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[Laurel]: Welcome to MACC Conversations, a workforce podcast from Metropolitan Alliance of Connected Communities.
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[Laurel]: Interested in checking out more MACC podcasts?
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[Laurel]: Listen in on Apple, Spotify, and Podbean.
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[Laurel]: I'm Laurel Hansen, MACC's program and member engagement director, and we're fortunate to be joined on this episode by Marlee James from Reviving Roots in Minneapolis.
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[Laurel]: Marlee is a licensed clinical counselor, trauma therapist, and the founder and CEO of Reviving Roots, an organization focused on black-centered, culturally responsive mental health and holistic wellness.
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[Laurel]: We're lucky to have this time with Marlee to learn more and to talk more.
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[Laurel]: Welcome, Marlee.
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[Laurel]: Thanks for joining us.
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[Marlee]: Thank you for having me.
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[Marlee]: I'm excited to have this conversation.
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[Laurel]: It is great to be with you again.
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[Laurel]: You did such a marvelous session at the Summit this year.
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[Laurel]: Our network's been eager to hear more from you, so we're glad you're with us.
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[Laurel]: You're the founder of Reviving Roots in Minneapolis, as I mentioned, which you began in 2019 with a focus on well-being and black mental health.
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[Laurel]: I'm reading your website and the headline says, empowering individuals and organizations through holistic mental health and wellness.
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[Laurel]: Will you fill us in a little more on the background and the direction of your work and what was unique going on in your life in 2019 that kind of instigated you to launch this endeavor?
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[Marlee]: Yeah.
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[Marlee]: So in 2019, that is actually when I got my full license as a therapist.
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[Marlee]: You know, as a therapist, you're supposed to, you know, you have to do your hours.
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[Marlee]: I got fully licensed in 2019 and I realized I really didn't want to have a boss anymore.
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[Marlee]: I was working in a lot of spaces that would say that they cared about like black community and marginalized communities in words, but not really in action.
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[Marlee]: So, you know, I would be on their website
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[Marlee]: They would have me as their main, therapist, but I was one of, I was the only black person in most of the spaces that I was working.
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[Marlee]: And while, we had a lot of folks coming in to see me, even small things like having magazines that represent our culture, having music that represents our culture, none of that was happening in those spaces.
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[Marlee]: And so I really wanted to
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[Marlee]: just kind of be by myself at that point just to kind of do my work.
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[Marlee]: But at the same time, 2019, I got fully licensed, then 2020 happened.
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[Marlee]: And it's a funny story because actually 2019 March, that was when I was looking for my space, like a space to do, to serve people.
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[Marlee]: And so I was obviously, I was really in denial because I was looking for throw pillows while everybody else was going to buy their bulk paper towels and toilet tissue,
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[Marlee]: I was looking for throw pillows for my space.
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[Marlee]: But COVID happened, George Floyd happened.
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[Marlee]: I had almost 100 people on my waiting list to receive services from me.
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[Marlee]: And they're all people who wanted a black therapist, a social justice oriented therapist.
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[Marlee]: And there's just not a lot of us doing this work.
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[Marlee]: And so, you know, what started as, you know, I just want to work on my own kind of turned into how do I meet this need?
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[Marlee]: And so Reviving Roots kind of changed into a holistic space because I knew there's not a lot of black therapists doing this work, but I also knew that I would send people to yoga or I would send people to do boxing or things that connect with your body and put you in relationship with other people.
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[Marlee]: And so that's kind of how the
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[Marlee]: I guess second iteration of Reviving Roots came to be.
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[Marlee]: It was, a holistic space.
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[Marlee]: We offered therapy, but also support groups and community events and wellness and massage, all with a black center.
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[Marlee]: And when I started, thank you.
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[Marlee]: Yes.
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[Marlee]: And so when I started creating that, I
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[Marlee]: I also noticed that it wasn't just individuals coming to receive services.
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[Marlee]: It was a lot of organizations who wanted support.
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[Marlee]: And so that's kind of where, that's kind of, yeah, how Reviving Roots has been used.
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[Marlee]: I just kind of have been going with what the community has been asking for so far.
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[Laurel]: Thank you.
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[Laurel]: Yeah, I think that's.
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[Laurel]: that's kind of, I think, where we intersect Reviving Roots and MACC at the organizational level.
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[Laurel]: And we're so glad that that's part of your evolution and part of your business model is going beyond the individual into the organization.
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[Laurel]: So yeah, you've worked at the intersection of mental health and trauma and then, as you mentioned, that organizational culture.
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[Laurel]: And that's really interesting to our network.
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[Laurel]: What are you seeing in today's workforce that really concerns you the most and what gives you hope?
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[Laurel]: You've probably learned some things from working with organizations over the years.
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[Marlee]: Yes, I have.
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[Marlee]: You know, Reviving Roots, we do a lot of workshops for organizations and we also lead retreats.
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[Marlee]: And a lot of times when people are coming in for retreats,
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[Marlee]: they are looking for support around how they can support their team.
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[Marlee]: It's usually leadership wanting a way to be able to support their team in an emotional capacity and create that sense of like safety in their workplace.
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[Marlee]: And so I think the thing that concerns me
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[Marlee]: is that, it's not already built in.
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[Marlee]: And it's definitely a cultural thing.
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[Marlee]: But the thing that gives me hope is that these leaders are actually looking for the support and looking for answers in like, yeah, how do we support, how do we support our staff?
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[Marlee]: How do we support the people who are doing really good work in the community, but also, you know, being
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[Marlee]: affected by that work at the same time.
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[Laurel]: Right.
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[Laurel]: Oh, I'm glad you mentioned that.
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[Laurel]: And that's lovely that you're there to do that, but that you recognize that the work is hard, right?
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[Laurel]: And it takes a toll.
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[Laurel]: And there is care needed to be resilient and to be able to continue to show up.
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[Laurel]: I think that many people think trauma is something separate from work, but experiences inevitably show up in the workplace.
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[Laurel]: And then we're also dealing with traumatic work at the same time.
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[Laurel]: At least the folks who are doing the services in the community, they definitely experience secondhand trauma.
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[Laurel]: How do you think that trauma influences the way people, how they communicate, how they lead, how they might collaborate?
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[Laurel]: how they just show up, even if they don't realize it.
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[Marlee]: Yeah, in response to that experience of secondary trauma, we actually hold secondary trauma groups for organizations.
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[Marlee]: And we've called them soul care groups as a way to kind of lighten the
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[Marlee]: the language.
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[Marlee]: Not everyone wants to label their experience as burnout or as trauma or as any of those things.
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[Laurel]: But there's all spectrum too, right?
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[Marlee]: Exactly.
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[Marlee]: And there is a spectrum.
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[Marlee]: And so what I noticed in those groups is that it is
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[Marlee]: the way that they're being affected is usually relationally.
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[Marlee]: There's a good amount of conflict.
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[Marlee]: And I've seen kind of the both sides of the spectrum where it is high conflict, high like aggression,
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[Marlee]: for lack of a better word, within a team.
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[Marlee]: And then I've also seen it where people are just kind of walking on eggshells and they don't want to bring anything up, but there's clear resentment in a lot of spaces.
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[Marlee]: And so I think a lot of times people talk about trauma
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[Marlee]: as maybe like a physical thing, but we don't also talk about how it impacts relationships.
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[Marlee]: And when those relationships are being impacted, when people aren't ready to say the thing or when they don't feel, or when they feel like anytime I say a thing, it's gonna be met with a strong defense, it's hard to get work done.
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[Marlee]: And it's hard to serve the people that you actually want to serve.
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[Marlee]: And so what I also notice is in addition to that high conflict within a team, there's also sometimes a sense of resentment towards the people that we're serving.
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[Laurel]: Can be.
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[Marlee]: Yeah.
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[Marlee]: Yep.
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[Laurel]: You know, it's interesting because we're hearing a lot about workplace psychological safety.
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[Laurel]: That's become really popular or popular might not be the right word, but that's become something that we've heard a lot of reference to.
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[Laurel]: But I wonder what it actually looks like in practice in terms of the habits and the behaviors that really help people feel safe and supported at work, especially when, like what you just said about this high trauma work and environment and potentially high conflict
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[Laurel]: what are some of those things that you advise and think that at work can really help people feel supported and safe?
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[Marlee]: Yeah, one of the things is the biggest thing is the culture.
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[Marlee]: And culture is created by those little habits or those little things that we kind of build into our day, that we build into our
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[Marlee]: our agendas or just even how we interact.
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[Marlee]: And so I'd say one of the things that we do at Reviving Roots that has worked pretty well so far is that we start every meeting with a check-in.
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[Marlee]: And the check-in is, it is based on, you know, we're all therapists.
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[Marlee]: So it's based on, you know, the
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[Marlee]: how we talk about how trauma affects our body.
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[Marlee]: So, if you're in the hot zone, then you are dysregulated.
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[Marlee]: There's a lot of things going on.
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[Marlee]: We don't have to say exactly what's going on in our personal lives or, you know, what's contributing to that, but just to know like, I am, I, this is my capacity.
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[Marlee]: to be able to take in information, this is my capacity to be able to move through any situation has been helpful.
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[Marlee]: So if you're in the hot zone, it's a bit tough, but if you're cool, then it's, you know, we can do some things.
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[Marlee]: And so just kind of having an understanding that is low lift about where everyone in your team is.
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[Marlee]: that day or in that moment is really helpful because then how to approach that person.
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[Marlee]: Another thing that I think has been helpful is just taking a breath.
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[Marlee]: One of the things that, we're responding to trauma.
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[Marlee]: And if we're responding to trauma, one of the things that's really important is that we
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[Marlee]: bring ourselves back to our awareness of our bodies.
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[Marlee]: Because a lot of times when we experience trauma, we're dissociating, we're far away from ourselves.
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[Marlee]: When we can bring ourselves back to our breath in any given moment, you can be in the middle of a conversation, you could be, I don't know, in the bathroom and on a break or whatever the thing is, not being afraid to take a pause and take a breath.
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[Marlee]: and creating a culture where that is acceptable.
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[Marlee]: Those are the two very, very small things that I think can help to create a culture where folks feel safe.
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[Laurel]: Yeah.
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[Laurel]: I appreciate they brought those up.
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[Laurel]: They're very practical and attainable.
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[Laurel]: right, accessible to folks.
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[Laurel]: And one of the things that I wanted to ask you about is, what are those intentional things that leaders can model?
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[Laurel]: Like what can they start doing and what can they start, those cultural habits that you're talking about or habits of your workplace culture?
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[Laurel]: And so, yeah, I just think checking in with the people,
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[Laurel]: making space and maybe reducing some of the urgency that allows people to take a pause, take a breath, those seem like really important and yet also very approachable things to do.
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[Marlee]: Yeah, I'll add one more thing that leaders can do specifically.
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[Marlee]: The first two were kind of everybody, but for leaders, I really think it's important to model taking a break.
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[Laurel]: Okay, leaders, listen up.
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[Marlee]: Take a break, okay?
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[Marlee]: Because if you are not taking a break, you're consistently modeling that we are crossing boundaries at every moment.
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[Marlee]: And those boundaries lead to, those lack of boundaries lead to burnout.
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[Marlee]: So taking a break is extremely important to model.
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[Marlee]: so that everyone else knows like I can do this.
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[Marlee]: We can we can all allow ourselves a little bit of time to care for ourselves.
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[Laurel]: I hope that came across loud and clear.
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[Laurel]: As someone who's been in nonprofit work for my entire career, I can say this is an area we need to bolster up.
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[Laurel]: Our leaders sometimes don't always model that great behavior, and it's important.
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[Laurel]: Take a break.
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[Laurel]: I love it.
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[Laurel]: You know, Reviving Roots really embodies all of these things, right?
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[Laurel]: You're a teacher, you're a guide, but how important that you're putting this energy into our community in Minneapolis, St.
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[Laurel]: Paul, Twin Cities.
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[Laurel]: it's a real leadership move for you to lead this organization in such a way that lifts up these things that can be so sorely lacking.
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[Laurel]: You started Reviving Roots.
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[Laurel]: I did a little research.
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[Laurel]: You started reviving roots because you wanted to create an organization that lived its values, not just talk about them.
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[Laurel]: I love that.
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[Laurel]: What advice would you give leaders, and you've already given quite a bit, but what advice would you give leaders who want to build cultures rooted in trust, accountability, and belonging?
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[Laurel]: So these are some things maybe beyond the wellness thing, getting more into, you know, like trust.
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[Marlee]: Yeah, I think the trust comes from doing what you say you're going to do.
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[Marlee]: And it does come from just kind of living your values.
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[Marlee]: And I won't say that I am perfect at that all the time.
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[Marlee]: I believe none of us are.
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[Marlee]: It's very hard to be, but I think the thing that makes it hard sometimes
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[Marlee]: is that is the lack of exploration into what those values actually are and what we hold dear.
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[Marlee]: And that those things can kind of change over time.
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[Marlee]: when I started Reviving Roots, I was not married.
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[Marlee]: I did not have children.
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[Marlee]: I was not responsible for a lot of the things that I'm responsible for now.
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[Marlee]: And so
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[Marlee]: over this time, my values have changed and I've had to reevaluate what those things are and how I embody them in an organization that started one way and has shifted and has shifted and has shifted.
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[Marlee]: And so I think the other piece that's coming to me now is hearing everyone's voice.
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[Marlee]: I think a lot of times
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[Marlee]: When I started Reviving Roots, it was just me.
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[Marlee]: And so the decisions were my own.
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[Marlee]: I didn't have a team to bring in, to ask their perspective, to kind of explore those things with.
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[Marlee]: And so I think it really does help with a sense of belonging and a sense of trust when people know that they
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[Marlee]: have contributed to your leadership.
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[Marlee]: They have contributed to your vision and that the team is always kept in mind when we're making decisions.
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[Laurel]: Yeah, I think that's great.
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[Laurel]: I mean, I think for you as a founder, right, you've had to really stop and say, okay,
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[Laurel]: We have shifted.
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[Laurel]: I love that how you talked about the shift in the organization in your life and how that really, you need to make space, right?
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[Laurel]: For other points of view, other values, other, you know, just what other people bring to the table.
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[Marlee]: Yeah, because
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[Marlee]: I mean, this is, and many listeners know, you're serving community.
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[Marlee]: And with the work that we do, it's our community serving our community.
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[Marlee]: And so it doesn't make sense to not hear where they're coming from.
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[Marlee]: Oh, exactly.
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[Marlee]: Yeah, we're trying to be a mirror for the community that we're serving.
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[Marlee]: So we want to make sure that their voices are heard.
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[Laurel]: Yeah.
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[Laurel]: I also like what you talked about exploring values.
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[Laurel]: And I think it's so easy in our sector, in our nonprofit sector, especially that, we've we have our we spend a lot of time developing values for the organization and they're on our website and we, showcase them and they're wonderful, but it's not that's not the end of it, right?
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[Laurel]: We have individual workplace values and we don't spend as much time thinking about and talking about those.
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[Marlee]: Yes, I've actually started to create those in-house values and those have been from experience. And I think that's the other thing that's nice and just kind of new is that time has passed now. Lots of people have come through and experienced Reviving Roots and we've experienced them both as staff and community.
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[Marlee]: And we get to say, what are the things that we value? So I've been talking with our staff about actually what those values should be.
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[Marlee]: And it's been it's been really cool.
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[Laurel]: Yeah. Not just the what we're doing, but how we're doing it. Yeah. And the thought that comes into it. You said earlier, sometimes people shy away from talking about burnout. I don't know. I think they interpret it as maybe something lacking in themselves or, you know, sometimes culture can say toughen up or, you know, deal with it or whatever those things are. But I do think more and more folks are
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[Laurel]: getting to a place where they're willing to acknowledge it and talk about it. And especially when we talk about this isn't an individual issue, right? This is what's causing the burnout. It's somehow embedded in our organizations and in our work. We know our work in the nonprofit sector is undervalued, underappreciated, and
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[Laurel]: that can lead to burnout. How do you think organizations and leaders can really think differently about, I don't know if we could prevent it, but preventing it, reducing it instead of just asking employees, hey, how can you be more resilient, right? It's more like the cause and effect.
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[Marlee]: Yes, I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. And I think as you were talking about the systems,
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[Marlee]: It feels like a kind of like a triple down situation, right? We have this culture and these systems that undervalue and under appreciate the work that we're doing. And both financially, emotionally, all of those things, right? I think a lot of times,
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[Marlee]: The culture doesn't acknowledge that. And then us as organizations don't acknowledge the systems that we're all functioning in.
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[Laurel]: Sounds like a dysfunctional circle to me.
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[Marlee]: Yes. So we end up mirroring the same things that we're trying to fix or trying to, you know, support other people through. And so, you know, I think it starts with organizations.
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[Marlee]: I know it almost feels scary. Every time I talk to somebody about this, it feels scary to say, but organizations recognizing when they're wrong and when they're mirroring what's going on in these systems, in this culture. Because I think the other thing that came to mind as you were kind of posing that question is that a lot of times
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[Marlee]: it's the trickle down. So individuals also undervalue and underappreciate their own contribution to the communities that we're serving. And I think that the more that we as organizations and organizational leaders can just point that out and say, no, look at what you're doing. Look at what you're contributing. This is wonderful. Look at the impact that you're having.
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[Marlee]: the more that we can kind of fight that narrative. And maybe even, again, we're all in, or, a lot of listeners are in nonprofits, so the funding is limited, but finding ways to, like to match the words with the actions in,
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[Marlee]: If it can't be financial, maybe it's building relationships within other organizations to be able to offer something to your staff.
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[Laurel]: Yeah, first steps, right? Right. Yeah, I agree. This has been a great conversation with you. I just have really gotten a lot out of it. Just a couple more things. I think I can squeeze a couple more conversation questions in.
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[Laurel]: First of all, we want to make sure that people can find you, Reviving Roots, learn more about your work and how people can work with you. And it might be looking at your revivingroots.com webpage and there is a whole for organization section, which I really appreciate. Tell us more about the way that organizations work with Reviving Roots.
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[Marlee]: so there's a few ways. So Reviving Roots, we work with mission-aligned organizations in order to serve the people that they're serving or to serve their employees or both. And so one of the ways is that we work with, we offer drop-in therapy services.
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[Marlee]: And so we partner with organizations like The Link and Avenues for Youth and a few others.
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[Laurel]: Great MACC members, both of them!
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[Marlee]: Yeah, in order to offer, yeah, drop-in services to their staff, I mean, to the youth that they're serving. Oh, cool. But we also support the staff through mental health workshops. So that's another way.
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[Marlee]: We offer support groups for that staff. So we offer those soul care groups to support people who are experiencing secondary trauma to help to name what's going on and kind of identify ways they can support themselves. And then we also have retreats. So we lead retreats for teams. We call them mini retreats. They're in our space in Loring Park in Minneapolis.
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[Marlee]: where we offer movement and facilitated discussion and some nourishment and just kind of create a space where people can feel held and maybe have some hard conversations about their team's wellness. And then the final thing is that we offer space rentals. So there's a lot of
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[Marlee]: lot of different kinds of events that have happened in our space. We've had weddings at Reviving Roots. We've had baby showers, but we also for organizations have had conferences. We've had just kind of space where they lead their own retreat or workshop. We also just have our conference room where people can hold a meeting if they want.
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[Marlee]: And so those are some of the ways that they can get in, tap in to Reviving Roots. And our website is reviving-roots.com/orgwellness.
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[Laurel]: Thank you for making that clear. And we'll include that too in our show notes.
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[Laurel]: I love hearing about all those resources. That's super helpful and how beautiful the way that you have partnered with organizations to support the work that they do. Thank you so much for doing that. I want to leave us on a hopeful note today and maybe just a little bit of a takeaway for listeners asking Marlee, what's one action every workplace can take this week to better support its people?
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[Marlee]: I think, I have two things.
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[Marlee]: The first is to just with everyone that you see on in your space, just kind of walking in, just telling people that you appreciate them. I think that goes a long way and relationships are really taken for granted. But that just that little thing actually coming from the heart and being true and genuine is really important.
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[Marlee]: The other thing I would say is asking, how people say, how are you? Maybe asking a second time, how are you doing really? And maybe just asking one person, because it might be a long conversation. But that, again, having that relational interaction with people, it really creates that sense of safety, that sense of belonging, and it goes a long way.
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[Laurel]: That's terrific. I feel better already having taken time to speak with you today. I really appreciate the conversation we've been able to have and that we're able to share in our MACC Conversations podcast. Thank you so much, Marlee. What a terrific conversation. I hope everyone goes and checks out Reviving Roots and takes a look at their resources as well. It's a real gift to the community.
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[Laurel]: Thank you, Marlee, for all you've shared with MACC today. And thanks, listeners, for tuning in. We appreciate you. And I'm saying that as Marlee advises from the heart. Thank you for listening. Don't miss MACC's monthly podcast episodes. Find us where you listen to podcasts on Apple, Spotify, and Podbean. Or you'll find our episodes directly on our website. Have an idea for a MACC podcast guest? Reach out to us. I'd love to hear from you. Thank you. Have a great day and be well. Goodbye.
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[Laurel]: Welcome to MACC Conversations, a workforce podcast from Metropolitan Alliance of Connected Communities.
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[Laurel]: Interested in checking out more MACC podcasts?
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[Laurel]: Listen in on Apple, Spotify, and Podbean.
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[Laurel]: I'm Laurel Hansen, MACC's program and member engagement director, and we're fortunate to be joined on this episode by Marlee James from Reviving Roots in Minneapolis.
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[Laurel]: Marlee is a licensed clinical counselor, trauma therapist, and the founder and CEO of Reviving Roots, an organization focused on black-centered, culturally responsive mental health and holistic wellness.
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[Laurel]: We're lucky to have this time with Marlee to learn more and to talk more.
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[Laurel]: Welcome, Marlee.
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[Laurel]: Thanks for joining us.
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[Marlee]: Thank you for having me.
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[Marlee]: I'm excited to have this conversation.
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[Laurel]: It is great to be with you again.
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[Laurel]: You did such a marvelous session at the Summit this year.
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[Laurel]: Our network's been eager to hear more from you, so we're glad you're with us.
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[Laurel]: You're the founder of Reviving Roots in Minneapolis, as I mentioned, which you began in 2019 with a focus on well-being and black mental health.
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[Laurel]: I'm reading your website and the headline says, empowering individuals and organizations through holistic mental health and wellness.
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[Laurel]: Will you fill us in a little more on the background and the direction of your work and what was unique going on in your life in 2019 that kind of instigated you to launch this endeavor?
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[Marlee]: Yeah.
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[Marlee]: So in 2019, that is actually when I got my full license as a therapist.
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[Marlee]: You know, as a therapist, you're supposed to, you know, you have to do your hours.
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[Marlee]: I got fully licensed in 2019 and I realized I really didn't want to have a boss anymore.
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[Marlee]: I was working in a lot of spaces that would say that they cared about like black community and marginalized communities in words, but not really in action.
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[Marlee]: So, you know, I would be on their website
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[Marlee]: They would have me as their main, therapist, but I was one of, I was the only black person in most of the spaces that I was working.
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[Marlee]: And while, we had a lot of folks coming in to see me, even small things like having magazines that represent our culture, having music that represents our culture, none of that was happening in those spaces.
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[Marlee]: And so I really wanted to
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[Marlee]: just kind of be by myself at that point just to kind of do my work.
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[Marlee]: But at the same time, 2019, I got fully licensed, then 2020 happened.
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[Marlee]: And it's a funny story because actually 2019 March, that was when I was looking for my space, like a space to do, to serve people.
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[Marlee]: And so I was obviously, I was really in denial because I was looking for throw pillows while everybody else was going to buy their bulk paper towels and toilet tissue,
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[Marlee]: I was looking for throw pillows for my space.
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[Marlee]: But COVID happened, George Floyd happened.
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[Marlee]: I had almost 100 people on my waiting list to receive services from me.
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[Marlee]: And they're all people who wanted a black therapist, a social justice oriented therapist.
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[Marlee]: And there's just not a lot of us doing this work.
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[Marlee]: And so, you know, what started as, you know, I just want to work on my own kind of turned into how do I meet this need?
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[Marlee]: And so Reviving Roots kind of changed into a holistic space because I knew there's not a lot of black therapists doing this work, but I also knew that I would send people to yoga or I would send people to do boxing or things that connect with your body and put you in relationship with other people.
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[Marlee]: And so that's kind of how the
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[Marlee]: I guess second iteration of Reviving Roots came to be.
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[Marlee]: It was, a holistic space.
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[Marlee]: We offered therapy, but also support groups and community events and wellness and massage, all with a black center.
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[Marlee]: And when I started, thank you.
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[Marlee]: Yes.
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[Marlee]: And so when I started creating that, I
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[Marlee]: I also noticed that it wasn't just individuals coming to receive services.
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[Marlee]: It was a lot of organizations who wanted support.
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[Marlee]: And so that's kind of where, that's kind of, yeah, how Reviving Roots has been used.
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[Marlee]: I just kind of have been going with what the community has been asking for so far.
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[Laurel]: Thank you.
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[Laurel]: Yeah, I think that's.
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[Laurel]: that's kind of, I think, where we intersect Reviving Roots and MACC at the organizational level.
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[Laurel]: And we're so glad that that's part of your evolution and part of your business model is going beyond the individual into the organization.
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[Laurel]: So yeah, you've worked at the intersection of mental health and trauma and then, as you mentioned, that organizational culture.
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[Laurel]: And that's really interesting to our network.
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[Laurel]: What are you seeing in today's workforce that really concerns you the most and what gives you hope?
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[Laurel]: You've probably learned some things from working with organizations over the years.
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[Marlee]: Yes, I have.
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[Marlee]: You know, Reviving Roots, we do a lot of workshops for organizations and we also lead retreats.
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[Marlee]: And a lot of times when people are coming in for retreats,
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[Marlee]: they are looking for support around how they can support their team.
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[Marlee]: It's usually leadership wanting a way to be able to support their team in an emotional capacity and create that sense of like safety in their workplace.
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[Marlee]: And so I think the thing that concerns me
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[Marlee]: is that, it's not already built in.
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[Marlee]: And it's definitely a cultural thing.
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[Marlee]: But the thing that gives me hope is that these leaders are actually looking for the support and looking for answers in like, yeah, how do we support, how do we support our staff?
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[Marlee]: How do we support the people who are doing really good work in the community, but also, you know, being
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[Marlee]: affected by that work at the same time.
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[Laurel]: Right.
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[Laurel]: Oh, I'm glad you mentioned that.
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[Laurel]: And that's lovely that you're there to do that, but that you recognize that the work is hard, right?
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[Laurel]: And it takes a toll.
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[Laurel]: And there is care needed to be resilient and to be able to continue to show up.
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[Laurel]: I think that many people think trauma is something separate from work, but experiences inevitably show up in the workplace.
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[Laurel]: And then we're also dealing with traumatic work at the same time.
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[Laurel]: At least the folks who are doing the services in the community, they definitely experience secondhand trauma.
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[Laurel]: How do you think that trauma influences the way people, how they communicate, how they lead, how they might collaborate?
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[Laurel]: how they just show up, even if they don't realize it.
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[Marlee]: Yeah, in response to that experience of secondary trauma, we actually hold secondary trauma groups for organizations.
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[Marlee]: And we've called them soul care groups as a way to kind of lighten the
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[Marlee]: the language.
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[Marlee]: Not everyone wants to label their experience as burnout or as trauma or as any of those things.
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[Laurel]: But there's all spectrum too, right?
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[Marlee]: Exactly.
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[Marlee]: And there is a spectrum.
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[Marlee]: And so what I noticed in those groups is that it is
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[Marlee]: the way that they're being affected is usually relationally.
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[Marlee]: There's a good amount of conflict.
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[Marlee]: And I've seen kind of the both sides of the spectrum where it is high conflict, high like aggression,
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[Marlee]: for lack of a better word, within a team.
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[Marlee]: And then I've also seen it where people are just kind of walking on eggshells and they don't want to bring anything up, but there's clear resentment in a lot of spaces.
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[Marlee]: And so I think a lot of times people talk about trauma
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[Marlee]: as maybe like a physical thing, but we don't also talk about how it impacts relationships.
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[Marlee]: And when those relationships are being impacted, when people aren't ready to say the thing or when they don't feel, or when they feel like anytime I say a thing, it's gonna be met with a strong defense, it's hard to get work done.
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[Marlee]: And it's hard to serve the people that you actually want to serve.
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[Marlee]: And so what I also notice is in addition to that high conflict within a team, there's also sometimes a sense of resentment towards the people that we're serving.
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[Laurel]: Can be.
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[Marlee]: Yeah.
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[Marlee]: Yep.
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[Laurel]: You know, it's interesting because we're hearing a lot about workplace psychological safety.
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[Laurel]: That's become really popular or popular might not be the right word, but that's become something that we've heard a lot of reference to.
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[Laurel]: But I wonder what it actually looks like in practice in terms of the habits and the behaviors that really help people feel safe and supported at work, especially when, like what you just said about this high trauma work and environment and potentially high conflict
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[Laurel]: what are some of those things that you advise and think that at work can really help people feel supported and safe?
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[Marlee]: Yeah, one of the things is the biggest thing is the culture.
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[Marlee]: And culture is created by those little habits or those little things that we kind of build into our day, that we build into our
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[Marlee]: our agendas or just even how we interact.
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[Marlee]: And so I'd say one of the things that we do at Reviving Roots that has worked pretty well so far is that we start every meeting with a check-in.
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[Marlee]: And the check-in is, it is based on, you know, we're all therapists.
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[Marlee]: So it's based on, you know, the
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[Marlee]: how we talk about how trauma affects our body.
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[Marlee]: So, if you're in the hot zone, then you are dysregulated.
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[Marlee]: There's a lot of things going on.
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[Marlee]: We don't have to say exactly what's going on in our personal lives or, you know, what's contributing to that, but just to know like, I am, I, this is my capacity.
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[Marlee]: to be able to take in information, this is my capacity to be able to move through any situation has been helpful.
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[Marlee]: So if you're in the hot zone, it's a bit tough, but if you're cool, then it's, you know, we can do some things.
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[Marlee]: And so just kind of having an understanding that is low lift about where everyone in your team is.
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[Marlee]: that day or in that moment is really helpful because then how to approach that person.
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[Marlee]: Another thing that I think has been helpful is just taking a breath.
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[Marlee]: One of the things that, we're responding to trauma.
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[Marlee]: And if we're responding to trauma, one of the things that's really important is that we
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[Marlee]: bring ourselves back to our awareness of our bodies.
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[Marlee]: Because a lot of times when we experience trauma, we're dissociating, we're far away from ourselves.
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[Marlee]: When we can bring ourselves back to our breath in any given moment, you can be in the middle of a conversation, you could be, I don't know, in the bathroom and on a break or whatever the thing is, not being afraid to take a pause and take a breath.
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[Marlee]: and creating a culture where that is acceptable.
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[Marlee]: Those are the two very, very small things that I think can help to create a culture where folks feel safe.
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[Laurel]: Yeah.
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[Laurel]: I appreciate they brought those up.
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[Laurel]: They're very practical and attainable.
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[Laurel]: right, accessible to folks.
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[Laurel]: And one of the things that I wanted to ask you about is, what are those intentional things that leaders can model?
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[Laurel]: Like what can they start doing and what can they start, those cultural habits that you're talking about or habits of your workplace culture?
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[Laurel]: And so, yeah, I just think checking in with the people,
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[Laurel]: making space and maybe reducing some of the urgency that allows people to take a pause, take a breath, those seem like really important and yet also very approachable things to do.
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[Marlee]: Yeah, I'll add one more thing that leaders can do specifically.
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[Marlee]: The first two were kind of everybody, but for leaders, I really think it's important to model taking a break.
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[Laurel]: Okay, leaders, listen up.
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[Marlee]: Take a break, okay?
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[Marlee]: Because if you are not taking a break, you're consistently modeling that we are crossing boundaries at every moment.
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[Marlee]: And those boundaries lead to, those lack of boundaries lead to burnout.
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[Marlee]: So taking a break is extremely important to model.
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[Marlee]: so that everyone else knows like I can do this.
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[Marlee]: We can we can all allow ourselves a little bit of time to care for ourselves.
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[Laurel]: I hope that came across loud and clear.
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[Laurel]: As someone who's been in nonprofit work for my entire career, I can say this is an area we need to bolster up.
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[Laurel]: Our leaders sometimes don't always model that great behavior, and it's important.
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[Laurel]: Take a break.
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[Laurel]: I love it.
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[Laurel]: You know, Reviving Roots really embodies all of these things, right?
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[Laurel]: You're a teacher, you're a guide, but how important that you're putting this energy into our community in Minneapolis, St.
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[Laurel]: Paul, Twin Cities.
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[Laurel]: it's a real leadership move for you to lead this organization in such a way that lifts up these things that can be so sorely lacking.
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[Laurel]: You started Reviving Roots.
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[Laurel]: I did a little research.
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[Laurel]: You started reviving roots because you wanted to create an organization that lived its values, not just talk about them.
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[Laurel]: I love that.
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[Laurel]: What advice would you give leaders, and you've already given quite a bit, but what advice would you give leaders who want to build cultures rooted in trust, accountability, and belonging?
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[Laurel]: So these are some things maybe beyond the wellness thing, getting more into, you know, like trust.
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[Marlee]: Yeah, I think the trust comes from doing what you say you're going to do.
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[Marlee]: And it does come from just kind of living your values.
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[Marlee]: And I won't say that I am perfect at that all the time.
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[Marlee]: I believe none of us are.
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[Marlee]: It's very hard to be, but I think the thing that makes it hard sometimes
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[Marlee]: is that is the lack of exploration into what those values actually are and what we hold dear.
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[Marlee]: And that those things can kind of change over time.
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[Marlee]: when I started Reviving Roots, I was not married.
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[Marlee]: I did not have children.
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[Marlee]: I was not responsible for a lot of the things that I'm responsible for now.
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[Marlee]: And so
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[Marlee]: over this time, my values have changed and I've had to reevaluate what those things are and how I embody them in an organization that started one way and has shifted and has shifted and has shifted.
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[Marlee]: And so I think the other piece that's coming to me now is hearing everyone's voice.
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[Marlee]: I think a lot of times
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[Marlee]: When I started Reviving Roots, it was just me.
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[Marlee]: And so the decisions were my own.
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[Marlee]: I didn't have a team to bring in, to ask their perspective, to kind of explore those things with.
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[Marlee]: And so I think it really does help with a sense of belonging and a sense of trust when people know that they
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[Marlee]: have contributed to your leadership.
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[Marlee]: They have contributed to your vision and that the team is always kept in mind when we're making decisions.
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[Laurel]: Yeah, I think that's great.
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[Laurel]: I mean, I think for you as a founder, right, you've had to really stop and say, okay,
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[Laurel]: We have shifted.
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[Laurel]: I love that how you talked about the shift in the organization in your life and how that really, you need to make space, right?
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[Laurel]: For other points of view, other values, other, you know, just what other people bring to the table.
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[Marlee]: Yeah, because
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[Marlee]: I mean, this is, and many listeners know, you're serving community.
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[Marlee]: And with the work that we do, it's our community serving our community.
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[Marlee]: And so it doesn't make sense to not hear where they're coming from.
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[Marlee]: Oh, exactly.
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[Marlee]: Yeah, we're trying to be a mirror for the community that we're serving.
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[Marlee]: So we want to make sure that their voices are heard.
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[Laurel]: Yeah.
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[Laurel]: I also like what you talked about exploring values.
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[Laurel]: And I think it's so easy in our sector, in our nonprofit sector, especially that, we've we have our we spend a lot of time developing values for the organization and they're on our website and we, showcase them and they're wonderful, but it's not that's not the end of it, right?
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[Laurel]: We have individual workplace values and we don't spend as much time thinking about and talking about those.
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[Marlee]: Yes, I've actually started to create those in-house values and those have been from experience. And I think that's the other thing that's nice and just kind of new is that time has passed now. Lots of people have come through and experienced Reviving Roots and we've experienced them both as staff and community.
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[Marlee]: And we get to say, what are the things that we value? So I've been talking with our staff about actually what those values should be.
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[Marlee]: And it's been it's been really cool.
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[Laurel]: Yeah. Not just the what we're doing, but how we're doing it. Yeah. And the thought that comes into it. You said earlier, sometimes people shy away from talking about burnout. I don't know. I think they interpret it as maybe something lacking in themselves or, you know, sometimes culture can say toughen up or, you know, deal with it or whatever those things are. But I do think more and more folks are
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[Laurel]: getting to a place where they're willing to acknowledge it and talk about it. And especially when we talk about this isn't an individual issue, right? This is what's causing the burnout. It's somehow embedded in our organizations and in our work. We know our work in the nonprofit sector is undervalued, underappreciated, and
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[Laurel]: that can lead to burnout. How do you think organizations and leaders can really think differently about, I don't know if we could prevent it, but preventing it, reducing it instead of just asking employees, hey, how can you be more resilient, right? It's more like the cause and effect.
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[Marlee]: Yes, I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. And I think as you were talking about the systems,
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[Marlee]: It feels like a kind of like a triple down situation, right? We have this culture and these systems that undervalue and under appreciate the work that we're doing. And both financially, emotionally, all of those things, right? I think a lot of times,
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[Marlee]: The culture doesn't acknowledge that. And then us as organizations don't acknowledge the systems that we're all functioning in.
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[Laurel]: Sounds like a dysfunctional circle to me.
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[Marlee]: Yes. So we end up mirroring the same things that we're trying to fix or trying to, you know, support other people through. And so, you know, I think it starts with organizations.
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[Marlee]: I know it almost feels scary. Every time I talk to somebody about this, it feels scary to say, but organizations recognizing when they're wrong and when they're mirroring what's going on in these systems, in this culture. Because I think the other thing that came to mind as you were kind of posing that question is that a lot of times
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[Marlee]: it's the trickle down. So individuals also undervalue and underappreciate their own contribution to the communities that we're serving. And I think that the more that we as organizations and organizational leaders can just point that out and say, no, look at what you're doing. Look at what you're contributing. This is wonderful. Look at the impact that you're having.
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[Marlee]: the more that we can kind of fight that narrative. And maybe even, again, we're all in, or, a lot of listeners are in nonprofits, so the funding is limited, but finding ways to, like to match the words with the actions in,
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[Marlee]: If it can't be financial, maybe it's building relationships within other organizations to be able to offer something to your staff.
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[Laurel]: Yeah, first steps, right? Right. Yeah, I agree. This has been a great conversation with you. I just have really gotten a lot out of it. Just a couple more things. I think I can squeeze a couple more conversation questions in.
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[Laurel]: First of all, we want to make sure that people can find you, Reviving Roots, learn more about your work and how people can work with you. And it might be looking at your revivingroots.com webpage and there is a whole for organization section, which I really appreciate. Tell us more about the way that organizations work with Reviving Roots.
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[Marlee]: so there's a few ways. So Reviving Roots, we work with mission-aligned organizations in order to serve the people that they're serving or to serve their employees or both. And so one of the ways is that we work with, we offer drop-in therapy services.
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[Marlee]: And so we partner with organizations like The Link and Avenues for Youth and a few others.
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[Laurel]: Great MACC members, both of them!
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[Marlee]: Yeah, in order to offer, yeah, drop-in services to their staff, I mean, to the youth that they're serving. Oh, cool. But we also support the staff through mental health workshops. So that's another way.
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[Marlee]: We offer support groups for that staff. So we offer those soul care groups to support people who are experiencing secondary trauma to help to name what's going on and kind of identify ways they can support themselves. And then we also have retreats. So we lead retreats for teams. We call them mini retreats. They're in our space in Loring Park in Minneapolis.
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[Marlee]: where we offer movement and facilitated discussion and some nourishment and just kind of create a space where people can feel held and maybe have some hard conversations about their team's wellness. And then the final thing is that we offer space rentals. So there's a lot of
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[Marlee]: lot of different kinds of events that have happened in our space. We've had weddings at Reviving Roots. We've had baby showers, but we also for organizations have had conferences. We've had just kind of space where they lead their own retreat or workshop. We also just have our conference room where people can hold a meeting if they want.
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[Marlee]: And so those are some of the ways that they can get in, tap in to Reviving Roots. And our website is reviving-roots.com/orgwellness.
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[Laurel]: Thank you for making that clear. And we'll include that too in our show notes.
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[Laurel]: I love hearing about all those resources. That's super helpful and how beautiful the way that you have partnered with organizations to support the work that they do. Thank you so much for doing that. I want to leave us on a hopeful note today and maybe just a little bit of a takeaway for listeners asking Marlee, what's one action every workplace can take this week to better support its people?
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[Marlee]: I think, I have two things.
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[Marlee]: The first is to just with everyone that you see on in your space, just kind of walking in, just telling people that you appreciate them. I think that goes a long way and relationships are really taken for granted. But that just that little thing actually coming from the heart and being true and genuine is really important.
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[Marlee]: The other thing I would say is asking, how people say, how are you? Maybe asking a second time, how are you doing really? And maybe just asking one person, because it might be a long conversation. But that, again, having that relational interaction with people, it really creates that sense of safety, that sense of belonging, and it goes a long way.
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[Laurel]: That's terrific. I feel better already having taken time to speak with you today. I really appreciate the conversation we've been able to have and that we're able to share in our MACC Conversations podcast. Thank you so much, Marlee. What a terrific conversation. I hope everyone goes and checks out Reviving Roots and takes a look at their resources as well. It's a real gift to the community.
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[Laurel]: Thank you, Marlee, for all you've shared with MACC today. And thanks, listeners, for tuning in. We appreciate you. And I'm saying that as Marlee advises from the heart. Thank you for listening. Don't miss MACC's monthly podcast episodes. Find us where you listen to podcasts on Apple, Spotify, and Podbean. Or you'll find our episodes directly on our website. Have an idea for a MACC podcast guest? Reach out to us. I'd love to hear from you. Thank you. Have a great day and be well. Goodbye.
