WEBVTT
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Hi, it's Jen Richler.
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Before we start the show, we want to tell you about another podcast you should check out.
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The Outlawed is hosted by two North Carolina abortion providers, Doctors Bev Gray and Jonas Swartz.
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With a little humor, they take on important topics that directly affect our reproductive health and freedom and offer an insider's view of what's really happening with abortion bans in the US.
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Can We Talk listeners will be especially interested in their episode featuring a rabbi and a pastor discussing religious views on abortion.
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This season also features conversations about menopause and pain control with IUDs.
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You can find Outlawed at OutlawedPodcast.com or on your favorite podcast app.
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Now, on to the show.
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Find me a find.
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Catch me a catch.
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Matchmaker, matchmaker, look through your book and make me a perfect match.
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Jewish matchmaking can be traced as far back as, well, Genesis, when Abraham sends his servant out to find a wife for Isaac, and he comes back with Rebecca.
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But for many people, the first name that comes to mind is Jenta from Fiddler on the Roof.
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I have such news for you, and not every day in the week news, once in a lifetime news.
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Such diamonds, such jewels.
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I'll find a husband for every one of them.
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For generations, matchmakers were a fixture in traditional Jewish life.
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Matchmaking is still very much alive in Orthodox communities.
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But lately, non-Orthodox and secular Jews are also turning to matchmakers to find their beschert.
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In this episode of Can We Talk, we'll hear from three modern-day Yentas, Elisa Ben Shalom, Danielle Selber, and Michal Neistetter, about marriage, intermarriage, the pressures women face, and why they love their work.
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Matchmaking, I think, is a calling, and it just doesn't leave you.
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Once it gets in there, it's just your life's work.
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That's Elisa Ben Shalom from the hit Netflix show Jewish Matchmaking.
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She lives in Israel, but her work takes her all over the world.
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Danielle Selber is based in Philadelphia and works with local Jewish singles through a nonprofit called Tribe 12 and with LGBTQ Jewish singles around the country.
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She got into matchmaking through her research in grad school.
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Michael Neistetter is also based in Philadelphia.
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She sees dating as an opportunity for personal growth.
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It's not just to find your match.
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This isn't, you know, fiddler on the roof anymore.
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Now we're given the gift of time to do a lot of work on ourselves before we just marry someone.
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They regularly send each other clients, compare notes, and swap advice.
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The three come from different walks of Jewish life and work with different kinds of singles, but they all love a good match.
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We started our conversation by talking about why there's been increased interest in matchmaking over the past few years.
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Danielle credits Eliza's show Jewish Matchmaking.
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Having matchmaking come into the mainstreams through something as big as Netflix really did uh break the barrier for some people of thinking of it as this like old world thing and realizing it's actually here now, too.
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Um, and so right after that show came out, I saw a huge increased interest myself.
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And Eliza?
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I grew up non-religious or secular and conservative Jewish in the Philly area.
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And I became observant in my uh mid-20s.
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And so I know both of those worlds very well.
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Before the show, I probably had 75% religious singles and maybe 25% non-religious.
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After the show, it flipped.
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So so many people flooded in, but it was all the non-religious community that was like, oh my gosh, wait, a matchmaker?
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And you're not just for religious people?
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Like non-religious people can use this, or or if I'm traditional, or if I don't believe, or if I'm atheist, like if I'm Jewish, I could have a matchmaker too.
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And it was like this aha moment.
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Is there anything else you think would explain this increased interest in using a matchmaker that has happened over the last little while?
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What do you think, Michael?
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I just think that like matchmaking is truly um building ecosystems, and what we have now is a world where we can like, you know, never leave our house and have everything delivered there and we don't have to talk to other human beings.
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And what matchmaking will do is create an ecosystem of connectivity for a person because we've been so siloed in how we do things now, and it's a really lonely experience to swipe.
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Um, and it feels like we've reached a tipping point.
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I don't know if you other Yentas agree with me with like people's level of exhaustion.
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I think that there's dating burnout from the apps.
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I'm somebody who's pro-apps, meaning you should use it.
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It's a database, it's your database as a single person to be your own matchmaker.
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The problem is that they're not professionals.
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So they're not doing this every day.
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So they're just doing it and using it however they want to, which usually leads to burnout and exhaustion and frustration and disappointment, as opposed to knowing the statistics.
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Okay, let me just tell you 95% of the people, 90% of the people, they're not worth your time.
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There's like 10% of people that you should give a date to, and maybe 2% that you're going to be excited about.
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And when you know that, you have this aha moment of like, okay, so now let me approach it differently so that I'm not every single time getting my hopes up.
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It's just this is the work of what I'm doing.
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And I think it's a misconception that you need this giant pool to choose from when realistically you're only looking for one person.
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And if you're not putting on your best self, your truest self, then that person won't find you.
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I think that Jewish matchmaking inherently understands that love is not just about two people.
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We think it's just about two people, but it's really about connecting like families and generations and so many things that are bigger.
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In Jewish math, one plus one equals one, right?
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You bring two people together and you don't get two.
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You get one, right?
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We bind ourselves together and say, like, this is how I'm gonna go through the world.
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You're my person and we're gonna do this together.
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So we go on the hunt to find the right person for you.
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And I think that we still have to acknowledge that we might need to meet, you know, a few people, kiss a few frogs before we are actually able to receive the one, accept the one.
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Do you see marriage as the ultimate goal of the work that you do?
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And I'd love for each of you to weigh in on that.
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The answer is no for me, just because I let people sort of self-select what their goals are with dating.
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And it's one of the big questions in an initial conversation with a dater, you know, what is your actual end goal?
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Um, and people get to choose.
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I've worked with people who are widowed, or it's, you know, they're coming after divorce, all of these different situations.
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I don't think marriage is always the goal.
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That being said, um I love a wedding.
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Having something where you celebrate your love and bringing people together is so beautiful.
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And to make a statement of your love and your vows in front of your community.
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So, yeah, not everybody is like with the intention of marriage and will follow their lead and their stage of life, but weddings are nice.
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So I think you have three matchmakers and three different answers.
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I'm on the other side, and I work with marriage-minded singles.
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Um, for me, marriage is the goal, and bringing people together and building our communities is the goal.
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And I agree with Danielle that right, everybody can choose what's good for them, but I think somebody who's marriage-minded is a great person to work with me.
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I think I see it as the best way to become the best version of myself is by having a partner by my side.
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And so what I want for me in my own life, I want for other people in their lives so that we can all be the best versions of who we are.
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Since you are the most marriage-minded of the three of you, what for you is the importance of marriage in Jewish life and a Jewish community?
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In a Jewish community, I really believe that it's the foundation.
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One of the things that I say is that matches make families and families create communities, and communities change the world.
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And so at the foundation of changing the world, having the greatest impact that we can have as the Jewish people, it has to start somewhere.
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And where does it start?
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Well, it doesn't just start with me, it starts with a we.
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And it starts with that we joining other we's and having a community of people that are like-minded that want to accomplish something.
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And in the same way, I think that there's um power in numbers, right?
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Like we have a minion, we have 10 men that come, they pray together, right?
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That there's but there's a certain elevation and a power to doing that.
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So this makes me think a little bit about like the people in the community who maybe don't want to get married.
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Where does this leave them?
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And more broadly, does any of you ever feel like in Jewish life and in Jewish communities there's an over-emphasis on coupling up?
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Sure.
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I think for a lot of people, a romantic relationship is not the organizing principle of their lives.
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So it might be something that they uh want or would take if it came to them, but it's not like a goal.
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And also, even with people who purport to be serious daters, I think we've all found that some people are ready for a connection, but not a relationship.
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There are people who are really excited about that like early dating phase and the spark and the connection.
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But when push comes to shove, are they ready to do the dishes?
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Are they ready to really commit to changing their lives to incorporate someone?
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No.
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So I think there's a huge range of what people are capable of and what they're looking for.
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And I don't think it's so easy to figure out because a lot of times people have a list.
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You know, people walk around with their list, they tell us their list, list, list, list, and there's like a million things on the list.
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And we can go on and on about that all day, about the ridiculous or amazing things we've heard on people's lists.
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But our role is to help them see that path and that vision of like, what are you available for and what would be good or complimentary?
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That's hard to see for yourself.
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You also spoke about if there's a tremendous community pressure to be coupled up.
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And I think, I think for sure in the religious communities, there's an extremely strong pressure.
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But I think even in the secular communities and the non-religious communities, you get that nudge, you go home for Thanksgiving, you go home for a holiday.
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New, have you met anybody?
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Are you seeing anybody?
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Is there anything happening?
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What's the new like everybody wants to know the news, right?
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Even if it's not a community pressure, there is sometimes internal family pressure to actually be coupled up.
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And I agree with you that not everybody is ready today to be in a relationship.
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And there's some people that might never be ready for a relationship.
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And I hope that the community that exists is there to support anybody who needs support.
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Speaking of pressure, so here's another question you may all have somewhat different takes on.
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Intermarriage.
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Are all of you strictly matching Jews with other Jews?
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And does the prevalence of intermarriage, especially in the US, factor into your motivation for doing the work that you do and for trying to match Jews with Jews?
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Um, and how do you feel about intermarriage more generally?
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I could start us off.
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Um, it's a big topic.
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So I'll tell a quick story to illustrate something.
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Um I uh heard from a dater who went out with somebody, she's Jewish, and she went out with somebody she met on app who wasn't Jewish, and he said, Oh, you're Jewish.
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What did you get for Hanukkah?
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And it was May.
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And so she noticed in that moment that there is something like a layer of cultural understanding, a foundational piece that may be important to her.
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And that's for each person individually to choose.
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So people who come to me specifically are looking for Jewish partners, but everyone gets to decide if they want to date Jewish, if they want to date at all.
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And so, at least for me, like I have rules about like not approaching people and letting people approach me.
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Like a lot of grandmothers and things will reach out to me and say, like, can you, you know, reach out to my son?
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And I say, no, I will not do that because I'm gonna wait for them to tell me that this is what they're looking for and that I'm the one that can help them.
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I do exclusively match Jewish singles with Jewish singles.
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It's not religious only.
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I work with, you know, non-religious.
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I don't, I like I don't really care what your beliefs are, I don't care how you practice, I care that you want to find a life partner and you're looking for a Jewish partner.
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Those are those are the things that are important to me.
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And I think just one of the things that I struggle with is like, well, what is the future of the Jewish people if we don't have them?
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Like if we continue to decrease in number, what does that look like?
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On the other side, you could say, well, what if they become allies?
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What if we have more people that know the Jewish people, that understand the Jewish people, that love the Jewish people?
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I myself I'm in an interfaith marriage, and I have done interfaith um matching and cross-cultural matching and things like that.
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I'm open, but I'm also guided by what the client is open to and searching for.
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Another thing I'm interested in is how gender plays into the work that you do.
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So, for example, are your clients do how does it break down gender-wise?
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It used to be that really women primarily would come in for matchmaking.
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There is a lot more um pressure from families and culturally.
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Um, and even you see this not just in the Jewish world, but but elsewhere in, you know, Hindu and uh Christian and other faith-based groups, we're having the same, you know, discussions where wow, we have 75% women in our database and 25% men.
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But I would say in the last couple of years, even prior to my show, I would say I started to see more men kind of like waking up and being like, yeah, but it's time.
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I need to work on this.
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And and I I need help with this.
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And they're very logical and pragmatic, and like, yeah, I'm just like, uh, like if I need to work on my body, I'll get a personal trainer.
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If I need to work on my love life, I'll just get a matchmaker.
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This will be easier, faster, and outsource, you know, the efforts because I don't even know what to do.
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Um, so we've seen instead of having like 75-25, maybe 60-40, like coming closer to 50-50.
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Interesting.
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Um, and yeah, people being more motive, men being more motivated.
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Do you think that in Jewish communities there's more pressure on women to marry, to marry sooner at least, than there is on men?
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I think a lot of people face pressures, you know, and maybe women more so in terms of the time factor.
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And that's like a big thing that we that we witness because, you know, women are carrying so much weight of time and they have to be successful, buy a house, you know, figure out how to stand on their own two feet while they're young and figure out how to find a man or a person that is worthy of building a life with.
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I actually noticed that pressure coming from men towards women, actually.
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And I'm speaking about heterosexual relationships right now, but um, a lot of men have the like societal misconception, the conventional wisdom that fertility like stops at 35.
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Um, and like I do a lot of light coaching of men, especially to explain to them that that doesn't really hold water scientifically.
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Um, and so like a rule that I have is that like your dating range has to include your own age for me to work with you, because otherwise you're being hypocritical in your choices and in your dating realities.
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I think also something that's extended women's timelines is egg freezing, which has become increasingly popular over the years.
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And um, it's not just like a backup plan, but it's like I have time.
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So if I want to explore my career, if there's other things that I want to accomplish, then this is something that I put in place so that I won't feel that pressure of time as much and that I can continue to go through that process.
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And it's it's been a big discussion in the industry: like, how do we handle it and how does it really work and how successful is it really?
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And and you know, how much time does it really afford somebody?
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Mm-hmm.
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Actually, something I'm curious about, Danielle, is if any of these dynamics or like some of what we've been talking about as far as the pressures that people feel to couple up, if any of this plays out differently in your experience in the LGBT Jewish community?
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Yeah, um interestingly, when I'm working with the LGBT community, it's often with people over 60.
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So the challenges are different, but the one thing that is removed from that is that pressure piece.
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A lot of these people have already had families if they wanted to, or have chosen a long time ago not to have children.
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Um, and so that becomes more actually about compatibility and the two people, and like Michal said, merging two very long lives and universes.
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I see less of the pressure piece there, but it's probably just because of the demographic I'm working with.
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Okay, I'm gonna take a little break from asking the questions myself, and I'm going to give, I'm gonna play for you a few quick questions that we got from listeners.
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We asked our listeners, what would you ask a Jewish matchmaker?
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And so we got a few interesting questions.
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I'm gonna play the first one for you.
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I'm recently divorced, and I realize now that I relied on my ex for pretty much everything social.
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We went to dinners together, shoul together, movies together, all of that.
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My whole social network sort of fell apart.
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How do I make friends, including male friends, to expand my network in order to meet a guy without being creepy?
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Okay, so I'm jumping in here.
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I'm excited about this question.
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For a woman, I don't think it usually comes off as creepy, but the men might be interested.
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And if she already knows that she's not interested, um, a great way to do it would be to get to know him and say, you know, like I might have a friend in mind for you.
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Like I saw you and I just like I don't know, I might know somebody for you.
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I wanted to like get to know you a little bit better, then get to know them a little bit better, then see if you really have an idea for him, and then say, Great, and if you have an idea for me, wait, let me tell you about me also.
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And then like she gets to play matchmaker while she's doing it.
00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:14.400
And I think if you had said the question, like this was about a man, I'd be like, Yes, that is creepy, but about a woman, it's like, no, he's probably gonna be interested in her.
00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:20.640
Like he's probably just gonna fall for her, and she might need to set that uh boundary clearly from the beginning.
00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:22.799
No, no, it's great advice.
00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:24.160
Okay, great.
00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:25.839
Here's the next question.
00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:32.240
My question for the Jewish matchmaker would be what does it look like when you show courage?
00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:39.839
What would it look like if you were so afraid that you said, you know what, this is important, and I'm gonna do it?
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:44.640
And I think that this is a Jewish question, but I also think this is a human question.
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:50.480
So beautiful to acknowledge your fear.
00:20:51.279 --> 00:21:03.839
And I think it's okay to be fearful and looking for love, being brave, to talk to people, pick people up, say yes to things you normally wouldn't say yes to.
00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:07.200
It's okay to have fear, but you do it with the fear.
00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:14.000
And I would say that fear actually may be a good sign of readiness because it means that you're serious.
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:18.960
It means that you really care and you're you're smart enough to be afraid.
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.480
So um, you know, I always say to my kids, you can be scared and also brave.
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:24.400
You can do both things at the same time.
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:32.079
And just as a recommendation, I would say to check out the book Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway by Susan Jeffers.
00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:39.119
Um, she it exactly addresses this, not specifically in a love context, just in a life context.
00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:45.920
This question comes actually not from a listener, but from a woman that we interviewed for a previous episode.
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:48.000
And her name is Adina Sash.
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:56.160
She is an ultra orthodox woman who lives in Flatbush and goes by the handle flatbush girl on social media.
00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:08.240
And what she does is she advocates sometimes in quite Provocative ways for Agunot, for women who are trapped in their marriages because their husbands won't give them a get a Jewish divorce.
00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:17.839
And so I thought it would be interesting to talk to the three of you who some of what you do is geared to helping people enter into lifelong partnerships.
00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:22.799
And she is working on the opposite end of helping women get out of marriages.
00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:30.880
And we asked her what question, we said we're we're doing this interview with Jewish matchmakers, and what question would you have for them?
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.480
And here's what she said.
00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:42.000
Well, I would say, do they know what a Halachic prenup is and how it works and what its strengths and vulnerabilities are?
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:52.000
Do they understand the mechanisms of action and the ways in which it can help the couple in the future to have a peaceful co-release of their marriage?
00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:55.839
Do they empower women to obtain their halachic prenups?
00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:07.359
The next thing I would ask is do they ask the husbands who are from divorced relationships to explain a little bit about what the divorce get process was like?
00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:15.759
Did they give a get within how long of separate from when the couple was physically separated to when he gave a get, how long did it take?
00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:19.279
Maybe your antenna should go up if it took over a year.
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:20.960
Okay, yeah, I'll jump in.
00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:24.240
First of all, um, I'm extremely grateful for her work.
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:30.480
I think the same way that we need people to help get into marriages, we do need support and help to get women out of marriages.
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:36.799
Uh, we do talk about a halachic prenup because it's not just like a prenup about money and about life.
00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:46.960
This is about, I want to not be married to you and like we need to be spiritually disconnected and I need to have something in place that says if this doesn't work, that we will get through that.
00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:52.720
Um, there are many women that have gotten caught between, well, I got my civil divorce, right?
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:56.960
So uh, you know, according to the state of Pennsylvania, right?
00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:00.160
I have a civil divorce, but I'm still not halachically divorced yet.
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:04.799
I only work with men and women um that have been halachically divorced.
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:10.480
Um, and usually we have like a blacklist of people who have given women a problem.
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:22.720
And so um, if we know that somebody uh has, you know, withheld a get if it's been an extensive period of time and if there's been um problems, then we do not work with them.
00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:25.279
They would be people that just don't need to be married again.
00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:29.039
If you don't, if you can't get out gracefully, you shouldn't get in either.
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:36.000
So um it's very, very much on my radar and something that we do have full discussions about.
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:40.319
Not everybody will follow through, like it depends on where they are on the religious spectrum.
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:45.359
Sometimes um, you know, they're too religious and they don't believe in a halachic prenup.
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:50.160
Sometimes they're not religious enough to buy into it, like you have to actually educate people on this.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:56.160
I want to say that I'm not educated about this, so I appreciate her question and I'm gonna learn.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:03.039
Related to uh what Adina raised, have you ever made a match that you had second thoughts about?
00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:05.519
And did you do anything about that?
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:08.559
Ooh, juicy.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:11.759
I think that there's a difference between second thoughts and red flags.
00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:15.920
So I think a lot of the times we make matches where you're like, I think there's potential here, right?
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:16.720
Like, is it gonna work?
00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:17.200
Is it not?
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:19.519
You set them up, and then they're like, I don't know, maybe.
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:29.039
Um, but what I hear you asking is more like, no, no, the red flags, or after somebody went out and they're like, I'm not sure if I should tell you this, but I think you need to know that.
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:35.599
And then they give you the story about what he or she did and what the problem is and what you should look out for.
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:44.400
Um, for me, in terms of guarding our speech and making sure that we're only saying what we should say and not saying what we don't need to say, if it has purpose, right?
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:51.039
If there's going to be a problem, like I noticed that he showed up and had three drinks on the date.
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:56.400
And I noticed that um he right like didn't behave appropriately.
00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:00.480
And this is now the second time you're telling me that, like, hmm, I'm noticing these things.
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:08.720
So when you see something, you should say something, and I would start to point those things out so she can put the dots together, or he, whichever person it is.
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:11.759
But I I would point things out so people can put the dots together.
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:18.000
And if I was really concerned, I have broken couples up, I would say I'm a matchmaker and I'm a matchbreaker also.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:21.039
How does that work to break couples up?
00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:23.440
What does that mean?
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:31.680
That means that you continue to have conversations until they're very clear that this can't work, and here's why.
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:37.759
Um, one couple in particular, I love them and they love me, and and I'm clear, I'm talking to both sides.
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.279
Everybody loves everybody and they have the most toxic relationship.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:43.680
They love each other, they hate each other, they can talk, they can't talk.
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:45.440
It's all over the map, but they love each other.
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:47.839
I said, love is not enough.
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:51.920
You've tried this for the last year, almost year and a half.
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:53.200
It's not working.
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:58.240
And even if you solved one problem, you have about 10 problems and you can't solve all of them.
00:26:58.400 --> 00:26:59.920
And this is not a healthy match.
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:03.759
On the flip side, what do you think is the secret to a good match?
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:05.440
I like to work with happy people.
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:15.440
I think people that are like naturally positive and see the good are more ready for love and also just more likely to succeed in any kind of process.
00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:23.839
They're more likely to be coachable, they're more likely to uh not judge something really quickly from somebody and over-index for small things.
00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:26.160
So that's one thing I look out for.
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:32.640
I think something that's really important is that when a couple's together, they have a problem and they solve it.
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:41.039
And I think that we have a lot of things that come up over a lifetime and we have to have these skills to maintain not just find a relationship, but keep one.
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:51.119
Michael, you mentioned earlier ridiculous slash amazing things that people will sometimes have on their lists of things they're looking for in a partner.
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:53.599
Can you give any examples?
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:59.920
I've heard things like I don't trust a man who likes the color red.
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:09.279
Or um just things about people's, you know, astrology.
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:13.279
Um, I don't want to, you know, be with a Scorpio.
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:14.960
I don't trust this, I don't trust that.
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:18.960
And so sometimes the list is really a defense mechanism.
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:24.319
And then sometimes the list can be a window into someone's heart.
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:32.640
Like I remember I matched someone who on his list, he really wanted to be with someone who would, you know, kiss in the rain.
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:34.319
I thought that was so beautiful.
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:36.240
I was like, oh, I love you.
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:39.519
Okay, final question.
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:43.119
What do you love about the work that you do?
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:46.799
And do you have a story that illustrates that?
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:51.119
One of my favorite things about being a matchmaker is the matchmakers.
00:28:51.279 --> 00:29:07.680
I mean, they're everybody is so different and so amazing with all different skill sets, and they're leaving corporate jobs or they're doing, they they come with different backgrounds and they're so unique and creative in who and how they help.
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:11.119
So it's just inspiring to be around connectors.
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:13.200
I think they make the world go round.
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:20.799
The last conference that I went to in New York City with the Global Love Institute Institute, it's like a couple hundred matchmakers all in the room together.
00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:27.119
And as different and unique as we are, like Michal said, we literally all walk around with hearts and love, the men, the women.
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:27.759
It doesn't matter.
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:30.000
I mean, mostly it's women that are in this industry.
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:32.079
There's a few token guys that are there.
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:36.319
But like when I walked into the room, I was like, oh, these are my people.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.519
I always say if you've met one matchmaker, you've met one matchmaker.
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:45.440
Like you're talking to three of us now, and obviously we're so different in our approaches and our models and our demographics, everything.
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:48.240
And that's why we're so connected to other matchmakers.
00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:50.880
Because if I'm not the right matchmaker for someone, I'm not gonna try.
00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:53.279
I'm gonna send them to the perfect matchmaker for them.
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:56.799
And the only way for that to work is when we know each other and work with each other.
00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:01.599
So I send people to Michal and Aliza all the time because they're the right choices.
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:03.359
First matches with the matchmaker.
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:05.599
And you know a good match when you see one.
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:12.079
That was Danielle Selber, Michal Neistetter, and Aliza Benchalon.
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:18.880
For the backstory on the word Yenta, check out episode 77, our word of the week episode.
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:24.000
Thank you for listening to Can We Talk, the podcast of the Jewish Women's Archive.
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:27.440
Our team includes Nahani Rouse and Judith Rosenbaum.
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:30.319
Our theme music is by Girls in Trouble.
00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:38.240
You can find Can We Talk at JWA.orgslash Can We Talk or on your favorite podcast app.
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:41.759
Remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode.
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:44.640
Until next time, I'm Jen Richler.
00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:01.760
Hi, it's Jen Richler.
00:00:02.720 --> 00:00:07.040
Before we start the show, we want to tell you about another podcast you should check out.
00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:14.880
The Outlawed is hosted by two North Carolina abortion providers, Doctors Bev Gray and Jonas Swartz.
00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:26.000
With a little humor, they take on important topics that directly affect our reproductive health and freedom and offer an insider's view of what's really happening with abortion bans in the US.
00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:34.640
Can We Talk listeners will be especially interested in their episode featuring a rabbi and a pastor discussing religious views on abortion.
00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:40.719
This season also features conversations about menopause and pain control with IUDs.
00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:47.679
You can find Outlawed at OutlawedPodcast.com or on your favorite podcast app.
00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:50.000
Now, on to the show.
00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:12.319
Find me a find.
00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:14.799
Catch me a catch.
00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:23.680
Matchmaker, matchmaker, look through your book and make me a perfect match.
00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:34.480
Jewish matchmaking can be traced as far back as, well, Genesis, when Abraham sends his servant out to find a wife for Isaac, and he comes back with Rebecca.
00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:40.079
But for many people, the first name that comes to mind is Jenta from Fiddler on the Roof.
00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:50.719
I have such news for you, and not every day in the week news, once in a lifetime news.
00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:54.719
Such diamonds, such jewels.
00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:58.879
I'll find a husband for every one of them.
00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:03.439
For generations, matchmakers were a fixture in traditional Jewish life.
00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:07.760
Matchmaking is still very much alive in Orthodox communities.
00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:14.080
But lately, non-Orthodox and secular Jews are also turning to matchmakers to find their beschert.
00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:30.560
In this episode of Can We Talk, we'll hear from three modern-day Yentas, Elisa Ben Shalom, Danielle Selber, and Michal Neistetter, about marriage, intermarriage, the pressures women face, and why they love their work.
00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:34.080
Matchmaking, I think, is a calling, and it just doesn't leave you.
00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:36.719
Once it gets in there, it's just your life's work.
00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:41.599
That's Elisa Ben Shalom from the hit Netflix show Jewish Matchmaking.
00:02:41.759 --> 00:02:45.599
She lives in Israel, but her work takes her all over the world.
00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:56.639
Danielle Selber is based in Philadelphia and works with local Jewish singles through a nonprofit called Tribe 12 and with LGBTQ Jewish singles around the country.
00:02:56.879 --> 00:03:00.080
She got into matchmaking through her research in grad school.
00:03:19.759 --> 00:03:23.039
Michael Neistetter is also based in Philadelphia.
00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:26.159
She sees dating as an opportunity for personal growth.
00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:27.840
It's not just to find your match.
00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:30.479
This isn't, you know, fiddler on the roof anymore.
00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:36.879
Now we're given the gift of time to do a lot of work on ourselves before we just marry someone.
00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:47.840
They regularly send each other clients, compare notes, and swap advice.
00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:54.800
The three come from different walks of Jewish life and work with different kinds of singles, but they all love a good match.
00:03:55.120 --> 00:04:02.080
We started our conversation by talking about why there's been increased interest in matchmaking over the past few years.
00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:05.680
Danielle credits Eliza's show Jewish Matchmaking.
00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:17.040
Having matchmaking come into the mainstreams through something as big as Netflix really did uh break the barrier for some people of thinking of it as this like old world thing and realizing it's actually here now, too.
00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:22.720
Um, and so right after that show came out, I saw a huge increased interest myself.
00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:23.920
And Eliza?
00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:28.800
I grew up non-religious or secular and conservative Jewish in the Philly area.
00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:31.920
And I became observant in my uh mid-20s.
00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:34.319
And so I know both of those worlds very well.
00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:41.279
Before the show, I probably had 75% religious singles and maybe 25% non-religious.
00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:43.439
After the show, it flipped.
00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:49.680
So so many people flooded in, but it was all the non-religious community that was like, oh my gosh, wait, a matchmaker?
00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:51.439
And you're not just for religious people?
00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:59.279
Like non-religious people can use this, or or if I'm traditional, or if I don't believe, or if I'm atheist, like if I'm Jewish, I could have a matchmaker too.
00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:00.879
And it was like this aha moment.
00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:10.079
Is there anything else you think would explain this increased interest in using a matchmaker that has happened over the last little while?
00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:12.000
What do you think, Michael?
00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:27.600
I just think that like matchmaking is truly um building ecosystems, and what we have now is a world where we can like, you know, never leave our house and have everything delivered there and we don't have to talk to other human beings.
00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:40.959
And what matchmaking will do is create an ecosystem of connectivity for a person because we've been so siloed in how we do things now, and it's a really lonely experience to swipe.
00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:43.839
Um, and it feels like we've reached a tipping point.
00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:48.160
I don't know if you other Yentas agree with me with like people's level of exhaustion.
00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:51.120
I think that there's dating burnout from the apps.
00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:54.480
I'm somebody who's pro-apps, meaning you should use it.
00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:58.959
It's a database, it's your database as a single person to be your own matchmaker.
00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:01.199
The problem is that they're not professionals.
00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:02.639
So they're not doing this every day.
00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:12.800
So they're just doing it and using it however they want to, which usually leads to burnout and exhaustion and frustration and disappointment, as opposed to knowing the statistics.
00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:18.160
Okay, let me just tell you 95% of the people, 90% of the people, they're not worth your time.
00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:23.120
There's like 10% of people that you should give a date to, and maybe 2% that you're going to be excited about.
00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:30.800
And when you know that, you have this aha moment of like, okay, so now let me approach it differently so that I'm not every single time getting my hopes up.
00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:33.120
It's just this is the work of what I'm doing.
00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:39.600
And I think it's a misconception that you need this giant pool to choose from when realistically you're only looking for one person.
00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:44.240
And if you're not putting on your best self, your truest self, then that person won't find you.
00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:52.560
I think that Jewish matchmaking inherently understands that love is not just about two people.
00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:59.759
We think it's just about two people, but it's really about connecting like families and generations and so many things that are bigger.
00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:03.839
In Jewish math, one plus one equals one, right?
00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:06.319
You bring two people together and you don't get two.
00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:07.680
You get one, right?
00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:11.759
We bind ourselves together and say, like, this is how I'm gonna go through the world.
00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:13.839
You're my person and we're gonna do this together.
00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:16.240
So we go on the hunt to find the right person for you.
00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:28.160
And I think that we still have to acknowledge that we might need to meet, you know, a few people, kiss a few frogs before we are actually able to receive the one, accept the one.
00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:37.680
Do you see marriage as the ultimate goal of the work that you do?
00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:40.560
And I'd love for each of you to weigh in on that.
00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:46.000
The answer is no for me, just because I let people sort of self-select what their goals are with dating.
00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:51.600
And it's one of the big questions in an initial conversation with a dater, you know, what is your actual end goal?
00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:53.360
Um, and people get to choose.
00:07:53.759 --> 00:08:00.560
I've worked with people who are widowed, or it's, you know, they're coming after divorce, all of these different situations.
00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:02.879
I don't think marriage is always the goal.
00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:07.600
That being said, um I love a wedding.
00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:13.199
Having something where you celebrate your love and bringing people together is so beautiful.
00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:19.600
And to make a statement of your love and your vows in front of your community.
00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:28.800
So, yeah, not everybody is like with the intention of marriage and will follow their lead and their stage of life, but weddings are nice.
00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:32.159
So I think you have three matchmakers and three different answers.
00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:36.720
I'm on the other side, and I work with marriage-minded singles.
00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:42.320
Um, for me, marriage is the goal, and bringing people together and building our communities is the goal.
00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:50.000
And I agree with Danielle that right, everybody can choose what's good for them, but I think somebody who's marriage-minded is a great person to work with me.
00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:58.720
I think I see it as the best way to become the best version of myself is by having a partner by my side.
00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:06.559
And so what I want for me in my own life, I want for other people in their lives so that we can all be the best versions of who we are.
00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:16.240
Since you are the most marriage-minded of the three of you, what for you is the importance of marriage in Jewish life and a Jewish community?
00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:20.080
In a Jewish community, I really believe that it's the foundation.
00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:27.679
One of the things that I say is that matches make families and families create communities, and communities change the world.
00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:35.679
And so at the foundation of changing the world, having the greatest impact that we can have as the Jewish people, it has to start somewhere.
00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:36.799
And where does it start?
00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:39.360
Well, it doesn't just start with me, it starts with a we.
00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:46.559
And it starts with that we joining other we's and having a community of people that are like-minded that want to accomplish something.
00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:51.039
And in the same way, I think that there's um power in numbers, right?
00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:54.879
Like we have a minion, we have 10 men that come, they pray together, right?
00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:59.360
That there's but there's a certain elevation and a power to doing that.
00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:07.200
So this makes me think a little bit about like the people in the community who maybe don't want to get married.
00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:09.360
Where does this leave them?
00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:19.120
And more broadly, does any of you ever feel like in Jewish life and in Jewish communities there's an over-emphasis on coupling up?
00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:20.559
Sure.
00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:26.960
I think for a lot of people, a romantic relationship is not the organizing principle of their lives.
00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:34.240
So it might be something that they uh want or would take if it came to them, but it's not like a goal.
00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:43.679
And also, even with people who purport to be serious daters, I think we've all found that some people are ready for a connection, but not a relationship.
00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:48.879
There are people who are really excited about that like early dating phase and the spark and the connection.
00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:51.440
But when push comes to shove, are they ready to do the dishes?
00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:55.200
Are they ready to really commit to changing their lives to incorporate someone?
00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:55.759
No.
00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:01.519
So I think there's a huge range of what people are capable of and what they're looking for.
00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:06.000
And I don't think it's so easy to figure out because a lot of times people have a list.
00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:10.720
You know, people walk around with their list, they tell us their list, list, list, list, and there's like a million things on the list.
00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:16.639
And we can go on and on about that all day, about the ridiculous or amazing things we've heard on people's lists.
00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:26.639
But our role is to help them see that path and that vision of like, what are you available for and what would be good or complimentary?
00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:29.279
That's hard to see for yourself.
00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:34.639
You also spoke about if there's a tremendous community pressure to be coupled up.
00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:39.840
And I think, I think for sure in the religious communities, there's an extremely strong pressure.
00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:47.919
But I think even in the secular communities and the non-religious communities, you get that nudge, you go home for Thanksgiving, you go home for a holiday.
00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:49.360
New, have you met anybody?
00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:50.320
Are you seeing anybody?
00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:51.360
Is there anything happening?
00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:55.360
What's the new like everybody wants to know the news, right?
00:11:55.519 --> 00:12:02.080
Even if it's not a community pressure, there is sometimes internal family pressure to actually be coupled up.
00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:06.000
And I agree with you that not everybody is ready today to be in a relationship.
00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:09.120
And there's some people that might never be ready for a relationship.
00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:15.840
And I hope that the community that exists is there to support anybody who needs support.
00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:21.840
Speaking of pressure, so here's another question you may all have somewhat different takes on.
00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:23.039
Intermarriage.
00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:27.440
Are all of you strictly matching Jews with other Jews?
00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:38.559
And does the prevalence of intermarriage, especially in the US, factor into your motivation for doing the work that you do and for trying to match Jews with Jews?
00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:42.240
Um, and how do you feel about intermarriage more generally?
00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:44.240
I could start us off.
00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:46.000
Um, it's a big topic.
00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:49.120
So I'll tell a quick story to illustrate something.
00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:58.240
Um I uh heard from a dater who went out with somebody, she's Jewish, and she went out with somebody she met on app who wasn't Jewish, and he said, Oh, you're Jewish.
00:12:58.320 --> 00:12:59.600
What did you get for Hanukkah?
00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:00.879
And it was May.
00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:10.240
And so she noticed in that moment that there is something like a layer of cultural understanding, a foundational piece that may be important to her.
00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:12.720
And that's for each person individually to choose.
00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:21.200
So people who come to me specifically are looking for Jewish partners, but everyone gets to decide if they want to date Jewish, if they want to date at all.
00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:26.720
And so, at least for me, like I have rules about like not approaching people and letting people approach me.
00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:31.360
Like a lot of grandmothers and things will reach out to me and say, like, can you, you know, reach out to my son?
00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:38.399
And I say, no, I will not do that because I'm gonna wait for them to tell me that this is what they're looking for and that I'm the one that can help them.
00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:42.159
I do exclusively match Jewish singles with Jewish singles.
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:43.279
It's not religious only.
00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:45.200
I work with, you know, non-religious.
00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:54.799
I don't, I like I don't really care what your beliefs are, I don't care how you practice, I care that you want to find a life partner and you're looking for a Jewish partner.
00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:57.360
Those are those are the things that are important to me.
00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:05.279
And I think just one of the things that I struggle with is like, well, what is the future of the Jewish people if we don't have them?
00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:09.360
Like if we continue to decrease in number, what does that look like?
00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:12.720
On the other side, you could say, well, what if they become allies?
00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:17.759
What if we have more people that know the Jewish people, that understand the Jewish people, that love the Jewish people?
00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:28.080
I myself I'm in an interfaith marriage, and I have done interfaith um matching and cross-cultural matching and things like that.
00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:34.720
I'm open, but I'm also guided by what the client is open to and searching for.
00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:41.039
Another thing I'm interested in is how gender plays into the work that you do.
00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:45.360
So, for example, are your clients do how does it break down gender-wise?
00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:49.919
It used to be that really women primarily would come in for matchmaking.
00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:54.080
There is a lot more um pressure from families and culturally.
00:14:54.159 --> 00:15:08.960
Um, and even you see this not just in the Jewish world, but but elsewhere in, you know, Hindu and uh Christian and other faith-based groups, we're having the same, you know, discussions where wow, we have 75% women in our database and 25% men.
00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:18.240
But I would say in the last couple of years, even prior to my show, I would say I started to see more men kind of like waking up and being like, yeah, but it's time.
00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:19.360
I need to work on this.
00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:20.879
And and I I need help with this.
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:27.279
And they're very logical and pragmatic, and like, yeah, I'm just like, uh, like if I need to work on my body, I'll get a personal trainer.
00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:29.759
If I need to work on my love life, I'll just get a matchmaker.
00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:35.200
This will be easier, faster, and outsource, you know, the efforts because I don't even know what to do.
00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:42.240
Um, so we've seen instead of having like 75-25, maybe 60-40, like coming closer to 50-50.
00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:42.799
Interesting.
00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:47.519
Um, and yeah, people being more motive, men being more motivated.
00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:58.240
Do you think that in Jewish communities there's more pressure on women to marry, to marry sooner at least, than there is on men?
00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:04.879
I think a lot of people face pressures, you know, and maybe women more so in terms of the time factor.
00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:28.399
And that's like a big thing that we that we witness because, you know, women are carrying so much weight of time and they have to be successful, buy a house, you know, figure out how to stand on their own two feet while they're young and figure out how to find a man or a person that is worthy of building a life with.
00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:46.960
I actually noticed that pressure coming from men towards women, actually.
00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:58.799
And I'm speaking about heterosexual relationships right now, but um, a lot of men have the like societal misconception, the conventional wisdom that fertility like stops at 35.
00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:06.240
Um, and like I do a lot of light coaching of men, especially to explain to them that that doesn't really hold water scientifically.
00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:18.079
Um, and so like a rule that I have is that like your dating range has to include your own age for me to work with you, because otherwise you're being hypocritical in your choices and in your dating realities.
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:26.000
I think also something that's extended women's timelines is egg freezing, which has become increasingly popular over the years.
00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:30.319
And um, it's not just like a backup plan, but it's like I have time.
00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:41.759
So if I want to explore my career, if there's other things that I want to accomplish, then this is something that I put in place so that I won't feel that pressure of time as much and that I can continue to go through that process.
00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:49.279
And it's it's been a big discussion in the industry: like, how do we handle it and how does it really work and how successful is it really?
00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:53.119
And and you know, how much time does it really afford somebody?
00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:53.839
Mm-hmm.
00:17:54.720 --> 00:18:11.279
Actually, something I'm curious about, Danielle, is if any of these dynamics or like some of what we've been talking about as far as the pressures that people feel to couple up, if any of this plays out differently in your experience in the LGBT Jewish community?
00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:19.200
Yeah, um interestingly, when I'm working with the LGBT community, it's often with people over 60.
00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:24.640
So the challenges are different, but the one thing that is removed from that is that pressure piece.
00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:30.559
A lot of these people have already had families if they wanted to, or have chosen a long time ago not to have children.
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:38.720
Um, and so that becomes more actually about compatibility and the two people, and like Michal said, merging two very long lives and universes.
00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:46.160
I see less of the pressure piece there, but it's probably just because of the demographic I'm working with.
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:56.400
Okay, I'm gonna take a little break from asking the questions myself, and I'm going to give, I'm gonna play for you a few quick questions that we got from listeners.
00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:01.200
We asked our listeners, what would you ask a Jewish matchmaker?
00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:05.440
And so we got a few interesting questions.
00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:07.759
I'm gonna play the first one for you.
00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:15.920
I'm recently divorced, and I realize now that I relied on my ex for pretty much everything social.
00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:21.839
We went to dinners together, shoul together, movies together, all of that.
00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:25.359
My whole social network sort of fell apart.
00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:32.720
How do I make friends, including male friends, to expand my network in order to meet a guy without being creepy?
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:34.960
Okay, so I'm jumping in here.
00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:36.240
I'm excited about this question.
00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:40.960
For a woman, I don't think it usually comes off as creepy, but the men might be interested.
00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:49.680
And if she already knows that she's not interested, um, a great way to do it would be to get to know him and say, you know, like I might have a friend in mind for you.
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:53.200
Like I saw you and I just like I don't know, I might know somebody for you.
00:19:53.279 --> 00:20:03.119
I wanted to like get to know you a little bit better, then get to know them a little bit better, then see if you really have an idea for him, and then say, Great, and if you have an idea for me, wait, let me tell you about me also.
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:06.400
And then like she gets to play matchmaker while she's doing it.
00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:14.400
And I think if you had said the question, like this was about a man, I'd be like, Yes, that is creepy, but about a woman, it's like, no, he's probably gonna be interested in her.
00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:20.640
Like he's probably just gonna fall for her, and she might need to set that uh boundary clearly from the beginning.
00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:22.799
No, no, it's great advice.
00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:24.160
Okay, great.
00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:25.839
Here's the next question.
00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:32.240
My question for the Jewish matchmaker would be what does it look like when you show courage?
00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:39.839
What would it look like if you were so afraid that you said, you know what, this is important, and I'm gonna do it?
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:44.640
And I think that this is a Jewish question, but I also think this is a human question.
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:50.480
So beautiful to acknowledge your fear.
00:20:51.279 --> 00:21:03.839
And I think it's okay to be fearful and looking for love, being brave, to talk to people, pick people up, say yes to things you normally wouldn't say yes to.
00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:07.200
It's okay to have fear, but you do it with the fear.
00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:14.000
And I would say that fear actually may be a good sign of readiness because it means that you're serious.
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:18.960
It means that you really care and you're you're smart enough to be afraid.
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.480
So um, you know, I always say to my kids, you can be scared and also brave.
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:24.400
You can do both things at the same time.
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:32.079
And just as a recommendation, I would say to check out the book Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway by Susan Jeffers.
00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:39.119
Um, she it exactly addresses this, not specifically in a love context, just in a life context.
00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:45.920
This question comes actually not from a listener, but from a woman that we interviewed for a previous episode.
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:48.000
And her name is Adina Sash.
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:56.160
She is an ultra orthodox woman who lives in Flatbush and goes by the handle flatbush girl on social media.
00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:08.240
And what she does is she advocates sometimes in quite Provocative ways for Agunot, for women who are trapped in their marriages because their husbands won't give them a get a Jewish divorce.
00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:17.839
And so I thought it would be interesting to talk to the three of you who some of what you do is geared to helping people enter into lifelong partnerships.
00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:22.799
And she is working on the opposite end of helping women get out of marriages.
00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:30.880
And we asked her what question, we said we're we're doing this interview with Jewish matchmakers, and what question would you have for them?
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.480
And here's what she said.
00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:42.000
Well, I would say, do they know what a Halachic prenup is and how it works and what its strengths and vulnerabilities are?
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:52.000
Do they understand the mechanisms of action and the ways in which it can help the couple in the future to have a peaceful co-release of their marriage?
00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:55.839
Do they empower women to obtain their halachic prenups?
00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:07.359
The next thing I would ask is do they ask the husbands who are from divorced relationships to explain a little bit about what the divorce get process was like?
00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:15.759
Did they give a get within how long of separate from when the couple was physically separated to when he gave a get, how long did it take?
00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:19.279
Maybe your antenna should go up if it took over a year.
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:20.960
Okay, yeah, I'll jump in.
00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:24.240
First of all, um, I'm extremely grateful for her work.
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:30.480
I think the same way that we need people to help get into marriages, we do need support and help to get women out of marriages.
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:36.799
Uh, we do talk about a halachic prenup because it's not just like a prenup about money and about life.
00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:46.960
This is about, I want to not be married to you and like we need to be spiritually disconnected and I need to have something in place that says if this doesn't work, that we will get through that.
00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:52.720
Um, there are many women that have gotten caught between, well, I got my civil divorce, right?
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:56.960
So uh, you know, according to the state of Pennsylvania, right?
00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:00.160
I have a civil divorce, but I'm still not halachically divorced yet.
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:04.799
I only work with men and women um that have been halachically divorced.
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:10.480
Um, and usually we have like a blacklist of people who have given women a problem.
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:22.720
And so um, if we know that somebody uh has, you know, withheld a get if it's been an extensive period of time and if there's been um problems, then we do not work with them.
00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:25.279
They would be people that just don't need to be married again.
00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:29.039
If you don't, if you can't get out gracefully, you shouldn't get in either.
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:36.000
So um it's very, very much on my radar and something that we do have full discussions about.
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:40.319
Not everybody will follow through, like it depends on where they are on the religious spectrum.
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:45.359
Sometimes um, you know, they're too religious and they don't believe in a halachic prenup.
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:50.160
Sometimes they're not religious enough to buy into it, like you have to actually educate people on this.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:56.160
I want to say that I'm not educated about this, so I appreciate her question and I'm gonna learn.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:03.039
Related to uh what Adina raised, have you ever made a match that you had second thoughts about?
00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:05.519
And did you do anything about that?
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:08.559
Ooh, juicy.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:11.759
I think that there's a difference between second thoughts and red flags.
00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:15.920
So I think a lot of the times we make matches where you're like, I think there's potential here, right?
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:16.720
Like, is it gonna work?
00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:17.200
Is it not?
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:19.519
You set them up, and then they're like, I don't know, maybe.
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:29.039
Um, but what I hear you asking is more like, no, no, the red flags, or after somebody went out and they're like, I'm not sure if I should tell you this, but I think you need to know that.
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:35.599
And then they give you the story about what he or she did and what the problem is and what you should look out for.
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:44.400
Um, for me, in terms of guarding our speech and making sure that we're only saying what we should say and not saying what we don't need to say, if it has purpose, right?
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:51.039
If there's going to be a problem, like I noticed that he showed up and had three drinks on the date.
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:56.400
And I noticed that um he right like didn't behave appropriately.
00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:00.480
And this is now the second time you're telling me that, like, hmm, I'm noticing these things.
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:08.720
So when you see something, you should say something, and I would start to point those things out so she can put the dots together, or he, whichever person it is.
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:11.759
But I I would point things out so people can put the dots together.
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:18.000
And if I was really concerned, I have broken couples up, I would say I'm a matchmaker and I'm a matchbreaker also.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:21.039
How does that work to break couples up?
00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:23.440
What does that mean?
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:31.680
That means that you continue to have conversations until they're very clear that this can't work, and here's why.
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:37.759
Um, one couple in particular, I love them and they love me, and and I'm clear, I'm talking to both sides.
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.279
Everybody loves everybody and they have the most toxic relationship.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:43.680
They love each other, they hate each other, they can talk, they can't talk.
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:45.440
It's all over the map, but they love each other.
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:47.839
I said, love is not enough.
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:51.920
You've tried this for the last year, almost year and a half.
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:53.200
It's not working.
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:58.240
And even if you solved one problem, you have about 10 problems and you can't solve all of them.
00:26:58.400 --> 00:26:59.920
And this is not a healthy match.
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:03.759
On the flip side, what do you think is the secret to a good match?
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:05.440
I like to work with happy people.
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:15.440
I think people that are like naturally positive and see the good are more ready for love and also just more likely to succeed in any kind of process.
00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:23.839
They're more likely to be coachable, they're more likely to uh not judge something really quickly from somebody and over-index for small things.
00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:26.160
So that's one thing I look out for.
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:32.640
I think something that's really important is that when a couple's together, they have a problem and they solve it.
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:41.039
And I think that we have a lot of things that come up over a lifetime and we have to have these skills to maintain not just find a relationship, but keep one.
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:51.119
Michael, you mentioned earlier ridiculous slash amazing things that people will sometimes have on their lists of things they're looking for in a partner.
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:53.599
Can you give any examples?
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:59.920
I've heard things like I don't trust a man who likes the color red.
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:09.279
Or um just things about people's, you know, astrology.
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:13.279
Um, I don't want to, you know, be with a Scorpio.
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:14.960
I don't trust this, I don't trust that.
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:18.960
And so sometimes the list is really a defense mechanism.
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:24.319
And then sometimes the list can be a window into someone's heart.
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:32.640
Like I remember I matched someone who on his list, he really wanted to be with someone who would, you know, kiss in the rain.
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:34.319
I thought that was so beautiful.
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:36.240
I was like, oh, I love you.
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:39.519
Okay, final question.
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:43.119
What do you love about the work that you do?
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:46.799
And do you have a story that illustrates that?
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:51.119
One of my favorite things about being a matchmaker is the matchmakers.
00:28:51.279 --> 00:29:07.680
I mean, they're everybody is so different and so amazing with all different skill sets, and they're leaving corporate jobs or they're doing, they they come with different backgrounds and they're so unique and creative in who and how they help.
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:11.119
So it's just inspiring to be around connectors.
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:13.200
I think they make the world go round.
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:20.799
The last conference that I went to in New York City with the Global Love Institute Institute, it's like a couple hundred matchmakers all in the room together.
00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:27.119
And as different and unique as we are, like Michal said, we literally all walk around with hearts and love, the men, the women.
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:27.759
It doesn't matter.
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:30.000
I mean, mostly it's women that are in this industry.
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:32.079
There's a few token guys that are there.
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:36.319
But like when I walked into the room, I was like, oh, these are my people.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.519
I always say if you've met one matchmaker, you've met one matchmaker.
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:45.440
Like you're talking to three of us now, and obviously we're so different in our approaches and our models and our demographics, everything.
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:48.240
And that's why we're so connected to other matchmakers.
00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:50.880
Because if I'm not the right matchmaker for someone, I'm not gonna try.
00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:53.279
I'm gonna send them to the perfect matchmaker for them.
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:56.799
And the only way for that to work is when we know each other and work with each other.
00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:01.599
So I send people to Michal and Aliza all the time because they're the right choices.
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:03.359
First matches with the matchmaker.
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:05.599
And you know a good match when you see one.
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:12.079
That was Danielle Selber, Michal Neistetter, and Aliza Benchalon.
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:18.880
For the backstory on the word Yenta, check out episode 77, our word of the week episode.
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:24.000
Thank you for listening to Can We Talk, the podcast of the Jewish Women's Archive.
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:27.440
Our team includes Nahani Rouse and Judith Rosenbaum.
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:30.319
Our theme music is by Girls in Trouble.
00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:38.240
You can find Can We Talk at JWA.orgslash Can We Talk or on your favorite podcast app.
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:41.759
Remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode.
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:44.640
Until next time, I'm Jen Richler.
