Foreign Students and Staff at American Universities

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This week on Conservative Crossroads, should there be fewer or
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more limits on foreign students and staff at American universities?
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Jay Green says there should be more limits. Daniel D.
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Martino says there should be fewer limits. Coming up on
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Conservative Crossroads now, welcome back to Conservative Crossroads, the podcast
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where conservatives lean into their differences rather than deny them.
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My name is Henry Olson, Senior fellow at the Ethics
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and Public Policy Center and the host and moderator for
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this program. Today, we have an interesting and fantastic topic.
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Should there be fewer or more limits on the number
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of foreign students and staff that are permitted at US
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universities and encouraged to stay after their education? Jay Green,
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Senior fellow at the Defensive Freedom inst There should be
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more limits. Daniel D. Martino, fellow at the Manhattan Institute
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says there should be fewer. As as usual on this program,
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each person will have a five minute period to make
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opening statements, and then they will mutually question one another
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for about forty minutes. They will then have two minutes
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each to give a closing statement delivered in reverse order.
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Given that we have kind of we don't have a
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yes no topic today we have a fewer versus more.
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I'm going to simply make the decision, and I'm going
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to put Daniel de Martino first to say fewer, followed
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by Jay Green to argue for more. Daniel, you're up.
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So the reason that there should be fewer limits or
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for students is, first, they're already no limits on the
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numerical or the amount or the number of students enrolled
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at US collegists from abroad. So let's start with that
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status quo. That status quo has led to approximately only
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three percent of the American undergraduate population being a foreign student.
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That is not what you are told usually in the
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news when we're talking about the crisis of foreign students
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in American colleges. At the graduate level is much more substantial,
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around ten percent of students, and depending on certain universities,
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some of them are what we will call degree mills.
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Those are like universities catered to foreign students, and there
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are certainly costs associated with this, but there are also
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a lot of benefits that we don't discuss. Number one,
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because most enroyees are public universities. Public universities charged out
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of state tuition to foreign students, bringing in billions to
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American universities from abroad. It is one of the largest
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exports of the United States international education. So Americans benefit
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by the fact that money's flowing in from abroad to
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pay and employee hundreds of thousands of Americas over three
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hundred thousand that work at these universities. Number Two, it's
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an issue of selection, what kind of imag and does
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America want, certainly immigrants that speak English, immigrants that are
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going to earn money, and not the pendent welfare immigrants
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that are not going to commit crimes. And turns out
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that through the American university system, foreign students are the
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best way to select who gets to stay and who
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gets to go, because by coming to American being exposed
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during their education, they can try to apply for jobs,
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employers are exposed to them. They pick the ones that
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want to sponsor to remain and those who don't leave,
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which is the majority of them. But by selecting from
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the university system, you get the advantage of testing them.
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This is a group of the population that commits essentially
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no crime. And while there are also risks, right you
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will hear about spies, you will hear about still no
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intellectual property and things related to this. The truth is
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that it is extremely minimal and present with all immigration categories.
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If you think China is not paying American born citizens,
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you're not looking at what's really happening. And of course
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everybody who is a concert should support limits on spies,
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on eliminating that we should try to stop anybody who
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is a CCP agent or CCP member, Right, that's not
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what you want to welcome into any Western country. But
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it's also true that we don't want limits on anybody
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who is not a security threat. As it works now,
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the system has benefited Americans tremendously. The truth is, if
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we reduce the number of foreign students in American colleges,
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thousands of colleges couldn't up closing. We're already in a
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demographic disaster. We will lose many jobs, American jobs, and
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we would select immigrants in a much worse way. How
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else are we going to select immigrants through family ties,
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through luck? If anything, we need to make the system
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more welcoming of the exact type of immigrant that would
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make a good American and would benefit the American economy.
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And what would that mean, Well, there's already some slight
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benefits through the H one B system for foreign students,
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but there should be more. How could we do that
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well the immigration system. Instead of selecting through family ties,
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it should select through employment, which would overwhelmingly benefit foreign
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students in the United States. I think for a way
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would be actually what President Trump has done. The H
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one BF applies only to people coming from abroad, not
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from American colleges. So actually President Trump has mechanically, even
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if not intentionally, benefited foreign students through the H one
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BF by allowing them to be axempted from that. And
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I think the final question here is there will be
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a lot of arguments in this debate about whether foreign
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students take the spots of American students. The evidences the opposite,
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because for and students pay much more intuition. The reality
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is that they subsidize American students who receive scholarships from
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this tuition revenue. The MBA program and the fornch students
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in underground programs are the cash go of American universities.
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And if you have a problem with the American university system,
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for students are not the way to fix it. It's
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the educational regulations. And I agree that there are problems
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with American universities. They're just not caused by the for
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in students, but by our own American woke be a recrets.
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So I live it there.
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Thank you, Daniel, Jay, it's your turn.
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Thanks for having on this show. It's wonderful talking with
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Daniel about these issues. So let me first acknowledge that
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foreign students and staff contribute valuable skill, knowledge, and energy
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to us kind of education. So they are beneficial. But
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like with everything in public policy, it's a question of balance.
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We have to balance that benefit against other risks and
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dangers that those people may pose. And it's important to
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keep in mind that at universities, PERSONNELI is policy. Who
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is there helps shape the values and priorities of those institutions,
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and American universities are have a traditional mission to educate
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American leaders. They're the leaders of American corporations, the leaders
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of American governmental institutions, cultural institutions. All come from our
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university system, particularly our selective universities, and so the type
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of education, the type of values that they're exposed to, matters.
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And while foreign students and staff bringing valuable skills, they
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also bring with them either an indifference to at a
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high they're more likely to be indifferent to American political
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institutions or even hostile than American students, and the reason
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for this is that they don't grow up there educated
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in the American political system, and on average, are less
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likely to be familiar with the characteristics of the American
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political system and its values, and so on average, if
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you dramatically increase the numbers of foreign students and staffing universities,
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you will begin to reorient those institutions away from an
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embrace of the American political system and its values and
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more towards either indifference or outright hostility. And so to
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maintain a balance, we have to keep some limits. And
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the reason why we have to keep some limits is
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that currently we have no limits on foreigners entering American
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higher education. So the number of F one visas that
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can be issued is uncapped. As many can come as
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want to come, and it's not very difficult to come
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to find an American university that will admit you. There
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is someone somewhere that will take everyone, and so of
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all the people around the world if they want to
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come and work and stay in the US, the easiest
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way in that is completely unlimited is with an F
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one visa. Now the bulk of them, two thirds of
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the F one visas are in graduate school. They are
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not undergraduates. So it's important to think of them really
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as workers running the universities, not as students. Graduate students
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do all the great basic operations of universities. They teach
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the intro classes, they run the labs, they do all
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the stuff that faculty are supposed to do but decided
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they don't want to do anymore. So they have essentially
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cheap foreign workers, essentially the great pickers of higher education,
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that they've imported into graduate school to run universities. And
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so the university enrollment in graduate school is increasingly foreigned,
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especially in our selective universities. And I believe, for example,
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it's pushing half of the graduate enrollment is from abroad.
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And so these institutions have shifted very heavily towards a
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global rather than an American perspective. In addition, as Daniel
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pointed out, we have facilitated the movement from F one
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visa into H one visa in universities. Now only is
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there no fee for H one B if you convert
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from F one to H one B. But also the
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number of H one b's that university's can sponsor is unlimited.
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And because now it's strictly capped. For for profit companies
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there are eighty five thousand a year, there's a lottery.
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They're very hard to get. But universities can hire as
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many H one B visas as they like.
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Now.
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The result of cap very strictly capping foreigners entry in
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the US in every way but higher education, is that
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we're pushing foreigners into higher education, like squeezing the balloon.
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Where they pop out is in a higher education. And
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so it's resulted in twenty two percent of our faculty
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being foreign born. Twenty eight percent of universities have been
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led by a foreign born president in the last decade.
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This is this shift in the orientation of the universities
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has altered their priorities. Now keeping in mind that American
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universities not only have this traditional mission of helping inculcate
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American values in future generations, but also are heavily subsidized
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by the public. If they wish to continue receiving that
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public subsidy, they're really going to have to address this
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shift in orientation away from American political values towards global values,
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and so we have to think of foreign students not
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simply as economic assets, but as political risks as well.
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Thank you Jay, Thank you Daniel. And now we are
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onto the questioning phase of our program. Who wants to
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go first?
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I'll go first. Well, first, I agree with a lot
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of the things you said, even if I reach a
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different conclusion. Jay. One of the things that I think
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you mentioned, but I think I wonder if you agree
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with me on this. You mentioned that the mission is
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to educate American leaders, but would you agree that it's
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also a good thing if America influences foreign leaders.
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It is, But and interestingly, the design of the F
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one visa historically was that we would import a modest
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number of elites from abroad who would receive higher education
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in the US and then go home. They would go home,
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and we would export our values to their countries. But
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at critical mass when when the total foreign enrollment in
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the IVY League is a third, okay, and in.
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Graduating graduate programs.
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And the reason, the reason for that this matters is
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that rather than inculcating foreigners and American values, we are
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now inculcating American students in foreign values.
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OK, So let's talk about that of the F one visa.
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So let's talk about the GRAPH programs then, because it
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is about the GRAP programs. At the undergrad level, I
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mean in the Ivy League, at least I know about
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Columbia's numbers is like under ten percent. But at the
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grad level, your right is high. Will tell you my
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experience doing a PhD in economy at Colombia from knowing
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the admissions process, I'm talking with the people there. The
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truth is Americas barely applied to PhD programs in this country.
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It's not even that they are, not that they're being rejected,
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is that their number of applications is very low. So
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if we say, okay, then don't admit foreign students, then
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it simply means, Josh, don't graduate people in this world.
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Let me be clear, I'm not talking about banning. I'm
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just talking about imposing limits. So I think a very
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reasonable limit would be something like fifteen percent of total
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enrollment at an institution from abroad. Seems like a reasonable
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limit that would actually leave most universities unaffected. But among
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our elite universities that are training most of our future leaders,
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we are well about the fifteen percent of total enrollment,
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not of undergraduate but of total enrollment. Now as to
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the relative mix, why are there are so many applicants
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from abroad for grad school relative to Americans? And the
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reason is because the the compensation so and remember grad
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students well by the workers and and and very often
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they're being paid stipends and UH and not generating tuition revenue.
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And also I should emphasize that elite at elite university's
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tuition as a whole is not very material, and especially
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tuition from graduate students is really not material.
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Well, tuition from m b A UH is pretty material
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a lot of the business schools, the.
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Business school, sure, but for Columbia or for Harvard, you know, Columbia,
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graduate tuition from foreigners is is is not an important
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source of their total revenue. But but the reason why
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why foreigners are so attracted to this is because they
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want into the US, and they want into the US
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because it's great here. And I love the fact that
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it's great there, and I totally understand why they want
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to get in here, but they're willing to endure basically
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really subpar wages. Living six to a shared house in
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Cambridge Massachusetts, which thinks I can tell you from personal experience,
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and and so you know, Americans look at that and
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they think I'd rather go into finance.
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Okay, So I'll disagree there. And I disagree there in
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part because I was also a grass student on a stipend.
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And so it's not true it's six in a house
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or whatever. It was three in our cases roopmates. But
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that's a common Manhattan thing, to be fair, it has
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nothing to do with being necessarily grad student. And the stipends,
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in my opinion, were pretty fine for a PhD in economics.
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In fact, if you ask most people, they don't know
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that PhDs are free and they come with a stipend.
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They think that you need to pay for them. Most
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Americans have asked me that and like, oh, how much
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did you pad? I never paid a dollar they paid me,
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And so I think there's an information issue here. Americans
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are actually much more likely to go into programs they're
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actually very expensive, and I'm going to programs that don't
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pay off, such as those in the social scienes than
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in STEM. So I don't think it's a stipend issue.
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I think it's a preference issue too, And certainly it's
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true what you say about you know, it's they want
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access to the United States. Obviously, I don't see that
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as a as a bad thing. The question is.
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Visa is for At that point, visa is not an
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immigration route. It was designed to bring in a small
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number of foreign leads.
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Well, but this is a normal question. It's what it
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should be for, right, I think it should be for
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the benefit of the United States. I'm making the case here.
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My case is it's good if they learn and they
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like America and they go back. It's also good if
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they like America they are productive workers and they stay.
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Both things can be beneficial to the United States.
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So the question is how do we I understand your
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argument for meritocratic selection. That the kind of attractive thing
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about having higher education as the primary conduit for a
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million foreigners with F one visas one point two million
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coming in. So there are two problems with that. One
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is that we're not selecting them, They're selecting themselves. Okay,
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Now there's a little bit of universities, there's a little
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bit of positive selection, and that they have to be
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able to enroll in the university, so they have to
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have some resources and they have to be able to speak,
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but otherwise there's there's no limit on their ability to
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come in there, select themselves in there is a college
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or university in the US that will take them. So
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they're purchasing their way in.
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Okay, well that's a lot of positive selection. Jay purchasing
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the way.
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It's some positive selection. But they are choosing themselves. While
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if Google or Amazon we're hiring them, then US employers
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would be choosing them for their skills.
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Yesses are not choosing them. Oh, I agree, But they
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only get to stay the employer chooses them for their skills,
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which is my entire argument, right, I don't want them
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to stay if an employer does not select them.
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Because they don't have to go from the university to Google.
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They could go. They can get into the university and
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stay at the university. That's my whole point is they
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never leave the university.
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Well, yeah, true, rate.
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Because because the university can can hire them without limit
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and then h one visa upon completion.
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The university's hire is for professors and that's fine. No
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staff of all kinds well all kinds of staff. Yeah,
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that's true. But even as you mentioned, I mean despite
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or incredible immigration law references. For university hiring of immigrants,
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it's under a order of the staff is foreign, which
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is less than Silicon Valley. That that's all the limits, right,
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So it's not really the case. My concern, which is
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I think one you share is people like murt Khalio
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that are perpetual students, like ten years as an undergrad.
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I'm sorry, like even for grad school, that's too much.
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That their actual goal is to undermine the United States.
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That has to end, of course.
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So there are two different types that would be worrisome.
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There's the kind of a type of foreigner who comes
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in who's really just indifferent to American political values, that
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doesn't know anything about them, doesn't really care, Okay, and
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that's actually fairly common. I think the number of active
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saboteurs hostile is small, but they're extra dangerous. So when
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the total number of foreigners in higher education, so at
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one VISUS it's one point two million students.
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But that's the actual number of students, it is about
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eight hundred and something thousand. Now, by the way, well
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I just looked it up. It's because you were counting
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people on opt who are workers.
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But I think we have to count them, but I'll
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get to that. But it's it's so so with one
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it's one point two million with with an F one visa.
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OPT also has F one visa, so let's we'll talk
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about that in a second. But with one point two
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million people with an F one visa even and we
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have to worry about fat tales. So a tail of
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radicals begins to get large enough that they can make
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actual trouble, okay, because there's a critical mass of them,
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particularly in elite institutions where the total percentage of foreigners
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is a third of the institution.
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So those universities select on purpose those radicals. It's not
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really about the number of foreigners, it's about those specific people.
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So the problem is that when that As an economist,
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I'm sure you'll appreciate that when when an item is
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not scarce, there's no rational it.
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Yeah, but I think that they're high up in the
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priority lease. I think if you put the cap and
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if binds in Colombia, they're still going to select from
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wood kalil.
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So when when foreigners, when there's no limit on F
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one visas, universities have no reason to engage in any
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due diligence about who they are. We don't care. We
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just take them. They come in there. There are great pickers.
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It's fantastic. It's cheap, wonderful labor for them. It cost
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nothing or is free to them, and or you know,
358
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cost nothing is cheap for them and the But if
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we were to impose a cap, let's say fifteen percent
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of the institution could be from abroad, the universities would
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actually engage in due diligence.
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What you were saying that they don't do due diligence.
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But their admission rate is very low. This is not
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like a free range where that you submit people and
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they want cheap labor. They have a very low admissions rate,
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so they do do do legions. The problems is that
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their diligence is that they want to select radicals, and
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that's an entirely different problem, and education not an immigration problem.
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So in graduate schools, the limit is only the number
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of stipends that they have. That's that's the only limit
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in programs where they offer stipends. Now, in many programs
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they'll have a two class system, people with stipens and
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people not, and foreigners will take the ones not and
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and Another odd characteristic of the AFUE visa is that
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it prevents those foreign students from working anywhere but at
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their university. Yes, now they work at their universities because
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they want to make some money, you know, either because
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their stipends are low and they're trying to supplement, or
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because they don't have a stipend and have some costs
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and they have no other way of earning an income.
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They can't work anywhere else, so they work at their universities.
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So this is a captured pool, well.
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Restriction that is in universities. I'm in favor. And by
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the way, this is part of my answer, right, I
385
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don't think it may I should be captured at higher education.
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I think it's a problem that higher education is given
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a benefit over say Silicon Valley. I would want to
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reduce the restrictions so that they can be more likely
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to start a business and select more entrepreneurs rather than
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people focused on higher education.
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So we may have some agreement there, I think because
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because the odd unintended side effect of strictly capping foreigners
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entry in the labor force in the US in every
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industry except higher education, is steering foreigners into higher education
395
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in excessive values and by a stream character of higher education.
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And if we made the restrictions level between all other
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industry and higher education, then there'd be no reason for
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every smart foreigner to go into and instead they would
399
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be going into other industry and the numbers would come down.
400
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And so I'd be perfectly happy with with increasing limits
401
00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:13.319
on foreigners and higher education to bring them down and rate,
402
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and relaxing limits in other industries so that we have
403
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higher education and other industry fighting on a more level
404
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playing field. So, for example, we have eighty five thousand,
405
00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:28.039
h one BVS is available every year for pieces companies,
406
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but no limit on universities. And by the way, with
407
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the no limit, the numbers fucked up, which is exactly what.
408
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You'd expect, I think. I think the average is joints
409
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:40.599
right now is about one hundred and twenty thousand, including
410
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those including non profits. So I would agree absolutely with
411
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saying we're going to change the cap to one hundred
412
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and twenty thousand, and we're going to do everybody is
413
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included in the COP and we're going to do our
414
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COP well. I would prefer a wege ranking, of course,
415
00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:01.200
but yeah, but at eleven not playing field we.
416
00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:03.559
Can optimize how the lottery is done, but it seems
417
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like the university should compete in the same lottery as Google.
418
00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:11.880
Yes, so that is interesting. It's not just universities though,
419
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:15.079
it's all non profits. So hospitals are are actually their
420
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public schools, a lot of other things. Yes, there is
421
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an argument though that the research is one of the
422
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greatest outputs here, and that's useful. I think on the
423
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issue of values, which is my understanding, is your main
424
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concern right, yes, valuus issue. Maybe this is my experience.
425
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:37.400
I want to know if you have a different one.
426
00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:40.759
But in my experience it was the native born Americas
427
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:42.960
that were the most left wing in my graduate program,
428
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:48.160
because actually the foreigners were more indifferent and the Americans
429
00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:52.759
a driver schools in the United States are essentially Marxists already.
430
00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:57.279
Sure, so I think the reason why you have that
431
00:25:57.319 --> 00:26:04.440
impression is because again, graduate school is relatively unattractive to
432
00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:10.559
native born Americans, Okay, because it takes a very long
433
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:15.000
time to get a PhD. The stipend while working for
434
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:20.759
that is barely enough to live, and then the expected
435
00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:25.559
earnings upon completion is low. The probability of getting jobs
436
00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:28.279
in academia is low. It's just not a very attractive
437
00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:31.880
career path for native born Americans. And so smart native
438
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:36.240
born Americans are drawn towards every other kind of industry
439
00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:39.720
and not towards academia. And so who of the native
440
00:26:39.720 --> 00:26:42.839
born Americans will go into PhD programs that you would
441
00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:47.279
then encounter them at Columbia. They're crazies, right, So people
442
00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:52.839
with high who who assign a high value to pursuing
443
00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:57.880
some ideological agenda, they think the low compensation of academia
444
00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:00.960
sounds great because they're thrilled that someone's paying them at all,
445
00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:03.839
given that they're otherwise socially dysfunctioning.
446
00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:08.000
Now, Jay, isn't that an argument in favor of the
447
00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:11.000
foreigners still, because you're saying that the foreigners who are
448
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:15.680
attracted are the smart ones. They don't hate America. So
449
00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:17.640
that's a great selection mechanism.
450
00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:23.440
No. So, so the the the the problem is that
451
00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:28.200
we have overproduction. We have over enrollment of graduate students
452
00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:31.119
in general. And the reason why we have so many
453
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:34.359
is because there's just a huge number of foreigners willing
454
00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:36.720
to do it because this is the only way into
455
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:37.160
the US.
456
00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:39.960
Okay, So I'll say that number, that number has been
457
00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:47.200
falling since the pandemic significantly. The absolute number of students
458
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:49.960
enrolled foreign students enrolled in American universities has been a
459
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:50.400
number of.
460
00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:52.920
F one visas actually has continued to go up. And
461
00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:54.559
so we may we.
462
00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:57.039
Can verify if you want right now, because I'm pretty
463
00:27:57.039 --> 00:27:59.559
sure it's the number of F one visas has also fallen,
464
00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:04.160
because even the number of people on OPT is falling.
465
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:07.640
This is all in part since twenty nineteen because of
466
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:11.319
Trump's crackdown, and then the pandemic happened, and then the.
467
00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:13.960
By administration they loosened up and it ramped up again.
468
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:17.000
No, even Chinese too, and is even during Biden have
469
00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:17.960
continued to fall.
470
00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:21.480
I think Chinese enrollment has relatively begun.
471
00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:23.640
And the issue with Indians, which is the other leading
472
00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:26.720
country of origin, is that they faced decades long way,
473
00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:29.640
you know, baglows for employment based visa. So I think
474
00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:32.039
we should fact check this one, right.
475
00:28:31.960 --> 00:28:38.480
I can, I can. Yeah. I have a graduate and
476
00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:46.359
undergraduate new enrollment here in front of me from the Open.
477
00:28:46.119 --> 00:28:52.160
Doors, which is the statement source, and the number of
478
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:58.759
graduate students was one hundred and twenty thousand in twenty nineteen.
479
00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:01.160
It did dropped precipitously in.
480
00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:05.240
Twenty twenty to sixty six thousand, but then spike back
481
00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:08.200
up to one hundred and forty six thousand, then one
482
00:29:08.279 --> 00:29:11.400
hundred and sixty eight thousand in twenty two, than one
483
00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:14.519
hundred and seventy six thousand in twenty twenty three, so
484
00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:17.319
much higher than it was in twenty nineteen.
485
00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:20.079
And then in twenty four it drops back down to
486
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:23.319
one fifty, but still thirty thousand higher than it was
487
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:27.279
in twenty nineteen. That's just new graduate in enrollment.
488
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:31.960
That's new graduate enrollment to graduate enrollment, not undergrad including.
489
00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:37.359
The undergrad has has Look, the undergraduate enrollment has been
490
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:39.279
barely budged in a long time.
491
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:43.279
So you agree with me that undergraduate enrollment he's not
492
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:44.920
up problem.
493
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.480
I think the numbers are much lower and the concentrations
494
00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:53.160
are much less concerning almost everywhere except outside of various
495
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:57.519
selective institutions where it is potentially problematic. So I think
496
00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:01.480
undergraduate enrollment is a problem in those institutions, but as
497
00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:04.480
a whole is not. And then remember two thirds of
498
00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:08.519
all F one visas of who students are in graduate school.
499
00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:14.359
Yeah, and so you worry is about values, not economics.
500
00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:18.960
The staff, the people who run the universities, which include
501
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:23.680
graduate students, yes, and OPT which is the optional practical
502
00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:28.079
training program, and H one B visas. These are the
503
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:31.759
three categories, and then all of those people who eventually
504
00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:34.519
convert into having Green cards and being citizens over time.
505
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:37.559
But the way they came in was through F one.
506
00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:40.920
And you think that putting a cap on total and
507
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:42.279
Rollman is want to fix that.
508
00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:49.400
It will so right now, universities have an incentive to
509
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:54.640
enroll as many graduate F one visa holders as want
510
00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:58.799
to come, because they're the great pickers who run their universities.
511
00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:01.160
If you put a.
512
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:01.960
Cap on that.
513
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:07.680
They wouldn't admit more Americans. They might actually just have
514
00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:12.599
less scut work, they might have less gophers, they might
515
00:31:13.160 --> 00:31:15.960
have in forbid, actually make the faculty do more work.
516
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:18.640
And I know.
517
00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:25.519
With the faculty though, which is foreign. So the faculty.
518
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:31.279
Is increasingly foreign because we've built this pipeline where the
519
00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:33.759
only way into the US is in higher ED and
520
00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:38.279
the only way to stay without difficulty is in higher ED.
521
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:43.079
You can move into interest. So all the economic benefits
522
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:46.519
that you were excited about are of people who can
523
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:49.240
move into industry, but they face lots of limits moving
524
00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:53.480
from universities into industry, but no limits staying at universities.
525
00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:00.480
So they stay, and they're changing their restaffing university and
526
00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:04.400
in every kind of position at universities. Now, many of
527
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:09.119
them are perfectly fine, hard working, good people, but many
528
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:12.200
of them are indifferent to American political systems and values.
529
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:15.160
Don't you think that the Americans are too m hmm,
530
00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:17.319
don't you think that the Americans are too?
531
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:18.440
So?
532
00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:19.960
Some are some aren't.
533
00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:25.279
I think that that.
534
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:26.960
That I haven't seen any piece of evidence, for example,
535
00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:31.839
that the foreign students are worse when it comes to
536
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:34.839
their views of the United States than the Americans. A
537
00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:37.720
ruled in their institutions, so they.
538
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:40.880
Will certainly be less familiar with I think. I think
539
00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:41.519
that it is.
540
00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:44.640
It is potentially potentially not because it's a self selected
541
00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:47.359
group of people who came to America. I mean, you
542
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:50.279
would be surprised the little knowledge that people have about
543
00:32:50.920 --> 00:32:52.160
their own country.
544
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:58.920
I understand that, but but but they're there is an average.
545
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:02.240
I understand there's wide variation both among people born in
546
00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:06.440
America and people from abroad, but on average, you would
547
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:11.079
expect people to have an affiliation with and feel identity
548
00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:16.319
with and have affection for the place where they're born,
549
00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:21.519
and which is perfectly natural. And I don't you know,
550
00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:25.680
I'm not in any way upset that people would have
551
00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:31.200
this very natural orientation. And that's perfectly fine for people
552
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:33.440
who arrive in the United States to have this affection
553
00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:38.039
for their home country, which is why we might want
554
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:42.480
to keep it lumited enough so that it doesn't create
555
00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:48.640
American institutions populated by people with affection for other places. Right,
556
00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:51.680
that would be that would be unhealthy for America.
557
00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:55.319
I would say I find at a leading stitution because
558
00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:57.400
I think that all of these problems that you mentioned
559
00:33:57.480 --> 00:33:59.559
are not a problem at your average state who are
560
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:03.440
city at least not related to foreign rolled money? Is
561
00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:03.880
that right?
562
00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:09.159
It will be over time, not yet, because the problem is, remember,
563
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:15.199
we're squeezing this balloon like restrictions everywhere, but in higher end.
564
00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:17.719
And I can tell you from having been on the fact,
565
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:20.840
you know, professor at the University of Arkansas. Over time
566
00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:25.719
in our Department of Education Reform PhD program in Education policy,
567
00:34:27.079 --> 00:34:30.400
like half of our students were coming from abroad. And
568
00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:36.960
what did Bangladesh care about charter schools in the US.
569
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:39.800
They really didn't, but they just wanted in, you know,
570
00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:42.719
and they do. They know what Arkansas is no, and
571
00:34:42.880 --> 00:34:48.079
don't care. It's a way in and we right, of course,
572
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:51.159
they prefer being at more selective institutions. That's where they
573
00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:55.639
come first. But the other thing is that without limits,
574
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:59.119
the relative skill of the people who come in will
575
00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:03.519
begin to go down. Right, So with scarcity is good,
576
00:35:03.679 --> 00:35:04.599
limits are good.
577
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:07.199
You know, I understand what you're saying, And what I
578
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:11.440
would say is I definitely want a system that selects
579
00:35:12.039 --> 00:35:16.159
great people that are productive, not average people. People that
580
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:19.039
speak English. I think there's a huge English proficiency issue
581
00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:22.920
among graduate foreign students, I'll say, And so I'm totally
582
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:26.000
fine with like qualitative limits, say like, yes, you actually
583
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:28.239
need to get admitted to a graduate program, you need
584
00:35:28.280 --> 00:35:30.440
to take the top full and get a certain score.
585
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:38.719
Unfortunately, there's but I'll say, out of the institutions, utterly institutions,
586
00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:41.639
they do make you take the grey and then you.
587
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:43.960
Do need to get a top score together there so
588
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:47.480
there's not a quality problem. I think the problem is
589
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:52.840
about values, and I think the limits entenrollment are not
590
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:56.119
going to change that. I think that because the reason
591
00:35:56.199 --> 00:35:59.000
that it is happening has nothing to do with scarcity
592
00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:00.760
and everything to do with the violers to the people
593
00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:04.119
who lead American higher educational institutions, which are actually against
594
00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:07.440
the United States. I'm pro global, They're explicitly pro global.
595
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:11.719
So keep in mind the limits I'm describing are not draconian.
596
00:36:11.880 --> 00:36:16.400
Fifteen percent of total enrollment seems like a very reasonable
597
00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:23.039
limit that would leave most institutions unaffected, but would alter
598
00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:27.079
our most selective institutions that are far above fifteen percent.
599
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:32.800
And you know, again, scarcity is good because it provides
600
00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:35.360
incentives for due diligence on the part of the universities
601
00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:37.639
to make sure that they're not bringing in people who
602
00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:39.159
will make problems for them.
603
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:41.719
Now you may think I think that they want to
604
00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:42.239
bring people.
605
00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:46.000
No, I think you're misunderstanding who the they is here.
606
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:51.960
So senior leaders at universities are not radicals. They are
607
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:56.159
bland bureaucrats who are simply trying to figure out how
608
00:36:56.199 --> 00:37:00.519
to attract glory and revenue to their institutions. And they're
609
00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:05.239
very fearful of you know, so faculty can harass them,
610
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:10.199
but they'll they'll they'll do things to avoid hassles if
611
00:37:10.280 --> 00:37:12.920
you made them engage in due diligence about the students
612
00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:14.440
who are coming in and they would select the ones
613
00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:16.440
who are going to bring revenue and glory to their
614
00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:21.000
institutions and avoid heartaches and trouble. But if there's no limit,
615
00:37:21.039 --> 00:37:24.639
then they don't put energy. Are the situations and the
616
00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:28.119
US government cannot vat one point two.
617
00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:30.960
Million people, Well, it can, It definitely can, and it does.
618
00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:32.679
It bets much more because it does.
619
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:37.559
It's not very good at it. I mean, it's extremely hard.
620
00:37:37.880 --> 00:37:41.199
I think President Trump showed that if you actually try,
621
00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:44.360
you do. The problem is people didn't try in many ways,
622
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:48.119
and foreign students it's not like they're committing crimes or
623
00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:51.400
anything in numbers, if.
624
00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:53.800
Not crimes that I'm worried about. What I'm worried about
625
00:37:54.119 --> 00:38:01.000
is the institutions that make the American political system successful
626
00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:02.880
and thrive over time.
627
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:08.000
You mean ideological wedding, Yes, yeah, I mean I'm in
628
00:38:08.039 --> 00:38:10.039
favor of that, and they're doing it. They're social media
629
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:11.840
wedding now, right.
630
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:16.079
But the students are smart, they know this, so.
631
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:19.559
I'm not sure. I think many of them have proved
632
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:22.800
that that they're caught. And in fact, all of the
633
00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:26.079
people who have been problematic have been obvious cases that
634
00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:27.239
could have been caught.
635
00:38:28.119 --> 00:38:30.599
Right, and look, there will there will be the Trump
636
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:31.960
administration will end.
637
00:38:33.559 --> 00:38:37.119
Absolutely. But then so but this is that's the policy
638
00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:39.119
question that we need to call. If I were, I
639
00:38:39.159 --> 00:38:41.239
agree with you, we need ideological bedding.
640
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:46.239
We can institute reasonable and reasonable limits like fifteen percent, but.
641
00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:48.840
That is not a quantity limit the issue though.
642
00:38:50.119 --> 00:38:53.119
So so in two thousand and eight, we had just
643
00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:56.880
under seven hundred thousand F one visuals okay, and now
644
00:38:56.960 --> 00:38:59.880
we have one point two as of twenty twenty four, okay.
645
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:05.960
And universities functioned very well. We had really top talent.
646
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:12.320
They were were impressive institutions producing advances and knowledge, and
647
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:15.119
so there's it's not obvious that.
648
00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:19.239
They wouldn't be for you, And it's why not one
649
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:21.880
point eight or why not three point eight?
650
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:23.760
What what limit would there be?
651
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:25.519
It's not going to go up to three point eight,
652
00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:29.400
that's not the question. In fact, no, I mean, demographically,
653
00:39:29.480 --> 00:39:31.760
the entire world is agent there's going to be a
654
00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:35.360
smaller supply of even people to want to come to America,
655
00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:37.760
and there's no supply of Americas.
656
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:41.400
There's no limit, and F one visa there's already there.
657
00:39:41.800 --> 00:39:44.719
You know, over seven billion people in the world. The
658
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:49.199
people with resources and minimal talent to enroll in the
659
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:50.199
US university.
660
00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:54.639
But we're not hypothetically that's already the case. There are
661
00:39:54.679 --> 00:39:56.760
already more than a billion people in the world. There
662
00:39:56.760 --> 00:39:59.960
are already people with resources, and we don't have million
663
00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:01.000
of people doing so.
664
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:05.159
We had a seventy five percent increase between two thousand
665
00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:07.800
and eight and twenty twenty four in the number of
666
00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:11.239
F one visas. So at that rate of there's nothing
667
00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:14.159
slowing it down. There's that if that rate of increase
668
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:18.719
you could have. And mind you, US universities are also
669
00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:22.960
experiencing a birth dearth among us, right, so they're going
670
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:25.480
to increasingly want to make up for the loss of
671
00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:26.400
the American state.
672
00:40:26.519 --> 00:40:28.159
That is true that the birth dearth.
673
00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:29.760
By importing more foreigners.
674
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:33.280
So that now you're going to go up in.
675
00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:37.239
American universities, including in state universities in Alabama.
676
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:40.400
Now you understand that if it doesn't go up, then
677
00:40:40.599 --> 00:40:43.039
we're going to lose hundreds of thousands of jobs, right
678
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:45.119
because these universities are going to coub.
679
00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:50.119
We have gross over investment in higher education. Some shrinkage
680
00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:52.679
in that industry might be a healthy correction.
681
00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:55.679
Well, but whatever you I don't know if you want
682
00:40:55.719 --> 00:40:58.079
to say over investment, but this is foreign money paying
683
00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:00.440
for it. So if we don't do that, them people
684
00:41:01.639 --> 00:41:03.599
a specialist, A.
685
00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:07.559
Lot of them are receiving stipends. They're being paid right there.
686
00:41:07.639 --> 00:41:11.119
They're not. They're not so so they are consuming now.
687
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:15.800
But that's not the we're onely majority of brathers students,
688
00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:18.280
which is master's to is paying for it.
689
00:41:18.440 --> 00:41:20.519
They are not. The majority of graduate.
690
00:41:20.119 --> 00:41:22.960
Students are the majority of ratis students.
691
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:26.760
They are, they are, But remember they they then work
692
00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:32.039
at their universities again as chief labor, because they need
693
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:33.920
to have the money to pay for that, and the
694
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:41.039
only place they can work is at the university.
695
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:42.559
Of the staff seventy eight percent of the staff.
696
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:49.599
Of professors. That but but increasingly professors are a tiny
697
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:53.800
part of universities. They're populated by all these other people
698
00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:57.960
who are the helpers and gophers and assistants and so on,
699
00:41:58.360 --> 00:41:59.320
and they're forearmers.
700
00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:03.119
Well, I should look at the status of this because
701
00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:04.840
that's not what I've seen.
702
00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:08.280
There are four million total people who work in higher
703
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:12.360
education in the US, okay, and net job growth in
704
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:15.920
higher education has been very meager for the last two decades.
705
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:19.760
It's about ten thousand a year of new jobs being
706
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:23.920
created in net new jobs in higher education, and recently
707
00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:27.360
it's begun to shrink. Okay, yet the number of H
708
00:42:27.400 --> 00:42:32.880
one bbs is being offered by universities is now sixteen
709
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:36.639
thousand a year. So we are hiring more foreigners than
710
00:42:36.840 --> 00:42:38.199
create new jobs.
711
00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:40.880
What do you think is, well, that's not really then
712
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:44.199
more foreigners because there's people who leave the university too
713
00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:46.440
that you're not counting there in the H one b SE.
714
00:42:48.039 --> 00:42:50.280
That's the number, that's the inflow. You're not counting there
715
00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:50.880
the flow.
716
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:51.599
That's the flow.
717
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:55.079
Yeah, so you're comparing NetFlow vers is just inflow there.
718
00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:59.880
So that's why it's honorgous. But the truth is, if
719
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:02.679
we reduce the number of foreign students by one hundreds
720
00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:06.199
of thousands, American colonies who close, and that would mean
721
00:43:06.239 --> 00:43:09.320
flying the American workers do. And the problem is not
722
00:43:09.480 --> 00:43:11.840
even want the ologists that I have. In fact, I
723
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:14.840
don't think colleges are the main problem. I think be
724
00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:17.760
the rest of the economy that would lose the people
725
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:19.880
that are selected into employment maze basis.
726
00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:23.360
I don't think we should be in we should no
727
00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:27.400
more protect jobs in American universities.
728
00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:29.920
Well, I'm not saying they need a privilege, but what
729
00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:33.400
you're saying is to limit them, to destroy them through
730
00:43:33.400 --> 00:43:34.360
government policy.
731
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:37.840
No. No, we should have as many as we need
732
00:43:37.880 --> 00:43:41.280
for their purpose in America, and their purpose is to
733
00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:47.960
train the future leaders of our country economically and culturally
734
00:43:48.119 --> 00:43:51.480
and governmentally, and that's what we need them for.
735
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:53.800
I mean, I agree, I just don't agree with that
736
00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:55.519
cap with an arbitrary number.
737
00:43:57.480 --> 00:44:00.280
I'm just trying to think of what's the tipping point
738
00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:05.519
where the intellectual exchange, where the value cultural exchange goes
739
00:44:05.599 --> 00:44:09.639
from us exporting our values to other countries, to other
740
00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:15.079
countries importing their values into into our elite. And I'd
741
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:19.639
say about fifteen percent is probably a tipping point. Look,
742
00:44:19.719 --> 00:44:22.239
I mean, if you it is arbitrary, if you say
743
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:26.519
twelve or ten, I'd be happy to. When I was
744
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:31.000
enrolled in college, it was very common in selective universities
745
00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:35.159
to have between five and ten percent of their enrollment
746
00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:37.480
from abroad. So you know, in a matter of.
747
00:44:37.480 --> 00:44:42.639
Most universities, second, most universities are five to ten percent.
748
00:44:43.559 --> 00:44:47.519
That's right, that's right. But but in our most selective
749
00:44:47.559 --> 00:44:48.880
institutions that are.
750
00:44:48.760 --> 00:44:51.159
The one you mentioned that your problem is with the
751
00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:53.800
grant programs, not the total enrollments. So I mean, it
752
00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:55.760
just feels like this is a big hammer with a
753
00:44:55.840 --> 00:44:59.480
very arbitrary number one or entire problem. I'm happy to
754
00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:03.119
have a little people I wanted to handle.
755
00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:06.440
Over the details, but the direction I think we might
756
00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:09.840
agree on, which is, at some point you have to
757
00:45:09.880 --> 00:45:15.400
place limits to prevent the globalization of the American university
758
00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:20.840
and therefore the global orientation of the future leaders of America.
759
00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:25.480
That we want them to be American in their orientation,
760
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:29.199
that in their values, in what political systems they care about.
761
00:45:29.639 --> 00:45:33.719
We want them to have this natural affection more for
762
00:45:33.880 --> 00:45:37.360
America and the American political system than and for other
763
00:45:38.679 --> 00:45:45.960
values in political systems. So I mean, we're we And
764
00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:49.079
it's not that foreigners are unable to do that. They can,
765
00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:52.280
but they're just less likely to much less likely to
766
00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:54.960
than those from this country.
767
00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:56.239
Well, especially the ones that want to leave.
768
00:45:57.559 --> 00:46:01.760
Yeah, I understand. So so I'm I'm not anti immigrant.
769
00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:05.000
I think there are benefits to immigrants. I'm fully on
770
00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:08.239
board for that, but there also have to be limits
771
00:46:08.360 --> 00:46:11.880
to balance the benefits of the immigrants against the risks
772
00:46:12.280 --> 00:46:16.039
and the risk of the globalization. Of the American university
773
00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:19.360
is not an abstract risk. It's one that's right in
774
00:46:19.400 --> 00:46:20.400
front of our eyes.
775
00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:23.880
I agree that there's some entire great risk of the globalization.
776
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:25.559
In fact, I don't think it's like risk. I think
777
00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:28.880
it already happened. But I don't think it has anything
778
00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:33.559
to do actually with the form. It's all about the
779
00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:38.800
ideas of the people who lead American universities. I think
780
00:46:38.840 --> 00:46:42.119
it's all about woke ideology. And I don't think that
781
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:44.519
any cap on fourage duers would solve that. I think
782
00:46:44.519 --> 00:46:47.559
it would only harm the American economy. It will cost
783
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:49.679
us jobs, it will cost us valuable people.
784
00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:53.280
Well, I should mention that I've done two empirical analyses.
785
00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:56.199
They're not causal, so I don't want to over sell them.
786
00:46:56.519 --> 00:47:00.440
But simply the correlation between the number of of H
787
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:05.719
one B visa workers at universities or the number of
788
00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:09.280
F one visas at universities and the number of post
789
00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:13.679
October seventh protests, Okay, and basically in both cases what
790
00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:16.480
you see is very strong correlation between those two. Now,
791
00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:19.199
again I don't want to suggest this as proving I
792
00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:20.480
was going to say, you've.
793
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:24.360
Seen a correlation about the tuition. It's about the tuition amount, right,
794
00:47:26.840 --> 00:47:29.840
you see, you didn't see that state universities versus private
795
00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:30.559
the whole thing.
796
00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:33.159
I actually for the H one B analysis, I do
797
00:47:33.159 --> 00:47:36.159
it by cities. So there are multiple universities, some public,
798
00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:40.280
some private. You know, the tuition varies. Some are graduate
799
00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:42.719
sudents who are not getting who are not paying tuition.
800
00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:47.159
So so just the number of H one B visas
801
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:50.559
you know, and the percent of the variants explained in
802
00:47:50.599 --> 00:47:52.360
the number of protests.
803
00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:54.440
I don't think that's fair. I don't think that's fair
804
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:57.440
at all. If you look at you know, what percent
805
00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:00.480
of the people arrested at the encampment were affiliated?
806
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:03.400
All right, they're not people with visus because they're they're
807
00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:05.599
not idiots, they don't.
808
00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:09.320
They no, So okay, so then let's not say it's causation.
809
00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:12.239
I think you know, what they're doing is they providing
810
00:48:12.280 --> 00:48:19.760
They're they're disarming the intellectual infrastructure or arming the intellectual counterstructure.
811
00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:20.599
This is.
812
00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:24.719
Most of the people arrested were not even people in
813
00:48:24.760 --> 00:48:28.840
the university. What were Marxist activists from nonprofits outside the
814
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:33.239
university who just targeted these universities because they're the elite institutions.
815
00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:35.480
I think we would be fooling ourselves if we don't
816
00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:38.760
see that there is a danger and that there are
817
00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:43.119
some foreign subreteurs. But there's also a lot of foreigners
818
00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:47.920
who they will make no effort to argue in their classes,
819
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:52.920
including technical classes, that America is good, that American values
820
00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:55.480
are good, that the American political system is good.
821
00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:00.199
And so the.
822
00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:03.719
Post October seventh protests were not just anti Israel, they
823
00:49:03.719 --> 00:49:08.159
were anti American, anti Ira, anti Western, and that so
824
00:49:08.760 --> 00:49:12.960
that is the globalization of the American university.
825
00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:17.639
Now that's where I disagree. So I absolutely agree with
826
00:49:17.719 --> 00:49:22.320
you about the ideas about the need to reject what
827
00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:27.280
happened after October seventh, the protests, the riots, really they
828
00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:32.559
takeover property, and the horrible anti Western uh you know,
829
00:49:32.639 --> 00:49:35.840
their world is things they bring. I don't think that's
830
00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:38.920
about foreign students. I think there's a few that are
831
00:49:39.079 --> 00:49:41.599
very bad that we want to filter out. But I
832
00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:44.159
think that the overwhelming majority, in fact, at a lower
833
00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:46.719
rate they were involved because they were on visas than
834
00:49:46.760 --> 00:49:51.880
the native born. So this is an education problem we have.
835
00:49:52.280 --> 00:49:56.519
We have a huge educational problem in America that we're
836
00:49:56.639 --> 00:49:59.079
scapegoating right now on foreign students.
837
00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:05.480
So I think there's a reason why we have borders
838
00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:09.559
and limits on visas at all, right, because we're balancing
839
00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:15.400
benefits against risks. Okay, And while America is very attractive
840
00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:17.679
to foreigners, we know that the rate of foreigners in
841
00:50:17.719 --> 00:50:20.199
general that we let into America has to be at
842
00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:23.599
some limited number so that we can properly digest them
843
00:50:23.639 --> 00:50:26.559
to Americanism as they come in, and over time they
844
00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:31.159
become wonderful citizens and contributors to America, but only at
845
00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:36.639
a digestible rate. If we overwhelm our assimilation institutions, or
846
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:41.320
or those institutions break down, then we have a problem.
847
00:50:41.719 --> 00:50:45.039
And that's generally true about why we have borders and
848
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:50.199
limits on immigration at all. It's specifically true for universities
849
00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:55.119
where they're especially important for training the future leaders of America,
850
00:50:55.280 --> 00:50:58.679
and where we have zero limits. We have no limits
851
00:50:58.679 --> 00:51:01.800
on coming in. And therefore my suggestion that we have
852
00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:07.320
some limits, I think it is a reasonable place to
853
00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:09.320
balance benefits and risks.
854
00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:11.480
I have to jump in here because we are now
855
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:15.800
at time, So we could go on for another thirty minutes.
856
00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:18.159
We can go on for another sixty minutes, We could
857
00:51:18.239 --> 00:51:21.800
go on forever on this you guys are both very
858
00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:26.400
passionate and informed about your topic. But I need to
859
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:29.840
turn us to the closing statements, and in reverse order.
860
00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:32.239
That means Jay will go first for two minutes and
861
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:33.880
Daniel you will have the final word.
862
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:35.639
Great, thank you.
863
00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:39.760
Look, it was wonderful chatting with Daniel. I've never had
864
00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:43.719
a chance to speak with him directly, and I enjoy
865
00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:46.440
it thoroughly and look forward to future such exchanges. And
866
00:51:46.519 --> 00:51:48.760
I think that we share a lot of common ground.
867
00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:52.440
I think that we both recognize the benefits that immigrants
868
00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:57.039
bring to this country in general and specifically in higher education,
869
00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:01.000
and so I think it's important that we not throw
870
00:52:01.039 --> 00:52:04.639
away those benefits. But at the same time, there's a
871
00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:08.400
reason why we have borders, why we have limits on
872
00:52:08.519 --> 00:52:11.639
immigration in general, and why specifically they should exist in
873
00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:17.119
the universities too, which is that in excessive numbers, the
874
00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:22.920
cultural composition and the values and priorities of institutions change.
875
00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:25.360
And while the F one visa program was a great
876
00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:29.400
program in its early days for exporting American values to
877
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:34.519
other countries, that intellectual exchange, that cultural exchange has inverted.
878
00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:39.840
And that's because the numbers have become overwhelming, particularly among
879
00:52:40.039 --> 00:52:44.079
foreign graduate students at universities who are basically the staff
880
00:52:44.320 --> 00:52:49.960
running those universities. And so if we want to protect
881
00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:56.239
against the globalization of the American university and it's and
882
00:52:56.679 --> 00:53:00.039
the problems that poses for training future American elite, and
883
00:53:00.039 --> 00:53:02.760
then we have to impose some reasonable caps and the
884
00:53:02.840 --> 00:53:05.760
number of F one visas we issue, the number of
885
00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:09.239
H one B visas the university's con sponsor, and also
886
00:53:09.239 --> 00:53:12.199
the use of the opt or optional practical training program
887
00:53:12.280 --> 00:53:17.320
at universities for altering the composition and the staff and
888
00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:21.840
the students at those universities. And I think that at
889
00:53:21.880 --> 00:53:24.360
some fear out at the point Daniel must agree that
890
00:53:24.360 --> 00:53:26.159
that has to be true. I guess maybe we have
891
00:53:26.199 --> 00:53:28.840
some difference about whether impairbly were there or not. But
892
00:53:28.880 --> 00:53:30.960
I think we can just look at the world and
893
00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:33.880
see that day is upon us that we have to
894
00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:35.880
begin to balance those risks.
895
00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:38.599
Thank you, Jay and Daniel. The last word is yours.
896
00:53:40.239 --> 00:53:45.039
Well likewise, Jay, this was great. I would say I
897
00:53:45.079 --> 00:53:47.960
think we're missing out on a lot of benefits from
898
00:53:48.320 --> 00:53:52.920
immigration because of existing restrictions on the path of foreign
899
00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:56.280
students to stay in the United States. We see it
900
00:53:56.480 --> 00:54:01.400
in the case of actually TSMC Taiwan Semiconductors, who was
901
00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:04.519
actually a PhD still in here, which was very difficult
902
00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:07.960
to stay. And I think that the problems of higher
903
00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:12.360
education are not cost by foreign enrollment, are caused by
904
00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:15.280
the Marxist ideology that has been taken over acadenia since
905
00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:19.599
the sixties one foreign enrollment was almost known. So if
906
00:54:19.639 --> 00:54:21.719
we're going to fix the problems of academia, we need
907
00:54:21.760 --> 00:54:23.519
to get at the heart of the problem, not at
908
00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:28.079
the symptoms of the problem. And then we're actually harming
909
00:54:28.159 --> 00:54:31.559
ourselves if we impose more limits on migration, especially high
910
00:54:31.559 --> 00:54:34.320
skilled migration, which is what foreign students are, which are
911
00:54:34.360 --> 00:54:37.440
immigrant who speak the language, who have job offers. We
912
00:54:37.480 --> 00:54:39.360
want to make it easier for them to definitely get
913
00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:42.400
out of academia, that's for sure. We have too many
914
00:54:42.440 --> 00:54:45.719
limits that lead them to stay in academia. And because
915
00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:49.239
of that, we're missing on the innovation, on the entrepreneurship
916
00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:52.840
of so many founders of potential large companies, right people
917
00:54:52.840 --> 00:54:56.599
forget you. Musk was also somebody who came here on
918
00:54:56.639 --> 00:54:59.880
an h MBISA was also a student here then dropped out.
919
00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:06.119
That was the case even of Jensen Huang. So there
920
00:55:06.159 --> 00:55:08.920
are a lot of important cases that if we just
921
00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:11.199
impose a broad brush and say we're just going to
922
00:55:11.280 --> 00:55:14.960
limit the total number, we're not getting either of the problem,
923
00:55:15.119 --> 00:55:17.760
and we're actually missing out on a lot of the
924
00:55:17.840 --> 00:55:20.559
potential benefits. So I don't want us to go in
925
00:55:20.599 --> 00:55:24.599
a misguided direction. We want to stop communists, we want
926
00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:28.280
to stop Islamist, we want to stop everybody who hates
927
00:55:28.320 --> 00:55:31.039
the United States, and even people who don't speak English
928
00:55:31.119 --> 00:55:33.239
from coming to the United States. But that doesn't mean
929
00:55:33.800 --> 00:55:37.119
we're going to just limit the persent to this ex
930
00:55:37.239 --> 00:55:41.159
arbitrary percent, or we're going to just stop these certain
931
00:55:41.239 --> 00:55:45.599
universities from employing people. It's about lifting restrictions on the
932
00:55:45.639 --> 00:55:47.880
good kind of people and imposing those on the wrong
933
00:55:47.960 --> 00:55:48.519
kind of people.
934
00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:52.800
Thank you Daniel, thank you Jay, and thank you listeners.
935
00:55:53.079 --> 00:55:56.400
Please join me again in two weeks when Conservative Costs
936
00:55:56.400 --> 00:55:59.840
sos will return. The topic is should conservatives back tax
937
00:56:00.079 --> 00:56:04.760
increases or in Cast says yes or Norquist says no.
938
00:56:05.320 --> 00:56:05.760
Take Care