Andrew Jackson Part 2: Populist Politics, The Trail of Tears, and the Creation of the American Presidency

WEBVTT
00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:22.160
Hello folks, and welcome back to History's Devils.
00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:34.320
It's a podcast journey through whatever it is that I normally say that's completely flown out of my head right now because it's part two of Andrew Jackson.
00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:35.280
That's all you need to know.
00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:37.600
It's part two of Andrew Jackson.
00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:47.439
And we are going to be looking at his rise to the presidency here because the thing is, this guy, and we we've dwelt on this already in part one, the duality of this man.
00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:50.960
We have talked about Warrior Jackson in part one.
00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:56.560
Here we're gonna see what happens when the warrior has to put on the suit and the Mr.
00:00:56.640 --> 00:00:59.119
Jackson goes to Washington and what that looks like.
00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:04.560
And uh it's a wild fucking ride, I think is the neatest way to put it.
00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:06.799
So to recap, it's 1821.
00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:22.480
Andrew Jackson has become a national hero, a notorious duelist, a uh controversial bigamist, and uh effectively the conqueror or or the or the tamer of Florida, which as you'll recall was the site of Jackson's uh latest war, Seminole War.
00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:27.840
As a consequence of that war, Spain starts saying, you know what, this Florida thing isn't worth the trouble.
00:01:28.079 --> 00:01:50.400
And so in 1821, they finally cede the territory to the United States, setting us on the path to Disney World, Universal Studios, theme parks of various types, endless strings of beach side bars serving coconut shrimp and cocktails, and of course, the musical genius of rappers like Kodak and my personal favorite Flowrider.
00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:52.000
See what he did there?
00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:52.799
See what he did there?
00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:55.920
And let us not forget the Florida man.
00:01:56.159 --> 00:01:56.560
We now know.
00:01:56.959 --> 00:01:58.000
The Florida man as well.
00:01:58.079 --> 00:01:58.560
The Florida man.
00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:00.079
Beloved Florida man.
00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:01.439
The beloved Florida man.
00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:12.800
Which just to just to break that down for people who aren't aware, the the Florida man meme or whatever it is, this idea that there's it's someone who, you know, uh caught trying to marry a gator in a swamp, Florida man.
00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:13.199
Yeah.
00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:22.159
It if I'm right, isn't there actually a law in Florida that says you can't name folks, and that's why it's always said Florida man, or is that just Yes.
00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:25.520
Okay, so there is actually a reason why they're called Florida Man.
00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:31.759
But yeah, but I also think it is true that crazy stuff happens down there, that weather will do something too after a while.
00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:32.719
It will, it will.
00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:34.560
Recognizable types.
00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:42.000
So um so the original Florida man, Andrew Jackson, becomes governor of Florida in 1821.
00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:44.080
He still wants to be a general, though.
00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:45.680
You know, this guy likes fighting.
00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:46.879
He really likes fighting.
00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:49.120
And if you don't believe me, check out episode one.
00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:51.599
This this guy likes likes a scrap.
00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:53.360
But his health is shot.
00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:55.120
I mentioned this in the first episode.
00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:56.800
He he deals with poor health.
00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:01.280
I mean, everyone deals with poor health in this period because you know, there's no there's no fucking nutrition.
00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:04.319
People are people are you know eating what they can find in the street.
00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:12.719
It's it's not he's a frontier guy, so you know he's eaten the the early 19th century equivalent of roadkill on Christ knows how many occasions.
00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:17.360
So God knows what gut bacteria, bad bacteria he's got going on.
00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:19.599
Because it is mostly digestive issues.
00:03:19.759 --> 00:03:22.879
He can't really eat, he certainly can't put weight on.
00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:30.080
He is still this rail thin, emaciated looking creature, sort of revenant looking uh beast.
00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:36.479
And in a letter to a friend, and I love this quote, again, the kind of language in this time period I wish people still spoke like this.
00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:44.719
He writes to a friend, I have recently been visited by my old bowel complaint, which has weakened me very much, having a constant flow.
00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:48.879
In the last 12 hours, I have had upwards of 20 passages.
00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:51.680
That's my out of office message.
00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:57.680
It's the most poetic way I've ever heard someone say, you know what, I've got the shits and I've got it.
00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:04.960
But it's not just it's not just his bowels, his lungs are also uh a bit of a problem.
00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:10.319
Although he does write again to the same friend, they have improved, but are far from clear.
00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:13.520
I continue to throw up great quantities of phlegm.
00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:17.360
It's just got a persistent, you know, it's it's both ends.
00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:17.839
Yeah.
00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:26.319
And I'll put up this portrait right now of him looking a little bit like Gary Oldman in Dracula to give you this idea of you know these later portraits of him.
00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:28.160
And and again, this is portraiture.
00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:34.079
This is where you're meant to paint the subject in the best possible light, and he still looks like the walking fucking dead.
00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:37.199
Um because he is uh because physically he's a wreck.
00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:41.439
But in terms of ambitions, he's as brimming with vitality as ever.
00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:55.920
It's pointed out to him at this moment in 1821, you know, riding high, uh by those around him, including his wife Rachel, who admits through gritted teeth because she wants him home resting, possibly getting better if he can.
00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:01.519
Even she has to admit that this guy has got a mass following by the early 1820s.
00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:04.000
He's got a reputation as a great leader.
00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:09.360
He cannot fight anymore physically, but he could perhaps enter the arena of politics.
00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:23.600
And so he goes for the presidency in 1824, but Jackson has to compete with other Democrats for the nomination, one of whom is a man by the name of Henry Clay, who basically becomes one of his nemesis.
00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:31.360
He's a lawyer from Virginia, he's a Republican, he's against slavery, or at least its expansion.
00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:33.680
I think that's an important qualifier.
00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:36.959
Um, that tends to be where a lot of people sit at these times.
00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:40.560
It's like, yeah, slavery is fine, but let's not have so much more of it.
00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:47.600
Another guy who Jackson has to contend with is John Calhoun, who he hates almost as much, but perhaps not as much as Clay.
00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:52.240
And in fact, he voices support for Calhoun initially as a presidential candidate in 1824.
00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:57.839
Regardless, Jackson later says of both men, and this is one of his greatest quotes I have only two regrets.
00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:00.639
I didn't shoot Henry Clay and I didn't hang John C.
00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:01.759
Calhoun.
00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:03.279
What a mensch.
00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:05.360
Yeah, God.
00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:08.160
Just mental health.
00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:11.120
It's a mental health crisis going on here.
00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:12.639
It's amazing.
00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:14.000
It's amazing.
00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:18.560
Um it's that it's that thing of these are your political peers.
00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:22.000
And and you know, you know, let's let's shoot and hang.
00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:29.279
Calhoun is on the vice presidential ticket with John Quincy Adams, who uh Ed, you mentioned him in the last episode.
00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:31.920
Uh a quick primer, who who is John Quincy Adams?
00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:33.120
Why does he matter?
00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:40.319
Yeah, John Quincy Adams, I would argue, is probably the most qualified person who ever ran and became president.
00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:43.519
Um, he's the son of the second president, John Adams.
00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:46.959
He is a young man during the American Revolution.
00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:51.759
He is a con he goes to the Senate representing Massachusetts.
00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:54.399
I think he's then the ambassador to Russia.
00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:58.240
Um, he's the Secretary of State under James Monroe.
00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:01.279
He's the guy who basically comes up with the Monroe Doctrine.
00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:02.879
He's the guy who writes that.
00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:11.519
Interestingly, as a wrinkle here, he's also the guy that saves Jackson's ass in terms of the First Seminole War in justifying it.
00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:22.560
So John Quincy Adams is the guy who has to go out to bat as Secretary of State to um his Spanish counterparts to say, look, I think Andrew Jackson was justified in what he did.
00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:32.399
So it's very interesting how this develops because Quincy Adams spends a lot of time thinking of how to defend Jackson, even though he doesn't quite condone what Jackson did.
00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:40.160
But it's very interesting to think of how this relationship ends up with these two men absolutely spitting fire at each other.
00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:41.360
Yeah.
00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:42.800
Um, you're right.
00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:51.600
I mean, he is abundantly overqualified for this, for the presidency, vice presidency, whatever John Quincy Adams wants to do, he can basically do.
00:07:51.759 --> 00:08:00.240
And this is an interesting juxtaposition because it's meant to be this presidential election, the ticket, Calhoun Adams, all the way.
00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:01.839
That's who's meant to win this.
00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:10.079
Jackson is the outsider, he's not establishment, and this is how he pitches himself because it's the only way he can.
00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:17.839
But it's a strong pitch, you know, he's for the people, he's risen from nothing, he's the guy from the backwater with the sword in his hand.
00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:20.000
Adams and Calhoun are for the elites.
00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:21.759
It's a story as old as time.
00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:27.600
This image is helped along by the fact that there is a lot of official opposition to Jackson.
00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:33.200
There's a lot of people in Washington who are going, This guy, this guy, not not here.
00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:41.519
Keep him out there fighting the natives, keep him out there, you know, being a militia leader, just keep him away from us.
00:08:41.679 --> 00:09:08.639
And this is what leads to, and I'll put a photo up here, these extraordinary bits of political propaganda, the so-called coffin hand bills that were put up by Jackson's political opponents, featuring testaments from people who are alleged to have known Jackson, all testifying to his brutality, claiming that he executed innocent men during the Creek War, the massacre of the Red Sticks, uh, but also more, you know, scurrilous, his his marriage with Rachel is brought up, dragged into the mud.
00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:12.000
They were incidentally legally married in 1794.
00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:16.000
Rachel first filed for divorce from her first husband in 1791.
00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:24.639
It's just that, you know, these things take time, but the the the spectre of bigamy sort of hangs over them, and he's still getting railed for this in the 1820s.
00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:41.759
One of the hand pills is written by a guy, or contains a testament from a guy called John Talafiero, who's a congressman who claimed that Jackson had, quote, slaughtered 1,000 native Indians, slept amongst their corpses, and then ate some of them for breakfast.
00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:46.559
So that's we think politics today is rough, right?
00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:48.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:51.200
And but this is kind of the start of it, right?
00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:58.240
Um, the election of 1800 between Thomas Jefferson and John Adams, that was known as quite contentious.
00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:04.799
But this is the real sort of dirt slinging stuff that we would associate with campaigns these days.
00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:19.279
And I would say it does relate to what you were saying about how a lot of the establishment in the United States really did just think, you know, Jackson's fine to send marauding off against Native Americans, but being in charge of the government, really.
00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:26.399
So there is this pushback from you know, this entrenched elite that do not want Jackson to be anywhere near it.
00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:29.200
Think of everyone who's been president up to this point.
00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:39.919
They're very rich, usually a Virginian planter, maybe they're from Massachusetts, usually from Virginia, but they're very rich, they you know are very much embedded into the central structures.
00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:43.120
Andrew Jackson is not that.
00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:44.720
Not at all.
00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:50.960
Um, and and yeah, he his his presence brings out that that nastiness, I think.
00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:58.960
There's a there's a there's a real vitriol, and he's he's got plenty of skeletons in the closet that they can get out and you know pick the bones and whack him with it.
00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:06.320
So we've got some parallels with today in terms of the viciousness and the the insults, quite frankly, that are just thrown around.
00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:15.120
But another parallel with today is that these past crimes don't really hurt Jackson because he's a populist, and populist politicians they get away with shit.
00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:16.639
That is the trick of being a populist.
00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:24.159
If you're a true populist, you can stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot someone and not get repercussions, as someone once said.
00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:30.480
Um I don't know, some guy, some guy, um big boxy suit, red tie.
00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:32.320
You'll see him around.
00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:33.679
You'll you'll you'll know him when you see him.
00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:34.320
Yeah, yeah.
00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:35.200
That guy.
00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:35.919
Yeah.
00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:43.360
The point is that populists are not held to the same moral standard as your typical button-down serious politician.
00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:48.320
That is the populist's grift, and this is a grift that Jackson gets onto.
00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:53.120
And the evidence that this is successful for him comes in the results of this election.
00:11:53.440 --> 00:12:00.720
Jackson got 42% of the popular vote for president, but John Quincy Adams still became president.
00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:02.000
He still loses out.
00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:04.799
Ed, how the hell does this work?
00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:11.519
I mean, look, that this is a forever, a forever problem is the Electoral College, how that works, how the U.S.
00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:12.159
system works.
00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.559
It it tends to befuddle those folks.
00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:19.440
It befuddles people within the U.S., certainly befuddles those without.
00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:20.799
What's going on here?
00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:22.879
Was the Electoral College different?
00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:24.399
Was the popular vote different?
00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:27.200
Is are there differences between then and now?
00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:36.399
Yeah, so there I think there are a few differences about this election to what we would understand an American election to be now that we need to outline.
00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:39.919
And you're right to say it's a very strange, weird election.
00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:44.399
But the first point to make is that you were saying before about Republicans and Democrats.
00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:50.480
This is not the Republicans or Democrats we would know today, not even the Republicans or Democrats of, say, the 1860s.
00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:57.519
The Republican Party doesn't exist, the Democratic Party doesn't exist, but what does exist are the Democratic Republicans.
00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:00.639
Um, and this is basically the hegemon.
00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:02.960
This is the Uni Party of the United States.
00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:04.559
They used to be the Federalists.
00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:10.799
You know, George Washington was sometimes ascribed a federalist, so he would be very much probably pushed back in that.
00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:16.240
But Federalists were, say, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, these kind of figures.
00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:22.000
After Adams's presidency ends in 1801, the Federalists don't really do that well.
00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:33.200
They kind of fall in on themselves, they are against the Louisiana Purchase, they even they even threatened to secede from the Union at one point during the War of 1812.
00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:35.679
So their credibility is completely burned.
00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:41.200
So by the point of uh the election of 1824, it is one party.
00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:43.039
It is the Democrats and Republicans.
00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:46.720
And James Monroe has been president for the past two terms.
00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:52.799
And such is the Uni Party that he didn't really run against anyone in 1820 when James Monroe was going for re-election.
00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:54.240
No one ran against him.
00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:57.360
It was just James Monroe or James Monroe.
00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:00.799
And this is the way you need to understand the candidates here.
00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:03.200
They're all basically from the same party.
00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:09.519
Uh John Quincy Adams, uh Andrew Jackson, Henry Clay, and another guy called William Crawford.
00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:15.360
So the difference is the regions that they represent, you know, the east, the south, the west, the north.
00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:17.679
That's really the main issue there.
00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:30.480
I would compare it more to the primary structures that we have in the US these days, when people are running for the you know, the democratic nomination to be the president, um, and the people that put themselves forward for that.
00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:33.759
It's sort of similar to that, but it's the general election.
00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:35.840
So that's the first thing to establish here.
00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:39.360
The second is yes, the electoral college is different.
00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:45.679
It's different because there are less states, uh fewer states in the union at this point.
00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:54.960
And any um potential presidential candidate needs a majority in the Electoral College, which is 131.
00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:56.159
This is the first issue.
00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:00.960
Jackson gets 99, so he gets the most, but he doesn't get a majority.
00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:03.519
And that's because there's four different guys running, right?
00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:14.000
So it's basically impossible for anyone to eke out that kind of majority in this system when literally they're all part of the same party and just representing different parts of the country.
00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:18.799
Uh, but as per the constitution, it was now the job at the House of Representatives, right?
00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:21.039
They pick the president from there.
00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:27.279
Um, so Henry Clay was not included in that because he came forth, so we don't consider him.
00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:34.639
So it comes down to these three um William Crawford, Andrew Jackson, and uh John Quincy Adams.
00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:36.879
And Crawford's, you know, he's never gonna get it.
00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:38.799
So it is just Adams and Jackson.
00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:44.879
Now, who happens to be the Speaker of the House of Representatives during this point?
00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:46.399
It's Henry Clay.
00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:53.120
And Henry Clay, as you mentioned, passionately hates Andrew Jackson.
00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:59.279
And lo and behold, the House of Representatives pick John Quincy Adams to be president.
00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:07.919
And then, as a random coincidence, Henry Clay becomes John Quincy Adams' Secretary of State.
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:19.200
So immediately after the election, there are these talks of a corrupt bargain between Clay and Adams to deny Jackson the presidency.
00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:21.519
And to be honest, there probably was.
00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:25.679
I mean, as I mentioned before, these people are terrified of Jackson becoming president.
00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:32.000
Give it to John Quincy Adams, safe pair of hands, former Secretary of State, you know, Sonna, the president.
00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:38.559
He can do this, but it taped Adams' presidency from the beginning because people see him illegitimate.
00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:50.240
And Jackson in particular starts to immediately think about 1828 and his campaign and pushing with greater vengeance this time to secure the presidency.
00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:53.840
I mean, he's got cause to be pissed off, hasn't he, though?
00:16:54.000 --> 00:17:00.720
Because this is it's that thing where you rant and rave about the the elites and they're conspiring.
00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:06.640
And it's like, but they are like like this is clearly what what's happening and whether that's right or wrong.
00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:10.400
I mean, that the fact is they are, and Jackson is is is the victim of that.
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:28.480
So you can understand, particularly for a guy who you know is always having to win and and has won so much in terms of battlefields for for this idea that he's been he's been cheated out of this job from his perspective by these guys, these elites who who know that who know the system and how to rig it.
00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:52.400
You can see how that just would dig into his brain and and impress upon him did this thing that despite his poor health, despite the fact that if he does become president, he's gonna have to go to Washington, he's gonna have to, you know, drag Rachel there, or or you know, leave a bind and and and have to go back and forth, he's he's determined to run again, which he does, as you say, in 1828, and this time he wins.
00:17:52.799 --> 00:18:01.279
And he wins in no small part because Adams signed a tariff act, tariffs, tariffs as that word, that gives Southerners a raw deal.
00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:10.240
Now, I I'm not gonna claim that I fully understand this tariff stuff, it's kind of boring, but basically, and who knew this?
00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:13.440
They push up the price of imports to America.
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:17.359
And this particularly hurts the South, which isn't as built up and rich as the North.
00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:21.519
And and basically it's it's that they're the people who are the first who are gonna be screwed in that.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:25.680
And the guilt for this is able to be to be hung around Adams's neck.
00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:37.440
You already said that he's he's kind of working off the premise that his presidency is seen as somewhat uh uh sketchy to begin with, uh, owing to how it came about.
00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:43.839
The tariffs are a big part of the reason why Jackson triumphed in 1828, uh becoming the seventh president of the United States.
00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:45.440
It's not all triumph, though.
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:47.519
And this I think is a really important point.
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:53.359
Just after the election, on the 22nd of December, 1828, Rachel dies of a heart attack.
00:18:53.519 --> 00:19:05.680
Um, and as mentioned in the previous episode, but it bears repeating, that for all that this man is this callous, violent husk of a creature, he does have genuine, if he loves anything, it's his wife Rachel.
00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:11.119
And he's he has defended her honor, you know, put his life on the line to defend it before.
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:13.119
He is very devoted to this woman.
00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:19.519
She drops dead unexpectedly at this moment where he is reaching the height of his powers.
00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:26.400
And so you've got to imagine for a guy who's already mentally a little bit askew, this is not gonna go down well.
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:30.079
And I think it's it probably explains a lot of what's to come.
00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:41.839
He goes to his inauguration anyway, in March of 1829, and here we get a classic Jackson story: the mob that swarms the White House.
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:45.440
Um, so so basically, again, populist politician.
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:46.559
The people love him.
00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:53.920
Turns up for this inauguration, it is supposed to be a civilized affair, the handing over of power, the peaceful handing over of power.
00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:59.519
But instead, so many people just want to reach out and and and be near this guy, touch this guy.
00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:02.240
We don't have layers of security like we have today.
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:17.200
It's a more open thing, and people basically demand to party with the president, and so you get a mob of folks sort of launching themselves at this event, overwhelming what passes for not even security, but officials there.
00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:32.640
And as the story goes, you've got you've got basically a mob of enthusiastic Jacksonites, probably alcohol-fueled, smashing furniture, servants are being pushed over, there's champagne and canopies going everywhere.
00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:45.519
I mean, it's an iconic story in Jackson's myth because it kind of sets the tone of, you know, this is this is what you get when you bring the outsider in, you know, the hoy piloy bring bring all their bad behavior to the to the sacred White House, etc.
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:52.000
But what's notable about this is that whilst this is happening, Jackson is not in the middle of this getting their plaudits.
00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:54.160
He's not, you know, oh, look at my adoring fans.
00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:56.319
The adventurous frat boy is dead.
00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:03.440
That adventurous frat boy died either in the in the in the wars that hardened him or after Rachel's demise.
00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:08.000
He is now just this hardened shell uh with nothing to lose.
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.279
He doesn't want the this moment of adulation.
00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:17.599
And so he basically withdraws from this and just lets these people do what they want to do, which I think is a really, a really important point.
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:23.519
You know, he's he's uh he's a sickly, mentally broken man at this time.
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:26.400
So, in other words, he's in a great state to become president.
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:27.839
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:37.039
I mean, I think this might be, even as I'm saying it, I think this is a rather glib and trite comparison, but I can't help but think back to your episode on Darth Vader.
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:54.240
I think we have had the same trajectory here because Jackson, we we talked about it briefly, but in the last episode, but the death of Jackson's mother really affects him because Jackson's mother dies looking after soldiers during the Revolutionary War and she catches cholera from there.
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:59.759
And for Jackson, this was um you know a scar that he couldn't really get over because he couldn't defend her.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.160
He wasn't there to defend her as well.
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:04.319
He lost his siblings as well.
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:17.039
And Rachel, as you've mentioned, is someone that he had been defending and you know, been so close with and was very protective over her and her honor and any perceived slights to her honor as well.
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:27.359
And so when she dies at the height of his powers, like Mad Voda, um, that that really does set the stage, I think, for his presidency.
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:29.519
There is a real husk to him.
00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:31.279
He is a lot more hardened.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:38.640
If there ever was any sort of, you know, emotional element to him, it does die with Rachel Jackson, I'd say.
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:43.920
And also, I think with his inauguration party, there is um something about a big wheel of cheese.
00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:45.519
I think that was part of the appeal.
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:49.680
Uh, big wheel of cheese set up in the White House foyer for people to go to.
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:53.119
Yeah, which was just, I mean, quite apart from anything else.
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:59.119
So, first of all, big wheel of cheese, obviously, everyone's gonna look at that and go, Well, the challenge is here to eat all the goddamn cheese, right?
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:00.319
So let's just descend on that.
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:00.880
Yeah.
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:05.839
And and the other problem with that is if the humans don't get it, the mice will.
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:06.480
Yeah.
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:08.400
It's yeah, ridiculous.
00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:10.799
Bad planning, very bad planning.
00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:11.759
Yeah.
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:21.599
And yeah, I think you know, it's it's a chaotic scene in the White House, but it represents a broader shift that's happened in the US in that more people can vote.
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:29.200
You know, in 1824 was actually the first election where all white people, or white men, sorry, could vote.
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:33.039
Um before that, you had to have a certain amount of property to be able to vote.
00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:38.640
But by that point, most of the states had uh, you know, eased off in their franchise laws.
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:40.160
So more people could vote.
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:44.160
And this helps us understand how someone like Jackson gets into power.
00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:51.519
And so these people who are in the White House will have voted for Jackson in a way they would not have been able to do before.
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:59.279
So this explains why they have this emotional connection to Jackson and his successes and wanting to be there as well.
00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:08.640
I think this forms a foundation for Jackson to give him a hell of a lot of leeway in his presidency because he has that legitimacy, that link to the people.
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:10.000
He's their guy.
00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:11.759
He's he's their guy in the wire.
00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:13.039
Yeah.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:19.200
So um the the party, the party's over, the cheese is either eaten or thrown out.
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:20.160
We're not entirely sure.
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:27.599
We can't confirm the status of the cheese, but the the the cheese is done, the party's done, the inauguration's over, it's time to get to work.
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:33.839
Uh the haunting nature of Rachel's ghost continues to to linger, though.
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:44.960
And it lingers in one of the big scandals that afflicts uh Jackson during his time in the White House, something called the petticoat affair, which began is quite early in his presidential term.
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:52.960
Basically, a member of Jackson's cabinet and their wives start snubbing at the wife of the Secretary of War, a fellow by the name of John Eaton.
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:57.680
And this is that thing where the wives of cabinet ministers are all meant to be friends and da da da.
00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:04.559
But no, uh Margaret Peggy Eaton, as she is known, she um is is snubbed by the other wives.
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:11.759
And that's because she married John Eaton, Jackson's Secretary for War, not long after her first husband died.
00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:14.799
And this was seen as reprehensible by polite society.
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:20.559
She was meant to mourn, she was meant to grieve, she was not meant to shack up with the next powerful guy who came along.
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:25.359
But that's how Margaret was perceived as basically this immoral gold digger.
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:30.160
Now, this whole thing for obvious reasons sets Jackson off.
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:36.160
You know, the you can see the nervous tick developing as this as this story is being relayed to him.
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:50.400
Uh, the fact that Calhoun, who he is not a fan of, was in the cabinet, and his wife was a ringleader of these so-called petticoat women who were snubbing Margaret, also engendered the uh a big falling out between between Jackson and Calhoun.
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:55.359
So he's having to manage this sort of White House soap opera nonsense quite early in his tenure.
00:25:55.519 --> 00:26:12.480
But the fact that it's it's it basically boils down to people judging another another uh uh someone's wife for her perceived immoralities, that triggers him, as we would say today, and sets him off on really wanting to take it out on take it out on people.
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:29.599
And one way in in which this perhaps manifests is that he clears out the the White House, he clears out the the remnants of the previous administration, drains the swamp, you might say, of about 10% of federal employees, puts loyalists into positions of power.
00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:33.839
Again, you know, the the resonances of history are ringing here.
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:37.039
But uh again, he's uh he's a populist, right?
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:38.960
And this is this is what what you do.
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:42.559
You don't you don't inherit what the previous people had.
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:46.240
You you do things your own way, that's kind of on brand.
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:51.039
Is he the first guy to do this, though, to have a sort of full-sale clear out of the White House?
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:52.319
Is this unique?
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:58.240
Well, I think when Jefferson came in and took over from Adams, that was a real sea change.
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:06.960
And ever since Jefferson, there's been a real stability in terms of the government because you know each president broadly agreed with what the previous president was doing.
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:21.680
Um, I think in every case, uh, maybe not James Monroe, I think he was governor at the time, but basically every president um since Jeff uh since Madison had served in the previous presidential administration in some way.
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.799
So they were quite close, so there was a lot of holdovers.
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:31.200
But this is why I think it's so significant of what we see with Jackson, it is a real clean brick.
00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:37.279
I would argue at this point, we are past the founding generation of the United States.
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:45.279
Jackson is the first post-founding president, he is someone who comes from nothing, who comes to the White House.
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:51.759
He doesn't really have that same experience with the American Revolution as all the previous presidents had at this point.
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:55.119
And I think Pettico speaks to this.
00:27:55.279 --> 00:28:04.240
He has no time for these almost 18th century Georgian values of uh, you know, appearance and genteelness.
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:05.920
He has no time for that.
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:09.599
He resents that because he would see that as something that would look down upon him.
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:14.079
You know, it's a way to catch him out, it's the way to make out he's some country bumpkin.
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:15.920
So the petticoat fair, I think you're right.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:17.839
It triggers him and it makes him clear it out.
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:31.359
And yes, this is the first time we're seeing this reshaping of a presidential administration, of the staff that they have, of a president essentially trying to create an administration purely in their own image.
00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:33.279
You're seeing that with Jackson.
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:38.799
It's not just war on those within the White House that he he doesn't like.
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:46.400
He also declares war on the central bank, which he regarded as a hotbed of elites, the money power, as he referred to it.
00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:53.920
He wants uh basically to put it in in simple terms, he wants to move money out of the federal bank and put it into state banks.
00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:57.359
He's he wants he wants to sort of decentralize that.
00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:03.519
And Adams's 1828 tariff deal is still in place when Jackson comes in as well.
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:09.599
So this is another another aspect in terms of the the economic policies.
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:17.200
South Carolina wants to get rid of tariffs, imports more needed in the south and north, which is mentioned, fox over the southerners.
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:23.920
Jackson interestingly opposes this and threatens to send the military in to enforce tariffs.
00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:27.920
Um I'm confused by this.
00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:30.079
Why does he want to keep tariffs in place?
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:36.480
He he's regarded as a you know southerner, a westerner, uh uh certainly not a northeasterner.
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:40.640
Uh why does he want to keep these tariffs in place?
00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:42.559
Isn't he meant to be for the people?
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:49.759
So, uh as we were talking about in the previous episode, he has all of these different parts of his personalities.
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:50.799
You just mentioned there.
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:55.200
He's a southerner, he's a westerner, he's a military man, he's a populist, but he's also a lawyer.
00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:56.319
He is a lawyer.
00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:02.079
He has a cogent legal vision of, say, the constitution and the powers of the presidency.
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:13.440
So Jackson doesn't agree with um Adams's uh um tariffs, you know, they're known as the abominable abominable tariff tariffs.
00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:15.519
Um many called them that at the time.
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:18.960
And you know, Jackson kind of rallies against that in the 1828 election.
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:31.440
But what Jackson disagrees with is um a state, South Carolina, nullifying the uh the laws of the central, the federal government.
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:34.640
Because what kind of precedent is that going to set, right?
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:42.160
If South Carolina can say, no, we're we're just not gonna do the tariff thing, this means that other states are going to be able to do this as well.
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:45.839
So it's the principle of the matter that's important to Jackson.
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:54.720
He is a southerner, he is a populist in many ways, but he is also someone that believes in the union of the United States.
00:30:54.880 --> 00:31:03.839
And so, in terms of um imparting and enacting that power, he in this situation it shows he's not really doing it with fortune or favor.
00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:11.039
He's applying a very cogent and consistent view of the powers of the federal government.
00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:17.039
Yes, Adams might have done this, and I disagree with this, and maybe we'll tweak the tariffs in a few years, but you can't just nullify them.
00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:18.799
You know, it's the nullification crisis.
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:22.640
And it opens up these fissures again that we have with the Pettico Affair.
00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:26.000
You see them reopen over the tariff crisis.
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:35.519
And one example of this is um during a dinner in 1830, which was organized to commemorate um Thomas Jefferson's birth.
00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:43.599
You have a group, loads of after dinner speakers, and President Jackson is one of them, but also Vice President Calhoun is one of them.
00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:52.400
And Jackson stands up and says, basically, our union, it must be preserved at all costs, in his justification, but he's tariffs.
00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:54.799
And Vice President Calhoun is incensed.
00:31:54.880 --> 00:32:00.000
He's like, he's angry at this because he is a proper sovereign man as well.
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:14.480
Um and he says, the union next to our liberty, the most dear, may we all remember that it can only be preserved by respecting the right to the states and distributing equally the benefits and the burden of the union.
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:16.640
So think about this meal that's going on.
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:22.880
You have the president saying one thing, if the vice president saying another thing, open division over tariffs.
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:24.799
You could not imagine J.D.
00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:33.759
Wats doing something like that, even though he probably should, and his political background shows that he's very different from what Trump wants or as Trump Trump is doing.
00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:42.720
But you're seeing these open fissures break, uh open up between the president and the vice president and the president and his cabinet more broadly.
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:45.599
You know, he sticks to his guns on this tariff principle.
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:53.680
This is where I don't really understand the thing with the banks, though, because he if he's if he's all about you know that states can't just do what they want willy-nilly.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:33:02.640
Why does he want to send why does he want to decentralize the money and and give the states, I guess, more power by having them have more money at state level?
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:06.000
Yeah, I would argue that this is consistent.
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:09.119
Um, with the tariffs, that comes from the president.
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:10.319
That's the president's right.
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:15.680
The president can do that, the president can enact tariffs, that is enshrined within the constitution.
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:23.119
What Jackson and a lot of um previous figures like Thomas Jefferson didn't like about the idea of the central bank.
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:31.359
So when you have debates around the first bank, is that you're creating another independent power structure that is controlled by other elites.
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:40.640
So it's not answerable to the federal government in the same way that say Congress or the judiciary or the executive are as well.
00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:44.880
Jefferson makes a similar argument, but Jackson really pushes this.
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:50.160
He sees this as an illegitimate power that goes beyond the confines of the Constitution.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:54.880
Also, Jackson was someone who had been hard on his luck many times in his early life.
00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:00.000
He hated the idea of credit and paper money, which this second bank would have brought in.
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:06.079
He believed more in hard money and that states should have the rights to administer the money.
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:11.599
And, you know, that means that they can keep that level of sovereignty that the constitution allows for.
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:13.599
So I think there is consistency here.
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:18.400
It's about who is enacting the power and what does the constitution say about it.
00:34:18.559 --> 00:34:21.840
It all works within Jackson's interpretation of the constitution.
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:22.320
Yeah.
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:26.159
He's a he's a keep your pennies in in a jar under your bed kind of guy.
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:30.480
He's he's yeah, I I this this tracks now, this makes sense.
00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:40.239
The um the abominable tariffs and that that whole thing is is basically it's it's resolved this idea of of you know Jackson wanting a military intervention, whatever.
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:47.840
That is uh resolved peacefully by Clay and Calhoun, who uh come up with a bill to basically cut the excesses of the tariffs.
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:48.880
This passes Congress.
00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:54.239
Jackson is pissed off because he doesn't, he doesn't, it basically it's solved without him.
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:57.760
And after this, Calhoun either steps aside or is fired.
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:00.159
Not sure which it is, but it doesn't really matter.
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:02.320
The point is he's a casualty of this.
00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:06.000
But Jackson's rage is not quelled by Calhoun's dismissal.
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:08.880
In fact, he's so angry with how his presidency is going.
00:35:09.039 --> 00:35:23.840
He's so angry with all these little fights that are starting and that the things he wants to do, which which stuff is getting in the way, all these challenges to his authority, that he decides to go and do what some scholars have referred to as a genocide.
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:28.320
Others would at least call it a genocidal policy.
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:30.480
This can be debated.
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:32.719
Whatever it is, it's really fucking terrible.
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:34.880
And it's called the Trail of Tears.
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:38.880
The forced removal of Native American tribes off their land and to the west.
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:42.800
They are moved through Tennessee, Missouri, Alabama.
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:48.159
The trail pretty much ends mostly in Oklahoma, um I th for the most part.
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:58.159
Anywhere between 12 to 20,000, I think is the top uh estimate of people who perish just on the journey itself.
00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:03.280
But more than that, you know, entire communities, nations of people are displaced.
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:08.719
How central is Jackson to the implementation of this policy?
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:10.719
Would this have happened without him?
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:13.280
What's he trying to achieve here?
00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:18.800
Yeah, I would say uh Jackson is absolutely central to this.
00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:25.119
Because beforehand, the United States had been signing treaties with native nations.
00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:27.920
Um, the goal was to get their land.
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:35.920
They wanted that, but there was a squeamishness about just taking the land away, particularly from the federal government.
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:43.599
State governments and settlers didn't really care, and especially those out west or those in the south who just wanted more land.
00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:45.519
They just wanted to see action.
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:49.679
You know, how can we remove Indigenous peoples from our land and take it?
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:53.039
And there were issues, there were conflicts, right?
00:36:53.199 --> 00:37:02.480
In the 1820s, when John Quincy Adams was president, he pushes back against the Georgia uh Georgia that when they're trying to take land away from the Cherokee.
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:04.480
Adams says, No, you can't do that.
00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:08.239
You we're gonna have to fall on the side of the Cherokee in this situation.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:17.519
So there are cases where presidents had, you know, tried to be even-handed as they can be in these situations, but Jackson completely dismisses that.
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:27.440
I mentioned this last episode in that Jackson viewed all Native nations as not nations but dependencies as wards of the United States.
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:32.239
Therefore, the United States has the right to do whatever they want with native nations.
00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:45.119
And he comes into office and opens this debate and makes clear that he wants an Indian removal bill to be pushed through to Congress so they can start displacing all of these native nations.
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:52.000
And the main ones are uh those in the south, the Seminole, the Creek, the Choctaw, the Chickasaw.
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:56.159
Um, I am forgetting one right now, it'll come back to me.
00:37:56.320 --> 00:38:03.599
Uh, but Jackson is central in wanting to remove those, and a lot of congressmen are opposed to it.
00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:05.280
You know, this isn't unanimous.
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:08.159
People do think there are problems with it.
00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:16.320
Uh, there's the Congressman Henry Stores of New York, and he argued it would ruin the standing of the US in the world.
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:25.679
Uh, speaking, speaking of the bill, he says it will do more to destroy the confidence of the world in free government than all their armies would um accomplish.
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:30.239
Basically saying that what example are we setting if we do this?
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:35.599
We were meant to be this enlightened republic and we're just displacing indigenous peoples completely.
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:50.639
Umtiersmen like Davy Crockett, you know, a pioneer legend from Tennessee like Andrew Jackson, who would go on to die at the Alamo, he called the bill a wicked, unjust measure.
00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:53.920
So this was uniquely Jackson.
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:57.039
This was an Andrew Jackson thing that he was pushing.
00:38:57.199 --> 00:38:59.519
Um and it squeaks through Congress.
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:02.559
It's not an overwhelming landslide for it.
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:08.480
I think it passes the House of Representatives with 101 votes to 97 against.
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:13.760
So a few votes either side, this could have been a very different history we're talking about.
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:21.840
And Jackson basically fulfilled the wishes of southern states, which had long wanted to forcibly expel these people.
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:26.880
Now, of course, I think here it's important to underline that there's resistance to this.
00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:31.360
The you know, native nations don't just go off into long night.
00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:34.239
You have Jackson's old rivals, the Seminoles.
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:41.360
They resist through arms, and this leads to the Second Seminole War of 1835, drags on for seven years.
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:45.760
It's the most costly Indian war that the United States is involved with.
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:51.119
And one of the leaders of the Second Seminole War is a young man named Osceola.
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:58.159
And Osceola had been at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend, which I quoted from in the previous, um, in the previous episode.
00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:08.000
He was a child at the time and he fled to Florida, and he became one of the proponents uh of the Seminole to say, we cannot leave, we will not remove from this land.
00:40:08.239 --> 00:40:10.639
You have the Cherokee who take a different tact.
00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:14.400
Um, they try to resist through the courts, essentially.
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:17.199
They take their cases to the Supreme Court twice.
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:25.760
First time the Supreme Court pushes it back, but on the second time, they do actually rule in favor of the Cherokee and say, Yeah, actually, your land cannot be taken.
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:38.400
You've signed some treaties beforehand, and the Cherokee had a written constitution at this point, so they were making very clear that we are a sovereign nation in a Western European fashion.
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:40.239
But Jackson doesn't care.
00:40:41.119 --> 00:40:44.639
Because it ultimately is it is it his say, irrespective of what the court says?
00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:46.400
He's like, well, I don't care what the court points.
00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:49.199
Well, Jackson just says I won't enforce it.
00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:53.360
That's a very nice ruling you have there, Supreme Court, but I will not enforce that.
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:58.559
That is essentially what Jackson does because he is determined to push this policy through.
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:07.199
Now, again, I think legalistically, Jackson would justify this through Congress has voted for this, and you know, the Supreme Court can't push back on that.
00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:12.480
But it is telling that Jackson has no time for the Supreme Court ruling.
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:26.800
And so the Cherokees, the Chicksaw, the Creeks, and the Choctaw in particular, and the Seminoles as well, when they're removed from Florida, they suffer an intolerable pressure and discrimination to remove from their lands.
00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:34.559
And this is how it's enacted essentially, because settlers are given carte blanche to go wherever they want, you can start taking the Indian lands.
00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:38.880
So, sure, you can remain as an Indian community if you want, but it's going to be horrible.
00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:45.519
You know, people are going to start dying, you're not going to have opportunities, the state will no longer protect you, or you can remove.
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:52.800
And the issue is that uh, you know, the the federal government is providing limited funds for them to remove.
00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:57.360
And in the case of the Cherokee, they remember this as the Trail of Tear Tears.
00:41:57.440 --> 00:42:03.840
It was an 800-mile journey where around 4,000 of them die of exposure on the way.
00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:08.159
And so the federal government did little to really facilitate this.
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:17.199
But it was Jackson's perseverance to get this through Congress that leads to the Trail of Tears, which is certainly a genocidal policy.
00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:18.000
Yeah.
00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:26.960
And what's I guess sad and fascinating in equal measure about this is that in 1832 he's up for re-election.
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:32.320
It's not just the Trail of Tears, it's all this other stuff.
00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:34.480
Like, this has been a chaotic reign.
00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:35.920
This is there's been problems.
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:37.440
It's not been smooth sailing.
00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:38.639
He's up for re-election.
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:43.920
He's challenged by his old nemesis, Henry Clay, and he he solidly defeat defeats him.
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:47.440
Like it's not Jackson, Jackson wins.
00:42:48.239 --> 00:43:04.639
I guess the question is like, how how is he still so so popular at this time, having created even for people who who would look at something like the Removal Act and say, well, I don't really care much about the native populations, fine, whatever.
00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:11.519
All this other shit, you know, this this guy, this guy is not bringing stability and prosperity, it seems to me.
00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:14.239
It seems like he's bringing fresh dramas every other day.
00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:16.239
Why is he still so popular?
00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:18.400
Because he's doing stuff.
00:43:18.559 --> 00:43:24.800
You know, he is using the presidency and he is enacting his policy agenda.
00:43:25.039 --> 00:43:30.239
Think back to him clearing out the federal government around the time of the Pettico affair.
00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:34.639
This stuff that can do in the 1830s has cut through.
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:38.559
There is a sense of, I might not agree with everything, but at least I know where he stands.
00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:39.920
At least I know what he's doing.
00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:42.960
At least I have a sense of where Jackson is on the issues.
00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:50.719
And everything he does, from the banks to uh tariffs to Indian removal, it's all contentious.
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:59.280
But there is a constituency that Jackson is cultivating that will go with him no matter what, particularly in the South, right?
00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:03.280
Um Indian removal is great for white southerners.
00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:05.280
They have more land they can expand into.
00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:07.119
Slavery can be expanded into.
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:14.320
This had been the fawn in their side since you know before the American Revolution, having these indigenous peoples here.
00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:16.880
Now Andrew Jackson has helped solve that.
00:44:17.119 --> 00:44:24.320
So he's pop he's popular, he's working for the white settler constituency that he represents.
00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:31.519
And also it is because of how Jackson is modernizing American politics as well.
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:36.239
So I mentioned with the 1824 election, it's kind of weird they're all in the same party.
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:43.119
But this is when we see the Democratic Party, the actual Democratic Party that we know of today, come into being.
00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:47.920
Jackson, with the help of Martin Van Buren, founds the Democratic Party.
00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:50.400
It becomes its own cohesive force.
00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:55.199
And they start to do things in a way that we would recognize with modern politics.
00:44:55.360 --> 00:45:03.599
So they have a nominating convention for the president and vice president, not just president and then we'll figure out whose vice president once the votes are in.
00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:06.559
Now people are running on these tickets.
00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:11.519
And so there is popular support for this idea of a Democratic Party.
00:45:11.679 --> 00:45:16.719
Now people are running as like senators and congressmen for the Democratic Party as well.
00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:21.039
And these conventions are meant to invite people into the popular process.
00:45:21.199 --> 00:45:23.360
You can nominate who you want to be president.
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:25.519
It's not just a bunch of elites anymore.
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:26.480
You have a say.
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:30.079
If you're at the Democratic Convention, you have a say who's the president.
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:32.079
You have a say who's the vice president.
00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:37.360
And so Jackson and Martin Van Buren, Van Buren becomes the vice presidential nominee.
00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:40.800
They understand this new politics.
00:45:41.199 --> 00:45:45.360
Henry Clay, who is very much a dinosaur at this point, he has no idea.
00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:46.880
He doesn't see this as important.
00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:53.280
He still thinks he's fighting the 1824 election, where it's a few good blokes, you know, shaking hands and deciding who's the president.
00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:56.880
This is different kind of campaigning that Jackson understands.
00:45:56.960 --> 00:46:10.880
So it's, I think running through both of those main points about Jackson's contentiousness, but he's developing a constituency and the modernization of politics, running through that is Jackson is broadening his appeal.
00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:17.360
He is talking about his legitimacy to the people, that direct connection he has with the people.
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:18.639
So that's why he whips.
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:22.320
And at this point, we're we're drowning in contemporary resonance.
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:24.960
You know, a lot of this stuff is sounding very familiar.
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:27.920
The let's just vote for them because they do stuff.
00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:28.960
That's great.
00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:35.440
But but what's interesting, the thing that's different is Jackson is a populist who's actually getting popular.
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:41.760
Most populists today are aren't that popular once they're in office because everyone realizes that they can't actually do anything.
00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:44.000
And if they do, they do it disastrously.
00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:47.119
And the base, the base shrinks rather than grows.
00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:58.079
Whereas here, as you say, he's he's actually cultivating uh a following and growing it to the detriment of folks like Clay who are just being left behind by by the speed of events.
00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:05.519
So he he does maintain a popularity, does perhaps even grow it in some areas, but he is not popular with everyone.
00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:13.119
When he signed an executive order to curtail the powers of the bank, his treasury secretary refused and was fired.
00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:15.599
He then appointed another one to do it.
00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:17.679
He refused and was fired.
00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:22.239
So he's having trouble getting some people on board with this stuff.
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:27.119
And it's not just people within the House who are causing him bother.
00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:30.960
In 1835, Andrew Jackson becomes the first U.S.
00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:33.760
president to have an attempt made on his life.
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:35.840
It's the 30th of January.
00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:38.960
He's coming back from a funeral in Washington, D.C.
00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:55.599
He's on his way back to the White House from the Capitol building when a mentally unbalanced and ostentatiously dressed, unemployed house painter named Richard Lawrence leaps out in front of Jackson with two pistols, pulls the trigger on both, neither of them fire properly, probably because of damp.
00:47:55.920 --> 00:48:00.719
You know, it's DC in January, it's cold, it's wet, the powder in the pistols isn't dry enough to ignite.
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:03.119
Lawrence is obviously panicked at this point.
00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:12.960
He stood there with two misfiring guns facing off against the most violent man to have served as president, whom Lawrence has just pissed off by trying to kill unsuccessfully.
00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:16.800
What happens next was very predictable.
00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:36.079
Jackson, gaunt, thin, you know, bulging, sickly, deep-set eyes, mad explosion of white hair standing up on his head, turns on Lawrence, raises his cane, and launches into a world-class beatdown on the first person to try and kill a sitting US president.
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:41.519
In the end, bystanders have to pull Jackson off Lawrence before he clubs him to death.
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:44.639
This is probably my favorite Jackson story.
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:48.159
And if it ain't the spirit of America, then I don't know what is.
00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:50.559
Yeah, exactly.
00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:56.960
And also we mentioned this in the previous episode, just these anecdotes of Jackson.
00:48:57.199 --> 00:49:05.760
And I think, particularly in the 19th century, some of these books are just glorified string of anecdotes.
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:13.679
You could create anecdotal stories of Jackson from his birth through to his presidency and beyond.
00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:15.920
And this is part of cultivating the image.
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:22.239
You know, there are engravings of Jackson and how he manages the best his would-be assassin.
00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:24.320
This develops that popular support.
00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:30.800
So even if, you know, we might get onto this, the panic of 1837 happens and, you know, the money all dries up.
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:32.480
Jackson's kind of a cool guy.
00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:36.159
He's going out there and he's battering this would-be assassin to death.
00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:40.800
And, you know, he's doing all of this proactive stuff, right?
00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:47.360
It just is meant to uh represent this essential part of his character.
00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:54.559
He's doing stuff, he's he's got principles, he's got lines in the sand, and he will defend them to the death, essentially.
00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:58.400
He's doing stuff, including beating people who try to kill him.
00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:00.000
You mentioned 1837.
00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:00.880
Let's talk about that.
00:50:01.039 --> 00:50:07.599
So Jackson's aforementioned policy of transferring money away from the federal bank to the states leads to a lot of corruption at state level.
00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:08.400
Who knew?
00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:12.559
Uh, and the handing out of loans that couldn't be paid back for land speculation.
00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:17.360
In 1837, there's a financial crisis that is partly caused by this land speculation.
00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:25.280
But because Jackson, and this is the fun bit, because Jackson has gutted the federal bank and stripped it of its powers to regulate lending, there's no means of stopping this crisis.
00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:30.559
And this fuels a panic that led to I think 40% of banks and businesses going bust.
00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:34.800
So by the end of the 1830s, Jackson has tanked the U.S.
00:50:34.880 --> 00:50:35.360
economy.
00:50:35.440 --> 00:50:40.800
And he's also done this with a lot of unwelcome saber rattling because he he can't resist.
00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:49.599
He threatens war with France in 1834 after they refuse to pay compensation for a tax on American shipping during the Napoleonic Wars.
00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:51.360
It's 18 fucking thirty-four.
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:53.920
Napoleon's in the ground for Christ's sake.
00:50:54.079 --> 00:50:57.199
And, you know, here he is, you know, you owe us money.
00:50:57.519 --> 00:50:58.639
God damn.
00:50:59.039 --> 00:51:07.679
He also backs the rebels who are rising up against Mexico during the Texas Rebellion of 1835, 36 because they want to claim Mexico for the US.
00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:22.159
It's it's interesting how in this period from the sort of mid-30s to the late 30s, foreign policy, military matters, the economy, all this stuff that you'd think he's gonna be, you know, strong on, you know, he's a doer, he's a man of vision, he's bold, all this.
00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:24.000
He is cocking up left and right.
00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:27.119
And he's he's creating a rod for his own back in many respects.
00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:30.559
And you wonder, you know, is this the ultimate fate of the populist?
00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:44.000
You get into power promising it will all be sunshine and rainbows, when you actually have to govern, you have to do boring things like manage the economy, maintain sensible foreign relations, keep your cabinet in check.
00:51:44.159 --> 00:51:49.360
When faced with that, the populist it runs out of their hands, then they're unable to grasp it.
00:51:49.599 --> 00:51:51.280
You know, I I have to do work.
00:51:51.519 --> 00:51:54.320
I have to actually I have to actually do this in a measured way.
00:51:54.480 --> 00:52:02.880
You've mentioned several times, you know, for all of his foibles and wildness, Jackson is a has a legalistic mind, there's a legal rationale for everything.
00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:09.599
But I get the sense that as we get into the latter half of the 1830s, he is facing a reality he can't really handle.
00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:21.920
And I wonder if, particularly with the stuff with France and Mexico, if this is him reverting to his happy place, you know, let's just let's just do war, let's just fight someone.
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:23.519
I know how to do that.
00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:29.760
I think there's a case to be made that he's mentally deteriorating at this point, right?
00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:42.800
And I think he's been so burned through the presidency from the death of Rachel right at the start to it, to cabinet members not doing what he wants, um, to you know, attempts on his life.
00:52:43.039 --> 00:52:46.400
I think he is developing a bit of a bunker mentality.
00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:51.199
He doesn't really trust many people beyond, say, Martin Van Buren, maybe.
00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:53.679
Um, so he's becoming a lot more cagey.
00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:57.679
Yeah, it's a bit like Nixon in the past in the last few years.
00:52:57.920 --> 00:53:02.800
You know, I'm the guy who knows how to succeed, everyone's trying to hold me back in some way.
00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:06.719
He probably would have taped to the White House if he could have at this time, right?
00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:20.400
Um but also these issues you're mentioning uh about his big populist policies and the issues he's facing, it's partly his all these chickens coming home to roost, you know, it's the reaping versus sowing thing, right?
00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:24.239
So the panic of 1837, it's about the bank, right?
00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:29.440
If there was a big, strong bank, maybe people could have uh people's livelihoods would have been helped.
00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:31.599
But it's also to do with Indian removal as well.
00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:33.760
I mean, what land do you think they're speculating?
00:53:33.920 --> 00:53:37.920
It's all of this land that's opened up because of indigenous communities being removed.
00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:43.199
So opened up very quickly as well, like in a rapid way that can't be managed, yeah.
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:45.280
Very quickly opened up.
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:55.599
Land speculators mop it all up and they're giving it to people on credit, and all of this just starts to fall down because Jackson didn't really think much beyond let's get the land.
00:53:55.679 --> 00:53:57.039
What are we gonna do with the land?
00:53:57.119 --> 00:53:59.119
How are we gonna go to administer the land?
00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:00.400
Who's getting the land?
00:54:00.559 --> 00:54:02.239
You know, when will people move into it?
00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:07.280
Jackson's not really thinking about that because he has this ideology he wants to push forward.
00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:08.159
We need this.
00:54:08.320 --> 00:54:13.840
And so by the middle, late 1830s, and remember now a war has started in Florida.
00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:25.599
Another big Indian war has started down there, and he's also trying to save a rattle with France and Britain as well, because they are terrified that Britain's going to take Texas as well.
00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:28.079
So I think this helps us explain it.
00:54:28.239 --> 00:54:37.280
Um, these policies that were the benchmarks of his first term are starting to rot, essentially, in the second term.
00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:41.360
But also it speaks to his enduring popularity.
00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:54.320
People like that he's calling out the French, people like that he's supporting the Texan uh revolutionaries against the Spanish, people like that he's you know beating around the British again, at least verbally.
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:59.360
And this will presage a lot of the issues of expansion that happened in the 1840s.
00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:03.280
You know, Jackson helps lay the groundwork for that.
00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:05.760
That, yeah, these Europeans need to stay away.
00:55:05.840 --> 00:55:07.519
I remember the Monroe doctrine.
00:55:07.679 --> 00:55:12.559
You know, we need to Jackson, if anything, is someone who reinvigorates that spirit.
00:55:12.719 --> 00:55:14.400
So it's kind of cagey.
00:55:14.480 --> 00:55:16.800
I don't think Jackson is in a good mental place.
00:55:16.880 --> 00:55:21.679
But then again, when has he ever been in a good mental place over the course of these two episodes?
00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:26.800
But I think it still has a enduring resonance with people.
00:55:27.039 --> 00:55:36.719
And even after Jackson leaves the White House, I think it has an enduring legacy on how people approach politics and the politics of expansion as well.
00:55:37.039 --> 00:55:37.679
Yeah.
00:55:38.079 --> 00:55:41.599
So he does leave the White House eventually.
00:55:41.679 --> 00:55:44.719
Uh March 1837 returns to Nashville.
00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:49.360
In retirement, he continues to campaign for the US to annex Mexico.
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:53.280
Bill was passed to this effect on the first of March 1845.
00:55:53.519 --> 00:55:58.239
This was the last victory of Andrew Jackson's life because he died of chronic ill health.
00:55:58.400 --> 00:55:59.920
Finally, or everything came out.
00:56:01.119 --> 00:56:01.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:01.679 --> 00:56:02.480
Who knew?
00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:06.719
Um, three months after that that bill was passed at the age of 78.
00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:13.840
Pretty damn good innings for a guy in this time period who put himself through what he put himself through mentally, physically, everything else.
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:16.320
He kept his blood thin with rage.
00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:19.679
And so we come to uh just a few points on legacy.
00:56:19.840 --> 00:56:26.719
This is this is this is the a big orange specter has lurked over these two episodes that we will now address.
00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:33.039
Part of the reason why Jackson has come back into the conversation in the last few years is because of the Trump comparisons.
00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:39.280
Um, because of people looking at the the first American populace, they're looking at the the one now, and they're saying, you know what?
00:56:39.519 --> 00:56:41.519
We are we redoing Andrew Jackson?
00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:55.119
There are, I think, many similarities, and we've we've touched on them, but they're all there are, I think, some very, very important differences in terms of background and in terms of values.
00:56:55.360 --> 00:57:00.159
This is a guy who was a genuine warrior.
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:07.360
He was a soldier, he was a fighter, he wasn't cosplaying one, which is what Donald Trump is doing.
00:57:07.599 --> 00:57:15.119
He's not someone who, as you've mentioned a few times, is not just blindly blunderfucking his way into stuff.
00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:23.280
He does have moments of that, but he also has, in a lot of cases, a solid legal underpinning, an understanding of the laws.
00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:28.880
And even if he's doing something a bit sus, he knows how to sort of bend what he's doing to it.
00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:33.039
He doesn't have that sort of devil may care Trump brazenness.
00:57:33.199 --> 00:57:35.440
I think he's a far more calculating figure.
00:57:35.679 --> 00:57:45.920
And the final thing that I think is quite important is for all of his issues, and he's got a lot, Andrew Jackson really did care about the United States.
00:57:46.239 --> 00:57:51.039
He cared about its mission in the world, whether you agree with that mission or not.
00:57:51.199 --> 00:57:53.920
He he saw it, he cared about it, he wanted to further it.
00:57:54.079 --> 00:57:55.360
And Donald Trump does not.
00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:57.360
Like objectively, he does not.
00:57:57.519 --> 00:57:59.760
It's it is about Trump and Trump alone.
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:05.519
So I think those, I think these comparisons are they're interesting and there's something there.
00:58:05.679 --> 00:58:12.800
But if you actually peel back and look at not so much the image, but the men themselves, I see two very different people.
00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:13.840
Yes.
00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:28.239
I mean, these comparisons started coming out in 2015 when Trump started running, and you'd see these terrible photoshops of Andrew Jackson wearing a MAGA hat and all of these, you know, pointy-headed think pieces going on in the Atlantic or whatever.
00:58:28.400 --> 00:58:31.840
Like, hmm, is there some sort of connection going on here?
00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:44.320
When I mean, broadly, yes, populist and common man or whatnot, but Trump, I think it's safe to say, is far more of a chancer and a grifter than someone like Andrew Jackson.
00:58:44.559 --> 00:58:50.159
Andrew Jackson has a cogent set of beliefs and logic underpinning him.
00:58:50.320 --> 00:58:58.800
You might completely disagree with it, but for Jackson, there is a consistency in what he is doing and where he comes from as well.
00:58:58.960 --> 00:59:05.039
As you mentioned, he comes from abject poverty and manages to come through those ramps.
00:59:05.199 --> 00:59:13.840
And this is what creates that very strong sense of self and where his morals come from and how he views the world and how he views the United States.
00:59:14.079 --> 00:59:29.679
And certainly you're right to say that he believes in the US, he believes he's doing the best for the people of the US, but we need to caveate caveat that white men, you know, that is his constituency, that is what he believes is the US at this point.
00:59:30.159 --> 00:59:44.000
Enslaved people, uh, Native Americans, they must all move out of the way, uh, whether through uh reason or force, because it is the white man's republic, and that needs to be defended at all costs.
00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:49.679
So certainly not for all Americans, but again, there's a logical underpinning to all of that as well.
00:59:49.840 --> 00:59:58.480
So I think these comparisons with Trump are completely overblown and very reductive of where Andrew Jackson fits.
00:59:58.639 --> 01:00:08.000
Andrew Jackson, as I hope is clear from these past two episodes, is not someone I like, but he does a lot for the United States.
01:00:08.239 --> 01:00:09.440
A lot of it bad.
01:00:09.679 --> 01:00:12.639
Some of it maybe good, but most of it bad.
01:00:12.800 --> 01:00:19.679
Um, and we need to understand that on its own terms, rather than saying, well, this orange man is quite similar, I think.
01:00:19.760 --> 01:00:21.039
So maybe they're the same.
01:00:21.199 --> 01:00:21.840
It's not true.
01:00:21.920 --> 01:00:23.679
They are different sorts of bad.
01:00:24.079 --> 01:00:24.320
Yeah.
01:00:24.559 --> 01:00:34.239
Yeah, we're we're cursed to live in the era of crass-sweeping historical comparisons because you know, when when there's a lot of shit happening, you look back and you go, well, a lot of shit happened in the past as well.
01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:35.840
We can we can see resonances there.
01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:39.440
And there are always resonances, and certainly we've got some with Jackson.
01:00:39.519 --> 01:00:40.480
But yeah, you're right.
01:00:40.719 --> 01:00:45.199
He is a fascinating figure, fascinating and flawed figure in his own context.
01:00:45.360 --> 01:00:53.840
We don't need these contemporary comparisons to really understand or or or appreciate or or or be bewildered by Andrew Jackson.
01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:58.960
He is a force of nature that was recognized as such within his own time.
01:00:59.199 --> 01:01:06.239
And uh that's about as positive a spin as I can put on the man to to uh finish this one off.
01:01:06.400 --> 01:01:10.480
Thank you so much, Ed, for helping uh guiding me through this.
01:01:10.639 --> 01:01:13.119
There's a lot there, there's a lot to chew on.
01:01:13.280 --> 01:01:14.880
Uh, this has been a blast.
01:01:15.039 --> 01:01:17.840
And um thank you, dear listener.
01:01:18.079 --> 01:01:23.280
Remember to like, to subscribe, to comment, to do all that kind of stuff.
01:01:23.440 --> 01:01:25.039
Share this around.
01:01:25.199 --> 01:01:40.880
And if you are interested in the current president of the United States, do check out our episodes on Donald Trump and his connections to the world of professional wrestling, which I'm sure if the WWE existed in Jackson's time, he probably would have had something to do with that too.
01:01:41.360 --> 01:01:42.239
Be terrifying.
01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:43.519
Absolutely terrifying.
01:01:43.840 --> 01:01:46.480
And on that note, thank you for listening to History's Devils.
01:01:46.559 --> 01:01:48.079
We'll see you next time.