S2 E6: Before the Children Feel It: Marriage & the Emotional Weather of the Home with Erica Komisar

Gabriella Pomare: Welcome back to Before It Breaks with Gabriella Pomari. This is the podcast where we talk about the things that often begin quietly. Before the separation, before the resentment, before the emotional shutdown, and before two people become strangers in the same house, before the children start carrying what the adults have not yet been able to name. Today's conversation is about children. But it's really also about the emotional weather of the home. Because children may not always understand what's happening between adults, but they feel it. They feel the tension, they feel the silence, they feel the sharp tone. They feel when one parent is emotionally absent, and they feel when affection disappears. They feel when the house is functioning, but no longer feel soft or safe or connected. And so often when we talk about relationships, we focus on the couple, the communication, the intimacy, the resentment, the conflict, the repair. But children are living inside that relationship too. They're watching how love is expressed, how conflict is handled, how apologies are made, and how stress moves through the home, how parents treat each other when they're tired or disappointed or resentful. Or overwhelmed. So my guest today is Erica Komisar Now Erica is a clinical social worker, psychoanalyst, parenting expert, an author whose work focuses on parental presence, attachment, emotional resilience, adolescence, anxiety, and what children need to grow into secure, emotionally healthy people. She's the author of Being There. Chicken Little the Sky Isn't Falling and A Parent's Guide to Divorce. But today, what I really want to speak with Erica about is what happens long before a family reaches breaking point. What do children need inside marriages and relationships that are under pressure? What do they absorb when parents are disconnected? What happens when stress becomes the language of the home? And how do children experience emotional absence? Even when both parents are physically there. This is a conversation about marriage and parenting and attachment, anxiety, emotional presence, and the quiet ways children feel what adults don't say. It's about what we need to notice before the home stops feeling safe, before children carry the tension, and before it breaks. So Erica, thank you so much for joining me on Before It Breaks today. And before we get into it, I have absolutely no doubt that my listeners very much know who you are. But did you want to give us a bit of an idea as to your work and for those who don't know you, a bit more about you.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: So I'm a psychoanalyst and an author of parenting books, and I've been writing books for the last decade. I have three books out now. My first was on the first critical period of brain development, zero to three. The second was on adolescence, which is the second period of brain development and what parents can do. To help their children to become resilient. And then
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: the most recent book is on how to help families through divorce, meaning giving parents really concrete ways to help their children so they come out of the divorce situation, which is, you know, is difficult and challenging and often traumatic for children, how to reduce that and how to help their children to become mentally healthy and resilient coming out of that process.
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah, absolutely. Look, I took great inspiration from that and from the work you do do in that area. as you know, I am a divorce attorney. I've been through a divorce myself with young children. and a lot of the work I do is in that co parenting space. So for me to try and do it more collaboratively with, you know, the child at the front of your mind, I think is so important. so that work is really important. Now on before it breaks and on this podcast we talk more about families and relationships and look, I'm always interested in what happens, you know, before a family reaches crisis. What do you think that children often feel before adults realize that something in the relationship has shifted?
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Well, I mean, children can pick up on the conflicts and you know, I I know that parents often feel that they hide their conflicts with one another from their children, but children pick up on you say the vibrations in the family, the the
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: feeling, whether their parents show affection for one another, whether they seem to love and admire and respect one another. you know, I I think when parents aren't affectionate with one one another, it's one of the first signs. And I think that the children then feel frightened. I mean, you'll often find children whose parents are not divorcing, but are just fighting and not getting along. You'll see children jump to the conclusion and say, Are you getting a divorce? And
Gabriella Pomare: No.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: the reason is that children need the security and permanence of marriage. It it it helps them to feel secure. And I think they're always in fear that it's going to disappear. And so even if you you raise children to be very emotionally secure, you know, it's so prevalent in society divorce that children live in fear that they'll become part of that statistic. And so, yeah, you'll often find children who just don't like their parents in major conflicts that are unresolvable. You know, I always say that conflict, and you probably say this too to your clients, that conflict is a natural part of a marriage. In fact, you can't be intimate with someone who you're not honest with and you don't
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: have. Like sometimes, but children need to see the arc of the conflict, so there's a resolution. And if there's a resolution, then you can fight, not fight like throw dishes and you know break furniture. But you can argue with one another or disagree. But as long as there's an arc of compromise and the children can see it, then they they they grow up learning that conflict is a normal part of loving relationships, but that conflicts can be resolved. But if they don't see that arc, they get very anxious.
Gabriella Pomare: Mm. And I suppose it's about healthy conflict as well because children would learn from repair just as
Erica Komisar,LCSW: That's right.
Gabriella Pomare: much as yeah. Do you think that children can sense disconnection between parents even when there's no obvious conflict?
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Yeah, as I said, I think that they f pick up on all the meta communication between parents. they pick up on the nonverbal communication. Children are still very close to a nonverbal form of communication. So they're closer than than than we as adults are. So, you know, there's two kinds of regulating children's emotions. One is called primary regulation, the other secondary. Primary regulation is when you have a baby. And it's it's
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: not what you say, it's all the nonverbals. It's the eye contact, it's the skin-to-skin contact, it's the tone of your voice, it's reflecting their emotions with your face, mirroring them. It's it's all of those nonverbal cues. And so children are very sensitive, not just to what parents say, obviously, they're sensitive to that, but to how they behave and all of the nonverbal communication. And I think the nonverbal communication is much harder for parents to hide, they think they're hiding. when they when they don't fight openly with words, but they don't realize that
Gabriella Pomare: Yes.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: the conflict is there on a nonverbal level.
Gabriella Pomare: Absolutely. I mean, I have so many parents who come to me and say, But we don't fight in front of the children. But
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Right.
Gabriella Pomare: I you know, I always say they pick up on the eye roll or the lack of affection in the kitchen. They'll see when mum and dad aren't holding hands anymore, they're not embracing one another. I think they can pick up on that coldness and tension as well. I I assume you would agree with the idea that open conflict, yes, that it affects children, but I think just as much they absorb silence and withdrawal and emotional distance.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Yeah. I mean, I I don't have a problem with open conflict as long as it's regulated open conflict. I mean, screaming at each other isn't a good idea ever to resolve conflict. But disagreeing
Gabriella Pomare: Mm. Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: about something in front of your children and showing them it's not scary to disagree with someone also gives your children the right to disagree. You have to give your children the right to disagree with you. Some parents don't, but
Gabriella Pomare: That is true.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: you have to give your children the liberty and the permission to disagree. But and you model it for them that we daddy and I or mommy and I can disagree, but then we kind of find resolution, we'll compromise, or we agree to disagree. and I think that that's the healthiest way to model for children how you deal with conflict. You know, children watch
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: their parents to see how they deal with conflict. And if their parents can't deal with conflict well, they don't necessarily learn how to deal with conflict well.
Gabriella Pomare: Hm, I agree with that. I guess what would you say the emotional impact then on children is when a home seems to be functioning on the outside, but it's very tense and disconnected within the home and amongst the parents?
Erica Komisar,LCSW: You know, again, I think children can do one of two things when that happens. I think they can either check out because it's disturbing to them, or they
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: can try to become the glue and pull parents to you know, very young children will say, you know, Mommy and Daddy, let's eat dinner together, or let's go. Can
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: we go to the park together? Let's know I want both of you to go. Or, you know, we'll crawl in bed between parents to pull them, you know. So I think that Children can have different defensive reactions. One is just to turn away from the conflict and dissociate. The other is to try to kind of become the glue that holds the family together. so
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: in in any case, it's it's always better when parents can resolve conflicts in a healthy way. And if you can't resolve conflicts in a healthy way, go get some help to learn how to, you know, fighting fair is an important part of marriage. And
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: You know, I I often think, I'm sure you would agree with this, that there are so many divorces that are preventable if you got to them early enough. But that
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: I mean not all, you know, but but because people don't get help until it's too late, I always say if you climb a mountain and you're going down the other side and somebody says, Well, you know, you can fix this, but you have to go back up and go back. you know, you're gonna say, no, I'm already over the mountain and halfway down the other side. So I think if you can catch s couples who don't work through their conflicts in a healthy way early enough, like really early,
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: then you can often prevent divorces. And I don't think we talk much about that because I think, you know, it's it's a little like the medical system. It's not preventative, it's problem-based. And so it's
Gabriella Pomare: Absolutely.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: symptom based. So, you know, to develop symptoms, you have to be very far along.
Gabriella Pomare: Mm, mm. No, I think you're entirely right. And I think that is why I created why I started this podcast because I had done so much work in the divorce space, separation, co parenting, and I thought there's gotta be more to this. Can we start having more open discussions and healthy communication about relationships and marriage and how difficult it is when children come along, you know, when work becomes really the third person in the relationship, when there is high conflict and how do we repair? And I think a big part of it is as as I'm sure you would agree. putting in that effort and that hard work to say rather than thinking the grass is always greener and obviously I'm not talking about family dynamics where there is family violence, domestic violence, but where there can be repair, I think, yeah, we do. We need to put the effort in, we need to s seek proper professional help and and and try and find a way forward because I do think there is an obvious benefit for children if they can see, you know, repair between their parents. would you agree?
Erica Komisar,LCSW: I do agree, I do agree, absolutely,
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: in everything you just said.
Gabriella Pomare: W what do you think that repair looks like when children have though witnessed tension, conflict, you know, arguments within the home, emotional shutdown?
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Well, I mean, I think when children see but don't understand, they fill the void with the mysterious void with bad stuff. So a
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: child's fantasy of what's happening is often worse than even reality. Sometimes reality's
Gabriella Pomare: That's true.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: worth, but the the truth is that children don't like mystery at all. And so if you're mysterious about your conflicts or mysterious about divorcing or having trouble, then in a way they fill that void with something even worse, you know. I think being open but not too open. It's like the three little bears fable, you know, Goldilocks and the three little bears. You kind
Gabriella Pomare: Hmm. Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: of want to strike the balance of sharing with them enough so they understand, but not too much so it overwhelms or overshares with them. and so I think, you know, some honesty with children is not not a bad thing. I would say if you if you have not told them, for instance, that you're divorcing, it's better to do it together and to do it when you're absolutely certain and not go back and forth. But if you're
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: having an argument about something, for instance, I don't know, you're arguing about money or you're arguing about family, you know, it's better not to just look infuriated at your spouse and walk around harumphing. It's better to say to your children, you know, you know, mommy and I are just disagreeing about something, but you know, we'll work it through and it will be fine. We're
Gabriella Pomare: No.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: disagreeing about how much time to spend with mommy's family or, you know, we're disagreeing about whether we can do a renovation of the house right now. But but it will be okay because we'll work it through. And so that t says to children, okay, there's no mystery there. We get what mommy
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: and daddy are are it's the understanding and the reassurance. But understanding
Gabriella Pomare: That's interesting, yeah. Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: has to come first. Understanding has to come first. Because when children don't understand why their parents are doing what they're doing, it's it again, it leaves this kind of space like a like a green screen that you project onto.
Gabriella Pomare: That's an interesting concept because we always think, you know, shield children from conflict. Don't don't involve them in adult issues. But I think if you can frame it in a way or in a dynamic that might under you know, make sense in their mind, they probably benefit from that honesty and from that truthfulness. They feel like you're involving them and perhaps as you say, they don't create something then bigger and far worse than their minds. I I do I think I've even learned something from that in my own parenting style. would
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Yeah.
Gabriella Pomare: you Would you say it's, you know, important for children then to see their parents apologize or soften or reconnect after there has been
Erica Komisar,LCSW: yeah.
Gabriella Pomare: conflict in their presence?
Erica Komisar,LCSW: yeah. Yeah. I mean the best way to reconnect is physical affection and show children that you hug each other and show children that you're affectionate. But the other is to s for children to see you apologize. Again, apologies are a funny thing because apologies can be done insincerely. You know, it depends
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: on the tone, it depends on the intention. You can always tell when an apology is real or not,
Gabriella Pomare: That's true.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: you know. but when someone takes responsibility, that's a different thing. So, you know, we always think that an apology is taking responsibility, but not necessarily. Sometimes.
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah. Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: taking responsibility is saying to your spouse, you know, you know, I I did do that. I I'm sorry, but I did I did. You know, if you just say I'm sorry, what are you saying I'm sorry for? You saying I'm sorry that you feel hurt by me? or
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: do you say I'm sorry? You know, I did raise my voice and that wasn't right. And so what they're hearing then, the children are hearing is what are you taking responsibility for that is the beginning of repair? Repair can't happen till you take responsibility. That's that's when repair starts to happen.
Gabriella Pomare: Absolutely. It really is teaching children a valuable lesson and you're taking ownership for what it is that's happened and and that proper repair and and ownership of the responsibility and apologizing. we we speak a lot, I guess, on this podcast as well about families and what creates conflict within the home and pre-divorce. And I think one of the biggest things is work and and tension and and you know, the busyness of everyday life and modern life today. And I know you speak a lot about emotional presence.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Yeah.
Gabriella Pomare: In modern families I suppose, with so many families now often both parents working, stressed, distracted, overwhelmed, what would you say that does to a child's world?
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Well, just what you would imagine. Children need calm, they need presence, they need to be prioritized, they need to feel a priority. Otherwise, they don't feel secure, you know. there are some just essential things that children need, and and I think this myth that children are like self-cleaning ovens. And you can they they raise themselves or you can just hand them over to strangers who will become their family, maybe a babysitter, you know, and not spend time with them. I think in America the average is an hour and a half a day that working parents spend with
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: their children. so you can't raise healthy children spending an hour and a half a day with them. I'll just say that flat out. You're not gonna raise
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: healthy children. They might not show it right away, but eventually they'll show it. You can't raise healthy children if you only spend an hour and a half a day with them. So what does that mean? It means that it means looking at our priorities as as as countries, as modern societies, as families, as individuals, looking at what our priorities are. Again, nobody asks you to have children. You don't have to have children. it's it's not it's not a mandate to have children, right? If you have children, it's because some part of you, well, not everyone, some some people have children by accident, but You know, if you intentionally had children, which is what a lot of people do, most people do, then you're you're bringing someone into this world that's not asking to be brought into this world. You're bringing someone
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: into this world who has irreducible needs. And if those needs are not met, that person is likely not to be mentally healthy and maybe not physically healthy. you know, we talk in the developing world about failure to thrive. Yeah, we talk about.
Gabriella Pomare: Mm, mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: They don't get enough nutrition. all the physical consequences of that. What we don't talk about in modern society is failure to thrive from an emotional perspective. And that's what I write about.
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah. Yeah. No, I I think absolutely. And I think the problem these days is w we're balancing this desire as adults and parents to want to be everywhere and want to do everything. And then our children do, they fall to the side and we forget about that responsibility and our obligation to be emotionally present a and and to raise them in a certain way. And and life is changing so much and there's this huge reliance upon nannies and babysitters and daycare. W what would you say emotional presence really means and really looks like in everyday family life?
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Well, first you can't be emotionally present if you're not physically present enough. So that's you know, that's a myth too. Like I can tr
Gabriella Pomare: That's a good
Erica Komisar,LCSW: I can teleport myself. I'm working in my office, but I'm really emotionally present for my children because I can teleport
Gabriella Pomare: Right.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: my presence to them. It doesn't work like that. the way it works is Yeah.
Gabriella Pomare: I'll FaceTime for five minutes, they'll fill me.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: No, no. The way it works is when your child falls down and bruises themselves, you're there to pick them up. When
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: they you know, got in an argument with their friend in in their toddlers, you're there to help them negotiate that. when they feel sad and lonely, you're there to give them a hug. You know, when they're tired and cranky, you're there to soothe them. That's how it works. Emotional
Gabriella Pomare: Mm-hmm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: presence is no good without physical presence. And this is the problem. That, you know, this myth that was created that you can somehow be emotionally present in a magical way. You know, magical thinking is something children have until they're about
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: I don't know, seven or eight. W when does when is Santa Claus not real anymore? You know, that's when magical thinking of the Easter bunny in Santa Claus, that's when magical thinking Magical thinking is just as it sounds. It's magical.
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah. Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: adults aren't supposed to have magical thinking. We're supposed to have
Gabriella Pomare: Mm, mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: n kind of developed out of that. But the idea that you can be emotionally present and not be physically present enough is magical thinking.
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah, really is a myth. I and
Erica Komisar,LCSW: It is, it is.
Gabriella Pomare: I yeah, yeah, and there's a a lot to learn, I think, and we get so distracted, I mean, as I said, particularly I think with social media and the need to keep up today and you know, in modern families we've got parents working stressed, distracted. What does that really do to a child's emotional world?
Erica Komisar,LCSW: So I mean I want to just address for a second. I do think that I don't want to blame parents. I want to blame society, which has pressured parents and created
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah, I agree.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: unrealistic expectations of lifestyle,
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: of what it means to have comfort. You know, some of the happiest families I've traveled all over the world to to observe how people parent. and I, you know, I interviewed a researcher who specializes in this. But, you know, my my husband's nonprofit, you know, eye doctor and has a foundation called Vision Spring. We travel all over the world. And
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: I am lucky enough to be able to observe, you know, mothers and babies and you know, the reality is that we are not we're not really doing our job because we use the excuse that it's capitalism. And financial. I I'm gonna just interrupt that myth and say some of the happiest families in the world that I've seen are the poorest families. You don't have to have a lot of money
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah. Mm. Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: to have presents. Now, there are really people who are earning fourteen thousand dollars a year in America and you know, and are on welfare and you know. There are really, really poor people who are really struggling.
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: I mean, there are babysitters and housekeepers and daycare workers who leave their own children to care for your children. you know, there are really poor people. But if you're earning, you know, if you're middle class or above to say that you're both working to make ends meet, it it it doesn't quite compute to me. And I think it's become part of our narrative in capitalist societies. That if we're not living at a certain standard, that means we're not thriving.
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: yeah. I mean, so I'm gonna fight that narrative a little and say, yes, there are really poor people. And for that, I fight for things like paid leave and
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: stipends for families in Australia. I've fought a lot for paid leave and stipends. but you know, it the rest of that narrative, I think we have to be a little bit skeptical. I think we have
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: to be a little bit you know, not just. Drink the Kool-Aid about it.
Gabriella Pomare: Mm, mm. It's a perspective shift, I think. It's it's a different way of looking at things and I think we do need to start opening our eyes a lot more to it. Because for me it's an excuse. And look I use it as well. It's you know, I need to pay the bills, you know, my son goes to private school, but that's a choice and a luxury. and the reality is he probably would benefit a great deal more from my presence and and from me being there. as you say, emotionally more than just physically. And yeah, i th there is a lot to take in, I think, as a parent.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Right, right, right. Yeah.
Gabriella Pomare: How d how do you think parents know though when their ambition or stress or business is starting to affect their availability at home?
Erica Komisar,LCSW: I mean, your children are. I always I always say, don't wait for the symptom. You know, if you're asking
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: me what the symptoms are, I can tell you what the symptoms are. But if
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: it's a symptom, it's sort of what I said before: in a marriage, if you're showing signs of symptoms, it means you're already very far into the problem. Like it's already maybe past the point of nowhere. I mean, I'm not saying don't go get help, but if there are already symptoms, it means you miss something along the way. If if that makes
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: sense. Like if you have an infection and you're starting to feel your body feels a little a little prodromal, but you catch it, you know, you get you go to the doctor, you get on antibiotics, it doesn't turn into a worse infection that puts you in the hospital. And so what I'm gonna s I'm gonna give you some symptoms, but I want people to understand that Once it's gotten to the symptoms, it means that you missed all the preventative things. So
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: don't wait for the symptoms is what I'm sort of saying. but the symptoms would be you know, moodiness in children, social withdrawal, sleep issues, eating changes, eating very little,
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: eating too much, any addictive issues, you know, whether it's gambling or video gaming or you know,
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: where they can't stop and they feel obsessive about something. Anxiety, whether they say
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: anxiety and for obvious reasons, depression and suicidal ideation. Nobody wants to think that their children think about killing themselves. But yeah, a lot
Gabriella Pomare: No.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: of kids think about killing themselves. Not all kids try it, but a lot think about
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah. Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: it. So, you know, I mean there's a lot of symptoms, but you really don't want to wait for the symptoms.
Gabriella Pomare: No, I think it it's education like this and it and it is platforms where this has to be a wake up call in itself. It's don't wait for these signs. now is when you need to change your way of doing things.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Right. Right. And and and if you if if you have and you d you missed it, that's okay. You know, you can
Gabriella Pomare: Of course.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: catch them and you can do something about them. But if you start to see symptoms, don't wait, 'cause that's the other thing. Parents, you know, we say in my field, I know it's it's not a joke, but we say denial is more than just a river in Egypt. Okay. Parents can go
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: into denial too. And they can say, well, he's just a little this or he's just a little bad, or you know, his
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: grades dropped. That's another symptom. Maybe, you know, that doesn't, you know, if you see signs and symptoms, go get your child help. Because if there's a symptom, you're already far into it. So go get them a therapist. preferably,
Gabriella Pomare: Hm. Absolutely.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: preferably a psychoanalyst or psychodynamic therapist, play therapist if they're young, talk therapist, feelings
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: therapist. if they're nonverbal, then you can go get a CBT or DBT therapist, but don't rush them to a psychiatrist for pills, because most of them don't
Gabriella Pomare: Nah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: need pills. And don't rush them to a CBT therapist unless they're nonverbal. And can't
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: if if your child has the capacity to talk about feelings, has tried to talk to you about feelings or likes to talk about feelings, take them to someone like me or someone like me, right, who who is going to explore. the feelings they have, not just give them tools. You know, the tools are great and all therapists give tools, but CBT therapists don't really explore the underlying causes. And so yeah,
Gabriella Pomare: There.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: if you can find a psychoanalyst or a psychodynamic, what we call a psychoanalytic or psychodynamic psychotherapist, that's better. But yeah, don't wait. Don't wait. Yeah. Yeah.
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah, that does it it makes a lot of sense. and I know you do. You do a lot of speaking, a lot of writing about adolescent anxiety and, you know, teenage anxiety. How much of that childhood anxiety do you think is linked to the emotional environment that children go up inside?
Erica Komisar,LCSW: I mean, so so here's the real reel. From zero to three, you are their whole world. Well, we hope they're your whole world. If you put them in if you if if if
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah, you do I've learnt a lot from you and and having heard that.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: if you put in daycare, what you've done is so I suppose you could say zero to three, you're supposed to be their whole world. Yes. I mean they have
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: little play dates and they go out and they see people in the playground and you know, i they have their father if there's another Person in this picture. They have their grandparents
Gabriella Pomare: Mm-hmm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: and cousins and aunts and uncles, but really that's their world. And so the most important thing is you as a primary attachment. You're their world from zero to three. If you put them in daycare, now you're exposing them precociously, prematurely to the outside world. The outside world is not supposed to come in till three. At three, they start to become exposed to the outside world, but in little increments where when they come home, It's like they go out, experience things, they come home, you're there, and then you help them to metabolize them and process them, right? Their feelings, their thoughts, their experiences, you know. but if you are not there, there's no one to process what's happening. But as they go along, they start to have their own world. When they go to primary school, they start to have friends and it becomes their own world. By the time they get to middle school and high school, they're developing their whole world. And so if they have social issues, for instance, in primary school, or they're teased and bullied in middle school, or they're exposed to drugs, or you know, there's some kind of abuse, it that's all they're that's all affecting them, right? Social media
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: is obvious, technology, if you expose them to that too early. I I I'm I am absolutely on board with Jonathan Haidt that children
Gabriella Pomare: Yes.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: should not have smartphones, not just social media. No smartphones until 16. Why sh why
Gabriella Pomare: Mm. Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: would anybody give their child a s a $1,200 phone before
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: the age of 16? Would you buy your child a $1,200 anything before the age of
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: six? Would they be responsible enough to have a $12? So and then take away the idea that smartphones are very bad for children. It's too
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: much information, it's too much stimulation, and there's access to social media. So give them a flip phone.
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Give them a flip phone so they
Gabriella Pomare: Yep.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: can call you from the bus and say, I'm running late. Hold dinner for me. Or, you know, or mom, come pick me up at this party. You can do that with a smartphone. I mean, with a with a flip phone. So
Gabriella Pomare: Flip phone.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: yeah, so the idea that technology is another kind of I I I say that children are exposed to stressors and adversity. I would say that
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: technology is just another adversity. It's not like the main cause of the mental health crisis. I don't agree with Jonathan about that. I think it's a piece
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: of a puzzle. and and so, you know, yes, you want to be careful of controlling what you can control. and then there's a lot that they're going to be exposed to that you can't control, including the friends they make.
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: And so, yeah, so the larger their world gets, the less control you have. And why am I saying this? Because you try to be there as much as possible in the years that. you have the most influence to instill in them values, beliefs, a feeling of security and love, like filling the storeroom with food that that that will carry them through their childhood. So when they're exposed to technology or teasing and bullying or people running around saying the world is ending, you know, they can resist
Gabriella Pomare: Mm. I agree.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: You can't resist if your storeroom isn't full, if your belly isn't
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: full, so to speak, metaphorically, if you're not filled up with all of those things like love and security in your parents' presence, you're you're sending your children into adolescence and adulthood with a deficit. Fragile. Yeah.
Gabriella Pomare: Hmm. Absolutely. How do parents though, you know, build resilience in children without just expecting them to, you know, tolerate adult stress and understand conflict in a way adults would?
Erica Komisar,LCSW: The foundation for resilience is presence and that there's just no two ways about it. If you didn't get to it early enough, get to it now.
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: It's it's never too late to get to it until your children don't want to talk to you, or move away. And so I would say, yeah, I would say presence is the antidote to disconnection and
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: and yeah, and so it's never too
Gabriella Pomare: And I guess emotional safety too.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: it's it's it again. you being there to help them metab. I mean, I suppose you could say it's like children are missing an enzyme.
Gabriella Pomare: No.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: They can't metabolize their feelings and experiences well. When they're
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: little, they can't metabolize them at all. Zero to three,
Gabriella Pomare: No.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: you're not there. You're not helping them to metabolize what they're feeling. You're not regulating their emotions, which is what you're supposed to do. So
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: and as they get older, they they're just not very good at it. You know, their prefrontal cortex isn't developed. It's the part that doesn't develop till like 27. And you know, they're just not very good
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: at it. And so they still really need you when when they're around, they need to know that they can come to you and for you to help them metabolize those feelings and thoughts and experiences and help them understand the world. If you're not there, they're kind of on their own. And that's the problem. Yeah. They're they're kind of on their own.
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's that vulnerability I think we forget about and parents don't realise that they are responsible for. How would you say sorry, yeah, go.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: I mean I I'm gonna say that I it's not blaming parents. I think parents are fragile today because they've been raised in environments. Remember, this is gen three generations in, we are now. So I think
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: the people who are having children now have been raised by parents who were not that present, to be perfectly frank,
Gabriella Pomare: Mm. Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: and not that sensitive and not that empathic. And so Yeah, I would say that that the fragility of the parents that I treat is passed down to the children. and so that's really the problem is that, you know, it's not blaming the parents, it's understanding that they are in a generational chain of being
Gabriella Pomare: Hmm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: told that, you know, what matters is you, take care of your needs, don't worry about the children, they'll be fine. You can do any old thing with children and they'll be fine, you know. And and that is that's generational trauma. And I'm seeing a lot of the parents that I treat have been neglected. And so it
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: it's sort of generational trauma is as I would describe it.
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah, I see a lot of that in my work too. And I know a lot of the psychotherapists that I work with or refer families to. I was speaking one to one today and what he said was interesting, he's often having to tell parents that before I can help you help your children, I need you to
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Yeah.
Gabriella Pomare: go and get therapy for yourself. And that's not him being generous and being kind saying, get it. He genuinely meant
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Yeah.
Gabriella Pomare: they need to work on themselves because of how they were raised, the trauma that they're still triggered by because of, you know, how they were parented. And then that's being instilled obviously in the way that they now parent today.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Yep. That's right.
Gabriella Pomare: How do you think that parents today can create a home where children do feel secure even when there's, you know, you know, the parents themselves are going through hard seasons and difficulties?
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Well, I mean, you know, marriage is just not easy. It's not supposed to be easy. It's
Gabriella Pomare: Nah. Mm-hmm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: it's like climbing a mountain to reach a beautiful view. But
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: No one ever said that climbing that mountain is going to be easy, either going up or going down. Marriage is hard work
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: and it requires really good conflict resolution skills. It requires really healthy emotional communication skills. it re it requires all the right brain functioning. For marriages to work, you both have to be right brain to right brain. You know, we say when a mother breastfeeds a baby and And you know, cradles on the left side and looks at the baby, it's right brain to baby, right brain connection. Marriage is
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: supposed to be right brain to right brain connection. That means that all the things that you learned, well, we used to say kindergarten. I don't know if in Australia they call it kindergarten, but all the things there was a book called Everything I Learned in Kindergarten was every everything
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: I knew to know. So what do you learn in kindergarten? You learn To take turns, you learn to share, you learn to wait, you learn to compromise, you learn conflict resolution, all of
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: the, you know, you learn emotional regulation. all of those things are necessary for a good marriage. And so that should be something you look for before you choose a partner. Not marry someone and hope that it they're that way after or think you can change them. No. Don't marry someone unless they are right brain enough that you can connect on that level, you know. It it it might be that they're right brain but they need some development with the right brain. Well, that's they can go get therapy and they can become, you know, it's not like you know, you
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: just write people off. But don't marry someone unless there's enough of their right brain that they can connect. Otherwise they can't resolve conflicts. Otherwise they become
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: binary thinking, inflexible. are emotionally dysregulated, all the things that mean that their right brain isn't developed. And what I'm seeing is that more adults are emotionally dysregulated. More adults don't
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: have the skills, the social emotional skills, because of their own neglect, because their parents
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: were very self-focused or, you know, expected too much of them too early. That they the parts of their there was no presence, so there's no There's not really right brain development. And so that's what I see in marriages. It's interesting. look for someone who's
Gabriella Pomare: No, I'm fascinated by this.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: right brain to right brain connection. Now you can have men
Gabriella Pomare: Do them
Erica Komisar,LCSW: and women are allowed to be different, by the way. Men and women
Gabriella Pomare: All right.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: can be different. You know, it's it's we're we are different.
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: but you still need, whether you're a man or a woman, what you get from your mother, if your mother is healthy, and I give that a caveat. If your mother is emotionally healthy. What you get is the presence, but you also get all of that right brain development. Your mother
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: or primary attachment figure teaches you how to wait, teaches you how to cope with frustration, teaches you how to share, teaches you, you know, how to regulate those feelings by soothing you from moment to moment when you're in distress, teaches you all those things. That's the foundation of a personality that then
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: leads to an adult. Who can be in a healthy marriage if they make a healthy choice?
Gabriella Pomare: I agree with that. Yeah, absolutely. I guess
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Yeah. Yeah.
Gabriella Pomare: then you would agree maybe with the statement that it's less important for children maybe to see perfect love 'cause I don't think that really does exist, still perfect marriages,
Erica Komisar,LCSW: It doesn't.
Gabriella Pomare: but more important to see healthy repair and the ability to ongoingly repair.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Absolutely. Yeah. Conflict is part of an intimate relationship. If you're not having conflict, it's a problem, I would say. Because marriage isn't about marrying someone exactly like you. It's one individual choosing another individual to spend the rest of your life with. but you're still individuals, even if you're a whole, even if you're a family, you still remain individuals. You have individual desires, individual tastes. individual fears, individual feelings. and so all of those things mean that you're not going to always agree. sometimes
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: by disagreeing, you then come to compromise if it's done in a healthy way. But the idea that marriage is about, you know, hopefully not constantly being in conflict, because that probably means you chose the wrong person. But
Gabriella Pomare: No.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: you know, dealing with some conflict and then resolving it and as you say, you're calling it repair. You have to resolve and then repair. Yeah.
Gabriella Pomare: Mm, and I guess sometimes I often hear that there's an important need to reconnect before you can even repair.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Well, the old adage was never go to bed angry. And I think actually
Gabriella Pomare: That's right.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: there's a reason for that. That was an old kind of wisdom, you know, an old adage
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: that helped people, you know, if you asked like a person who's now a hundred years old, what would be the best
Gabriella Pomare: Mm-hmm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: advice? That would be that would have been the advice they gave, which is never go never go to bed angry.
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah. It's one that still resonates today.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: it still resonates. And what it really implied was that. If you have conflicts that you leave unresolved and you sleep on them, they don't go away, they submerge. That's
Gabriella Pomare: Hm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: different than going away. they settle into your nervous system in a way that will come out later with a vengeance. And
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: so, but if you resolve those conflicts before you go to bed and then go to sleep, then you wake up in the morning and you have another opportunity, right? Because that sleep gives you a respite. But if you don't resolve them, they don't go away. They,
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: you know, and it isn't a guarantee, even if you resolve them, that the next day there isn't still feelings about it, but it's the beginning of a process. But if you go to bed and are still angry at one another, it can submerge, and that's a very dangerous thing. repression is a very dangerous thing for a marriage.
Gabriella Pomare: Is that then what leads to perhaps contempt, resentment?
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Absolutely.
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah, I often say, you know, that is what I think leads to a lot of the divorces as well. People don't come to see me after one big fight. It's the years of the small moments, it's the going to bed, I guess, without the repair or the results and and then the resentment comes out. And I think as soon as you resent your partner, there's a lack of respect, there's the contempt there, it's very hard to get out of that pattern.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Right. So, you know, it's it's fair to say that to regulate people's emotions, sometimes they take a break from conflict. So they'll be in a conflict and they'll take a break, you know, like I need a little break. But they have to come back because
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: turning away from conflict is manipulative. Whoever walks out of the room in a conflict is manipulated, is taking control.
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Away from you. Right? So, I mean, unless like there's breaking of furniture or something terrible, which we hope doesn't
Gabriella Pomare: Sure.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: happen, then you don't leave the room. It's like, it's like a toddler who's tantruming. You don't leave them. You don't send them off to the room. You stay with them. You know, in
Gabriella Pomare: That's right.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: that moment they're having it's an emotional blown fuse. It's a it's an epileptic seizure of sorts emotionally. Don't leave them. In that case, you don't leave your partner when they're really upset either and they shouldn't leave you. So the f the
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: person who walks out of the room is manipulating the situation to take control away from you. And that's not going to resolve the conflict. That's going to exacerbate it.
Gabriella Pomare: Hm. No. It's there is there is a lot to take in and learn from, I think. and and we're going to only keep learning, I suppose.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Yeah.
Gabriella Pomare: you know, even in adulthood you do, you keep learning and through relationships. And I guess
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Keep learning.
Gabriella Pomare: you always do, and the more conversations I have with people
Erica Komisar,LCSW: So you die, till there's no sign of life, yeah.
Gabriella Pomare: that's it. And if hopefully then we pass that on to our children, right? And I guess that
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Yes, that's right.
Gabriella Pomare: That really does lead me to my my final question. I try to ask everyone this, you know, through the lens of before it breaks, what do you wish that parents noticed earlier inside their relationships before the children then begin carrying it?
Erica Komisar,LCSW: I suppose I wish that parents could understand whether parenting together is right for them. And I think most people that get married don't really talk about things like how do you want to parent and parenting styles and do you believe in sleep training terrible for children? Or do you believe
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: in daycare terrible for child? You know, like It's good to know who you're marrying. And yet these questions
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: feel off limits or denial. Again, ooh, I'm so attracted. Our sex is so good. He's so aggressive, or she's so hot, or whatever. I don't know. You know, or you know, I have so much fun with them. That
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: doesn't mean they're gonna be a good husband, wife, father, or mother. When you marry someone, you're not just marrying a a s a sex symbol. You're marrying someone who or someone you have fun with. I mean, that's that's great, you know. You're marrying a potential future father to your children or mother to your children. You're marrying
Gabriella Pomare: Mm-hmm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: a future husband or a wife. And do they have that potential? I don't think people dig. They're very it's very superficial when they choose their marital partners. And they can be together for years, six, seven years. Sometimes I have couples. And they'll say, but once we had the baby, I'm like, but didn't you see how the person dealt with stress? Because having a baby is very stressful, very joyful,
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: but very stressful. And you have to have a good constitution, right? It's like running a 10K. I won't say it's running
Gabriella Pomare: Mm-hmm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: a marathon, maybe it's running a 10K. but you know, haven't you seen the person under stress? How do they cope with stress? How do they cope with sleeplessness?
Gabriella Pomare: Okay.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: What do they think about discipline versus loving and sensitive empathy? These are questions you should ask someone before you marry them. And you know, I'm gonna say, even if it's a second marriage, ask them things like, you know, how do you what do you think you're gonna do with my kids? Do you feel that you discipline them or you stay out of it? You know, how
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: do you care for your own children? You know, what would we do in these situations? Just don't ask questions. I find
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: the lack of curiosity in people being
Gabriella Pomare: Well, you y you jump into things and then that is when the issues come and I think and you made a really good point there, in second marriages or relationships, particularly when there are children, I think there is that obligation to ask those questions because if you don't have the either those boundaries or those rules or just that understanding of you know, what's going to happen, that is when the difficulties are going to arise because you didn't ask enough questions and you weren't informed. And these are big decisions we're making. I mean, a marriage, a partnership Then having children, they are huge lifelong decisions. And if you're not properly informed, I think that is yeah, as I said, the beginning of the end, really.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: I mean, you're not gonna get everything out of someone preventatively, because some people
Gabriella Pomare: No.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: have children and then either have very positive or very negative reactions, right? You can either have a joyful something. blossoms and blooms inside of you and you just love it and you don't want to go back to work and you just you want to be with the baby all at maternal preoccupation. Or a father
Gabriella Pomare: Yes.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: who's just like, I want to protect and provide. I love my family. I love my wife. You can have these wonderful both men and women can get postpartum depression, which is that they have a negative reaction to having a baby. This baby
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: stealing my independence. This baby is A parasite that needs me all the time. This baby's taking away my sleep and my free time and and my money. And you know, it's really like pathological, but it happens and it happens more
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: than you know, which is that unconsciously parents feel resentful to have this person who needs them so greatly. If they didn't have the kind of relationship with their mothers where they could be fully and lovingly dependent. And that's the problem. and so you sometimes you don't know. It's like Alice in Wonderland where it said, Open this door, open this, eat
Gabriella Pomare: Yeah.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: this, you know. So y you just don't know which door might get open because some of it's very repressed. So, you know, and you can
Gabriella Pomare: Mm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: figure out some of it by exploring your childhood with a therapist and understanding what kind of parents your parents were, what kind of mother your mother was, to understand
Gabriella Pomare: Hmm. Hmm.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: how you might feel, what kind of father your father was, to understand if your father was critical and abusive and called your his wife names and you know, then you're pretty sure that that's somewhere, not genetically in you, but inheritance of acquired of acquired characteristics, you might need to work on that. Because when the stress of the baby comes, again, a negative door can get open. So, you know, it's not as if it's you can't prevent everything, but I'm big on prevention. When you can.
Gabriella Pomare: Hm. No, I I I agree and I genuinely believe that.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Yeah.
Gabriella Pomare: well thank you. I mean, I think there is so much to take away and that, you know, I I myself have learnt from this conversation. And as I said, you don't stop learning. And there's a lot to go away and think about now in my own parenting, in my own motherhood journey, and no doubt everyone else listening as well. So I am very grateful for your time today, and for everything
Erica Komisar,LCSW: I'm so glad.
Gabriella Pomare: that we've been able to chat about. so thank you.
Erica Komisar,LCSW: Thank you for having me.
Gabriella Pomare: Absolutely. That conversation with Erica resonated with me so much. And what I keep coming back to is this idea that children don't live outside the relationship between their parents. They live inside it. They feel the tone and the distance and the silence. They feel the resentment, even when no one says the words out loud. And I think that that's such an important reminder for parents because so often we tell ourselves that children are fine. As long as we're not openly arguing or as long as we're keeping everything functioning on the surface. But children are so incredibly sensitive to the emotional weather of the home. They know when the warmth has disappeared, they know when one parent is carrying too much, they know when repair's not happening. They know when the home has stopped feeling safe, even if no one's explained why. So look, this episode is not about blaming parents. I mean, parenting, marriage, work, stress, resentment, modern family life is hard. Most parents are doing the best they can with the tools and the histories and the pressures they have. But it is a reminder that protecting children is not only about what we say to them. It's about what we model around them, how we repair, how we speak, how we handle conflict, how we apologize. How we make room for their feelings, and how we show them what love and safety and emotional responsibility looks like. Because children learn relationships long before they've ever had one of their own. They learn what closeness feels like and what silence means, and they learn whether conflict can be repaired. They learn whether love is steady, conditional, frightening, distant, or safe. And maybe the work for parents then is not to create a perfect home, because none of us can do that. Maybe the work is to create a home where children don't have to carry what adults refuse to face. A home where repair matters, where emotional safety matters, where the relationship between the adults is not treated as separate from the well-being of the child. Because before a family breaks, children feel the shift. And sometimes the greatest gift we can give them is to notice it earlier, to repair sooner, to soften when we've become defended, to stop, and to ask what they might be absorbing, and to remember that the emotional life of the home becomes part of the emotional life of the child. So thank you to Erica for reminding us how much children feel, how much they need, and how impressive. It is to protect not only the structure of the family, but the emotional world inside it before it breaks.