Catalyst Collab: Shalini Vajjhala | Make Water Work 044

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I'm Isaac with 120 Water.
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>> And I'm Chelsea with Rogue Water, and
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we're excited to welcome you to the Make
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Water Work and Catalyst Collab.
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>> Well, hello everyone, and thank you so
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much for joining the Make Water Work
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Podcast. This is the Make Water Work and
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Catalyst Collab. Um, this is a
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collaboration with Rogue Water Lab, who
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puts on an experience called Catalyst,
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and this year it's in sunny San Diego.
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Um, and it really is a opportunity to be
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in a room with like-minded folks who
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um, are all pursuing improving
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themselves. And so, Chelsea and Greg
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Wukash do a great job of bringing in
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experts, particularly from um, places
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that aren't necessarily in the water
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industry. And that's something that's
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been valuable. Um, and so, um, Chelsea,
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I love I love being able to start this,
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um, all these podcasts by, um,
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celebrating what you create it at
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Catalyst and the experience that you
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give all of us. Um, and today, tell us
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about who our guest is.
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>> Yeah, well, thank you, Isaac. I
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appreciate that. Super excited to tell
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you about our guest today. I just
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recently became acquainted with her, but
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uh, Dr. Shalini Vajhala is the executive
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director of Pre-Collective. That's a
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group of like public service-minded
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experts on infrastructure and project
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development, and they help communities
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make the most of transformational
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infrastructure opportunities, which is
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so relevant to our water sector. And you
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know me, I never read people's bios, but
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hers is so impressive, I've got to tell
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you just a little bit more before we say
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hi. She is also founded um
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a design and finance firm that works on
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public private partnerships, and she
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co-founded an online collaborations
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platform for local government.
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Um she has held senior roles at US EPA,
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at the White House Council on
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Environmental Quality. Uh she has a PhD
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in engineering and public policy from
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Carnegie Mellon University. So, um Dr.
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Rajagopal just has like more than two
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decades of experience designing,
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funding, financing community centered
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climate uh infrastructure work. And so,
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what a relevant expertise to bring and
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it's supposed to our Catalyst guest. So,
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really excited about that and really
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excited to have you on the podcast
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today, Shalini.
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Welcome.
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>> Oh, thanks. Thanks so much, Chelsea.
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Thanks, Isaac. Water people are my
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favorite people. I'm so glad to be here.
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>> It's it's amazing, and it's so it's so
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funny that um we're saying earlier, this
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has been a long time introduction where
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um
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Shalini and I have not really met um
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before, but ironically, when I started
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at 120 Water in 2018, one of my first
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calls in my first 30 days was to someone
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who worked at the Atlas, um a
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uh the project that she started um and
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was a meaningful place for me to learn
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cuz my biggest question was
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okay, we have a solution
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and the thing, but the
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the challenge is going to be
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procurement. How do people in in state
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and local government solve um
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procurement challenges? And
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I found the Atlas and I found L and
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Ellery and um connected connected with
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them. And so, um yeah, this is this is
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very exciting.
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So, that was how I found um
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that was how I found the Atlas.
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Um
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but, I love starting our podcast with
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how did water find you?
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Why are we your favorite people?
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>> Why are you my favorite?
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I I think you guys are my favorite
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people because water touches everything.
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And so, I I walked into the field
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somewhat sideways and I think it's been
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a real privilege to be able to
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find multiple doorways into working with
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folks in the water sector. So, I would
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say the the first really deep anchor
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that I got in the field and in the
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sector was actually when I was in
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architecture school. I had a chance to
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spend
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six months a semester abroad working in
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megacities. And so, this was a program.
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I was the only architect and it was a
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mix of a lot of other people who were
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coming at issues affecting megacities.
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And one of the biggest ones was
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not enough water or too much water
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in places around. So, I spent time in
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Cairo and in Mumbai, India and in Rio de
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Janeiro, Brazil.
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And in Rio, there were communities that
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would slide off the hillsides. These
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informal communities with regular rains
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and rebuild.
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And there were challenges with water
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infrastructure. That was the basic
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fundamental thing. In India, it was
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watching people walk carrying water
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constantly.
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In Egypt, it was amazing how many people
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chose to live in places where they would
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walk for their water but have access to
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other amenities and be relocated by
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railway expansions and other things. So,
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it was this deep underlying thing that
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was constant in all the different ways
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that I was seeing issues pop up. And
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that has remained true in 20 years of
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climate resilience work.
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>> I love hearing that because, you know,
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in the water sector, we're often in
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rooms with just by cells with just water
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people
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and really lamenting on just the crucial
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importance of water the value of water
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its role in everything and often you
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know feel like we're not in these other
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rooms and other places and that was you
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know through architecture study that you
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on your own kind of came to this
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realization of water's role in things.
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Um, I also find you know maybe that's
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part of your story to this next question
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but your kind of like background and
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expertise at the intersection of
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infrastructure and climate resilience
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and community is unique. What pulled you
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towards that?
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>> You know, it's funny. My career looks so
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coherent in hindsight and it never
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really did going forward. It was always
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trying to follow interesting problems.
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So it does go back to that early work in
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Rio
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and what was fascinating is that that
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work followed me all the way into
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my time at EPA where I was in the
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international and tribal affairs side of
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the house but almost everything touched
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water.
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And so the the things that pulled me
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toward this
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um
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the work that brings all the fields
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together
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was really I started asking some very
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basic questions in working across those
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big cities cuz the problems were so
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similar and the contexts felt wildly
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different on the surface but when you
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dug down
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it was really about what do people need
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to have good lives? Why are they making
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the choices they're making? So I started
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collecting hand-drawn maps and it was a
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it was a way of getting around language
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barriers and I wanted to understand
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one of the very first neighborhoods I
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was in
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there were people who were being their
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houses were being torn down to expand a
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railway line and they were gone one day
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and they were back the next.
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And I started asking questions um with
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very limited language access to a lot of
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people. And what became clear was these
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people have been offered homes
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way way way on the edge of the city.
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But they lost access to all the things
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that made it possible that for them to
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build a better life.
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>> Yeah.
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>> That sense of hope. And so they just
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kept coming back to these very
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precarious and informal communities with
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limited infrastructure access. And so
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I started collecting these maps that now
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in hindsight connect all these issues
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that you just listed off, Chelsea. But
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at the time
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I was asking questions like, "Where do
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you go every day?
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Um what's most important to you? Why are
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you here? Like in this place?"
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>> Yeah.
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>> And what started coming up was a set of
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things that turned into um graduate
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research and engineering and policy
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that turned into questions like, "Okay,
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when you say not in my backyard, how
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big's your backyard?
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>> Mhm.
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>> How close would you be willing to live
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to a water treatment plant or a power
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line?
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How close is too close? How far away is
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I'm okay? It's not my problem."
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And what's amazing is those questions
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carried into work with the World Bank in
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Southern Africa. It became a way of
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building up a a set of tools almost to
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get to what really matters to people and
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then design infrastructure in service of
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that. Rather than designing
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infrastructure
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based on what we always had.
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>> Yeah.
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>> And so one of the great delights of my
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career was being able to go back to Rio
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as an official of the PA
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>> Mhm.
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>> and recognize those hillside communities
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ahead of the 2016 Olympics. And what we
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were able to do in collaboration with
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the Brazilian government is find
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creative ways to help water
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infrastructure get built.
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And one of the ways we did that is we
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said,
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"Well, instead of trying to build water
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infrastructure, what if we called water
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infrastructure landslide protection
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for these communities that are sliding
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off into tourist districts on a regular
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basis?"
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And it's I think the entry point in this
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unusual way opened up the space to ask
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um surprising questions and find new
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answers at the end of them. And so,
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it was really exciting. The city of Rio
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was able to support a lot of water
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infrastructure development in favelas
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ahead of the Olympics by combining it
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with
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civil defense authority works on
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resilience. And that's really where like
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these things started coming together for
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me.
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>> Mhm.
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>> I love that.
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>> Yeah, well, I
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>> wild ride gets to respond first,
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Chelsea? I don't
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>> I don't know. I was going to jump in and
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make you fortunate to let me respond
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first. Go for it, Isaac.
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>> No, go No, you. I Yeah, I was like I'm
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like we we both have so much that that
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we could react to in that. Um but you go
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for it.
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>> because it relates so much, you know,
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we're going to have you at Cadasta this
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year and unbeknownst to you it relates
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like what some other people are going to
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tie into and talk to, too. And I just
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think the whole like um
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curation of that is going to be awesome
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for attendees. But the other thing I
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hear in there is
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you know, I'm I'm constantly thinking
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about utilities through water works with
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utilities a ton. And
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a lot of times when they hear from the
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community not in my backyard or they
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hear we're opposed to this, they just
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get they being utility people get scared
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and kind of stop or defensive and oh
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man, what a bad angry customer.
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Without, you know, just cuz they don't
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have those same tools and skill sets and
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questions that you kind of developed and
00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:32.590
were equipped with to say, "What do you
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really mean by that?" And listen, right?
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And it it's not so scary and there there
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are ways to get to common solutions if
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we actually just listen to what everyone
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means and wants, but I do like to
00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:46.310
recognize that that's a scary thing to
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do. And I know the water sector is like,
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"We're not equipped to do it yet." So
00:11:51.920 --> 00:11:54.790
>> Yeah. Yeah, I would I was thinking about
00:11:54.800 --> 00:11:56.990
like how
00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:00.790
the repositioning and the reframing
00:12:00.800 --> 00:12:03.350
of we need to do water infrastructure. I
00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:04.910
think a lot of times, even the way that
00:12:04.920 --> 00:12:06.750
we label funding at the federal level,
00:12:06.760 --> 00:12:07.750
it's like, "Well, what's going to
00:12:07.760 --> 00:12:10.430
water?" And so it's like sometimes we're
00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:13.430
like water's getting underfunded,
00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:15.230
which is absolutely true, and there are
00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:16.430
other things that are important to
00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:17.950
communities that will require
00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:19.910
restructuring of
00:12:19.920 --> 00:12:22.350
water infrastructure. So like, where's
00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:24.870
where's that overlay where we can say,
00:12:24.880 --> 00:12:26.950
"Okay, this project is really important.
00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:28.110
It's not
00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:29.910
directly water infrastructure, but it
00:12:29.920 --> 00:12:31.790
will allow for water infrastructure
00:12:31.800 --> 00:12:34.310
upgrades." Um but it does require a
00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:37.470
little bit of um thinking a bit more
00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:40.110
abstractly about about what it is and
00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:41.790
not as linearly.
00:12:41.800 --> 00:12:42.910
Um
00:12:42.920 --> 00:12:44.829
>> And it's a tricky dance, right? So like,
00:12:44.839 --> 00:12:46.750
Chelsea, one of the things I think is
00:12:46.760 --> 00:12:49.350
scariest is when you are supposed to be
00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:51.390
an expert in something, when you are
00:12:51.400 --> 00:12:54.310
responsible for something, money or an
00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:55.950
outcome,
00:12:55.960 --> 00:12:57.910
a lot of times you're help you're
00:12:57.920 --> 00:13:00.190
holding yourself to a different standard
00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:04.710
and trying to find ways that are
00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:07.070
still really holding accountability for
00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:09.790
that role and that expertise,
00:13:09.800 --> 00:13:11.910
but creating that space for listening, I
00:13:11.920 --> 00:13:15.230
think, that's where the magic is. And so
00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:16.430
my
00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:17.150
um
00:13:17.160 --> 00:13:20.110
my experience on this is like no one
00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:21.750
wants a water main. They want clean
00:13:21.760 --> 00:13:24.670
water. No one needs a highway. They need
00:13:24.680 --> 00:13:26.310
to get safely to school and the people
00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:29.830
they love, and so often times we leap
00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:32.550
too quickly to the answer or the
00:13:32.560 --> 00:13:33.910
obligation of what we think we're
00:13:33.920 --> 00:13:36.550
supposed to deliver. And
00:13:36.560 --> 00:13:40.790
I think by just slowing down enough at
00:13:40.800 --> 00:13:43.030
the beginning, like not feeling that
00:13:43.040 --> 00:13:44.790
pressure and urgency to say there might
00:13:44.800 --> 00:13:47.790
be a wider set of solutions here.
00:13:47.800 --> 00:13:50.750
What is the actual outcome I'm trying to
00:13:50.760 --> 00:13:53.830
achieve? It's making sure that these
00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:56.870
folks are safe and have access to clean
00:13:56.880 --> 00:13:58.110
water.
00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:00.750
And just by sticking that word safe in
00:14:00.760 --> 00:14:03.550
there, it opened up 10 times the amount
00:14:03.560 --> 00:14:05.230
of money.
00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:07.870
Mhm. Like if as a water professional, if
00:14:07.880 --> 00:14:11.430
you can tap into, you know, another
00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.190
budget,
00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:14.830
that's magic.
00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:17.270
And it's often times right there within
00:14:17.280 --> 00:14:19.310
your skill set. And so, like my other
00:14:19.320 --> 00:14:21.590
favorite example is the city of Hoboken,
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:24.510
which had amazing non-water people who
00:14:24.520 --> 00:14:26.790
did water. And this was one of our
00:14:26.800 --> 00:14:29.470
earliest projects when I started
00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:31.070
Refocus, the predecessor to WRI
00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:32.670
Collective.
00:14:32.680 --> 00:14:35.030
Um and we got to work with the city
00:14:35.040 --> 00:14:37.710
after Hurricane Sandy. So, way too much
00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:39.550
water.
00:14:39.560 --> 00:14:42.390
But they basically came at a problem and
00:14:42.400 --> 00:14:44.110
said we need flood We need flood
00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:46.790
resilience, and we were able to do that
00:14:46.800 --> 00:14:49.270
pause, that three-week pause, and say,
00:14:49.280 --> 00:14:51.110
"What else do you need?"
00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:53.750
And instead of getting pumps, which
00:14:53.760 --> 00:14:55.590
would have been the immediate answer
00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:56.790
when you look in your wallet and see
00:14:56.800 --> 00:14:58.710
what can you afford. I can afford a $5
00:14:58.720 --> 00:14:59.950
million pump.
00:14:59.960 --> 00:15:01.750
Or I can afford this upgrade or this
00:15:01.760 --> 00:15:04.030
sewer separation. What we were able to
00:15:04.040 --> 00:15:08.150
say is, "Can we also get you
00:15:08.160 --> 00:15:10.750
parking and parks and other ways to pay
00:15:10.760 --> 00:15:13.110
for this?" So, if your cars are floating
00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:16.190
down your streets in an in an event, why
00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:17.790
not have parking pay for your flood
00:15:17.800 --> 00:15:20.110
protection when it's dry out? And it's
00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:23.870
that But asking the question that way
00:15:23.880 --> 00:15:26.190
opened up the like
00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:28.470
well, why can't we have a bathtub?
00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:29.710
Turned out the parking garage wasn't the
00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:33.470
bathtub, but the conversation about it
00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:35.870
opened the door to this crown jewel of
00:15:35.880 --> 00:15:38.470
an asset that Hoboken was able to build.
00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:41.590
And they went from scraping to find $5
00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:42.910
million
00:15:42.920 --> 00:15:46.150
to financing a $100 million crown jewel
00:15:46.160 --> 00:15:47.830
of a park now.
00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:48.230
>> Wow.
00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:49.670
>> So, that's the difference, right? But,
00:15:49.680 --> 00:15:51.990
it has to happen right at that early
00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:53.350
stage. Otherwise, you've already locked
00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:55.870
in to now, how do I get a better pump?
00:15:55.880 --> 00:15:57.950
And that's the wrong question.
00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:00.470
>> Uh, yeah. Yeah.
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:01.990
Yeah, that like taps into like the
00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:04.310
humanity side of like
00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:05.710
that
00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:08.110
allowing for sometimes the uncomfortable
00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:09.950
silence when there's any problem,
00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:11.310
whether that's interpersonal or
00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.030
anything. It's like, I want to I just
00:16:14.040 --> 00:16:17.030
want to resolve this so everyone goes
00:16:17.040 --> 00:16:20.870
home. Like like can like can we just
00:16:20.880 --> 00:16:23.310
be done with this con like there's this
00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:24.750
is a conflict and we have to solve a
00:16:24.760 --> 00:16:26.110
problem.
00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:28.550
I want to jump over here,
00:16:28.560 --> 00:16:31.510
but everything that's lost in that space
00:16:31.520 --> 00:16:33.030
in between
00:16:33.040 --> 00:16:33.829
um
00:16:33.839 --> 00:16:37.510
is is amazing opportunity. Um, yeah, I'm
00:16:37.520 --> 00:16:39.110
going to I'm going to be chewing on that
00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:41.310
for for a hot second.
00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:43.430
>> I also think, you know, that community
00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:45.710
engagement trust building where do you
00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:48.470
you that example, I think, was a great
00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:51.110
way to show ROI. But, a lot of times
00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:52.430
when you're talking, if you say
00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:54.990
community outreach, we need to go slow
00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:57.030
down and spend some time to win some
00:16:57.040 --> 00:17:00.310
trust. It seems like decision makers
00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:02.910
just look at that as like a soft thing
00:17:02.920 --> 00:17:04.750
and we're not budgeting for that and no,
00:17:04.760 --> 00:17:07.230
no, no, we have to speed forward. So, I
00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:09.790
think and correct me if I'm wrong, you
00:17:09.800 --> 00:17:12.630
kind of call this stage pre-development.
00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:15.270
What does that mean exactly? Why Why you
00:17:15.280 --> 00:17:18.390
think it is so underfunded and like gets
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:21.829
not enough attention to to do that step
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:22.510
first?
00:17:22.520 --> 00:17:24.110
>> I'll define it first and then I'll tell
00:17:24.120 --> 00:17:27.630
you why I think people miss it. Um so
00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:29.910
the definition we use at Pre Collective
00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:32.590
is it's all that early messy stuff that
00:17:32.600 --> 00:17:33.830
you have to do
00:17:33.840 --> 00:17:35.990
to build what you need next instead of
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.790
putting familiar band-aids on what you
00:17:37.800 --> 00:17:39.470
already
00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:42.950
So it is not a neatly defined or
00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:44.830
sequence of activities where you can
00:17:44.840 --> 00:17:46.750
just check the boxes and work your way
00:17:46.760 --> 00:17:48.270
through. I think that's what a lot of
00:17:48.280 --> 00:17:50.110
people wish it were
00:17:50.120 --> 00:17:52.190
but that's how you get a better pump.
00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:54.190
Right? That's where you have pre-decided
00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:55.550
the answer.
00:17:55.560 --> 00:17:57.950
So it's squishy. Parts of it feel as
00:17:57.960 --> 00:17:59.990
uncomfortable as Thanksgiving dinner can
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.350
and you really have to work those skills
00:18:02.360 --> 00:18:04.590
and learn learn that space.
00:18:04.600 --> 00:18:07.030
But other parts of it can be super
00:18:07.040 --> 00:18:09.830
rewarding. And I think the reason it
00:18:09.840 --> 00:18:12.630
gets missed often
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:15.030
is because
00:18:15.040 --> 00:18:17.750
like when you do it well, a lot of us
00:18:17.760 --> 00:18:19.910
work in water and climate resilience and
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:22.110
infrastructure, it looks more like
00:18:22.120 --> 00:18:23.990
preventative health care
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:25.550
than it looks like any other kind of
00:18:25.560 --> 00:18:27.190
work. So
00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:28.910
when you do it right, you're generally
00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:30.630
heading off bad outcomes, you're
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:33.030
creating better outcomes, but that's way
00:18:33.040 --> 00:18:34.790
down the line, it's spread out across a
00:18:34.800 --> 00:18:36.310
lot of people
00:18:36.320 --> 00:18:38.790
and so there isn't this way of saying
00:18:38.800 --> 00:18:41.430
invest up front to avoid all these
00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:43.590
long-term costs. And that's why at Pre
00:18:43.600 --> 00:18:45.630
we feel so strongly about you have to
00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:47.110
show not tell
00:18:47.120 --> 00:18:49.510
so that you can show both the community
00:18:49.520 --> 00:18:51.910
value and the financial value and make
00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:54.710
the case for that investment up front.
00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:56.630
And it's not just the money investment,
00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:59.390
it's the time, it's the flexibility,
00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:01.750
it's that nobody does outreach well when
00:19:01.760 --> 00:19:04.070
they're time-famished or like working
00:19:04.080 --> 00:19:06.070
with time confetti of I have to fit this
00:19:06.080 --> 00:19:08.230
into this 30-minute zoom.
00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:11.030
You have to have that flex and so it
00:19:11.040 --> 00:19:13.670
it's a discipline in a lot of ways, but
00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:15.830
I think it doesn't get noticed because
00:19:15.840 --> 00:19:17.990
when you do it really well, like water
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:19.230
professionals will feel this really
00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:20.630
deeply, right? When you do your work
00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:22.910
perfectly, nobody notices. It's when
00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:25.830
something goes wrong, you know, the
00:19:25.840 --> 00:19:28.430
the the water main break that everybody
00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:31.630
knows that your job exists. And I used
00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:33.990
to say this half jokingly at EPA, but
00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:35.830
climate resilience
00:19:35.840 --> 00:19:37.990
the year after the storm, everyone
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:41.270
applauds your work. The year after that,
00:19:41.280 --> 00:19:42.870
no one remembers and your budget gets
00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:44.630
cut. And the year after that, your staff
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:45.910
go away.
00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:50.670
So, I actually think most of my job is
00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:52.590
two basic things. It's English to
00:19:52.600 --> 00:19:55.270
English translation across these sectors
00:19:55.280 --> 00:19:57.710
so you can get folks together.
00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:01.150
And it's storytelling about that what is
00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:04.190
the value you can create. And so, I
00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:05.710
think it all comes back down to that
00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:07.390
kind of scary point where you meet
00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:09.190
community.
00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:12.190
Asking a question like, "Hey, what would
00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:13.430
it take for you to support this
00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:14.990
project?"
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:17.150
Or what would make it more exciting for
00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:19.150
you or more valuable?
00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:20.830
Is really different than what do you
00:20:20.840 --> 00:20:23.630
think about this design or this plan?
00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:24.590
>> Yeah.
00:20:24.600 --> 00:20:25.950
Yeah.
00:20:26.800 --> 00:20:30.230
>> You're listening to the conversation.
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:31.070
Please, what's the difference
00:20:31.080 --> 00:20:33.110
>> I don't know. I'm smiling so much and
00:20:33.120 --> 00:20:35.350
and like all of these hearing from
00:20:35.360 --> 00:20:37.790
people like you because it's the things
00:20:37.800 --> 00:20:40.230
that Rogue talks about and still I I
00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.430
just think hearing, you know, utilities
00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:44.750
and the water sector hearing from
00:20:44.760 --> 00:20:46.430
an expert, you know, all these other
00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:49.510
experts saying, "Hey, we we There are
00:20:49.520 --> 00:20:53.470
better ways. And no, just cuz you're a
00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:55.990
very smart engineer does not mean you
00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:58.790
necessarily know how to go and have, you
00:20:58.800 --> 00:21:00.990
know, this this conversation the right
00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:02.350
way."
00:21:02.360 --> 00:21:04.590
>> Yeah. I think a lot of times, so as
00:21:04.600 --> 00:21:06.590
someone who has gone through the like
00:21:06.600 --> 00:21:07.990
engineering
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:08.550
um
00:21:08.560 --> 00:21:11.230
education version of this. The skills I
00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:12.830
use on the engineering side of the house
00:21:12.840 --> 00:21:15.110
are figuring out
00:21:15.120 --> 00:21:16.670
um
00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:18.910
sh- uh how to frame
00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:20.710
technical challenges really well. So,
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:23.870
like the is this worth doing?
00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:25.590
And the what are the alternatives
00:21:25.600 --> 00:21:29.350
available to us? The skills I use for
00:21:29.360 --> 00:21:31.510
the early parts of projects are actually
00:21:31.520 --> 00:21:33.630
a lot more like the Thanksgiving dinner
00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:35.830
skills, right? It's the how would I have
00:21:35.840 --> 00:21:37.470
a conversation with my grandmother about
00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:39.870
this in a way that
00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:43.870
recognizes how smart she was and does
00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:46.870
not disrespect that without
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:50.230
requiring of her the expertise
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:53.550
in this specific thing. And that to me,
00:21:53.560 --> 00:21:56.750
those are different skills and I I think
00:21:56.760 --> 00:21:58.430
it's a shame that we don't get taught
00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:00.750
them more in engineering school.
00:22:00.760 --> 00:22:01.070
>> Mhm.
00:22:01.080 --> 00:22:03.310
>> But I also think we got to pick them up
00:22:03.320 --> 00:22:05.510
because otherwise you are setting
00:22:05.520 --> 00:22:07.670
yourself up for the opposition where
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:10.310
people just move right back in to that
00:22:10.320 --> 00:22:12.190
space where they were
00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:14.670
um no matter what you offer them because
00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:16.110
you didn't ask.
00:22:16.120 --> 00:22:17.110
>> Yeah.
00:22:17.120 --> 00:22:18.990
Well, it it also feels like it's so much
00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:22.430
at the root of what it means to build a
00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:25.310
community is like we're
00:22:25.320 --> 00:22:27.870
we're living together in some borders
00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:29.790
and deciding
00:22:29.800 --> 00:22:31.990
and the this is kind of the beauty of
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:35.670
politics even when it's crazy. Um is
00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:38.350
just that like it is the practice of
00:22:38.360 --> 00:22:40.230
saying, "Hey, how do we want to organize
00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:42.510
ourselves around the resources that are
00:22:42.520 --> 00:22:44.150
available to us?"
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:45.030
Um
00:22:45.040 --> 00:22:49.430
and I and I think it's it's rare that
00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:51.110
that we
00:22:51.120 --> 00:22:52.910
um create the safe space for a
00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:54.670
conversation to say, "Hey, we need to
00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:57.150
hear multiple perspectives, but also
00:22:57.160 --> 00:22:59.350
zoom back a little bit and say, is there
00:22:59.360 --> 00:23:00.750
a larger
00:23:00.760 --> 00:23:02.590
opportunity or problem we're trying to
00:23:02.600 --> 00:23:04.630
solve. Like are we like
00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:06.470
making things that are like like we're
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:08.950
doing this right now in in our in our
00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:12.030
city. We're putting a brand new bus line
00:23:12.040 --> 00:23:14.470
down. It's disrupting tons of traffic
00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:16.310
and I drive by it and I see I was like,
00:23:16.320 --> 00:23:17.750
"Woah, this is such a good opportunity.
00:23:17.760 --> 00:23:19.590
We're We're replacing all the water
00:23:19.600 --> 00:23:22.310
mains across the busiest street in our
00:23:22.320 --> 00:23:23.870
city." and I know our water utility
00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:26.590
folks are excited about this project. I
00:23:26.600 --> 00:23:28.790
see it's it's happens in my neighborhood
00:23:28.800 --> 00:23:31.350
so it's like very disruptive and so I'm
00:23:31.360 --> 00:23:32.870
I'm in those Facebook groups and chats
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:36.150
and you know where folks are are
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:38.390
are venting but I'm like I'm like, "Yes,
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:41.230
we're we're also doing it I think really
00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:42.670
we're taking advantage of multiple
00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:44.990
infrastructure projects to do a
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:45.230
>> Yeah.
00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:47.750
>> bunch of stuff all at once that is like
00:23:47.760 --> 00:23:51.150
we're not going to have to do this for
00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:53.510
do this again in a while. Um yeah,
00:23:53.520 --> 00:23:54.750
that's a little bit of a tangent and
00:23:54.760 --> 00:23:56.390
just in the thing
00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:58.030
that that's good planning and I'm just
00:23:58.040 --> 00:24:01.190
so excited like someone did this right.
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:02.790
>> But I think it's squarely in it, right?
00:24:02.800 --> 00:24:05.390
I think it's it's this we don't we don't
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:06.830
often have the simple message
00:24:06.840 --> 00:24:08.710
conversations and we don't say the thing
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:10.030
that everybody's feeling which is like,
00:24:10.040 --> 00:24:11.870
"Guys, this is going to suck for 2
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:13.030
years."
00:24:13.040 --> 00:24:14.990
Like let's be real. It's not going to be
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:17.350
any fun. Like I'm in San Diego and there
00:24:17.360 --> 00:24:19.270
is a ton of construction around me and I
00:24:19.280 --> 00:24:20.910
am like the local infrastructure and
00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:22.550
housing enthusiast where I'm like,
00:24:22.560 --> 00:24:25.150
"Isn't it going to be great in 10 years
00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:27.630
when we don't have to deal with that or
00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:30.190
when we are more fire safe because of
00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:31.230
it?"
00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:34.750
And I think folks get these pain points
00:24:34.760 --> 00:24:36.190
when for example you're trying to fix up
00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:38.110
your home. We're like, "Ugh, you know,
00:24:38.120 --> 00:24:39.470
it's going to be like a construction
00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:41.350
site. You're managing toddlers or
00:24:41.360 --> 00:24:43.750
whatever it is." and
00:24:43.760 --> 00:24:46.070
we make that trade-off when we're making
00:24:46.080 --> 00:24:48.590
the whole decision for ourselves. But we
00:24:48.600 --> 00:24:51.390
often don't get that dose of perspective
00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:52.950
or get to hold on to it with the
00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:55.230
reminders of like
00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:57.390
"Wow, this is going to be like this does
00:24:57.400 --> 00:24:59.390
suck. That's very real. I don't have
00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:01.190
anywhere to park. I now have it takes me
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:02.630
10 minutes longer to get my kids to
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:03.950
school.
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:07.110
I think some of that is a function of
00:25:07.120 --> 00:25:09.590
how we're required to do community
00:25:09.600 --> 00:25:12.390
engagement, which is really broken um
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:14.630
and leads to bad outcomes. It's kind of
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:17.150
the box checking version of it.
00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:19.790
Doesn't let you do the simple stuff and
00:25:19.800 --> 00:25:21.830
where you get ahead and you're like you
00:25:21.840 --> 00:25:24.230
ask the open-ended question. You always
00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:25.990
feel like you have to present something
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:28.070
and that often closes a door before you
00:25:28.080 --> 00:25:29.550
can even open it.
00:25:29.560 --> 00:25:29.990
>> Yeah.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:31.830
>> But one of the things that makes me nuts
00:25:31.840 --> 00:25:33.430
is like
00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:35.390
and this is more in the context of like
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:38.030
say an Army Corps project, a really
00:25:38.040 --> 00:25:40.510
massive coastal protection has to hook
00:25:40.520 --> 00:25:43.270
up to a water system. Nobody goes in and
00:25:43.280 --> 00:25:44.910
tells a community
00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:47.870
this is going to be a 10-year process.
00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:50.190
Every single engagement is treated as
00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:51.990
its own one-off event and if you don't
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:54.590
know how these things work, you're like
00:25:54.600 --> 00:25:57.270
what's next? What am I am I supposed to
00:25:57.280 --> 00:25:59.390
put this level of effort in like every
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:01.110
two months, every three months? Like why
00:26:01.120 --> 00:26:03.310
have they been silent for a year?
00:26:03.320 --> 00:26:06.950
That expectation setting is so important
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:09.630
and it's not anywhere in the checklist
00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:10.950
of what counts.
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:11.510
>> Mhm.
00:26:11.520 --> 00:26:12.350
>> Yeah.
00:26:12.360 --> 00:26:14.390
>> So, just thinking about how you would
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:16.990
want to be treated and putting yourself
00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:18.870
in the shoes of a resident of
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:21.350
Okay, here are the facts like
00:26:21.360 --> 00:26:23.070
it's going to suck, but it's going to be
00:26:23.080 --> 00:26:24.910
better after it's
00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:27.550
and I'm going to ask for a lot of your
00:26:27.560 --> 00:26:30.190
time for about six months and then
00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:31.470
there's going to be a period where you
00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:33.270
wonder where I've gone and it's going to
00:26:33.280 --> 00:26:35.950
be like a year of radio silence and then
00:26:35.960 --> 00:26:37.550
this construction is going to happen,
00:26:37.560 --> 00:26:40.470
but like that level of basic I don't see
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:42.590
in very many places or engagement
00:26:42.600 --> 00:26:44.230
opportunities.
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:47.110
And I think it's it's an opportunity
00:26:47.120 --> 00:26:49.830
missed, right? Like if you talk to any
00:26:49.840 --> 00:26:51.310
engineer on a project, they know this
00:26:51.320 --> 00:26:53.750
stuff. They would tell their They would
00:26:53.760 --> 00:26:55.230
tell their family. I was like, "Okay, so
00:26:55.240 --> 00:26:56.470
here's the deal. The street's being torn
00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:58.110
up. It's going to be 2 or 3 days cuz
00:26:58.120 --> 00:26:58.670
it's this."
00:26:58.680 --> 00:26:59.470
>> Yeah.
00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:00.550
>> Um
00:27:00.560 --> 00:27:03.110
but we just don't think about doing it
00:27:03.120 --> 00:27:05.030
in these more technical contexts. But I
00:27:05.040 --> 00:27:07.110
think the simple information is
00:27:07.120 --> 00:27:09.110
undervalued.
00:27:09.120 --> 00:27:11.430
>> It's crazy, too, cuz hearing you kind of
00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:13.550
recap it and just saying it so simply
00:27:13.560 --> 00:27:17.190
like that, it's so simple. And you know,
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:21.110
no one's meaning ill will towards not
00:27:21.120 --> 00:27:22.270
doing it, right? There's something
00:27:22.280 --> 00:27:24.070
called the curse of knowledge, and
00:27:24.080 --> 00:27:25.870
sometimes when we know things, we forget
00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:28.110
what it's like to not know them. And so
00:27:28.120 --> 00:27:29.670
we walk in just kind of assuming
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:31.990
everyone like understands a process, so
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.150
we forget like our brain doesn't think
00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:36.550
to break it down. But yeah, some of
00:27:36.560 --> 00:27:38.990
these things are so simple. I'm also
00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:41.870
curious your thoughts and kind of how
00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:45.030
Pre Collective works with trust. Like
00:27:45.040 --> 00:27:47.910
how trust comes into, you know, when
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:49.310
you're doing collaboration with a lot of
00:27:49.320 --> 00:27:50.670
different parties. You know, you said
00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:53.270
the messy work. You know,
00:27:53.280 --> 00:27:55.670
I It seems like trust is going down
00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:57.310
everywhere. We We talk about all the
00:27:57.320 --> 00:27:58.870
polls like for government, but it seems
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:01.230
like no one trusts anyone. No one trusts
00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:04.030
data. No one trusts facts. No one um
00:28:04.040 --> 00:28:05.710
What does that look like in Pre
00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:07.950
Collective's work, and how do you
00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:10.230
approach it or address it?
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:11.670
>> Oof.
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:13.110
Um
00:28:13.120 --> 00:28:14.550
>> Simple question, you know.
00:28:14.560 --> 00:28:17.230
>> Oh, yeah. No, it's the little stuff.
00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:18.350
I mean, I think we approach it
00:28:18.360 --> 00:28:20.230
continuously, right? And we hold
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:22.630
ourselves to a really high standard of
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:24.630
saying what we mean and following
00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:26.030
through on what we're saying. So we're
00:28:26.040 --> 00:28:27.350
always trying to under-promise and
00:28:27.360 --> 00:28:28.670
over-deliver.
00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:28.870
>> Mhm.
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:31.510
>> And we do a ton of that expectation
00:28:31.520 --> 00:28:33.270
setting along the way, and the course
00:28:33.280 --> 00:28:35.110
correcting of, "Hey, this is starting to
00:28:35.120 --> 00:28:36.910
look different than what we thought it
00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:39.310
might be, and we might need to adjust."
00:28:39.320 --> 00:28:40.510
And
00:28:40.520 --> 00:28:42.350
the other thing I think is we just use
00:28:42.360 --> 00:28:44.750
really plain language um
00:28:44.760 --> 00:28:47.110
because it's
00:28:47.120 --> 00:28:49.550
it's easy to lose trust if you make
00:28:49.560 --> 00:28:51.470
someone feel dumb.
00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:52.670
>> Yeah.
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:54.310
>> And
00:28:54.320 --> 00:28:57.150
that is something that I
00:28:57.160 --> 00:29:00.030
I think I got a like an incredible
00:29:00.040 --> 00:29:02.070
education in that from having
00:29:02.080 --> 00:29:03.710
two grandmothers who helped raise me who
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:05.870
were the smartest people in the world.
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:08.510
They spoke half a dozen languages, but
00:29:08.520 --> 00:29:09.590
they were pulled out of school in
00:29:09.600 --> 00:29:11.350
elementary school.
00:29:11.360 --> 00:29:12.670
And so they
00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:14.550
always felt like they wouldn't
00:29:14.560 --> 00:29:16.310
understand. And so
00:29:16.320 --> 00:29:18.110
I I think one of the things that's
00:29:18.120 --> 00:29:21.430
helped me stay in that headspace is I
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:23.470
try to think about, you know, if you
00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:25.150
have access to a second language, the
00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:28.030
best thing you can do is take your
00:29:28.040 --> 00:29:30.430
technical information and try to say it
00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:32.350
in your second language.
00:29:32.360 --> 00:29:34.150
>> Mhm.
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:36.750
>> And it is almost impossible unless you
00:29:36.760 --> 00:29:38.630
are a professional engineer in multiple
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:40.510
languages because
00:29:40.520 --> 00:29:42.470
I I think my favorite example of this
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:44.630
was in grad school. I was working on
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:46.230
carbon sequestration issues and
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:48.950
groundwater contamination. And I was
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:50.350
working on the risk and community
00:29:50.360 --> 00:29:52.190
engagement side.
00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:54.510
And I went to go visit my grandmother
00:29:54.520 --> 00:29:56.750
and she had the courage to ask. She
00:29:56.760 --> 00:29:57.910
always asked me, "What are you working
00:29:57.920 --> 00:29:59.510
on?" And she didn't ask other people
00:29:59.520 --> 00:30:00.590
because she was afraid she wouldn't
00:30:00.600 --> 00:30:02.790
understand, but she she asked and I was
00:30:02.800 --> 00:30:06.150
like, "Oh, no. I don't have any words
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:08.470
for carbon sequestration in my family's
00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:11.190
native language from South India."
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:13.670
So I was like, "Give me a second." And I
00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:15.670
finally was able to say, "Okay, here are
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:17.150
the important pieces." I was like, "Do
00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:20.550
you remember your your coal stove
00:30:20.560 --> 00:30:21.710
when you were young?" She was like,
00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:22.590
"Yeah."
00:30:22.600 --> 00:30:24.190
It's like, you know, "How did it feel
00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:25.310
when you had that thing going?" She was
00:30:25.320 --> 00:30:26.350
like, "Oh, it was smoky." I was like,
00:30:26.360 --> 00:30:27.830
"Okay, so work with me for a second. I
00:30:27.840 --> 00:30:29.950
want you to imagine getting a bucket and
00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:32.470
catching that smoke." And she was like,
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:34.190
"All right." And I was like, "So you've
00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:35.350
got the bucket with the smoke." I was
00:30:35.360 --> 00:30:37.190
like, "Walk outside.
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:38.750
If you could dig a hole anywhere in the
00:30:38.760 --> 00:30:40.270
ground and put that in the ground, where
00:30:40.280 --> 00:30:42.390
would you put it?" And her first answer
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:44.310
was, well not near the well and I said
00:30:44.320 --> 00:30:47.230
that's what I'm working on.
00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:48.630
And she was
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:50.390
off to the races. Like she called one of
00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:51.910
my great aunts, they had a 3-hour
00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:54.110
conversation, they left feeling like
00:30:54.120 --> 00:30:56.230
experts in carbon sequestration, and
00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:57.230
then they were like you got to do
00:30:57.240 --> 00:30:58.910
something about this. Like it can't go
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:02.790
into the well.
00:31:02.800 --> 00:31:05.910
That is the core of it.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:07.590
>> That
00:31:07.600 --> 00:31:10.550
I literally have chills because imagine
00:31:10.560 --> 00:31:12.630
if we could all
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:15.150
do something like that and talk like a
00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:17.110
normal person and connect with people
00:31:17.120 --> 00:31:20.230
like that, the passion they would have
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:22.270
and the 3-hour conversations they would
00:31:22.280 --> 00:31:25.190
have and the impact the world would have
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.670
and be better and and that's why you
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:29.910
know the skill set matters.
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:32.430
>> And they will share the work so you
00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:34.950
don't have to. Your upfront time
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:36.790
invested like I didn't have to teach my
00:31:36.800 --> 00:31:38.470
great aunt about carbon sequestration.
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:40.470
She called me a month later
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:41.550
and was like so listen I've been
00:31:41.560 --> 00:31:44.190
thinking.
00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:47.030
But you create your own support network
00:31:47.040 --> 00:31:49.790
when you do that little early bit well
00:31:49.800 --> 00:31:51.110
and it is
00:31:51.120 --> 00:31:53.430
it's so hard. It's and you're not going
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:55.270
to get it right every time and you're
00:31:55.280 --> 00:31:58.190
not going to get it right with everyone.
00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:01.710
But the key is just that the giving it a
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:05.270
go is something we lose in our careers
00:32:05.280 --> 00:32:07.830
as we get more expert. And I think
00:32:07.840 --> 00:32:09.750
taking ourselves back to that how would
00:32:09.760 --> 00:32:11.150
I explain it to a kid? How would I
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:12.710
explain it to a grandparent? How would I
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:14.350
explain this to someone in my
00:32:14.360 --> 00:32:15.910
neighborhood
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:19.190
who is expert in something else.
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:21.990
And just reminding everybody that
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:24.670
someone else is expert in something else
00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:26.630
and they don't need to become an expert
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:29.310
in what you do. You are that. You get to
00:32:29.320 --> 00:32:31.630
hold that for them. What you need to do
00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:35.470
is meet them with what they need to know
00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:37.150
to feel safe
00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:41.150
and confident that you respect them.
00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:42.150
>> Mhm.
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:44.310
>> And that's where I think the
00:32:44.320 --> 00:32:46.110
Yeah, well, the good-heartedness of
00:32:46.120 --> 00:32:48.630
water people. Like we're working on
00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:51.670
stuff that is essential for everyone's
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:54.750
life. Like these are not optional
00:32:54.760 --> 00:32:58.710
systems or services or outcomes. And so,
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:01.550
we can This is doable. This is not
00:33:01.560 --> 00:33:02.870
You've done the hard stuff. You've
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:05.150
become a water expert. Now you need to
00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:06.590
become
00:33:06.600 --> 00:33:10.070
a neighbor and a grandkid and a parent
00:33:10.080 --> 00:33:12.750
and be able to switch hats at the right
00:33:12.760 --> 00:33:13.830
moments.
00:33:13.840 --> 00:33:18.070
>> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. That reminds me of like
00:33:18.080 --> 00:33:20.070
that aspect of
00:33:20.080 --> 00:33:21.590
um
00:33:21.600 --> 00:33:24.030
of just as you grow up in general,
00:33:24.040 --> 00:33:25.710
sometimes, you know, sometimes I'm like,
00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:28.230
"Oh, man, I
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:30.670
I need to remember what it's like to be
00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:33.870
a kid and just to to know that I was
00:33:33.880 --> 00:33:35.310
like
00:33:35.320 --> 00:33:37.910
curious and also not like more
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:40.110
uninhibited. Um
00:33:40.120 --> 00:33:41.390
And just
00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:43.470
yeah, like could just lean in and that
00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:44.990
like the more knowledge you get, then
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.590
sometimes the more um sometimes that can
00:33:47.600 --> 00:33:49.110
come with more anxiety of like, "Am I
00:33:49.120 --> 00:33:50.270
saying it right? Am I doing it right?"
00:33:50.280 --> 00:33:52.030
But if like you said, like if you give
00:33:52.040 --> 00:33:53.870
it a go, like a lot of times people will
00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:55.230
be like,
00:33:55.240 --> 00:33:56.190
I
00:33:56.200 --> 00:33:58.870
I see the authenticity and the like,
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:00.870
"Okay, like we can we can work cuz
00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:02.670
there's like
00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:05.990
Yeah, it's when we bottle up and say,
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:07.230
"You're
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:09.510
Oh, what are you hiding? Like I feel
00:34:09.520 --> 00:34:10.950
like you're not saying something." And
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:11.950
yeah.
00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:13.510
>> Or the pressure of needing to give a
00:34:13.520 --> 00:34:15.070
right answer. I think one of the things
00:34:15.080 --> 00:34:17.990
that I is under appreciated is like
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:21.030
asking a question rarely gets you into
00:34:21.040 --> 00:34:22.750
the papers for saying something. Like
00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:24.350
asking a question and waiting for an
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:28.030
answer. Whereas the pressure to give the
00:34:28.040 --> 00:34:29.790
answer
00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:32.710
to someone is That's a different thing.
00:34:32.720 --> 00:34:34.869
And I think a lot of times as we get
00:34:34.879 --> 00:34:37.470
further into our careers the expectation
00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:40.389
is that we are there to give an answer.
00:34:40.399 --> 00:34:42.950
And we're not. We're there we are that
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:45.590
is nobody's job to give answers.
00:34:45.600 --> 00:34:49.750
The job in infrastructure in any sector
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:53.990
is to make people's lives better.
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:55.270
>> Yeah.
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:58.070
>> That's it. Right? Like that's it.
00:34:58.080 --> 00:35:01.350
And if you can hang on to that with both
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:03.790
hands and like shake yourself loose when
00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:07.110
you want to answer a question
00:35:07.120 --> 00:35:08.670
it's um
00:35:08.680 --> 00:35:10.750
I think it's protective because this
00:35:10.760 --> 00:35:12.750
plain language stuff it's not it's not
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:14.230
the stuff that gets into newspapers.
00:35:14.240 --> 00:35:15.350
It's not the stuff that's going to get
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:17.710
you in trouble. Just asking someone like
00:35:17.720 --> 00:35:18.630
hey
00:35:18.640 --> 00:35:20.470
what would it take for you to support
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:21.990
this project? Like what would it take to
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:23.550
make it suck less to have all this
00:35:23.560 --> 00:35:25.790
construction for 2 years?
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:27.390
That's not going to get you into trouble
00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:31.110
and I think so often the fear comes
00:35:31.120 --> 00:35:34.510
around getting the wrong answer.
00:35:34.520 --> 00:35:38.110
But there are very few wrong questions.
00:35:38.120 --> 00:35:40.910
And so there's actually a safety in it
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:43.550
that I want to really encourage folks to
00:35:43.560 --> 00:35:46.190
lean into. Like I promise you I live at
00:35:46.200 --> 00:35:48.070
the edge of all of my expertise every
00:35:48.080 --> 00:35:49.230
single day.
00:35:49.240 --> 00:35:52.630
And this is it's it's a way to just
00:35:52.640 --> 00:35:55.550
reduce the pressure on yourself.
00:35:55.560 --> 00:35:56.110
>> Yeah.
00:35:56.120 --> 00:35:58.310
>> This is so good Shalini.
00:35:58.320 --> 00:35:58.670
Yeah.
00:35:58.680 --> 00:36:00.870
>> Yeah. I know some of my take aways.
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:03.670
>> give we're giving so much. I'm almost
00:36:03.680 --> 00:36:05.430
scared that we're giving so much away
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:06.870
and
00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:08.790
to get the good stuff you need to come
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:11.110
to Catalyst. Like
00:36:11.120 --> 00:36:12.670
>> There's plenty more behind this.
00:36:12.680 --> 00:36:14.510
>> Yeah, I know. I'm like I'm like there
00:36:14.520 --> 00:36:15.430
there's a lot more.
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:18.110
>> think we're just scraping the surface.
00:36:18.120 --> 00:36:21.870
So so too like if people are are
00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:24.870
are listening obviously we'll talk about
00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:27.470
Catalyst and coming to Catalyst. If you
00:36:27.480 --> 00:36:30.070
know, they're like, I want to learn more
00:36:30.080 --> 00:36:33.630
about Preflective, how how
00:36:33.640 --> 00:36:35.950
you guys can work together, how you
00:36:35.960 --> 00:36:36.950
know, they're just interested in your
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:39.710
work, where would they find some of it?
00:36:39.720 --> 00:36:42.350
>> Oh, come come find us online, please. We
00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:46.150
are at precollective.org on the web and
00:36:46.160 --> 00:36:48.430
our whole team is on LinkedIn and very
00:36:48.440 --> 00:36:51.190
active. So, come say hello.
00:36:51.200 --> 00:36:53.590
We love when people come to us with
00:36:53.600 --> 00:36:56.910
questions, like um that early stage
00:36:56.920 --> 00:36:59.030
stuff. And
00:36:59.040 --> 00:37:01.910
I think one of my wish list for people
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:04.390
in the water sector is that
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:07.590
I hope we can use these skills to get
00:37:07.600 --> 00:37:10.230
better RFPs, so that we get more
00:37:10.240 --> 00:37:13.070
Hobokens and fewer buying a pump.
00:37:13.080 --> 00:37:14.030
>> Yeah.
00:37:14.040 --> 00:37:14.430
>> Mhm.
00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:16.910
>> Oh, that's a good that's good use.
00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:18.630
Well, yeah, so good. I And you know, I
00:37:18.640 --> 00:37:21.230
hope someone's takeaway, too, is that
00:37:21.240 --> 00:37:23.750
relieve the pressure on yourself. We can
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:25.590
ask questions, right? We don't have to
00:37:25.600 --> 00:37:27.470
come in and just inform inform. I think
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:29.230
the scary part of public meeting
00:37:29.240 --> 00:37:31.550
sometimes or community engagement is we
00:37:31.560 --> 00:37:33.310
don't have the answers, so we don't we
00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:35.550
just want to skip the step. So, I like
00:37:35.560 --> 00:37:37.910
how you relieved us of that. And yeah,
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:40.150
like Isaac said, if you of our listeners
00:37:40.160 --> 00:37:41.510
are hearing this
00:37:41.520 --> 00:37:44.830
before September of 2026, we hope to see
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:47.110
you in San Diego. Shalini is going to be
00:37:47.120 --> 00:37:48.910
there
00:37:48.920 --> 00:37:50.750
doing some great interaction, guiding us
00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:52.310
through a session, guiding us through
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:54.910
this work. Um and you can find that
00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:57.670
online. There'll be There'll be links in
00:37:57.680 --> 00:38:00.310
this podcast video and and wherever
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:02.030
you're finding that. So, and if not, we
00:38:02.040 --> 00:38:03.470
hope to see you at future Catalyst. We
00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:06.070
bring people like Shalini and
00:38:06.080 --> 00:38:07.950
experts we can learn from every single
00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:10.710
year. So, thanks so much for This was
00:38:10.720 --> 00:38:12.310
just so good today. Thanks for joining
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:12.590
us.
00:38:12.600 --> 00:38:14.550
>> Yeah. I can't believe this is my job. I
00:38:14.560 --> 00:38:16.470
love it. Um
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:17.470
yeah.
00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:21.150
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, thank thank you.
00:38:21.160 --> 00:38:23.310
And and again to our listeners, we're
00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:26.550
very excited that we get to
00:38:26.560 --> 00:38:28.550
kind of pull back the curtain a just a
00:38:28.560 --> 00:38:31.270
little bit on on what the experience is
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:33.910
like at Catalyst. And so, be sure to
00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:36.110
follow all those things. Um reach out,
00:38:36.120 --> 00:38:37.430
let us know
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:39.190
who you're who you're enjoying hearing
00:38:39.200 --> 00:38:40.910
from, and if there's anyone else that
00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:42.150
you're like, "Wow, they've got a great
00:38:42.160 --> 00:38:44.230
story of how they make water work." I
00:38:44.240 --> 00:38:46.350
love hearing that, too. And so, can't
00:38:46.360 --> 00:38:49.560
wait to see you next week.