WEBVTT
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Hi, this is Drinks with Shrinks.
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Hi.
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Uh this is Peter and Jessica.
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Nice to see all of you.
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Oh, actually, we can't see any of you, but that's okay.
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But you can see us if you're watching this or listen to us.
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So we're so glad to be with you again.
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This is our second time in the last two weeks.
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This is we're more on a roll now than we have been in the last uh several years.
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Maybe we just keep going at this point.
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I'm I'm fully down for that.
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I think that's great.
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Yeah, no, that's awesome.
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So today's episode, we're going to talk about when people should apologize or when should somebody apologize.
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So um Jessica, you asked a good question on uh whether or not this is going to be something like a relationship relationship, you know, if this is, you know, if you're maybe in a marriage, but I I wanted to kind of give it across the board.
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Uh just do it across the board.
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Like, you know, when should people apologize?
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Um, so maybe we should just describe why why does anybody have to get to that point and who should, who shouldn't, what is an apology?
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You know, I suppose who wants to you want to get started?
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You want to answer some of those?
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Some of those too.
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How would you uh yeah?
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What would you say?
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Yeah, what would you say?
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So, you know, I definitely think an apology is a form of of repair.
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Um, if I can put it in that category for a minute.
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And and I also think it's something that we're doing when we can own a slice of responsibility for something, realistic responsibility for something.
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Um because I definitely, you know, one time I was asked, what would your game be?
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Like board game, and I was like, oh, sorry, because I I tend to say sorry a lot myself.
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So I'm on my own journey, if you will, with this.
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But um, no, I think it's truly when you're able to look at something and say, you know, I can want a part of something here.
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There's something here for me to grow from, learn from, and not just saying it to say it.
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Um, what are your thoughts on what it looks like, when to say it, or who might say it?
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I'm sorry, I'm laughing.
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Yes, you do have a tendency.
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You don't say you're getting better though, Jessica.
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You're getting a whole lot better.
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I'm kidding.
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Um, uh we should yeah, maybe it's a Catholic background, maybe it's the Catholic.
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No, I I uh no, no, that's good.
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I mean, I think an ap an apology is is I I I mean, I think it's generally I like to differentiate it between guilt and shame.
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I mean, if you're feeling guilty and you're saying sorry, that's one thing.
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Um, you know, if you're if you're and plus I think there's a difference between I'm you know, and that's why I'm picking on you.
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Sometimes you'll say, I'm sorry if you're giving me a call.
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I don't think you're ever saying like you're feeling guilty or shameful.
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It's just more like, hey, I'm calling you at a weird time.
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So that's one thing.
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And I do that too.
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I'm like, oh, sorry to interrupt, or something like that, which is very different from actually saying I'm sorry when you're feeling guilty.
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Um, and then sorry, but sorry from a place of shame is very, very different because that's very in, that's that's inward, and that almost puts it back on the other person to um, you know, almost like, you know, fix something that that I can't necessarily uh fix.
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In fact, it's it's it's uh it's an inward attack almost.
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Um yeah, almost like a rejection of the self.
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Whereas sorry, when you're feeling guilty, it's like, man, I I I I I didn't reach my potential.
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I didn't do what I think my values call me to do, or I'm not in line with my values, which I think is can be very freeing.
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If my value is to be like a good father and I'm to be patient with my child, right?
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Well, you know, there are times I'm not patient.
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And I've got and if I go to my child and I say, hey buddy, I'm sorry, or hey, sweetie, I'm so sorry.
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Daddy was a little impatient.
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That's that actually feels good.
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But if I'm very goal-driven and then I don't accomplish my goal, and then I am a failure for that, and then I look at myself as a sorry person, that's very different.
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Now I'm like self-punishing.
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So I should probably say that.
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There's there are different types of apologies out there.
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There's the general apologies that we all kind of give throughout the day, guilt, a place of guilt-driven apologies, which can be freeing if I've messed up according to my values, and then I would say shame-driven apologies that that end up, you know, kind of doing damage to ourselves.
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That's not very anyway.
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That's the way I would kind of categorize it a little better.
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100%.
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And I think the repair type of apology falls more into the guilt one, where it's kind of looking at because the difference for me between guilt and shame is one where guilt I can recognize as a maybe a behavior as an example or something I felt into outside of myself that I can I can say, okay, but that's not how I define myself.
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Shame to me is more I am, right?
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And and I think when if there's a feeling of guilt and we're looking back saying, ah, you know, I I could have maybe handled that differently.
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That's so different.
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And it's also something that can be really empowering when you're able to say, you know, I'm sorry for what?
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I can name the behavior, I can differentiate myself from that and use it as a platform to say moving forward, this is what I want to do, like a teaching moment, if you will.
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Like this is a way I'm learning from this experience and how I want to hold it in a way moving forward where it's it's helping me to grow versus something that's keeping me stuck.
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Um I don't know.
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What are your thoughts on that?
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Oh, I was yeah, I liked it.
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I was listening to you.
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Yeah.
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Uh getting, yeah, feeling like a place of how can you elaborate a little bit more on that?
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When you what do you mean by like uh, you know, I feeling it from a place of being stuck?
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I don't know if you wanted to elaborate a little bit more.
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Like feeling stuck.
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So when you when you're growing in in that scenario, right?
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I'm I'm saying this is something that now I'm aware of this impact or I see that part of it, and this is what I'm gonna do differently moving forward.
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Like I'm integrating it in a way into myself where it's it's teaching me a different way of showing up that's meaningful and in align with my values, yeah, on some level, versus feeling stuck.
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It it's kind of like if I am the issue and I'm like, where do I go from there?
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Right.
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To me, it's just you're staying trapped in a negative way of thinking about yourself that isn't like a more of a fixed versus growth mindset, right?
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I'm staying wrapped in kind of now this identity, if you will, that may or may not be aligned with my values, but I I haven't integrated feedback in a way or seen myself in that feedback in a certain way that allows me to move forward with it.
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I don't strictly that's a stream of consciousness there.
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Yeah, no, I love that.
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Were you taught?
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Do you ever apply ACT acceptance commitment therapy?
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I love ACT, yes.
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Uh yeah, I've been doing that so much for a lot of my clients, and we should probably explain to our um listeners what ACT is.
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So ACT is acceptance commitment therapy.
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I really encourage you all to get this book.
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It's called Act Made Simple by Russ Harris.
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This is fantastic, both for clinicians but also for the general public.
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But he talks, he talks a lot about when we get fused to, you know, act is acceptance, commitment therapy.
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Like all suffering comes from fusion, which is when a thought sticks on you, and then avoidance, we try to make that thought go away.
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And then we have remoteness to our values, which often comes from self-concept.
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We start to compare.
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I love that whole model.
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That's actually where I get a lot of my um, you know, I do a lot of my work when it comes to apologies, because if you're if you're defusing from your thoughts, you're saying, okay, I'm having the thought that, and it's and I'm, you know, that I was, you know, rude to my son last night, right?
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Or or rude to my partner last night, or my husband, or my wife.
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And I'm just kind of accepting it rather than trying to avoid it.
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That prevents the defensiveness could go down that Gottman often talks about.
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We all can get defensive, we all can be rude from time to time.
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I mean, I'm definitely right.
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I wrote a blog, even post on on Medium.
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Y'all could go check it out.
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It's called Why I'm Rude.
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Um, it's very free to write that.
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I loved it, you know.
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So I'm from Boston.
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It's like, you know, come if anybody from around the country wants to place where you can just be rude and we'll still love you, come to Boston.
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Um, yeah, we still love you.
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No, but like, you know, and and that's and I'm accepting that.
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And then the context of my story, let's say that I saw nine patients in a row last night, I had four hours of sleep, or my child was up all night long.
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Okay, that's putting me in the context of my story.
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And then I when I instead of having remoteness in my values, I know what my values are.
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And let's say my values is to be a patient father.
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Well, I could then easily apologize because I wasn't, it's workable because it wasn't in line with my values.
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That's act in a nutshell, which I really love because it teaches psychological flexibility rather than rigidity, which would say, okay, I'm fused.
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Oh, I was so impatient with my wife or my husband.
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Oh, shoot, no, I wasn't.
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She didn't understand, or uh, and then I'm struggling, and then I'm having this argument with myself.
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And then there's self-concept in the sense of like, well, he's not impatient or she's not impatient.
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And now I start feeling shame, and then I have no idea what my values are, and I think that's where we get a lot of defensiveness, a lot of criticism.
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It's like, well, you made me do this, or or we go inward because and which doesn't feel good.
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I think shame turns toward externalization because shaming ourselves is is so damaging for the long run.
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So it's so much easier to turn it back as a place of control.
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If I could just blame Jessica, right?
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Rather than blame myself, I get a little bit of relief.
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But again, that relief is is debilitating because then it goes back to self-blame and then blaming you, and then self-blame and blaming you, and it's exhausting.
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It's just except that's what I love about act because it's just kind of like defuse your thoughts, accept, um, you know, root yourself in your values.
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Okay, fine.
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I wasn't, I wasn't patient.
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Great.
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What's the committed action?
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What's workable?
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I'm gonna go talk to my son or my partner or my daughter and just say, Hey, I wasn't in a good place yesterday.
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I love you, sweetie.
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You know, that's it.
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Let's move on.
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I like how it corresponds really well with like Dottman's taking responsibility for your defensiveness.
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So I think that's what we mean by apology.
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I mean, that's that's a good place to be.
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Um, but shame does a lot of damage, doesn't it?
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Because I mean, you you and I see it is clinically.
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I mean, what what what are some things that you've seen how shame will actually take apologies?
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And they are it it actually it makes them so much worse, both for ourselves but also for other people.
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What ways have you seen it as a couples therapist, for example?
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Like how shame uh takes apologies and it really kind of dilutes them.
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Well, and I don't know if this is what you're referring to.
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For some reason, this is kind of the first thing that popped into my head, but for me, when when shame is in the room and it I feel like it puts the onus on the other person, you know.
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Um I might so if it's not necessarily coming from a defensive place, um like I'm not overtly maybe um attacking or criticizing you, right?
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But I feel like I'm a bad person here, or I'm what I also can see happen is since now I'm the other person to make me feel better about this thing, if that if that lands where instead of it being a conversation about, and then is anything really getting fixed in in the scheme of things because now there's this deeper cycle happening where I'm in a conflict with myself.
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And I think that's the piece in order to move forward and heal, it's like that defusion, if you will, where we need to separate the incident from our sense of self so that we can move forward, whether it be with our partner, our friend, whoever, where it's like now there's a pathway on what we can do differently, a constructive plan, if you will, for how to move forward.
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When that stays within myself, now I'm the issue.
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How does that inform other interactions moving forward?
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If I am the problem, so to speak, right?
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It's not that also can I imagine trigger um other conversations where I might hear something and I might also be more prone to that I'm just hearing on the problem because that's my own narrative.
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So it's all going through that filter.
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And then if there is something wrong that we truly need to address, and maybe an apology is warranted, is that then repair happening?
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And does over time that lead into potentially even a more contemptuous place where maybe the other partner doesn't feel quite hurt because I'm trying to address this thing that hurt me or had this impact on me, but it gets the conversation stops because of the shame spiral.
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So when I say making it about the other person, that's kind of the cycle that sometimes I see.
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I don't know if that's what you were referring to.
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Did you see it show up in other ways?
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Yeah, very much.
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I that was I was really listening to you, and it's fascinating.
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I like how you brought up the contempt, is really starts from the place of um the hatred within ourselves, like the disappointment, I should say, within ourselves.
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Yeah.
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And it starts with that more than just it's so easy to think of contempt, you know, because it's disgust outward, but it's actually often starts with contempt toward myself.
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And then that that, yeah, it it transfers over to disgust toward the other person because it, yeah.
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If it could see you as dirty, I don't have to see myself as just as dirty, which makes it yeah, it makes it easier, quote unquote.
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Um protective mechanism almost.
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Yeah.
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And yeah, that's the delusion too, because Gottman's done a lot of work on how contempt will decrease your heart or excuse me, de-age your heart really by 15 years.
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Um heart rate, blood pressure, all that stuff really goes up significantly when you uh have contempt toward other people.
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So huh.
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Yeah, and I yeah, I wonder what the relief is.
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Uh, but I I liked how you were saying like contempt toward yourself first and then it it transfers over.
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Yeah.
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What do you see as the impacts of shame?
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You know, in this process that can happen.
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Um yeah, I think it's I think it comes down to, I mean, I think at the end of the day, I think we're not we're not okay with failure.
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I see this, I I think I I used to do a lot of play therapy with kids and I learned a lot about where a lot of psychological theories probably come from.
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And almost every kid I would I would do I would do like a game with, um they were not at a good place primarily by how they handled a loss of an Uno game.
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And um that little thing can tell you everything about how he handles or she handles stuff at school.
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Uh when they get uh constructive feedback by their parent, when they get constructive feedback by their coach, I I think one of the worst things you can do is let your kid win.
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Um, never ever, in my opinion, I don't think you ever want to do that.
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You actually want to get your kid to be okay if they lose a nuno game, because you can you can really teach a lot of stuff by it's okay, buddy.
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It's just a game, right?
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And parents, I think when they quote, let their kids win, the problem with that, or even I was tempted to do that as well, but I never did, and I'm glad I never did, because if he became really temperamental or she became really angry, we would talk about that.
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And you often would see a correlation within the semester that if they got to the point where they could shake my hand after a Nuno game and say, Thank you, Mr.
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Anderson, even though I lost three games, I had fun.
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High five.
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Cool, buddy.
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Yeah, Billy, I'll see you next week.
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Moms would actually come back to me and they would say, What are you doing, Billy?
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Like, what are you guys talking about?
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And they thought it was like these deep, deep conversations.
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And I was like, No, I'm he's just getting better at Uno, or he's he's okay with losing a Uno.
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And she's like, Yeah, he's really handling things a whole lot better.
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That I don't think that's small.
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I think when we don't handle failure well early on, and we don't ever deal with that very well through life, we then um I think I don't know if this is answering your question, but like, you know, I think that's where shame starts to just fester.
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And then over time, uh it it just has to go outward.
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It does.
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And then we don't know how, and then everything that seems like everything that's a quote constructive feedback sounds like a criticism, sounds like a it sounds like an attack.
00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:21.519
Um, when it, you know, it's like, hey Peter, can you be a little bit more on time?
00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:27.519
Or hey, Jessica, would you mind um you know, listening to both of us when we're a couple?
00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:28.880
I I'm just giving examples, right?
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:30.799
The thing we all do.
00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:35.359
And rather than seeing that as, oh, cool, yeah, I lost the you know game.
00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:36.160
That's that's fine.
00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:38.000
We see that as like a personal attack.
00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:40.079
And when we do that, we go inward.
00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:51.839
Um, and then we no longer differentiate between shame and guilt, which is such a which which does us a real disservice in our in our relationships, um, from childhood all the way to adulthood, I would say.
00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:54.160
Uh, and that carries with us for a very, very long time.
00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:55.119
They've done studies.
00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:57.039
I think her name is Twin, what was her name?
00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:05.279
I can't remember, but you could look up, they did a they did a study um on incarcerated um uh inmates.
00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:26.240
And when they got out of prison, they did a follow-up study that the ones who were much better at just like taking ownership for their crime and saying, I'm gonna, you know, I did it and I messed up, they were much like less likely to go back to jail versus people that were just constantly saying, you know, I got a bad rap.
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:32.480
It's um, you know, I I I hate that I, you know, I got a I dwelt I got dealt a bad hand.
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:36.960
They were so much more likely to go right back to jail within the you know two or three years.
00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:41.680
So this this affects both like yeah, criminal behavior to just normal behavior.
00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:51.279
If we don't differentiate between just basic shame and guilt, it could, it could, it could go real, it it's a pretty significant contrast, yeah, I would say.
00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:52.799
No, I love that.
00:18:52.880 --> 00:19:13.200
And and that makes also so much sense to me, that study, because I imagine, even though this is not in the study, but again, if shame is something more like internal, if I frame it that way, then if if shame says you are quote unquote the problem, my choices just got a whole lot narrower, right?
00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:23.359
Versus if this behavior or this decision was an issue, I have a whole lot of room for what I can do around that thing.
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:38.240
I have a whole lot of pathways I can choose from because I'm kind of integrating in that feedback again in a way where it's like, okay, there's still a whole set of other choices that I can do that are different than that one set of behaviors or choices.
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:47.759
Um shame blocks that in my eyes a lot of the time because it's so internal focused, um, in some ways.
00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:48.559
Yeah.
00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:49.920
Yeah.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:55.039
How do how do you help um cope with shame and like where do you usually go?
00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:58.880
Uh like you know, exercises or tactics for you.
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:03.039
I mean, what about both as a marriage counselor and also maybe an individual therapist?
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:10.160
Yeah, I mean, so I love Brene Brown and I know she does a lot of work with shame and vulnerability.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:22.240
And um I really like what she talks about when she talks about how, you know, shame can exist in a space where there is compassion or or empathy.
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:34.480
And I think there's a lot to that where it's one, trying to discern what is a criticism versus a complaint in couples' work and how we're hearing that message.
00:20:34.640 --> 00:21:04.240
But then two, you know, how can I hold and shifting an I am statement into a statement about a behavior and really trying to also highlight the distinction between myself and my emotions, like just being able to recognize, non-identify, like diffuse um some of those aspects of a of a conversation and also in my own thought process, whoever is might be struggling with that shame.
00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:14.480
And for if I'm in a relationship, how can I also hold empathy and and space for my partner to go through that process?
00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:16.079
How do we slow it down?
00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:23.599
Where I'm not just hearing that as a pushback to this feedback, but like acknowledging what is in the room with us.
00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:25.519
I'm a big fan of externalizing things.
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:28.480
So sometimes I'm like, okay, shame's in the room with us.
00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:32.960
That impacts both of you in different ways, and it also impacts this relationship in different ways.
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:37.519
So you both aren't the enemy here, but shame kind of is right now.
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:44.079
So, how can we both understand that its impacts on us before we proceed forward?
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:59.599
So, just kind of how do we increase awareness and attunement to when it's present and what that looks like, and then starting to for the folder of shame to build and bake in some of that self compassion um for oneself and also again to not identify.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.440
With certain emotions.
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:04.240
Like they're part of my experience, but I am not.
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:08.880
Um, for example, I might have made a disrespectful comment.
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:12.799
That does not inherently mean I am a disrespectful person.
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:15.119
Is that right?
00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:16.480
Yeah, I like that.
00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:16.799
Yeah.
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.000
So it's kind of separating the behaviors from the actual person.
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:24.799
So you try to like take less personification, personified approach from it.
00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:26.400
Like I'm yeah, that makes sense.
00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:26.799
Yeah.
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:27.039
Yeah.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:27.920
What about you?
00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:34.720
What tend what do you tend to find is helpful when shame is in the room with people you're working with?
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:46.480
Well, yeah, that's um I I going back to act, I I I love love, um, I love the whole concept of self and context um rather than self-concept.
00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:52.079
You know, self-concept, I think really does come that's that's shame in a nutshell.
00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:53.839
I mean, we take eating disorder, right?
00:22:54.000 --> 00:23:23.279
So a typical client who struggles with eating disorder, he or she likely is comparing themselves to some model in their brain that's not well, one um probably objectively attractive if you ask the opposite sex that they're heterosexual, and two, it's so idealistically outside of the boundaries that they can never achieve it.
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:25.759
And so immediately create shame.
00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:29.920
And that's the that's the premise of all eating disorders, right there, in a nutshell.
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:35.519
They there is some there's some ideal that they don't feel like they fulfill, and so they starve themselves.
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:38.319
And so self in context is very different.
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:59.039
Self in context says, No, I want you to imagine that there's nine other people in the room, and let's say, for example, I I have like a parents of cutoff group, you know, so their self-concept may say, you know, well, this parent has a great relationship with their children, even though they're probably were worse parents than I was.
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:02.079
I wasn't cut off from my kids five years ago.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:06.799
Well, my my ex-husband's not cut off from my kids, therefore I'm a bad mom.
00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:08.240
That's self-concept.
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:09.839
And so shame comes in.
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:18.319
But what act does is says, no, put yourself, you're still going so you're your comparison's still outside the bounds of imagination here.
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:21.119
And what you want to do is look at the self in context.
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:23.119
So I like to think of it as like a book.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:42.720
So then I what I often tell clients is imagine there's nine other people in the room, and you know, all nine of those other people also had their kids cut them off, and they also had an ex-husband that or ex-part wife who parentified the child.
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:54.400
Um, and they also uh got to the point where they're um, you know, all they had a great relationship, and then all of a sudden they just have no contact for the past three years.
00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:55.039
Yeah.
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:57.200
Um how's her depression?
00:24:57.359 --> 00:24:58.400
How's his depression?
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:03.279
How's his how does he have the thought of just like just wanting to hide?
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:09.279
And so what that does, it like it normalizes the thoughts that are really negative that they're experiencing.
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:12.319
As yeah, this is this is literally, yeah.
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:21.920
Frodo was one place when he was having butterbeer with with you know with all the hobbits, but he's at a totally different place when he's on on Mordor, you're right.
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:31.839
And he it's just like it's the same character, but the context of a story and the chapter that he's in radically changes on how we perceive him, and you're the same way.
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:40.079
And I love that because self in context, it you can't look at where you were five years ago or where Jessica was at or where your neighbor may have been.
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:52.319
You have to look at people that are in your story, and if they are having these same negative thoughts, because shame is often like an argument with yourself that you wish you weren't thinking a certain thing.
00:25:52.559 --> 00:26:01.519
And if you can just kind of like accept that some of these thoughts are just part of the game, um, you know, then the shame goes out.
00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:05.759
Now you may feel guilty, which is fine because now you're rooting yourself in your value system.
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.920
You're saying what's aligned with my values.
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:12.559
So I I found that to be really helpful for for a lot of my clients who feel a lot of shame.
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:20.640
I want you to imagine nine other people in the room with you that are literally like if you had a miscarriage, for example, there's a lot of shame with miscarriages.
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:21.839
Maybe there's something wrong with my body.
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:23.359
Oh, I shouldn't be feeling that way.
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:25.599
Or and then they're arguing with themselves.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:31.440
And well, there's maybe shame in, I don't know, my my my kid is addicted to drugs, whatever it is.
00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:36.559
Or my husband, my husband lost his job due to alcoholism.
00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:47.359
And they start to compare themselves, you know, with with everybody else in the family, and and they they just kind of feel this embarrassment, and then they feel bad that they're even having these thoughts of embarrassment.
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:51.680
But if they can change it to the context of their story, it really it reframes it for them.
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:54.880
I found that to be really helpful anyway.
00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:56.559
Yeah, no, a hundred percent.
00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:05.279
And I think you know, I love what you were talking about, just how important that context is, and especially too, sometimes with that comparative thinking that can happen.
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:09.279
You know, just self and context is so pivotal.
00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:11.839
I I I really love that point.
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:13.839
Um well then, yeah.
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:15.359
I know we only have a little time we have.
00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:17.119
We should talk about apology then.
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:18.559
Yeah, right.
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:26.160
So now we should uh maybe end on um so when when is uh when when do we apologize too much?
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:29.200
And is there such a thing as apologizing too much?
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:31.839
And um I'd love to get your thoughts on that.
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:33.119
When should you apologize?
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:34.880
When should you not apologize?
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:37.039
Yeah, what let's just yeah.
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:43.839
So I'm leaning in a little bit, I guess, now to jump in to more dialectical behavioral therapy.
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:46.880
And the one thing that pops into my mind is like that fast acronym.
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:53.200
So there, or it will say apologies or no in parentheses, apologies, stick to values and truthful.
00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:56.720
And so that second A apology.
00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:08.799
Then what comes to mind is I think sometimes we can over-apologize for things, for example, such as having an opinion or a different point of view or disagreeing, or um, even potentially for making a certain type of request.
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:15.440
And I think that's where it's important to say no, hold on.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:17.279
That is okay.
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:20.720
To I think how we do it is important, right?
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:22.480
If we're having a disagreement, right?
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:30.880
It doesn't maybe open up the space to attack the other person for having a different point of view, right?
00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:39.279
But I do think just because there is an inherent difference does not mean that then I need to apologize for that, right?
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:44.640
Um, or for even having a different potentially set of values, right?
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:54.319
If so, I think that's where it's important to kind of sit with yourself for a minute and say, hold on, like what am I actually apologizing for?
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:57.680
And where am I fitting that in?
00:28:57.759 --> 00:28:59.519
How am I making sense of that?
00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:17.680
Versus just also saying something to say it, because I think that's what the like if I encourage people too, like it's important that you when you're when whenever you're offering an apology, and other people will probably pick up on it, is am I doing it in a genuine way?
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:18.559
Right too.
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:35.599
Like, and when I say genuine, what I mean is, am I doing it just to say it to avoid an issue, or because I think it's what I need to do, or am I doing it because again, it's in alignment with my values, and I see here where I acted in a way that was outside of my values.
00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:47.279
Um, but I'm not just saying it because I think it's what the other person wants to hear, or because I'm I'm stating something that's different than what the person potentially wants to hear.
00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:51.759
Uh that's so that comes to mind, long story short.
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:56.400
What about how do you differentiate when versus not to?
00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:57.440
What are your thoughts?
00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:00.400
No, you you uh took the thought right on my that's perfect.
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:02.960
Yeah, I haven't found something better than the fast either.
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:07.519
Fine, you know, and to summarize again, well, you know, it's uh dialectical behavioral therapy.
00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:13.200
If y'all look up interpersonal communication, there's dear man, which is described.
00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:18.240
This is this is when you're speaking, express your emotion, assert your need, reinforce.
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:22.559
In other words, how the reinforcement and the need go together when you're doing that.
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:27.920
So, for example, hey babe, we're going on dates and we're staring at our phones.
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:31.359
I feel really, I've been feeling really irritated about that.
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:34.000
I need us not to look at our phones for the first 20 minutes.
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:37.039
I think I would be in a more talkative mood on the date.
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:38.960
Great, that's beautiful.
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:40.880
Um, you stay mindful when you're saying it.
00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:43.440
She may get a little defensive because we all get a little defensive.
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:44.880
We we're just defensive creatures.
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:45.759
I think we are.
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:46.559
We all are.
00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:48.720
I think that's just part of human evolution, personally.
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:51.359
So you stay mindful, natural, you know.
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:52.319
Yeah, I think we are.
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:54.079
I think we're just naturally that way.
00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:56.000
Um, so you may have to repeat it.
00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:59.359
It's like, no, I just I just don't want, I just don't want to look at my phones.
00:30:59.440 --> 00:30:59.759
That's it.
00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:03.920
You need to appear confident, give her eye contact, give him eye contact, negotiate.
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:10.000
So maybe especially if you're both working full time, maybe you know, not 20 minutes, maybe 15.
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:10.720
I don't know.
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:17.759
So, but you know, the listener's part is give, be genuine, be interested, validate, easygoing.
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.279
That's how you listen, communicate, listen, communicate.
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:27.440
But what holds you together, I love this at DBT is being fair to yourself, fair to the other person.
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:31.759
So it's not like you're just fair to you, nor are you just fair to them.
00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:33.119
That's codependency.
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:33.680
Right.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:41.519
You you make no unnecessary apologies for the dear man part, especially if it's coming from a place of um your core need.
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:50.720
Yeah, you seek what your values are and you state what your values are, um, and then you're truthful, you're truthful in line with those values, and that's what holds all relationships.
00:31:50.880 --> 00:32:00.319
So I love that because I think a lot of people won't they may apologize for a core need, and that's what creates that's literally what creates contempt.
00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:10.079
And then people get very nitpicky, and when they get really nitpicky, if you you see this in relationships, then people over apologize or they underapologize.
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:14.160
You're like, Well, you should apologize because you didn't come home at 10:05.
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:22.720
Or, you know, you we see this sometimes as couples therapists, or some of our couples will fight over why why do they fight over the dumbest things?
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:23.839
Well, it's very easy.
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.160
They don't know what their values are, it's that simple.
00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:36.160
Or they they or they feel like they're they've compromised on their values and they feel like they their values aren't being honored by the other partner, partner, so they focus on the tiniest little things.
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.440
I always tell people, no, I really want you to state what your values are.
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:45.359
Then you let go a lot and don't make unnecessary apologies if it's part of if it's part of your value system.
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:52.000
Um, you know, I really do so you know, no, I just need you home before the kids go to bed.
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:53.359
That's a value.
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:56.079
Not no, I need you home at 7 07.
00:32:56.400 --> 00:33:00.319
If you're not, it's you know, I'm like, okay, you know, stick to your value.
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:06.640
So and and don't apologize for telling your spouse I need you home before the kids go to bed.
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:07.519
That's great.
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:13.519
But you know, uh, um, anyway, so yeah, I I liked I I like fast a lot.
00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:21.119
I always encourage people that's so apologize when it's out of line with your values, uh summarize what we talked about today.
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:32.720
Um, don't apologize when it's part of your values value system, and um uh that yeah, I and try to be clear on that.
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:38.319
And difference between guilt and shame, and guilt and shame, true and how that might impact this process.
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:41.680
And yeah, and I don't know your thoughts on this.
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:45.039
Maybe we can surprise everyone with what we do next time.
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:50.720
I feel like another important conversation is forgiveness on the other end of this.
00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:52.880
Um yeah, yeah.
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:56.559
So maybe that's one maybe hey, maybe we talk about forgiveness next time.
00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:03.279
Well, um, I do have to I have a session in five minutes, and uh thanks guys for listening.
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:05.920
Well, thanks for listening to Drinks and Shrinks.
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:09.440
Uh, I'm your host, Peter Anderson, and Jessica Pacinas.
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:10.400
Good to see you guys.
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:11.920
Nice to see you all.
00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:13.119
Yeah, hear from you.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:18.400
Please yeah, write us, write us at Andersonfamtherapy at gmail.com.
00:34:18.559 --> 00:34:22.239
Make your uh let let your voice be known.
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:24.159
Anyway, but thanks for listening, y'all.
00:00:00.719 --> 00:00:02.240
Hi, this is Drinks with Shrinks.
00:00:02.479 --> 00:00:02.640
Hi.
00:00:02.959 --> 00:00:04.799
Uh this is Peter and Jessica.
00:00:04.959 --> 00:00:06.000
Nice to see all of you.
00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:08.240
Oh, actually, we can't see any of you, but that's okay.
00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:10.720
But you can see us if you're watching this or listen to us.
00:00:11.039 --> 00:00:12.640
So we're so glad to be with you again.
00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:14.640
This is our second time in the last two weeks.
00:00:14.720 --> 00:00:18.879
This is we're more on a roll now than we have been in the last uh several years.
00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:20.719
Maybe we just keep going at this point.
00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:22.879
I'm I'm fully down for that.
00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:24.000
I think that's great.
00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:25.679
Yeah, no, that's awesome.
00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:30.480
So today's episode, we're going to talk about when people should apologize or when should somebody apologize.
00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:44.799
So um Jessica, you asked a good question on uh whether or not this is going to be something like a relationship relationship, you know, if this is, you know, if you're maybe in a marriage, but I I wanted to kind of give it across the board.
00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:46.159
Uh just do it across the board.
00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:48.479
Like, you know, when should people apologize?
00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:56.880
Um, so maybe we should just describe why why does anybody have to get to that point and who should, who shouldn't, what is an apology?
00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:00.640
You know, I suppose who wants to you want to get started?
00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:01.600
You want to answer some of those?
00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:02.880
Some of those too.
00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:04.560
How would you uh yeah?
00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:05.519
What would you say?
00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:07.040
Yeah, what would you say?
00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:12.480
So, you know, I definitely think an apology is a form of of repair.
00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:16.400
Um, if I can put it in that category for a minute.
00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:26.079
And and I also think it's something that we're doing when we can own a slice of responsibility for something, realistic responsibility for something.
00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:32.319
Um because I definitely, you know, one time I was asked, what would your game be?
00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:37.519
Like board game, and I was like, oh, sorry, because I I tend to say sorry a lot myself.
00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:43.840
So I'm on my own journey, if you will, with this.
00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:52.400
But um, no, I think it's truly when you're able to look at something and say, you know, I can want a part of something here.
00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:58.640
There's something here for me to grow from, learn from, and not just saying it to say it.
00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:05.200
Um, what are your thoughts on what it looks like, when to say it, or who might say it?
00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:07.840
I'm sorry, I'm laughing.
00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:09.280
Yes, you do have a tendency.
00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:11.199
You don't say you're getting better though, Jessica.
00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:12.080
You're getting a whole lot better.
00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:12.719
I'm kidding.
00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:18.800
Um, uh we should yeah, maybe it's a Catholic background, maybe it's the Catholic.
00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:21.439
No, I I uh no, no, that's good.
00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:30.800
I mean, I think an ap an apology is is I I I mean, I think it's generally I like to differentiate it between guilt and shame.
00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:34.479
I mean, if you're feeling guilty and you're saying sorry, that's one thing.
00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:41.360
Um, you know, if you're if you're and plus I think there's a difference between I'm you know, and that's why I'm picking on you.
00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:43.520
Sometimes you'll say, I'm sorry if you're giving me a call.
00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:46.719
I don't think you're ever saying like you're feeling guilty or shameful.
00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:50.400
It's just more like, hey, I'm calling you at a weird time.
00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:51.680
So that's one thing.
00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:52.560
And I do that too.
00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:58.960
I'm like, oh, sorry to interrupt, or something like that, which is very different from actually saying I'm sorry when you're feeling guilty.
00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:16.560
Um, and then sorry, but sorry from a place of shame is very, very different because that's very in, that's that's inward, and that almost puts it back on the other person to um, you know, almost like, you know, fix something that that I can't necessarily uh fix.
00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:20.240
In fact, it's it's it's uh it's an inward attack almost.
00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:22.960
Um yeah, almost like a rejection of the self.
00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:28.560
Whereas sorry, when you're feeling guilty, it's like, man, I I I I I didn't reach my potential.
00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:36.159
I didn't do what I think my values call me to do, or I'm not in line with my values, which I think is can be very freeing.
00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:41.280
If my value is to be like a good father and I'm to be patient with my child, right?
00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:43.439
Well, you know, there are times I'm not patient.
00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:48.400
And I've got and if I go to my child and I say, hey buddy, I'm sorry, or hey, sweetie, I'm so sorry.
00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:49.680
Daddy was a little impatient.
00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:51.439
That's that actually feels good.
00:03:51.759 --> 00:04:04.240
But if I'm very goal-driven and then I don't accomplish my goal, and then I am a failure for that, and then I look at myself as a sorry person, that's very different.
00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:06.319
Now I'm like self-punishing.
00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:07.840
So I should probably say that.
00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:09.759
There's there are different types of apologies out there.
00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:24.560
There's the general apologies that we all kind of give throughout the day, guilt, a place of guilt-driven apologies, which can be freeing if I've messed up according to my values, and then I would say shame-driven apologies that that end up, you know, kind of doing damage to ourselves.
00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:26.000
That's not very anyway.
00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:28.560
That's the way I would kind of categorize it a little better.
00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:29.600
100%.
00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:52.560
And I think the repair type of apology falls more into the guilt one, where it's kind of looking at because the difference for me between guilt and shame is one where guilt I can recognize as a maybe a behavior as an example or something I felt into outside of myself that I can I can say, okay, but that's not how I define myself.
00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:55.360
Shame to me is more I am, right?
00:04:56.000 --> 00:05:04.240
And and I think when if there's a feeling of guilt and we're looking back saying, ah, you know, I I could have maybe handled that differently.
00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:05.439
That's so different.
00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:11.360
And it's also something that can be really empowering when you're able to say, you know, I'm sorry for what?
00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:20.319
I can name the behavior, I can differentiate myself from that and use it as a platform to say moving forward, this is what I want to do, like a teaching moment, if you will.
00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:30.560
Like this is a way I'm learning from this experience and how I want to hold it in a way moving forward where it's it's helping me to grow versus something that's keeping me stuck.
00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:32.319
Um I don't know.
00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:34.000
What are your thoughts on that?
00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:35.680
Oh, I was yeah, I liked it.
00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:36.399
I was listening to you.
00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:37.040
Yeah.
00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:40.480
Uh getting, yeah, feeling like a place of how can you elaborate a little bit more on that?
00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:44.720
When you what do you mean by like uh, you know, I feeling it from a place of being stuck?
00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:47.439
I don't know if you wanted to elaborate a little bit more.
00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:49.279
Like feeling stuck.
00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:52.560
So when you when you're growing in in that scenario, right?
00:05:52.639 --> 00:06:02.240
I'm I'm saying this is something that now I'm aware of this impact or I see that part of it, and this is what I'm gonna do differently moving forward.
00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:17.759
Like I'm integrating it in a way into myself where it's it's teaching me a different way of showing up that's meaningful and in align with my values, yeah, on some level, versus feeling stuck.
00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:24.879
It it's kind of like if I am the issue and I'm like, where do I go from there?
00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:25.199
Right.
00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:33.519
To me, it's just you're staying trapped in a negative way of thinking about yourself that isn't like a more of a fixed versus growth mindset, right?
00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:48.480
I'm staying wrapped in kind of now this identity, if you will, that may or may not be aligned with my values, but I I haven't integrated feedback in a way or seen myself in that feedback in a certain way that allows me to move forward with it.
00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:52.160
I don't strictly that's a stream of consciousness there.
00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:53.279
Yeah, no, I love that.
00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:54.160
Were you taught?
00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:56.480
Do you ever apply ACT acceptance commitment therapy?
00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:58.079
I love ACT, yes.
00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:04.319
Uh yeah, I've been doing that so much for a lot of my clients, and we should probably explain to our um listeners what ACT is.
00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:06.720
So ACT is acceptance commitment therapy.
00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:08.000
I really encourage you all to get this book.
00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:10.240
It's called Act Made Simple by Russ Harris.
00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:13.839
This is fantastic, both for clinicians but also for the general public.
00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:20.879
But he talks, he talks a lot about when we get fused to, you know, act is acceptance, commitment therapy.
00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:28.399
Like all suffering comes from fusion, which is when a thought sticks on you, and then avoidance, we try to make that thought go away.
00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:33.839
And then we have remoteness to our values, which often comes from self-concept.
00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:35.120
We start to compare.
00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:36.480
I love that whole model.
00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:52.399
That's actually where I get a lot of my um, you know, I do a lot of my work when it comes to apologies, because if you're if you're defusing from your thoughts, you're saying, okay, I'm having the thought that, and it's and I'm, you know, that I was, you know, rude to my son last night, right?
00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:56.079
Or or rude to my partner last night, or my husband, or my wife.
00:07:56.399 --> 00:08:00.000
And I'm just kind of accepting it rather than trying to avoid it.
00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:03.920
That prevents the defensiveness could go down that Gottman often talks about.
00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:06.720
We all can get defensive, we all can be rude from time to time.
00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:07.920
I mean, I'm definitely right.
00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:11.040
I wrote a blog, even post on on Medium.
00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:12.000
Y'all could go check it out.
00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:13.360
It's called Why I'm Rude.
00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:15.279
Um, it's very free to write that.
00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:16.079
I loved it, you know.
00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:19.680
So I'm from Boston.
00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:27.040
It's like, you know, come if anybody from around the country wants to place where you can just be rude and we'll still love you, come to Boston.
00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:28.639
Um, yeah, we still love you.
00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:32.080
No, but like, you know, and and that's and I'm accepting that.
00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:42.399
And then the context of my story, let's say that I saw nine patients in a row last night, I had four hours of sleep, or my child was up all night long.
00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:44.799
Okay, that's putting me in the context of my story.
00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:49.840
And then I when I instead of having remoteness in my values, I know what my values are.
00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:52.879
And let's say my values is to be a patient father.
00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:59.120
Well, I could then easily apologize because I wasn't, it's workable because it wasn't in line with my values.
00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:08.240
That's act in a nutshell, which I really love because it teaches psychological flexibility rather than rigidity, which would say, okay, I'm fused.
00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:11.679
Oh, I was so impatient with my wife or my husband.
00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:13.120
Oh, shoot, no, I wasn't.
00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:17.679
She didn't understand, or uh, and then I'm struggling, and then I'm having this argument with myself.
00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:23.519
And then there's self-concept in the sense of like, well, he's not impatient or she's not impatient.
00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:30.960
And now I start feeling shame, and then I have no idea what my values are, and I think that's where we get a lot of defensiveness, a lot of criticism.
00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:35.679
It's like, well, you made me do this, or or we go inward because and which doesn't feel good.
00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:43.200
I think shame turns toward externalization because shaming ourselves is is so damaging for the long run.
00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:46.320
So it's so much easier to turn it back as a place of control.
00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:48.480
If I could just blame Jessica, right?
00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.360
Rather than blame myself, I get a little bit of relief.
00:09:51.519 --> 00:10:01.759
But again, that relief is is debilitating because then it goes back to self-blame and then blaming you, and then self-blame and blaming you, and it's exhausting.
00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:11.440
It's just except that's what I love about act because it's just kind of like defuse your thoughts, accept, um, you know, root yourself in your values.
00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:12.080
Okay, fine.
00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:13.360
I wasn't, I wasn't patient.
00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:13.840
Great.
00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:15.279
What's the committed action?
00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:16.399
What's workable?
00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:22.159
I'm gonna go talk to my son or my partner or my daughter and just say, Hey, I wasn't in a good place yesterday.
00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:23.120
I love you, sweetie.
00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:23.919
You know, that's it.
00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:24.960
Let's move on.
00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:30.720
I like how it corresponds really well with like Dottman's taking responsibility for your defensiveness.
00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:33.120
So I think that's what we mean by apology.
00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:35.279
I mean, that's that's a good place to be.
00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:38.559
Um, but shame does a lot of damage, doesn't it?
00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:40.639
Because I mean, you you and I see it is clinically.
00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:45.200
I mean, what what what are some things that you've seen how shame will actually take apologies?
00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:50.240
And they are it it actually it makes them so much worse, both for ourselves but also for other people.
00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:53.200
What ways have you seen it as a couples therapist, for example?
00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:58.320
Like how shame uh takes apologies and it really kind of dilutes them.
00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:02.240
Well, and I don't know if this is what you're referring to.
00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:19.759
For some reason, this is kind of the first thing that popped into my head, but for me, when when shame is in the room and it I feel like it puts the onus on the other person, you know.
00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:37.840
Um I might so if it's not necessarily coming from a defensive place, um like I'm not overtly maybe um attacking or criticizing you, right?
00:11:38.480 --> 00:12:07.840
But I feel like I'm a bad person here, or I'm what I also can see happen is since now I'm the other person to make me feel better about this thing, if that if that lands where instead of it being a conversation about, and then is anything really getting fixed in in the scheme of things because now there's this deeper cycle happening where I'm in a conflict with myself.
00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:32.480
And I think that's the piece in order to move forward and heal, it's like that defusion, if you will, where we need to separate the incident from our sense of self so that we can move forward, whether it be with our partner, our friend, whoever, where it's like now there's a pathway on what we can do differently, a constructive plan, if you will, for how to move forward.
00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:35.440
When that stays within myself, now I'm the issue.
00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:38.399
How does that inform other interactions moving forward?
00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:41.840
If I am the problem, so to speak, right?
00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:56.080
It's not that also can I imagine trigger um other conversations where I might hear something and I might also be more prone to that I'm just hearing on the problem because that's my own narrative.
00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:58.399
So it's all going through that filter.
00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:06.399
And then if there is something wrong that we truly need to address, and maybe an apology is warranted, is that then repair happening?
00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:22.399
And does over time that lead into potentially even a more contemptuous place where maybe the other partner doesn't feel quite hurt because I'm trying to address this thing that hurt me or had this impact on me, but it gets the conversation stops because of the shame spiral.
00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:28.559
So when I say making it about the other person, that's kind of the cycle that sometimes I see.
00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:30.240
I don't know if that's what you were referring to.
00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:31.519
Did you see it show up in other ways?
00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:32.320
Yeah, very much.
00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:35.039
I that was I was really listening to you, and it's fascinating.
00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:44.240
I like how you brought up the contempt, is really starts from the place of um the hatred within ourselves, like the disappointment, I should say, within ourselves.
00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:44.559
Yeah.
00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:52.480
And it starts with that more than just it's so easy to think of contempt, you know, because it's disgust outward, but it's actually often starts with contempt toward myself.
00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:59.840
And then that that, yeah, it it transfers over to disgust toward the other person because it, yeah.
00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:07.679
If it could see you as dirty, I don't have to see myself as just as dirty, which makes it yeah, it makes it easier, quote unquote.
00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:10.639
Um protective mechanism almost.
00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:11.360
Yeah.
00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:20.879
And yeah, that's the delusion too, because Gottman's done a lot of work on how contempt will decrease your heart or excuse me, de-age your heart really by 15 years.
00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:30.399
Um heart rate, blood pressure, all that stuff really goes up significantly when you uh have contempt toward other people.
00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:31.519
So huh.
00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:34.159
Yeah, and I yeah, I wonder what the relief is.
00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:40.159
Uh, but I I liked how you were saying like contempt toward yourself first and then it it transfers over.
00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:41.039
Yeah.
00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:43.919
What do you see as the impacts of shame?
00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:46.879
You know, in this process that can happen.
00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:55.039
Um yeah, I think it's I think it comes down to, I mean, I think at the end of the day, I think we're not we're not okay with failure.
00:14:55.600 --> 00:15:04.879
I see this, I I think I I used to do a lot of play therapy with kids and I learned a lot about where a lot of psychological theories probably come from.
00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:17.919
And almost every kid I would I would do I would do like a game with, um they were not at a good place primarily by how they handled a loss of an Uno game.
00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:26.159
And um that little thing can tell you everything about how he handles or she handles stuff at school.
00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:37.600
Uh when they get uh constructive feedback by their parent, when they get constructive feedback by their coach, I I think one of the worst things you can do is let your kid win.
00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:41.279
Um, never ever, in my opinion, I don't think you ever want to do that.
00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:50.799
You actually want to get your kid to be okay if they lose a nuno game, because you can you can really teach a lot of stuff by it's okay, buddy.
00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:52.399
It's just a game, right?
00:15:52.799 --> 00:16:09.120
And parents, I think when they quote, let their kids win, the problem with that, or even I was tempted to do that as well, but I never did, and I'm glad I never did, because if he became really temperamental or she became really angry, we would talk about that.
00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:19.919
And you often would see a correlation within the semester that if they got to the point where they could shake my hand after a Nuno game and say, Thank you, Mr.
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:22.320
Anderson, even though I lost three games, I had fun.
00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:23.120
High five.
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:24.000
Cool, buddy.
00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:26.000
Yeah, Billy, I'll see you next week.
00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:30.399
Moms would actually come back to me and they would say, What are you doing, Billy?
00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:31.679
Like, what are you guys talking about?
00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:33.840
And they thought it was like these deep, deep conversations.
00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:39.120
And I was like, No, I'm he's just getting better at Uno, or he's he's okay with losing a Uno.
00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:43.759
And she's like, Yeah, he's really handling things a whole lot better.
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:45.360
That I don't think that's small.
00:16:45.519 --> 00:17:01.840
I think when we don't handle failure well early on, and we don't ever deal with that very well through life, we then um I think I don't know if this is answering your question, but like, you know, I think that's where shame starts to just fester.
00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:06.240
And then over time, uh it it just has to go outward.
00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:07.039
It does.
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:17.680
And then we don't know how, and then everything that seems like everything that's a quote constructive feedback sounds like a criticism, sounds like a it sounds like an attack.
00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:21.519
Um, when it, you know, it's like, hey Peter, can you be a little bit more on time?
00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:27.519
Or hey, Jessica, would you mind um you know, listening to both of us when we're a couple?
00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:28.880
I I'm just giving examples, right?
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:30.799
The thing we all do.
00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:35.359
And rather than seeing that as, oh, cool, yeah, I lost the you know game.
00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:36.160
That's that's fine.
00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:38.000
We see that as like a personal attack.
00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:40.079
And when we do that, we go inward.
00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:51.839
Um, and then we no longer differentiate between shame and guilt, which is such a which which does us a real disservice in our in our relationships, um, from childhood all the way to adulthood, I would say.
00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:54.160
Uh, and that carries with us for a very, very long time.
00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:55.119
They've done studies.
00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:57.039
I think her name is Twin, what was her name?
00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:05.279
I can't remember, but you could look up, they did a they did a study um on incarcerated um uh inmates.
00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:26.240
And when they got out of prison, they did a follow-up study that the ones who were much better at just like taking ownership for their crime and saying, I'm gonna, you know, I did it and I messed up, they were much like less likely to go back to jail versus people that were just constantly saying, you know, I got a bad rap.
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:32.480
It's um, you know, I I I hate that I, you know, I got a I dwelt I got dealt a bad hand.
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:36.960
They were so much more likely to go right back to jail within the you know two or three years.
00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:41.680
So this this affects both like yeah, criminal behavior to just normal behavior.
00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:51.279
If we don't differentiate between just basic shame and guilt, it could, it could, it could go real, it it's a pretty significant contrast, yeah, I would say.
00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:52.799
No, I love that.
00:18:52.880 --> 00:19:13.200
And and that makes also so much sense to me, that study, because I imagine, even though this is not in the study, but again, if shame is something more like internal, if I frame it that way, then if if shame says you are quote unquote the problem, my choices just got a whole lot narrower, right?
00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:23.359
Versus if this behavior or this decision was an issue, I have a whole lot of room for what I can do around that thing.
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:38.240
I have a whole lot of pathways I can choose from because I'm kind of integrating in that feedback again in a way where it's like, okay, there's still a whole set of other choices that I can do that are different than that one set of behaviors or choices.
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:47.759
Um shame blocks that in my eyes a lot of the time because it's so internal focused, um, in some ways.
00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:48.559
Yeah.
00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:49.920
Yeah.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:55.039
How do how do you help um cope with shame and like where do you usually go?
00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:58.880
Uh like you know, exercises or tactics for you.
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:03.039
I mean, what about both as a marriage counselor and also maybe an individual therapist?
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:10.160
Yeah, I mean, so I love Brene Brown and I know she does a lot of work with shame and vulnerability.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:22.240
And um I really like what she talks about when she talks about how, you know, shame can exist in a space where there is compassion or or empathy.
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:34.480
And I think there's a lot to that where it's one, trying to discern what is a criticism versus a complaint in couples' work and how we're hearing that message.
00:20:34.640 --> 00:21:04.240
But then two, you know, how can I hold and shifting an I am statement into a statement about a behavior and really trying to also highlight the distinction between myself and my emotions, like just being able to recognize, non-identify, like diffuse um some of those aspects of a of a conversation and also in my own thought process, whoever is might be struggling with that shame.
00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:14.480
And for if I'm in a relationship, how can I also hold empathy and and space for my partner to go through that process?
00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:16.079
How do we slow it down?
00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:23.599
Where I'm not just hearing that as a pushback to this feedback, but like acknowledging what is in the room with us.
00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:25.519
I'm a big fan of externalizing things.
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:28.480
So sometimes I'm like, okay, shame's in the room with us.
00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:32.960
That impacts both of you in different ways, and it also impacts this relationship in different ways.
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:37.519
So you both aren't the enemy here, but shame kind of is right now.
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:44.079
So, how can we both understand that its impacts on us before we proceed forward?
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:59.599
So, just kind of how do we increase awareness and attunement to when it's present and what that looks like, and then starting to for the folder of shame to build and bake in some of that self compassion um for oneself and also again to not identify.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.440
With certain emotions.
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:04.240
Like they're part of my experience, but I am not.
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:08.880
Um, for example, I might have made a disrespectful comment.
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:12.799
That does not inherently mean I am a disrespectful person.
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:15.119
Is that right?
00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:16.480
Yeah, I like that.
00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:16.799
Yeah.
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.000
So it's kind of separating the behaviors from the actual person.
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:24.799
So you try to like take less personification, personified approach from it.
00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:26.400
Like I'm yeah, that makes sense.
00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:26.799
Yeah.
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:27.039
Yeah.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:27.920
What about you?
00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:34.720
What tend what do you tend to find is helpful when shame is in the room with people you're working with?
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:46.480
Well, yeah, that's um I I going back to act, I I I love love, um, I love the whole concept of self and context um rather than self-concept.
00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:52.079
You know, self-concept, I think really does come that's that's shame in a nutshell.
00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:53.839
I mean, we take eating disorder, right?
00:22:54.000 --> 00:23:23.279
So a typical client who struggles with eating disorder, he or she likely is comparing themselves to some model in their brain that's not well, one um probably objectively attractive if you ask the opposite sex that they're heterosexual, and two, it's so idealistically outside of the boundaries that they can never achieve it.
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:25.759
And so immediately create shame.
00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:29.920
And that's the that's the premise of all eating disorders, right there, in a nutshell.
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:35.519
They there is some there's some ideal that they don't feel like they fulfill, and so they starve themselves.
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:38.319
And so self in context is very different.
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:59.039
Self in context says, No, I want you to imagine that there's nine other people in the room, and let's say, for example, I I have like a parents of cutoff group, you know, so their self-concept may say, you know, well, this parent has a great relationship with their children, even though they're probably were worse parents than I was.
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:02.079
I wasn't cut off from my kids five years ago.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:06.799
Well, my my ex-husband's not cut off from my kids, therefore I'm a bad mom.
00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:08.240
That's self-concept.
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:09.839
And so shame comes in.
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:18.319
But what act does is says, no, put yourself, you're still going so you're your comparison's still outside the bounds of imagination here.
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:21.119
And what you want to do is look at the self in context.
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:23.119
So I like to think of it as like a book.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:42.720
So then I what I often tell clients is imagine there's nine other people in the room, and you know, all nine of those other people also had their kids cut them off, and they also had an ex-husband that or ex-part wife who parentified the child.
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:54.400
Um, and they also uh got to the point where they're um, you know, all they had a great relationship, and then all of a sudden they just have no contact for the past three years.
00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:55.039
Yeah.
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:57.200
Um how's her depression?
00:24:57.359 --> 00:24:58.400
How's his depression?
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:03.279
How's his how does he have the thought of just like just wanting to hide?
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:09.279
And so what that does, it like it normalizes the thoughts that are really negative that they're experiencing.
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:12.319
As yeah, this is this is literally, yeah.
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:21.920
Frodo was one place when he was having butterbeer with with you know with all the hobbits, but he's at a totally different place when he's on on Mordor, you're right.
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:31.839
And he it's just like it's the same character, but the context of a story and the chapter that he's in radically changes on how we perceive him, and you're the same way.
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:40.079
And I love that because self in context, it you can't look at where you were five years ago or where Jessica was at or where your neighbor may have been.
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:52.319
You have to look at people that are in your story, and if they are having these same negative thoughts, because shame is often like an argument with yourself that you wish you weren't thinking a certain thing.
00:25:52.559 --> 00:26:01.519
And if you can just kind of like accept that some of these thoughts are just part of the game, um, you know, then the shame goes out.
00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:05.759
Now you may feel guilty, which is fine because now you're rooting yourself in your value system.
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.920
You're saying what's aligned with my values.
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:12.559
So I I found that to be really helpful for for a lot of my clients who feel a lot of shame.
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:20.640
I want you to imagine nine other people in the room with you that are literally like if you had a miscarriage, for example, there's a lot of shame with miscarriages.
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:21.839
Maybe there's something wrong with my body.
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:23.359
Oh, I shouldn't be feeling that way.
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:25.599
Or and then they're arguing with themselves.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:31.440
And well, there's maybe shame in, I don't know, my my my kid is addicted to drugs, whatever it is.
00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:36.559
Or my husband, my husband lost his job due to alcoholism.
00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:47.359
And they start to compare themselves, you know, with with everybody else in the family, and and they they just kind of feel this embarrassment, and then they feel bad that they're even having these thoughts of embarrassment.
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:51.680
But if they can change it to the context of their story, it really it reframes it for them.
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:54.880
I found that to be really helpful anyway.
00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:56.559
Yeah, no, a hundred percent.
00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:05.279
And I think you know, I love what you were talking about, just how important that context is, and especially too, sometimes with that comparative thinking that can happen.
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:09.279
You know, just self and context is so pivotal.
00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:11.839
I I I really love that point.
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:13.839
Um well then, yeah.
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:15.359
I know we only have a little time we have.
00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:17.119
We should talk about apology then.
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:18.559
Yeah, right.
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:26.160
So now we should uh maybe end on um so when when is uh when when do we apologize too much?
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:29.200
And is there such a thing as apologizing too much?
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:31.839
And um I'd love to get your thoughts on that.
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:33.119
When should you apologize?
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:34.880
When should you not apologize?
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:37.039
Yeah, what let's just yeah.
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:43.839
So I'm leaning in a little bit, I guess, now to jump in to more dialectical behavioral therapy.
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:46.880
And the one thing that pops into my mind is like that fast acronym.
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:53.200
So there, or it will say apologies or no in parentheses, apologies, stick to values and truthful.
00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:56.720
And so that second A apology.
00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:08.799
Then what comes to mind is I think sometimes we can over-apologize for things, for example, such as having an opinion or a different point of view or disagreeing, or um, even potentially for making a certain type of request.
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:15.440
And I think that's where it's important to say no, hold on.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:17.279
That is okay.
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:20.720
To I think how we do it is important, right?
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:22.480
If we're having a disagreement, right?
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:30.880
It doesn't maybe open up the space to attack the other person for having a different point of view, right?
00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:39.279
But I do think just because there is an inherent difference does not mean that then I need to apologize for that, right?
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:44.640
Um, or for even having a different potentially set of values, right?
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:54.319
If so, I think that's where it's important to kind of sit with yourself for a minute and say, hold on, like what am I actually apologizing for?
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:57.680
And where am I fitting that in?
00:28:57.759 --> 00:28:59.519
How am I making sense of that?
00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:17.680
Versus just also saying something to say it, because I think that's what the like if I encourage people too, like it's important that you when you're when whenever you're offering an apology, and other people will probably pick up on it, is am I doing it in a genuine way?
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:18.559
Right too.
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:35.599
Like, and when I say genuine, what I mean is, am I doing it just to say it to avoid an issue, or because I think it's what I need to do, or am I doing it because again, it's in alignment with my values, and I see here where I acted in a way that was outside of my values.
00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:47.279
Um, but I'm not just saying it because I think it's what the other person wants to hear, or because I'm I'm stating something that's different than what the person potentially wants to hear.
00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:51.759
Uh that's so that comes to mind, long story short.
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:56.400
What about how do you differentiate when versus not to?
00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:57.440
What are your thoughts?
00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:00.400
No, you you uh took the thought right on my that's perfect.
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:02.960
Yeah, I haven't found something better than the fast either.
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:07.519
Fine, you know, and to summarize again, well, you know, it's uh dialectical behavioral therapy.
00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:13.200
If y'all look up interpersonal communication, there's dear man, which is described.
00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:18.240
This is this is when you're speaking, express your emotion, assert your need, reinforce.
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:22.559
In other words, how the reinforcement and the need go together when you're doing that.
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:27.920
So, for example, hey babe, we're going on dates and we're staring at our phones.
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:31.359
I feel really, I've been feeling really irritated about that.
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:34.000
I need us not to look at our phones for the first 20 minutes.
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:37.039
I think I would be in a more talkative mood on the date.
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:38.960
Great, that's beautiful.
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:40.880
Um, you stay mindful when you're saying it.
00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:43.440
She may get a little defensive because we all get a little defensive.
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:44.880
We we're just defensive creatures.
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:45.759
I think we are.
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:46.559
We all are.
00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:48.720
I think that's just part of human evolution, personally.
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:51.359
So you stay mindful, natural, you know.
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:52.319
Yeah, I think we are.
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:54.079
I think we're just naturally that way.
00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:56.000
Um, so you may have to repeat it.
00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:59.359
It's like, no, I just I just don't want, I just don't want to look at my phones.
00:30:59.440 --> 00:30:59.759
That's it.
00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:03.920
You need to appear confident, give her eye contact, give him eye contact, negotiate.
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:10.000
So maybe especially if you're both working full time, maybe you know, not 20 minutes, maybe 15.
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:10.720
I don't know.
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:17.759
So, but you know, the listener's part is give, be genuine, be interested, validate, easygoing.
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.279
That's how you listen, communicate, listen, communicate.
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:27.440
But what holds you together, I love this at DBT is being fair to yourself, fair to the other person.
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:31.759
So it's not like you're just fair to you, nor are you just fair to them.
00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:33.119
That's codependency.
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:33.680
Right.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:41.519
You you make no unnecessary apologies for the dear man part, especially if it's coming from a place of um your core need.
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:50.720
Yeah, you seek what your values are and you state what your values are, um, and then you're truthful, you're truthful in line with those values, and that's what holds all relationships.
00:31:50.880 --> 00:32:00.319
So I love that because I think a lot of people won't they may apologize for a core need, and that's what creates that's literally what creates contempt.
00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:10.079
And then people get very nitpicky, and when they get really nitpicky, if you you see this in relationships, then people over apologize or they underapologize.
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:14.160
You're like, Well, you should apologize because you didn't come home at 10:05.
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:22.720
Or, you know, you we see this sometimes as couples therapists, or some of our couples will fight over why why do they fight over the dumbest things?
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:23.839
Well, it's very easy.
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.160
They don't know what their values are, it's that simple.
00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:36.160
Or they they or they feel like they're they've compromised on their values and they feel like they their values aren't being honored by the other partner, partner, so they focus on the tiniest little things.
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.440
I always tell people, no, I really want you to state what your values are.
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:45.359
Then you let go a lot and don't make unnecessary apologies if it's part of if it's part of your value system.
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:52.000
Um, you know, I really do so you know, no, I just need you home before the kids go to bed.
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:53.359
That's a value.
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:56.079
Not no, I need you home at 7 07.
00:32:56.400 --> 00:33:00.319
If you're not, it's you know, I'm like, okay, you know, stick to your value.
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:06.640
So and and don't apologize for telling your spouse I need you home before the kids go to bed.
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:07.519
That's great.
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:13.519
But you know, uh, um, anyway, so yeah, I I liked I I like fast a lot.
00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:21.119
I always encourage people that's so apologize when it's out of line with your values, uh summarize what we talked about today.
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:32.720
Um, don't apologize when it's part of your values value system, and um uh that yeah, I and try to be clear on that.
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:38.319
And difference between guilt and shame, and guilt and shame, true and how that might impact this process.
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:41.680
And yeah, and I don't know your thoughts on this.
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:45.039
Maybe we can surprise everyone with what we do next time.
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:50.720
I feel like another important conversation is forgiveness on the other end of this.
00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:52.880
Um yeah, yeah.
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:56.559
So maybe that's one maybe hey, maybe we talk about forgiveness next time.
00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:03.279
Well, um, I do have to I have a session in five minutes, and uh thanks guys for listening.
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:05.920
Well, thanks for listening to Drinks and Shrinks.
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:09.440
Uh, I'm your host, Peter Anderson, and Jessica Pacinas.
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:10.400
Good to see you guys.
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:11.920
Nice to see you all.
00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:13.119
Yeah, hear from you.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:18.400
Please yeah, write us, write us at Andersonfamtherapy at gmail.com.
00:34:18.559 --> 00:34:22.239
Make your uh let let your voice be known.
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:24.159
Anyway, but thanks for listening, y'all.
