Crossover episode: Previewing Astros-Tigers with Tiger Territory

00:00:05
Speaker 1: And welcome into a special crossover episode of Tiger Territory and Crushed Dave in Hagen with me as always and joining us Chandler underscore Rome for the Athletic and of course is the host of crut City here on Ballot Territory. What's up, guys, how are we doing?
00:00:27
Speaker 2: What's up?
00:00:27
Speaker 3: Karen? How are you? And Cody? I guess how are you?
00:00:31
Speaker 4: I'm doing good. We are getting ready for the Tigers to play the Astros, which if you're listening to this, I assume you already know, but a lot of connections. So we're about to break it down.
00:00:42
Speaker 3: Have the Tigers and the Astros played recently?
00:00:44
Speaker 4: Has that been a I think there was a playoff series. I think Tiger's president of Baseball Operations went out of his way to mention it when they didn't get Alex Bregman that they just beat a team that had Alex Bregman, not that they were salty at all.
00:01:01
Speaker 1: That's a good callback, Cody, because when when Scott said that, I was like, it was kind of like like Scott Harris, you know, for the Crush City listeners, president of Baseball Operations for the Tigers, like goes out of his way to just like not show personality, and that was clearly him like kind of putting a little bit of like the competitive cap on and so long time listeners and viewers of Scott Harris press conferences. God bless all of you that do that. Uh where I think it kind of stood out a little bit. It was like like going against the company line, and it was rather petty, if we're being honest. So that's how that's so so Chandler, maybe we should just start right there. That's how the Tigers reacted to, you know, losing out on the Bregman sweepstakes. Obviously the timeline was a lot different for the Astros, But how did the organization handle handle that aspect of the off season.
00:01:52
Speaker 3: Well, I mean they've been through it so many times before, right. They let Carlos Correa walk, they let George Springer walk, they let get Cole walk, they let all the old Cole wasn't homegrown, but they let all these homegrown superstars walk. And I think anyone with a brain went into last offseason like understanding that the Ashers weren't going to bring Alex Bregman back. It would have taken something that this that Jim Crane and the owner just just doesn't do it would have taken the sort of contract, the sort of massive average annual value that he has been reluctant to give. The weird thing is the contract Bregman ended up getting is more suitable and more amenable to things that the Ashers have done. Like they are they are okay with doing the short term, big AAV deals. But you know, Jim Crane even said this on an opening day, like they never changed their offer. They offered him six years for one hundred and fifty six million dollars at the beginning of the off season and they never budged. And to me, that's kind of confounding, just given especially when if Scott Morris made it known that like Alex Bregman would take a shorter term deal with a huge AAV. I'm not sure why they didn't, you know, all their offer. But then again, like at that point when Bregman signed, they had Christian Walker on the roster, they had Esock Paradus on the roster, like it wouldn't have that there wasn't a fit for him, that Alex Bregman's a guy that you make a fit for. They would have made Esock paradisul Play second, which would have been a hilarious disaster. But yeah, I mean, there wasn't a ton of like shock. There wasn't a ton of like petty like oh my goodness, I can't like they've they've just been through this so many times that I think they were just going all right, like who's next, Like next, next man up, let's do it again.
00:03:31
Speaker 1: You think he's gonna opt out? Cody and I have debated this.
00:03:34
Speaker 3: You think, I mean that sort of contract, like it kind of conditions itself to opting out. I think I honestly, I think he may sign an extension with the Red Sox. Like obviously, I don't think it happened. I don't think it happens in season, but like I think he really likes it there. I know he and Alex Corey get along very well. And then I mean probably the deciding factor. You look at the ballpark. I mean I've already the few home runs I've seen. I've gone look up on stackcast like it's been out in three of thirty ballparks, Dike and Park, Dike and Parkiel Park. I wonder why.
00:04:08
Speaker 4: Chandler, he said the bar wasn't a factor in his decision.
00:04:11
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, sure, yeah, but I think I mean he's he'd be if he keeps this up. I mean he's He's had an incredible start to his season, which is not many, which is not what you can say normally about Alex Bregman. He's a chronically slow starter. So to see him have the start that he's had, if he keeps that up, like it's a no brainer that he's going to opt out and he'll probably get the deal next off season that he thought he was going to get up this offseason, or that he could have had from the Tigers.
00:04:40
Speaker 4: Oddly enough, the Tigers aren't missing Alex Bregman that much right now. Now he's hitting three nineteen with five home runs. He'd still look pretty nice in this lineup. He'd probably make you feel a little bit better about the sustainability to use the the S word that's popular, not popular on our podcast of the Tigers success. But yeah, right now, they don't need him. When you have Zach McKinstry, and you know Howvey Bay is playing all over the diamond, why would you want to commit six years in one hundred and eighty one million.
00:05:12
Speaker 3: But we can talk about bregman OLLI Well, but is this going to are we going to corner the market this week on infielders playing the outfield between Hobby and Altuve and left and then Cam Smith, who's a third baseman's playing right field for them, Like it's uh, there's a lot of a lot of cross pollination here, a lot of you know, just changing positions for the hell of it. So since he brought it up for our Tigers listener, just how does Jose Ltve look in the outfield? So he looks fine. I mean, he's not going to win a Gold Glove. He's probably not even going to be average. The whole the whole reason the Astros did this was to get him away from most of the action. Like they're well aware that he's going to get very balls hit to him in left field, especially with a rotation that at the top has fromer Bell does in Hunter Brown, both of whom get a ton of ground balls. They know that they can hide him out there. I don't have his chances in front of me, but for a while there he was like bottom third in the league and left field chances. So they they're okay with the fact that they can just kind of put him out there. He can run around like he's athletic enough. He's about turn thirty five, but he's athletic enough, Like he runs balls down in the gap. Okay, he's got good instincts, he's got good awareness. All of his troubles have honestly been him getting in his own head because like he doesn't have a good throwing arm. He has one of the weakest arms on the infield last year, in the past couple of years, his arm is not good and teams are running on him a ton. Christian Basquez took an extra base on him in Minnesota to start the season, so he knows that his arm is not good. The ashers are doing a lot to help mitigate that. Jeremy Panna, the shortstop, is the cutoff man, and they're positioning him a lot deeper. So how two vays throws aren't as long and pain You can get the ball in his hands quicker, but the gass that you've seen him make are as he's like trying to take the ball out of his glove to throw. He's rushing the process. He thinks he's got to be so perfect and get it out so quick that instead of the two you saw in spring training that went viral, where him dropping a fly ball with a runner on third base in less than two outs that he knew the runner was going to tag and he had it and he said, I got to get this ball out and I got to go. In Minnesota, coincidentally, he dropped a ball when it wasn't even it was a flyball that he caught, but again there was a runner that was going to take an extra base on him. He went to do the glove to hand transfer and just drop the ball. That's been the big Like he's catching all the routine flyballs hit to him. He can run down some stuff in the gap. He's more athletic than you think when you look at him. But he's not gonna win a go glove out there. But the whole point was they got him out of the middle of the action and Cody remember this like the thing that's set up the the inning that won the Tigers at Wildcard Series. Like Ryan Presley to start that eighth inning, got a routine ground ball just kind of up the middle that an average second baseman gets to ozel two. They couldn't get to it. He didn't have much range. It sneaks through and then as we saw kind of all hell broke loose and that was I'm not gonna say that was the tipping point. That's why they did it. They've been thinking about doing this for a couple of years. But it's kind of accentuates kind of how in the middle of everything he was at second base. They didn't want that anymore.
00:08:34
Speaker 1: What about his attitude about it.
00:08:36
Speaker 3: Oh, he loves it. He is. This is as energized as I have seen him. I've covered him for eight years. This is as energized as I've ever seen spring training. Like he was giddy, like he was like he was first couple days he was out there, like he he would lead like the outfielders back from from drills and he go oh, outfielders coming through, outfielders coming through, and like he's like it's re energized him. I think for two reasons. One because he wants to prove people wrong, Like he he understands that there is a lot of skepticism out there. Can he do this? Like is this the right move? And then also like he doesn't want to embarrass himself either, So he's gonna go out there and work his tail off like this is as engaged and as diligent as I've seen him doing really anything since I've started covering him. And I you know, I think that has a little bit of hand in why his second base metrics declined so much, because, let's face it, like I mean, I don't know if Miguel Cabrerac thought this way, but like veteran players that do the same thing for so long, like Altuve was going to fifteen spring trainings and taking grand ball at the second base and like it becomes monotonous, it becomes like it's devoid of any like intrigue or joy. And I think this giving him something new and giving him something new to do definitely re energy. He's all in on this and he loves me.
00:09:57
Speaker 1: I'll ask Cody the Javier Bayaz aspect of this. After a word from our sponsors.
00:10:06
Speaker 3: Me out to my t A fan duel sports now.
00:10:11
Speaker 4: Work, Yeah, blatch me, Spinga and RBIs.
00:10:15
Speaker 3: I'm just glad they have the ports root road for the Tigers.
00:10:23
Speaker 5: On fan duel.
00:10:24
Speaker 3: Sports that work the Tiger's gags on Tiger's gag then the.
00:10:33
Speaker 1: Stream so crush any people. That's our life right now. That's that's a glorious tune that we got and uh, it will be in your head now like it's been in Cody and I his head for the better part of the great deal though not against it. But it's a catchy tune. That's how you know they did a good job, Cody the You know he talked about Altova's enthusiasm. That's the same thing with Hobbyer boys, is it not?
00:10:58
Speaker 4: That sounded so familiar. It was kind of crazy. Tandler said, the most engaged I've seen ose L TV is easily the most engaged we've seen Hobby by it as we've talked about it a little bit before, but over the past week we've seen him a lot more in center field and he's looked kind of natural, Like I think he's looked as good, if not better than our guy, Ryan Kreidler. He's having fun, he's still being productive at the plate. In reality, he's not hit for any power. He doesn't have a home run yet. He's probably not going to be valuable in terms of war unless the power picks up. But just seeing him contribute, he's still continuing to chase at the lowest rate of his entire career. He's doing those hobby things that you know. When the Tigers signed him, he was kind of known for tagging up to second on a fly ball to right field, finding ways to get the extra base, like just doing kind of creative things, having a ton of fun. This is a more engaged version of Javier Bayas. I don't know if that will continue, but I think playing different positions has been a big part of it. I think maybe the impact of Glabor Torrez, who he's close with, has helped. And I think just a certain level of maybe acceptance that, you know what, he's not a superstar anymore, so you can either go one way. You can sit there and be miserable, or you can find a way to help the team win. I think Javier Bias likes winning a lot. And right now the Tigers are eighteen and ten, they have the best record in the American League. That probably does not hurt the level of engagement coming from hobby right now. Yeah.
00:12:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, himself a good weekend too, several key hits, RBI and all that stuff. So it is one of the things that we've always said, Chandler, is that like the with the hobby or bayas aspect is that at a certain point, you just gotta have to forget the contract, forget the years, forget the money, and just kind of reset what your expectations are, like how you feel, because if you're gonna just going to go based on that six for one eighty that he signed, like he's always gonna be miserable. But if you can kind of focus on like these things that he's doing and like his like the intangible stuff that he brings, you find yourself a lot better suited to uh to deal with like what is obviously a disappointment, you know, dollars to production. I don't know if there's anything like that on the Astros over the past couple of years that you can relate to, but but that's that. That's our message in regards to the hobby or hobby aspect on the Tigers.
00:13:32
Speaker 3: I mean, the Astro said jose A Brady on their team for a year and a half that didn't work out near as well as the hobby buys. It seems like hobbies that they've at least got Hobby to a place where like he can contribute some value, like he does things other than hit, like he can play deef like he's he's still a really good short He's still graades out excellent shortstop right like even though he's in center fish.
00:13:53
Speaker 4: Been slightly negative, still very good.
00:13:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, like the thing with Hose Brady, Like Jose Brady was signed to hit and he couldn't do that, and so once that he couldn't do that, they released him with a year and a half and almost thirty million dollars left on his deal. So but yeah, like I think it is and that speaks well to AJ Hinch to finding ways to extract value out of a player that is very clearly not the player that they signed is very clearly not. This is not gone the way that they envisioned. But it's a credit to AJ for like keeping Like I presume Hobby is not a clubhouse cancer. I presume he's a positive at least somewhat of a positive influence like that. That takes a lot, And it takes a lot to keep a guy like that engaged. A guy that could because again he's got one hundred and eighty million dollars in his back pocket, he could very easily just disengage and not want to be a part of anything. And that's a credit to him. It's a credit to Aj, and it's a credit to a lot of different people for finding ways that he can contribute even if he's not the Hobby bayas of four or five years ago.
00:14:56
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we're going to talk about Aj Hinch a little more in a minute, but I want to go back. Did you say there was thirty plus million dollars on a Braves contract?
00:15:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, so he signed. It was three years, fifty eight and a half million dollars and he got released about two months into the second year of the deal, So right about third.
00:15:14
Speaker 4: There's still seventy three million on the Hobby deal. But there's a picture a pitcher in Kintamaida only making ten million and who's pitching about once a week right now that the Tigers are clinging on too. So there is some precedent we talked about. There's not a lot of precedent for teams eating money. But if you want an example, Jose Brave is a pretty good one.
00:15:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, that did not That did not go well. They're paying right now. They are paying hose A Brave nineteen and a half million dollars not to play first base, and they are paying Christian Walker twenty million dollars to play first base. You like to gyuess Christian Walker's ops at the moment, I got it eighty Uh, try six hundred, he's a six hundred ops. He's hit He's hitting one eighty nine with thirty four striker else and he hit clean up. And they played twenty seven games, hit clean up in about twenty of them. So they've got a lot of money and a lot of first basemen that aren't doing anything for them.
00:16:09
Speaker 4: I definitely didn't want the Tigers saying Christian Walker couldn't have been me.
00:16:13
Speaker 1: I don't know on it all off season, leading into the off season, just.
00:16:17
Speaker 4: Didn't have Why would you do that when you have Spencer, That's what I said.
00:16:22
Speaker 1: Big, big Torque guy Cody Well.
00:16:25
Speaker 2: Uh.
00:16:25
Speaker 1: The another connection that these two teams have is and we briefly mentioned him in regards to the moves around the Bregmann decision, and that was Isach Bretz, who was a very well liked prospect in the Tigers system coming up, and could you say it was like rushed a little bit there at the end. He makes his debut in the COVID year and he's a guy that at the time was kind of like without a position, you know, like we were having conversations Chandler, It's like you mentioned him at second base, like we were having conversations about a J. Hinchbying, like why can he plays second base? Until he shows us that he can't play second base, you know, all of us kind of knowing at the time that that wasn't necessarily the most realistic thing. He goes in a twenty twenty two trade to Tampa Bay for Austin Meadows, and that obviously did not work out for the Tigers for mainly off the field reasons. With Austin he went through his mental health situation there by all Kouscodie correctly from wrong. Seems like he's doing well, so that's great. But the trade, the baseball trade, was a lopside one in favor of the Rays. And now a couple stops later, Escak is now a member of the Astros. So what's the Esach Pardes experience like right now, Chandler.
00:17:42
Speaker 3: Well, it's important though. The Ashers have been trying to get estoc Paratis on their team for about a year now. They were after him very hard at the trade deadline last year when he ended up going from the Rays to the Cubs. They tried very hard to get him out. He would have played first base in that situation because Asher, Alex Bregman Jose Brady was on the beach somewhere, so Estoc Paradas would have played first. But the reason they want him is pretty obvious. He pulls the ball more than any qualified hitter in baseball. The Astros have a very short porch in left field at Dykin Park, the Crawford boxes, and Estcock paradis is going to hit a lot of home runs into there. I think he's at four home runs this season and every single one of them has been pulled into the Crawford boxes. He is perfect for the ballpark. But beyond that, there's two other things that There's one main other thing that they wanted him for, and you guys saw it watching him play there. He takes one hell of it at batman like sees so many pitches. His strike zone judgment is so good. The fact that and that's one thing the Ashers didn't have last year, Like they saw the fewest pitches per played appearance of any team in baseball. Last year, they chased more than any team in baseball. They swung more than any team in baseball last year, so they went into this offseason and they wanted guys like him, and Christian Walker fits into that category.
00:19:03
Speaker 4: Two.
00:19:03
Speaker 3: He's not near as a prolific added as Paradus, but both of them see a lot of pitches, both of them don't strike out a ton, both of them have great strike zone judgments, swing at ball, swing at strikes on, swing at ball, things like that. So that's what they really really covet in nisak Paradis. And I mean we saw it in the first, uh the first series against the Mets, three game series, he saw sixty five pitches and twelve plate appearances, and everyone in the Asher's clubhouse was just like mouth a gape, like I can't watch that. I was like, yeah, me neither, because I watched you guys play last year and it was if you guys saw sixty five pitches in like seven innings, it was a lot. And he saw sixty five pitches and twelve plate appearances. The interesting thing is he's been better at third base than I thought he would be. Like he's not He's not Bregmant, obviously, no one's Bregmant. Like he's he's not going to be that, he's not gonna win a Gold Glove. But Tony Paris Chica, who is the Asher's new third base coach, used to be with the d Backs for a while. He's on field instructor. He's really worked with Paradus on. Listening to him talk, it sounds like, and I haven't gone back and dissected all of eastcac paratuses in field videos, but it sounds like in the past when he would go for balls, his arms would kind of be out, like there would be a lot of like extraneous movements, like unneeded movement, and it would limit his range. And they've got him now compact as he takes his first step, and the range is better. Like, look, it's not great. Eastcoc Paradus is not Range is not the first thing I would say when I start talking about him. But it's been better than I thought. It's pleasantly surprised a lot of people all around. Honestly, he has been a pleasant They knew what they were getting in him, but I think he's exceeded a lot of their expectations with some of the stuff that maybe they thought he would, you know, fall short of or subs to do some work on.
00:20:52
Speaker 1: All right, we'll talk about the differences between the last time these two teams met and and this week after word from ours Todd Father.
00:21:03
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00:22:05
Speaker 4: All right, I just pulled up, hold on, I just pulled up Eastside Paratus spray Shart from twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. Sometimes you wonder, like, did the Tigers give up on him a little too soon? I mean, obviously the trade for Meadows kind of made sense. I think a different timeline if the front office wasn't under pressure, if Alavila wasn't under pressure to keep his job, they probably don't make that move. But that's the circumstance it was. Anyway, he had two home runs and like one hundred and thirty nine plate appearances. You just put at the overlay on on Dyke in Park and he would have had like seven. So everything maybe could have been different if you weren't playing in America. But remember there, does he just have warning trek power? Like is he's just not strong enough?
00:22:47
Speaker 3: He's not the right ballpark. Alex Preignan los pregnant, Alex Bregman agrees, Alex Bregmant loves Comerica.
00:22:55
Speaker 1: Park, thinks himself playing there. You know, absolutely.
00:22:58
Speaker 4: I think it's super great.
00:23:01
Speaker 1: All right, So we were talking about like what we were going to talk about on this episode prior to you know, pressing record, and Chandler said, well, let's talk about the team's difference. And I immediately had an anecdote from when I was at the Wildcard Series last year and and it'll be quick a couple of minutes, but I was in the concess not the concession, the gift shop, trying to get some souvenirs ones behind me that hat right there for the Wildcard Series. And there's this kid. Se mind, these are day games. This guy is missing school. This kid comes up to me, he's probably like twelve years old, and he's like, you know you're gonna lose, right. I was like, I'm obviously not going to like get like a smack Todd, you know, staying with like a twelve year old. But like I was like, oh yeah you think. So He's like, yeah, all you guys got his school bowl he went yesterday, so you got nothing. I was like, all right, well, you know, we'll see what happens, you know that confidence. Oh yeah, very Comford's like, well, we'll see what happens. And you know went on my merry way. Well, the difference is that kid cannot say that now because the Tiger's starting real rotation, like the whole pitching chaos thing is not a thing right now. The Tigers starting rotation leaves the American League in era with a cool two point eight to nine. So the difference is that the Astros are not gonna see one Terek Schooble, But there is no reprieve in the Tigers starting rotation as currently constructed with with Flarity and job and Myze and Resulson like that, you're up against every single time you come against the Cup against the Tigers, Whereas last year you just kind of, you know, the chaos thing was something you had to deal with. Now you gotta deal with like a top notch rotation, one of the best in baseball, if not the best.
00:24:38
Speaker 4: Yeah, Tigers are the only team right now with four starters with sub three eras. The Astros are gonna dodge Schooball who pitched Sunday and was pretty dominant, but they'll see Jack Flaherty, they'll see Resulson, And if you're an Astros fan, I think it's gonna be fun to watch Jackson Job. Whether you win or lose, Job's got some pretty electric stuff. One of those guys just worth buying take to go watch, I think.
00:25:02
Speaker 3: And the lineup that they face has the fifth lowest OPS in baseball. If there's one thing that is just frustrating the ever living hell out of Astros fans and said that they can't hit right now there, it's it's been a tough watch for their life. And the interesting thing is via bats look so much better like everything we just talked about about, how they chased too much last year, they swung too much, they they didn't see a lot of pitches like they have improved in all of those areas, Like if you watch them, like if you watch them day in and day out, they're at bats are a lot better. They're just not getting results or not getting any production. They entered today as one of three teams without twenty home runs and hit already. Jordan Alvarez did hit a home run today to give them twenty in their twenty seventh game of the year. They Christian Walker, as we just talked about, has not been good. Yianer Diaz has a four ninety nine OPS at the moment. That is not a typos Jordon Alvarez has been. It's been a slow start for him, but part of that is because he's had Christian Walker and Yinor Diaz hitting behind him most of the time, and no one's gonna give Jordon Alvarez any pitches to hit with those two guys scuffling behind him. So it's it's one. It's gonna be one of these things where like they are running up the Tigers are running up against the lineup you want to run up against, because right now they are all out of sorts. It's been tough to watch. But the thing that they do do they put the ball in play. They're not going to strike out a bunch, and they are running the bases a lot more aggressively now. Part of it is because I think they understand that runs are more difficult to come by. So you're seeing a lot more first to thirds, you're seeing a lot more, you know, second to home on singles, you're seeing a lot more just kind of pushing the envelope just to create runs because right now they're not hitting the battle of the ballpark, they're not hitting doubles, they're not slugging. This is a tough matchup for the Astros, because this is if one thing has held them back all year, it's been this line.
00:27:03
Speaker 1: Still scouring a plus eleven run differential, which you know is there's not as many teams in the American League that are in the green there as you would think. The Tigers currently are plus forty two with their eighteen and ten record, But like they're you know, the Astros are you get the most up to date, they are a half game back of the Rangers, who are by the way lost in a crazy way today in case anybody didn't see that, or minus fifteen run differential, So like they gotta be doing something right. Chandler. They they're like the old Manufacturer. We've heard this stuff a lot, Cody and I over the years. The whole manufacturer runs thing and runs are out of premium. The Tigers are still doing all those things. It just they they hit the ball better too. But like they must be doing something right with the record that and where they're sitting and run differential was.
00:27:50
Speaker 3: I mean, they have an outlier game and they beat the Angels fourteen to three in a game earlier this so that that's the outlier game that they have they The thing is they're pitching it so well that they're never going to get blown out. They're there's not going to be a boat race game that they are the losers of because they have the fourth lowest era in baseball right now. They're starting pitching has been very, very good. Their bullpen, Josh Hater has been maybe the best reliever in baseball, if not the best, the second best. They're pitching it so well that they're staying in all these close games. It's just they're not scoring a ton of runs and they're not giving a ton of support. I am sad that the Tigers are going to miss both from er Valdez and Hunter Brown. I can't extract another Hunter Brown Detroit story. I've already done that four different times of him pitching it either against the Tigers at America Park something like that. But I don't know if Detroit people know this, but Hunter Brown is like low key, like the best pitcher in baseball.
00:28:46
Speaker 4: Now.
00:28:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk about Hunter Brown because again, like we like, this is not something even Cody and I bring up just like as.
00:28:52
Speaker 4: A I think, is he still spinning his off seasons in Detroit?
00:28:57
Speaker 3: He is?
00:28:57
Speaker 4: Yeah, so he's he He's zero current members of the Detroit Tigers do that. The best player who spends their offseason in Detroit is a member of the Houston as.
00:29:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, he spends his off seasons in Detroit because he trains at two sp in downtown Detroit, where I think a lot of you know, ballplayers trained, But like he and his trainer have this great partnership that they didn't want to break. But yeah, he is. He has completely revolutionized his career. He actually pitched at coaufmin Stadium today and it was there last year in April where he gave up nine hits and nine runs and eleven hits and two thirds of an inning last year at Kaufman Sam It's, if not the worst start in Major League Baseball history, it's top five. The Astros were like, had plans to demote him to the minor leagues like the next week, and I think there was an injury or something, so he stayed on the roster, made another start, and then on May fifth, he started throwing a sinker. The sinker is not a very good pitch, but it was something he needed to in on right handed hitters to stop right handed hitters from diving out and getting everything over the over the plate. And since he's added that sinker on May fifth, he has the lowest ERA of any starting pitcher in baseball. And that's lower than Terrek Schooble, It's lower than Max Freed, it's lower than Chrissale. Like he has now put together two hundred innings worth of league leading ERA ball. And to watch him blossom, to watch the confidence grow has been has been something he's throwing. He is sitting ninety seven now and throwing ninety nine like with regularity, Like he threw his change up, like he barely throws his change up. There's change up like fifteen times saying got five strikeouts on it. The sinker has gotten better. The sinker is now magically ninety seven like he is. He is becoming like appointment television, like you like you figure out on the schedule. It's kind of like Scooble, like you figure out on the schedule when School's pitching or Whin Brown's pitching, and you set aside kind of your day because you want to watch them pitch. He is. He's been incredible. It's been really cool to watch him because I mean, I've covered him from day one, So it's cool. It's been cool to watch him kind of blossom and become what he's become. He went in He was a fifth round pick in twenty nineteen out of Wayne State, and I was just curious, like, did the Tigers like pass on him? Did the Tigers like did that draft like not work out for the Tigers? Could they have gotten Hunter Brown at some point? I mean, I'm looking at it now. They drafted Riley Green, Ryan Kreidler, and Bo Briskey in that draft and Carry Carpenter, So they did something right in that draft, but Hunter Brown was there.
00:31:31
Speaker 4: If they were, those were different times, Chandler.
00:31:36
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean it took the Astro as a team that was usually very good at drafting. I mean, he slipped to the fifth round and the scout that actually found him his signing scout, Hunter Brown was his first draft pick ever signed and the only reason he found him is he was at a D two tournament where Wayne State was. He was leaving the tournament and overheard some veteran scouts mentioned Hunter Brown's name and say, oh, like, I've heard this kid's pretty good. So he decided to stick around. Saw Hunter Brown and the rest as they say, is history.
00:32:07
Speaker 1: Game is full of stories like that. You know, school has got a couple examples of you know, the high school to college recruitment stories that he told this on on our episode. You can go listen to that or watch it on YouTube on our fee when Tik Schooble joined us this offseason. Uh, we've kind of done a disservice here, guys. This really is the AJ Hinch episode and we barely mentioned him, like like and we know what's up, AJ, friend of the podcast, but like he is obviously explicitly tied to both franchises currently in past. But I was curious Chandler leaning into this series. This is a first because we've all we've done all the the AJ returns to Houston, how you know, like all those stories have been written, but the angle that has not been written because it doesn't exist until now is now AJ's coming into town with a indisputably better baseball team. Like, I know they won the playoff series last year, but going in that anecdote that I just shared, no one really thought the Tigers were the better baseball team. And now Houston's going through their stuff again. Still good, but the Tigers are hot. They just come off a ten and two home stand. Like Cody said earlier, they have the best record in the American League. And so now I'm a little curious. I'm a little curious if it's gonna be as friendly for AG now that he's like a legitimate threat. Because the analogy I'll draw here is everybody still loved Matthew Stafford in Detroit, like the first time they played. Now it wasn't in Detroit, was in LA. Everybody rooted from the super Bowl. The second the Lions got good and there were stakes, all of a sudden, it's like, you know what, f that guy, Like he's actually the enemy. So not in apples to apples comparison, but at the same time, this is a unique thing in the post signs stealing scandal, whatever you want to call it, aspect of AJ Hinch's career going back to Houston.
00:34:07
Speaker 3: I think it'd be different if AJ like left on his own accord, or if AJ like decided like for whatever reason, like hey, like, I'd like to manage Tigers over the Astros, Like I want to make this conscious decision to leave this budding dynasty.
00:34:22
Speaker 4: And it was not a conscious decision and go.
00:34:25
Speaker 3: Manage the Tigers. I think when you start talking about the scandal and just sign seeling it, like a lot of fans here still feel like the Astros were made examples of that. It was like, I think we're past the point of people trying to say they did nothing wrong. I think people acknowledged that the Astros did things wrong, like that they broke not even break the law, but they broke the rules. I think what people are more upset about, especially seeing how things have gone since, like having questions about leadership, like in the front office. It's like, man, you fired like the best GM and maybe the city's history, maybe one of the better GMS, like from a strictly on field standpoint, one of the better gms in baseball history for something that like you made an example of same thing with AJ Hinch. That's not to say that Dusty Baker or Joe Aspata has done a poor job managing like I think both of them did very very well here, but it'd be different if it was something where like AJ left on his own. I still think there's there's some sympathy when AJ comes to town because a lot of people wonder what could have been or what if or like what if Mike fires never opens his mouth? What if? You know that that's more of the thought other than like AJ is this trader. AJ is coming in too, like our and our dynasty things like that. You know, I think it's interesting too that like AJ is bringing a team in here that like doesn't have the payroll that the Astros have, like don't have the superstars, don't have the names that the apps have. So inherently like AJ is bringing this team in here, and you can viscerally like see the work that a manager and a coaching staff have done on this team to make them good, like the matchups, like you can see like look like Joe A. Spota is a very good manager, good tactician, but he's not calling a ton of hitting runs. He's not calling it to lay it down a bunch of sacrifice bunts, Like he's not playing a ton of matchups because you know what if you get if you got from er Valdez on the mound or Hunter Brown on the mountain, you don't have to do much managing. And then you get to the seventh inning and it's like, all right, give the ball to Brian A. Brady and Josh Hater, like any team in baseball would do if JOSEL two is up in a big spot or Jordan Alvarez or you know these guys that they have, Like there's not a ton of like real difficult like tactician and Joe's gonna. I hope Joe doesn't listen to this and think I'm demeaning him. But like you, AJ is working with less commesurate wise than maybe track record wise than Joe is, so like or Dusty did prior to Joe. So you are seeing a team that's coming in like with AJ's fingerprints all over it. And I think that to me would irritate me a little more just because like, man like we had this, like we had this guy that like is very clearly, if not one of the better in game managers in baseball, you know, top three or four, Like had this guy, and he left. It was out of our control that he left. So I don't think there's not animosity, and there's not, And there really was an animosity last year in the Wildcard Series when they won, like I think you saw like he got applauded like both games, like they didn't boo him like and that's the case when all the anybody from the seventeen team comes back here, like they don't get booed at all. So I don't think it's going to be that big of a change of ideology. But again, like, who knows if they get to the If they get to Wednesday and they've beaten the crap out of him for two and a half games and Aj goes out to make a pitching change on Wednesday, who knows he could hear some he could hear some heckles.
00:38:02
Speaker 4: I'll never forget in the uber to the airport in Houston after the wild Card Series last year, just hearing talk radio, just like melting, like why is Aj Hinchatt managing the Astros? Alex Core is still managing the Red Sox. And you know there's a part of AJ who probably every time he steps foot in that building has to think, what if, you know, what if we didn't break the rules, or what if I wasn't the guy who kind of had to take a symbolic fall, or however you want to phrase it, how many pennants could we have won? Would I be going to Cooperstown? And studies had to take a very altered trajectory a much longer path. I've said a million times. I always I think post suspension, AJ viewed it as important to almost do it the hard way, right, and that's definitely what he has done. And I think it was validating for him. You would never admit it, but I think it was validating for him to beat the Astros. And I think it's validating for him now to roll into town with a team that looks to be legitimately good and it is a team built in his image a little bit, a team that's improved steadily over the years. They're not gonna bunt or hit and run. That's not AJ style, but they play the matchups. He still manages the crap out of every single game. And I used to think AJ didn't like going back to Houston or hearing the questions, like getting asked about the scandal or getting asked just what's it like to be back in you know, minute made Slash daycon Park. I think that's gonna be different now because I think he can have a little more pride, you know, stick his chest out a little bit more, and I think he's almost gonna be welcoming that It's it's gonna be a little bit of a humble brag for AJ to go in there with a team that he has kind of helped build over the last four to five years and now appears to be to be legit.
00:39:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, didn't he say something the other day? Didn't he get asked about like winning a big series or beating like a big opponent. Then he like turned the question on the guy and say, like, why don't other teams.
00:40:04
Speaker 4: Get out of when is it like to beat us?
00:40:08
Speaker 3: Right? Like, I think that's the tone he'll probably take here. It's like, I mean, I don't think he'll ever be like I don't think he'll ever be like mean spirited about it. But he here and say like, I mean, we beat these guys on the biggest stage, like we don't. We don't into talk about like how gratifying it is for me to be back here, Like I mean this is just old hat now, Like and I mean I think AJ, like, I mean, obviously you know Cody, like he still has roots here, like I believe he saw has a house in the Woodlands, Like I mean still one of his daughters may still be in school here. I'm not sure where they're at and trajectory wise, but like that he still has roots here, and I think that may enter his mind to with like, man, I wouldn't have had to uproot my family. We could have really settled down here, We could have really like made Houston called Houston our forever home. And now that's not the case. And I wonder how much it's more maybe of a personal like family thing than maybe more like because like I think we have to remember, like baseball players in general are wired to be like transient people, to be like you don't stay like unless your Jose al Tuva or Miguel Cabrera, Like you don't stay in one place for forever like you you just you move. You you it's the business of the sport. It's the business of baseball. So he had that rare opportunity to maybe have that here, to have a place where he could have been entrenched as you know, a legend, and you know, for right or wrong, he always will be like the World Series title is, they're not taking it away, like they still have the trophy, they still have the rings. It's still in the record books. Like he won the first World Series title for the Houston Astros. He managed the Houston Ashers, first World series, UH, title winning team, Like his legacy is secure here. Now there's a lot of layers and nuance to it once you start talking about it, but his legacy in Houston is cemented, and I think he can come and know that on top of having this team to come in here and you know this is a better team, Like they are coming in here as the favorites, And I don't think that's something we thought we would say maybe this soon in AJ's tenure.
00:42:13
Speaker 1: No, And part of the story too, in terms of what could have been, is the Chicago White Sox piece of it, Like that was that was the that was the team to to manage at the time, and then they went in a different direction.
00:42:28
Speaker 4: He ends up talking about alternate timelines.
00:42:32
Speaker 1: And look where the franchises are now compared to them. Obviously Houston has just continued to have success. But I did want to pick your brain a little bit here as we uh, as we're about forty minutes into this podcast, Chandler is that obviously a lot of moves in the offseason that the Astros made, some with short term gain, some with long term gain. In mind, what about from ber Valdez, Like this is a guy that's yeah, I got in front of me. He is. He's about to turn he'll turn thirty two this year. He's in the last year of his contract. He's been we talked about Hunter Brown, he's been, you know, supplanted as the ace of the team. Is there. What are the conversations around him right now, both externally and internally.
00:43:18
Speaker 3: I mean, he's going to follow the same path that every one of these other homegrown guys did. They're going to let him play out and then he's going to go into free agency and he there's a very very very very very high likelihood who will be playing somewhere other than Houston next season, just because that's this, This is how the Ashers operate. They don't they don't go into the realm of numbers and years and dollars that fromber will want. As you know, you look at the max free deal. I don't think he gets I don't think he reaches that number. But he's right there. I mean, you talk about left handed starting pitching like he's gonna be the best left handed started pitcher on the market next year. He's going to be. If not, I mean, he'll be in the top three or four free agent starters available. You know, they considered they they listened on him this past winter along with trading Kyle Tucker. They however, the reason they didn't trade fromber this winter is because they didn't believe. And you can look it up. This guy has thrown. He hadn't thrown two hundred innings every year, but he's thrown at least one ninety ninety five every year. He's been a full time starry. This is the epitome of a durable workhorse like throws posts. And they did not believe that they could replicate that volume of innings with what they had in early So that's why they that's why they opted to trade Kyle Tucker over Frombervell does. But they listened on fromber both last winter and the winter before. If they are somehow completely out of contention at the trade deadline, which I don't envision just given how weak the American League is, he automatically becomes an ideal trade target for anyone if they're if they make him available at the deadline, but they they're not going to do that unless they are completely out of it the time to trade him if they wanted to recoup any value. If they wanted to get value from him before the time to trade him was his past winter, and they decided not to. So you know, they'll stick it out with him. He can be enigmatic at times. He's very much a you know, he's done a lot of work with a sports psychiatrist to really get the mental side of things squared away with him, and sometimes it's still a struggle for him. Sometimes you'll see him, you know, bark at umpires. You'll see him react to an error behind him or a soft hit, or he's notoriously bad at fielding his position, so a lot of things can kind of snowball on him. But he's found a way to get his breathing right regularly his breathing, settle himself and become like a true workhorse. And you know, if not for Hunter Brown, the ace of this team. So you know, who knows if the Tigers need a starter at the deadline and the Astros are fifteen hunder five hundred, tell Scott Harris called Dana Brown, I'll have the best rental guy available.
00:46:03
Speaker 4: Yeah, in a weird way, I think the Fromber situation could be a little bit of a roadmap or depending on how it ends, up a cautionary tail for what the Tigers are soon going to face with Derek Scooble. Schoobols maybe even a tier above fromber But you have a premier left handed starter on a good team. So what do you do. You know, School's hard to trade, but the better if he continues to pitch this, well, he's only going to be harder to re sign. Chandler, I feel like you've kind of been on the front end for a while saying like the Astors might have to trade fromber and they didn't do it, but like you said, they did. Listen, no one wants to hear that the Tigers might have to trade Schooble. But like, especially as we head into this, you know next offseason, it's it's just going to be a hard reality they might have to face. And if the Astors let fromber Walk and give them the qualifying off or whatever, I mean, that maybe well be how things end with schoobl in Detroit. But there's a little bit of a parallel there too.
00:47:03
Speaker 3: Even I'd say it's more of a parallel with Hunter Brown at the moment because Hunter Brown and Trek Scouble have one thing in common. Their representation so Hunter Brown hired Scott Boris this winter. You know what that means, So there will be no extension unless they are blown out of the water with an offer. So I think the parallel there is more kind of brown like, especially where they're like, how many more r years does Scooble.
00:47:27
Speaker 4: Have is he's under team control for two more seasons or so, right this year and next year.
00:47:32
Speaker 3: So Hunter's got Hunters one year back, so he's got this year and then two more years. So I think that's the more apt parallel is because you know, there's already fans that are fretting about you know, they're not gonna be able to extend them, and I think they've accepted that with just given how the astros operate and the Boris factor. So I think it'd be really stupid to trade Trek's Scooble, just like I think it'd be really stupid to trade Hunter Brown. But or I mean, I was on board with them trading from er Valdez this past winter because like again, like I thought they had enough starting pitching depth that they could have done what they deemed that they thought they couldn't do, which was like get the volume of innings. Instead, they traded the best player on their team. And they wonder why they have the fifth lowest ops in baseball, because when you trade the best player on your team, that tends to happen. So yeah, I think.
00:48:29
Speaker 2: So.
00:48:29
Speaker 3: Have they even tried to extend school, like, I mean, aside from like just doing the the doing the cursory.
00:48:35
Speaker 4: Just yeah, hard to say how much, how much of a serious effort it was. I think I think every negotiation has to start somewhere. I don't think there's been like a full court press to bring it back.
00:48:48
Speaker 3: And Scott Harris isn't dumb either, like he he he knows the situation too so and and the Ashers do too, like the Ashers had a chance and what the Ashlers will kick themselves for. Brown was very, very very interested in the extension last spring, not this past spring. Last spring when he had a four to six ERA and two and a half big league seasons, to the point where he switched representation to not Scot Woars, another agency midway through spring training in hopes that an extension could get done. It never got done. Now we are where we are, so they they really they had a golden opportunity to lock in Hunter Brown before he became real Hunter Brown, and that's something that I think they will regret for a long time because the way this thing is going. I'm not saying that they're going downhill, and I'm not saying the window is slamming shut, but it's not the same superteam it was, and the payroll is not I mean, Jim Crane spends money, but certainly not in the ways that it would take to retain him, to retain Kyle Tucker, to retain Fromberveldes So and they have the worst, if not the worst into some in baseball bottom three, so they have nothing coming either to help replenish and be sustainable the s word in a cost controlled manner. So they may have no choice at some point, but they're gonna kick themselves for not getting Hunter Brown extended, you know, two years ago, when he was really ready, willing and able to do it.
00:50:23
Speaker 1: Yeah. The school, the school bul aspect of it is one that you know, we kind of feels bad, right wrong to talk about it today when he still lights out, but it is something that does hangover Tigers fans heads a little bit because this iteration of ownership and front office ship. I know, I may at the word up uh doesn't really have a history of of dolling out payroll skyrocketing contracts. Like the one major extension that Scott Harris has done was with Colt Keith, who puts him it was like, what thirty something million over eight years, Cody something like that.
00:51:00
Speaker 4: He's only guaranteed twenty eight. Yeah, it's like Chandler's point here, it doesn't matter. Like this is a whole other thing that we'll probably talk about all next winter. But like they could offer him two billion dollars, Scott Boris might still say, I want to take this to free agency. Let's see if the Yankees.
00:51:17
Speaker 3: Will beat it, you know, right, the only sort of a Boris thing that it's the only way that Trek School or Hunter Brown or signing extensions are if their respective teams make them the sort of offer that like just blows away any possible thing that they could get in free agency, like at all. And still even then Scott would probably Scott Boris would probably tell them, would probably advise them anyway to wait for the open market when you have thirty teams that can bid on you. Now, anytime we talk about this, I do have to have this caveat we talk about Scott Borris not liking pre orb extensions, not liking pre free agency extensions. The Astros do employ two players that have signed jose Al two V signed two of them. Lance mccullor signed one of them pre free agency extensions while being represented by Scott Boris, So it has happened before, like it can happen. But the through line in those two was at Lance and Altuve instructed Scott Boris like, I don't want to play anywhere else. I want to be here, and Scott at the end of the day, he does do what his clients ask him to do, so he got those extensions worked out. So I guess for Tiger's fans you can feel heartened it can't happen. Like if Trek Scooble goes to Scott Boris and says, I don't want to play anywhere else but Detroit, make it work, that can happen. Same thing with Hunter Brown here. But I get the feeling that's not how it's going to turn out.
00:52:42
Speaker 4: So just create a budding dynasty. It might be your best chance.
00:52:47
Speaker 1: That's it. That's all it takes, all right, anything else that we need to hit on. Did we miss anything? Guys? I felt like we were pretty thorough here almost an hour in.
00:52:59
Speaker 3: This Cold Keith will play first base, all right?
00:53:02
Speaker 1: So the short answer much time do we have here? The short answer on that is cold Keith is more position less than having a position. Uh. He actually hasn't played like what four games? Is it that it? Cody starts at first base.
00:53:18
Speaker 4: Realized first baseman again, baby, realized he.
00:53:21
Speaker 1: Was a one to one, and he had a good defensive weekend. I thought Cody was some you know, some tough plays.
00:53:25
Speaker 4: And almost more impressive than his offense. Like defense is just less of a fluid thing. You don't just wake up and go from being a negative defender to a positive defender. I feel like that's what towurkle Sen has done. He's looked really good at first. To go back to the cold Keith question, Colts, it was the beneficiary of the Tigers signing Glabor tores and theory moving on from from uh Spencer Torklesen. Now he's really the one wearing the Spencer torkle Sen reclamation because they're paying Labor to play second. Glabor's playing well.
00:53:58
Speaker 1: Labor does not want to play third, will not play third.
00:54:01
Speaker 4: That hasn't actually come up with the Tigers, but that was a storyline in his in his free agency. Colt is not gonna play first, He's not gonna play second. I mean he's gonna mix in at those two positions. He can DH some. But Cary Carpenter's dhing some. He just had a scare with his hamstring, so he's been dhing a little bit more. Uh, and he just hasn't been that productive, although I think we're starting to see some signs he's been pulling the ball a little bit more. It's still not like big picture worried about Colt Keith, but now it's almost a matter of just like how do you get him at bats? It's become a kind of a strange situation.
00:54:37
Speaker 1: He's getting squeezed out a little bit.
00:54:39
Speaker 3: That yeah, and then what and then which one of these anonymous relievers I've never heard of is the closer?
00:54:48
Speaker 4: What is a closer?
00:54:49
Speaker 1: The closer like like a door, like what you know what?
00:54:54
Speaker 3: You know what?
00:54:54
Speaker 4: I thought today the Yankees officially like demoted Dev Williams from the closer role. I was like, maybe this is just more AJ Hinch brilliance. You never have to revoke the closer role from someone if you just don't say it officially. Tommy Cainley seems to be the guy getting the most ninth inning reps right now. With a little bit of will Vest mixed in there.
00:55:14
Speaker 3: Is Cainleys still throwing like change ups every.
00:55:17
Speaker 4: A lot of change ups. He he hasn't thrown fifty six in a row yet. He does have a fastball, he's used it a little bit. But the guy throws a lot of change ups.
00:55:26
Speaker 3: You know, you could have had like a World Series winning closer with the Detroit Tigers if he would have said if he would have said yes. It's always something about former twenty seventeen and twenty twenty two Astros saying no to the Detroit Tigers. A complete uh, a testament of their off season. Ryan Presley good good reliever. Good reliever for the Chicago Cups.
00:55:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, I forgot about that storyline, man, That seems like a million years ago.
00:55:54
Speaker 4: Somehow, the Tigers have constructed a really good book in with some guys that no one outside of Detroit.
00:55:59
Speaker 2: Now.
00:56:00
Speaker 1: It's a it's a full faith thing from the fans. Anything pitching related that that the coaching staff and the front office does they They seem not. They do have missus Cody mentioned earlier, Kent and Maida, but it it's not about one thousand. But when it comes to bullpen guys especially, no one gives any sort of pushback, like at all. And of course, of course with AJ, like anything AJ does is like he'll say something, but then his actions are like actually the kind of contradictory to what the statement is. So it's like, who's the closer? I don't believe in closers. Meanwhile, like last year, like Jason Foley got every single closing opportunity the first like two months of the year, right, So like that's that's one of my favorite ajasm, Like, oh, I don't think that way, and then he just literally manages that way.
00:56:46
Speaker 3: I will say, I'm excited to see Casey Mace pitch just given like everything he has been through, and yeah, it's it'd be fun to watch him because liked even make the wildcard. He was even on the.
00:56:56
Speaker 4: PA, he was on the wildcard rosterage pitch, and then he was off the DS roster. If I'm remembering that correctly, there was the other way around what a comeback. Uh, he's looked legit, legit. If his splitter keeps working, He's going to have a terrific season.
00:57:15
Speaker 3: I'm excited to watch it.
00:57:19
Speaker 1: All right, Chandler. Uh. For the Tiger Territory listeners, where can they? Where can they find your work at.
00:57:26
Speaker 3: The Athletic alongside Cody Stavenhagen and uh at Chandler Underscore Rome on whatever Elon is calling his social media.
00:57:35
Speaker 1: And you can follow and subscribe to Crush City Territory. Excuse me if you so choose and want to get the Houston perspective after the Tiger series or just in general. Chandler's a fun guy. If you want to listen to him, I wouldn't say that's a bad decision. You can follow Cody on X or Twitter or whatever it's being called these days at Cody Stavenhagen, I'm at herean Underscore Steckley. Tiger Territory is the podcast, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast, five star review, like and subscribe.
00:58:03
Speaker 3: Wait, I have one more question. Have the Tigers have the Tigers from the corner.
00:58:08
Speaker 1: They had turned the corner they made the playoffs.
00:58:11
Speaker 4: I think making the playoffs counts.
00:58:13
Speaker 1: And they officially turned the corner and so we had to come up with a new gimmick. And now they are just territory. So glad, glad, glad to have made that change at a good time. It would been awkward if they were still rebuilding when we.
00:58:26
Speaker 4: Had still doesn't do well in se O. You type in like Tigers podcast, we don't come up.
00:58:30
Speaker 1: So they gotta we gotta work on that. We gotta get on our our social media influencer game a little bit. But if you follow us, that will help us out a lot. So for Chandler Rome, Cody Stepenaga, I'm Kieren Steckley. Everybody, have a great day.