against every premise and principle of law enforcement theories.
02:28:46.869 --> 02:28:52.311
[UNKNOWN]: That's the cops' job is to address that not private citizens without the authority.
02:28:54.872 --> 02:28:55.972
[UNKNOWN]: Here's the reality though.
02:28:58.332 --> 02:29:03.394
[UNKNOWN]: When they showed up on the scene, they started using Escobar's tactics against him.
02:29:04.229 --> 02:29:09.912
[UNKNOWN]: And by that I mean, if you were an associate of his, you were a target.
02:29:11.373 --> 02:29:15.796
[UNKNOWN]: If you did anything to support him or his family or his organization, you were a target.
02:29:16.756 --> 02:29:24.841
[UNKNOWN]: That could be a lawyer, it could be a politician, it could be a school teacher, it could be a nurse, it could be a maid.
02:29:25.801 --> 02:29:28.463
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, they were just so ruthless.
02:29:29.832 --> 02:29:36.357
[UNKNOWN]: You've seen this in other parts of the world, I'm sure, where, here in the United States, we don't show gory things on TV or in our magazines.
02:29:37.218 --> 02:29:37.918
[UNKNOWN]: Columbia, they do.
02:29:39.380 --> 02:29:44.984
[UNKNOWN]: So they were print pictures and the public sentiment initially was pro-lo's pepies.
02:29:45.885 --> 02:29:48.647
[UNKNOWN]: They loved the fact that Pablo's getting the taste of his own medicine.
02:29:49.367 --> 02:29:58.995
[UNKNOWN]: And it was, the truth is they had a lot to do with bringing down, but they took it a step too far.
02:30:00.855 --> 02:30:09.780
[UNKNOWN]: There was two attorneys that they killed that were representing members of the Median Cartel, and one of them, I think it was this 10-year-old son, who was with him, and they killed the kid.
02:30:10.580 --> 02:30:14.822
[UNKNOWN]: And that got posted in the media magazines, newspapers on TV and everything.
02:30:15.483 --> 02:30:19.084
[UNKNOWN]: And at that point, public opinion started turning away from those pepies.
02:30:19.625 --> 02:30:23.307
[UNKNOWN]: Not that they were supporting Pablo, but they were realizing that, well, these guys were as bad as Pablo.
02:30:24.947 --> 02:30:25.988
[UNKNOWN]: That's when the...
02:30:28.382 --> 02:30:32.244
[UNKNOWN]: portions of the United States started losing their resolve.
02:30:34.365 --> 02:30:36.387
[UNKNOWN]: And decided they wanted to pull the operators out.
02:30:36.647 --> 02:30:39.348
[UNKNOWN]: They wanted to pull me and I have your back to Bogotile.
02:30:39.368 --> 02:30:42.250
[UNKNOWN]: They wanted to pull CIA out.
02:30:44.691 --> 02:30:49.894
[UNKNOWN]: Thank goodness I'm baster was a can do kind of person, was it not afraid to stand up to people.
02:30:50.575 --> 02:30:53.677
[UNKNOWN]: Southern Command was still located in Panama back during that time.
02:30:54.730 --> 02:30:57.192
[UNKNOWN]: He went head-to-head with them, he went head-to-head with the O.D.
02:30:57.692 --> 02:31:01.535
[UNKNOWN]: State Department and all the way up to the White House, and there by State in place.
02:31:05.637 --> 02:31:13.983
[UNKNOWN]: There was a guy that showed up at the base there in Medelline, and there were some of the bodies that just didn't look right.
02:31:14.683 --> 02:31:15.184
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, he was
02:31:16.715 --> 02:31:18.976
[UNKNOWN]: He just, he should have been there.
02:31:19.137 --> 02:31:21.158
[UNKNOWN]: He didn't look like he was there for any good things.
02:31:21.998 --> 02:31:25.781
[UNKNOWN]: And you start to wonder, is this a spy that they're infiltrating into the compound?
02:31:26.161 --> 02:31:28.903
[UNKNOWN]: So, I mean, I went to Cornell Martins, who is this guy?
02:31:28.923 --> 02:31:31.344
[UNKNOWN]: And he said, well, that's one of the griefs people.
02:31:31.404 --> 02:31:39.869
[UNKNOWN]: He's taking advantage of the self-surrender program, and the grief is authorized him to come up here in our general, the head of Columbia National Police is authorized us to use him.
02:31:40.490 --> 02:31:41.150
[UNKNOWN]: Don't trust him.
02:31:41.751 --> 02:31:43.752
[UNKNOWN]: Well, you would trust this guy just because of the way he looked.
02:31:45.962 --> 02:31:52.885
[UNKNOWN]: What we're happy about now is that we never documented him as an informant because after all was said and done, he was the leader of those pepperists.
02:31:53.366 --> 02:31:53.706
[UNKNOWN]: Oh wow.
02:31:54.166 --> 02:31:57.007
[UNKNOWN]: He was the main security guy for Kiko Moncada.
02:31:57.488 --> 02:31:59.469
[UNKNOWN]: Remember that's one of the guys in the public killed in the prison.
02:31:59.569 --> 02:31:59.769
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
02:32:00.329 --> 02:32:04.151
[UNKNOWN]: And so once that's happened, his loyalty was to Kiko's wife.
02:32:06.699 --> 02:32:11.620
[UNKNOWN]: I just forgot her name too, but he also changed his allegiance to the Cali Cartel.
02:32:12.860 --> 02:32:16.861
[UNKNOWN]: So they were funding him to end the most pepies to go out and do the things that they were doing.
02:32:17.681 --> 02:32:19.341
[UNKNOWN]: It was beneficial to the investigation.
02:32:19.361 --> 02:32:29.083
[UNKNOWN]: It was beneficial to take an out a lot of Escobar Cicario's, they were destroying properties that were associated with Pablo, whether it was things that he owned, they destroyed
02:32:36.159 --> 02:32:42.384
[UNKNOWN]: there were places that were identified as potential high-outs for public, so they'd go burn those places down or blow them up and kill the people.
02:32:42.945 --> 02:32:44.286
[UNKNOWN]: It was just, it was ruthless.
02:32:44.306 --> 02:32:45.227
[UNKNOWN]: What was going on down there?
02:32:45.487 --> 02:32:45.707
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
02:32:46.067 --> 02:32:46.287
[UNKNOWN]: Wow.
02:32:47.629 --> 02:32:51.031
[UNKNOWN]: What was the closest call you ever had while hunting Pablo Escobar?
02:33:02.081 --> 02:33:03.362
[UNKNOWN]: It's kind of hard to pin it down because
02:33:05.042 --> 02:33:16.992
[UNKNOWN]: I don't really enjoy going out on the hewie gunships on operations, but you know you're taking rounds doing that and that was one of the, for me that was probably the scariest part, how of your has a different explanation.
02:33:17.012 --> 02:33:24.798
[UNKNOWN]: He was always worried about the bombs, just, you know, patrols would go down the street and then a car bomb would blow up and kill people the police officers.
02:33:25.478 --> 02:33:28.220
[UNKNOWN]: But for me it was the, I love the riding in the hill of coppers and
02:33:29.902 --> 02:33:31.404
[UNKNOWN]: You know, the adrenaline rush goes with it.
02:33:32.045 --> 02:33:34.628
[UNKNOWN]: But man, it's also one of the scariest things that I ever did.
02:33:34.989 --> 02:33:36.230
[UNKNOWN]: They're bullet magnets for sure.
02:33:36.511 --> 02:33:37.532
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
02:33:37.552 --> 02:33:41.056
[UNKNOWN]: And they had the 30 cows on both sides that would open up on the ground.
02:33:41.857 --> 02:33:42.819
[UNKNOWN]: But they wouldn't let us shoot.
02:33:42.859 --> 02:33:43.399
[UNKNOWN]: They wouldn't let...
02:33:44.337 --> 02:33:53.001
[UNKNOWN]: not just us, but the police officers shoot either and they explained that they were worried about where the casings would go as we're shooting.
02:33:53.021 --> 02:33:57.604
[UNKNOWN]: And the 30 cows that the casings were going into the box so it wasn't they weren't worried about that.
02:33:58.424 --> 02:34:10.210
[UNKNOWN]: But then whenever the military was show up to support us on missions, the cops flew the huge and the military had the black hawks and that when the military came in they would
02:34:12.799 --> 02:34:14.900
[UNKNOWN]: I'm thinking, why don't we have those here at the cops?
02:34:15.600 --> 02:34:17.601
[UNKNOWN]: And then one day, we're at Pablo's ranch.
02:34:19.022 --> 02:34:22.744
[UNKNOWN]: They had taken his finca, finca naplies, and converted it into a police base.
02:34:24.465 --> 02:34:35.411
[UNKNOWN]: And if you were out on patrols, like sometimes you'd take maybe six, eight helicopters off, and the hewies will carry roughly eight combat ready guys, drop you off and you'd hump the mountains for the day.
02:34:36.326 --> 02:34:45.934
[UNKNOWN]: They pick you up in the evening, and if you were in that part of the country, then they take you over the ranch, and you got to stake dinner there tonight, and stake being like his toughest as chair, but like it was stake, right?
02:34:46.295 --> 02:34:57.424
[UNKNOWN]: And so we were there one day, and I walked down to the, there's a, Pablo has his own air strip, and they'd already, they dug multiple ruts in it, so no aircraft, no fixed wing could land there, but he lives who come in land.
02:34:58.145 --> 02:35:01.788
[UNKNOWN]: And there was a huge gunship with all the many guns.
02:35:02.749 --> 02:35:04.989
[UNKNOWN]: And that's the first time, all the operations we've been on.
02:35:05.029 --> 02:35:10.171
[UNKNOWN]: I'm thinking, why is it this thing flying high cover for us every time we go out?
02:35:10.691 --> 02:35:12.191
[UNKNOWN]: And then I never saw it again after that.
02:35:13.171 --> 02:35:16.452
[UNKNOWN]: I don't think things like I just didn't make sense.
02:35:17.192 --> 02:35:20.433
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, you're guessing they're counting to start with.
02:35:21.373 --> 02:35:24.754
[UNKNOWN]: I'm not militarily trained, you know, I'm a cop.
02:35:25.974 --> 02:35:28.698
[UNKNOWN]: But I just, to me, I thought that just makes so much sense.
02:35:28.938 --> 02:35:29.879
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, for sure.
02:35:30.700 --> 02:35:32.883
[UNKNOWN]: Eyes in the sky are tough to beat.
02:35:34.866 --> 02:35:38.230
[UNKNOWN]: You've mentioned the bombing threat a number of times.
02:35:38.711 --> 02:35:43.097
[UNKNOWN]: Was there a material of choice that they used in their bombings?
02:35:46.253 --> 02:35:57.138
[UNKNOWN]: They would get, they would still TNT from Ecuador the mining camps, and then they would use these wood boxes to transport them, but TNT can be pre-unstable.
02:35:58.239 --> 02:36:00.160
[UNKNOWN]: So, especially glycerin based.
02:36:00.500 --> 02:36:01.001
[UNKNOWN]: Exactly.
02:36:01.661 --> 02:36:07.987
[UNKNOWN]: And so what they would do is they would combine that with ammonium nitrate and that increased the explosive power.
02:36:08.828 --> 02:36:15.354
[UNKNOWN]: When he blew up the DOS headquarters that was 500 kilos of TNT, I mean a massive crater.
02:36:15.720 --> 02:36:16.841
[UNKNOWN]: no doubt.
02:36:18.282 --> 02:36:26.669
[UNKNOWN]: I'm curious, the having been an advisor on the Narcoseries, that's got to be almost surreal going through that whole process.
02:36:28.050 --> 02:36:39.038
[UNKNOWN]: What were the challenges and how accurate was the series compared to the real life and how did you navigate when they were adamant on doing something that was factually inaccurate?
02:36:40.599 --> 02:36:41.000
[UNKNOWN]: Well,
02:36:46.482 --> 02:36:49.104
[UNKNOWN]: We thought, you know, first of all, we had to retire from D.E.A.
02:36:49.124 --> 02:36:50.686
[UNKNOWN]: because they wouldn't let's make money on the side.
02:36:51.506 --> 02:37:00.774
[UNKNOWN]: And, however, I would both seem to be executive service, so we were both special agents in charge, which for us is as you can get with that get in a presidential appointment.
02:37:01.334 --> 02:37:10.522
[UNKNOWN]: So we were tired of thinking that, you know, we're going to be working with the writers every day, that when they start family will be on set every day, completely wrong.
02:37:12.041 --> 02:37:20.805
[UNKNOWN]: We retired at the end of June of 13, July we were sitting in Santa Monica, Hollywood, working with the writers to start season one.
02:37:22.466 --> 02:37:27.048
[UNKNOWN]: Each year we would fly out there for a week and work with the writers and then everything else was phone calls and emails.
02:37:27.909 --> 02:37:30.170
[UNKNOWN]: So I'm home, I'm still working as a nurse.
02:37:31.110 --> 02:37:35.252
[UNKNOWN]: First and only time my entire life that I had my entire honey do do it, list done.
02:37:36.053 --> 02:37:37.193
[UNKNOWN]: Everything she will have done.
02:37:40.084 --> 02:37:51.012
[UNKNOWN]: When it came to reality, your contract says that they can portray, they can use literary licensing to build the show, which means they can make up whatever they want.
02:37:51.952 --> 02:37:56.035
[UNKNOWN]: So as a courtesy, every time they'd write an episode, they would email it to us.
02:37:56.916 --> 02:38:01.519
[UNKNOWN]: And my wife's portraying the show had an actor's play her, so she gets a say so as well.
02:38:03.192 --> 02:38:08.395
[UNKNOWN]: and we'd read through these episodes and, you know, the first one or two and read us like, that didn't happen.
02:38:08.836 --> 02:38:09.556
[UNKNOWN]: This is not true.
02:38:10.157 --> 02:38:11.057
[UNKNOWN]: That person wasn't even there.
02:38:11.117 --> 02:38:13.639
[UNKNOWN]: That person, that's not even a real person, like Colonel Carillo.
02:38:14.039 --> 02:38:15.160
[UNKNOWN]: There was no Colonel Carillo.
02:38:15.720 --> 02:38:16.961
[UNKNOWN]: That's made up character.
02:38:17.822 --> 02:38:22.565
[UNKNOWN]: And so we would call Eric Newman, we talked to him about it and he's like, listen, this is just the way we make it.
02:38:22.585 --> 02:38:24.086
[UNKNOWN]: You know, we got to make it exciting.
02:38:24.126 --> 02:38:25.166
[UNKNOWN]: We got to be dramatic.
02:38:25.186 --> 02:38:28.409
[UNKNOWN]: There's got to be tons of conflict because that's what Burrell's draws in audiences.
02:38:29.574 --> 02:38:33.401
[UNKNOWN]: And after the first few times of trying to fight a battle, you just realize they don't really care.
02:38:35.365 --> 02:38:38.972
[UNKNOWN]: One of the things was when they were shown in the weapons that are used in Narcos, the hang-ons.
02:38:40.190 --> 02:38:42.612
[UNKNOWN]: Who's going to carry a chrome plate revolver?
02:38:43.413 --> 02:38:44.854
[UNKNOWN]: Six inch barrel out there.
02:38:45.275 --> 02:38:46.676
[UNKNOWN]: Nobody, funny, stupid.
02:38:46.956 --> 02:38:49.078
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, a dirty hair, yeah, there you go.
02:38:49.138 --> 02:38:59.087
[UNKNOWN]: But, and so I even took pictures of our weapons and said, guys, these are the, we had this myth and what, Weston Model 659 stainless steel with no hammer.
02:38:59.849 --> 02:39:06.474
[UNKNOWN]: And that's because stainless steel won't rust if you get sweat on it, and the hammer won't if you don't have a hammer, it can't snag on your shirt, sure.
02:39:06.754 --> 02:39:27.829
[UNKNOWN]: When you pull it, I took pictures, I took pictures of the revolvers, we had, well, we didn't take them with us, but we had the 870, the Remington 870s, the AR-15s, Lee, we didn't have some old M1 carbines, we had some mini-oosies, because they would let us use any of those up many, but center pictures of all that stuff, and finally, Eric Coleman, he's like,
02:39:29.411 --> 02:39:32.892
[UNKNOWN]: that the props company in Columbia, that's all they have.
02:39:33.072 --> 02:39:34.233
[UNKNOWN]: They don't have these kind of weapons.
02:39:34.253 --> 02:39:35.233
[UNKNOWN]: So that's what we're going to use.
02:39:35.934 --> 02:39:36.194
[UNKNOWN]: OK.
02:39:37.114 --> 02:39:40.735
[UNKNOWN]: So you spin your wheels, trying to make things more authentic.
02:39:42.096 --> 02:39:52.940
[UNKNOWN]: And there's one funny thing where I think it's the beginning of season two where my wife takes the baby and goes back to Miami.
02:39:53.740 --> 02:39:56.481
[UNKNOWN]: And I get in the fight in the airport bathroom and beat these two guys up.
02:39:56.742 --> 02:39:57.402
[UNKNOWN]: None of that's true.
02:39:58.304 --> 02:40:07.885
[UNKNOWN]: And my wife has always prided herself and never leaving me, you know, that she's thick and thin, dangerous, safe, whatever it is, she's hung right in there with me.
02:40:09.945 --> 02:40:14.749
[UNKNOWN]: So when that episode when they sent it to us, I read through it and I'm like, oh, this is not good.
02:40:16.451 --> 02:40:23.757
[UNKNOWN]: So I read through it and I laid it on the desk and I was doing something I was like, hey, the new episode coming in.
02:40:23.777 --> 02:40:26.199
[UNKNOWN]: I said, yeah, it's in the middle of the desk and she said, what do you think about it?
02:40:26.219 --> 02:40:27.821
[UNKNOWN]: I said, I'm finished reading it yet.
02:40:28.641 --> 02:40:29.442
[UNKNOWN]: So I'm going to read it.
02:40:29.882 --> 02:40:30.483
[UNKNOWN]: Oh, crap.
02:40:31.568 --> 02:40:32.609
[UNKNOWN]: It wasn't five minutes.
02:40:32.649 --> 02:40:35.451
[UNKNOWN]: She comes up and says, she's shaking in my face, did you read this crap?
02:40:35.731 --> 02:40:36.431
[UNKNOWN]: This is not true.
02:40:36.471 --> 02:40:37.472
[UNKNOWN]: You know I never left you.
02:40:37.572 --> 02:40:40.434
[UNKNOWN]: I never left you just stranded down there and said, baby, I don't write it.
02:40:40.474 --> 02:40:41.354
[UNKNOWN]: I know you didn't leave me.
02:40:42.355 --> 02:40:52.822
[UNKNOWN]: So several days after that, Eric calls me, and when I'm on the phone and I walk around the house, you know, just in different rooms, it just helps me concentrate.
02:40:53.843 --> 02:40:55.764
[UNKNOWN]: And she came walking by, she says, who's talking to you?
02:40:55.824 --> 02:40:56.845
[UNKNOWN]: I just nobody, it's nobody.
02:40:57.828 --> 02:40:59.770
[UNKNOWN]: When you say that to your wife, that radar comes out.
02:40:59.890 --> 02:41:02.233
[UNKNOWN]: They start listening, like, why is he saying nobody?
02:41:02.253 --> 02:41:02.773
[UNKNOWN]: Who is that?
02:41:03.474 --> 02:41:05.256
[UNKNOWN]: And finally, she comes over, she says, is that Eric?
02:41:05.756 --> 02:41:06.397
[UNKNOWN]: Give me the phone.
02:41:06.897 --> 02:41:07.858
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
02:41:08.299 --> 02:41:10.561
[UNKNOWN]: That's how she turned Eric up on the phone, they're pretty good.
02:41:10.581 --> 02:41:15.306
[UNKNOWN]: And I can hear him, you know, she's holding the phone away for her, and she's like, Connie, Connie, it's just Hollywood.
02:41:15.346 --> 02:41:17.528
[UNKNOWN]: I know you never, we know you never less, all of that.
02:41:18.767 --> 02:41:24.954
[UNKNOWN]: So therefore, the premiere of Season 2, they flew us out to Hollywood with their wives, you know, treat us very well.
02:41:24.974 --> 02:41:27.496
[UNKNOWN]: I had the limbo's and all this stuff and a red carpet treatment and all that.
02:41:27.897 --> 02:41:34.884
[UNKNOWN]: But the night before the premiere, Eric and his wife took us all out to dinner at this Ritzi Hollywood restaurant, which
02:41:35.875 --> 02:41:39.337
[UNKNOWN]: I'm not a hollywood, I'm not a rodeo drag, kind of guy, you know?
02:41:40.658 --> 02:41:42.520
[UNKNOWN]: And so we're sitting in the restaurant, we get there a little early.
02:41:43.540 --> 02:41:55.169
[UNKNOWN]: And Eric's big man and he and his wife come in the door and he sees the sitting out there and he sees Connie and he's across this whole restaurant, all he has richy people, he's going, Connie, are we okay, are you going to hurt me if I come over there?
02:41:57.130 --> 02:42:01.974
[UNKNOWN]: So just an example about how they never let the truth get in the way of telling a good story.
02:42:02.034 --> 02:42:03.295
[UNKNOWN]: I know.
02:42:03.315 --> 02:42:09.340
[UNKNOWN]: The next question was going to be, is there a single detail that they got wrong that annoys you the most?
02:42:10.261 --> 02:42:11.642
[UNKNOWN]: Would you say that that was it?
02:42:12.182 --> 02:42:13.564
[UNKNOWN]: Well, that annoys Connie the most.
02:42:14.004 --> 02:42:14.905
[UNKNOWN]: The question about that?
02:42:15.585 --> 02:42:16.406
[UNKNOWN]: I know how you are.
02:42:18.322 --> 02:42:24.125
[UNKNOWN]: there that the end of season two, they show him where he's passing class fine information, the most peppers that never happened.
02:42:24.445 --> 02:42:24.645
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
02:42:25.025 --> 02:42:30.127
[UNKNOWN]: But if he was here, he'd tell you that he really didn't care because they were paying him and he signed that bullshit piece of paper.
02:42:30.367 --> 02:42:30.547
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
02:42:30.727 --> 02:42:32.328
[UNKNOWN]: I was already in our contracts.
02:42:32.768 --> 02:42:33.348
[UNKNOWN]: How about for you?
02:42:36.781 --> 02:42:57.887
[UNKNOWN]: They left out one scene that was, they filmed it and they didn't include it, we adopted a second little girl down there, before we left Columbia, and nobody can explain to me why I got cut out, but, you know, they showed her first daughter, and of course the way they showed is not the way it really happened, we just, you know, we went through normal things, but they show, the way they showed it, I'm actually kiddin' that but that little girl, that baby.
02:42:59.568 --> 02:43:01.090
[UNKNOWN]: That's called Kidnapping.
02:43:01.491 --> 02:43:02.151
[UNKNOWN]: I don't get everywhere.
02:43:02.171 --> 02:43:02.872
[UNKNOWN]: That's called Kidnapping.
02:43:02.952 --> 02:43:03.513
[UNKNOWN]: Absolutely.
02:43:05.055 --> 02:43:09.600
[UNKNOWN]: Your relationship at this point with hobbyers is good.
02:43:10.261 --> 02:43:10.801
[UNKNOWN]: Absolutely.
02:43:11.042 --> 02:43:17.209
[UNKNOWN]: And I guess, did you guys from that point on up until present day, always stay real close?
02:43:17.908 --> 02:43:20.929
[UNKNOWN]: No, no, when we came back, we left Columbia.
02:43:20.949 --> 02:43:24.370
[UNKNOWN]: I got stationed in Greensboro, North Carolina, and he went to San Juan, Puerto Rico.
02:43:26.130 --> 02:43:33.132
[UNKNOWN]: Our paths with cross, and you know, occasionally we might talk to each other in a phone, but I mean, we might go years and not talk to each other.
02:43:34.232 --> 02:43:44.555
[UNKNOWN]: And then as we both got promoted on up in the ranks, we started seeing each other more frequently as executive meetings, and we used to have what we call sack conferences, especially in charge conferences.
02:43:49.578 --> 02:44:06.613
[UNKNOWN]: And actually, I had a friend in Northern Virginia that isn't an award-winning producer himself at a smaller level, but still, he's one of some Emmys, and he introduced me to two different producers at different times that wanted to do something with our story.
02:44:07.273 --> 02:44:14.239
[UNKNOWN]: But then when I'd call hobby here and I said, hey man, it looks like there's an interest here, because we didn't think anybody had been so long ago, but he was interested in Pablo Escobor.
02:44:15.582 --> 02:44:19.704
[UNKNOWN]: And both of them wanted to take our story and make political statements out of it.
02:44:20.165 --> 02:44:22.246
[UNKNOWN]: And I do my best to stay a political.
02:44:22.306 --> 02:44:23.907
[UNKNOWN]: I don't care about politics.
02:44:23.947 --> 02:44:25.788
[UNKNOWN]: I think it's divisive for our country.
02:44:26.488 --> 02:44:29.710
[UNKNOWN]: It's just to paint the butts what it is nowadays.
02:44:30.691 --> 02:44:33.412
[UNKNOWN]: So you get, but you get your hopes up and then you find out what it is.
02:44:33.432 --> 02:44:34.733
[UNKNOWN]: It's like, no, we're not doing that.
02:44:35.914 --> 02:44:37.515
[UNKNOWN]: And so,
02:44:39.491 --> 02:44:50.194
[UNKNOWN]: In 2013, this retired Marine that we had worked with then a Columbia call, I mean, I had talked to him over 20 years, and so we catch up on the phone and I said, what are you doing now?
02:44:50.614 --> 02:44:56.295
[UNKNOWN]: If you're in town, let's go grab dinner and he said, Murphy, I live here in DC, because I was a son of the DC back then.
02:44:57.316 --> 02:45:02.537
[UNKNOWN]: And he said, the reason I'm calling he said, there's producer in Hollywood wants to talk to you and have you about the Eskabar story.
02:45:03.415 --> 02:45:05.716
[UNKNOWN]: And this marine is named Gilmacklin, good guy.
02:45:06.597 --> 02:45:12.400
[UNKNOWN]: And I said, Gil, this man, we've been down to Shroad before, and you get your hopes up that somebody's really interested and turns out they're not.
02:45:12.460 --> 02:45:15.161
[UNKNOWN]: They just want to do something for their own glory.
02:45:15.181 --> 02:45:18.703
[UNKNOWN]: And I said, tell the guy that you're talking to, thanks for no thanks.
02:45:19.463 --> 02:45:23.285
[UNKNOWN]: Well, you know, marine, as well as I do, and they can be a little bit colorful on their language.
02:45:24.045 --> 02:45:26.667
[UNKNOWN]: After he tuned me up on a fail, and I'm like, okay, I'll call the guy.
02:45:27.785 --> 02:45:38.655
[UNKNOWN]: You know, as I call Eric, and this was in February of 2013, he gives me a speel on the phone and I said, you know what, thank you, but no, thank you.
02:45:39.175 --> 02:45:41.738
[UNKNOWN]: And he got real quiet, and I finally, like, are you still there?
02:45:41.758 --> 02:45:43.760
[UNKNOWN]: And he said, I can't believe he just turned me down.
02:45:44.720 --> 02:45:49.104
[UNKNOWN]: I said, well, now explain to you, we've been down this road before, and you guys promised the world nobody ever comes through.
02:45:50.426 --> 02:45:50.806
[UNKNOWN]: He said,
02:45:52.493 --> 02:45:54.673
[UNKNOWN]: This, I'm going to be in DC next month in March.
02:45:54.933 --> 02:46:00.234
[UNKNOWN]: I'm bringing a couple of writers, would you come and have dinner with us and let me just lay everything on table for you?
02:46:00.694 --> 02:46:02.175
[UNKNOWN]: Tell you what it is, what our plans are.
02:46:02.195 --> 02:46:03.495
[UNKNOWN]: And then if you say it's no, it's no.
02:46:04.855 --> 02:46:05.735
[UNKNOWN]: And it's no kid, Mike.
02:46:07.316 --> 02:46:10.176
[UNKNOWN]: I'm thinking, that's going to be a free dinner to really nice restaurant.
02:46:11.596 --> 02:46:12.717
[UNKNOWN]: And so I did, and it was.
02:46:12.817 --> 02:46:14.097
[UNKNOWN]: We went to a French restaurant.
02:46:14.717 --> 02:46:15.717
[UNKNOWN]: I didn't even know it was on the menu.
02:46:15.737 --> 02:46:18.138
[UNKNOWN]: I had to order scouts, because that's the only thing I knew what was on the menu.
02:46:21.545 --> 02:46:24.327
[UNKNOWN]: After 38 years as a cop, you learn to pick people out.
02:46:24.627 --> 02:46:26.089
[UNKNOWN]: So I know I'm looking for three guys.
02:46:26.429 --> 02:46:27.370
[UNKNOWN]: They sound young.
02:46:27.410 --> 02:46:28.811
[UNKNOWN]: I don't know what they look like.
02:46:29.731 --> 02:46:32.513
[UNKNOWN]: But I come in the restaurant and I pick them out.
02:46:32.934 --> 02:46:35.336
[UNKNOWN]: So then there's a major D and I've got to get by him and all that.
02:46:35.996 --> 02:46:39.759
[UNKNOWN]: And so I walked out of the table and I leaned down the table and I said, gentlemen, I'm a police officer.
02:46:40.259 --> 02:46:42.101
[UNKNOWN]: I've got a tip that one of you's holding cocaine.
02:46:42.141 --> 02:46:43.802
[UNKNOWN]: I need all three of you to get up on the wall right now.
02:46:45.163 --> 02:46:47.405
[UNKNOWN]: And the two writers look at me with their eyes wide.
02:46:47.425 --> 02:46:49.466
[UNKNOWN]: And they're backing up and Eric starts laughing.
02:46:52.338 --> 02:46:57.925
[UNKNOWN]: So it's, I don't know, I don't know, I'm an idiot, you know, I've never read a rule in the government, says you can't have fun at work, right?
02:46:58.185 --> 02:46:58.605
[UNKNOWN]: I love it.
02:46:59.026 --> 02:47:02.930
[UNKNOWN]: So had good dinner, later everything out the end of the night, he said, what do you think?
02:47:02.950 --> 02:47:06.114
[UNKNOWN]: And I said, let me talk to Havier, and this sounds like maybe something we want to pursue.
02:47:06.134 --> 02:47:09.898
[UNKNOWN]: And the last thing he said, he said, why are you so hesitant to tell your story?
02:47:10.706 --> 02:47:16.211
[UNKNOWN]: And I said because the last thing we want to happen is anybody would ever go over five Pablo Escobar because this guy's a mass murderer.
02:47:16.752 --> 02:47:17.693
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, he's just a thug.
02:47:17.733 --> 02:47:19.754
[UNKNOWN]: He's there's nothing good about this guy whatsoever.
02:47:20.375 --> 02:47:26.441
[UNKNOWN]: And that night, Eric Promise me, he said, if this thing ever happens, I promise you, we will never do anything to go over five Pablo Escobar.
02:47:26.481 --> 02:47:28.362
[UNKNOWN]: And to this day, he's lived up to his word.
02:47:29.523 --> 02:47:30.645
[UNKNOWN]: So that was in March.
02:47:31.886 --> 02:47:34.608
[UNKNOWN]: By May, we signed contracts with Netflix.
02:47:35.925 --> 02:47:40.287
[UNKNOWN]: At the end of June, we retired, and in July, we were sitting in Hollywood right in the first season.
02:47:40.667 --> 02:47:42.207
[UNKNOWN]: Wow, man, a little whirlwind.
02:47:42.707 --> 02:47:43.228
[UNKNOWN]: It was quick.
02:47:43.448 --> 02:47:44.928
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
02:47:45.668 --> 02:47:52.591
[UNKNOWN]: Have you, I guess before I asked that, um, overall are you happy with and satisfied with the Netflix series?
02:47:53.311 --> 02:47:53.951
[UNKNOWN]: Very much so.
02:47:56.312 --> 02:48:00.134
[UNKNOWN]: It's not all real, you'd ask me early how much I was true and I'd never answered you.
02:48:00.154 --> 02:48:07.757
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, we're portrayed in the first two seasons and we were actually paid consultants for the first two seasons.
02:48:08.377 --> 02:48:15.580
[UNKNOWN]: Every episode subsequent to that has real life, DEA agents portrayed in the show, but we were just in a role where we made introductions.
02:48:16.520 --> 02:48:19.084
[UNKNOWN]: But so we did our own analysis, first two seasons.
02:48:19.184 --> 02:48:21.327
[UNKNOWN]: We figured that about a third of what you see is true.
02:48:21.347 --> 02:48:23.329
[UNKNOWN]: Those events happen and they're portrayed correctly.
02:48:24.591 --> 02:48:29.217
[UNKNOWN]: Second, those events happen, but they've been greatly dramatized.
02:48:30.775 --> 02:48:32.677
[UNKNOWN]: you know, it's just not the way it happened.
02:48:32.817 --> 02:48:35.419
[UNKNOWN]: The premise of the idea happened, but it's not shown correctly.
02:48:36.000 --> 02:48:38.983
[UNKNOWN]: And then at last there just straight up, make believe Hollywood.
02:48:39.684 --> 02:48:44.408
[UNKNOWN]: They didn't, you know, scarios did not break in their house and sacrifice my cattle in the front door.
02:48:44.448 --> 02:48:46.110
[UNKNOWN]: The cat did die in Columbia, but he was old.
02:48:46.130 --> 02:48:46.830
[UNKNOWN]: He had a heart attack.
02:48:47.551 --> 02:48:47.751
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
02:48:47.771 --> 02:48:51.395
[UNKNOWN]: Hover, you know, wasn't passing class, finalist, informationalist Peppies.
02:48:52.176 --> 02:48:54.238
[UNKNOWN]: I was never kidnapped by the Cali Cartel.
02:48:54.538 --> 02:48:55.439
[UNKNOWN]: You're wife, didn't leave you.
02:48:55.779 --> 02:49:05.164
[UNKNOWN]: It's like, that's a big, but uh, but an interesting point, if you go back, episode 10 of season 1 is where they show that I get kidnapped.
02:49:06.392 --> 02:49:14.256
[UNKNOWN]: And so the actor that's playing me, we were in Bogota, the Netflix flew me down and I brought my wife and daughters with me because they hadn't been back since they were little girls.
02:49:15.197 --> 02:49:17.218
[UNKNOWN]: And Netflix really took care of us.
02:49:17.538 --> 02:49:18.919
[UNKNOWN]: Eric made sure we were taking care of.
02:49:19.719 --> 02:49:26.803
[UNKNOWN]: And so, boy, Hodorok, the actor plays me comes to me one day and he says, what would you say about putting Monica and Mandy my daughters in a scene?
02:49:27.882 --> 02:49:33.924
[UNKNOWN]: So I think I'm okay with it and I got check with mom and she was good with it and the girls thought it was exciting.
02:49:34.564 --> 02:49:42.826
[UNKNOWN]: So in that scene where Boyd is pulling into the driveway has to stop and they've got all his extras walking up and down the street and he motions for these two girls to come in front of him.
02:49:43.306 --> 02:49:47.027
[UNKNOWN]: Well, the cameraman is in the back seat of the Bronco film and him from this angle.
02:49:47.707 --> 02:49:50.808
[UNKNOWN]: Okay, so if he makes a motion with his hands, I can't cut it out.
02:49:50.908 --> 02:49:51.728
[UNKNOWN]: That's the reason he did it.
02:49:52.188 --> 02:49:53.348
[UNKNOWN]: And you'll see him at two daughters.
02:49:53.908 --> 02:49:54.829
[UNKNOWN]: Walk in front of the car.
02:49:55.069 --> 02:49:55.849
[UNKNOWN]: That's awesome.
02:49:56.009 --> 02:50:00.350
[UNKNOWN]: And then when Narcos came out, the girls come up and say, hey, dad, I'm in Narcos, are you?
02:50:00.830 --> 02:50:04.251
[UNKNOWN]: That's a kid's bus in your shop.
02:50:04.611 --> 02:50:05.591
[UNKNOWN]: Oh, yeah.
02:50:05.631 --> 02:50:10.292
[UNKNOWN]: How do you think Boyd and Pedro did in terms of nailing your characters?
02:50:11.422 --> 02:50:15.424
[UNKNOWN]: I think they did phenomenal, you know, boy grew up in Eastern Kentucky.
02:50:15.444 --> 02:50:16.304
[UNKNOWN]: He talks like me.
02:50:17.645 --> 02:50:18.605
[UNKNOWN]: We're still friends today.
02:50:18.625 --> 02:50:19.846
[UNKNOWN]: We still stay in touch.
02:50:20.466 --> 02:50:24.008
[UNKNOWN]: Pedro had already done Game of Thrones, but he had blown up like he has now.
02:50:24.788 --> 02:50:27.769
[UNKNOWN]: So we'd like to tell him that, you know, we made your career.
02:50:29.090 --> 02:50:31.711
[UNKNOWN]: But I mean, did it feel like you were watching yourself?
02:50:32.999 --> 02:50:34.360
[UNKNOWN]: No, it never felt like that, yeah.
02:50:34.901 --> 02:50:36.222
[UNKNOWN]: It's just a good action series.
02:50:38.564 --> 02:50:45.970
[UNKNOWN]: What we did do is, before they started filming, we talked to Eric Newman, he talked to Netflix, got them to fund everything.
02:50:46.610 --> 02:50:54.056
[UNKNOWN]: Then we went to the Administrator of DEA, who was Michelle Lynn Hart at the time, and said, Michelle, you know what we're working on, because they everybody knew about the Netflix thing coming.
02:50:55.017 --> 02:50:59.601
[UNKNOWN]: And what would you say if we brought the two actors to the DEA Academy for a week,
02:51:03.530 --> 02:51:03.990
[UNKNOWN]: Thumbs up.
02:51:04.350 --> 02:51:04.871
[UNKNOWN]: That's cool.
02:51:04.971 --> 02:51:06.331
[UNKNOWN]: So they flew in on the Sunday night.
02:51:06.791 --> 02:51:09.432
[UNKNOWN]: I picked everybody up to airport, I have your flew in from San Antonio.
02:51:10.333 --> 02:51:12.234
[UNKNOWN]: Monday we went to the quant, too.
02:51:12.254 --> 02:51:18.816
[UNKNOWN]: We went to headquarters on Monday and they got all kinds of briefings from Intel and enforcement and operations.
02:51:18.836 --> 02:51:21.577
[UNKNOWN]: We went through the DA museum and all that stuff.
02:51:21.618 --> 02:51:24.719
[UNKNOWN]: And then Tuesday they started to academy through Friday.
02:51:25.299 --> 02:51:27.660
[UNKNOWN]: And they had, they made them sit through one classroom.
02:51:28.000 --> 02:51:28.881
[UNKNOWN]: We all sat through that.
02:51:29.001 --> 02:51:32.022
[UNKNOWN]: It was a bad day and as it was when I went through the academy, but it's classroom.
02:51:33.022 --> 02:51:38.343
[UNKNOWN]: And then they had them on the reins for a half a day and let them, they even got to shoot the Tommy guns, I've never gotten to shoot a Tommy gun.
02:51:40.024 --> 02:51:42.804
[UNKNOWN]: Taught him how to do high-risk felony stops.
02:51:43.524 --> 02:51:47.105
[UNKNOWN]: Taught him how to do static and dynamic entries and surveilances.
02:51:47.605 --> 02:51:48.585
[UNKNOWN]: Had him work undercover.
02:51:49.665 --> 02:51:51.806
[UNKNOWN]: So there's Hogan's alley there at the FBI Academy.
02:51:51.826 --> 02:51:55.827
[UNKNOWN]: Back then, the EA went through the FBI Academy facility.
02:52:03.808 --> 02:52:12.071
[UNKNOWN]: You're going up to this house to buy two ounces of math you've bought from him before Don't fret the money and don't go in the house because you're gonna house surveillance can't see you.
02:52:12.091 --> 02:52:24.316
[UNKNOWN]: That's a dangerous situation So Pedro where I and Pedro is more nervous to avoid and so he goes up and of course there's actors in there and they're like Now I'm gonna come on in the house everybody can see her business at her front porch come on in
02:52:24.922 --> 02:52:26.844
[UNKNOWN]: Nah, I'm not coming in the house, I got the money right here.
02:52:26.864 --> 02:52:28.805
[UNKNOWN]: Let me see the dope, let's get this over with.
02:52:29.446 --> 02:52:34.149
[UNKNOWN]: And they're like, they're almost re-snout to grab him and he's like, screw it, I'm walking away.
02:52:34.930 --> 02:52:38.853
[UNKNOWN]: Because people think, dope, deers think cops will never walk away from the drug deal.
02:52:39.473 --> 02:52:40.754
[UNKNOWN]: That's one of the best things you could do.
02:52:40.774 --> 02:52:42.576
[UNKNOWN]: Because they'll chase you down.
02:52:43.356 --> 02:52:48.180
[UNKNOWN]: So Pedro does the right thing in the guy's, okay, okay, here, let's do the deal and he walks away.
02:52:48.200 --> 02:52:49.561
[UNKNOWN]: Well, he did exactly what he was supposed to do.
02:52:50.302 --> 02:52:51.603
[UNKNOWN]: Well, boy comes up for his turn.
02:52:52.762 --> 02:53:06.142
[UNKNOWN]: And boy, he's, he's cool, he's laid back, you know, and he's, he's, he's won't do the right thing and look cool doing it, and so he goes up on the porch and we're now inside the house and we're administratively not part of the scenario, but we're in there to watch.
02:53:07.324 --> 02:53:09.105
[UNKNOWN]: And he comes to front door and cast this.
02:53:09.125 --> 02:53:11.007
[UNKNOWN]: Come on in, everybody can see our business out here.
02:53:11.027 --> 02:53:16.130
[UNKNOWN]: My neighbors are nosy, they'll call the cops on us and boy says, OK, it comes in the house.
02:53:16.270 --> 02:53:17.711
[UNKNOWN]: That's probably not what I mean.
02:53:18.732 --> 02:53:22.295
[UNKNOWN]: So he goes there when he's sitting on the couch and he sees us in there.
02:53:22.335 --> 02:53:23.736
[UNKNOWN]: We're telling, we're not part of this.
02:53:23.756 --> 02:53:24.556
[UNKNOWN]: We're just here to observe.
02:53:26.497 --> 02:53:29.880
[UNKNOWN]: And I think that put pressure on him, because now he's trying to be cool and work on the cover.
02:53:29.920 --> 02:53:33.102
[UNKNOWN]: And he knows who hobby or an hour will get to be friends.
02:53:33.763 --> 02:53:34.043
[UNKNOWN]: And so
02:53:36.083 --> 02:53:41.928
[UNKNOWN]: Boyd is talking to a bad guy, and all of a sudden this huge guy, biggest clent Bruce comes out.
02:53:42.109 --> 02:53:47.674
[UNKNOWN]: I'm just a mountain of a man, who know you, you know, I don't want to use the language, but how are you?
02:53:47.734 --> 02:53:51.637
[UNKNOWN]: What are you doing to my house and she's cussing him out and boys like, hey, it's cool, man.
02:53:51.698 --> 02:53:53.960
[UNKNOWN]: I've been, I've done business here before, everything's good.
02:53:53.980 --> 02:54:01.667
[UNKNOWN]: We're just, I'm just doing a little re-up and he's trying to play it off, and the guy comes over and grabs him by the shoulders and stands in what, passing down and finds his undercover gun.
02:54:02.493 --> 02:54:03.653
[UNKNOWN]: You brought a gun in my house.
02:54:03.713 --> 02:54:04.654
[UNKNOWN]: I'm a convicted felon.
02:54:04.714 --> 02:54:10.575
[UNKNOWN]: I could go back to prison for this and just be racing really bad and Boyd is trying to play it cool.
02:54:11.356 --> 02:54:13.336
[UNKNOWN]: And he's kind of looking at us like, are you all going to help me?
02:54:15.177 --> 02:54:16.157
[UNKNOWN]: You got yourself into it.
02:54:16.177 --> 02:54:16.997
[UNKNOWN]: You got to get yourself out.
02:54:17.337 --> 02:54:18.418
[UNKNOWN]: It's a big guy leaves.
02:54:18.998 --> 02:54:22.799
[UNKNOWN]: And then after about 30 seconds, he comes back and shoots Boyd in the back of the head with his own gun.
02:54:23.679 --> 02:54:25.100
[UNKNOWN]: Boyd fall, you know, it's blanks.
02:54:25.540 --> 02:54:26.780
[UNKNOWN]: But Boyd falls off the couch.
02:54:27.360 --> 02:54:28.761
[UNKNOWN]: I thought he crapped his pants, but he didn't.
02:54:29.547 --> 02:54:38.114
[UNKNOWN]: So at the end of the week, the audiovisual department at the Academy had created this sign and it's our four pictures, it's Boyd and Pedro and me and Havier.
02:54:39.015 --> 02:54:42.077
[UNKNOWN]: And I believe we're not in the DE Academy, there's a bar.
02:54:42.518 --> 02:54:44.219
[UNKNOWN]: There's one DEF behind the Academy also.
02:54:44.880 --> 02:54:48.903
[UNKNOWN]: And this hangs in the EA bar and now it's called the Golden Eagle, there's a name for a bar.
02:54:49.724 --> 02:54:52.326
[UNKNOWN]: And we each autographed it, put a saying on there.
02:54:54.127 --> 02:55:14.447
[UNKNOWN]: we're boys sounded he said whatever you do don't go in the house so i mean what a great guy they're just those two guys and got it played escapar was phenomenal too yeah Wagner more just unbelievable yeah such a good series and uh you know just such an incredible story um have you been back to Columbia since then yeah lots a lot
02:55:14.917 --> 02:55:29.039
[UNKNOWN]: We do, we don't do speaking events to Columbians, but there are American groups that want to go to Columbia and sell their hires to come down and do the Escobar presentation because it's a steep and everything, and right.
02:55:29.580 --> 02:55:33.040
[UNKNOWN]: So we were, we were Cartagena once this year and Cartagena twice last year.
02:55:33.220 --> 02:55:38.301
[UNKNOWN]: We filmed in Mediine one time, and we've been bokeh to a few times.
02:55:38.681 --> 02:55:41.662
[UNKNOWN]: Would you say they're now compared to when you were there as a D.A.
02:55:41.842 --> 02:55:43.342
[UNKNOWN]: agent, it is a night and day different.
02:55:43.893 --> 02:55:45.395
[UNKNOWN]: Absolutely, especially a Bediene.
02:55:46.115 --> 02:55:57.205
[UNKNOWN]: It's, if people are looking for a place to vacation, a highly recommended Medine, a highly recommend Cartagena, Bogota has a lot of history there with the presidential powers.
02:55:57.225 --> 02:55:58.587
[UNKNOWN]: You can see the changing of the guard.
02:55:58.607 --> 02:55:59.828
[UNKNOWN]: They got the gold museum.
02:56:00.668 --> 02:56:04.872
[UNKNOWN]: But Medine is just, they call it the city of eternal spring.
02:56:04.992 --> 02:56:07.174
[UNKNOWN]: It's like the flower capital of the world.
02:56:08.618 --> 02:56:21.809
[UNKNOWN]: They've destroyed some of the things that were associated with the Escobars like the Monaco building is where his family live They've imploded that so it's no longer there But it's a big city and it's just like any city in any state.
02:56:21.829 --> 02:56:22.590
[UNKNOWN]: There's part of the city.
02:56:22.610 --> 02:56:32.198
[UNKNOWN]: You don't go to So if you go down and you know always be aware of your surroundings and and Do not be disrespectful because they're a proud country.
02:56:32.538 --> 02:56:34.800
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, even mal-design
02:56:36.498 --> 02:56:41.459
[UNKNOWN]: He encouraged them, they went to Cartagena and the Rosario Islands and love fell in love with it.
02:56:41.719 --> 02:56:46.501
[UNKNOWN]: Our oldest daughter has been to Cartagena and Mediene, and she fell in love with its beautiful place.
02:56:46.681 --> 02:56:48.281
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that's super cool.
02:56:49.561 --> 02:57:03.665
[UNKNOWN]: Coming back from that, how do you go from one of the one of if not the biggest successful operation in DEA history to being a regular DEA agent again, and what did the rest of your career look like?
02:57:05.353 --> 02:57:21.920
[UNKNOWN]: You know, when I got to some of leaving Columbia, Pablo's killed December 93, I PCS back to the United States in June, June, 1994, to Greensboro, I'd never seen crack cocaine until I got to Greensboro, North Carolina.
02:57:24.561 --> 02:57:27.303
[UNKNOWN]: We only had five agents in the office, counting me in no task force.
02:57:27.563 --> 02:57:32.765
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, you can't do surveillance, you can't do a raid, you can't do anything with five people.
02:57:34.628 --> 02:57:44.816
[UNKNOWN]: excuse me, three of the five people were kind of retired in place anyway, older agents, but they knew I had come back from Columbia, but I never talked about escort.
02:57:45.676 --> 02:57:56.825
[UNKNOWN]: You know, if people ask me questions, even today, I won't talk about, I won't bring it up, but if you ask me, I'll tell you, I don't hold back, it's not a secret, I just don't feel the need, I feel like I'm bragging when I'm talking about it.
02:57:58.045 --> 02:58:05.692
[UNKNOWN]: They took a long time to start doing interviews like this because you feel like you're just taking credit for things that you really don't deserve credit for.
02:58:07.073 --> 02:58:11.857
[UNKNOWN]: We promote it every presentation we do around the world that the true heroes of this is the Columbia National Police.
02:58:12.458 --> 02:58:12.918
[UNKNOWN]: Not us.
02:58:13.499 --> 02:58:16.321
[UNKNOWN]: We're in a support role with it's them because they took their country back.
02:58:21.720 --> 02:58:22.281
[UNKNOWN]: I don't know.
02:58:23.102 --> 02:58:27.270
[UNKNOWN]: It's just kind of embarrassing, I guess.
02:58:27.310 --> 02:58:29.293
[UNKNOWN]: Your humility shines through again.
02:58:30.155 --> 02:58:31.998
[UNKNOWN]: Well, and it's funny because there's
02:58:34.372 --> 02:58:44.536
[UNKNOWN]: When we took the two actors to Quantico, so DEA's public affairs, they're involved in everything, and so there's always an agent sound in there, and the agent that was the sound, they're Matt Barden.
02:58:45.336 --> 02:58:56.720
[UNKNOWN]: I knew Matt when he was in Orlando, when I was in Greensboro, we were working his Haitian group, and it had gone, you know, worked in all the way back to Orlando, you know, it's an all story, but he and I have been best friends for a long, long time.
02:58:57.460 --> 02:59:06.008
[UNKNOWN]: And so when we go to Quantico with the actors, he calls me Stevie, he's a big man, he said, so Stevie, what is this all about?
02:59:06.028 --> 02:59:07.209
[UNKNOWN]: And what have you got to do with this?
02:59:07.249 --> 02:59:10.512
[UNKNOWN]: And I said, what's about the Pablo Escobar case and taking down the Medine Cartel?
02:59:10.532 --> 02:59:12.894
[UNKNOWN]: And he said, okay, what do you have to do with it?
02:59:12.914 --> 02:59:20.061
[UNKNOWN]: I said, well, I mean, I were the lead agents down there running the operations at Medine and live in the club, cops up there for 18 months.
02:59:21.255 --> 02:59:27.357
[UNKNOWN]: You never told me this all these years and I didn't know this about you and and that happens frequently.
02:59:27.657 --> 02:59:34.179
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, and it's like you know at the beginning you asked me what my favorite saying is if you got a teaching on horn it's probably not worth tuning.
02:59:34.920 --> 02:59:42.242
[UNKNOWN]: I just feel like that you do a job you come back to the United States I got to Greensboro their problems crack cocaine.
02:59:42.302 --> 02:59:42.842
[UNKNOWN]: Well, okay.
02:59:42.862 --> 02:59:44.183
[UNKNOWN]: That's work crack cocaine cases
02:59:45.109 --> 02:59:53.642
[UNKNOWN]: I did one called OCDF case, Oregon Mass Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force, which was a part of DOJ that no longer exists.
02:59:55.059 --> 02:59:58.821
[UNKNOWN]: We like we charge 72 people federally in the lower two years.
02:59:59.681 --> 03:00:01.382
[UNKNOWN]: So the work is everywhere.
03:00:01.662 --> 03:00:04.283
[UNKNOWN]: It's just, you know, this is your responsibility now.
03:00:04.943 --> 03:00:06.024
[UNKNOWN]: And you know how bosses are?
03:00:06.744 --> 03:00:09.225
[UNKNOWN]: You know, that was great, which did yesterday, what did you do for me today?
03:00:09.405 --> 03:00:10.746
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I earned it every day.
03:00:11.266 --> 03:00:12.547
[UNKNOWN]: Yep.
03:00:12.687 --> 03:00:16.048
[UNKNOWN]: Could you bullet point kind of the rest of your career as an agent?
03:00:16.188 --> 03:00:16.409
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
03:00:16.669 --> 03:00:19.510
[UNKNOWN]: So Greensboro worked as an agent there.
03:00:19.530 --> 03:00:21.111
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, I just love that I was working
03:00:24.293 --> 03:00:36.723
[UNKNOWN]: From there, got my first promotion to group supervisor, moved to Atlanta, ran the group supervisor in the hottest section there for less than a year, and then I took over the mobile enforcement team.
03:00:37.364 --> 03:00:38.525
[UNKNOWN]: Did that for two and a half years.
03:00:38.545 --> 03:00:48.213
[UNKNOWN]: And that's where DEA would work with state and local agencies in the Atlanta field division at that time was Georgia Tennessee in the Carolinas.
03:00:49.335 --> 03:00:58.061
[UNKNOWN]: and we would go out work with shares or chiefs or both or even state agencies and we weren't going after the biggest threat drug dealers were going after the most violent.
03:00:58.954 --> 03:01:01.195
[UNKNOWN]: And I could tell you, that was very satisfying.
03:01:01.755 --> 03:01:04.756
[UNKNOWN]: It's not big dope, it really isn't.
03:01:04.776 --> 03:01:09.437
[UNKNOWN]: You can build a conspiracy case and maybe get it up to big dope, but you're taking a real scum bag, so.
03:01:09.617 --> 03:01:10.277
[UNKNOWN]: Exactly.
03:01:10.737 --> 03:01:12.638
[UNKNOWN]: And I'll never forget this.
03:01:12.938 --> 03:01:16.939
[UNKNOWN]: We would take people out when we do the roundup after, we'd go there for four to six months undercover.
03:01:17.699 --> 03:01:22.060
[UNKNOWN]: And there were times when we'd come out of neighborhoods, when we'd none of the big roundup, and citizens are out there.
03:01:22.887 --> 03:01:27.788
[UNKNOWN]: About time, thank you so much, you know, and you want somebody to make you proud.
03:01:28.288 --> 03:01:29.809
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, an event like that really does.
03:01:29.849 --> 03:01:32.209
[UNKNOWN]: It's like, you know, we had a positive impact on this community.
03:01:32.989 --> 03:01:38.251
[UNKNOWN]: So from there, if you take the management path and DEA, you have to do a headquarters assignment.
03:01:38.271 --> 03:01:50.614
[UNKNOWN]: So I was lucky enough to get a sign to, I say lucky, I don't believe in luck or coincidence, I got a sign to the Special Operations Division, which is a direct support of all major DEA investigations around the world.
03:01:50.654 --> 03:01:51.134
[UNKNOWN]: So you're not.
03:01:51.949 --> 03:01:57.451
[UNKNOWN]: You're not like a headquarters home where you get a sign to statistics or something just makes you want to eat your gun.
03:01:58.552 --> 03:02:12.277
[UNKNOWN]: So while I was there, staff coordinator for a couple of years over the care being a South American section, then I got moved to head of training at SOD, where we teach law enforcement had to do wire taps.
03:02:12.317 --> 03:02:18.680
[UNKNOWN]: And back then, we were built a new program on how to do wire taps on internet account and email addresses and IP addresses and all that stuff.
03:02:19.680 --> 03:02:44.406
[UNKNOWN]: then got promoted to assistant special agent charge over the Mexico Central America section, and then the guy who was my ASAC when I first got to SOD, Derek Malts came back as a special agent charge, and so he brought me up to be as executive assistant, or as I lovingly refer to it his butt boy, which I love because now I was sitting in meetings with him where you get to see
03:02:49.767 --> 03:02:55.228
[UNKNOWN]: inside the executive side of DEA and so much real exciting and some of it was disappointed to be honest with you.
03:02:55.989 --> 03:03:07.891
[UNKNOWN]: But from there transfer back to the field at five years in SOD transfer back to Atlanta as an ASAC assistant special agent charge, it got to actually build out the OCDF strike force.
03:03:08.211 --> 03:03:10.052
[UNKNOWN]: And so this is a multi agency facility.
03:03:10.072 --> 03:03:11.832
[UNKNOWN]: I had two DEA groups and
03:03:16.897 --> 03:03:20.720
[UNKNOWN]: U.S. Marshall's group and I risk group and then a ton of state and local officers.
03:03:21.540 --> 03:03:25.703
[UNKNOWN]: And I had the best investigators of anybody in Atlanta, Metro Atlanta.
03:03:25.743 --> 03:03:28.645
[UNKNOWN]: Those guys were just kicking butt, taking names every single day.
03:03:29.406 --> 03:03:30.307
[UNKNOWN]: Had a blast doing that.
03:03:31.387 --> 03:03:36.391
[UNKNOWN]: And then got promoted up to Senior Executive Service and went back to Washington.
03:03:38.072 --> 03:03:45.958
[UNKNOWN]: ran the Office of Special Intelligence, which is kind of a misnomer because the words Murphy and Intelligence don't go together in the same sentence.
03:03:47.340 --> 03:03:58.989
[UNKNOWN]: But that was all class-fied, which I still can't talk about this day, had maybe some stuff to do that, that Edward Snow, and that he divulged everybody when he became a traitor to our country.
03:04:00.570 --> 03:04:06.535
[UNKNOWN]: And after a year that they moved me over to be the new director, special agent charge of the OCDF Fusion Center.
03:04:06.575 --> 03:04:08.817
[UNKNOWN]: So I was detailed to DOJ in my last few years.
03:04:08.877 --> 03:04:27.652
[UNKNOWN]: And it was a director over a multi-agency facility that was a true fusion center where all these federal agencies and foreign partners, the five-eye partners were all in there as well, would bring in all their drug-related intelligence and information, and put it into one massive computer system,
03:04:28.312 --> 03:04:46.419
[UNKNOWN]: to where we could work hand in hand with special operations division to support investigations in the field by the confliction, by putting, not competing, but putting investigations that are going after the same target together, so you stop waste and resources of manpower and taxpayer dollars.
03:04:49.040 --> 03:04:51.761
[UNKNOWN]: And then Netflix came along and I pulled a pin in 2013.
03:04:53.662 --> 03:05:00.123
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I want to fascinated and career and just one thing after the next doing some pretty amazing stuff.
03:05:02.264 --> 03:05:03.164
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you for saying that.
03:05:03.324 --> 03:05:06.245
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm just doing a job.
03:05:06.365 --> 03:05:07.345
[UNKNOWN]: Well, I was.
03:05:07.525 --> 03:05:09.005
[UNKNOWN]: I think there was way more to with than that.
03:05:09.065 --> 03:05:17.187
[UNKNOWN]: But I'm curious, what would you tell a brand new DA agent stepping into into the organization?
03:05:18.272 --> 03:05:25.116
[UNKNOWN]: You know, I mean, I were going to the DE Academy two or three times a year talking to we call it basic agent trainees or bats.
03:05:25.797 --> 03:05:37.844
[UNKNOWN]: And so we would get to address the bat classes after dinner one night and we'd do our presentation and then do a Q&A and then the sac would always ask us, you know, having words of advice words of wisdom for these guys.
03:05:38.704 --> 03:05:42.087
[UNKNOWN]: And my comment is always, I'm jealous of you guys.
03:05:43.055 --> 03:05:48.899
[UNKNOWN]: because I know what you're getting ready to experience and you're getting ready to have the time of your life.
03:05:49.760 --> 03:05:55.184
[UNKNOWN]: But I also tell them, don't, you already know this, but don't think this is a nine to five money through a Friday job.
03:05:55.604 --> 03:05:59.347
[UNKNOWN]: This isn't going to become your lifestyle and your family has to be on board with this.
03:05:59.987 --> 03:06:01.068
[UNKNOWN]: Because you may be gone.
03:06:02.769 --> 03:06:06.352
[UNKNOWN]: There was one time I think I was gone from boat, I didn't see my wife and daughter for.
03:06:07.466 --> 03:06:16.870
[UNKNOWN]: five or six weeks, you know, I mean, for you, it's not big deal because you guys are doing these multi-months, you're long six months, whatever their deployments, but that's not common in law enforcement.
03:06:18.491 --> 03:06:26.274
[UNKNOWN]: So, you know, just trying to give tips on that, enjoy every part of the job and take advantage of it because the jobs don't take advantage of you.
03:06:26.294 --> 03:06:33.617
[UNKNOWN]: If you're doing your job 40 hours thing, nothing, you're going to take your own vacation if you do 40 hours in one week.
03:06:34.642 --> 03:06:41.206
[UNKNOWN]: But you can travel the world on the taxpayers' dollars for the right reason to pursue the investigation to protect our country.
03:06:43.107 --> 03:06:44.788
[UNKNOWN]: Are we ever going to stop the war on drugs?
03:06:44.808 --> 03:06:49.230
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, we're ever going to stop the illegal drugs in our country not until we address the demand problem.
03:06:49.991 --> 03:06:54.594
[UNKNOWN]: But from your viewpoint, it's called job security, as you never run a client's.
03:06:56.413 --> 03:07:05.222
[UNKNOWN]: as a multi-decade along the agent part of the dynamic duo that took down Pablo Escobar, do you think that the war on drugs is winnable?
03:07:05.922 --> 03:07:10.307
[UNKNOWN]: Oh, you know what, we had this conversation with the guys during the break.
03:07:11.388 --> 03:07:15.712
[UNKNOWN]: That term war on drugs, that's one of the biggest misnomers the government has ever come up with.
03:07:16.843 --> 03:07:24.466
[UNKNOWN]: We're going after the world's biggest and most dangerous cocaine producer and distributor, Pablo Escobar.
03:07:24.486 --> 03:07:25.147
[UNKNOWN]: What do we send?
03:07:26.027 --> 03:07:26.547
[UNKNOWN]: Two guys.
03:07:28.048 --> 03:07:29.268
[UNKNOWN]: It's a joke, that's not a war.
03:07:29.288 --> 03:07:36.131
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, we had the support of all the agents in Bogotá, the other agencies, the bureau, the CIA, the other agencies that are in the embassy.
03:07:36.151 --> 03:07:37.072
[UNKNOWN]: We had support from them.
03:07:37.092 --> 03:07:43.975
[UNKNOWN]: We had support from DEA headquarters, the Escobar investigation was priority for DEA around the world because he was that big.
03:07:45.395 --> 03:07:46.656
[UNKNOWN]: It's not a war, right?
03:07:47.337 --> 03:07:51.940
[UNKNOWN]: So I think that our politicians give a lot of lip service to it.
03:07:54.262 --> 03:08:01.507
[UNKNOWN]: The current administration, I'm liking what I'm seeing, you know, it's just going to college, you're probably some bad comments on things I'm getting ready to say.
03:08:02.820 --> 03:08:09.083
[UNKNOWN]: You can bet it out if you don't like what I say, but blowing up those drug boats coming out of Venezuela, it's long past due.
03:08:09.823 --> 03:08:18.508
[UNKNOWN]: And for anybody, I think those are small-time fishermen coming out with $4, $80,000 engines on the back of those vessels in the middle of the ocean.
03:08:21.189 --> 03:08:23.370
[UNKNOWN]: Employee little common sense to what you're looking at there.
03:08:24.030 --> 03:08:25.231
[UNKNOWN]: There's no question in my mind.
03:08:30.543 --> 03:08:31.383
[UNKNOWN]: Are we winning the war?
03:08:31.563 --> 03:08:32.543
[UNKNOWN]: Well, let me ask you this.
03:08:32.563 --> 03:08:36.524
[UNKNOWN]: Can you go on almost any street corner in the United States today and by cocaine?
03:08:36.564 --> 03:08:36.904
[UNKNOWN]: 1,000%.
03:08:37.544 --> 03:08:37.964
[UNKNOWN]: Absolutely.
03:08:38.144 --> 03:08:42.545
[UNKNOWN]: And I know that you can go to any high school public high school in the United States and do that.
03:08:43.205 --> 03:08:43.705
[UNKNOWN]: Absolutely.
03:08:44.585 --> 03:08:48.606
[UNKNOWN]: So we're never going to win this war just war.
03:08:48.626 --> 03:08:51.186
[UNKNOWN]: I have to do the air quotes, but we're on drugs.
03:08:51.286 --> 03:08:57.668
[UNKNOWN]: If we don't address the demand problem here in the United States first, we used to get conversations with coming national police.
03:09:00.560 --> 03:09:12.483
[UNKNOWN]: And they'd say, I'd say, you know, this thing with the cocaine, you know, your country history is so violent here in Colombia, why hasn't your country done something about the cocaine production before now?
03:09:13.203 --> 03:09:18.725
[UNKNOWN]: And every time they look at you and they'd say, if you Gringo's would stop buying it, we wouldn't have a cocaine problem.
03:09:19.632 --> 03:09:21.734
[UNKNOWN]: And you just say, you win.
03:09:22.374 --> 03:09:27.939
[UNKNOWN]: So how many of our both are huge proponents of education at the very earliest age?
03:09:28.800 --> 03:09:31.803
[UNKNOWN]: And here's an example I'd love to use because it's my one of my granddaughters.
03:09:31.943 --> 03:09:32.944
[UNKNOWN]: I've got five granddaughters.
03:09:34.525 --> 03:09:36.946
[UNKNOWN]: This particular one was about four years old.
03:09:37.367 --> 03:09:39.768
[UNKNOWN]: My wife and I had just moved to, she might've been five.
03:09:39.808 --> 03:09:44.150
[UNKNOWN]: We just moved to Orlando, but a little house on a nice little bit, not a big little lake.
03:09:44.670 --> 03:09:46.311
[UNKNOWN]: And there's alligators out there.
03:09:46.451 --> 03:09:46.931
[UNKNOWN]: It's Florida.
03:09:46.951 --> 03:09:48.192
[UNKNOWN]: There's alligators everywhere, you know?
03:09:49.273 --> 03:09:55.816
[UNKNOWN]: And so our backyard is kind of sloped and there's now swimming pool back there and raw and iron fence and everything.
03:09:55.836 --> 03:09:56.576
[UNKNOWN]: Keep the gators out.
03:09:57.377 --> 03:09:59.578
[UNKNOWN]: But my granddaughter, she's like,
03:10:00.658 --> 03:10:03.780
[UNKNOWN]: she's looking at the alligator, she's so innocent.
03:10:03.840 --> 03:10:14.705
[UNKNOWN]: She's just a little kid, and she's like, Mr. alligator, if you come up here, I'm gonna poke you in the eyes, I'm gonna smack you on the nose, and just being a kid, and I said, baby, come here, my family calls me Pops.
03:10:15.425 --> 03:10:17.226
[UNKNOWN]: I said, let Pops tell you about an alligator.
03:10:17.586 --> 03:10:28.992
[UNKNOWN]: And so I'm telling her, this is danger to pre-historic creatures, and all this, and I said, you know what if that alligator, every gets a hold of you, Pops will do everything you can to save you, but the reality is I probably can't.
03:10:30.015 --> 03:10:34.259
[UNKNOWN]: And but time I finished, she's up in my arms going pops, can we go inside now?
03:10:37.823 --> 03:10:39.544
[UNKNOWN]: I just I hate to thought that that could ever happen.
03:10:41.246 --> 03:10:44.189
[UNKNOWN]: But she now knows the dangers of analogy.
03:10:44.690 --> 03:10:46.511
[UNKNOWN]: Did I scare the crap out of a five-year-old?
03:10:47.052 --> 03:10:47.592
[UNKNOWN]: Absolutely.
03:10:47.612 --> 03:10:48.754
[UNKNOWN]: Did I accomplish my mission?
03:10:49.214 --> 03:10:49.735
[UNKNOWN]: Absolutely.
03:10:50.535 --> 03:10:52.998
[UNKNOWN]: So what if we did the same thing with narcotics?
03:10:54.757 --> 03:10:58.260
[UNKNOWN]: The DARE program, there was one administration that defended the DARE program.
03:10:58.860 --> 03:11:13.871
[UNKNOWN]: I can't tell you how many people have come to Havier and I, if we've done presentations say, I remember the DARE program, that's what taught me about the dangers of narcotics, and then you got the smart elixir coming along and said, yeah, the DARE program taught me all the drugs I want to try, you know, and that's being the jerks.
03:11:15.632 --> 03:11:16.973
[UNKNOWN]: Now the DARE program is back.
03:11:18.868 --> 03:11:20.609
[UNKNOWN]: But why are we not addressing it?
03:11:20.649 --> 03:11:21.609
[UNKNOWN]: We're making it easier.
03:11:21.649 --> 03:11:25.350
[UNKNOWN]: We're going to legalize marijuana everywhere.
03:11:28.071 --> 03:11:30.592
[UNKNOWN]: My job is never to put marijuana smokers in jail.
03:11:31.512 --> 03:11:32.892
[UNKNOWN]: That's never been DEA's mission.
03:11:33.432 --> 03:11:38.534
[UNKNOWN]: We go after the big drug dealers around the world that are having a detrimental effect on our communities, on our country.
03:11:41.515 --> 03:11:44.536
[UNKNOWN]: A lot of people, this is where you don't get the bad remarks.
03:11:45.376 --> 03:11:48.037
[UNKNOWN]: In my opinion, marijuana is a gateway drug.
03:11:49.746 --> 03:11:57.708
[UNKNOWN]: When I was a kid in Tennessee, one of our buddies, you know, were out behind her bikes in the summertime, and he snitched a beer out of his dad's cooler at home.
03:11:58.208 --> 03:12:00.948
[UNKNOWN]: We all took him to taste the beer, you know, 10, 11, 12 years old.
03:12:01.248 --> 03:12:03.329
[UNKNOWN]: Tastes like crap, but you're in front of your buddies.
03:12:03.549 --> 03:12:04.149
[UNKNOWN]: Oh, that's great.
03:12:04.269 --> 03:12:04.929
[UNKNOWN]: Oh, I love this.
03:12:05.649 --> 03:12:08.770
[UNKNOWN]: Next thing you know, he snitches a half bottle line out of the wine cellar.
03:12:09.570 --> 03:12:10.190
[UNKNOWN]: We try that.
03:12:10.590 --> 03:12:11.750
[UNKNOWN]: They wouldn't much better than the beer.
03:12:11.991 --> 03:12:14.211
[UNKNOWN]: And then next thing, you know, by the whiskey.
03:12:15.368 --> 03:12:17.650
[UNKNOWN]: Well, it's gradually getting stronger, isn't it?
03:12:18.051 --> 03:12:20.393
[UNKNOWN]: Well, it's the same thing, that's what Gateway means.
03:12:20.413 --> 03:12:27.520
[UNKNOWN]: I try to marijuana, but this I've never tried marijuana, but people say, I try marijuana, and I'm okay.
03:12:27.820 --> 03:12:28.941
[UNKNOWN]: Look at me, I'm still normal.
03:12:29.862 --> 03:12:35.848
[UNKNOWN]: Well, marijuana is not so bad, I wonder what Coke's like, or now heroin is so pure on the streets, you don't even have to use a needle.
03:12:35.868 --> 03:12:36.509
[UNKNOWN]: You can snort it.
03:12:37.485 --> 03:12:40.069
[UNKNOWN]: You know, nobody will know that I try it because I won't have any needle marks on me.
03:12:40.550 --> 03:12:42.172
[UNKNOWN]: Or math, what's that math all about?
03:12:42.192 --> 03:12:45.958
[UNKNOWN]: Or whatever the drug is, you know, peels, whatever it might be.
03:12:46.619 --> 03:12:47.901
[UNKNOWN]: I just think it's a gateway drug.
03:12:50.365 --> 03:12:51.086
[UNKNOWN]: I know there are...
03:12:52.119 --> 03:13:03.265
[UNKNOWN]: I've talked to some former operators, military operators that are pro, marijuana, and now are pro, LSD, and mushrooms, and things like that.
03:13:03.305 --> 03:13:13.271
[UNKNOWN]: Apparently there's some tests being done down in Mexico, we're not doing this country, where they may have a positive effect on folks suffering from PTSD.
03:13:14.271 --> 03:13:17.373
[UNKNOWN]: If that's true, then let's research it, let's get it done right,
03:13:22.014 --> 03:13:26.697
[UNKNOWN]: I'm all in favor, but let's do it the right way, don't go risk yourself.
03:13:28.838 --> 03:13:37.383
[UNKNOWN]: Log guys are, I'm thinking one specific operator that I knew in Orlando, that is just pro marijuana.
03:13:37.543 --> 03:13:44.047
[UNKNOWN]: They said it's relieves depression, relieving anxiety, relieves chronic pain.
03:13:45.093 --> 03:14:01.078
[UNKNOWN]: I have a Patreon channel on my show, and there's a lady that writes the end, and she said, I know you're not in favor of legalization, but she said, I've suffered from chronic pain, I've been to every kind of doctor, I can think of, I've taken every kind of medication, they've ever prescribed, and the only thing that relieves pain for me is smoking weed.
03:14:02.158 --> 03:14:03.459
[UNKNOWN]: My response to her is lighted up.
03:14:05.339 --> 03:14:11.101
[UNKNOWN]: I don't believe anybody should live in chronic pain or with any symptoms of anxiety depression or PTSD.
03:14:15.323 --> 03:14:24.470
[UNKNOWN]: But just know, there's not a single credible medical research report that says marijuana has a legitimate medicinal purpose.
03:14:26.551 --> 03:14:30.094
[UNKNOWN]: What I don't understand is why our way is through the FDA.
03:14:30.134 --> 03:14:34.477
[UNKNOWN]: Why are we not doing more research on marijuana and its potential positive effects?
03:14:35.058 --> 03:14:36.479
[UNKNOWN]: Let's pull the THC out of there.
03:14:36.499 --> 03:14:37.900
[UNKNOWN]: Let's pull the CBD out of it.
03:14:38.520 --> 03:14:43.524
[UNKNOWN]: Show me that CBD can relieve arthritis because I have a lot arthritis in my body.
03:14:44.068 --> 03:15:06.759
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I will say, I mean, from having had a lot of guests on that have gone down the, if you want to call it homeyopathic, you know, path of whether it's pain management or PTSD recovery or, you know, the host of things that a lot of studies in the last say five to 10 years have been done on.
03:15:06.999 --> 03:15:10.801
[UNKNOWN]: There is significant data that backs up.
03:15:14.817 --> 03:15:17.558
[UNKNOWN]: THC, CBD, psilocybin.
03:15:18.858 --> 03:15:26.100
[UNKNOWN]: I admittedly don't know about LSD or anything past that, but specifically THC, CBD, and psilocybin.
03:15:27.060 --> 03:15:34.102
[UNKNOWN]: And that's, you know, I would say maybe even couple that with the Iva gain in Ayahuasca and 5MEO DMT treatments and stuff.
03:15:34.122 --> 03:15:38.283
[UNKNOWN]: There's truckloads of data, you know, with a ton of positive impact.
03:15:40.264 --> 03:15:53.472
[UNKNOWN]: Having said that, I also think that there's a happy medium of, you know, carte blanche, you know, legalization of everything, you know, that I don't like that, that's the right answer.
03:15:54.993 --> 03:16:03.498
[UNKNOWN]: But for me personally, I certainly don't have a problem with using those as mechanisms for all that type of treatment.
03:16:04.038 --> 03:16:16.451
[UNKNOWN]: I am curious though from like if you compare or put alcohol into that same kind of conversation would you Feel, do you feel the same way about alcohol that you do?
03:16:17.592 --> 03:16:24.379
[UNKNOWN]: Marijuana What my cop friends They're anything I'm a snitch cuz I'm an Irish cop.
03:16:24.419 --> 03:16:24.880
[UNKNOWN]: It's a drink
03:16:26.381 --> 03:16:30.142
[UNKNOWN]: I drank more than my share when I did drink, but I haven't drank alcohol in over 20 years.
03:16:31.282 --> 03:16:36.303
[UNKNOWN]: For several reasons, one, I didn't like the effect of not being in control when I drank too much.
03:16:37.164 --> 03:16:42.025
[UNKNOWN]: The hangovers were getting to be two and three days, they weren't easy when you were younger.
03:16:43.265 --> 03:16:45.526
[UNKNOWN]: And I wanted to set an example for my kids.
03:16:45.666 --> 03:16:47.566
[UNKNOWN]: None of my kids have ever seen me drink alcohol.
03:16:48.246 --> 03:16:50.927
[UNKNOWN]: They've seen me sip a beer.
03:16:52.151 --> 03:16:54.993
[UNKNOWN]: brought back a cherry beer from Belgium one time.
03:16:55.334 --> 03:16:57.836
[UNKNOWN]: It's so sweet if you drank too much if it'd make you sick.
03:16:57.896 --> 03:17:00.498
[UNKNOWN]: But that's the only alcohol my kids have ever seen.
03:17:00.518 --> 03:17:02.600
[UNKNOWN]: And I was doing that to send an example for them.
03:17:03.060 --> 03:17:03.861
[UNKNOWN]: They all take a drink.
03:17:03.901 --> 03:17:04.561
[UNKNOWN]: I'm okay with it.
03:17:04.901 --> 03:17:06.543
[UNKNOWN]: I'm not going to condemn them for it.
03:17:07.083 --> 03:17:09.705
[UNKNOWN]: I've fact I even have beer in my house when they come to visit.
03:17:10.786 --> 03:17:12.528
[UNKNOWN]: So yeah, it you're right.
03:17:12.728 --> 03:17:14.069
[UNKNOWN]: It falls into that same category.
03:17:14.677 --> 03:17:33.555
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah, I meant to me I see I see worse implications or maybe a better word is worse After effects and negative implications on society from alcohol, then I do or at least as bad as marijuana, you know, which to me is as a strange
03:17:35.236 --> 03:17:42.941
[UNKNOWN]: a contradiction in that, you know, to not just allow one, but, frankly, encourage it.
03:17:43.021 --> 03:17:45.363
[UNKNOWN]: It's like, it's glorified everywhere.
03:17:45.383 --> 03:17:52.407
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, it's the one thing where in social circles, people will, you know, condemn or
03:17:53.848 --> 03:17:58.889
[UNKNOWN]: kind of ostracize you for not partaking in it, you know, and all the way up to the highest levels.
03:17:58.909 --> 03:18:12.252
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, the halls of Congress, you know, most congressmen have alcohol in their office, you know, and drink it with each other, and you know, and to me alcohol is certainly not any less dangerous than marijuana.
03:18:12.312 --> 03:18:19.894
[UNKNOWN]: I would argue it's more dangerous, frankly, but both in what it does to your body and the mental impairment, you know,
03:18:24.759 --> 03:18:29.623
[UNKNOWN]: I think this might be like one of the laws of unintended consequences with marijuana.
03:18:29.643 --> 03:18:37.049
[UNKNOWN]: By legalizing it, it's now being grown in a very controlled environment, which has increased the potency of the THC that's in that.
03:18:37.890 --> 03:18:43.455
[UNKNOWN]: So where before say that the wild-grown marijuana that's just out the field,
03:18:44.705 --> 03:18:50.288
[UNKNOWN]: You know, just some people just grow on their own weed might be, I don't know, 12 percent.
03:18:51.109 --> 03:18:59.133
[UNKNOWN]: You know, some of this manicured stuff that's being controlled grown under very controlled circumstances is hidden in the 30 percentile range in higher.
03:18:59.994 --> 03:19:07.838
[UNKNOWN]: And so there have been documented reports where people are suffering from psychotic events because the marijuana was so powerful.
03:19:08.078 --> 03:19:08.278
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
03:19:08.899 --> 03:19:10.519
[UNKNOWN]: So I'm like you.
03:19:11.695 --> 03:19:19.622
[UNKNOWN]: I would really like to see FDA just jump in there with both feet and test this stuff and put the argument to rest if it's a medicinal purpose.
03:19:19.922 --> 03:19:20.602
[UNKNOWN]: Let's break it out.
03:19:20.682 --> 03:19:25.807
[UNKNOWN]: If that's CBD work out, let me know please because I'm right now my hands are hurting from arthritis.
03:19:26.007 --> 03:19:31.992
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I would say CBD, especially I would encourage giving it a shot for arthritis for sure.
03:19:32.012 --> 03:19:37.456
[UNKNOWN]: But for me personally, the problem I have with the FDA being involved in anything is
03:19:39.017 --> 03:20:00.015
[UNKNOWN]: There are so many instances of bad advice, corruption, and them approving things because there's so many other intangibles there that have absolutely zero to do with the best interest of the American citizen and has everything to do with what's in the best interest of the people who benefit within their organization.
03:20:01.116 --> 03:20:24.523
[UNKNOWN]: There's so many pharmaceutical-made medications that are absolutely abhorrent for human beings that are approved by the FDA, so I think, and I do believe and feel like a significant portion of the population would agree, and that, you know, saying the FDA is all over it, doesn't give a lot of people a ton of confidence, you know?
03:20:29.704 --> 03:20:35.128
[UNKNOWN]: has the stamp of approval on this vaccination, it's like, okay, I'll be sure not to take it then.
03:20:36.109 --> 03:20:46.997
[UNKNOWN]: You know, it's just that there's been so many instances of broken trust with so many government agencies, approving things, you know, on the food side, especially.
03:20:47.097 --> 03:20:57.304
[UNKNOWN]: It's like half the things that are okay to the FDA are full blown poison, you know, in the food supply chain.
03:20:58.585 --> 03:21:07.188
[UNKNOWN]: I don't know how you fix that other than growing your own food and doing a lot of your own research and just trying to educate yourself, but you know when it comes to big pharma.
03:21:07.908 --> 03:21:15.350
[UNKNOWN]: So, you know, we're the only country in the world that authorizes advertising on TV, pharmaceuticals.
03:21:15.830 --> 03:21:34.545
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you know, it's weird in Canada, there's some weird mix where you can advertise, but you can't say the name of it, they're very specific on the language, so there can be ads, but you can't mention the name, you can't have the logo, you can't, you know, it's something weird like that, but
03:21:34.885 --> 03:21:53.548
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, in most places, it's illegal, which, you know, then the proponents of that or the counter argument to that would be, well, it's hindering free speech by not allowing to advertise the same way, you know, political action campaigns can't be illegal because, well, it's stamping on the first amendment, which
03:21:54.328 --> 03:22:07.097
[UNKNOWN]: It's tricky, I don't know how you do that, but I do find it crazy when a commercial for a medication comes on and says, ask your doctor about blank.
03:22:07.778 --> 03:22:11.000
[UNKNOWN]: It's like, shouldn't my doctor tell me if I need this?
03:22:11.160 --> 03:22:13.122
[UNKNOWN]: Why would I ask him about anything?
03:22:13.562 --> 03:22:15.083
[UNKNOWN]: Hey, do you think I should use this drug?
03:22:15.103 --> 03:22:23.509
[UNKNOWN]: Like if he doesn't know that, he's either a, the wrong doctor or b, this is snake oil or poison or bolt or whatever, you know, it's like, how does that make any sense?
03:22:24.311 --> 03:22:27.158
[UNKNOWN]: Well, you know, when you talk about, I have tried CBD either, but
03:22:28.109 --> 03:22:28.730
[UNKNOWN]: I have.
03:22:28.770 --> 03:22:31.111
[UNKNOWN]: I think it's a valid, valid pain management.
03:22:31.131 --> 03:22:37.256
[UNKNOWN]: Well, you just made a, you choose to term that, that I refer to it as a, back in the wild west.
03:22:37.296 --> 03:22:38.757
[UNKNOWN]: Here's, it comes to snake oil salesman.
03:22:38.917 --> 03:22:39.118
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
03:22:39.438 --> 03:22:40.579
[UNKNOWN]: This, you can wash clothes in.
03:22:40.619 --> 03:22:41.419
[UNKNOWN]: It's good for a headache.
03:22:41.479 --> 03:22:43.021
[UNKNOWN]: And you'd cure your body.
03:22:43.041 --> 03:22:45.703
[UNKNOWN]: You can change your motor on or whatever you do.
03:22:45.823 --> 03:22:46.443
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I know doubt.
03:22:48.145 --> 03:22:54.730
[UNKNOWN]: I guess moving on to the last thing I wanted to ask, aside from technology, I'm
03:22:55.550 --> 03:23:01.855
[UNKNOWN]: Do you see a disparate difference between cartels back when you were first in your career versus now?
03:23:04.437 --> 03:23:13.585
[UNKNOWN]: I do this with the technology's biggest obviously, but the violence level seems to have gone significantly.
03:23:14.125 --> 03:23:18.148
[UNKNOWN]: If you look back at Eskabar's days in the Medine Cartel, he was extremely violent.
03:23:18.409 --> 03:23:19.890
[UNKNOWN]: No question about it tortured and everything.
03:23:19.910 --> 03:23:22.032
[UNKNOWN]: I went along with it and killed innocent people.
03:23:23.207 --> 03:23:32.951
[UNKNOWN]: But then he had the county cartel who was, you know, as big as the Medine Cartel, but and they did violent things, but not to the level that Eskabar did.
03:23:33.632 --> 03:23:43.056
[UNKNOWN]: Well, now you look at these Mexican cartels, they've taken to the next level, chopping heads off and rolling them out on a dance floor in a nightclub and hanging bodies off for bridges.
03:23:44.216 --> 03:23:58.707
[UNKNOWN]: You know, when one of their leaders gets arrested, they immediately pull buses and tractor trails across the roads and block off entire community, set them on fire, so nobody can move them and then go in and just indiscriminately start killing people to retaliate against the government.
03:24:00.148 --> 03:24:03.571
[UNKNOWN]: It's the same stuff we run into overseas with terrorists networks, you know what I mean?
03:24:03.611 --> 03:24:06.233
[UNKNOWN]: They're that level of brutal, it seems like.
03:24:06.616 --> 03:24:13.580
[UNKNOWN]: And then, I mean, you look at the Al Shibob and some of those groups over in Africa and how they're going and kidnapped all these young girls.
03:24:13.620 --> 03:24:21.345
[UNKNOWN]: And it's the level of violence, it's just, it's out of control.
03:24:21.425 --> 03:24:24.067
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, somebody could come up with a solution of that.
03:24:24.087 --> 03:24:25.428
[UNKNOWN]: And I'm certainly not the person to can.
03:24:25.468 --> 03:24:27.829
[UNKNOWN]: I'm just somebody that's trying to bitch about it like everybody else.
03:24:29.831 --> 03:24:35.214
[UNKNOWN]: I've started supporting several organizations when it comes to anti-human trafficking and child exploitation.
03:24:36.695 --> 03:24:43.277
[UNKNOWN]: There's one guy that started an organization, Tyler Schwab, that's Liebertoss International based out of many in Columbia.
03:24:44.037 --> 03:24:52.600
[UNKNOWN]: He's a Mormon kid out of Wyoming, that saw human trafficking when he's doing his missionary time in the Dominican Republic, didn't realize what he was seeing.
03:24:52.620 --> 03:24:59.122
[UNKNOWN]: He came back to college, heard somebody speak about human trafficking, and the light bulb went off, started to go fund me page.
03:24:59.662 --> 03:25:01.383
[UNKNOWN]: And it's now, as organizations have been going
03:25:06.252 --> 03:25:07.533
[UNKNOWN]: He won't tell you the exact numbers.
03:25:07.593 --> 03:25:08.673
[UNKNOWN]: I didn't research one time.
03:25:08.733 --> 03:25:12.155
[UNKNOWN]: It was over 3,000 people that they had saved and they're mostly children.
03:25:13.715 --> 03:25:21.318
[UNKNOWN]: Invite me to speak at the United Nations and Vienna Austria last year to the, I can't just call it anti-Humitraving.
03:25:21.438 --> 03:25:24.940
[UNKNOWN]: I could always got to come up with some stupid name that nobody can ever remember.
03:25:26.435 --> 03:25:40.485
[UNKNOWN]: which was one of the most disappointing things I've ever done because you see all these NGOs in there that are trying to save people and you see these country representatives that are up there that when these people were talking, the NGOs are talking, they're up there on their phone showing each other pictures and laughing.
03:25:41.866 --> 03:25:51.593
[UNKNOWN]: I just, one of the worst things I've seen, I'm sorry to go off on a tangent there, but the violence associated with that
03:25:53.927 --> 03:25:59.052
[UNKNOWN]: has revealed that the biggest consumer of child exploitation is people from the United States.
03:26:00.394 --> 03:26:05.979
[UNKNOWN]: So, they had a case in Miami recently where the pervert got a life sentence.
03:26:06.938 --> 03:26:12.121
[UNKNOWN]: I think they should all get life sentences and maybe castration to go along with it to stop the problem.
03:26:12.141 --> 03:26:14.282
[UNKNOWN]: You want to have recidivism if you get rid of that little thing.
03:26:14.522 --> 03:26:14.843
[UNKNOWN]: Agreed.
03:26:15.483 --> 03:26:23.808
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, to me, there's, you know, I don't think that there's a punishment that is severe enough for that.
03:26:23.828 --> 03:26:30.271
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, that crosses so many boundaries that are uncrossable and, you know, I think most
03:26:33.853 --> 03:26:45.286
[UNKNOWN]: such a inconsistency state by state of what the penalties are and how light they are in some ways and this goes all the way to the very top of the government.
03:26:46.027 --> 03:26:49.091
[UNKNOWN]: As we sit here in mid-September of 26,
03:26:51.413 --> 03:27:08.127
[UNKNOWN]: still not a single arrest on the Epstein stuff other than then Galeen Maxwell, and there's been a lot of conflicting reports on whether or not she just basically got the Escobar treatment, you know, in wherever she's at, but all these reductions, nobody else has been arrested.
03:27:08.387 --> 03:27:19.676
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, it's, you know, to me there's, there's no faster way to put distrust of the American people into the federal government than to see stuff like that and it's just, it's infuriating.
03:27:20.596 --> 03:27:46.171
[UNKNOWN]: And not just the violence in the narcotics groups, but just in every day life, you know, the gang activity where, you know, you've got to go punch an 85-year-old grandmother down to the ground before you can be initiated into a gang or some stupid thing like that, and the games that are out there on-line games, especially that Grand Theft Auto, I mean, where they're, you know, part of that game is running over cops, killing cops.
03:27:47.634 --> 03:27:50.095
[UNKNOWN]: and it's just seems like it's become accepted.
03:27:50.955 --> 03:27:53.537
[UNKNOWN]: And mostly people have never seen things that you and I've seen.
03:27:53.957 --> 03:27:56.238
[UNKNOWN]: They've never seen the reality of what that really does.
03:27:57.058 --> 03:28:00.600
[UNKNOWN]: And then the aftermath of that and how it affects so many people.
03:28:01.100 --> 03:28:02.340
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, for some reason.
03:28:02.360 --> 03:28:05.442
[UNKNOWN]: It's just, I think we've become way too permissive in our country.
03:28:06.764 --> 03:28:20.087
[UNKNOWN]: I keep a confid of the Constitution and my desk in my little office at home, and I took an oath to protect and defend that Constitution, and just because we retire, I just coined us a little stupid thing, just because we retired doesn't mean our oaths ever expire.
03:28:20.947 --> 03:28:31.630
[UNKNOWN]: So I try to live up to that all the time, but man, it's what were the definition of lunacies continue to do the same thing over and over and over, expect a different outcome.
03:28:32.290 --> 03:28:33.450
[UNKNOWN]: When are we going to do something different?
03:28:34.749 --> 03:28:41.455
[UNKNOWN]: I agree, it's disheartening for sure, but on a lighter note, sorry about that.
03:28:41.595 --> 03:28:42.536
[UNKNOWN]: No, no.
03:28:43.297 --> 03:28:46.700
[UNKNOWN]: It means important stuff is relevant and it needs to be addressed.
03:28:46.720 --> 03:28:48.962
[UNKNOWN]: You can't just keep bearing your head in the sand.
03:28:50.203 --> 03:28:51.484
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, what an amazing career.
03:28:51.564 --> 03:28:54.185
[UNKNOWN]: The Netflix series is fantastic.
03:28:54.225 --> 03:28:57.106
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, I enjoyed every episode of it.
03:28:57.126 --> 03:29:06.190
[UNKNOWN]: And again, it's just such an honor to be able to sit down with you and meet you in here, your story, and kind of walk through that whole process as it really happened.
03:29:06.210 --> 03:29:09.592
[UNKNOWN]: So I can't thank you enough for coming and sharing your story.
03:29:10.163 --> 03:29:18.047
[UNKNOWN]: Mike, it's said, so Mike's done what you've done in your life and the sacrifices you've made for our country for me to sit here and just be invited as an honor.
03:29:18.627 --> 03:29:23.129
[UNKNOWN]: It truly is, and it's, thank you for giving me the opportunity, it's, thank you.
03:29:23.289 --> 03:29:33.793
[UNKNOWN]: I haven't done a long interview like this in quite a while, and it's kind of so bearing and lifting things off of your shoulders to appreciate the kind of words to you, and thanks again for coming.
03:29:34.054 --> 03:29:34.514
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you, brother.
03:29:35.372 --> 03:29:37.374
[UNKNOWN]: For the listener's last viewer, I hope you enjoyed it.
03:29:37.414 --> 03:29:38.856
[UNKNOWN]: If you didn't, you can choke yourself.
03:29:38.976 --> 03:29:41.058
[UNKNOWN]: And until next time, this is my drop.