Community Voices & County Partners: Spotlight on Elder Abuse Awareness (Part 1)

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Hi everyone, and welcome back to Consumer Connection, a podcast brought to you by the Montgomery County Office of Consumer Protection.
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I'm your host, Michelle Escobar.
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Today's episode kicks off a special two-part series highlighting the power of community voices and county partnerships in raising awareness about elder abuse, especially as we recognize World's Elder Abuse Awareness Day, or WEAD.
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In part one, we're joined by three incredible community advocates, Judith Boivid, Dolores Miller, and Jane Dean.
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They're volunteers with Montgomery County's Keeping Seniors Safe program, and they bring an energy and passion that truly moves and empowers the people they meet.
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Then in part two, we'll talk with Mario Wawrzusin from the Montgomery County Adult Protective Services.
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He'll help us understand red flags, reporting, and how our county agencies work together to protect vulnerable adults.
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Let's jump in.
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Ladies, thank you so much for being here today.
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It really is a privilege.
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I got to meet you once at the ARP.
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I think it was their kickoff uh press conference, Protect Week.
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Yes, that's right.
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And so your energy is like no other.
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Um I really again appreciate you all being here.
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But let's start by each one of you, please introducing yourselves.
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We can start.
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Okay.
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I'm Jane Dean.
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Jane.
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Jane Dean.
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And Judith Boivin.
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I'm Dolores Miller.
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Dolores Miller.
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Again, thank you so much.
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Um so, Jane, Judith, and Dolores, you all three have um have come together because there is something that connects you.
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Um, and we want to hear uh your story today and how you you got to meet and how you became the force that you are today.
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Um, but it was through an experience that really can happen to anybody, um, an experience that um stays with you um in so many ways.
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Um so if if maybe uh uh you would start for us.
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Okay, well, the three of us met at the victims support group that AARP runs.
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And uh that's how we were able to connect with each other.
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And it turns out that all three of us live like two and a half miles from each other, so it made it much easier.
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It's easier for us to coordinate um and get together and become a part of the Keeping Seniors Safe program that is run by Bill Paiser.
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Um that's kind of how we got together.
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It's an unusual situation because we don't normally meet in person other people that are members of the support group.
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Well, yeah, the support group is very, very anonymous and certainly it was uh instrumental in us, all of us, and I know especially for me for being here.
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Um it I first joined it in February of 24.
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And my scam went from September until um January, end of January 24, September of 23 to the end of January 24.
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So as far as the three of us um getting together and going out and doing presentations and our advocacy, it happened kind of just by chance.
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Um, like they said, we were in the support group together, which is on Zoom.
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There are people from all over the country, even other countries.
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Coincidentally, near my home, there's a senior center.
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I live in Silver Spring, and I saw that at the senior center they were doing a presentation about scams.
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And my scam had just happened about two months before, and I was in the support group.
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So I went to this presentation on scams, and they made a joke out of it in this presentation.
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It was done in-house on the senior center by just the regulars there.
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And they made this little bit video about a grandparent scam, but they did it to a song.
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It was a joke, and people were laughing.
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And I found it very disturbing because I said, I don't think anybody in my support group would think this is funny.
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Um, so I went to the director of the senior center and I told her my feelings, asked her, please never show that again.
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She was a little defensive, but not too bad.
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And then that time went by another month, and here I saw in another location that they were doing something about scams.
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And I thought, I can't let this happen again.
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So I contacted them, found out it was a completely different organization.
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It turned out it was Bill Piser from the Keeping Seniors Safe Program.
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I got in touch with him, told him my story, and he said, I would really be honored if you would come and do these presentations with me.
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Because up to that point, it was just him.
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So I was con I went to the support group and I said, What does everybody think, you know, about me doing this?
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And Judith and Jane, being that they live near me, both said, we're gonna come there with you to support you.
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And when I told Bill, he was ecstatic and he said, Well, they speak too.
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And so that was the first time that the three of us were in the community.
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Now, obviously, they had spoken about things prior to that, but that was how we got started as a group.
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Oh, and and a group that you are.
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Let's let's talk about what happened, your experience.
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What was what was the scam?
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Jane, well, my scam was a call from Amazon uh telling me that they suspected someone uh was fraudulently using my Amazon account um and trying to get payment from my bank.
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Well, I don't have an Amazon account, but they named my bank and they were right about the name.
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And so that's how my scam got started.
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Um it's it would be, I guess, what you would call a government imposter scam.
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So I was transferred uh to uh three or four different times until I ended up with the scammer who re who represented himself as a security officer for um the Social Security Administration.
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And so that's how that started.
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So by the time I got to him, like I was so under the ether um in a state of uh hyper-emotional distress that you know that that was uh that's how the scam starts and works.
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And and so it started by the Amazon, and then and then you said that you I was transferred first to the fraud department of my bank.
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Okay, and then I was transferred to the FTC, then to the FBI, and then to SSA.
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Each at each place they were saying that, oh yeah, well, you need to talk to so and so, I'll transfer you.
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So I was transferred five times.
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And so you were thinking that you were calling your bank?
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I well, it started with me thinking that I got the call from Amazon.
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They're trying to confirm whether this was going to be a legitimate purpose uh purchase or not.
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Okay, okay.
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And uh I told them it was not.
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Okay.
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And so because the it was fraud, that's how they said, Oh, you need to talk to so-and-so, we'll transfer you.
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You need to talk to so-and-so, we'll transfer you.
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So there were five transfers.
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So And so what happened after that?
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The scammer told gave me very specific instructions.
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He told me someone was trying to set up uh an account in my name in Mexico where they could launder uh $300,000 of dark money, and that I could actually be prosecuted for money laundering if they were successful.
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And so they um, you know, encouraged me to, you know, help them try to catch the bad guys, which, you know, uh, you know, I said, sure.
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Yeah.
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And uh, and so that's they told me what what I needed to do.
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I needed to send my clean money to a criminal lawyer in California who would set up a government secure account for me, and that's where it would be stored.
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And that um I needed to go to the bank and and send the money.
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And any person I talked to, I couldn't trust anybody not to tell anybody anything.
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You can't trust anybody, even the bank tellers could be in it, uh, in on it, and um and just to leave my t cell phone turned on when I'm interacting with anybody.
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So they could record it and use that as evidence when they catch the bad guys and go to court.
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And what was the time frame?
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That time frame from the start to finish being under the ether and being removed from the getting, you know, removed from the ether was five days in my case.
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Our scams are so different.
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I mean, even in the in time frames, as Judith will explain about hers, yeah, and Dolores will explain about hers, that it it's just it's dramatically different.
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Yeah.
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Then let's hear it, Judith.
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Well, the similarities are there's so many threads that are alike.
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I had a FBI imposter scam, and I mine started by um a phone call coming in on my car.
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Um, I was dropping my husband, who is Parkinson's, at a medical appointment.
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And the the screen showed uh Rockville County Police, Victor Brito, who is was the chief of police in 23.
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And I was pretty like, wow, what's that all about?
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And then it rang a bell.
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A couple days earlier, I'd had a call from that same number, but I disregarded it.
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But when I saw it on the screen in my car, okay, so I answered it, and the individual identified himself as Victor Brito.
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And um my husband got out of the car while I was speaking, so I was all by myself.
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And he he just said to me, asked me if anybody was around, and I said, No.
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And he said, Um, you're being charged with uh fraudulent money laundering, and we've had three bank accounts opened in your social security number.
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And I said, Oh, that's crazy.
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I don't believe that.
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Anyhow, he said, well, we know, but it is an active case with the FBI, and so we're gonna be transferring you there.
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And so there goes the transfer to the FBI, and the FBI agent that comes on the line identifies himself as Wayne Jacobs, director of the cybersecurity for the uh and and at the uh field office in DC.
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And in the interim here, I'm Googling these names on my phone, and I'm seeing that they're real.
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And so I allow him to speak up and tell me what's this about.
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And he goes on to give me quite a story about the horrors of fentanyl and the number of deaths that are being experienced in this area, and the accounts that have been opened under my social security number.
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And would I be willing to be an asset?
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So I said, Well, yeah.
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And then, of course, can you keep confidence?
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You don't tell anybody, not even your husband.
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That was pretty much the first encounter in that phone call.
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But at the time of speaking with the FBI imposter, he did initiate a code word for calls that he was going to be giving me at nine and five every day.
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And I would have to have my qu my question was uh tell me what my favorite color is.
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And then if it was somebody else other than the code word we'd set up.
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Anyhow, so I got called every day, twice a day, and um kept this kept confidence, and the scheme developed in a few days, but I had to sign a lot of documents that were sent to me via email and yeah, mostly email.
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And all of them came with the um identity of the FBI and Wayne's number or initials and name signed, and I got documents to fill out, which included all my financial report, declaration of finances, and social security number.
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Anyhow, that I I did it all trusting that I was really working with the FBI.
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And as rare as that really sounds, um, I mean, I looking back, it seems so evident, but at the moment I totally believed and trusted.
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And the idea of being able to help intercept or you know, can uh close out some cartels, um, I was all for it.
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Yeah.
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Who wouldn't want to help a law enforcement with that?
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And I had lived in Mexico, I was pretty uh familiar with that, but the FBI uh imposter also had all that information about me, knew everything.
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And I later realized that it had been gotten from the LinkedIn where I had my resume of where I'd lived, where I'd worked, what I'd done, what my degrees were, on and on.
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And that's it, because they had your bank information.
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Like they have they they they had that correct.
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So they and the phone number that you uh received was the actual name of the with the chief of police.
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The chief of police and Wayne A.
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Jacobs is a real person.
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He's now up in in Pittsburgh, and Victor Brito has retired from the the his office in in Rockville.
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But yeah, they're real people.
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And these are yeah, these are things that click and say, well, they're real people.
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Right.
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You have no reason to doubt.
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And uh, and of course, uh I I have to excuse myself to some degree because of my age.
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And you know, when you're in your 80s, you haven't been brought up with all this internet.
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And the idea of of even frauding a government agency, it wasn't at all in my bandwidth.
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Yeah.
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And that has nothing to do with age because you there's it's like now it's coming out because of stories like yours and people like you that come out with your stories and and let people know, but nobody would know.
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Nobody would think.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Thank you, Dolores.
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Oh, one, did you want to say what they had you do?
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Yeah, okay, yeah.
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Please, yes, well, they had me withdraw all my uh money from my IRS, which was at IRAs in in um in Wisconsin, because I had that's where my original finances had been for over 30 years at Morgan Stanley.
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And so the withdrawal of my money all came through there.
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And of course, I had a management fund and my IRAs were there, my annuity was there, my savings was there, everything I had for life.
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And it came to around 600,000, and I had to withdraw it in cash, transfer it to four different banks here in uh Maryland, and then proceed to withdraw 10,000, 20,000 and $20,000 increments in cash.
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And there was a story I had to tell, and the phone was always on when I was at the bank.
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I had to open all those accounts.
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Um, and the monies were being transferred from Wisconsin to each of these different banks.
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The secrecy, the stay on the phone, don't tell anyone.
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They they want to isolate you.
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Right.
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Um, and that this was in the timeframe of two, did you say
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It went from 23 and 23rd of September until the 19th of January 24.
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And the inner room, it took me an entire month to get my funds out of the uh Morgan Stanley.
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And on uh by October 31st, I had zero at that financial institution, and it was distributed at PNC, TD, Chase, and Capital One, all four of the banks in my local area.
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And the withdrawals um started immediately.
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The money needed to be bundled up, and once I got $20,000, I had to bundle them, and then the the FBI team would meet me at a coordination.
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They sent me coordinates, and I would drive to that in uh that location, the other cars, car would come up, they would have the back window on the passenger side down, and I was to get out of the car and drop my bundle that had my case study and the um locker number where the money was gonna go at the courthouse in DC.
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And I was told throughout the scam that the money would be returned and I would be given a new social security number.
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And of course, that never happened.
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Wow.
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And the OAG that got notice on the the OAG in Baltimore, who where Morgan Stanley sent a notification in an email that got read in January 18th, 19th of 24.
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And my money was all given to stolen from me to these thieves, imposters, uh in from November 15th until December 15th.
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But the scam didn't end until the 29th, uh till 19th.
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19th of January 24, when the OEG's office told me, Oh, you've been scammed.
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And never recuperate any of it?
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I did get uh 50,000 back.
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Okay.
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Thank you to uh Michael Adami from the Montgomery County Police.
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He's no longer there either.
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But yes, he retrieved uh um two cashier's checks for $50,000 that had been sent to an attorney in California, and it turned out that that woman had also been part of the scam as a victim.
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Because when they money laundering, money launder, they send to all these places, but those people are also under their influence.
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So there's many, many, many layers, prostates and the international element of it.
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The FBI came also and they had an open case.
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The number they had already traced, they knew that it was from India, and there were 12 others besides myself that had been victims to that very same scam.
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And actually, it was Michelle Singletary in her seven-piece article in December of 24 that identified the whole different states where this was a similar scam by the similar group.
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Oh Judith.
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Dolores.
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I was shopping for bird seed.
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I had a list of errands I had to do that day, so I was, you know, getting on a roll.
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My phone rang and it said private number, and I didn't answer it.
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And it rang again saying private number.
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By the fourth time, um, I thought something must be wrong, and so I'm going to answer it.
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The caller identified himself as a Montgomery County police officer.
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He said there was a warrant out for my arrest because I had not responded to several supports.
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Subpoenas.
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And I told him, well, that can't be me because I never got any subpoenas.
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And he said, Well, then somebody else is using your name.
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You're going to need to come down to the sheriff's office to straighten this all out.
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And at that point, I thought, I don't think this is for me.
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And so I said, okay, I'm going to hang up now.
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And he, that's when he got me under the ether.
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He raised his voice and he said, No, you're not going to hang up.
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You don't tell the police what to do.
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We tell you what you're going to do.
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And this is a case involving an ongoing murder investigation.
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And we're going to need your cooperation, or you could compromise this murder investigation.
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So at that point, then he got me.
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At that point, he also texted me a copy of the warrant for my arrest.
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My name was on it, spelled correctly.
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:57.200
He led me to believe that the sheriffs were going to come to my house to pick me up and bring me down there to clear it up.
00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:02.799
But I had to show that I had the money for the bond so as not to be arrested.
00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:08.720
And he instructed me to take cash and to go to a Bitcoin machine.
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:13.759
He gave me a number that I was supposed to enter in the Bitcoin machine to send the money to.
00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:17.440
And that would be held by Montgomery County police.
00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:21.279
And that when this was all cleared up, I would get all my money back.
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:30.960
He again instructed me not to tell anybody that if I did tell anybody, I could compromise the investigation and a murderer could go free.
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:35.119
And so I did not go to a bank.
00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:54.880
I happened to have a safe in my home that had cash in it with money that my husband and I had collected over a period of many years when we would do extra jobs other than our work, just so that when I retired, if we needed something extra, it wasn't money that we were using on bills or things like that.
00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:57.359
It was money for emergencies.
00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:01.119
And um, and I knew that I had that money there.
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:05.519
So I went home and I was taking the money out.
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:13.759
And while I was doing it, I would start to cry because it was so organized with the envelopes and the dates and everything and description of what we had done.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:20.799
And I was tearing all these envelopes open and I would cry and he'd get really nice and he'd say, No, it's gonna be okay.
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:23.119
I'm right here, I'm gonna walk you through it.
00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:25.279
You're gonna get every bit of this money back.
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:30.799
And if you even stop and need to get lunch, keep the receipts, keep all these receipts when you come to the courthouse.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:33.279
We're gonna just gonna give you all this money back.
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:35.119
It sounded plausible to me.
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:38.079
I didn't, to me, a Bitcoin machine was like an ATM.
00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:43.920
You put your money in, you get your receipt, you know where your money goes, and then you get it back when you need it.
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:47.119
So um I didn't know.
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:50.000
So he I didn't even know where a Bitcoin machine was.
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:51.839
So he had to instruct me.
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:53.759
And I was too worked up to drive.
00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:55.200
So I took Ubers.
00:24:55.200 --> 00:25:03.519
And even at one point, when I got to the store, it was a giant grocery store uh where um the Bitcoin machine was.
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:06.559
And I even said to the Uber driver, could you just wait here?
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:08.799
I'm going in to make a deposit, I'll be right out.
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:11.279
And he started saying, Don't talk to anybody.
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:12.559
You've already said too much.
00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:14.559
And I could hear him on the phone.
00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:20.160
Um, and when I got in to the giant, I asked the security guard where the Bitcoin machine was.
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:21.359
He pointed it out to me.
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:22.799
It was just right there.
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:29.359
Um, and I followed all the instructions as he told me, you know, as the scammer told me what numbers to put in.
00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:35.119
Um and then sometimes if I the money wouldn't go in, you know, sometimes like it wouldn't accept a certain bill.
00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:37.599
And I was doing all hundred dollar bills.
00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:45.440
And um, and if I would get worked up, he again he would be like, it's all right, come on, just we're gonna get this done.
00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:50.079
But then if I would say something to him, like or question or something, or say, I'm confused.
00:25:50.079 --> 00:25:52.160
One time I said to him, I'm really confused.
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:55.359
Then he'd get mad and he'd say, You need to pay attention.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:57.119
You need to do what we're telling you to do.
00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:00.240
So he played good cop and bad cop all by himself.
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:03.119
Um, I could hear police radios in the background.
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:06.240
Every now and then he would act like he was talking to someone.
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:07.759
Maybe he was, I have no idea.
00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:10.000
And he would say, No, no, she understands.
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:10.640
It's all right.
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:12.240
She knows what she's supposed to do.
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:16.480
So I, of course, I pictured him being in a, you know, a police station.
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:17.440
Sure.
00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:28.319
So at one point, going back and forth, because I ended up having to make two or three trips to fulfill the exact amount of money, he'd say, Oh, no, you you've read you read it wrong up in the corner of the warrant.
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:30.559
There's, it tells you, when you read that wrong.
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:41.519
So I, at one point, I left a note for my husband saying, um, someone stole my identity, they're treating me like a criminal, they're taking me to the sheriff's office.
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:42.880
I'm terrified.
00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:49.359
And um, I was so scared when I wrote that note because I still believed that the sheriffs were coming to pick me up.
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:51.359
And I thought, what if they come in the house?
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:55.519
They see that I wrote that note, then they're gonna say, I compromised the investigation.
00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:58.319
So I was like so scared at this point.
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:00.799
I had my I had myself getting all worked up.
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:03.599
Um my husband came home, saw the note.
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:07.119
I was at the at the giant at the Bitcoin machine.
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:12.319
He drove down to the sheriff's office to find me, discovering that I wasn't there.
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:20.319
Um, they did mention to him that he needed to find me as soon as possible, and that if he could not find me, because they said she's being scammed.
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:25.039
If he couldn't find me, they said this will become a kidnapping case.
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:28.400
And I had forgotten that until recently when he reminded me.
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:30.000
So he was scared.
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:35.839
Um, and he came home, he saw the door open, he walked in, he saw the safe open, but he didn't see me yet.
00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:38.799
He thought there was still maybe someone in there with me.
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:42.960
Um, and so when he found me, I was still on the phone with the scammer by myself.
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:46.799
And he just yelled out and said, Hang up, it's a scam.
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:49.599
And the scammer said, Who are you talking to?
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:51.680
And I said, That's my husband.
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:53.200
You're a scam?
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:57.759
I mean, you're for me, I mean, you're numb when you first find out.
00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:00.720
There was this was your reality at that moment.
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:03.279
And then all of a sudden, it's not.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:06.559
And and I just said to him, You're a scam.
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:08.640
And he didn't say anything.
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:11.839
And then he said, Oh, I'm so sorry.
00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:13.759
I didn't mean to scam you.
00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:18.240
There was a different Dolores Miller that I thought I was finding that I wanted to scam.
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:22.960
She did my son dirty, and I'm trying to get back at her, and now I got the wrong person.
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:27.920
So send me your bank account number and I'm gonna send you every bit of this money back.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:29.279
Well, I didn't.
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:31.119
I hung up, obviously.
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:33.920
Even then kept going.
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:34.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:43.279
Well, I guess he figured, you know, if I can just get a little more, by then it was approximately had taken about $10,000 from me.
00:28:43.759 --> 00:28:43.920
Yeah.
00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:48.400
Five hours, months, five days.
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:51.839
You just never know.
00:28:51.839 --> 00:29:03.359
But it's the same, the same, the same type of um tactic in a sense that they imposters, uh angry, pressure if they need it.
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:06.240
They they know exactly what what to do.
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:11.200
Um to just the ether, as you said.
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:16.400
I felt like I was hypnotized then and looking back and kind of watching myself now.
00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:19.680
Yeah, I feel like I'm watching a person who's being manipulated.
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:20.960
Yeah.
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:30.720
When I first um met you three, um, Jane, you had said something very interesting, which was very it's which is very true.
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:35.119
Um we describe it as money lost.
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:36.720
But what do you say?
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:37.759
Stolen.
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:39.440
That's a trigger for me, I guess.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:42.559
Yes, it's stolen, not lost.
00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:47.920
And as soon as anyone says, uh, you know, so and so lost this amount of money, uh-uh.
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:50.079
I just like stolen.
00:29:50.079 --> 00:30:02.880
And I when I was at the hearing in Annapolis, I was sitting next to the delegate, and uh some woman was asking questions, and she said, Well, it's money that was lost.
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:06.000
And I s I grabbed his pen and I wrote on his notebook.
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:10.640
I didn't realize it was I wrote stolen, not lost.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:13.519
So yeah, because it's true.
00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:28.480
And it is I I know, and I dropping those bundles of money in in the back seat of a vehicle is kind of a nightmare.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:34.880
And I I believe so that I was gonna get everything back.
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:54.079
And I didn't have the the awful fear that um Dolores describes because I had an intention since I came to Maryland to move my money over to a closer bank.
00:30:54.079 --> 00:31:10.880
And so even though I was really dedicated to being an asset for an FBI case, especially with drug trafficking, I I thought, well, I'll get it back and I'll it'll all be here.
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:32.160
Of course, I did not understand at the time that this was my uh IRA's and the IRS has their role in this as well, because everything that's stolen and not turned over in 30 days is taxed.
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:42.400
And so the tax consequences of all that money, it's still charged taxes on me.
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:44.240
Well, I don't have that.
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:49.440
I don't have any money to pay the taxes.
00:31:50.160 --> 00:32:02.160
So as you three speak to the community, um what are what are um some of the things that um what are some questions that you get?
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:03.599
What are some things that you learn?
00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:10.400
What are things that that that the community doesn't understand um and that the message that you're trying to get across to them?
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:16.640
Well, I think uh a lot of people, they they mean well.
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:23.119
I mean, all all three of us, we mean well, we want to follow the the law, follow the rules and everything like that.
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:29.599
And people are reluctant to just summarily dismiss people.
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:35.359
And you kind of have to get over that when it when it's you're it's called upon.
00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:35.680
Yes.
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:44.240
And that's that's hard for people who are trusting and who's who want to be helpful um in in the long run.
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:50.160
And so that's uh an instinct that needs to be uh quashed.
00:32:50.160 --> 00:33:00.400
And um, it doesn't help that both Judith and I were nurses uh and you know, nurses help everybody, yeah.
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:05.119
And not only that, but social workers besides and other things.
00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:15.359
But at any rate, the I guess the questions are there usually aren't too many questions, especially with the groups we meet with.
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:34.960
Occasionally we get a little bit more, but I think it's a realization that it can happen to them because the way that um previous to our coming out about this, people frequently, well, how could you do that?
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:36.880
Didn't you know?
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:38.160
What was that?
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:41.519
You know, and we are the victims.
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:53.839
We're are we are the uh the criminals because we were too stupid or didn't uh weren't careful enough or didn't have enough caution or whatever.
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:57.279
And I want to throw in uh something here as well.
00:33:57.279 --> 00:34:09.679
Um, when I told my uh small circle of friends, I had posted four different articles on my Facebook page about scams and and witness uh uh shaming and everything.
00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:14.960
And I could one I followed up with one of them and I said, What did you think of those articles?
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:21.119
And she said and she wrote back that I just don't see how anybody could fall for such a scam.
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:24.400
And my my jaw just dropped.
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:28.719
And I just all I could text back to her was wow.
00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:31.119
Yeah.
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:32.719
Yeah.
00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:36.800
I think that most people think that it can't happen to them.
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:49.199
And I think one of the differences that it's made with us being there in person is Bill Pizer will do his wonderful, well thought out presentation that he does that he's always refining.
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:56.480
And that's about 40 minutes or so, 45 minutes, and people are taking notes and they're listening to all the facts and all the different scams.
00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:00.000
And then we each get up to speak.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:04.239
And I feel like I can ch s f sense a change in the room.
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:12.800
Because now it went from hearing all about this and taking notes to like oh, there's a real person right there, and they're talking about it.
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:23.440
I I I just think that the personal story is really what is the education edge.
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:32.079
Because the words, oh, you've got to don't answer these calls, oh, do this, don't do that, oh watch for this, watch for that.
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:39.119
But when you hear somebody's story telling you what's happening, it makes a difference.
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:56.239
And when we were at the Capitol the other day in Maryland um, and the the senator said that this the bill we just got passed is because we were live people at that defendant table.
00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:56.719
Yeah.
00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:57.280
Right.
00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:01.119
We were talking about that on the way home from Annapolis.
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:15.440
We just both are kind of incredulous that our live testimony could have that much of an impact on their, you know, their impression of the usefulness and helpfulness of this bill.
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:22.960
I mean, I'm still kind of incredulous that, you know, that's I'm so proud of them.
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:26.320
I mean, to think that they were part of lawmaking.
00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:26.800
Yes.
00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:31.840
Um, I was actually not part of that because it's about banking and I never went to a bank.
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:33.440
So no, I wasn't part of that.
00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:41.519
But just knowing that they were doing that, and I just how exciting can that be to be such a part of history and crypto bills.
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:46.000
How you get crypto scammed.
00:36:46.800 --> 00:37:03.360
I was actually at the days they were there, ARP had flown me down to Raleigh, North Carolina, because North Carolina is in the process of trying to get legislation to outlaw the Bitcoin machines, or at least put clear signage as to what they are use for.
00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:09.440
Um, 90% of the activity that goes on in a Bitcoin machine is illegal activity.
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:18.400
Um I think Nevada has has passed a law that there's 23 states that passed a law that um don't allow that don't allow the Bitcoin machines.
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:18.880
Right.
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:22.400
And so North Carolina was trying to get this done.
00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:25.119
And so um they had me come out to North Carolina.
00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:25.840
That's what I was saying.
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:37.519
I did four interviews on Tuesday morning, and then they were actually going to the commute into the community to the stores where the Bitcoin machines were and leafleting the employees.
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:41.360
And the employees were, they were amazed, they had no idea.
00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:44.960
They didn't know that, they didn't know why that machine was in their store.
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:50.400
And and so I think what I said is I had mentioned the security guard.
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:57.440
If maybe if somebody had been leafleting and that security guard had read, oh, okay, this is what people do, I don't know.
00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:00.559
Maybe he would have thought, why does this lady keep coming and going?
00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:02.880
Why is she crying over there at that machine?
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:04.639
I'm not saying for sure.
00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:08.159
I'm just saying I think that was a smart thing for them to do.
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:11.519
Because when we do our presentations, people have to come to us.
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:12.079
Yes.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:13.920
And so they have to make that choice.
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:20.400
But if you're just going to go to people and you're going to give them information, that's just another direct way to get the education.
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:32.320
Oh, and also I'd like to add that the bill that was passed by uh signed by Governor Moore is the vulnerable, uh, vulnerable adult protection act.
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:42.960
And one thing I I did not mention in the my scam was that I had gone to three branches of the same bank, but I had to go to a different branch, okay?
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:50.559
And it was at the third branch where the bank manager came out and spoke to me and pulled me into his office.
00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:55.920
And uh, because that when I asked for the money, the teller said, we don't have that much.
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:59.920
And she disappeared for a few minutes, and the bank manager came out.
00:38:59.920 --> 00:39:06.000
And and he uh and he said, Ask me some very gentle, non-threatening questions.
00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:10.960
And then he's he looked at me and he said, Jane, what's going on?
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:14.400
And I broke down in tears and told him.
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:17.119
And I said, Right now my phone is turned on.
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:20.000
He said, You are being scammed.
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:30.159
And he had in the meantime put in the address where I'd sent two packages of money and showed me on his screen what was at that address.
00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:35.360
And it was an empty house on a new home's construction lot, and that's how he knew.
00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:44.719
Now, what he did at that time, um, he didn't have any legal protection for what he did for me.
00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:47.519
He brought me out from under the ether.
00:39:47.519 --> 00:40:06.880
Okay, but this vulnerable adult protection act will protect bank managers and tellers if they feel, if they sense that someone is there under duress, withdrawing money, or it's something weird out of their normal habits, which for me that was the case.
00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:22.880
It was definitely out of my normal banking habits, um, that they can pause that transaction until they can be reassured that it's a legitimate transaction taking place and not being done under dress.
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:23.280
Yeah.
00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:26.800
So that is a biggie for the banks.
00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:27.440
Right.
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:43.280
So I think sharing your stories and bringing that awareness to everyone, the way you all are going out and and and and and speaking to the government, speaking to newspapers, going on podcasts, everything that you're doing.
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:51.920
Um, and bringing the awareness is important because I think then comes that what I always say is it takes a village.
00:40:51.920 --> 00:41:01.840
Because if you have that awareness, then people will then um have the the the knowledge of of what may be going on and how to approach things.
00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:04.960
One one last thing before we are we're done.
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:06.960
Um Can I address it?
00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:08.079
Yes, absolutely.
00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:19.119
The three of us are highly, highly committed and motivated to getting the word out there to make sure that this does not happen to anyone else.
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:20.000
Yes.
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:23.199
And that is what's driving us.
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:24.800
And you're doing your part.
00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:27.360
And that was my going to be my final question.
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:32.559
What would be our part as the community if we see something, we say something?
00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:47.440
What would you say to your friends, the one that said, well, you know, this was this was you know, dumb that this happened, or or what would you say to these, to, to your to family and friends um to when they see something strange?
00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:52.320
Um, even if they think, hey, that that shouldn't be happening, you shouldn't have fell for that.
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:53.599
What would you say?
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:54.880
Keep talking.
00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:56.639
Tell them our story.
00:41:56.639 --> 00:42:00.079
Tell them that you heard this, you heard that.
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:03.840
I've read this, this is what I found out.
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:33.920
Now, not we do not represent uh the romance scam, which is such a deep thing and very, very painful because the individuals that are ensnared in that have their hearts stolen by an imposter, frequently a celebrity, somebody very, very important, or somebody that's just snagged them on Facebook or social media through dating apps and so on.
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:41.519
Um, and they they do the betrayal over usually much longer times.
00:42:41.519 --> 00:43:05.360
Mine was a pretty long financial scam, but usually even the romance, well, the romance scam is also financial, but the person is in so much love with this person that's just showering them, and then they'll they'll get little nuggets, promise of a visit, promise of gifts.
00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:07.599
Some of them receive gifts.
00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:12.239
Those scams are very, very hard to interrupt.
00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:21.679
And the frequently the children or a partner, somebody, friend, may know that something's going on here.
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:28.880
But even though they warn the individual, their hearts are stolen.
00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:29.280
Yes.
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:57.760
So what what I end up with, uh, the last thing I say when I'm in my presentation is, you know, at the end of my presentation, I just look around the room and I look at everybody in the room, and I just say, there's someone in this room who has been scammed or is currently being scammed who is too embarrassed, humiliated, or ashamed to let anyone know that this is happening to them or has happened to them.
00:43:57.760 --> 00:43:59.519
And I tell them, you cannot.
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:03.519
This alone, you have to talk to someone.
00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:07.840
That's how I close my comments.
00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:09.519
Excellent.
00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:10.159
That's right.
00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:14.559
That's what I'm glad she brought that up because I wanted to address the emotional part.
00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:22.400
I mean, we're sitting here telling our stories and you know, acting normal, and that's not the way it starts out.
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:28.320
And I can speak for myself when that moment that I discovered I'd been scammed, I hated myself.
00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:29.519
I was embarrassed.
00:44:29.519 --> 00:44:30.960
I was humiliated.
00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:32.159
I was numb.
00:44:32.159 --> 00:44:36.960
And I actually, I have said, I did not know how life, I didn't know how to live life.
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:39.360
I was like, I couldn't, I was frozen.
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:51.280
I didn't know how I would talk or walk or and I knew at that moment that I had to talk to somebody else that had this happen to them so that I could be reassured that I could, my my life could go on.
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:55.920
And I found the fraud victim support group probably within two weeks.
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:58.159
And I remember I had not smiled.
00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:00.159
I couldn't find joy in anything.
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:04.719
And I remember when I got to the support group, I saw people smiling and waving to each other.
00:45:04.719 --> 00:45:06.800
And I thought, how could they smile?
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:07.599
That can't be.
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:09.039
I'm not going to ever smile.
00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:12.079
And it was within weeks, or I guess.
00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:14.960
And they will say, because they were both there before me.
00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:20.400
I just all of a sudden one day I realized when I got there and people said hi Dolores, I smiled.
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:23.840
And I thought, wow, it's happening.
00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:27.199
And then the facilitator had talked about the healing journey.
00:45:27.199 --> 00:45:31.119
And I thought then, a healing journey, I hadn't expected that.
00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:32.880
There, I can heal.
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:37.039
But it's so important for people to hear that part.
00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:38.320
So they come forward.
00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:50.639
So not only do I want to help keep this happening from happening to others, but also to help those who have had it happen, because I know that horrible feeling.
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:55.519
And we hear people openly say in our group, I want to kill myself.
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:58.400
They'll even say it, I still want to kill myself.
00:45:58.400 --> 00:46:03.199
And so there's a statistic of how many people commit suicide over this.
00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:20.960
These thieves, these scammers, these, these, these horrible, horrible people get you at your most vulnerable states, whether it's fear, whether it's you want to help someone, whether it's romance, you're lonely, they they know exactly where to get you.
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:23.199
They're extremely sophisticated.
00:46:23.199 --> 00:46:23.679
Yes.
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:25.360
Very sophisticated.
00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:25.760
Yeah.
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:28.559
And and and you're victims.
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:29.519
You're victims.
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:31.840
And and and and you've been violated.
00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:38.639
And so that comes with embarrassment, but it also, like you said, it comes with healing and support is.
00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:40.400
And now we're survivors.
00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:41.280
That's right.
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:42.960
And now you're survivors.
00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:43.760
Yeah.
00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:46.000
A woman actually came up to us.
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:48.639
I don't know if it was all three of us, I don't remember.
00:46:48.639 --> 00:46:57.519
And this was like maybe a month or two ago after our presentation and said, I believe you have saved me because I can see how this could have happened to me.
00:46:57.519 --> 00:47:00.559
And that was like, okay, thank you.
00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:02.960
Now I can I can keep going on some more.
00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:04.000
Yeah.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:17.599
And then people that um have been scammed but have not found the support group have also AARP's broad network is uh, well, I think it's unmatchable.
00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:18.559
Yep, yeah.
00:47:18.559 --> 00:47:23.119
And we all regained our lives through the support groups.
00:47:23.599 --> 00:47:23.760
Yep.
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:26.639
Judith and I came right about the same time.
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:28.639
And I remember when Dolores came.
00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:29.679
I mean she was a mess.
00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:31.199
She was a real mess.
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:31.440
Yeah.
00:47:32.239 --> 00:47:33.679
So it really broke.
00:47:33.679 --> 00:47:35.440
And we just broke broken.
00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:36.480
That's a very good word.
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:37.440
I was solid.
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:39.280
We followed your transition.
00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:42.320
It took months, but little did we know.
00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:45.119
Yeah, this is what was going to happen.
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:45.599
Yeah.
00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:46.559
That's right.
00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:47.679
Thank you.
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:48.480
Thank you all.
00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:50.480
Is there any final words at all?
00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:51.840
No, what about you?
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:54.000
What about me?
00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:54.559
Yeah.
00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:56.239
I was a victim too.
00:47:56.239 --> 00:48:03.039
I got a phone stolen from myself and I work in the the consumer protection.
00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:06.079
Um, my part is a home improvement.
00:48:06.079 --> 00:48:12.960
So I wasn't like, as soon as I bought the phone, I got a phone call that the phone didn't work.
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:14.960
You just got a phone, you just got the phone.
00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:16.000
Yeah, it's not working.
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:16.960
We need to update it.
00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:18.400
We need you to bring it back.
00:48:18.400 --> 00:48:22.159
And so me trying to just run errands, like, okay, I'm gonna go do that.
00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:23.519
I send the phone back.
00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:27.840
And I didn't think of all the red flags that I should have thought of.
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:34.800
First of all, I should have gotten maybe an email and they send me, they'll send me the box so I can send the phone back.
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:37.280
But I went ahead and and sent it.
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:40.159
I didn't look at the email, nothing matched.
00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:42.639
So again, it can happen to anyone.
00:48:42.639 --> 00:48:43.519
Absolutely.
00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:44.079
Yes.
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:45.840
And I was embarrassed.
00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:50.559
I shared my story on the podcast with my coworker.
00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:54.960
I hadn't told anybody, my family knew, and they made fun of me, of course.
00:48:54.960 --> 00:48:58.159
And but again, it's not funny.
00:48:58.159 --> 00:48:58.800
No, it's not funny.
00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:00.320
And and and and and it does.
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:01.199
Manipulation.
00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:02.800
Yes, it's not funny.
00:49:03.679 --> 00:49:08.480
And betrayal, manipulation, betrayal, and then the shame, the self-shame.
00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:13.280
And I had lots and lots of physical symptoms afterwards.
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:14.320
You don't sleep.
00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:15.039
Yes, yeah.
00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:16.880
Your mind is always going.
00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:18.159
And uh yeah.
00:49:18.159 --> 00:49:18.639
Yeah.
00:49:18.639 --> 00:49:26.400
And then the the fallout from taxes and and the family, everybody is affected by it.
00:49:26.400 --> 00:49:26.960
Yes.
00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:31.119
But this will leave life a lifelong scar.
00:49:31.119 --> 00:49:31.440
Yes.
00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:33.679
Just like a physical injury, it does.
00:49:33.679 --> 00:49:37.280
No matter how much we heal and how much we share, that's right.
00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:39.199
That scar will never go away.
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:40.159
Absolutely.
00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:40.960
Absolutely.
00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:47.840
I'll never see my my my phone, my bill, my because I know that I'm paying for that scammer's phone.
00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:51.840
I'm paying for, you know, and and and there's always something that stays with you.
00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:54.400
That sense of vulnerability never goes away.
00:49:54.400 --> 00:49:55.039
That's right.
00:49:55.039 --> 00:49:56.239
That's right.
00:49:56.239 --> 00:49:58.239
Thank you so much, Lady.
00:49:58.239 --> 00:49:59.039
Oh, you're welcome.
00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:00.960
Really appreciate your sensitivity.
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:01.679
Yes.
00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:02.079
Thank you.
00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:03.679
Yes, thank you.
00:50:03.679 --> 00:50:05.280
And don't go anywhere.
00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:11.519
Next, we're joined by Mario Wawrzusin from Montgomery County Adult Protective Services.
00:50:11.519 --> 00:50:26.079
We'll look at the role APS plays in serving vulnerable adults, how they partner with families when something doesn't feel right, and how APS and OCP work together around WEAD to lift community awareness.
00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:37.440
Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and keep an eye out for upcoming episodes where we'll continue to bring you important updates and insights on consumer protection.
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:41.840
Have a topic in mind for a future episode or a question for our team?
00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:45.440
Drop us an email at ConsumerConnection@Montgomery CountyMD.gov.
00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:58.719
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends and family and stay in the loop with OCP by searching the hashtag MCGOCP on social media.
00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:03.599
Remember, knowledge is key for safeguarding your consumer rights.
00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:07.519
Stay informed, stay protected, and stay connected.
00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:09.119
Until next time.
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:17.599
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00:51:17.599 --> 00:51:24.400
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