Janet Ray: Human Evolution and the Image of God

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[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to the Gravity Podcast, where we host conversations on developing a Christian spirituality rooted in love that fosters resilient faith in everyday life.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're coming from you live.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're coming from you.
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[SPEAKER_03]: To you.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're coming for you.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're not coming from you.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're coming for you.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Coming for you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Coming for you.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, auto tutorial.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Auto tutorial.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're coming for you.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Speaking, auto to early speaking, we're our songwaves are coming for you from us to you.
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[SPEAKER_03]: This is Matt.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm doing with Ben and we are.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We are doing an intro to this podcast today.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Ben, are you?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I'm doing all right doing all right to feel a little um, you know, the weather's, uh, the weather's turning.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's how they say it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There's some super hot days in September and now that it is the end of September and in October, now that it is, now that it is in October, you know, it's getting to be a little cooler outside highs in the 70s here in Indianapolis, most for the most part, which is nice.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It is.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But I will say that the way our house,
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[SPEAKER_02]: So our house, we moved into this, you know, 100-year-old house three years ago.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Or so, in the office where I do a lot of my work, which is like a, just like one of the small upstairs bedrooms, it stays cold.
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[SPEAKER_02]: consistently like all morning.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And we haven't turned on our heat yet.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, but you know that lows at night get down to into the 50s.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but one of the things yes, how I was doing and this is a long explanation about the fact that my hands are cold.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I notice that my hands are cold when I work here in my office in the morning and I'm like, okay, that's a sign of, you know, the changing weather.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's also a sound of a sign of my aging body.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I never used to get cold at all, but I feel like something to do with my circulation, maybe.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, that's what I'm noticing today.
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[SPEAKER_02]: My hands are cold.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I just put on a sweater.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you feel a little chilly.
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[SPEAKER_03]: been there's a recent innovation and technology that I'm delighted to be the first person to tell you about.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Fingerless gloves?
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[SPEAKER_03]: No, something tells me that Ben's punk era in high school he knows all about fingerless gloves.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think those were cool even back then.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you knew about them now.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I knew about them.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think they were cool.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Approximately just for it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Wasn't there like one movie where the punk guy wore fingerless gloves?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What was that?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Probably.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I want to say it wasn't say anything.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That was that one with the.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What was it?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, maybe it was.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Now, what was the one where they all got suspended?
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like the popular girl in the Jock and the.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my gosh.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to, there's, there's listeners right now screaming the name of this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a, like, no, that's you for that movie.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Breakfast club.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, there it is.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There it is.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Breakfast club.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Didn't he wear fingerless clubs?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, he did.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And all I had to do was stop thinking about what that movie was called and then it popped into my head.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, no, not fingerless gloves.
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[SPEAKER_03]: They're calling it a space heater and it heats a small space and you can Yeah, he's a smaller space.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You plug it right into the wall of space.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Mm, all of the outer space.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Just a discrete space.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know what, I'm looking at the breakfast club, I'm looking at the movie poster, and they were not just fingerless gloves, they were like driver's gloves.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Remember driving gloves?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, buddy.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's what motorcycle guys wore.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's just just so you knew that they were tough.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't feel like those were ever actually cool.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like that was Hollywood's idea of what a punk, cool guy would wore and he wore him in the movie.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't feel like, and I feel like maybe a one or two kids were like, oh, that's cool.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna do that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But it never caught on people were like, what are you trying to look like that guy from breakfast club?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I will, I mean, let's just acknowledge that you were sample size there and true.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Town, Minnesota is.
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[SPEAKER_02]: 100 people in my class.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So it didn't catch on there.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It might have, you know, everybody wanted to be that dude.
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[SPEAKER_03]: What happened to that dude?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He didn't start in that many movies after all.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What was his name?
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_03]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_03]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_03]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_03]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_03]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_03]: He was too looking up here.
05:13.986 --> 05:14.527
[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up here.
05:15.868 --> 05:16.468
[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_03]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_03]: He was too looking up here.
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[UNKNOWN]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up here.
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[UNKNOWN]: He was too looking up here.
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[UNKNOWN]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_03]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was too looking up
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[SPEAKER_02]: Um, listen, I'm sorry if this is not interesting to me, but Just like what where did he but he's been he's been acting this whole time has he's got tons and tons of move I mean small-time movies.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They're not they're not super popular, but he's like a working actor
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[SPEAKER_02]: uh... his latest movie was called kill me now uh... released in twenty-two six it was a thriller directed by michael polish uh... written by jackel and singer starring jad Nelson owing human and minna suvarie
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[SPEAKER_02]: He's still acting he's still good for him good for him.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we're celebrating that and this is a new second on the gravity Commons podcast.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're gonna read Wikipedia pages to you Bb that Listener Ben can I talk to you for a second?
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[SPEAKER_03]: The listener doesn't actually know the site you're on Oh, yeah, we could just You could just yes call it Wikipedia.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't want to you know.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I want to give props where props are due You know you know who else deserves props
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[SPEAKER_03]: Janet Kellogg Wright.
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[SPEAKER_03]: She's our guest today.
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[SPEAKER_03]: She's an enthusiastic science educator and communicator and is in her 21st year of teaching at the University of North Texas raised a creationist.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Janet is a Jesus follower who accepts evolution.
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[SPEAKER_03]: She loves to explain evolution to questioners doubters and those who just want to know more about the science of origins.
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[SPEAKER_03]: She's the author of fish with feet.
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[SPEAKER_03]: human evolution and the image of God, the God of monkey science and baby dinosaurs on the arc.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Janet and her husband Mark have two adult kids and live in the Dallas area where they manage a herd of muts, including a 40 pound puppy named Jilline.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're chatting about fish with feet today with Janet and listener.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I, you get to hear me nerd out about science for a bit.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And she's amazing.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So let's get into this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: She is very enthusiastic.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Here we go.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Janet Kellogg Ray, welcome to the Gravity Commons podcast.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, so happy to be here.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we're happy to have you.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And we're going to chat about your book, fish with feet today.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But first, before we launch into that, I wonder if you could introduce yourself to our audience, past your bio, and maybe focus on, you know, you mentioned that you were raised a pretty strict creationist and now you're writing books about evolution, like how, I know that might be a long story but how did that come to be?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, actually, I can, in hindsight, I have narrowed it down to water shed moments in my life.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I was raised, as you said, in a tradition, that would have no more have questioned the literal historical nature of Genesis, than we would have questioned the existence of Jesus.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, I don't remember evolution ever being talked
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[SPEAKER_00]: because it was just the default position.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But that changed a bit when I was in seventh grade because believe it or not, in the 70s when I was in seventh grade, science was not required for seventh graders.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was an elective.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I wanted to take choir because I thought it sounded fun, but my dad was also a teacher at my school.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My very triple type A dad.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And he did not like the lack of discipline that he saw in the choir room.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So he volunteers me that I was going to take the science elective.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and I credit that with changing the trajectory of my life.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was in the 70s, but I was in a new kind of experimental school, and it was one of the best science classes that I ever had.
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[SPEAKER_00]: For seventh graders, we went through all the animal groups, we did real live intense dissections,
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember, definitely, having thoughts as we were going through these animal groups and doing the dissections, that there was something going on here, that these different animal groups did not look specifically and separately made, but I could see structures that seem to be modifications of earlier structures and things seem to be related in that way now.
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[SPEAKER_00]: to express these thoughts, these feelings that I was having.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But I remember having those feelings.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I took that into high school biology again, you know, just kind of buried it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's something going on here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I went on to university at a Christian university.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was a biology major.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I got an excellent education in biology.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But our evolution education was this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Here it is in the textbook.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Read about it, your majors, you need to know it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that was it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And about 10 years after I graduated was the second big trajectory event in my life, a individual.
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[SPEAKER_00]: who had no connection at all to my university, decided to go in and take down the careers of two of the biology professors.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because by this time, about 10 years after I graduated, they had begun teaching evolution as the foundational principal of all modern biology.
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[SPEAKER_00]: One of these professors whose job was threatened was my favorite professor.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I taught labs for him.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and it devastated him.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The other guy kind of survived this guy was a very gentle soul, a humiliated him for him to be brought up, this nationwide campaign against him as some kind of atheist professor at a Christian university who's trying to ruin the faith that these young people going to the school.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And he ended up passing away way too soon, after that event.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that was a landmark for me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My husband was also a graduate of that biology program, and we were never big young earth people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That was something I never really wanted to even as a kid.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But we began to read intensely on our own, the actual evidence for evolution.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We were both biologists, so it wasn't a heart cell.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it was, the rest is history.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I started writing a blog, the blogs led to books.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And here I am.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was raised to creationists.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And learned, I mean, I went to Christian school and elementary school, learned about evolution,
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[SPEAKER_01]: just your very short little snippets, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Soundbites, if you will.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I quote unquote new, how bad it was, or how evil it was, but I couldn't ever explain it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know enough to see anything.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So would you just help me and our listeners?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think that probably there are a lot of listeners can relate to my upbringing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What's your two-minute explanation of evolution?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh well, two minutes, okay, here I go.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Start the time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, first of all, I would say that Charles Darwin was not the first or even the only person of his day that was saying that things had changed over time, that things in the past, living things in the past were different from what we saw today.
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[SPEAKER_00]: One big thing that was happening there in the late 19th century,
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[SPEAKER_00]: was extinct animals were being discovered by paleontologists.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Believe it or not, extinction was a novel concept that their animals were not all appear on the earth as they are today, that there were things in the past that were different.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So Darwin was not the only person to say this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He wasn't even the first person to say that things were different in the past.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and that things in the modern day had changed.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What Darwin was the first to do was to describe a mechanism by which this happened.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And interestingly, a younger naturalist, as they call biologists in the 19th century,
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[SPEAKER_00]: named Alfred Wallace, who Darwin was kind of his hero, had been corresponding with Darwin.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And in one of his letters, Darwin kind of thought, uh-oh, I'm about to get scooped.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because Darwin was afraid to come a public.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He wasn't a, he wasn't ashamed of his ideas or his theories of evolution, but he was a bit afraid of the backlash, but with this pressure from a younger colleague, he went forward with it and so the big difference that Darwin contributed at that point was a mechanism and that mechanism was natural selection, dissent.
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[SPEAKER_00]: from a common ancestor by the process of natural selection.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That was Darwin's big contribution to the conversation at the time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then the second thing I would put in my two minute description would be the fact that evolution is a tinkerver, a tinkerer.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Natural selection can only act.
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[SPEAKER_00]: on genes that are already present in a population.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Natural selection can only act on structures that are already present in a population.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then I'll just end up by saying if you've ever heard the term, the evolution means survival of the fittest,
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[SPEAKER_00]: erase that from your brain.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That is incorrect.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Evolution is not the survival of the biggest, the strongest, the smartest, the fastest at anything.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Evolution is actually survival of the fit enough.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If a population is fit enough to leave offspring and DNA to the next generation, then that population, that individual, that organism is considered fit, it's not evolution is not perfection, evolution is survival of the fit enough are you fit enough to leave your genetics into the next generation if you are your fit evolution goes forward.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Ben's fit enough, he's got a lot of genetic offspring.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There you go.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Apparently, according to the definition.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That means you're successful.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
16:56.513 --> 16:58.454
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of successful in the eyes of evolution.
16:58.574 --> 16:58.835
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
16:58.915 --> 16:59.295
[SPEAKER_02]: Wonderful.
16:59.675 --> 17:00.296
[SPEAKER_02]: Wonderful to know.
17:00.816 --> 17:07.241
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, if you could just get your offspring to live in niches all over the globe, you would really be as successful as bacteria.
17:08.482 --> 17:11.865
[SPEAKER_02]: I have three of them live a half block from me.
17:12.163 --> 17:13.404
[SPEAKER_00]: There you go.
17:14.064 --> 17:19.208
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, but one of them lives two hours away from me, and is about to have a baby.
17:19.268 --> 17:22.110
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's, you know, generations.
17:22.350 --> 17:23.431
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there you go.
17:23.471 --> 17:25.232
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
17:27.074 --> 17:39.222
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things, I think, Christy, you pointed this out in your question that, you know, for those of us who grew up in creationist traditions where, you know, you're not supposed to believe in evolution, but we really don't understand it.
17:41.024 --> 17:56.801
[SPEAKER_02]: And part of what you just even said just now, Janet, is sort of showing that there's a technical aspect to to evolution and there's a technical aspect of science that sometimes does make it difficult for us to understand kind of what these scientific concepts mean.
17:57.661 --> 18:10.849
[SPEAKER_02]: But one of the things I think you do really well in this book is to make science kind of deal with talk about science in a way that's more accessible and more understandable for lay people like us, like most of us.
18:11.930 --> 18:17.954
[SPEAKER_02]: And like most of our listeners, one example of that is your explanation of how life comes from non-life.
18:19.214 --> 18:24.998
[SPEAKER_02]: And I wonder if you could just share one or two examples, like maybe your favorite facts about how that process happens.
18:25.333 --> 18:28.473
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and you hit on a concept right there is that
18:29.035 --> 18:48.846
[SPEAKER_00]: we tend to think evolution is evil because what most people who reject evolution know about evolution comes from anti-evolution resources and so it's easy to try to shoot down the evidence if you've never heard it from someone like me who accepts the evidence.
18:48.886 --> 18:58.112
[SPEAKER_00]: So Abio Genesis or the beginning of life how the first cells evolved on our planet is a big sticky one.
18:58.932 --> 19:07.636
[SPEAKER_00]: and most of the anti-evolution resources will focus on incredulity.
19:07.736 --> 19:09.937
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to get enough all those syllables in there.
19:10.498 --> 19:11.578
[SPEAKER_00]: You're incredulous.
19:11.618 --> 19:13.619
[SPEAKER_00]: How could this possibly have happened?
19:13.639 --> 19:15.080
[SPEAKER_00]: Look at our big beautiful world.
19:15.700 --> 19:22.124
[SPEAKER_00]: how could living things have a risen just from the mud and the muck?
19:22.684 --> 19:31.650
[SPEAKER_00]: And so most arguments against it focus on that we just can't see how it could possibly happen, what we're incredulous.
19:32.390 --> 19:46.340
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the explanations tend to stop right there or go on to some sort of bizarre example like if you have a junkyard with all the pieces of a 747 and a tornado comes
19:48.582 --> 19:48.902
[SPEAKER_00]: through.
19:49.322 --> 19:51.423
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the tornado leaves the junkyard.
19:51.443 --> 19:55.444
[SPEAKER_00]: You have a fully functional 747 airplane.
19:55.904 --> 19:56.525
[SPEAKER_00]: There you go.
19:56.605 --> 19:59.606
[SPEAKER_00]: That's about as possible as life from no life.
19:59.966 --> 20:04.647
[SPEAKER_00]: And then my personal favorite is the monkeys on typewriters.
20:05.107 --> 20:06.888
[SPEAKER_00]: You had a room full of monkeys.
20:07.608 --> 20:12.910
[SPEAKER_00]: How long would it take the monkeys just pecking at the typewriter to ride?
20:12.950 --> 20:14.130
[SPEAKER_00]: It's always Shakespeare.
20:14.250 --> 20:15.931
[SPEAKER_00]: One of Shakespeare's plays.
20:18.641 --> 20:32.970
[SPEAKER_00]: It, you know, someone has figured out it would be take, you know, multiple hundreds of thousands of years for the, you know, the monkeys to do that and so our millions, you know, I don't remember what it was, but basically the idea is it's impossible.
20:33.010 --> 20:34.350
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just incredulous.
20:34.410 --> 20:35.491
[SPEAKER_00]: It never could happen.
20:36.212 --> 20:36.652
[SPEAKER_00]: However,
20:37.773 --> 20:44.118
[SPEAKER_00]: A few decades ago, someone wrote a computer program about those cute little typing monkeys.
20:44.879 --> 20:59.851
[SPEAKER_00]: And what this computer program did was, you know, it gave the number of monkeys in a room and said that anytime any monkey gets one letter right, that letter is locked in.
21:00.893 --> 21:13.719
[SPEAKER_00]: And that when you lock in any letters that are just randomly, the correct letter, the monkeys can write to be or not to be in about 90 seconds getting it in there.
21:14.679 --> 21:21.222
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you want to keep going for about four or five days, they can write the entire play of Hamlet.
21:22.522 --> 21:34.006
[SPEAKER_00]: Just with our little typing monkey, so the point I'm making here is that biology is constrained by chemistry and physics.
21:34.206 --> 21:37.587
[SPEAKER_00]: Chemistry and physics put limits on biology.
21:37.848 --> 21:43.289
[SPEAKER_00]: There are a finite number of bonds that can be made with any chemical.
21:43.569 --> 21:46.030
[SPEAKER_00]: There are finite ways to bond.
21:51.172 --> 21:54.216
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not open up to any other possible bond.
21:54.456 --> 21:58.420
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got that one letter in Hamlet locked in.
21:59.021 --> 22:07.350
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you don't have to have all the other possibilities because chemistry and physics place constraints.
22:08.128 --> 22:09.329
[SPEAKER_00]: on biology.
22:10.049 --> 22:16.933
[SPEAKER_00]: And just because we don't note everything and do we know all the steps that led to the first cells know we don't.
22:17.254 --> 22:24.978
[SPEAKER_00]: But we do know a lot about how it could happen the evidence for ways that it could have happened.
22:25.499 --> 22:30.542
[SPEAKER_00]: So just because we don't know everything, doesn't mean that we know nothing.
22:31.402 --> 22:40.785
[SPEAKER_00]: Right now, the deep ocean vents are the most likely locations for the beginning of life, the nurseries of life.
22:40.925 --> 22:53.148
[SPEAKER_00]: At these deep water, these deep ocean vents, there's a source of chemical energy, there's lots and lots of chemical building blocks, and interestingly, the oldest genes that are currently
23:00.090 --> 23:02.472
[SPEAKER_00]: in these deep sea environments.
23:02.512 --> 23:06.096
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's obviously much more evidence for that.
23:06.676 --> 23:10.040
[SPEAKER_00]: Do we have step one step two step three to the first cell?
23:10.480 --> 23:18.448
[SPEAKER_00]: No, we don't, but we've got tons of evidence and just because we don't know everything does it mean we're completely in the dark.
23:24.145 --> 23:32.839
[SPEAKER_03]: the deep sea vents reminds me that in this book you talk about how the earliest organisms on earth actually were allergic to oxygen.
23:33.777 --> 23:36.278
[SPEAKER_03]: that oxygen was poison to them.
23:36.318 --> 23:38.119
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's in the deep sea event area.
23:38.139 --> 23:41.401
[SPEAKER_03]: There is no oxygen or no oxygen down there.
23:43.642 --> 23:58.831
[SPEAKER_03]: So then help us understand these two mechanisms, this natural selection, how does an organism come to, oh, and then you talk about how like the increased animal complexity is linked to increased atmosphere oxygen on Earth.
23:59.511 --> 24:00.372
[SPEAKER_03]: So how does that happen?
24:03.253 --> 24:10.017
[SPEAKER_03]: not only become not poisoned but become correlated to the explosion of animal complexity on our planet.
24:11.318 --> 24:19.142
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, when we're talking about the oxygenation of our planet, your exactly right, the early earth was not oxygenated.
24:19.823 --> 24:25.766
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was a gradual process and we're not talking happening overnight or even within a few hundred thousand years.
24:25.826 --> 24:27.467
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're talking millions of years
24:33.113 --> 25:00.276
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, again, it's just down to Darwin's big idea of natural selection, any organism that had a gene, even a silent gene, a mutation of a gene that is not being used because it's not needed in the environment where that particular organism lives, so it could be a silent gene that's not really doing anything for the animal, but if that gene,
25:01.788 --> 25:09.650
[SPEAKER_00]: was able to give even a tiny advantage in a slowly auctioned oxygenating world.
25:10.411 --> 25:16.692
[SPEAKER_00]: That organism would have an advantage over other organisms that did not have it.
25:16.733 --> 25:18.933
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's kind of like an arms race.
25:19.393 --> 25:24.995
[SPEAKER_00]: The more oxygen as the oxygen levels on the planet rose, the more advantage
25:25.795 --> 25:29.299
[SPEAKER_00]: that the efficient users of oxygen had.
25:29.739 --> 25:31.100
[SPEAKER_00]: They could compete others.
25:31.160 --> 25:39.868
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you could use oxygen, but somebody else in your environment was a more efficient user of oxygen, then they had the advantage.
25:40.049 --> 25:42.891
[SPEAKER_00]: It really is, they would propagate, they would be more fit.
25:45.173 --> 25:47.275
[SPEAKER_00]: they would be more fit exactly.
25:47.375 --> 25:54.680
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you were more efficient at using oxygen, then you left more offspring to the next generation.
25:54.700 --> 25:59.583
[SPEAKER_00]: So like I said, an arms race is just the best analogy I could put for that.
26:00.184 --> 26:05.488
[SPEAKER_00]: And the idea of how did an increase in an oxygenated
26:10.531 --> 26:25.214
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not a physicist, but I can explain it at this level, you know, think about the combustion of fuels, whether you're putting gasoline into your car's tank or whether you're burning wood in a campfire.
26:25.875 --> 26:31.378
[SPEAKER_00]: The fuels that you're burning either the gasoline or the wood are organic.
26:31.718 --> 26:37.220
[SPEAKER_00]: And by organic, scientifically we need, they contain the element carbon.
26:37.340 --> 26:40.582
[SPEAKER_00]: If it contains carbon, it's considered an organic.
26:41.122 --> 26:41.662
[SPEAKER_00]: Substance.
26:41.702 --> 26:43.883
[SPEAKER_00]: So wood is organic.
26:44.443 --> 26:50.345
[SPEAKER_00]: Fossil fuels are fossilized living things so they contain carbon, they're organic.
26:50.865 --> 26:59.767
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know that you need oxygen in order to combust those fuels in order to release the energy in those fuels.
27:00.027 --> 27:07.049
[SPEAKER_00]: If you've ever done the experiment in elementary school, we took the candle, then you covered it up and the candle went out.
27:07.389 --> 27:15.996
[SPEAKER_00]: because when the oxygen was burned through, the candle would no longer combust, no oxygen, no combustion.
27:16.236 --> 27:20.220
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so take that and now let's go to food.
27:20.800 --> 27:27.946
[SPEAKER_00]: Food is also organic carbohydrates, proteins, fats, all contain carbon.
27:28.446 --> 27:39.514
[SPEAKER_00]: So in the presence of oxygen, in the bodies of organisms, the energy, it can be released from those organic molecules.
27:39.994 --> 27:44.378
[SPEAKER_00]: And that energy can be used then to fuel the bodies of
27:45.458 --> 27:46.318
[SPEAKER_00]: the organism.
27:46.398 --> 28:07.063
[SPEAKER_00]: So in an oxygenated, in an increasingly, I should say, oxygenating world, if you could efficiently use oxygen to break down all of the energy available in your food, you could build a more complex body.
28:07.743 --> 28:11.144
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why we see this, we see this,
28:12.745 --> 28:14.286
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to use the word explosion.
28:14.306 --> 28:19.371
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what we see this increase in a diversity of life.
28:19.871 --> 28:23.314
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the planet became oxygenated?
28:23.554 --> 28:29.779
[SPEAKER_00]: Because oxygen allows an organism to extract all of the energy.
28:30.500 --> 28:32.261
[SPEAKER_00]: that's available from their food.
28:32.481 --> 28:48.230
[SPEAKER_00]: Now today, simple bacteria consume organic food, glucose, as their nutrition source, but they're simple and their metabolic needs are very, very simple.
28:48.590 --> 28:51.392
[SPEAKER_00]: So they extract all the energy they need.
28:51.412 --> 29:00.557
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of these bacteria modern bacteria extract all the energy that they need for the very low metabolic life, just without oxygen.
29:00.817 --> 29:08.401
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're going to be more complex than a bacteria, you're going to need to extract all possible energy from your food.
29:08.461 --> 29:13.364
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, think in terms of that is the oxygen allowed more energy
29:13.724 --> 29:21.188
[SPEAKER_00]: to be extracted from organic food and the more energy you could extract, the more complex bodies you could build.
29:21.768 --> 29:25.390
[SPEAKER_00]: And bacteria today don't use oxygen.
29:25.770 --> 29:27.611
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't have very complex bodies.
29:30.152 --> 29:31.193
[SPEAKER_01]: This is fascinating.
29:31.653 --> 29:33.894
[SPEAKER_01]: I taught science for one year in junior high.
29:34.234 --> 29:37.436
[SPEAKER_01]: And we never got to get into all of this, which is like it's so fun.
29:38.830 --> 29:40.011
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, here's my question.
29:40.331 --> 29:47.175
[SPEAKER_01]: There's an argument commonly made by creationists against evolution is the transitional problem.
29:48.976 --> 29:53.578
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the human eye might be an example of that, just the complexity of a human eye.
29:53.939 --> 29:58.461
[SPEAKER_01]: So that even if one part isn't evolved, then just can't work.
29:59.001 --> 30:05.265
[SPEAKER_01]: There's probably better examples you could give us, but could you tell us like, how does science understand transitions
30:08.243 --> 30:11.305
[SPEAKER_01]: a job bone in a ear bone, and a mammal.
30:12.165 --> 30:29.734
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, first of all, and this is a point that I make in my classes, my university classes, because I use that term transitional, but you have to understand that things are transitional only from our perspective, looking back in time.
30:30.234 --> 30:37.398
[SPEAKER_00]: At the time, these so-called transitional and don't call them missing links, thank you very much for doing that calling of transitions.
30:37.898 --> 30:42.420
[SPEAKER_00]: These transitional organisms are only transitions from our perspective.
30:42.480 --> 30:50.965
[SPEAKER_00]: At the time, they were living, they were just who they were, the man at the hour, you know, surviving, leaving their genetics to the next generation.
30:52.538 --> 30:53.719
[SPEAKER_00]: But you're exactly right.
30:53.839 --> 30:59.001
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, it's that problem of in-credits, in-credits, in-credits, a duality.
30:59.181 --> 31:00.902
[SPEAKER_00]: I am struggling over that word.
31:00.922 --> 31:03.743
[SPEAKER_03]: You're doing great.
31:03.763 --> 31:04.244
[SPEAKER_03]: You're doing great.
31:05.824 --> 31:13.728
[SPEAKER_00]: But it is a very fundamental misunderstanding of how evolution works.
31:13.828 --> 31:14.889
[SPEAKER_00]: I said this before.
31:15.049 --> 31:16.069
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll repeat it again.
31:16.609 --> 31:18.790
[SPEAKER_00]: Evolution is a tinkerer.
31:22.673 --> 31:26.656
[SPEAKER_00]: Act on existing genes or existing structures.
31:27.136 --> 31:31.720
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a common misconception that evolution must start from scratch.
31:32.120 --> 31:35.523
[SPEAKER_00]: Evolution can repurpose existing genes.
31:36.263 --> 31:38.185
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you a few of my favorite examples.
31:38.605 --> 31:46.492
[SPEAKER_00]: There is a protein that makes up the lens of the complex mammalian eye.
31:46.592 --> 31:48.533
[SPEAKER_00]: The human eye or complex eye.
31:51.573 --> 32:04.186
[SPEAKER_00]: We find that same protein in these invertebrate animals that are distantly related to mammals, but very distantly, they're invertebrates.
32:04.246 --> 32:05.267
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't have skeletons.
32:05.287 --> 32:12.475
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't even have a head, much less an eye, but they are producing that same protein that makes up
32:13.565 --> 32:14.606
[SPEAKER_00]: complex lens.
32:14.947 --> 32:17.709
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, why do they need this protein?
32:17.789 --> 32:20.892
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do they make it using the resources to make this protein?
32:21.192 --> 32:23.154
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't have a head, much less at all.
32:23.455 --> 32:31.102
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it turns out this particular invertebrate uses that protein in a gravity sensing organ.
32:31.502 --> 32:33.244
[SPEAKER_00]: It lives in the ocean, so am I up?
32:33.324 --> 32:33.844
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I down?
32:33.884 --> 32:34.825
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I floating away?
32:34.885 --> 32:36.727
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a gravity sensing organ.
32:38.320 --> 32:55.911
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a woman who was doing research on these little one-celled organisms called Chauanna Flagellates a few years ago, and she found interestingly that Chauanna Flagellates made a protein that is found in multi-cellular animals.
32:56.091 --> 32:56.632
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact,
32:57.212 --> 33:03.157
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a protein that sticks cells together to form multicellular bodies.
33:03.237 --> 33:11.323
[SPEAKER_00]: So what in the world was this one celled organism doing using its resources to make this protein?
33:11.603 --> 33:21.911
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, as it turned out, that one celled organism used that protein to snad food and stick to food in its watery environment.
33:21.951 --> 33:22.592
[SPEAKER_00]: So again,
33:23.352 --> 33:31.677
[SPEAKER_00]: Evolution, repurposes, genes, readpurposes, structures that are already present somewhere in the population.
33:32.037 --> 33:37.120
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you hear a lot of times creationists make these ha-ha jokes.
33:37.140 --> 33:40.722
[SPEAKER_00]: So how can a fish move on to land?
33:40.742 --> 33:43.824
[SPEAKER_00]: The poor fish would be flopping around and suffocating.
33:44.685 --> 33:51.469
[SPEAKER_00]: But what is left out of that conversation is that swimblatters and lungs are basically the same
33:51.970 --> 34:00.563
[SPEAKER_00]: organisms, and that genes for lungs existed for millions of years before animals ever moved on to lay it.
34:01.404 --> 34:04.489
[SPEAKER_00]: Feathers evolved before flight evolved.
34:06.758 --> 34:21.326
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I will also add, this is probably my favorite example, but the first animal that we found in the fossil record that has the tetrapod tetrapod meeting four lind animals of which humans are.
34:21.386 --> 34:32.673
[SPEAKER_00]: We've got two arms, two legs, you know, most of the mammals we know are have two, two four limbs, two hind limbs, but the first animal in the fossil record that had the tetrapod
34:35.474 --> 34:43.224
[SPEAKER_00]: Like art, our big arm bone, two smaller bones, lots of little bones in a wrist, and then bones of a digit.
34:43.704 --> 34:47.989
[SPEAKER_00]: The first animal to have that architecture was a fish.
34:48.882 --> 34:58.728
[SPEAKER_00]: a fish that lived in the water with gills, with scales, but that architecture first evolved in a fish.
34:58.808 --> 35:05.773
[SPEAKER_00]: It was later modified and used as a bridge of those fish moved onto land.
35:06.253 --> 35:08.915
[SPEAKER_00]: So evolution is a tinker word.
35:09.155 --> 35:15.619
[SPEAKER_00]: These transitions are only transitional from our perspective looking back from the fossil
35:18.941 --> 35:26.983
[SPEAKER_00]: of these transitions, you know, looking, we can see from our perspective, a transition from fish to land animals.
35:27.243 --> 35:32.484
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the time, when the first fish with that limb architecture was felt, he was just who he was.
35:32.804 --> 35:37.345
[SPEAKER_00]: He was surviving and leaving offspring to the next generation.
35:38.345 --> 35:39.105
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.
35:39.285 --> 35:43.186
[SPEAKER_03]: And, and these transitions are millions of years.
35:44.029 --> 35:44.830
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
35:45.090 --> 35:45.691
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
35:45.851 --> 35:46.132
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
35:46.172 --> 35:47.693
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're talking about long time.
35:47.713 --> 35:48.575
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
35:48.615 --> 35:53.300
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to go back to the missing link comment that you were not supposed to talk about missing links.
35:53.400 --> 35:57.786
[SPEAKER_03]: And I know that this is kind of part of our nomenclature, right?
35:57.906 --> 36:00.008
[SPEAKER_03]: Pop culture is obsessed with missing links.
36:01.569 --> 36:08.092
[SPEAKER_03]: If you put missing link on the cover about natural geographic, you'll sell much more because people are care about it.
36:09.192 --> 36:13.994
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to talk about early hominids, and I'm sure you're a big fan of the guy-co caveman commercials.
36:15.914 --> 36:22.397
[SPEAKER_03]: And I wonder, and I've even heard articles recently about how there's...
36:23.297 --> 36:30.544
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a new evidence emerging that Neanderthals intermarried with other kinds of early hominids and had offspring together.
36:30.564 --> 36:42.835
[SPEAKER_03]: I wonder if you could just clear up what are some common myths and misunderstandings or misconceptions about early hominids and this desire to find the one missing link?
36:43.396 --> 36:44.336
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
36:44.697 --> 36:45.698
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it would be.
36:47.138 --> 37:00.813
[SPEAKER_00]: We were talking about early hominids, just in simplicity steak, we could break it down into the osteopethicine's if the famous Lucy from Ethiopia, she was at osteopethicine.
37:01.434 --> 37:08.802
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we've got the early members of our genus homo that eventually led to homo sapiens us.
37:09.552 --> 37:20.280
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it would be impossible to determine which of the Australopithicines was a direct ancestor of ours.
37:20.915 --> 37:32.178
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, that is a common misconception that we ought to be able to trace a linear history from these ape-like creatures to modern humans.
37:32.258 --> 37:44.962
[SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately, it's been perpetuated by a very ill-informed chart that marks your progress where you see the Chimp on one side, gradually progressing to a modern human.
37:45.642 --> 37:49.803
[SPEAKER_00]: But the reality is it's not a one in front of another,
37:50.263 --> 37:50.924
[SPEAKER_00]: progression.
37:51.344 --> 38:00.553
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more like a tangled bush, a tangled tree branches with branches of the bush overlapping each other in time.
38:01.054 --> 38:06.940
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's really not a way to know which of those really early hominids like
38:07.858 --> 38:10.639
[SPEAKER_00]: Lucy are in our direct ancestry.
38:10.839 --> 38:20.084
[SPEAKER_00]: But what we can determine is, again, a general trajectory to more and more traits that are increasingly human.
38:20.424 --> 38:34.191
[SPEAKER_00]: And as we move into individuals that we classify in our genus, homo, all the different species of homo, we see this general trajectory toward the modern,
38:35.769 --> 38:39.712
[SPEAKER_00]: anatomy of a human, you know, coming about.
38:39.853 --> 38:45.157
[SPEAKER_00]: So what we see in early human ancestors are mosaic.
38:45.638 --> 38:57.928
[SPEAKER_00]: We see evidence of bipedalism walking on two legs, but we see fingers and toes that are curved indicating the organism still, the individual still lived in a tree.
38:58.389 --> 39:03.233
[SPEAKER_00]: We see brains bigger than chimpanzees, but not near human-sized.
39:03.873 --> 39:17.603
[SPEAKER_00]: But as we move further forward in time toward a homo, our genus of homo, we start to see more and more identifiable modern human traits.
39:17.723 --> 39:19.544
[SPEAKER_00]: Canine teeth get smaller?
39:20.105 --> 39:24.328
[SPEAKER_00]: We start to see that arch in the dental pattern.
39:24.828 --> 39:35.701
[SPEAKER_00]: of the teeth, we see palvuses that are adapted for upright walking and we see brains getting increasingly larger.
39:37.383 --> 39:37.683
[SPEAKER_00]: You know,
39:39.628 --> 39:51.377
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a common misconception that our big brains came first, that our big brains led to humans controlling fire and making clothing and moving all over the world.
39:52.298 --> 39:57.281
[SPEAKER_00]: But big brains were actually one of the last traits to evolve.
39:57.542 --> 40:00.084
[SPEAKER_00]: The first trait to evolve was bipedalism.
40:01.004 --> 40:04.308
[SPEAKER_00]: walking upright on two legs.
40:05.970 --> 40:17.203
[SPEAKER_00]: But as far as some of the modern humans sharing DNA with some of our close, Homo genus cousins,
40:17.643 --> 40:19.225
[SPEAKER_00]: That's absolutely true.
40:19.546 --> 40:35.987
[SPEAKER_00]: So the best evidence that we have right now is that there was a member of homo, homo how to virginces, but I think it's the most accepted lineage, but it may have been another group of homo that left Africa.
40:36.827 --> 40:40.049
[SPEAKER_00]: early on and moved into Asia and Europe.
40:40.610 --> 40:46.354
[SPEAKER_00]: And some members of that same species stayed in Africa.
40:47.055 --> 40:56.081
[SPEAKER_00]: Once in Europe, in Asia, that group of homo that left evolved into the Neanderthals and the Denis Sevens.
40:56.702 --> 41:00.645
[SPEAKER_00]: And the group of that homo group that stayed in Africa,
41:01.265 --> 41:05.608
[SPEAKER_00]: they evolved into modern homo sapiens.
41:06.088 --> 41:20.838
[SPEAKER_00]: So that when modern homo sapiens left Africa, 60, 70, 80 million, no, 60, 70, 80, thousand years ago, we met some close cousins.
41:21.258 --> 41:30.124
[SPEAKER_00]: We met the Neanderthals, we met the Denise Evans, and we know they met because if you have ancestry,
41:31.177 --> 41:32.898
[SPEAKER_00]: outside of Africa.
41:33.578 --> 41:39.882
[SPEAKER_00]: You carry on the average two to three percent the end result DNA.
41:40.577 --> 41:42.358
[SPEAKER_00]: in your genome.
41:42.378 --> 41:44.439
[SPEAKER_00]: I did my DNA years ago.
41:44.559 --> 41:55.704
[SPEAKER_00]: I had to redo it for this book because I wanted to know how the endothall I was and not surprisingly I have about 2% the endothall DNA.
41:56.005 --> 41:59.646
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I said it as long as you have ancestry outside of Africa.
41:59.666 --> 42:02.388
[SPEAKER_00]: If your ancestors never left
42:03.108 --> 42:03.528
[SPEAKER_00]: Africa.
42:03.768 --> 42:06.810
[SPEAKER_00]: All of your ancestry comes from the continent of Africa.
42:07.270 --> 42:13.232
[SPEAKER_00]: Then your ancestors did not meet any Neanderthals or Denisovans.
42:13.292 --> 42:19.035
[SPEAKER_00]: And so people with only African ancestry tend to have zero or close to zero.
42:19.515 --> 42:32.294
[SPEAKER_00]: Neanderthal or Dinesaven, Dinesaven, is found primarily in people who live in the southeast part of Asia and they can have as much as 6% Dinesaven.
42:34.697 --> 42:35.137
[SPEAKER_00]: DNA.
42:35.197 --> 42:51.247
[SPEAKER_00]: So we know that modern humans, once they left Africa, about 60, 70, 80, thousand years ago, we know they met up with their long-lost cousins who had been in Asia and Europe for about 300,000 years or so.
43:05.417 --> 43:08.818
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I, three.
43:09.018 --> 43:10.539
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know six or seven.
43:10.799 --> 43:11.419
[SPEAKER_02]: Six or seven.
43:11.439 --> 43:11.699
[SPEAKER_02]: Six or seven.
43:11.719 --> 43:12.679
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, six, six, seven.
43:13.479 --> 43:14.160
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
43:14.180 --> 43:30.324
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, no, Jan, I wonder, um, you know, one of the reasons that sort of believing the evidence of evolution feels a little scary to Christians is that, um, I think that
43:35.510 --> 43:40.793
[SPEAKER_02]: We were not created by God, and that God does not have a special purpose for humanity.
43:41.053 --> 43:50.518
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I feel like the belief in evolution eliminates our sacred purpose, our spiritual identity, but your book seeks to bring them together.
43:50.578 --> 43:52.679
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're not in arguing for evolution.
43:54.099 --> 44:22.397
[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if you can just, maybe we can finish with this, just like encourage our listeners how we can believe the account of evolution but also maintain this belief in the fact that, you know, we can read the creation account and not take it literally, but take it spiritually, how does God maintain that sort of sacred purpose for us as humans when we read evolution or when we believe in evolution?
44:23.958 --> 44:40.114
[SPEAKER_00]: What's important to understand that the vast majority of working, researching Old Testament scholars hold that the creation accounts are temple building accounts.
44:40.194 --> 44:47.521
[SPEAKER_00]: That the language that's used in Genesis 1 through 3 is temple building language.
44:48.133 --> 44:52.056
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's maybe a whole other podcast there.
44:52.356 --> 45:03.944
[SPEAKER_00]: But much of the references there are the ancient Near Eastern people would have recognized it immediately as temple building language.
45:04.024 --> 45:08.207
[SPEAKER_00]: That whole breathing into the image to bring it alive.
45:08.508 --> 45:12.130
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a mouth opening ceremony that many ancient Near Eastern people did
45:16.033 --> 45:30.385
[SPEAKER_00]: in the temple resting on the seventh day to near-age in the eastern people, they would have understand that when you build a temple to your deity, the deity takes up residents and rests or rules from that temple.
45:30.726 --> 45:37.211
[SPEAKER_00]: So almost universally, these altestimate scholars agree that those
45:44.445 --> 45:56.991
[SPEAKER_00]: Every every every ancient Near Eastern Temple had an image of the deity placed into the temple and we see that again here in the Genesis account.
45:57.071 --> 46:04.614
[SPEAKER_00]: We see God placing image bearers in the creation temple.
46:05.694 --> 46:13.178
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, I I did a deep dive into the Old Testament scholars and this language of temple building.
46:14.478 --> 46:40.411
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, it's almost universally accepted by these researching scholars in this Old Testament language that the image bearing language is a task or a vocation, it's described in terms of what kings do, it's described in terms of what priests do.
46:41.203 --> 47:02.447
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the implication is as priest, as given this task of being priest in a creation simple, our job, so to speak, is to work a spiritual directive to care for the flourishing of all creation.
47:03.288 --> 47:13.634
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, scholars agree, the image is not a trait of any kind, like our human mentality or our physical dexterity.
47:14.194 --> 47:18.937
[SPEAKER_00]: The trait is not a character, like our morality.
47:19.017 --> 47:22.159
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not even something ethereal, like a soul.
47:22.780 --> 47:25.441
[SPEAKER_00]: It is something we are named as.
47:25.581 --> 47:26.742
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a vocation.
47:27.342 --> 47:31.867
[SPEAKER_00]: given to us by God, by naming us image barriers.
47:31.927 --> 47:33.348
[SPEAKER_00]: That becomes what we are.
47:33.748 --> 47:40.915
[SPEAKER_00]: It has nothing to do with our physical origins, our physical makeup.
47:41.536 --> 47:49.023
[SPEAKER_00]: And another point that the ancient language indicates is that it is an image that is given
47:49.792 --> 47:50.733
[SPEAKER_00]: corporately.
47:51.313 --> 47:54.175
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not given individually to someone.
47:54.535 --> 47:57.578
[SPEAKER_00]: You are the image of God and you are the image of God.
47:57.758 --> 48:03.882
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like Christians believe that we are the body of Christ corporately.
48:04.162 --> 48:09.766
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know, we'd look kind of sideways at someone if they walked around saying, I am the body of Christ.
48:09.786 --> 48:13.509
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we understand the body of Christ is given corporately.
48:18.167 --> 48:35.803
[SPEAKER_00]: The images given regardless of intelligence or intellectual disabilities or attributes it's given to immigrants, enemies, young, old, given to everyone along any descriptive spectrum.
48:36.984 --> 48:37.645
[SPEAKER_00]: And for me,
48:39.216 --> 48:40.536
[SPEAKER_00]: that was huge.
48:41.096 --> 48:52.959
[SPEAKER_00]: It made my view of God so much bigger than that vacation Bible school in a box six day creation on the seventh God rest view of God.
48:53.399 --> 49:02.461
[SPEAKER_00]: So instead of humans being a one-off, like I'm God's going to create all this stuff and oh yeah I need someone to take care of it,
49:10.155 --> 49:16.739
[SPEAKER_00]: Deeply, deeply woven into the fabric of all life on our planet.
49:16.759 --> 49:21.582
[SPEAKER_00]: We are rooted deeply at the roots of the tree of life.
49:22.283 --> 49:30.028
[SPEAKER_00]: We are tasked with the spiritual responsibility of the creation temple, and they are our relatives.
49:30.268 --> 49:32.870
[SPEAKER_00]: We're all related to each other.
49:36.085 --> 49:48.214
[SPEAKER_00]: Not only are we woven deeply into all life, to the fact of all life, we have been named the image bears to the rest of creation.
49:48.254 --> 49:58.002
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're image-bearing to our fellow members of this tree of life, to which we are deeply, deeply connected.
49:59.322 --> 50:02.763
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's a lot of theology in there.
50:03.283 --> 50:10.345
[SPEAKER_00]: What does it mean if we took that responsibility of image-bearing from the standpoint of, we're not a one-off.
50:10.645 --> 50:12.786
[SPEAKER_00]: We are in the big middle of it.
50:13.546 --> 50:22.088
[SPEAKER_00]: Yet, we are called to be that, to do that priestly directive of caring for the flourishing of all creation.
50:25.006 --> 50:49.163
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, Janet, I know you're a scientist, but you just preached, and I'm struck by, I wish we had time to explore more of what that does with our theology, how that gets worked out, because I think it's a powerful call to solidarity with creation, that has often been lacking in much of our theological formations.
50:49.803 --> 50:53.726
[SPEAKER_03]: The book, again, is called Fish with Feet, which we talked about.
50:54.686 --> 51:00.110
[SPEAKER_03]: Human evolution and the image of God, which we just talked about, Janet, thanks so much for being our guest today.
51:01.010 --> 51:01.911
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having me.
51:01.971 --> 51:02.992
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been great fun.
51:11.972 --> 51:33.580
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I'd love to hear each of you reflect on that last bit of we're Janet talked about how do we understand the image of God and what and how does if we accept that the evolutionary understanding of human development is generally true.
51:33.600 --> 51:39.602
[SPEAKER_03]: What how does that change our relationship to God in each other and creation?
51:46.185 --> 51:46.605
[SPEAKER_02]: Christie.
51:48.647 --> 51:53.410
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually thought what she said at the very end was fascinating and actually really beautiful.
51:53.430 --> 51:59.834
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if that's the right word I want to use, but I think it was really beautiful.
52:00.314 --> 52:10.581
[SPEAKER_01]: And it makes me have maybe a better or more holistic, a deeper imagination for what it
52:12.392 --> 52:19.981
[SPEAKER_01]: could mean for the world, the earth, the people, creation, to represent the image of God.
52:23.023 --> 52:23.764
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I agree.
52:23.864 --> 52:35.975
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like that, um, that is the crux of why evolution is controversy or cause anxiety or cause anxiety for people.
52:36.015 --> 52:36.715
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
52:37.156 --> 52:45.343
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's what we're afraid of losing, but I really love the way that she talked about it at the end there for two reasons.
52:45.483 --> 52:45.604
[SPEAKER_02]: One,
52:47.545 --> 53:03.349
[SPEAKER_02]: I love, I feel like when we think about God doing things in the world, I think we often revert to metaphors of magic, you know, we think about Zeus, you know, causing something impossible to happen.
53:03.890 --> 53:12.532
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, creation has to mean God just zapped something into existence or does something that can't be explained by natural means.
53:12.892 --> 53:14.153
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
53:14.173 --> 53:14.834
[SPEAKER_02]: He's not like that.
53:15.154 --> 53:19.699
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how we think about God working in the world as sort of these like, wow, miracles.
53:20.620 --> 53:32.832
[SPEAKER_02]: And I like the idea of thinking that God can work through a process like evolution over billions of years to bring about goodness and life, you know?
53:33.293 --> 53:33.493
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
53:33.513 --> 53:34.955
[SPEAKER_02]: So I like that idea.
53:35.455 --> 53:43.921
[SPEAKER_02]: And I also love the idea of taking our connectedness with the created what we are creation, after all, right?
53:44.501 --> 53:59.631
[SPEAKER_02]: Taking our connection with the rest of creation as a starting point for our stewardship of that creation rather than, because I feel like oftentimes the idea of, you know,
54:06.662 --> 54:14.344
[SPEAKER_02]: the idea that we are separate from creation, that it's something for us to exploit or use.
54:15.864 --> 54:25.227
[SPEAKER_02]: So I like the idea of holding those things together that that which we are commissioned to steward is that which we are connected with organically.
54:27.067 --> 54:28.588
[SPEAKER_02]: So I like those two aspects of it.
54:35.265 --> 54:53.404
[SPEAKER_03]: I liked how she was talking about the image of God being a function of occasion rather than an attribute, you know, that there's a responsibility given.
54:57.463 --> 55:06.416
[SPEAKER_03]: That's yeah, I just I feel like I'm noticing to that like when you know, I don't think about this conversation very much.
55:06.456 --> 55:13.886
[SPEAKER_03]: It just doesn't evolution doesn't bother me, but I don't I also don't like sit down and think, okay, what would that change about.
55:15.205 --> 55:17.446
[SPEAKER_03]: how I, like what she did at the end there for us.
55:17.466 --> 55:19.227
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't spend a lot of time thinking about that.
55:19.267 --> 55:33.532
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe I should, or could, but one of the things I noticed that I lose is some kind of esteem or comfort or belief that God does point in zap.
55:35.993 --> 55:38.274
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like I lose sort of that,
55:40.615 --> 55:44.117
[SPEAKER_03]: I lose them maybe, I don't know.
55:44.217 --> 55:47.058
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I ascribed like power or specialness to that.
55:48.479 --> 55:53.461
[SPEAKER_03]: And if that's not how it scientifically happened, right?
55:53.501 --> 55:55.662
[SPEAKER_03]: It's true in other ways, those creation stories.
55:56.403 --> 56:05.967
[SPEAKER_03]: Then I feel like I do lose part of how I've no pun intended or irony probably valid, how I image God.
56:08.928 --> 56:09.769
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm noticing that.
56:09.909 --> 56:15.673
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot, there's a lost, but maybe it's a, maybe it's okay.
56:15.713 --> 56:17.414
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it's worth losing, right?
56:17.674 --> 56:19.015
[SPEAKER_02]: To, yeah.
56:20.056 --> 56:29.963
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it strengthens the value that I think that I believe that God has for community, in connection.
56:31.064 --> 56:36.348
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we say that a lot, but like, the way she talked at the end, I just think,
56:36.923 --> 56:43.828
[SPEAKER_01]: it heightens and illuminates the value of community in a different and unique way.
56:44.389 --> 56:48.031
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm, yeah.
56:48.071 --> 56:48.392
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, 100%.
56:48.412 --> 56:48.772
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, 100%.
56:50.593 --> 57:00.861
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, this conversation reminded me of a story that one of the kids in my youth group told me once that she asked her dad, you know, where did humans come from?
57:00.941 --> 57:03.943
[SPEAKER_03]: And dad was like, well, many years ago
57:08.045 --> 57:09.886
[SPEAKER_03]: And then she asked her mom the same question.
57:09.906 --> 57:13.747
[SPEAKER_03]: And her mom was like, well, Adam and Eve, God made them.
57:14.168 --> 57:17.669
[SPEAKER_03]: And then they had babies and that's how humans came.
57:18.029 --> 57:25.072
[SPEAKER_03]: And so she went back to her mom and she said, well, mom dad said that we came for monkeys, but you said, God created us.
57:26.433 --> 57:30.654
[SPEAKER_03]: And the mom smiled and said, oh, that's simple.
57:30.835 --> 57:33.096
[SPEAKER_03]: Your father was telling you about his side of the family.
57:36.826 --> 57:37.426
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't.
57:38.247 --> 57:38.567
[SPEAKER_03]: Nice.
57:39.748 --> 57:44.090
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I was going to actually say Knock Knock to you at the end of this whole thing.
57:44.571 --> 57:46.792
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, do you want to like pretend like I didn't tell that joke?
57:46.832 --> 57:48.213
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm still going to do it Knock Knock.
57:48.953 --> 57:49.394
[SPEAKER_03]: No, who's there?
57:50.574 --> 57:50.834
[SPEAKER_01]: Adam.
57:52.315 --> 57:53.116
[SPEAKER_03]: Adam who?
57:54.437 --> 57:57.759
[SPEAKER_01]: Adam molecule in the universe had to come from somewhere.
58:03.019 --> 58:06.101
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that was, that was, that was way better than mine.
58:07.322 --> 58:07.862
[SPEAKER_02]: That was great.
58:08.102 --> 58:09.743
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like they just went right over my head.
58:10.223 --> 58:10.784
[SPEAKER_02]: What did you say?
58:10.804 --> 58:13.886
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh boy, not at all in cool.
58:14.226 --> 58:17.868
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm, I'm all in cool and the universe had to come from somewhere.
58:21.370 --> 58:22.611
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't, I'm just gonna let it go.
58:22.911 --> 58:27.073
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe if you explain that Christy, then he'll laugh.
58:27.133 --> 58:29.795
[SPEAKER_03]: That's typically how good jokes work.
58:30.455 --> 58:31.376
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, listener.
58:33.730 --> 58:34.270
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll let you go.
58:34.350 --> 58:35.111
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to let it be.
58:35.371 --> 58:36.572
[SPEAKER_02]: You got other things.
58:39.073 --> 58:40.394
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to know if you got that joke.
58:41.014 --> 58:47.658
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to be all my solidarity with her.
58:47.678 --> 58:49.439
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not what I should be doing.
58:49.459 --> 58:51.540
[SPEAKER_01]: I like this telling you.
58:51.580 --> 58:51.860
[SPEAKER_01]: I like it.
58:51.880 --> 58:52.200
[SPEAKER_01]: I like it.
58:54.201 --> 59:01.870
[SPEAKER_03]: I like the Christy after years of me subjecting her to jokes, half of which she didn't know were coming.
59:02.751 --> 59:04.693
[SPEAKER_03]: She's beginning or understood.
59:05.794 --> 59:07.496
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's probably due to your sanctification.
59:08.277 --> 59:12.462
[SPEAKER_03]: You are finally coming around to just joining me in the Tom Fudri.
59:13.162 --> 59:16.145
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we have to get bend a couple long side too.
59:16.165 --> 59:17.366
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if that will ever happen.
59:17.786 --> 59:18.327
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
59:19.027 --> 59:24.912
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm only, I'm, I practice Tom Fuller with a very, very select few people.
59:25.072 --> 59:26.093
[SPEAKER_03]: Not these people.
59:26.674 --> 59:26.894
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
59:27.094 --> 59:29.376
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know if it's, you know what that is.
59:29.396 --> 59:31.178
[SPEAKER_02]: Is my identification or the opposite?
59:31.318 --> 59:36.983
[SPEAKER_03]: No, it has to do with your, at least six to seven percent in the end or so.
59:38.016 --> 59:46.307
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's probably a children and animals are the only people that see that side of me and my wife sometimes.
59:46.748 --> 59:47.629
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, but that's about it.
59:48.430 --> 59:51.214
[SPEAKER_03]: So the more you know, listener, hmm.
59:51.354 --> 59:53.237
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, these friends.
59:53.557 --> 59:53.838
[SPEAKER_01]: Peace.
59:59.215 --> 01:00:02.380
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Gravity Podcast.
01:00:02.720 --> 01:00:05.144
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01:00:05.644 --> 01:00:08.569
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01:00:46.628 --> 01:00:47.489
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01:00:55.914 --> 01:00:59.636
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01:01:00.536 --> 01:01:01.177
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