Julia Bodwell: Hey reader, welcome back to another episode. I'm your host, Julia Bodible, and joining me today is Paul Gott. Katcha? I'm sorry. We'll start we'll start over. I'm gonna start over. Katya. Katya. We can leave it in. Okay.
Paul Coccia: I never correct anyone and you got it right. No, you got it right and I never correct anyone. We should leave it at
Julia Bodwell: Well you you did tell me it's like it's like gotcha, right?
Paul Coccia: Yeah.
Julia Bodwell: okay. So Paul Katya. And he is an author, a very talented author, and thank you so much, Paul, for joining me today. I'm excited to to see you again virtually, of course, through through a screen. and I know obviously you know how we met because you were there. But I just I love sharing this story. So I wanna tell our listeners a little bit about the first time we met because it's just one of my favorite stories from being in this industry. and it was I think it was twenty twenty four, right? 'Cause your book came out, recommended reading came out in twenty twenty five. And so you're like w you're like whatever you say, Julia. So
Paul Coccia: Your sense of time is so much better than mine. I'm like Yes, it was sure.
Julia Bodwell: I just remember so that was my first time attending Children's Institute, which is put on annually by the American Booksellers Association for those That don't know what that is. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: My first thing too.
Julia Bodwell: was it was your first time too? That's awesome. So I was just like beyond excited when your publisher actually invited me. Like they sent me an email and they're like, We're inviting you to a publisher dinner to celebrate Paul Coccia and his book recommended reading. And I was like, never heard of it, but I can't wait to read it. Like downloaded, you know, the E Arc, was reading it on the plane. I'm like, I'm gonna have this thing read at least somewhat, you know, before I meet this author, and like And then they gave us a copy too, so we got a physical book as well. And, you know, I was just like fangirling, like, my gosh, there he is, he's sitting at the table and he's gonna come around and sign my book and of course I was just so awkward and I knocked my chair over. twice actually. Twice.
Paul Coccia: See and okay, in my memory, I was like, No, no, don't worry about it and I knocked it over. So we can argue about it.
Julia Bodwell: You knocked it over. I feel like that I feel like that's very Canadian of you to just be like, I'm sorry, it's my fault. But I'm pretty sure I did it. I don't think it even matters at this point. I just love the fact that like the chair fell over twice and we both were just like apologizing for something that neither of us really did. Yep, she apologized to the chair, actually. the chair fell over and she apologized to it. So I thought that was great. So it was just
Paul Coccia: And Julie Murphy was there. And Yep.
Julia Bodwell: just Probably my favorite memory of that whole event and just like one of my favorite memories like of all time. So thanks for letting me be awkward and for joining me on this call so we could be awkward together.
Paul Coccia: You weren't awkward at all. the one part you did leave out is we were in New Orleans, which I'm sure I'm sure
Julia Bodwell: We were. We were.
Paul Coccia: I said it wrong as a Canadian 'cause I have a friend whose son in law is from Louisiana and they're
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: like she always corrects me. She's like, You're supposed to say it like this. I'm like, No, not when you're Canadian.
Julia Bodwell: Yep. You can say it however you want. and actually th the reason that I went to that one is because my brother lives in New Or we say New Orleans, but I think New Orleans is fine too, you know. It there's there's no wrong way to say it. and so I was like, Well that
Paul Coccia: I guess.
Julia Bodwell: that makes sense. I'll go because he lives there, I can stay with him and that was why I had all my stuff with me and it was like my chair got too heavy 'cause all my bags. I'm like, I'm not staying in the hotel, so I have to bring it all back to my brother's house and and then the chair fell over on you, so
Paul Coccia: I I don't know if people know this, but when you're brought there by a publisher, and Xando who is the publisher of recommended reading is great, so it's not a complaint, but you are on they flew you there. You're there as like an asset of theirs, in some ways. So there was one morning where I snuck away to go walk down Bourbon Street, but was early in the morning
Julia Bodwell: Ooh.
Paul Coccia: and I was just stepping over people who are obviously in a bad way.
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha ha ha.
Paul Coccia: And I thought there was a point where I go, I've gone too far, it's starting to get very scary. and I'm also looking at signs and going, Girls, girls, girls, all of them are just eighteen. What how would they have this many eighteen year olds in one city? so
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. I I I don't wanna know. I don't wanna know.
Paul Coccia: And then I walk towards the Mississippi and I was so excited, I'm like, it's like Huckleberry Finn. I'm like, you
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: don't get this sense of the s the scale of the Mississippi from reading it in a book.
Julia Bodwell: No, it's it's quite vast. had that was that your first time that you'd been to New Orleans? Yeah, okay.
Paul Coccia: Yeah. So I was very excited and I'm like, I'm gonna eat I think I ate four or five different types of beignet. And I was like
Julia Bodwell: Okay. Yeah, you have to eat all the things when you go there.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, and I drank the chicory coffee and I ate the pralines. I'm like, whatever I can get that's supposed to the things you're supposed to do, I'm like, I'm gonna do it. And I saw a hor a band on the street. I was so excited, I'm like, Wow, this is great.
Julia Bodwell: You did all of So yeah, so my gosh, the music there, th the food and the music. It's like that's why you go there, you know? And and of course the the drunken debauchery that you find on Bourbon Street and and the craziness. I guess they're one of the few places I don't know what it's like in Canada, but they're one of the few places in the US where you can like they have open container laws. So you could just walk around with your drink anywhere. Like h here in Florida
Paul Coccia: That's cool.
Julia Bodwell: you can't leave the bar with your drink. Like you have to stay in
Paul Coccia: Yeah.
Julia Bodwell: the establishment. So, I don't know how different that is, if it's the same or
Paul Coccia: No, it's the same, but I I think there must be people who do it with a paper bag on. Very classy.
Julia Bodwell: They're like, I got my bag, you can't tell what's in here.
Paul Coccia: So it's like yeah, we're not supposed to, but I'm sure people do.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Well, just like anything, you know, people do what they're not supposed to do. But so tell us a little bit more about recommended reading. I I love recommending that as reading. Like it's just it's silly to say that way, but it's such a great story. I loved the characters so much. how did you come up with that story?
Paul Coccia: Well, Okay, so it's kind of interesting and I guess this is part of that will be insider information for people who don't
Julia Bodwell: Yes.
Paul Coccia: know what an IP project is. So an intellectual property. So Julie Murphy started a company called Bittersweet Books. Julie's amazing. Let's just start there. She wrote Duncan.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: For those who don't know, we could go on for an hour about like a j we love Julie Murphy podcast, but that's not why we're here. so she started a company and and I was the first book in the first hire, but I answered a tweet. I didn't know it was
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: I didn't know anything about bittersweet. and I went through a process where it was like we have an idea. We're looking for a fat, queer male presenting author and I was like, It's me
Julia Bodwell: You're like, here I am.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, and I'm and I've been quietly working at this up in Canada where fat fat positivity and the politics around body politics and weight aren't as far as the US. We have
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: we just haven't had as many conversations and it hasn't been around as long. I've been asked once by a teen reader in an interview about the fact that the characters in my books are fat quite often. And I thought that's crazy. In Canada we're afraid to say the word fat. we're not afraid to say other things, but that one we don't touch. on because God forbid we offend someone.
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha ha.
Paul Coccia: so I answer this, I'm like, you've been looking for me.
Julia Bodwell: It's me, I'm here.
Paul Coccia: and so I went through a series of interviews and I had to do a written sample of the work. So the chapter where Bobby meets Gladys is his first day working at the bookstore. is almo there's things that had to change as I got to know more of the project. But that was my audition piece. So
Julia Bodwell: Okay. Wow.
Paul Coccia: I really did audition to write this and then Julie hired me, along with her team and at Bittersweet, and then they sold it to Zando. So I worked with T J Oler who was great to work with. Xando's really good at publicity and promo. So when they invited everyone there I was like, this is like so classy. We get to have a dinner to celebrate a book. and they have
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. That and
Paul Coccia: Okay.
Julia Bodwell: that was the first time I'd ever been to something like that. So I'm like, this is very classy. Like I'm I felt special being invited because not everyone got to go to that dinner.
Paul Coccia: and I dressed well that day. I remember that. I'm like
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha ha.
Paul Coccia: I purposely packed knowing it would be hot and I'm like, Julie always dresses well, her team always dresses well. I have to bring my like and I was having coffee with my editor before the dinner and I just looked at my watch and I go, I'm sorry, I have to go iron and he looked at me and goes, You're gonna go
Julia Bodwell: It's time.
Paul Coccia: iron? I'm like Julie always looks good. I can't show up looking like a slob. So the whole I'm not
Julia Bodwell: She sets the bar high.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, so the whole idea really was Julie's idea, and she very cleverly their team named it Recommended Reading because they said no matter how bad the review is, they must call it Recommended Reading. Genius.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: So they had this idea for this fat, gay bookseller who's kind of he's got a book for every situation. and it was in part an ode to indie booksellers, which I love about the book and the book lovers and to romance. and that was interesting because as my mother said to me, you're not romantic at all, so I don't understand how you did this. Well
Julia Bodwell: You're like, I'll show you.
Paul Coccia: I I even phoned my ex who I was gang back together with and we are back together now which romance readers apparently love second chance in a book but not in real life. Well not in real life.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. that's a great trope. Everyone loves that trope. No.
Paul Coccia: I've said it to roups of romance readers they're like What? You're getting back with him? No. And I'm like, you haven't
Julia Bodwell: Mm.
Paul Coccia: heard him. You don't know him. You don't know his life.
Julia Bodwell: You don't know you don't know the situation. You don't know you don't know our vibe.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, maybe I just want to make the same mistake twice. Who knows?
Julia Bodwell: Hey, and that's up to you to to to decide, you know, if you want to make that or not.
Paul Coccia: Well I phoned him after my mum said this. She goes she literally put down the book and goes, that was you finally wrote something nice. And I went
Julia Bodwell: Well, okay, what does that mean?
Paul Coccia: Noah I'm like, that's the greatest compliment 'cause it's a backhanded insult too.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: and then she goes, I don't know how you did this. You're not romantic and I go, How would you know? And she goes, You're like your father
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha ha.
Paul Coccia: Wow. So I phoned my ex and I'm like, My mum says I wasn't wrong. He's like, Well he's like, in fairness
Julia Bodwell: no.
Paul Coccia: And I'm like, What do you mean in fairness? He's like, Well, I never bought a pair of shoes when we were together 'cause you knew my size and my brands. He's like and you always found a good sale. He's like, but like you wouldn't like go out and buy a bunch of flowers and like have the house filled with flowers. I'm like, Well that's a waste of money, isn't it?
Julia Bodwell: It is. And I feel like knowing someone's shoe size or like, you their their shirt size, like you saw something out and you're like, they would like this. I'm gonna get this for them. Like that's romantic. It doesn't always have to be flowers, you know?
Paul Coccia: Yeah. Well, I'd rather cook for someone. I'm like I can when we first met and I I invited him for dinner and I was like, I'm laying a trap, I'm cooking for you.
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha.
Paul Coccia: And I'm not making like my mum's side which is English. I'm like I'm not making English food and we're going my dad's side, which is Italian.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: and we're pulling out all the pasta like you're gonna be too fat at the end of this to run. That's the goal here. Fill you with pasta and bread. Yeah.
Julia Bodwell: I'm gonna slow you down. That's a great that's a great plan. Like you'll be you'll be too full, you won't be able to get away. I love that.
Paul Coccia: It's like Olive Garden, which we're just getting back in Canada. We used to have
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: it. It died like Target died here. And now they're trying to reintroduce it. I'm like
Julia Bodwell: They're trying to bring it back.
Paul Coccia: and I'm like, if you don't have the wheelie chairs, what are you even doing?
Julia Bodwell: I do feel like Olive Garden has died here in the US too. Like I don't really remember the last time I've seen an Olive Garden. So now I'll have to do a deep dive. Like why where did what happened to Olive Garden? Like where'd it go? Where are the breadsticks? The breadsticks, the
Paul Coccia: Where are the breadsticks? What are you doing with all those extra breadsticks?
Julia Bodwell: endless breadsticks and and soup and salad. Like, you know, and you get the dipping sauce for the breadsticks. I'm gluten
Paul Coccia: I
Julia Bodwell: free now though, so I can't eat those breadsticks. But I remember there was a time where I would just cr that like you would go there, you just eat the soup, salad and the breadsticks. That was your dinner.
Paul Coccia: Do you make your own breads now?
Julia Bodwell: gosh, no, I I'm don't cook. I'm a terrible terrible cook. You don't want anything that I I make. I will do the dishes though. That's the deal. My husband he cooks and I do the dishes. Like if we go to our friend's house, she's an amazing chef. She loves to cook. I'm just like, you just tell me when it's time for the dishes and I'm I'm in the kitchen doing Like that's I hate cooking with a passion, like, more than I hate anything. I'm just not good at it. And it I I just want to I wanna
Paul Coccia: Well I love it.
Julia Bodwell: eat the food. I want someone to make it for me and then I eat it and then I'll do the dishes. That's like my
Paul Coccia: I mean that's a pretty good trade off.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, so it's like as long as someone else doesn't mind doing the cooking, I don't mind doing the dishes. Like that doesn't bother me.
Paul Coccia: That's a great trade off though, 'cause it's just like, well I can make a mess then. Yeah.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I and I don't like the mess. Like I don't like making the mess. I don't mind cleaning up the mess. Like like the tidying part. That's that's my personality. It's like I have to clean it all up. I can't make the mess, I have to clean the mess. So
Paul Coccia: That would work well.
Julia Bodwell: do you make your own bread?
Paul Coccia: Well, yeah. I j I actually made some today that was a fail. I tried to make Korean condensed milk bread because I'm
Julia Bodwell: Okay. What what is that?
Paul Coccia: it's a very light and fluffy white bread, but then
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: you brush the top there must there's condensed milk in the recipe I used, but you drizzle the top with condensed milk so it creates like a layer of that sticky condensed milk goodness.
Julia Bodwell: Okay. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: My nephew loves and I keep buying it from this Korean French bakery up near my brother's house. But it's like seven dollars every time I buy a tiny little loaf of it. So I'm like, I'm gonna learn to make it. It didn't work out well. I th I showed you the recipe
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Just learn how to make it, yeah. no. Was this the first time you made it?
Paul Coccia: Yeah. The parts that cooked
Julia Bodwell: And it didn't go well.
Paul Coccia: well the parts that cooked were good. The parts that didn't cook were don't eat that.
Julia Bodwell: n no. Well, hey, I mean, first try, I feel like y you got halfway there, so that's not a total fail.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, I I tried, I'll try again.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your newest book, The Bear Fairy, because I'm just I'm so intrigued by this because you've written a bunch of novels. So why did you transition to picture books? And can we expect more from you? What's going on here?
Paul Coccia: Okay, so I love like whenever people say to me what kind of writer are you, I'm like my heart has YA. If you threw me
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: up in the air and you I landed, I'd land on the YA side. I'd love it. but I've done quite a few middle grade because I could get work there. and that's part of it. It's I I can work in this area, so I'm going to figure out how to do this. and as when you get to working an area you I think you develop a love of it. Or maybe y some people don't. They're like, I hate middle grade. I will never do that again.
Julia Bodwell: There's like this is what I'm good at. I mean I guess I have to do this.
Paul Coccia: And it's interesting what you learn about because you have to become more attuned to the age group. but I was joking with a friend of mine, Heather Smith, who's a brilliant Canadian writer. She's w just won the Governor General Award, which is our biggest literary award last year. and she's she's brilliant. She's just a great author. Her stuff is if you read it, like The Agony of Bun O'Keefe is probably her most well known, I would say. you will get back to me and be like, I loved it, I was laughing, and I was crying. And I'm like, yeah, Heather has the ability to do that.
Julia Bodwell: Just all the emotions.
Paul Coccia: And to really just get right into the core of the character and it resonates with you. So she's just very talented. So during the pandemic we were joking that I was like, you know, I'm a bear, like a gay bear, and I'm a fairy. And my mum's side, being English, has fairy lore in it. My dad's side surprisingly has his town is known as the town of the fairies in Italy.
Julia Bodwell: wow.
Paul Coccia: And they have a yearly fairy festival and it's not your typical Tinkerbell, who is actually a pixie, by the way.
Julia Bodwell: You're like just to just to clarify.
Paul Coccia: Just to clarify, she's a pixie, so she's a bit more impish than a a fairy might be. But There are these scary fairies that my dad has where it's women who have these long dresses that cover their their cloven hooves and they dance wildly and lure the men away. So joking with Heather, I drew a doodle of a very fat, hairy guy with a beard, and then the legs of a bear and little fairy wings, and I sent it off to her and she goes, Well, that's a book, go and write it.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, yeah.
Paul Coccia: Okay, if Heather tells you to write a book, you do it. She's very accomplished, so I tried to write it. and it wouldn't be anything other than a picture book. So I was like, I know it's a picture book. and if you ask me how I know I go, it just doesn't I can't extend the story enough into a novel. Or I can't extend it enough into an early reader even. So I knew it had to be a picture book, which is a problem because I don't think I'm naturally a picture book writer.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: And so I kept working and I tried to tell in a very traditional way, which is here's the narrative and I'll use dialogue and he said and then he said and it sucked. Like if I'm being completely honest. It was really terrible. and so I rewrote it kind of like I would a play. And it was originally all dialogue. And my editor who became my editor, she's brilliant, her name is Margot and she was worked for Marvel. So she saw and she went, I'm interested, but it's a lo it's all dialogue and it's all illustrator notes, so the concern was how much control do you want over the illustrator? And I was none, you're not paying me to do that.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. You're like, that's not my forte.
Paul Coccia: Well, I was like, if you pay me to do it, I guess that's my job, but you're not paying me to do that. I was paid to write it. So she looked at and she was like, Yeah, we'll work on it together. I think this has a lot of promise and we went back and forth. So the The main structure was there and it was then tweaking. a picture book is different than a novel because you go in so many times and touch the same limited amount of words, whereas a novel, realistically you can only do that so many times in the time frames that publishers give you. and you can't rev I guess some people do revise ten, twenty, thirty times. I lose track of how many revisions get done because I revise as I go, so I never know.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Do you find that that makes it easier for your writing overall, like to kind of revise as you go? Has that always been your process?
Paul Coccia: Well and maybe you want to answer this too. I know that when something isn't good. Like I knew those first drafts of the Bear Fairy were not good. But was almost like let's get the garbage out of the way and then when you've eliminated what you think is the right course of action, you'll figure out what the correct course of action is. Yeah. You just kinda get get the garbage out. It's like okay, clean house
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. You might as well just get it out right now while while it's there, you know, you know it's gotta go. I like that.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, and I and there's drafts I will never show even my closest friends. I go, These are bad. I know they're bad. I don't need someone to tell me they're bad. I'm very aware.
Julia Bodwell: But that's the purpose of a draft. I mean, it's not supposed to be polished and and perfect right out of the gate. You know, anyone that can write that way, I'm in awe of. I don't think I've met anyone that can do that. that's that's the point of a draft. It's like nobody has to see this. It does not have to see the light of day, no one has to know it exists, no one has to know how terrible it was, you know. It's just as long as the final draft, the finished manuscript, that's good, that's polished, people are gonna like that. That's all that matters.
Paul Coccia: And you like you do know when it's not good, but you also know like this has promise. This I can work with. This is there's material here that I can use. so like With Bobby, for recommended reading, he was interesting because I had to jump into that character so quickly. I didn't I'm a character driven author. So I always start with character first and I figure them out and then the story kind of flows because I know how they react to certain situations and I I can move them around in but they when the character is well developed I find that they tell me what they want done. So the poor attitude.
Julia Bodwell: They speak to you. The
Paul Coccia: Yeah, so TJ at one point
Julia Bodwell: voices in your head.
Paul Coccia: said something, me goes, Could you try this? I'm like, Bobby would never do that. And it was like this very
Julia Bodwell: Bobby wouldn't.
Paul Coccia: I'm like, he just wouldn't. And he's Well, why? I'm like, it is not his personality. what
Julia Bodwell: You just know when y when you know you know.
Paul Coccia: well the suggestion was he's like he can match make Luke. I'm like, he would never So
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: when I was presented with the character and to jump into it quickly, I had to choose a point of reference, and my point of reference was Emma. But Emma via Clueless.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: So I was like, he's got a l that sense of benevolence that he always knows best, but he also means really well. But he's can be a bit overbearing in like my way or the highway.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Which I mean I I think that was part of the reason why, you know, at least for me, why I loved him so much. Like he just he was just such a great personality, you know, as a character. Like he really came to life on the page. So
Paul Coccia: And there's a little bit of a forced optimism with him, I find, in his character. So he was always like, Things are gonna work out and like
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Which I love that we need we all need a bobby like in our lives, whether it's you just from the page or like, you know, you have someone that that is that for you. It's like not everything is gonna be doom and gloom, you know. So have have a little bit of optimism.
Paul Coccia: You in earlier Yeah, in earlier drafts he was much more melancholic I would he so he
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: was sad. Like i the novel begins and I had to argue for the prologue. prologues people do not like for some like I know why they don't like them. They don't like them because often they're extraneous information. You don't need it in the book. the author wrote it to get into the story, but you don't actually need it and I'm going,
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: in this case the reader needs the information in the prologue. Events happen before the novel starts that the reader needs to see in real time. Otherwise I've cheated the reader.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: but there was a lot of hesitancy around it. So it came down to and when you're working with a team, it's you have to negotiate somewhat what you want versus what they want for a project. So I was let me try it. If it's not good, we'll get rid of it. So
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: but in the early drafts he had just had his heart broken by himself, which is one of the hardest types of heartbreak I think is when you you don't have someone else to blame.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, you can't blame anybody else.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, so he was and the the editor read it and he goes, he's a bit sad, isn't he? I'm like, Well, yeah. He's just broken his own heart and
Julia Bodwell: Obviously
Paul Coccia: of course he's gonna be sad and he goes, Well can't you make him more upbeat? And going, guess I'm gonna have to Yeah, and
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, I guess this is you telling me I have to do that.
Paul Coccia: so my and it worked for the character, so the the editor's instincts were on. But I had to give that sense of optimism where the reader could see through it and see it as a bit of an act, which means I also had to take the melancholy and turn that into a bit of a drama. And it's like, okay, we're dealing with a dramatic personality here.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. he was very dramatic, but like in all the best ways. I mean s this is like over the top about everything, which I loved. I just loved that.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, well I love the part at the beginning where he's like I have the Danish disease
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha
Paul Coccia: and I'm like book lovers will get it. And
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. And I just love how like he he was the book matchmaker. Like he could match you up with what you needed in that moment. And I as a bookseller I strive like to to be more like Bobby, you know, like I wanna be like Bobby when I grow up.
Paul Coccia: Well and there was these there was a moment when I think her name I don't remember what her name became. I'm terrible with character names. But it was the the widow. I think her name
Julia Bodwell: I c I couldn't tell you. That w how how how many years ago did I read this, Paul? I can't remember. I can't remember what I ate for breakfast yesterday. I don't know. That just means
Paul Coccia: About how many how many years ago did I write it? I don't remember. But her name changed. So I remember at one point her name was
Julia Bodwell: that listeners have to go read the book and find out for themselves. So it's a fabulous book.
Paul Coccia: I think it was I think it was Christie at one point.
Julia Bodwell: I I couldn't tell you. I could only remember the main characters. That's as far that's
Paul Coccia: One there's this
Julia Bodwell: as far as my brain will allow me to remember, but Don't you have a copy? W I don't even know I don't know where my copy is. I don't have my copy, I'm sorry. I should have like had it with me so I could hold it up. Cause you signed it for me and everything, and it's like it's in a special place on my shelf.
Paul Coccia: well, you write a my copy's over here. It's in a it's in a hold on a second. So I have mine in my beautiful bittersweet from Julie Book Cozy. and usually this is the one that I just show this is like the display.
Julia Bodwell: This is like your display. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, so there it is. But usually on the back I put a post-it with my character names. So if I have to present to
Julia Bodwell: So pretty. I love the cover. Mm-hmm. Okay. It's like a little cheat sheet.
Paul Coccia: a school, I just hold it up and I'm like, Yeah, here's like and I just so I do put cheat sheets on the back, which I
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: told kids to and I show kids when I go to schools, which isn't often, but I'm like, here's what I do and I'm like, So if you have to do a presentation, you really are stuck, you can put your cue cards on the back here.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. We we don't have to we're not expected to remember everything in our brains. And like you said, you I mean you've you've written a lot of stories, so I'm sure the characters after a while, especially like some of the minor characters, probably you know, you lo you lose parts of them. You lose what was their name again? You know, what so I love that.
Paul Coccia: And especially when you're you're suggested by a publishing house or an editor, change the name and then you go, Well, I knew them as I knew them as this name, so I have no idea what their name is anymore. I changed it for the
Julia Bodwell: I don't know who they are now.
Paul Coccia: sake of changing it, but don't ask me what their name is. But no.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. So with with your publisher, how much like control did you get to retain for either either for recommended reading for any of the books really? and how much do you have to kind of relinquish control? Like do they get to dis have final say on?
Paul Coccia: So there's things that I w I don't have control over, like the cover.
Julia Bodwell: Okay. So you didn't have any say in that?
Paul Coccia: N I d Xando was great and Penguin Random House was great, but up until that point it's always been stock images that have been used, so and y this is not a kids podcast, so I can tell this story.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: my first book tub and I have it one second, I'll pull it up so you can see the cover. there it is. So it was my first book and I was told, We hope you like the cover because if you don't, that's it. it was very
Julia Bodwell: That's too bad.
Paul Coccia: nicely done, but it was like, We hope you like it, but if you don't, that's the cover either way. And I went, it's okay, but you know, he's kind of thin on the cover. and then a few months later I get tagged on Twitter in a post and I'm looking at the guy who's tagged me, I'm going, That's a very revealing photo So I look at his profile and he's an adult film star and he's I'm on the cover of a book. And Isn't that who is on the cover of a book? and I happen to
Julia Bodwell: wow.
Paul Coccia: so I was like, this is amazing. Like who else
Julia Bodwell: I love that for you.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, who else with a debut novel can say that this is like a kid's novel? This is who's on the cover.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. my gosh.
Paul Coccia: and my grand was actually dying in the cancer hospital in Toronto and I went there
Julia Bodwell: old Paul.
Paul Coccia: and I say to her, You won't believe what happened. My grand was
Julia Bodwell: Did you tell her the story?
Paul Coccia: Yes, my grand was very modern. so she's like, Bring it up, I wanna see photos. So I brought up photos on
Julia Bodwell: That's awesome. I love her.
Paul Coccia: Instagram and she goes, Great ass So and didn't I need that?
Julia Bodwell: And it's like y you had no idea until after the fact like the book was already out and then you're like, What am I getting tagged, dog? What is this?
Paul Coccia: Well and then I went to the gay bookstore and they're like, Don't you know who he is? He's actually rather famous. I'm like, No, it's not an area of expertise for me. Yeah, they're like
Julia Bodwell: Like, what do you mean, Paul? You don't know who this is? my gosh. So they knew who it was?
Paul Coccia: they knew who he was. And then I met him and wasn't he the nicest guy? He's actually a trained chef who was on Chopped and the book is around a cooking competition.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: And I went, This is cool. And he so he said to me, Actually, I think this book will is good for teens. He goes, and you got a lot of the information accurate to how a cooking competition would run. And I went, That's cool that he's given the standard approval.
Julia Bodwell: wow. That's im that's like a compliment to come from him.
Paul Coccia: He was on Chopped and he was a stand-in for on Chopped for many years, trained chef, gone to adult. He's now retired. And I'm like, ooh, he's retired. and he's a train chef, he's a great guy and has a last I heard, a Joshua Tree Sanctuary in Palm Springs Deserts.
Julia Bodwell: wow.
Paul Coccia: So he's doing a lot of good stuff for the planet. I'm like, You're cool
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. You're like, I'm proud to have you on my book cover.
Paul Coccia: I was proud just you know, I guess other people might not be happy, but I thought this really fits with what I was going for, which is I'm I tend to write characters who are sexually empowered and there's a sex positivity that comes along with that.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: and I thought this is perfect for this book. th I hope the publisher doesn't pull it, which they did not. Or it's or
Julia Bodwell: Okay, good. Did they did they find out about it?
Paul Coccia: I told my editor because I said, Am I allowed to talk about this? And she said, I wouldn't recommend it on children's stuff, but for adults, yeah, it's cool.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Okay. I think that's a great story. Like what a great anecdote for your career. It's just like, you know, a happy
Paul Coccia: Yeah, and then every
Julia Bodwell: a happy accident.
Paul Coccia: every cover after that you're like, disappointment. Non-adult
Julia Bodwell: This is like you'll ne it'll never live up to that one again.
Paul Coccia: But actually so recommended reading I I was consulted quite a bit and one of the things that readers have loved is the cover being on the cover of the book the characters are holding. And that that was T J.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, I love that. It's like a little Easter egg.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, that was T J, the editor. He was let's put the cover of the book on the cover and I went It's one of the things readers have liked the most. The colors were Julie's suggestion. I don't know what I added to the other than Yeah, well other than when they originally
Julia Bodwell: I mean you wrote the thing, so
Paul Coccia: the sketches came back, I was Where's his love hand? Like, let's give him some curves. that's I did add that. I was if we're gonna put
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Okay. Well he's a curvy boy.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, I'm like if we're gonna write about a fat character, let's actually depict a fat character on the cover.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: So is I hope he gets a few curves. I hope he gets a booty.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. I thought it was a great cover. And then what about with the Bear Fairy? Were you consulted at all of that? Or was that kind of up to the illustrator?
Paul Coccia: I was consulted but the illustrator and the editor Margot and Fred, Fred Blunt is the illustrator, they had come up with this reminiscent of Tinkerbell doing the Disney ping.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: and they go, We don't can't have it too close that Disney will sue us
Julia Bodwell: It has to be just different enough that it's not we're not trying to rip them off.
Paul Coccia: So they wanted a very title forward cover and they presented it to me at the the end of it and I w they were like, What do you think? I'm like, Well, I like it, so I don't have notes. and Fred's a great illustrator, so I don't have anything to tell him. I don't want to tell him how to do his job.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Now was he someone that your publisher brought in or did you kind of already know him beforehand?
Paul Coccia: No, so they kept us separate, which is very typical at least of Canadian publishers for picture books.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: The author and illustrator, even if they know one another, typically aren't supposed to talk. there are exceptions where sometimes it's a personal story and the illustrator might need more info. but it came out of I just sent an email to the the publisher saying I was reading something that had those old British style cartoons drawings. And she goes, I know who we're gonna get for to illustrate the book. So it was all her vision. She was
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: I know who's gonna do it. there was a point when the illustrations came back, she goes, I'm so sorry. We're supposed to do limited palette. So for anyone who doesn't know a limited palette means, you choose like four or five colors and that's the all you'll
Julia Bodwell: That's it.
Paul Coccia: see in a book. So Good Night Moon has a limited palette.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: I think it's One Snowy Day is the correct title, the book where it's a limited palette because
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: it costs so much in those days. so those are
Julia Bodwell: Is that why they would trip typically do that? It was just for printing costs?
Paul Coccia: Back in the day, but also now it's become a a thing where it's it's a style. So they came
Julia Bodwell: It's like a style choice. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: back and it was full colour and they go, We're so sorry it's full colour. Fred thought this was best. I'm like, Of course it's best. It's
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, look at it. I I couldn't see that being a limited palette. Like I don't think that would work. It's a bear fairy. It's it's gotta be like, you
Paul Coccia: And I went what so I was going where was Yeah.
Julia Bodwell: know, colourful and and fun and
Paul Coccia: Well I was just like, when was the conversation around this? 'Cause I would have said to you, let Fred do full color. Don't
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: don't ask him to do limited palettes. So it worked out how it worked out. He did a great job.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Now you have s self-proclaimed author of clitor sorry. Luckily this is luckily this is not a children's
Paul Coccia: That would be amazing.
Julia Bodwell: show. Sorry, we have some stickers like that in the store and that's what the first thing that came to my mind. I'm sorry, gliterature.
Paul Coccia: I love the other.
Julia Bodwell: Luckily this is not a children's show. It could be both, but it's probably not the first one that I said. so so i Yeah, I don't think I don't think you're the right author for that. I think
Paul Coccia: I feel like I'm the wrong one. I feel that that's a sapphic thing.
Julia Bodwell: that's a different author, a different show. so can you kind of explain like what does that mean? Like what is glitterature? I mean, obviously I think of glitter, so like everything just covered in glitter, but is this
Paul Coccia: So
Julia Bodwell: is this like something that you kind of came up with or already existed?
Paul Coccia: As with the Bear Fairy, I thought I was I was amusing myself, 'cause that's really how it started, many
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: things. Or the lists and recommended reading were me amusing myself.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: having Bobby's objectives and for his goals throughout the summer. So I just I thought I was being funny, which apparently leads me into trouble or it leads me into like I come up with something. So I wrote a book called I Got You Babe, which was inspired
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: by my younger brother and his best friend who in grade eight in Catholic school did a Sonny and Cher routine and he was Cher and S she was Sonny.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: So that was the diving board to get into a story going, Okay, a talent show routine where Sonny and Cher and the boy will play Sunny and the girl will play or no, the boy will play Cher and the girl will play Sunny. So I kept referring to that project as Glitterature 'cause Cher. So I'm like
Julia Bodwell: Which you have to admit is hard to say without making it sound like the other thing. I'm sorry. You have to like see the gh in your mind.
Paul Coccia: It is. You just really have to commit to the d g So I kept going and I kept seeing the term glitterati thrown around online. So I'm
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: going, why has no one used gliterature? So I googled it. No one's using it. I thought,
Julia Bodwell: Really? Okay. So you coined it?
Paul Coccia: Yeah, I I'm I made it up and I am sticking to it.
Julia Bodwell: I love it.
Paul Coccia: when people ask me what
Julia Bodwell: It's gonna take off now.
Paul Coccia: Well when people ask me what it was, I go, Well, you know when books have a little bit of sparkle. the characters have some sparkle and some shine and then the book after that was a book called Leon Levels Up, which is a kid who goes into a virtual reality game and in real life he's not built to be a hero, but in the games he is. And a it's a sci-fi, so of course it becomes life and death. And my nephew who I wrote it for kept going, You should call that one glitcher and I'm going That's a mouthful, but it works.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. I love it.
Paul Coccia: So it's just you know, it's have fun. But I'm I think that is the essence of glitterature. So I keep joking I'm gonna start the house of gliterature.
Julia Bodwell: You should. That's all of that. And obviously your books can be there, but you know, you can bring in other author authors that want to write these types of stories. What? I don't believe I don't believe that. Not yet, maybe. Not yet. You just haven't gotten it out there enough enough. So
Paul Coccia: Yeah, no no one wants to join so I'm like I have to just pretend I'm like it's very exclusive. It's very exclusive.
Julia Bodwell: what are you working on next? What's what's next from you?
Paul Coccia: Bittersweet books, so Julie asked and her team asked me to come back and see if we could figure out an adult romance. Which is
Julia Bodwell: Ooh, okay. So so maybe there will be some clutter. Now, still now, still now. It's okay.
Paul Coccia: No. Do you know the podcast my dad wrote a porno? I feel like my grasp of female anatomy is about as good as that author.
Julia Bodwell: I mean that's fair. That's fair.
Paul Coccia: It's like, how did these things work?
Julia Bodwell: So are you currently writing it? Is it still like in development phases? Like where are we at with this?
Paul Coccia: still developing it. It's we want it saying Canada because I'm Canadian and you know, I do think right now Canada's having a moment.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: like with heated rivalry. So in romance it's like Canada's the land of frozen romance.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. yeah. It it is. Is that what it'll be? Will it be a frozen romance?
Paul Coccia: So we want it in in the winter, although this is becoming a which part of the winter because there'll be a lot of maple syrup.
Julia Bodwell: okay.
Paul Coccia: and a chef and a sugar baby who is down on his luck.
Julia Bodwell: my gosh, I love it.
Paul Coccia: So it's kind of like a bunch of messy characters and let's throw them all together with a bunch of maple syrup.
Julia Bodwell: Love it.
Paul Coccia: and I'm going, okay, l do we want it at Christmas? Like 'cause I love a Christmas rom com. But tapping season is like end of February, beginning of March here. When I'm tapping Yes. Yeah,
Julia Bodwell: Okay. Is that that's when you tap for the maple syrup? Okay. For us for us non Canadians.
Paul Coccia: so y you have to have warm enough in the day and cool enough at night that the syrup's flowing and we actually put a spigot into the trees and the
Julia Bodwell: wow.
Paul Coccia: the syrup the sap will run out and that's what you boil down. And
Julia Bodwell: It just comes right out. Okay.
Paul Coccia: so you'll see Canadian kids in the winter, like usually on March break, which is mid March, they go to the like Courtright Center, which is a conservation center up north of the city here. And you go and get the boiled maple syrup and they get fresh snow and they pour it in there and then each kid makes a little like Maple Starp Lollipop. And so
Julia Bodwell: that sounds lovely.
Paul Coccia: you're standing here with your mitts freezing eating them. It's just come out
Julia Bodwell: huh.
Paul Coccia: from this boiling pot. So it's like it's a very Canadian thing. So we're like discussing that. When
Julia Bodwell: Are is that gonna be a scene in the book?
Paul Coccia: I mean I guess it could be because you don't really need if you have extra sap, you don't need to wait. But typically we do it when the sap is flowing. And you need
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: those conditions for it. So I'm going, that's cool. there's also There was that show Heist on Amazon Prime, which was based upon a real thing in Canada, which was a maple syrup theft over
Julia Bodwell: wow.
Paul Coccia: many years. So it gets like
Julia Bodwell: How do you steal maple syrup? Like like how how is that a thing? Cause don't you just like
Paul Coccia: This gets crazy.
Julia Bodwell: tap any maple tree and just take the syrup? I mean I'm assuming somebody
Paul Coccia: So in
Julia Bodwell: owns the maple trees.
Paul Coccia: in Quebec, where they are known for having like perfect soil conditions for making great maple syrup and they take their maple syrup very seriously in French speaking Canada, they have maple reserves.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: So they're these huge tankers filled like what other people have gasoline reserves, we fill it with maple syrup. Which is amazing.
Julia Bodwell: You have you have maple syrup. Okay. I that's that feels very Canadian.
Paul Coccia: and over the years someone was going and going to the barrels when they would take it out of the tankards and they were siphoning off a certain amount and replacing it with water and watering down the syrup. So to date like and if you it depends who you talk to, 'cause French Canadians are insistent that whoever was caught was caught by the French mafia, the French Canadian mafia, and done away with, and that's why we'll we don't know who did it. And other people go, No, they got away with it and were never really caught. So there's a
Julia Bodwell: So it just depends on who you ask.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, a bit of Canadiana and we're like, how do we get this into a book? And I'm like, I don't know, but we'll have to somehow. You wouldn't believe it though.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. my gosh, I can't wait. So so i
Paul Coccia: Like of all the stupid stories, it's like, up in Canada they there was a huge maple syrup theft and it was like millions of dollars or something silly.
Julia Bodwell: That's I mean, is it i i if it's a lot of maple syrup, I mean that's expensive. That's that's somebody's business, you know, is is selling the maple syrup. So I believe it.
Paul Coccia: And it occurred over years. It was going on for like close to a decade. So they were siphoning it off every time they moved these barrels and then adding in the water.
Julia Bodwell: So yeah, I mean if you're doing it over a decades long, it's a decades long heist. I mean that's yeah, that's probably a lot of maple syrup, a lot of money. Okay. Only in Canada.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, and it's like only in Canada
Julia Bodwell: Well, I can't wait for your adult romance. So i is there like do you have a pub date yet or is it still too early for that? Okay.
Paul Coccia: There's no publisher on it. we're just kind of we're feeling out the characters and it's been
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: going on a while. We're feeling it out, seeing what the story what shape it takes.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: the opening chapter changed this is I guess a good thing about publishing is the opening chapter I sent to them was really, really funny. and then they came back and said, It's great, but we can't sell it. We need more of a hook. Like we're
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: experiencing now on the sales side that romance publishers are looking for more of a gimmicky hook to get into the story.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: so there needs to be something up front and I'm going, okay, well that's not a a that's not something that's the quality of writing. I can accept that.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: So I took the things and we decided to start with kind of a misunderstanding and it's one person takes things the wrong way. So it's it like sex and comedy put together which I guess I think in real life they go together very well, but maybe not in a romance so well. Hard enough.
Julia Bodwell: yeah. I mean I guess it just just depends on what type of romance you're writing. So
Paul Coccia: Yeah, I'm going erotic comedy. That seems like it should be a genre, but
Julia Bodwell: Hey, I mean you you coined literature. I got it right this time. so why not erotic comedy?
Paul Coccia: Yeah, it's like the knock knock jokes are really crass.
Julia Bodwell: So it's like instead of a romcom it's er erotic eroticcom? I don't know. You'll
Paul Coccia: Ha ha.
Julia Bodwell: you'll have to you'll have to workshop the name 'cause it's n it's not up to me to come up with it's it's your thing, so
Paul Coccia: I will say this though, for anyone who hasn't tried writing a sex scene, they really should. You
Julia Bodwell: Okay, just like for fun.
Paul Coccia: Well, you gain a respect for what people do by doing it. It's you it's different to do it than to just read it.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: But one thing that I found that was very different was in like in the the sci-fi, Leon levels up, if I wrote an action scene, the kid's running for his life. So
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: he's being chased down by hags or trolls and I'm going he doesn't have time to stop and reflect and go, and in that moment I was feeling you know and just like that, sex in the city.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Yep.
Paul Coccia: Y there's not those moments. So I had to go back into the manuscript when I was done with that one and put in moments where the kid could actually sit down and catch his breath and process.
Julia Bodwell: Where it made sense to fit that in. And and I appreciate that because I always hate, you know, especially like in movies, I don't see it as much in books, but in movies they're just they have these like long drawn out scenes where they're like self reflecting. I'm like, You don't have time for this. Like the bad guy is coming. Like what are we doing? How you don't have time. Keep going. It's not realistic.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, and well another part of it is like your brain, it's the lizard brain that kicks in. So everything's running on instincts and fight or flight and it's how do I get out of this situation. So you're not as considered as one might think. anyone in a panic knows this. It's if when things go wrong or you're in a car accident, it's that soccer mom save. They just do it. It's reflex. So they
Julia Bodwell: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: don't sit there and go, I must save the child. They just save the kid. So I
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Yeah, you're not overthinking it, you're just doing it.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, and when you do so a sex scene is essentially an action scene. You just take the clothing off. so if you think about that way, it it's not as daunting to say, you know, I'll try and write this.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: So you're writing it, but you also have to include the interiority, 'cause during those moments there is actually a lot of self-reflection and you know, I'm gonna take off my shirt, is he gonna be weirded out by the fact that this sags here or, you know, there's a bulge where he wasn't expecting a bulge.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: so there's things like that where you you have to at the same time as writing the action start writing the interiority and building it into the action. So you can't have one without the other I found. And I went, that's a really interesting way to approach an action scene. And I don't
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: I can't think of another action scene that would naturally lend to writing interiority the same way.
Julia Bodwell: Alright, well you've heard it here first, folks. You have to write a sex scene to really understand how to write. No, you don't. You can just write it for yourself. I love that.
Paul Coccia: I mean, you don't have to publish it 'cause you could go Yeah. And well and there's things where you know sometimes I re I read or listen to an adult romance that's spicy and I go, This was not written by someone especially if it's two males. I'm like n the person who wrote it is clearly non male. there are things like guys will not use euphemisms like my rose stem. Like they won't refer to their parts that way. They're very
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: direct about the way they speak about their bodies and things.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. It's interesting 'cause sometimes like you said, you can tell when certain characters are written by, you know, like a a male character that was clearly written by a female and vice versa. It's like, well we wouldn't say that, you know, or they wouldn't refer to that, you know, to it that way. So it's really interesting.
Paul Coccia: Well, Julie Murphy has the novellas that came out of her Christmas notch series with Sierra Simone that starts with a jingle bell mingle. They're
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: great if you haven't read them. It's like Hallmark movies with spice.
Julia Bodwell: Ooh, okay.
Paul Coccia: So definitely read them. They're I would imagine very easy to sell. because
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. I know we've had them in the store before. I I personally haven't read them, but I also am only just now kind of getting into romance myself, so
Paul Coccia: Having had to research it to write Bobby Who Loves Romance from Recommended Reading, i gained a deeper appreciation. It's not that I had anything against romance, it just wasn't something I read a lot of. and now I kinda wanna take a dash cam and turn it around on me because I mainly listen to them in the car. And there's certain
Julia Bodwell: nice.
Paul Coccia: things I always react to. So when someone's like, I found my person, I'm like, You've known each other two weeks and I
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: actually say it out loud to the radio. So my friend goes,
Julia Bodwell: I love that.
Paul Coccia: You have to record yourself having these reactions because they're such strong reactions. So just
Julia Bodwell: You should. I love that. Or we'll we'll we'll get you back on the show and we'll we'll go through like you can go through passages and be like, This is how I felt about that like you know, when you annotate and you can share your notes with me. Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: And it doesn't mean I didn't like the book or the author or the writing, 'cause usually I did enjoy it and finish it. But like there was one where the author was trying to depict this very masculine cowboy and he's always eating steak and potatoes and he's against a salad and then they re they get to the part and it's like three quarters through, they finally get to a sex scene and he reveals he's a bottom. I go, No way. You need fiber to do that and you never eat fiber. Yeah, I'm like
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. You don't eat salads, so what are we doing here?
Paul Coccia: You have to take Restoralax or something. This is not gonna work out for you.
Julia Bodwell: I love that. Paul, I wish I could just sit and chat with you all night. but we are running out of time here. but we will definitely have you back because this has been so much fun and we had so much fun. We said a lot of things, and
Paul Coccia: Did we get anything useful said in the colour?
Julia Bodwell: we will we will do this again. So, if there's anything that you want to leave our listeners with before we sign off,
Paul Coccia: I always feel like this is horrible. I guess drink more water.
Julia Bodwell: Like any little like drink more water, eat eat eat more salads, have more fiber.
Paul Coccia: Well, you know, that's not up to me to tell you what to do with your body. drink more water and I guess moisturize. we can all use extra moisturizer.
Julia Bodwell: Stay hydrated, both both internally and externally. I love that. Well, thank you so much for joining me. And yeah, we will definitely do this again. I feel like we can just go off on so many tangents and I can't wait to hear about more of your your adult romance. And thank you so much for being here and listeners, we'll see you next time.
Paul Coccia: I actually do have something, leave this in. if you're in a room with two authors, drop a chair.
Julia Bodwell: knock the chair over, not once but twice. It's a it's a great way to break the ice.
Paul Coccia: And let's see who takes the play.
Paul Coccia: I never correct anyone and you got it right. No, you got it right and I never correct anyone. We should leave it at
Julia Bodwell: Well you you did tell me it's like it's like gotcha, right?
Paul Coccia: Yeah.
Julia Bodwell: okay. So Paul Katya. And he is an author, a very talented author, and thank you so much, Paul, for joining me today. I'm excited to to see you again virtually, of course, through through a screen. and I know obviously you know how we met because you were there. But I just I love sharing this story. So I wanna tell our listeners a little bit about the first time we met because it's just one of my favorite stories from being in this industry. and it was I think it was twenty twenty four, right? 'Cause your book came out, recommended reading came out in twenty twenty five. And so you're like w you're like whatever you say, Julia. So
Paul Coccia: Your sense of time is so much better than mine. I'm like Yes, it was sure.
Julia Bodwell: I just remember so that was my first time attending Children's Institute, which is put on annually by the American Booksellers Association for those That don't know what that is. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: My first thing too.
Julia Bodwell: was it was your first time too? That's awesome. So I was just like beyond excited when your publisher actually invited me. Like they sent me an email and they're like, We're inviting you to a publisher dinner to celebrate Paul Coccia and his book recommended reading. And I was like, never heard of it, but I can't wait to read it. Like downloaded, you know, the E Arc, was reading it on the plane. I'm like, I'm gonna have this thing read at least somewhat, you know, before I meet this author, and like And then they gave us a copy too, so we got a physical book as well. And, you know, I was just like fangirling, like, my gosh, there he is, he's sitting at the table and he's gonna come around and sign my book and of course I was just so awkward and I knocked my chair over. twice actually. Twice.
Paul Coccia: See and okay, in my memory, I was like, No, no, don't worry about it and I knocked it over. So we can argue about it.
Julia Bodwell: You knocked it over. I feel like that I feel like that's very Canadian of you to just be like, I'm sorry, it's my fault. But I'm pretty sure I did it. I don't think it even matters at this point. I just love the fact that like the chair fell over twice and we both were just like apologizing for something that neither of us really did. Yep, she apologized to the chair, actually. the chair fell over and she apologized to it. So I thought that was great. So it was just
Paul Coccia: And Julie Murphy was there. And Yep.
Julia Bodwell: just Probably my favorite memory of that whole event and just like one of my favorite memories like of all time. So thanks for letting me be awkward and for joining me on this call so we could be awkward together.
Paul Coccia: You weren't awkward at all. the one part you did leave out is we were in New Orleans, which I'm sure I'm sure
Julia Bodwell: We were. We were.
Paul Coccia: I said it wrong as a Canadian 'cause I have a friend whose son in law is from Louisiana and they're
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: like she always corrects me. She's like, You're supposed to say it like this. I'm like, No, not when you're Canadian.
Julia Bodwell: Yep. You can say it however you want. and actually th the reason that I went to that one is because my brother lives in New Or we say New Orleans, but I think New Orleans is fine too, you know. It there's there's no wrong way to say it. and so I was like, Well that
Paul Coccia: I guess.
Julia Bodwell: that makes sense. I'll go because he lives there, I can stay with him and that was why I had all my stuff with me and it was like my chair got too heavy 'cause all my bags. I'm like, I'm not staying in the hotel, so I have to bring it all back to my brother's house and and then the chair fell over on you, so
Paul Coccia: I I don't know if people know this, but when you're brought there by a publisher, and Xando who is the publisher of recommended reading is great, so it's not a complaint, but you are on they flew you there. You're there as like an asset of theirs, in some ways. So there was one morning where I snuck away to go walk down Bourbon Street, but was early in the morning
Julia Bodwell: Ooh.
Paul Coccia: and I was just stepping over people who are obviously in a bad way.
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha ha ha.
Paul Coccia: And I thought there was a point where I go, I've gone too far, it's starting to get very scary. and I'm also looking at signs and going, Girls, girls, girls, all of them are just eighteen. What how would they have this many eighteen year olds in one city? so
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. I I I don't wanna know. I don't wanna know.
Paul Coccia: And then I walk towards the Mississippi and I was so excited, I'm like, it's like Huckleberry Finn. I'm like, you
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: don't get this sense of the s the scale of the Mississippi from reading it in a book.
Julia Bodwell: No, it's it's quite vast. had that was that your first time that you'd been to New Orleans? Yeah, okay.
Paul Coccia: Yeah. So I was very excited and I'm like, I'm gonna eat I think I ate four or five different types of beignet. And I was like
Julia Bodwell: Okay. Yeah, you have to eat all the things when you go there.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, and I drank the chicory coffee and I ate the pralines. I'm like, whatever I can get that's supposed to the things you're supposed to do, I'm like, I'm gonna do it. And I saw a hor a band on the street. I was so excited, I'm like, Wow, this is great.
Julia Bodwell: You did all of So yeah, so my gosh, the music there, th the food and the music. It's like that's why you go there, you know? And and of course the the drunken debauchery that you find on Bourbon Street and and the craziness. I guess they're one of the few places I don't know what it's like in Canada, but they're one of the few places in the US where you can like they have open container laws. So you could just walk around with your drink anywhere. Like h here in Florida
Paul Coccia: That's cool.
Julia Bodwell: you can't leave the bar with your drink. Like you have to stay in
Paul Coccia: Yeah.
Julia Bodwell: the establishment. So, I don't know how different that is, if it's the same or
Paul Coccia: No, it's the same, but I I think there must be people who do it with a paper bag on. Very classy.
Julia Bodwell: They're like, I got my bag, you can't tell what's in here.
Paul Coccia: So it's like yeah, we're not supposed to, but I'm sure people do.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Well, just like anything, you know, people do what they're not supposed to do. But so tell us a little bit more about recommended reading. I I love recommending that as reading. Like it's just it's silly to say that way, but it's such a great story. I loved the characters so much. how did you come up with that story?
Paul Coccia: Well, Okay, so it's kind of interesting and I guess this is part of that will be insider information for people who don't
Julia Bodwell: Yes.
Paul Coccia: know what an IP project is. So an intellectual property. So Julie Murphy started a company called Bittersweet Books. Julie's amazing. Let's just start there. She wrote Duncan.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: For those who don't know, we could go on for an hour about like a j we love Julie Murphy podcast, but that's not why we're here. so she started a company and and I was the first book in the first hire, but I answered a tweet. I didn't know it was
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: I didn't know anything about bittersweet. and I went through a process where it was like we have an idea. We're looking for a fat, queer male presenting author and I was like, It's me
Julia Bodwell: You're like, here I am.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, and I'm and I've been quietly working at this up in Canada where fat fat positivity and the politics around body politics and weight aren't as far as the US. We have
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: we just haven't had as many conversations and it hasn't been around as long. I've been asked once by a teen reader in an interview about the fact that the characters in my books are fat quite often. And I thought that's crazy. In Canada we're afraid to say the word fat. we're not afraid to say other things, but that one we don't touch. on because God forbid we offend someone.
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha ha.
Paul Coccia: so I answer this, I'm like, you've been looking for me.
Julia Bodwell: It's me, I'm here.
Paul Coccia: and so I went through a series of interviews and I had to do a written sample of the work. So the chapter where Bobby meets Gladys is his first day working at the bookstore. is almo there's things that had to change as I got to know more of the project. But that was my audition piece. So
Julia Bodwell: Okay. Wow.
Paul Coccia: I really did audition to write this and then Julie hired me, along with her team and at Bittersweet, and then they sold it to Zando. So I worked with T J Oler who was great to work with. Xando's really good at publicity and promo. So when they invited everyone there I was like, this is like so classy. We get to have a dinner to celebrate a book. and they have
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. That and
Paul Coccia: Okay.
Julia Bodwell: that was the first time I'd ever been to something like that. So I'm like, this is very classy. Like I'm I felt special being invited because not everyone got to go to that dinner.
Paul Coccia: and I dressed well that day. I remember that. I'm like
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha ha.
Paul Coccia: I purposely packed knowing it would be hot and I'm like, Julie always dresses well, her team always dresses well. I have to bring my like and I was having coffee with my editor before the dinner and I just looked at my watch and I go, I'm sorry, I have to go iron and he looked at me and goes, You're gonna go
Julia Bodwell: It's time.
Paul Coccia: iron? I'm like Julie always looks good. I can't show up looking like a slob. So the whole I'm not
Julia Bodwell: She sets the bar high.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, so the whole idea really was Julie's idea, and she very cleverly their team named it Recommended Reading because they said no matter how bad the review is, they must call it Recommended Reading. Genius.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: So they had this idea for this fat, gay bookseller who's kind of he's got a book for every situation. and it was in part an ode to indie booksellers, which I love about the book and the book lovers and to romance. and that was interesting because as my mother said to me, you're not romantic at all, so I don't understand how you did this. Well
Julia Bodwell: You're like, I'll show you.
Paul Coccia: I I even phoned my ex who I was gang back together with and we are back together now which romance readers apparently love second chance in a book but not in real life. Well not in real life.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. that's a great trope. Everyone loves that trope. No.
Paul Coccia: I've said it to roups of romance readers they're like What? You're getting back with him? No. And I'm like, you haven't
Julia Bodwell: Mm.
Paul Coccia: heard him. You don't know him. You don't know his life.
Julia Bodwell: You don't know you don't know the situation. You don't know you don't know our vibe.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, maybe I just want to make the same mistake twice. Who knows?
Julia Bodwell: Hey, and that's up to you to to to decide, you know, if you want to make that or not.
Paul Coccia: Well I phoned him after my mum said this. She goes she literally put down the book and goes, that was you finally wrote something nice. And I went
Julia Bodwell: Well, okay, what does that mean?
Paul Coccia: Noah I'm like, that's the greatest compliment 'cause it's a backhanded insult too.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: and then she goes, I don't know how you did this. You're not romantic and I go, How would you know? And she goes, You're like your father
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha ha.
Paul Coccia: Wow. So I phoned my ex and I'm like, My mum says I wasn't wrong. He's like, Well he's like, in fairness
Julia Bodwell: no.
Paul Coccia: And I'm like, What do you mean in fairness? He's like, Well, I never bought a pair of shoes when we were together 'cause you knew my size and my brands. He's like and you always found a good sale. He's like, but like you wouldn't like go out and buy a bunch of flowers and like have the house filled with flowers. I'm like, Well that's a waste of money, isn't it?
Julia Bodwell: It is. And I feel like knowing someone's shoe size or like, you their their shirt size, like you saw something out and you're like, they would like this. I'm gonna get this for them. Like that's romantic. It doesn't always have to be flowers, you know?
Paul Coccia: Yeah. Well, I'd rather cook for someone. I'm like I can when we first met and I I invited him for dinner and I was like, I'm laying a trap, I'm cooking for you.
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha.
Paul Coccia: And I'm not making like my mum's side which is English. I'm like I'm not making English food and we're going my dad's side, which is Italian.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: and we're pulling out all the pasta like you're gonna be too fat at the end of this to run. That's the goal here. Fill you with pasta and bread. Yeah.
Julia Bodwell: I'm gonna slow you down. That's a great that's a great plan. Like you'll be you'll be too full, you won't be able to get away. I love that.
Paul Coccia: It's like Olive Garden, which we're just getting back in Canada. We used to have
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: it. It died like Target died here. And now they're trying to reintroduce it. I'm like
Julia Bodwell: They're trying to bring it back.
Paul Coccia: and I'm like, if you don't have the wheelie chairs, what are you even doing?
Julia Bodwell: I do feel like Olive Garden has died here in the US too. Like I don't really remember the last time I've seen an Olive Garden. So now I'll have to do a deep dive. Like why where did what happened to Olive Garden? Like where'd it go? Where are the breadsticks? The breadsticks, the
Paul Coccia: Where are the breadsticks? What are you doing with all those extra breadsticks?
Julia Bodwell: endless breadsticks and and soup and salad. Like, you know, and you get the dipping sauce for the breadsticks. I'm gluten
Paul Coccia: I
Julia Bodwell: free now though, so I can't eat those breadsticks. But I remember there was a time where I would just cr that like you would go there, you just eat the soup, salad and the breadsticks. That was your dinner.
Paul Coccia: Do you make your own breads now?
Julia Bodwell: gosh, no, I I'm don't cook. I'm a terrible terrible cook. You don't want anything that I I make. I will do the dishes though. That's the deal. My husband he cooks and I do the dishes. Like if we go to our friend's house, she's an amazing chef. She loves to cook. I'm just like, you just tell me when it's time for the dishes and I'm I'm in the kitchen doing Like that's I hate cooking with a passion, like, more than I hate anything. I'm just not good at it. And it I I just want to I wanna
Paul Coccia: Well I love it.
Julia Bodwell: eat the food. I want someone to make it for me and then I eat it and then I'll do the dishes. That's like my
Paul Coccia: I mean that's a pretty good trade off.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, so it's like as long as someone else doesn't mind doing the cooking, I don't mind doing the dishes. Like that doesn't bother me.
Paul Coccia: That's a great trade off though, 'cause it's just like, well I can make a mess then. Yeah.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I and I don't like the mess. Like I don't like making the mess. I don't mind cleaning up the mess. Like like the tidying part. That's that's my personality. It's like I have to clean it all up. I can't make the mess, I have to clean the mess. So
Paul Coccia: That would work well.
Julia Bodwell: do you make your own bread?
Paul Coccia: Well, yeah. I j I actually made some today that was a fail. I tried to make Korean condensed milk bread because I'm
Julia Bodwell: Okay. What what is that?
Paul Coccia: it's a very light and fluffy white bread, but then
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: you brush the top there must there's condensed milk in the recipe I used, but you drizzle the top with condensed milk so it creates like a layer of that sticky condensed milk goodness.
Julia Bodwell: Okay. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: My nephew loves and I keep buying it from this Korean French bakery up near my brother's house. But it's like seven dollars every time I buy a tiny little loaf of it. So I'm like, I'm gonna learn to make it. It didn't work out well. I th I showed you the recipe
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Just learn how to make it, yeah. no. Was this the first time you made it?
Paul Coccia: Yeah. The parts that cooked
Julia Bodwell: And it didn't go well.
Paul Coccia: well the parts that cooked were good. The parts that didn't cook were don't eat that.
Julia Bodwell: n no. Well, hey, I mean, first try, I feel like y you got halfway there, so that's not a total fail.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, I I tried, I'll try again.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your newest book, The Bear Fairy, because I'm just I'm so intrigued by this because you've written a bunch of novels. So why did you transition to picture books? And can we expect more from you? What's going on here?
Paul Coccia: Okay, so I love like whenever people say to me what kind of writer are you, I'm like my heart has YA. If you threw me
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: up in the air and you I landed, I'd land on the YA side. I'd love it. but I've done quite a few middle grade because I could get work there. and that's part of it. It's I I can work in this area, so I'm going to figure out how to do this. and as when you get to working an area you I think you develop a love of it. Or maybe y some people don't. They're like, I hate middle grade. I will never do that again.
Julia Bodwell: There's like this is what I'm good at. I mean I guess I have to do this.
Paul Coccia: And it's interesting what you learn about because you have to become more attuned to the age group. but I was joking with a friend of mine, Heather Smith, who's a brilliant Canadian writer. She's w just won the Governor General Award, which is our biggest literary award last year. and she's she's brilliant. She's just a great author. Her stuff is if you read it, like The Agony of Bun O'Keefe is probably her most well known, I would say. you will get back to me and be like, I loved it, I was laughing, and I was crying. And I'm like, yeah, Heather has the ability to do that.
Julia Bodwell: Just all the emotions.
Paul Coccia: And to really just get right into the core of the character and it resonates with you. So she's just very talented. So during the pandemic we were joking that I was like, you know, I'm a bear, like a gay bear, and I'm a fairy. And my mum's side, being English, has fairy lore in it. My dad's side surprisingly has his town is known as the town of the fairies in Italy.
Julia Bodwell: wow.
Paul Coccia: And they have a yearly fairy festival and it's not your typical Tinkerbell, who is actually a pixie, by the way.
Julia Bodwell: You're like just to just to clarify.
Paul Coccia: Just to clarify, she's a pixie, so she's a bit more impish than a a fairy might be. But There are these scary fairies that my dad has where it's women who have these long dresses that cover their their cloven hooves and they dance wildly and lure the men away. So joking with Heather, I drew a doodle of a very fat, hairy guy with a beard, and then the legs of a bear and little fairy wings, and I sent it off to her and she goes, Well, that's a book, go and write it.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, yeah.
Paul Coccia: Okay, if Heather tells you to write a book, you do it. She's very accomplished, so I tried to write it. and it wouldn't be anything other than a picture book. So I was like, I know it's a picture book. and if you ask me how I know I go, it just doesn't I can't extend the story enough into a novel. Or I can't extend it enough into an early reader even. So I knew it had to be a picture book, which is a problem because I don't think I'm naturally a picture book writer.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: And so I kept working and I tried to tell in a very traditional way, which is here's the narrative and I'll use dialogue and he said and then he said and it sucked. Like if I'm being completely honest. It was really terrible. and so I rewrote it kind of like I would a play. And it was originally all dialogue. And my editor who became my editor, she's brilliant, her name is Margot and she was worked for Marvel. So she saw and she went, I'm interested, but it's a lo it's all dialogue and it's all illustrator notes, so the concern was how much control do you want over the illustrator? And I was none, you're not paying me to do that.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. You're like, that's not my forte.
Paul Coccia: Well, I was like, if you pay me to do it, I guess that's my job, but you're not paying me to do that. I was paid to write it. So she looked at and she was like, Yeah, we'll work on it together. I think this has a lot of promise and we went back and forth. So the The main structure was there and it was then tweaking. a picture book is different than a novel because you go in so many times and touch the same limited amount of words, whereas a novel, realistically you can only do that so many times in the time frames that publishers give you. and you can't rev I guess some people do revise ten, twenty, thirty times. I lose track of how many revisions get done because I revise as I go, so I never know.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Do you find that that makes it easier for your writing overall, like to kind of revise as you go? Has that always been your process?
Paul Coccia: Well and maybe you want to answer this too. I know that when something isn't good. Like I knew those first drafts of the Bear Fairy were not good. But was almost like let's get the garbage out of the way and then when you've eliminated what you think is the right course of action, you'll figure out what the correct course of action is. Yeah. You just kinda get get the garbage out. It's like okay, clean house
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. You might as well just get it out right now while while it's there, you know, you know it's gotta go. I like that.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, and I and there's drafts I will never show even my closest friends. I go, These are bad. I know they're bad. I don't need someone to tell me they're bad. I'm very aware.
Julia Bodwell: But that's the purpose of a draft. I mean, it's not supposed to be polished and and perfect right out of the gate. You know, anyone that can write that way, I'm in awe of. I don't think I've met anyone that can do that. that's that's the point of a draft. It's like nobody has to see this. It does not have to see the light of day, no one has to know it exists, no one has to know how terrible it was, you know. It's just as long as the final draft, the finished manuscript, that's good, that's polished, people are gonna like that. That's all that matters.
Paul Coccia: And you like you do know when it's not good, but you also know like this has promise. This I can work with. This is there's material here that I can use. so like With Bobby, for recommended reading, he was interesting because I had to jump into that character so quickly. I didn't I'm a character driven author. So I always start with character first and I figure them out and then the story kind of flows because I know how they react to certain situations and I I can move them around in but they when the character is well developed I find that they tell me what they want done. So the poor attitude.
Julia Bodwell: They speak to you. The
Paul Coccia: Yeah, so TJ at one point
Julia Bodwell: voices in your head.
Paul Coccia: said something, me goes, Could you try this? I'm like, Bobby would never do that. And it was like this very
Julia Bodwell: Bobby wouldn't.
Paul Coccia: I'm like, he just wouldn't. And he's Well, why? I'm like, it is not his personality. what
Julia Bodwell: You just know when y when you know you know.
Paul Coccia: well the suggestion was he's like he can match make Luke. I'm like, he would never So
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: when I was presented with the character and to jump into it quickly, I had to choose a point of reference, and my point of reference was Emma. But Emma via Clueless.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: So I was like, he's got a l that sense of benevolence that he always knows best, but he also means really well. But he's can be a bit overbearing in like my way or the highway.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Which I mean I I think that was part of the reason why, you know, at least for me, why I loved him so much. Like he just he was just such a great personality, you know, as a character. Like he really came to life on the page. So
Paul Coccia: And there's a little bit of a forced optimism with him, I find, in his character. So he was always like, Things are gonna work out and like
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Which I love that we need we all need a bobby like in our lives, whether it's you just from the page or like, you know, you have someone that that is that for you. It's like not everything is gonna be doom and gloom, you know. So have have a little bit of optimism.
Paul Coccia: You in earlier Yeah, in earlier drafts he was much more melancholic I would he so he
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: was sad. Like i the novel begins and I had to argue for the prologue. prologues people do not like for some like I know why they don't like them. They don't like them because often they're extraneous information. You don't need it in the book. the author wrote it to get into the story, but you don't actually need it and I'm going,
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: in this case the reader needs the information in the prologue. Events happen before the novel starts that the reader needs to see in real time. Otherwise I've cheated the reader.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: but there was a lot of hesitancy around it. So it came down to and when you're working with a team, it's you have to negotiate somewhat what you want versus what they want for a project. So I was let me try it. If it's not good, we'll get rid of it. So
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: but in the early drafts he had just had his heart broken by himself, which is one of the hardest types of heartbreak I think is when you you don't have someone else to blame.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, you can't blame anybody else.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, so he was and the the editor read it and he goes, he's a bit sad, isn't he? I'm like, Well, yeah. He's just broken his own heart and
Julia Bodwell: Obviously
Paul Coccia: of course he's gonna be sad and he goes, Well can't you make him more upbeat? And going, guess I'm gonna have to Yeah, and
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, I guess this is you telling me I have to do that.
Paul Coccia: so my and it worked for the character, so the the editor's instincts were on. But I had to give that sense of optimism where the reader could see through it and see it as a bit of an act, which means I also had to take the melancholy and turn that into a bit of a drama. And it's like, okay, we're dealing with a dramatic personality here.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. he was very dramatic, but like in all the best ways. I mean s this is like over the top about everything, which I loved. I just loved that.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, well I love the part at the beginning where he's like I have the Danish disease
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha
Paul Coccia: and I'm like book lovers will get it. And
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. And I just love how like he he was the book matchmaker. Like he could match you up with what you needed in that moment. And I as a bookseller I strive like to to be more like Bobby, you know, like I wanna be like Bobby when I grow up.
Paul Coccia: Well and there was these there was a moment when I think her name I don't remember what her name became. I'm terrible with character names. But it was the the widow. I think her name
Julia Bodwell: I c I couldn't tell you. That w how how how many years ago did I read this, Paul? I can't remember. I can't remember what I ate for breakfast yesterday. I don't know. That just means
Paul Coccia: About how many how many years ago did I write it? I don't remember. But her name changed. So I remember at one point her name was
Julia Bodwell: that listeners have to go read the book and find out for themselves. So it's a fabulous book.
Paul Coccia: I think it was I think it was Christie at one point.
Julia Bodwell: I I couldn't tell you. I could only remember the main characters. That's as far that's
Paul Coccia: One there's this
Julia Bodwell: as far as my brain will allow me to remember, but Don't you have a copy? W I don't even know I don't know where my copy is. I don't have my copy, I'm sorry. I should have like had it with me so I could hold it up. Cause you signed it for me and everything, and it's like it's in a special place on my shelf.
Paul Coccia: well, you write a my copy's over here. It's in a it's in a hold on a second. So I have mine in my beautiful bittersweet from Julie Book Cozy. and usually this is the one that I just show this is like the display.
Julia Bodwell: This is like your display. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, so there it is. But usually on the back I put a post-it with my character names. So if I have to present to
Julia Bodwell: So pretty. I love the cover. Mm-hmm. Okay. It's like a little cheat sheet.
Paul Coccia: a school, I just hold it up and I'm like, Yeah, here's like and I just so I do put cheat sheets on the back, which I
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: told kids to and I show kids when I go to schools, which isn't often, but I'm like, here's what I do and I'm like, So if you have to do a presentation, you really are stuck, you can put your cue cards on the back here.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. We we don't have to we're not expected to remember everything in our brains. And like you said, you I mean you've you've written a lot of stories, so I'm sure the characters after a while, especially like some of the minor characters, probably you know, you lo you lose parts of them. You lose what was their name again? You know, what so I love that.
Paul Coccia: And especially when you're you're suggested by a publishing house or an editor, change the name and then you go, Well, I knew them as I knew them as this name, so I have no idea what their name is anymore. I changed it for the
Julia Bodwell: I don't know who they are now.
Paul Coccia: sake of changing it, but don't ask me what their name is. But no.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. So with with your publisher, how much like control did you get to retain for either either for recommended reading for any of the books really? and how much do you have to kind of relinquish control? Like do they get to dis have final say on?
Paul Coccia: So there's things that I w I don't have control over, like the cover.
Julia Bodwell: Okay. So you didn't have any say in that?
Paul Coccia: N I d Xando was great and Penguin Random House was great, but up until that point it's always been stock images that have been used, so and y this is not a kids podcast, so I can tell this story.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: my first book tub and I have it one second, I'll pull it up so you can see the cover. there it is. So it was my first book and I was told, We hope you like the cover because if you don't, that's it. it was very
Julia Bodwell: That's too bad.
Paul Coccia: nicely done, but it was like, We hope you like it, but if you don't, that's the cover either way. And I went, it's okay, but you know, he's kind of thin on the cover. and then a few months later I get tagged on Twitter in a post and I'm looking at the guy who's tagged me, I'm going, That's a very revealing photo So I look at his profile and he's an adult film star and he's I'm on the cover of a book. And Isn't that who is on the cover of a book? and I happen to
Julia Bodwell: wow.
Paul Coccia: so I was like, this is amazing. Like who else
Julia Bodwell: I love that for you.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, who else with a debut novel can say that this is like a kid's novel? This is who's on the cover.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. my gosh.
Paul Coccia: and my grand was actually dying in the cancer hospital in Toronto and I went there
Julia Bodwell: old Paul.
Paul Coccia: and I say to her, You won't believe what happened. My grand was
Julia Bodwell: Did you tell her the story?
Paul Coccia: Yes, my grand was very modern. so she's like, Bring it up, I wanna see photos. So I brought up photos on
Julia Bodwell: That's awesome. I love her.
Paul Coccia: Instagram and she goes, Great ass So and didn't I need that?
Julia Bodwell: And it's like y you had no idea until after the fact like the book was already out and then you're like, What am I getting tagged, dog? What is this?
Paul Coccia: Well and then I went to the gay bookstore and they're like, Don't you know who he is? He's actually rather famous. I'm like, No, it's not an area of expertise for me. Yeah, they're like
Julia Bodwell: Like, what do you mean, Paul? You don't know who this is? my gosh. So they knew who it was?
Paul Coccia: they knew who he was. And then I met him and wasn't he the nicest guy? He's actually a trained chef who was on Chopped and the book is around a cooking competition.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: And I went, This is cool. And he so he said to me, Actually, I think this book will is good for teens. He goes, and you got a lot of the information accurate to how a cooking competition would run. And I went, That's cool that he's given the standard approval.
Julia Bodwell: wow. That's im that's like a compliment to come from him.
Paul Coccia: He was on Chopped and he was a stand-in for on Chopped for many years, trained chef, gone to adult. He's now retired. And I'm like, ooh, he's retired. and he's a train chef, he's a great guy and has a last I heard, a Joshua Tree Sanctuary in Palm Springs Deserts.
Julia Bodwell: wow.
Paul Coccia: So he's doing a lot of good stuff for the planet. I'm like, You're cool
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. You're like, I'm proud to have you on my book cover.
Paul Coccia: I was proud just you know, I guess other people might not be happy, but I thought this really fits with what I was going for, which is I'm I tend to write characters who are sexually empowered and there's a sex positivity that comes along with that.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: and I thought this is perfect for this book. th I hope the publisher doesn't pull it, which they did not. Or it's or
Julia Bodwell: Okay, good. Did they did they find out about it?
Paul Coccia: I told my editor because I said, Am I allowed to talk about this? And she said, I wouldn't recommend it on children's stuff, but for adults, yeah, it's cool.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Okay. I think that's a great story. Like what a great anecdote for your career. It's just like, you know, a happy
Paul Coccia: Yeah, and then every
Julia Bodwell: a happy accident.
Paul Coccia: every cover after that you're like, disappointment. Non-adult
Julia Bodwell: This is like you'll ne it'll never live up to that one again.
Paul Coccia: But actually so recommended reading I I was consulted quite a bit and one of the things that readers have loved is the cover being on the cover of the book the characters are holding. And that that was T J.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, I love that. It's like a little Easter egg.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, that was T J, the editor. He was let's put the cover of the book on the cover and I went It's one of the things readers have liked the most. The colors were Julie's suggestion. I don't know what I added to the other than Yeah, well other than when they originally
Julia Bodwell: I mean you wrote the thing, so
Paul Coccia: the sketches came back, I was Where's his love hand? Like, let's give him some curves. that's I did add that. I was if we're gonna put
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Okay. Well he's a curvy boy.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, I'm like if we're gonna write about a fat character, let's actually depict a fat character on the cover.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: So is I hope he gets a few curves. I hope he gets a booty.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. I thought it was a great cover. And then what about with the Bear Fairy? Were you consulted at all of that? Or was that kind of up to the illustrator?
Paul Coccia: I was consulted but the illustrator and the editor Margot and Fred, Fred Blunt is the illustrator, they had come up with this reminiscent of Tinkerbell doing the Disney ping.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: and they go, We don't can't have it too close that Disney will sue us
Julia Bodwell: It has to be just different enough that it's not we're not trying to rip them off.
Paul Coccia: So they wanted a very title forward cover and they presented it to me at the the end of it and I w they were like, What do you think? I'm like, Well, I like it, so I don't have notes. and Fred's a great illustrator, so I don't have anything to tell him. I don't want to tell him how to do his job.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Now was he someone that your publisher brought in or did you kind of already know him beforehand?
Paul Coccia: No, so they kept us separate, which is very typical at least of Canadian publishers for picture books.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: The author and illustrator, even if they know one another, typically aren't supposed to talk. there are exceptions where sometimes it's a personal story and the illustrator might need more info. but it came out of I just sent an email to the the publisher saying I was reading something that had those old British style cartoons drawings. And she goes, I know who we're gonna get for to illustrate the book. So it was all her vision. She was
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: I know who's gonna do it. there was a point when the illustrations came back, she goes, I'm so sorry. We're supposed to do limited palette. So for anyone who doesn't know a limited palette means, you choose like four or five colors and that's the all you'll
Julia Bodwell: That's it.
Paul Coccia: see in a book. So Good Night Moon has a limited palette.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: I think it's One Snowy Day is the correct title, the book where it's a limited palette because
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: it costs so much in those days. so those are
Julia Bodwell: Is that why they would trip typically do that? It was just for printing costs?
Paul Coccia: Back in the day, but also now it's become a a thing where it's it's a style. So they came
Julia Bodwell: It's like a style choice. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: back and it was full colour and they go, We're so sorry it's full colour. Fred thought this was best. I'm like, Of course it's best. It's
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, look at it. I I couldn't see that being a limited palette. Like I don't think that would work. It's a bear fairy. It's it's gotta be like, you
Paul Coccia: And I went what so I was going where was Yeah.
Julia Bodwell: know, colourful and and fun and
Paul Coccia: Well I was just like, when was the conversation around this? 'Cause I would have said to you, let Fred do full color. Don't
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: don't ask him to do limited palettes. So it worked out how it worked out. He did a great job.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Now you have s self-proclaimed author of clitor sorry. Luckily this is luckily this is not a children's
Paul Coccia: That would be amazing.
Julia Bodwell: show. Sorry, we have some stickers like that in the store and that's what the first thing that came to my mind. I'm sorry, gliterature.
Paul Coccia: I love the other.
Julia Bodwell: Luckily this is not a children's show. It could be both, but it's probably not the first one that I said. so so i Yeah, I don't think I don't think you're the right author for that. I think
Paul Coccia: I feel like I'm the wrong one. I feel that that's a sapphic thing.
Julia Bodwell: that's a different author, a different show. so can you kind of explain like what does that mean? Like what is glitterature? I mean, obviously I think of glitter, so like everything just covered in glitter, but is this
Paul Coccia: So
Julia Bodwell: is this like something that you kind of came up with or already existed?
Paul Coccia: As with the Bear Fairy, I thought I was I was amusing myself, 'cause that's really how it started, many
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: things. Or the lists and recommended reading were me amusing myself.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: having Bobby's objectives and for his goals throughout the summer. So I just I thought I was being funny, which apparently leads me into trouble or it leads me into like I come up with something. So I wrote a book called I Got You Babe, which was inspired
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: by my younger brother and his best friend who in grade eight in Catholic school did a Sonny and Cher routine and he was Cher and S she was Sonny.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: So that was the diving board to get into a story going, Okay, a talent show routine where Sonny and Cher and the boy will play Sunny and the girl will play or no, the boy will play Cher and the girl will play Sunny. So I kept referring to that project as Glitterature 'cause Cher. So I'm like
Julia Bodwell: Which you have to admit is hard to say without making it sound like the other thing. I'm sorry. You have to like see the gh in your mind.
Paul Coccia: It is. You just really have to commit to the d g So I kept going and I kept seeing the term glitterati thrown around online. So I'm
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: going, why has no one used gliterature? So I googled it. No one's using it. I thought,
Julia Bodwell: Really? Okay. So you coined it?
Paul Coccia: Yeah, I I'm I made it up and I am sticking to it.
Julia Bodwell: I love it.
Paul Coccia: when people ask me what
Julia Bodwell: It's gonna take off now.
Paul Coccia: Well when people ask me what it was, I go, Well, you know when books have a little bit of sparkle. the characters have some sparkle and some shine and then the book after that was a book called Leon Levels Up, which is a kid who goes into a virtual reality game and in real life he's not built to be a hero, but in the games he is. And a it's a sci-fi, so of course it becomes life and death. And my nephew who I wrote it for kept going, You should call that one glitcher and I'm going That's a mouthful, but it works.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. I love it.
Paul Coccia: So it's just you know, it's have fun. But I'm I think that is the essence of glitterature. So I keep joking I'm gonna start the house of gliterature.
Julia Bodwell: You should. That's all of that. And obviously your books can be there, but you know, you can bring in other author authors that want to write these types of stories. What? I don't believe I don't believe that. Not yet, maybe. Not yet. You just haven't gotten it out there enough enough. So
Paul Coccia: Yeah, no no one wants to join so I'm like I have to just pretend I'm like it's very exclusive. It's very exclusive.
Julia Bodwell: what are you working on next? What's what's next from you?
Paul Coccia: Bittersweet books, so Julie asked and her team asked me to come back and see if we could figure out an adult romance. Which is
Julia Bodwell: Ooh, okay. So so maybe there will be some clutter. Now, still now, still now. It's okay.
Paul Coccia: No. Do you know the podcast my dad wrote a porno? I feel like my grasp of female anatomy is about as good as that author.
Julia Bodwell: I mean that's fair. That's fair.
Paul Coccia: It's like, how did these things work?
Julia Bodwell: So are you currently writing it? Is it still like in development phases? Like where are we at with this?
Paul Coccia: still developing it. It's we want it saying Canada because I'm Canadian and you know, I do think right now Canada's having a moment.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: like with heated rivalry. So in romance it's like Canada's the land of frozen romance.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. yeah. It it is. Is that what it'll be? Will it be a frozen romance?
Paul Coccia: So we want it in in the winter, although this is becoming a which part of the winter because there'll be a lot of maple syrup.
Julia Bodwell: okay.
Paul Coccia: and a chef and a sugar baby who is down on his luck.
Julia Bodwell: my gosh, I love it.
Paul Coccia: So it's kind of like a bunch of messy characters and let's throw them all together with a bunch of maple syrup.
Julia Bodwell: Love it.
Paul Coccia: and I'm going, okay, l do we want it at Christmas? Like 'cause I love a Christmas rom com. But tapping season is like end of February, beginning of March here. When I'm tapping Yes. Yeah,
Julia Bodwell: Okay. Is that that's when you tap for the maple syrup? Okay. For us for us non Canadians.
Paul Coccia: so y you have to have warm enough in the day and cool enough at night that the syrup's flowing and we actually put a spigot into the trees and the
Julia Bodwell: wow.
Paul Coccia: the syrup the sap will run out and that's what you boil down. And
Julia Bodwell: It just comes right out. Okay.
Paul Coccia: so you'll see Canadian kids in the winter, like usually on March break, which is mid March, they go to the like Courtright Center, which is a conservation center up north of the city here. And you go and get the boiled maple syrup and they get fresh snow and they pour it in there and then each kid makes a little like Maple Starp Lollipop. And so
Julia Bodwell: that sounds lovely.
Paul Coccia: you're standing here with your mitts freezing eating them. It's just come out
Julia Bodwell: huh.
Paul Coccia: from this boiling pot. So it's like it's a very Canadian thing. So we're like discussing that. When
Julia Bodwell: Are is that gonna be a scene in the book?
Paul Coccia: I mean I guess it could be because you don't really need if you have extra sap, you don't need to wait. But typically we do it when the sap is flowing. And you need
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: those conditions for it. So I'm going, that's cool. there's also There was that show Heist on Amazon Prime, which was based upon a real thing in Canada, which was a maple syrup theft over
Julia Bodwell: wow.
Paul Coccia: many years. So it gets like
Julia Bodwell: How do you steal maple syrup? Like like how how is that a thing? Cause don't you just like
Paul Coccia: This gets crazy.
Julia Bodwell: tap any maple tree and just take the syrup? I mean I'm assuming somebody
Paul Coccia: So in
Julia Bodwell: owns the maple trees.
Paul Coccia: in Quebec, where they are known for having like perfect soil conditions for making great maple syrup and they take their maple syrup very seriously in French speaking Canada, they have maple reserves.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: So they're these huge tankers filled like what other people have gasoline reserves, we fill it with maple syrup. Which is amazing.
Julia Bodwell: You have you have maple syrup. Okay. I that's that feels very Canadian.
Paul Coccia: and over the years someone was going and going to the barrels when they would take it out of the tankards and they were siphoning off a certain amount and replacing it with water and watering down the syrup. So to date like and if you it depends who you talk to, 'cause French Canadians are insistent that whoever was caught was caught by the French mafia, the French Canadian mafia, and done away with, and that's why we'll we don't know who did it. And other people go, No, they got away with it and were never really caught. So there's a
Julia Bodwell: So it just depends on who you ask.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, a bit of Canadiana and we're like, how do we get this into a book? And I'm like, I don't know, but we'll have to somehow. You wouldn't believe it though.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. my gosh, I can't wait. So so i
Paul Coccia: Like of all the stupid stories, it's like, up in Canada they there was a huge maple syrup theft and it was like millions of dollars or something silly.
Julia Bodwell: That's I mean, is it i i if it's a lot of maple syrup, I mean that's expensive. That's that's somebody's business, you know, is is selling the maple syrup. So I believe it.
Paul Coccia: And it occurred over years. It was going on for like close to a decade. So they were siphoning it off every time they moved these barrels and then adding in the water.
Julia Bodwell: So yeah, I mean if you're doing it over a decades long, it's a decades long heist. I mean that's yeah, that's probably a lot of maple syrup, a lot of money. Okay. Only in Canada.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, and it's like only in Canada
Julia Bodwell: Well, I can't wait for your adult romance. So i is there like do you have a pub date yet or is it still too early for that? Okay.
Paul Coccia: There's no publisher on it. we're just kind of we're feeling out the characters and it's been
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: going on a while. We're feeling it out, seeing what the story what shape it takes.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: the opening chapter changed this is I guess a good thing about publishing is the opening chapter I sent to them was really, really funny. and then they came back and said, It's great, but we can't sell it. We need more of a hook. Like we're
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: experiencing now on the sales side that romance publishers are looking for more of a gimmicky hook to get into the story.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Paul Coccia: so there needs to be something up front and I'm going, okay, well that's not a a that's not something that's the quality of writing. I can accept that.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: So I took the things and we decided to start with kind of a misunderstanding and it's one person takes things the wrong way. So it's it like sex and comedy put together which I guess I think in real life they go together very well, but maybe not in a romance so well. Hard enough.
Julia Bodwell: yeah. I mean I guess it just just depends on what type of romance you're writing. So
Paul Coccia: Yeah, I'm going erotic comedy. That seems like it should be a genre, but
Julia Bodwell: Hey, I mean you you coined literature. I got it right this time. so why not erotic comedy?
Paul Coccia: Yeah, it's like the knock knock jokes are really crass.
Julia Bodwell: So it's like instead of a romcom it's er erotic eroticcom? I don't know. You'll
Paul Coccia: Ha ha.
Julia Bodwell: you'll have to you'll have to workshop the name 'cause it's n it's not up to me to come up with it's it's your thing, so
Paul Coccia: I will say this though, for anyone who hasn't tried writing a sex scene, they really should. You
Julia Bodwell: Okay, just like for fun.
Paul Coccia: Well, you gain a respect for what people do by doing it. It's you it's different to do it than to just read it.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: But one thing that I found that was very different was in like in the the sci-fi, Leon levels up, if I wrote an action scene, the kid's running for his life. So
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: he's being chased down by hags or trolls and I'm going he doesn't have time to stop and reflect and go, and in that moment I was feeling you know and just like that, sex in the city.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Yep.
Paul Coccia: Y there's not those moments. So I had to go back into the manuscript when I was done with that one and put in moments where the kid could actually sit down and catch his breath and process.
Julia Bodwell: Where it made sense to fit that in. And and I appreciate that because I always hate, you know, especially like in movies, I don't see it as much in books, but in movies they're just they have these like long drawn out scenes where they're like self reflecting. I'm like, You don't have time for this. Like the bad guy is coming. Like what are we doing? How you don't have time. Keep going. It's not realistic.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, and well another part of it is like your brain, it's the lizard brain that kicks in. So everything's running on instincts and fight or flight and it's how do I get out of this situation. So you're not as considered as one might think. anyone in a panic knows this. It's if when things go wrong or you're in a car accident, it's that soccer mom save. They just do it. It's reflex. So they
Julia Bodwell: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: don't sit there and go, I must save the child. They just save the kid. So I
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Yeah, you're not overthinking it, you're just doing it.
Paul Coccia: Yeah, and when you do so a sex scene is essentially an action scene. You just take the clothing off. so if you think about that way, it it's not as daunting to say, you know, I'll try and write this.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: So you're writing it, but you also have to include the interiority, 'cause during those moments there is actually a lot of self-reflection and you know, I'm gonna take off my shirt, is he gonna be weirded out by the fact that this sags here or, you know, there's a bulge where he wasn't expecting a bulge.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: so there's things like that where you you have to at the same time as writing the action start writing the interiority and building it into the action. So you can't have one without the other I found. And I went, that's a really interesting way to approach an action scene. And I don't
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: I can't think of another action scene that would naturally lend to writing interiority the same way.
Julia Bodwell: Alright, well you've heard it here first, folks. You have to write a sex scene to really understand how to write. No, you don't. You can just write it for yourself. I love that.
Paul Coccia: I mean, you don't have to publish it 'cause you could go Yeah. And well and there's things where you know sometimes I re I read or listen to an adult romance that's spicy and I go, This was not written by someone especially if it's two males. I'm like n the person who wrote it is clearly non male. there are things like guys will not use euphemisms like my rose stem. Like they won't refer to their parts that way. They're very
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: direct about the way they speak about their bodies and things.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. It's interesting 'cause sometimes like you said, you can tell when certain characters are written by, you know, like a a male character that was clearly written by a female and vice versa. It's like, well we wouldn't say that, you know, or they wouldn't refer to that, you know, to it that way. So it's really interesting.
Paul Coccia: Well, Julie Murphy has the novellas that came out of her Christmas notch series with Sierra Simone that starts with a jingle bell mingle. They're
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: great if you haven't read them. It's like Hallmark movies with spice.
Julia Bodwell: Ooh, okay.
Paul Coccia: So definitely read them. They're I would imagine very easy to sell. because
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. I know we've had them in the store before. I I personally haven't read them, but I also am only just now kind of getting into romance myself, so
Paul Coccia: Having had to research it to write Bobby Who Loves Romance from Recommended Reading, i gained a deeper appreciation. It's not that I had anything against romance, it just wasn't something I read a lot of. and now I kinda wanna take a dash cam and turn it around on me because I mainly listen to them in the car. And there's certain
Julia Bodwell: nice.
Paul Coccia: things I always react to. So when someone's like, I found my person, I'm like, You've known each other two weeks and I
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Paul Coccia: actually say it out loud to the radio. So my friend goes,
Julia Bodwell: I love that.
Paul Coccia: You have to record yourself having these reactions because they're such strong reactions. So just
Julia Bodwell: You should. I love that. Or we'll we'll we'll get you back on the show and we'll we'll go through like you can go through passages and be like, This is how I felt about that like you know, when you annotate and you can share your notes with me. Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Coccia: And it doesn't mean I didn't like the book or the author or the writing, 'cause usually I did enjoy it and finish it. But like there was one where the author was trying to depict this very masculine cowboy and he's always eating steak and potatoes and he's against a salad and then they re they get to the part and it's like three quarters through, they finally get to a sex scene and he reveals he's a bottom. I go, No way. You need fiber to do that and you never eat fiber. Yeah, I'm like
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. You don't eat salads, so what are we doing here?
Paul Coccia: You have to take Restoralax or something. This is not gonna work out for you.
Julia Bodwell: I love that. Paul, I wish I could just sit and chat with you all night. but we are running out of time here. but we will definitely have you back because this has been so much fun and we had so much fun. We said a lot of things, and
Paul Coccia: Did we get anything useful said in the colour?
Julia Bodwell: we will we will do this again. So, if there's anything that you want to leave our listeners with before we sign off,
Paul Coccia: I always feel like this is horrible. I guess drink more water.
Julia Bodwell: Like any little like drink more water, eat eat eat more salads, have more fiber.
Paul Coccia: Well, you know, that's not up to me to tell you what to do with your body. drink more water and I guess moisturize. we can all use extra moisturizer.
Julia Bodwell: Stay hydrated, both both internally and externally. I love that. Well, thank you so much for joining me. And yeah, we will definitely do this again. I feel like we can just go off on so many tangents and I can't wait to hear about more of your your adult romance. And thank you so much for being here and listeners, we'll see you next time.
Paul Coccia: I actually do have something, leave this in. if you're in a room with two authors, drop a chair.
Julia Bodwell: knock the chair over, not once but twice. It's a it's a great way to break the ice.
Paul Coccia: And let's see who takes the play.
