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Welcome to the podcast Beyond Expectations, Parenting Autism.
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Follow Michelle Shabola's journey of raising a child with autism, the challenges, victories, and rewards.
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If you're a parent, caregiver, or simply someone seeking to understand autism on a personal level, you're in the right place.
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All right, here we are with Beyond Expectations.
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And today we have a guest with us from Indianapolis, Indiana, Derek Crager.
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Welcome to our show.
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How are you?
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Hi, Michelle.
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Hi, Sean.
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Hello, everybody.
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Thank you.
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Welcome, Derek.
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We're glad to have you.
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Michelle gave me a little bit of your background.
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I can't wait for you to introduce yourself to everyone who watches the podcast.
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Well, Michelle just introduced me, right?
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Is there more?
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Are we done yet?
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That was it.
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It's been nice having you.
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Now officially the shortest podcast we've had.
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Tell us about yourself.
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Why are you on my show today?
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How's that?
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How's that?
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Well, well, you'll probably be asking yourself that after we get done, uh, Michelle.
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Um, well, uh, you know, autism is is on uh my file now, but uh I'm 58, 59 last week, and uh I was late diagnosed, which that just means uh I was an adult uh when I was diagnosed at age 50.
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And so uh growing up, I was that odd duck.
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I was that uh uh square peg trying to fit in a round hole.
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So I spent my life in the self-help aisle of every library and bookstore.
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And you know, back then we had not only books, but we had uh cassette tapes and VHS tapes and then CDs and DVDs, and I mean you name it, uh it's out there.
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And and since then, you know, now we have podcasts and and audiobooks and all kinds of cool stuff.
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But uh I I looking back, I I learned in my life that uh if if humans have the right information at the right time, they can make the right decision.
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But my brain doesn't always connect at the same level that that to pick up the uh that social context.
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So um the first 40, 50 years of my life were trying to fit in, trying to adapt myself.
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And then at age 50, um I uh was diagnosed and I I cried for about two weeks.
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Oh, I mean, literally, uh good tears, happy tears, you know, regretful tears.
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Well, why couldn't I find this out earlier?
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Because uh us humans like to be categorized.
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It's not so much we want to be different, we want to stand out, but we don't want to stand out, but we want to be categorized, but we don't want anybody to put us in a category or pigeonhole us and and uh you know that uh that type of uh thought train.
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But what it does when we are category, when we are categorized, it's it's just like going to a uh a physical medical doctor.
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If you have a cold and it's diagnosed, well then you can treat it.
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And um to be diagnosed as autistic, ADHD, and dyslexic at age 50, it allowed me to one, forgive myself uh for a lot of my you know youthful uh exuberance and and lack of traction and all those other uh euphemisms that we throw around uh trying to deflect responsibility and and hurt and emotion.
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So uh um once I embraced my uh my difference, this uh neurodiversity we call it now, um I uh I seem to excel and it's uh my life has really changed and that is fascinating.
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Michelle, had had you heard of a diagnosis being this late before?
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I don't think so, but I know uh certain people or people that were like had a lot of more sensory things, they'd be like, how come this bothers me, that bothers me?
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And they would go ahead and research about it and say, Well, you know what?
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Maybe this is what I've got going on, but a full-blown diagnosis, not this late.
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I I can't imagine what he went through as a probably as a child.
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I mean, no thing.
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I mean, how was it?
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It had to be difficult.
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I mean, this was John, this is when you and I were in school.
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Right?
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So yeah, this is this is the vintage of people who um you know it came behind or came before the prevalence of the diagnosis.
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What's the usual what's the usual response here, kids, when uh when you ask that question?
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I had the greatest life ever.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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Well, some, yes, and well, right, some maybe not so much.
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You know, it's uh I tell you what, I I don't pity myself.
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I um I think that um just because we're diagnosed, we're categorized with this, uh, even today, children that are diagnosed autistic, ADHD, I really don't think they should be babied.
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Um I think I benefited from not being cradled, uh protected.
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Um I was exposed to some hard truths, that's for sure.
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Um and now that I'm on this side of the diagnosis, I'm able to connect all the dots.
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I've been keeping track of these dots for quite some time.
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Now I'm really able to connect all the dots.
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And I uh I thank both of you for having shows like this to um allow people to share their stories and uh inquire, because if if we just help one person, you know, I mean that's that's it.
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That's what we measure success by.
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If we can just help one person and we can help them by uh you know sharing our experience because it's a lot tougher and it takes a lot longer to learn going walking your own path than it does to you know hear stories from others and say, oh, you know what?
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I'd do that same thing.
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What did they do?
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Oh, I'm gonna try that.
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Right, and it's uh it's fantastic.
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Maybe I guess what's going through my mind is do you have a specific example of like I'm I'm I'm fascinated by this before and after moment.
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Like, so you know, you're a completely grown man, you're successful, like life life is not terrible, right?
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And then you get a diagnosis.
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How did it change?
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What did it change and what factors manifest themselves into something like a diagnosis?
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The decade before, so in my 40s, I started picking up hints and and seeing patterns.
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And so I started hanging around groups online and saying, you know, hey, um, asking myself these questions.
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Uh, you know, what what am I doing?
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Uh let me do this research.
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And that's the cool part.
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Uh, online came around with this internet thing, and and we were able to connect to uh databases and other people, different communities.
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And I love the fact that uh many of these communities, you don't have to show your card and say, hey, I'm a card carrying, you know, ADHD or uh autistic.
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It's just you know, come on in.
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And so I was a fly on the wall.
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I listened.
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I um I it took me probably two or three years before I'd throw a comment out, maybe once a month, and say, Hey, I I did this too, or or did you ever do this?
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Or that's what that means.
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You know, just simple stuff.
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And it it was a slow ramp up until my diagnosis.
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So uh what was key for me, uh, Sean, Michelle, is that uh I was working at Amazon, you know, the big Amazon.com company, and I was on their reliability, which is engineering and maintenance, and which has been my bread and butter most of my life, is is the industrial trades.
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And I got this diagnosis about six months in.
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And what's wild is three months in, because I lacked this context to connect with people, three months into uh my time with Amazon, I was nearly fired over a conversation that somebody took out of context.
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Now, I must have taken it out of context, somebody else took it out of context, but what really happened was two people, I think, me and another person were really connecting, and a uh a new employee for Amazon came in, the supervisor level, and just overheard part of our conversation.
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And there was nothing crazy about it.
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We were just got we connected so quickly and so closely on our first day, we were sharing some heartfelt truths.
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And so I nearly got fired three months in.
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But then you go three months later, um, I get my diagnosis, and I thought, you know what?
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I'm just gonna embrace this.
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At Amazon, they call it having a superpower.
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What is your superpower?
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So uh, you know, let's let's do the whole turn lemons into lemonade thing, you know.
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I compliments of my time at the uh self-help aisle.
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Um and so I on my corporate email, I put at the bottom, kind of like a tagline underneath my signature or part of my signature, and it said, hey, I'm autistic, ADHD, dyslexic.
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Uh, if we're not connecting or if a message doesn't connect with you, just hey, reach out.
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Let's let's just work through this because I'm, you know, a little bit different.
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And so two things.
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One, I think it allowed me to remove that chip off my shoulder because uh when you have, when people look at you differently, when people look at me differently, um, we want to put up this barricade, this barrier, this shield, because we know how it goes.
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We've been hurt so many times when conversations go wrong.
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So we're looking to cancel out the other person as soon as we can.
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So when I shared my diagnosis, you know, publicly, right on every email that ever went out, and it said what I am and what I'm diagnosed as, and just hey, let's talk through it, it switched the uh uh uh switch in me, and I think it really helped others.
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Said, oh, you know, I I can just imagine that we've never really talked through it, but in my head, I kind of played this out.
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Oh, that's why Derek's weird.
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Or that's why I consider Derek weird.
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And what if Derek, what is it in your in your mind, like it like in your words, what is it that would make you weird?
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Like in quote unquote weird?
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Like what's different about how you would interact with people than someone that doesn't that isn't diagnosed?
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Taking things literally, everything to many autistics, um, we take things literally because we lack that that the subtext, the understanding of subtext.
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So when you're in a group and somebody asks a question and I respond literally and it's not on topic, they look at me like I'm I'm different, I'm weird, and and my mind always goes to exponential um layering on well, if it happened here, what if it happened 10 times, a hundred times, a thousand times?
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Um the um again, by the time I was 50, you know, I I just got to the point.
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Go ahead, sorry.
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But you learned, like you taught yourself, you recognized this before as something to work on, and you and you tackled it.
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Yeah, and the way I tackled that is like a computer.
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And uh do you know, yeah, like in the last few years, this uh AI thing came around and they're talking about prompt engineering.
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Have you ever heard that term?
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And prompt engineering is well, they put it this way if you can ask AI the right question in the right way with all the uh with all the food groups, so to speak, if you ask the right question in the right way, you're gonna get the right answer.
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And that's what prompt engineering is about.
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And when I first heard that and I'm looking through this, I'm thinking, oh my God, every A out there is autistic.
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Whether it be Claude or Chad GPT, it's they're autistic because they respond in a literal manner.
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It becomes specificity is required.
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Absolutely, absolutely.
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So um, a lot of assumptions that people have about things, I I never picked up on.
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So when somebody asks me the right question the right way, I answer like I'm a genius.
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They think I'm a genius.
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But uh my time, uh, my well, at least up until age 50, I would prepare two or three responses because I learned by this time that there's a disconnect.
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And it's using different word choices.
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The words are associative, but they're different word choices that maybe aren't accepted in different groups, uh different connectors.
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And so I would answer a question and they would look at me like this.
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I would immediately go to uh position two using the same answer but with different words, and then and then answer three if need be.
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So uh, like a human thesaurus here, I would go through and have all these answers prepped.
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So they cause me to respond slowly because I'm not thinking of one answer, I'm thinking of three.
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Right.
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Wow, that's fascinating.
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So part of our show is for Michelle to share her experience with Gregory, and hopefully, as you said, if we can help one person, that'd be amazing.
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And and we focus on that parent that just got the diagnosis and and the kind of you know the panic that we went through.
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Um if you were knowing what you know now, if you had a child, you know, if you had a it doesn't matter the age, I guess, and you know that this is a point, this point of subtlety, nuance, inference um is an issue.
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Is there anything that you would point a parent to to help train on this?
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Well, I would, and I can share an example from my own life because uh although none of my four children have ever been diagnosed neurodiverse in any manner, um neurodivergent, I think, is the correct terminology.
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Um, I know my youngest.
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My middle two for sure, but my youngest, there was a time when he wouldn't even talk to his best friend's dad at a soccer game when we were on the sidelines watching Big Brother or Big Sister.
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And he was just quiet.
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And I remember me quiet and shy.
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I, you know, there's those throwback, you know, when I was in school, I didn't say two words.
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And to me, I I probably didn't say many more than that back when I was a kid.
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So I understood this because I walked that path.
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So for my son, I I think the uh the recommendation would be is don't protect them.
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Put them in positions where they can learn for themselves, but just make sure you're supportive.
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And uh for autistics, there's a lot of it might be the hub to the autistic wheel.
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I I'm this isn't science that I've found, but you know, for me, you know what?
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You're it's uh after, so that's that's fantastic.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So if you put your uh child in a situation where they have to think on their own, but then you're supportive of them, put them in positions where they can talk and communicate in a safe environment.
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And I started out simple things like uh driving to the gas station, and I would send my son in by himself to, you know, ask a question or grab a pop or chips or water or something, or you know, here's a$20 bill, take them in and pay.
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And I always remember uh my son would look up at me like with these eyes, like, are you crazy?
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That scares the crap out of me.
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And but I would just look with assurance, like, hey, it's an everyday thing, you know, this is what we do, just go do it.
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And and and he would go and he'd come back, he'd go and he'd come back.
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And right now, my youngest, I mean, we're proud of all our kids for different reasons.
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I can go on a story for each one of them.
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But uh, this topic specifically, my youngest who wouldn't speak to people when he was younger, uh, he grew up, he's now uh what is he?
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I think 20.
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Well, he's my God, is he 26 this year in October?
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And he uh he's he's been very successful on his own.
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He has friends, he has groups of friends online, offline.
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All my kids have groups of friends, and that's something that I never had.
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And so just to uh you know summarize an answer for your question put them in positions where they can practice looking stupid, but without that vulnerability of someone accusing them of being stupid, and just assure them that hey, it's everyday life, we're all different, it's all perspective, it's just words.
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Wow, that's that's gotta be hard to do.
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It is.
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I do that with Gregory.
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I I don't do the cash thing because he's been quick changed so many times.
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Which is sad.
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There's a special place for those people.
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But he does have a bank card and he does go in and he has to talk to the people, and it's a hard thing for him, even at 31.
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And the and the difficulty in communications is is Derek is from the is from being misunderstood or feeling like you're not fully understanding what the other person is saying or thinking, or is it just that there's you're taking in more information than everyone else that you get overwhelmed?
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Well, I think uh both of those are applicable, Sean.
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Um smart people look stupid if they take time to respond.
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Dumb people look smart when they respond right away, you know, with confidence, right?
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So, and you know, there's a saying that says, you know, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.
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So all these play into let me respond with the right information at the right time, and uh it at the granular level too.
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So um, if somebody asks a question, I go right into, you know, I'm counting the grains of sand one by one.
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And the question might be, you know, can that uh, you know, uh four-wheel drive go across that field?
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Right.
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Well, if this and if that and this something else, and there's people that are like that, and you can probably think of your own scenario, and the audience can probably think their own scenario.
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There's somebody in your life, probably multiple somebodies in your life, where you just want an a yes or no question, and they start going into detail.
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And for autistics who have been accused of you know providing the wrong answers, not being in alignment, we go overboard on our answers because we want to supply all the information, kind of like a shotgun technique.
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Right.
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We want to give every answer A to Z because we don't want to leave anything out and be accused of holding something back.
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We feel that, whether we've ever been accused of that.
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And so when we're droning on, and it comes off as a drone, we're telling stories when somebody just wants a yes or no answer.
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And that's part, that that really is, that's part of being able to ask uh questions in the right manner, putting them in the right context.
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And for me, on the receiving end, um, that happens to me if if I ask a question and I'm looking for a yes-no, and somebody goes into, well, if this and if that and if something else, and it could rain, it may not rain.
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We've got you know, bigger tires or smaller tires, two-wheel drive, four-wheel drive.
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And my mind is just like, okay, I'm like a computer process and I'm stuck here at this uh fork in the road.
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:00.480
Yes or no?
00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:04.559
I need a yes or a no before I can comprehend anything else that you're saying.
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:06.799
And so it's kind of like the reverse.
00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:08.720
I need the context first.
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:14.240
Are we going left or right, up or down before I can understand any of the other information?
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:25.599
And it's kind of ironic, but uh many autistics will go through on this information dump before giving that yes or no.
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:35.279
So I've I've learned this through the self-help file that uh if we respond with the right information at the right time, it helps the conversation go along.
00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:38.960
And I remember a uh remember this thing called newspapers?
00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.880
It was like these big pieces of paper with a little typewriter print all over it.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:43.599
Back in the day.
00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:44.640
Yeah, back in the day.
00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:52.400
There were uh there were a couple sisters, uh uh Dear Abby and Ann Landers, and I used to read their context all the time.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:59.440
And one of the questions was, hey, I'm walking by somebody and you say, Hi, how you doing?
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:02.720
They don't really want to know how I'm doing.
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:03.279
Right?
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:06.480
Because if I start telling them, they're like, Oh God, I gotta get out of here.
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:08.480
Somebody pull me off with a hook.
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:11.839
And that's a contextual thing right there.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:21.200
I think uh, and I wish I did, was it Ann Landers or Derriabby, one of the two, said, Hey, it's just a form uh of saying hello.
00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:25.279
They really don't want to know how you're doing, and if you're doing bad, don't say you're doing bad.
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:26.960
Say, hey, hey, I'm good.
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:27.599
How about you?
00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:27.920
Right.
00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:29.359
It's just part of the situation.
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:39.039
Now, if you get into a one-on-one conversation with somebody that goes beyond, you know, the uh the the common stuff, yeah, you can get into it.
00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:49.119
But that's that's an example right there of where uh autistics take things literally uh down to the granular level and respond to such.
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:53.920
And that's why a lot of times people want to get away from me or us, you know.
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:57.680
Hey, I don't want to be pulled into this conversation again.
00:21:58.000 --> 00:21:58.240
Right.
00:21:58.480 --> 00:21:59.759
No, I mean I think we can all relate.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:19.359
to having that having that person in your life that is gonna is gonna tell you as they say in in in my world they you know you ask them what time it is they tell yeah the watch is made right and and it's it's and it's an art like I suffer from this uh a difficulty in condensing my thoughts i I struggle with it a lot and I think and I think a lot of people do.
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:25.359
So so it's so it's it's relatively common but you've but you've conquered it right I mean you're you're doing great today.
00:22:25.519 --> 00:23:55.039
Did did preparing this take a lot of work it has taken a lot of work and it stays uh I need to remind myself I do remind myself uh in the morning when I wake up before I go into a meeting with somebody before I start a conversation before I answer the phone uh I personally don't answer my phone because I don't know what to expect so I don't go down that path um I've got another answer to your question on guidance and there's a a very good friend of mine we hated each other we we we met at Amazon and if he's listening he goes yeah that's me but uh we're working with each other and what we found out is that uh and I don't know if he's ever been diagnosed officially but we know he is he's you know yep that's me um when somebody asks an autistic a question or get in the conversation generally from my experience I'm speaking um we want to talk about ourselves not because we're full of ourselves but because we want to share with the other person that says hey I'm like you know you know I I bungee jump I bungee jumped too and I did this and the sky was blue and the plane was green and I went with my best friend Jimmy and it it comes off as um as being full of oneself when for autistics it's really about I'm just throwing spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks because Sean I want to connect with you so much.
00:23:55.200 --> 00:24:01.680
I really do because I think human connection is the most important thing in the world and I don't have any connections out there.
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:41.839
So if we go back to real life um uh well I'll say Philip yeah I won't give his last name that how many Phillips are there um there's a lot of Philip yeah Philip you know I'm talking to uh but uh we got in this conversation and we had to work with each other so we were kind of our hand was forced and it got to be the point where I just was patient and I conversed with him and you know without raising voice without you know that trigger emotion or triggering his emotions and trying to keep my emotions in check at the same time I said hey when you connect to somebody um ask them about their day and just sit on your hands close your mouth and sit on your hands.
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:44.319
Don't move look them in the eye and listen.
00:24:44.480 --> 00:25:18.400
And then again self-help aisle 101 um we have two ears and one mouth so uh we should be uh speaking half as much as we listen inversely we should listen twice as much as we speak and when we do that people like to hear themselves talk and if I'm talking the entire conversation Sean Michelle you want to get out of the conversation but if I ask you how you are and let you talk and that's why we ask about the weather how was your day because it may lead into something else.
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:47.200
And Philip and I working with each other we got to a point and it was neat because what we taught at Amazon was a lot of Amazon stuff but it was centered around leadership development uh change management um uh conflict resolution you know those sorts of things and day one on our two week course in person was always get to know ourselves and get to know each other before we spoke anything about Amazon.
00:25:47.359 --> 00:26:53.200
So this conversation with Philip was uh hey if you want to connect with somebody Philip just speak less and he comes back like a week later and he says I did it I did it I sat there and listened and they they what they stay they stayed around it was the longest conversation I had and so uh Philip he's uh he's a fantastic guy he lives over on the east coast and I just drove out there last month just just to visit him him and I stay in touch we're best friends now was it was the Amazon HR process that that manifested the diagnosis um it was my time and I don't know what the trigger is Amazon because there's a million and a half employees uh has a lot of after school groups you know not after school but you know outside the normal realm right so there's lots of support in these uh these groups some of them are official Amazon support groups um and you know you get on uh like Slack or uh you know Google chat or something like that.
00:26:53.359 --> 00:27:03.200
They had their own internal chat that they used but uh it they there's there was conventions there was online communities and we just supported each other.
00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:15.920
I see so that's where a lot of it helped it wasn't HR directed you know HR wants to be responsible for anything but it's best that they just try to give the infrastructure and let people support themselves.
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:33.839
That's right that's why and I'm gonna tell you this um because it it's part of an answer it's the it's the complement of the answer to what happened once I admitted and shared with the world who I am um I built Amazon's highest rated employee training program in company history.
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:45.039
Oh wow that's amazing and it came it came down to understanding ourselves and understanding each other that we're different and having the patience to keep our mouths shut and our ears open.
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:46.559
It's it's simple stuff.
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:50.400
It's really what all leadership development is just to listen.
00:27:50.559 --> 00:28:00.720
But I taught that and I built a program out of it and and gave each employee uh an easy handhold so they could implement it within their own locations.
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:10.799
That's that's putting your superpower to work right it is yeah absolutely that's that high level of empathy that we talk about that Gregory has.
00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:25.519
Like he can really detect how you're feeling and I feel bad for him sometimes because he takes on if you're not having a great day he seems to he seems to take it on and stuff he's worried about you can tell you can tell you can totally sense how you're feeling that's unbelievable.
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:45.279
And so it's kind of fun though because for us and we had another guest that's uh that as an adult with autism and it's like I think for the parents watching or listening we hope it's a chance to kind of speak to their child in the future right it's a it's a chance to say because it's gonna be very difficult right to to to get information out of a child.
00:28:45.440 --> 00:29:05.839
And so and so like the more you can tell us about like what you like is there any part of you that says hey guys like this was all going on and no one was no one was waving a flag like what are those what are those things that happened that you sort of think people maybe should have caught on to to help you sooner you gotta have patience.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:31:10.559
For me growing up uh my personal experience uh I didn't have a prayer my uh I'm I'm one generation removed from Kentucky Hill people and uh my looking back now um on my dad's side of the family there is a higher than average um uh autism rate and also a higher than average suicide rate there's lots of suicides on my dad's side and I think it all comes uh we've talked about it internally before uh we feel pressure because we can't fit in and without connection to resources to say hey I'm different because and maybe I could fit in with this uh it's kind of like trying to run an engine without uh engine oil you know mechanically it's built right but it lacks that lubrication to let it flow so you're saying that taking that on you start to be you know you're you're critical of yourself right it works on your self-esteem correct we're critical of ourselves because we have that experience many times in public or it feels like public where we say something that is taken wrong you know what that's the wrong word when we say something that is taking out of context to our intent and that's part of what I would taught at Amazon intent versus impact Derek your intent may have been to you know share the winning lottery numbers but the impact was hey you're too stupid to figure it out what the winning lottery numbers are and that disconnect is what drives a wedge between people so if we're patient with ourselves if we're patient with those around us because by the time children are gosh even three or four years old they're talking and many times if they say something and mom or dad or grandma and grandpa or aunts and uncles say oh you can't do that or don't say that or that's stupid it's it's like we're throwing salt in a wound.
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:14.720
And so the reflex action is to cover up.
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:32.400
So we'll just go get along yes okay we'll become yes children just to get by because we don't want to feel stressed out and stress is around us all day long 247 and we don't want any more stress by being taken out of context.
00:31:32.640 --> 00:32:20.720
So um there should be guidelines there should be boundaries there should be consequences for all children is my belief but at the same time we should all be aware that hey our child is acting differently because of this or if I don't know why my child is acting differently they may or may not be autistic the uh the term neurodiversity or neurodivergent was coined I think in the late 90s and what that is it's an umbrella of all the differences that that separate us and it's a shame because we we consider things separately how can I push that person away instead of bonding with what we like so bond with your children by finding something that they like ask them and be quiet.
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:26.480
It might take an hour it might take a day it might take a month but find out what they like and do something with them.
00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:44.480
And it's a reward mechanism reward them for sharing their vulnerabilities and because the sooner they can speak their voice the better off they're gonna be the better off you and your family are going to be and the sooner their internal development can start.
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:52.240
Take down the walls and give them a chance to access all these cool tools and education that we have available today.
00:32:53.200 --> 00:33:05.359
That is incredible advice absolutely fascinating and and I think that I didn't fully understand like mentally the before and after.
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:11.440
So so it is it is it that after you were diagnosed you could just be less hard on yourself?
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:20.240
Is that I mean did you take the pressure off yourself?
00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:23.440
Is that one of the big differences that's uh that's a big part of it.
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:42.480
Yeah that is a big part of it it's uh it's similar to being five foot tall and trying every day to dunk a basketball okay you know one person out of a million might be able to right but we keep beating our head against the wall trying to do something that's out of our reach.
00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:51.680
So yes it's okay to grab a ladder and climb up the ladder and then dunk the basketball so I can experience dunking the basketball.
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:56.400
If the goal is dunking the basketball let's build the bridge to get there.
00:33:56.640 --> 00:34:07.759
And the same way for neurodivergence um it's an invisible you know we get away from the term handicap and we really don't like the term disability but it's a difference.
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:37.760
It's just understanding that there's differences between us all and if we if you go into any type of personality assessment and it's an assessment we say not a test uh but a personality assessment nearly everyone out there is some sort of let's split it down the middle and then split it again so there's these four common corners and then within each of those we can divide those into two or four right and is basic math.
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:38.239
Right.
00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:47.119
And if we allow ourselves to use the tools once I was categorized I know I could go grab a ladder.
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:51.599
Before that I just kept trying to dunk the ball on my own and living with failure.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:53.519
Faster and that's the difference.
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:04.639
And know that it's okay that that if you're if you're different as different is not is not bad.
00:35:05.280 --> 00:36:59.280
It is and Michelle and I were talking uh pre-call Sean and we got into uh trades industrial trades electricians pipe fitters plumbers mechanics mill rich you name it there's all these trades out there and if a plumber with plumbing tools went to work on an electrical box they don't have the right tools right does that make that person any less smart or intelligent right I'd I'd say no right and when we come into handling uh those loved ones around us that are neurodivergent it's all about finding the tools and the tools could be um calendars on the wall it could be reminders on our cell phone which I use both it uh it could be this I AI thing came about and we could throw projects into AI and I I throw projects into AI and it keeps track of details for me because my mind goes from topic to topic to topic and that might fall in more to the ADHD side of things but it's just the way my brain works um identify what tools work try everything out there um we were talking a little bit uh pre-show about medication uh I I don't believe medication should be first right out of the gate are there medications out there that have helped people absolutely honestly even after I was diagnosed I didn't jump on any medication until I took part in communities where I heard real life examples of other people that are autistic ADHD and really the medications a lot of times um we talk about more or the public knows more about for ADHD uh versus autism.
00:36:59.519 --> 00:38:11.440
Autism there's really no medication for autism and it's my belief that autism isn't bad to begin with it's just our mind works in a different pattern kind of like metric versus uh you know the traditional uh imperial system it just works differently and it's just understanding it really comes down to understanding and applying the right tools that is absolutely fascinating well you're doing a great job now this is really really unbelievably well presented fantastic so glad you reached out to us this is fun yeah so bad so tell us what human firstai.net is I see that on your yeah absolutely so uh I told you about uh early on I I found out that uh looking backwards that uh having the right information at the right time uh humans can do anything they really can so human first AI is a third choice that fork in the road of uh is AI going to replace humans and a lot of businesses out there are trying to replace humans with AI and that's not the right way to go about it.
00:38:11.599 --> 00:38:18.800
Um I think AI is a tool that uh we will all adopt and adapt within the next 20 years.
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:27.519
Um there's lots of people on both sides of the fence it's a polarizing subject so I'm not going to tell anybody they're right or wrong for what their thoughts are.
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:31.199
But if we look at the truth uh the same thing was said about the internet.
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:33.119
I don't need no darn internet.
00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:46.880
And it really took about 17 years from 1989 when the internet was introduced to 2006 when it really became adopted worldwide for the common, you know, normal quote unquote person.
00:38:47.039 --> 00:39:29.920
So uh human first AI is leveraging AI for all the good it can do and putting it in the hands of humans uh but we keep humans in the uh cockpit in the control seat here um we don't want AI thinking for the humans and my company practical AI uh our AI works with the humans so it's sound boards just like you and I are having a conversation now um human first AI doesn't just supply the answer it talks through and soundboards just like a subject matter expert would be if you're looking to try something new you get that expert on the line maybe it's Bob Ross teaching you how to paint right and you just ask questions like they're a friend in the room.
00:39:30.559 --> 00:40:12.079
And that's what human first AI is there's six things that that humans will always do better than computers and AI but AI has a spot because it can recall information it can talk us off the ledge it can talk us through problems and help us identify perspectives that uh that we block out on our own that's amazing fantastic it has been great to meet you I hope we get you back I look forward to it this is nice thank you so much for joining us today thank you all and thank your listeners here uh you're doing a great thing with this show uh please keep it up oh thank you thank you excellent until next time all right
00:00:00.479 --> 00:00:05.679
Welcome to the podcast Beyond Expectations, Parenting Autism.
00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:11.919
Follow Michelle Shabola's journey of raising a child with autism, the challenges, victories, and rewards.
00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:19.280
If you're a parent, caregiver, or simply someone seeking to understand autism on a personal level, you're in the right place.
00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:23.600
All right, here we are with Beyond Expectations.
00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:29.920
And today we have a guest with us from Indianapolis, Indiana, Derek Crager.
00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:31.679
Welcome to our show.
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How are you?
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Hi, Michelle.
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Hi, Sean.
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Hello, everybody.
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Thank you.
00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:37.520
Welcome, Derek.
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We're glad to have you.
00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:42.479
Michelle gave me a little bit of your background.
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I can't wait for you to introduce yourself to everyone who watches the podcast.
00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:49.920
Well, Michelle just introduced me, right?
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Is there more?
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Are we done yet?
00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:52.799
That was it.
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It's been nice having you.
00:00:55.759 --> 00:00:58.640
Now officially the shortest podcast we've had.
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Tell us about yourself.
00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:03.520
Why are you on my show today?
00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:03.920
How's that?
00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:04.719
How's that?
00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:09.840
Well, well, you'll probably be asking yourself that after we get done, uh, Michelle.
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Um, well, uh, you know, autism is is on uh my file now, but uh I'm 58, 59 last week, and uh I was late diagnosed, which that just means uh I was an adult uh when I was diagnosed at age 50.
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And so uh growing up, I was that odd duck.
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I was that uh uh square peg trying to fit in a round hole.
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So I spent my life in the self-help aisle of every library and bookstore.
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And you know, back then we had not only books, but we had uh cassette tapes and VHS tapes and then CDs and DVDs, and I mean you name it, uh it's out there.
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And and since then, you know, now we have podcasts and and audiobooks and all kinds of cool stuff.
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But uh I I looking back, I I learned in my life that uh if if humans have the right information at the right time, they can make the right decision.
00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:12.319
But my brain doesn't always connect at the same level that that to pick up the uh that social context.
00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:19.039
So um the first 40, 50 years of my life were trying to fit in, trying to adapt myself.
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And then at age 50, um I uh was diagnosed and I I cried for about two weeks.
00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:31.599
Oh, I mean, literally, uh good tears, happy tears, you know, regretful tears.
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Well, why couldn't I find this out earlier?
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Because uh us humans like to be categorized.
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It's not so much we want to be different, we want to stand out, but we don't want to stand out, but we want to be categorized, but we don't want anybody to put us in a category or pigeonhole us and and uh you know that uh that type of uh thought train.
00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:59.840
But what it does when we are category, when we are categorized, it's it's just like going to a uh a physical medical doctor.
00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:03.360
If you have a cold and it's diagnosed, well then you can treat it.
00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:26.240
And um to be diagnosed as autistic, ADHD, and dyslexic at age 50, it allowed me to one, forgive myself uh for a lot of my you know youthful uh exuberance and and lack of traction and all those other uh euphemisms that we throw around uh trying to deflect responsibility and and hurt and emotion.
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So uh um once I embraced my uh my difference, this uh neurodiversity we call it now, um I uh I seem to excel and it's uh my life has really changed and that is fascinating.
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Michelle, had had you heard of a diagnosis being this late before?
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I don't think so, but I know uh certain people or people that were like had a lot of more sensory things, they'd be like, how come this bothers me, that bothers me?
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And they would go ahead and research about it and say, Well, you know what?
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Maybe this is what I've got going on, but a full-blown diagnosis, not this late.
00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:08.319
I I can't imagine what he went through as a probably as a child.
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I mean, no thing.
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I mean, how was it?
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It had to be difficult.
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I mean, this was John, this is when you and I were in school.
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Right?
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So yeah, this is this is the vintage of people who um you know it came behind or came before the prevalence of the diagnosis.
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What's the usual what's the usual response here, kids, when uh when you ask that question?
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I had the greatest life ever.
00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:38.000
Yeah.
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Right?
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Well, some, yes, and well, right, some maybe not so much.
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You know, it's uh I tell you what, I I don't pity myself.
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I um I think that um just because we're diagnosed, we're categorized with this, uh, even today, children that are diagnosed autistic, ADHD, I really don't think they should be babied.
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Um I think I benefited from not being cradled, uh protected.
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Um I was exposed to some hard truths, that's for sure.
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Um and now that I'm on this side of the diagnosis, I'm able to connect all the dots.
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I've been keeping track of these dots for quite some time.
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Now I'm really able to connect all the dots.
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And I uh I thank both of you for having shows like this to um allow people to share their stories and uh inquire, because if if we just help one person, you know, I mean that's that's it.
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That's what we measure success by.
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If we can just help one person and we can help them by uh you know sharing our experience because it's a lot tougher and it takes a lot longer to learn going walking your own path than it does to you know hear stories from others and say, oh, you know what?
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I'd do that same thing.
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What did they do?
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Oh, I'm gonna try that.
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Right, and it's uh it's fantastic.
00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:13.279
Maybe I guess what's going through my mind is do you have a specific example of like I'm I'm I'm fascinated by this before and after moment.
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Like, so you know, you're a completely grown man, you're successful, like life life is not terrible, right?
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And then you get a diagnosis.
00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:21.199
How did it change?
00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:28.240
What did it change and what factors manifest themselves into something like a diagnosis?
00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:37.439
The decade before, so in my 40s, I started picking up hints and and seeing patterns.
00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:45.839
And so I started hanging around groups online and saying, you know, hey, um, asking myself these questions.
00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:48.240
Uh, you know, what what am I doing?
00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:49.839
Uh let me do this research.
00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:51.120
And that's the cool part.
00:06:51.199 --> 00:07:00.240
Uh, online came around with this internet thing, and and we were able to connect to uh databases and other people, different communities.
00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:09.920
And I love the fact that uh many of these communities, you don't have to show your card and say, hey, I'm a card carrying, you know, ADHD or uh autistic.
00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:11.519
It's just you know, come on in.
00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:13.600
And so I was a fly on the wall.
00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:14.720
I listened.
00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:24.800
I um I it took me probably two or three years before I'd throw a comment out, maybe once a month, and say, Hey, I I did this too, or or did you ever do this?
00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:25.920
Or that's what that means.
00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:27.439
You know, just simple stuff.
00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:31.920
And it it was a slow ramp up until my diagnosis.
00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:50.720
So uh what was key for me, uh, Sean, Michelle, is that uh I was working at Amazon, you know, the big Amazon.com company, and I was on their reliability, which is engineering and maintenance, and which has been my bread and butter most of my life, is is the industrial trades.
00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:53.839
And I got this diagnosis about six months in.
00:07:54.000 --> 00:08:09.040
And what's wild is three months in, because I lacked this context to connect with people, three months into uh my time with Amazon, I was nearly fired over a conversation that somebody took out of context.
00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:26.160
Now, I must have taken it out of context, somebody else took it out of context, but what really happened was two people, I think, me and another person were really connecting, and a uh a new employee for Amazon came in, the supervisor level, and just overheard part of our conversation.
00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:28.000
And there was nothing crazy about it.
00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:36.399
We were just got we connected so quickly and so closely on our first day, we were sharing some heartfelt truths.
00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:39.519
And so I nearly got fired three months in.
00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:46.000
But then you go three months later, um, I get my diagnosis, and I thought, you know what?
00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:47.440
I'm just gonna embrace this.
00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:49.679
At Amazon, they call it having a superpower.
00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:51.360
What is your superpower?
00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:56.480
So uh, you know, let's let's do the whole turn lemons into lemonade thing, you know.
00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:00.000
I compliments of my time at the uh self-help aisle.
00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:14.159
Um and so I on my corporate email, I put at the bottom, kind of like a tagline underneath my signature or part of my signature, and it said, hey, I'm autistic, ADHD, dyslexic.
00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:19.360
Uh, if we're not connecting or if a message doesn't connect with you, just hey, reach out.
00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:23.600
Let's let's just work through this because I'm, you know, a little bit different.
00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:25.600
And so two things.
00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:44.000
One, I think it allowed me to remove that chip off my shoulder because uh when you have, when people look at you differently, when people look at me differently, um, we want to put up this barricade, this barrier, this shield, because we know how it goes.
00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:47.600
We've been hurt so many times when conversations go wrong.
00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:52.799
So we're looking to cancel out the other person as soon as we can.
00:09:53.120 --> 00:10:11.600
So when I shared my diagnosis, you know, publicly, right on every email that ever went out, and it said what I am and what I'm diagnosed as, and just hey, let's talk through it, it switched the uh uh uh switch in me, and I think it really helped others.
00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:17.519
Said, oh, you know, I I can just imagine that we've never really talked through it, but in my head, I kind of played this out.
00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:18.879
Oh, that's why Derek's weird.
00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:21.919
Or that's why I consider Derek weird.
00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:29.679
And what if Derek, what is it in your in your mind, like it like in your words, what is it that would make you weird?
00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:30.960
Like in quote unquote weird?
00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:36.639
Like what's different about how you would interact with people than someone that doesn't that isn't diagnosed?
00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:52.639
Taking things literally, everything to many autistics, um, we take things literally because we lack that that the subtext, the understanding of subtext.
00:10:53.200 --> 00:11:14.559
So when you're in a group and somebody asks a question and I respond literally and it's not on topic, they look at me like I'm I'm different, I'm weird, and and my mind always goes to exponential um layering on well, if it happened here, what if it happened 10 times, a hundred times, a thousand times?
00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:24.320
Um the um again, by the time I was 50, you know, I I just got to the point.
00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:25.200
Go ahead, sorry.
00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:31.679
But you learned, like you taught yourself, you recognized this before as something to work on, and you and you tackled it.
00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.960
Yeah, and the way I tackled that is like a computer.
00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:43.200
And uh do you know, yeah, like in the last few years, this uh AI thing came around and they're talking about prompt engineering.
00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:44.799
Have you ever heard that term?
00:11:45.039 --> 00:12:01.200
And prompt engineering is well, they put it this way if you can ask AI the right question in the right way with all the uh with all the food groups, so to speak, if you ask the right question in the right way, you're gonna get the right answer.
00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:03.679
And that's what prompt engineering is about.
00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:10.879
And when I first heard that and I'm looking through this, I'm thinking, oh my God, every A out there is autistic.
00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:16.960
Whether it be Claude or Chad GPT, it's they're autistic because they respond in a literal manner.
00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:20.399
It becomes specificity is required.
00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:22.320
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:28.159
So um, a lot of assumptions that people have about things, I I never picked up on.
00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:34.000
So when somebody asks me the right question the right way, I answer like I'm a genius.
00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:35.600
They think I'm a genius.
00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:49.200
But uh my time, uh, my well, at least up until age 50, I would prepare two or three responses because I learned by this time that there's a disconnect.
00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:51.759
And it's using different word choices.
00:12:51.840 --> 00:13:00.720
The words are associative, but they're different word choices that maybe aren't accepted in different groups, uh different connectors.
00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:04.960
And so I would answer a question and they would look at me like this.
00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:14.159
I would immediately go to uh position two using the same answer but with different words, and then and then answer three if need be.
00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:19.519
So uh, like a human thesaurus here, I would go through and have all these answers prepped.
00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:24.399
So they cause me to respond slowly because I'm not thinking of one answer, I'm thinking of three.
00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:25.039
Right.
00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:26.639
Wow, that's fascinating.
00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:35.440
So part of our show is for Michelle to share her experience with Gregory, and hopefully, as you said, if we can help one person, that'd be amazing.
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:42.480
And and we focus on that parent that just got the diagnosis and and the kind of you know the panic that we went through.
00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:55.679
Um if you were knowing what you know now, if you had a child, you know, if you had a it doesn't matter the age, I guess, and you know that this is a point, this point of subtlety, nuance, inference um is an issue.
00:13:55.759 --> 00:13:59.360
Is there anything that you would point a parent to to help train on this?
00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:14.960
Well, I would, and I can share an example from my own life because uh although none of my four children have ever been diagnosed neurodiverse in any manner, um neurodivergent, I think, is the correct terminology.
00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:17.039
Um, I know my youngest.
00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:30.080
My middle two for sure, but my youngest, there was a time when he wouldn't even talk to his best friend's dad at a soccer game when we were on the sidelines watching Big Brother or Big Sister.
00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:31.759
And he was just quiet.
00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:34.000
And I remember me quiet and shy.
00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:38.639
I, you know, there's those throwback, you know, when I was in school, I didn't say two words.
00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:43.360
And to me, I I probably didn't say many more than that back when I was a kid.
00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:46.480
So I understood this because I walked that path.
00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:53.600
So for my son, I I think the uh the recommendation would be is don't protect them.
00:14:55.440 --> 00:15:01.759
Put them in positions where they can learn for themselves, but just make sure you're supportive.
00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:09.039
And uh for autistics, there's a lot of it might be the hub to the autistic wheel.
00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:14.159
I I'm this isn't science that I've found, but you know, for me, you know what?
00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:16.559
You're it's uh after, so that's that's fantastic.
00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:17.039
Yeah.
00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:17.840
Yeah.
00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:28.960
So if you put your uh child in a situation where they have to think on their own, but then you're supportive of them, put them in positions where they can talk and communicate in a safe environment.
00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:48.000
And I started out simple things like uh driving to the gas station, and I would send my son in by himself to, you know, ask a question or grab a pop or chips or water or something, or you know, here's a$20 bill, take them in and pay.
00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:54.720
And I always remember uh my son would look up at me like with these eyes, like, are you crazy?
00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:56.720
That scares the crap out of me.
00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:04.080
And but I would just look with assurance, like, hey, it's an everyday thing, you know, this is what we do, just go do it.
00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:08.879
And and and he would go and he'd come back, he'd go and he'd come back.
00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:14.399
And right now, my youngest, I mean, we're proud of all our kids for different reasons.
00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:16.720
I can go on a story for each one of them.
00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:26.480
But uh, this topic specifically, my youngest who wouldn't speak to people when he was younger, uh, he grew up, he's now uh what is he?
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:27.840
I think 20.
00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:32.240
Well, he's my God, is he 26 this year in October?
00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:35.519
And he uh he's he's been very successful on his own.
00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:40.480
He has friends, he has groups of friends online, offline.
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.720
All my kids have groups of friends, and that's something that I never had.
00:16:45.039 --> 00:17:05.279
And so just to uh you know summarize an answer for your question put them in positions where they can practice looking stupid, but without that vulnerability of someone accusing them of being stupid, and just assure them that hey, it's everyday life, we're all different, it's all perspective, it's just words.
00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:07.839
Wow, that's that's gotta be hard to do.
00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:08.720
It is.
00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:10.000
I do that with Gregory.
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:14.480
I I don't do the cash thing because he's been quick changed so many times.
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:15.680
Which is sad.
00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:17.680
There's a special place for those people.
00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:24.160
But he does have a bank card and he does go in and he has to talk to the people, and it's a hard thing for him, even at 31.
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:44.160
And the and the difficulty in communications is is Derek is from the is from being misunderstood or feeling like you're not fully understanding what the other person is saying or thinking, or is it just that there's you're taking in more information than everyone else that you get overwhelmed?
00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:49.039
Well, I think uh both of those are applicable, Sean.
00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:55.680
Um smart people look stupid if they take time to respond.
00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.720
Dumb people look smart when they respond right away, you know, with confidence, right?
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:06.799
So, and you know, there's a saying that says, you know, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.
00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:18.319
So all these play into let me respond with the right information at the right time, and uh it at the granular level too.
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:26.799
So um, if somebody asks a question, I go right into, you know, I'm counting the grains of sand one by one.
00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:33.759
And the question might be, you know, can that uh, you know, uh four-wheel drive go across that field?
00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:34.240
Right.
00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:42.240
Well, if this and if that and this something else, and there's people that are like that, and you can probably think of your own scenario, and the audience can probably think their own scenario.
00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:50.000
There's somebody in your life, probably multiple somebodies in your life, where you just want an a yes or no question, and they start going into detail.
00:18:50.559 --> 00:19:06.799
And for autistics who have been accused of you know providing the wrong answers, not being in alignment, we go overboard on our answers because we want to supply all the information, kind of like a shotgun technique.
00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:07.039
Right.
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:14.160
We want to give every answer A to Z because we don't want to leave anything out and be accused of holding something back.
00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:16.880
We feel that, whether we've ever been accused of that.
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:24.880
And so when we're droning on, and it comes off as a drone, we're telling stories when somebody just wants a yes or no answer.
00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:32.640
And that's part, that that really is, that's part of being able to ask uh questions in the right manner, putting them in the right context.
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:47.440
And for me, on the receiving end, um, that happens to me if if I ask a question and I'm looking for a yes-no, and somebody goes into, well, if this and if that and if something else, and it could rain, it may not rain.
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:51.440
We've got you know, bigger tires or smaller tires, two-wheel drive, four-wheel drive.
00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:59.519
And my mind is just like, okay, I'm like a computer process and I'm stuck here at this uh fork in the road.
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:00.480
Yes or no?
00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:04.559
I need a yes or a no before I can comprehend anything else that you're saying.
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:06.799
And so it's kind of like the reverse.
00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:08.720
I need the context first.
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:14.240
Are we going left or right, up or down before I can understand any of the other information?
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:25.599
And it's kind of ironic, but uh many autistics will go through on this information dump before giving that yes or no.
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:35.279
So I've I've learned this through the self-help file that uh if we respond with the right information at the right time, it helps the conversation go along.
00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:38.960
And I remember a uh remember this thing called newspapers?
00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.880
It was like these big pieces of paper with a little typewriter print all over it.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:43.599
Back in the day.
00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:44.640
Yeah, back in the day.
00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:52.400
There were uh there were a couple sisters, uh uh Dear Abby and Ann Landers, and I used to read their context all the time.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:59.440
And one of the questions was, hey, I'm walking by somebody and you say, Hi, how you doing?
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:02.720
They don't really want to know how I'm doing.
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:03.279
Right?
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:06.480
Because if I start telling them, they're like, Oh God, I gotta get out of here.
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:08.480
Somebody pull me off with a hook.
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:11.839
And that's a contextual thing right there.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:21.200
I think uh, and I wish I did, was it Ann Landers or Derriabby, one of the two, said, Hey, it's just a form uh of saying hello.
00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:25.279
They really don't want to know how you're doing, and if you're doing bad, don't say you're doing bad.
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:26.960
Say, hey, hey, I'm good.
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:27.599
How about you?
00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:27.920
Right.
00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:29.359
It's just part of the situation.
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:39.039
Now, if you get into a one-on-one conversation with somebody that goes beyond, you know, the uh the the common stuff, yeah, you can get into it.
00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:49.119
But that's that's an example right there of where uh autistics take things literally uh down to the granular level and respond to such.
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:53.920
And that's why a lot of times people want to get away from me or us, you know.
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:57.680
Hey, I don't want to be pulled into this conversation again.
00:21:58.000 --> 00:21:58.240
Right.
00:21:58.480 --> 00:21:59.759
No, I mean I think we can all relate.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:19.359
to having that having that person in your life that is gonna is gonna tell you as they say in in in my world they you know you ask them what time it is they tell yeah the watch is made right and and it's it's and it's an art like I suffer from this uh a difficulty in condensing my thoughts i I struggle with it a lot and I think and I think a lot of people do.
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:25.359
So so it's so it's it's relatively common but you've but you've conquered it right I mean you're you're doing great today.
00:22:25.519 --> 00:23:55.039
Did did preparing this take a lot of work it has taken a lot of work and it stays uh I need to remind myself I do remind myself uh in the morning when I wake up before I go into a meeting with somebody before I start a conversation before I answer the phone uh I personally don't answer my phone because I don't know what to expect so I don't go down that path um I've got another answer to your question on guidance and there's a a very good friend of mine we hated each other we we we met at Amazon and if he's listening he goes yeah that's me but uh we're working with each other and what we found out is that uh and I don't know if he's ever been diagnosed officially but we know he is he's you know yep that's me um when somebody asks an autistic a question or get in the conversation generally from my experience I'm speaking um we want to talk about ourselves not because we're full of ourselves but because we want to share with the other person that says hey I'm like you know you know I I bungee jump I bungee jumped too and I did this and the sky was blue and the plane was green and I went with my best friend Jimmy and it it comes off as um as being full of oneself when for autistics it's really about I'm just throwing spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks because Sean I want to connect with you so much.
00:23:55.200 --> 00:24:01.680
I really do because I think human connection is the most important thing in the world and I don't have any connections out there.
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:41.839
So if we go back to real life um uh well I'll say Philip yeah I won't give his last name that how many Phillips are there um there's a lot of Philip yeah Philip you know I'm talking to uh but uh we got in this conversation and we had to work with each other so we were kind of our hand was forced and it got to be the point where I just was patient and I conversed with him and you know without raising voice without you know that trigger emotion or triggering his emotions and trying to keep my emotions in check at the same time I said hey when you connect to somebody um ask them about their day and just sit on your hands close your mouth and sit on your hands.
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:44.319
Don't move look them in the eye and listen.
00:24:44.480 --> 00:25:18.400
And then again self-help aisle 101 um we have two ears and one mouth so uh we should be uh speaking half as much as we listen inversely we should listen twice as much as we speak and when we do that people like to hear themselves talk and if I'm talking the entire conversation Sean Michelle you want to get out of the conversation but if I ask you how you are and let you talk and that's why we ask about the weather how was your day because it may lead into something else.
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:47.200
And Philip and I working with each other we got to a point and it was neat because what we taught at Amazon was a lot of Amazon stuff but it was centered around leadership development uh change management um uh conflict resolution you know those sorts of things and day one on our two week course in person was always get to know ourselves and get to know each other before we spoke anything about Amazon.
00:25:47.359 --> 00:26:53.200
So this conversation with Philip was uh hey if you want to connect with somebody Philip just speak less and he comes back like a week later and he says I did it I did it I sat there and listened and they they what they stay they stayed around it was the longest conversation I had and so uh Philip he's uh he's a fantastic guy he lives over on the east coast and I just drove out there last month just just to visit him him and I stay in touch we're best friends now was it was the Amazon HR process that that manifested the diagnosis um it was my time and I don't know what the trigger is Amazon because there's a million and a half employees uh has a lot of after school groups you know not after school but you know outside the normal realm right so there's lots of support in these uh these groups some of them are official Amazon support groups um and you know you get on uh like Slack or uh you know Google chat or something like that.
00:26:53.359 --> 00:27:03.200
They had their own internal chat that they used but uh it they there's there was conventions there was online communities and we just supported each other.
00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:15.920
I see so that's where a lot of it helped it wasn't HR directed you know HR wants to be responsible for anything but it's best that they just try to give the infrastructure and let people support themselves.
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:33.839
That's right that's why and I'm gonna tell you this um because it it's part of an answer it's the it's the complement of the answer to what happened once I admitted and shared with the world who I am um I built Amazon's highest rated employee training program in company history.
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:45.039
Oh wow that's amazing and it came it came down to understanding ourselves and understanding each other that we're different and having the patience to keep our mouths shut and our ears open.
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:46.559
It's it's simple stuff.
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:50.400
It's really what all leadership development is just to listen.
00:27:50.559 --> 00:28:00.720
But I taught that and I built a program out of it and and gave each employee uh an easy handhold so they could implement it within their own locations.
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:10.799
That's that's putting your superpower to work right it is yeah absolutely that's that high level of empathy that we talk about that Gregory has.
00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:25.519
Like he can really detect how you're feeling and I feel bad for him sometimes because he takes on if you're not having a great day he seems to he seems to take it on and stuff he's worried about you can tell you can tell you can totally sense how you're feeling that's unbelievable.
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:45.279
And so it's kind of fun though because for us and we had another guest that's uh that as an adult with autism and it's like I think for the parents watching or listening we hope it's a chance to kind of speak to their child in the future right it's a it's a chance to say because it's gonna be very difficult right to to to get information out of a child.
00:28:45.440 --> 00:29:05.839
And so and so like the more you can tell us about like what you like is there any part of you that says hey guys like this was all going on and no one was no one was waving a flag like what are those what are those things that happened that you sort of think people maybe should have caught on to to help you sooner you gotta have patience.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:31:10.559
For me growing up uh my personal experience uh I didn't have a prayer my uh I'm I'm one generation removed from Kentucky Hill people and uh my looking back now um on my dad's side of the family there is a higher than average um uh autism rate and also a higher than average suicide rate there's lots of suicides on my dad's side and I think it all comes uh we've talked about it internally before uh we feel pressure because we can't fit in and without connection to resources to say hey I'm different because and maybe I could fit in with this uh it's kind of like trying to run an engine without uh engine oil you know mechanically it's built right but it lacks that lubrication to let it flow so you're saying that taking that on you start to be you know you're you're critical of yourself right it works on your self-esteem correct we're critical of ourselves because we have that experience many times in public or it feels like public where we say something that is taken wrong you know what that's the wrong word when we say something that is taking out of context to our intent and that's part of what I would taught at Amazon intent versus impact Derek your intent may have been to you know share the winning lottery numbers but the impact was hey you're too stupid to figure it out what the winning lottery numbers are and that disconnect is what drives a wedge between people so if we're patient with ourselves if we're patient with those around us because by the time children are gosh even three or four years old they're talking and many times if they say something and mom or dad or grandma and grandpa or aunts and uncles say oh you can't do that or don't say that or that's stupid it's it's like we're throwing salt in a wound.
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:14.720
And so the reflex action is to cover up.
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:32.400
So we'll just go get along yes okay we'll become yes children just to get by because we don't want to feel stressed out and stress is around us all day long 247 and we don't want any more stress by being taken out of context.
00:31:32.640 --> 00:32:20.720
So um there should be guidelines there should be boundaries there should be consequences for all children is my belief but at the same time we should all be aware that hey our child is acting differently because of this or if I don't know why my child is acting differently they may or may not be autistic the uh the term neurodiversity or neurodivergent was coined I think in the late 90s and what that is it's an umbrella of all the differences that that separate us and it's a shame because we we consider things separately how can I push that person away instead of bonding with what we like so bond with your children by finding something that they like ask them and be quiet.
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:26.480
It might take an hour it might take a day it might take a month but find out what they like and do something with them.
00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:44.480
And it's a reward mechanism reward them for sharing their vulnerabilities and because the sooner they can speak their voice the better off they're gonna be the better off you and your family are going to be and the sooner their internal development can start.
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:52.240
Take down the walls and give them a chance to access all these cool tools and education that we have available today.
00:32:53.200 --> 00:33:05.359
That is incredible advice absolutely fascinating and and I think that I didn't fully understand like mentally the before and after.
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:11.440
So so it is it is it that after you were diagnosed you could just be less hard on yourself?
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Is that I mean did you take the pressure off yourself?
00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:23.440
Is that one of the big differences that's uh that's a big part of it.
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:42.480
Yeah that is a big part of it it's uh it's similar to being five foot tall and trying every day to dunk a basketball okay you know one person out of a million might be able to right but we keep beating our head against the wall trying to do something that's out of our reach.
00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:51.680
So yes it's okay to grab a ladder and climb up the ladder and then dunk the basketball so I can experience dunking the basketball.
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:56.400
If the goal is dunking the basketball let's build the bridge to get there.
00:33:56.640 --> 00:34:07.759
And the same way for neurodivergence um it's an invisible you know we get away from the term handicap and we really don't like the term disability but it's a difference.
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:37.760
It's just understanding that there's differences between us all and if we if you go into any type of personality assessment and it's an assessment we say not a test uh but a personality assessment nearly everyone out there is some sort of let's split it down the middle and then split it again so there's these four common corners and then within each of those we can divide those into two or four right and is basic math.
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:38.239
Right.
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And if we allow ourselves to use the tools once I was categorized I know I could go grab a ladder.
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:51.599
Before that I just kept trying to dunk the ball on my own and living with failure.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:53.519
Faster and that's the difference.
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:04.639
And know that it's okay that that if you're if you're different as different is not is not bad.
00:35:05.280 --> 00:36:59.280
It is and Michelle and I were talking uh pre-call Sean and we got into uh trades industrial trades electricians pipe fitters plumbers mechanics mill rich you name it there's all these trades out there and if a plumber with plumbing tools went to work on an electrical box they don't have the right tools right does that make that person any less smart or intelligent right I'd I'd say no right and when we come into handling uh those loved ones around us that are neurodivergent it's all about finding the tools and the tools could be um calendars on the wall it could be reminders on our cell phone which I use both it uh it could be this I AI thing came about and we could throw projects into AI and I I throw projects into AI and it keeps track of details for me because my mind goes from topic to topic to topic and that might fall in more to the ADHD side of things but it's just the way my brain works um identify what tools work try everything out there um we were talking a little bit uh pre-show about medication uh I I don't believe medication should be first right out of the gate are there medications out there that have helped people absolutely honestly even after I was diagnosed I didn't jump on any medication until I took part in communities where I heard real life examples of other people that are autistic ADHD and really the medications a lot of times um we talk about more or the public knows more about for ADHD uh versus autism.
00:36:59.519 --> 00:38:11.440
Autism there's really no medication for autism and it's my belief that autism isn't bad to begin with it's just our mind works in a different pattern kind of like metric versus uh you know the traditional uh imperial system it just works differently and it's just understanding it really comes down to understanding and applying the right tools that is absolutely fascinating well you're doing a great job now this is really really unbelievably well presented fantastic so glad you reached out to us this is fun yeah so bad so tell us what human firstai.net is I see that on your yeah absolutely so uh I told you about uh early on I I found out that uh looking backwards that uh having the right information at the right time uh humans can do anything they really can so human first AI is a third choice that fork in the road of uh is AI going to replace humans and a lot of businesses out there are trying to replace humans with AI and that's not the right way to go about it.
00:38:11.599 --> 00:38:18.800
Um I think AI is a tool that uh we will all adopt and adapt within the next 20 years.
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:27.519
Um there's lots of people on both sides of the fence it's a polarizing subject so I'm not going to tell anybody they're right or wrong for what their thoughts are.
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:31.199
But if we look at the truth uh the same thing was said about the internet.
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I don't need no darn internet.
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And it really took about 17 years from 1989 when the internet was introduced to 2006 when it really became adopted worldwide for the common, you know, normal quote unquote person.
00:38:47.039 --> 00:39:29.920
So uh human first AI is leveraging AI for all the good it can do and putting it in the hands of humans uh but we keep humans in the uh cockpit in the control seat here um we don't want AI thinking for the humans and my company practical AI uh our AI works with the humans so it's sound boards just like you and I are having a conversation now um human first AI doesn't just supply the answer it talks through and soundboards just like a subject matter expert would be if you're looking to try something new you get that expert on the line maybe it's Bob Ross teaching you how to paint right and you just ask questions like they're a friend in the room.
00:39:30.559 --> 00:40:12.079
And that's what human first AI is there's six things that that humans will always do better than computers and AI but AI has a spot because it can recall information it can talk us off the ledge it can talk us through problems and help us identify perspectives that uh that we block out on our own that's amazing fantastic it has been great to meet you I hope we get you back I look forward to it this is nice thank you so much for joining us today thank you all and thank your listeners here uh you're doing a great thing with this show uh please keep it up oh thank you thank you excellent until next time all right
