WEBVTT
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Welcome back.
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If we were to do episode one of Curiosity Theory, how would it be different today than it would have been?
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That's a good question.
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I think that that episode, first of all, that's one of our highest viewed episodes.
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Down downloaded.
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Highest downloaded episodes.
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I also think it is one of the our best episodes.
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I also think that the title is our best at best episode.
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Yeah.
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I got you.
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I got you.
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That's a actually ableist what you just did.
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Oh.
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Well, yeah, I was just I was just repeating what I heard.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Now you're gaslighting me.
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That's also ableist because I'm media illiterate.
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Right.
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You're taking advantage of my contextual illiteracy.
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So I actually like well, the name of that first episode before we get too uh far down the rabbit hole, Rabbit Hole.
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Um, not the rabbit hole.
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Uh is Curiosity as a North Star.
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Uh-huh.
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Oh, I'm gonna get that tattooed on my body.
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Okay.
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Curiosity as a North Star.
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All right.
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And it was like, so we had this episode with uh with Hank Green recently that was posted, and he, you know, he started talking about curiosity and like interest.
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He's you know, so we're sort of using curiosity and interest interchangeably, and that you know, interest, a lack of interest is one way that you could describe feeling depressed, having like uh sort of a fog of depression.
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You know, there's there are different things that people can be depressed about, but usually it's like a there's a real apathy that sets in.
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It can be.
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And that sometimes, like in our lives, if uh if otherwise things seem like they should be okay, if you just there's just not a lot of stuff that you're interested in.
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It just, you know, the colors are dimmer, it just doesn't feel as good.
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There's like this haze sitting over you.
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And I really liked that because that is exactly the experience that I think I've had at times in my life, and that is exactly the role that curiosity and interest play.
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And a phrase, a title for that phenomena could be curiosity as a North Star, like a thing that that guides you, and that is what we named the first episode, yeah, which was fire.
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I always think it's you know, when you talk a lot, you forget what you said.
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I feel like you ever seen the videos of Lil' Wayne?
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They'll like read him lyrics that he rapped.
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He'd be like, damn, that's fire.
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Who said that?
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Yeah, and he was like, Oh, that was me.
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And it's kind of like a meme.
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Um, but that was a that was a fire episode.
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I don't know what we would change.
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I wouldn't do it at that same studio.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, but I think I would because we had to get it out the mud, man.
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And uh Well, so if your thing is like, would you change your experiences because they made you who you are, then no.
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Right.
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Then why'd you ask the question if you were gonna do this gotcha journalism on me and be like, oh well, I don't know if it was a gotcha.
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I think it's maybe a difference in opinion.
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Like maybe you like the air-conditioned fancy studio, and I'm just more of like a you know, like a greedy guy.
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Yeah, but I will say that your chair was catching the only AC that existed in that.
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It was.
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That's a fair point.
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Yeah, that's a fair point.
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Um, but no, I think curiosity is a really interesting word that we've dissected from a lot of angles.
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I always have felt this way.
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I feel like you're like this too.
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I think there's a difference between being curious and being nosy.
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I don't think I'm very nosy, but I think I'm very curious.
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Hmm.
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Well, how would you differentiate uh so I think nosy tends to be uh and and this is like a slang term, right?
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So I'm just defining it colloquially, like sticking your nose in people's business.
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Like, oh, I want to know, like, oh, I don't, I don't, like I didn't get the full story about this.
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I want to dive into this person's backstory on my own and like try to figure it out, you know?
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Um not so interested in that personally.
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Is that not just a thing that you're not curious about though?
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Correct.
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I think it's a so you're are you just labeling things that you don't find curious as something I guess I'm curious, but just not about other people's business.
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Because I guess nosy is a form of curiosity, right?
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Like a sub-genre of curiosity.
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You think it's a subgenre and not just a specific thing like somebody like a sign, you know, an astronomer maybe is nosy about that star system over there.
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Like shit.
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I'm trying to figure out these stars.
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Trying to figure out what they got going on over there.
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Sticking his nose in all the stars.
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I don't know if I would use the word nosy there.
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Because nosy implies that you're cu you're trying to get another, you're you're curious about somebody else's business.
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Yeah, nosy implies interpersonal curiosity.
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Um, which I do think I have some curiosity about.
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But if it's like a person is not really comfortable sharing or they just don't feel like well, okay.
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So you're on a, let's say you're on a uh you're on a date or something like that.
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Are you not nosy about this person's background?
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I mean, we're making this a dating show now.
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All right.
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Well, uh, since you asked, uh, I think, no, I think I think if I'm on a date, um I would be interested in the person, but not I feel like nosy implies a degree of boundary pushing as well.
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You think so?
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So, like to be nosy about a person's business as as opposed to being curious about a person's business, although you can conflate the two.
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I would say like I'm curious about your life, but I'm not nosy about your personal business in a way that's like, well, you have this boundary, or perhaps there's an implied boundary about I don't really want to share this yet, we're not at that place.
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And I'm like, uh what you got going on there?
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You know, sticking my nose in it, and I'm trying to figure out what it is before you're ready.
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You know, like why does it have to be before, like before they're ready?
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Yeah, I guess I guess nosiness doesn't necessarily necessitate that.
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Yeah.
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But yeah, I just I don't know, I just don't identify with the word as much.
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Clearly identify with curiosity.
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Like, would you say you're a nosy person?
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I think that you could, yeah.
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I mean, yeah.
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I think that I'm a pretty nosy guy.
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I'm like, I want to understand things, I want to understand lots of things.
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I'm curious, I'm curious about life.
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I don't think that I like gossip a lot.
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If you're talking about, is it specifically like, oh, we're like gossiping about something?
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Is that what nosy means?
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If that's what it means, then yeah, but uh if nosy just means that you're very curious about like social dynamics and like what the dynamics are of like a relationship or something, I mean I think that that's curious.
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I think that that's a application of curiosity.
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I don't know if that's necessarily like the things that I tend to be curious about, but I'm definitely curious about people.
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Yeah, and if I and I'm definitely like if I go to like I feel like if I go somewhere new, I want to like see what's in like if I went, if I like if I went over to your house for the first time, I'm gonna look, I wanna like look around and like see what's in the pantry.
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I'm gonna see like what is like what's behind these doors, what's in this closet?
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Is that nosy?
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Perhaps I guess it depends.
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So I've done that before where I've walked, I've like, you know, I got invited.
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I didn't even like break in to someone's house, and I like look around.
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Yeah, like I want to see what's in closets and cabinets and drawers, and yeah, like I want to see what's in here.
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I'm very I'm interested, like I wanna understand.
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It is curiosity.
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This is usually and usually people do say something like, yo, like bro, what are you doing?
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But you're like, this is just me being a curious guy.
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I'm curious.
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Man, I'm just like curious of like what's in here, like what and what this is a new environment.
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I want to explore the environment.
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Like a cat, like a you gotta sniff out everything that you I'm just curious.
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All right.
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It's my favorite quality about myself is my curiosity.
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I feel equally curious, but just I feel like when I go to someone's house, I'm like, uh, let me watch out for the things that seem private or sacred.
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Because I it's probably not I don't really need I don't really need that in my brain.
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So some would say that you're just not all that serious about your curiosity.
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Yeah, I would say I'm precise with my curiosity.
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Like I I tend to be selective about the things that I allow into my brain, or at least I try to be, you know, we can't control that fully, but yeah, but that's not what I feel like you were just describing right there.
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I think it is.
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I think I'm I'm Well, you're it's not that you were saying that you didn't want to cross all these boundaries.
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I'm deciding not to take a course of action that will create a situation where there are things in my brain that don't necessarily need to be in there.
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For example, a person's personal belongings that may allow me to form new beliefs about them that I don't necessarily need to form.
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You don't just want to know what's behind that door.
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Not necessarily.
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I do.
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I want to know what's behind a lot of doors, but it sounds like you're the type of person in a scary movie that would probably be first to die.
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I don't know.
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I um I don't know.
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I don't think so.
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I mean, that's exactly how the people die.
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Yeah, it's a scary movie.
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This is made up, it's not real.
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Yeah, but I feel like it's based on reality.
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You feel like scary movies are based on reality.
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Well, the idea of group dynamics.
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You feel like the scary movies horror films are based on reality.
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I feel like if we isolate this concept of like, oh, what's behind that door?
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Like, those people don't survive and reproduce.
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Um, I disagree.
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Sometimes they discover a new continent or a new country.
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Disagree.
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And sometimes they die.
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It's like would say, and I would even put, I think that we have a mission statement for our podcast, which is literally that our ancestors evolved to be vigorously and wildly curious.
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Yeah.
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And so I do I just disagree that they would die.
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I mean, ooh, maybe sometimes what happens if I walk up to this tiger, you know?
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Like, you want to know that?
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I I know what happens if you walk up to a tiger.
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How can you be 100% sure?
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How can you be 100% sure of anything?
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Exactly.
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So if that's the case, you know, why why not let your curiosity extend into that direction?
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I'm not curious about what would happen if you walk up to a tiger.
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I'm curious about what's in your fridge.
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Not to judge not I'm just curious.
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It's like you're getting it's like you're getting to know somebody.
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It's like a question that you ask.
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Like I'm not gonna ask a super invasive question, but I may ask a kind of invasive question because I'm curious.
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This guy's a villain.
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This guy's a villain, and I'm fine with also I'm I'm fine with also answering questions that you know on that level.
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Invasive.
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That's good.
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If you can take a dose of your own medicine, that's good.
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Okay, so it's like, you know, at what point do you can you stop doing like a polite, you know, uh surface level conversation, like small talk?
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Because you're not learning anything about anybody during small talk.
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I mean, you can be like good at small talk, and there can be like an exchange there, but if I'm trying to understand you and like understand how you think and like get to know you better, you're gonna have to be invasive.
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You think that's the one route to understanding a person?
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No, it's not the one route to understanding a person, it's a way to get to understand what's in there.
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And you're saying inv you know, invasive sounds bad.
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I think invasive has a connotation.
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But um like invasive species, for example.
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Invasive species.
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Yeah, we want to get rid of those.
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Yeah, true.
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So maybe invasive is not the right word.
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Maybe the word is because we easily could just frame it differently.
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I could say it's just very exploratory.
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Yeah.
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Which is like walking somewhere new and looking around.
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Yeah, like in some like a new fridge that you found.
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Yeah, well, you know, it's uh I guess it's a framing thing.
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To some animals in the environment, uh explorers showing up are an invasive species.
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However, to some other environment uh animals, maybe not.
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If you are finding yourself inside of my mind and I want you there, that's not invasive.
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Yeah.
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If you're if I'm enjoying it, if you're enjoying my penetration of your mind, that's not invasive.
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Yeah, you may not want me to leave.
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Where's consent?
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I may want to get out of here and you may not want me to leave.
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Where's consent involved in this interaction?
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Is it this is a conversation that you're enjoying?
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Oh, I'm enjoying this conversation.
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I can tell that you like when I'm in here.
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Yeah.
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Like this.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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And if you like it and I like it, right?
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Then we're both, you know.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Um, so no consent necessary.
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Is that what you're saying?
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For a conversation where you're exploring an area?
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Well, if it's yeah, like it could potentially be invasive.
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What does that mean?
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It's a conversation.
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You can stop it at any point.
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You can get up and leave right now, but you won't because you like it.
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I mean, that could be separate from consent in some context.
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Well, I mean, you sat down here.
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Uh we we we've uh recorded countless, countless hours of this.
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You push record on all the things, you're still sitting here and talking to me.
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This seems like Seems like I'm I I like it.
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It seems it seems like something that we're both consenting on.
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Is it not?
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Yeah, no, yeah, yeah.
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We are both consenting at this point to doing this.
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Yeah, I would say so.
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All right then.
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So what's your bit what's your problem?
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But I think it's consenting to the degree of invasiveness that could be up for debate in any given situation.
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Yeah, I don't know.
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I feel like I'm courageous.
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I hear what what I hear from you is that you that you like operate with a lot of fear.
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I don't.
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I'm not scared to like I'm not scared to trek.
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I do think that is a flavor of audacity.
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I do think that I am similarly audacious, but just in a different direction.
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Oh, how so?
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I would say my audacity is going after things that like are above my whatever I'm supposed to be entitled to.
00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:17.679
And what are you s saying that I'm being audacious about?
00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:20.720
Um, people's personal business.
00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:24.879
How?
00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:28.399
Because I said that I want to know what's in your fridge.
00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.519
Well, you're courageously, you know, it's audacious.
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:32.159
It's like, look, man.
00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:32.639
I want to know.
00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:33.519
Like I'm in the fridge.
00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:34.159
I'm here.
00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:35.519
I'm like curious.
00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:37.200
What are you gonna do about it?
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:38.480
That's not like that.
00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:40.240
I wouldn't say that it's like that.
00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:43.360
Um, I do think that I'm curious about people.
00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:49.840
I don't think I think that I'm like to explore new things, new ideas, new topics, new sciences.
00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:52.000
I actually don't think there's anything wrong with that.
00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:58.960
I think, you know, um, yeah, but I do think it is important to challenge our ideas and sharpen them in this way.
00:14:59.200 --> 00:14:59.759
Yeah, I agree.
00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:01.679
And that's I think something we do with everything.
00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:02.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:25.759
Very important to be um like courageous with because I feel like you have to be if if courage is facing a fear, then I think that to be open-minded and to be a critical thinker, by definition, you have to be courageous because you have to be ready to let go of ideas which may be bolstering your ego or your um identity.
00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:27.360
That takes courage.
00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:33.120
The scary thing to do is to hold on tight to it and try to fight off anybody around, right?
00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:41.679
It's like courageous to open yourself up to that like vulnerability or like the uncertainty of you know, yeah.
00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:53.840
I would say that that's courageous, but I also think that there's like a potential area where certain things are sacred that they maybe want to remain untainted by other perspectives.
00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:54.399
Sure.
00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:55.120
You know?
00:15:55.519 --> 00:16:02.080
So I think like it can be an act of courage to protect that which is sacred in that regard as well.
00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:10.480
Um, yeah, I guess it all depends on framing, but if it's an idea, what's the problem with critiquing it?
00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:12.080
I don't think that's courageous at all.
00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:14.000
You can critique an idea.
00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:16.399
I mean, I yeah, I actually disagree.
00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:22.879
You disagree that um that that there that it's not it can't be an act of courage.
00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:29.600
I don't think that there's anything courageous about being afraid to critique an idea that you have.
00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:31.360
I think that that's the opposite of courage.
00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:36.000
I don't think that I don't think that I would frame that as courageous.
00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:50.000
Perhaps maybe being afraid to critique is not the direction that I would take it in, but more so um willing to uphold this idea in the face of criticism.
00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:54.559
And I think like, you know, there are some examples of that that probably are like non-scientific.
00:16:54.799 --> 00:17:00.559
Um, but like a principle, like um, I think everybody should be treated equally, for example, right?
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:10.079
Like in the face of uh, you know, like slavery or uh civil rights movements, that seems like a controversial thing that kind of doesn't seem right at the time.
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:15.200
Like the general consensus doesn't really agree with you, but it's like, no, I want to protect this idea.
00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.319
Yeah, but that's not because you're afraid to critique it.
00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:24.000
We could sit here right now and you would be totally fine to be like, well, I haven't revisited that in a while.
00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:24.799
Let's critique it.
00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:27.039
Do I really think everybody should be treated equally?
00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:28.880
Do I really think that everybody deserves right?
00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:31.680
That like, do I really think women should be able to have bank accounts?
00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:35.440
Do I really think that black people should be able to not, you know, be slaves or whatever?
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:39.839
I feel like you you could like critique all those and you'd probably just land in the same place.
00:17:40.079 --> 00:18:00.160
But it's it's not because you're like unwilling to critique that idea that you, you know, were unwilling to critique, I would say you know, is is a little bit different than like upholding something that you think absolutely stands up to right, upholding a sacred value in the face of criticism.
00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:11.039
And in that vein, I would agree with you if you feel if you can like sufficiently critique something, and then especially if it's something that other people disagree with, right?
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:14.559
Like we could do just we could do like a science example about this.
00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:20.559
Um, Galileo finding that the sun is at the center of the solar system.
00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:23.920
That's something that you know he was like critiquing a whole bunch of ideas.
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:26.559
He probably critiqued his own that idea himself a lot.
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:29.680
And he was like, No, it looks like Jupiter has moons that orbit it.
00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:38.720
Yeah, I can tell that Venus is orbiting the sun in the same way that the moon is orbiting the earth, and then it takes courage to like stand on those stand on the business.
00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:51.119
Yeah, um, but I would say that that, you know, it's only courageous after having gone through a critical, you know, that belief going through a critical process.
00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:59.839
And then in that, you sort of like demonstrated that you're not scary holding on to ideas that you're afraid are wrong.
00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:00.240
Yeah.
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:03.279
You're actually, it's the opposite, it's like building strength.
00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:03.759
Right.
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:13.119
You're kind of then presenting the idea and opening the forum of public mass criticism, uh, as opposed to protecting it from criticism.
00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:13.599
Yeah.
00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:16.079
But you're still like, no, I think this is right.
00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:20.640
Like, I hear all of these points and even give me more points that I didn't consider.
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:22.559
I still think this is probably right.
00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:22.960
Yeah.
00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:43.599
And there are a lot of times in science, early science, I think that um in environments where you know perhaps church and state weren't so separate that scientists had to be audacious in their and and even were murdered as a result of you know these like scientific principles that they had tested, that they, you know, stood for.
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:44.240
Yeah.
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:44.720
Totally.
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:52.480
Of somebody that was like persecuted for uh was Galileo persecuted?
00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.519
Yeah, I think you could, I mean, he was kind of a dickhead.
00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:02.000
Uh and so he would regularly like ruffle the feathers of the people in power.
00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:26.079
Um, but yeah, you know, the saying that the sun was at the center of things attacked what the church, the Catholic Church at the time held sacred, which was that the earth was at the center of everything, which feet which you know arises, I think, naturally from this perspective that God created the entire universe centered around us.
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:37.039
And so it like challenges that, which you can I can sort of like see from a a narrative perspective that that's actually kind of a big problem.
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:37.440
Yeah.
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:45.440
If everything is centered around, no, like the whole of existence is about us accepting that Jesus died for our sins, this is all that matters.
00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:48.640
God created humans, this is this is what it's all about.
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:52.880
Um, and then you're like, well, this is actually not the center center of anything.
00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:54.400
This is there is no center of anything.
00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:56.400
Like, who first of all, who the hell is this guy?
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.240
And let's get rid of him because like he's messing up the he's messing up the show.
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:01.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:01.839
Yeah.
00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:13.200
Um now, you know, it's not I don't think that the sun being at the center of our solar system is an argument against Christianity or religion or any religion.
00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:13.680
Right.
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:18.079
But um, that was like a part of the conventional thinking at the time.
00:21:18.400 --> 00:22:01.279
You know, this is like the work of I've heard people make the argument that um fossils that show that evolution happened were placed there by the devil to trick people or even by God to test people's faith, which is a crazy argument to me because you know I guess anytime that your your argument for like an omniscient, all knowing, all loving creator that cares about me and you, and cares about all of us and our well being, anytime that you have to make him a Bigger and bigger dick.
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:04.559
I just can't get on board with that.
00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:10.240
He created, he knows that it's hard to know anything as a person.
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:12.160
We have all these emotions and feelings.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:13.680
We all believe crazy shit.
00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:15.519
I used to believe that the tooth fairy was real.
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:19.119
You know, when I was like three or four or whatever, you believe anything.
00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:20.480
People believe anything.
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:35.519
And so you're gonna put hard physical evidence that we evolved from uh you know more ape-like creatures, or that you know, I guess technically that us and all the other great apes share an ancestor.
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:39.039
Why would you do that if that was not true?
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:43.279
And in fact, in that case, how can I ever know anything?
00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:50.720
All I can do is trust whatever's in this book and just assume that's true and everything else is false or lie.
00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.519
Now, whoever was in control of that book, I think benefits greatly from that.
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:56.160
Yeah.
00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:11.920
And but I whoever, yeah, but like, and I and I think that that's that's sort of like why somebody who comes along and says, Well, you know, it says that you know that the the earth was created, everything was created around it, that isn't true.
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:20.880
If one thing in this book isn't true, and this is supposed to be a sacred thing and everything's right, calls everything into question, sort of like collapse the the house of cards.
00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:21.680
Yeah.
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:22.559
Yeah.
00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:23.359
Yeah.
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:32.240
And and uh I think the process of science advancing over time, like that's occurred several times throughout the course of science.
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:38.319
Like new discoveries collapse entire fields of study and have to have them like rethought.
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:38.640
Yeah.
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:40.400
Uh and that's something You think so?
00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:43.599
Like, what is uh do you have like a something that comes to mind?
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:58.640
What I'm thinking about is I mean, even if you think of that just discovery of heliocentrism, like this idea that we revolve around the sun, like so many like a field like astrology that predates astronomy, right?
00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:14.079
And uh and actually is kind of the foundation that astronomy was built on, yeah, was I wouldn't argue like a hard science field, but it kind of had to collapse in the face of this scientific evidence, at least if one is to make empirical claims about the universe.
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:14.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:24.559
I guess we could sort of consider um a body of knowledge, like cultures, societies, humans have always had bodies of knowledge.
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:36.880
Now, that body of knowledge could include things that we know now are scientifically true, could also include things that are not possibly true, could include uh like other philosophical things, but they are like bodies of knowledge.
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:37.279
Yeah.
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:43.119
Here's another example that I that just comes to mind the discovery of microbial life.
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:54.960
Like I feel like so for so long we thought that sickness was caused by, you know, like demons or uh, you know, like ill will or like the bad vibes that you got from other people.
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:58.880
There's probably some people that still kind of believe that that's why you get sick.
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:12.559
But yeah, there are the you know, we discovered microbes, and then we discovered things like soap where you could like physically rinse off the microbes, and they dramatically reduced like the amount of deaths in like medical environments, right?
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:24.880
And so like entire fields had to shift after we've realized that there's living little tiny things uh you know that that that affect all of us, and we actually are a build up, like we actually are just a bunch of those.
00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:39.599
Yeah, you know, like yeah, that's uh and then it gets super complicated and and complex because then as we we realize that yeah, it's not the evil eye that made you sick, and it's not even like bad air.
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:46.400
They kind of thought that that was another early idea, and they're on the right track though that there's like ah, there's something wrong with that air.
00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:53.839
And it's like, well, there can be airborne pathogens, but it's not necessarily that the bad is air, the air is bad, right?
00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:01.119
Because I guess if you breathe in something, it is because you breathed in bad air, what we're gonna call bad air.
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:14.559
Uh but and then you you start to realize that wait a second, but like your interactions with other people, you know, what we could colloquially refer to as the bad energy actually can impact you, you know.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:19.119
If you're in like a bad relationship or you have a bad family dynamic, it can be very stressful.
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:30.720
That that added stress is like the more we learn about science, it's like, oh, well, that you know, being in a stressed-out state can actually um dampen your immune response.
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:34.160
And maybe it does become easier for you to get sick.
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:37.039
Again, you know, that may be it's from a virus, right?
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:39.839
It's not necessarily or a bacteria.
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:45.599
Um, but it could also just be like that being stressed out is weighing you down.
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:47.440
You don't have to get sick, but you do feel worse.
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:50.240
And that also is like an energy thing.
00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:59.680
And, you know, whenever the science comes out and says something like that, this is that's just an example, but we could be more rigorous and come up with um like concrete examples.
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:07.680
I think a thing that you'll always hear people say is like, oh, science is finally catching up to what the mystics have known for thousands of years.
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:12.160
Yeah, and it's like that tweet, you can pretty much tweet that and it'll go viral.
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:18.960
It feels like that's like a copy paste that I see a lot every few months, and it's like a bunch of people just like you don't even have to give it context.
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:21.680
Yeah, people is like, yeah, it's obvious, that's obviously true.
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:29.599
And I think that it's interesting because like there is a there's a that's has a certain percentage of accuracy.
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:30.799
I don't know what it is.
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:45.039
That is like 15% true that science, like over time, may oftentimes confirm something that that was like known, but it's but it was not really known for the right.
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:48.079
It's almost like sometimes you can be right, but for the wrong reason.
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:50.559
Yeah, it wasn't known empirically, you might say.
00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:54.640
Like that you don't know the underpinning reasons behind why you were correct.
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:56.319
You can't show your work.
00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:58.240
Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:00.000
But you know, I think that that's interesting.
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:04.559
Like the sort of things like that are are or like the placebo effect, right?
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:14.480
Which is like that um the like you your attitude, weirdly, your attitude can impact your your health.
00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:22.799
Yeah, and your experience of a drug or a stimulus, or yeah, yeah, but that's something that the mystics have known for thousands of years, right?
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:27.200
If you have a good attitude and you approach things with the right attitude, you can have a positive outcome.
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:36.559
Yeah, and that's uh but I mean that's like a weird thing that is it's true, is that your outlook, your perspective, right?
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:56.000
Yeah, and I think that that's uh that's like one of the cool things I think um, you know, not to you don't necessarily wanna I I I think that I naturally am resistant to any sort of this is what like old the like old knowledge being like sacred because it's old.
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:59.839
Like there can obviously be true like truth in that.
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:00.400
I don't know.
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:16.720
We you think about maybe um some uh tribe a long time ago maybe knew that they would like do something with a plant and they would um like mash up a couple different plants and I don't know, do a ceremony and that this stuff was supposed to help you feel better.
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:23.200
And then we realize now that like a lot of the medicine that we get comes from plants because they have medicinal properties.
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:31.119
And so it's like for that tribe, and I mean, you know, this is I wish I had a concrete example, but I think that we could find one if if we looked it up.
00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:43.119
And you're like, well, it wasn't necessarily that they conjured the a particular god or spirit, but it was that there was actually something going on going on that was that was helpful.
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:59.359
Uh but it, you know, if part of that spiritual cleansing uh involved or in that ceremony involved the whole community like praying and feeling like you were gonna get better and you believing that you were because of that, then you've got like multiple things happening.
00:29:59.440 --> 00:29:59.599
Right.
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:13.839
That there's like this application of medicine, that you know, whatever the property is in the plant, but there's also this like communal uplifting of your attitude and your spirits, and you think you're gonna get better, and everybody else does, and that like rubs off on you.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:18.880
And so, you know, they were they were they got there was a lot of things right in that.
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:25.519
And so, like that body of knowledge had lots of what we could confirm to be scientifically accurate.
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:26.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:33.599
We also have talked about um, or we actually, yeah, we talked before with an interview uh with Sue.
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:36.079
Uh she taught she does stem cell research, right?
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:37.359
Cardiomyocytes.
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:49.359
And we talked about uh, and she really like I remember her face lighting up when I said this about how we're starting to re-approach this idea of aging as this microengineering, series of microengineering challenges, right?
00:30:49.680 --> 00:31:03.599
Um, and you know, it it it fascinates me the prospect of the next generation of biological sciences where we can lift up the hood and see the underpinnings of how some of these things work, like the placebo effect.
00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:04.720
Like I'm really curious.
00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:09.839
I think the next generation of neuroscience might be able to shed more light on some of those things.
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:27.119
But also, uh, we were just talking about this clip from Ildegrass Tyson about um how basically, like, and again, I I don't know how he's able to support this research, but he said that I think cavemen, you know, like half of people died before the age of 30 in the time of the cavemen.
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:30.319
And then in the 1980s, that age became 35.
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:45.599
And then just recently, like we've had people as a result of medical advancements and our understanding of aging and some of these other things, we've had the life expectancy of an average human double just in the past about 150 years, but throughout the thousands of years uh before wait.
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:47.200
I thought you said, hold up.
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:49.039
Uh could you say that again?
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:49.680
What did you say?
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:51.279
I thought you said 1980s.
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:52.000
It was 35.
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:52.960
That can't be right.
00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:54.400
It was like in the 1800s.
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:54.880
I didn't say night.
00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:55.680
Did I say 1980?
00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:56.400
I said 1800.
00:31:56.480 --> 00:31:57.279
I meant 1800s.
00:31:57.440 --> 00:31:57.680
Okay.
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:06.480
All right, so all right, so it was the like roughly cavemen, whatever, thousands of years ago, the average age was 30.
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:10.240
But it's like like half peop half of the population lived to the age of 30.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:16.400
Which like drags down the average age of a human because it's like a lot of people are dying as babies or as kids.
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:21.920
And then in the 1850s or so, I think he said in the clip, half of people live to the age of 35.
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.359
And now, I mean, I don't know what the modern stat is.
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:27.039
We can we can look that up too.
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:29.519
Um, but a significantly higher percentage of people.
00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:30.079
Yeah.
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:36.160
Whatever the numbers are, it's obvious that right now people on average live longer than they did hundreds of years ago.
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:37.599
Yeah, ever in the past.
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:43.200
And so uh it feels like more and more of these discoveries are going to be uncovered over time.
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:43.519
Yeah.
00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:45.839
And things are gonna seem less vibey.
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:47.920
I mean, you know, but think so?
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:52.559
Perhaps, but but but then I feel like it's usually a moving goalpost with the with the vibes.
00:32:52.720 --> 00:33:03.119
You know, well, the because like washing your hands becomes something that probably could have saved hundreds of millions of people that have ever lived.
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:13.759
Um, and so or like, you know, learning uh like OBGYNs, people that are that are like versed in the health of mothers and and babies.
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:23.200
This sort of like wipes out all these deaths that used to happen from childbirth, which is uh, you know, how every life how every human life starts.
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:36.000
And so you uh you can like, yeah, we start to extend life, but then there are like all these things that we also do that are um like worse for our health or something.
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:42.240
So we sort of have like these much longer lives, but sometimes the lives are not as high quality, and maybe that's not even true at all.
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:45.759
Maybe it's not that the light like we eat worse food now.
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:48.960
We eat more processed food, but we still stay alive for a long time.
00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:50.319
On average, yeah.
00:33:50.480 --> 00:34:04.319
And I would think that again, based on a lot of the frontier aging research that's occurring right now, people are trying to extend both the quantity and quality of our lives in the in the longer term future.
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:04.799
Yeah.
00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:29.920
I wonder what that limit is of um like I hear people throw around there that I would think that there is a number of years where you you really can't like get farther than it without um like fundamentally changing your DNA and changing every CNN, like every cell in your body.
00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:30.320
Okay.
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:37.119
I mean right, like people live older now, but it's not because but you're you're just like extending the biology, right?
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:43.119
But I mean I think there's a lot of things that impose changes on our DNA, like getting a viral infection, you know?
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:46.880
Like I don't know if a change to our DNA is that like big of a deal.
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:53.440
Uh no, I well I would say that it absolutely is for if you're talking about genetic engineering.
00:34:53.519 --> 00:35:01.039
I think Yeah, I mean I I do think that that's probably the next generation of anti-aging like treatments.
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:08.480
Uh they're gonna be because you know, a lot of times what what aging actually is is this buildup of senescent cells in the body.
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:14.960
Like these, um we learned this in biology class and like college about this this notion of apoptosis.
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:17.199
It's like programmed cell death.
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:23.039
And it's basically when a cell kind of becomes dysfunctional and old, it is like destroyed by the body.
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:27.280
The rest of the body identifies it as not productive and kills it.
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:45.039
And as you get older, the body's immune system becomes and and other parts of the body become less proficient at recognizing aging cells and therefore um because yeah, therefore are unable to like reduce the overall amount of senescent cells in the body.
00:35:45.199 --> 00:36:03.199
And so there was some research that came out, I think in like 2016, about um senescent cells in mice, and that they were genetically programmed to remove uh senescent cells well into their later stages of their lives, and they lived up to like one-third to two-thirds longer.
00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:05.679
Uh, I believe there's like a paper that that cited that.
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:12.559
And that's that's yet to be translated into you know, like profound and productive research for human outcomes, to my knowledge.
00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:18.639
But like that's kind of the um, yeah, but uh yeah, it it it would require genetic alteration.
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:20.639
Yeah, yeah, that's super interesting.
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:29.760
So it's like I guess in my head, I think of extending human lives in a couple different tiers.
00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:38.000
Um, I guess one of the tiers is like the first tier is like removing whatever things kill people early on.
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:41.280
So lifestyle lifestyle changes.
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:57.119
Uh well, I mean, yeah, the difference in your tribe's lifestyle is trying not to get eaten by wolves, and your lifestyle is that you know, you're not gonna get eaten by a wolf as a baby, or you're not gonna die when you're born because your mother loses too much blood.
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:05.440
So it's like removing the things that are like um like I guess what we would see as now is completely preventable deaths.
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:10.719
So you kind of do that by or like starving at a young age.
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:15.679
So, in like, I guess in the US, you kind of do that by having a society.
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:26.559
Uh, you kind of like remove some of these things, and then modern medicine comes along and you like now you can like remove a lot of the pathogen, like you know, people still die from disease, but we got those numbers way down.
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:32.400
And then you introduce something like vaccines and you're like you're able to like eradicate some of those things that wiped out a lot of people.
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:52.639
And then if you are, you know, having like a relatively healthy and there's a lot you know research about this all the time of that you need to be physically active, you need to try and keep your legs strong and have good cardiovascular health, try to stay away from processed foods, then you can kind of like extend to what to your biological limits, right?
00:37:52.800 --> 00:38:03.119
There's like nothing coming in and like uh cutting your your legs out figuratively and literally is like you know, like a tiger cutting your legs out.
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:04.159
Yeah, also that.
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:04.480
Yeah.
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:17.360
And so now you have like a l a number where most people without being sick or having something that was preventable happen will live to be whatever that age is.
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:22.559
I think the average age in the US is maybe like high 70s.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:24.320
I know it's older for women than men.
00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:25.679
Yeah, but I think it's high 70s.
00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:27.920
The average is like high 70s, maybe low 80s.
00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:33.360
So I don't think that we're even there yet, because I think that we do a lot of unhealthy things still.
00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:44.159
And if we could like remove all those things and cut out carcinogen and stuff to the extent that we could, like maybe that I don't know, maybe that number's a hundred or a hundred and ten or something.
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:48.079
So here's another one that the mystics may have figured out before the scientists.
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:55.840
Uh like we we referred a little bit to the that uh blue zones documentary about like the places on earth that have a high percentage of the population that's lived over a hundred.
00:38:56.320 --> 00:38:57.119
Highly debunked.
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:00.079
Uh, every time we talk about this, we get comments that that's been debunked.
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:04.239
So the the the what what is the nature by which it's been debunked?
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:05.199
I think so.
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:13.280
I'd have to refresh my memory, but I think one of them is that there's no documentation for any of those people being the age that they say that they are.
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:13.920
Okay.
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:19.760
They're in like, you know, they're not they're not like checking their birth certificates.
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:20.079
Right.
00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:26.159
Well, okay, perhaps let's not talk about it in in such a scientific way then, and more in like a philosophical way.
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:38.159
So I think this is uh something that's kind of intangible and non-scientific that seems like it would, you know, it stands to reason that it would have a positive effect on lifespans, right?
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:40.880
This idea of having a community, right?
00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:45.119
Something that we don't have a lot in America because of our hyper-individualism.
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:47.280
Uh, like especially as we get older.
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:50.719
Um, you know, there are other cultures that rely on their elders.
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:54.880
One, so to give the elders a sense of community, but two, to give them a sense of purpose, right?
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:57.599
It feels like a lot of people, as they get older, they retire, right?
00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:01.199
That's like one of the things that happens like right before a lot of people die.
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:07.440
It's like they die first from lack of purpose, you know, like on a on a metaphorical level.
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:08.079
Yeah, you know.
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:13.199
They also set the retirement age at like a decade before most people die.
00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:14.079
Right.
00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:21.599
So, I mean, but but this idea of retirement itself for a lot of people is like I work so hard, I just don't want to work anymore.
00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:21.920
Yeah.
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:22.320
Right.
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:30.159
As opposed to uh I, you know, worked so hard to make money, now let me do something that I feel like is purposeful.
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:31.199
You know?
00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:38.880
Um, and I think a person that is both devoid of community and purpose doesn't have a lot of reasons to live.
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:49.360
In the same way that this, you know, what we described as this placebo effect of just believing that you can overcome, believing that you can get better, it's like, well, I have this like reason to live.
00:40:49.599 --> 00:41:01.199
Um, I imagine that it stands to reason that that can be an intangible thing that could support extension extension of a lifespan when you look at like a large sample size.
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:02.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:05.519
Yeah, I mean, yeah, philosophically, totally, I totally agree with that.
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:17.679
That seems like something that that makes sense and would also be um like useful and would, I guess, you know, in my tier system, would go towards pushing the biological limit.
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:32.239
Like if you're if we're hitting all of our P's and Q's on all the ways and we're being healthy and you're doing everything right and you've got the right community and the right perspective, I would say that there's still some biological limit that's like a DNA-based thing.
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:32.639
Sure.
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:33.039
Right.
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:38.639
And it's like, you know, it's interesting how different animals um do immunity.
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:49.920
So, like rats, oftentimes they don't have their immune uh system is not one that is like really good at fighting off a bunch of diseases.
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:56.480
They kind of get sick and they just um sort of evolve ways to deal with being sick.
00:41:56.639 --> 00:41:58.800
I mean, they're gonna like die soon anyways, right?
00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:02.320
Like small, you're a small rodent, they don't live that long.
00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:04.480
They probably get eaten a lot, anyways.
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:09.199
Um, you know, and so you sort of see in their lifestyle this is reflected.
00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:13.280
They have lots of babies, they can have them relatively close, right?
00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:18.960
You could have some and then you could have some again a few months later, you could have some again, and they don't live that long.
00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:24.960
And so you don't need like a great immune system that's really um focused on keeping each one alive.
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:32.000
Maybe you get sick and you get a disease, and it's just like, well, let's just make this not feel that bad to, you know, it's not gonna stop me from reproducing.
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:32.639
Right?
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:49.599
Uh and you but then you compare that to um I don't know, something like an elephant, where an elephant actually needs to like each each elephant life is you know exponentially more important than each rat's life.
00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:53.360
Uh it takes they're pregnant for like multiple years, right?
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:55.679
So this is like a this huge investment.
00:42:55.840 --> 00:43:03.199
And so an animal like that, um, or like you know, also whales come to mind, which can leave to be like what hundreds of years old or something like that.
00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:11.840
It's like it's actually very critical for them to be able to fight off all so there's like a different type of immunity that that they sort of evolve.
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:23.840
Um and they would would or would not develop the abil like a rat, you wouldn't imagine that a rat um could have a heart that would be able to survive for 200 years.
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:25.039
It just wouldn't make any sense.
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:25.280
Yeah.
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:35.679
If you kept a rat completely healthy um and made everything perfect in its body so that it never aged but didn't do anything to its heart, it would eventually die because its heart went bad.
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:36.000
Right.
00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:36.480
Right.
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:48.559
And then uh, you know, you sort of think that think of any given animal having a body that something will start to fail at some point in time.
00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:51.440
And if that thing didn't start to fail, something else would.
00:43:51.599 --> 00:43:51.840
Yeah.
00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:52.320
Right?
00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:59.679
Like if it's you know, humans, like if my heart stays healthy, eventually like my kidneys won't start will stop working as well, or like some.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:01.760
You know, my brain will start to deteriorate.
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:11.199
Yeah, we we were not historically under any selective evolutionary pressure to survive in well into like into our hundreds.
00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:18.239
So nothing incentivizing that, nor do the people that successfully reproduce actually have a prerequisite that they survive that long.
00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:19.199
Exactly.
00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:21.039
So yeah, exactly.
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:24.960
So, you know, eventually our bodies give out.
00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:26.960
I just had a crazy idea though.
00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:30.800
Like I'm like, what if imagine this is kind of sci-fi.
00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:41.920
So imagine an alien civilization that like had super long lifespans that was trying to like turn like genetically engineer humans, but just through breeding, not through uh modifying our genome.
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:47.119
And they just took the ones that could breed the oldest and kept breeding them for thousands of years.
00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:47.440
Yeah.
00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:48.960
Like how far could we extend?
00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:50.239
Well, you know what you would do?
00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:59.920
What you would do is you would um retain uh specimens from it, doesn't actually matter how old they can breed.
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:06.639
If you just get their reproductive material when they're young, like keep it in a spur bank and know are gonna live long.
00:45:06.719 --> 00:45:07.280
Is that what you're saying?
00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:08.000
Doesn't matter.
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:16.079
Then you see who lives the longest, and you only fertilize the you only use the eggs of the longest women that live the longest.
00:45:16.239 --> 00:45:16.559
Yeah.
00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:21.519
And so it actually doesn't matter who can continue to like breed the longest.
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:23.039
Yeah, don't try to sit at home, by the way.
00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:27.360
It only matters who so this would be like a long, a long sort of thing.
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:31.840
And then you would take the so that I mean, you know, this would take you said these are long-lived aliens.
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:33.679
Yeah, it'd take tens of thousands of years to do that.
00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:44.239
This would be yeah, but what you you know, maybe you and you could like push it so that um humans could live longer and longer, but it would take an extremely long time to do like a selective thing.
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:55.679
I guess the quick way to do it would just see well, what are the specific gene variants that the oldest people had, and then you could like select for those and kind of like do it faster.
00:45:55.840 --> 00:45:56.159
Yeah.
00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:58.960
And yeah, that's uh that's pretty interesting.
00:45:59.119 --> 00:46:22.000
But like either way, it's it seems like there is some limit that each animal has for like where it's by it doesn't, it just doesn't make sense for your body to have uh keep to keep your liver in great shape if your lungs are going bad, you know, or if your if your brain's deteriorating, like it doesn't make sense to keep your brain tip top if your heart's giving out.
00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:31.039
Uh and so there's like whatever that number is, who know I don't know what that number is for people, but a hundred, hundred and ten, uh maybe it's like 120 or something.
00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:36.239
Maybe we're like leaving some money on the table because we're not as healthy as as we should be.
00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:52.480
Uh but and at that point, I just think the only thing that you can do to extend that is to get into the DNA and like on the cellular level change, you know, uh yeah, like your D yeah, your DNA.
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:53.599
That I agree with.
00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:56.719
That I think is is already about to start happening.
00:46:57.039 --> 00:46:57.599
I think so.
00:46:57.760 --> 00:47:00.960
I think there's gonna be a I think I think it's gonna start.
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:09.119
Um, I mean, yeah, we've talked before about CRISPR and kind of the applications of it and that kind of being a relatively low-cost approach.
00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:16.800
Um, but you know, like we were talking with uh first principal guys about this, and this might have came out already or not.
00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:27.840
But um we were talking to them about this ad that one of them saw on the subway for this organization that provides um basically their tagline was have your best baby.
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:51.199
And so they select certain eggs and and sperm cells from both mates that you know have these desirable, like they understand what uh genes link to specific genotypic or phenotypic traits, and they're able to basically say, okay, well, you can select for these things, and then you can select for these things of the range of possible you know genetic combinations that your sperm and egg cells can have.
00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:54.719
I think that's like the first low-hanging fruit step of it.
00:47:54.880 --> 00:48:00.000
But I think it's gonna evolve into more granular genetic engineering like CRISPR as well.
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:01.280
Yeah, yeah.
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:04.480
It's uh always good to see eugenics making a return.
00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:06.320
Oh, Jesus.
00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:13.280
Uh that's yeah, I mean, that's a crazy, that's like a crazy emerging phenomenon.
00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:22.559
Emerging phenomenon, but you know, um, you know, I I think about it this way, and you know, I don't want this to come off as me, you know, like saying that I'm necessarily for this at all.
00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:27.920
But I just think of this as again, if we take a philosophical step back and think about human nature, right?
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:32.480
As a parent, you want to provide the best possible life for your child, right?
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:34.000
Like that's kind of a fundamental thing.
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:34.159
Yeah.
00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:36.719
Get your kid in the best school you can get them in, yeah.
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:38.159
Give them the best food you can give them.
00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:48.239
If I know that there's uh people out here whose kids are superhuman that have like all the best, whatever all the best genes are for whatever the thing is that you think that whatever it is, it doesn't matter.
00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:50.320
If I can afford it, it makes no sense for me.
00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:57.360
It makes no sense for you to roll out you know, your backup unit to go play against the uh you know the superhuman.
00:48:57.440 --> 00:48:59.119
It's like this doesn't make sense.
00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:01.199
You're putting your kid at a disadvantage.
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:06.800
Now, one of the first things to overcome is how socially taboo this all sounds, right?
00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:18.639
Because, well, that just sounds like you're playing God or you're toying with genetics, and you know, there's still this whole uh, you know, um series of preconceived notions that the culture has about GMOs already.
00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:21.199
So, like a genetically modified human, that doesn't sound good.
00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:24.159
If GMOs are bad, genetically modified humans are terrible, right?
00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:41.760
But if you start to realize that there is this subsect of rich people that are all doing this and putting their kids at these huge disadvantages and now are gonna be generationally poised to be ahead, it stands to reason that the next generation of parents are gonna be like, nah, if I can afford to, I'm gonna give my kid this opportunity.
00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:45.840
Just like I would give my kid the best school I can and the best food that they can eat, you know?
00:49:46.079 --> 00:50:30.000
Yeah, you're this is now the literal creation of like this is like a divergence, it like an evolutionary divergence between I guess what humans are now, in the future, maybe what they were, and like this different sect of humans that you know are genetically, I want to say superior, uh, but not as a moral, not as like a moral judgment from me, but like literally if you wiped out all of the things that like congenital like diseases and defects, if you're literally making you know, p them have stronger tendons and stronger, then that feels like genetic superiority.
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:34.000
I think that's when we step into eugenics territory when we label it as superior.
00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:36.480
I think it's oh well just say they're just genetically different.
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:40.880
Genetically selected, I would say, is probably don't see how that's not genetics.
00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:47.360
I mean, you could call it whatever you want, you could call it Yeah, but I mean like because superior implies that they're objectively superior.
00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:51.280
And perhaps, you know, in some cases, having a stronger tendon is like isn't it?
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:52.639
How is that not superior?
00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:53.039
Right.
00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:54.400
I think that's a fair point.
00:50:54.639 --> 00:51:06.639
But I think again, there's other traits that we might describe, such as pigmentation of your skin, that some people who practice eugenics in the past would be like that's certain pigmentation is genetically superior, you know.
00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:16.559
Well, I think that that's the difference, is that like superiority, like based on on race, I think that almost always did come down to a moral judgment.
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:34.239
If you literally have cells that don't age and you're gonna live to be 500, and you are as strong as the strongest human that's ever lived, and you've got all of you know whatever genetics go to make you be able to have a super plastic brain that can process stuff faster.
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:42.639
Like I don't, you know, I don't know what those things are, but you would I just don't see how that's not that's literally those are selected genes.
00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:43.760
Well, what did you select?
00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:46.880
You selected the superior or the like the better or the worst ones?
00:51:47.039 --> 00:51:49.280
Well, you said you selected like the best ones.
00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:55.599
That is to me, that is like literally it's still eugenics.
00:51:56.239 --> 00:52:05.840
If you call if you didn't say that that was genetic superiority because we were just being nice, it's still eugenics, even if you don't call it that, in my opinion.
00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:27.760
I I would think it's yeah, I guess when I say selected, I think of selection in the turn in the same context as I think of natural selection, where it's like being short can be a you can be a superior member of your species as a short member of your species because you know you are able to scamper across the forest floor faster.
00:52:28.159 --> 00:52:34.159
Thinking about like the uh homo floresiensis where people evolved to be smor s smaller, right?
00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:42.480
And so s and and so that you know they were selected for that, not because it was intrinsically superior, but because it fitness it was best fit.
00:52:42.639 --> 00:52:44.639
It it made them more fit for the circumstance.
00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:47.519
And so I feel like, you know, that's a good point.
00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:48.159
That's a good point.
00:52:48.559 --> 00:52:50.800
So I think like that caveat is important.
00:52:50.960 --> 00:53:04.400
Although again, I think that this is an if we have the technology to do this, and there are places in the world where this is legally okay, I think it's inevitable that it's going to happen across humanity.
00:53:05.039 --> 00:53:06.320
Yeah, you think so?
00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:09.440
I just I guess I think it stands to reason.
00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:13.760
Yeah, I guess it's like if it's pop I'm still not even convinced.
00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:16.559
I'm not convinced on the longevity thing.
00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:20.800
I guess like I understand that like the designer baby thing.
00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:44.480
I understand like what things seem pop, but I guess it just feels to me like there's just no way that and this maybe is like a lack of my understanding or imagination that you can't that we know enough about the human genome to be able to go in and fix the things that would allow us to be able to live way longer.
00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:48.079
I guess, and I it just literally could be my own ignorance.
00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:55.760
It seems like such a complicated, like literally, we need all of your DNA, your cells need to all be different.
00:53:56.079 --> 00:54:01.519
Yeah, I mean, I I'd say the human genome is more complicated than the rat or mice genome, right?
00:54:01.679 --> 00:54:19.519
But the fact that there have been these emergent discoveries and the destruction of senescent cells in mice suggests that there may be a relatively simple answer, you know, where it's like you program cells in your entire body to just kill off senescent cells sooner, right?
00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:28.079
And so all the only cells that are in your body are fresh cells, you know, and like the overall efficiency of the system stays high, and then that can extend lifespan.
00:54:28.239 --> 00:54:29.199
Does that make sense?
00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:30.559
Yeah, yeah, it does make sense.
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:33.519
Yeah, so I I mean I I could see it being possible.
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:37.519
Again, I also am not a genealogist or a genetic researcher.
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:48.880
So yeah, you know, maybe we should uh we should try to get like a somebody who does this like aging research on because I'm curious about I just yeah, I mean, I don't I don't know anything, anything about it.
00:54:49.039 --> 00:54:49.599
Yeah.
00:54:49.840 --> 00:54:57.599
Um I remember we taught so you from a previous show, we the colour collab with um Science in the City.
00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:05.039
You were saying, you and uh Kalpana were saying that you y'all both would choose immortality if you could.
00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:06.880
I think that it's maddening.
00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:09.119
I think it would be maddening to live forever.
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:14.960
I also think it would be somewhat maddening to live, truly live forever.
00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:19.840
Um to be biologically immortal is an interesting concept to me.
00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:25.519
Um I don't feel like, you know, just just turning, just hitting my early 30s.
00:55:25.599 --> 00:55:32.400
I feel like I'm starting to hit experience some of the early effects of aging, and I'm like, I don't really like what it's early stuff, man.
00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:33.440
You know, just it's a little stuff.
00:55:33.679 --> 00:55:35.039
You still got a healthy hairline?
00:55:35.519 --> 00:55:36.639
Yeah, but you all right.
00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:43.119
I think the first thing that that really hit me, I was like, okay, I might be getting a little older, is like my ability to digest things.
00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:55.760
Like when I was like a teenager or even in my early 20s, I would just eat incredible amounts of food, super fast metabolism, yeah, and even like I think dairy products, you know, like just nothing would like bother, it would just stuff would just go through me.
00:55:55.840 --> 00:55:57.360
Nothing would like bother me or nothing.
00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:00.800
Like it wasn't, I didn't have to get particular about like my diet as much.
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:03.679
And now it's like I feel everything I eat.
00:56:03.920 --> 00:56:06.880
And that's like oh everyone was always talking like that when I was younger.
00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:08.960
And then I was like, I don't know what you guys are talking about.
00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:10.559
Like, it's just food, eat the food.
00:56:10.719 --> 00:56:12.880
And now I'm like, oh, that's what y'all meant.
00:56:13.119 --> 00:56:13.760
Okay, yeah.
00:56:14.079 --> 00:56:16.960
Um, so I was just like, oh, okay, it's more of this coming down the pipe.
00:56:17.119 --> 00:56:17.679
Yeah.
00:56:18.079 --> 00:56:29.280
I uh something that I remember um is uh when I started like with my the way that I was respond to alcohol changed a lot.
00:56:29.599 --> 00:56:40.639
When I was younger, you could like I would like could drink uh at a at a party or something like when I was in college and practice in the morning and like go hard and like be okay.
00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:53.599
And now something which is why I've like scaled way back on uh on drinking, I'll drink and then I'll I would feel like shit for like multiple days and not even like hung over, you know.
00:56:53.679 --> 00:56:59.599
I don't like it's not like I'm like pout throwing back shot after shot, but I just feel it was just like a haze.
00:56:59.920 --> 00:57:03.199
It just doesn't, I just don't feel like you're working the same.
00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:06.880
And yeah, it was like I'll put put this body this poison, I guess, in my body.
00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:12.639
And technically as you get older, you're just not as good as you're like past your prime.
00:57:12.960 --> 00:57:30.000
And so we have to do the we have to do these things like redefine socially what a prime is, and people have to like be like, I don't know why you think you're old at 35 when literally it's the number that we know that half the people died before for most of humanity.
00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:36.960
It's like I don't know why you think you're old, even though you've like outlived most humans that have ever lived already.
00:57:37.199 --> 00:57:43.199
Uh, but it's important because it's like well, because it's different now, like the rules, the rules have changed.
00:57:43.599 --> 00:57:44.639
Yeah, it's weird, man.
00:57:44.800 --> 00:57:53.519
I think that so you know, one challenge that uh you put for aging is these like microengineering challenges.
00:57:53.679 --> 00:57:55.199
Like, how do we come up with these things?
00:57:55.360 --> 00:58:10.639
But like another challenge is that we've never have ever had a selection pressure for aging healthily, for you know what psychologically is the bet the thing, the challenges that that people have to go through.
00:58:10.960 --> 00:58:12.719
And that's gonna, you know, that's a problem.
00:58:12.800 --> 00:58:18.880
And I think we already see that that it's a problem in a ch in a society that has a quick turnover.
00:58:19.199 --> 00:58:25.280
Why the I would say it's maladaptive that people last as long as they do now.
00:58:25.440 --> 00:58:32.320
The reason why I say that is because our government, you know, social socially humans accrue power over time.
00:58:32.639 --> 00:58:34.719
This is something I guess that's always been true.
00:58:35.039 --> 00:58:50.880
Well, our you know, Congress is the people who are making the laws, they're all otous shit, they're all boomers, and they are in my opinion, are all wrecking the country through like just normal human things like greed, um, you know, ignorance, whatever.
00:58:51.039 --> 00:58:53.440
They they you know do insider shit.
00:58:53.599 --> 00:59:03.840
They do, they just like do all these things, but society is like changing really fast, and they're just slow and cumbersome, they're like changing, so it's like we you need them to die, right?
00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:05.599
So I think we've talked about this before.
00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:08.480
It's like we all just want to live forever, yeah.
00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:17.760
Um, but a society cannot progress, you know, when there's a bunch of oh the when the old guard is running it.
00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:27.679
I think that is true as we understand old people today who have brains that lose neuroplasticity over time.
00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:36.719
But if you can imagine a person at 75 who has a brain with the neuroplasticity of a 20-year-old, I don't know if that would be the same.
00:59:36.880 --> 00:59:37.039
Hmm.
00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:37.840
You think so?
00:59:38.079 --> 00:59:38.639
I don't know.
00:59:38.719 --> 00:59:46.719
I I just can't say with certainty that a 70-year-old whose mind is as flexible and open, can learn new things, can pick up stuff as quick, you know?
00:59:46.960 --> 00:59:50.639
Yeah, but like that's like a fundamental trait that defines older people.
00:59:50.800 --> 00:59:52.400
Like they just can't pick up on things.
00:59:52.639 --> 00:59:59.039
But is that the is that the the issue with old people that their brains aren't plastic enough?
00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:16.800
Like, is it is it the is the reason why um boomer, well, you know, and this is just me thinking out loud and like asking myself the question is the reason why I'm saying a bunch of boomers running Congress is making the country worse, is it because their brains aren't plastic enough?
01:00:17.039 --> 01:00:38.639
Or is it because the exact people who um will desperately grasp for attention, power, and control will find themselves in the most powerful, most high status and um, you know, leverage controlled positions by the end of their lives.
01:00:38.800 --> 01:00:40.079
And they're not giving that up.
01:00:40.159 --> 01:00:53.119
And I don't know if that has anything to do with the like neuroplasticity, like the way that they feel about the changing attitudes uh to towards like LGBTQ community or something like that, I think is not why they're screwing up the country.
01:00:53.199 --> 01:01:04.000
I think it has a lot more to do with they're probably like they're probably like narcissistic psychopath uh psychopaths that are you you you see what I'm saying?
01:01:04.079 --> 01:01:19.119
Like, and we like select it's like this a accrual of social power, and you have all that and you're living like longer and longer, and it's like if you were if they were more plastic, they would just be doing they would be like doing exploitation better.
01:01:19.360 --> 01:01:20.079
Yeah, okay.
01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:36.719
Now, I um before I say this, I want to like I'm I'm not 100% sure about the actual data that supports this, but my understanding is that a lot of these psychological disorders that we've classified actually rear their heads in like our 30s or like later on in life.
01:01:36.880 --> 01:01:38.719
Like a lot of them, like um, what do you mean?
01:01:39.039 --> 01:01:49.760
Like some of these personality disorders, I think, um, you know, like borderline personality disorder, or again, I I don't want to speak with conviction about this because this is outside of my domain of expertise.
01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:56.880
But um, I believe that, yeah, like most of these things like are not as present in younger-minded people.
01:01:57.280 --> 01:01:59.760
You think younger-minded people are not more narcissistic?
01:01:59.920 --> 01:02:02.960
I would say that social media has made everybody more narcissistic.
01:02:03.280 --> 01:02:04.159
Self-centered, yeah.
01:02:04.320 --> 01:02:04.960
Yeah.
01:02:05.440 --> 01:02:07.679
Um I, yeah.
01:02:08.079 --> 01:02:25.360
I don't, yeah, I just and it's not that I guess it's just like at the there's like this a huge selection pressure by the end of people's lives, you know, the most powerful people are probably the people who are the most hungry for power there over that entire time.
01:02:25.599 --> 01:02:26.079
Sure.
01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:31.440
And that is never who you want running something that's dynamic.
01:02:32.079 --> 01:02:34.000
They're trying to get more power.
01:02:34.239 --> 01:02:34.559
Right.
01:02:34.639 --> 01:02:37.039
They're not trying to be agile, flexible, and adaptable.
01:02:37.119 --> 01:02:38.960
They're trying to include accumulate more power for themselves.
01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:39.280
Right.
01:02:39.360 --> 01:02:40.320
It's a control thing.
01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:44.159
It's very hard to control something that's like new and dynamic.
01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:50.559
And if anything, all they you know, they're gonna want to guide that thing into a way that can be more powerful for them.
01:02:50.800 --> 01:02:53.679
So it's like we need, we need people.
01:02:53.920 --> 01:02:56.159
Like that's a question that that doesn't come up.
01:02:56.239 --> 01:02:58.000
Like, we need people to die.
01:02:58.320 --> 01:02:59.920
We need people to not live forever.
01:03:00.079 --> 01:03:04.320
I don't want Elon Musk and Sam Altman and all the tech CEOs.
01:03:04.400 --> 01:03:05.679
I don't want them to live forever.
01:03:05.840 --> 01:03:10.800
I don't want them to be to like I don't want us to like figure out aging and then them they just might.
01:03:12.400 --> 01:03:12.960
I don't want that.
01:03:13.039 --> 01:03:19.679
I think that and it's not not like personally, you know, I don't think that they've I don't have like ill feelings toward them.
01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:30.320
I don't think that or I don't think that society ever pro progresses, ever, if the old people and the old ideas don't die.
01:03:32.559 --> 01:03:36.400
I think I definitely think the old ideas have to evolve.
01:03:37.039 --> 01:03:39.119
I guess death of those ideas.
01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:42.960
I feel like death and evolution can be used interchangeably in this context.
01:03:43.440 --> 01:03:45.280
There's uh I'm gonna look up this quote.
01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:49.119
It's a quote about um old physicists.
01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:50.559
Uh yeah.
01:03:50.800 --> 01:03:52.239
So just give me a second.
01:03:52.400 --> 01:04:04.719
There's a there's this quote from Max Planck, uh sort of a famous physicist, um, highly influential, very, very important in uh the foundation of our physics understanding.
01:04:05.039 --> 01:04:18.639
A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that's familiar with it.
01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:36.719
And this is, you know, you think about this sort of what I'll call the golden era of physics, where all these discoveries and all these foundational realizations and um equations are being derived that like sort of bolster up everything that we know about physics now.
01:04:36.960 --> 01:04:49.679
And it's like you don't, you know, it's not it's not the hard scientific evidence that ushers in um you know, like this new understanding and acceptance of things, it's that old people die.
01:04:49.840 --> 01:04:59.039
And like obviously people accept new scientific evidence, and so you know, it's there's a little hyp hyperbole there, but even you know, a physicist.
01:04:59.119 --> 01:05:11.519
This is a guy who's going up against other scientists, and he's like, no, it's not that these are the most eloquent things, it's that these old people are dying, new people are coming up, and they learn the new ideas.
01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:35.760
And I just feel like that's there's something, yeah, like there's something about the way that we live now, and I think the way that probably humans lived for so long that you know, as you got older, things weren't always drastically changing, and you needed to conserve when you figure when you figure out something that works, you need to conserve it.
01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:39.360
And we were just like in this crazy dynamic environment.
01:05:39.599 --> 01:05:44.239
And no, like now you need to not conserve anything because things are changing so fast.
01:05:44.400 --> 01:05:47.679
You need to, you know, we have these old laws, and it's weird.
01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:59.760
Like we we like can't get rid of old laws usually, but you can like add amendment, you can like you like add things on to fix longer and longer laws, so you just get this like longer and longer and longer list of laws, and it's where.
01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:05.679
You have some things that are just completely bastardized at this point, like the right to bear arms.
01:06:05.920 --> 01:06:12.239
It's like that was for they just wanted people to be able to have guns at a time where everybody had muskets.
01:06:12.400 --> 01:06:16.800
And it was like, well, the government's just not gonna come in with their muskets and take control of everything.
01:06:16.960 --> 01:06:19.119
The people have their muskets, it's fair.
01:06:19.280 --> 01:06:26.639
But you know, the government now has nuclear bombs, the government has drones, the government has things that you and I cannot have and cannot get.
01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:32.079
So if they wanted to turn that on us, what do we, you know, how am I gonna fight back?
01:06:32.159 --> 01:06:38.880
You're gonna fight back with like a gun that you bought at Walmart or something, and so it's like it's just not it's not relevant anymore.
01:06:39.199 --> 01:06:51.920
Um, and you know, the laws are sort of like a a concrete example of this, but I think the same thing just happens with with people, like the new like we probably need to redo our our bill of rights.
01:06:52.239 --> 01:06:54.800
Yeah, yeah, I 100% agree with that.
01:06:55.039 --> 01:07:02.320
Um, I think that perhaps the next generation of tools and people can actually address these things more efficiently, because you're right.
01:07:02.480 --> 01:07:04.079
Yeah, if we die, we have to die.
01:07:04.239 --> 01:07:08.719
But we don't specifically You said the next generation of tools and people, yeah.
01:07:09.519 --> 01:07:13.760
Meaning us, we're not in like by and large, we're not in those positions to make decisions.
01:07:14.000 --> 01:07:18.239
Yeah, because we keep extending the age that we were extending.
01:07:18.559 --> 01:07:21.440
You're extending their lifespans, they need to die.
01:07:21.519 --> 01:07:22.719
Yeah, is that what you're saying?
01:07:22.960 --> 01:07:33.280
I'm saying that I think that we all think that we're so clever, and you and I think that when we get older, we'll be different than the old people.
01:07:33.519 --> 01:07:35.519
Oh, yeah, I don't think I don't necessarily think so.
01:07:35.760 --> 01:07:36.000
Right.
01:07:36.079 --> 01:07:40.239
Well, you yeah, you know, I'm I guess I'm like, I'm kind of like I'm speaking for everybody, right?
01:07:40.320 --> 01:07:48.400
Like we all think that we have the right ideas and that old people don't get it, and that's what the old people thought when they were young about the old people before them.
01:07:48.639 --> 01:07:53.760
And the only reason that things kind of get to progress is because the old people fall out of power.
01:07:54.079 --> 01:07:57.679
But we as we keep extending that that age, right?
01:07:57.760 --> 01:08:05.840
And people are accrue accrue more and more social power and financial power and influence and all these things, then you you like you hold back society.
01:08:05.920 --> 01:08:08.400
And I feel like people feel like that, you know.
01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:12.880
Um, other like our system is not working for a lot of people, and people feel that.
01:08:13.039 --> 01:08:24.000
People understand that people know that it's like what back in the day, a man that didn't even go to college could have a job, just a normal job at a factory, right?
01:08:24.399 --> 01:08:36.319
Do do like honest work and then live this super dishonest lifestyle where like you had a family in this town and this town off of like a milkman's salary, and you had all these families, you can't do that.
01:08:36.560 --> 01:08:45.039
You go to you if you get a I mean, you get a degree now and you're in debt from getting the degree, and you can't even find a job that could like pay that back quickly.
01:08:45.119 --> 01:08:47.520
It's like something that happens over a super long time.
01:08:47.680 --> 01:08:51.039
So it's like we live in a it's just super unrealistic.
01:08:51.520 --> 01:08:52.159
Yeah.
01:08:52.640 --> 01:09:02.159
I agree, I agree, but I think this is actually all supporting evidence that we should definitely stay curious and not nosy.
01:09:02.399 --> 01:09:03.039
You think so?
01:09:03.359 --> 01:09:04.800
No, I just I just made that up.
01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:05.600
Oh, okay.
01:09:05.760 --> 01:09:06.079
Yeah.
01:09:06.319 --> 01:09:08.399
I would say I don't know.
01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:11.279
I definitely agree that we should stay curious.
01:09:11.680 --> 01:09:17.439
I don't know how I don't know if that was in support of staying curious, though.
01:09:17.680 --> 01:09:22.800
Well, I think on that note, we should let everybody know that, as always, stay curious.
01:09:23.119 --> 01:09:23.520
Peace.
01:09:23.680 --> 01:09:24.000
Peace.
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:01.199
Welcome back.
00:00:01.439 --> 00:00:06.799
If we were to do episode one of Curiosity Theory, how would it be different today than it would have been?
00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:08.000
That's a good question.
00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:12.080
I think that that episode, first of all, that's one of our highest viewed episodes.
00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:13.199
Down downloaded.
00:00:13.359 --> 00:00:14.720
Highest downloaded episodes.
00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:17.359
I also think it is one of the our best episodes.
00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:20.640
I also think that the title is our best at best episode.
00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:22.960
Yeah.
00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:23.679
I got you.
00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:24.320
I got you.
00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:26.800
That's a actually ableist what you just did.
00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:27.280
Oh.
00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:30.160
Well, yeah, I was just I was just repeating what I heard.
00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:30.719
Yeah.
00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:31.199
Yeah.
00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:32.719
Now you're gaslighting me.
00:00:33.119 --> 00:00:35.920
That's also ableist because I'm media illiterate.
00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:36.399
Right.
00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:39.119
You're taking advantage of my contextual illiteracy.
00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:44.719
So I actually like well, the name of that first episode before we get too uh far down the rabbit hole, Rabbit Hole.
00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:46.640
Um, not the rabbit hole.
00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:50.640
Uh is Curiosity as a North Star.
00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:51.039
Uh-huh.
00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:53.520
Oh, I'm gonna get that tattooed on my body.
00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:54.000
Okay.
00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:56.240
Curiosity as a North Star.
00:00:56.479 --> 00:00:56.640
All right.
00:00:56.960 --> 00:01:07.599
And it was like, so we had this episode with uh with Hank Green recently that was posted, and he, you know, he started talking about curiosity and like interest.
00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:20.640
He's you know, so we're sort of using curiosity and interest interchangeably, and that you know, interest, a lack of interest is one way that you could describe feeling depressed, having like uh sort of a fog of depression.
00:01:20.719 --> 00:01:26.719
You know, there's there are different things that people can be depressed about, but usually it's like a there's a real apathy that sets in.
00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:27.519
It can be.
00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:38.319
And that sometimes, like in our lives, if uh if otherwise things seem like they should be okay, if you just there's just not a lot of stuff that you're interested in.
00:01:38.799 --> 00:01:42.000
It just, you know, the colors are dimmer, it just doesn't feel as good.
00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:43.920
There's like this haze sitting over you.
00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:54.640
And I really liked that because that is exactly the experience that I think I've had at times in my life, and that is exactly the role that curiosity and interest play.
00:01:54.879 --> 00:02:06.959
And a phrase, a title for that phenomena could be curiosity as a North Star, like a thing that that guides you, and that is what we named the first episode, yeah, which was fire.
00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:11.759
I always think it's you know, when you talk a lot, you forget what you said.
00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:16.080
I feel like you ever seen the videos of Lil' Wayne?
00:02:16.479 --> 00:02:18.800
They'll like read him lyrics that he rapped.
00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:20.800
He'd be like, damn, that's fire.
00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:22.000
Who said that?
00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:24.159
Yeah, and he was like, Oh, that was me.
00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:26.400
And it's kind of like a meme.
00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:28.960
Um, but that was a that was a fire episode.
00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:30.000
I don't know what we would change.
00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:31.759
I wouldn't do it at that same studio.
00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:32.879
Yeah, yeah.
00:02:33.039 --> 00:02:37.199
I mean, but I think I would because we had to get it out the mud, man.
00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:44.080
And uh Well, so if your thing is like, would you change your experiences because they made you who you are, then no.
00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:44.879
Right.
00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:51.199
Then why'd you ask the question if you were gonna do this gotcha journalism on me and be like, oh well, I don't know if it was a gotcha.
00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:52.639
I think it's maybe a difference in opinion.
00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:58.240
Like maybe you like the air-conditioned fancy studio, and I'm just more of like a you know, like a greedy guy.
00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:04.560
Yeah, but I will say that your chair was catching the only AC that existed in that.
00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:05.199
It was.
00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:06.000
That's a fair point.
00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:07.439
Yeah, that's a fair point.
00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:15.039
Um, but no, I think curiosity is a really interesting word that we've dissected from a lot of angles.
00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:16.800
I always have felt this way.
00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:18.879
I feel like you're like this too.
00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:22.560
I think there's a difference between being curious and being nosy.
00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:25.599
I don't think I'm very nosy, but I think I'm very curious.
00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:26.159
Hmm.
00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:34.560
Well, how would you differentiate uh so I think nosy tends to be uh and and this is like a slang term, right?
00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:38.719
So I'm just defining it colloquially, like sticking your nose in people's business.
00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:42.719
Like, oh, I want to know, like, oh, I don't, I don't, like I didn't get the full story about this.
00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:47.199
I want to dive into this person's backstory on my own and like try to figure it out, you know?
00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:50.479
Um not so interested in that personally.
00:03:50.719 --> 00:03:53.439
Is that not just a thing that you're not curious about though?
00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:53.919
Correct.
00:03:54.000 --> 00:04:01.919
I think it's a so you're are you just labeling things that you don't find curious as something I guess I'm curious, but just not about other people's business.
00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:05.280
Because I guess nosy is a form of curiosity, right?
00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:07.599
Like a sub-genre of curiosity.
00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:18.000
You think it's a subgenre and not just a specific thing like somebody like a sign, you know, an astronomer maybe is nosy about that star system over there.
00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:18.399
Like shit.
00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:20.319
I'm trying to figure out these stars.
00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:22.800
Trying to figure out what they got going on over there.
00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:24.879
Sticking his nose in all the stars.
00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:27.360
I don't know if I would use the word nosy there.
00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:33.120
Because nosy implies that you're cu you're trying to get another, you're you're curious about somebody else's business.
00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:37.600
Yeah, nosy implies interpersonal curiosity.
00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:39.920
Um, which I do think I have some curiosity about.
00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:45.360
But if it's like a person is not really comfortable sharing or they just don't feel like well, okay.
00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:49.920
So you're on a, let's say you're on a uh you're on a date or something like that.
00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:54.720
Are you not nosy about this person's background?
00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:56.879
I mean, we're making this a dating show now.
00:04:57.040 --> 00:04:57.439
All right.
00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:13.279
Well, uh, since you asked, uh, I think, no, I think I think if I'm on a date, um I would be interested in the person, but not I feel like nosy implies a degree of boundary pushing as well.
00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:14.160
You think so?
00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:20.720
So, like to be nosy about a person's business as as opposed to being curious about a person's business, although you can conflate the two.
00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:32.160
I would say like I'm curious about your life, but I'm not nosy about your personal business in a way that's like, well, you have this boundary, or perhaps there's an implied boundary about I don't really want to share this yet, we're not at that place.
00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:35.040
And I'm like, uh what you got going on there?
00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:39.199
You know, sticking my nose in it, and I'm trying to figure out what it is before you're ready.
00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:43.920
You know, like why does it have to be before, like before they're ready?
00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:47.279
Yeah, I guess I guess nosiness doesn't necessarily necessitate that.
00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:48.480
Yeah.
00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:51.600
But yeah, I just I don't know, I just don't identify with the word as much.
00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:53.839
Clearly identify with curiosity.
00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:55.680
Like, would you say you're a nosy person?
00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:57.680
I think that you could, yeah.
00:05:57.759 --> 00:05:58.399
I mean, yeah.
00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:00.160
I think that I'm a pretty nosy guy.
00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:03.519
I'm like, I want to understand things, I want to understand lots of things.
00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:04.639
I'm curious, I'm curious about life.
00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:06.560
I don't think that I like gossip a lot.
00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:10.800
If you're talking about, is it specifically like, oh, we're like gossiping about something?
00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:12.000
Is that what nosy means?
00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:25.839
If that's what it means, then yeah, but uh if nosy just means that you're very curious about like social dynamics and like what the dynamics are of like a relationship or something, I mean I think that that's curious.
00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:28.959
I think that that's a application of curiosity.
00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:34.319
I don't know if that's necessarily like the things that I tend to be curious about, but I'm definitely curious about people.
00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:51.680
Yeah, and if I and I'm definitely like if I go to like I feel like if I go somewhere new, I want to like see what's in like if I went, if I like if I went over to your house for the first time, I'm gonna look, I wanna like look around and like see what's in the pantry.
00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:55.600
I'm gonna see like what is like what's behind these doors, what's in this closet?
00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:56.879
Is that nosy?
00:06:57.120 --> 00:06:58.800
Perhaps I guess it depends.
00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:02.399
So I've done that before where I've walked, I've like, you know, I got invited.
00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:05.839
I didn't even like break in to someone's house, and I like look around.
00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:12.639
Yeah, like I want to see what's in closets and cabinets and drawers, and yeah, like I want to see what's in here.
00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:15.199
I'm very I'm interested, like I wanna understand.
00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:16.480
It is curiosity.
00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:21.920
This is usually and usually people do say something like, yo, like bro, what are you doing?
00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:24.800
But you're like, this is just me being a curious guy.
00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:25.519
I'm curious.
00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:33.120
Man, I'm just like curious of like what's in here, like what and what this is a new environment.
00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:34.319
I want to explore the environment.
00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:39.519
Like a cat, like a you gotta sniff out everything that you I'm just curious.
00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:40.079
All right.
00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:44.879
It's my favorite quality about myself is my curiosity.
00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:53.120
I feel equally curious, but just I feel like when I go to someone's house, I'm like, uh, let me watch out for the things that seem private or sacred.
00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:57.519
Because I it's probably not I don't really need I don't really need that in my brain.
00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:03.199
So some would say that you're just not all that serious about your curiosity.
00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:06.959
Yeah, I would say I'm precise with my curiosity.
00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:19.199
Like I I tend to be selective about the things that I allow into my brain, or at least I try to be, you know, we can't control that fully, but yeah, but that's not what I feel like you were just describing right there.
00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:20.000
I think it is.
00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:24.480
I think I'm I'm Well, you're it's not that you were saying that you didn't want to cross all these boundaries.
00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:32.320
I'm deciding not to take a course of action that will create a situation where there are things in my brain that don't necessarily need to be in there.
00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:40.799
For example, a person's personal belongings that may allow me to form new beliefs about them that I don't necessarily need to form.
00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:43.279
You don't just want to know what's behind that door.
00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:45.039
Not necessarily.
00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:45.759
I do.
00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:51.519
I want to know what's behind a lot of doors, but it sounds like you're the type of person in a scary movie that would probably be first to die.
00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:53.120
I don't know.
00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:55.440
I um I don't know.
00:08:55.600 --> 00:08:56.639
I don't think so.
00:08:57.120 --> 00:08:59.200
I mean, that's exactly how the people die.
00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:00.559
Yeah, it's a scary movie.
00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:02.320
This is made up, it's not real.
00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:04.799
Yeah, but I feel like it's based on reality.
00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:07.360
You feel like scary movies are based on reality.
00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:09.120
Well, the idea of group dynamics.
00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:13.759
You feel like the scary movies horror films are based on reality.
00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:17.440
I feel like if we isolate this concept of like, oh, what's behind that door?
00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:20.240
Like, those people don't survive and reproduce.
00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:22.879
Um, I disagree.
00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:25.759
Sometimes they discover a new continent or a new country.
00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:26.480
Disagree.
00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:27.600
And sometimes they die.
00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:40.720
It's like would say, and I would even put, I think that we have a mission statement for our podcast, which is literally that our ancestors evolved to be vigorously and wildly curious.
00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:41.279
Yeah.
00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:45.120
And so I do I just disagree that they would die.
00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:49.759
I mean, ooh, maybe sometimes what happens if I walk up to this tiger, you know?
00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:52.320
Like, you want to know that?
00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:55.200
I I know what happens if you walk up to a tiger.
00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:56.720
How can you be 100% sure?
00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:58.960
How can you be 100% sure of anything?
00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:00.240
Exactly.
00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:05.200
So if that's the case, you know, why why not let your curiosity extend into that direction?
00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:08.240
I'm not curious about what would happen if you walk up to a tiger.
00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:11.519
I'm curious about what's in your fridge.
00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:15.279
Not to judge not I'm just curious.
00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:19.200
It's like you're getting it's like you're getting to know somebody.
00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:20.639
It's like a question that you ask.
00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:29.200
Like I'm not gonna ask a super invasive question, but I may ask a kind of invasive question because I'm curious.
00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:30.320
This guy's a villain.
00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:37.279
This guy's a villain, and I'm fine with also I'm I'm fine with also answering questions that you know on that level.
00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:38.240
Invasive.
00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:38.799
That's good.
00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:40.639
If you can take a dose of your own medicine, that's good.
00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:51.279
Okay, so it's like, you know, at what point do you can you stop doing like a polite, you know, uh surface level conversation, like small talk?
00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:54.240
Because you're not learning anything about anybody during small talk.
00:10:54.559 --> 00:11:05.919
I mean, you can be like good at small talk, and there can be like an exchange there, but if I'm trying to understand you and like understand how you think and like get to know you better, you're gonna have to be invasive.
00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:11.600
You think that's the one route to understanding a person?
00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:21.360
No, it's not the one route to understanding a person, it's a way to get to understand what's in there.
00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:24.960
And you're saying inv you know, invasive sounds bad.
00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:26.960
I think invasive has a connotation.
00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:30.559
But um like invasive species, for example.
00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:31.679
Invasive species.
00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:32.960
Yeah, we want to get rid of those.
00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:34.000
Yeah, true.
00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:36.159
So maybe invasive is not the right word.
00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:39.200
Maybe the word is because we easily could just frame it differently.
00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:43.120
I could say it's just very exploratory.
00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:45.120
Yeah.
00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.399
Which is like walking somewhere new and looking around.
00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:51.919
Yeah, like in some like a new fridge that you found.
00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:55.279
Yeah, well, you know, it's uh I guess it's a framing thing.
00:11:55.840 --> 00:12:03.360
To some animals in the environment, uh explorers showing up are an invasive species.
00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:07.600
However, to some other environment uh animals, maybe not.
00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:15.440
If you are finding yourself inside of my mind and I want you there, that's not invasive.
00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:15.919
Yeah.
00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:25.279
If you're if I'm enjoying it, if you're enjoying my penetration of your mind, that's not invasive.
00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:27.279
Yeah, you may not want me to leave.
00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:27.919
Where's consent?
00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:30.240
I may want to get out of here and you may not want me to leave.
00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:32.080
Where's consent involved in this interaction?
00:12:32.159 --> 00:12:35.600
Is it this is a conversation that you're enjoying?
00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:37.440
Oh, I'm enjoying this conversation.
00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:41.440
I can tell that you like when I'm in here.
00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:41.759
Yeah.
00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:42.240
Like this.
00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:42.720
Okay.
00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:43.440
Okay.
00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:46.399
And if you like it and I like it, right?
00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:47.919
Then we're both, you know.
00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:48.480
Yeah.
00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:49.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:51.679
Um, so no consent necessary.
00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:52.799
Is that what you're saying?
00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:55.360
For a conversation where you're exploring an area?
00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:57.679
Well, if it's yeah, like it could potentially be invasive.
00:12:57.919 --> 00:12:58.480
What does that mean?
00:12:58.559 --> 00:12:59.360
It's a conversation.
00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:01.120
You can stop it at any point.
00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:04.159
You can get up and leave right now, but you won't because you like it.
00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:08.159
I mean, that could be separate from consent in some context.
00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:10.240
Well, I mean, you sat down here.
00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:15.840
Uh we we we've uh recorded countless, countless hours of this.
00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:19.600
You push record on all the things, you're still sitting here and talking to me.
00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:22.399
This seems like Seems like I'm I I like it.
00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:26.799
It seems it seems like something that we're both consenting on.
00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:28.799
Is it not?
00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:29.840
Yeah, no, yeah, yeah.
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:34.320
We are both consenting at this point to doing this.
00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:35.360
Yeah, I would say so.
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:36.399
All right then.
00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:38.080
So what's your bit what's your problem?
00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:44.639
But I think it's consenting to the degree of invasiveness that could be up for debate in any given situation.
00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:45.600
Yeah, I don't know.
00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:47.440
I feel like I'm courageous.
00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:52.240
I hear what what I hear from you is that you that you like operate with a lot of fear.
00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:53.200
I don't.
00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:57.600
I'm not scared to like I'm not scared to trek.
00:13:57.919 --> 00:13:59.840
I do think that is a flavor of audacity.
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.320
I do think that I am similarly audacious, but just in a different direction.
00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:05.360
Oh, how so?
00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:13.759
I would say my audacity is going after things that like are above my whatever I'm supposed to be entitled to.
00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:17.679
And what are you s saying that I'm being audacious about?
00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:20.720
Um, people's personal business.
00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:24.879
How?
00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:28.399
Because I said that I want to know what's in your fridge.
00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.519
Well, you're courageously, you know, it's audacious.
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:32.159
It's like, look, man.
00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:32.639
I want to know.
00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:33.519
Like I'm in the fridge.
00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:34.159
I'm here.
00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:35.519
I'm like curious.
00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:37.200
What are you gonna do about it?
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:38.480
That's not like that.
00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:40.240
I wouldn't say that it's like that.
00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:43.360
Um, I do think that I'm curious about people.
00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:49.840
I don't think I think that I'm like to explore new things, new ideas, new topics, new sciences.
00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:52.000
I actually don't think there's anything wrong with that.
00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:58.960
I think, you know, um, yeah, but I do think it is important to challenge our ideas and sharpen them in this way.
00:14:59.200 --> 00:14:59.759
Yeah, I agree.
00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:01.679
And that's I think something we do with everything.
00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:02.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:25.759
Very important to be um like courageous with because I feel like you have to be if if courage is facing a fear, then I think that to be open-minded and to be a critical thinker, by definition, you have to be courageous because you have to be ready to let go of ideas which may be bolstering your ego or your um identity.
00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:27.360
That takes courage.
00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:33.120
The scary thing to do is to hold on tight to it and try to fight off anybody around, right?
00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:41.679
It's like courageous to open yourself up to that like vulnerability or like the uncertainty of you know, yeah.
00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:53.840
I would say that that's courageous, but I also think that there's like a potential area where certain things are sacred that they maybe want to remain untainted by other perspectives.
00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:54.399
Sure.
00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:55.120
You know?
00:15:55.519 --> 00:16:02.080
So I think like it can be an act of courage to protect that which is sacred in that regard as well.
00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:10.480
Um, yeah, I guess it all depends on framing, but if it's an idea, what's the problem with critiquing it?
00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:12.080
I don't think that's courageous at all.
00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:14.000
You can critique an idea.
00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:16.399
I mean, I yeah, I actually disagree.
00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:22.879
You disagree that um that that there that it's not it can't be an act of courage.
00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:29.600
I don't think that there's anything courageous about being afraid to critique an idea that you have.
00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:31.360
I think that that's the opposite of courage.
00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:36.000
I don't think that I don't think that I would frame that as courageous.
00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:50.000
Perhaps maybe being afraid to critique is not the direction that I would take it in, but more so um willing to uphold this idea in the face of criticism.
00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:54.559
And I think like, you know, there are some examples of that that probably are like non-scientific.
00:16:54.799 --> 00:17:00.559
Um, but like a principle, like um, I think everybody should be treated equally, for example, right?
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:10.079
Like in the face of uh, you know, like slavery or uh civil rights movements, that seems like a controversial thing that kind of doesn't seem right at the time.
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:15.200
Like the general consensus doesn't really agree with you, but it's like, no, I want to protect this idea.
00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.319
Yeah, but that's not because you're afraid to critique it.
00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:24.000
We could sit here right now and you would be totally fine to be like, well, I haven't revisited that in a while.
00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:24.799
Let's critique it.
00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:27.039
Do I really think everybody should be treated equally?
00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:28.880
Do I really think that everybody deserves right?
00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:31.680
That like, do I really think women should be able to have bank accounts?
00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:35.440
Do I really think that black people should be able to not, you know, be slaves or whatever?
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:39.839
I feel like you you could like critique all those and you'd probably just land in the same place.
00:17:40.079 --> 00:18:00.160
But it's it's not because you're like unwilling to critique that idea that you, you know, were unwilling to critique, I would say you know, is is a little bit different than like upholding something that you think absolutely stands up to right, upholding a sacred value in the face of criticism.
00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:11.039
And in that vein, I would agree with you if you feel if you can like sufficiently critique something, and then especially if it's something that other people disagree with, right?
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:14.559
Like we could do just we could do like a science example about this.
00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:20.559
Um, Galileo finding that the sun is at the center of the solar system.
00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:23.920
That's something that you know he was like critiquing a whole bunch of ideas.
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:26.559
He probably critiqued his own that idea himself a lot.
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:29.680
And he was like, No, it looks like Jupiter has moons that orbit it.
00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:38.720
Yeah, I can tell that Venus is orbiting the sun in the same way that the moon is orbiting the earth, and then it takes courage to like stand on those stand on the business.
00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:51.119
Yeah, um, but I would say that that, you know, it's only courageous after having gone through a critical, you know, that belief going through a critical process.
00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:59.839
And then in that, you sort of like demonstrated that you're not scary holding on to ideas that you're afraid are wrong.
00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:00.240
Yeah.
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:03.279
You're actually, it's the opposite, it's like building strength.
00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:03.759
Right.
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:13.119
You're kind of then presenting the idea and opening the forum of public mass criticism, uh, as opposed to protecting it from criticism.
00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:13.599
Yeah.
00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:16.079
But you're still like, no, I think this is right.
00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:20.640
Like, I hear all of these points and even give me more points that I didn't consider.
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:22.559
I still think this is probably right.
00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:22.960
Yeah.
00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:43.599
And there are a lot of times in science, early science, I think that um in environments where you know perhaps church and state weren't so separate that scientists had to be audacious in their and and even were murdered as a result of you know these like scientific principles that they had tested, that they, you know, stood for.
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:44.240
Yeah.
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:44.720
Totally.
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:52.480
Of somebody that was like persecuted for uh was Galileo persecuted?
00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.519
Yeah, I think you could, I mean, he was kind of a dickhead.
00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:02.000
Uh and so he would regularly like ruffle the feathers of the people in power.
00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:26.079
Um, but yeah, you know, the saying that the sun was at the center of things attacked what the church, the Catholic Church at the time held sacred, which was that the earth was at the center of everything, which feet which you know arises, I think, naturally from this perspective that God created the entire universe centered around us.
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:37.039
And so it like challenges that, which you can I can sort of like see from a a narrative perspective that that's actually kind of a big problem.
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:37.440
Yeah.
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:45.440
If everything is centered around, no, like the whole of existence is about us accepting that Jesus died for our sins, this is all that matters.
00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:48.640
God created humans, this is this is what it's all about.
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:52.880
Um, and then you're like, well, this is actually not the center center of anything.
00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:54.400
This is there is no center of anything.
00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:56.400
Like, who first of all, who the hell is this guy?
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.240
And let's get rid of him because like he's messing up the he's messing up the show.
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:01.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:01.839
Yeah.
00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:13.200
Um now, you know, it's not I don't think that the sun being at the center of our solar system is an argument against Christianity or religion or any religion.
00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:13.680
Right.
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:18.079
But um, that was like a part of the conventional thinking at the time.
00:21:18.400 --> 00:22:01.279
You know, this is like the work of I've heard people make the argument that um fossils that show that evolution happened were placed there by the devil to trick people or even by God to test people's faith, which is a crazy argument to me because you know I guess anytime that your your argument for like an omniscient, all knowing, all loving creator that cares about me and you, and cares about all of us and our well being, anytime that you have to make him a Bigger and bigger dick.
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:04.559
I just can't get on board with that.
00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:10.240
He created, he knows that it's hard to know anything as a person.
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:12.160
We have all these emotions and feelings.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:13.680
We all believe crazy shit.
00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:15.519
I used to believe that the tooth fairy was real.
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:19.119
You know, when I was like three or four or whatever, you believe anything.
00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:20.480
People believe anything.
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:35.519
And so you're gonna put hard physical evidence that we evolved from uh you know more ape-like creatures, or that you know, I guess technically that us and all the other great apes share an ancestor.
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:39.039
Why would you do that if that was not true?
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:43.279
And in fact, in that case, how can I ever know anything?
00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:50.720
All I can do is trust whatever's in this book and just assume that's true and everything else is false or lie.
00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.519
Now, whoever was in control of that book, I think benefits greatly from that.
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:56.160
Yeah.
00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:11.920
And but I whoever, yeah, but like, and I and I think that that's that's sort of like why somebody who comes along and says, Well, you know, it says that you know that the the earth was created, everything was created around it, that isn't true.
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:20.880
If one thing in this book isn't true, and this is supposed to be a sacred thing and everything's right, calls everything into question, sort of like collapse the the house of cards.
00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:21.680
Yeah.
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:22.559
Yeah.
00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:23.359
Yeah.
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:32.240
And and uh I think the process of science advancing over time, like that's occurred several times throughout the course of science.
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:38.319
Like new discoveries collapse entire fields of study and have to have them like rethought.
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:38.640
Yeah.
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:40.400
Uh and that's something You think so?
00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:43.599
Like, what is uh do you have like a something that comes to mind?
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:58.640
What I'm thinking about is I mean, even if you think of that just discovery of heliocentrism, like this idea that we revolve around the sun, like so many like a field like astrology that predates astronomy, right?
00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:14.079
And uh and actually is kind of the foundation that astronomy was built on, yeah, was I wouldn't argue like a hard science field, but it kind of had to collapse in the face of this scientific evidence, at least if one is to make empirical claims about the universe.
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:14.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:24.559
I guess we could sort of consider um a body of knowledge, like cultures, societies, humans have always had bodies of knowledge.
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:36.880
Now, that body of knowledge could include things that we know now are scientifically true, could also include things that are not possibly true, could include uh like other philosophical things, but they are like bodies of knowledge.
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:37.279
Yeah.
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:43.119
Here's another example that I that just comes to mind the discovery of microbial life.
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:54.960
Like I feel like so for so long we thought that sickness was caused by, you know, like demons or uh, you know, like ill will or like the bad vibes that you got from other people.
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:58.880
There's probably some people that still kind of believe that that's why you get sick.
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:12.559
But yeah, there are the you know, we discovered microbes, and then we discovered things like soap where you could like physically rinse off the microbes, and they dramatically reduced like the amount of deaths in like medical environments, right?
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:24.880
And so like entire fields had to shift after we've realized that there's living little tiny things uh you know that that that affect all of us, and we actually are a build up, like we actually are just a bunch of those.
00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:39.599
Yeah, you know, like yeah, that's uh and then it gets super complicated and and complex because then as we we realize that yeah, it's not the evil eye that made you sick, and it's not even like bad air.
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:46.400
They kind of thought that that was another early idea, and they're on the right track though that there's like ah, there's something wrong with that air.
00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:53.839
And it's like, well, there can be airborne pathogens, but it's not necessarily that the bad is air, the air is bad, right?
00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:01.119
Because I guess if you breathe in something, it is because you breathed in bad air, what we're gonna call bad air.
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:14.559
Uh but and then you you start to realize that wait a second, but like your interactions with other people, you know, what we could colloquially refer to as the bad energy actually can impact you, you know.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:19.119
If you're in like a bad relationship or you have a bad family dynamic, it can be very stressful.
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:30.720
That that added stress is like the more we learn about science, it's like, oh, well, that you know, being in a stressed-out state can actually um dampen your immune response.
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:34.160
And maybe it does become easier for you to get sick.
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:37.039
Again, you know, that may be it's from a virus, right?
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:39.839
It's not necessarily or a bacteria.
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:45.599
Um, but it could also just be like that being stressed out is weighing you down.
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:47.440
You don't have to get sick, but you do feel worse.
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:50.240
And that also is like an energy thing.
00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:59.680
And, you know, whenever the science comes out and says something like that, this is that's just an example, but we could be more rigorous and come up with um like concrete examples.
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:07.680
I think a thing that you'll always hear people say is like, oh, science is finally catching up to what the mystics have known for thousands of years.
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:12.160
Yeah, and it's like that tweet, you can pretty much tweet that and it'll go viral.
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:18.960
It feels like that's like a copy paste that I see a lot every few months, and it's like a bunch of people just like you don't even have to give it context.
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:21.680
Yeah, people is like, yeah, it's obvious, that's obviously true.
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:29.599
And I think that it's interesting because like there is a there's a that's has a certain percentage of accuracy.
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:30.799
I don't know what it is.
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:45.039
That is like 15% true that science, like over time, may oftentimes confirm something that that was like known, but it's but it was not really known for the right.
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:48.079
It's almost like sometimes you can be right, but for the wrong reason.
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:50.559
Yeah, it wasn't known empirically, you might say.
00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:54.640
Like that you don't know the underpinning reasons behind why you were correct.
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:56.319
You can't show your work.
00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:58.240
Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:00.000
But you know, I think that that's interesting.
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:04.559
Like the sort of things like that are are or like the placebo effect, right?
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:14.480
Which is like that um the like you your attitude, weirdly, your attitude can impact your your health.
00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:22.799
Yeah, and your experience of a drug or a stimulus, or yeah, yeah, but that's something that the mystics have known for thousands of years, right?
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:27.200
If you have a good attitude and you approach things with the right attitude, you can have a positive outcome.
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:36.559
Yeah, and that's uh but I mean that's like a weird thing that is it's true, is that your outlook, your perspective, right?
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:56.000
Yeah, and I think that that's uh that's like one of the cool things I think um, you know, not to you don't necessarily wanna I I I think that I naturally am resistant to any sort of this is what like old the like old knowledge being like sacred because it's old.
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:59.839
Like there can obviously be true like truth in that.
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:00.400
I don't know.
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:16.720
We you think about maybe um some uh tribe a long time ago maybe knew that they would like do something with a plant and they would um like mash up a couple different plants and I don't know, do a ceremony and that this stuff was supposed to help you feel better.
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:23.200
And then we realize now that like a lot of the medicine that we get comes from plants because they have medicinal properties.
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:31.119
And so it's like for that tribe, and I mean, you know, this is I wish I had a concrete example, but I think that we could find one if if we looked it up.
00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:43.119
And you're like, well, it wasn't necessarily that they conjured the a particular god or spirit, but it was that there was actually something going on going on that was that was helpful.
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:59.359
Uh but it, you know, if part of that spiritual cleansing uh involved or in that ceremony involved the whole community like praying and feeling like you were gonna get better and you believing that you were because of that, then you've got like multiple things happening.
00:29:59.440 --> 00:29:59.599
Right.
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:13.839
That there's like this application of medicine, that you know, whatever the property is in the plant, but there's also this like communal uplifting of your attitude and your spirits, and you think you're gonna get better, and everybody else does, and that like rubs off on you.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:18.880
And so, you know, they were they were they got there was a lot of things right in that.
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:25.519
And so, like that body of knowledge had lots of what we could confirm to be scientifically accurate.
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:26.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:33.599
We also have talked about um, or we actually, yeah, we talked before with an interview uh with Sue.
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:36.079
Uh she taught she does stem cell research, right?
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:37.359
Cardiomyocytes.
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:49.359
And we talked about uh, and she really like I remember her face lighting up when I said this about how we're starting to re-approach this idea of aging as this microengineering, series of microengineering challenges, right?
00:30:49.680 --> 00:31:03.599
Um, and you know, it it it fascinates me the prospect of the next generation of biological sciences where we can lift up the hood and see the underpinnings of how some of these things work, like the placebo effect.
00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:04.720
Like I'm really curious.
00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:09.839
I think the next generation of neuroscience might be able to shed more light on some of those things.
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:27.119
But also, uh, we were just talking about this clip from Ildegrass Tyson about um how basically, like, and again, I I don't know how he's able to support this research, but he said that I think cavemen, you know, like half of people died before the age of 30 in the time of the cavemen.
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:30.319
And then in the 1980s, that age became 35.
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:45.599
And then just recently, like we've had people as a result of medical advancements and our understanding of aging and some of these other things, we've had the life expectancy of an average human double just in the past about 150 years, but throughout the thousands of years uh before wait.
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:47.200
I thought you said, hold up.
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:49.039
Uh could you say that again?
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:49.680
What did you say?
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:51.279
I thought you said 1980s.
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:52.000
It was 35.
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:52.960
That can't be right.
00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:54.400
It was like in the 1800s.
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:54.880
I didn't say night.
00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:55.680
Did I say 1980?
00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:56.400
I said 1800.
00:31:56.480 --> 00:31:57.279
I meant 1800s.
00:31:57.440 --> 00:31:57.680
Okay.
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:06.480
All right, so all right, so it was the like roughly cavemen, whatever, thousands of years ago, the average age was 30.
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:10.240
But it's like like half peop half of the population lived to the age of 30.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:16.400
Which like drags down the average age of a human because it's like a lot of people are dying as babies or as kids.
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:21.920
And then in the 1850s or so, I think he said in the clip, half of people live to the age of 35.
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.359
And now, I mean, I don't know what the modern stat is.
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:27.039
We can we can look that up too.
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:29.519
Um, but a significantly higher percentage of people.
00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:30.079
Yeah.
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:36.160
Whatever the numbers are, it's obvious that right now people on average live longer than they did hundreds of years ago.
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:37.599
Yeah, ever in the past.
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:43.200
And so uh it feels like more and more of these discoveries are going to be uncovered over time.
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:43.519
Yeah.
00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:45.839
And things are gonna seem less vibey.
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:47.920
I mean, you know, but think so?
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:52.559
Perhaps, but but but then I feel like it's usually a moving goalpost with the with the vibes.
00:32:52.720 --> 00:33:03.119
You know, well, the because like washing your hands becomes something that probably could have saved hundreds of millions of people that have ever lived.
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:13.759
Um, and so or like, you know, learning uh like OBGYNs, people that are that are like versed in the health of mothers and and babies.
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:23.200
This sort of like wipes out all these deaths that used to happen from childbirth, which is uh, you know, how every life how every human life starts.
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:36.000
And so you uh you can like, yeah, we start to extend life, but then there are like all these things that we also do that are um like worse for our health or something.
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:42.240
So we sort of have like these much longer lives, but sometimes the lives are not as high quality, and maybe that's not even true at all.
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:45.759
Maybe it's not that the light like we eat worse food now.
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:48.960
We eat more processed food, but we still stay alive for a long time.
00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:50.319
On average, yeah.
00:33:50.480 --> 00:34:04.319
And I would think that again, based on a lot of the frontier aging research that's occurring right now, people are trying to extend both the quantity and quality of our lives in the in the longer term future.
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:04.799
Yeah.
00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:29.920
I wonder what that limit is of um like I hear people throw around there that I would think that there is a number of years where you you really can't like get farther than it without um like fundamentally changing your DNA and changing every CNN, like every cell in your body.
00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:30.320
Okay.
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:37.119
I mean right, like people live older now, but it's not because but you're you're just like extending the biology, right?
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:43.119
But I mean I think there's a lot of things that impose changes on our DNA, like getting a viral infection, you know?
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:46.880
Like I don't know if a change to our DNA is that like big of a deal.
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:53.440
Uh no, I well I would say that it absolutely is for if you're talking about genetic engineering.
00:34:53.519 --> 00:35:01.039
I think Yeah, I mean I I do think that that's probably the next generation of anti-aging like treatments.
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:08.480
Uh they're gonna be because you know, a lot of times what what aging actually is is this buildup of senescent cells in the body.
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:14.960
Like these, um we learned this in biology class and like college about this this notion of apoptosis.
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:17.199
It's like programmed cell death.
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:23.039
And it's basically when a cell kind of becomes dysfunctional and old, it is like destroyed by the body.
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:27.280
The rest of the body identifies it as not productive and kills it.
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:45.039
And as you get older, the body's immune system becomes and and other parts of the body become less proficient at recognizing aging cells and therefore um because yeah, therefore are unable to like reduce the overall amount of senescent cells in the body.
00:35:45.199 --> 00:36:03.199
And so there was some research that came out, I think in like 2016, about um senescent cells in mice, and that they were genetically programmed to remove uh senescent cells well into their later stages of their lives, and they lived up to like one-third to two-thirds longer.
00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:05.679
Uh, I believe there's like a paper that that cited that.
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:12.559
And that's that's yet to be translated into you know, like profound and productive research for human outcomes, to my knowledge.
00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:18.639
But like that's kind of the um, yeah, but uh yeah, it it it would require genetic alteration.
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:20.639
Yeah, yeah, that's super interesting.
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:29.760
So it's like I guess in my head, I think of extending human lives in a couple different tiers.
00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:38.000
Um, I guess one of the tiers is like the first tier is like removing whatever things kill people early on.
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:41.280
So lifestyle lifestyle changes.
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:57.119
Uh well, I mean, yeah, the difference in your tribe's lifestyle is trying not to get eaten by wolves, and your lifestyle is that you know, you're not gonna get eaten by a wolf as a baby, or you're not gonna die when you're born because your mother loses too much blood.
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:05.440
So it's like removing the things that are like um like I guess what we would see as now is completely preventable deaths.
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:10.719
So you kind of do that by or like starving at a young age.
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:15.679
So, in like, I guess in the US, you kind of do that by having a society.
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:26.559
Uh, you kind of like remove some of these things, and then modern medicine comes along and you like now you can like remove a lot of the pathogen, like you know, people still die from disease, but we got those numbers way down.
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:32.400
And then you introduce something like vaccines and you're like you're able to like eradicate some of those things that wiped out a lot of people.
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:52.639
And then if you are, you know, having like a relatively healthy and there's a lot you know research about this all the time of that you need to be physically active, you need to try and keep your legs strong and have good cardiovascular health, try to stay away from processed foods, then you can kind of like extend to what to your biological limits, right?
00:37:52.800 --> 00:38:03.119
There's like nothing coming in and like uh cutting your your legs out figuratively and literally is like you know, like a tiger cutting your legs out.
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:04.159
Yeah, also that.
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:04.480
Yeah.
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:17.360
And so now you have like a l a number where most people without being sick or having something that was preventable happen will live to be whatever that age is.
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:22.559
I think the average age in the US is maybe like high 70s.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:24.320
I know it's older for women than men.
00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:25.679
Yeah, but I think it's high 70s.
00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:27.920
The average is like high 70s, maybe low 80s.
00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:33.360
So I don't think that we're even there yet, because I think that we do a lot of unhealthy things still.
00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:44.159
And if we could like remove all those things and cut out carcinogen and stuff to the extent that we could, like maybe that I don't know, maybe that number's a hundred or a hundred and ten or something.
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:48.079
So here's another one that the mystics may have figured out before the scientists.
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:55.840
Uh like we we referred a little bit to the that uh blue zones documentary about like the places on earth that have a high percentage of the population that's lived over a hundred.
00:38:56.320 --> 00:38:57.119
Highly debunked.
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:00.079
Uh, every time we talk about this, we get comments that that's been debunked.
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:04.239
So the the the what what is the nature by which it's been debunked?
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:05.199
I think so.
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:13.280
I'd have to refresh my memory, but I think one of them is that there's no documentation for any of those people being the age that they say that they are.
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:13.920
Okay.
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:19.760
They're in like, you know, they're not they're not like checking their birth certificates.
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:20.079
Right.
00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:26.159
Well, okay, perhaps let's not talk about it in in such a scientific way then, and more in like a philosophical way.
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:38.159
So I think this is uh something that's kind of intangible and non-scientific that seems like it would, you know, it stands to reason that it would have a positive effect on lifespans, right?
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:40.880
This idea of having a community, right?
00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:45.119
Something that we don't have a lot in America because of our hyper-individualism.
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:47.280
Uh, like especially as we get older.
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:50.719
Um, you know, there are other cultures that rely on their elders.
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:54.880
One, so to give the elders a sense of community, but two, to give them a sense of purpose, right?
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:57.599
It feels like a lot of people, as they get older, they retire, right?
00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:01.199
That's like one of the things that happens like right before a lot of people die.
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:07.440
It's like they die first from lack of purpose, you know, like on a on a metaphorical level.
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:08.079
Yeah, you know.
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:13.199
They also set the retirement age at like a decade before most people die.
00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:14.079
Right.
00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:21.599
So, I mean, but but this idea of retirement itself for a lot of people is like I work so hard, I just don't want to work anymore.
00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:21.920
Yeah.
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:22.320
Right.
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:30.159
As opposed to uh I, you know, worked so hard to make money, now let me do something that I feel like is purposeful.
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:31.199
You know?
00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:38.880
Um, and I think a person that is both devoid of community and purpose doesn't have a lot of reasons to live.
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:49.360
In the same way that this, you know, what we described as this placebo effect of just believing that you can overcome, believing that you can get better, it's like, well, I have this like reason to live.
00:40:49.599 --> 00:41:01.199
Um, I imagine that it stands to reason that that can be an intangible thing that could support extension extension of a lifespan when you look at like a large sample size.
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:02.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:05.519
Yeah, I mean, yeah, philosophically, totally, I totally agree with that.
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:17.679
That seems like something that that makes sense and would also be um like useful and would, I guess, you know, in my tier system, would go towards pushing the biological limit.
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:32.239
Like if you're if we're hitting all of our P's and Q's on all the ways and we're being healthy and you're doing everything right and you've got the right community and the right perspective, I would say that there's still some biological limit that's like a DNA-based thing.
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:32.639
Sure.
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:33.039
Right.
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:38.639
And it's like, you know, it's interesting how different animals um do immunity.
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:49.920
So, like rats, oftentimes they don't have their immune uh system is not one that is like really good at fighting off a bunch of diseases.
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:56.480
They kind of get sick and they just um sort of evolve ways to deal with being sick.
00:41:56.639 --> 00:41:58.800
I mean, they're gonna like die soon anyways, right?
00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:02.320
Like small, you're a small rodent, they don't live that long.
00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:04.480
They probably get eaten a lot, anyways.
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:09.199
Um, you know, and so you sort of see in their lifestyle this is reflected.
00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:13.280
They have lots of babies, they can have them relatively close, right?
00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:18.960
You could have some and then you could have some again a few months later, you could have some again, and they don't live that long.
00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:24.960
And so you don't need like a great immune system that's really um focused on keeping each one alive.
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:32.000
Maybe you get sick and you get a disease, and it's just like, well, let's just make this not feel that bad to, you know, it's not gonna stop me from reproducing.
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:32.639
Right?
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:49.599
Uh and you but then you compare that to um I don't know, something like an elephant, where an elephant actually needs to like each each elephant life is you know exponentially more important than each rat's life.
00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:53.360
Uh it takes they're pregnant for like multiple years, right?
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:55.679
So this is like a this huge investment.
00:42:55.840 --> 00:43:03.199
And so an animal like that, um, or like you know, also whales come to mind, which can leave to be like what hundreds of years old or something like that.
00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:11.840
It's like it's actually very critical for them to be able to fight off all so there's like a different type of immunity that that they sort of evolve.
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:23.840
Um and they would would or would not develop the abil like a rat, you wouldn't imagine that a rat um could have a heart that would be able to survive for 200 years.
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:25.039
It just wouldn't make any sense.
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:25.280
Yeah.
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:35.679
If you kept a rat completely healthy um and made everything perfect in its body so that it never aged but didn't do anything to its heart, it would eventually die because its heart went bad.
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:36.000
Right.
00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:36.480
Right.
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:48.559
And then uh, you know, you sort of think that think of any given animal having a body that something will start to fail at some point in time.
00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:51.440
And if that thing didn't start to fail, something else would.
00:43:51.599 --> 00:43:51.840
Yeah.
00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:52.320
Right?
00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:59.679
Like if it's you know, humans, like if my heart stays healthy, eventually like my kidneys won't start will stop working as well, or like some.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:01.760
You know, my brain will start to deteriorate.
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:11.199
Yeah, we we were not historically under any selective evolutionary pressure to survive in well into like into our hundreds.
00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:18.239
So nothing incentivizing that, nor do the people that successfully reproduce actually have a prerequisite that they survive that long.
00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:19.199
Exactly.
00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:21.039
So yeah, exactly.
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:24.960
So, you know, eventually our bodies give out.
00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:26.960
I just had a crazy idea though.
00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:30.800
Like I'm like, what if imagine this is kind of sci-fi.
00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:41.920
So imagine an alien civilization that like had super long lifespans that was trying to like turn like genetically engineer humans, but just through breeding, not through uh modifying our genome.
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:47.119
And they just took the ones that could breed the oldest and kept breeding them for thousands of years.
00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:47.440
Yeah.
00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:48.960
Like how far could we extend?
00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:50.239
Well, you know what you would do?
00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:59.920
What you would do is you would um retain uh specimens from it, doesn't actually matter how old they can breed.
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:06.639
If you just get their reproductive material when they're young, like keep it in a spur bank and know are gonna live long.
00:45:06.719 --> 00:45:07.280
Is that what you're saying?
00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:08.000
Doesn't matter.
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:16.079
Then you see who lives the longest, and you only fertilize the you only use the eggs of the longest women that live the longest.
00:45:16.239 --> 00:45:16.559
Yeah.
00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:21.519
And so it actually doesn't matter who can continue to like breed the longest.
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:23.039
Yeah, don't try to sit at home, by the way.
00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:27.360
It only matters who so this would be like a long, a long sort of thing.
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:31.840
And then you would take the so that I mean, you know, this would take you said these are long-lived aliens.
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:33.679
Yeah, it'd take tens of thousands of years to do that.
00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:44.239
This would be yeah, but what you you know, maybe you and you could like push it so that um humans could live longer and longer, but it would take an extremely long time to do like a selective thing.
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:55.679
I guess the quick way to do it would just see well, what are the specific gene variants that the oldest people had, and then you could like select for those and kind of like do it faster.
00:45:55.840 --> 00:45:56.159
Yeah.
00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:58.960
And yeah, that's uh that's pretty interesting.
00:45:59.119 --> 00:46:22.000
But like either way, it's it seems like there is some limit that each animal has for like where it's by it doesn't, it just doesn't make sense for your body to have uh keep to keep your liver in great shape if your lungs are going bad, you know, or if your if your brain's deteriorating, like it doesn't make sense to keep your brain tip top if your heart's giving out.
00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:31.039
Uh and so there's like whatever that number is, who know I don't know what that number is for people, but a hundred, hundred and ten, uh maybe it's like 120 or something.
00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:36.239
Maybe we're like leaving some money on the table because we're not as healthy as as we should be.
00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:52.480
Uh but and at that point, I just think the only thing that you can do to extend that is to get into the DNA and like on the cellular level change, you know, uh yeah, like your D yeah, your DNA.
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:53.599
That I agree with.
00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:56.719
That I think is is already about to start happening.
00:46:57.039 --> 00:46:57.599
I think so.
00:46:57.760 --> 00:47:00.960
I think there's gonna be a I think I think it's gonna start.
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:09.119
Um, I mean, yeah, we've talked before about CRISPR and kind of the applications of it and that kind of being a relatively low-cost approach.
00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:16.800
Um, but you know, like we were talking with uh first principal guys about this, and this might have came out already or not.
00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:27.840
But um we were talking to them about this ad that one of them saw on the subway for this organization that provides um basically their tagline was have your best baby.
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:51.199
And so they select certain eggs and and sperm cells from both mates that you know have these desirable, like they understand what uh genes link to specific genotypic or phenotypic traits, and they're able to basically say, okay, well, you can select for these things, and then you can select for these things of the range of possible you know genetic combinations that your sperm and egg cells can have.
00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:54.719
I think that's like the first low-hanging fruit step of it.
00:47:54.880 --> 00:48:00.000
But I think it's gonna evolve into more granular genetic engineering like CRISPR as well.
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:01.280
Yeah, yeah.
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:04.480
It's uh always good to see eugenics making a return.
00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:06.320
Oh, Jesus.
00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:13.280
Uh that's yeah, I mean, that's a crazy, that's like a crazy emerging phenomenon.
00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:22.559
Emerging phenomenon, but you know, um, you know, I I think about it this way, and you know, I don't want this to come off as me, you know, like saying that I'm necessarily for this at all.
00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:27.920
But I just think of this as again, if we take a philosophical step back and think about human nature, right?
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:32.480
As a parent, you want to provide the best possible life for your child, right?
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:34.000
Like that's kind of a fundamental thing.
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:34.159
Yeah.
00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:36.719
Get your kid in the best school you can get them in, yeah.
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:38.159
Give them the best food you can give them.
00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:48.239
If I know that there's uh people out here whose kids are superhuman that have like all the best, whatever all the best genes are for whatever the thing is that you think that whatever it is, it doesn't matter.
00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:50.320
If I can afford it, it makes no sense for me.
00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:57.360
It makes no sense for you to roll out you know, your backup unit to go play against the uh you know the superhuman.
00:48:57.440 --> 00:48:59.119
It's like this doesn't make sense.
00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:01.199
You're putting your kid at a disadvantage.
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:06.800
Now, one of the first things to overcome is how socially taboo this all sounds, right?
00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:18.639
Because, well, that just sounds like you're playing God or you're toying with genetics, and you know, there's still this whole uh, you know, um series of preconceived notions that the culture has about GMOs already.
00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:21.199
So, like a genetically modified human, that doesn't sound good.
00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:24.159
If GMOs are bad, genetically modified humans are terrible, right?
00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:41.760
But if you start to realize that there is this subsect of rich people that are all doing this and putting their kids at these huge disadvantages and now are gonna be generationally poised to be ahead, it stands to reason that the next generation of parents are gonna be like, nah, if I can afford to, I'm gonna give my kid this opportunity.
00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:45.840
Just like I would give my kid the best school I can and the best food that they can eat, you know?
00:49:46.079 --> 00:50:30.000
Yeah, you're this is now the literal creation of like this is like a divergence, it like an evolutionary divergence between I guess what humans are now, in the future, maybe what they were, and like this different sect of humans that you know are genetically, I want to say superior, uh, but not as a moral, not as like a moral judgment from me, but like literally if you wiped out all of the things that like congenital like diseases and defects, if you're literally making you know, p them have stronger tendons and stronger, then that feels like genetic superiority.
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:34.000
I think that's when we step into eugenics territory when we label it as superior.
00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:36.480
I think it's oh well just say they're just genetically different.
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:40.880
Genetically selected, I would say, is probably don't see how that's not genetics.
00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:47.360
I mean, you could call it whatever you want, you could call it Yeah, but I mean like because superior implies that they're objectively superior.
00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:51.280
And perhaps, you know, in some cases, having a stronger tendon is like isn't it?
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:52.639
How is that not superior?
00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:53.039
Right.
00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:54.400
I think that's a fair point.
00:50:54.639 --> 00:51:06.639
But I think again, there's other traits that we might describe, such as pigmentation of your skin, that some people who practice eugenics in the past would be like that's certain pigmentation is genetically superior, you know.
00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:16.559
Well, I think that that's the difference, is that like superiority, like based on on race, I think that almost always did come down to a moral judgment.
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:34.239
If you literally have cells that don't age and you're gonna live to be 500, and you are as strong as the strongest human that's ever lived, and you've got all of you know whatever genetics go to make you be able to have a super plastic brain that can process stuff faster.
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:42.639
Like I don't, you know, I don't know what those things are, but you would I just don't see how that's not that's literally those are selected genes.
00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:43.760
Well, what did you select?
00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:46.880
You selected the superior or the like the better or the worst ones?
00:51:47.039 --> 00:51:49.280
Well, you said you selected like the best ones.
00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:55.599
That is to me, that is like literally it's still eugenics.
00:51:56.239 --> 00:52:05.840
If you call if you didn't say that that was genetic superiority because we were just being nice, it's still eugenics, even if you don't call it that, in my opinion.
00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:27.760
I I would think it's yeah, I guess when I say selected, I think of selection in the turn in the same context as I think of natural selection, where it's like being short can be a you can be a superior member of your species as a short member of your species because you know you are able to scamper across the forest floor faster.
00:52:28.159 --> 00:52:34.159
Thinking about like the uh homo floresiensis where people evolved to be smor s smaller, right?
00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:42.480
And so s and and so that you know they were selected for that, not because it was intrinsically superior, but because it fitness it was best fit.
00:52:42.639 --> 00:52:44.639
It it made them more fit for the circumstance.
00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:47.519
And so I feel like, you know, that's a good point.
00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:48.159
That's a good point.
00:52:48.559 --> 00:52:50.800
So I think like that caveat is important.
00:52:50.960 --> 00:53:04.400
Although again, I think that this is an if we have the technology to do this, and there are places in the world where this is legally okay, I think it's inevitable that it's going to happen across humanity.
00:53:05.039 --> 00:53:06.320
Yeah, you think so?
00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:09.440
I just I guess I think it stands to reason.
00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:13.760
Yeah, I guess it's like if it's pop I'm still not even convinced.
00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:16.559
I'm not convinced on the longevity thing.
00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:20.800
I guess like I understand that like the designer baby thing.
00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:44.480
I understand like what things seem pop, but I guess it just feels to me like there's just no way that and this maybe is like a lack of my understanding or imagination that you can't that we know enough about the human genome to be able to go in and fix the things that would allow us to be able to live way longer.
00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:48.079
I guess, and I it just literally could be my own ignorance.
00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:55.760
It seems like such a complicated, like literally, we need all of your DNA, your cells need to all be different.
00:53:56.079 --> 00:54:01.519
Yeah, I mean, I I'd say the human genome is more complicated than the rat or mice genome, right?
00:54:01.679 --> 00:54:19.519
But the fact that there have been these emergent discoveries and the destruction of senescent cells in mice suggests that there may be a relatively simple answer, you know, where it's like you program cells in your entire body to just kill off senescent cells sooner, right?
00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:28.079
And so all the only cells that are in your body are fresh cells, you know, and like the overall efficiency of the system stays high, and then that can extend lifespan.
00:54:28.239 --> 00:54:29.199
Does that make sense?
00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:30.559
Yeah, yeah, it does make sense.
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:33.519
Yeah, so I I mean I I could see it being possible.
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:37.519
Again, I also am not a genealogist or a genetic researcher.
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:48.880
So yeah, you know, maybe we should uh we should try to get like a somebody who does this like aging research on because I'm curious about I just yeah, I mean, I don't I don't know anything, anything about it.
00:54:49.039 --> 00:54:49.599
Yeah.
00:54:49.840 --> 00:54:57.599
Um I remember we taught so you from a previous show, we the colour collab with um Science in the City.
00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:05.039
You were saying, you and uh Kalpana were saying that you y'all both would choose immortality if you could.
00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:06.880
I think that it's maddening.
00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:09.119
I think it would be maddening to live forever.
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:14.960
I also think it would be somewhat maddening to live, truly live forever.
00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:19.840
Um to be biologically immortal is an interesting concept to me.
00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:25.519
Um I don't feel like, you know, just just turning, just hitting my early 30s.
00:55:25.599 --> 00:55:32.400
I feel like I'm starting to hit experience some of the early effects of aging, and I'm like, I don't really like what it's early stuff, man.
00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:33.440
You know, just it's a little stuff.
00:55:33.679 --> 00:55:35.039
You still got a healthy hairline?
00:55:35.519 --> 00:55:36.639
Yeah, but you all right.
00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:43.119
I think the first thing that that really hit me, I was like, okay, I might be getting a little older, is like my ability to digest things.
00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:55.760
Like when I was like a teenager or even in my early 20s, I would just eat incredible amounts of food, super fast metabolism, yeah, and even like I think dairy products, you know, like just nothing would like bother, it would just stuff would just go through me.
00:55:55.840 --> 00:55:57.360
Nothing would like bother me or nothing.
00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:00.800
Like it wasn't, I didn't have to get particular about like my diet as much.
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:03.679
And now it's like I feel everything I eat.
00:56:03.920 --> 00:56:06.880
And that's like oh everyone was always talking like that when I was younger.
00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:08.960
And then I was like, I don't know what you guys are talking about.
00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:10.559
Like, it's just food, eat the food.
00:56:10.719 --> 00:56:12.880
And now I'm like, oh, that's what y'all meant.
00:56:13.119 --> 00:56:13.760
Okay, yeah.
00:56:14.079 --> 00:56:16.960
Um, so I was just like, oh, okay, it's more of this coming down the pipe.
00:56:17.119 --> 00:56:17.679
Yeah.
00:56:18.079 --> 00:56:29.280
I uh something that I remember um is uh when I started like with my the way that I was respond to alcohol changed a lot.
00:56:29.599 --> 00:56:40.639
When I was younger, you could like I would like could drink uh at a at a party or something like when I was in college and practice in the morning and like go hard and like be okay.
00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:53.599
And now something which is why I've like scaled way back on uh on drinking, I'll drink and then I'll I would feel like shit for like multiple days and not even like hung over, you know.
00:56:53.679 --> 00:56:59.599
I don't like it's not like I'm like pout throwing back shot after shot, but I just feel it was just like a haze.
00:56:59.920 --> 00:57:03.199
It just doesn't, I just don't feel like you're working the same.
00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:06.880
And yeah, it was like I'll put put this body this poison, I guess, in my body.
00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:12.639
And technically as you get older, you're just not as good as you're like past your prime.
00:57:12.960 --> 00:57:30.000
And so we have to do the we have to do these things like redefine socially what a prime is, and people have to like be like, I don't know why you think you're old at 35 when literally it's the number that we know that half the people died before for most of humanity.
00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:36.960
It's like I don't know why you think you're old, even though you've like outlived most humans that have ever lived already.
00:57:37.199 --> 00:57:43.199
Uh, but it's important because it's like well, because it's different now, like the rules, the rules have changed.
00:57:43.599 --> 00:57:44.639
Yeah, it's weird, man.
00:57:44.800 --> 00:57:53.519
I think that so you know, one challenge that uh you put for aging is these like microengineering challenges.
00:57:53.679 --> 00:57:55.199
Like, how do we come up with these things?
00:57:55.360 --> 00:58:10.639
But like another challenge is that we've never have ever had a selection pressure for aging healthily, for you know what psychologically is the bet the thing, the challenges that that people have to go through.
00:58:10.960 --> 00:58:12.719
And that's gonna, you know, that's a problem.
00:58:12.800 --> 00:58:18.880
And I think we already see that that it's a problem in a ch in a society that has a quick turnover.
00:58:19.199 --> 00:58:25.280
Why the I would say it's maladaptive that people last as long as they do now.
00:58:25.440 --> 00:58:32.320
The reason why I say that is because our government, you know, social socially humans accrue power over time.
00:58:32.639 --> 00:58:34.719
This is something I guess that's always been true.
00:58:35.039 --> 00:58:50.880
Well, our you know, Congress is the people who are making the laws, they're all otous shit, they're all boomers, and they are in my opinion, are all wrecking the country through like just normal human things like greed, um, you know, ignorance, whatever.
00:58:51.039 --> 00:58:53.440
They they you know do insider shit.
00:58:53.599 --> 00:59:03.840
They do, they just like do all these things, but society is like changing really fast, and they're just slow and cumbersome, they're like changing, so it's like we you need them to die, right?
00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:05.599
So I think we've talked about this before.
00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:08.480
It's like we all just want to live forever, yeah.
00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:17.760
Um, but a society cannot progress, you know, when there's a bunch of oh the when the old guard is running it.
00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:27.679
I think that is true as we understand old people today who have brains that lose neuroplasticity over time.
00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:36.719
But if you can imagine a person at 75 who has a brain with the neuroplasticity of a 20-year-old, I don't know if that would be the same.
00:59:36.880 --> 00:59:37.039
Hmm.
00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:37.840
You think so?
00:59:38.079 --> 00:59:38.639
I don't know.
00:59:38.719 --> 00:59:46.719
I I just can't say with certainty that a 70-year-old whose mind is as flexible and open, can learn new things, can pick up stuff as quick, you know?
00:59:46.960 --> 00:59:50.639
Yeah, but like that's like a fundamental trait that defines older people.
00:59:50.800 --> 00:59:52.400
Like they just can't pick up on things.
00:59:52.639 --> 00:59:59.039
But is that the is that the the issue with old people that their brains aren't plastic enough?
00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:16.800
Like, is it is it the is the reason why um boomer, well, you know, and this is just me thinking out loud and like asking myself the question is the reason why I'm saying a bunch of boomers running Congress is making the country worse, is it because their brains aren't plastic enough?
01:00:17.039 --> 01:00:38.639
Or is it because the exact people who um will desperately grasp for attention, power, and control will find themselves in the most powerful, most high status and um, you know, leverage controlled positions by the end of their lives.
01:00:38.800 --> 01:00:40.079
And they're not giving that up.
01:00:40.159 --> 01:00:53.119
And I don't know if that has anything to do with the like neuroplasticity, like the way that they feel about the changing attitudes uh to towards like LGBTQ community or something like that, I think is not why they're screwing up the country.
01:00:53.199 --> 01:01:04.000
I think it has a lot more to do with they're probably like they're probably like narcissistic psychopath uh psychopaths that are you you you see what I'm saying?
01:01:04.079 --> 01:01:19.119
Like, and we like select it's like this a accrual of social power, and you have all that and you're living like longer and longer, and it's like if you were if they were more plastic, they would just be doing they would be like doing exploitation better.
01:01:19.360 --> 01:01:20.079
Yeah, okay.
01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:36.719
Now, I um before I say this, I want to like I'm I'm not 100% sure about the actual data that supports this, but my understanding is that a lot of these psychological disorders that we've classified actually rear their heads in like our 30s or like later on in life.
01:01:36.880 --> 01:01:38.719
Like a lot of them, like um, what do you mean?
01:01:39.039 --> 01:01:49.760
Like some of these personality disorders, I think, um, you know, like borderline personality disorder, or again, I I don't want to speak with conviction about this because this is outside of my domain of expertise.
01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:56.880
But um, I believe that, yeah, like most of these things like are not as present in younger-minded people.
01:01:57.280 --> 01:01:59.760
You think younger-minded people are not more narcissistic?
01:01:59.920 --> 01:02:02.960
I would say that social media has made everybody more narcissistic.
01:02:03.280 --> 01:02:04.159
Self-centered, yeah.
01:02:04.320 --> 01:02:04.960
Yeah.
01:02:05.440 --> 01:02:07.679
Um I, yeah.
01:02:08.079 --> 01:02:25.360
I don't, yeah, I just and it's not that I guess it's just like at the there's like this a huge selection pressure by the end of people's lives, you know, the most powerful people are probably the people who are the most hungry for power there over that entire time.
01:02:25.599 --> 01:02:26.079
Sure.
01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:31.440
And that is never who you want running something that's dynamic.
01:02:32.079 --> 01:02:34.000
They're trying to get more power.
01:02:34.239 --> 01:02:34.559
Right.
01:02:34.639 --> 01:02:37.039
They're not trying to be agile, flexible, and adaptable.
01:02:37.119 --> 01:02:38.960
They're trying to include accumulate more power for themselves.
01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:39.280
Right.
01:02:39.360 --> 01:02:40.320
It's a control thing.
01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:44.159
It's very hard to control something that's like new and dynamic.
01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:50.559
And if anything, all they you know, they're gonna want to guide that thing into a way that can be more powerful for them.
01:02:50.800 --> 01:02:53.679
So it's like we need, we need people.
01:02:53.920 --> 01:02:56.159
Like that's a question that that doesn't come up.
01:02:56.239 --> 01:02:58.000
Like, we need people to die.
01:02:58.320 --> 01:02:59.920
We need people to not live forever.
01:03:00.079 --> 01:03:04.320
I don't want Elon Musk and Sam Altman and all the tech CEOs.
01:03:04.400 --> 01:03:05.679
I don't want them to live forever.
01:03:05.840 --> 01:03:10.800
I don't want them to be to like I don't want us to like figure out aging and then them they just might.
01:03:12.400 --> 01:03:12.960
I don't want that.
01:03:13.039 --> 01:03:19.679
I think that and it's not not like personally, you know, I don't think that they've I don't have like ill feelings toward them.
01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:30.320
I don't think that or I don't think that society ever pro progresses, ever, if the old people and the old ideas don't die.
01:03:32.559 --> 01:03:36.400
I think I definitely think the old ideas have to evolve.
01:03:37.039 --> 01:03:39.119
I guess death of those ideas.
01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:42.960
I feel like death and evolution can be used interchangeably in this context.
01:03:43.440 --> 01:03:45.280
There's uh I'm gonna look up this quote.
01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:49.119
It's a quote about um old physicists.
01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:50.559
Uh yeah.
01:03:50.800 --> 01:03:52.239
So just give me a second.
01:03:52.400 --> 01:04:04.719
There's a there's this quote from Max Planck, uh sort of a famous physicist, um, highly influential, very, very important in uh the foundation of our physics understanding.
01:04:05.039 --> 01:04:18.639
A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that's familiar with it.
01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:36.719
And this is, you know, you think about this sort of what I'll call the golden era of physics, where all these discoveries and all these foundational realizations and um equations are being derived that like sort of bolster up everything that we know about physics now.
01:04:36.960 --> 01:04:49.679
And it's like you don't, you know, it's not it's not the hard scientific evidence that ushers in um you know, like this new understanding and acceptance of things, it's that old people die.
01:04:49.840 --> 01:04:59.039
And like obviously people accept new scientific evidence, and so you know, it's there's a little hyp hyperbole there, but even you know, a physicist.
01:04:59.119 --> 01:05:11.519
This is a guy who's going up against other scientists, and he's like, no, it's not that these are the most eloquent things, it's that these old people are dying, new people are coming up, and they learn the new ideas.
01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:35.760
And I just feel like that's there's something, yeah, like there's something about the way that we live now, and I think the way that probably humans lived for so long that you know, as you got older, things weren't always drastically changing, and you needed to conserve when you figure when you figure out something that works, you need to conserve it.
01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:39.360
And we were just like in this crazy dynamic environment.
01:05:39.599 --> 01:05:44.239
And no, like now you need to not conserve anything because things are changing so fast.
01:05:44.400 --> 01:05:47.679
You need to, you know, we have these old laws, and it's weird.
01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:59.760
Like we we like can't get rid of old laws usually, but you can like add amendment, you can like you like add things on to fix longer and longer laws, so you just get this like longer and longer and longer list of laws, and it's where.
01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:05.679
You have some things that are just completely bastardized at this point, like the right to bear arms.
01:06:05.920 --> 01:06:12.239
It's like that was for they just wanted people to be able to have guns at a time where everybody had muskets.
01:06:12.400 --> 01:06:16.800
And it was like, well, the government's just not gonna come in with their muskets and take control of everything.
01:06:16.960 --> 01:06:19.119
The people have their muskets, it's fair.
01:06:19.280 --> 01:06:26.639
But you know, the government now has nuclear bombs, the government has drones, the government has things that you and I cannot have and cannot get.
01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:32.079
So if they wanted to turn that on us, what do we, you know, how am I gonna fight back?
01:06:32.159 --> 01:06:38.880
You're gonna fight back with like a gun that you bought at Walmart or something, and so it's like it's just not it's not relevant anymore.
01:06:39.199 --> 01:06:51.920
Um, and you know, the laws are sort of like a a concrete example of this, but I think the same thing just happens with with people, like the new like we probably need to redo our our bill of rights.
01:06:52.239 --> 01:06:54.800
Yeah, yeah, I 100% agree with that.
01:06:55.039 --> 01:07:02.320
Um, I think that perhaps the next generation of tools and people can actually address these things more efficiently, because you're right.
01:07:02.480 --> 01:07:04.079
Yeah, if we die, we have to die.
01:07:04.239 --> 01:07:08.719
But we don't specifically You said the next generation of tools and people, yeah.
01:07:09.519 --> 01:07:13.760
Meaning us, we're not in like by and large, we're not in those positions to make decisions.
01:07:14.000 --> 01:07:18.239
Yeah, because we keep extending the age that we were extending.
01:07:18.559 --> 01:07:21.440
You're extending their lifespans, they need to die.
01:07:21.519 --> 01:07:22.719
Yeah, is that what you're saying?
01:07:22.960 --> 01:07:33.280
I'm saying that I think that we all think that we're so clever, and you and I think that when we get older, we'll be different than the old people.
01:07:33.519 --> 01:07:35.519
Oh, yeah, I don't think I don't necessarily think so.
01:07:35.760 --> 01:07:36.000
Right.
01:07:36.079 --> 01:07:40.239
Well, you yeah, you know, I'm I guess I'm like, I'm kind of like I'm speaking for everybody, right?
01:07:40.320 --> 01:07:48.400
Like we all think that we have the right ideas and that old people don't get it, and that's what the old people thought when they were young about the old people before them.
01:07:48.639 --> 01:07:53.760
And the only reason that things kind of get to progress is because the old people fall out of power.
01:07:54.079 --> 01:07:57.679
But we as we keep extending that that age, right?
01:07:57.760 --> 01:08:05.840
And people are accrue accrue more and more social power and financial power and influence and all these things, then you you like you hold back society.
01:08:05.920 --> 01:08:08.400
And I feel like people feel like that, you know.
01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:12.880
Um, other like our system is not working for a lot of people, and people feel that.
01:08:13.039 --> 01:08:24.000
People understand that people know that it's like what back in the day, a man that didn't even go to college could have a job, just a normal job at a factory, right?
01:08:24.399 --> 01:08:36.319
Do do like honest work and then live this super dishonest lifestyle where like you had a family in this town and this town off of like a milkman's salary, and you had all these families, you can't do that.
01:08:36.560 --> 01:08:45.039
You go to you if you get a I mean, you get a degree now and you're in debt from getting the degree, and you can't even find a job that could like pay that back quickly.
01:08:45.119 --> 01:08:47.520
It's like something that happens over a super long time.
01:08:47.680 --> 01:08:51.039
So it's like we live in a it's just super unrealistic.
01:08:51.520 --> 01:08:52.159
Yeah.
01:08:52.640 --> 01:09:02.159
I agree, I agree, but I think this is actually all supporting evidence that we should definitely stay curious and not nosy.
01:09:02.399 --> 01:09:03.039
You think so?
01:09:03.359 --> 01:09:04.800
No, I just I just made that up.
01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:05.600
Oh, okay.
01:09:05.760 --> 01:09:06.079
Yeah.
01:09:06.319 --> 01:09:08.399
I would say I don't know.
01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:11.279
I definitely agree that we should stay curious.
01:09:11.680 --> 01:09:17.439
I don't know how I don't know if that was in support of staying curious, though.
01:09:17.680 --> 01:09:22.800
Well, I think on that note, we should let everybody know that, as always, stay curious.
01:09:23.119 --> 01:09:23.520
Peace.
01:09:23.680 --> 01:09:24.000
Peace.
