THE MATRIX (1999) | AI Ethics: Is the Wachowski Technological Horror Story Coming True?

Ryan Does: Hey, everybody, we are jumping into a conversation about the Matrix and how we relate to artificial intelligence here today in our modern world with Michael Morelli. So, Michael, I just want you to maybe reintroduce yourself, to tell people a little bit about yourself and what work you find yourself doing. And then ⁓ we'll talk about how you were introduced to the 1999 spectacular film, The Matrix. And I know, listener, if you're sitting there and you're like, The Matrix, I thought we were talking about horror movies. Don't worry, we will get to that. And why The Matrix is actually more of a horror movie than you're giving it credit for. Yeah. Well, thanks thanks for having me, Ryan. ⁓ I love me some movie talk. I'm I'm happy to be here. My name's Michael. I am the world pickleball champion. No, I'm not. I just watched I realized that was amongst royalties. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ no, I I've I have played pickleball, but I'm not professional by any stretch of the term. ⁓ Yeah, I ⁓ teach theology and ethics at a school called Northwest College and Seminary. It's on campus of a Christian liberal arts ⁓ university called Trinity Western in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, which is like a couple hours away from Seattle again to situate us geographically. ⁓ I've been married for nearly eleven years. Got two sons, nine and five. And ⁓ that is a lot of my life. You know, going to soccer, games and practices, gymnastics practices and tournaments. And in my spare time, I like music and movies and food. Love me some food. That's kinda that's kind of what people need to know. Absolutely. I I I find it funny, ⁓ that ⁓ you say I I like I like music. I like movies. I like food. Those are all things that, you know, glitch glitch real humans love. Real humans enjoy all those things. We're gonna talk about some simulations, some artificial, some artificial settings today. And I I just I I gotta I gotta know because it's such an iconic movie. How were you introduced to The Matrix? You know, this is a tricky one because I I don't remember clearly in my mind when I first watched it. I'm pretty sure it was with My older brother or brothers and we probably rented it from Blockbuster. That's the extent of my memory. Yeah. And so I graduated in two thousand and four. So what what's the math? I don't know, I was a teenager. So yeah. And I remember being so enthralled with it. It was so cool. ⁓ my gosh. ⁓ Absolutely. It's ⁓ it's one of those movies where I also don't remember the exact exact point at which I watched it for the first time, which I almost feel like plays into the theme of the movie itself, where we didn't we don't know when our relationship with The Matrix started. ⁓ we just know that it's felt real all this all this time. Did recently rewatch this movie because my younger sister in law had never seen The Matrix. And I believe she was trying to quote it or she was trying to reference it and and I think you've seen the Matri Matrix that evening. It was so funny watching it now 30 feet anxious the entire time. See of the world. And I turn over and I'm just like Did you like did you love this movie? And and she was just like How dare you How dare you? This movie was ⁓ awesome and cool you know the first time I saw it, but now I'm just this is much more than I I I gave credit. Like, hey Ryan, I thought you were talking project. Well may may get your read on this. What about the matrix do you find or dreadful substance in this conversation? I I I I have my own thoughts on this, but I would just love to know yours ⁓ before we jump into the details discussion questions about AI. Do you want You wanna do your question again? Just because it was kinda glitchy on my end, I think it I think it's catching up, but you were kinda glitching in and out and I didn't catch your question. ⁓ wait, it's kinda Okay, I think we're good now. I think I'm getting now. It was glitching a little bit. Are you good? Yeah, I think we're good now. Okay. Cool. So listener, you might be sitting there thinking, Well, why why are we talking about the Matrix? I thought we were talking about horror movies with this project, but I think it's maybe important for us To establish what we personally find so horrifying about the Matrix and give it that kind of genre twist before we get into our details and our conversation about AI. So, Michael, what do you find especially horrifying or dreadful about the Matrix that makes it appropriate for this kind of project? Yeah, that's a great question. and I wanna say too, it was really fun going back to watch it because it is kind of classified as an action film. Yeah. Mixed with sci-fi with horror elements. Yeah. But one of the things that was really interesting about watching it was that there were a lot of action sequences, but the way in which it was edited, the pacing of it, is a lot slower than the type of action movies we're used to now. And so it almost increased the drama Aspect that I didn't feel when I first watched it. Now I'm a lot older, so I'm I'm not just interested in like Neo with a gun and like floating and carpenters and stuff. But I felt like it was just a really nice palette cleanser in the sense of there is action, but it's not like a Marvel movie where everything is like a jump cut. So that was lovely. You're right. You want an action movie night, but not like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah. Crying, drawn out a little bit. I'm like, this this this is this is your film. But I think this is why the film is so cool and still holds up because for me it still held up, even even the effects. There was one or two parts where I was like, ⁓ yeah, you can tell it that's like flying green screen stuff. But most of it it it still holds up. But there's definitely horror elements incorporated incorporated incorporated? Integrated, whatever. There's also like film noir, there's western and action all mixed into one, which is I think why it's such a interesting watch for people and still holds up. But you know, it it is just sort of objectively horrible when Neo's mouth is glued. It's objectively horrifying when they, you know, put the electric bug in him. Like there are elements of it that are just truly horrifying. And of course, watching it where we are now with artificial intelligence becoming as mainstream as it is, the theme of the film basically artificial intelligence got out of control leads to a kind of end of the world and a post apocalyptic existence where we're all enslaved by AI and turned into to batteries. It's it's not necessarily, you know, Jason or Michael Myers like running around with a machete or a knife, but like just playing that out in terms of a plot in a scenario, you're like, ⁓ I'm actually kind of scared now. Yeah, you got me. Yeah. Well, i cause because back then, like AI was such a secondary or tertiary theme, right? I don't I don't even know it registered for me as a teenager when he's talking about we don't know who discovered it first. them or us, and he's referring to the the singularity, which is the term used to describe when artificial intelligence becomes fully intelligent, sentient, autonomous, and in the case of this film, like violent and oppressive towards humans. Back then you're like, ⁓ this is just a vehicle for a really cool story and kung fu and shooting stuff. But but now you're like, shoot. Okay, this is I gotta dig into this a bit more. Yeah, there's a little, there's a little more, there's a little more there than I maybe thought at first. And for me personally, the thing I find the most horrifying about the Matrix is that at many, many different times, you don't know if we're in the real world or if we're in the simulation. And the fact that Neo lives most of what he believes is his life within a fabrication. That doesn't get you at least a little existentially uneasy. I I d I I don't know how you have conquered that feeling. Maybe you took the blue pill. I don't know. ⁓ dissociation, Ryan. It's called dissociation. Okay. It's called living I don't know if I've if I've exited the matrix. That's that's done and dusted on that one then. We're gonna dig into our conversation with a little bit of details and then ⁓ we'll discuss ⁓ we'll discuss ⁓ artificial intelligence and how we relate with it. And this was actually ⁓ one of the things that ⁓ Michael and I first discussed in person at ⁓ an event called Theology Beer Camp. ⁓ so ⁓ he had been on a panel about this topic and integrating ⁓ he integrated the movie Wild Robot into his presentation. And I thought that was incredibly thought-provoking. So we're gonna attempt that same kind of conversation with The Matrix. ⁓ this movie came out in 1999. It was directed by the Wikowski's and it stars Keanu Reeves, Lawrence Fishburne, Carrie Ann Moss. And Hugo Weaving. The story of The Matrix goes like this. It follows a hacker named Neo who discovers that his daily life is happening within an artificial reality called the Matrix. With help from Morpheus and Trinity, Neo learns more about how his version of reality was created by machines to harvest human energy and keep them enslaved. Through training within the matrix, Neo learns to manipulate the simulation. And battles sentient agents to free humanity. Now, Michael, before we keep using artificial intelligence, the phrase too heavily without defining it, as a someone who teaches in theology and ethics, how do you define artificial intelligence for the sake of this conversation? Yeah, very basically I would say at this point, artificial intelligence is advanced computing that can perform tasks, recognize patterns, simulate personality in a way that humans do all of those things. So another way that I say it's like machine learning. So at this point, we're not at a Matrix or Terminator or any other sci-fi story. As far as I know, because there's some people like, well, there could be a move to actual sentience and autonomy. without us knowing. Maybe. But as far as we know, we haven't reached the point of autonomous machines. We've we only see the simulation of autonomy and intelligence. That being said, it's it's pretty powerful. Not only can it, you know, answers to questions that you would ask a search engine and do it in a way that seems to be more information information rich and do it with a personality. ⁓ it can also create Songs, well, use the term creation loose. Yeah, I was gonna say generate term ⁓ generate images, music and you know, writings and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. ⁓ but but basically it's it's kind of ⁓ the next stage in our computing technology in the sense of well, it's data inputs and outputs. So you give a prompt to something like Chat GPT and you ask it for something and it scrapes its data set. for information and it presents that to you in a synthesized way with a personality. And so it's kind of like Google, I say, you know, something like ChatGPT, but it's just higher powered and it's delivered with a personality. But it that's kind of the demystified definition. And we could we could get even more nuanced and different types and stuff. But yeah, it's performance a task, right? So you could use, you know, data sets to you know, operate machinery on an assembly line or that sort of thing. And and those things have been around for a while, but I think it's really entered the mainstream and popular consciousness and everyday use in a way that you know, five, ten years ago, ⁓ it just wasn't at the stage that it is now. Five, ten years ago it still felt like we were you're talking about a science fiction movie that I haven't seen yet. And it's like, I can do this, can do that. It's like, okay, well, I'll I'll I'll wait to see the movie when it comes out. But to me, it kind of it it felt like it was that far away. I think technologically I'm I'm behind the eight ball. I am a bad millennial when it comes to tech and things like that. Every everything current still feels in the future for me. ⁓ so I I'm just I I'm I'm I'm bad at that, which is why I want to have conversations like this, because I want to understand how how I'm supposed to relate with that because I I I identify with Neo at the beginning of this movie when kind of the veil he didn't see the veil come down, but he f sees the the glitch. He sees a little bit of that a little bit of that truth coming through and it creates this doubt and this anxiety in him. I I think for artificial intelligence and the prevalence of it in modern culture to not induce anxiety would feel weird for me because it it does. It causes me anxiety from from time to time. And I relate with Neo in that. Do you see how do you see people's relationship with artificial intelligence on the whole, or maybe some different representations of it now? Do you see more anxiety? Because of it, or do you see more over trust in it? What are you seeing from your vantage point as someone who deals with technology and ethics in your studies? Well, I think there are people who are quite opposed to it. And that could be more on a philosophical level or practical level. Then there are people who are, you know, public figures who are very vocally opposed to it. And even you know, people who have worked in this world who are now whistleblowers or sounding the alarm and saying, like, we need to we need to pump the brakes on this. And then there are people who are quite enthralled with this and not sure why people are so worried about it. And whether that's people who are also working in this world and sort of selling the idea of this and the the benefits and maybe not necessarily the safety, but like ⁓ well, there are risks, but the the benefits outweigh the risks. And then there are people who are less mystified by this point and more just, well, yeah, I use it as an assistant to write emails. I use it to edit documents for work. I use it to generate images for my PowerPoint. ⁓ and so there's kind of like a mundane acceptance of it and incorporation of it into their daily life. So I think it's a it's it's a mixed bag at this point. ⁓ but I and more on your side of I've used it for things before, but most of the everyday things that I do, I I consciously avoid it because for me it it shortcuts integral things about being a human that doing them and having it take longer actually is a benefit, right? So things like writing, things like speaking, things like, you know, music and all that. I am opposed to inserting artificial intelligence into those processes because it's not just about the end product for me, it's also about the process. So I at this point I'm not neo in the sense of I'm searching for this splinter in my mind. You use that word, like because I'm worried that we're secretly like, you know, hibernation and all this is a computer simulation. Right. The splinter in my mind is that it's it it's it's probably a more ⁓ banal dystopia or atopia of like we're not gonna get destroyed by Terminator robots, we're just becoming lazier and therefore like sl slow death by a thousand artificial intelligence paper cuts as compared to like we need John Connor to save us or Neo to beat up Agent Smith. But I'm not at that level. But there's this identification with yeah, like a general something is rotten in the state of Denmark feeling. But that extends to so much in our world, for me, not just artificial intelligence. Right. To me, the way you were describing that makes me think of how wild animals became domesticated animals. ⁓ how a wild horse becomes a domesticated horse. There's a certain breaking process. This feels like a very our comfortability with it. feels like a very passive breaking process. It's not necessarily breaking the will overtly. It is more the constant pets on the head like shh, it'll be fine. Shh, it'll be okay. Shh. Like get more comfortable with it. Get more comfortable with it. And then eventually you won't even realize that the paddock is built around you. That is a great analogy. I love analogies and I haven't heard that one used for this, but that is very, very apt. I love that. I'm gonna use it in future conversations and I'm gonna cite you every time. You're right. Yeah. It's the gradual breaking of the wild horse. It's ⁓ that'll be my one academic ⁓ contribution to to work, I guess. There isn't And then you play Rolling Rolling Stones Wild Horses. I mean really it write it writes itself. It writes itself. We don't need we don't need artificial intelligence to write this script. No, that was genuine human brain at work right there. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, that that's that's that's the you know living out here in the Midwest in agriculture country, you don't see wild animals. You don't see the wild version of an animal that's been domesticated out here. There aren't there aren't herds of wild cattle going around. There aren't, you know, these pockets of wild pigs going around. ⁓ wild horses, no, not not generally out here in my neck of the woods. You see mostly domestication and usually domestication for the domestication for the purpose of production. So you'll see these semis going by with cattle, with hogs, ⁓ with chickens in them, just so you know, they're not going to a fun farm upstate. They are like the humans in The Matrix, they are being farmed. There is there is not this calm, idyllic, you know, the shire ⁓ kind of view of how they interdo interact with these animals. They're being farmed like the people in the matrix. And at a certain point in the film. Neo does wake up. He wakes up in this pod and he's in this like Vaseline jelly concoction. And he wakes up and his eyes hurt because he's never actually used his eyes. Now, I know you said, Michael, we're like, you don't believe we're at that point where it's like, ⁓ man, we're gonna wake up from this simulation someday and they're gonna pull that giant needle out of our neck and we're just gonna be like, ⁓ gosh, I can't see. But in Neo's example of waking up for the first time. Is there something we can take from that that he sees with his real eyes for the first time? Because he's been so accustomed to seeing the artificial reality in front of him. Is there is there something in that as you find profound or I've identified watching The Matrix? Yeah, absolutely. I think it again is a ⁓ less Hollywood version, but no less disturbing if you if you really think about it. Yeah, I think about it in the terms of I have a friend who teaches middle school, for example. Yeah. And he so I'm gonna use a negative example, but I'm actually gonna use a positive example too, talking about younger generations because there's nothing more problematic than millennials and Gen Xers and boomers talking about Gen Z and Gen Alpha. Like they're the problem when it comes to technology. Cause honestly I'll say this again and again. Older you get in terms of generations, the worse it becomes technically. ⁓ my god, yes. But this is just an example that can be cited, right? He said ⁓ what he does is he's got a wall in his classroom that has ⁓ different faces with different facial expressions, and then like the word that describes that facial expression and the emotion that is attached to to it. And he says when he starts the day often, he'll he'll get all the kids to go to the wall and and pick the face, word, and emotion that they're feeling that day. And he's like, This is one of the hardest things to get them to do. Self-awareness and just being able to communicate, this is how I feel today. Studies show that there's a connection between screens, lack of self-awareness, right? Lack of emotional awareness and and language and development, right? So it's, you know, you you talk to some people and they don't make eye contact and it's almost like they're in kind of an autopilot mode or or withdrawn. ⁓ It's that it's that look that you get, you know, when you see someone in a coffee shop or an airport or whatever and they're just waiting for something and they're kind of absentmindedly staring at their phone and scrolling it. It's kind of like the everyday existence is in that mode and therefore self-awareness and other awareness, it's so so low that your ability to know how you are and therefore relate to other human beings is like severely inhibited. And I think that's not just happening to like younger generations. I think that's happening to everybody. Absolutely. But but the positive example I want to give is I've got undergrad students now who are like, I'm off social media. Like I see what it's doing to me and I'm I am off it. Like for the foreseeable future, or them choosing phones that aren't smartphones, or they may have on top of like the basic functions of like call and text, they may be able to connect to social media, but the phone screen is like black and white and like sixteen or thirty-two bit. So they're like they I can check social media, but the graphics are so bad, I don't check it often. And flip phones, like I had a student who had like this massive like flip phone and I was like, wow, that's haven't seen one of those for a while. And he's yeah. He's like, I just got this for my own well being. So you see a young generation like being very negatively affected, but also a lot of them being like, I see what is doing to me and I see what is doing to to older folks and I'm out. So, but I think those are examples of of the sort of more everyday common things. And then there are extreme examples of like People who are being really radicalized online in various ways in the in the types of damage and violence that leads to. So yeah, I mean, you know, you don't have to be hibernating in a goo vat with all these electrodes on you to not use your eyes or be in touch with your true self and emotions and body and so forth. Like, you know, you it could be that, but it could be just something a little less invasive. Well Not less invasive invasive, but just not in that evident way. Yeah. Bringing up those multiple different ways that you've seen students in your classes interact with this prevalence of technology being everywhere. Not just like we have a desktop in a space of our house called the computer room. No, the computer room is in your pocket now. The computer room is all around you. I love that that to me signifies. A cycle that humanity has always had with technology. Is there's this technology crashes in, it promises to do something, it promises to make something easier or make something more possible, or it can take you here, it can take you there. And some there's there's a variable of lots of different interactions that some people, you know, I'm sure when the car came around, people are like, Nope, that's the devil's work. I'm not messing with a car. I'm not why would I why I have a perfectly good horse? Why would I why would I get a car? I'm sure there's other people who's like, hey, cars, sweet. No rules. Let's just start running over people like five miles an hour. Like there's a big, wide swath of different reactions to technology. And I think one thing that I have seen casually as an observer of integration of artificial intelligence in everyday life, the reactions to it are more often than not. Either strongly pro, strongly con, or like in this very docile middle, which is like it is what it is. And I think that is not to speak, you know, rightly or wrongly of of where people fall in the extremes, but to identify the cycle that we have been through this with technology before. That we have opened our eyes, we have ⁓ awoken in the goo-vat before. And this is the newest. Iteration of us waking up to something that can feel overwhelming and crushing. Is that a cycle that maybe you've seen before or you can identify in history to maybe add to that? For sure. And actually, this is something I've talked about before is there is a way to view any technological development as totally new and unexpected. And I think often when people view it that way, it actually is is not looking at the deeper realities that if you just dwell on them a little bit more, you see, well, maybe this particular innovation is new and it's and it's raised some questions. But actually, as you're saying here, humans have been playing around with technology forever. And ⁓ a lot of the problems and a lot of the benefits are evident. Ever since we've been playing with them. And so if you if if you frame it as a as a consistent human phenomenon, then you start to see like, well, actually people have been asking similar questions all along. And this is just surfacing it again in an in a a way that seems new. Think about examples. Well, I mean, you talk about the automobile, but even like the train, like the first time people went on the train, it was like they were throwing up from just the motion and The experience of being on something moving at that pace. Like it was and now we think that's so slow and how could that happen, right? Or even in in a movie theater, I think one of the first films shown in a in a movie theater was of a train. Right. And yeah. ⁓ I was thinking of the same example. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And and people it it felt so realistic that they were like running out of the movie theater thinking they were gonna be run over. And and so you're like, wow, that's silly. But in a way, like this this could be our train, ⁓ actual or cinematic. Well, I think one of the things that is concerning though is like the scale of the AI advancement and not just sort of the trust that people are putting in it. Cause I was talking about this with some friends. What does it say that we're more likely to trust a machine editing our work? A machine that hallucinates and makes stuff up, which ChatGPD does. If we were to go to a human editor and be like, hey, you should work with this editor. They make things up all the time and they hallucinate. You're like, that's not a good editor. I am not going to go to that editor. And yet, like, what does that say that we're more likely to put our trust in a machine that does that stuff, right? Than than we are a human. So that's concerning, but also like the scale of this and just how it's being used and and the the drain on our planet's resources. Yeah. How much power is needed, how much water and and cooling is needed in order to operate the data systems that are running these technologies. It might just cook our planet. And our planet is already getting cooked. So so that's like the other concern of of it is is just the scale of it. But yeah, I mean, we've been asking all along, like, what does this mean about us now as humans? Should we be using this? Shouldn't we be using this? Is it dangerous? Is it good? I'm not using that. ⁓ it's a tool of the devil. Or ⁓ this is the greatest thing ever. It's gonna turn dirt into gold. Like that's a story that's been told from time immemorial. Yeah. It's it's like it's this new modern digital alchemy that we've figured out and finally we can we can make this treasure out of something that was nothing. ⁓ God, it's so, so evident in my own discussions that I've had about artificial intelligence and the usage of it. And and I think within the Matrix, there is a character that I initially was like, ⁓ he's the bad guy. And it's Cypher. Cypher decides To do the opposite of Neo. He decides to take the blue pill because the artificial reality is what he knows. It's comfortable. It's better than the real world that he's been exposed to. So he'll take a fake steak. You talk about the world being cooked. Imagine, you know, the world is right now, we're at like a like a medium well, which is not how I would take a steak ever. I think that's a sin. But but you know, him taking the blue pill is like, how would you like it? Cast well. How would you like it as a hockey puck? And he is like, absolutely. It's the only way I've known how to eat steak. ⁓ he takes it, he makes a decision to give himself over to this, and he he completely gets rid of the thought process of do I want to live a real human life or do I would I am I more comfortable? Am I more I'm more familiar with this artificial reality, even though I know it's fake? How do you see Cypher being? Maybe a little bit of a reflection of how some people have interacted with artificial intelligence up to this point. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. What's interesting is that Cypher originally took the red pill and was pulling out of the pulled out of the Matrix and included in the, you know, the Matrix version of the Rebel Alliance. But after a while, after the struggle, after the bad food, after the unrequited love with Trinity. He's done. He wants to go back to the Matrix and that scene where he's, you know, in the restaurant, the fake restaurant with Agent Smith and Right says ignorance is bliss. I know this bite of steak is fake. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's it's just that conversation is very, very compelling. Sorry. Yeah. No, no, no, exactly. Like I think that the moment that you don't empathize with with Cypher, I think again to go you're cooked because There's a part of me that relates to it. And that's the part of me that, you know, I was thinking about that line in ⁓ Shutter Island at the end where Leonardo DiCaprio turns to the person beside him at the end is like, would you rather die a hero or live with the knowledge that you're a monster? And right, cause he's deluded into thinking he's a hero. And he's like, it seems like he's preferring living under this illusion that he's a hero as compared to waking up to the reality that that he's a monster. And there's there's parts of me that that empathize with that decision, but I'm also the Kierkegaard Guardian in me is like, no, you cannot. Don't do that. That's that's that is a a leap of faith towards self-annihilation. Take a leap of faith towards the struggle. Take the leap of faith towards the abyss. Jump into it in hope that something or someone might catch you. And this is the theme of nihilism that comes up because the Neo doesn't believe in fate. He is not like a religious guy. It's a kind of nothing means anything. And you have to overcome that nothingness with a sheer exertion of your will. And to be totally honest, like if it wasn't an existential Kierkegaard leap of faith into the, you know, into the the arms of Jesus, I would probably be on that side of nihilism, right? And there's the allusion to Jean Baudr well, there's not an illusion, like he gets the the CDs are like little discs from Jean Baudrillard's simulacrens ⁓ simulation, right? You know, we're all living in a hyper real state and whatever, whatever, and you have to admit that. Like so anyway, all that to say is, you know, as as much as as I empathize with with Cypher, ⁓ I also say to myself, there's a there's a there's a no that just like rises up in me. And I hope that it rises up in other people. But there are other people like No, it's it's better than it's ever been and you know the whole Stever Pink Steven Pinker move. Well only eight percent of the people in the world live in total abject poverty. So everything's better Than it ever was, Ryan. Look at all the benefits that technology and capitalism has afforded us. You can go to bed at night knowing that everything's better than it ever has been. So don't listen to those negative, progressive Marxists who just want to ruin everything and steal your money and and make everybody sad. Just it's good. Bill Gates endorsed my book. You know, Bill Gates said this is ⁓ the my favorite book I've ever read. You know why Bill Gates likes that book, the eight percent book. Is because it makes Bill Gates feel like he's a good human being in making the world better. And so that's the no that raises up in me. Yeah. The ⁓ the primal human defiance of like def of defeat, of the long defeat, of like, no, you're you're just gonna live out this simulated existence, ⁓ and eventually someday you'll die. And it's like, well, that doesn't feel like much. ⁓ you know, it's it it's it's funny, like you you mentioned Bill Gates. You mention you know, that one percent billionaire class. It's really funny and rich, ⁓ to me when ⁓ pun intended, I guess. But when they say, you know, like things aren't that bad. It's like, okay, now in the in the depth in in the in the example of the Matrix, imagine the machines telling the people in the goo vats like it's not really that bad. It's like it's warm. You're the one. Yeah, it's It's warm goo. We heated up the goo for we've heard we have heard your complaints. We warmed up the goo. But really, it's like, yeah, the machine gets to say that to the human who's being harvested as a battery because they're the ones that run the system. Like they're trying to get you more and more comfortable with the system because they benefit from the system. Like, come on. How how how is it that difficult? To to grasp, to understand. I'm saying this as if I'm listening to this right now and I I I'm struggling with this everyday anxiety that I have when a when a tippy top person tells me everything's fine, nothing to see here. It's like, okay, well, that makes me think there's everything to see here. And that makes me think that the person that's going to benefit from this situation is the one running the system, not the one being harvested for their battery life, like Neo is being harvested and until he gets free. Yeah, and Agent Smith played by the brilliant Hugo Weaving. Phenomenal. That guy's so good. Whatever he does. That scene where he has Morpheus handcuffed at the end before Morpheus gets rescued and he takes out his little earpiece, which is like the way in which he communicates with the other sentient technology agent things. ⁓ and and he actually like goes from being this robotic agent to A very emotional and human who just kind of leans into Morgan's like, you what? I'm gonna tell you something. I hate the smell of humans. You stink. You are if I could describe humans, you are like a virus. Everything you touch, you ruin. And in that sense, you're like, that is kind of how a lot of people in power and like rich people, ⁓ Act and speak like behind closed doors. It's like, these poor people, they don't know what I've done for them. If we could just get rid of them, everything would be so much better. You're like a foul stench. You know, it's like that's if they just yeah, yeah, yeah. Just get a job, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, whatever. Like, yeah, I mean you you're you're totally right. And that provides the moral justification for like to enslavement and exploitation and brutality, people think that they have earned the right to have that perspective and create structures that that treat people like literal or metaphorical batteries. Yeah. Right. And you know what's crazy? I'm just going to finish this thought. Absolutely. This is this is the this is the classic master slave dialectic because the machines know they need the batteries in order to exist. And that's why they hate them Because they're like, if you aren't there for our energy, right? The production, like we own the means of production. But if you're not there to use those means, we are screwed. And that's putting it lightly. And so that's the source of the hate. That's the secret power of the slave. The slave knows all of the dirty secrets of the master, and the master is terrified they're gonna find out. It gives it reek for me as a as a fan who a fan and as someone who is a Really like I I really like to dig into history and I haven't reached my World War II books about chips a stage of middle age yet, but I'm sure I'll get there at some point. I love that what you just said recontextualized every revolution I've ever read about. The the the ability for a mass populace, the the batteries to look at the machine and be like, ⁓ you actually need us. And I think we just, like Neo, we just awoke to it. Whether it's the slave rebellions or other things that uprisings that have happened throughout fiction and nonfiction, history, the future, there is this moment where humanity almost has its own singularity where it realizes it's like, I think we just figured this out. And and and whether we figure it out and we forget or we figure it out, and then we like Cypher, we just like figured it out. Like I was awoke to this, but you know what? I'm actually more comfortable with them being the master and me just being docile because then I don't have to agitate. There's this other theme that as and as someone who teaches extensively in ethics, I want to know this bit of it where AI has become almost a friend, a spiritual therapeutic mentor voice in people's lives. And we've heard horror stories of how people follow through on certain advice and it has harmful consequences. But I even think of it in more of the mundane routine things of how many times have we seen an ad on ⁓ TikTok or Instagram where it's like, I can be your AI girlfriend or boyfriend, and I'll never say no. It's like, are we ⁓ are we really doing this? Like are we are we creating AI, like like sex slaves out of these? Like I don't I don't know how to specifically define that, but it creates anxiety and unease in me where That projection is promising intimacy, Mike. And that that is deeply uncomfortable. Yeah. It's interesting that you describe those moments of awakening and rebellion as a singularity, because I haven't thought about it that way, but that totally makes sense because it reminds me of Frederick Douglass writing, if I remember correctly, he talks about the moment he became awake was when he actually fought his slave master, not like the guy who was sort of owned all the property and stuff, but like the one of the employees, like this person just, you know, and and finally he rose up and and fought. And that was his awakening and his clawing for freedom. And yeah, like I think thinking about that as a as a kind of human singularity is is powerful actually. But in terms of what you're talking about, I mean, yeah, like that we're at this point. Apparently we are. But like we can look at that as a new development, but then if you just look at sort of, you know, the reality of like even prior to virtual girlfriends and boyfriends and sex lives, you know, whatever, it's like, well, how much of the internet traffic was pornography before you know, using like fake simulated people? Like we we're at that point now, but there's been simulated sexuality for a very long time. And that's also been wrecking us, you know. And so this is like the next stage in that. And and they're all disturbing because, you know, it's it's selling you ⁓ a a simulation of something that is much more embodied and relationally tied and emotionally tied and psychologically tied, spiritually tied. And that sort of thing. And so yeah, this this is where we're at. But it is the kind of logical end of what we started since dial-up internet and send in photos that took you know ten minutes to download or whatever, right? It's just the acceleration of that. Whereas humans and now it's like reached a level of sophistication where it's Simulated beings. It's not even the ethics of that, it's like, let's not do that. Murky at best. Murky at best. Let's not do that. But it's like people are lonely. People are craving intimacy. And some would argue, like, well, if they can't, you know, have that connection with the human, this is this is the next best. And some might even argue, well, you know, it's better that it's it's just ⁓ it's a simulated human being as compared to real human beings, but I I don't know. Once you get to that you get to that point, it's I guess you've kind of already lost the game intimacy wise. Right. You've already lost. Yeah. There's this idea that, you know, ⁓ you you mentioned dial up and it's like waiting ten minutes, like, ⁓ in ten minutes something exciting is gonna happen. Now, not only are things more on demand, but things are predictive. It will predict or the algorithm will tell you what you've been wanting or what you've been needing, and it will promise something to you. And I feel There's a correlation to in my mind with technology. Initially, when a when a technology comes onto the scene, it it promises function or it promises ease. It promises to solve a problem or sell you a problem that then this product can coincidentally solve. And then I think we we re at some point with technology, we reach a different point where it promises intimacy. It promises maybe not as overt or gross. As you know, like, hi, I'm AI girlfriend A, and like, I'll never say no. It's like, yeah, that that's that's overtly uncomfortable. But also social media promises you intimacy, it promises you connection, it promises you all those things. And this is maybe the thing that as an ethicist I find so compelling to get your thoughts on because we will it's like when we get to a point of isolation or loneliness, we will get So desperate for the illusion of intimacy that we don't even prioritize real analogue, you know, blood and bones and but like we don't prioritize that anymore because, like Cypher, the blue pill is easier. And also, the the thing about the matrix that speaks to this is you can make it what you want it to be as long as you don't challenge the rules of it. And that's what the internet, pornography, social media, and now To a to an extent, artificial intelligence promises you immediacy, it promises you that intimacy, but it's all the illusion at your whim. And that I find deeply, again, unsettling. ⁓ do you think when Neo goes to destroy the matrix at the end, he's learned how to like kind of navigate the matrix, he's learned to not play by the matrix's rules or reorient the matrix's rules around him. How how can we do that with AI? Like how can we relate with it ethically? Because it's not going away anytime soon, Mike. Like that's that's the other thing is like the the head in the sand approach feels justified to me, but I know it's not realistic. So how how can people listening ethically engage with AI as best as possible as we kind of ⁓ land the plane on our matrix conversation? Great question. Yeah, like it it gets ⁓ in its prom promise of immediacy, immediate delivery, it goes from, you know, maybe casual use to guilty pleasure to like substitution. And I think it was John Mayer who said in regards to pornography, he's like, you know, I slept around, right? He's John Mayer, right? Like, you know, he's he's dated everybody and whatever, whatever. And I think he said he was like, Yeah, porn is just better. You know, and this like he you know If you just look on paper and it I'd have to revisit that comment and it may have been more self conscious of like this is how bad it is, but like on paper you're like this can have whoever he wants. And even he's saying, like, well, it's just easier to to go to my computer or my phone. And so like this is like I sometimes channel my dad energy, you know? And and like the thing that, you know, people just don't talk about is like Actual sexuality involves actual bodies. Yeah. And bodies don't look like the Hollywood bodies we see or the pornography bodies. And it's a vulnerable i i intimate thing. Like it's a real like and and so ⁓ it's like hopefully you do that with a person you trust. Right. And every time they're like, ⁓ don't worry, it's just on Tinder, whatever, whatever, and you know, it's all good. I'm like, I I feel like people are just talking a whole bunch of smack here. Like I feel. Like maybe some people are just like they've got to the point where it's no big deal, but like just there is a ease offered by technology that you just don't don't get with like the actual thing. But I think, you know, extending that to things beyond sexuality, like it's actually the vulnerability and the time and the effort and the learning that's like part of the fun. Yeah. So so just don't rush everything like enjoy the extra work, right? ⁓ don't automate the struggle. Don't don't automate the struggle. And that's like artistic, right? Like there was a season, you know, part of my job is doing like graphic design to promote events we're doing. And there was a there was a time when I was like, you know, we don't have a big marketing department and whatever that I was doing AI generated images. But then I stopped and started actually thinking, well, what would it look like to hand draw stuff? And that was like, and and I'm not good at drawing. I've like, well, tracing, and then and then once I learn the movements, then how do I freehand it based on what my hand has been learned for tracing and doing that? And like so this is getting into like the practical ethical piece is like maybe, you know, in the same way that, you know, really boring assembly line beer resulted in the craft beer reaction, you know, mass produced closing has led to more like localized form art stuff or food, mass production farming has led to, you know, return to like local farming or whatever, maybe we can actually use this as an opportunity to reflect on other seemingly outdated practices that we might rediscover the value of them. Yeah. Andrew Camp and I talked about this on on his podcast. Like there is a way in which that can actually be quite middle class and consumeristic. You know, it's like, well just eat organic and local. And you're like, who's got the money for that? Who's paying for that? Yeah, who's paying for that? But it's just, it's just a way of saying like How can we use this as an opportunity to rediscover things that we thought were outdated? But maybe they are, but the but there's a reason why they've been around for the the time that they have and what might they do to us and for us and for other people? And I think this is where I'll end too, because what's interesting about the Matrix, of course, is that like the solution to the problem is violence. So when Neo finally like, you know, he's like, I've got an idea. We're gonna attack the agents and they're like, what do you need? He's like, guns, lots of guns. And you're like, sweet, learning kung fu through through programming and you know, programmed guns and firebombs and helicopters is the way to do it. And for me I'm like, you know, relationship, you know, people in your neighborhood, your feet on the ground, tactile things, getting real sunlight on your face. Fresh air, all these things might be the way that we are reminded of our basic humanity and our common humanity and might be ⁓ maybe less spectacular than violence and explosions. But I think I'm I'm hopeful about that as the response is it's cool seeing Neo get the bad guys and Trinity get the bad guys like dodge this. Like that's that plays cool. Like Here, neighbor, I baked you some cookies. Like actually, and you know, and actually I'm gonna, yeah, end with the the the prophet, right? She bakes Neo cookies and tells him what he needs to hear. And that helps Neo too. So I'm like, maybe the answer is good cookies. Not cheese. Yeah, I mean, well, yes. I I the baking the cookies is the bullet dodge, you know, cool scene that you know, if you've never seen The Matrix, you've still seen Keanu Reeves like Dodged, you know, the bullets. But baking the baking cookies, making that human connection and allowing ⁓ allowing yourself to maybe sti take a step back from these things and do it in not not harder way, but do it in a less convenient, on demand, instant gratification way to learn and reconnect with how to be human. I think those are all great things, Mike. I I appreciate you sitting down and having this enlightening conversation about the matrix and artificial intelligence. And ⁓ things that really keep me up at night. So maybe not a traditional horror movie, but there are things in this movie that definitely keep me up at night, man. So ⁓ thank you very much. Well, thanks for having me. This is awesome. I I really appreciated our conversation. So thanks for the invitation.