0:01
Hi there listeners, welcome to another episode of the Building a Bulletproof Back podcast. I have Mira with me today who has an amazing story that I think is going to be really beneficial to some of you that are listening right now in a whole world of pain. We are talking about pain. We're going to be talking about how to alter your relationship with it, which is, I guess, fits under the modality of a mental and emotional strategy that we can bring to pain. Sometimes we talk about movement, sometimes we talk about core fitness. But I think with stubborn back pain, we need to be exploring all facets of the experience. And I think Mia is going to help us shed a little bit of light on certainly her experience. So thank you for your time. Mira. And um, over to you. Start sharing.
U2
0:55
Thanks, Marianne, and thanks for having me on the on the show. It's wonderful to be here. Um, and I love to be able to share about my story, actually, because it's been so transformational in the most unexpected of ways. And just for me, I think to start at the beginning, you know, really what started my back pain? I was only 12 years old. Um, and I slipped on a young. Yeah, I know, I know, so obviously I was just in secondary school is what we call it here in the UK. And, um. Yeah, I slipped on some soap, uh, while doing some washing up at my grandparents retirement party, and I landed on my coccyx. And yeah, nothing really hurt as such to start with. Obviously, the initial fall hurt, but I just couldn't walk for a little while, so like, it really jarred my entire system, I think. And so from that moment on, I started seeing an osteopath, and I was always getting aches and pains and tight spots and and and yeah, sometimes, like I'd wake up of a morning just being excruciating pain and not not being able to go to school and need to go and have an emergency appointment. And so it kind of it started all around that time. So yeah, it's very young really. Um, and so I actually can't remember a time before that really. Um, but well, for me, I think it's, it's, it's been remarkable to see how things have gone on, you know, like things obviously got an awful lot worse before they got better. Um, I experienced, um, what I've been told is a rare condition. When I became pregnant with my second child. With the first one, it was okay, um, which is called symphysis pubis dysfunction. And it's the ligament at the front of the pelvic bone that just stops working, stops functioning properly. Um, and so that left me not being able to walk, um, and then obviously pregnant. So, yeah, going through labor and everything was really, really difficult. And afterwards nothing went back together. Right. Um, and so that's a different part of the body, but it's the structure of the whole of the spine. So that's just led to absolutely excruciating pain, like, and not just, uh, you know, times when it was excruciating, just like permanently, like 24 over seven, day and night, it was really difficult to sleep. It was difficult to function. Um, and yeah, that for me was a really, really low point. Um, which as it went on, when my son was only a few years old, I didn't want to be here anymore. I was done, you know, like, I really didn't want to live. And so I did make an attempt on my life. Um, thankfully I was I was caught in the process of it, so it never happened. And but for me, that was when my life started. Because. Strangely, at the lowest point in my life, I had an amazing what you might call transcendent experience because I went from deeply suffering to absolute pristine peace. Like, it's just like the the bottom dropped out of my world in a good way. Like all the edges, all the friction, all the pressure just disappeared. And there wasn't even the idea of pain in that experience, actually, which is where the theme from my book came from. Peace or pain is, is a choice, depending on where your attention is, depending on if there's any resistance. And so for me, yeah, that experience. And I thought, well, if I can have that now, you know when this is my lowest point. If I can have this level of peace. With so much serenity and contentment and joy. Surely I can have that, you know, in the rest of the time. And so even when that experience then faded and the pain came back again, it it gave me something really tangible to hang on to, like that hope. And also the direct knowing from the experience that there is another way I can have a different experience. And so I kind of moved away from the trying to fix myself and mend my back pain and mend myself because I'm broken in some way. Um, and actually became more about being, being. The. 1s Here awareness that I now know that I am, that we all are. And when
we have an awareness of that of of presence, our experience of our our back pain, any pain utterly changes. So it's like there's two operating modes, one where there is the option of suffering and one where there's no suffering. So pain is always possible. For example, acute pain, you know, if you have an accident or something, uh, in the moment, like if you go to the dentist, for example, that still hurts. But, um, it's when it goes into long term chronic pain where it starts to become suffering. We call it pain, but it's actually a secondary pain of, of of suffering, which is a reaction. It's something we're doing is a habitual reaction. And recognizing that gives us the choice for peace in any given moment. And I started to get more and more tastes of that. Um, so when I went on retreats with the so I found the issue is restart. And that utterly changed my life. Um, where and I became one. I were a we're a group of monks. Um. It's non-religious. 1s Um, sorry,
U1
6:20
I was going to say. Can you explain what the Oscars are? Yeah.
U2
6:24
Yeah, yeah, sure. For sure. Um, so, yeah, as as a shires, we are basically a non-religious organisation. And, um, really the foundation in it is, is being yourself. So it's very, very simple and basic in a way. Um, and there are vowels that you take, but they're my core values anyway, you know, like honesty, um, non- violence and things like that. So for me, it was all a, you know, no brainer that this is what resonated for me. And what really caught my attention was the lack of judgment in, in the the issues that I met. There was no judgment towards me. There was no seeing me as a victim to my circumstance. So it's almost like they saw me in my perfection. And that enabled me to actually start to tap into the inner state of being who and what I really am, without the mind telling me who I am. Because that's the thing. We don't realize how much the mind governs our experience. That is a pure experience of this moment, which is our birthright and our natural state of being very, very natural. Like, this is not something you have to do. It's a it's an undoing of all the habits and the belief system and the way we've learned to perceive the world, to behave within the world. And so it's really easy to change. Um, and we use a practice called ascension. Um, and the ascension techniques are very simple and they're mechanical. So they just bring you back to an experience of presence and enliven it so it becomes easier to consciously recognize it, you know, to actually have that as a direct living experience and so on. One of these retreats, I had this experience where the pain was just building up and up and up and up and up, and I thought, I'm going to go bonkers here. You know, like, I just I can't take it anymore. This is getting to the, the levels that I can't cope with again. Um, and I went and asked a teacher for help and, you know, they just looked at me with such kind, compassionate, accepting, loving eyes and just invited me. Could I let the pain be here right now in this moment? And, you know, I kind of wanted to scream at them and go, no, that's why I came to you for help. I want the pain. God, I want it gone. And instead they were just going. But could you let it be here right now, in this moment? And it was kind of already here. So I'm like, all right then, you know, and in that moment where I just actually surrendered and just went, okay, you've got me. I'm just going to do what you ask and let it be here 100%. And in that moment, the pain vanished without a trace. And and it stayed away. And for me, I'm just like, what just happened? 2s And it was quite a shock that I could go from one moment in extreme pain to the next moment utterly gone. And it's almost just like I was looking for it. Like where, where, where is it? And and yet it was just gone. Um, and it did eventually come back because, uh, the habit always reasserts itself until we establish the new one more, you know, solidly. Um, so it's kind of a back and forth dance, you know, with one minute, um, I could just be using the ascension techniques and all, all pain gone and easy. It might last into my everyday life a little bit. And it was becoming more and more sustainable. Um, and so I ended up wanting to become an usher because, like, for me, this is just like, well, people need to know what is possible. Um, and I want this. I want to see what else is possible in my own experience. So I went on the course, which was in northern Spain for, for six months, and an awful lot of that was just really, um, deepening your own experience. So when you teach, you're teaching from experience and not from a concept. And so there's no kind of ego in there. It's really just the purity of the teaching coming through, which is really important for us. And that's what makes the biggest difference for us, helping others find that because we're already having
the experience. Otherwise it's kind of like, you know, understanding something theoretically, reading the book about it and then trying to teach somebody else. And it's like, really? You need the experience. And and on that retreat, I had another like, quite transcendent experience where I was again, the pain was building up and I was also struggling to walk. It was going up a hill and and it was all I could do. I had to stop several times on the way up. And um, by the time I got to the top of the hill, just relief that I was there and I could now relax and I just sat down. I couldn't even walk into the room, the meditation room. I was so exhausted and the pain was so intense. And I just sat down and and cried. And I was just like, I can't do this like this. How am I going to manage on this beautiful location? But it's this hill. It's a hillside. So it was up and down hills and, um, I just remember again, just thinking, what do I do? And in the previous night there'd been a talk about pain, um, presenting this idea that there is a choice between peace or pain in any given moment. And, and in my desperation, I was just like, well, I want peace, I just I want peace, I want peace, I want peace. Um, and in that moment again, I was just transformed into just. A really beautiful, gentle experience of peace. And there was just no there wasn't even an idea of pain. And it being gone, there was just peace and. And so again, these experiences kind of built on on and on and on really. So it became more stable, it became more tangible. And I got to see how to choose for that, rather than that being a spontaneous, you know, release in the moment. Because I wasn't quite sure how it was happening. I knew it was happening. I knew there was surrender involved. But, um, surrender often is something we try to do. Um, and you can't try to do surrender from the mind. It is. It's it's a coming back to self and it's where you have your attention. Um, and so that became more and more apparent to me. And, and so that's why I then wanted to share that. And I've kind of become the specialist on pain in the community because I know what it's like. And and just to give one more example as well, because like this was the long term chronic pain, um, that then just I kind of got a handle on and I still have the condition now, for example, it could still lead to me not being able to walk sometimes, but even that's falling away, you know, like there's a strength that's coming into my back. Um, which is quite surprising, actually. Um, and yeah, there was one more example which was then acute pain. Um, I broke my ribs. And with broken ribs. I'm like, well, no, I'm just going to have to put up with this pain and the immobility from it. You know, like, I don't know if you've ever had anything broken, particularly with ribs. Like you can't move, you can't breathe, you can't smile if you sneeze. It's a nightmare, you know. And so I'm like, well, for me, I wanted to explore and see what was possible within this experience. And so after a few days, I think it was about a a week of suffering. I started to explore with what I knew to just allow 100% and notice the stillness and silence that I had now being able to choose for consciously. And. And within that experience, I got little fleeting times where the pain just went or suffering fell away, and I could still feel the sight of the broken ribs. So like the sensation was still there. But the judgment about the sensation, this is seeing the thinking and the whole story about the pain that fell away. And with that, the suffering falls away. And not only did the pain go, um, I could also reach and grab my drink without being winded. So it's like it it freed up my body. There was a looseness, I suppose, and a relaxation in there when when I was fully present and allowing of the pain. Um, and so, yeah, I've just continued on from that day, you know, that was in what, 2013 when I broke my ribs. And, you know, since then it's been about helping others.
U1
14:22
I've got so many questions. I feel like we need to. Back to the first two minutes. I didn't want to interrupt you. 1s Can we start with 1s not to devalue the fact you made an attempt on your life and not to dwell on it? But can I ask, was it purely the intensity of your pain cat like tripled by being a new mom and maybe not sleeping in, you know, 100 other factors on top of that? Were you really was it purely trying to escape the pain that drove you to that, the physical pain or the suffering and everything that was attached to it?
U2
15:00
Uh, well, for a start, I don't think you can have physical pain without there being mental and emotional pain. I think that comes with it. There's more of a component of emotional pain than we realize. Um, so for me, it was just. But, but, but in that moment, I would have answered you. Yeah, it's a physical pain. I
need that physical pain to stop. It was it was just mind numbing. It was relentless. And I just I couldn't live like that anymore. But it wasn't just the pain, it was the inability to move. I had two young kids. I couldn't, you know, get down on the floor and play with them. I couldn't put my own socks. I could dress myself, you know? So like, for me, I just felt like a worthless human being. Um, but the primary factor was I just needed that pain to stop. 1s Mhm.
U1
15:45
Well and then you rapidly jumped from that into, you had a experience of um
U2
15:53
transformation basically where you went from experiencing such mind numbing pain to. A transcendence of that. How
U1
16:03
did you get from that to that in that very first experience?
U2
16:10
Well, I mean, in that moment, I had no clue how I got to that because it just it's just like it spontaneously happened. But now, with my understanding, um, there was just surrender. Like, I totally and utterly surrendered to the moment. Like, I didn't want to be there. So I was just like, I don't care what happens, I'm done, you know? And that was actually a surrender. And within that, um, with, you know, looking into my son's eyes with just the purity and the innocence in that, it just transported me into his world, if you like. Um, and so it's like looking into his eyes was just a sea of peace. And I think with and love the state exactly. And absolutely unconditional love and like children, you know, are there for you no matter what you do, no matter how much you mess up as a parent, they love you unconditionally. And and I think it was that unconditional love that just, uh, caught my attention for a moment, I suppose. I stopped with the struggling and pushing against the experience, and I just fully opened up into just being in that moment. And so. And I know anyone who does that for whatever reason triggers it, then you will experience peace and it will be a transcendent experience, because it will be so far removed from the world of suffering that you've been living in, that it will be mind blowing and it will be forever, um, it will forever alter the course of your life because you will see what is possible as a direct living experience, not just as a lovely concept, but somebody tells you so for me. Yeah. Um, uh, in some respects sort of, um, happened, but in others I do. It was surrender.
U1
17:55
Well, I think the surrender and the allowance of love are almost on the same spectrum, aren't they, when we totally surrender. And then you have the eyes of your son looking at you with pure love. You probably had that very fleeting window of dropping resistance and allowing love in, in a, in a, in a, in a minuscule of time. That was just something that changed the. Default programming that was circulating up until that point. A few more questions, though, about having back pain at 12. How did your parents handle a 12 year old with pretty intense back pain?
U2
18:38
Um, it was really about fixing me, you know, my, my, my dad was a dentist, and so he was a scientist. Um, and so for him, the body's a mechanical thing. And so if there's something wrong with it, then it just needs altering or bolting together or something along those lines. And so at that point in time, I was just taken to an osteopath. And in some respects, that's maybe a little bit more forward thinking and open minded of them. Um, but, uh, that is what helped. It did help with the pain and it managed the pain. Um, so yeah, that was there. But it also.
U1
19:13
But it also probably gave you the message as a kid that something was broken and something did need fixing. I guess if you went to multiple practitioners and what would you in hindsight? Is there anything you would encourage a parent to do differently with a child in that situation?
U2
19:33
Well with what I know now. Um, it would be more about, uh, supporting the child in their emotional world with with how they are coping with life, whether they feel supported. Because I do feel like the body reflects how we feel as a person. And so if we don't feel supported in life, I think the back, um, legs, pelvic area, you know, we're going to have issues with that. Um, because the body is like the mind, and the body is one thing in my experience. We talk about mind body connection and we see that, you know, every thought that we have is felt in the body. Every emotion that we have is felt in the body. And, um, and so for me, it's like the dumping ground. Everything ends up there. And if we don't resolve and learn to process our emotions, then the body suffers. And I think the back is one of the main areas where we don't feel supported, we don't feel loved. Uh, and we can be loved, you know, like, my parents loved me, and I knew they loved me. But I don't think I saw it demonstrated in my everyday life. For example, I was bullied at school, um, around this time when actually I'm just realizing this now. Actually, I was bullied at school and around at that time, um, was probably the worst bullying that I experienced. And so. One of the things my mom would say to me was just like, sticks and stones may hurt your bones, but names will never hurt you. And like for me, I'm like, but it does hurt though it does hurt. I feel so lost and alone and abandoned in the environment at school and nothing was done in those days. Bullying wasn't addressed by teachers, so you just had to silently put up with it and suffer. And I think that's what led. Knowing what I know now, I think that's what led to the back pain. And so I think for me, parents, you support yourself primarily actually. And that's what my next book is going to be about is that until the parents look after their own experience, they're not necessarily going to be like, my mom didn't know what she was. She didn't know how much that made it harder for me. She just didn't know she was trying to help me in the only way she knew how. And I think we are always doing the best that we know how. Um, but for me, it's just like going beyond that and understanding what actually is going to make a difference and supporting somebody knowing that they are loved and are seen and heard and that you are going to step up and do something about it and nurture your own experience as a parent. Because that's what I've seen with my own children who are now 20 and 23, that I've passed on some of those patterns from my mom, unwittingly, when I swore I never would. You know, I'm never going to become like that. And my mom's a lovely lady. You would. You would probably love her. She's very, very kind and gentle, but very fearful. And so that fear comes across as control, um, and struggling in her own experience, she couldn't then be there, you know, to, to regulate her own emotions. So I couldn't regulate my mind. And yeah, I just felt abandoned and there was no support and that's my back. So
U1
22:36
here's so here's a question. Do you think you would be a nice a monk today if you hadn't had your back pain experience?
U2
22:45
Oh, I you know, I don't think I would. For me, all the bad stuff in my life, all the suffering led me to the moment and pushed me beyond the the day to day experience that most people have to want to go for more. And I don't think if I hadn't had that level of pain, I don't think I would go for more. And I am actually really, really grateful for every experience because it's brought me to where I am right now. Um, and I think pain actually has become a signpost for me. Like whenever there's any tension, I don't experience it so much as pain. Now, there's certainly not the suffering, but there's still tension, um, and a pressure in my body, tense spots in my body. And so for me, it's always an invitation to see how am I managing live? Where where am I emotions? Is there something bothering me? Is there something whether it's, you know, in the moment at hand or whether there and usually, even if it is, it's something from the past that's triggered us, you know, some place where we're holding on to an idea about ourselves that is dysfunctional and isn't really serving us. And so for me, it enables me to open up into a greater and greater awareness of who am what I am as a direct experience. And so I welcome pain in actually. And the more you welcome it in, the more you go beyond it, and the more you recognize that it's just there to help you be the greatest version of yourself. Ultimately, um,
U1
24:10
and I, I often say that to patients, but there's a
U2
24:16
there's a time when you can say that, and then there's a time when, uh, it's a triggering comment. Um, but certainly I think reframing our relationship with pain is a lot of what I do, because I think if we perceive it differently, we experience it differently. And if we take away that it's wrong and that it needs to go and something's not right, you know, and instead we see it as an invitation. Uh, a reflection of something that needs a bit of attention. Um, and I do think.
U1
24:52
By the time it ends up in the physical structure.
U2
24:57
There's
U1
24:57
been a practiced belief with an emotional addiction to it. And so when you experienced when you talked about your I could choose peace and it would disappear, but then it would come back and then I would practice again. And then, you know, like, I think you were building the muscle
U2
25:18
of the beliefs, choices, mental choices, and which is a neurological pathway in the brain. If we really dial it down and it's neuroplasticity, you have to build that pathway of consciousness. Um. And almost. We can then see the pain as a measure of how you're doing. You know the better act that I get.
U1
25:42
The pain responds to that. But then we also shouldn't beat ourselves up. If that's taking a long time, it may mean that there's something deeper that we're not seeing. So it's it is it's another aspect of our experience in life. And I think we all experience pain in different ways at different times. Um, what are your thoughts then on medicating it? Do you ever see there's a role for the medication of pain?
U2
26:11
Uh, yeah, I do actually. Um, because, uh, until we get practiced at being able to choose for a different experience, you have to see the symptoms or you'll go crazy. So, yeah, I think there are times when you do need to medicate. Um, medication doesn't work for me. Um, which I'm actually very grateful for, because then it had to find another way. Um, but, you know, like having osteopathic treatments handled the pain. And along the way, uh, things like EFT helped for a while. Drumming helped for a while. Um, and so, yeah, I think it's important to, to soothe the symptoms to to address that in any way that you find it helps. You know, a lot of people I talk to, they go, well, if I'm distracted, you know, if I've got friends over the pain, I don't notice the pain for a little while. And so I just work on that. I build on that and start to recognize, get people to recognize that it isn't there all of the time. Therefore it doesn't need to be there any of the time. Um, but an awful lot of that is just having the compassion and letting people just really just land in this moment and be and let it hurt. Let it be hard for a moment because that drops that top level of resistance away. And so I'm never kind of pushing people to jump to the end result. It's really like, let's be where we are right now. What one small baby step can we take for you to start to see that the pain isn't as locked in as solid as you think it is. So once we start to do that, it starts to inform their experience. And then meantime, there's other things and exercises that I do just to start to get them to, to start meditating, because that always makes the difference. It gives you more conscious choice for a start. Um, but then there are other, other little things that you can do that just help soothe the symptoms. Um, and I've got a workbook and journal to go with my first book as well that then has lots of little tiny bite sized tips and hints and suggestions and exercises so people can start to explore their own experience. But be comfortable, you know, to to not. Um, sometimes pushing yourself as great because it gets so horrible that you the surrender just happens spontaneously. But other times, like you, you could destabilise somebody's mental health. And mental health is really, really important within this. Because when mental health flares up, it takes away our choice. We get lost in there, what the thoughts are saying. And so and it takes away our choice, takes away our freedom. So it's so important to actually work with somebody where they're at right now. Um, however that looks for them. So what I do with people varies from person to person, um, dependent on what I suggest and how they respond to what I suggest. Yeah, of course. And we reinforce that every episode that the pathway. To healing is so unique. It's as unique as a fingerprint. You know, everyone, all these collective experiences we take on, you know, to get to where we're at now are all in forming the permission slips. Perhaps we give ourselves of what's going to be required to heal or move forward. And so it's very, you know, always working within the belief structure of someone's existing experiences. Um, something that I think dictates the uniqueness of what's required moving forward rather than try and alter their whole mental structure. I think it's. Working within what they currently believe, challenging a few. But allowing a few, you know, because they hopefully know themselves better than I know them or you know them. So. So if I say mirror, um, a bulletproof back, what would that what does that bring up for you? 2s For me, a bulletproof back is is tapping into the strength that's already there. Like, I think I had started to believe that my back was very weak. Um, and then I read a book by Doctor Johnson, uh, who you've probably heard about. Um, and, and that kind of informed me that actually, it might not be mechanical, you know, and that my back actually was stronger than I thought it was. And that actually gave me a little bit of of confidence and hope. Um, and so for me, yeah, to have that a flexible, strong, free of all tension, um, because I think the tension things that I thought, like, I've got scoliosis and I thought that was just the way my, my spine was formed. Now, what I'm starting to recognize is it's tension held my back, pulling my spine from one side to the other. And actually it frees up now. So so yeah, it's it's allowing the inner movement of healing to happen so that that you do allow that strength. So it's a difference between force and strength. I think when there's tension in the body, there's forcefulness in there. Um, and then starting to all you have to do is recognize it as well.
So for me, the bulletproof back is, is consciousness and the recognition that there is strength there. Um, and in just even the hope that it is there led to a different experience for me. So, yeah. And it's very freeing then and then there's flexibility. Like there's flexibility in the way you're thinking. Then there's more flexibility in my body. So yeah, for me it's that, um, holistic approach rather than the fixing the mechanical aspect.
U1
31:29
Yeah, I love that. And what would be your top three tips in for someone who's hopefully not in as drastic, mind numbing pain as you found yourself in? But, you know, maybe they're approaching that. Maybe. Maybe they're losing hope. And, you know, hopefully we can offer hope with these conversations and these shared stories. But to that person who's approaching that dark space, would you have some tips?
U2
31:57
I have. Yeah, a ton of tips.
U1
32:00
Um, keep it to three.
U2
32:01
Yeah, 1s I will, and then they can get the book. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think for me, one of the things I've been playing with people recently is to put less effort in. When you move like we, we move almost like the we've got that, you know, with a car and you've got it partially like my old banger of a Ford Fiesta. I could drive around with the handbrake partially applied and not realize it in. The wear and tear on the car was immense. Um, and I knew there was something wrong. And that for me is just like to to when you're moving. Like when you're walking, like, let your legs do the walking. Because the crazy thing is, is like often people lean in to the walk and it's almost like their mind is like you're you're often your thoughts go ahead to where you know you're going rather than where you're walking right now. So it's almost like imagining you're walking on the spot. Let your legs do the walking and then just put less effort in. If you're typing at the keyboard, you know, notice here and just put less effort in and everything you do see, can you put less effort in, can you put less effort in. And that can actually lead to an awful lot more flexibility and relaxation in the body, which really, really helps the back pain and any pain actually. So that's my that's my number one tip. I think that's a
U1
33:16
great one. That's a unique one. We haven't heard that one. And I think the, uh, exercise physiologists and the strength and conditioning coaches would be falling off their seats about now. But I love that because it's so aligned with the Feldenkrais concept of ease and flow and grace, and that we move best when relaxed and effortless. And I think we get it wrong with back pain a lot by trying to add more strength, add more tension, add more. You know it. If something's not weak, there's no point adding more strength. And you know, I think that just can really backfire. And it's a myth. I think it's one of the biggest myths of back pain is that everyone needs to have a six pack abdominal unit and glutes popping out their backside. You know, it's so much of it is nothing to do with your physical strength. And in fact. Your experience of going up the mountain. You know, you can become deconditioned in back pain that if we're not moving and everything's hurting, we do get deconditioned. But when the pain eases, we naturally have an inclination to want to do a bit more. And in that doing more of the things we love. The
strength just returns organically. It doesn't even have to be, um, added to always if you have a fairly active life, so that even that can be a gradual return of just mobility that kicks in as we experience more movements that don't hurt because we've relaxed into them. So that's great. Now, number two, what would you say number two tip.
U2
34:51
Um, so for me, um, observing the body without agenda and actually just being where the body is for a start, um, it's actually a crazy how when we're thinking we're, like, living in the past or the future, and we're never right here, right now. So just for a moment to just close your eyes and. And just be where your body is and just observe your body almost like it's a science experiment, or you're an alien from outer space and you don't know what it's like, you don't know what's going on in there, and you just observe. Um, and I've got a little guided meditation on my YouTube channel for that actually just called Filling the Body, so that you can actually just come back to a more pure experience of it without the mind telling you how to experience it. What actually are the physical sensations like right now and just observe them. And so then the dialogue falls away and you can observe your body without the judgement, without the agenda to heal, without any opinions. Even so, you can actually have the pure experience. And then your body thrives with your, your, your full conscious attention on it. And healing is initiated. And it's very it's very soothing. It's very healing can intensify at times because it kind of highlights where you're resisting. Um, so the guided meditation can kind of help you so that you don't go into your reactive mode. Um, but that for me is great. My second tip. And we'll put
U1
36:10
that link in the show notes. If you could send that to me afterwards. And what's your third
U2
36:14
tip? 1s Yeah. And the third tip is to, um, to start to recognize the pain story. Uh, and in that, it's really starting to notice the thoughts that you have about your pain. Um, and not really necessarily do anything with them. You know, for me, I just I noted them down and like, the more I was aware of the dialogue about my pain, um, the less that dialogue was in play. Like, I became more conscious of it because for me, um, suffering is an unconscious process. And if you relate unconsciousness to darkness. So like if you've got a room and it's completely dark, what do you do? You put the light on. And so starting to be more aware of the dialogue and, and what's happening in your body. Like if you suddenly having a really negative thought about your back, what's happened? Where do you feel that in the body, what do you notice? And then you really start to unwrap that pain story and it falls away by itself just in the recognition of it. So yeah, that's my third tip. They're great tips and I can't help, you know, we've come full circle. Actually, my very first episode of this program I ever did was with a lady, um, called Kay, who found immense relief in ascension meditation. Uh, and we talked about it as a pain relief strategy for her, and she talked about how she practiced it. She wasn't a monk, but she was an everyday person who had a hell of a lot of pain. And, um, she found it a really great adjunct to 100 other things that really just help to coexist. And, uh. You know, surrender a little bit better to the experience. So yeah, I feel like
U1
38:01
we're after 20 something episodes. We've done a full circle, which is kind of nice. Hey, thanks, Mira, for your time today. I really appreciate your tips. Can you know, you mentioned you've wrote some books. Would you like can you just tell us where listeners, um, could find some of these books of yours if they're interested in your workbook and exploring their own pain experience?
U2
38:22
Uh, yeah, sure. They're available on Amazon. Um, so yeah, Peace or Pain is the first book, and then there's a workbook and journal that I've just published actually recently, um, a few weeks ago to go with that. Um, that has a card deck in the back of it, um, printed in the pages. Um, and so it's really bite size and it can help you unpack some of the information that's in the first book, um, which is in a very conversational story, uh, by style, by the way, you know, so it's very relatable because I don't like just cold, hard, dry facts. For me, it's just like bringing it to life so people can relate in their own experience. Um, and then surrender is good for the soul because resistance is the cause of suffering. Um, is another one, and they're all available on Amazon. You can also find them through the links on my website, which is boundless hyphen meditation. Co.Uk. And there you'll find the courses that I teach to help people with, with, you know, to learn meditation to help with pain pain awareness course, for example. Um, and then there's also links from my YouTube channel. Marisha. Uh, where I've got a whole ton of video shorts already, and I'm releasing one each week. So if they subscribe, then they can be notified. And then the guided meditations are on there too. So, you know, you can start to actually, uh, explore what I'm talking about for your own direct experience, because that's when you know what's true and what's possible.
U1
39:43
Mhm. That's great I think. It's been great chatting to you and I just you know it blows my mind how much is out there for back pain sufferers which they possibly aren't aware. And I think having access to people like you online is just phenomenal. Now you know the traditional mode of thinking we have to see a physio or an osteo or I'm not saying we can't, but I think we can add layers that may help us shift a little bit faster if we're really stuck. It's just nice to know there's so many people with so many ideas, so many concepts, so many free resources that hopefully it just inspires and gives people a bit of hope that that darkness can have a bit of a light shone on from time to time by listening. So I really, really appreciate your time and thanks for being a guest.
U2
40:35
Ah. Thanks, Baron. It's wonderful to be here. And you know, and if I could just help one person, one more person. Recognize that there's another way, then. Yeah, that that's that's very fulfilling for me. So thank you for having me.
U1
40:47
Yeah. My pleasure.
Hi there listeners, welcome to another episode of the Building a Bulletproof Back podcast. I have Mira with me today who has an amazing story that I think is going to be really beneficial to some of you that are listening right now in a whole world of pain. We are talking about pain. We're going to be talking about how to alter your relationship with it, which is, I guess, fits under the modality of a mental and emotional strategy that we can bring to pain. Sometimes we talk about movement, sometimes we talk about core fitness. But I think with stubborn back pain, we need to be exploring all facets of the experience. And I think Mia is going to help us shed a little bit of light on certainly her experience. So thank you for your time. Mira. And um, over to you. Start sharing.
U2
0:55
Thanks, Marianne, and thanks for having me on the on the show. It's wonderful to be here. Um, and I love to be able to share about my story, actually, because it's been so transformational in the most unexpected of ways. And just for me, I think to start at the beginning, you know, really what started my back pain? I was only 12 years old. Um, and I slipped on a young. Yeah, I know, I know, so obviously I was just in secondary school is what we call it here in the UK. And, um. Yeah, I slipped on some soap, uh, while doing some washing up at my grandparents retirement party, and I landed on my coccyx. And yeah, nothing really hurt as such to start with. Obviously, the initial fall hurt, but I just couldn't walk for a little while, so like, it really jarred my entire system, I think. And so from that moment on, I started seeing an osteopath, and I was always getting aches and pains and tight spots and and and yeah, sometimes, like I'd wake up of a morning just being excruciating pain and not not being able to go to school and need to go and have an emergency appointment. And so it kind of it started all around that time. So yeah, it's very young really. Um, and so I actually can't remember a time before that really. Um, but well, for me, I think it's, it's, it's been remarkable to see how things have gone on, you know, like things obviously got an awful lot worse before they got better. Um, I experienced, um, what I've been told is a rare condition. When I became pregnant with my second child. With the first one, it was okay, um, which is called symphysis pubis dysfunction. And it's the ligament at the front of the pelvic bone that just stops working, stops functioning properly. Um, and so that left me not being able to walk, um, and then obviously pregnant. So, yeah, going through labor and everything was really, really difficult. And afterwards nothing went back together. Right. Um, and so that's a different part of the body, but it's the structure of the whole of the spine. So that's just led to absolutely excruciating pain, like, and not just, uh, you know, times when it was excruciating, just like permanently, like 24 over seven, day and night, it was really difficult to sleep. It was difficult to function. Um, and yeah, that for me was a really, really low point. Um, which as it went on, when my son was only a few years old, I didn't want to be here anymore. I was done, you know, like, I really didn't want to live. And so I did make an attempt on my life. Um, thankfully I was I was caught in the process of it, so it never happened. And but for me, that was when my life started. Because. Strangely, at the lowest point in my life, I had an amazing what you might call transcendent experience because I went from deeply suffering to absolute pristine peace. Like, it's just like the the bottom dropped out of my world in a good way. Like all the edges, all the friction, all the pressure just disappeared. And there wasn't even the idea of pain in that experience, actually, which is where the theme from my book came from. Peace or pain is, is a choice, depending on where your attention is, depending on if there's any resistance. And so for me, yeah, that experience. And I thought, well, if I can have that now, you know when this is my lowest point. If I can have this level of peace. With so much serenity and contentment and joy. Surely I can have that, you know, in the rest of the time. And so even when that experience then faded and the pain came back again, it it gave me something really tangible to hang on to, like that hope. And also the direct knowing from the experience that there is another way I can have a different experience. And so I kind of moved away from the trying to fix myself and mend my back pain and mend myself because I'm broken in some way. Um, and actually became more about being, being. The. 1s Here awareness that I now know that I am, that we all are. And when
we have an awareness of that of of presence, our experience of our our back pain, any pain utterly changes. So it's like there's two operating modes, one where there is the option of suffering and one where there's no suffering. So pain is always possible. For example, acute pain, you know, if you have an accident or something, uh, in the moment, like if you go to the dentist, for example, that still hurts. But, um, it's when it goes into long term chronic pain where it starts to become suffering. We call it pain, but it's actually a secondary pain of, of of suffering, which is a reaction. It's something we're doing is a habitual reaction. And recognizing that gives us the choice for peace in any given moment. And I started to get more and more tastes of that. Um, so when I went on retreats with the so I found the issue is restart. And that utterly changed my life. Um, where and I became one. I were a we're a group of monks. Um. It's non-religious. 1s Um, sorry,
U1
6:20
I was going to say. Can you explain what the Oscars are? Yeah.
U2
6:24
Yeah, yeah, sure. For sure. Um, so, yeah, as as a shires, we are basically a non-religious organisation. And, um, really the foundation in it is, is being yourself. So it's very, very simple and basic in a way. Um, and there are vowels that you take, but they're my core values anyway, you know, like honesty, um, non- violence and things like that. So for me, it was all a, you know, no brainer that this is what resonated for me. And what really caught my attention was the lack of judgment in, in the the issues that I met. There was no judgment towards me. There was no seeing me as a victim to my circumstance. So it's almost like they saw me in my perfection. And that enabled me to actually start to tap into the inner state of being who and what I really am, without the mind telling me who I am. Because that's the thing. We don't realize how much the mind governs our experience. That is a pure experience of this moment, which is our birthright and our natural state of being very, very natural. Like, this is not something you have to do. It's a it's an undoing of all the habits and the belief system and the way we've learned to perceive the world, to behave within the world. And so it's really easy to change. Um, and we use a practice called ascension. Um, and the ascension techniques are very simple and they're mechanical. So they just bring you back to an experience of presence and enliven it so it becomes easier to consciously recognize it, you know, to actually have that as a direct living experience and so on. One of these retreats, I had this experience where the pain was just building up and up and up and up and up, and I thought, I'm going to go bonkers here. You know, like, I just I can't take it anymore. This is getting to the, the levels that I can't cope with again. Um, and I went and asked a teacher for help and, you know, they just looked at me with such kind, compassionate, accepting, loving eyes and just invited me. Could I let the pain be here right now in this moment? And, you know, I kind of wanted to scream at them and go, no, that's why I came to you for help. I want the pain. God, I want it gone. And instead they were just going. But could you let it be here right now, in this moment? And it was kind of already here. So I'm like, all right then, you know, and in that moment where I just actually surrendered and just went, okay, you've got me. I'm just going to do what you ask and let it be here 100%. And in that moment, the pain vanished without a trace. And and it stayed away. And for me, I'm just like, what just happened? 2s And it was quite a shock that I could go from one moment in extreme pain to the next moment utterly gone. And it's almost just like I was looking for it. Like where, where, where is it? And and yet it was just gone. Um, and it did eventually come back because, uh, the habit always reasserts itself until we establish the new one more, you know, solidly. Um, so it's kind of a back and forth dance, you know, with one minute, um, I could just be using the ascension techniques and all, all pain gone and easy. It might last into my everyday life a little bit. And it was becoming more and more sustainable. Um, and so I ended up wanting to become an usher because, like, for me, this is just like, well, people need to know what is possible. Um, and I want this. I want to see what else is possible in my own experience. So I went on the course, which was in northern Spain for, for six months, and an awful lot of that was just really, um, deepening your own experience. So when you teach, you're teaching from experience and not from a concept. And so there's no kind of ego in there. It's really just the purity of the teaching coming through, which is really important for us. And that's what makes the biggest difference for us, helping others find that because we're already having
the experience. Otherwise it's kind of like, you know, understanding something theoretically, reading the book about it and then trying to teach somebody else. And it's like, really? You need the experience. And and on that retreat, I had another like, quite transcendent experience where I was again, the pain was building up and I was also struggling to walk. It was going up a hill and and it was all I could do. I had to stop several times on the way up. And um, by the time I got to the top of the hill, just relief that I was there and I could now relax and I just sat down. I couldn't even walk into the room, the meditation room. I was so exhausted and the pain was so intense. And I just sat down and and cried. And I was just like, I can't do this like this. How am I going to manage on this beautiful location? But it's this hill. It's a hillside. So it was up and down hills and, um, I just remember again, just thinking, what do I do? And in the previous night there'd been a talk about pain, um, presenting this idea that there is a choice between peace or pain in any given moment. And, and in my desperation, I was just like, well, I want peace, I just I want peace, I want peace, I want peace. Um, and in that moment again, I was just transformed into just. A really beautiful, gentle experience of peace. And there was just no there wasn't even an idea of pain. And it being gone, there was just peace and. And so again, these experiences kind of built on on and on and on really. So it became more stable, it became more tangible. And I got to see how to choose for that, rather than that being a spontaneous, you know, release in the moment. Because I wasn't quite sure how it was happening. I knew it was happening. I knew there was surrender involved. But, um, surrender often is something we try to do. Um, and you can't try to do surrender from the mind. It is. It's it's a coming back to self and it's where you have your attention. Um, and so that became more and more apparent to me. And, and so that's why I then wanted to share that. And I've kind of become the specialist on pain in the community because I know what it's like. And and just to give one more example as well, because like this was the long term chronic pain, um, that then just I kind of got a handle on and I still have the condition now, for example, it could still lead to me not being able to walk sometimes, but even that's falling away, you know, like there's a strength that's coming into my back. Um, which is quite surprising, actually. Um, and yeah, there was one more example which was then acute pain. Um, I broke my ribs. And with broken ribs. I'm like, well, no, I'm just going to have to put up with this pain and the immobility from it. You know, like, I don't know if you've ever had anything broken, particularly with ribs. Like you can't move, you can't breathe, you can't smile if you sneeze. It's a nightmare, you know. And so I'm like, well, for me, I wanted to explore and see what was possible within this experience. And so after a few days, I think it was about a a week of suffering. I started to explore with what I knew to just allow 100% and notice the stillness and silence that I had now being able to choose for consciously. And. And within that experience, I got little fleeting times where the pain just went or suffering fell away, and I could still feel the sight of the broken ribs. So like the sensation was still there. But the judgment about the sensation, this is seeing the thinking and the whole story about the pain that fell away. And with that, the suffering falls away. And not only did the pain go, um, I could also reach and grab my drink without being winded. So it's like it it freed up my body. There was a looseness, I suppose, and a relaxation in there when when I was fully present and allowing of the pain. Um, and so, yeah, I've just continued on from that day, you know, that was in what, 2013 when I broke my ribs. And, you know, since then it's been about helping others.
U1
14:22
I've got so many questions. I feel like we need to. Back to the first two minutes. I didn't want to interrupt you. 1s Can we start with 1s not to devalue the fact you made an attempt on your life and not to dwell on it? But can I ask, was it purely the intensity of your pain cat like tripled by being a new mom and maybe not sleeping in, you know, 100 other factors on top of that? Were you really was it purely trying to escape the pain that drove you to that, the physical pain or the suffering and everything that was attached to it?
U2
15:00
Uh, well, for a start, I don't think you can have physical pain without there being mental and emotional pain. I think that comes with it. There's more of a component of emotional pain than we realize. Um, so for me, it was just. But, but, but in that moment, I would have answered you. Yeah, it's a physical pain. I
need that physical pain to stop. It was it was just mind numbing. It was relentless. And I just I couldn't live like that anymore. But it wasn't just the pain, it was the inability to move. I had two young kids. I couldn't, you know, get down on the floor and play with them. I couldn't put my own socks. I could dress myself, you know? So like, for me, I just felt like a worthless human being. Um, but the primary factor was I just needed that pain to stop. 1s Mhm.
U1
15:45
Well and then you rapidly jumped from that into, you had a experience of um
U2
15:53
transformation basically where you went from experiencing such mind numbing pain to. A transcendence of that. How
U1
16:03
did you get from that to that in that very first experience?
U2
16:10
Well, I mean, in that moment, I had no clue how I got to that because it just it's just like it spontaneously happened. But now, with my understanding, um, there was just surrender. Like, I totally and utterly surrendered to the moment. Like, I didn't want to be there. So I was just like, I don't care what happens, I'm done, you know? And that was actually a surrender. And within that, um, with, you know, looking into my son's eyes with just the purity and the innocence in that, it just transported me into his world, if you like. Um, and so it's like looking into his eyes was just a sea of peace. And I think with and love the state exactly. And absolutely unconditional love and like children, you know, are there for you no matter what you do, no matter how much you mess up as a parent, they love you unconditionally. And and I think it was that unconditional love that just, uh, caught my attention for a moment, I suppose. I stopped with the struggling and pushing against the experience, and I just fully opened up into just being in that moment. And so. And I know anyone who does that for whatever reason triggers it, then you will experience peace and it will be a transcendent experience, because it will be so far removed from the world of suffering that you've been living in, that it will be mind blowing and it will be forever, um, it will forever alter the course of your life because you will see what is possible as a direct living experience, not just as a lovely concept, but somebody tells you so for me. Yeah. Um, uh, in some respects sort of, um, happened, but in others I do. It was surrender.
U1
17:55
Well, I think the surrender and the allowance of love are almost on the same spectrum, aren't they, when we totally surrender. And then you have the eyes of your son looking at you with pure love. You probably had that very fleeting window of dropping resistance and allowing love in, in a, in a, in a, in a minuscule of time. That was just something that changed the. Default programming that was circulating up until that point. A few more questions, though, about having back pain at 12. How did your parents handle a 12 year old with pretty intense back pain?
U2
18:38
Um, it was really about fixing me, you know, my, my, my dad was a dentist, and so he was a scientist. Um, and so for him, the body's a mechanical thing. And so if there's something wrong with it, then it just needs altering or bolting together or something along those lines. And so at that point in time, I was just taken to an osteopath. And in some respects, that's maybe a little bit more forward thinking and open minded of them. Um, but, uh, that is what helped. It did help with the pain and it managed the pain. Um, so yeah, that was there. But it also.
U1
19:13
But it also probably gave you the message as a kid that something was broken and something did need fixing. I guess if you went to multiple practitioners and what would you in hindsight? Is there anything you would encourage a parent to do differently with a child in that situation?
U2
19:33
Well with what I know now. Um, it would be more about, uh, supporting the child in their emotional world with with how they are coping with life, whether they feel supported. Because I do feel like the body reflects how we feel as a person. And so if we don't feel supported in life, I think the back, um, legs, pelvic area, you know, we're going to have issues with that. Um, because the body is like the mind, and the body is one thing in my experience. We talk about mind body connection and we see that, you know, every thought that we have is felt in the body. Every emotion that we have is felt in the body. And, um, and so for me, it's like the dumping ground. Everything ends up there. And if we don't resolve and learn to process our emotions, then the body suffers. And I think the back is one of the main areas where we don't feel supported, we don't feel loved. Uh, and we can be loved, you know, like, my parents loved me, and I knew they loved me. But I don't think I saw it demonstrated in my everyday life. For example, I was bullied at school, um, around this time when actually I'm just realizing this now. Actually, I was bullied at school and around at that time, um, was probably the worst bullying that I experienced. And so. One of the things my mom would say to me was just like, sticks and stones may hurt your bones, but names will never hurt you. And like for me, I'm like, but it does hurt though it does hurt. I feel so lost and alone and abandoned in the environment at school and nothing was done in those days. Bullying wasn't addressed by teachers, so you just had to silently put up with it and suffer. And I think that's what led. Knowing what I know now, I think that's what led to the back pain. And so I think for me, parents, you support yourself primarily actually. And that's what my next book is going to be about is that until the parents look after their own experience, they're not necessarily going to be like, my mom didn't know what she was. She didn't know how much that made it harder for me. She just didn't know she was trying to help me in the only way she knew how. And I think we are always doing the best that we know how. Um, but for me, it's just like going beyond that and understanding what actually is going to make a difference and supporting somebody knowing that they are loved and are seen and heard and that you are going to step up and do something about it and nurture your own experience as a parent. Because that's what I've seen with my own children who are now 20 and 23, that I've passed on some of those patterns from my mom, unwittingly, when I swore I never would. You know, I'm never going to become like that. And my mom's a lovely lady. You would. You would probably love her. She's very, very kind and gentle, but very fearful. And so that fear comes across as control, um, and struggling in her own experience, she couldn't then be there, you know, to, to regulate her own emotions. So I couldn't regulate my mind. And yeah, I just felt abandoned and there was no support and that's my back. So
U1
22:36
here's so here's a question. Do you think you would be a nice a monk today if you hadn't had your back pain experience?
U2
22:45
Oh, I you know, I don't think I would. For me, all the bad stuff in my life, all the suffering led me to the moment and pushed me beyond the the day to day experience that most people have to want to go for more. And I don't think if I hadn't had that level of pain, I don't think I would go for more. And I am actually really, really grateful for every experience because it's brought me to where I am right now. Um, and I think pain actually has become a signpost for me. Like whenever there's any tension, I don't experience it so much as pain. Now, there's certainly not the suffering, but there's still tension, um, and a pressure in my body, tense spots in my body. And so for me, it's always an invitation to see how am I managing live? Where where am I emotions? Is there something bothering me? Is there something whether it's, you know, in the moment at hand or whether there and usually, even if it is, it's something from the past that's triggered us, you know, some place where we're holding on to an idea about ourselves that is dysfunctional and isn't really serving us. And so for me, it enables me to open up into a greater and greater awareness of who am what I am as a direct experience. And so I welcome pain in actually. And the more you welcome it in, the more you go beyond it, and the more you recognize that it's just there to help you be the greatest version of yourself. Ultimately, um,
U1
24:10
and I, I often say that to patients, but there's a
U2
24:16
there's a time when you can say that, and then there's a time when, uh, it's a triggering comment. Um, but certainly I think reframing our relationship with pain is a lot of what I do, because I think if we perceive it differently, we experience it differently. And if we take away that it's wrong and that it needs to go and something's not right, you know, and instead we see it as an invitation. Uh, a reflection of something that needs a bit of attention. Um, and I do think.
U1
24:52
By the time it ends up in the physical structure.
U2
24:57
There's
U1
24:57
been a practiced belief with an emotional addiction to it. And so when you experienced when you talked about your I could choose peace and it would disappear, but then it would come back and then I would practice again. And then, you know, like, I think you were building the muscle
U2
25:18
of the beliefs, choices, mental choices, and which is a neurological pathway in the brain. If we really dial it down and it's neuroplasticity, you have to build that pathway of consciousness. Um. And almost. We can then see the pain as a measure of how you're doing. You know the better act that I get.
U1
25:42
The pain responds to that. But then we also shouldn't beat ourselves up. If that's taking a long time, it may mean that there's something deeper that we're not seeing. So it's it is it's another aspect of our experience in life. And I think we all experience pain in different ways at different times. Um, what are your thoughts then on medicating it? Do you ever see there's a role for the medication of pain?
U2
26:11
Uh, yeah, I do actually. Um, because, uh, until we get practiced at being able to choose for a different experience, you have to see the symptoms or you'll go crazy. So, yeah, I think there are times when you do need to medicate. Um, medication doesn't work for me. Um, which I'm actually very grateful for, because then it had to find another way. Um, but, you know, like having osteopathic treatments handled the pain. And along the way, uh, things like EFT helped for a while. Drumming helped for a while. Um, and so, yeah, I think it's important to, to soothe the symptoms to to address that in any way that you find it helps. You know, a lot of people I talk to, they go, well, if I'm distracted, you know, if I've got friends over the pain, I don't notice the pain for a little while. And so I just work on that. I build on that and start to recognize, get people to recognize that it isn't there all of the time. Therefore it doesn't need to be there any of the time. Um, but an awful lot of that is just having the compassion and letting people just really just land in this moment and be and let it hurt. Let it be hard for a moment because that drops that top level of resistance away. And so I'm never kind of pushing people to jump to the end result. It's really like, let's be where we are right now. What one small baby step can we take for you to start to see that the pain isn't as locked in as solid as you think it is. So once we start to do that, it starts to inform their experience. And then meantime, there's other things and exercises that I do just to start to get them to, to start meditating, because that always makes the difference. It gives you more conscious choice for a start. Um, but then there are other, other little things that you can do that just help soothe the symptoms. Um, and I've got a workbook and journal to go with my first book as well that then has lots of little tiny bite sized tips and hints and suggestions and exercises so people can start to explore their own experience. But be comfortable, you know, to to not. Um, sometimes pushing yourself as great because it gets so horrible that you the surrender just happens spontaneously. But other times, like you, you could destabilise somebody's mental health. And mental health is really, really important within this. Because when mental health flares up, it takes away our choice. We get lost in there, what the thoughts are saying. And so and it takes away our choice, takes away our freedom. So it's so important to actually work with somebody where they're at right now. Um, however that looks for them. So what I do with people varies from person to person, um, dependent on what I suggest and how they respond to what I suggest. Yeah, of course. And we reinforce that every episode that the pathway. To healing is so unique. It's as unique as a fingerprint. You know, everyone, all these collective experiences we take on, you know, to get to where we're at now are all in forming the permission slips. Perhaps we give ourselves of what's going to be required to heal or move forward. And so it's very, you know, always working within the belief structure of someone's existing experiences. Um, something that I think dictates the uniqueness of what's required moving forward rather than try and alter their whole mental structure. I think it's. Working within what they currently believe, challenging a few. But allowing a few, you know, because they hopefully know themselves better than I know them or you know them. So. So if I say mirror, um, a bulletproof back, what would that what does that bring up for you? 2s For me, a bulletproof back is is tapping into the strength that's already there. Like, I think I had started to believe that my back was very weak. Um, and then I read a book by Doctor Johnson, uh, who you've probably heard about. Um, and, and that kind of informed me that actually, it might not be mechanical, you know, and that my back actually was stronger than I thought it was. And that actually gave me a little bit of of confidence and hope. Um, and so for me, yeah, to have that a flexible, strong, free of all tension, um, because I think the tension things that I thought, like, I've got scoliosis and I thought that was just the way my, my spine was formed. Now, what I'm starting to recognize is it's tension held my back, pulling my spine from one side to the other. And actually it frees up now. So so yeah, it's it's allowing the inner movement of healing to happen so that that you do allow that strength. So it's a difference between force and strength. I think when there's tension in the body, there's forcefulness in there. Um, and then starting to all you have to do is recognize it as well.
So for me, the bulletproof back is, is consciousness and the recognition that there is strength there. Um, and in just even the hope that it is there led to a different experience for me. So, yeah. And it's very freeing then and then there's flexibility. Like there's flexibility in the way you're thinking. Then there's more flexibility in my body. So yeah, for me it's that, um, holistic approach rather than the fixing the mechanical aspect.
U1
31:29
Yeah, I love that. And what would be your top three tips in for someone who's hopefully not in as drastic, mind numbing pain as you found yourself in? But, you know, maybe they're approaching that. Maybe. Maybe they're losing hope. And, you know, hopefully we can offer hope with these conversations and these shared stories. But to that person who's approaching that dark space, would you have some tips?
U2
31:57
I have. Yeah, a ton of tips.
U1
32:00
Um, keep it to three.
U2
32:01
Yeah, 1s I will, and then they can get the book. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think for me, one of the things I've been playing with people recently is to put less effort in. When you move like we, we move almost like the we've got that, you know, with a car and you've got it partially like my old banger of a Ford Fiesta. I could drive around with the handbrake partially applied and not realize it in. The wear and tear on the car was immense. Um, and I knew there was something wrong. And that for me is just like to to when you're moving. Like when you're walking, like, let your legs do the walking. Because the crazy thing is, is like often people lean in to the walk and it's almost like their mind is like you're you're often your thoughts go ahead to where you know you're going rather than where you're walking right now. So it's almost like imagining you're walking on the spot. Let your legs do the walking and then just put less effort in. If you're typing at the keyboard, you know, notice here and just put less effort in and everything you do see, can you put less effort in, can you put less effort in. And that can actually lead to an awful lot more flexibility and relaxation in the body, which really, really helps the back pain and any pain actually. So that's my that's my number one tip. I think that's a
U1
33:16
great one. That's a unique one. We haven't heard that one. And I think the, uh, exercise physiologists and the strength and conditioning coaches would be falling off their seats about now. But I love that because it's so aligned with the Feldenkrais concept of ease and flow and grace, and that we move best when relaxed and effortless. And I think we get it wrong with back pain a lot by trying to add more strength, add more tension, add more. You know it. If something's not weak, there's no point adding more strength. And you know, I think that just can really backfire. And it's a myth. I think it's one of the biggest myths of back pain is that everyone needs to have a six pack abdominal unit and glutes popping out their backside. You know, it's so much of it is nothing to do with your physical strength. And in fact. Your experience of going up the mountain. You know, you can become deconditioned in back pain that if we're not moving and everything's hurting, we do get deconditioned. But when the pain eases, we naturally have an inclination to want to do a bit more. And in that doing more of the things we love. The
strength just returns organically. It doesn't even have to be, um, added to always if you have a fairly active life, so that even that can be a gradual return of just mobility that kicks in as we experience more movements that don't hurt because we've relaxed into them. So that's great. Now, number two, what would you say number two tip.
U2
34:51
Um, so for me, um, observing the body without agenda and actually just being where the body is for a start, um, it's actually a crazy how when we're thinking we're, like, living in the past or the future, and we're never right here, right now. So just for a moment to just close your eyes and. And just be where your body is and just observe your body almost like it's a science experiment, or you're an alien from outer space and you don't know what it's like, you don't know what's going on in there, and you just observe. Um, and I've got a little guided meditation on my YouTube channel for that actually just called Filling the Body, so that you can actually just come back to a more pure experience of it without the mind telling you how to experience it. What actually are the physical sensations like right now and just observe them. And so then the dialogue falls away and you can observe your body without the judgement, without the agenda to heal, without any opinions. Even so, you can actually have the pure experience. And then your body thrives with your, your, your full conscious attention on it. And healing is initiated. And it's very it's very soothing. It's very healing can intensify at times because it kind of highlights where you're resisting. Um, so the guided meditation can kind of help you so that you don't go into your reactive mode. Um, but that for me is great. My second tip. And we'll put
U1
36:10
that link in the show notes. If you could send that to me afterwards. And what's your third
U2
36:14
tip? 1s Yeah. And the third tip is to, um, to start to recognize the pain story. Uh, and in that, it's really starting to notice the thoughts that you have about your pain. Um, and not really necessarily do anything with them. You know, for me, I just I noted them down and like, the more I was aware of the dialogue about my pain, um, the less that dialogue was in play. Like, I became more conscious of it because for me, um, suffering is an unconscious process. And if you relate unconsciousness to darkness. So like if you've got a room and it's completely dark, what do you do? You put the light on. And so starting to be more aware of the dialogue and, and what's happening in your body. Like if you suddenly having a really negative thought about your back, what's happened? Where do you feel that in the body, what do you notice? And then you really start to unwrap that pain story and it falls away by itself just in the recognition of it. So yeah, that's my third tip. They're great tips and I can't help, you know, we've come full circle. Actually, my very first episode of this program I ever did was with a lady, um, called Kay, who found immense relief in ascension meditation. Uh, and we talked about it as a pain relief strategy for her, and she talked about how she practiced it. She wasn't a monk, but she was an everyday person who had a hell of a lot of pain. And, um, she found it a really great adjunct to 100 other things that really just help to coexist. And, uh. You know, surrender a little bit better to the experience. So yeah, I feel like
U1
38:01
we're after 20 something episodes. We've done a full circle, which is kind of nice. Hey, thanks, Mira, for your time today. I really appreciate your tips. Can you know, you mentioned you've wrote some books. Would you like can you just tell us where listeners, um, could find some of these books of yours if they're interested in your workbook and exploring their own pain experience?
U2
38:22
Uh, yeah, sure. They're available on Amazon. Um, so yeah, Peace or Pain is the first book, and then there's a workbook and journal that I've just published actually recently, um, a few weeks ago to go with that. Um, that has a card deck in the back of it, um, printed in the pages. Um, and so it's really bite size and it can help you unpack some of the information that's in the first book, um, which is in a very conversational story, uh, by style, by the way, you know, so it's very relatable because I don't like just cold, hard, dry facts. For me, it's just like bringing it to life so people can relate in their own experience. Um, and then surrender is good for the soul because resistance is the cause of suffering. Um, is another one, and they're all available on Amazon. You can also find them through the links on my website, which is boundless hyphen meditation. Co.Uk. And there you'll find the courses that I teach to help people with, with, you know, to learn meditation to help with pain pain awareness course, for example. Um, and then there's also links from my YouTube channel. Marisha. Uh, where I've got a whole ton of video shorts already, and I'm releasing one each week. So if they subscribe, then they can be notified. And then the guided meditations are on there too. So, you know, you can start to actually, uh, explore what I'm talking about for your own direct experience, because that's when you know what's true and what's possible.
U1
39:43
Mhm. That's great I think. It's been great chatting to you and I just you know it blows my mind how much is out there for back pain sufferers which they possibly aren't aware. And I think having access to people like you online is just phenomenal. Now you know the traditional mode of thinking we have to see a physio or an osteo or I'm not saying we can't, but I think we can add layers that may help us shift a little bit faster if we're really stuck. It's just nice to know there's so many people with so many ideas, so many concepts, so many free resources that hopefully it just inspires and gives people a bit of hope that that darkness can have a bit of a light shone on from time to time by listening. So I really, really appreciate your time and thanks for being a guest.
U2
40:35
Ah. Thanks, Baron. It's wonderful to be here. And you know, and if I could just help one person, one more person. Recognize that there's another way, then. Yeah, that that's that's very fulfilling for me. So thank you for having me.
U1
40:47
Yeah. My pleasure.
