Reframing Past Narratives, The Burden of Teams, Productizing Creative Work | Ruairi O'Flaherty

Okay. And we're live that's one of the last time. So I'm going to be saying that for awhile. Um, it's Wednesday, September 8th. And technically, this is one of the last interviews of the Exploring Creativity series. So it's kind of surreal. Um, I don't have it up here now, but I believe this is roughly interview 30.

Um, it's not actually, but it's close enough. I've been doing this for a minute. Um, next week after this interview, I'm going to be interviewing Christian, which, although it is an interview, technically feels like this is the last one because him and I have been working together on this. So, um, yeah. And then he'll be interviewing me about the whole series and just my creative process and all of that.

So wow. Made it to the end. Um, I feel like with creative projects there, aren't always clear ends. This is definitely a clear end. I'm very excited to kind of flip it into the next phase. Give me one second done. It's dismissed this video here. There we go. Hopefully I didn't lose audio, but, um, yeah, it's cool to have like a defined concrete end and even.

From the beginning, uh, knowing that our guests stay Royal Flaherty would be our last technical guest on the show and of the research, uh, was something that was cool to know when we started out. I just didn't know when that would be or how many interviews we need before it. But, um, I'd say we're here.

We're I think inclusion of, uh, so many interviews and it's really, really cool to be in that moment. So thanks for everyone that has joined has been in the interviews as participated comment, commented, shared it. Uh, anything, if you, um, have trouble listening to it on Instagram and want me to send you a all audio, um, or all video link to, um, the episodes, just send me a message and I can send you a link to Google drive so you can listen when you're in the car or whatever, what else?

Um, I think that's everything I'm going to invite some people, and then I'm going to invite Rory and we can get started. So, um, yeah, feel free to share this out with whoever, you know, that might be interested in what we're going to be talking about today or what we have talked about. Or honestly, if they're just a creative person looking to improve their craft and improve their process and mindset and all of the.

Send it their way. I think, um, they'll probably find something of value in here. I know I do every single time. Um, so yeah, that's all I have to say about that. Um, what else? It's my uncle's birthday. So happy birthday, uncle ed. Uh, he always, uh, laughed whenever I went live and said, okay. And we're live. So shout out to him for encouraging me to continue saying that every time.

Um, all right. Hi to everyone that's joining and I'm going to invite Rory. And

can you hear me? I can't nice. One. How is my backdrop? Are we, uh, are we suitably legit looking here? Does this look like I'm in a studio today? Yeah. You look like you've been doing some cool shit in there. Yeah. Cool. I've got my creatives glasses on. I think I'm, I'm trying to check the boxes here, you know?

Yeah. Turtleneck missing. If you set up the turtle night guy, I'd be like, oh boy. Yeah, that would be a, that would be a departure for sure. I used to wear them when I was young, but uh, you know, not. Bring it back for the holidays. Maybe that's the holiday lochia um, well, it's so great to see you. Um, this is one of the, I would say one of the most RS VP for Instagram lives that, yeah, I, I like to think that, I think that the, that the, I was thinking about it this morning in the shower, the way you and I speak to each other on Mike is special and I miss it, you know, the way actually, the way our conversations generally are special.

But I think we do. I think we got kind of good at, at, you know, when I think of working with spider and John and the pockets, it's like, there's, there's different rhythms with each of the three of you, but with you, there was so much about your intuitions that were different to mine. Um, the constantly were like upending things that I had sort of assumed were true or kind of like taken as like, nah, I know that I I've got that understood.

And it's like, over and over, you would, you would sort of school me because your intuitions were so different. And, uh, I think people responded to that. They sort of responded to the good-natured. You know, I think I said to you one time, but you know, I'm in love with questions and you're in love with answers and consequently, we make a really good sort of pairing.

So I'm glad that people. Are excited, you know, I'm happy. I'm happy that I got the same people. People hit me up and were psyched about showing up. It does feel like a reunion show in some ways, like we're like in our late eighties and we're like, we don't have to have the members tonight, but uh, we're out here playing the hits.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it didn't work out, but here we are, you know, this is Austin. It says our hot 200 hit from 1987.

Yeah. Well, some people liked it yet. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of some people. Yeah. I'll take it if we can hit some people w we're winning. Yeah, definitely. Um, well, before we start, how much time do you have today? Like, do you have an hour? Are you like really tight on time or is it more flexible? No, no. I'm more flexible.

Th this is a, this is a priority. So everything is sort of is scaling around this today. So then we should budget about four hours then if they do this, um, you know, I can always gauge how excited I am, um, with any guests by like how many topics I've pulled and sort of as for the topic list, there's about 50 or 60 of them.

And I'm going through and thinking, have we opened threads about this before? Do I feel like they have a really interesting take on this or like would, maybe this is something we could explore together and kind of dig a little deeper than I even know. So I do that evaluation with everyone I've spoken to so far.

And for you, I mean, we've prided at so many of these things before. And I would say that like, um, a lot of the early writing of the book or at bit, or the structuring of the book was like kind of coming up with different, uh, concepts that I was pulling directly out of discussions from the podcast. I mean, it was like, it wasn't intentional as much as it was like that's was my influence at the time.

That's where the momentum was. So, um, going through that list was fun today to be like, oh man, like, oh, I want to talk about that. I want to continue this thread. I want to like follow up on that. And so there's like a 20 or something, but, um, you know, let's, uh, let's go down the list and go in order alphabetically this time.

Um, the first one, I mean, the topic is collaboration and I know you inspired her, had been collaborating for a while. I think your relationship is one that has changed. Um, the type of work you've done for a long time, and you've really helped each other a lot to grow. And our collaboration together. You just talked about that.

I'm wondering your thoughts on collaboration as a concept, um, where, what your journey with collaboration has been from when you were young. Oh, wow. Uh, well, even conceptually how it changed your experience with it. I think, wow. There's so many, there's so many layers to it. I was a terrible collaborator when I was young, like awful.

When I think back to being in bands and stuff, when I was young, I'm so embarrassed, you know, I was just, um, not, not a good collaborator on any level, really. Um, either, either sort of thought I was better than I was, or too strong-willed or had ideas, like a really simple, silly thing. I was talking to a friend recently about this.

I used to think that guitar was the most important thing in a band, you know? Cause I played guitar and I felt like, well, you can play the whole song on a guitar. So that makes it like, that makes it foundational. And now that I've been making records for a minute, you know, or like at least finishing records, um, like it's the least important thing on almost any record ever.

You know, when I talk to young mixers about mixing now and they're like, how should I watch? Should I start with? And I'm like, well start with the vocal because that's all that matters. And then bring in the drums and bass because they matter. And then whatever space is left over, fill it with that other stuff, you know, like guitars and keyboards.

Like just my understanding of like the important. The instrument. So consequently like that that's silly concept in my mind that guitar was foundational led me to dismiss and to not, to just not understand what the other players in the band were doing. And, and I set a ceiling above which they couldn't sort of get.

Um, so yeah, very bad at collaboration. I was younger and I was thinking about collaboration recently, and that sort of tension between the freedom. You know, this is something spiders often talked about, the freedom between, um, you know, on Jordan Peterson and a bunch of people have sort of explored this theme of that, the need, we have responsibility to others and the sort of yoke that it places around your neck at the same time.

It's like, you need to work as humans. I think we often need to work as part of teams and we need to have people like you, who upend our ideas and people who challenge us and people with their own, um, agendas. And, and we need that push pull. Um, and at the same time it can be a burden. Sometimes, you know, there, there are days when you work as part of a team that all you do is sort of, sort of deal with team dynamics or, um, mopping up problems that other people on your teams have caused.

And on those days it seems like why the fuck am I in a team? Um, and. I think, you know, in the aggregate over time, it's apparent that we're stronger as teams. I mean, you know, I don't know that anything is true for everyone. Picasso, not much of a team player, I'd say, you know what I mean? And what he needed a muse that was clear.

So, um, I think that there's a tension. This is something we talked about. So many things in life are, hang on these tensions, um, that never go away. It's never easy to be a part of a team. It's never always sunshine and Burleigh love. And like we we're all in this together and everyone has the same ideas in the same goals.

There's always Rob. Um, but I think on balance collaborating, you know, has massive benefits. Um, and, and maybe there are times when you should go it alone. Like after the, after we, after you'd left the podcast and we, we went, went on to eat is, um, I sort of was a bit despondent and then it was like, oh, so we've just come out of a, sort of a phase of collective growth team growth, you know, um, cooperative growth, three, four people working together a lot.

Um, and, and developing because of it and hitting roadblocks because of it. And then it's like, well, okay, I can sit around and mope about that, or I can find a new team or I can. Have a little season of sort of personal growth. So it's like at home, you know, Sydney and I are working on the kids homeschooling, I'm working on my health with a dietician, you know, um, getting finance stuff, money stuff in better order and getting through a lot of work in the studio and on the acoustic side that was bogging me down.

So, um, you know, maybe, maybe there's a case to be made for little solar runs from time to time. But in general, I think collaboration is, is one of the master principals, you know? Yeah. Uh, there's so much there. I mean, as you were saying this, I was thinking of something, I had mentioned a few episodes ago, which is this idea or something I'd arrived at after the episode, which is that collaboration is this subconscious agreement to a feedback loop among individuals.

And oftentimes like, it's almost like the subconscious feedback loop that you get into is like shocking when it starts to, uh, starts to loop. You're like, oh right. That's part of this thing. Um, and feedback's an interesting topic and definitely a related topic. Um, how has like feedback and collaboration, what is that relationship been over time,

feedback and collaboration.

Feedback is funny because you have to, you know, sort of the underpinnings of feedback are well, who's it coming from? Um, you know, there, there are instructions, like, let's say, let's say I've had, you know, this is an extreme, and I don't think about my work life like this, but say I master records and let's say there's a genius legacy musician who makes a sort of a confounding note on, uh, on, uh, someone I've been a fan of forever.

And they send me a note on a master. I did. And they're like, yeah, this sounds better, but it doesn't feel better. And I like the first semester better, whatever. And I don't, I don't understand it, but I trust them. I have sort of like they have, they have a track record. They have, you know, a legacy of doing great work or then a note that, you know, uh, I get a mix from a young client who's just starting out and the mix is broken and, uh, I master it and make it better.

And then they listened to it and like, oh no, I liked whatever better. And it's like, there's a tendency to sort of derail their note, you know, their feedback because like, well, they're younger, they're, they're naive. Or sometimes you're protecting people's people's records from, from themselves. You know? So the thing about feedback is it's got to come from people feedback on your performance.

You waited, depending on who it's coming from, people, you trust people, you respect people. You don't, you know, if someone whose work I don't like, or whose ethics I don't like, or whose approach, I don't like, says they don't like what I'm doing, then it's like, ah, okay, so I'm not interested if someone like you or, or spider or John, or my wife says, oh, that's not, that's not working.

That's a very different thing. Or, uh, you know, uh, you know, so I think for me, I've had, you know, there, there's a fairly short list of people for whom I really take what they say to heart, you know? And other than that, there's a kind of pigheadedness I think in my approach to, to, to feedback generally, which has benefited me in some ways and really inhibited me in others, you know?

Um, I think, I mean, there's two types of feedback. There's, there's positive, there's cheerleading and there's, um, negative feedback, which is like, you're, you're fucking this up or you did fuck this up. And so, you know, that matters to who they are, where they're coming from, you know? Um, I don't know. Am I making any sense?

Yeah. I mean, I want to dig into, um, well, there's a few things that are on it's call-out you mentioned this sort of short list of people that you have to give you feedback. Um, I think it's great in many ways could be potentially stifling in other ways, if the, if you're in this bubble at some point, but at the same time, um, it is good to kind of, we talked a lot about on the podcast about finding your, for finding those people that can give you the feedback.

It's hard enough to get in a place where you can, um, before anyone could even deliver really unbiased or, or good constructive, useful, uh, forward moving feedback. Um, and I think when you have this, uh, convergence of good relationships and good feedback, that's where things get really special. And I think you were kind of tapping into that part is like, cause I could ask, well, why don't you have a big group of people that you get feedback from?

And I, I, I will actually w why don't you have a big group of people you get feedback from? I think, I think in, I think I'm super sensitive in, you know, I'm a, I'm a, a fairly, you know, I don't know, you know, this phrase, highly sensitive person or whatever, I'm, in some ways I definitely am, am one. And I think I sort of protect myself from, from, you know, a lot of people's emotions and, um, intuitions and stuff are very loud for me in my life.

So I sort of, there's a, there's an element of self protection. Um, there are other areas like. Tuning speakers. And so, you know, I worked with PMC for eight years for anyone who doesn't know. And, you know, so like I started recording and mixing when I was 18. I'm 45 now. So for 27 years I've been working more or less.

Full-time either recording, mixing, mastering, doing live sound, playing in bands, whatever. Um, and, but with BMC for eight years in LA, I, um, was going out, setting up big systems, um, for lots and lots of clients, lots of heavy hitters and A-listers, and, and, and different types of people. So it's like, you know, at genius, um, composers like Thomas Newman, who did like finding Nemo or, you know, the green mile or stuff like that, these amazing, um, savant level composers and or hip hop artists, you know, it's Timberland or it's Trent Reznor or whatever.

And all of those people, they didn't give me feedback on my tuning. You know, they didn't say you are a bad tuner or a good tuner of speakers or rooms or whatever, but they, they all taught me something about different facets of music. So, you know, I remember the first time someone said it sounds good, but it doesn't feel good.

That's a really funny note to get, you know, I remember where I was at in Capitol studios and who gave me that note. That was confounding to me. I was like, if it sounds good, it feels good. Right. And he was like, no, no, it sounds good, but it doesn't feel good. And we figured out what it was, what the move was to give him that feeling in his belly, that, that set that sort of umami of audio that kind of like, oh, that's it.

Oh yeah. So, um, we, all of those people gave me feedback, but they weren't, they were giving me feedback on an individual problem and sort of that became a whole set of experiences that now when I go in a room with someone I'm sort of intuiting a whole bunch of things about what it is they need and want, because I've had so many experiences with so many different types of people.

So I'm getting I'm, I'm good at sort of, I think I'm a good aggregator of information or experience, um, and maybe not so open to direct, uh, funny that the language that came to mind was direct attacks, but to direct, um, critiques, you know, I find them, I find they, they get me, uh, a little too deeply. So I guess I'm careful about who I invite, uh, or let into that space, you know, and I can be quite evasive, I think, in my, in my, um, language and use of language and, uh, control of a situation to avoid.

Getting getting knife to judo. Yeah. Um, two things there. Uh, everyone's going off in that thread about a mommy of audio that's so you, that it's such a Rory thing to drop, but so true. Um, you know, I'm thinking about my longtime longtime, best friend, Ross, like the best friend of best friends and our collaboration and like why we keep collaborating and why it gets better over the years than worse.

And what I realized is like we understand each other, we send each other's thought process at different moments of that creative process. Like it changes, you're creating things. And like the ability to adapt to that is really important, but to be able to even recognize it is a whole, it's the first step, as well as the feedback that's given and the way it's given the way it's presented and when it's presented.

Um, but it's interesting to think like how he can give me credibly harsh feedback and I wouldn't take it the same way as another person, maybe because of not needing to evaluate it as much or whatever it may be. Um, I'm curious about that, like in terms of your long-term collaborations, what makes them special to you?

What stands out about that? What's different.

I th I, I hope they're built on, on a sort of foundation of honesty, you know? Um, and sometimes you have to lead with that, right? Sometimes you have to be the one who, who puts down the sword first and sort of lays it out. Um, and as I get older, I'm getting better at that, you know, at, at, um, at sort of being, I think I was always, I always had a tendency towards being honest.

Um, but, but not always in a useful way, you know, sometimes it can be, sometimes it can be, um, aggressively honest, you know what I mean? I was like, I was trying to work with my older daughter, Ellie the other day on like, you know, when something comes to mind about like your sister does something goofy and is it worth commenting on, you know, is there anything, you know, so you, you think, oh, she shouldn't do that.

She always does that. Um, is there, should that come out of your mouth? And I was like, you know, talking about how in our family say, for example, generally it comes out of my mouth and quite often I regretted and sometimes on my wife's side, it's she doesn't say something that maybe she wished she had and where we're sort of at two sort of extremes of this polo.

And you're trying to help someone navigate a young mind to navigate through like, when, when should you be honest? So I think that. Honesty can sometimes be. And I've been thinking about this, doing some writing about like on Instagram, like this performative honesty, this performative vulnerability, that's really no more than, you know, long eyelashes fluttering or, or whatever.

It's a, it's a, it's a sort of a signaling rather than a, an authentic sort of offering, you know? And so I think, I think honesty, um, and I don't really know after that. I mean, I'm not, I don't think I am very good at it. I don't think I have, I don't think I'm terrible at, at like long-term collaborations, uh, or very good at it.

I think that the, the project with you guys over the last couple of years was, was a new departure for me, that was very, um, uplifting. And I would like, there are definitely some people in my life right now, and JJ is a good example or more it's just for the record and JJ catalyst, the mixer, these are people who are younger than me that like, I'm all in on, you know, I'm like, how do like, whatever these people need, I'm all in.

And, um, I feel that sort of sense of, of investment in them and them in me. And so there, there are new people coming through all the time that I'm excited to, you know, build this with. Um, but I don't know that I'm very good at it. Honestly. I don't know that I have much to say on it that would be useful to other people.

You know, I think you Exploring it is, is what's useful, you know, or your comfort, discomfort, ideas, open questions on it is what I found over the past, you know, several months with these interviews is that's what resonates with the people listening that they're probably questioning it too, or there, they might have a really fixed answer that they think there's only one answer to.

So honestly, shutting your, your opinion on it is, is excellent. And yeah, I think you're right. I think there is an underpinning of honesty. I mean, that kind of has to be there. I know that Ross will be honest and I know that he'll see me honestly, you know, like he'll be able to see me at the table in my truest form and I'll show up in my truest form and vice versa around that person, I think.

Yeah, that, that's huge because I think if honesty is the underpinning of collaboration, the ability to be honest, um, is I guess, foundational as well. Yeah, I, yeah, I think something I'm thinking of a meeting we had a couple of weeks ago and I told you about, um, with, uh, with a new client. And I think something I'm getting better at is setting terms for new relationships, like work relationships and stuff that are.

You know, in the first half hour of a meeting, you're meeting a client about building a studio or, or doing a record, you have, there are opportunities to demonstrate how we're going to do this, how we're going to move through this thing opportunities where there's something difficult to say, and you don't want to say it, but you do anyway.

And you're careful to sort of frame it and position it in such a way that it's, that they know that like this was not, um, you know, say for example, you, you know, you go to someone's, this is, this is something from a real project. Someone who has done an extraordinary amount of work on understanding. Um, so a musician who's done an extraordinary want to work on understanding how studios are built, put in incredible effort into trying to learn what, what basically went to the internet and just got horrible advice generally on, on how isolation works or studios work or acoustics work.

So they've done an enormous amount of work and haven't gotten a great result and are looking to you. So you have to, you have to be in that point, you're a doctor bringing bad news saying this particular patient is not going to make it. And we have to start over and yeah, and sort of biting that bullet early in the meeting, not saying things that people want to hear, seeing what they need to hear and, and sort of, um, being honest about your shortcomings or whatever.

I'm getting better and better at sort of starting new relationships with a good foundation. That's less performative, less kind of flexi or, um, controlling or false, you know, because I think with new relationships, there's always a, there's always a moment where you're like, I can, I can be someone new here I can sort of, I can sort of puff up my feathers and be a little bit cooler than I really am or whatever, you know, if we, if we cherry pick from our bio is it's like we can make things sound a little bit exciting, especially with, you know, a new client.

And so resisting that temptation being real and sort of finding, um, shared values and sort of common ground quickly in a meeting. That's something that I'm getting better at that I'm very happy with. Um, I'm finding like I'm getting new projects, new clients, new relationships on better tracks, so that like early, early, you know, and, and that's, that's been really a really good thing.

Um, and yeah, go ahead. Oh, I was just saying, you know, you and spider have been a big part of, and John, I've been a big part of that for me of sort of like just being a little bit more grown up in my, in my interactions in that way, you know, spider will. You know, we'll get on our group meeting and I'd say, oh, I'm just going to go over such and such place and do this thing, you know?

And he's like, that's not in the plan. We didn't, you know, that's not, we don't, we didn't charge for that. Like, how are, what are you doing? You know, you're breaking the system. We made a system for good reason. Why are you, why are you deviating? And that's been very good for me. So now at various points, I sort of channel your thinking or his, or, uh, you know, Dave, whose studio I made my friend Dave Collins, or, uh, I find it, I find it useful to have sort of, to look at work problems or challenges or opportunities through your different lenses.

I can sort of turn them on and off quickly. And it's really, it's really good. Yeah. That's so funny. I was going to say the same thing, like there's so many moments where I'm channeling one of you or an aggregate of a conversation into another conversation, um, in a way of like, whether it's for feedback or whether it's for just presenting oneself or whatever it may be.

Um, I think the thread we started on here was talking about like going into critiques and feedback and how you, how you give it. But I think what you're saying is that. There's different tracks that project could go down, you know, and it could be like a horrible project or it could be an excellent project and it could go from an excellent to horrible or vice versa and sort of starting that in a way where you, whatever, it's hard to explain it.

And on spiders on the thread, and I know he will question this for sure, but like the self, whatever self we're talking about here, that is like the more pure version and not one that you're adding the false narratives on top of, if that version could go into a collaboration, that version is probably, maybe not, it might not be easier to give feedback, but at least the relationship is built on that honesty where when feedback comes, they know that again, I was saying earlier, like it's partially about being comfortable with someone to give feedback.

So like, if you're starting as your authentic self, whatever that means, it's very, uh, you know, we will turn him, but if you know, I'm getting at it, at least someone will feel that they can show up as well. And then give that feedback in a way, um, to you doesn't make it easier. That's for sure that's a whole different discussion, but I think a good, a good question to ask yourself is, you know, if your partner or your mom or your homie could eat drop on a meeting or a call, would they recognize.

Would they like, of course, you know, when I'm deep in a, uh, a meeting about acoustics with, uh, with a client, I'm going to be doing technical stuff or with mastering, with, uh, with a client, I'm going to be talking about technical things that, but in terms of the way you're carrying yourself as a human, are you being sort of true or are you, you know, I are there moves at play, you know?

And, um, I think that's, uh, yeah, that's something I'm, I'm, I'm happy with. Sorry, I lost you there. I said that's a, that's a tremendous question for some people to ask because, um, the answer might not be what, what they, what they want to hear per se, or they might not be happy with, but I think you're absolutely right.

I think it's, as I've had to sell status to other people and starting that journey with like, okay, I'm selling status to other people and bringing the narrative of what sales meant. It immediately put me in this mode of like, I don't even know who the fuck is on this call. Like, I don't know, like if I ever watched any recording, I'm like that, it felt I felt it here, but I also felt it here that it just wasn't me.

It was a new version. And instantly it's gotten so good to talk to people about the business and their problems instead of like talking to them about the business itself and the features that it offers, you know, Again, getting away from that authenticity. And, um, or rather in this case, moving towards that authenticity, talking about the other person, getting to know them, building trust with them, you know, before even worrying about where it could go from a business relationship.

Um, and here we're talking about creative work and collaboration. So I bring the business side of it into things, but, um, yeah, I've just seen a significant difference while approaching things as who's this person do I even want to get to know them? Um, there's been a few clients recently where I was like, first call them.

Like, I don't even want to get to know them. Like, I'm kind of concerned if I'm around them for too long, whereas in the past I've done, I need this, I'm taking it this, you know, like it leads you down different paths to approach it that way that you're describing. But I think it's way more rewarding. And I think when you get to the end of the road and you look back, whatever that end point is or milestone is, you're like glad I did that.

Like I'm a happier me for doing that. Yeah. It's, it's tricky. You know, coming from Ireland, Ireland is very, you know, anyone who's, who's on the call from Europe. There's a, we've talked a lot on the podcast about this there's Ireland is quite, um, parochial, quite small town minded. It's a small country and lots of small, small towns and lots of tightly knit communities and those things.

You know, at once very supportive, um, and also very constraining, you know, there's a, there's a, in my hometown, in my family, there is around shaped hole for me. And that's, that's what you're expected to fit in. And, you know, at its, at its simplest or sort of the most zoomed out, you know, America prides itself on being an individualistic culture, a sort of a pioneer spirit, uh, an innovative, um, breaks on mold kind of thing.

And in Ireland that's not really rewarded. Um, so of course, you know, you know, I'm obsessed with sort of these days balances or tensions, but you know, when I think about your partner or your mom or someone eavesdropping on a call, you want, you want to find that balance between, you know, the only way, you know, what being too salesy or too douchey is, or too flexy to name droppy is sometime you have to do it.

And then you're like, oh, well, well, I, I went, I went too far there. It's like, we got to put it back and you don't want to be doing the opposite, which is to humble and kind of like, oh, what I think, I, you know, I think I know what I'm doing, you know, it's like, no, you've been, you've been doing this a minute and you know, own it.

So you're looking for that balance. But I think that, um, again, you're looking for a balance between growing stretching and trying stuff and being authentic. Yeah. It's it's, uh, I do think that something that I'm lucky, you know, you think about natural strengths that you can lean into. I'm good at, um, communicating to people that I'm their advocate that I want them to succeed.

That I'm not, when I, you know, when I worked with PMC, one of my jobs was to sell speakers and I was very clear, you know? Um, and it was frustrating to, to, to Maurice. My boss at the time was like, I don't want to work on commission. I don't want my conversations with clients to be based on, I don't want them to be in any way colored by needing the sale.

I was like, I think these speakers are great. I'm going to put them in the room. I'm going to make them sound awesome. And if they like them, they should buy them. And if they don't, they shouldn't. And so, and, and I would be clear with clients that this is how I roll. It's like, I'm going to put these in front of you.

And when they were like, I'm not failing it, it was like, cool, thanks. This was great. I enjoyed hanging out. Thanks for the espresso. And, and, but that, that, you know, I think that's something I'm lucky that I've had. And I'm now using that more effectively, um, in, in sort of like setting up relationships and, um, and sort of putting things on the right path.

So, it's funny, I'm thinking about this. Like everything would probably talk about today. I'm sort of putting words on things that I haven't really verbalized before, so it's a bit clumsy, but isn't that what we always do pretty much. Yeah. That's it, that's the best part of our conversations, I suppose. Yeah.

Sometimes I feel, uh, you know, when the, the, uh, when you see your own face at the bottom of the screen, sort of mumbling through a sentence, like, oh shit, I need to, I need to like put a little, um, you know, a screen across the bottom half. So I'm not looking at me lots. That might, yeah, that might be, that might be the thing.

Put a little bit, I didn't live carton for discretion. The diffusers look great. People were complimenting pair today. So you're doing great thing earlier. I mean, you're killing it out here. I think it's funny that I'm sitting in front of it. If user, when I'm on record, as saying you shouldn't put diffusers in your studio, but that's it.

Yeah, sure. Record it. Oh man. You should record a video and auntie diffuser video, but in the background, the halt and different diffusers are yeah. To be fair. I did say, I did say you shouldn't put diffusers on your studio unless you have a Jedi planning, the diffusers, and these were, these were done by a Jedi.

So that's the, that's the caveat. That's why I can, I can do it. It looks like the arable view of a city. Like, yeah, these are, these are beautifully, beautifully made. They're they're really well. Well, the design is Thomas, John, John from Northwest coast X, and the, the guy who built them is this, this carpenter, this guy called Sandy.

And, uh, they just went all in on getting these right. They spent, they spent a long time building these, um, and nailing them really, really well. So it's, uh, it's, it's something that it'll be here for a long time, and they're beautiful to you gonna have to look at it and they work really well. I want to, uh, move down the list and talk about another topic that is related to something you mentioned earlier, which is, you know, this individualist sort of approach to life, um, can often lead to this feeling of competition and comparison.

Um, I'm wondering for you, like, how has comparison played a role in your creative endeavors, your career? Um, how has that changed over time?

Huh? My creative endeavors. That's funny. Cause that's, I was thinking in the shower this morning about being on a, on an IgE live, a book, creativity and how uncomfortable it makes me feel that the, just the, the, the idea that I am creative is doesn't sit on my shoulders. So let's come back to that. Um, comparison, I mean, mostly is toxic, I think for, for artists and for art and for creativity, I think it's.

I think it's very dangerous now, you know, if you're making records and you want them to compete and you, and you need them to be streamed, um, and you want people to like your stuff, it is competing in a, in a marketplace and someone's going to listen to Drake over you, or, you know, Phoebe Bridgers over you.

Um, and you probably need to understand why does that mean you should change what you're doing? I don't know that that depends on everything. Um, but comparison mostly. Um, I definitely have had many experiences in mastering of people throwing their own records under the bus, because they were comparing with, um, with some release, some reference that they were chasing and, and they were like, well, you know, this record has this attribute.

So we're going to, we're going to turn that attribute. I'll be, and I'll record that, that, that brightness, that loudness, that distortion, that loud snare, whatever it is, they're going to max that out in to mimic this because it worked for them. So it'll work for us. And, and it's so rarely Sarah was the project.

Um, it does on occasion, but very often it undermines it. Something that was unique and stand alone is bent into becoming a kind of. You know, you talk about that thing of things that were designed by committee. And you know, when you have, when you take something natural and organic and beautiful, and the came from, uh, from, um, an authentic artistic, creative place, and then you bend it to make it more like whatever insert, you know, alien start is here.

It's very often compromised. Sometimes it's improved. Sometimes you can take something that is wonderful and lovely and new and bend it towards whoever and make it actually more poppy and more connecting, but often it's compromised. So it's, you know, how, how would that manifest in my, in my work life is very often clients will send me songs to master and they will send me, I don't ask for it, which so mastering engineers do, but they'll send me references.

They'll say, oh, we're looking, we want to do something like this. This is the reference we use while mixing. And I just won't listen to it. So I'll master the record first and then I'll go back and listen to their reference. And occasionally I'm like, oh, I see what they were going for. And then I go back and tweak my master more often than not.

I'm like, I just mastered the song. They gave me the way I think it should be and send it back and it works. They like it. And they're happy. So. Yeah, I think comparison can be really dangerous in, in creativity. You need, it's another form of feedback. You need to see how your stuff stacks up. But I think the, it goes to what is art and creativity and sort of childlike play and expression.

And when does that become sort of a product and a, uh, a service and, um, something that you're selling and that needs to compete. If you're selling phones, you know, the new galaxy fucking Android, whatever needs to have as many lenses on the back as the new iPhone, it's like people were going to compare, they're going to look at the photo quality or the memory or whatever, you know, whatever that drink that people are using to choose.

Um, but does your song need to have as much high-end as whatever maybe, you know, and so there's a, there's a funny transition where something goes from being a creative work, um, a piece of play into being a product often for you. And for me, a design that's a doodle becomes something you get paid for, or, um, a song that was a hook that, that, uh, that, uh, artists couldn't get out of their head, that they were just, they kept coming to them in the morning when they picked up the guitar that becomes a single that's going to be released.

And it's going to sit between, you know, whoever and whoever on a playlist and they need. It needs to stack up in some way. So when, when should that stacking up moment? How far back into the creative process should that reach? Should you be mediating your, your first thoughts on a song? Um, I thought something that I read the other day, sorry, I'm fucking rambling here.

I know it, but, um, something that I read the other day, you know, that Hemingway quote, um, uh, write drunk, edit sober, um, which I've always loved. I read a piece from Andrew Sullivan, the, the, um, the writer and he was making the case for writing sober and editing drunk. And what he was sort of saying was like, write with precision, write with focus, write with clarity, and then edit drunk was like the idea of getting rid of the Eagle.

And, you know, rather than being sort of inhabiting your own mind, it's like trying to be as dispassionate as you can come, the editing phase, you know, and it's really just another way of saying, be critical of yourself. So, you know, they, the, um, the Jerry Seinfeld thing from his episode on Tim Ferris, you know, when you re when you make something, never share it with someone for 24 hours, always protect that moment of joy at the creative thing.

Never tell someone your idea or your riff or your joke or your concept, and always give it a little safe space, a buffer, so you can sort of enjoy it. And yeah. Then open it to criticism, then open it to feedback. Um, so yeah, I don't know. Take, take anything from there. There's a lot of related or unrelated, a lot of hearts going off, a lot of comments.

Um, so I know people are getting something from it. I'm taking notes here. I mean, I think it was cool is that I asked you about comparison and you know, immediately said it's toxic, but also another form of feedback. Um, what I really liked though, is kind of where comparison goes wrong and where it could be useful.

So like where does it, how does, what is the function in which it becomes toxic, which is understanding why someone likes something, um, as a means of using that as like a dial, instead of using that as like further inspiration and understanding of people. Um, and I think those are two very different things.

It's like, oh, that's the lever that can manipulate them or make them like this thing. And I'm going to use more of that instead of what is the best feeling thing to create. What's evoking emotion in general. And then, yeah, maybe you want to skew the mix a little bit more on the top end if you think that makes sense.

Sure. But I think, I think when you're comparing to create the tip to discover the dials, I think that's where it starts to get problematic. Where it's like, what are the dials I need to be successful? Let me look elsewhere. Instead of internally in generate something, let me look elsewhere and find the truth in all these successful things.

Um, at some point you're just searching for dials and you're not really generating that, getting toxic for sure. And at that point, you're, you're really in full production line mode. You're, you're thinking about making product and there, there are people, including friends of ours in LA that's their gig.

You know, they, they, they are less concerned with raw childlike play and more concerned with making product that they can ship. And that's okay too. Um, that's if that's how you're calibrated, then that's important to, to know and acknowledging. And there isn't one, there are people who should stop trying to make records to sell and teach just to make records for themselves.

And there are people who could definitely turn up the, the, uh, the product dial a little bit. There could be a little bit more conscious of, of, of the years that it lands on. So there isn't one, you know, I'm always conscious that if I, if I had the answers, I would be a giant success. So clearly I don't have the answers, but you, you know, you do see different things as you get in and out of rooms with people of all different levels.

I just spent yesterday. I spent yesterday afternoon with, uh, a really big. Uh, DJ producer that we're working on a project for that, hopefully we'll be able to tell the public about, um, at some point really exciting, really smart dude, some of our team, but we had a very detailed and nuanced conversation about making tracks and playing them for audiences in very large arenas and events, getting the audience feedback that informing the work in the studio and back and forth, and like the tiny details that matter in terms of perceiving the feelings and the, and the impact and the emotion in a room with like any ears and, and monitors and studio monitors, like it was a deep conversation.

Um, but all that to say that these, these feedback moments, these comparison moments there, they are very important in terms of sort of success. You know, they're very important. Um, I mean, the what's the old phrase, like comparison is the thief of joy. I think it definitely is. Um, there, there is, uh, there was a book I read way, way, way back.

Like probably when I was like 21 or two, I got this book on production and it was at the time it had like a bunch of alias producers. Most of them now would be, would be old hat. What was interesting to me is they all had different approaches and they all had had a hit record. So one guy would say, you should always do black, never do white.

And then next guy would be like, oh, you should always do white and never do black. And they both had hit records. So I was like, oh, this is interesting. But the one that I remember the most, the interviewer in the book, this guy Howard Massey asked to producer, this guy called George Massenburg. And he was like, what's the number one mistake young producers make.

And his answer was thinking their shit is good. And he was like, listen to the records that make it really, really fucking listen. And then tell me your shit is good because it isn't now go back to the drawing board. So he was making a case for like very self-critical comparison to the, to the list or to the, to the records that go with the records that are timeless.

And I think there's, there's merit in that. You just have to be careful that you don't let it undermine those original because in that first, in that first doodle, you know, in that first moment, when you're sketching out a design on a piece of paper, if I rock up with the very best graphic design ever and say like, okay, Michael, how does you know, how does this work compare with this work.

This is the distillation of a genius, his career, a 40 year arc. And you've picked his best piece of work. And you're bringing it to this moment when, when I'm just, just sketching. The first thing, this is a riff. That's not going to start anyone. Um, but at the same time being in denial, that, that, that, that's where the that's the high water mark.

That's not going to serve you either. I would also add that we sometimes bring that ourselves. So like there's times where I knew, um, with, uh, the hit labs specifically, there are posts that I make that are all illustration. It's like the one client where I'm illustrating more than any other client. So two things have happened early on, which I now know will happen.

And so I, I am able to navigate through them, which is one believing like how good of an illustrator am I? And I can find instantly infinite number of illustrators that are amazing and better than better than I'll ever be, because I don't even want to be an illustrator, but for this brand, it makes more sense to do that.

Right. Um, and the other part is getting like, it's this comparison before the idea is even in existence, like before the sketch happens, you're like, well, it's this theater rums like, well, you know, there's nothing. You know, like there's literally a, it might be, but there's nothing there, you know, like, um, and I think that happens often too, and I think that's, uh, a trap we can get into, um, is like before you even create, what are you going in already thinking, um, what's already like loaded in your head.

Um, what comparison might be kind of like a latent comparison there's just sitting in your head. Um, yeah. Before the pen touches the paper before the first idea even comes to mind and that that's definitely, that's definitely a sort of a vote for right drunk, you know, vote for free play for sort of, as you know, and we talked earlier about the utility of channeling another person's voice, having, having a little version of spider in my brain or you or John or whoever my wife, and when I'm making decisions or choices.

But, you know, when you channel a critic that that may not be in those, in those early moments may not be helpful. Um, you know, I feel a little bit, self-conscious giving advice on that kind of creativity because I'm not a songwriter. I'm not, uh, I'm not that kind of creative what I do. I'm around them every day.

And I do see the pitfalls, you know, I do have a perspective on it and I do want, you know, I, I want the best for all of my clients and all of my collaborators and all of my friends. I want them to do the. Most interesting, most creative, most generative work, you know? Yeah. Um, you mentioned place, so I think we should get into it.

Um, I would say this topic for me became a topic solely because of your children. That became an area of re-investigation. Um, I guess really investigation because I hadn't thought about play, um, directly since I was a child and the word play was used and was allowed to be used in like a day-to-day setting.

Right. Um, as I got older, that word just wasn't really in the vocabulary of people around me, there was no real reason to mention that word. Um, and then I meet your children and it's like, we're playing the whole time and remembering, like play as a concept, play as all the functions it serves and, and sort of the infinite functions it could serve.

Um, so I had to include this one. Um, and I'd love to know your take on play, how it's evolved and maybe even how it's evolved because of your children. Yeah. I mean, they're so. On believably. Yes. And, you know, so for, for client or for new clients, for people who might be listening, who don't know what yes.

And means. So in, in improv, you know, classic and like second city or, or, um, so, uh, what would you call it? The, um, yeah, it used to be a Groundhog, uh, ground links. Um, so the classic improv schools, the comedy improv schools that all of the SNL people come out of all the welfare roads, all the Tina, Fey's, all of those people, Steve corral.

And they all come from this improv school. And yes. And is when you, when you're improvising with someone. So Michael and I started improv and Michael says, uh, the improv starts with there's no script. And Michael says, I'm feeling sick. You know what? I can't do what I should never do. The golden rule is never say, no, you're not, or why it's just, yes.

And oh, you're sick. What happened? You know? Or can I help you? Whatever, you always respond with the SN and it's really hard to do in real improv. I did, uh, we, I talked about it some on Mike, but I did an improv course at second city, like eight years ago. And, and my wife at the same time did one at a Groundlings and they were, it was crazy how much I learned from that.

But just the concept of yes, like I can go to my children from the second they wake until the second they fall asleep and. I'm an alien, you're a Wolf. And they're like, they'll just start growling at me. And like immediately we're in Wolf and alien mode. Like there is never a, there's never, that's not a good idea or aliens don't meet wolves.

Like aliens are in space, walls, runners. It's just, yes. End always that kind of, so that, that energy is just so infectious because every time you bubble up an idea, um, a RIF, a concept, anything it's met with enthusiasm, it's met with like, oh yeah, let's go like, and it's so much fun. And that is definitely the kind of atmosphere you want to create in, uh, in the initial role divergent place when you're making art.

When you're, when you're designing, when you're making songs, when you're grading visual art, whatever it is that sort of open-ended yes. And fearless, warm, safe place to sort of take risks. And of course at the very end of mixing or worst mastering, you know, I get the probably once a month, I'll get someone in mastering and their, and their notes back to the mastering.

They're like, this is great. Can we turn up the guitar? And the second chorus? It's like, no, we can't because I'm a mastering engineer. And I only work with the stereo. That's a mixed question. And then we, maybe we go back or maybe we don't, um, people who want to deliver. You know, they in the process, that's not so useful.

And I I've been one of those too, but that kind of yes, and energy and that playful energy and just the acknowledgement that that's where the good stuff comes from. And it doesn't necessarily come from followed brow grind. Sometimes it comes from easy Freeplay and we all have read the interview with someone who says, you know, they'll be asked about a song and they'll be like, well, that song took four years to write.

I had the first verse, I had nothing. And then I met this guy and I got the hook. And then another song they'd be like, oh yeah, I wrote that in seven minutes. I sat down and literally it came out of my face and into a voice recorder. And that was it. You know? And, and those moments of just, you know, free play, where it just comes out of you.

Good ideas are just coming, not getting into critical mode, not getting into, uh, written, not even really thinking at all. That's crucial. I think protecting those and creating situations where they can happen more often. So like I was thinking this morning about my discomfort around. Just even talking about creativity.

And I, I was thinking about this. One of the things I did before the girls came home was I had some friends that I would play music with. So if you think about my, like I say, I started playing when I was 18 and recording and all that. Basically I played in bands a bunch and, and did some live stuff and whatever.

But then from about, say 25 to 35, when I moved to the S the U S I played and played and played less and recorded mixed, produced, mastered more and got less and less creative, I suppose, you know, at its simplest. And, but one of the things I did when I came here is I started playing again. I had some guitars at home and I had more free time because I, I was just sort of establishing a new rhythm here.

Um, and, and my wife's work allowed me to not have to make all, like, I didn't have to make all the money every month. Like she was making good money and we had some freedom before the guards came home. So I played music with these guys all older than me. They were all in their fifties and they were in various ways, very established musicians.

So one of them had been in Charlotte crow's Tuesday night music club and had done a bunch of really heavy jazz work. Another guy was, was, um, used to play with Lucinda Williams. And I had produced a bunch of records for her. Another guy was this Indian sorority player, which is kind of like a sitar kind of instrument that had been schooled by like a heavy.

Sort of classical musician in India and we would get together for these Wednesday morning gems. And what was really interesting was it was just a three or four hour kind of freeform musical thing we would, but I would start all of the gems. I would originate every single piece of music. So I would start playing something, some kind of picking pattern or some riff or some groove and they would take it and run.

But I was thinking how odd that seems to me now to be the originator of ideas, you know, to be the, to be the little spring where the, where the water trickles out and then other people take it and do something with it, you know? Um, but that is, oh, no, I just, um, but what that, what was really interesting is, you know, how we created a space for that to happen.

So we would get together at 10 30 and one of the guys' houses, phones would go on silent. We would have coffee and talk about life stuff. And then we would just sort of ease into playing. There was no plan. We never recorded anything properly. We never did gigs. We never captured anything. They were just, they were just played for its own sake, just little meditations.

Um, everyone in their own way had achieved stuff in their life, musically. Um, so we weren't trying to achieve it. They were just pure, joyful little play sessions. And I had another band. Then it was like this punk rock, crazy jam thing. That was also another version of that, but very loud. Um, and again, I was the originator of all of the hooks, which just seems funny to me, you know?

I mean, I think it's in all of us. I think that the way this stuff kind of gets limited is where we, as soon as we say it, I mean, as soon as we start limiting, whether it's some narrative about why you can or can't, I mean, I think about guitar, like, um, I, my acoustic here, I, I was thinking about when I used to live with my parents, I was rarely playing loud, expressive.

Do you get a full music? Cause it felt very vulnerable. I felt like I couldn't. And then that carries over into other environments and then like the other day, like I haven't written in so long. So arguably I could say to myself, maybe I lost it. Like maybe I can't run songs anymore, but I, I was at Mike's when I was in LA, everyone was out of the apartment.

I had this guitar and I wrote like eight different ideas that I've been still listening to. Um, and I really love, and I love how they turned out, but it was because there was like no one around, it was just pure freedom to do whatever. Yeah. That I would do. And then it was like, in that moment, all of a sudden it's like, oh yeah, I'm a song writer again.

And it's like, no, like you're always where you just weren't doing it. Um, and there, I think this idea of identity is so harmful in that way, because, you know, if you're the originator of ideas, does that mean you always have to originate, you know, like it starts to beg that kind of question, subconsciously uh, if I'm a singer songwriter or do I always have to write songs or like, can I not, can I go five years without writing a song?

Um, you know, but I think, uh, hold on, can you give a sense of, yes, we are. We've recorded all the live, so this will be, uh, left, uh, on my page. Um, yeah, I feel like the narrative is so important, I think for all of these things, but also the other thing that came to mind when you were talking is with the jam.

It's like, there's this instilled trust in there? You know, like knowing no one's going to hear it. No, one's going to judge it on Spotify. We're not going to be thinking about plays. Like I just have to, um, play period. Like you never sent the bird and you even mess up. Like I could recover like the thought of messing up in your playing versus like messing up when someone's getting, when you think the thing you're going to make is going to be heard is such a different thing.

Just the thought of it. What it triggers me is so different. So yeah, I felt like that was generating all these ideas so quickly and, you know, I really love them and connect with them because of that. It was just like, I can't fail here. There's an, it's not going anywhere if I don't want it to go anywhere.

And I'm just going to play loud. Yeah. You think, you think about like creating the conditions for one of the notes. I made some notes last night of just stuff that were sort of rattling around in my brain. But you think about creating the conditions for, um, you know, creative play and your, your trip to LA.

So you you're, you're in a comfortable space, lots of light. You have that sort of singing in the shower freedom because there's no one around and, and, and you're stimulated by, okay, it's not, you lived here, but it's still there's that, that reset of new sounds, new cities, new smells, new, new food, whatever that sort of a liveliness that comes from context changing, like when you travel.

So you've got that going on. You're, you know, you're not down to your last dollar in the bank, so you have, you know, you're not, you're not way up, um, or sort of way down at the bottom of, of the, uh, Maslow's hierarchy, which. There's we know that that isn't really, it's more complex than they say, but basically you're not trying to figure out where your next meal is coming from.

So you can actually sort of allow your mind to drift up into, into sort of creative mode without having to worry about sort of basics like shelter. And so it's a lot of the right conditions for play and, and that's really, I mean, I think that's really important for people to consider what are, what are the conditions and can I, can I set them, can I, can I make them available to other people?

You know, like when I'm starting a meeting, it is another kind of play. Is there a way that I can encourage other people to play, to, to rift to have ideas? How do we, how do we create conditions that are, that are beneficial? You know? Um, definitely. Um, I was thinking about this with my class the other day.

Um, so I had interviewed, I teach on Wednesday, so this evening I'm going to be teaching. Um, and I interviewed, uh, Molly Fletcher last week and we Swami started the call. We were just kind of slowly ramping up into it. And we were talking about like hand massages and like wrist massage is an arms cause she's a bottlenose.

So. All the things that she does to get ready. And so then we just started massaging the different areas because my God, I've never done that. Like, can you show me what you did? So we did that then in my class, like I started the class off and was like, Hey, I did this earlier. All of you guys are using your hands.

Like, let's just all do this for the next five minutes. And like, everyone was obviously like, initially very confused and like uncomfortable. I'm like, what does this have to do with user experience design? But it felt like this moment to disarm everyone, um, no pun intended, like to really massage the arms and like massage the area that you're using all the time in a way to bring, you know, a focus to, um, the part that they may have been neglecting the most.

Um, but also to just do something that isn't school, like if this is school, if school is slides and lectures, then massaging your arm is not. And so now you're just in this new space. Um, so yeah, there's a kind of a, there's a kind of a wakefulness that you, that, that in genders. And I, and I think, you know, we talk about an, all of the smart people that we listened to, you know, across all of these podcasts that we're all obsessed with our brains being prediction machines, When, when the kids sits down with their laptop open to take your class and they've taken some classes before they take all their classes online, their brain is like, I know what this is.

I got this Mike, and let's, let's turn off these other systems. That's just, you know, because the brain is trying to allocate resources. It's like, how little resource can I allocate to this thing? And just a simple move like that can, can wake up, um, all the system to be, to be more alive. And I think those little, I hate the word hacks, but those little hacks, you know, that's why, you know, traveling, uh, you know, when we traveled to a new place and there's new sites, new sounds new smells.

Our body is on alert. It's a kind of heightened awareness because we can't, our predictions are not as effective. Wait, we're in a dark place that smells different that, so our, our prediction machine is not working as well. So, so where we have to be more aware and that awareness feels exciting. It feels good.

It feels new. It feels, you know, so if you can create a little bit of that in a creative mode, and then the counter point to that again is always, this tension is like, you know what John talks about with these mixing is like, how can I delete all of those things? So I can just be. I can just be in that sort of tiger woods golf swing thing, where the last thing you want to do in the middle of a golf swing is thing about it.

You know, you want to, you want it, it needs to just be pure muscle memory, flow state sort of, um, thought free move, you know? So, um, I think if you think about things like playing, excuse me, things like playing as, um, as a tool