Chris Troka (00:44)
Welcome back to another episode. With us today is the Founder and Chief Creative Officer of Wallet Design, Kevin Fenton. Wallet Design is a full service creative agency based in Washington DC with nearly two decades of expertise in crafting meaningful brands across different sectors. Kevin, so excited to have you on. How you doing today?
Kevin Fenton (01:00)
Doing great, thank you for having me on.
Chris Troka (01:02)
Absolutely. So excited to get more into your journey. Tell us more about what you're doing before that kind of led you into what you're doing now.
Kevin Fenton (01:08)
gosh. Well, right before I jumped off and started my own business, I worked for a series of creative agencies that, you know, based here in DC and then previously before that out in LA, before that I was at the Abercrombie and Fitch home office in Columbus, Ohio. And then before that I was a media planner. So I've had a really kind of weird ping pong trajectory that brought me to where I am.
where I am today.
Chris Troka (01:34)
That's super cool, but a lot of different experience that kind of prepares you for everything you're doing now. So tell me more about Wallet Design and what you focus on. So it's a creative agency. Is this just logos and some content, or does this kind of go into more technical stuff like strategy and kind of the all-encompassing service?
Kevin Fenton (01:51)
It's really all encompassing. We do a lot of brand strategy and media planning work that really serves as the cornerstone foundation for all of the creative work that we can do. The perfect world scenario is obviously that we get to drive strategy, drive creative, and then drive the execution on a project. But it doesn't always work in such an all encompassing way.
We're trained up on being able to hop into an existing brand, internalize and operate within it, but then also able to lay the track work and then jump right in.
Chris Troka (02:23)
that's awesome. So you're actually able to go in if they've either started a process or have this vision already. You can hop in there wherever they're at in the process and be able to see it through to the end.
Kevin Fenton (02:33)
Yeah, totally. we just recently completed a project for Baccarat Hotels. the Baccarat brand is a deep, deep legacy that goes back to like the 1800s. And so that logo is sacrosanct and completely untouchable. But there's a lot of rich storytelling that gets involved with that brand specifically, but also in the project that we were working on. So it was really a game of
getting into their brand guides, seeing what we can and cannot get away with, trying to push on that a little bit and then create something that was fantastic and well received.
Chris Troka (03:10)
It's always such a unique position to go into an
existing brand and they have these brand guidelines and again like what was that two centuries of you know history that you're trying to replicate and you know how far we can we push this to keep up with either current trends or what you're seeing but still stay true to the brand and that's going to be difficult kind of working in but you get so many different creative projects I'm sure like one project is whether you're doing the same deliverables hey you're working on a logo completely separate based on
Kevin Fenton (03:19)
yeah.
Chris Troka (03:40)
the business or the industry and it's just endless options for you.
Kevin Fenton (03:44)
Yeah, the tools for all the creative projects we work on are all the same. I'm just gonna say thinking outside of the box, but that's such a trite way to put it. It's like thinking differently. We have all the same design tools that all other creatives use, but every single business is trying to tell a very, very different story. Even if you're in the same category or same vertical, you are going to have a different point of view on that industry that you work in.
Chris Troka (03:52)
Ha ha!
Kevin Fenton (04:10)
So a great example is we're working on a project right now for a healthcare system out in Southern California. They started out specifically doing AIDS outreach in the LGBTQ community, but now they've since expanded beyond that. And so they're trying to remain true to the roots of the brand, but still expand on their services and evolve that story.
We're now working on a project where we're taking their existing logo, which is untouchable, studying it, trying to understand quite literally, not figuratively, but the literal proportion relationship that the letter forms have to create the whole mark. And then extract design language out of that and redesign their brand, but keeping that logo in place.
All in the name of trying to level up and tell this more positive aspirational story and create this emotional connection that they have with the work that they do It's hard... I mean, God, when I hear myself explain it, I'm like, Jesus, that sounds insane and not possible. But it's super possible. It's super possible.
Chris Troka (05:11)
I think it's a testament to just your ability to go above and beyond for the client. You're like, okay, what is the end result and how do I best execute this? And despite the obstacles you're gonna face trying to recreate that, it has to be done to get their vision right.
Kevin Fenton (05:25)
Totally, and it's really, one of the big questions I always try to understand, or ask, but in the name of trying to understand what it is a client is really trying to communicate is how do you want people to feel when they fill in the blank, when they're on my website, when they're reading my newsletter. It really does come down to how do you want people to feel when they're engaging with their brand, and sometimes that list of emotions is really long, sometimes it's pretty short.
But if you can dial it down to three to four key emotions, then you can design around that and pull those pieces out in a really creative way.
Chris Troka (06:01)
It is really fascinating the emotional connections between design and just our behaviors as a whole within marketing and business. are there either like tried and true emotional factors that you put in where it's like blue is communication or this typeface represents this or are things kind of changing as people perceive things differently?
Kevin Fenton (06:21)
That's a great question. I'll start with the color one first, because there's a whole color theory around, certain colors make you feel certain. I remember this very, very old commercial from the 90s that was just like a local paint shop that was like, you want your dining room to be painted yellow because your food will taste better. And I was like, what? That is not a thing.
And I mostly believe, I'm sure there are studies out there that support that and they're like, yeah, yeah, it gives you a much better feeling. like yellow is a really happy color and sure, but I'm not a strong, strong believer in, your logo must be this color to convey this emotion. I've worked with a finance company that was rebranding and it was an association that represented a ton of...
financial institutions. So the instinct was to go quite literally into the blue color palette because that blue usually communicates security, trust, and a lot of financial institutions use the color blue to communicate that thing. And I was like, I didn't love that idea because it's just such a shallow insight, only through discovery and only through the research were we able to pull out
Why is security so important in financial institutions? Like we can, hypothesize on that forever, but until you actually hear from banking people who work in jumbo mortgages, who are quite literally scared to handle other people's money, or more importantly, they're afraid that they're going to mess up somebody else's money, that's where that trust comes from or.
That's what you're really trying to communicate. So if you make it blue, does that make it more trustworthy? Not exactly. You need to look at the language you're using to communicate that. You need look at the typeface you're going to use to communicate that. Because if you're reading something, I've always considered the typeface to kind of be the dialect that you're reading it in or the personality that you're reading it in. So I'll use the financial institution example, a serif typeface like a Times New Roman or something that has like that.
little leg to it, that has a lot more, or this is the legacy of like academia attached to that. And so when you read that, it almost feels more important. Like if you're reading a bank statement that's been typeset in Comic Sans, you're not gonna take that bank statement seriously. I wouldn't take that seriously.
Chris Troka (08:37)
I only send my analytics reports to Papaya now, so.
Kevin Fenton (08:40)
God, this is total tangent, like before I became a designer, before I even got into creative, I was a media planner and I worked at an ad agency and I wanted to like show that I was creative too. And I labeled all my binders with Papyrus because of Microsoft word. That's like the most design font you can get. And I was so proud of them taking them around to the creative team and
not knowing at all that that was one of the dumbest things I could have done from the standpoint of a designer. But for people that don't know, and I was definitely someone that didn't know, I was like, no, this is amazing. Yeah. No, no, but it's...
Chris Troka (09:16)
It looks great. Yeah, I didn't mean to detract, but I love that story from it. And I'm glad you knew
what I was talking about.
Kevin Fenton (09:22)
Totally. Well, I kind of like this idea of taking the shittiest typeface, I don't know if I can curse on this, but to take the shittiest typeface and design something beautiful with it. like I'll shit all over a typeface all day, especially one like Comic Sans or something like that, but it's designed for a reason, it's around still for a reason. And I'm convinced that I can find the right...
Chris Troka (09:28)
Yeah, you can.
Kevin Fenton (09:44)
project to evoke that state that specific level of emotion that needs this nonsensical sort of Happy-go-lucky or lucky kind of feel to it that comic sans would totally fit I mean, haven't found that project yet But I like the idea of trying to work with like the shittiest typeface to make something beautiful Yeah Really?
Chris Troka (10:02)
That would be super cool. I would watch a TikTok short on that. Yeah, if you like
redesigned a popular logo and just put it into Comic Sans, like let's do our best to try to make Comic Sans work. That'd be cool.
Kevin Fenton (10:13)
got,
all right, well, now I gotta get a TikTok account.
Chris Troka (10:16)
Yeah right. I'm still behind on the times too so yeah YouTube
shorts can work great too that'll be fine.
Kevin Fenton (10:22)
YouTube shorts, there we go.
I'm trying to think other tools that we can use or other ways that designers will implement that, to, pull out and evoke a specific emotion and digital is another really, really great tool, especially with animation It's always been around, but like, we're seeing it a lot more and more in digital engagement.
that you can do a lot. I hate to use an Apple example because every designer will use an Apple example, but when the HomePod was first introduced, Apple did this really beautiful, just very simple animation on scroll. As you scroll down the page, the thing would just come up, it would come apart, it would open, and you would see all this stuff. And it just felt important. There was like this very cool feeling about it and...
this was like a very significant piece of technology that if you don't have this, then like you, have no business being in tech or whatever. I bought two home pods after seeing that both of them are completely irrelevant. I still use them and I liked them because it feels important, like boy that marketing fully, fully worked on me.
Chris Troka (11:25)
Isn't
it crazy to be on the receiving end and we know what we're being marketed to? And it's like, I know what you're doing, but I accept, I agree to this marketing because you sold me on the copy or the design or just everything that comes together. You're like, this is what I want and you did a great job with it.
Kevin Fenton (11:33)
Yes!
Yes, I use myself as like an idiot consumer all the time with clients because the hardest thing for me to try to dial a client into is like, what is it that you are actually selling? Like, yes, you've got a product, yes, you have a service, but there's something beyond the product and service that you're selling. And the example I use a lot is with myself and which is 100 % true. I'm 45 now and I'm not ready to accept that I'm 45. So
I am like gripping onto youth in a way that some people may find sad. They're like, you gotta let that go. But one of the ways that I am holding onto youth as much as I can is to continue buying Nike Air Force Ones. I have like three pair of white Nike Air Force Ones. For me, for whatever reason, that signals youth, vitality, you're not 45.
You're a cool creative, blah, blah, blah. And none of that is true. Buying that does not make any of that true at all. But I believe it. There's something that Nike has put out there that has signaled to me, hey, this is important for you to have. You will not feel old if you buy these shoes. And I believe it. And I continue to buy. I'm buying what I believe to be youth when they're really just like shoes that fall apart.
faster than they probably should.
Chris Troka (12:59)
And do you totally understand? like, I know that it actually doesn't make me, but it makes me feel this way. And that's what's important. and that is resonating with you. And honestly, I think those shoes are way more popular. It's a status symbol as well, not just the youth, but people, won't go outside unless they got, five hundred dollar Nikes on. And you you better be careful not to step on them or scuff them or accidentally hit a curb with them, because that is quick depreciation.
Kevin Fenton (13:04)
Yes.
Yeah.
Totally. I think the next phase for me will be to get the Louis Vuitton high tops or something. I saw some guy wearing them in a really stupid restaurant and I was like, that's sick. And it was like an older gentleman that was clearly much of the same vein of holding onto youth. But he wore them really well and I was like, that's the next step right there. I have no idea how much they are but I am assuming that I should not be buying them.
Chris Troka (13:31)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kevin Fenton (13:51)
because they're too expensive.
Chris Troka (13:52)
I tried to hold onto youth five years ago and I used to skateboard, right? So I bought some DC and Etne shoes, right? Thinking I got some money now, I should upgrade my shoes. And I realized later, these don't fit me or the style of what I think I am or what I believe. And I was like, what was I holding onto? So I upgraded, but again, those shoes brought that similar feeling where I was like, you know, I want a piece of that. I realized later it wasn't for me and I wanted to shift.
Kevin Fenton (13:56)
nice.
Chris Troka (14:18)
but just those psychological factors that go into a purchase decision and how we work our marketing magic and design magic as well. Great laughing already and the jokes and conversation, but I want to ask more serious business related questions to extract some more knowledge from you, because I think it'll be really helpful for our audience here. Kind of the essence of just failing your way to success and how to be okay with it, what does it look like?
Kevin Fenton (14:31)
Yes.
Chris Troka (14:42)
What can you share with us to help us out?
Kevin Fenton (14:44)
man, I feel like my entire life has just been built on falling on my face like multiple times. What does that look like? It could look like something that's a very, very expensive mistake that you make in business when you're first starting out. I'll use myself as an example. I'm going through this right now. The agency's been around just five years, so we're still relatively young.
I still do my own bookkeeping and I should not be doing my own bookkeeping. in the beginning I was like, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, I'll figure it out. we're not breaking it like millions and millions, it's not how hard can it be.
I went to run a report that I don't even know what it's called. I have no idea what it's called, but I called my accountant and I was like, hey, can you run this report? She's like, yeah, no problem. Just go through and reconcile all your books. I was like, ah, got it. Great. No problem. So I go into QuickBooks. I reconcile everything. 10 minutes later, I give her a call. I was like, finished. She's like, what? She gets on the call with me. She's like, what did you do? Because I know that she's like, you didn't reconcile. I was like, no, I did. All I did in QuickBooks was just categorize and expense.
That's all I've ever done in QuickBooks for five years is categorize expenses. Five years. She's like, have you never reconciled your books? It's like, well, if by reconciled you mean I run a reconciliation report, then no, I haven't. She's like, okay, well, we need to do that now. Blah, blah, blah. And then I explain this whole thing. So all to say, that is a huge mistake. Huge mistake that I had no idea that I was making.
because I am not a bookkeeper. I know I was treating my business finances the way I treat my personal finances and those are very, very, very different. So that's one of many dumb mistakes that I didn't really know that I was making. I know now and I'm glad that I did it because I've now super dialed in and I've actually back reconciled all of these accounts.
because I need to know now exactly what's going on with everything. Like the general thinking was, well, if there's money in the accounts, vendors are paid, bills are paid. what else do we need to know? Turns out there's a lot more that you really need to know and a bookkeeper knows that shit. yeah.
Chris Troka (16:37)
Right.
It is
so important, absolutely. Yeah, many of us struggle with that. Please tell us more, because we're all making those mistakes right now.
Kevin Fenton (16:50)
Well, mean, the biggest thing was, you got to forgive that mistake. I personally have to forgive myself in that because one of the reasons why I broke it on my own is I thought I can do this better. I know how to make creative better So 100 % of this is on me. So when we succeed, I'm succeeding. But when we fail...
I'm fucking failing and it burns when that happens. just small bookkeeping mistake is a big one, but you there are others, smaller ones where it becomes a little bit more forgivable. You're like, okay, well, you know, we got a course correct after that. Large ones, you know, pricing a client incorrectly and having to backpedal in each shit and be like, I'm sorry.
I have no resolution for that one because it changes client by client. But the whole point there is...
When you fail and you will fail and you may do it multiple times, all you have to remember is it's, and then God, this is again, I wish I had a better language to say this because it sounds in my mind. I like prejudiced as being overly sappy, but it's all you're really doing is just, you're just learning. You're learning the hard way, but you are learning it. So the bookkeeping perfect example. I could have in the beginning, picked up a book, watch some tutorials.
what does a small business need to know about bookkeeping? I'm not doing that. I don't need to do that. I'll figure it out. okay, well my version of figuring it out is making a colossal mistake and then forgiving the mistake and then figuring it out from there.
Chris Troka (18:20)
But there's so much you can learn through that experience and taking that action. Whereas if you had sat down and really dive deep into it, honestly, I feel like it may have overcomplicated things and it could have discouraged you from even wanting to start in the first place. So it's like, if you're a hands-on learner, just get in there and get dirty, you know?
Kevin Fenton (18:36)
That's
totally, well, you hit it right off the head. For me personally, I am a hands-on learner. You can't tell me not to touch the stove because it's hot. I'm gonna be like, ⁓ is it? and then you're like, shit, it is. So, but I feel like my entire life has been all of these like, I think I'm gonna try this and I know how to do this. And then, no, you don't know what you're doing and you either.
stay in that lane and figure out another way, or you just switch lanes. that was honestly part of the reason why I switched into the creative track. so in college and everything, I knew that I had this creativeness, but I didn't understand. didn't know what to do with it. So I thought, all right, I did my undergraduate at VCU. And at the time you could go into the business side of advertising or the creative side of advertising. So I said, well, advertising is a creative industry.
But I'm going study the business because it's safer and I don't know what to do with the creativity. So I go through that. I start working as a media planner and media planning is hard. You have to know how to use Excel. You have to do math all the time. Both of those things. I am just they're just not for me. So I had one of the most gracious bosses as a media plan that I'll ever have probably in my entire career. she's like, you can't do math.
I was like, well, I mean, I can do it with a calculator. She was like, all right. but long story short, I ended up becoming friends with the creative team at this particular agency. They started pulling me into creative meetings and, ⁓ they started using my ideas. so the business part of me was like, well, well, wait, you're getting my ideas for free, but you're paying me for media. should be paying me for the ideas.
I'm 23 at the time, so I go into my boss's office, I'm like, hey, they used one of my concepts in a meeting, so, bop-po, you need to pay. And she was like, go fuck right off, you're 23, are you kidding? And I was like, oh, I didn't know. Huge mistake, should not have gone into my boss's office and been like, oh, you need to pay me. Like, nope, that's not how that works.
Chris Troka (20:27)
Did that inspire you to start your own business then to branch off or was it a bit later?
Kevin Fenton (20:31)
It was much, much later. after that, I went and talked to the creative director. I was like, Hey, I think I'm going to do this. He's like, yeah, you have the right kind of weird. You could totally do this. So I was like, I'll just move my desk back until I get a Mac now. And he's like, no, no, no, no. You need to go back to school. you need to prove that you have talent. you need to refine all of this. And I was like, shit. what does that mean? And so he gave me the name of some of the portfolio schools, like portfolio center, creative circus.
VCU Brand Center. I applied to all three, got into all three, but chose Portfolio Center down in Atlanta. Moved down, did two years there, and then that just changed the trajectory of everything. Yeah.
Chris Troka (20:59)
Congratulations.
Yes.
But I feel like had you not had that early on experience and realized, you know, I think the creative side is going to be a bit more long term, a better fit for you. if the math and just the spreadsheets don't appeal to you. Yeah, that is going to be a long, long journey working for someone else or even trying to do that freelance. But it sounds like you found that mesh between your creative side. People are willing to
pay you for it, you're great at it, people love the work, and it's built something bigger than just where you were at when you were 23. Kevin, now where can people find out more about you and get connected with you online?
Kevin Fenton (21:45)
Uh, best place is LinkedIn. I'm like the most active on LinkedIn just by either searching Wallet Design or Kevin Fenton. I have an Instagram account for Wallet Design, but it is updated three times a year if we're lucky. I coach a lot of clients on social media and what to do, but I do not follow any of that advice.
Chris Troka (22:03)
It's the cobbler where no shoes for the kids. Absolutely. We'll have those links available down in the description, the show notes for everybody so you can get connected, preferably on LinkedIn Kevin, we want to open the floor for you. Anything we haven't discussed yet that you just want to share, a piece of advice maybe you would share with you're younger self or other business owners who might just be starting.
Kevin Fenton (22:05)
Yes, totally. That's it.
God, I would say, just do it anyway, whatever it is, just do it anyway. There's a quote that said something to the effect of like, I'm too scared to start this thing or I'm too scared to do it. Well, then do it scared, but by not do it like, you know, what will happen if you don't do it, you will be doing the same thing every day. So just go. I really wish I had started out.
Chris Troka (22:27)
Just do it anyways.
Kevin Fenton (22:45)
freelancing and starting my own business a lot earlier than I did. Rather than try to fit into and assimilate to all of these other places that I just wasn't able to do it. So yeah, do it anyway. Just do one or two things that bring that vision a little bit closer to real life and just do it anyway.
Chris Troka (23:00)
I love that.
It's important the action piece, just getting out there. If we get in our heads too much, that mindset piece, we're going to talk ourselves out of a lot of things and just delay and procrastinate. And I think at the end of the day, we're going be happier with failing and having tried it versus not trying at all. And I think that's really important. Kevin, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your advice and wisdom with us.
Kevin Fenton (23:19)
It's your day.
Yeah, happy to do it and thanks for having me.
Chris Troka (23:25)
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Kevin. We appreciate it. And make sure you check out the show notes description to find out more special offers and the links to Kevin as well. Thank you so much.
Kevin Fenton (23:35)
Yep
Welcome back to another episode. With us today is the Founder and Chief Creative Officer of Wallet Design, Kevin Fenton. Wallet Design is a full service creative agency based in Washington DC with nearly two decades of expertise in crafting meaningful brands across different sectors. Kevin, so excited to have you on. How you doing today?
Kevin Fenton (01:00)
Doing great, thank you for having me on.
Chris Troka (01:02)
Absolutely. So excited to get more into your journey. Tell us more about what you're doing before that kind of led you into what you're doing now.
Kevin Fenton (01:08)
gosh. Well, right before I jumped off and started my own business, I worked for a series of creative agencies that, you know, based here in DC and then previously before that out in LA, before that I was at the Abercrombie and Fitch home office in Columbus, Ohio. And then before that I was a media planner. So I've had a really kind of weird ping pong trajectory that brought me to where I am.
where I am today.
Chris Troka (01:34)
That's super cool, but a lot of different experience that kind of prepares you for everything you're doing now. So tell me more about Wallet Design and what you focus on. So it's a creative agency. Is this just logos and some content, or does this kind of go into more technical stuff like strategy and kind of the all-encompassing service?
Kevin Fenton (01:51)
It's really all encompassing. We do a lot of brand strategy and media planning work that really serves as the cornerstone foundation for all of the creative work that we can do. The perfect world scenario is obviously that we get to drive strategy, drive creative, and then drive the execution on a project. But it doesn't always work in such an all encompassing way.
We're trained up on being able to hop into an existing brand, internalize and operate within it, but then also able to lay the track work and then jump right in.
Chris Troka (02:23)
that's awesome. So you're actually able to go in if they've either started a process or have this vision already. You can hop in there wherever they're at in the process and be able to see it through to the end.
Kevin Fenton (02:33)
Yeah, totally. we just recently completed a project for Baccarat Hotels. the Baccarat brand is a deep, deep legacy that goes back to like the 1800s. And so that logo is sacrosanct and completely untouchable. But there's a lot of rich storytelling that gets involved with that brand specifically, but also in the project that we were working on. So it was really a game of
getting into their brand guides, seeing what we can and cannot get away with, trying to push on that a little bit and then create something that was fantastic and well received.
Chris Troka (03:10)
It's always such a unique position to go into an
existing brand and they have these brand guidelines and again like what was that two centuries of you know history that you're trying to replicate and you know how far we can we push this to keep up with either current trends or what you're seeing but still stay true to the brand and that's going to be difficult kind of working in but you get so many different creative projects I'm sure like one project is whether you're doing the same deliverables hey you're working on a logo completely separate based on
Kevin Fenton (03:19)
yeah.
Chris Troka (03:40)
the business or the industry and it's just endless options for you.
Kevin Fenton (03:44)
Yeah, the tools for all the creative projects we work on are all the same. I'm just gonna say thinking outside of the box, but that's such a trite way to put it. It's like thinking differently. We have all the same design tools that all other creatives use, but every single business is trying to tell a very, very different story. Even if you're in the same category or same vertical, you are going to have a different point of view on that industry that you work in.
Chris Troka (03:52)
Ha ha!
Kevin Fenton (04:10)
So a great example is we're working on a project right now for a healthcare system out in Southern California. They started out specifically doing AIDS outreach in the LGBTQ community, but now they've since expanded beyond that. And so they're trying to remain true to the roots of the brand, but still expand on their services and evolve that story.
We're now working on a project where we're taking their existing logo, which is untouchable, studying it, trying to understand quite literally, not figuratively, but the literal proportion relationship that the letter forms have to create the whole mark. And then extract design language out of that and redesign their brand, but keeping that logo in place.
All in the name of trying to level up and tell this more positive aspirational story and create this emotional connection that they have with the work that they do It's hard... I mean, God, when I hear myself explain it, I'm like, Jesus, that sounds insane and not possible. But it's super possible. It's super possible.
Chris Troka (05:11)
I think it's a testament to just your ability to go above and beyond for the client. You're like, okay, what is the end result and how do I best execute this? And despite the obstacles you're gonna face trying to recreate that, it has to be done to get their vision right.
Kevin Fenton (05:25)
Totally, and it's really, one of the big questions I always try to understand, or ask, but in the name of trying to understand what it is a client is really trying to communicate is how do you want people to feel when they fill in the blank, when they're on my website, when they're reading my newsletter. It really does come down to how do you want people to feel when they're engaging with their brand, and sometimes that list of emotions is really long, sometimes it's pretty short.
But if you can dial it down to three to four key emotions, then you can design around that and pull those pieces out in a really creative way.
Chris Troka (06:01)
It is really fascinating the emotional connections between design and just our behaviors as a whole within marketing and business. are there either like tried and true emotional factors that you put in where it's like blue is communication or this typeface represents this or are things kind of changing as people perceive things differently?
Kevin Fenton (06:21)
That's a great question. I'll start with the color one first, because there's a whole color theory around, certain colors make you feel certain. I remember this very, very old commercial from the 90s that was just like a local paint shop that was like, you want your dining room to be painted yellow because your food will taste better. And I was like, what? That is not a thing.
And I mostly believe, I'm sure there are studies out there that support that and they're like, yeah, yeah, it gives you a much better feeling. like yellow is a really happy color and sure, but I'm not a strong, strong believer in, your logo must be this color to convey this emotion. I've worked with a finance company that was rebranding and it was an association that represented a ton of...
financial institutions. So the instinct was to go quite literally into the blue color palette because that blue usually communicates security, trust, and a lot of financial institutions use the color blue to communicate that thing. And I was like, I didn't love that idea because it's just such a shallow insight, only through discovery and only through the research were we able to pull out
Why is security so important in financial institutions? Like we can, hypothesize on that forever, but until you actually hear from banking people who work in jumbo mortgages, who are quite literally scared to handle other people's money, or more importantly, they're afraid that they're going to mess up somebody else's money, that's where that trust comes from or.
That's what you're really trying to communicate. So if you make it blue, does that make it more trustworthy? Not exactly. You need to look at the language you're using to communicate that. You need look at the typeface you're going to use to communicate that. Because if you're reading something, I've always considered the typeface to kind of be the dialect that you're reading it in or the personality that you're reading it in. So I'll use the financial institution example, a serif typeface like a Times New Roman or something that has like that.
little leg to it, that has a lot more, or this is the legacy of like academia attached to that. And so when you read that, it almost feels more important. Like if you're reading a bank statement that's been typeset in Comic Sans, you're not gonna take that bank statement seriously. I wouldn't take that seriously.
Chris Troka (08:37)
I only send my analytics reports to Papaya now, so.
Kevin Fenton (08:40)
God, this is total tangent, like before I became a designer, before I even got into creative, I was a media planner and I worked at an ad agency and I wanted to like show that I was creative too. And I labeled all my binders with Papyrus because of Microsoft word. That's like the most design font you can get. And I was so proud of them taking them around to the creative team and
not knowing at all that that was one of the dumbest things I could have done from the standpoint of a designer. But for people that don't know, and I was definitely someone that didn't know, I was like, no, this is amazing. Yeah. No, no, but it's...
Chris Troka (09:16)
It looks great. Yeah, I didn't mean to detract, but I love that story from it. And I'm glad you knew
what I was talking about.
Kevin Fenton (09:22)
Totally. Well, I kind of like this idea of taking the shittiest typeface, I don't know if I can curse on this, but to take the shittiest typeface and design something beautiful with it. like I'll shit all over a typeface all day, especially one like Comic Sans or something like that, but it's designed for a reason, it's around still for a reason. And I'm convinced that I can find the right...
Chris Troka (09:28)
Yeah, you can.
Kevin Fenton (09:44)
project to evoke that state that specific level of emotion that needs this nonsensical sort of Happy-go-lucky or lucky kind of feel to it that comic sans would totally fit I mean, haven't found that project yet But I like the idea of trying to work with like the shittiest typeface to make something beautiful Yeah Really?
Chris Troka (10:02)
That would be super cool. I would watch a TikTok short on that. Yeah, if you like
redesigned a popular logo and just put it into Comic Sans, like let's do our best to try to make Comic Sans work. That'd be cool.
Kevin Fenton (10:13)
got,
all right, well, now I gotta get a TikTok account.
Chris Troka (10:16)
Yeah right. I'm still behind on the times too so yeah YouTube
shorts can work great too that'll be fine.
Kevin Fenton (10:22)
YouTube shorts, there we go.
I'm trying to think other tools that we can use or other ways that designers will implement that, to, pull out and evoke a specific emotion and digital is another really, really great tool, especially with animation It's always been around, but like, we're seeing it a lot more and more in digital engagement.
that you can do a lot. I hate to use an Apple example because every designer will use an Apple example, but when the HomePod was first introduced, Apple did this really beautiful, just very simple animation on scroll. As you scroll down the page, the thing would just come up, it would come apart, it would open, and you would see all this stuff. And it just felt important. There was like this very cool feeling about it and...
this was like a very significant piece of technology that if you don't have this, then like you, have no business being in tech or whatever. I bought two home pods after seeing that both of them are completely irrelevant. I still use them and I liked them because it feels important, like boy that marketing fully, fully worked on me.
Chris Troka (11:25)
Isn't
it crazy to be on the receiving end and we know what we're being marketed to? And it's like, I know what you're doing, but I accept, I agree to this marketing because you sold me on the copy or the design or just everything that comes together. You're like, this is what I want and you did a great job with it.
Kevin Fenton (11:33)
Yes!
Yes, I use myself as like an idiot consumer all the time with clients because the hardest thing for me to try to dial a client into is like, what is it that you are actually selling? Like, yes, you've got a product, yes, you have a service, but there's something beyond the product and service that you're selling. And the example I use a lot is with myself and which is 100 % true. I'm 45 now and I'm not ready to accept that I'm 45. So
I am like gripping onto youth in a way that some people may find sad. They're like, you gotta let that go. But one of the ways that I am holding onto youth as much as I can is to continue buying Nike Air Force Ones. I have like three pair of white Nike Air Force Ones. For me, for whatever reason, that signals youth, vitality, you're not 45.
You're a cool creative, blah, blah, blah. And none of that is true. Buying that does not make any of that true at all. But I believe it. There's something that Nike has put out there that has signaled to me, hey, this is important for you to have. You will not feel old if you buy these shoes. And I believe it. And I continue to buy. I'm buying what I believe to be youth when they're really just like shoes that fall apart.
faster than they probably should.
Chris Troka (12:59)
And do you totally understand? like, I know that it actually doesn't make me, but it makes me feel this way. And that's what's important. and that is resonating with you. And honestly, I think those shoes are way more popular. It's a status symbol as well, not just the youth, but people, won't go outside unless they got, five hundred dollar Nikes on. And you you better be careful not to step on them or scuff them or accidentally hit a curb with them, because that is quick depreciation.
Kevin Fenton (13:04)
Yes.
Yeah.
Totally. I think the next phase for me will be to get the Louis Vuitton high tops or something. I saw some guy wearing them in a really stupid restaurant and I was like, that's sick. And it was like an older gentleman that was clearly much of the same vein of holding onto youth. But he wore them really well and I was like, that's the next step right there. I have no idea how much they are but I am assuming that I should not be buying them.
Chris Troka (13:31)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kevin Fenton (13:51)
because they're too expensive.
Chris Troka (13:52)
I tried to hold onto youth five years ago and I used to skateboard, right? So I bought some DC and Etne shoes, right? Thinking I got some money now, I should upgrade my shoes. And I realized later, these don't fit me or the style of what I think I am or what I believe. And I was like, what was I holding onto? So I upgraded, but again, those shoes brought that similar feeling where I was like, you know, I want a piece of that. I realized later it wasn't for me and I wanted to shift.
Kevin Fenton (13:56)
nice.
Chris Troka (14:18)
but just those psychological factors that go into a purchase decision and how we work our marketing magic and design magic as well. Great laughing already and the jokes and conversation, but I want to ask more serious business related questions to extract some more knowledge from you, because I think it'll be really helpful for our audience here. Kind of the essence of just failing your way to success and how to be okay with it, what does it look like?
Kevin Fenton (14:31)
Yes.
Chris Troka (14:42)
What can you share with us to help us out?
Kevin Fenton (14:44)
man, I feel like my entire life has just been built on falling on my face like multiple times. What does that look like? It could look like something that's a very, very expensive mistake that you make in business when you're first starting out. I'll use myself as an example. I'm going through this right now. The agency's been around just five years, so we're still relatively young.
I still do my own bookkeeping and I should not be doing my own bookkeeping. in the beginning I was like, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, I'll figure it out. we're not breaking it like millions and millions, it's not how hard can it be.
I went to run a report that I don't even know what it's called. I have no idea what it's called, but I called my accountant and I was like, hey, can you run this report? She's like, yeah, no problem. Just go through and reconcile all your books. I was like, ah, got it. Great. No problem. So I go into QuickBooks. I reconcile everything. 10 minutes later, I give her a call. I was like, finished. She's like, what? She gets on the call with me. She's like, what did you do? Because I know that she's like, you didn't reconcile. I was like, no, I did. All I did in QuickBooks was just categorize and expense.
That's all I've ever done in QuickBooks for five years is categorize expenses. Five years. She's like, have you never reconciled your books? It's like, well, if by reconciled you mean I run a reconciliation report, then no, I haven't. She's like, okay, well, we need to do that now. Blah, blah, blah. And then I explain this whole thing. So all to say, that is a huge mistake. Huge mistake that I had no idea that I was making.
because I am not a bookkeeper. I know I was treating my business finances the way I treat my personal finances and those are very, very, very different. So that's one of many dumb mistakes that I didn't really know that I was making. I know now and I'm glad that I did it because I've now super dialed in and I've actually back reconciled all of these accounts.
because I need to know now exactly what's going on with everything. Like the general thinking was, well, if there's money in the accounts, vendors are paid, bills are paid. what else do we need to know? Turns out there's a lot more that you really need to know and a bookkeeper knows that shit. yeah.
Chris Troka (16:37)
Right.
It is
so important, absolutely. Yeah, many of us struggle with that. Please tell us more, because we're all making those mistakes right now.
Kevin Fenton (16:50)
Well, mean, the biggest thing was, you got to forgive that mistake. I personally have to forgive myself in that because one of the reasons why I broke it on my own is I thought I can do this better. I know how to make creative better So 100 % of this is on me. So when we succeed, I'm succeeding. But when we fail...
I'm fucking failing and it burns when that happens. just small bookkeeping mistake is a big one, but you there are others, smaller ones where it becomes a little bit more forgivable. You're like, okay, well, you know, we got a course correct after that. Large ones, you know, pricing a client incorrectly and having to backpedal in each shit and be like, I'm sorry.
I have no resolution for that one because it changes client by client. But the whole point there is...
When you fail and you will fail and you may do it multiple times, all you have to remember is it's, and then God, this is again, I wish I had a better language to say this because it sounds in my mind. I like prejudiced as being overly sappy, but it's all you're really doing is just, you're just learning. You're learning the hard way, but you are learning it. So the bookkeeping perfect example. I could have in the beginning, picked up a book, watch some tutorials.
what does a small business need to know about bookkeeping? I'm not doing that. I don't need to do that. I'll figure it out. okay, well my version of figuring it out is making a colossal mistake and then forgiving the mistake and then figuring it out from there.
Chris Troka (18:20)
But there's so much you can learn through that experience and taking that action. Whereas if you had sat down and really dive deep into it, honestly, I feel like it may have overcomplicated things and it could have discouraged you from even wanting to start in the first place. So it's like, if you're a hands-on learner, just get in there and get dirty, you know?
Kevin Fenton (18:36)
That's
totally, well, you hit it right off the head. For me personally, I am a hands-on learner. You can't tell me not to touch the stove because it's hot. I'm gonna be like, ⁓ is it? and then you're like, shit, it is. So, but I feel like my entire life has been all of these like, I think I'm gonna try this and I know how to do this. And then, no, you don't know what you're doing and you either.
stay in that lane and figure out another way, or you just switch lanes. that was honestly part of the reason why I switched into the creative track. so in college and everything, I knew that I had this creativeness, but I didn't understand. didn't know what to do with it. So I thought, all right, I did my undergraduate at VCU. And at the time you could go into the business side of advertising or the creative side of advertising. So I said, well, advertising is a creative industry.
But I'm going study the business because it's safer and I don't know what to do with the creativity. So I go through that. I start working as a media planner and media planning is hard. You have to know how to use Excel. You have to do math all the time. Both of those things. I am just they're just not for me. So I had one of the most gracious bosses as a media plan that I'll ever have probably in my entire career. she's like, you can't do math.
I was like, well, I mean, I can do it with a calculator. She was like, all right. but long story short, I ended up becoming friends with the creative team at this particular agency. They started pulling me into creative meetings and, ⁓ they started using my ideas. so the business part of me was like, well, well, wait, you're getting my ideas for free, but you're paying me for media. should be paying me for the ideas.
I'm 23 at the time, so I go into my boss's office, I'm like, hey, they used one of my concepts in a meeting, so, bop-po, you need to pay. And she was like, go fuck right off, you're 23, are you kidding? And I was like, oh, I didn't know. Huge mistake, should not have gone into my boss's office and been like, oh, you need to pay me. Like, nope, that's not how that works.
Chris Troka (20:27)
Did that inspire you to start your own business then to branch off or was it a bit later?
Kevin Fenton (20:31)
It was much, much later. after that, I went and talked to the creative director. I was like, Hey, I think I'm going to do this. He's like, yeah, you have the right kind of weird. You could totally do this. So I was like, I'll just move my desk back until I get a Mac now. And he's like, no, no, no, no. You need to go back to school. you need to prove that you have talent. you need to refine all of this. And I was like, shit. what does that mean? And so he gave me the name of some of the portfolio schools, like portfolio center, creative circus.
VCU Brand Center. I applied to all three, got into all three, but chose Portfolio Center down in Atlanta. Moved down, did two years there, and then that just changed the trajectory of everything. Yeah.
Chris Troka (20:59)
Congratulations.
Yes.
But I feel like had you not had that early on experience and realized, you know, I think the creative side is going to be a bit more long term, a better fit for you. if the math and just the spreadsheets don't appeal to you. Yeah, that is going to be a long, long journey working for someone else or even trying to do that freelance. But it sounds like you found that mesh between your creative side. People are willing to
pay you for it, you're great at it, people love the work, and it's built something bigger than just where you were at when you were 23. Kevin, now where can people find out more about you and get connected with you online?
Kevin Fenton (21:45)
Uh, best place is LinkedIn. I'm like the most active on LinkedIn just by either searching Wallet Design or Kevin Fenton. I have an Instagram account for Wallet Design, but it is updated three times a year if we're lucky. I coach a lot of clients on social media and what to do, but I do not follow any of that advice.
Chris Troka (22:03)
It's the cobbler where no shoes for the kids. Absolutely. We'll have those links available down in the description, the show notes for everybody so you can get connected, preferably on LinkedIn Kevin, we want to open the floor for you. Anything we haven't discussed yet that you just want to share, a piece of advice maybe you would share with you're younger self or other business owners who might just be starting.
Kevin Fenton (22:05)
Yes, totally. That's it.
God, I would say, just do it anyway, whatever it is, just do it anyway. There's a quote that said something to the effect of like, I'm too scared to start this thing or I'm too scared to do it. Well, then do it scared, but by not do it like, you know, what will happen if you don't do it, you will be doing the same thing every day. So just go. I really wish I had started out.
Chris Troka (22:27)
Just do it anyways.
Kevin Fenton (22:45)
freelancing and starting my own business a lot earlier than I did. Rather than try to fit into and assimilate to all of these other places that I just wasn't able to do it. So yeah, do it anyway. Just do one or two things that bring that vision a little bit closer to real life and just do it anyway.
Chris Troka (23:00)
I love that.
It's important the action piece, just getting out there. If we get in our heads too much, that mindset piece, we're going to talk ourselves out of a lot of things and just delay and procrastinate. And I think at the end of the day, we're going be happier with failing and having tried it versus not trying at all. And I think that's really important. Kevin, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your advice and wisdom with us.
Kevin Fenton (23:19)
It's your day.
Yeah, happy to do it and thanks for having me.
Chris Troka (23:25)
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Kevin. We appreciate it. And make sure you check out the show notes description to find out more special offers and the links to Kevin as well. Thank you so much.
Kevin Fenton (23:35)
Yep
