Nicole Zimmerer:
0:17 Welcome to Break A Leg! A podcast that explores the relationship between disability and the arts. I'm your host, Nicole Zimmerer, and on today's episode our guest is Sydney Mayer. Sydney Mayer is a writer and dramaturg currently based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. She holds a BFA in Drama and a minor in Literature and Culture from Carnegie Mellon University, where she is currently pursuing her Master's degree in professional writing. Hi, Sydney, welcome to the show.
Sydney Mayer:
0:45 Hi, Nicole, thank you for having me. I've been super excited about doing this.
Nicole Zimmerer:
0:49 I'm super excited that you are doing this. It's gonna be a good episode.
Sydney Mayer:
0:53 Yes!
Nicole Zimmerer:
0:54 Okay, so our first segment is called Spilling the Disabili-Tea where we look at historical or current events, or share some interesting facts relating to the disabled community. And today's fun facts is really, really nerdy, we're going to be looking at etymology of terms used to describe the disabled community.
Sydney Mayer:
1:14 Very exciting. I love etymology, I love getting nerdy.
Nicole Zimmerer:
1:18 So the word handicap was first used to describe the mentally and physically disabled in the early 20th century, I believe, when the new fields of sociology and social work started to look at people in terms of their place in society as a whole. The term was borrowed from horse racing, when a faster, stronger, more superior horse was given a handicap, quote-unquote "handicap," such as a weight or a longer distance, or a later start to equalize the chances of the competitors. Which is very interesting. I did not know that at all.
Sydney Mayer:
2:03 That is really interesting.
Nicole Zimmerer:
2:05 Oh, it says, "if life was a horse race, a person with a physical disability couldn't compete as well, because of the burden they had been handed, not because they were defective by nature," which is very interesting, when you think about the social model of disability, and not the medical model of disability. Oh, that's interesting. Um, so handicap was the big word up until the birth of the disability rights movement. The leaders of the disability rights movement rejected the term "handicap" in favor of disabled, and it replaced other terms that have have emaculated with all the other terrible connotations.
Sydney Mayer:
2:50 It's really interesting how the language we use to describe ourselves evolves over time going from "handicapped" to "disabled."
Nicole Zimmerer:
2:57 Right.
Sydney Mayer:
2:57 And now conversations about using other words like "differently-abled." I remember, Nicole, you and I met in the disability representation class, and we spent about a week speaking with the teacher trying to figure out a common language for the whole group to use, which I think we never really got a clean answer to.
Nicole Zimmerer:
3:14 Well, it's really interesting because a lot of disability activists, say things like "just use the term disabled, it's not, it's not a bad word, just say it." It's like, I personally believe just use the term disabled, like call a spade a spade, you know what I mean? When people say, like, "handicapped" or "differently-abled," or my very, very favorite one "special needs," I just feel like I'm being talked down to as a person. And that doesn't make me feel good. So it's really interesting when you, when you think about, like, the disabled community reclaiming that word.
Sydney Mayer:
3:57 Absolutely. And I think there's so much about our disabilities to reclaim in many ways, some of them can be super powers and things that really bolster your identity. So I don't know avoiding those negative connotations and giving the ownership back to a group who's taking control over that word again is important.
Nicole Zimmerer:
4:13 Yeah. And I also feel like we're also reclaiming the word "cripple." I mean, I know some people in our communities are like, "I don't like that word," and I'm like "cool," um, it's all about personal preference, and I think every disabled person is different, disability is not a monolith, we e have different identities.
Sydney Mayer:
4:35 Sure. I mean, it's like the word "queer" in the queer community, that there's flexibility in who is comfortable claiming that language.
Nicole Zimmerer:
4:42 Yeah, for sure, for sure. So, dear listeners, if you run into a disabled person in the street, which you will definitely, definitely do, we are out there and we do exist... obviously. We're here right now talking to you. Just ask what their preference is, if you get to that point of the conversation, it's like asking somebody's name or somebody's pronouns.
Sydney Mayer:
5:11 That's true.
Nicole Zimmerer:
5:12 I know there's a lot of language surrounding disability and I know that it is confusing to non-disabled people, but I just want to tell you we're pretty open, once we get to know you. Like, don't come up to a disabled person and be like, "So what happened to you?" cause, uh, that's not cool. But you know, if you're having, if you're having a conversation with somebody, and the topic of disability comes up, just follow their lead, is the best advice that I can give you and guidance that I can give you. And if you have any questions, I'm sure if you ask politely, I'm sure the person you're talking with would be happy to tell you the words they're comfortable using and how to have a respectful conversation between two human beings, is what we all want in this world. So, that's all I have to say on that. Sydney, do you have anything else?
Sydney Mayer:
6:19 No, I just think it's important to talk about it, demystify it, and allow those in marginalized groups to select the language that we use to talk about it.
Nicole Zimmerer:
6:28 For sure. Excellent. Excellent. Yep. So, Sydney, tell the people who you are, tell us what your deal is, tell us what your damage is. Let's really dig in.
Sydney Mayer:
6:38 Ooh what's my damage? That's a good question. All right. Well, I typically identify as like my primary disability being ADHD, because I believe most of the comorbidities and other things I deal with mostly stem from that. But I also have some hearing loss and auditory processing disorders.
Nicole Zimmerer:
6:54 That's fun.
Sydney Mayer:
6:56 It's not that fun, but sometimes it's cool, but it always means I have the captions on my TV.
Nicole Zimmerer:
7:00 I love captions. I don't know why people bitch about them all the time. I think they're great.
Sydney Mayer:
7:05 They are great, but sometimes people can be a lot more responsible about how they're actually placing their captions. I was watching New Girl last night and whenever they've got like the introductory of like, "Created by...", "Executive Producer who...", the captions all go above their faces so you can no longer see the faces of the actors who are speaking.
Nicole Zimmerer:
7:21 Yeah.
Sydney Mayer:
7:21 So good intention, poor execution, but...
Nicole Zimmerer:
7:24 Which is you know, par for the course...
Sydney Mayer:
7:26 Oftentimes the case.
Nicole Zimmerer:
7:27 Yeah, I like, that is the one point that is the one stick in my craw about captions is sometimes I'm like, "I just want to see the emotions of the actors, because that's why we're here!" But, you know who has really good captions? Disney+. Disney+... A+ captions.
Sydney Mayer:
7:46 Excellent. You know who has the worst captions? YouTube.
Nicole Zimmerer:
7:49 You--Oh, god, god awful captions on YouTube.
Sydney Mayer:
7:53 But yeah, that's that's generally my damage, and given that personal experience, I've really been interested in doing more disability studies work at the undergraduate and graduate level, so I've also dived in more as a scholar as well.
Nicole Zimmerer:
8:05 Cool, cool. Um, you said, you mentioned something about rhetoric. Can you talk about rhetoric and what it is, and then we'll get into like the rhetoric of disability that we see in our society today.
Sydney Mayer:
8:18 Absolutely. I think we're just talking about my interest in discussing rhetoric and representation in Arts and Media of disability and--
Nicole Zimmerer:
8:26 The words we use.
Sydney Mayer:
8:28 Give me one second to check my notes because Stephanie had the perfect definition of rhetoric that I wanted to use.
Nicole Zimmerer:
8:33 For those of you who don't know, Stephanie R. Larson was our professor at CMU where Sydney and I took her class, I think it was called Disability in Our Society? Was it?
Sydney Mayer:
8:46 It was uh... Disability Representation in Media.
Nicole Zimmerer:
8:50 Was it? I thought it had the word society in it.
Sydney Mayer:
8:53 Maybe we're both wrong, I could check my transcript, but I don't think the audience has time for that.
Nicole Zimmerer:
8:58 No, no, it was something about disability, and believe me when I say it was one of the best classes I've ever taken.
Sydney Mayer:
9:06 Always take a Stephanie class. And I'll definitely, I'll credit Stephanie for a lot of the basis of my knowledge in disability rhetoric, outside of my own personal experience, she's really been a great foundational resource for that. But her definition is really that rhetoric is the art of persuasion or messaging, either viscerally, bodily, or in writing, or verbally. So really just talking about how we're sending messages to one another, directly and indirectly.
Nicole Zimmerer:
9:34 Right, right. So how do you think that affects disability in terms of the arts and society and how we view representation of disability in the media?
Sydney Mayer:
9:46 So one thing about representation in the media is that it oftentimes informs audiences perceptions of what reality is, and sometimes that's their only exposure to people who are different than themselves. So we need to be really responsible with what we're doing with our representation, and as much as we can go into that with many other things, like representations of rape, representations of race, I think one other thing that we can really talk about and be thoughtful with is representations of disability. And so when we're thinking about, you know, just off the top of my head, like, Criminal Minds has a lot of like episode-to-episode arcs with their criminals, and pretty frequently they diagnose their criminals with a certain kind of disability as some kind of justification or villain arc. And so I think when we're reproducing those stories pretty often, then we are reaffirming stereotypes and poor connotations around disability. And so I think it's really important to be thoughtful about how you're representing these things on a mass scale.
Nicole Zimmerer:
10:49 Yeah.
Sydney Mayer:
10:50 I think most of all, it comes down to this idea that you want to like "other" that kind of violent person in a way that disassociates you from having to take responsibility for any similarities or culpability you may have in the past, present, or future, but...
Nicole Zimmerer:
11:03 Yeah, there's a play anthology of disability plays. It's called "[Beyond] Victims and Villians," or "Villains and..." anyway, it's very good, I have on my bookshelf, I'm not going to look for it.
Sydney Mayer:
11:15 Ooh, yet another play to borrow from Nicole.
Nicole Zimmerer:
11:18 Yeah, actually, it's like six plays. It's a huge, thick anthology. It's not a recent anthology, so some of the plays I like, raise my eyes a little bit, I'm like, "Okay, you say you're stopping stereotypes, but there's some in here... but okay! I'm gonna read you anyway." Um, if we look at the disabled figures we have in media, I immediately think of Richard III, for the victim, I mean the villain, he's definitely not a victim. And then I think of Lionel Barrymore in it's a wonderful life. And then for the victims I'm like, Tiny Tim, Laura Wingfield... the list goes on and on, I mean, you just, you just have to think about it and it's right there. So it's just really interesting how words really do have power and really do affect society. And I think, hopefully, people are being more cognizant of that power that they wield. Sydney, do you have any, like, favorite examples of disability representation in rhetoric? And, or do you have any examples of disability and rhetoric that you would like to talk about?
Sydney Mayer:
12:37 Definitely. And as easy of a trap, as it is to fall into, there are also people doing it really well, positively with this rhetoric and representation of disabilities. I think, specifically to Deaf West's revival of Spring Awakening on Broadway, in which they included a lot of deaf actors and sign language was a really key piece of the choreography. I thought that was done really thoughtfully and excellently. So that's not to say it can't be done, because it absolutely can be. And I believe that it fully enriched the art and really added to the story. I definitely liked watching Wendla and kind of two perspectives with both the deaf and hearing actor, it really allowed me to see more sides of her character. So I think there's there's lots of benefit in doing productive disability representation.
Nicole Zimmerer:
13:22 Yeah.
Sydney Mayer:
13:23 So referring back to Stephanie Larson, again, I took another course with her called The Rhetoric of the Body, in which we really spoke about messaging viscerally through bodies. And we talked a lot about photos of those who were disabled, or those who are experiencing violence, as a method of persuasion and talking about how that is ultimately, just an objectification.
Nicole Zimmerer:
13:46 Yeah. Yeah. Sydney, can you talk more about what you mean, when you say persuasion?
Sydney Mayer:
13:53 Sure, I mean, the visual or verbal messaging to audiences to get them to agree with whatever you are putting forth, whatever is on your side. And this could be used in a political means or even just like memes, or doctoring photos, or things like that. But it can be used on a much deeper level with higher stakes. I'm thinking about some photographs of a man in India who self-immolated and was doing so as a protest. But ultimately, the photos were used as kind of a political stunt for others to get people on a separate side. And I'm thinking about how photographs of people with disabilities have been used kind of for a similar thing, where rather than actually allowing people to speak for themselves and advocate for what they believe, they're actually co-opted and used as images and objects to support other agendas.
Nicole Zimmerer:
14:43 Yeah, and more often than that, Inspo-Porn.
Sydney Mayer:
14:48 That's very true. And that's a whole other thing to talk about, especially in terms of representation in media. I don't know, any arc that oversimplifies that victim or villain complex or anyone who is... or the "overcoming" idea, that the only way to finish the arc of disability is to overcome it or be good despite of it. And I think none of those are really true for the actual experiences of people with disabilities, who are just like everybody else. We are dimensional people with ups and downs, and we're good and bad and can't be boiled down into one small representation on the screen.
Nicole Zimmerer:
15:25 Yeah, yeah.
Sydney Mayer:
15:26 But especially when you have such few representations, or at least few thoughtful representations, those that you do have become even more powerful and important.
Nicole Zimmerer:
15:34 Yes. So we have to be very cognizant of when we do get representation, we have to be very um, we have to look at it with a critical eye.
Sydney Mayer:
15:47 Absolutely. There's an opportunity for representation in media to be used positively as well, it's not just like a pitfall that we can fall into, it's also something that we can use to introduce or open up conversations about other topics. Like, in real life sometimes it can be difficult to identify those with invisible disabilities, or really think about invisible disabilities versus physical disabilities. But I think that's something that can be done in media and have that conversation in a really different way.
Nicole Zimmerer:
16:14 Do you have an example of that?
Sydney Mayer:
16:17 Not off the top of my head, let me think of one. Well, I do think a lot about different representations of autism in media, or where it's assumed that a character potentially has autism, and that can be somewhere on the line of blurred between invisible and identifiable disabilities from the outside. And I think the way that, even going back to Criminal Minds, I think there's an assumption that Spencer Reid, potentially has autism and those different representations of that. I'm getting super off track here, but...
Nicole Zimmerer:
16:47 Well, it's really interesting because up until recently when somebody online, said that, "Oh, I think this, this character has autism," I felt very, um, like I felt very wary, I was like, I'd rather it be said point blank. Um, so a lot of people will view Spencer Reid as a character that is coded to be on the spectrum. And I'm really interested to hear your thoughts on how we deal with a character that is quote-unquote "coded," or people perceive as coded to be disabled, but it's never explicitly stated by the creators or the writers as such, and how that affects disability representation as a whole later on.
Sydney Mayer:
17:40 Sure, it's really complicated, it gets dicey pretty much immediately. And we were talking with your wonderful producer Scott before, so I'd love to credit him for some of his ideas as well, that when people see characters on television, who are may not have been intended to be written as one thing or another, they sometimes find things that are similar that they identify with. And they say "that character is like me," or they diagnose a character. When oftentimes, it's probably, the truth of the birth of that character is that a writer saw someone in the real world being very interesting, doing interesting things and wanted to write a character being just as interesting, and weird, and fun, but they may not actually understand the reasons why the real person in the world might be behaving that way, because they might... they might be manic, they might have severe ADHD, they might be on the spectrum, they might have a variety of comorbidities that inform their behavior, that don't, that do not go forward to informing the character on a show. So when you have the audience who believes or diagnosis a character with something that the writers are not necessarily on the same page about, you can get into some really dicey territory about what responsible representation is. Like we've talked earlier in this podcast about, you know, how important it is to have responsible representation, positive representations. But it can be really hard to do so when your audiences, your actors, and your writers aren't necessarily on the same page about what you're representing. So you can have people saying, you know, "Oh, a character with autism would not behave that way," and the writer might say, "But I didn't write this character with autism!" So you can get into some really tricky territory about how you're actually doing that representation. And unfortunately, I don't have a real suggestion or bow to tie that up in, but it's just another reason that it's important that we be mindful about our conversations about disability representation, and actually talk about it instead of using it as some kind of taboo word or buzzword about accessibility to actually really get into the deep end of these conversations and say, yes, it's hard and we're not going to find the answer, and we're not going to tie it up in a bow but it's worth talking about because it's important.
Nicole Zimmerer:
19:44 I completely agree. It gets really wild on Twitter really fast.
Sydney Mayer:
19:49 It really does get wild on Twitter immediately.
Nicole Zimmerer:
19:52 Yep, yep. Um, speaking of the word accessibility, can we talk about the two very different definitions of the word accessibility in terms of the arts and theatre, because at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a lot of talk about, you know, making theatre more accessible, and for me as a disabled person, I was like, "You mean more ramps? You mean, no more stairs? That's awesome!" But the other side of it is, like more accessible in terms of like, cheaper tickets, video recordings of shows, and um... I have a degree in words, and I completely forgot what I was gonna say, I have two degrees and words, and um it just... give me a second.
Sydney Mayer:
20:44 Just the different sides of accessibility, like the practical sides and kind of the more heady, theoretical buzzword-y ones...
Nicole Zimmerer:
20:52 Yeah, the buzzwords that the companies use to be like, "Look at us, we're actually doing the work!" And I'm like, "Are you though? Are you?"
Sydney Mayer:
21:01 No... It's when companies say they care about accessibility, and I believe that they care about accessibility, but they're not really doing anything.
Nicole Zimmerer:
21:08 Yeah.
Sydney Mayer:
21:08 So to say "we care about accessibility" is not really the full picture of doing something about it. And in all fairness, that's, that's also really complicated territory. Like, we can totally get into different reasons why some of those like, especially like distributing theatre, or live media, virtually, obviously that gets into difficult territory.
Nicole Zimmerer:
21:29 Well, we talked in the last podcast with my friend, Alethea, about this quote-unquote "disability revolution" that's coming, and how it's a nice word to say, and it's a nice thought to think, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of work that needs to be done in terms of like, actually getting to the point of complete equity in the arts, when it comes to like, disability and disability representation. And I think both, both definitions of accessibility are very crucial to that, because some disabled people need ramps, and some disabled people need cheaper tickets, because disability is forced poverty, especially in this country... fun fact.
Sydney Mayer:
22:15 Let's talk about health care.
Nicole Zimmerer:
22:17 Hah, let's not...
Sydney Mayer:
22:19 Well that's a different podcast.
Nicole Zimmerer:
22:20 That is a different podcast. And some disabled people want to go to see the theatre, and they can't, because they are, you know, they have limited mobility. But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to enjoy the same things that other people can enjoy. Does that make sense?
Sydney Mayer:
22:41 Yeah, or having like sign language interpreters at other entertainment and media events to make it accessible to even more audiences who... All audiences deserve access to these kinds of arts and stories, and to prohibit some audiences from having it for things that are absolutely preventable or changeable is obscene to me.
Nicole Zimmerer:
22:58 Yeah. I keep thinking back to your comments on the photos of disabled people that are used to persuade the general public about something, or to... that are used to like, be like, "See? Look at this." And I just, I really want to talk about, more in depth, the term Inspo-Porn and what it means and how good intentions from people outside the community are actually harming that community. If you have any thoughts?
Sydney Mayer:
23:37 Absolutely, I think it really comes down to when people in the community's voices are overtaken by those outside of the community, whether or not their intentions are good or bad, but at some point, people believe that they have the right to speak for others, or they can say it better than others. And I think at some point, when whatever marginalized community loses the ability to speak for themselves, you're already going down a pretty bad, a pretty bad path.
Nicole Zimmerer:
23:59 Yeah. Before we get into Inspo-Porn... the definition of Inspo-Porn, um, it is not sexy. We are very turned off by Inspo-Porn.
Sydney Mayer:
24:12 Yeah, it's shorthand for Inspirational Porn, and it's basically the portrayal of people with disabilities as inspirational, based solely because of their disability or because they've overcome it.
Nicole Zimmerer:
24:23 It was coined by the late, great disability activist Stella Young, in I think 2013 is when her TED Talk is? Or when her TED Talk was filmed. And Sydney, do you have any examples of Inspiration Porn for the, for the general public?
Sydney Mayer:
24:44 Sure. I mean, I'm kind of, I'm thinking about when you know, when you scroll through Facebook sometimes you get, you know, video reels that are like, "Oh, look at this small child getting your cochlear implant and hearing their mom say, like, 'I love you' for the first time out loud," and yes, that is what wonderful, and beautiful, and good, but it also overshadows a lot of the other disabilities and difficulties that those with hearing loss or hearing difficulty go through, in that it's really not affordable or accessible to get a cochlear implant. And there's so many other things, not necessarily the exact same type, but generally it's the same idea that people who are overcoming their disabilities or, or I found a video that, like a whole school contributed funds to get one kid a new wheelchair, and that's great and I'm really glad that kid has a new wheelchair. But that really undercuts the systemic problems that people with disabilities face. So I think Inspirational Porn or Inspo-Porn is really a band aid to make able-bodied people feel better, that things are actually going to be okay.
Nicole Zimmerer:
25:45 Yeah. And it also, it objectifies the person with a disability. It doesn't make them human anymore. It just makes them an object in this story that we're telling, in this rhetoric that we're giving.
Sydney Mayer:
25:58 Sure. They're just a vehicle for audience catharsis.
Nicole Zimmerer:
26:01 Yeah. While they are like, they soothe the soul for like, two minutes, maybe the world isn't as horrible as we think it is. Maybe there is hope in this dumpster fire. It also does the thing of where it makes the person with the disability a two-dimensional figure and not the full blown person that they are, with thoughts and feelings, and struggles and joys. And I was talking about this, again with Alethea the last episode, but in this case, the people in the videos are actual real people, and this is just one snapshot of their lives that people think defines their whole existence. And it's just, we are not here to inspire you or to make you feel better about your own personal situations. We are here for the same reason you are, to pay taxes and to die.
Sydney Mayer:
27:00 For utter chaos.
Nicole Zimmerer:
27:01 Utter chaos!
Sydney Mayer:
27:01 None of us asked to be here! And we are not vehicles for the universe's catharsis, so we are certainly not vehicles for the catharsis of our peers.
Nicole Zimmerer:
27:10 Sydney, that was so beautiful. You really showed your degree with words right then.
Sydney Mayer:
27:15 Haha.
Nicole Zimmerer:
27:16 I'm so happy.
Sydney Mayer:
27:17 I do love throwing in the word "catharsis" wherever I can. I like to use catharsis as a verb. This is separate, but I like to use catharsis as a verb and be like, "Oh I'm sorry, I gotta go home and, I gotta cathart really hard later. I've had a really long day," like, "I really need to cathart when I get home!"
Nicole Zimmerer:
27:31 Amazing.
Sydney Mayer:
27:32 "I'm actually, I'm sorry I can't come, I'm actually catharting tonight."
Nicole Zimmerer:
27:34 Haha, okay!
Sydney Mayer:
27:37 Carry on.
Nicole Zimmerer:
27:37 Um, so long story short, Inspirational Porn is not sexy, we are very turned off by it. Everybody should be turned off by it, don't you agree, Sydney?
Sydney Mayer:
27:49 Absolutely. And that's just one type of trope that we fall into in media to be aware of. And I think it's one of those things that's easier to see once you can name.
Nicole Zimmerer:
27:58 I mean, I know that I sometimes fall into an Inspo-Porn hole on Facebook.
Sydney Mayer:
28:05 Absolutely. It does make you feel good for five minutes.
Nicole Zimmerer:
28:07 Yeah, I'm sorry. I said that sentence out loud, mom. Um, but uh, you just... A critical eye is really what's needed for any form of media consumption, really. And I think, I think if we think about it critically, and we think, "Is this really helping, you know, society and and, you know, the people that it says it's helping?" um, or not.
Sydney Mayer:
28:37 That's the thing. You have to be able to hold things at once and say like, some pieces of media are both doing really beautiful things, and you also have to hold on the other hand that some pieces of what they're doing are irresponsible and reckless with representation.
Nicole Zimmerer:
28:51 Yeah, yeah. The other tropes that the disabled community has to deal with a lot specifically for people on the spectrum, they have to deal with the savant trope that is... For a media environment that hates disability representation, the savant is everywhere.
Sydney Mayer:
29:18 That's the thing. It's a useful plot device, but it's not a real representation of people.
Nicole Zimmerer:
29:22 Right, right. I mean, some examples of this trope are Dustin Hoffman in the Rain Man. Sherlock Holmes in, well--
Sydney Mayer:
29:36 All Sherlock Holmes?
Nicole Zimmerer:
29:37 All Sherlock Holmes, but specifically Benedict Cumberbatch in Sherlock Holmes and Freddie Highmore in The Good Doctor, and I think it's interesting that this trope is pervasive in today's media. Also, it's very interesting that another term for this trope is called the idiot savant. And so you're literally calling somebody, you know, an idiot, but you're also calling them a genius at the same time. And I think that dichotomy is very interesting.
Sydney Mayer:
30:09 Sure, you're undercutting them on both sides.
Nicole Zimmerer:
30:11 Yeah, yeah. It's... the words we use are very, it's very telling that we use these words, and we don't think about it, but it, it changes, it changes the way society views certain dynamics within itself.
Sydney Mayer:
30:33 And I think something that's really interesting about that is, because not only does it reflect what people's perceptions are, even those potentially flawed perceptions, but it also informs what people think going forward so the more we call it, the idiot savant syndrome, the more we reinforce some of those really problematic tropes, that both undercut someone's intelligence and also refer to them as an idiot. And so I think those are times where not only is our representation and media important, but also what we termed these tropes, because it's very revealing that the trope is damaging when you term it, "the idiot savant."
Nicole Zimmerer:
31:08 Yeah. And then, you know, a person with well-meaning intentions, and I often think of the word "well-meaning," because most of the time when I have a very weird interaction with a non-disabled person about my disability, they, they're rude, but they don't know they're being rude because they're so well-intentioned, and it's on me to be like, "I know you're trying to be nice, but that's actually like, not cool." Um...
Sydney Mayer:
31:41 That's why you need more creators who actually, like, are disabled writing their own stories as well. I mean--
Nicole Zimmerer:
31:47 Yeah.
Sydney Mayer:
31:47 --that's bviously a whole other onversation we could get into nd talk about for a long time. ut it's important that you also ave writers representing their wn stories and things that hey're informed about. So that eally helps doing it in a esponsible, productive way.
Nicole Zimmerer:
32:00 Yeah. Because the idiot savant trope is so
Sydney Mayer:
32:00 Absolutely. So I think that is one thing that we pervasive, when somebody who has watched these examples of media meets a person on the spectrum, and they don't conform to that trope, they are confused why they're not solving crimes, or being the world's greatest doctor, or the world's greatest have to talk about when we talk about disabilities is that a lot mathematician, when they've only seen this disability in terms of great genius. So people say to themselves, "Oh, he's, or she's on the spectrum, they're socially awkward, they must have a redeeming superpower," and I think that's very harmful. But of them also are our strengths in many ways, but those don't, it's not just the autistic community that's affected by this. Sydney, I, would you mind talking about how this also affects the Deaf Community and the Hard of Hearing Community? those aren't excuses or justifications for the rest of it. And I'm thinking about how that potentially applies in the hard of hearing, or Deaf Community, in that there, there's a lot of media that incorporates them being particularly good at rhythm and sensing beats, and having another kind of musical inclination despite being deaf or hard of hearing. And I think sometimes that's just, that's a personal thing at the time, but...
Nicole Zimmerer:
33:35 Yeah.
Sydney Mayer:
33:36 So I think to ascribe particular qualities, or superpowers, or difficulties to an entire group is really reductive. Because the truth of a lot of disabilities is that we're dealing with a whole cocktail of different things of depression, and ADHD, and anxiety. And a lot of things are manifesting differently in each individual person. So when you have these tropes, I think that contributes to a reductive sense of what certain disabilities are, which contributes to a misdiagnosis in reality and contributes to just misunderstood perceptions.
Nicole Zimmerer:
34:07 I will say we are getting very intellectual this episode and I'm very excited about it. I'm super pumped. Because I'm a nerd.
Sydney Mayer:
34:16 Well, we haven't had a college class together in two years, Nicole. We have to do it together again now!
Nicole Zimmerer:
34:20 I know! You know what this is?
Sydney Mayer:
34:23 What is it?
Nicole Zimmerer:
34:23 A catharsis!
Sydney Mayer:
34:24 It is catharsis.
Nicole Zimmerer:
34:25 It's a catharsis.
Sydney Mayer:
34:26 Next time we gotta have Stephanie on.
Nicole Zimmerer:
34:28 Yeah. Oh, I would love to have Stephanie on! She taught me so much. I love her. But I like, I remember, my friend met a deaf person. And she had never met a deaf person, which I thought was weird, but she was like, "Yeah, and he doesn't have a cochlear implant. I think that's strange. Like, why wouldn't you want to hear?" And I was like, "Well, that's a choice for that particular person." I mean, I mean, I'm thinking about a Reddit post that I saw like, the Am I The Asshole? And it was about this deaf woman, she's the only deaf person in her family, and she's marrying a deaf man who is part of a deaf family. And so they are fully integrated into the community. And she, when she left home, she was fully integrated into the community. And also just as an aside, like the deaf Community seems really awesome, because like you... I mean, I asked my friend, um (different friend), but I asked my friends, "In the realm of disability, why do you think the Deaf has like, has a more intact system," um...
Sydney Mayer:
35:52 Culture.
Nicole Zimmerer:
35:53 "...culture."
Sydney Mayer:
35:53 I think in part it's hereditary is part of it.
Nicole Zimmerer:
35:56 Yes.
Sydney Mayer:
35:57 I know that my grandmother is, was deaf and hard of hearing, and so her daughter became a sign language interpreter, and I obviously have hearing difficulties of my own.
Nicole Zimmerer:
36:05 Yeah.
Sydney Mayer:
36:05 So it's really kind of a family affair. And so it's, I think that's been a huge part of it as well. And speaking of my grandmother, she specifically chose toward the end not to wear her, her hearing aids. And I think, you know, that had to do with some other difficulties that she was dealing with it, but then she could really filter out the sounds that she was, you know, that were coming into her. So it's a perfectly normal and regular choice and to assume that having hearing is preferable as ableist in itself.
Nicole Zimmerer:
36:33 Yes. Also, I think what really solidifies the Deaf culture is like, there's a language, that's universal, basically. And language is a cornerstone of culture, so, you know. This woman who's getting married, I don't know why I'm going on about this story, but she wanted to have the wedding in ASL, but to have a hearing interpreter instead of the other way around, which I thought was fucking awesome.
Sydney Mayer:
37:07 That's cool.
Nicole Zimmerer:
37:08 But the question that she said, like, 'Hey, am I the asshole for doing this?" is because her hearing family got mad. And I was like, "It's your wedding dude," like I'm actually talking to her. I'm not, I do not know this woman at all. But I just, I just find it interesting that non-disabled people have... when a disabled person's choice doesn't fit with the non-disabled person's idea of that disabled person, it confuses them. And I don't know where I was going with this point, but I was going somewhere and I lost it. I apologize.
Scott MacDonald:
37:50 No, yeah. I mean, that's good. It also, it connects to privilege and kind of like, you know, when people experience a lack of privilege for the first time, or on rare occurrences, it feels like to them...
Nicole Zimmerer:
38:04 An attack. Yeah.
Sydney Mayer:
38:05 Oh, sure.
Nicole Zimmerer:
38:06 Yeah. Non-disabled people are used to being the center of attention, or the person that society caters to first. And whenever they're, they're not the person who gets catered to first, it seems like an inconvenience, and like a personal attack when it's really not.
Scott MacDonald:
38:29 And I think that's kind of like exactly what's happening in this example. But it's also like, no, you're not the asshole because you're accommodating... like, what? They're gonna, they're not going to not know what's going on. There's an interpreter.
Nicole Zimmerer:
38:41 Yeah.
Scott MacDonald:
38:42 So, I don't know. I'd be like, "Yeah, have your fucking wedding." If she was like, "And I'm not gonna have an interpreter, it's just gonna be quiet, and all these people are just gonna be sitting there confused," then you're kind of an asshole. Because then you're just, it's not a fun time. Right? Why did they show up, and put on their suit, and drive all the way there, and get you a gift, if you're just gonna make them sit there and they have no idea what's going on?
Sydney Mayer:
39:01 No, it's, at that point it's not offensive, it's inconvenient and annoying. But it's not like--
Scott MacDonald:
39:05 Yeah.
Sydney Mayer:
39:05 It's inconvenient as like a cash bar.
Scott MacDonald:
39:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:
39:08 Yeah.
Scott MacDonald:
39:08 It's like, don't plan a shitty wedding. It just gets down to that.
Sydney Mayer:
39:11 Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:
39:11 Yeah.
Sydney Mayer:
39:12 But it's not like, problematic.
Nicole Zimmerer:
39:14 You know, you know what? Actually, if I was the woman who was fighting with her parents about, you know, having a hearing interpreter, I'd be like, "Fine, the hearing interpreter can go. You can come if you want, but you're not gonna be able to understand anything," because I am petty. But Sydney um, this episode has been all over the place because you and I are two people with ADHD. Can you give us a quick TLDR for this whole interview, please?
Sydney Mayer:
39:46 Yeah, it's important to be aware of these tropes, so we can name them, identify them when they happen, and advocate for more positive representation going forward. And for those out there who are writers and storytellers of their own means, it's just important to be really cognizant and responsible with what you're writing, because as media has such a large and wide impact, you might have an impact beyond things that you've thought about.
Nicole Zimmerer:
40:13 Perfect. Perfect. That was a perfect TLDR.
Sydney Mayer:
40:17 Yeah. Anyway!
Nicole Zimmerer:
40:19 To celebrate the fact that this episode has been recorded like a drunk person walking home, we are going to do a brand new segment called, I Love It / I Hate It, where we talk about something we have a love/hate relationship with in the arts or within our own lives that connects with disability. And today, we are going to be talking about ADHD with Sydney Mayer.
Sydney Mayer:
40:45 And I would say the way to sum up my relationship with my ADHD has been pretty much "love it / hate it" over and on, on and off throughout the years.
Nicole Zimmerer:
40:53 Right. Sydney, let's start with something you love.
Sydney Mayer:
40:57 Well, I really love the ability to hyperfocus. And while that sometimes comes with drawbacks of its own, it's been really useful for me, especially getting through such a rigorous postgraduate program.
Nicole Zimmerer:
41:09 And something you hate.
Sydney Mayer:
41:11 Ooh, executive dysfunction. Sometimes I am just physically unable to do the things that I can do, and know I need to do, like sending an email sometimes is the hardest thing for me to do, even though it takes less than two minutes to actually do it, I'm truly paralyzed and absolutely cannot... um, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:
41:33 It takes me like a whole week and a half to respond to one email, which takes like 30 seconds. It's amazing. It's amazing.
Sydney Mayer:
41:41 I think that's the thing with ADHD is like all of those love it / hate it things are really intertwined, in that, you know, hyperfocusing is a real strength for me and I'm glad that I was able to use it throughout finals. But on the opposite hand, people with ADHD also suffer from time blindness meaning, exactly what it sounds like, that they don't understand the passage of time sometimes when they're hyperfocusing. So I will work all day, and then I will forget to eat, and drink, and pee, and I will not actually have done the executive functions I need to survive. Or these other moments of hyperfocus versus paralysis, where I won't be able to work all day and then suddenly, at
3:00 AM, I'll suddenly have the motivation to do everything on the planet. And then the next day, I will not have slept before I have to go to my work-job that I have not responded to emails for. And so it's, it's all cyclical. But in truth, I really do find that ADHD has been a source of creativity and positivity for me. And honestly, there's something to be said about connecting with other people who have ADHD, because I feel like you function on a similar plane and it's like, magnets connecting. And I think as much as ADHD has provided a lot of struggle in my life, particularly vis-a-vis education and just general growing up, it's also been a real strength for my creative prowess, I think.
Nicole Zimmerer:
42:59 That is a beautiful note to end on. Thank you so much, Sydney.
Sydney Mayer:
43:03 Thank you for having me.
Nicole Zimmerer:
43:05 Sydney before you go, um, is there anything you would like to plug? Anything you'd like to put out in the world?
Sydney Mayer:
43:11 Sure, you can follow my Instagram @sydney.isabelle, you can read my Howlround article about responsible theater making practices more in depth, find that on Google and always happy to connect anywhere you find me.
Nicole Zimmerer:
43:29 Thank you for listening to this episode of Break a Leg! And thank you to our guest, Sydney, for joining s toda Follow us on Instagram and Twitter @breakalegpod, that's break a leg, P-O-D. Let us know what you thought of the episode or tell us who you think we should have on next. For a full transcript of each episode, use the link in the episode description. The easiest way to support this show is by leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts. And make sure to click that Subscribe button! Break A Leg! is produced by Scott MacDonald, and our cover art was created by Sasha and Alexander Schwartz. I'm Nicole Zimmerer and I will see you next time.
