Listening with Annea Lockwood, Pioneering composer

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Welcome to Listening with China Blue. This is
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a podcast that focuses on how listening not only
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informs us about what is occurring in the world
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around us, but also helps us connect with others,
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build stronger businesses, strengthens our mental
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health, and become more creative and compassionate
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individuals. As more and more people practice
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attentive listening in a community, it becomes
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a community -building practice that strengthens
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our mental health as we learn from our neighbors.
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I will be interviewing people from all walks
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of life to learn how listening has informed them
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in their field and helped them to make intelligent
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decisions. They will be artists, musicians, composers,
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dancers, business people, psychologists, neuroscientists,
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and Buddhists, to name a few. About me, I'm an
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internationally exhibiting sound -based artist.
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In my work, Discovering Unheard Sounds, I realized
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that the core component that drove my work was
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simply listening. That realization put me on
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the path of speaking about and helping people
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learn to become better listeners. I began with
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leading sound walks, which I continue to do in
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the upstate New York region to help people learn
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to listen from nature. And now, tune your ears
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to this podcast to learn about the power of listening.
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And do pay attention until the end for further
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information on how to start your own listening
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practice, share it with others, and to support
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listening with China Blue. Ania Lockwood has
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a lifelong fascination with the visceral effects
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of sound in our environments and through our
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bodies. The way sounds unfold in their myriad
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of lifespans serves as a focal point for works
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ranging from concert music to performance art.
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to multimedia installations. What fascinates
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me about her work is that she doesn't simply
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record rivers, pianos, or environments. She allows
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them to reveal their own temporal lives. It is
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very different from composing with sound. It's
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composing through listening. Ania, it's such
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a pleasure to welcome you. Thank you. It's wonderful
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to be on your podcast. It's a lovely opportunity
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to chat with you. Yes, yes. And I love that you
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said it that way because I think of them as conversations.
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Great. And one of the questions that runs through
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every conversation in my podcast is how listening
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changes the way we understand ourselves and the
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world. Your work has always fascinated me because
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it asks us to hear sound not simply as music.
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but as something living, something that has presence,
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its own history, and even its own life. Looking
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back over your career, I'm curious, what has
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sound taught you that words could never? Oh,
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with sound, what instantly comes to mind is that
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with sound, I feel an immediate contact. And
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increasingly, that contact is with the... The
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phenomenon, person, natural phenomenon, whatever,
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generating the sound. It's an immediate contact.
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With words, I go through a translation process
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en route. And sound, I feel, and I can't quite
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explain this, but I feel I can hear the tactile
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nature of whatever is creating the sound to some
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extent. Get a sense of its physical nature. Oh,
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how wonderful. So you think of sounds almost
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as living beings. Oh, they're emanations from
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living beings, that's for sure. And Feldman once
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said something absolutely beautiful that stayed
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with me, the composer Morton Feldman. Let a sound
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live out its life. Those slow pieces of his and
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those slow piano pieces of his, for example,
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the sounds are allowed to resonate until all
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the resonance has died. And I love that. Sounds
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are not objects, you know. They're not something
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that we take as objects to manipulate. They're
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beings, in a sense. They are, in a way, alive.
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Or they manifest aliveness. So let's listen to
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the complete cycle of that aliveness that's being
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presented to us. Well, that's so fascinating
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because I think about the topic of time with
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your work. And you've kind of answered that in
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a way about allowing the sounds to live out their
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lives. But I was wondering how that impacts us
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as humans also. Does it reveal that time has
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always been moving differently than we imagined?
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Oh, time. I'm not quite sure how to answer that.
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Time is so variable to begin with. My experience
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of time is so variable. So I can be down in the
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studio. Working on a sound mix and it can take
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a couple of hours over a minute, for example,
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but it doesn't feel like a couple of hours. Depending
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on the time of day, it can either feel very short
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or late in the evening, it can feel very long.
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Interacting with one's bodily state. In any case,
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time is palpably elastic. And so I think I conclude
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that it's always elastic for us. We just find
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it a lot more convenient to chop it into chunks,
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discrete chunks. But I don't think that's how
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we really experience it. So, and time. I'm given
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to making these sound maps of rivers, which go
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on forever. They're very long, depending on the
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length of the river. So with those, for example,
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I never decide initially, well, the Danube's
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going to take an hour and a half. The Hudson's
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shorter. It should take three quarters of an
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hour. They take as long as they take, according
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to how many sites I found to record and the eventual
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outcome of how I put them all together. They're
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installations. They're intended as physical installations,
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actually. And also the season. The season will
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change it, too. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. So
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the lovely thing about physical installations
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is you can come and go and take them in as big
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a chunk as you want. A little like you're going
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to eat the entire carton of ice cream or you're
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going to have, say, a quarter of it in one go.
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For some people, that's enormous discipline,
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I think. It is for me, that's for sure. So what
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about from a river's vantage point? Do you think
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a river knows? Something that people might not
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know? Oh, I'm sure of it. Perhaps another way
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of thinking about it is that a river works with
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such things as magnetic fields and types of soil,
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types of rock, types of vegetation. which we
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have much less immediate apprehension of. Yeah,
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I think a river knows, in a sense, a river knows
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a lot that we don't know. I was walking down
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the end of the Danube in the delta, at the end
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of the delta, the mouth of the Danube, late in
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the process of working on that piece one afternoon
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and looking at the river and seeing how it was
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carving out its bank in... marshy terrain and
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suddenly it clicked you know after this was the
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fourth year i was working on the danube so after
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coming on up coming up to four years it suddenly
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clicked that rivers have agency that river is
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determining where it's going to carve out a little
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more of the bank or whether it's going to just
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slide past a little rocky out cropping And leave
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the bank alone. That is a form of agency. Not
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in human terms, but in other terms, in broader
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terms. It was funny. It was a thrilling realization.
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And it's never left me. That's quite beautiful.
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Do you think rivers can teach us how to listen?
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I think anything that we listen to with really
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deep absorption, because we're fascinated by
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it. is teaching us how to listen to something
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which is not our immediate physical selves. You
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know? Yes. Just perhaps in the sense that if
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you're fascinated by a sound, you tend to listen
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to it longer and longer. And as you hear more
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and more of the details with that sort of extended...
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attention, you want to keep on listening to it.
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And if it's an event structure, you want to see
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what happens. If it's an ongoing, continuous
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flow, you want to dig further into it. It's almost
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like a story. It's telling its own story, right?
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Oh, yeah, precisely. That's beautiful. That's
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exactly what's happening. It is teaching us how
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to listen, you know. But we have to be open to
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that possibility to begin with. Right? And its
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own language. And its own language, yeah. Which
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is a complicated language, actually, with water.
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Oh, all those water accents. All those dialogues.
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And the Easter region has its own style of presenting
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sound. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Yes. Subject
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to atmospheric conditions. Oh, yes. And where
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you're standing in relation to the sound of the
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source. There are so many variables. I mean,
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it's such a rich experience. There are umpteen
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variables at play. I've been curious recently
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about the sounds in water that runs around glaciers.
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Have you been on glaciers listening? No, I'm
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wanting to go really badly. I'm hoping maybe
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next year I will go. But when I think about water
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and glaciers, I think about how glaciers formed
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the Hudson Valley. And that has this long history,
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a long sonic history based on geological time.
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That's interesting to think about. And I wonder
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how we can, obviously we can't capture that,
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but it takes my mind down that rabbit hole. It's
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a great rabbit hole to go down. Do it. Go. Which
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pack of glaciers would you most like to encounter?
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Where would you most like to go, do you think?
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I haven't honed in to exactly where. And when,
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but it's sited on my horizons. Maybe in Canada,
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maybe in Newfoundland, or maybe in the Antarctic.
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You know, those are the three locations that
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are on the question list. When and how will I
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go? Oh, go. It's a great idea. You would be totally
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fascinated, I would think. But really, back to
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you. I've been thinking a lot about your work.
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There's so much of your work that ranges. stylistically,
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but I think that one of the key components is
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about Well, maybe I should step back a couple
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of steps because in my experience, whether I
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was listening to meteorite impacts for NASA or
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recording the Eiffel Tower and discovering the
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sounds of Saturn's rings for various projects
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I've been working on, it brought me back to the
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idea of sonic relationships. And I was thinking
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about your work in that similar way, how it creates
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relationships. Can you say a little more? Well,
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I think that it's between you and the object
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that you're recording, and you're creating a
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relationship with that. But the object that you're
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recording in the acoustics that it's producing
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is, in a sense, responding to its environment
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and reaching you. Yes, absolutely. So it's a
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quasi -dialogue. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And
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as it keeps... responding in its own within its
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own capabilities and vocabulary so to speak to
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the sounds that if I'm producing sound that I'm
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putting into it that relationship just sort of
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intensifies if it's responding to my listening
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without actually generating sound myself then
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I'm not sure that the process is two -sided.
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I am learning to listen. It's teaching me to
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listen. I'm not sure what effect I'm having on
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it. If I'm quiet, listening, recording, it would
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be fun to think I was. Well, maybe it's operating
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on geological time. There you go. A lot quicker
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than geological time, a lot shorter. But yes,
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you're right. It is about sound as a medium of
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relationship. Sure. Between entities, living
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entities, phenomena, biological and other phenomena.
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Yeah. And it's about paying attention. It's always
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about paying attention, right? Oh, it is. Yeah.
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And that's such a simple idea, too. Yeah. Yeah,
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isn't it? Yeah. And in the sense of it's such
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a revolutionary idea. And then you could skip
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from that to paying attention to one another.
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Oh, dear. And then we get into enormously complex
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terrains. Back into relationships. Yeah. There
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you go. There you go. But, you know, about that,
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you talk about the visceral nature of sound,
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and it's something that can be experienced through
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the whole body rather than just the ears. Yeah.
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So I was wondering, how do you understand listening
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as a bodily experience? I've read discussions
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of how sound affects various bodily functions.
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sensitized to my blood pressure levels moment
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by moment, for example, but totally accept that
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it does. Sound vibrations do affect my physical
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processes, my immediate physical processes. Why
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would they not? They're powerful. They entrain
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our bodies, I think. So they're all wonderful.
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And I keep coming back to this idea that because
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those vibrations pull our body into some sort
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of connection with them. They are literally a
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medium of connection to whatever is generating
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the vibrations in the first place. It's a conversation
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already. And from there we can go a little further,
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maybe. If I'm aware that... tree roots, for example,
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the tulip tree roots in my backyard. It's a great
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big tulip tree, which is magnificent, just lording
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it over the backyard. If I'm aware that the tree
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roots are generating vibrations as they move,
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take on nutrients and give nutrients, pass on
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nutrients and so on, then I feel that I can sense
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that life under my feet. It's a beautiful feeling,
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a feeling of deep connection to the tree. And
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whether it's imaginary or whether it's actually
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physical is not something I can begin to figure
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out. But as far as I'm concerned, it's physical
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and it is a form of connection. And so I pay
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attention to the well -being of the tree. Yes.
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Well, when I think of sound in that way, I'm
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imagining the zigzaggy shape that you see when
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it comes through on your keyboard or when you're
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listening to a piece of music. And if you have
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a couple of tracks, you see them merging together.
00:18:08.380 --> 00:18:16.140
And it becomes an illustration of how sound meshes
00:18:16.140 --> 00:18:19.789
from one source to the other. Yeah. Exactly.
00:18:19.789 --> 00:18:22.710
That's beautiful. Exactly right. Yeah. It's very
00:18:22.710 --> 00:18:31.509
clear. So conversations between the non -human
00:18:31.509 --> 00:18:34.670
and the human, more than human and the human,
00:18:34.769 --> 00:18:40.710
going on all the time, I suspect, you know? Yes,
00:18:40.710 --> 00:18:45.650
yes. Attention really is the key, right? Attention,
00:18:45.730 --> 00:18:53.609
which... allows you to slow down, pause, and
00:18:53.609 --> 00:18:56.930
just take in what you're feeling, absorb what
00:18:56.930 --> 00:19:02.390
you're feeling, and let that flow, as opposed
00:19:02.390 --> 00:19:05.789
to sort of a quick mental check mark, ah, that
00:19:05.789 --> 00:19:07.730
was interesting, and moving on immediately to
00:19:07.730 --> 00:19:13.569
the next sensation, basically. Just staying with
00:19:13.569 --> 00:19:17.250
one feeling, one sensation, one sense of awareness.
00:19:18.269 --> 00:19:24.190
for a while is key, I think. So you're talking
00:19:24.190 --> 00:19:27.170
about paying attention to the whole life of the
00:19:27.170 --> 00:19:31.789
sound. Yeah, yeah. Or if it's an ongoing, continuing
00:19:31.789 --> 00:19:36.170
sound, which is often the case, just paying attention
00:19:36.170 --> 00:19:40.289
for a sustained amount of time, you know? Yeah,
00:19:41.089 --> 00:19:43.170
we always assume that eventually they'll stop,
00:19:43.230 --> 00:19:45.269
but there are some sounds that won't stop on
00:19:45.269 --> 00:19:49.869
their own. That's right, right. At PS21, Matthew
00:19:49.869 --> 00:19:54.309
Gold and Valejo and Gantner and I are working
00:19:54.309 --> 00:19:57.210
on a project called Home Ground, in which we're
00:19:57.210 --> 00:20:01.569
inviting local people to come to the beautiful
00:20:01.569 --> 00:20:05.650
site, to various sites, actually, in the beautiful
00:20:05.650 --> 00:20:08.750
grounds of PS21, where we've set up specially
00:20:08.750 --> 00:20:13.569
made chairs, Adirondack -style chairs, really
00:20:13.569 --> 00:20:17.680
relaxing to sit in. settle down in one of these
00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:21.099
chairs and start listening to the sonic environment
00:20:21.099 --> 00:20:25.900
there in that place and do it for at least half
00:20:25.900 --> 00:20:29.839
an hour so paying attention sustained attention
00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:35.180
over a period of time more than a quick glance
00:20:35.180 --> 00:20:39.140
as it were you know i think is key and then beyond
00:20:39.140 --> 00:20:41.339
that what we're asking people to do is make a
00:20:41.339 --> 00:20:43.960
note in some form or another in some medium that's
00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:46.779
comfortable to them of what they've been hearing
00:20:46.779 --> 00:20:50.079
or what they are hearing, sound mapping that
00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:53.400
little location and to go back several times
00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:56.460
in the year. But key to it are two things, physical
00:20:56.460 --> 00:20:59.119
stillness, so you're not distracting yourself
00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:06.160
by fidgeting, right? And time, at least a half
00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:10.319
an hour. Ooh, with today's cell phone -focused
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:15.190
environment, that must really test people. But
00:21:15.190 --> 00:21:17.470
you know what was fascinating? We've done three
00:21:17.470 --> 00:21:19.529
workshops on this and people have already started
00:21:19.529 --> 00:21:24.990
doing it. And in response to our invitation to
00:21:24.990 --> 00:21:27.769
come to the first workshop, several people said,
00:21:27.809 --> 00:21:29.690
I'll be happy to do it as long as I don't have
00:21:29.690 --> 00:21:37.589
to bring my iPhone. There. Yes. Oh, that was
00:21:37.589 --> 00:21:41.019
great. And so, of course, we said. Of course
00:21:41.019 --> 00:21:43.079
you don't. And to those who wanted to bring their
00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:45.819
iPhones, we said, sure, just map with your iPhone
00:21:45.819 --> 00:21:48.160
of that most convenient medium for you to use
00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:50.500
without having to think too hard about it, you
00:21:50.500 --> 00:21:53.880
know, the most convenient tool. But it was striking
00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:57.799
how several people said that. They just wanted
00:21:57.799 --> 00:22:02.079
to be present there, listening. Oh, that's so
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:05.359
wonderful that people are actually interested
00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:10.000
in electing to be present. Wasn't it? Isn't it?
00:22:10.380 --> 00:22:15.519
Yes. We were delighted, you know. It was really,
00:22:15.539 --> 00:22:20.660
really thrilling to hear and to see. So do you
00:22:20.660 --> 00:22:23.579
think that listening in that illustration would
00:22:23.579 --> 00:22:27.779
make us more compassionate? Oh, I think so. Oh,
00:22:27.779 --> 00:22:31.079
yes, I think so. I've said several times, but
00:22:31.079 --> 00:22:33.599
it remains true that sometimes people respond
00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:38.529
to the idea of the river maps by... seeking out
00:22:38.529 --> 00:22:41.369
the river they most love and almost all of us
00:22:41.369 --> 00:22:44.470
have some water spot water location that we truly
00:22:44.470 --> 00:22:47.369
love sometimes it's what we grew up with sometimes
00:22:47.369 --> 00:22:49.569
it's still accessible to us sometimes it's something
00:22:49.569 --> 00:22:53.309
new to us but almost always is some water location
00:22:53.309 --> 00:22:59.509
and sometimes the response comes back that they
00:22:59.509 --> 00:23:03.250
started working on restoration of blocked water
00:23:03.250 --> 00:23:10.299
channels Getting debris out of the way, starting
00:23:10.299 --> 00:23:12.779
to work on pollution issues with other people
00:23:12.779 --> 00:23:16.880
in the area. Caring. In other words, listening
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:21.799
leading to caring. Oh, that's a beautiful way
00:23:21.799 --> 00:23:26.380
of putting it. I think it happens. It happens
00:23:26.380 --> 00:23:29.680
with visual elements. You know, I think it happens
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.819
without it being outlined and bullet point and
00:23:32.819 --> 00:23:38.529
directed and explained. Illustrated and workshopped.
00:23:39.609 --> 00:23:47.569
Without it becoming dogma. Exactly. Yeah. I hate
00:23:47.569 --> 00:23:51.410
dogma. I do too. Without it becoming didactic.
00:23:52.730 --> 00:23:57.289
Yeah. So with Homeground, we've made it as open
00:23:57.289 --> 00:24:00.190
and free as possible, as little didactic as possible.
00:24:02.170 --> 00:24:05.089
Takes a half an hour. Takes a while to get into.
00:24:05.500 --> 00:24:08.599
that mode of being in an environment. But beyond
00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:11.359
that, everything is as open as possible. We give
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:14.759
you a chair to sit in. And it creates an opportunity
00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:19.940
to have a visceral experience that people would
00:24:19.940 --> 00:24:23.640
not necessarily gravitate to on their own. Yeah,
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:26.819
yeah. And above all, we often don't think we've
00:24:26.819 --> 00:24:31.319
got time to do that. Oh, of course. But we have.
00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:35.900
You just have to make it. Yeah, that's right.
00:24:36.019 --> 00:24:38.619
You have to give yourself that gift, right? You
00:24:38.619 --> 00:24:40.500
have to feel you're worth that gift, perhaps.
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:43.380
I mean, maybe it comes down to that. But in any
00:24:43.380 --> 00:24:45.099
case, you need to feel you can give yourself
00:24:45.099 --> 00:24:47.500
that gift. And it's not going to send you a whole
00:24:47.500 --> 00:24:52.859
day into chaos. Well, I've learned a lot over
00:24:52.859 --> 00:24:55.940
the last couple of years through an unpleasant
00:24:55.940 --> 00:25:00.099
medical experience I've been dealing with. And
00:25:00.099 --> 00:25:07.349
what it, no, no, don't grimace. Because, yeah,
00:25:07.450 --> 00:25:11.250
what it taught me was to live in the moment.
00:25:13.910 --> 00:25:17.829
And yeah, it is a trick for me because I'm always
00:25:17.829 --> 00:25:21.250
scheduling and planning and focusing on, you
00:25:21.250 --> 00:25:23.369
know, something in the future that I have to
00:25:23.369 --> 00:25:26.710
manage today to make it happen. And it taught
00:25:26.710 --> 00:25:31.589
me that my body had to define the next things
00:25:31.589 --> 00:25:36.150
that I could or could not do. So if I had a thought
00:25:36.150 --> 00:25:39.430
or a question of whether I would be up to this
00:25:39.430 --> 00:25:42.450
particular task, whether it's a simple thing
00:25:42.450 --> 00:25:46.190
of writing an email or walking to the door or
00:25:46.190 --> 00:25:48.750
going to the kitchen or getting a glass of water,
00:25:48.809 --> 00:25:54.170
I would ask myself of my body, am I capable of
00:25:54.170 --> 00:25:58.579
doing this? Should I be doing this? What is my
00:25:58.579 --> 00:26:01.799
body telling me I can or cannot do? And it's
00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:05.700
very micromanagement in the sense of living in
00:26:05.700 --> 00:26:08.960
the world. But it taught me that if I take one
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:12.180
breath and pay attention to the moment, that
00:26:12.180 --> 00:26:19.140
I know what the next moment will be. It unfolds
00:26:19.140 --> 00:26:24.859
for you? It completely unfolds for me. It's an
00:26:24.859 --> 00:26:28.359
illustration of giving yourself up to the universe,
00:26:28.420 --> 00:26:30.460
which I never quite understood what that meant.
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:38.319
What a great teaching. What lovely learning.
00:26:39.819 --> 00:26:44.359
I'm getting more focused on my planning and my
00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:47.960
organizing activities, which it's second nature
00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:53.019
to me. I continue to try to remind myself that
00:26:53.019 --> 00:26:56.799
I should just take it one step at a time and
00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:00.240
let it unfold. And you never know what you will
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:02.880
be faced with. That's the amazing part. If you
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:06.059
plan your life away, you've organized everything
00:27:06.059 --> 00:27:08.859
and there's no surprises. There's nothing that
00:27:08.859 --> 00:27:12.099
will take you as a human being into another.
00:27:13.049 --> 00:27:16.230
Another world, another idea, another insight.
00:27:16.349 --> 00:27:20.329
So overplanning is not helpful in the long term.
00:27:20.390 --> 00:27:22.549
It just makes you feel like you have some control
00:27:22.549 --> 00:27:25.670
of the world, which you really don't. Yes, exactly.
00:27:25.869 --> 00:27:31.089
It's a sort of a crutch, I guess. Yeah. And it
00:27:31.089 --> 00:27:33.890
makes one feel, sometimes it makes one feel good
00:27:33.890 --> 00:27:38.029
about oneself, effective, efficient. But as you
00:27:38.029 --> 00:27:42.220
say, you've missed so much en route. So many
00:27:42.220 --> 00:27:46.059
possibilities got closed off en route. Very wise.
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:53.420
Well, that's what life can teach us. Yeah, it's
00:27:53.420 --> 00:27:58.500
a big one. And field recording is a great lesson
00:27:58.500 --> 00:28:00.119
in that because you never know what's going to
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:04.140
happen next in an environment. You don't know
00:28:04.140 --> 00:28:07.420
what might change or not change, but eventually
00:28:07.420 --> 00:28:13.039
change. I do long takes. very often. I'm usually
00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:16.920
not seizing a sound, so to speak, because I can't.
00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:20.859
It sort of evaporates into thin air as soon as
00:28:20.859 --> 00:28:26.859
I got my mic set up. But rather just letting
00:28:26.859 --> 00:28:30.539
myself be there and see what's happening in that
00:28:30.539 --> 00:28:33.920
place, what unfolds, what happens next. Just
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:37.059
let the sound out accumulate. It's just a sound
00:28:37.059 --> 00:28:43.859
card. Well, fortunately it is nowadays. And fortunately
00:28:43.859 --> 00:28:46.900
we can make these long, long, long recordings.
00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:51.099
It reminds me of when I was miking the Eiffel
00:28:51.099 --> 00:28:54.740
Tower and I didn't really know what I would discover.
00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:59.220
It was one of those research projects that, you
00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:01.819
know, well, let's just see what happens. Yeah.
00:29:02.180 --> 00:29:06.920
And I didn't anticipate that the actual iron
00:29:06.920 --> 00:29:11.779
of the Eiffel Tower. would resonate the sounds
00:29:11.779 --> 00:29:16.500
of the water as it was raining against it. Oh,
00:29:16.500 --> 00:29:19.440
really? Oh, of course it did. Oh, how beautiful.
00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:22.759
And then the wind would cause it to slightly
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:28.079
vibrate. Yeah. And so I realized, oh, and another
00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:31.500
one was when the elevators are going up and down
00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:35.440
the leg, of course that creates vibrations. Yeah.
00:29:36.009 --> 00:29:38.650
But finally, there were the sounds of the voices
00:29:38.650 --> 00:29:42.769
inside the elevators that translated through
00:29:42.769 --> 00:29:47.130
the iron. Wow. So the vibrations of the voices
00:29:47.130 --> 00:29:52.150
were captured by the actual material. So it was
00:29:52.150 --> 00:29:54.089
as if you were eavesdropping on what the iron
00:29:54.089 --> 00:29:58.829
was experiencing. I frame it as I was experiencing
00:29:58.829 --> 00:30:02.650
the voice of the Eiffel Tower. Yeah. How thrilling.
00:30:02.869 --> 00:30:08.200
How fascinating. Yeah. And did you do long takes?
00:30:09.460 --> 00:30:15.279
As long as I was allowed to be there. Yeah. When
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:17.500
were you doing this? It sounds like a beautiful
00:30:17.500 --> 00:30:21.000
project. It was a beautiful project. It was some
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:23.839
years ago now. I don't remember the exact year,
00:30:23.980 --> 00:30:27.839
but it was just such a memorable project. But
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:31.440
it brought me to this idea of establishing relationships
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:37.250
with sound. Yeah. Yeah. And intangible relationships,
00:30:37.569 --> 00:30:44.250
aren't they? They don't impact your skin directly,
00:30:44.390 --> 00:30:49.329
so to speak. Sort of intangible. Maybe not. Maybe
00:30:49.329 --> 00:30:52.369
not, actually. I think the vibrations are totally
00:30:52.369 --> 00:30:58.569
tangible. Because they invade your body. Yeah,
00:30:58.589 --> 00:31:00.869
which is what we were just talking about. Yeah,
00:31:00.910 --> 00:31:04.279
so they're tangible in that way. It's just that
00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:07.599
we don't perceive the vibrations as they're moving
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:10.759
through our body. But I think that our bodies
00:31:10.759 --> 00:31:15.940
absorb the sonic vibrations, and that's a component
00:31:15.940 --> 00:31:19.839
of sound that makes it palpable in a sense. It
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:23.000
adds to the emotional experience of listening.
00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:27.980
Makes me wonder if one reason why so many of
00:31:27.980 --> 00:31:31.259
us love really low sounds, really low sounds,
00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:33.829
is because they're slow enough. for us to be
00:31:33.829 --> 00:31:37.690
aware of how they're moving through our bodies
00:31:37.690 --> 00:31:41.269
and what they're doing to us, right? Well, it
00:31:41.269 --> 00:31:44.390
also could maybe be if one would look at the
00:31:44.390 --> 00:31:48.150
peaks of the low vibrations, I would compare
00:31:48.150 --> 00:31:52.910
that in a research project to the range of the
00:31:52.910 --> 00:31:55.990
sound of a heartbeat and to see if they have
00:31:55.990 --> 00:32:00.430
a similar frequency range. Yeah. Ah, that's a
00:32:00.430 --> 00:32:03.450
really fascinating idea. And then you'd have
00:32:03.450 --> 00:32:05.869
to factor in the possibility that the actual
00:32:05.869 --> 00:32:09.049
sound waves, the waves themselves, are entraining
00:32:09.049 --> 00:32:14.769
the heart. Oh, well. Right? Well, that's, you
00:32:14.769 --> 00:32:17.750
know, a 10 or 20 year long research project.
00:32:17.849 --> 00:32:20.009
I think that we should get some funding for,
00:32:20.089 --> 00:32:30.980
for sure. Oh, that's beautiful. Well, that. Brings
00:32:30.980 --> 00:32:34.140
up the question of relationships again. The question
00:32:34.140 --> 00:32:38.059
of maybe through entrainment that we are establishing
00:32:38.059 --> 00:32:48.019
a relationship with sound. Hmm. Yes. As one channel.
00:32:48.339 --> 00:32:55.759
Yeah. That seems highly likely if the actuality
00:32:55.759 --> 00:32:58.710
of entrainment is strong enough. Yeah. Sure.
00:32:58.990 --> 00:33:04.910
Of course. Of course. Yeah. We would have to
00:33:04.910 --> 00:33:07.329
establish first that entrainment occurs, but
00:33:07.329 --> 00:33:12.569
I get the funny suspicion that we're on the verge
00:33:12.569 --> 00:33:18.470
of discovering that. You know, there's all this
00:33:18.470 --> 00:33:20.630
research in the medical field about ultrasound
00:33:20.630 --> 00:33:24.970
and applying ultrasound. And that's a form of
00:33:24.970 --> 00:33:28.990
sound that we cannot hear. And yet it's being
00:33:28.990 --> 00:33:33.049
used into the body. So I think that opens up
00:33:33.049 --> 00:33:37.450
a window that should be looked into. Yeah, yeah,
00:33:37.470 --> 00:33:41.069
I agree. I agree. And those parts of the body
00:33:41.069 --> 00:33:44.230
which are specifically affected by certain ultrasound
00:33:44.230 --> 00:33:50.410
frequencies and so on are absolutely forming
00:33:50.410 --> 00:33:56.779
a relationship. between the source of the ultrasound
00:33:56.779 --> 00:34:01.779
and the listener's body, actual physiological
00:34:01.779 --> 00:34:07.819
direct relationship. So what if the source of
00:34:07.819 --> 00:34:12.059
the ultrasound is a tree? Cavitating, drying,
00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:17.179
in drought. Exactly. Exactly. Cavitating up its
00:34:17.179 --> 00:34:25.619
veins. Good question. These might be just pointers
00:34:25.619 --> 00:34:29.559
that we can refine things down to, but which
00:34:29.559 --> 00:34:37.280
validate a sense of feeling that through listening,
00:34:37.380 --> 00:34:44.059
we make connection to other beings, other forms
00:34:44.059 --> 00:34:50.039
of energy. That it's what we always do. We just
00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:55.489
need to. Or we don't need to, but it's nice to
00:34:55.489 --> 00:35:01.710
recognize it. It's enriching to recognize it,
00:35:01.769 --> 00:35:05.190
I think, yeah. And certainly I think it can't
00:35:05.190 --> 00:35:08.769
help but affect how we work, you know, how we
00:35:08.769 --> 00:35:12.449
are around other creatures. I'm increasingly
00:35:12.449 --> 00:35:16.550
less likely to stomp bugs in my house as I work
00:35:16.550 --> 00:35:21.079
more and more. with these interactions and think,
00:35:21.179 --> 00:35:23.159
well, that's a small life I'm extinguishing.
00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:26.539
I really don't have any right. Let's put the
00:35:26.539 --> 00:35:29.340
bug outside. But, you know, what it comes down
00:35:29.340 --> 00:35:31.780
to is that again and again and again, I read
00:35:31.780 --> 00:35:35.219
about how everything is interconnected. So if
00:35:35.219 --> 00:35:38.659
we want to take one species out of the story,
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:44.360
it's going to change the whole story. And the
00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:48.760
story that we're talking about is a non -indigenous
00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:53.260
story, right? Because indigenous knowledge recognizes,
00:35:53.340 --> 00:35:57.679
seems over and over and over again to recognize
00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:00.679
those deep connections that everything is interconnected.
00:36:01.260 --> 00:36:08.699
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And I've interviewed a couple
00:36:08.699 --> 00:36:12.219
of indigenous people from this area to talk to
00:36:12.219 --> 00:36:15.380
them about their viewpoint of listening, because
00:36:15.380 --> 00:36:18.360
I don't know anything about indigenous life.
00:36:18.539 --> 00:36:22.159
I know the history, but I don't know the lived
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:26.300
experience. And the knowledge that's passed on
00:36:26.300 --> 00:36:30.119
from generation to generation is really critical
00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:33.980
because it's an oral history culture. I always
00:36:33.980 --> 00:36:36.900
feel that it's important to talk to the indigenous
00:36:36.900 --> 00:36:40.199
people, to share and learn from their knowledge,
00:36:40.219 --> 00:36:42.940
because it needs to be honored and respected
00:36:42.940 --> 00:36:46.820
because it's so knowledgeable and deep. Yes,
00:36:46.860 --> 00:36:50.519
exactly, exactly. And so it's completely integrated
00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:53.139
with the environment, the planetary environment.
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:58.179
Yeah, respectful. Yeah, yeah. But also respectful
00:36:58.179 --> 00:37:04.039
of each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This really
00:37:04.039 --> 00:37:08.380
is an interesting process. It has such wide ramifications.
00:37:11.380 --> 00:37:15.460
But it's going to take a long time for it to
00:37:15.460 --> 00:37:19.480
have significant impact. Yes, it is. Yes, it
00:37:19.480 --> 00:37:24.699
is. That's the part that I become impatient about
00:37:24.699 --> 00:37:31.320
because we need change yesterday. And change
00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:33.480
comes really fast, but not always the change
00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:41.300
that we're looking for. Right? Yeah. Oh, so well
00:37:41.300 --> 00:37:43.719
put. So that's why, you know, living in the moment
00:37:43.719 --> 00:37:52.179
is critical. Yeah, yes. Critical for one's well
00:37:52.179 --> 00:37:56.559
-being on top of everything else, right? Yes,
00:37:56.559 --> 00:38:00.219
because you cannot anticipate the future. Yeah.
00:38:00.300 --> 00:38:06.400
So you just sit down and listen. That's my new
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:14.840
position. No expectations. I try not to. I really,
00:38:14.860 --> 00:38:18.400
really try not to because the world will unfold
00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:25.159
as it will and as sounds will. And each sound
00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:32.329
has its own life's journey. So allowing it to
00:38:32.329 --> 00:38:38.349
tell its own story is, I think, important as
00:38:38.349 --> 00:38:44.449
we loop back to the original topic. Yeah. It's
00:38:44.449 --> 00:38:49.210
really important. But that brings up the question
00:38:49.210 --> 00:38:55.260
of using listening as a compositional tool. How
00:38:55.260 --> 00:38:58.260
does it get integrated, or how does it drive
00:38:58.260 --> 00:39:05.440
your compositions? Oh, I may not even know. We
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:08.760
all listen. I'm beginning to want to say more
00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:13.400
and more often, we are all good listeners. We
00:39:13.400 --> 00:39:19.199
have to be to survive with any equilibrium. We
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:24.159
have to be good listeners to begin with. Perhaps
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:27.139
rather than trying to teach each other how to
00:39:27.139 --> 00:39:30.800
listen, we're trying to suggest you're already
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:34.519
listening. Just trust it. That's the key component.
00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:39.960
Trust it. Yeah, trust it. Don't doubt it. Don't
00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:42.340
doubt it. You're doing it already, you know.
00:39:43.300 --> 00:39:45.519
Therefore, because we're all good listeners,
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:51.159
you know, that is. The absolutely irreducible
00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:55.280
foundation of working with sound and creating
00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:58.820
music with others and so on. So it determines
00:39:58.820 --> 00:40:02.179
everything. It determines the sound, the actual
00:40:02.179 --> 00:40:05.900
sounds that I'm drawn to, that I want to record
00:40:05.900 --> 00:40:12.079
if I can. The way I feel about working with other
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:16.230
musicians and actually... How I feel has become
00:40:16.230 --> 00:40:17.949
clearer and clearer to me over the years, and
00:40:17.949 --> 00:40:20.650
it's led me to deeper and deeper levels of collaboration,
00:40:20.769 --> 00:40:25.130
being namely that, for example, performers give
00:40:25.130 --> 00:40:28.630
so much of themselves in performance, are so
00:40:28.630 --> 00:40:31.610
generous with themselves, with their whole selves
00:40:31.610 --> 00:40:34.789
when they're performing. That's a great gift.
00:40:35.349 --> 00:40:38.690
And first step in acknowledging that for me was
00:40:38.690 --> 00:40:41.469
giving more and more room for performers to improvise
00:40:41.469 --> 00:40:44.820
and adjust. kept wanting to move further and
00:40:44.820 --> 00:40:49.760
further towards a really deep connection with
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:54.039
the performer until now i don't see it as composer
00:40:54.039 --> 00:40:56.619
performers at all and that's not the reality
00:40:56.619 --> 00:40:59.820
it's um it's truly creating something together
00:40:59.820 --> 00:41:02.679
co -composing i call it which is a rather dry
00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:06.480
term but it conveys a wonderful experience lovely
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:11.639
experience so um What I've discovered in that
00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:14.179
experience is that it's just like everything
00:41:14.179 --> 00:41:17.500
else that we've spoken about, is that when you're
00:41:17.500 --> 00:41:21.340
co -composing or improvising with somebody, you're
00:41:21.340 --> 00:41:23.800
creating something brand new in the very moment.
00:41:24.179 --> 00:41:29.960
So it is an ongoing unfolding of surprises. Yes.
00:41:30.820 --> 00:41:33.760
And it continues to be, even when a piece has
00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:38.800
settled down. taken its form its shape and its
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:41.940
details uh recur you know from performance to
00:41:41.940 --> 00:41:44.659
performance even then it continues to be full
00:41:44.659 --> 00:41:47.980
of surprises which is just delicious yeah it
00:41:47.980 --> 00:41:53.360
is it is and it's all based on listening of course
00:41:53.360 --> 00:42:00.380
it's so foundational and the funny part is is
00:42:00.380 --> 00:42:02.619
that when you go back and listen to it again
00:42:02.619 --> 00:42:06.650
after you've recorded it It is its own story
00:42:06.650 --> 00:42:09.929
and it contains its own surprise elements that
00:42:09.929 --> 00:42:12.570
you had missed when you were actually performing
00:42:12.570 --> 00:42:14.789
because you were paying attention to other things.
00:42:15.429 --> 00:42:19.590
Exactly, exactly. Claire Chase and I are going
00:42:19.590 --> 00:42:22.570
to be bringing our co -composed piece Elwha to
00:42:22.570 --> 00:42:29.050
PS21. at the end of August. And we're looking
00:42:29.050 --> 00:42:31.489
forward to doing that tremendously. We have a
00:42:31.489 --> 00:42:34.869
couple of performances scheduled precisely because
00:42:34.869 --> 00:42:38.829
that piece keeps unfolding new surprises as we
00:42:38.829 --> 00:42:41.590
perform it. We just did only its second performance
00:42:41.590 --> 00:42:46.090
in Finland. So the PS21 performances will be
00:42:46.090 --> 00:42:48.889
the third and fourth. And the piece just keeps...
00:42:49.389 --> 00:42:52.010
showing us new possibilities each time we play
00:42:52.010 --> 00:42:56.710
it. So it's sort of flexible and growing and
00:42:56.710 --> 00:43:01.869
forming new margins, which then sort of break
00:43:01.869 --> 00:43:04.690
apart the next performance. I mean, it's great
00:43:04.690 --> 00:43:08.789
fun to work with and great fun to see how it
00:43:08.789 --> 00:43:14.050
keeps sort of organically, really, it feels like
00:43:14.050 --> 00:43:16.570
a really organic process. It keeps organically
00:43:16.570 --> 00:43:21.460
growing. And changing and flexing, as it were,
00:43:21.579 --> 00:43:25.059
each time we play it. Oh, how beautiful. That's
00:43:25.059 --> 00:43:27.480
what you were talking about. That's exactly what
00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:30.360
you were talking about. You know, that process.
00:43:30.579 --> 00:43:36.099
It's a lovely process, isn't it? Oh, I'm hugging
00:43:36.099 --> 00:43:39.139
myself to try and express that sense of a blanket
00:43:39.139 --> 00:43:42.099
holding you in and being so cozy and warm and
00:43:42.099 --> 00:43:45.539
satisfying. I was thinking about your relationship
00:43:45.539 --> 00:43:49.780
with Clara Chase. The fact that you are able
00:43:49.780 --> 00:43:56.300
to continue this as an ongoing exercise in working
00:43:56.300 --> 00:44:01.239
together is quite beautiful and rich and so satisfying
00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:03.500
and rewarding. It's almost like you're creating
00:44:03.500 --> 00:44:07.219
a new, the word is not species, but that's the
00:44:07.219 --> 00:44:08.900
one that comes to my mind at this particular
00:44:08.900 --> 00:44:13.920
moment. It's a live, almost biological element
00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:16.260
that keeps on moving forward and forward and
00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:20.099
forward. in defining itself. And perhaps it's
00:44:20.099 --> 00:44:24.280
universal for sure, a universal process and ancient
00:44:24.280 --> 00:44:29.480
and perhaps that's how field songs evolved in
00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:32.380
a very similar process as people kept singing
00:44:32.380 --> 00:44:35.579
them while working different crops under different
00:44:35.579 --> 00:44:39.119
conditions and so on. The songs themselves would
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:46.219
flex and change and take on new contours. get
00:44:46.219 --> 00:44:50.760
longer and, you know, evolve. And the great bands
00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:54.760
do that constantly. Oh, yes. Right? It's this
00:44:54.760 --> 00:44:59.739
wonderful, old, basic, marvelous, rich process.
00:45:00.099 --> 00:45:04.400
Yeah. And it's the basis of jazz, isn't it? That's
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:06.880
what I was meaning by the great bands. Yes, exactly.
00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:11.480
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Not just jazz, all genres,
00:45:11.780 --> 00:45:14.539
but yes, very clearly. Well, yes, all genres,
00:45:14.599 --> 00:45:18.659
but... Particularly in jazz. Yeah, exactly. And
00:45:18.659 --> 00:45:23.860
it's fun. It's fascinating. It really is fun.
00:45:24.780 --> 00:45:27.679
So we're having fun with that. I'm doing the
00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:29.800
same thing with Nate Woolley with a piece we
00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:33.599
have becoming air and have been doing it with
00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:38.639
Jan Weier. To encounter musicians who are up
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:41.920
for this and who particularly love doing this
00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:45.719
is such a... It's such a gift. I mean, amazing.
00:45:46.840 --> 00:45:54.519
And it is fun. So the fluidity of things just
00:45:54.519 --> 00:45:58.980
always constantly amazes me, no? Absolutely.
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:03.099
And, you know, I'm surprised that we only have
00:46:03.099 --> 00:46:06.380
a few minutes left on our conversation together.
00:46:06.460 --> 00:46:09.340
So I wanted to ask you if there's anything else
00:46:09.340 --> 00:46:16.880
you want to add to this. Trust your own listening.
00:46:17.420 --> 00:46:21.960
Trust that you are listening deeply. And that
00:46:21.960 --> 00:46:29.159
it's nourishing you. Know it. Somebody asked
00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:31.139
recently, what's the perfect way of listening?
00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:33.860
And the group of us to whom the question was
00:46:33.860 --> 00:46:36.679
addressed just blinked. I mean, a perfect way
00:46:36.679 --> 00:46:40.360
of listening. The way you listen. The way you
00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:43.119
love to listen is your perfect way of listening.
00:46:45.099 --> 00:46:50.480
And it's different. Just trust it, you know.
00:46:53.019 --> 00:46:55.679
Ania, this is absolutely wonderful. Thank you
00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:58.099
for your generosity and your gift of listening.
00:46:58.739 --> 00:47:01.340
Oh, thank you for giving me the chance to think
00:47:01.340 --> 00:47:05.739
about it with you. What a pleasure. I'm hoping
00:47:05.739 --> 00:47:08.159
that we will have future conversations on this
00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:13.300
topic. It would be lovely. Thank you. Your ears
00:47:13.300 --> 00:47:16.760
have a great summer. Thank you for listening
00:47:16.760 --> 00:47:19.119
to this episode of Listening with China Blue.
00:47:19.500 --> 00:47:22.420
I hope it inspires you to build your own listening
00:47:22.420 --> 00:47:26.059
practice. This begins as a daily practice of
00:47:26.059 --> 00:47:30.380
attentively listening without judgment. And ask
00:47:30.380 --> 00:47:35.039
yourself, what is your version of silence? If
00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:37.039
you want to learn more about me and my work,
00:47:37.179 --> 00:47:40.840
go to ChinaBlueArt .com and please follow me
00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:44.550
on Facebook and at Instagram. Thank you.