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Hello and welcome back to the Adventures in Advising Podcast.
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This is Matt Markin along with Ryan Shuckel and Ryan, it's it's been a while since we've had an episode with both of us.
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Yeah, you know, I'll I'll say this.
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Um I've really appreciated uh Brody and Kevin sort of keeping the energy going in the podcast sphere and stuff and the other episodes that have come out, but I've I've felt like an outsider looking in um a little bit.
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You know, it's it's uh it's always good to take a break, and certainly summer and uh orientation uh season can be demanding, but uh I'm glad to get back at it.
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And it was nice to hear the the song uh on the recording on the way in, just just a common, uh comfortable, recognizable tune again, and uh I'm glad to glad that we're back at it.
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Yeah, well, and then also the fact that it's been since episode 185 that we've been on together on an episode.
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Uh these last few episodes have been either you, myself, guest hosts.
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So good to be back.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And as we're winding down to episode 200, we're kind of talking about like, well, what are we who are we having on?
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What topics are we gonna discuss as we get towards the end?
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And it was like, well, let's talk about something that we both like.
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I mean, of course we like academic advising and higher ed, but can we bring something else into that, I guess, realm?
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And one of the things we we've done in terms of presentations over the years, whether it's you doing your thing, me doing mine, us doing a few things together, has been incorporating pop culture.
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And last year we were at the Vegas conference and we did a poster session uh with the topic of imposter syndrome and comic book characters.
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And we thought, well, why don't we talk about comic books on this particular episode and have a little fun with it?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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You know, I I know it's been uh percolating.
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Um, it's hard for these interests and and passions and loves um to not seep into uh how we express ourselves and and how we interact with the the world and these ideas and concepts surrounding academic advising and and higher education.
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But um, so I know some of our uh listeners and viewers are aware of this um just through the just through the podcast, not through other ways of having interacted with us uh in uh in other capacities.
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But the idea that one of the ways we can understand our world, uh the work that we do and how we fit into it is through the lens of narrative, um, is is certainly um well it's I think something that both you and I have come to feel comfortable with.
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Um it's uh maybe it took a little bit uh justification that it was a legitimate framework through which to uh examine and and build lines of inquiry.
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Um but as we as we talk today and what might be a little bit of a ripoff of a just us uh episode, um, hopefully there's not a copyright on that.
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Um, but you know, we'll we'll talk through all the different ways that um comic book characters and pop culture have informed not only maybe like our personal lives, but also our approach to our professional lives too.
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Yeah, and if anyone's listening, it's like, is this really legit?
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It is like there you can go and find scholarly articles on this.
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Yeah.
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You know, from I mean, when we've researched it, I mean we found various articles where they're taking um some sort of theory or approach and connecting that to like a movie, for example, like uh Benjamin uh not the full title, but the Benjamin Button movie.
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Curious case of Benjamin Button.
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There we go.
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Um and there was also one on American History X, uh, the British Avengers show.
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Um, and then we could also tie, of course, tie all that in with uh Peter Hagen's work as well.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And you know, um as Matt and I were talking about when and how um we progressed toward episode 200 and which topics um are really salient and important, um, you know, just in a timeliness sense, it also felt appropriate uh with Peter's passing and um just to recognize how important his work in legitimizing humanities-based perspectives, um, but also uh just tapping into um the kind of cultural uh power that narrative has.
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Um we tell stories uh so much, whether they're you know based on our own lives or uh our our sort of the culture of our institutions, these ideas that higher education or learning is a human endeavor of value and importance.
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Um we're usually building those discussions in a narrative sense.
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Um let you know, let me tell you about this and let me explain that, and here's where this comes from.
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And um, and it's it's not a it's not too large of a leap uh to say that other stories can uh inform the way we understand uh the things that we might do in reality uh compared to those other fictional places as well, too.
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And Peter was a previous guest on the podcast way, way, way back uh in in the early goings of it.
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And you know, we got to talk with him about narrative and um just having him on.
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Um I'm glad that we were able to get him on as a guest, and his knowledge is there for anyone to go back and listen to.
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When did you first meet Peter?
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So I you know, my story uh as far as in academic advising and my career interest is somewhere around 2013.
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Um, my supervisor at the time was uh the um director of the School of Art at TechStech University, and Lydia asked me, you know, like sort of what do you see your future in this organization looking like?
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Um, and you know, and that was also a point in my own life where I was like, what do I really want to do in advising?
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Um it was a sort of a culmination of things, but I had attended annual conferences, regional conferences, state conferences, um, sort of spotty, uh maybe dependent on my availability or funding availability.
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Um, and I started to realize that how I wanted to contribute in the field of academic advising um was maybe a little bit more than a consumer of the scholarship or the discourse.
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So somewhere around 2013, 2014, I was like, I'm I'm gonna actually conference when I go to conferences.
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I'm gonna talk to people, I'm gonna really engage, I'm I'm not just going to float through and say, here's some interesting ideas I picked up.
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Um and so I it was uh I think the 2014 annual conference.
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I decided to go to the business meeting and to advising community meetings.
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And uh Peter was at the very first theory philosophy and history of advising community meeting I had ever attended.
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Um, and then the next year uh I attended a presentation where he was exploring these ideas of narrative structure and sort of in a sort of continua sense, like there's this side of the idea and there's this side, and he was outlining in his presentation sort of the range of the narrative arcs of what is the purpose of higher education and how does somebody interact with their learning, and then he take he took both of those continua and made them an axis.
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And I honestly hadn't I'm sure there are people who I had been in sessions where they were really being innovative about the way they thought about our work, um, and they weren't just saying, here's what we do on our campus.
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But I was at the time sort of live tweeting my conference experience, and I was like, that just blows my mind that someone's thinking about academic advising in that kind of um creative, innovative, um, really inventive um approach.
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Uh and I was like, I want to do that more, I want to be around that more.
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So um that was you know pretty uh pretty long time ago.
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And one of my joys of uh my time with Nikada and the theory, philosophy, and history of advising community is that a lot of that time was spent around Peter, um whether in formal presentation spaces or informal conversations, you know, in the afternoon in the evenings after conference and stuff, um uh there was a kind of generosity and um friendliness um that everybody was um all in the same space and in and all um equal participants.
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That was just a hallmark of my experience with Peter for sure.
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Yeah.
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Um I first knew of Peter, I think when he was he keynoted was it the Phoenix conference?
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Right, yeah, maybe it was Phoenix then, yes.
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Yeah.
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Both in the desert.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Yeah, and I mean, and I think around that time, I think is when when the book came out, too.
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And I think right after that, I was just so inspired.
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I'm like, let me go buy the book.
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And I feel that many of the presentations that that I've done since then and the ones that we've done together, we've had Peter quoted in there um from his book.
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I I know like recent ones, you know, for sure, have been in the Imposter Syndrome with comic book characters that we did last year in Vegas.
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Um we did it from the Umbrella Academy one we did a few years back, which I think was Cincinnati.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Uh some of the other ones I've done with some other folks have been with uh like Star Trek and Star Wars and uh Pro Wrestling, and you know, now with this one, and you've done a few also um solo with with pop culture that I swear you you've had uh Peter quoted in there.
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Yeah, certainly.
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I the first thing I did um in with pop culture was just a wild swing.
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You know, I didn't know what I was doing, but I was I was capturing um like an existing spirit of narrative um in the way that the book uh um academic advising approaches, which just came out in 2013, um, and the way the editors and the contributors of that book sort of were building a story of how theory has informed our practice through advising approaches.
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Um, the titles of the chapters and the sections felt like Star Wars titles, um, um different trilogies and and uh sort of the Roman numeral side of things.
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And and so I just slapped a Star Wars clip on front of each chapter and just presented that in Las Vegas in 2015.
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Um, but um over the the years I have borrowed that sort of legitimacy and um uh I guess the permission that Peter gave everybody to say if you have a story that really resonates, bring it into the space, whether it's the practical space with students or this the scholarly space uh in a presentation or an article.
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Um and one of the ones I feel like was taking it to the maximum was a presentation I've given called Time Traveling Cyborg Wizards, uh, where I found these things about being an advisor that feel sort of like fictional characters, like people don't really understand us, don't really know what it's like.
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Um they think the things that we do are magical and mystical, and um that we are sometimes tied to machines, and um, but uh I borrowed um the themes of popular culture references of wizards and cyborgs and time travelers to just talk about the experience of being an advisor.
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Um, and it was I would say approaching too many pop culture references.
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There's never it's never too many.
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Uh it was hard to fit it all into an hour.
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I'll say yeah, maybe for a presentation.
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So just to randomly talk about it.
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Yeah, that's yeah, and then as kind of going back with uh Peter and we're talking about like different books, but um the main one, at least for me, has been the power of story book uh that that he wrote.
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And you know, and then of course he's arguing that you know stories provide structure and coherence to those events, processes, and and motivations that may lack in viable interpretation.
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So kind of what we've been talking about already.
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But um, you know, I I like that he has that that he was using that humanities-informed practice, um, because it's like we're trying to understand um each other and how this all kind of ties into that adult learning and human resource development and and various other fields connected with uh academic advising.
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And so it's almost like that book has been the gift that keeps on giving, um, you know, not just to the field, not just to the presentations, but I mean also many of us individually on how we grow um as professionals.
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Yeah, one of the things I've really enjoyed over the years is being a part of the e Ninakata e-tutorial facilitation group.
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And um I was also part of a uh work group that sort of rewrote the theory and practice e-tutorial.
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Um, and uh, you know, I as facilitator of that um e-tutorial now more than seven or eight times, um it is remarkable how so many participants um will choose narrative theory for one of the assignments where they get to do a case study.
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You know, like there's a whole world of theory for them to select from.
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When taking an example from their own practice as advisors and meshing it with a theoretical framework, um, but the vast majority are drawn to the narrative theory reading, um, and they use it in the discussion of their case study far more than the other theoretical frameworks through which we can understand academic advising.
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And so there's uh anecdotal evidence that it's it's not just that uh Peter's work gave everyone permission to value how significant story can be and how much narrative can inform our practice, but that as human beings we're drawn to that perhaps first, foremost, um, more than any other way that we might understand what's happening in our world, um, a good story is what connects with us for sure.
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And I think that's a great transition.
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You know, good story connects with us.
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Where did this all start for us?
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You know, maybe in terms of comic books, uh can you do you have like your first memory of a comic book that you read or how that ended up working out or turned into this?
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As a parent myself, I've I've often thought about you know, like my earliest childhood memories.
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Um, you know, my parents divorced when I was two and my mom remarried when I was four.
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And so the home that I remember growing up in um was you know a sort of a blended home.
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Um, but there were always picture books.
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Uh and you know, if there is one thing that my parents did well, um, besides, you know, making sure that we felt loved and provided for and safe, it was that we had a wealth of pages to turn through.
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Um, my stepdad in particular um was uh a big proponent of the uh World Book Encyclopedia uh brand.
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Uh we had all just in the living room, uh under the television were all the encyclopedias.
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Um but I had a bookshelf uh in my room growing up, and I had tons of books.
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Um, so much so that I'm sure one of the biggest things my parents uh tried to instill in me is the value of putting your books back uh where they belong, not leaving them on the floor and stuff.
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Um, but uh Saturdays, uh my dad had visitation.
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Uh he would pick my sister and I up, and it's usually a pretty full day.
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We'd usually do fun stuff, uh I guess defined by uh various perspectives.
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Sometimes we'd be on the golf course with my dad, which I know was fun for him, and we were outdoors and it was good.
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Sometimes we'd visit uh my grandparents at their ranch.
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Uh um, but sometimes we like we'd go to the mall or we'd you know go see a movie or you know, whatever.
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We usually have dinner at some point in that timeline, and then it was the sort of wrapping up period.
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And sometimes what we would do is we'd go to a donut shop that was connected to a convenience store gas station, and you know, we'd just get a little treat, a little donut before we go, or something like that.
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But that uh convenience store, that gas station had like a comic book rack, and I could be in the donut shop side and I could like just see uh just across the threshold a whole rack of comic books, and you know, some of my first memories of comic books is after a great, wonderful, fun day with family wrapping up with a little treat and then grabbing a quick comic book.
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And and I was drawn to Silver Surfer, I'm wearing the shirt today.
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Um that was one of the first comic book characters I specifically remember being interested in.
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Um, and some of those early Silver Surfer comics weren't meant for kids, I would say.
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Um a lot more philosophical um than some of the other stuff that was out there, but uh, but definitely some of the earliest comic books I remember like the covers falling off of and trying to figure out how to tape them back on to stuff were my Silver Surfer comics.
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And what year was this?
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I mean, look, I was born in 76.
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I'm gonna guess this was early 80s.
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Yeah.
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How about you?
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Uh yes, I was born in the 80s, uh, so not too long after you.
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But mine was probably the 1990s, um, or as the kids say nowadays, the late 1900s.
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But I remember my brother had classic Spider-Man number seven that was introducing the lizard um character.
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And classic Spider-Man, they were essentially reprinting the old 60s um issues from when it came out.
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And I just remember reading it and just being like, this is amazing.
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It's Spider-Man.
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I always knew who Spider-Man was.
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But to read the comic, see the artwork, getting the understand the storytelling was like now.
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I want to read more.
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So from that, anytime we would be on vacation or we go to the mall, I'd always want to make sure I could go somewhere that had a comic rack and then just buy random issues of Spider-Man or whatever was there.
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And um, I just remember there was one time um we were in Hawaii and I was, you know, however old I was very young.
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And it's like, yeah, look, there's the beach, there's you know, uh amazing views, there's diamond head, and I don't only cared about wanting to go somewhere to say to get a comic book.
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I remember also going to like Walden bookstores.
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I don't know if you remember that, and no longer in business, I don't think, but that's where I got a lot of my comic books.
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I kind of grew up first with Marvel and then got into DC when I started reading um Batman and Green Lantern.
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My mom would also um take me to like Costco or Sam's Club, and I can't remember which one it was, but they would sell for like$9.99, and it was maybe like 10 to 20 comic books, like individual uh issues that that did not go together, by the way.
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So I would be reading issues that maybe was part one of three or part two of three or part three of three, and it was like the conclusion.
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So I'd either jump in not knowing what happened, the previous two episodes uh issues, and then trying to understand what's going on now, and like, oh, now that story arc is over, or starting out reading part one and not knowing what happens afterwards.
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So that also I think is where my imagination started going, like what happened next?
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Here's all the different avenues it could have gone, or how do we get to this point?
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And like my mind would just kind of go into overdrive.
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Um, but I remember uh as a kid like just having a stack of those individual issues, and I couldn't wait to get home, finish my homework, and then go back, even though I've read those issues multiple times, I just kept going back to those issues and just going diving back into those those different realities, those different worlds.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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That's um I you when you're at the comic book rack at a convenience store, don't a convenience store, a gas station, that's not like it's the full collection, you know, issue one to whatever.
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And so it was just like what when what looked coolest?
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Um, you know, what had the best cover or the uh the artwork inside that really grabbed you?
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And um, you know, when I could go to the mall and the the Walden books um there, it was just outside the target.
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Um, you know, they would have sometimes those entire big collections, but those were usually outside my price range, you know, as a as a kid who got a five.
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Dollar a week allowance, you know, even in 1980s money that didn't go super far when it was like a you know$15 book or something like that.
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Um, the first time I ever saved money uh was to buy a big uh Marvel Comics compendium.
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Uh it was hard back, and I was like, it's gonna last forever.
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Um, and I'm sure my parents were a little bit chagrined that what got me motivated to save were uh the funny pages.
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And you know, speaking of the funny pages, you know, it was uh an era where we got newspapers, and it was not uncommon to flip through the the comics on the the the Sunday or Saturday papers.
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Um it was also for me the era of like after school cartoons and Saturday morning cartoons, and a lot of the heroes um of the era were um you know presented on televisions.
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I mean, it was marketing for toys.
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Um, but you know, that's that was the sort of cultural milieu that I grew up in, where it was like crazy fantastic stories just thrown at you, blasted at you at full volume all the time.
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And um, you couldn't always be around the TV, but you could take your comics with you.
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And there are a lot of road trips and family vacations where you know I was trying to figure out which ones do I take so I can read them over and over on the drive to you know Minnesota or Tennessee or Florida one time.
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I mean uh you know, those books um in their various formats and structures uh really were companions at times too growing up, you know, that um I had always had access to those worlds and to those characters, but um, somewhere in the middle school years, I shifted a little bit into those indie uh titles and away from the mainline Marvel and DC stuff.
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Um, some folks out there might be familiar with the work of Wendy and Richard Penny, P I and I.
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Um, they did a big long epic comic called Elf Quest.
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Um, and I have all of those collected editions from um the 80s.
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Uh and then there was a brief moment in uh the late 80s where in our mall there was kind of a um I don't know if it was just role-playing and sort of indie comics, but there was a little bit of uh manga and um you know small print runs.
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:30.559
And uh and I remember reading comics where like I stopped thinking about them as just entertainment and maybe a little bit more of I don't know, like they were trying to teach me something.
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:44.480
They were trying to not just um have a little bit of fun for 22 pages or for 30 minutes on the TV, but trying to send a message to the readers and and trying to uh tackle bigger concepts or um maybe more human uh realities.
00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:56.240
And and I was wondering, Matt, do you remember a time when your engagement with comic books stopped being about the fun and the entertainment value and started being a little bit more than that?
00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:59.440
Yeah, probably not into my college years.
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:05.759
Um, I do want to just mention, because you were talking about money um and not being able to like, oh, this out of my price range.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:31.440
Like I would go with my mom every Sunday to the grocery store just so I can get to the aisle for the comics and then read the comics as I'm pushing the cart and then put the comic book back, and knowing like yeah, I probably should have paid for that, but I got I I got to read a fun story, and that's kind of how I got into uh a lot of it with Green Lantern.
00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:48.640
But I would save money and I'd I remember of all places we were vacation in London, and that's where I bought the trade for Batman Nightfall and uh DC's uh crisis, uh zero hour crisis in time.
00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:52.880
Um and I've mentioned Hawaii and London, it's like, oh Matt would travel everywhere.
00:25:53.119 --> 00:26:01.519
That was as a kid, and then there was many years where it was like no more of those trips because those cost way too much.
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:13.759
But yeah, there was a stretch of time, maybe when I got to middle school through high school, that I was wasn't really reading uh comic books um or buying any new ones, and it was just continuously rereading the old ones that I had.
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:35.359
But I think when I got to college, it probably was my junior and senior year, where I kind of went through like more of like identity and belonging and what's the meaning of life, and somehow I'm like maybe I can find some of that in these stories in comic books.
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:49.599
And you know, so I started just buying trades of um, I remember a lot of it was like DC trades of Teen Titans and and also the uh it was like the outsiders.
00:26:49.759 --> 00:27:05.039
A uh Nightwing was um who, if you don't know, he's is Dick Grayson, he used to be the original Robin, but then he started um leading a new team, and um uh they had an outsiders trade.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:10.160
And I'm reading some of these stories, and I'm getting emotional reading it.
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:33.759
And it just made me feel like Kami brought me back to when I was a kid and being inspired by some of these stories, and not that I did find the meaning of life in any of those, but it helped me get through uh certain dark times um in in college, which looking back, I'm like, uh, there really wasn't uh that dark of a time, but in the moment it felt like it is because everything just feels like the weight of the world's on you.
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:39.279
Yeah, you know, well, and I'm I'm gonna clue in some folks who might be like, I don't know what trade means.
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:55.200
Um so you have the individual issue of the comic book that comes out typically monthly or whatever, um, and then eventually, like if it's a five or six issue arc of a story, um they will collect them and they'll put them in a what's frequently referred to as a trade paperback.
00:27:55.359 --> 00:28:06.240
Um, one of the things I learned uh primarily through my Star Wars fandom in college, uh is that there are people who buy the individual issues and then there are people who wait on the trade paperback collection.
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:21.920
Uh and trade waiting sometimes, at least in the era that I really really leaned into comic book collecting, um, which was sort of college and post-college, um trade waiters are why uh local comic books struggle.
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:27.680
Uh, because what local comic book stores want you doing is coming in every week looking for the new issue and that kind of stuff.
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:37.359
And and I I had to make the decision to be a trade waiter uh in college because I couldn't buy comics and I would be drawn into any story I saw.
00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:56.160
So um Star Wars in college, in particular 1997 to 1999, I purchased everything that was in print, um, Star Wars wise, whether collected in a trade paperback or um single issues, and and uh and that's what got me back into comic books um for uh for a big part of it.
00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:37.680
Um the other thing that um as Matt as you're telling the story that I was thinking about is that um the the idea that this character um and like the I don't know like the arc and their development and the sort of the new fresh version of them, Nightwing formerly being Robin, um, you know, those were the things that just activated my uh imagination uh is a new little spin on uh on someone we already know, just a different perspective, just a different version, maybe a different reality or a different artist or a different writer.
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:50.640
Um, and it was just one of the things that as I came out of undergraduate and started working full-time and had a little bit more expendable income and didn't have kids yet, I was like, oh, there's so much out there.
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:58.319
I think that's another thing that overwhelms folks about comic books, especially if you think of comic books through like the Marvel cinematic universe and all the films.
00:29:58.400 --> 00:29:59.680
There's just so much to keep up with.
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:08.799
I'm like, find yourself a little pocket, find yourself an artist or a writer, um, find a character you like, and uh and I'm sure you'll have everything that you're looking for.
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:10.960
You don't have to know all the other stuff for sure.
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:22.640
Yeah, I I got more into trades because like Amazon came about and I'm in college and I'm like, I got my credit card, let me just start buying all these different trades.
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:24.559
I mean, and and I get it, yes.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:32.720
I I guess I've contributed to comic book stores closing uh because I I didn't want to go and buy uh the individual issues.
00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:39.599
I wanted to just it's kind of like when you when you binge watch a a TV show, even though like it might come out week to week with the episodes.
00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:45.440
I'm more of one where sometimes I'm like, I'll just wait until everything's out and then I'm just gonna watch all of it.
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:50.720
Um, but with purchasing trades, it's also cost effective as well.
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:53.440
And I'm like, I'm a starving college student.
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:57.839
Like, yes, I guess if I didn't buy the comics, I could buy you know more than just ramen.
00:30:58.240 --> 00:31:01.519
But um, you know, it it is what it is.
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:25.680
But I was also in college, um, aside from buying some of the newer trades, I was also um buying trades of some of those individual issues that I had that I brought that I when I was buying those comic book issues growing up, because I was like, now I really want to know what happened in the story that I only had part one of three or part three of three, and I didn't have the complete story.
00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:32.000
Now let me go and read it, find out what happens, and is it as exciting as I imagined it uh to be?
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:38.559
But I think as when I graduated college, I would continue to start, you know, continue reading those trades.
00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:46.880
But I think that's where I got more connected with um some of these characters because I was trying to kind of understand myself better.
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:53.039
And you know, we were talking about Nightwing, formerly Robin, but there was the third Robin, which is Tim Drake.
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:58.079
And this goes to the Batman Nightfall uh trade that I read.
00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:18.960
And through some of those issues and other issues I read about um that third Robin, like he never wanted to be Robin, he just wanted to, he actually wanted uh Nightwing to go back to being Robin to help Batman because it was a time where Batman was just kind of all over the place, angry.
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:28.160
And um he felt that Nightwing would give a sense of calmness and help Batman remember why he's doing what he's doing.
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:31.680
And eventually um Tim Drake becomes Robin.
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:34.799
But he also never wanted to be like the star or anything.
00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:40.319
He really wanted to be that psychic to really just help out and give balance and help where he could.
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:47.279
And that connected with me because it's like I've as I've told many people, like I've never wanted to be an administrator, still don't.
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:51.839
I like what I do where I get to help in students individually.
00:32:52.240 --> 00:33:02.880
Um, but it's never one where I'm trying to get to that top place, or I'm doing this so I can build my resume so I can move on to do this, or or whatever it might be.
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:08.640
So I've always felt like that connection uh to Tim Drake, to that third Robin.
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:09.279
Yeah.
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:15.839
And you know, there's like I said, there are folks who are like, wait, isn't there just a Batman and a Robin?
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:18.720
That's like, well, welcome to the world of comic books.
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:22.240
Um Welcome to decades of comic book stores.
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:22.720
Yeah.
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:30.799
Well, and you know, that if if you own a company um where uh creative intellectual property is your product, you want as much of it out there as possible.
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:46.240
And there are especially um the kids who grew up uh in the 60s and 70s on sort of the silver and uh golden age comics, and they started uh making this new era of comic books, and then there's a whole group of people who grew up with that.
00:33:46.400 --> 00:34:00.000
Um, and uh Matt and I just happened to be growing up and and coming to understand ourselves as people at like that third generation of comic book creators, and it was it was uh very quickly becoming big business.
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:15.599
A lot of folks were realizing um the money that can be made behind it, and then significant exploitative practices and difficult working conditions, some of which have started to um reveal themselves in the the movie industry for comic book movies as well, too.
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:38.239
And you know, I think anybody who is a big fan of something and spends enough time around it and really engaging with it, they'll start to see where people can kind of mess it up and you can lose a little bit of the joy of creation and the um the power of the story, and and and you started to see the business side of it, um, and it loses a little bit of its shine.
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:48.480
And um, I can tell you conclusively for me that it was those indie titles um where I started uh to find that um joy again.
00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:53.039
Um I got big time into Hellboy, um, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
00:34:53.119 --> 00:35:00.880
Of course, I grew up with the cartoons, but um, you know, revisiting uh sort of their origin and and how they got started and stuff.
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:14.960
And um sometimes it's not the big um comic book companies uh where folks are gonna find their uh their real connection to uh visual narratives in sort of graphic um uh novel format.
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:28.239
And I know the the nerds at your comic book shops would love to introduce you to some of those less um big name um you know movie title kind of characters and and show you the whole range of what's out there.
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:38.800
It's uh it really is um an amazing time to be a comic book fan and to connect with um the visual narrative storytelling of of graphic novels for sure.
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:52.719
Um but yeah, I think no matter which character it is, which comic, if it's mainstream, indie, or whatnot, like there's connections to be made and that connect really to real life um in our lives.
00:35:53.039 --> 00:36:10.559
And and I think this kind of leads into why we did the imposter syndrome one is I think for the for mostly everyone, I would assume a large majority of us, whether we're in higher ed or not, have experienced imposter syndrome or continue uh to experience imposter syndrome.
00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:25.920
Um I know for me the character that I connected with most regarding that um is one of the Green Lanterns, uh Kyle Rayner, who this was during like the 93, 1993, 1994, maybe earlier, I don't know.
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:30.079
But it was uh DC kind of tried to shake things up with their characters.
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:40.800
Like, you know, they killed off Superman, they broke Batman's back, um, they made Hal Jordan the most well-known Green Lantern at that time, uh, go insane.
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:46.639
And so Kyle Rayner was the newest Green Lantern, but wasn't really picked.
00:36:46.719 --> 00:37:01.519
It was just randomly the guardian who had a Green Lantern ring and went and ran out of uh energy or strength and really just dropped this ring off to this random person who happened to be Kyle Rayner.
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:14.400
And he kind of had to learn the ropes of being a hero and what to actually do uh with this ring where he can create these uh constructs of anything he can imagine.
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:23.039
And I think that kind of related to me when you get dropped into certain uh job responsibilities where you don't really get trained on it and you just sink or swim.
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:26.480
And that was a big um kind of learning point.
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:31.119
But also this person, uh this character, Kyle, was also an artist.
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:41.840
So this kind of goes, I think, to the the comic book visuals is he was creating these most amazing constructs uh from his imagination.
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:48.400
And that kind of helped me with like, well, we can be creative and be imaginative in a lot of things that that we do.
00:37:48.800 --> 00:38:13.280
But him being able to read his stories and kind of see his arc of starting out not knowing anything, kind of live and learn experiences, sink or swim, having to earn the respect and trust from the mainstream DC characters, you know, it was something where I feel like that's something all of us can can connect with and something I still connect with uh to this day.
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:40.400
Yeah, you know, I when Matt uh suggested this idea for this poster, um uh of course I wanted to reimagine my understanding of imposter syndrome as not just the human experience, but the ways that we can start, I don't know, maybe identifying steps to take, right?
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:58.159
And and it was far easier for me to think of the characters and how they process that feeling of I might not be the the right one for the job, or I may not be um particularly equipped for, or people may not accept me as.
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:16.719
Um, and I uh really found uh a lot of resonance with the stories of Kamala Khan, uh sort of the new Miss Marvel, um, but then also um uh Sam Wilson's Captain America when he changed from being Falcon to uh taking on the mantle of Captain America.
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:25.280
And you know, I fully recognize that you know most places um as far as work and higher ed and and and the world are made for people like me.
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:45.840
Um, but there's a lot of expectation there uh to be just, um, to to use power um equitably but appropriately, and you know, both of those characters struggle with um the weight of expectation um and and whether or not folks will accept them or not.
00:39:46.000 --> 00:40:16.880
Uh and and I really do remember as we were preparing uh for our poster session revisiting um Sam and uh Kamala and understanding their stories as they're told uh by different writers and in different versions, um, and just finding some real hopefulness in adopting a mentality of positivity and belief in others' goodness uh in the face of not being sure if I'm really the person who should be doing this.
00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:27.199
Um, there's amazing examples of folks who just use what is inherently good about them uh to try to activate what is inherently good about other people.
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:45.519
And if you're if you're listening and like, uh, is this really you know, look, any superhero, any character, I guess you could say, like we as advising professionals or our students, we all kind of have these doubts, fears, um, feeling like we don't belong.
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:54.639
Um, but I think if anything, it's like if you you can see these characters as or see ourselves in these characters.
00:40:54.800 --> 00:41:00.719
I mean, not necessarily maybe in their power set or whatever, but we can share in their struggles.
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:05.360
Uh, we can share in their wins, in their successes, their lived experiences.
00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:19.119
And I think if anything in professional development trainings, something like this could be uh like an easy way for people to have a basic foundation and maybe a fun way to dive into these concepts.
00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:25.440
Um, you can even take these characters and connect it to like an advising theory or you know, whatever you want.
00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:31.039
And it could be something fun, especially if it's a topic that might be a little bit more serious.
00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:36.960
This could be something that might be able to give some of more of that engagement to participants as well.
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:49.840
Yeah, one of the things that um we had posed as a possible question for our discussion today was um like what is it that comic books offer that other narrative sources sometimes don't?
00:41:49.920 --> 00:42:00.719
And I do think it's sort of lowering that bar of I don't know, pressure or seriousness or um, you know, academic feeling or whatever.
00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:07.440
You know, sometimes what people need is something recognizable and easy um to start the big conversations.
00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:21.840
Um what Matt and I experienced in our um first collaboration around a comic book, the Umbrella Academy, um, was just how uh excited people were to start thinking about academic advising.
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:29.360
And specifically, we were talking about strengths-based advising then, um, through the lens of the Umbrella uh Academy characters.
00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:31.679
Um, we did it because we enjoyed it.
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:35.039
We like Umbrella Academy, we like academic advising.
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:49.199
It was natural and easy for us, but we didn't know what those folks in the room would think of it, and uh and it was so much fun to be in a uh presentation setting where we're trying to say, Hey, come with us.
00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:52.639
And people were like, Those steps are easy to make.
00:42:52.800 --> 00:43:00.079
Um, I'm not having to interpret through a lens of a published article or a journal or you know, being serious.
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:03.039
I'm like, I can talk about a character that I know right away.
00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:10.559
Um, and that kind of access, I think, is one of the things that comic books provide that other structures don't.
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:15.199
You know, there's a representation of the character, there's a visual element to it.
00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:23.599
Um, they've been around forever, we know who they are, and even if we don't like them or spend a lot of time with them, we have an impression of them and we can start there.
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:45.599
And that was I just remember um sort of how exciting it was to be at the front of a group of learners who were excited to learn and discuss and and share their own ideas, and I don't believe that it had anything to do with Matt or I, and it had everything to do with starting at an accessible point.
00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:57.760
Um, somewhere in the scholarship of um popular culture references, um, there's this idea that this is a public pedagogy, this is a shared narrative that is an easy access point for anybody.
00:43:57.840 --> 00:43:59.760
And um, and I just remember feeling.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:09.920
Feeling so validated when uh other far more qualified people have said, Yeah, that's why this works, is because we're starting from the same understanding point.
00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:10.719
Yeah.
00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:19.440
And it's one where, you know, let's say you do have this conference idea and want to present on it, and you're like, well, are people gonna know about it or not?
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:20.800
That's fine.
00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:27.199
Um, you might have people that might go to your session because it just sounded like it sounded interesting.
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:41.039
Um, now whether we've presented on it, we've done a training on it, typically we also do um a slide or two where we're doing more of an introduction um to these characters or to a comic or movie or whatever it might be.
00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:51.280
That way anyone else in the room who doesn't know can get caught up, get caught up to speed on that particular pop culture reference or whatever it might be.
00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:57.119
And those that already know about it, they just get to enjoy hearing about it again.
00:44:57.280 --> 00:44:58.880
It's like watching a reaction video.
00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:04.559
Well, and you know, what Matt just described, other people would describe as a literature review.
00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:11.519
Um, if if you're bringing people up to speed on what's happened with this character, you're doing your literature review at the beginning of your presentation.
00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:29.119
Um Yeah, I remember um back in January because we we did the virtual appreciative uh education advising conference, and uh we did one on the karate kid and how that can connect with learning about uh the appreciative advising approach.
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:43.519
And if you're listening to this and it's not uh you're not it's not the conference time yet for the Nakata annual conference and you're going, come see our poster session on the Karate Kid and Appreciative Advising Shameless plug there.
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:55.119
But we uh when we presented, uh we did uh an overview of the Karate Kid movie um just because we're then gonna talk about appreciative advising all the different phases.
00:45:55.360 --> 00:46:12.000
And I remember one of the um participants that attended uh put in the chat or mentioned it afterwards and said thanks to us, um, because they had never watched the movie, they kind of knew about it, but it was great uh for them to learn about it to then go into the actual theory.
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:15.840
So they kind of felt they were caught up and they understood what was going on.
00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:28.960
So yeah, if even if um your attendees don't know anything about the um comic or the pop culture reference you're using, you can take a little bit of time just to explain it in the beginning.
00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:30.239
Yeah, absolutely.
00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:42.800
And you know, the activation of the the learner, the listener, um uh it it starts with that setting the tone of here's where we're coming from.
00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:59.920
Uh and it has just been um one of the most evident things in the time that I've spent in pop culture spaces, um blending it with academic advising, uh, that the barrier to that activation is extraordinarily low.
00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:08.559
So I guess as we maybe tie everything back to to comic books, um, do you have a favorite comic book character characters?
00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:18.000
Yeah, my so as a longtime Star Wars fan, um, people will often ask me what's my favorite Star Wars movie, and my standard answer uh was always the next one.
00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:40.480
Um, and that I I'm always interested in um, you know, a new interpretation on um somebody or somebody's uh fresh new idea on a concept, but I I will say um probably the character whose total storyline I like the best is Silver Surfer.
00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:57.039
Um there is something just really uh just wild about the idea that this person who's supposed to be an alien, by the way, not from Earth, um, would uh receive this incredible power, um, the the power cosmic.
00:47:57.280 --> 00:48:00.559
Basically, anything you want the character to do, he should be able to do.
00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:06.079
Um, and the the surfboard comes out somehow.
00:48:06.320 --> 00:48:26.159
The there's this goofiness to that sort of incredible power and uh big picture, but the the character uh who originated the surfer is named Noran Rad, and he sacrifices everything that he had, even though he was a little, I would say, dissatisfied with life in a idyllic, you know, perfect world.
00:48:26.320 --> 00:48:37.840
Um, he sacrifices his life, um, becomes the herald of Galactus, the planet eater, um, so that his planet and his uh people that he loves would be spared.
00:48:37.920 --> 00:48:41.840
Um, and then he becomes this sort of immortal, what do I do?
00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:55.119
And he throws off um being a part of um destruction and tries to be a hero, uh, and also um is really cool looking, you know, just has a great visual.
00:48:55.199 --> 00:48:56.559
Uh, I think that really helps.
00:48:56.639 --> 00:48:59.760
Uh, don't need a logo, you know, just be you.
00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:02.719
You know, I don't need a brand, I just need to be me.
00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:04.639
And that really resonated with me too.
00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:05.760
How about you?
00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:13.760
Yeah, so I kind of go back to the Tim Drake Robin, but I think um Batman is probably one of my favorites in DC.
00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:17.519
Um, just because for the most part, he's always five steps ahead.
00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:25.119
He's always considering every every scenario, um, which I kind of relate to, but then sometimes it can be a little stressful doing that.
00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:36.000
But from Marvel, and I've said this on another uh podcast when uh with Magumi uh when she was on, but she asked me about that, and I said uh for Marvel it was Cyclops of the X-Men.
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:44.239
Uh, not because he he was the leader of the X-Men, but he was someone that he tried to make sure that everyone was taken care of.
00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:52.559
Um, and he was kind of like Batman trying to be five steps ahead, um trying to save you know the mutant race, essentially.
00:49:52.880 --> 00:50:04.079
And he was someone that people say can be very boring and dry, but he doesn't care, you know, he's always looking at what's the goal, and um, I've always appreciated that.
00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:26.800
And I think if anything too, kind of maybe related to X-Men, um, if you have if if you think of like a comic book team, you might be able to compare that to people in your office, and that maybe that also helps with how you work with with others uh within your office or how you work with students or connect with with people that um you need to collaborate with.
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:28.880
Yeah, so many connections.
00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:37.039
And you know, as we wrap this up, I just I just want to note that comic books remind us that people are never finished stories.
00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:42.239
Every issue, every volume, every reboot offers another opportunity for growth.
00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:54.320
Academic advising is built on the same assumption that students are not defined by who they are today, advisors are not defined by the institution they work for, but by the possibilities of who they're becoming.
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:56.320
The stories we tell matter.
00:50:56.480 --> 00:51:05.119
Comic books often illustrate the potential of personal transformation, and advisors can help students author the next chapter of their lives.
00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:06.239
Love it.
00:51:06.400 --> 00:51:07.920
I have nothing else to add to that.
00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:09.519
That's the perfect way to end it.
00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:11.199
So thanks for listening.
00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:12.800
All right, we'll see you next time.
00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:17.760
Hello and welcome back to the Adventures in Advising Podcast.
00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:24.640
This is Matt Markin along with Ryan Shuckel and Ryan, it's it's been a while since we've had an episode with both of us.
00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:26.320
Yeah, you know, I'll I'll say this.
00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:39.759
Um I've really appreciated uh Brody and Kevin sort of keeping the energy going in the podcast sphere and stuff and the other episodes that have come out, but I've I've felt like an outsider looking in um a little bit.
00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:48.560
You know, it's it's uh it's always good to take a break, and certainly summer and uh orientation uh season can be demanding, but uh I'm glad to get back at it.
00:00:48.640 --> 00:01:00.560
And it was nice to hear the the song uh on the recording on the way in, just just a common, uh comfortable, recognizable tune again, and uh I'm glad to glad that we're back at it.
00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:09.359
Yeah, well, and then also the fact that it's been since episode 185 that we've been on together on an episode.
00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:14.159
Uh these last few episodes have been either you, myself, guest hosts.
00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:16.159
So good to be back.
00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:17.359
Yeah, absolutely.
00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:26.959
And as we're winding down to episode 200, we're kind of talking about like, well, what are we who are we having on?
00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:30.879
What topics are we gonna discuss as we get towards the end?
00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:35.200
And it was like, well, let's talk about something that we both like.
00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:43.760
I mean, of course we like academic advising and higher ed, but can we bring something else into that, I guess, realm?
00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:56.719
And one of the things we we've done in terms of presentations over the years, whether it's you doing your thing, me doing mine, us doing a few things together, has been incorporating pop culture.
00:01:56.959 --> 00:02:07.840
And last year we were at the Vegas conference and we did a poster session uh with the topic of imposter syndrome and comic book characters.
00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:15.120
And we thought, well, why don't we talk about comic books on this particular episode and have a little fun with it?
00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:16.159
Yeah, absolutely.
00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:19.280
You know, I I know it's been uh percolating.
00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:35.120
Um, it's hard for these interests and and passions and loves um to not seep into uh how we express ourselves and and how we interact with the the world and these ideas and concepts surrounding academic advising and and higher education.
00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:45.919
But um, so I know some of our uh listeners and viewers are aware of this um just through the just through the podcast, not through other ways of having interacted with us uh in uh in other capacities.
00:02:46.080 --> 00:03:03.280
But the idea that one of the ways we can understand our world, uh the work that we do and how we fit into it is through the lens of narrative, um, is is certainly um well it's I think something that both you and I have come to feel comfortable with.
00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:14.400
Um it's uh maybe it took a little bit uh justification that it was a legitimate framework through which to uh examine and and build lines of inquiry.
00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:23.520
Um but as we as we talk today and what might be a little bit of a ripoff of a just us uh episode, um, hopefully there's not a copyright on that.
00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:37.919
Um, but you know, we'll we'll talk through all the different ways that um comic book characters and pop culture have informed not only maybe like our personal lives, but also our approach to our professional lives too.
00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:42.319
Yeah, and if anyone's listening, it's like, is this really legit?
00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:48.080
It is like there you can go and find scholarly articles on this.
00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:48.479
Yeah.
00:03:49.039 --> 00:04:07.280
You know, from I mean, when we've researched it, I mean we found various articles where they're taking um some sort of theory or approach and connecting that to like a movie, for example, like uh Benjamin uh not the full title, but the Benjamin Button movie.
00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:08.800
Curious case of Benjamin Button.
00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:09.120
There we go.
00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:15.680
Um and there was also one on American History X, uh, the British Avengers show.
00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:22.079
Um, and then we could also tie, of course, tie all that in with uh Peter Hagen's work as well.
00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:23.199
Yeah, absolutely.
00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:58.399
And you know, um as Matt and I were talking about when and how um we progressed toward episode 200 and which topics um are really salient and important, um, you know, just in a timeliness sense, it also felt appropriate uh with Peter's passing and um just to recognize how important his work in legitimizing humanities-based perspectives, um, but also uh just tapping into um the kind of cultural uh power that narrative has.
00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:15.839
Um we tell stories uh so much, whether they're you know based on our own lives or uh our our sort of the culture of our institutions, these ideas that higher education or learning is a human endeavor of value and importance.
00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:22.560
Um we're usually building those discussions in a narrative sense.
00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:27.360
Um let you know, let me tell you about this and let me explain that, and here's where this comes from.
00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:42.639
And um, and it's it's not a it's not too large of a leap uh to say that other stories can uh inform the way we understand uh the things that we might do in reality uh compared to those other fictional places as well, too.
00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:49.120
And Peter was a previous guest on the podcast way, way, way back uh in in the early goings of it.
00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:54.240
And you know, we got to talk with him about narrative and um just having him on.
00:05:54.319 --> 00:06:01.040
Um I'm glad that we were able to get him on as a guest, and his knowledge is there for anyone to go back and listen to.
00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:03.439
When did you first meet Peter?
00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:12.000
So I you know, my story uh as far as in academic advising and my career interest is somewhere around 2013.
00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:25.279
Um, my supervisor at the time was uh the um director of the School of Art at TechStech University, and Lydia asked me, you know, like sort of what do you see your future in this organization looking like?
00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:30.800
Um, and you know, and that was also a point in my own life where I was like, what do I really want to do in advising?
00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:43.839
Um it was a sort of a culmination of things, but I had attended annual conferences, regional conferences, state conferences, um, sort of spotty, uh maybe dependent on my availability or funding availability.
00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:56.000
Um, and I started to realize that how I wanted to contribute in the field of academic advising um was maybe a little bit more than a consumer of the scholarship or the discourse.
00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:02.480
So somewhere around 2013, 2014, I was like, I'm I'm gonna actually conference when I go to conferences.
00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:09.680
I'm gonna talk to people, I'm gonna really engage, I'm I'm not just going to float through and say, here's some interesting ideas I picked up.
00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:14.720
Um and so I it was uh I think the 2014 annual conference.
00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:19.360
I decided to go to the business meeting and to advising community meetings.
00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:25.680
And uh Peter was at the very first theory philosophy and history of advising community meeting I had ever attended.
00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:56.800
Um, and then the next year uh I attended a presentation where he was exploring these ideas of narrative structure and sort of in a sort of continua sense, like there's this side of the idea and there's this side, and he was outlining in his presentation sort of the range of the narrative arcs of what is the purpose of higher education and how does somebody interact with their learning, and then he take he took both of those continua and made them an axis.
00:07:57.120 --> 00:08:09.600
And I honestly hadn't I'm sure there are people who I had been in sessions where they were really being innovative about the way they thought about our work, um, and they weren't just saying, here's what we do on our campus.
00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:30.240
But I was at the time sort of live tweeting my conference experience, and I was like, that just blows my mind that someone's thinking about academic advising in that kind of um creative, innovative, um, really inventive um approach.
00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:33.279
Uh and I was like, I want to do that more, I want to be around that more.
00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:37.519
So um that was you know pretty uh pretty long time ago.
00:08:37.679 --> 00:09:07.039
And one of my joys of uh my time with Nikada and the theory, philosophy, and history of advising community is that a lot of that time was spent around Peter, um whether in formal presentation spaces or informal conversations, you know, in the afternoon in the evenings after conference and stuff, um uh there was a kind of generosity and um friendliness um that everybody was um all in the same space and in and all um equal participants.
00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:10.559
That was just a hallmark of my experience with Peter for sure.
00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:11.679
Yeah.
00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:18.559
Um I first knew of Peter, I think when he was he keynoted was it the Phoenix conference?
00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:21.279
Right, yeah, maybe it was Phoenix then, yes.
00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:21.759
Yeah.
00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:23.279
Both in the desert.
00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:25.200
Yeah, exactly.
00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:31.279
Yeah, and I mean, and I think around that time, I think is when when the book came out, too.
00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:35.200
And I think right after that, I was just so inspired.
00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:37.440
I'm like, let me go buy the book.
00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:49.360
And I feel that many of the presentations that that I've done since then and the ones that we've done together, we've had Peter quoted in there um from his book.
00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:57.440
I I know like recent ones, you know, for sure, have been in the Imposter Syndrome with comic book characters that we did last year in Vegas.
00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:03.440
Um we did it from the Umbrella Academy one we did a few years back, which I think was Cincinnati.
00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:04.720
Yeah, absolutely.
00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:24.879
Uh some of the other ones I've done with some other folks have been with uh like Star Trek and Star Wars and uh Pro Wrestling, and you know, now with this one, and you've done a few also um solo with with pop culture that I swear you you've had uh Peter quoted in there.
00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:25.919
Yeah, certainly.
00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:31.200
I the first thing I did um in with pop culture was just a wild swing.
00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:58.159
You know, I didn't know what I was doing, but I was I was capturing um like an existing spirit of narrative um in the way that the book uh um academic advising approaches, which just came out in 2013, um, and the way the editors and the contributors of that book sort of were building a story of how theory has informed our practice through advising approaches.
00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:08.879
Um, the titles of the chapters and the sections felt like Star Wars titles, um, um different trilogies and and uh sort of the Roman numeral side of things.
00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:17.200
And and so I just slapped a Star Wars clip on front of each chapter and just presented that in Las Vegas in 2015.
00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:37.759
Um, but um over the the years I have borrowed that sort of legitimacy and um uh I guess the permission that Peter gave everybody to say if you have a story that really resonates, bring it into the space, whether it's the practical space with students or this the scholarly space uh in a presentation or an article.
00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:58.000
Um and one of the ones I feel like was taking it to the maximum was a presentation I've given called Time Traveling Cyborg Wizards, uh, where I found these things about being an advisor that feel sort of like fictional characters, like people don't really understand us, don't really know what it's like.
00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:18.639
Um they think the things that we do are magical and mystical, and um that we are sometimes tied to machines, and um, but uh I borrowed um the themes of popular culture references of wizards and cyborgs and time travelers to just talk about the experience of being an advisor.
00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:23.840
Um, and it was I would say approaching too many pop culture references.
00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:26.879
There's never it's never too many.
00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:29.519
Uh it was hard to fit it all into an hour.
00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:31.840
I'll say yeah, maybe for a presentation.
00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:34.320
So just to randomly talk about it.
00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:46.639
Yeah, that's yeah, and then as kind of going back with uh Peter and we're talking about like different books, but um the main one, at least for me, has been the power of story book uh that that he wrote.
00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:57.440
And you know, and then of course he's arguing that you know stories provide structure and coherence to those events, processes, and and motivations that may lack in viable interpretation.
00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:00.240
So kind of what we've been talking about already.
00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:21.039
But um, you know, I I like that he has that that he was using that humanities-informed practice, um, because it's like we're trying to understand um each other and how this all kind of ties into that adult learning and human resource development and and various other fields connected with uh academic advising.
00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:35.679
And so it's almost like that book has been the gift that keeps on giving, um, you know, not just to the field, not just to the presentations, but I mean also many of us individually on how we grow um as professionals.
00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:42.720
Yeah, one of the things I've really enjoyed over the years is being a part of the e Ninakata e-tutorial facilitation group.
00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:48.879
And um I was also part of a uh work group that sort of rewrote the theory and practice e-tutorial.
00:13:49.039 --> 00:14:08.559
Um, and uh, you know, I as facilitator of that um e-tutorial now more than seven or eight times, um it is remarkable how so many participants um will choose narrative theory for one of the assignments where they get to do a case study.
00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:13.039
You know, like there's a whole world of theory for them to select from.
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:34.399
When taking an example from their own practice as advisors and meshing it with a theoretical framework, um, but the vast majority are drawn to the narrative theory reading, um, and they use it in the discussion of their case study far more than the other theoretical frameworks through which we can understand academic advising.
00:14:34.480 --> 00:15:00.320
And so there's uh anecdotal evidence that it's it's not just that uh Peter's work gave everyone permission to value how significant story can be and how much narrative can inform our practice, but that as human beings we're drawn to that perhaps first, foremost, um, more than any other way that we might understand what's happening in our world, um, a good story is what connects with us for sure.
00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:02.639
And I think that's a great transition.
00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:04.720
You know, good story connects with us.
00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:07.039
Where did this all start for us?
00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:20.639
You know, maybe in terms of comic books, uh can you do you have like your first memory of a comic book that you read or how that ended up working out or turned into this?
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:26.000
As a parent myself, I've I've often thought about you know, like my earliest childhood memories.
00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:31.360
Um, you know, my parents divorced when I was two and my mom remarried when I was four.
00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:37.440
And so the home that I remember growing up in um was you know a sort of a blended home.
00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:41.200
Um, but there were always picture books.
00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:55.279
Uh and you know, if there is one thing that my parents did well, um, besides, you know, making sure that we felt loved and provided for and safe, it was that we had a wealth of pages to turn through.
00:15:55.440 --> 00:16:03.679
Um, my stepdad in particular um was uh a big proponent of the uh World Book Encyclopedia uh brand.
00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:10.320
Uh we had all just in the living room, uh under the television were all the encyclopedias.
00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:15.919
Um but I had a bookshelf uh in my room growing up, and I had tons of books.
00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:26.080
Um, so much so that I'm sure one of the biggest things my parents uh tried to instill in me is the value of putting your books back uh where they belong, not leaving them on the floor and stuff.
00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:30.799
Um, but uh Saturdays, uh my dad had visitation.
00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:34.000
Uh he would pick my sister and I up, and it's usually a pretty full day.
00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:38.639
We'd usually do fun stuff, uh I guess defined by uh various perspectives.
00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:42.720
Sometimes we'd be on the golf course with my dad, which I know was fun for him, and we were outdoors and it was good.
00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:45.759
Sometimes we'd visit uh my grandparents at their ranch.
00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:50.879
Uh um, but sometimes we like we'd go to the mall or we'd you know go see a movie or you know, whatever.
00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:57.279
We usually have dinner at some point in that timeline, and then it was the sort of wrapping up period.
00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:08.720
And sometimes what we would do is we'd go to a donut shop that was connected to a convenience store gas station, and you know, we'd just get a little treat, a little donut before we go, or something like that.
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:30.799
But that uh convenience store, that gas station had like a comic book rack, and I could be in the donut shop side and I could like just see uh just across the threshold a whole rack of comic books, and you know, some of my first memories of comic books is after a great, wonderful, fun day with family wrapping up with a little treat and then grabbing a quick comic book.
00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:35.279
And and I was drawn to Silver Surfer, I'm wearing the shirt today.
00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:40.240
Um that was one of the first comic book characters I specifically remember being interested in.
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:45.200
Um, and some of those early Silver Surfer comics weren't meant for kids, I would say.
00:17:45.359 --> 00:18:00.880
Um a lot more philosophical um than some of the other stuff that was out there, but uh, but definitely some of the earliest comic books I remember like the covers falling off of and trying to figure out how to tape them back on to stuff were my Silver Surfer comics.
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:02.799
And what year was this?
00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:05.440
I mean, look, I was born in 76.
00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:08.720
I'm gonna guess this was early 80s.
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:09.519
Yeah.
00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:11.440
How about you?
00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:17.440
Uh yes, I was born in the 80s, uh, so not too long after you.
00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:24.960
But mine was probably the 1990s, um, or as the kids say nowadays, the late 1900s.
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:34.559
But I remember my brother had classic Spider-Man number seven that was introducing the lizard um character.
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:42.000
And classic Spider-Man, they were essentially reprinting the old 60s um issues from when it came out.
00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:45.920
And I just remember reading it and just being like, this is amazing.
00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:47.359
It's Spider-Man.
00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:49.039
I always knew who Spider-Man was.
00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:56.799
But to read the comic, see the artwork, getting the understand the storytelling was like now.
00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:58.160
I want to read more.
00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:13.279
So from that, anytime we would be on vacation or we go to the mall, I'd always want to make sure I could go somewhere that had a comic rack and then just buy random issues of Spider-Man or whatever was there.
00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:23.440
And um, I just remember there was one time um we were in Hawaii and I was, you know, however old I was very young.
00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:35.839
And it's like, yeah, look, there's the beach, there's you know, uh amazing views, there's diamond head, and I don't only cared about wanting to go somewhere to say to get a comic book.
00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:38.640
I remember also going to like Walden bookstores.
00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:45.920
I don't know if you remember that, and no longer in business, I don't think, but that's where I got a lot of my comic books.
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:57.680
I kind of grew up first with Marvel and then got into DC when I started reading um Batman and Green Lantern.
00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:16.960
My mom would also um take me to like Costco or Sam's Club, and I can't remember which one it was, but they would sell for like$9.99, and it was maybe like 10 to 20 comic books, like individual uh issues that that did not go together, by the way.
00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:26.960
So I would be reading issues that maybe was part one of three or part two of three or part three of three, and it was like the conclusion.
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:44.720
So I'd either jump in not knowing what happened, the previous two episodes uh issues, and then trying to understand what's going on now, and like, oh, now that story arc is over, or starting out reading part one and not knowing what happens afterwards.
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:51.200
So that also I think is where my imagination started going, like what happened next?
00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:56.319
Here's all the different avenues it could have gone, or how do we get to this point?
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.000
And like my mind would just kind of go into overdrive.
00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:22.240
Um, but I remember uh as a kid like just having a stack of those individual issues, and I couldn't wait to get home, finish my homework, and then go back, even though I've read those issues multiple times, I just kept going back to those issues and just going diving back into those those different realities, those different worlds.
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:23.680
Yeah, absolutely.
00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:36.000
That's um I you when you're at the comic book rack at a convenience store, don't a convenience store, a gas station, that's not like it's the full collection, you know, issue one to whatever.
00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:39.119
And so it was just like what when what looked coolest?
00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:43.920
Um, you know, what had the best cover or the uh the artwork inside that really grabbed you?
00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:51.759
And um, you know, when I could go to the mall and the the Walden books um there, it was just outside the target.
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:59.759
Um, you know, they would have sometimes those entire big collections, but those were usually outside my price range, you know, as a as a kid who got a five.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:09.680
Dollar a week allowance, you know, even in 1980s money that didn't go super far when it was like a you know$15 book or something like that.
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:15.759
Um, the first time I ever saved money uh was to buy a big uh Marvel Comics compendium.
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:18.400
Uh it was hard back, and I was like, it's gonna last forever.
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:25.599
Um, and I'm sure my parents were a little bit chagrined that what got me motivated to save were uh the funny pages.
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:38.880
And you know, speaking of the funny pages, you know, it was uh an era where we got newspapers, and it was not uncommon to flip through the the comics on the the the Sunday or Saturday papers.
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:49.359
Um it was also for me the era of like after school cartoons and Saturday morning cartoons, and a lot of the heroes um of the era were um you know presented on televisions.
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:51.680
I mean, it was marketing for toys.
00:22:51.920 --> 00:23:03.039
Um, but you know, that's that was the sort of cultural milieu that I grew up in, where it was like crazy fantastic stories just thrown at you, blasted at you at full volume all the time.
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:06.400
And um, you couldn't always be around the TV, but you could take your comics with you.
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:18.480
And there are a lot of road trips and family vacations where you know I was trying to figure out which ones do I take so I can read them over and over on the drive to you know Minnesota or Tennessee or Florida one time.
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:43.359
I mean uh you know, those books um in their various formats and structures uh really were companions at times too growing up, you know, that um I had always had access to those worlds and to those characters, but um, somewhere in the middle school years, I shifted a little bit into those indie uh titles and away from the mainline Marvel and DC stuff.
00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:48.480
Um, some folks out there might be familiar with the work of Wendy and Richard Penny, P I and I.
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:52.799
Um, they did a big long epic comic called Elf Quest.
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:59.759
Um, and I have all of those collected editions from um the 80s.
00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:17.920
Uh and then there was a brief moment in uh the late 80s where in our mall there was kind of a um I don't know if it was just role-playing and sort of indie comics, but there was a little bit of uh manga and um you know small print runs.
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:30.559
And uh and I remember reading comics where like I stopped thinking about them as just entertainment and maybe a little bit more of I don't know, like they were trying to teach me something.
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:44.480
They were trying to not just um have a little bit of fun for 22 pages or for 30 minutes on the TV, but trying to send a message to the readers and and trying to uh tackle bigger concepts or um maybe more human uh realities.
00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:56.240
And and I was wondering, Matt, do you remember a time when your engagement with comic books stopped being about the fun and the entertainment value and started being a little bit more than that?
00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:59.440
Yeah, probably not into my college years.
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:05.759
Um, I do want to just mention, because you were talking about money um and not being able to like, oh, this out of my price range.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:31.440
Like I would go with my mom every Sunday to the grocery store just so I can get to the aisle for the comics and then read the comics as I'm pushing the cart and then put the comic book back, and knowing like yeah, I probably should have paid for that, but I got I I got to read a fun story, and that's kind of how I got into uh a lot of it with Green Lantern.
00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:48.640
But I would save money and I'd I remember of all places we were vacation in London, and that's where I bought the trade for Batman Nightfall and uh DC's uh crisis, uh zero hour crisis in time.
00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:52.880
Um and I've mentioned Hawaii and London, it's like, oh Matt would travel everywhere.
00:25:53.119 --> 00:26:01.519
That was as a kid, and then there was many years where it was like no more of those trips because those cost way too much.
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:13.759
But yeah, there was a stretch of time, maybe when I got to middle school through high school, that I was wasn't really reading uh comic books um or buying any new ones, and it was just continuously rereading the old ones that I had.
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:35.359
But I think when I got to college, it probably was my junior and senior year, where I kind of went through like more of like identity and belonging and what's the meaning of life, and somehow I'm like maybe I can find some of that in these stories in comic books.
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:49.599
And you know, so I started just buying trades of um, I remember a lot of it was like DC trades of Teen Titans and and also the uh it was like the outsiders.
00:26:49.759 --> 00:27:05.039
A uh Nightwing was um who, if you don't know, he's is Dick Grayson, he used to be the original Robin, but then he started um leading a new team, and um uh they had an outsiders trade.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:10.160
And I'm reading some of these stories, and I'm getting emotional reading it.
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:33.759
And it just made me feel like Kami brought me back to when I was a kid and being inspired by some of these stories, and not that I did find the meaning of life in any of those, but it helped me get through uh certain dark times um in in college, which looking back, I'm like, uh, there really wasn't uh that dark of a time, but in the moment it felt like it is because everything just feels like the weight of the world's on you.
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:39.279
Yeah, you know, well, and I'm I'm gonna clue in some folks who might be like, I don't know what trade means.
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:55.200
Um so you have the individual issue of the comic book that comes out typically monthly or whatever, um, and then eventually, like if it's a five or six issue arc of a story, um they will collect them and they'll put them in a what's frequently referred to as a trade paperback.
00:27:55.359 --> 00:28:06.240
Um, one of the things I learned uh primarily through my Star Wars fandom in college, uh is that there are people who buy the individual issues and then there are people who wait on the trade paperback collection.
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:21.920
Uh and trade waiting sometimes, at least in the era that I really really leaned into comic book collecting, um, which was sort of college and post-college, um trade waiters are why uh local comic books struggle.
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:27.680
Uh, because what local comic book stores want you doing is coming in every week looking for the new issue and that kind of stuff.
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:37.359
And and I I had to make the decision to be a trade waiter uh in college because I couldn't buy comics and I would be drawn into any story I saw.
00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:56.160
So um Star Wars in college, in particular 1997 to 1999, I purchased everything that was in print, um, Star Wars wise, whether collected in a trade paperback or um single issues, and and uh and that's what got me back into comic books um for uh for a big part of it.
00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:37.680
Um the other thing that um as Matt as you're telling the story that I was thinking about is that um the the idea that this character um and like the I don't know like the arc and their development and the sort of the new fresh version of them, Nightwing formerly being Robin, um, you know, those were the things that just activated my uh imagination uh is a new little spin on uh on someone we already know, just a different perspective, just a different version, maybe a different reality or a different artist or a different writer.
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:50.640
Um, and it was just one of the things that as I came out of undergraduate and started working full-time and had a little bit more expendable income and didn't have kids yet, I was like, oh, there's so much out there.
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:58.319
I think that's another thing that overwhelms folks about comic books, especially if you think of comic books through like the Marvel cinematic universe and all the films.
00:29:58.400 --> 00:29:59.680
There's just so much to keep up with.
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:08.799
I'm like, find yourself a little pocket, find yourself an artist or a writer, um, find a character you like, and uh and I'm sure you'll have everything that you're looking for.
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:10.960
You don't have to know all the other stuff for sure.
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:22.640
Yeah, I I got more into trades because like Amazon came about and I'm in college and I'm like, I got my credit card, let me just start buying all these different trades.
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:24.559
I mean, and and I get it, yes.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:32.720
I I guess I've contributed to comic book stores closing uh because I I didn't want to go and buy uh the individual issues.
00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:39.599
I wanted to just it's kind of like when you when you binge watch a a TV show, even though like it might come out week to week with the episodes.
00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:45.440
I'm more of one where sometimes I'm like, I'll just wait until everything's out and then I'm just gonna watch all of it.
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:50.720
Um, but with purchasing trades, it's also cost effective as well.
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:53.440
And I'm like, I'm a starving college student.
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:57.839
Like, yes, I guess if I didn't buy the comics, I could buy you know more than just ramen.
00:30:58.240 --> 00:31:01.519
But um, you know, it it is what it is.
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:25.680
But I was also in college, um, aside from buying some of the newer trades, I was also um buying trades of some of those individual issues that I had that I brought that I when I was buying those comic book issues growing up, because I was like, now I really want to know what happened in the story that I only had part one of three or part three of three, and I didn't have the complete story.
00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:32.000
Now let me go and read it, find out what happens, and is it as exciting as I imagined it uh to be?
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:38.559
But I think as when I graduated college, I would continue to start, you know, continue reading those trades.
00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:46.880
But I think that's where I got more connected with um some of these characters because I was trying to kind of understand myself better.
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:53.039
And you know, we were talking about Nightwing, formerly Robin, but there was the third Robin, which is Tim Drake.
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:58.079
And this goes to the Batman Nightfall uh trade that I read.
00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:18.960
And through some of those issues and other issues I read about um that third Robin, like he never wanted to be Robin, he just wanted to, he actually wanted uh Nightwing to go back to being Robin to help Batman because it was a time where Batman was just kind of all over the place, angry.
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:28.160
And um he felt that Nightwing would give a sense of calmness and help Batman remember why he's doing what he's doing.
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:31.680
And eventually um Tim Drake becomes Robin.
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:34.799
But he also never wanted to be like the star or anything.
00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:40.319
He really wanted to be that psychic to really just help out and give balance and help where he could.
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:47.279
And that connected with me because it's like I've as I've told many people, like I've never wanted to be an administrator, still don't.
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:51.839
I like what I do where I get to help in students individually.
00:32:52.240 --> 00:33:02.880
Um, but it's never one where I'm trying to get to that top place, or I'm doing this so I can build my resume so I can move on to do this, or or whatever it might be.
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:08.640
So I've always felt like that connection uh to Tim Drake, to that third Robin.
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:09.279
Yeah.
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:15.839
And you know, there's like I said, there are folks who are like, wait, isn't there just a Batman and a Robin?
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:18.720
That's like, well, welcome to the world of comic books.
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:22.240
Um Welcome to decades of comic book stores.
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:22.720
Yeah.
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:30.799
Well, and you know, that if if you own a company um where uh creative intellectual property is your product, you want as much of it out there as possible.
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:46.240
And there are especially um the kids who grew up uh in the 60s and 70s on sort of the silver and uh golden age comics, and they started uh making this new era of comic books, and then there's a whole group of people who grew up with that.
00:33:46.400 --> 00:34:00.000
Um, and uh Matt and I just happened to be growing up and and coming to understand ourselves as people at like that third generation of comic book creators, and it was it was uh very quickly becoming big business.
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:15.599
A lot of folks were realizing um the money that can be made behind it, and then significant exploitative practices and difficult working conditions, some of which have started to um reveal themselves in the the movie industry for comic book movies as well, too.
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:38.239
And you know, I think anybody who is a big fan of something and spends enough time around it and really engaging with it, they'll start to see where people can kind of mess it up and you can lose a little bit of the joy of creation and the um the power of the story, and and and you started to see the business side of it, um, and it loses a little bit of its shine.
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:48.480
And um, I can tell you conclusively for me that it was those indie titles um where I started uh to find that um joy again.
00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:53.039
Um I got big time into Hellboy, um, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
00:34:53.119 --> 00:35:00.880
Of course, I grew up with the cartoons, but um, you know, revisiting uh sort of their origin and and how they got started and stuff.
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:14.960
And um sometimes it's not the big um comic book companies uh where folks are gonna find their uh their real connection to uh visual narratives in sort of graphic um uh novel format.
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:28.239
And I know the the nerds at your comic book shops would love to introduce you to some of those less um big name um you know movie title kind of characters and and show you the whole range of what's out there.
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:38.800
It's uh it really is um an amazing time to be a comic book fan and to connect with um the visual narrative storytelling of of graphic novels for sure.
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:52.719
Um but yeah, I think no matter which character it is, which comic, if it's mainstream, indie, or whatnot, like there's connections to be made and that connect really to real life um in our lives.
00:35:53.039 --> 00:36:10.559
And and I think this kind of leads into why we did the imposter syndrome one is I think for the for mostly everyone, I would assume a large majority of us, whether we're in higher ed or not, have experienced imposter syndrome or continue uh to experience imposter syndrome.
00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:25.920
Um I know for me the character that I connected with most regarding that um is one of the Green Lanterns, uh Kyle Rayner, who this was during like the 93, 1993, 1994, maybe earlier, I don't know.
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:30.079
But it was uh DC kind of tried to shake things up with their characters.
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:40.800
Like, you know, they killed off Superman, they broke Batman's back, um, they made Hal Jordan the most well-known Green Lantern at that time, uh, go insane.
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:46.639
And so Kyle Rayner was the newest Green Lantern, but wasn't really picked.
00:36:46.719 --> 00:37:01.519
It was just randomly the guardian who had a Green Lantern ring and went and ran out of uh energy or strength and really just dropped this ring off to this random person who happened to be Kyle Rayner.
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:14.400
And he kind of had to learn the ropes of being a hero and what to actually do uh with this ring where he can create these uh constructs of anything he can imagine.
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:23.039
And I think that kind of related to me when you get dropped into certain uh job responsibilities where you don't really get trained on it and you just sink or swim.
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:26.480
And that was a big um kind of learning point.
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:31.119
But also this person, uh this character, Kyle, was also an artist.
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:41.840
So this kind of goes, I think, to the the comic book visuals is he was creating these most amazing constructs uh from his imagination.
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:48.400
And that kind of helped me with like, well, we can be creative and be imaginative in a lot of things that that we do.
00:37:48.800 --> 00:38:13.280
But him being able to read his stories and kind of see his arc of starting out not knowing anything, kind of live and learn experiences, sink or swim, having to earn the respect and trust from the mainstream DC characters, you know, it was something where I feel like that's something all of us can can connect with and something I still connect with uh to this day.
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:40.400
Yeah, you know, I when Matt uh suggested this idea for this poster, um uh of course I wanted to reimagine my understanding of imposter syndrome as not just the human experience, but the ways that we can start, I don't know, maybe identifying steps to take, right?
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:58.159
And and it was far easier for me to think of the characters and how they process that feeling of I might not be the the right one for the job, or I may not be um particularly equipped for, or people may not accept me as.
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:16.719
Um, and I uh really found uh a lot of resonance with the stories of Kamala Khan, uh sort of the new Miss Marvel, um, but then also um uh Sam Wilson's Captain America when he changed from being Falcon to uh taking on the mantle of Captain America.
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:25.280
And you know, I fully recognize that you know most places um as far as work and higher ed and and and the world are made for people like me.
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:45.840
Um, but there's a lot of expectation there uh to be just, um, to to use power um equitably but appropriately, and you know, both of those characters struggle with um the weight of expectation um and and whether or not folks will accept them or not.
00:39:46.000 --> 00:40:16.880
Uh and and I really do remember as we were preparing uh for our poster session revisiting um Sam and uh Kamala and understanding their stories as they're told uh by different writers and in different versions, um, and just finding some real hopefulness in adopting a mentality of positivity and belief in others' goodness uh in the face of not being sure if I'm really the person who should be doing this.
00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:27.199
Um, there's amazing examples of folks who just use what is inherently good about them uh to try to activate what is inherently good about other people.
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:45.519
And if you're if you're listening and like, uh, is this really you know, look, any superhero, any character, I guess you could say, like we as advising professionals or our students, we all kind of have these doubts, fears, um, feeling like we don't belong.
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:54.639
Um, but I think if anything, it's like if you you can see these characters as or see ourselves in these characters.
00:40:54.800 --> 00:41:00.719
I mean, not necessarily maybe in their power set or whatever, but we can share in their struggles.
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:05.360
Uh, we can share in their wins, in their successes, their lived experiences.
00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:19.119
And I think if anything in professional development trainings, something like this could be uh like an easy way for people to have a basic foundation and maybe a fun way to dive into these concepts.
00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:25.440
Um, you can even take these characters and connect it to like an advising theory or you know, whatever you want.
00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:31.039
And it could be something fun, especially if it's a topic that might be a little bit more serious.
00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:36.960
This could be something that might be able to give some of more of that engagement to participants as well.
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:49.840
Yeah, one of the things that um we had posed as a possible question for our discussion today was um like what is it that comic books offer that other narrative sources sometimes don't?
00:41:49.920 --> 00:42:00.719
And I do think it's sort of lowering that bar of I don't know, pressure or seriousness or um, you know, academic feeling or whatever.
00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:07.440
You know, sometimes what people need is something recognizable and easy um to start the big conversations.
00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:21.840
Um what Matt and I experienced in our um first collaboration around a comic book, the Umbrella Academy, um, was just how uh excited people were to start thinking about academic advising.
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:29.360
And specifically, we were talking about strengths-based advising then, um, through the lens of the Umbrella uh Academy characters.
00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:31.679
Um, we did it because we enjoyed it.
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:35.039
We like Umbrella Academy, we like academic advising.
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:49.199
It was natural and easy for us, but we didn't know what those folks in the room would think of it, and uh and it was so much fun to be in a uh presentation setting where we're trying to say, Hey, come with us.
00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:52.639
And people were like, Those steps are easy to make.
00:42:52.800 --> 00:43:00.079
Um, I'm not having to interpret through a lens of a published article or a journal or you know, being serious.
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:03.039
I'm like, I can talk about a character that I know right away.
00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:10.559
Um, and that kind of access, I think, is one of the things that comic books provide that other structures don't.
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:15.199
You know, there's a representation of the character, there's a visual element to it.
00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:23.599
Um, they've been around forever, we know who they are, and even if we don't like them or spend a lot of time with them, we have an impression of them and we can start there.
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:45.599
And that was I just remember um sort of how exciting it was to be at the front of a group of learners who were excited to learn and discuss and and share their own ideas, and I don't believe that it had anything to do with Matt or I, and it had everything to do with starting at an accessible point.
00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:57.760
Um, somewhere in the scholarship of um popular culture references, um, there's this idea that this is a public pedagogy, this is a shared narrative that is an easy access point for anybody.
00:43:57.840 --> 00:43:59.760
And um, and I just remember feeling.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:09.920
Feeling so validated when uh other far more qualified people have said, Yeah, that's why this works, is because we're starting from the same understanding point.
00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:10.719
Yeah.
00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:19.440
And it's one where, you know, let's say you do have this conference idea and want to present on it, and you're like, well, are people gonna know about it or not?
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:20.800
That's fine.
00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:27.199
Um, you might have people that might go to your session because it just sounded like it sounded interesting.
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:41.039
Um, now whether we've presented on it, we've done a training on it, typically we also do um a slide or two where we're doing more of an introduction um to these characters or to a comic or movie or whatever it might be.
00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:51.280
That way anyone else in the room who doesn't know can get caught up, get caught up to speed on that particular pop culture reference or whatever it might be.
00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:57.119
And those that already know about it, they just get to enjoy hearing about it again.
00:44:57.280 --> 00:44:58.880
It's like watching a reaction video.
00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:04.559
Well, and you know, what Matt just described, other people would describe as a literature review.
00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:11.519
Um, if if you're bringing people up to speed on what's happened with this character, you're doing your literature review at the beginning of your presentation.
00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:29.119
Um Yeah, I remember um back in January because we we did the virtual appreciative uh education advising conference, and uh we did one on the karate kid and how that can connect with learning about uh the appreciative advising approach.
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:43.519
And if you're listening to this and it's not uh you're not it's not the conference time yet for the Nakata annual conference and you're going, come see our poster session on the Karate Kid and Appreciative Advising Shameless plug there.
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:55.119
But we uh when we presented, uh we did uh an overview of the Karate Kid movie um just because we're then gonna talk about appreciative advising all the different phases.
00:45:55.360 --> 00:46:12.000
And I remember one of the um participants that attended uh put in the chat or mentioned it afterwards and said thanks to us, um, because they had never watched the movie, they kind of knew about it, but it was great uh for them to learn about it to then go into the actual theory.
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:15.840
So they kind of felt they were caught up and they understood what was going on.
00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:28.960
So yeah, if even if um your attendees don't know anything about the um comic or the pop culture reference you're using, you can take a little bit of time just to explain it in the beginning.
00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:30.239
Yeah, absolutely.
00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:42.800
And you know, the activation of the the learner, the listener, um uh it it starts with that setting the tone of here's where we're coming from.
00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:59.920
Uh and it has just been um one of the most evident things in the time that I've spent in pop culture spaces, um blending it with academic advising, uh, that the barrier to that activation is extraordinarily low.
00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:08.559
So I guess as we maybe tie everything back to to comic books, um, do you have a favorite comic book character characters?
00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:18.000
Yeah, my so as a longtime Star Wars fan, um, people will often ask me what's my favorite Star Wars movie, and my standard answer uh was always the next one.
00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:40.480
Um, and that I I'm always interested in um, you know, a new interpretation on um somebody or somebody's uh fresh new idea on a concept, but I I will say um probably the character whose total storyline I like the best is Silver Surfer.
00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:57.039
Um there is something just really uh just wild about the idea that this person who's supposed to be an alien, by the way, not from Earth, um, would uh receive this incredible power, um, the the power cosmic.
00:47:57.280 --> 00:48:00.559
Basically, anything you want the character to do, he should be able to do.
00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:06.079
Um, and the the surfboard comes out somehow.
00:48:06.320 --> 00:48:26.159
The there's this goofiness to that sort of incredible power and uh big picture, but the the character uh who originated the surfer is named Noran Rad, and he sacrifices everything that he had, even though he was a little, I would say, dissatisfied with life in a idyllic, you know, perfect world.
00:48:26.320 --> 00:48:37.840
Um, he sacrifices his life, um, becomes the herald of Galactus, the planet eater, um, so that his planet and his uh people that he loves would be spared.
00:48:37.920 --> 00:48:41.840
Um, and then he becomes this sort of immortal, what do I do?
00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:55.119
And he throws off um being a part of um destruction and tries to be a hero, uh, and also um is really cool looking, you know, just has a great visual.
00:48:55.199 --> 00:48:56.559
Uh, I think that really helps.
00:48:56.639 --> 00:48:59.760
Uh, don't need a logo, you know, just be you.
00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:02.719
You know, I don't need a brand, I just need to be me.
00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:04.639
And that really resonated with me too.
00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:05.760
How about you?
00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:13.760
Yeah, so I kind of go back to the Tim Drake Robin, but I think um Batman is probably one of my favorites in DC.
00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:17.519
Um, just because for the most part, he's always five steps ahead.
00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:25.119
He's always considering every every scenario, um, which I kind of relate to, but then sometimes it can be a little stressful doing that.
00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:36.000
But from Marvel, and I've said this on another uh podcast when uh with Magumi uh when she was on, but she asked me about that, and I said uh for Marvel it was Cyclops of the X-Men.
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:44.239
Uh, not because he he was the leader of the X-Men, but he was someone that he tried to make sure that everyone was taken care of.
00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:52.559
Um, and he was kind of like Batman trying to be five steps ahead, um trying to save you know the mutant race, essentially.
00:49:52.880 --> 00:50:04.079
And he was someone that people say can be very boring and dry, but he doesn't care, you know, he's always looking at what's the goal, and um, I've always appreciated that.
00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:26.800
And I think if anything too, kind of maybe related to X-Men, um, if you have if if you think of like a comic book team, you might be able to compare that to people in your office, and that maybe that also helps with how you work with with others uh within your office or how you work with students or connect with with people that um you need to collaborate with.
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:28.880
Yeah, so many connections.
00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:37.039
And you know, as we wrap this up, I just I just want to note that comic books remind us that people are never finished stories.
00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:42.239
Every issue, every volume, every reboot offers another opportunity for growth.
00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:54.320
Academic advising is built on the same assumption that students are not defined by who they are today, advisors are not defined by the institution they work for, but by the possibilities of who they're becoming.
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:56.320
The stories we tell matter.
00:50:56.480 --> 00:51:05.119
Comic books often illustrate the potential of personal transformation, and advisors can help students author the next chapter of their lives.
00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:06.239
Love it.
00:51:06.400 --> 00:51:07.920
I have nothing else to add to that.
00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:09.519
That's the perfect way to end it.
00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:11.199
So thanks for listening.
00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:12.800
All right, we'll see you next time.
