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Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.
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I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
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In this episode, you'll hear
Part Two of my conversation with
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Devon Thomas Jones and Thomas
Murray from University of Arizona.
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Devon and Tom are Course Directors
for University 301, General
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Education ePortfolio, University
101, Introduction to the General
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Education Experience, respectively.
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They are also both Associate
Professors of Practice at the W.
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A.
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Franke Honors College in Arizona.
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in the Office of General Education.
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More links and information about today's
conversation can be found On Digication's
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Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
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Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on
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YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
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I'm A huge, huge fan of, um, the reform
that's centered around reflection.
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I think that, you know, it is clearly,
to me, one of those things where
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when we, when we earlier on talked
We're talking about the durable
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skills, the transferable skills.
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Reflection is probably the,
the linchpin that, that, that
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puts all of this together.
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Um, you know, and, and that, I think,
um, Tom, you were saying that for 12
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years prior to this professionally
as students, they weren't ever asked
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about what they are curious about.
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I bet you they weren't being really asked.
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Really on reflecting on anything of
their own experience either, right?
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And, and, and it's just such a, it's
almost like one of those things that, um,
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Most people in the world won't deny almost
naturally that yeah, it's a good part.
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It's an important part of learning
yet We don't carve out time and space
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in our curriculum in our day to day
To have students do this reflection
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and I don't I don't even think that
is reflection Is that kind of like
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some people think of it as well?
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There's that to touchy feely thing
I'm gonna meditate and and it's not
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even that it's you know, we're really
talking about we're talking about You
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You layering your own experience, making
connections so that you can come up with
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a strategy and how to solve a problem.
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You know, these are things
that scientists do, artists do,
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dancers do, you know, nurses do.
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Um, you have to do it constantly,
every day, all the time.
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Um, and so it's one of, it's
almost like, it feels almost like
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one of those skills that we just
forgot that it was so important.
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It's so important, but we forgot about it.
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Um, and I think that.
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Um, what you are all doing, bringing
that to be such a focus, is incredibly
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important work, um, in, in your reform.
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I mean, if you want to be
excellent in your field, reflection
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is how you do that, right?
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I mean, when I was in high
school and I played football,
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what did we do every Monday?
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We watched a videotape on VHS, uh,
videotape of our football game for
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that weekend, right, and, and our
coaches made us look at the, at the,
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okay, what, what did you do well?
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What did you do poorly?
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What do you need to do
better next time, right?
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That is how you get better
at playing football.
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That's how you get better at teaching.
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Anything.
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If you want to be a great engineer, you
need to reflect on the engineering that
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you've done and how you make it better.
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And I think, I think what, what people
forget about is that reflection.
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Yes.
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Is there something about being human
that makes reflection somewhat natural?
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Perhaps, but it's a skill, right?
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It's like any other skill.
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The more you do it, the more
intentional you are, the more
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practice you have, the better you get.
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Um, and if you want to be the
best of the best, that's how
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you're going to get there.
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And that allows our brains then,
right, to recall experiences
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and apply them in new contexts.
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And that's ultimately What we're hoping
students can do with what they've learned
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and spent many years dedicating time
and energy in the classroom to having
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these spaces where they can practice
these different skills and apply them
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to course specific or case scenarios.
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And then when they're out in their fields
and industries, they're able to better
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make those connections and to build
in that time and intentionality around
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purposeful reflection and to facilitate
is really part of the learning process and
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ultimately what students should be able
to take with them so that they can say,
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Oh yeah, I actually got something out of
my degree because now I can see how I've
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applied some of the things I've learned.
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Um, sometimes I think it's easy to
assume that like when we ask students,
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right, like what are you curious about?
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And to carve out that
time to sit with them.
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One feels almost indulgent,
right, in a world where there's
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so many taps on our time.
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Um, and instead, like, that, that
shouldn't be an indulgent activity.
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That, that requires work.
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And sometimes, sometimes it uncovers
things about ourselves that maybe
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we We don't necessarily want
to deal with quite yet, right?
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Or sometimes through that process,
students come to realize, wow,
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I've, maybe I'm picking a degree
path that is not right for me.
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And what do I, how do I grapple with that?
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Right?
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Um, those are tough questions.
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Um, and that's, as you mentioned,
hard work, uh, to, to work through.
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Um, but it's, it shouldn't be indulgent.
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It shouldn't, that time shouldn't
be reserved for the few.
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Uh, Like in their like small Liberal Arts
on the grassy knoll, you know, whatever
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this like time of whatever we thought
college was supposed to be like, but
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it actually should be embedded and time
preserved in the curriculum because it is
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an essential part of the learning process.
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Yeah.
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I, I love that because I think, I
think that, um, it's, I mean, you were
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saying, That, you know, maybe humans
that naturally have that reflection,
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but, but if, but then why are we not
making that something that we value?
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Like from, from, from day one,
why aren't we saying, well, yeah,
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we are naturally good at this.
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Let's harness this.
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Um, so we don't do that, um, very well
in, in, in the past and the past has been.
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Actually, you're going to figure
that out because you're going
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to be naturally good at that.
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We are here to transfer a ton of
content to your brain and hopefully
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you'll, you'll make sense of it all
through your own reflection, right?
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It's, it's, it's kind of, it
feels a lot like, um, Tom, you're
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using a sports analogy earlier.
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I feel, I feel like it feels a lot like
when sports science wasn't very advanced.
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We just go, well, just go run
a ton and then you'll be fast.
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And then later on, we
realized, hold on a minute.
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It turns out there's nutrition,
there's sleep, there's, there's
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strength, there's agility.
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There's a lot more nuance that
we should be thinking about.
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Right.
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And so, yes, you still have
to run, you know, to get fast.
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You can't, you can't ignore that,
but, but, but there is a lot of other.
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Things that we do and we can do it smart.
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You know, Jeff, I, I love running.
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You actually hit a passion of mine.
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And I think it's a great example because
maybe humans find reflection naturally.
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Humans are also built to run, right?
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Like if you look at, at the history
of humanity, humans are actually
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elite long distance runners.
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evolutionarily, right?
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Like, but you have to practice it, right?
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You do, if you don't use that skill,
you, it doesn't, you, you lose it.
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Um, and so are we built to reflect?
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I think we are, but you still have to
do it intentionally and thoughtfully
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and strategically and, and in a
sustained way, um, to make it valuable.
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Well, you can almost
train yourself out of it.
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If you, if we don't put value on it,
that's a danger to, to humanity, right?
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I feel like there's a certain aspect of,
you know, when we don't train ourselves to
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become reflective thinkers, that's when we
become, Easily manipulated, manipulated.
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Right?
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Others easily being able to not being
able to tell, you know, um, truth from,
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you know, things that are not true.
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Um, because we're not exercising
that part of the brain.
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Um, and that's, that's a.
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That's a dangerous path to go down.
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Um, and if we only count on people to
just do it naturally, they'll still
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do some of it, but especially if
we keep telling people that doesn't
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matter, you just need to learn this,
then they go, well, hold on a minute.
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Turns out, even though I'm naturally
good at it, I'm not going to, I'm going
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to do, not going to do anything with it.
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That's, you know, that's, that's
a, that's a serious problem.
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Now I know that.
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At University of Arizona, as part of
what you've done, um, in this reform,
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and actually, Devon, in your course,
it's called University, University 301,
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and it's about, um, building portfolios.
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I have, I've been so lucky to
have been involved with you
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all to do your portfolio work.
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You know, we just took a small part of
it because you, you use, you know, the
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platform to do the work that you do.
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Um, but, but the big part of what I've
been really, um, always been so, um,
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enamored by is your, um, dedication
to making a learning portfolio.
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Um, can you Maybe talk about why portfolio
and what is a learning portfolio versus
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any type, other types of portfolio.
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Um, and, and maybe, you know, so that
people can get a little bit of that,
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little bit of a color of like, well,
what does it mean when they have gone
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through Uh, UNF 101 and then they
took some articles and come to my
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301 class and they do this portfolio.
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Why?
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And what does that look like?
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What does it actually
look like for a student?
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Are they just basically writing
a lot more paper or are they
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not writing a lot more paper?
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What is this?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Thanks.
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Thanks, Jeff.
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Um, what I think is particularly
exciting and when I think about what
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Uh, makes a learning portfolio stand
apart from, um, what we consider
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maybe more external facing or showcase
portfolios, career portfolios.
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There's many different kinds of portfolios
and they all serve different purposes.
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Um, and I had a colleague once kind
of framed this well for me, um, as
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the primary audience member of a
learning portfolio is the student.
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And that resonates with us and so
much of what we're trying to do is
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that the primary audience and the
main stakeholder in students learning
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and their degree is the student.
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So they, that is where the
effort and the work is.
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And really the learning happens is that
when a, when a student gets a chance to
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say this is actually what I've learned,
this is what's mattered to me, and this
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is what it's going to mean for me moving
forward, and really almost in dialogue
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with themselves, right, their past self,
uh, and their learning, that That's it.
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It's quite a profound responsibility
and then gives us a sense of, okay,
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now I can actually talk about and see
the connections that maybe I didn't see
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before, um, in my undergraduate career.
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So, um, I think that's, and
that was a mindset shift.
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Two, for me, professionally, right?
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And it's something we still, like, when
Tom and I meet with folks around campus
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and we, we have our little, you know,
song and dance we do about the classes.
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That's a big, like, myth we have to
debunk is what this portfolio is.
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And that, um, There's value when, in
particular for some fields and industries
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and for some degree programs, right,
um, having an external portfolio is
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a requirement and an expectation for,
for their industry or their career,
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and that's not to say that, like, you
can't have more than one, right, or you
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wouldn't have more than one portfolio as
a part of your undergraduate experience.
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That would be, you know, if we were
to think about, we would never tell a
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student, to have only one version of
their resume or to complete one final exam
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for their entire undergraduate degree.
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Like, that would just serve no
purpose and it has no applicability.
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Um, but rather with the, uh.
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The Learning ePortfolio.
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00:12:53,699
It's responsive to, again, the call that
we are responding to with students that
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00:12:57,170
I don't know, I want to be able to say
I know what I learned and what value it
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00:12:59,089
has to offer for my General Education.
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00:13:03,990
And that's what they're prompted to do
as a part of this portfolio experience.
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00:13:11,479
And sometimes the What they decide
to include, um, may not be the things
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00:13:16,219
that their General Education instructor
like per, you know, necessarily set out
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00:13:17,790
for them as a part of the assignment.
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00:13:21,170
Sometimes the learning that they
uncover through the reflective
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00:13:25,349
process is not necessarily what
the assignment was designed to do.
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00:13:31,205
Um, and I think that that is, an important
and profound insight when you Realize
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00:13:36,585
something from a learning experience
that maybe you didn't expect to find um
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00:13:41,775
is one of I think the the key pieces of
a learning portfolio that You wouldn't
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00:13:45,755
necessarily put out into the world,
especially if it was something like wow,
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00:13:50,855
I learned that My team really struggled,
uh, because of our time management, right?
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00:13:55,375
Like, I wouldn't put that on my LinkedIn,
uh, necessarily, you know, but that
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00:13:59,045
would be important for me to understand
and then to be able to say, next time
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00:14:04,275
I work on a team, I know I got to bring
these skills to, to that team project.
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00:14:10,025
So maybe that was a long answer, but it's
an exciting opportunity for students,
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00:14:14,484
um, to really get to say, this is what I
learned and this is what matters to me.
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00:14:17,284
And here's how I'm going to
apply that learning in my future.
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00:14:23,114
And I think part of that, um, that Devon
was alluding to is this idea of like
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00:14:28,814
using a learning ePortfolio as a space
where you can also showcase failure.
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00:14:36,180
And when we're talking about students who
are so often so failure averse, Right?
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00:14:42,540
Like, not ever wanting to, um,
kind of put under a microscope the
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00:14:43,910
things that they haven't done well.
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00:14:47,870
Having this space where they can say,
wow, I went back and here's a paper I
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00:14:49,900
wrote two years ago in my first year.
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00:14:55,500
And actually, this is not a very
good example of critical thinking,
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00:15:00,430
but this is what I've learned since
then through these other experiences.
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00:15:06,665
Like, that is, So powerful for students to
be able to more intentionally think about,
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00:15:11,925
um, the things that they maybe haven't
done as well as they wanted to, because
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00:15:14,594
that's also a part of learning, right?
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00:15:17,384
Is, is being able to,
to learn from failure.
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00:15:21,835
I mean, going back to your football game
analogy, unless you won every single
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00:15:25,015
one of those games, there will be some
failures, and that's where you're going
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00:15:26,944
to have to learn and figure out how to do.
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00:15:28,490
You know, better next time.
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00:15:34,189
And I, one of the, one of the things
that I, um, that was, that is, that is
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00:15:41,810
really, um, part of the inception of
Digication as a platform, you know, for
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00:15:47,099
portfolios, it's called make learning
visible, but I love people don't realize
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00:15:49,344
that when we say make learning visible.
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00:15:52,615
Is to make learning visible
first and foremost to yourself.
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00:16:00,495
Um, because that is what powers the
rest of, you know, how do you grow
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00:16:05,114
from that to, you know, potentially,
like you said, making it visible for
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00:16:09,354
a potential employer or what have you,
and you can edit and you can, you can
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00:16:14,015
curate and you can do, do a version
of it that you make visible for them.
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00:16:14,025 -->
00:16:15,005
That's appropriate.
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00:16:17,275
That's just being able
to understand audience.
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00:16:20,925
You know, that's, that's, that's a,
that's a, that's a simple thing to do.
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00:16:28,000
Um, But the idea that we get to
just see it for ourselves, it almost
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00:16:32,589
feels like you should be able to
do it, except that we don't, right?
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00:16:32,600 -->
00:16:38,250
So if Tom, I'm going to go back
to your football game, chess tape.
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00:16:41,560
If no one taped it, right?
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00:16:45,509
If no one taped it and no one
on Monday said, let's sit and
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00:16:48,590
watch how we got our butt kicked.
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00:16:51,339
I was using the case.
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00:16:51,750
Right.
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00:16:55,640
But if no one forced you to do it, no
one taped it, no one bothered with it,
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00:16:58,540
because we didn't care that much, right?
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00:16:58,630 -->
00:17:02,180
Then on Monday, you would, you
have missed one of the most
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00:17:05,649
valuable ways to grow, right?
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00:17:08,950
You would have just go,
well, we got our butt kicked.
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00:17:10,829
I'm not sure why.
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00:17:16,429
Everyone just go run another 10 laps.
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00:17:18,450
I'm going to push back
on that a little bit.
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00:17:22,224
I think, because there's two things
that you mentioned that are important
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00:17:23,254
for the reflection to happen.
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00:17:26,794
One is that somebody videotaped
it, and two is that somebody said,
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00:17:30,065
let's watch, let's think about
this and think about what happened.
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00:17:30,544 -->
00:17:34,905
I think the videotape is helpful, but
it's not a necessary condition, right?
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00:17:35,305 -->
00:17:38,114
The necessary condition is that
you make time for it, right?
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00:17:42,975
That somebody says, sit down and
think about it, because a lot of
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00:17:42,975 -->
00:17:44,985
reflection happens without an artifact.
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00:17:45,034 -->
00:17:47,234
I mean, our ePortfolios
have artifacts, right?
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00:17:51,965
But, you know, If you develop the habits
and skills of reflection, you can do that
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00:17:55,785
without necessarily having an artifact,
but just thinking about your experience.
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00:17:55,795 -->
00:18:01,425
So, I mean, I do a lot of, I do a lot of
running and when I, after I run a race,
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00:18:05,464
I mean, I'm not racing competitively,
believe me, but after I run a race, I
291
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00:18:08,705
don't have a videotape of that race,
but I can still think about like,
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00:18:11,275
okay, how did I manage my nutrition?
293
00:18:11,285 -->
00:18:12,595
What was my mental state?
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00:18:12,645 -->
00:18:14,475
How did training go leading up to that?
295
00:18:15,315 -->
00:18:17,465
Um, I don't necessarily
have to have an artifact.
296
00:18:17,854 -->
00:18:19,424
in order for reflection to happen.
297
00:18:19,544 -->
00:18:23,864
Um, the, the necessary condition
is that you make time for it.
298
00:18:24,530 -->
00:18:29,600
Yes, it's make the time and the end and
being deliberate about like, Hey, you
299
00:18:29,600 -->
00:18:32,830
know, I'm going to actually think, think
about something that would have been
300
00:18:32,830 -->
00:18:35,939
painful in particular sometimes, right?
301
00:18:35,950 -->
00:18:37,490
Like it didn't go well, what happened?
302
00:18:38,160 -->
00:18:39,800
Like I have to realize that.
303
00:18:39,810 -->
00:18:40,220
Yeah.
304
00:18:40,260 -->
00:18:40,969
And I think that's what.
305
00:18:41,420 -->
00:18:48,630
distinguishes a learning portfolio from,
say, a cloud storage device, right, or a
306
00:18:48,700 -->
00:18:55,809
Google Drive, right, um, is that students
are oftentimes prompted or, you know,
307
00:18:55,810 -->
00:19:01,040
sometimes are incentivized on their own
to maybe save their work or they have
308
00:19:01,439 -->
00:19:07,850
whatever versions of their past, you know,
English papers, um, but in life, right,
309
00:19:08,290 -->
00:19:13,920
as, as competing priorities happen, we,
we document, we submit the work, and
310
00:19:13,920 -->
00:19:15,739
then we move on to the next task, right?
311
00:19:15,770 -->
00:19:21,589
And, um, that is often what is also
incentivized, right, in higher education.
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00:19:21,600 -->
00:19:24,640
Submit the work, I evaluate it,
I determine that you learned the
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00:19:24,640 -->
00:19:26,509
things I was looking for you to do.
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00:19:26,510 -->
00:19:32,645
And, What actually makes it a learning,
the visibility part, right, the learning
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00:19:32,725 -->
00:19:38,135
eat portfolio, is that now I actually
have to go back and think about this
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00:19:38,144 -->
00:19:43,144
paper, maybe revisit it again, think
about maybe what were the conditions I
317
00:19:43,144 -->
00:19:48,074
was writing this paper in, right, um, and
actually maybe the things I got out of
318
00:19:48,074 -->
00:19:54,215
it, and And to reflect in that capacity
that that is something that you wouldn't
319
00:19:54,245 -->
00:19:59,554
necessarily be prompted to engage with
if you're just here I am with my drive
320
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00:20:01,644
and my cloud device and moving on.
321
00:20:02,915 -->
00:20:03,255
Right.
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00:20:04,945
It's kind of like a one, two punch.
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00:20:04,945 -->
00:20:09,035
You, you can have the experience,
but if you don't get to process
324
00:20:09,045 -->
00:20:13,284
that experience afterwards, it
just sits alone as an experience.
325
00:20:13,535 -->
00:20:18,754
And it, it did something, but it didn't
do its full potential, like to, to really,
326
00:20:18,755 -->
00:20:20,445
you didn't really get most out of it.
327
00:20:20,765 -->
00:20:23,825
You, you got, you got, you get the
first half, you know, you got the
328
00:20:23,825 -->
00:20:28,825
experience, but that experience did not
mean as much as if you had been able to
329
00:20:28,835 -->
00:20:30,765
actually take the time to process it.
330
00:20:30,965 -->
00:20:35,055
And to make meaning out of it and to
make connections in this experiences
331
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00:20:38,795
comparing to other experiences
that you also have and layer them.
332
00:20:39,185 -->
00:20:42,774
Um, how do you think, let me
ask you a little bit about
333
00:20:42,784 -->
00:20:44,215
now that you've done this for,
334
00:20:46,374 -->
00:20:50,104
look, you and, and like you said, your
colleagues have done this for many
335
00:20:50,104 -->
00:20:54,085
years, but now it's really brought
to the forefront, to a massive scale
336
00:20:54,115 -->
00:20:56,165
to thousands of students per year.
337
00:20:56,804 -->
00:21:00,905
Can we ask, can we talk a little bit
about, so what's the outcome of this?
338
00:21:00,945 -->
00:21:03,385
Like what, what are
students getting out of it?
339
00:21:03,460 -->
00:21:07,070
You know, and have you
seen evidence of it?
340
00:21:07,070 -->
00:21:13,800
You know, like, uh, I think it must be so
cool, Devon, for you to teach the, the,
341
00:21:13,810 -->
00:21:18,919
the, the, you know, the bookend, the, the,
the other end of the bookend class where
342
00:21:18,929 -->
00:21:24,310
you go, well, these students coming out
of, um, you know, courses directed by, by
343
00:21:24,360 -->
00:21:30,380
Tom, um, do they come out You know, coming
to your class, being more reflective
344
00:21:30,910 -->
00:21:33,440
and, and how so does it, does it show?
345
00:21:33,470 -->
00:21:33,910
Yeah.
346
00:21:34,320 -->
00:21:34,760
Yeah.
347
00:21:34,790 -->
00:21:40,469
I think what's been, um, one of the most,
I don't know, unexpected benefits, right?
348
00:21:40,760 -->
00:21:41,990
Particularly with teaching 301.
349
00:21:41,990 -->
00:21:46,969
Um, one of, one of the first kind of
reflection questions students are asked
350
00:21:46,969 -->
00:21:51,280
in the first week of the class is, um,
what's been kind of the most meaningful
351
00:21:51,280 -->
00:21:54,444
General Education class you've taken
to date and why, like, why is that?
352
00:21:54,665 -->
00:21:55,705
Why was it meaningful?
353
00:21:55,705 -->
00:21:56,725
What did you get out of it?
354
00:21:57,205 -->
00:22:01,515
And overwhelmingly, you know, there's
many answers to that question.
355
00:22:01,515 -->
00:22:04,005
Students can choose whatever class
they want, but the seems to be the
356
00:22:04,005 -->
00:22:08,955
most popular answer is it was my Intro
to Gen Ed class, my UNIV 101 class.
357
00:22:09,155 -->
00:22:14,455
And usually the answer is I didn't
see the value at the time, right?
358
00:22:14,825 -->
00:22:16,085
I didn't see the purpose.
359
00:22:16,485 -->
00:22:19,895
I, and actually now I understand, right?
360
00:22:20,045 -->
00:22:20,655
I learned.
361
00:22:21,450 -->
00:22:22,920
Like how to learn, right?
362
00:22:22,980 -->
00:22:25,120
I learned the value of reflection.
363
00:22:25,870 -->
00:22:28,330
You know, they point to all these
different things that they got out of
364
00:22:28,400 -->
00:22:33,279
the class that at the time they might
not have seen or really cared much
365
00:22:33,290 -->
00:22:35,220
about because it's their first semester.
366
00:22:35,230 -->
00:22:39,229
It's, there's so many things happening
in your life when you're starting a
367
00:22:39,230 -->
00:22:45,735
new program, you know, and um, That's
a, that's a pretty profound insight,
368
00:22:45,774 -->
00:22:51,004
um, and I think quite powerful that
we, we don't see otherwise oftentimes
369
00:22:51,004 -->
00:22:54,344
as, as faculty and instructors
when we teach a one off class.
370
00:22:54,364 -->
00:22:59,544
Um, we see, see the students, we, we
interact with them for a certain period of
371
00:22:59,544 -->
00:23:05,484
time and then we hope that what, you know,
the messages that we hope to relay, uh, go
372
00:23:05,484 -->
00:23:07,894
with them and the show up somewhere else.
373
00:23:07,895 -->
00:23:10,864
Um, but it's not often we
actually get to see that.
374
00:23:11,050 -->
00:23:17,220
Learning actualized, um, in, in real time
or some time afterwards and I think that
375
00:23:17,580 -->
00:23:22,719
that's one of the most exciting things
that I find, um, is that students, um, see
376
00:23:22,719 -->
00:23:27,450
the value and they just might not actually
see it in the moment, um, they're starting
377
00:23:27,450 -->
00:23:31,650
to recognize it later and so that's not
to say every student, right, comes to
378
00:23:31,650 -->
00:23:36,135
that realization or and even sometimes
they point about, About the zombies class
379
00:23:36,135 -->
00:23:37,915
or what, you know, pyramids and mummies.
380
00:23:37,915 -->
00:23:40,895
And they're, they can talk
about, oh, like, this is why
381
00:23:40,895 -->
00:23:42,235
I got this out of this class.
382
00:23:42,235 -->
00:23:46,895
And again, as faculty members, I don't
teach that class, but now I can tell,
383
00:23:46,905 -->
00:23:50,185
you know, that faculty member, students
are talking about your class and
384
00:23:50,194 -->
00:23:51,394
here's what they're learning about it.
385
00:23:51,414 -->
00:23:56,284
And if it's through their reflections
or it's in their e portfolio, that
386
00:23:56,304 -->
00:23:58,304
opportunity to engage with that work.
387
00:23:58,324 -->
00:24:03,170
Um, I think is something that is
often missing, um, it's quite a
388
00:24:03,170 -->
00:24:08,450
missed opportunity and something
that we're really excited to kind
389
00:24:08,450 -->
00:24:12,170
of weave, um, for students in
their undergraduate experience.
390
00:24:14,020 -->
00:24:16,809
And you know, by how we defined
it earlier, that these things are
391
00:24:16,830 -->
00:24:19,230
durable and, you know, transferable.
392
00:24:19,550 -->
00:24:22,650
I bet you that if you were to ask
that same thing again, you know,
393
00:24:22,700 -->
00:24:25,134
10 years down the road, I know
it's hard to have these things.
394
00:24:26,135 -->
00:24:28,245
I wish that we can just
like do that, right?
395
00:24:28,485 -->
00:24:32,415
But if you were able to ask like
10, 20 years down the road, it would
396
00:24:32,415 -->
00:24:35,754
have been, um, even more pronounced.
397
00:24:35,905 -->
00:24:39,224
It would be more pronounced that
the student go, I went to college
398
00:24:39,224 -->
00:24:40,445
because I learned how to think.
399
00:24:40,840 -->
00:24:44,820
And I forgot at all together what
some of the content that I did, you
400
00:24:44,820 -->
00:24:47,460
know, but I learned how to think
and learn how to solve problems.
401
00:24:47,460 -->
00:24:50,639
I learned how to reflect,
I learned how to use these.
402
00:24:51,140 -->
00:24:55,499
And I think that's, you know,
probably the even bigger and better
403
00:24:55,500 -->
00:24:57,670
proof that it's hard for us to do.
404
00:24:58,080 -->
00:25:01,710
Um, but you know, I, I bet you that
that's the case, Tom, you must be
405
00:25:01,740 -->
00:25:03,550
pretty proud when people say, Hey.
406
00:25:03,625 -->
00:25:05,495
Univ Univ 101.
407
00:25:05,505 -->
00:25:07,245
That was, uh, that was it.
408
00:25:07,255 -->
00:25:08,695
That was my, that was the moment.
409
00:25:08,705 -->
00:25:10,455
Do you know, it, sure.
410
00:25:10,915 -->
00:25:11,294
Yeah.
411
00:25:11,375 -->
00:25:12,804
I mean, it, it makes me proud.
412
00:25:12,834 -->
00:25:16,885
I think there's, there's one anecdote
in particular that I think I always
413
00:25:16,885 -->
00:25:19,845
go back to and it, and it speaks
to your question about are students
414
00:25:20,964 -->
00:25:26,225
better at reflecting and it had,
it was the, it was the first year.
415
00:25:26,745 -->
00:25:28,715
that we were launching the new program.
416
00:25:29,035 -->
00:25:33,315
Now, only new students are going to be
in this new program, so we still have
417
00:25:33,315 -->
00:25:38,095
to teach out our existing students in
the old General Education curriculum.
418
00:25:38,585 -->
00:25:43,575
And we had a Gen Ed instructor teaching
one of our Exploring Perspective classes,
419
00:25:44,424 -->
00:25:50,015
reach out to our instructional support
team, and say, Wow, I have all of these
420
00:25:50,025 -->
00:25:51,855
students in the new Gen Ed program.
421
00:25:52,580 -->
00:25:56,080
They're so prepared to do
the reflection in my class.
422
00:25:56,420 -->
00:25:59,779
Do you have any strategies I can
give to the students in the old Gen
423
00:25:59,779 -->
00:26:01,569
Ed program to help them catch up?
424
00:26:02,059 -->
00:26:05,809
Because they're not, they're not
reflecting at the same level as the
425
00:26:05,809 -->
00:26:09,179
students who have gone through this
class that has actually systematically.
426
00:26:09,835 -->
00:26:12,575
Engage them in the habits
and skills of reflection.
427
00:26:12,985 -->
00:26:17,885
And I think that, that piece of
evidence, right, anecdotal as it
428
00:26:17,885 -->
00:26:22,994
is, is something that I, I point
to because it's, it's very clear.
429
00:26:23,355 -->
00:26:26,944
Students might not see it in the moment,
they might not see the value of it in
430
00:26:26,944 -->
00:26:32,264
the moment, but just the act of doing
it every week for an entire semester,
431
00:26:33,294 -->
00:26:38,420
right, it's, It's like if you go for
a long walk every day, you might not
432
00:26:38,420 -->
00:26:42,250
notice that you're getting stronger,
but like, you're getting stronger.
433
00:26:42,310 -->
00:26:47,350
Um, and, and we, and we do see it,
um, in their work, which is, I think,
434
00:26:47,350 -->
00:26:53,010
really, that's, that's the exciting part
for me, is that we can see the actual
435
00:26:53,010 -->
00:26:55,085
growth in And how they're thinking.
436
00:26:56,575 -->
00:27:01,025
And I've heard similar sentiments
from other people and actually there's
437
00:27:01,025 -->
00:27:07,144
even one additional piece, which is,
but as far as the content, you know,
438
00:27:07,145 -->
00:27:09,565
sometimes that's completely gone.
439
00:27:09,575 -->
00:27:13,144
Even by the second semester, like
students don't even remember what they
440
00:27:13,145 -->
00:27:15,655
read about or what that was all about.
441
00:27:15,945 -->
00:27:19,524
But it didn't matter because
that wasn't the point, right?
442
00:27:19,534 -->
00:27:24,624
The point of it was, no, we want you to,
we want you to exercise that part of your
443
00:27:24,624 -->
00:27:27,705
brain muscle, which is how do you reflect?
444
00:27:27,705 -->
00:27:30,825
How do you solve problem based on
these, you know, like, how do you come
445
00:27:30,825 -->
00:27:33,564
up with big, bigger, newer questions?
446
00:27:33,825 -->
00:27:35,584
How do you come up with
visions of the world?
447
00:27:35,634 -->
00:27:39,594
And these is the, these are the reflection
becomes the basic building block.
448
00:27:40,245 -->
00:27:41,855
How you answer all of these things.
449
00:27:41,965 -->
00:27:43,665
Can I tell my C story, Devon?
450
00:27:43,745 -->
00:27:44,254
Yeah.
451
00:27:44,725 -->
00:27:44,865
Okay.
452
00:27:45,085 -->
00:27:45,875
This is my favorite thing.
453
00:27:46,105 -->
00:27:50,675
I, I, I had to take a computer programming
class as an undergraduate, Jeff.
454
00:27:52,055 -->
00:27:52,724
I hated it.
455
00:27:53,335 -->
00:27:54,215
Absolutely hated it.
456
00:27:54,434 -->
00:27:57,145
I have had no intention of
being a computer programmer.
457
00:27:57,195 -->
00:27:59,314
This is 25 plus years ago, right?
458
00:27:59,314 -->
00:28:00,195
That's a long time ago.
459
00:28:01,335 -->
00:28:01,955
I had to learn C
460
00:28:05,350 -->
00:28:06,409
Never used it since.
461
00:28:07,019 -->
00:28:10,870
Two years ago when I wrote about this
story, I had a like, Google C I'm like, I
462
00:28:10,870 -->
00:28:12,499
don't, is this even the language anymore?
463
00:28:12,509 -->
00:28:13,889
I don't even know if
people still use this.
464
00:28:14,219 -->
00:28:14,639
It is.
465
00:28:16,590 -->
00:28:17,330
I've never used it.
466
00:28:17,879 -->
00:28:23,019
But I will tell you, when I sit down to
an Excel spreadsheet, and I write like,
467
00:28:23,050 -->
00:28:27,889
super complicated formulas, and people
are like, how did you learn to do that?
468
00:28:27,899 -->
00:28:30,899
I've never taken a class in Excel.
469
00:28:31,510 -->
00:28:33,820
I took a class in C 25 years ago.
470
00:28:34,030 -->
00:28:35,790
It taught me how to
think like a programmer.
471
00:28:35,810 -->
00:28:40,890
It taught me about computer syntax, about,
about computer language, about thinking
472
00:28:40,890 -->
00:28:47,390
about punctuation, and, and that, and
so now I can write really complicated
473
00:28:47,390 -->
00:28:51,480
formulas in Excel, not because I took an
Excel class, but because I learned it.
474
00:28:52,020 -->
00:28:55,939
how to think like a computer
programmer 25 years ago.
475
00:28:56,459 -->
00:28:59,659
Um, and that to me is the power
of General Education, right?
476
00:28:59,679 -->
00:29:04,399
Like you, you learn this way of
thinking, the content doesn't matter.
477
00:29:04,600 -->
00:29:08,919
In, in most fields, if they're doing
their job, the content's going to be
478
00:29:10,840 -->
00:29:13,010
irrelevant in 15, 20 years, right?
479
00:29:13,440 -->
00:29:14,950
But it's the way of thinking, right?
480
00:29:14,970 -->
00:29:19,710
Like I learned to think in this
way and that, that thinking is.
481
00:29:21,105 -->
00:29:22,285
Where all the value is.
482
00:29:24,225 -->
00:29:28,284
It's, it's so crystallized in sort
of where you stand in this, in
483
00:29:28,284 -->
00:29:34,105
this, in the, in the pedagogy, and
that you are so willing to put all
484
00:29:34,105 -->
00:29:37,254
that into practice and in scale.
485
00:29:37,264 -->
00:29:41,354
So it's not, I mean, I think I've
seen in a lot of institutions, they're
486
00:29:41,354 -->
00:29:46,504
like, well, we experiment with this
one little group, um, and it does well.
487
00:29:47,125 -->
00:29:50,555
But then there's always a but, but
probably because of that smaller group
488
00:29:50,555 -->
00:29:53,935
of people because they were in this
college and they naturally do better.
489
00:29:54,315 -->
00:29:58,095
Um, you know, there's always some
excuse and why it wasn't going to work.
490
00:29:58,515 -->
00:30:05,815
And for University of Arizona to,
um, take on this Kind of endeavor,
491
00:30:05,865 -->
00:30:10,045
you know, this reform at this scale
at this level and doing it so, so
492
00:30:10,045 -->
00:30:14,215
progressively to be able to just go,
we're going to really, you know, make
493
00:30:14,215 -->
00:30:20,425
this part of part of this and you're
able to see the results, um, like this.
494
00:30:20,455 -->
00:30:22,675
I am just so.
495
00:30:22,990 -->
00:30:27,720
Um, in all, and I, I feel like
there are a lot of institutions who,
496
00:30:28,050 -->
00:30:31,070
hopefully, if any of them are listening,
they're, they're probably thinking
497
00:30:31,080 -->
00:30:35,460
about, well, we are going through our
own reform, our own sort of refresh.
498
00:30:35,740 -->
00:30:40,480
Uh, we also have our Gen Ed program for
25 years and we hadn't done anything,
499
00:30:40,540 -->
00:30:42,220
and we've been talking about it.
500
00:30:42,620 -->
00:30:50,765
Um, I hope that they can see what you
all have done and, and, um, you And, and
501
00:30:50,775 -->
00:30:57,585
store that as a, as a, as a source for, of
hope that that could happen for them too.
502
00:30:58,335 -->
00:31:02,635
And I really think that it's, um, you
know, I, I just came back from a, well,
503
00:31:02,635 -->
00:31:06,235
I didn't just come, I came back, you
know, I went to a Gen Ed conference in,
504
00:31:06,295 -->
00:31:13,115
in October and I feel like there were,
you know, Folks that are on the other
505
00:31:13,115 -->
00:31:18,545
side of before the reform or during the
reform, you know, or the trying to get
506
00:31:18,545 -->
00:31:24,305
a reform going, um, sometimes they feel
like this is never going to happen because
507
00:31:25,025 -->
00:31:30,345
Faculty Senate wasn't going to let us
or, um, actually you mentioned earlier
508
00:31:30,345 -->
00:31:35,440
Board of Regents, um, you know, in some of
those, and then you Some programs in some
509
00:31:35,440 -->
00:31:41,480
states where certain things are banned
and they are having to do these kinds of
510
00:31:41,480 -->
00:31:48,600
reforms with hands tied and, and, and in
very restrictive, um, you know, manners.
511
00:31:48,600 -->
00:31:51,060
It makes life very, very difficult.
512
00:31:51,480 -->
00:31:56,120
Um, but I, I think that what you have done
here serves as an amazing example of what.
513
00:31:56,440 -->
00:31:59,460
Can happen, um, if you prioritize it.
514
00:32:00,260 -->
00:32:06,110
Yeah, I, you know, I'll add that I think
maintaining the focus on what's in the
515
00:32:06,110 -->
00:32:08,440
interest and response to students, right?
516
00:32:08,810 -->
00:32:13,570
The institutional support then
makes it actualized, right?
517
00:32:13,640 -->
00:32:21,030
Um, and that also the work that
we're doing in 101 and 301, having
518
00:32:21,030 -->
00:32:25,460
a common first year seminar focused
on General Education, building.
519
00:32:25,695 -->
00:32:27,705
A General Education e portfolio.
520
00:32:28,445 -->
00:32:30,395
Like these don't exist in a vacuum.
521
00:32:30,395 -->
00:32:36,755
We, we operate on a campus that has
tremendous like high impact practices
522
00:32:36,755 -->
00:32:40,535
and meaningful learning experiences
for many different students.
523
00:32:40,555 -->
00:32:47,070
Um, and I think that recognizing that
that work is also, like, this isn't the
524
00:32:47,150 -->
00:32:49,510
only ePortfolio a student creates, right?
525
00:32:49,520 -->
00:32:53,220
They're creating ePortfolios
in other Gen Ed classes, right?
526
00:32:53,960 -->
00:32:58,900
And to recognize that experience and to
see that as, well, this is a tremendous
527
00:32:58,900 -->
00:33:03,410
opportunity because now students are,
you know, Getting practice with this
528
00:33:03,430 -->
00:33:08,620
way of thinking and engaging in their
learning so that it isn't the first
529
00:33:08,630 -->
00:33:11,810
time that they're doing something
because we know that then that kind of
530
00:33:11,810 -->
00:33:14,430
practice makes it more easier to recall.
531
00:33:14,500 -->
00:33:19,430
It makes then the depth of their
work uh, more robust, right?
532
00:33:19,440 -->
00:33:26,385
And, um, I think that also then makes it
feel Everyone has a seat at the table.
533
00:33:26,385 -->
00:33:33,935
Everyone's work can be valued and
that students can engage in multiple
534
00:33:34,395 -->
00:33:36,425
experiences that are meaningful.
535
00:33:36,425 -->
00:33:40,765
And we know contribute to ultimately
their learning and their success here.
536
00:33:40,795 -->
00:33:44,245
And I think that that then
makes it feel like there's more
537
00:33:44,245 -->
00:33:46,305
opportunities to collaborate.
538
00:33:47,375 -->
00:33:51,215
To get buy in and to make
the work more sustainable.
539
00:33:51,275 -->
00:33:55,875
Um, so, you know, I think that that's
an opportunity to look for as well.
540
00:33:56,425 -->
00:34:01,235
Um, because one, one solution
isn't going to work for everybody.
541
00:34:01,255 -->
00:34:05,605
There's many different possibilities,
um, and, and good work that's happening.
542
00:34:05,615 -->
00:34:08,995
It's just, how do you recognize
that work and, and amplify it so
543
00:34:08,995 -->
00:34:10,655
more students can get connected?
544
00:34:10,865 -->
00:34:14,405
I, I want to, can I plug
something for you, uh, Devon?
545
00:34:14,425 -->
00:34:14,455
Sure.
546
00:34:15,270 -->
00:34:22,000
I know that you, I know that you and, um,
a number of your colleagues had, um, uh,
547
00:34:22,060 -->
00:34:29,790
published a, an article, um, in, um, at
the International Journal of e-portfolio.
548
00:34:29,850 -->
00:34:34,680
Uh, article is named Connecting the
Dots, utilizing Learning Portfolio in a
549
00:34:34,680 -->
00:34:37,260
large scale General Education curriculum.
550
00:34:37,580 -->
00:34:40,200
And I, um, I.
551
00:34:41,090 -->
00:34:44,230
I find it to be an incredible article.
552
00:34:44,310 -->
00:34:50,790
Um, one of the things that I, uh, really
love is, is that you said learning
553
00:34:50,790 -->
00:34:55,310
portfolio can act as a constellation,
the work of connecting the dots.
554
00:34:56,040 -->
00:35:00,340
And I just think that's so beautiful
because stars themselves, you know,
555
00:35:00,380 -->
00:35:02,310
each individual star means something.
556
00:35:02,310 -->
00:35:06,160
It's, it's cool, but it's the
constellation that makes meaning.
557
00:35:06,580 -->
00:35:08,570
And, and I, I just love that.
558
00:35:08,570 -->
00:35:13,160
I think that's such a beautiful
and poetic, um, illustration
559
00:35:13,160 -->
00:35:14,610
of the work that you're doing.
560
00:35:14,980 -->
00:35:15,640
Congratulations.
561
00:35:16,410 -->
00:35:16,900
Yes.
562
00:35:17,340 -->
00:35:17,670
Yeah.
563
00:35:17,700 -->
00:35:23,420
It was exciting to realize and, um,
document for, even for ourselves, right.
564
00:35:23,470 -->
00:35:27,155
Uh, and being able to share that
work and the, Tremendous effort
565
00:35:27,205 -->
00:35:30,495
of many of our colleagues on this
campus and, and where we're headed.
566
00:35:30,495 -->
00:35:31,645
So thanks.
567
00:35:32,125 -->
00:35:33,505
Well, you're practicing what you preach.
568
00:35:33,515 -->
00:35:37,035
You're making your own work visible
first to yourself, but now to the world.
569
00:35:37,415 -->
00:35:39,385
Um, I think that's, that's lovely.
570
00:35:40,115 -->
00:35:43,735
Um, well, Hey, listen, I am a
such a big fan of both of you.
571
00:35:43,920 -->
00:35:48,770
And I hope you all continue this
amazing work at University of Arizona.
572
00:35:48,820 -->
00:35:52,810
I hope that we get to touch base
again, maybe in a few years, we're
573
00:35:52,810 -->
00:35:55,840
going to be like, Hey, now we've grown
in these other directions as well.
574
00:35:56,240 -->
00:35:59,690
And maybe we can have that, like,
Hey, we actually did go and talk
575
00:35:59,690 -->
00:36:03,490
to some students after the graduate
and they say, University of 101
576
00:36:03,655 -->
00:36:05,325
It was still the bomb, right?
577
00:36:10,075 -->
00:36:10,675
All right.
578
00:36:10,695 -->
00:36:13,675
Thank you both again for joining us today.
579
00:36:13,735 -->
00:36:19,265
Um, for listeners, if you, uh, want
to learn more about, um, uh, Devon
580
00:36:19,285 -->
00:36:25,125
and Thomas's work, um, I will, um,
be, um, posting some links to, you
581
00:36:25,125 -->
00:36:28,155
know, their, their, you know, the
gender, gender education program.
582
00:36:28,315 -->
00:36:32,935
I'll post links to that, uh, article
that I, I just talked about and, uh, any
583
00:36:32,935 -->
00:36:35,785
other links if you guys want to share,
we'll, we'll include those as well.
584
00:36:36,035 -->
00:36:41,015
Uh, but, uh, thank you again so much
for being, um, I really appreciate,
585
00:36:41,015 -->
00:36:44,685
uh, being a leader in this and,
and doing such meaningful things.
586
00:36:45,015 -->
00:36:48,975
Especially at this kind of scale,
it takes, it takes real courage and,
587
00:36:48,985 -->
00:36:53,785
and, and, uh, and effort and, uh,
and, uh, and the hard work you put in
588
00:36:53,795 -->
00:36:55,215
there, you know, is really showing.
589
00:36:55,215 -->
00:36:58,409
And I think that, um, you
know, literally, yeah.
590
00:36:58,820 -->
00:37:02,320
Many, many tens of thousands of
students are going to benefit from
591
00:37:02,320 -->
00:37:05,630
this and this is really, you know,
one of the most exciting things that
592
00:37:05,630 -->
00:37:07,620
I, I see in, in, in higher education.
593
00:37:07,620 -->
00:37:11,020
So, um, really appreciate
everything that you've done.
594
00:37:11,590 -->
00:37:12,150
Thank you.
595
00:37:12,160 -->
00:37:12,540
Thank you.
596
00:37:12,600 -->
00:37:13,440
Thanks for having us.
597
00:37:14,570 -->
00:37:14,910
Okay.
598
00:37:15,080 -->
00:37:15,530
Take care.
599
00:37:16,640 -->
00:37:20,800
Coming up next, we'll be chatting
with Whitney Fountain Ruiz, a recent
600
00:37:20,800 -->
00:37:23,390
graduate of Arizona State University.
601
00:37:23,630 -->
00:37:24,770
Here's a quick preview.
602
00:37:25,000 -->
00:37:29,790
I did try to get him but I wanted
him to understand it is okay.
603
00:37:30,915 -->
00:37:35,555
You make mistakes, but if you make a
mistake, you can also ask questions
604
00:37:35,685 -->
00:37:39,485
until you, um, get help or find
the answer that you're looking for.
