#22 - Richard Friedman. Unveiling Chaco Canyon. 3D Mapping Ancient Wonders

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Hello, Hello, I got distracted trying to set my background
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and everything, so.
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I was going to say, with a guy like you,
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I'm not sure if that's your living room or if
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it's a before Rich, this is Walter Walter, this is right, Rich.
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Nice mete. Sir Walter took.
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The time to listen to our interview, so he has
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a background about what you do and a good yeah,
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and you know because you've been on the podcast before, Rich, Well,
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we'll just keep this more like a hangout. Right, there's
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not going to be a formal and iulse certainly be
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driving the direction and asking you to present graphics. And
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if that takes you a minute or two to find
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the right folder or the right graphic, don't panic at
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all because, as you know, I can chop that out
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in the edit or what Walter and I can start yacking,
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and sometimes lovely stuff comes up when one person's away
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looking for something. Now, can you see us Rich or not?
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And I still have to go back to the PowerPoint windows.
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But you don't need to see us. Walter and I
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are two very good looking guys. We've established that. Let's
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just get on with the presentation. And if you could
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explain to us what it is we're looking at their Rich.
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Okay, so this is the four Corners area in New
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Mexico here, Colorado, Utah and Arizona and Flagstaff, Arizona, Albuquerque
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and Durango, and all the yellow dots are what I've
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got for chocolate and greathouses.
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These are all circular architectural structures. How many are we
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looking at there? There must be two hundred, is there?
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I think I've got about two fifty on here. And
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then I just brought up where the Chaco Canyon National
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Historical Park is Mesa Verde and Canyon Duche.
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For the sake of context for Walter and for everybody
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listening to. A great house that Rich just talked about
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was a large circular ash larcut stone built dwelling temple crossover.
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Do you think that's about right, Rich, A dwelling temple crossover.
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Yeah, yeah, I think temple probably is a pretty pretty
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good way to look at them. I mean that there
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were there's indications that people were living in portions of them,
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but not the entire structure. So yeah, yeah, there's there's
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still a lot of people that that look at them
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at them as just you know, large apartment complexes, which
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they're pretty overbuilt for that, but that's still what people do,
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and and people who think they're a little of both,
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and then people who think they're just uh, some sort
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of ritual sacred type structure.
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Call them what you want, but they are where the
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gods lived for those people.
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Yeah, yeah, I think that. Yeah, that that puts it
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extremely well.
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Okay, so let's get into these buildings or this landscape ridge.
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So the red lines here they show the roads that
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I've identified so far. Some have been ground truths, some
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are primarily from light are, but due to their form,
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it's pretty obvious that their roads their form and what
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they articulate with. So that I've got probably now around
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two hundred and seventy miles of roads mapped. And the
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purple are roads that in the nineteen eighties when the
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BLM did a study on the roads. Those are roads
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that were identified by that survey that I haven't been
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able to find in the light are yet. But there
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are roads that don't show up in the light are
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because they're just kind of traces across the landscape. So
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that's what we could be looking at as roads that
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are primarily traces across the landscape that can be found
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through either clearing of the surface without any real modification
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as far as depth, or clearing of the brush and
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maybe sure or lithic scatter along that road that can
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identify that is some sort of cultural linear feature.
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Are these roads that you've identified unmapped? You said about
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two hundred and eighty miles. Are they raised roads?
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There are a few at raised, but almost all are excavated. Well,
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we've got some instances of roads that are about a
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meter wide in other instances where they are twenty to
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twenty five meters wide, So they vary in with quite
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a bit. It seems like, you know, the narrow roads
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don't necessarily carry the importance of the larger roads, and
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they may be more of a trail or some specific
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ritual related item that wasn't meant to be big. But
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in general there are ten plus meters wide, except for
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those unusual ones that are smaller than that.
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Can I just challenge you quickly on that rate? Yep,
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for a challenge this earlier in our check of course. Okay,
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So would it be right to identify the bigger road
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is more sacred than the smaller path of a meter white?
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Possibly not yeah, I mean that the smaller path may
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have a more limited function and could could indicate greater importance.
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It's in Newcomb. Harvey had real good context for the
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smaller paths, and they actually intersected with the larger path.
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They were not parallel, but close and intersected with the
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larger road. So yeah, I'm not sure what some of
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those small things you're doing. And because they're small, there
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haven't been a lot identified. I think it's hard to
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once you get to thescale, it's hard to say if
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that's a chocolate road or just something else that happened
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later in time.
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Walter knows where I'm going with this because he's been
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here on three occasions and mapped the Camino Real, which
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is the royal road that goes over the top of
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the mountain that was the reserve of busy by the Ruler.
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But there's a huge salt Assault route that goes parallel
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to it, which is the main trade road that was
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fifteen meters wide and twenty miles long. But it's the
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Camino Reale. That path, the one meter wide path that
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is the hub and heart of the pilgrimage routes in Columbia.
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So those one meter paths. As you said, they might
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have been restricted for extremely ritual use by perhaps only
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a handful of people at certain times.
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Yeah.
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However, they're represented by the red lines in your map,
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all of the roads.
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All of them. Yeah, And most of those red lines
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are the big roads, because those smaller roads are pretty local.
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There's some smaller features in Choco.
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You have a photograph of one of these, photograph something
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to shows what those lines represent somewhere.
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I have a photograph, but I have a map that
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kind of shows it.
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An R two astronomer recently said to me that there's
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a curse on the whole field, and it's this that
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it is horrifically difficult to take any sort of good
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photograph of the sun setting on an alignment, or it's
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very hard to visually reproduce you from the nature of
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looking directly into the sun. So it's very seldom you
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see them. In the Scottish and Irish burial tunes, where
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there's light boxes and passages that frame the sun, you
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can get awesome photographs of the rocks in there, But
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in the Chaco and open landscape, it must be pretty
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hard to photograph that, even from the air.
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Ah, yeah, it typically is. And this is that Pueblo Pintado,
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which is east of the canyon. It's one of the
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outliers that is a part of the Park Service Chaco
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Culture Historical Park System. And this you see this light
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line here, Tell me that's a route. That's actually the road. Yeah,
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so you've got a vegetation change there, and this is
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summer solstice sunset. Wonderful, so you can see that road's
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going right to the sun on summer solstice sunset. Which
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what adds to the interest here is you know, it
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is a chocolate outlier, it's got the road to the sunset.
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It's not exactly on a flat horizon, so this has
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been adjusted to match the visual horizon. And that's also
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the head of Chaco Canyon where that sun sets. So
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where it starts is where that sun sets. So yeah,
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where where the canyon starts is right where that sun
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sets from point.
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So your photographic perspective is from the from a let's
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just see a pilgrim or a trades person approaching Chaco
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Canyon from the east.
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Yeah, or or someone at at that great house observing
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that sunset knowing that that's the sun is setting figuratively
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in Chaco Canyon.
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I'm going to have to edit out that whole bit
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about saying it's really difficult to take arch astronomy in
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photography because this is just wonderful water.
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Yeah, this was attempt to tempt One was actually Robin
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I were out there with his advisor when he's working
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on his doctorate, and we hadn't planned to go out there.
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It was summer solstice. We just had some time left
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over and we thought, well, we can probably get to
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club and toad and see if there's anything going on,
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because there were some things that I thought might line
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up with the summer solstice, some sights out there and
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the Great House. We got out there and they just
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weren't looking good at all, and we all three kind
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of the light bulb went off at the same time.
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We looked at each other and said the road, and
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we went over and had this similar experience. Then I
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went back the next year and got a better.
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Photo of it. So three of you witnessed this event. Yeah,
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that's a moment. That must be a highlight though, because
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you're seeing all of your tables and charts and graphs
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and speculation coming into stark visual reality.
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Oh yeah, and we you know, we looked at this
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road for years and it's like it's in between the
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the lunar major and solstice. You know, it's alignment. And
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it's like it's got to be salstice. No, it's not.
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It doesn't fit anything. So you get more data and
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you go, it's got to fit more. No, no, it
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still doesn't. So it's like, what does it fit? What
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does it fit? Then finally we're out there at the
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right time. It's like, oh, okay, that's where it fits.
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I'm going to ask you to shows a lie image
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of fish road. But but first of all, it like
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i'd like to say or something, give me your perspective
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on why there's a vegetation color change on the road.
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It's this is because it has been excavated, so it's
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a swale of a lower part of the landscape. And
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you have a different soil both you know, prosty permeability,
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the nutrients in the road, so it has a different
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plant community in the road and also different moisture content
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in the road. So you get these alignments and it's
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not uncommon to you out there one week you see
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the road, it's like, yeah, there it is. You go
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out the next week, it's invisible because the plants have
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changed and it no longer has that vegetation enhancement to
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show it.
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I was just going to ask you looking at this picture,
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it's all about the perspective when it comes to the
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photos and everything. So I was just wondering, well, you
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can't see that in a regular aerial shot of it.
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You can't see that. You know, the vegetation is sort.
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Of linear in respect to the scene.
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But like you just said, it depends time of year
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you go. These plants can be dor it, you know.
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So yeah, you can see this one in an aerial photo. Okay, okay, Purty,
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this is one of those really obvious ones, even though
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you know for years it wasn't a road. Finally the
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road and I can yeah that data. I can show
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you both the area and the light ar of this.
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I'd love you too. I'm completely hooked by the the green,
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high vegetation of the field surrounding, but then the stark
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yellow brush. It's as if, as you said, there's a
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colony of plants that exists on less water. There's less
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matter for their roots to go into. So there are
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is a cactus on the road almost.
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Yeah, yeah, and that that actually happens quite a bit
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on the large roads just because you've got the the
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sediments blowing mostly blowing in. Sometimes it's erosion that causes
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the difference, but usually it's the sediments blowing in.
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And because of that one color change that that opens up.
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You know, the researchers who use only use Google Maps,
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you really could do a lot of damage with Google
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Maps seeing those color changes and find a lot you know, Oh,
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you don't need lightar specifically to notice that one, say
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Google Earth rather.
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No, yeah, and you could you can actually take you know,
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do classification of the whole entire scene, you know, classify
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the various vegetation that you see, and you know, even
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set up some algorithms to where I only want to
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look for this road right here, this area when you
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go do ground truth things set up you only want
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to see two square meters. If it's less than two
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square meters, I'm not going to consider that it's greater
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than two square meters, We'll go in and verify. So, yeah,
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you're right, White Ours A lot of people think light
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ar is the answer to a lot of things.
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White Arch just has such a tool best it is
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last years and then we're about to be showing why
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in it.
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It's great for finding things you didn't know about in uh,
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mas Verde when you have one big road there and
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uh with the light r they're all over there.
243
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Have you go to the shore.
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So this is a photo by Matt Schultz of a
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Pueblo Pentado. So it gives you an idea of what
246
00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:11.360
the Great House looks like. Okay, yeah, okay, and that
247
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this is that right. So it's one that you know,
248
00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:20.000
we've known about for years, but we never could figure
249
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out what it was.
250
00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:24.159
I need to know if you've ever calculated to determine
251
00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:25.759
itself the lane and dug a hole.
252
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Uh not doug a hole, No, but yeah, I know
253
00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:38.639
exactly it terminates. It terminates right where it enters Chocolate Canyon.
254
00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:41.639
That's where you can't see it anymore. I think it
255
00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:46.360
does actually turn there because there's some road related structures
256
00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:53.200
that we've seen between that location in a community known
257
00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:56.440
as the East community in the park that has a
258
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great House and a bunch of domestic structures. I think
259
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:04.919
it takes an angle change there, but its formalization kind
260
00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:09.240
of goes away and you just get some road related
261
00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:13.759
architecture and features along it that that you can identify,
262
00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:16.240
but you can't really see a swale or anything like that.
263
00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:19.840
Whereabouts is that you enter the value? Are you seeing
264
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:21.720
the canyon from the top left?
265
00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:26.600
That road enters the canyon right about here, it actually
266
00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:28.000
enters outside the park.
267
00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:33.639
And in reverse, if you are standing in the north
268
00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:38.720
west looking southeast towards the Great House, you're going to
269
00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:43.600
see the winter solstice sunrising behind the house.
270
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Right right over it.
271
00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:51.279
That's that's spectacular because that unites the person in the
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00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:56.759
house with the winter solstice rising sun. Yeah, that's a
273
00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:01.240
fascinating road. How long is that what we're looking at? Lengthwise?
274
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:09.920
Oh? What is it? It's probably around six to seven kilometers.
275
00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:16.400
It's a it's a good sized road actually, And I
276
00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:19.880
thought I had the light ar in the presentation, but
277
00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:24.359
I don't. However, I could bring that up.
278
00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:28.000
Would you say? The majority of the great houses have
279
00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:31.720
roads associated with them?
280
00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:35.160
Yeah? Yeah, there are some that we haven't found a road,
281
00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:38.519
but they're pretty far and few between.
282
00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:42.880
It's really interesting because the building off the road and
283
00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:47.359
its alignment significance must have been of equal importance to
284
00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:49.200
the construction of the roundhouse.
285
00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:55.640
Yep, yeah, this is this is one of those days
286
00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:58.039
that was it was a good day. Yeah. When we
287
00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:01.319
saw this, it put to rest so many questions about
288
00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:05.680
this road and and and this. You know, this building
289
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:08.359
is also aligned to the lunar minor, so so you've
290
00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:12.079
got lunar and solar inlar building, which seems to be
291
00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:17.480
a fairly common thing now that the alignments to lunar
292
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and solar events are happening the same location.
293
00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:24.519
Hey, real quick, explain lunar minor.
294
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:30.160
To me, lunar miner is like that. It's it's the
295
00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:38.039
moon's maximum extent inside the solstice, so the moon moves
296
00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:42.920
back and forth outside the solstice, and the miners is
297
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.000
where it's inside.
298
00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:50.440
Can almost see lines off twenty in groups of forty
299
00:18:50.599 --> 00:18:55.559
people and barely wearing clothing, and what they're doing is
300
00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:59.240
working to sweat to clear this route. And I can't
301
00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:03.759
decide if they're enslaved or doing it in honor of
302
00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:05.359
their boss. What do you think?
303
00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:13.160
Yeah, Well, as far as I know, the only ones
304
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:18.000
who talk about this are the Navajo, and they will
305
00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:21.000
often refer to it as being the while they'll say
306
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:25.759
they were the slaves who built it. So that gives
307
00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:29.880
you a clue there possibly, but it could be. Like anything,
308
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:33.640
there's probably no real black and white answer, and it's
309
00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:37.039
probably more of a gray answer.
310
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:44.240
And there's a serious amount of time dedicated to two
311
00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:49.160
hundred and eighty mile of road. That's a big logistical
312
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:52.880
project with labor management, who fed the workers, clothed the workers.
313
00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:56.759
I mean, it's an enormous engineering task.
314
00:19:57.319 --> 00:19:57.599
M h.
315
00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:03.680
Okay. I think I finally have what I was looking for.
316
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:05.720
It's not exactly what I was looking for, but it's
317
00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:09.720
close enough. So that's probably Cantato. And if we go
318
00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:15.759
in here, we can see how your classic chocolate landscape works.
319
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:20.480
You've got these earthworks around the building. The building kind
320
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:23.599
of sits on a platform. This is the Great Kiva here,
321
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:29.680
and this road enters right between the Great House and
322
00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:35.319
the Great Kiva. And then typically all of these low
323
00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:39.359
spots there's a road coming out there as well, and
324
00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:41.799
there's there's one coming down here, one coming out here
325
00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:45.720
I know of. This actually looks in the wide are
326
00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:48.880
like a Great Kiva, and out there looks like a
327
00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:52.400
Great Cuba. It's probably an older Great Kiva and this
328
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:57.000
is a younger form. But yeah, you can see that
329
00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:00.359
this road quite clearly.
330
00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:05.359
Yes, yes, it's not another one paralleled it on the
331
00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:08.160
lower side of it.
332
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.960
It could be or it could be a modern road.
333
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:14.680
It's hard to say for sure. And these were the
334
00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:17.079
structures we were looking at. You can see there's a
335
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:19.799
road coming from this one to that pretty much that
336
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:25.319
same location, and an off little offshoot this road comes
337
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:27.920
to that one, and then it goes back onto this one.
338
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:31.279
So that low structure is probably you know, there's something
339
00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:34.720
going on there that's important. We kind of lose it
340
00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:36.720
out in here, but then you pick it up right
341
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:41.720
here and right here again and right here, and you
342
00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:46.519
can see more structures here and then this is the
343
00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:50.200
mouth of the canyon right here. Yeah, that's the mouth
344
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:54.119
of the canyon, or the head of the canyon, not mouth. Yeah.
345
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:57.759
So so it comes in here, it enters right here,
346
00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:03.640
and then you're in Chocoal Canyon, and I think it
347
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:06.240
probably takes an angle change there and goes down and
348
00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:11.200
we can look at the aerial underneath that's to see
349
00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:18.599
what that looks like. In aerial photography, it's harder to see. Yeah. Yeah,
350
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:22.039
So now we can kind of see that where Charcoal
351
00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:27.759
Canyon is and that's as far as that area goes.
352
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:32.880
She bekase she is right here, and then most of the
353
00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:36.039
big structures on east of that, west of that, I mean,
354
00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:40.680
and then this is where the Great House is and
355
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.880
you can see that the road quite clearly.
356
00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:46.920
What kind of data are we looking at now? Is
357
00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:48.319
this photography?
358
00:22:50.599 --> 00:22:56.880
This is uh NAPE National Aerial Inventory Program photography, US
359
00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:03.440
Department of egg I think this is one little data,
360
00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:08.519
so it's not super high resolution, but it gets the
361
00:23:08.599 --> 00:23:15.519
job done. And the square here is the fence the
362
00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:19.480
park Service fence around the site because it is an
363
00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:22.839
outlying unit of the park so they have a fence
364
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:29.519
around the site itself to keep animals out and keep
365
00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:30.559
it some hot, pristine.
366
00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:36.920
Real quick, how did they construct the features there, the buildings?
367
00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:40.279
Did they use the earth around it on the side?
368
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:42.920
Did they kind of just mine what was local to
369
00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:44.640
that area.
370
00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:51.240
More less? Yeah, there's a gravel core or gravel amazing requirry.
371
00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:54.079
I believe that this is it right here.
372
00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:57.799
So I'm fascinated to know too that the stones came
373
00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:01.480
from from the kivas, because the stones for that Kiva
374
00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:04.559
Pintadu come from maybe the actual mouth of the canyon.
375
00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:06.680
Rocks that were in the water that kind of thing,
376
00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:09.400
or is the is the quarry right behind it?
377
00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:14.319
I think it's probably the quarry right behind it, although
378
00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:17.240
that's not a real big quarry. As you can see,
379
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:20.400
some of the sandstone is pretty specific. You see kind
380
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:26.440
of this red brown, real tabular sandstone, which that's what
381
00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:30.839
they use from you know, eight fifty on up through
382
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:37.759
about eleven eleven twenty five, around ten seventy five ish,
383
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:42.079
they start integrating some of these bigger blocks, which are
384
00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:47.160
this the the other sandstone there's is pretty iron rich
385
00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:49.920
and it's also has more silica in the cement, so
386
00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:55.640
it's really hard. This sandstone typically is more has a
387
00:24:55.640 --> 00:25:02.599
calcium calcareous cement, so it's pretty soft. And most of
388
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:05.400
this is typically big block. Once you get past eleven
389
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:11.039
twenty eleven eleven thirty somewhere, and there actually starts around
390
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.240
and fifty ten twenty five, you start seeing this show up.
391
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:19.759
It's called macalmal masonry. It'll all be these big, big
392
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:24.599
blocks and they're shaped where this sandstone is shaped by
393
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:28.039
cutting it, you know, scribing it and breaking the face off.
394
00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:32.200
This is shaped more you do that scribing, but because
395
00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:34.960
it doesn't break so cleanly, then there's a lot of
396
00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:37.559
pecking and whatnot that you can see in the surfaces
397
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:41.039
that shapes it. So there's there will be multiple sources
398
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:43.680
like for this this wall, there would be two different
399
00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:49.440
sources of sandstone. One for this this nice fine red
400
00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:54.200
brown sandstone and one for the more yellow, softer sandstone.
401
00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:59.359
And this is in Osco Blanco and Chocoal Canyon. This
402
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:01.240
is in PM and you Osco Blanco and you can
403
00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:03.799
see the core of an ear masonry. You got this
404
00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:07.359
nice of an ear on the outside with this is
405
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:12.160
actually a nine nice ashlar core in it and mud mortar.
406
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:16.799
Quite often you get larger cobbles in their larger lots
407
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:20.119
of sandstone in there. But that's a real nice one.
408
00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:24.599
Waltery're rich here said something last time that still keeps
409
00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:27.920
me awake at nights. He said, perhaps not only were
410
00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:30.319
the stars been mapped in some of the alignments, but
411
00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:36.119
also to the underworld was being mapped. Get that as
412
00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:39.160
in their conception of the underworld. For example, in Egypt,
413
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:43.279
when you pass and there's thirteen challenges in each with
414
00:26:43.400 --> 00:26:48.200
its environment to conquer before you get to the the god,
415
00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:51.359
the keeper of the threshold. So there could be elements
416
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:54.640
of the underworld up here as well. That completely baffle us,
417
00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:59.039
but made perfect sense to them, as in the alti
418
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:02.680
solstices or lunar max as their minimums or tequinoxes. They're
419
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:06.200
not all Yeah, some of them even don't have They
420
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:09.039
stop in the middle of nowhere. Apparently in the middle
421
00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:12.119
of nowhere, they'll go for several miles two parallel roads,
422
00:27:12.279 --> 00:27:15.559
they go up faces, their steps cut into mountain sides
423
00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:20.119
to adhere to straightness. And it's been considered that maybe
424
00:27:20.119 --> 00:27:23.160
that is the missing element, is the actual concept of
425
00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:27.000
straightness in a wild, chaotic landscape. If you had the
426
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:30.640
power to do something straight and consistent, that's a fair
427
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:33.839
demonstration of order in a chaotic world.
428
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:37.880
Power proven power. Right, you're displaying.
429
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:45.000
Displaying, yes, straightness, linearity, order when everything else was in flux.
430
00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:48.240
So here's lablo benito.
431
00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:52.359
Oh okay, I've seen pictures of this.
432
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:56.000
Before, and for scale. There's a there's a car in
433
00:27:56.039 --> 00:28:01.519
the parking lot, right there? Is there anybody? Yeah, there's
434
00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:02.720
somebody standing right here.
435
00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:08.279
Okay, Yeah, I suppose there's been several people have calculated
436
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:11.680
the labor required to do something like that, right.
437
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:19.240
Yes, Steve Laxen did, and yeah, and and he came
438
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:22.720
up with that you could that ten people could do
439
00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:28.559
it over the length of the of you know, Benito's existence.
440
00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:30.799
Of course, he didn't, you know.
441
00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:34.000
Take into account what do you mean ten people.
442
00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:38.319
That these are big, big building He was thinking, you know,
443
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:42.279
somebody working on it three hundred and sixty five days
444
00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:45.799
a year. Ten people could do it. But based on
445
00:28:46.119 --> 00:28:51.759
how what he observed the stabilization crew out there for
446
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:55.319
I think a couple of weeks, and that's where his
447
00:28:55.400 --> 00:29:00.720
calculations came from. Of course, I don't think that also
448
00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:07.359
included the amount of work effort to bring the masonry
449
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:10.279
elements from the quarries which are one to five miles away,
450
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:15.200
and to bring the mud in by hand, to dig
451
00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:17.000
the mud and bring it in by hand, and also
452
00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:20.319
to bring the water in by hand, and that these
453
00:29:20.359 --> 00:29:23.720
were done in what looks like, you know, large episodic
454
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:28.519
building events. So you're you're building everything over the course
455
00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:31.440
of ten years, not over the course of thirty years,
456
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:34.440
which means you've got to or in some cases probably
457
00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:36.920
over the course of two years. So you've got to
458
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:41.559
have a pretty good construction crew in there to do it.
459
00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:46.400
And you know that's just not Benito You've got Checho Kettle,
460
00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:49.519
which is being built at the same time at the
461
00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:59.720
same scale, Pueblo del Rayo wellowdell Out, Pueblo Altos and Kletzing.
462
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:10.240
Uh You've got Ango Pave Pablo uhh and Tato when
463
00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:14.680
you Asko Blanco uh u Navida. So you've got a
464
00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:17.400
lot of great houses that are all getting constructed at
465
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:20.839
that same time. So it's uh, yeah, I think you
466
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:25.839
had quite a number out there to do it.
467
00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:28.119
It's always a question was a lot of people in
468
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:31.559
little time or a little ament of people and a
469
00:30:31.559 --> 00:30:34.000
lot of time that did these things?
470
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:40.279
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it depends. Yeah, it all depends on
471
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:47.240
how you look at how it was constructed and that
472
00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:51.400
that gives you a good view of Bablo Benito too.
473
00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:54.640
So it was much more defined and sharp or even
474
00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:56.240
fifteen years ago.
475
00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:01.720
Yeah, it looks like commonality here is there.
476
00:31:02.440 --> 00:31:03.240
They're both up.
477
00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:06.680
It looks like they're all well, the ones I've seen
478
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:11.680
thus far are up against a cliff or something a ridge.
479
00:31:12.359 --> 00:31:15.039
Uh no, no, they Yeah, they're in all sorts of
480
00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:21.319
different settings. Okay, Pablo Alto is actually on top of
481
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:27.279
the mesa behind Benito. Yeah. Actually, yeah, it's not really
482
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:30.200
a mason's looks like it from there, but it's a
483
00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:38.640
ridge escarpment into a ridge. So that's the first construction stage.
484
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:42.079
And you've got a little six foot tall figure. And
485
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:46.119
actually the very first stage is right in here. Then
486
00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:49.200
these wings are added on and there's actually this goes
487
00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:52.680
one room set farther than that. I just haven't added
488
00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:57.359
it back in yet. And this is the first great Kiva.
489
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:01.759
What was this girl reports? You said there was a
490
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:02.519
person down there.
491
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:12.720
Yeah, that's a six foot tall figure. And here we've
492
00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:15.440
got kind of like the prototype of the mounds that
493
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:20.319
show up out front in the final stages in this
494
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:24.039
hook in this building shows up in the final stages again,
495
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:29.279
and right in here where most of the really impressive
496
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:34.319
material culture has found all the artifacts along with this
497
00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:40.200
room series right in here. Look at this now, yes, yeah,
498
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:44.480
so this is the original wedge right in here. So
499
00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:48.960
that starts somewhere between eight twenty five and eight fifty,
500
00:32:50.440 --> 00:32:54.160
and then the rest of it was added on and
501
00:32:54.200 --> 00:32:58.519
this is yeah, so this is stage two from eight
502
00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:02.240
thirty five to ten fifty. This is the final outline
503
00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:05.519
for Benito. So you can see it grows over time. Okay,
504
00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:09.200
And this is a lot of this is based on
505
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:15.079
Pepper and Judds excavation notes and work, as well as
506
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:22.519
extrusion heights are based on photogrammetry and measuring physically what
507
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:27.920
was out there. This model looks a lot different than
508
00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:31.359
other models you see because people have gone through and
509
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:36.079
look at story numbers and you know, calculated the extrusion
510
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:40.039
based on stories, which we've got four stories here, three
511
00:33:40.039 --> 00:33:42.720
stories over here. But these four stories are six to
512
00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:45.960
seven feet tall. These three stories are eleven to twelve
513
00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:53.480
feet tall, so a little bit different scale there. And
514
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:55.640
this is where we get to where it looks like
515
00:33:55.799 --> 00:34:00.359
what it does now more like it This fund Foundation
516
00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:09.079
complex that sits over there is it's foundations that were
517
00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:11.400
in the ground, but there were no walls on it
518
00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:13.400
when it was excavated, so we don't know if there
519
00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:18.440
were ever walls there or not. But from this corner
520
00:34:18.559 --> 00:34:21.440
to the west corner is the same distance as that
521
00:34:21.559 --> 00:34:26.000
corner to the east corner on the Foundation complex. Interesting,
522
00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:28.920
so it looks like there's some sort of symmetry there.
523
00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:34.800
So and there's that hook I was talking about. It's
524
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:38.960
back with two kivas in it. The first great kiva
525
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:41.559
was here, second was here, third was here, it was
526
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:44.840
completely deconstructed, and then the fourth was there, which if
527
00:34:44.840 --> 00:34:49.519
you look at the building as quadrants, then we have
528
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:54.360
four different quadrants of the building going counterclockwise through time.
529
00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:58.880
Now that was all to set up was this which
530
00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:03.360
hopefully you can see it. So this is using those
531
00:35:03.400 --> 00:35:09.760
same construction stages in that video for this illustration. So
532
00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:17.320
at between eight twenty eight and nine thirty five, you've
533
00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:21.000
got Benito and Chetro Kettle. The first alignment or building
534
00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:24.880
in Chetro Kettle happens during that time. That building is
535
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:29.519
on the lunar minor alignment, so from its inception till
536
00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:33.840
till the end, they're building out on that lunar minor alignment.
537
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:38.280
And there is something at Pueblo Alto at that time,
538
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:45.000
there's a structure under neath Publo Alto. But when it
539
00:35:45.159 --> 00:35:48.360
was the test excavations were down it was I think
540
00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:52.960
about one third excavated in the seventies. They didn't you
541
00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:58.159
get enough of that subsurface structure or sub below the
542
00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:01.280
current great house structure to know exactly what it looked like.
543
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:04.840
And we go forward in time, this is Pueblo Alto,
544
00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:08.280
Pueblo Bonito, and Cetro Kettle. Things are getting bigger. You know,
545
00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:12.679
around ten to fifty, things are starting to look pretty serious.
546
00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:17.159
Then from ten to fifty to eleven seventy you get
547
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:23.679
a lot of construction, still not super huge. Pueblo dela
548
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:27.440
Royo shows up at that point, but from ten seventy
549
00:36:27.480 --> 00:36:31.719
to eleven fifteen is when chocolate looks like it does today.
550
00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:36.000
So most of that construction happened in that timeframe, and
551
00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:38.840
you can see that's a lot of construction. Then after
552
00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:44.719
ten to fifteen it's mostly just fill in, adding small kivas,
553
00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:48.000
taking a far room suite and mate putting the kiva
554
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:51.840
in there, are remodeling a large room into akiva sort
555
00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:57.719
of thing. Nothing really major. Yeah, so all these circular
556
00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:04.800
features are key in contemporary Pueblo cultures. Kivas are you know,
557
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:09.920
ceremonial rooms where things are done, ritual practices take place.
558
00:37:10.519 --> 00:37:13.079
That's a great graphic. I mean, I really like how
559
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:14.079
you show that because you.
560
00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:17.159
Can show activity, so then you could deduce from that
561
00:37:18.039 --> 00:37:20.159
things were flourishing during this time period.
562
00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:24.480
Mm hmm, that that something was happening in that something.
563
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:25.960
Yeah, there was a surplus of something.
564
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:31.039
Do you think this shows as evidence of advancements and
565
00:37:31.159 --> 00:37:35.760
fortification for defensive purposes as well, because that's a damn
566
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:37.960
good for that top left there, and I'd like to
567
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:44.360
be there. Yeah, most of it's high, and then you're
568
00:37:44.360 --> 00:37:46.280
defending one wall, one face.
569
00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:47.920
Mm hm.
570
00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:52.239
As time goes on, it does look like they're they're
571
00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:54.719
getting somewhat more defensive in nature.
572
00:37:56.079 --> 00:38:01.559
I suppose with excess resources you can have excess and reading.
573
00:38:03.159 --> 00:38:06.599
Yeah. Yeah, and some people it could be interpreted as
574
00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:13.400
defensive in nature or as exclusionary. So you know, the
575
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:16.599
average person cannot go into this space, sure arth do
576
00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:18.880
they have to have a good reason to be allowed
577
00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:24.719
to go in? Yeah? Yeah, And in this helps. This
578
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:28.039
shows the buildings, so all the major buildings in that
579
00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:34.920
downtown Chaco area along with the roads, so you get
580
00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:36.320
an idea of what that looks like.
581
00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:40.880
I love how you're so familiar with the site that
582
00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:43.159
you called the Chaco Downtown area.
583
00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:49.800
Yeah, that's that's kind of what every It's either the
584
00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:53.119
Chaco Downtown, Downtown Choco or Choco Core is how will
585
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:57.719
refer to it, because that's where you've got this concentration.
586
00:38:57.159 --> 00:38:59.159
Of great You look at these roots, I mean it's
587
00:38:59.360 --> 00:39:00.000
spell By.
588
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:06.960
And this is casser in Kanada Pueblo Pueblo Dela Royal,
589
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:14.199
Netro Kettle. These are the small domestic sites and you
590
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:19.000
can see, you know, road coming from Bendo to casser
591
00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:22.840
and Kanada. A lot of roads coming from up at
592
00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:27.800
Pueblo Alto, which is right here to Cechro Kettle, Pueblo Alto.
593
00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:30.960
You see all these roads, that's kind of like the
594
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:33.960
road fan. That's what's known as the road fan coming
595
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:39.880
into Alto into primarily gates in this wall that goes
596
00:39:39.920 --> 00:39:40.960
across the back of it.
597
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:44.239
I just want you to go back a little. Yeah,
598
00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:48.719
see those two roads coming in from the top and
599
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:54.000
terminating that. That does suggest that they were rope pullying
600
00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:57.039
lots of goods up and down, perhaps even people in
601
00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:00.800
wooden baskets. Why would a road begin end on the
602
00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:01.599
top of a cliff.
603
00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:08.519
Yeah, yeah, this one, there's toe holds all up, so
604
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:11.000
the hand and toe holds going up the cliff cliff
605
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:12.920
to get to the first part, you could have a
606
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:16.039
ladder then hand in toe holds. This one there's not much,
607
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:19.440
but there is this building at the bottom which went
608
00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:21.840
up quite a way, so you could have a ladder
609
00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:25.559
or some sort of scaffolding there in a ladder to
610
00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:26.679
get the rest of the way up.
611
00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:28.239
What's that height?
612
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:29.920
How tall is that?
613
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:37.360
It's about probably sixty feet? Okay, it's a ways. I mean,
614
00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:42.000
that's not insurmountable, but you wouldn't want to drop off it. No, no,
615
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:47.119
And and right here, this is kind of an interesting
616
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:50.440
Do I show it. You can kind of see it
617
00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:56.719
right here. There's some rooms kind of missing at this
618
00:40:56.920 --> 00:40:59.880
corner of Chetro Kettle and I think that's so that
619
00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:02.719
that's where that route that road enters there. Addressing that
620
00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:06.760
road coming down. There's actually a ramp build up here,
621
00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:11.599
so you could have a very short ladder or just
622
00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:14.159
the ramp itself could actually get up on top there
623
00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:21.719
a shorter fall, yeah, yeah, shorter falls. And then these
624
00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:25.760
roads actually you can you can get climb up the cliff.
625
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:30.320
There's there's ways up. But this road predates that road
626
00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:32.800
and it was closed off. There's a rock alignment going
627
00:41:32.840 --> 00:41:38.360
across it. So the first road was matched this alignment
628
00:41:38.440 --> 00:41:42.320
alignment of this wall. Once that wall was enclosed with
629
00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:46.000
this this wall, this this east west wall was enclosed
630
00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:50.039
with this front wall, a new entrance was created, and
631
00:41:50.119 --> 00:41:53.000
that road addresses that new entrance, which.
632
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:56.800
Is kind of interesting. It is the over here.
633
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:03.159
And there's the parking lot with cars in it for scale,
634
00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:05.719
so you get a scale of of what this is
635
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:12.800
all built at. And you can see this wall aligns
636
00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:15.480
with this road that goes to a structure on the
637
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:18.920
other side of the canyon. That wall aligns with that
638
00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:21.880
road goes to a structure on the other side, and
639
00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:27.079
then this road goes to this notch and can Kleetso
640
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:31.480
you got this. You know, everything's getting locked in together
641
00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:34.320
with the roads as well as the roads going to
642
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:40.440
alcos or little cavettes in the cliffs or springs, and
643
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:43.599
so there's several different types of things or behaviors.
644
00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:48.159
How would you answer this, which kim first, the kivas
645
00:42:48.199 --> 00:42:50.760
and the buildings or the roads.
646
00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:57.880
That's yeah, that's the classic chicken or egg question, and
647
00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:02.800
there there is no good answer. I think I think
648
00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:08.840
sometimes there the roads are coming after construction, but I
649
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:15.719
think in most instances those alignments are there prior to construction,
650
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:20.679
and they're known alignments that for whatever reason are there
651
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:23.960
prior to construction. And then the construction of the buildings
652
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:30.920
is emphasize this important location that was already important throughout time.
653
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:35.599
Underneath Benino, there is a basket maker several Basketmaker three structures.
654
00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:38.880
So now it starts in Basketmaker three, and there may
655
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:41.079
be earlier stuff under that as well.
656
00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:44.800
What's the time period for basket Maker three for the audience?
657
00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:50.320
Basket Maker three is around four fifty five hundred ish
658
00:43:50.440 --> 00:43:54.119
to seven hundred seven fifty depending on who you talk to.
659
00:43:54.559 --> 00:43:58.840
It changes, but you know who's somewhere in that time range.
660
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:04.559
And then Basketmaker two is before that. But yeah, there's
661
00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:08.039
there's archaic sites in Choco as well, and some of
662
00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:11.239
those archaic scites, some features with those line up with
663
00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:14.960
features that show up as being or alignments that are
664
00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:19.199
important during you know, Chalco's fluorescence. So I think this
665
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:21.960
is stuff that starts, some of it starting way early
666
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:27.119
the South Road, uh Rob when in his master's thesis
667
00:44:27.639 --> 00:44:31.920
and not master's doctorate, he demonstrated pretty well. But that
668
00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:37.199
is a an alignment that starts early, probably in Basketmaker three.
669
00:44:37.639 --> 00:44:41.599
So yeah, and my guess is it's going on before that,
670
00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:46.199
and you're just getting formalization of whatever that alignment is
671
00:44:46.239 --> 00:44:50.559
through time to make it, you know, more important or
672
00:44:50.599 --> 00:44:51.639
to address it's important.
673
00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:58.440
You're seeing the buildings monumentalize the lines in a great sense.
674
00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:00.760
Yeah, yeah, I think that's exactly what's happening.
675
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:03.840
So there was an awareness of angle and angle and
676
00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:08.559
astronomy and significance and angular awareness of one's environment, and
677
00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:13.480
eventually that was ritualized and the key let's call them notes,
678
00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:18.039
key points in the landscape, perhaps deemed sacred, were built
679
00:45:18.159 --> 00:45:18.440
upon it.
680
00:45:18.519 --> 00:45:23.840
Now mm hmm yeah, And I think probably Lowry Run
681
00:45:25.159 --> 00:45:30.880
or Lowry Pueblo demonstrates that pretty well. This because it's smaller.
682
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:33.440
Choco is so big you get you get lost and
683
00:45:33.639 --> 00:45:36.719
everything that's there. The outliers are a little bit smaller
684
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:41.679
and easier to to deal with. And let's see.
685
00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:45.599
Here are we looking at all your own droll napping rich.
686
00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:49.199
Yeah, yeah, this is all drawn and it's some of
687
00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:53.239
us light R that anis Affair and Solstice Project had done.
688
00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:59.360
Some of it's the the USGS wide r MBOM wide R.
689
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:05.079
This is okay, where are you now?
690
00:46:05.079 --> 00:46:07.639
If we can just establish the Light Our Project for
691
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:08.719
Columbia where we.
692
00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:13.679
Are, oh yeah, that would be that would be huge.
693
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:17.119
We're privately funded. Everything we do is out of our
694
00:46:17.119 --> 00:46:20.559
own heps, so never mind to get the drone and
695
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:23.760
the light our unit. But then probably the same again
696
00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:27.320
for the software to interpret it. Am I right in
697
00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:28.079
seeing that?
698
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:31.920
Yeah, I've got the software, asked, don't worry about software.
699
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:32.280
I've got so.
700
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:37.440
Yeah, we've We've got a light our drone at San
701
00:46:37.559 --> 00:46:42.960
Lung College. We we're working to get it, get everything
702
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:44.599
figured out so we know how to use it.
703
00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:49.440
I love the idea of having your own system. You
704
00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:54.440
built this drone, you have the light our sensor, you know,
705
00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:57.360
you have the SDK, you know how all the data
706
00:46:57.400 --> 00:46:57.880
has moved.
707
00:46:58.159 --> 00:46:58.679
You know that.
708
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:04.239
But that requires so much knowledge. That requires a smaller
709
00:47:04.360 --> 00:47:08.480
pocket book than a turnkey system. However, if you have
710
00:47:08.599 --> 00:47:12.039
these places like actually and I have that Wedde, we
711
00:47:12.199 --> 00:47:13.400
just want the freaking data.
712
00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:16.239
I just I just want the lighter it want here
713
00:47:16.280 --> 00:47:17.000
to do the data.
714
00:47:17.679 --> 00:47:19.760
Yeah, I can process it myself.
715
00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:21.079
I just need the equipment.
716
00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:23.840
That's where the money comes into play. Unless you do
717
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:27.760
your own system, which I can't do that myself. I'd
718
00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:30.000
had to quit my job and just immerse myself into
719
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:32.440
that for six months, you know, in order to have anything.
720
00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:33.440
I love that.
721
00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:37.360
Get you down here for six months with your dress. Yeah,
722
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:41.079
you're right to Walter. And also maybe something that terrifies
723
00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:43.599
me to is this Walter's the eyes in the sky
724
00:47:43.719 --> 00:47:47.360
for everything we do here. And I know this. The
725
00:47:47.559 --> 00:47:50.960
minute that you go and spend sy twenty forty sixty,
726
00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:53.159
god knows what it would be for big drone that's
727
00:47:53.159 --> 00:47:55.920
going to give you the flight time Within months of
728
00:47:56.159 --> 00:47:58.880
you buying that, it's going to be debased, devalued by
729
00:47:58.880 --> 00:48:01.000
the next generation, and then you're going to be sitting
730
00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:03.920
with something, oh sixty K in the cupboard in two years,
731
00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:05.400
going well, it can't do this or.
732
00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:10.280
That or this. Yeah it's not it's not worth what
733
00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:11.000
to pay for it.
734
00:48:11.800 --> 00:48:12.880
But but just remember this.
735
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:15.599
Actually the drone that I've been taking out there for
736
00:48:15.639 --> 00:48:17.320
the last how many how many years have I been
737
00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:18.119
coming out there to see it?
738
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:22.159
Six seven years, eight years something like that.
739
00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:23.559
Yeah, I have.
740
00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:27.719
Used the same drone the whole time. And you get
741
00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:29.960
great stuff when we have the Semmings.
742
00:48:29.599 --> 00:48:31.119
Right, don't I don't want to.
743
00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:35.079
I've seen people here with five and ten K drones
744
00:48:35.119 --> 00:48:37.480
and Walter kurits his thing up and it looks more
745
00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:40.800
like a helicopter than a drone. It's huge and it
746
00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:43.800
but it's so stable and heavy in the air. And
747
00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:47.119
this is what people overlook. That thing has a lesser
748
00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:50.400
gimbal than a modern drone. But my goodness, it's so
749
00:48:51.159 --> 00:48:53.639
pleasurable to edit. It is pristine.
750
00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:56.159
Hm.
751
00:48:56.239 --> 00:48:58.519
It's just that it's just that Phantom four pro and
752
00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:03.519
that thing is years old and it's a work. Ashley
753
00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:05.480
and I were doing something and it hit a tree.
754
00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:07.480
It fell down. I'm like, oh crap.
755
00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:10.840
All we did was just set it aside, charge at
756
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:11.320
the battery.
757
00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:12.639
Well, let's see what happens.
758
00:49:12.840 --> 00:49:13.639
Works like a chant.
759
00:49:13.840 --> 00:49:18.280
Yeah wow that yeah, that would not happen with a
760
00:49:18.360 --> 00:49:19.840
magic no.
761
00:49:19.960 --> 00:49:23.519
Oh no that I did that with my magic.
762
00:49:23.559 --> 00:49:25.519
I thought I'd get a little cocky and I figured, well,
763
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:28.760
let's just go faster. It was wintertime, leaves were not
764
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:32.079
on the tree. I did not see the branch. Because
765
00:49:32.119 --> 00:49:33.480
the last thing I want to do is take my
766
00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:36.239
grown up and fly something. Because after I'll tell you this,
767
00:49:36.519 --> 00:49:38.639
every time you tell me to get us, get a
768
00:49:38.679 --> 00:49:40.920
shot of this, get get a map of this.
769
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:43.039
I'm like, I'm gonna screw this up.
770
00:49:43.320 --> 00:49:45.239
I'm gonna screw this up. I'm gonna give him something
771
00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:47.079
that's crap he's not gonna be able to use. I'm
772
00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:49.360
gonna feel like garbage. I don't want to do this,
773
00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:52.400
but that does not stop infram asking always what about this?
774
00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:53.000
What about this?
775
00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:55.400
And I'm sitting there, Oh God, I don't want to
776
00:49:55.440 --> 00:49:56.119
do this anymore.
777
00:49:56.239 --> 00:49:57.280
It's too stressful.
778
00:49:57.719 --> 00:50:01.559
In February last year, will To was tasked with flying
779
00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:05.760
is drone down a four hundred meters river gully and
780
00:50:05.800 --> 00:50:09.000
then to fly fly up the face of the highest
781
00:50:09.159 --> 00:50:12.280
waterfall in Colombia as close as he could get. And
782
00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:14.559
the whole way, the whole way, I'm going to lose
783
00:50:14.599 --> 00:50:16.079
the do and I'm gonna let you down. The film
784
00:50:16.119 --> 00:50:19.280
is going to be useless. Every time. He's like a parrot.
785
00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:24.480
And what happens, I get the most unbelievable, not just
786
00:50:24.519 --> 00:50:27.480
the waterfall for footage, but he mapped the whole thing.
787
00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:29.360
He made a point cloud above it, and I've got
788
00:50:29.800 --> 00:50:32.719
all of this stuff within this world. And the waterfalls
789
00:50:32.719 --> 00:50:36.079
are central part in the creation mythology of the Moiska culture.
790
00:50:36.159 --> 00:50:40.840
So we thought, let's map the zero point ground zero
791
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:44.079
for the creation myth of the Moiska culture. We did.
792
00:50:44.159 --> 00:50:47.400
And but yeah, but I wouldn't have seen you putting
793
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:50.400
in a brand new ten grand ravig into that situation, Wilter.
794
00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:52.880
You're happy to throw the old workhorse in.
795
00:50:55.360 --> 00:50:58.599
Yeah, I wouldn't mind doing that, But just leave me
796
00:50:58.679 --> 00:51:01.920
alone while I'm flying. Let me sit there and stew
797
00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:04.039
on my own. I don't want anybody talk to me.
798
00:51:04.119 --> 00:51:05.760
Hey, look at this, Look at this, Look at this.
799
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:11.519
No, but I'm always filming Walter Felt easing the drones.
800
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:14.239
So I am there over your shoulders, shoving in your fece.
801
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:17.400
We're on an hour and a half. Do you want
802
00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:20.039
to continue with the tops some more? You'd like to share,
803
00:51:20.039 --> 00:51:21.719
because of course it's not the last time you'll be
804
00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:24.960
on rich We were only scratching the surface here. But
805
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:26.159
what are we looking at there?
806
00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:30.800
So that's the site, the great House. It's a great
807
00:51:30.840 --> 00:51:33.960
house and a great kiva. And then it's got just
808
00:51:34.039 --> 00:51:37.480
a bunch of other actually rather large sites in the
809
00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:40.880
area as well. And that's a map of it. The
810
00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:44.639
great Kiva over here, Great house over here. And this
811
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:49.639
is not only it shows multiple alignments and how they
812
00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:53.360
are are addressed in the structure and outside the structure,
813
00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:58.960
but also an interpretation on the features in the kiva
814
00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:04.960
that add into this whole narrative. So the there's the
815
00:52:05.559 --> 00:52:08.000
the Great Kiva of the map. You can see the workhouse.
816
00:52:08.039 --> 00:52:11.559
It's got a roof over that part of it to
817
00:52:11.920 --> 00:52:15.679
protect it. And there's the Great Kiva. And the first
818
00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:18.000
time I went there, I looked at it and those
819
00:52:18.119 --> 00:52:22.079
look like effigies and you can see they kind of
820
00:52:22.159 --> 00:52:24.159
do this is a photogrammetric.
821
00:52:25.039 --> 00:52:30.960
Oh, people sitting down and holding something. Yeah, bags yeah.
822
00:52:31.119 --> 00:52:33.639
So And and then years later I went out with
823
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:36.840
John Stein and Taff black Horse, and Taff looks at
824
00:52:36.920 --> 00:52:40.440
he goes, those are effigies, uh, and he's he's Novajo.
825
00:52:41.159 --> 00:52:44.079
And then a few years later I went out and
826
00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:47.800
this sign was up, which is Santa Clara Pueblo person
827
00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:51.840
interpreted as being uh, effigies of the summer and winter people.
828
00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:55.400
So you know, after you hear that, you go, oh,
829
00:52:56.480 --> 00:53:00.239
you think, do maybe solstice or equinox alignment here? So
830
00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:02.159
I was all excited and I played with it and
831
00:53:02.199 --> 00:53:05.920
played with it. I never could get anything that I
832
00:53:06.039 --> 00:53:10.400
felt was definitive. And then I got light our data
833
00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:16.800
of it. So there's the aerial photo, the map, the
834
00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:18.840
light our data. So now you can see that's the
835
00:53:18.920 --> 00:53:22.639
Great Kiva, that's where the Great House is. We zoom
836
00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:28.880
out and you can see this chocolate on the road goes.
837
00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:31.679
You can see it going across these cultivated fields, so
838
00:53:31.800 --> 00:53:36.480
it hasn't been completely plowed out. That that's actually uh
839
00:53:37.199 --> 00:53:38.599
the lunar minor alignment.
840
00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:40.079
Lunar minor.
841
00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:44.280
Yeah, and then if we change the sun angle, which
842
00:53:44.360 --> 00:53:46.599
is nice about light r you can do that. Now
843
00:53:46.639 --> 00:53:50.239
you can see there's a road right here. There's this road,
844
00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:53.960
this road. Looking at it, you don't know that's that
845
00:53:54.280 --> 00:53:58.159
looks kind of like solstice. So I measured it and
846
00:53:59.559 --> 00:54:03.360
it's within three tenths of a degree of summersaults to
847
00:54:03.480 --> 00:54:07.920
sunset or winter salts to sunrise. And then looking at that,
848
00:54:08.079 --> 00:54:11.679
I'm going, huh, you know that that? I think that's
849
00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:16.239
pointing right at the Abajos. So you get up Google,
850
00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:18.360
get Google Earth. So I made the three D models
851
00:54:18.440 --> 00:54:23.679
of the building and the kiva, and and I extended
852
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:27.119
that you if you extend that line across the Great House,
853
00:54:27.559 --> 00:54:30.239
it goes right across the center of the Great Kiva,
854
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:38.679
and there's summer solstice sunset according to Google. So I
855
00:54:38.800 --> 00:54:43.159
went out there and oh see to see if that works.
856
00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:47.159
And this is a video of that summer solstice sunset
857
00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:49.280
across the building.
858
00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:51.679
Oh well done.
859
00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:56.400
And you can see there's a little peak right there
860
00:54:56.960 --> 00:55:00.320
right that actually sits right in the center of the
861
00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:02.559
sun at sunset.
862
00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:04.599
What's at the top of that peak.
863
00:55:04.599 --> 00:55:09.960
Probably something there is that that summer solstice alignment going
864
00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:13.320
right across the edge of the highest portion of the building. Albert,
865
00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:18.039
This is the earliest construction, so that point is actually
866
00:55:18.280 --> 00:55:24.280
really close to the corner of that back room, or
867
00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:28.480
if you offset a little, it's on an alignment that
868
00:55:29.039 --> 00:55:33.360
this door opening yep would cast stun and shadow right
869
00:55:33.480 --> 00:55:38.880
in the corner on the winter solstice sunrise interested and
870
00:55:40.079 --> 00:55:44.280
the lunar major moon set happens right at the corner
871
00:55:44.360 --> 00:55:46.599
of that building, between the corner of that building and
872
00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:50.800
the corner of this little structure. And if we look
873
00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:57.840
at it, this is done by Valentine. The moon comes
874
00:55:57.880 --> 00:56:00.360
down and it sets right in a notcho. We're here
875
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:06.679
right on that alignment. So what happens is because the
876
00:56:07.320 --> 00:56:13.000
sunsets right in between the lunar major and lunar liner,
877
00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:17.360
the lunar major and minor bracket the obajos with the
878
00:56:17.440 --> 00:56:19.639
sun sunset in the middle.
879
00:56:20.280 --> 00:56:23.280
So they chose the location to build there because of
880
00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:26.079
that herophony that's solar and lunar effect.
881
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:32.440
Yeah, and then can you see these are some of
882
00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:35.119
the building's structures out there. There's one right here as well.
883
00:56:35.840 --> 00:56:40.480
This is the bluestone site. This road comes in and
884
00:56:40.559 --> 00:56:43.559
it's actually intruded on by the bluestone site, which is
885
00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:47.639
pretty normal. This is a P three So the lightest
886
00:56:47.719 --> 00:56:51.440
great house out there is intruding on to this this alignment,
887
00:56:51.960 --> 00:56:57.679
and that alignment happens to be on the lunar minor
888
00:56:57.800 --> 00:57:03.039
moon set. So using Google Earth again, we can simulate
889
00:57:03.199 --> 00:57:06.519
lunar minor moon set, no moon rise, not moon set,
890
00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:11.079
and there it is. If we go over to where
891
00:57:11.119 --> 00:57:15.679
it's at, it's actually setting on a small peak over
892
00:57:15.760 --> 00:57:19.760
in the Laplatas, not a small peak, a large peak.
893
00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:23.599
So it's rising right up right as it would get up,
894
00:57:23.639 --> 00:57:25.559
it would sit right on top of that peak.
895
00:57:26.119 --> 00:57:31.800
So let's get back five minutes in the sense I
896
00:57:31.880 --> 00:57:35.079
asked you which came first, the lines or the buildings, Well,
897
00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:39.159
you've just demonstrated it was the visual alignment they saw
898
00:57:39.679 --> 00:57:44.599
and determined where to build. Mm hmmm hmm. The lines
899
00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:45.239
give first.
900
00:57:45.880 --> 00:57:51.880
Yeah, they're putting the buildings where they can where they
901
00:57:51.960 --> 00:57:56.880
can actually integrate all these alignments into one. Oh and oh,
902
00:57:57.159 --> 00:58:04.519
I forgot that that doorway that the sun would the
903
00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:10.320
solstice sunrise when a solstice sunrise would would be at
904
00:58:10.360 --> 00:58:15.239
the corner of that room. Uh, that doorway on Equinox
905
00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:20.320
is offset to the doorway behind it to where equinox
906
00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:24.039
sunrise creates a shaft of light going into the back room.
907
00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:27.079
It's a true liney solar temple.
908
00:58:29.079 --> 00:58:32.000
This is that original room block. That door is offset
909
00:58:32.079 --> 00:58:37.280
to that door. This is east west, so you'd create
910
00:58:37.320 --> 00:58:40.280
a shaft of light on that back window. And what's
911
00:58:40.360 --> 00:58:43.679
really interesting which makes me believe, yeah, this is all intentional,
912
00:58:44.199 --> 00:58:47.400
is when they added on these two rooms later, they
913
00:58:47.559 --> 00:58:51.719
kept that alleyway open. Yeah, there was no purpose blockage
914
00:58:51.880 --> 00:58:54.760
there purposely. Yeah. So if we go down to look
915
00:58:54.800 --> 00:59:01.239
at photo, so there we can see that equinox sunrise
916
00:59:01.400 --> 00:59:06.440
comes right through that opening to create that shaft on
917
00:59:06.599 --> 00:59:12.159
the back wall. Still so there, Yeah, they're this site.
918
00:59:12.360 --> 00:59:16.119
I mean it's small, so it's easily interpreted. It's it's
919
00:59:16.360 --> 00:59:22.199
capturing the sun, the moon, and the winter and summer
920
00:59:22.280 --> 00:59:28.440
solstice and equinox sunrise. So I mean it's pretty incredible
921
00:59:28.880 --> 00:59:34.000
as well as it's doing some things. This road, this
922
00:59:34.280 --> 00:59:38.960
road that comes down here that projects out to uh
923
00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:43.519
a saddle on Sleeping Ute Mountain where there's a spring.
924
00:59:44.280 --> 00:59:48.679
So they're they're they're tying all this together into into
925
00:59:48.800 --> 00:59:52.360
this one building on this lane, or this one complex,
926
00:59:52.440 --> 00:59:56.360
because that's actually articulating more with the great the Great
927
00:59:56.440 --> 00:59:59.719
Kilo than the great House. But it's all coming together
928
00:59:59.800 --> 01:00:00.719
in this one spot.
929
01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:05.159
Look at that road they've built to unite a spring. Yeah,
930
01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:13.000
showing a huge ritualization of water itself. Sure, or just
931
01:00:13.639 --> 01:00:15.480
a nice simple straight road for people to go and
932
01:00:15.519 --> 01:00:18.159
collect water. I suppose both.
933
01:00:19.320 --> 01:00:23.679
Yeah. Yeah, it's uh, yeah, it's pretty amazing stuff. That's
934
01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:26.440
what's been nice about being able to work both in
935
01:00:26.920 --> 01:00:30.559
in in Chocoate Canyon itself and outside of Charcoal Canyon
936
01:00:30.719 --> 01:00:34.679
these outliers is the outliers are are complex but simpler,
937
01:00:35.159 --> 01:00:39.760
where in Chaco things are just so overbuilt it's hard
938
01:00:39.800 --> 01:00:41.400
to figure out exactly what's going on.
939
01:00:41.639 --> 01:00:44.960
Sometimes, Rich, we've hit an hour and a half and
940
01:00:45.039 --> 01:00:47.360
I'd like to ask you something to wrap this up.
941
01:00:47.480 --> 01:00:50.360
And it's only come into my head this afternoon, and
942
01:00:50.440 --> 01:00:52.159
it's this off topic.
943
01:00:53.039 --> 01:00:54.599
Okay, six weeks.
944
01:00:54.360 --> 01:00:58.719
Ago, when the American media was a buzz with UFOs
945
01:00:58.960 --> 01:01:02.400
and advanced rushing drones super New Jersey, what went through
946
01:01:02.559 --> 01:01:05.840
your head because you're a drone guy and what thought
947
01:01:05.920 --> 01:01:06.760
what was in your mind?
948
01:01:10.159 --> 01:01:15.719
Department of Defense again, Yeah, that that same thing happened
949
01:01:15.719 --> 01:01:18.440
a few years ago in Colorado. There are all these
950
01:01:18.519 --> 01:01:25.199
drones nobody, nobody claimed responsibility, but they were all flying
951
01:01:26.239 --> 01:01:30.800
near where military installations were. So I think it's it's
952
01:01:30.920 --> 01:01:36.760
all probably some sort of test to see how this
953
01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:41.920
works to identify the drones and also can we can
954
01:01:42.039 --> 01:01:45.920
we thwart what they're doing type thing and nobody's going
955
01:01:46.000 --> 01:01:48.119
to talk about it because it's top secret stuff. So
956
01:01:48.440 --> 01:01:51.440
that that's exactly what I thought at the turn is Yeah,
957
01:01:51.960 --> 01:01:55.320
now this is Department of Defense doing testing. They aren't
958
01:01:55.320 --> 01:01:57.880
going to tell anybody. Nobody's going to know what. Everybody's
959
01:01:57.880 --> 01:02:01.039
going to freak out because and and what's in that area.
960
01:02:01.119 --> 01:02:04.519
There's a lot of military installations in the area that
961
01:02:04.559 --> 01:02:05.320
they were showing up.
962
01:02:05.360 --> 01:02:08.519
Okay, great, Rich listen, I should thank you very much
963
01:02:08.599 --> 01:02:10.199
for your time. You give us an hour and a
964
01:02:10.239 --> 01:02:11.199
half to go through.
965
01:02:11.119 --> 01:02:12.639
Your work, and we're welcome.
966
01:02:13.679 --> 01:02:15.480
It's going to be great. It's going to represent the
967
01:02:15.519 --> 01:02:18.559
first of these new visual episodes where people like yourself
968
01:02:18.639 --> 01:02:20.440
come on and actually share their work.
969
01:02:20.639 --> 01:02:21.519
I love that flow.
970
01:02:21.559 --> 01:02:24.280
We hit tonight where you were just falling into one
971
01:02:24.320 --> 01:02:26.880
piece after a time. I was not expecting you to
972
01:02:26.920 --> 01:02:28.760
show us the video with the maps at the end.
973
01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:32.280
That's what got it for me, brought it into a
974
01:02:32.360 --> 01:02:35.039
real sort of different light for me. Walter, how did
975
01:02:35.079 --> 01:02:35.400
you take it?
976
01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:40.920
Oh? It was wonderful. Appreciate the opportunity. Thanks for the invite,
977
01:02:40.960 --> 01:02:43.039
ash Great talking to you too, Rich.
978
01:02:43.320 --> 01:02:44.719
Yes, it is good to meet you.
979
01:02:44.880 --> 01:02:48.119
This is this is my passion. What it's not Ashley
980
01:02:48.159 --> 01:02:51.000
stressing me out to you take video of whatever? And
981
01:02:51.719 --> 01:02:53.280
I just you know, I just I just wanted to
982
01:02:53.320 --> 01:02:55.000
do him right. You know, that's all that matters to me.
983
01:02:55.440 --> 01:02:57.599
And I love GS. I saw you were using a
984
01:02:57.760 --> 01:03:00.760
global mapper. I shouldn't have said that because now I
985
01:03:00.800 --> 01:03:02.679
actually is gonna expect far more from me.
986
01:03:02.960 --> 01:03:07.320
So I've just done it these global mapp for two. Yeah. Yeah,
987
01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:10.920
it's it's my it's my Swiss army knife. It really is.
988
01:03:11.199 --> 01:03:12.320
Absolutely yeah.
989
01:03:12.800 --> 01:03:15.880
So yeah, it was great, great to see it is because,
990
01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:18.880
like I say, this is my passion. I I do
991
01:03:19.000 --> 01:03:22.360
it for various reasons. Astley looks at it for alignments.
992
01:03:22.480 --> 01:03:24.719
I look at it for other things. Actually knows what
993
01:03:24.840 --> 01:03:28.519
those things are. You do it for alignments as well,
994
01:03:28.679 --> 01:03:31.519
Rich and it's it's a good perspective. It's a good
995
01:03:32.199 --> 01:03:35.320
different context for me. And if anything, you've helped me
996
01:03:35.960 --> 01:03:39.599
understand where Ashley is coming from. Whenever he starts spouting
997
01:03:39.639 --> 01:03:41.440
out all this this is the line, but blah blah blah,
998
01:03:41.519 --> 01:03:43.360
It's like, dude, I really don't care.
999
01:03:43.400 --> 01:03:44.960
I just want to know where it goes to what's
1000
01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:46.519
at the end of it. That's all I care about.
1001
01:03:50.199 --> 01:03:51.760
I didn't even see it to you. But when he's
1002
01:03:51.840 --> 01:03:53.400
when those maps come up, and he was showing you
1003
01:03:53.599 --> 01:03:56.039
when you asked, what was the lunar maximum A minimum?
1004
01:03:56.360 --> 01:03:58.039
Because I see, I'll maybe see it to Walter, like
1005
01:03:58.280 --> 01:04:02.960
I know that this truck here this and Dianhill Temple
1006
01:04:03.039 --> 01:04:06.480
points to that menton because it's on the lunar max
1007
01:04:06.519 --> 01:04:09.599
and Walter will see tell me where to fly the
1008
01:04:09.719 --> 01:04:13.559
droom and I will fly it. And I'm like, okay, yeah.
1009
01:04:13.599 --> 01:04:17.159
That's right, Yeah, just just do that. But then but
1010
01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:19.159
then what your what your maps didn't.
1011
01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:23.039
Dude, kudos to your maps were wonderful because that draws
1012
01:04:23.159 --> 01:04:26.599
me out, that gives me the bigger picture. Ashley is
1013
01:04:26.719 --> 01:04:29.880
so intimate with this. He is so he knows all
1014
01:04:29.920 --> 01:04:32.440
the nit noid things, and I just I don't have
1015
01:04:32.599 --> 01:04:35.440
those nitoid things to put all the pieces together. But
1016
01:04:35.559 --> 01:04:37.639
you know, over time I'm doing all this stuff with him,
1017
01:04:37.639 --> 01:04:40.079
and I'm mapping out where we're going and where things
1018
01:04:40.119 --> 01:04:40.760
are all pointing.
1019
01:04:41.159 --> 01:04:42.760
It's coming together, you know.
1020
01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:45.039
But your map was just wonderful and how you had
1021
01:04:45.079 --> 01:04:47.000
all that stuff just overview.
1022
01:04:47.119 --> 01:04:47.679
It was great.
1023
01:04:47.760 --> 01:04:49.719
It was wonderful. I might be contacting you for some
1024
01:04:49.840 --> 01:04:52.880
pointers whenever I do maps for Ashley.
1025
01:04:53.159 --> 01:04:54.639
You know, and that, you know, that was the other thing.
1026
01:04:56.280 --> 01:04:59.119
I started remote sensing, doing spectral analysis things like that,
1027
01:04:59.239 --> 01:05:01.719
and then I got the Air Force contacted me up
1028
01:05:01.719 --> 01:05:04.960
because I do have experience with that. And you know,
1029
01:05:05.239 --> 01:05:08.400
the just the simple path, the different vegetation, that is
1030
01:05:08.440 --> 01:05:11.119
a just a wonderful example.
1031
01:05:10.719 --> 01:05:14.320
Of well, just you know, automate the automate all this stuff.
1032
01:05:14.320 --> 01:05:16.360
I don't believe in automating everything because I like to
1033
01:05:16.400 --> 01:05:18.199
go place, I like to get I like to get dirty,
1034
01:05:18.199 --> 01:05:20.119
I like to get in the field. But there's so
1035
01:05:20.280 --> 01:05:24.519
much there's so many automation processes these days that you
1036
01:05:24.559 --> 01:05:26.880
can find out so much. I'm not saying so much more.
1037
01:05:26.960 --> 01:05:30.239
I think you can find out things quicker than if
1038
01:05:30.280 --> 01:05:33.039
you were on the ground, but I'll still be the
1039
01:05:33.079 --> 01:05:34.519
first of all with Curry to go off the ground.
1040
01:05:34.599 --> 01:05:37.719
So yeah, yeah, being on the ground is fun. That's
1041
01:05:37.840 --> 01:05:41.320
that's what it's really acting. Yeah, there there, you experience
1042
01:05:41.400 --> 01:05:43.519
it absolutely.
1043
01:05:44.199 --> 01:05:47.480
Because it's a fallacy to think that everything exists on
1044
01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:50.599
a screen. These are at this very abstract thing. To
1045
01:05:50.719 --> 01:05:53.159
have a hell or a building on a screen in
1046
01:05:53.239 --> 01:05:55.880
front of us, Oh yeah, we've come for a long
1047
01:05:55.960 --> 01:05:58.079
long time where the field is real.
1048
01:05:58.920 --> 01:05:59.360
Mm hmm.
1049
01:06:00.199 --> 01:06:03.559
I've got more almost from five minutes on your photograph
1050
01:06:03.639 --> 01:06:06.000
of the sun setting behind that mountain and seeing the
1051
01:06:06.599 --> 01:06:09.920
vegetative change than I did, or equally as much as
1052
01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:12.599
I did from the fly rounds of Kivas. It's a
1053
01:06:13.039 --> 01:06:16.559
fascinating visual to see the alignment in a photograph.
1054
01:06:17.480 --> 01:06:20.519
H I enjoyed it immensely, That's all there is to it.
1055
01:06:20.719 --> 01:06:23.320
Yeah, I did too. It was fun, great Rich, Thank
1056
01:06:23.360 --> 01:06:24.239
you very much. Indeed,