Exposing Brandy “Hellville” and the Nickelodeon Scandals: Journalist Kate Taylor 的完整文字稿

00:01:54.250 the Holistic Goddess website. It's been a fantastic addition to 36 00:01:54.290 --> 00:01:56.870 my self-care and it might just be what you need too. 37 00:01:57.209 --> 00:02:01.450 For more info, visit holisticgoddess.com and discover how castor oil 38 00:02:01.489 --> 00:02:05.700 can support your wellness journey today. Use my code UNDERSTOOD 39 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:10.099 for a special discount of 15% off. Welcome back to Misunderstood. 40 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:12.800 I'm your host, Rachel Uchitel. I'm really excited for you 41 00:02:12.979 --> 00:02:16.469 guys to listen to today's episode. Today, we're sitting down 42 00:02:16.509 --> 00:02:20.330 with Kate Taylor. She is the senior features correspondent for 43 00:02:20.430 --> 00:02:24.770 Business Insider. Kate's known for her in-depth investigative work covering 44 00:02:24.889 --> 00:02:28.330 everything from business trends to major industry scandals. We'll be 45 00:02:28.370 --> 00:02:30.969 talking about her journey, how she found her way into journalism, 46 00:02:31.009 --> 00:02:33.270 what inspired her to become a writer, and what drives 47 00:02:33.310 --> 00:02:36.069 her passion for uncovering the stories that matter. We also 48 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:38.159 dig into two of her biggest stories that made a 49 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:41.439 huge impact. One exposing the scandal at Nickelodeon, which you 50 00:02:41.500 --> 00:02:44.199 may or may not have seen. Stuff about maybe it 51 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:48.340 was last year. And another one uncovering some shocking details 52 00:02:48.439 --> 00:02:52.439 about the fashion brand Brandy Melville. These investigations were so 53 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:54.719 powerful that they didn't just stay on the page. They 54 00:02:54.780 --> 00:02:58.020 turned into full-length documentaries. You guys really need to check 55 00:02:58.060 --> 00:03:00.340 them out. We're excited to hear from Kate about her career, 56 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:02.849 her approach to storytelling, and what it's like to break 57 00:03:02.909 --> 00:03:06.389 stories that can shake up entire industries. We also hear 58 00:03:06.509 --> 00:03:09.650 what she's going to be following and covering next. Please 59 00:03:09.689 --> 00:03:45.479 enjoy my conversation with the one and only Kate Taylor. Hey, Kate, 60 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:47.840 thank you so much for joining me on Misunderstood. How 61 00:03:47.919 --> 00:03:48.479 are you? 62 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:51.460 Yes, thank you for having me. I'm doing well. How 63 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:51.969 are you? 64 00:03:52.539 --> 00:03:54.810 I'm great. I feel like it's such an honor to 65 00:03:54.849 --> 00:03:57.729 meet you. You are such a well-respected journalist. And in 66 00:03:57.770 --> 00:04:00.330 this day and age, I feel like it's very hard 67 00:04:00.389 --> 00:04:03.860 to find actual people that do this for a living 68 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:07.439 because so many people have become journalists. in social media. 69 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:11.280 They're covering things like they have all the inside scoop 70 00:04:11.300 --> 00:04:13.699 when they're getting it from people like you. So I 71 00:04:13.719 --> 00:04:15.360 wanted to say thank you. And I wanted to have 72 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:18.639 you on to really talk about the details of how 73 00:04:18.759 --> 00:04:22.639 you kind of investigate stories, get them into print, and 74 00:04:22.660 --> 00:04:26.139 then how that translates on screen for us all to enjoy. 75 00:04:27.019 --> 00:04:28.850 So I think you're fascinating. So again, thank you. 76 00:04:29.290 --> 00:04:31.490 Yes, of course. And I love talking about kind of 77 00:04:31.529 --> 00:04:34.290 the process and helping illuminate how it all comes together. 78 00:04:34.790 --> 00:04:37.389 Yeah. So actually my first question is, I know you're 79 00:04:37.410 --> 00:04:40.790 at Columbia University right now, taking time out to do 80 00:04:40.829 --> 00:04:42.509 this fellowship. Can you tell us what you're doing there? 81 00:04:43.110 --> 00:04:46.060 Yes. I'm doing the Knight Badget Fellowship right now at Columbia, 82 00:04:46.100 --> 00:04:50.319 which is a fellowship for business journalists where we basically 83 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:52.680 go to Columbia Business School for a year. And it's 84 00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:55.839 an opportunity to kind of learn all of the wonky 85 00:04:55.899 --> 00:05:00.629 details about accounting and statistics and economics. And I've been 86 00:05:00.670 --> 00:05:06.589 reporting kind of on businesses, but mostly for a non-businessy 87 00:05:06.709 --> 00:05:09.889 audience for the last 10 years. So it was a 88 00:05:09.910 --> 00:05:11.910 chance to really go deeper and learn those hard skills, 89 00:05:12.009 --> 00:05:14.529 but also to meet a bunch of different people and 90 00:05:14.910 --> 00:05:18.329 kind of learn about how all of these people see 91 00:05:18.730 --> 00:05:20.550 business and see the world. So it's been a really 92 00:05:20.610 --> 00:05:22.839 interesting time and I've been really loving the chance to 93 00:05:22.860 --> 00:05:25.660 kind of go deep on these hard skills that I 94 00:05:25.819 --> 00:05:28.019 did not learn in college because I wanted to be 95 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:29.930 a writer and I never thought about being a business 96 00:05:29.970 --> 00:05:33.410 writer until it kind of ended up happening that way. Yeah. 97 00:05:33.509 --> 00:05:35.509 Business writing is such a different thing. So I worked 98 00:05:35.750 --> 00:05:38.290 at Bloomberg news for many years. And what I found 99 00:05:38.370 --> 00:05:41.430 is there were two different ways to go about like 100 00:05:41.490 --> 00:05:45.709 having that job. You had to learn television and news, 101 00:05:46.100 --> 00:05:48.480 but then you also, you know, the facets of what 102 00:05:48.500 --> 00:05:50.920 goes into breaking news and what goes into a story 103

00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:53.079 and the facts and being first and all that stuff. 104 00:05:53.709 --> 00:05:56.509 And then business is totally different. You have to you know, 105 00:05:56.529 --> 00:05:59.230 there has to be stuff about the company and the 106 00:05:59.290 --> 00:06:01.889 scandal that goes involved or like hitting their numbers or, 107 00:06:02.110 --> 00:06:04.870 you know, it's just such a different ballgame. So it 108 00:06:04.970 --> 00:06:06.990 is difficult. And I don't think people realize that. But 109 00:06:07.009 --> 00:06:11.250 people that are consuming entertainment news, you know, it's just 110 00:06:11.649 --> 00:06:15.100 it's just the dirty details that they care about, I think. 111 00:06:15.540 --> 00:06:17.980 So how did you get into wanting to be a 112 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:18.959 writer when you were younger? 113 00:06:19.850 --> 00:06:22.290 I was someone who I always loved writing. I loved 114 00:06:22.329 --> 00:06:25.569 reading so much. I think pretty much my entire career 115 00:06:25.589 --> 00:06:27.189 can be based on the fact that I just love 116 00:06:27.290 --> 00:06:30.629 to read. And in college, I majored in history. I 117 00:06:30.670 --> 00:06:33.209 was someone who loved that because I could read, I 118 00:06:33.250 --> 00:06:36.269 could write, I could read all these archival sources. But 119 00:06:36.329 --> 00:06:39.709 when I was graduating, I wasn't sure what I wanted 120 00:06:39.750 --> 00:06:42.670 to do with that degree necessarily. So I wanted a 121 00:06:42.689 --> 00:06:45.769 job where I could write every day, which ended up 122 00:06:45.860 --> 00:06:49.800 being an intern at Forbes magazine. So- that I really 123 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:52.730 ended up loving that. But I wasn't someone in college 124 00:06:52.750 --> 00:06:56.009 who was super involved in the school newspaper. I wrote 125 00:06:56.029 --> 00:06:57.990 an advice column. I wasn't someone who was doing these 126 00:06:58.449 --> 00:07:00.949 deep dive investigations who knew that that was going to 127 00:07:00.990 --> 00:07:03.240 be what I wanted to do with my life. It 128 00:07:03.250 --> 00:07:06.019 was more the writing and love of writing and research 129 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:09.060 came first. And then reporting kind of followed that. 130 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:13.100 So you're known as now the senior features correspondent at 131 00:07:13.220 --> 00:07:15.790 Business Insider. Can you talk about how you got that job? 132 00:07:16.660 --> 00:07:19.000 Yeah. So after college, I was at Forbes as an 133 00:07:19.060 --> 00:07:20.819 intern for a bit. Then I went from there to 134 00:07:20.980 --> 00:07:24.939 Entrepreneur Magazine where I ended up reporting on franchises. So 135 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:28.519 that's a lot of reporting on fast food, but other 136 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:32.639 franchises and franchises in general. And then Business Insider around 137 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:36.259 2015 reached

out to me and said, hey, we want 138 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:39.220 someone to write about the business of fast food. And 139 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:42.160 I had some background doing that. And I loved writing 140 00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:44.490 about fast food as a business because I think that 141 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:48.410 that's something that everyone can relate to and everyone's interested in. 142 00:07:48.430 --> 00:07:52.000 I think you understand having worked at Bloomberg that all 143 00:07:52.019 --> 00:07:54.819 of these companies, there's so much inherent drama and interesting 144 00:07:54.899 --> 00:07:58.439 stories there. But I think that for a lot of readers, 145 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:01.240 it doesn't feel super immediate to them or it doesn't 146 00:08:01.259 --> 00:08:03.819 feel relevant to them. And fast food, it's one of 147 00:08:03.860 --> 00:08:06.629 those business stories that does feel relevant to everyone because 148 00:08:06.649 --> 00:08:08.990 people can be like, okay, I don't care that much 149 00:08:09.170 --> 00:08:13.329 about the CEO or like what does inflation mean to me? 150 00:08:13.949 --> 00:08:15.490 But then when you say, oh, this is going to 151 00:08:15.529 --> 00:08:18.170 increase the price of your hamburger by this much, that 152 00:08:18.470 --> 00:08:19.889 impacts everyone across the country. 153 00:08:20.670 --> 00:08:20.870 Yeah. 154 00:08:20.990 --> 00:08:23.209 You know, it's interesting. I think in fast food, people 155 00:08:23.269 --> 00:08:25.920 started paying attention, or at least I started paying attention 156 00:08:25.939 --> 00:08:28.259 a lot more when that guy, now I'm going to 157 00:08:28.300 --> 00:08:30.879 forget his name. He's dead now from cancer, but Morgan, 158 00:08:31.139 --> 00:08:32.820 something Morgan's, Morgan Spurlock. 159 00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:33.179 Oh, yes. 160 00:08:33.220 --> 00:08:34.919 Yeah, yeah. The fast food. 161 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:35.700 Yes. 162 00:08:36.409 --> 00:08:38.299 And what was that called? Fast food. 163 00:08:38.340 --> 00:08:39.100 Yeah. 164 00:08:39.139 --> 00:08:43.379 Yeah. And that was a crazy inside look into what 165 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:47.600 fast food does for you. I mean, that's one specific angle. But, 166 00:08:48.100 --> 00:08:49.899 you know, I found it fascinating. And then I think 167 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:52.519 people are kind of wondering, did he die early because 168 00:08:52.860 --> 00:08:57.370 of his exposure to fast food? Were you in were 169 00:08:57.389 --> 00:09:00.710 you doing the covering of that stuff when that movie 170 00:09:00.730 --> 00:09:01.009 came out? 171 00:09:01.590 --> 00:09:03.110 I was a little bit after the movie, but I 172 00:09:03.149 --> 00:09:05.570 think that the impact of that movie was so great 173 00:09:05.710 --> 00:09:09.269 on the industry where for so long, I think these 174 00:09:09.309 --> 00:09:12.669 companies were like, okay, all customers want is like, how 175 00:09:12.730 --> 00:09:14.129 much bang can they get for their buck? Can they 176 00:09:14.169 --> 00:09:16.669 get more, more, more for less money? And then that 177 00:09:16.710 --> 00:09:18.519 movie came out and people were like, actually, this is 178 00:09:19.169 --> 00:09:21.100 really bad for us. Like, maximize. 179 00:09:21.409 --> 00:09:25.000 Like what you hear? Tune into USL All Access live 180 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:28.159 every Tuesday at 8 p.m. Eastern on Sirius XM FC 181 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:32.269 channel 188 for exclusive interviews and the latest from around 182 00:09:32.289 --> 00:09:36.509 the USL. The exclusive satellite radio home of the USL. 183 00:09:36.929 --> 00:09:41.669 Sirius XM FC. is North America's only 24-7 source for 184 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:46.120 engaging soccer talk and live matches from the USL, Premier League, 185 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:50.600 and more. All on Sirius XM FC channel 188 and 186 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:51.950 the Sirius XM app. 187 00:09:51.950 --> 00:09:54.330 Guessing how many calories we can get for the least 188 00:09:54.330 --> 00:09:56.779 amount of dollars is actually harmful, and like, that is 189 00:09:56.840 --> 00:09:58.559 not a good deal. That is a bad deal for 190 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:02.080 us in an entirely different way. So when I started 191 00:10:02.139 --> 00:10:05.080 reporting on fast food, it was a bit more of like, okay, 192 00:10:05.139 --> 00:10:08.490 how do we win customers over while not just making 193 00:10:08.710 --> 00:10:12.029 it really, really cheap to consume a ton of calories? 194 00:10:12.350 --> 00:10:14.289 And I think that they're still trying to figure that out. 195 00:10:14.389 --> 00:10:17.970 It's interesting. I mean, in the pandemic, all of these 196 00:10:18.009 --> 00:10:21.269 places just stopped serving salads. And I think that they 197 00:10:21.330 --> 00:10:23.350 still haven't brought back the salads at a lot of 198 00:10:23.389 --> 00:10:26.789 places because it was everyone added salads to the menu 199 00:10:27.090 --> 00:10:28.789 in part to be like, oh, no, we can be 200 00:10:28.809 --> 00:10:33.769 a healthy choice. But it's this interesting balance where these 201 00:10:33.820 --> 00:10:37.419 type of companies, they have customers who say they want 202 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:40.480 to be healthy. But in reality, do they actually want 203 00:10:40.500 --> 00:10:43.320 to be healthy? And I think that it's a difficult 204 00:10:43.340 --> 00:10:46.600 business decision to distinguish what people say they want versus 205 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:47.460 what they really want. 206 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:49.820 Do you think they're, I'm just curious, do you think 207 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:52.590 they're really catering to people that don't, you know, that 208 00:10:52.649 --> 00:10:56.850 cannot afford going out to regular, you know, to supermarkets 209 00:10:56.909 --> 00:10:59.779 and spending that kind of money and, you know, going

210 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:01.820 out to eat? I mean, are we talking about a 211 00:11:01.940 --> 00:11:05.700 much more low economic rate? group of people or that, 212 00:11:05.779 --> 00:11:09.789 you know, is fast food catering to everyone and just 213 00:11:09.809 --> 00:11:11.990 trying to make it edible. And that's why they're putting 214 00:11:12.029 --> 00:11:13.759 so much sugar in because you get addicted to it. 215 00:11:14.210 --> 00:11:15.809 I mean, there's so many different things that I. 216 00:11:15.809 --> 00:11:18.870 Know there's so much there. It's fascinating. And it's a 217 00:11:18.929 --> 00:11:21.450 little bit different for different chains. I think that they 218 00:11:21.570 --> 00:11:24.389 ultimately are trying to cater to everyone. And like, yeah, 219 00:11:24.429 --> 00:11:27.360 that is always the goal, because if you have a 220 00:11:27.379 --> 00:11:29.799 customer who is only going there because it's the only 221 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:32.299 thing they can afford, then if you raise prices a 222 00:11:32.340 --> 00:11:34.360 little bit, then you lose them and then you don't 223 00:11:34.379 --> 00:11:37.009 have anyone shopping there. So I think all of them 224 00:11:37.049 --> 00:11:40.929 are trying to maximize, but it is sometimes, I mean, 225 00:11:41.029 --> 00:11:44.429 when the economy is tough, you have more people going 226 00:11:44.490 --> 00:11:47.230 to McDonald's for a little bit of time. Like it's 227 00:11:47.330 --> 00:11:49.669 all this kind of like interesting series of checks and 228 00:11:49.710 --> 00:11:53.820 balances there where it's a fascinating business to write about. 229 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:56.419 And I really enjoyed writing about it. And then I 230 00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:59.929 kind of went from that to doing more long form features. 231 00:12:00.149 --> 00:12:02.830 And then that turned into doing more investigations as well. 232 00:12:02.870 --> 00:12:05.269 And I mean, one of the first big long form 233 00:12:05.289 --> 00:12:09.080 things I did was about McDonald's CEO, who was basically 234 00:12:09.220 --> 00:12:12.720 ousted in this sex scandal where it was all of 235 00:12:12.779 --> 00:12:16.440 this wild kind of behind the scenes stuff that you 236 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:20.179 expect for a company that's a little bit more hip 237 00:12:20.500 --> 00:12:25.399 than McDonald's, but it's happening. It was such a wild 238 00:12:25.509 --> 00:12:28.320 story and, And I was like, what is actually going 239 00:12:28.409 --> 00:12:31.419 on here? So that was one that one of my 240 00:12:31.460 --> 00:12:33.019 first bigger features. 241 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:35.440 So had the news come out that he was already 242 00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:37.100 ousted and then you were like, let me go down 243 00:12:37.139 --> 00:12:38.600 this rabbit hole and see what happened? 244 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:42.659 Yes. And that was kind of, he was ousted very suddenly. 245 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:46.429 And then months later, he was ousted for kind of 246 00:12:46.690 --> 00:12:49.570 inappropriate relationships with one woman. And then months later, it 247 00:12:49.610 --> 00:12:51.629 came out that there had been other women at McDonald's 248 00:12:52.070 --> 00:12:55.830 that he had been having kind of exchanging sexual messages 249 00:12:55.870 --> 00:12:58.929 and photos with. And one of the women apparently had 250 00:12:59.029 --> 00:13:05.000 received kind of preferential treatment as a result. So it was, 251 00:13:05.009 --> 00:13:08.279 I kind of just talked to everyone I could. I 252 00:13:08.740 --> 00:13:11.220 think that there were still, I would love to revisit 253 00:13:11.259 --> 00:13:14.559 that story because I still have questions about what exactly happened. 254 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:16.860 But among the people I talked to, I talked to 255 00:13:16.899 --> 00:13:20.750 his former girlfriend, the CEO's former girlfriend to be like, 256 00:13:21.299 --> 00:13:23.570 what happened here? Like, what was this guy like? And 257 00:13:23.590 --> 00:13:26.570 just something I always enjoy in reporting is trying to 258 00:13:26.629 --> 00:13:31.250 understand the human motivations behind these decisions, especially when they're 259 00:13:31.299 --> 00:13:35.059 inexplicable or bad decisions. So just like, why would someone 260 00:13:35.100 --> 00:13:38.909 who has his dream job blow it up in this manner? 261 00:13:40.710 --> 00:13:43.690 You know, running a business can be challenging, especially when 262 00:13:43.710 --> 00:13:47.100 it comes to managing sales and making sure everything runs smoothly. 263 00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:49.740 That's where Shopify has made all the difference for me. 264 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:54.139 For our misunderstood merch, Shopify has been a game changer. Before, 265 00:13:54.210 --> 00:13:56.769 we struggled with keeping track of orders and making the 266 00:13:56.809 --> 00:14:00.490 buying business seamless for our fans. but now everything's in 267 00:14:00.610 --> 00:14:04.120 one place. The checkout process, super smooth, just like we 268 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:06.519 want it to be for our audience. 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understood. Yeah. Well, 277 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.379 I mean, I think from a very surface level, you know, 278 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:50.600 answer of that, it seems common. I hate to even 279 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:52.620 use that word, but people with a lot of power 280 00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:54.409 think that they can get a lot away with a 281 00:14:54.419 --> 00:14:56.990 lot of things. And also that power becomes, I think, 282 00:14:57.049 --> 00:14:59.429 intoxicating to them. I don't know what this guy looks like. 283 00:14:59.490 --> 00:15:01.389 I don't know what his past was, but I'm assuming 284 00:15:01.730 --> 00:15:04.830 that he went from one level of being a dude, 285 00:15:05.110 --> 00:15:07.279 you know, to like a CEO of a company with 286 00:15:07.299 --> 00:15:09.159 a lot of money. And I don't know what he 287 00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:11.080 looked like, but his bank account probably looked good to 288 00:15:11.100 --> 00:15:14.179 a lot of people. And therefore he could entertain different 289 00:15:14.220 --> 00:15:17.279 people that he couldn't have before, maybe. I mean, that's 290 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:20.419 simplifying it a lot, but that's what sounds like happens 291 00:15:20.580 --> 00:15:22.580 in many of these situations. And they think that they 292 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:26.000 could get away with stuff that they eventually can't. So 293 00:15:27.419 --> 00:15:29.259 it becomes interesting. I just want to go back to 294 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:31.779 the fast food stuff for one second, because I'm fascinated 295 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:33.899 by it. I go to fast food chains because I 296 00:15:33.899 --> 00:15:35.360 have a 12 year old daughter. And when I pick 297 00:15:35.379 --> 00:15:37.360 her and her friends up at school, They want to 298 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:39.990 go to different places. And what I have realized is 299 00:15:40.049 --> 00:15:43.769 that customer service does matter. I've actually said it out 300 00:15:43.830 --> 00:15:46.570 loud because when I go to Chick-fil-A, I feel like 301 00:15:46.610 --> 00:15:50.149 it's a completely different experience than going to a McDonald's 302 00:15:50.789 --> 00:15:52.669 or even a Dunkin' Donuts. Do you know what I mean? 303 00:15:52.710 --> 00:15:55.129 And Dunkin' Donuts is a franchise and maybe Chick-fil-A is too. 304 00:15:55.210 --> 00:15:58.220 I don't know. You would know. But so I do 305 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:00.240 think that's made a big difference. I don't love the 306 00:16:00.259 --> 00:16:02.240 food at Chick-fil-A, but I'm like, we're going to go 307 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:05.419 there because it's run like a real restaurant. Like I've 308 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:09.679 told the manager over before, not in a drive-thru, but 309 00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:11.519 like in a place. And I'm like, you run this 310 00:16:11.590 --> 00:16:14.190 place like superb. It's amazing. 311 00:16:14.789 --> 00:16:18.090 Chick-fil-A is such an interesting

case study because it is 312 00:16:18.190 --> 00:16:20.549 actually because of how its franchise model is. And it's 313 00:16:20.629 --> 00:16:24.220 different than other chains like McDonald's is franchised. Dunkin' is franchised. 314 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:28.350 Chick-fil-A is franchised, but each franchisee can only have one location. 315 00:16:28.899 --> 00:16:31.029 So in a lot of ways, it is more similar 316 00:16:31.049 --> 00:16:34.350 to a mom and pop restaurant, like a normal independent restaurant, 317 00:16:34.370 --> 00:16:38.690 because that franchisee, this one location is their entire job, 318 00:16:38.750 --> 00:16:41.720 making sure everything is run right and making sure kind 319 00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:45.600 of everyone acts in the way that they're supposed to act. 320 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:48.240 And like customer service is such a big thing for 321 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:51.399 Chick-fil-A and they're able to, like I'm sure every restaurant 322 00:16:51.419 --> 00:16:54.129 chain would be like, wow, I wish our employees were 323 00:16:54.210 --> 00:16:57.750 kind of so consistently polite. But you can't really make 324 00:16:57.809 --> 00:17:00.789 that happen when you're a franchisee who has dozens of 325 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:03.620 locations and you're not in stores every day. And you 326 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:07.740 aren't paying your employees that much. People are not going 327 00:17:07.779 --> 00:17:09.660 to be that on it if they don't feel like 328 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:12.720 someone is paying attention to them and they aren't being 329 00:17:12.759 --> 00:17:16.599 paid that much. So I think that Chick-fil-A has really 330 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:19.559 done an amazing job in terms of thinking about that, 331 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:22.750 in terms of customer service. They've regularly kind of rate 332 00:17:22.849 --> 00:17:24.509 at the top of all of the chains for that. 333 00:17:25.089 --> 00:17:27.930 And they are one of the most profitable fast food 334 00:17:27.950 --> 00:17:30.410 chains as a result. And I think a big reason 335 00:17:30.430 --> 00:17:32.769 that they're the most profitable is that customer service. 336 00:17:33.329 --> 00:17:37.609 Yeah, amazing. And it's definitely noticeable. Okay, so one of 337 00:17:37.630 --> 00:17:39.730 the big things where you came into my life as 338 00:17:39.789 --> 00:17:41.710 I saw you on the screen for a couple of 339 00:17:41.730 --> 00:17:45.329 different reasons, one of them really started with the Brandy 340 00:17:45.470 --> 00:17:49.670 Melville scandal and it was a docu-series, documentary, whatever it was. 341 00:17:50.220 --> 00:17:51.440 Yes, yeah, documentary. 342 00:17:52.470 --> 00:17:55.099 And so- Tell us about that because I don't know 343 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:58.269 that as many people as, you know, I've brought it 344 00:17:58.309 --> 00:18:00.250 up to a couple of people. Some people, of course, 345 00:18:00.269 --> 00:18:04.109 know

Brandy Melville, do not know about the scandal and 346 00:18:04.170 --> 00:18:08.130 haven't yet seen it on TV, which they should. It's fascinating. 347 00:18:08.250 --> 00:18:10.599 I mean, we all grew up kind of knowing about it, 348 00:18:10.650 --> 00:18:13.109 wanting to fit it in their clothes. My daughter still 349 00:18:13.130 --> 00:18:16.099 to this day talks about it. So can you fill 350 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:19.240 our listeners in on, you know, what this store is 351 00:18:19.299 --> 00:18:22.279 or what this company is and how this scandal came about? 352 00:18:22.940 --> 00:18:27.200 Yeah, so Brandy Melville is this teen retailer where they're 353 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:31.000 selling clothes to essentially teenage girls kind of going into 354 00:18:31.019 --> 00:18:32.200 your 20s, maybe. 355 00:18:32.500 --> 00:18:36.089 Like what you hear? Tune into USL All Access live 356 00:18:36.170 --> 00:18:39.250 every Tuesday at 8 p.m. Eastern on Sirius XM FC 357 00:18:39.289 --> 00:18:43.329 channel 188 for exclusive interviews and the latest from around 358 00:18:43.349 --> 00:18:47.619 the USL. The exclusive satellite radio home of the USL, 359 00:18:48.019 --> 00:18:52.759 Sirius XM FC. is North America's only 24-7 source for 360 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:57.160 engaging soccer talk and live matches from the USL, Premier League, 361 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:01.940 and more. All on SiriusXM FC channel 188 and the 362 00:19:02.019 --> 00:19:03.119 SiriusXM app. 363 00:19:03.380 --> 00:19:07.960 The 30s, but their real market focuses teams. And their 364 00:19:08.099 --> 00:19:11.829 selling point is that they do one size fits all. 365 00:19:11.869 --> 00:19:14.849 So they only sell things in one size. And for 366 00:19:14.910 --> 00:19:17.470 some things, it's kind of oversized tops. For some things, 367 00:19:17.529 --> 00:19:19.890 it's just a pair of jeans, which only selling those 368 00:19:19.930 --> 00:19:22.410 in one size, only a pretty specific group of people 369 00:19:22.450 --> 00:19:24.710 is going to be able to wear them. I was 370 00:19:24.750 --> 00:19:29.299 interested in Brandy Melville back in 2021, where I was 371 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:32.339 really interested because they'd grown so much. And I was 372 00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:35.359 curious who their CEO was just to be like, huh, 373 00:19:35.460 --> 00:19:38.990 like it's interesting. This only has one size. It's interesting. 374 00:19:39.029 --> 00:19:42.529 It's so popular. Whose idea was this? So I started 375 00:19:42.549 --> 00:19:45.089 trying to Google the CEO and I just couldn't find 376 00:19:45.109 --> 00:19:47.880 the name anywhere, which When you're a reporter, you know 377 00:19:47.900 --> 00:19:50.809 CEOs love to talk about themselves. They love to talk 378 00:19:50.829 --> 00:19:53.430 about their business. It's so rare to have a CEO 379 00:19:53.470 --> 00:19:55.430 who is not trying to get their name out there. 380 00:19:56.380 --> 00:19:59.279 So I started looking through court documents to just figure 381 00:19:59.339 --> 00:20:03.200 out who was running this thing. And that was when 382 00:20:03.259 --> 00:20:08.799 I found these lawsuits accusing Brandy Melville of racial discrimination 383 00:20:08.819 --> 00:20:11.849 and And from there, I started talking to more and 384 00:20:11.869 --> 00:20:15.650 more people. And what came together was this company was 385 00:20:15.670 --> 00:20:18.890 a place where, in addition to only selling one size, 386 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:25.079 their employees were expected to be young, thin, ideally blonde, 387 00:20:25.220 --> 00:20:28.279 and white. And I heard from Black and Latina employees 388 00:20:28.299 --> 00:20:32.000 who said, I just couldn't get hired. Or I was 389 00:20:32.069 --> 00:20:34.930 forced to work in the stockroom while these very thin 390 00:20:35.029 --> 00:20:38.319 white employees were given better paying jobs where they were 391 00:20:38.420 --> 00:20:40.059 on the floor and in some cases kind of even 392 00:20:40.140 --> 00:20:44.460 elevated to models and to being able to get these perks. 393 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:47.170 But the flip side of getting these perks was spending 394 00:20:47.210 --> 00:20:50.950 more time with this small circle of male executives where 395 00:20:50.990 --> 00:20:55.470 people discussed feeling like they were exploited. I talked with 396 00:20:55.690 --> 00:20:58.950 one young woman who said she was sexually abused by 397 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:01.599 one of the male kind of people in this inner circle. 398 00:21:01.619 --> 00:21:04.000 And I heard from several people that they felt they 399 00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:07.609 had to undress to be fully nude in front of 400 00:21:07.650 --> 00:21:09.990 these male executives. And that was kind of part and 401 00:21:10.029 --> 00:21:12.529 parcel with having these extra perks and being able to 402 00:21:12.569 --> 00:21:17.019 be promoted. So it was a really shocking investigation where 403 00:21:17.500 --> 00:21:20.500 just even the most basic things that people were hired 404 00:21:20.539 --> 00:21:23.960 and fired based on being thin and white were to 405 00:21:24.019 --> 00:21:27.700 me shocking. They had to send photos of themselves every 406 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:31.390 single day to these male executives. So I was really 407 00:21:31.450 --> 00:21:33.930 shocked by all of this. And There were so many 408 00:21:33.950 --> 00:21:34.509 bizarre details. 409 00:21:34.589 --> 00:21:37.049 So was there not one CEO? Was it a group 410 00:21:37.109 --> 00:21:38.789 of executives that had bought the company? 411 00:21:39.269 --> 00:21:43.130 There was one CEO, Stefan Marsan, but he kind of 412 00:21:43.210 --> 00:21:47.440 worked in close collaboration with this group of mostly Italian 413 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:50.900 male executives who were also involved in making decisions. But 414 00:21:51.339 --> 00:21:55.359 Stefan was kind of the CEO of a series

of 415 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:58.400 shell companies that ran Brandy Malfell. Wow. 416 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:04.759 Um, okay. So, and explain how you kind of got access, 417 00:22:04.819 --> 00:22:07.200 how you, how you started penetrating this enough that you 418 00:22:07.220 --> 00:22:10.559 were able to pitch this, um, as you know, something 419 00:22:10.579 --> 00:22:12.819 that you could put on paper that then somebody bought 420 00:22:12.859 --> 00:22:14.680 into it and said, we got to put this on TV. 421 00:22:15.140 --> 00:22:18.740 Yeah. So my original reporting, I had access to these 422 00:22:18.829 --> 00:22:22.349 lawsuits and all of these materials related to the lawsuits, 423 00:22:22.369 --> 00:22:23.670 which was incredibly helpful. 424 00:22:23.730 --> 00:22:27.230 I think that for people- And that's just public, it's 425 00:22:27.369 --> 00:22:28.369 out there on the public record. 426 00:22:28.390 --> 00:22:30.750 Public record, which I think that when you're a journalist, 427 00:22:31.710 --> 00:22:33.769 a lot of readers understandably kind of are like, oh, 428 00:22:33.789 --> 00:22:35.569 why should I trust you? Why should I trust these 429 00:22:35.630 --> 00:22:39.130 anonymous sources? But when you have actual materials that are 430 00:22:39.269 --> 00:22:43.210 publicly available in a lawsuit, it really removes a lot 431 00:22:43.230 --> 00:22:45.309 of that doubt. But in addition to that, just to 432 00:22:45.349 --> 00:22:48.650 kind of understand and conceptualize this, I talked to more 433 00:22:48.710 --> 00:22:55.559 than 30 current and it's all true. And in fact, 434 00:22:55.579 --> 00:22:58.420 there were even worse things happening as well. So I 435 00:22:58.460 --> 00:23:02.539 published all of that. And from there, um, there was 436 00:23:02.660 --> 00:23:05.150 interest in a documentary and the documentary that ended up 437 00:23:05.190 --> 00:23:09.089 being made, uh, by a very talented director who has 438 00:23:09.150 --> 00:23:13.589 like won an Oscar before. Um, she took this inspiration 439 00:23:13.609 --> 00:23:15.630 from Brady Melville and was able to turn it into 440 00:23:15.650 --> 00:23:19.579 a wider reflection on fast fashion and not only how 441 00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:22.359 there's exploitation at Brady Melville, but what does this look 442 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:26.500 like in the wider fashion industry and how much waste 443 00:23:26.539 --> 00:23:29.200 there is and how it impacts women, not just in 444 00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:31.539 the US working for Brandy, but around the world. 445 00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:36.799 After covering the scandal, do you believe that consumer awareness 446 00:23:36.859 --> 00:23:41.319 and social media backlash have effectively pressured Brandy Melville to change? 447 00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:43.089 Like what's gone on in the company since? 448 00:23:43.700 --> 00:23:46.640 That's something that I'm still trying to figure out because 449 00:23:46.660 --> 00:23:49.430 I had such a great response from people who had 450 00:23:49.470 --> 00:23:51.700 worked at Brandy Melville who said, thank you for getting 451 00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:53.420 the truth out. This means a lot to me that 452 00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:55.920 this is out in the world. But on the flip side, 453 00:23:56.359 --> 00:23:59.339 they still seem to be doing a booming business. It 454 00:23:59.380 --> 00:24:02.539 does not seem to have impacted their sales as far 455 00:24:02.579 --> 00:24:06.279 as I can see. So it's a little bit of 456 00:24:06.500 --> 00:24:09.859 a difficult question because I want to believe that people, 457 00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:14.259 when they find out a company is exploiting teenage girls, 458 00:24:14.599 --> 00:24:18.039 people would stop shopping there. But I haven't seen that 459 00:24:18.180 --> 00:24:20.579 actually happen. And I don't know if it's a lack 460 00:24:20.779 --> 00:24:22.940 of people knowing about this. 461 00:24:23.019 --> 00:24:24.500 Or people- Yeah, I mean, I would think it's a 462 00:24:24.539 --> 00:24:26.700 lack of awareness. I don't know that those teenagers are 463 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:28.710 the ones reading your article. I don't know that those 464 00:24:28.730 --> 00:24:33.089 teenagers are the ones that are seeing that documentary. Did 465 00:24:33.109 --> 00:24:35.210 that come out on Netflix? 466 00:24:35.250 --> 00:24:36.930 It's on HBO, HBO Max. 467 00:24:36.970 --> 00:24:40.390 Yeah, HBO, that's right. So I don't know that it's 468 00:24:41.190 --> 00:24:43.970 seeped its way in and sometimes that does take years, 469 00:24:44.109 --> 00:24:45.509 you know what I mean? And then it comes around. 470 00:24:45.869 --> 00:24:50.140 Were you able to access any of those male executives 471 00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:50.819 and talk to them? 472 00:24:52.009 --> 00:24:55.180 No, I was obviously in reporting. I reached out to everyone, 473 00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:58.339 tried to talk to everyone, but I talked to, um, 474 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:01.670 some people who had left and who were male executives 475 00:25:01.690 --> 00:25:04.269 who were now kind of had turned against the company, 476 00:25:04.769 --> 00:25:07.799 but no current executives were willing to speak with me. 477 00:25:09.140 --> 00:25:12.109 Um, I mean, there's a growing trend of people that 478 00:25:12.329 --> 00:25:14.650 are whistleblowers or people that want to come out and 479 00:25:14.849 --> 00:25:17.450 speak in every industry. I mean, from fast food to 480 00:25:17.509 --> 00:25:22.200 tech to retail, whatever the scandal might be. Did you 481 00:25:22.299 --> 00:25:23.960 find that it was really hard to get people to 482 00:25:24.019 --> 00:25:26.200 want to talk because they were nervous of the backlash, 483 00:25:26.299 --> 00:25:29.099 especially in something like this where nothing seems to be 484 00:25:29.140 --> 00:25:32.009 affected in the company? So why talk? You know, you 485 00:25:32.049

--> 00:25:34.609 can't if they can't bring them down, you can't elevate 486 00:25:34.630 --> 00:25:37.130 your position. What's the reasoning that they're going to do it? 487 00:25:37.609 --> 00:25:40.410 It was incredibly difficult to get people to talk. And 488 00:25:40.450 --> 00:25:43.210 there's so much fear that is still built in to 489 00:25:43.250 --> 00:25:46.359 people where they were really scared about what would happen 490 00:25:46.380 --> 00:25:48.440 to them. And for a lot of them, they still 491 00:25:48.500 --> 00:25:51.799 are friends with people who have worked there or continue 492 00:25:51.819 --> 00:25:55.200 to work there. It's a real community mindset. So I 493 00:25:55.220 --> 00:25:57.680 think that for people, that was a little bit of 494 00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:00.069 a double-edged sword. Some people were afraid of speaking up 495 00:26:00.140 --> 00:26:03.369 if it would hurt people who were still working there. 496 00:26:03.450 --> 00:26:06.069 But I think that for a lot of people who 497 00:26:06.109 --> 00:26:08.880 spoke with me, while they hoped that there would be 498 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:11.680 bigger changes and it would impact the company's bottom line, 499 00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:14.619 it also felt like they were able to speak to 500 00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:17.059 kind of tell other women, this wasn't just you, like 501 00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:20.319 I experienced this as well. And that was a way 502 00:26:20.359 --> 00:26:23.599 to create change and create community and kind of make 503 00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:26.480 something of this traumatic experience for them. Yeah. 504 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:29.039 I don't follow the company that well. Do they still 505 00:26:29.099 --> 00:26:31.240 have brick and mortar stores or has it moved to 506 00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:31.900 just online? 507 00:26:32.369 --> 00:26:34.900 They still have brick and mortar stores and they're expanding 508 00:26:35.009 --> 00:26:38.519 into restaurants now. I haven't reported too much on this, 509 00:26:38.579 --> 00:26:41.619 but they've been doing more in the restaurant space and 510 00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:43.880 they're continuing international expansion. 511 00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:47.410 Interesting. You mean to put a restaurant like in addition 512 00:26:47.869 --> 00:26:49.589 where the retail space is? 513 00:26:49.609 --> 00:26:52.049 They kind of are opening these little cafes that are 514 00:26:52.089 --> 00:26:55.410 not called Bernie Melville, but they've started opening restaurants under 515 00:26:55.470 --> 00:26:58.910 different names that are next to or around. I need 516 00:26:59.009 --> 00:27:04.210 to return to my reporting on this. If anyone watches this, 517 00:27:04.329 --> 00:27:07.799 any inside scoop, reach out to me because they're I'm 518 00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:12.099 very curious about what the business plan is with this. 519 00:27:12.829 --> 00:27:14.180 It's very interesting. 520 00:27:14.700 --> 00:27:18.670 And it'll be interesting to see if it's all these skinny, white, 521 00:27:18.769 --> 00:27:21.529 young women being the hosts. 522 00:27:22.009 --> 00:27:22.650 Yes. 523 00:27:23.210 --> 00:27:25.730 Okay. So now let's get to another one that you 524 00:27:25.789 --> 00:27:29.289 did a lot of coverage on. You covered the Nickelodeon scandal. 525 00:27:29.970 --> 00:27:32.269 For people that are not aware of this, can you 526 00:27:32.309 --> 00:27:34.230 give us a brief synopsis of what that was? 527 00:27:34.609 --> 00:27:34.849 Yes. 528 00:27:35.130 --> 00:27:38.829 So I think that for years there have been Rumors 529 00:27:38.970 --> 00:27:45.509 and online discussions on Nickelodeon and Nickelodeon under Dan Schneider. Okay, 530 00:27:45.529 --> 00:27:46.390 let's get started. 531 00:27:47.109 --> 00:27:48.470 Are you first time buyers? 532 00:27:49.109 --> 00:27:54.210 Yeah, it's our first time. So, it's your first time here? 533 00:27:54.470 --> 00:27:58.839 No, it's first time buying. Did you say no for 534 00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:00.380 first time buying? 535 00:28:00.619 --> 00:28:02.240 No, wait, hold on. 536 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:03.480 Okay, please hold. 537 00:28:03.500 --> 00:28:03.579 What? 538 00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:06.640 No, no, I told you to hold on. 539 00:28:07.130 --> 00:28:11.490 You're viewing homes, not mortgage advisors. So find your nearest 540 00:28:11.569 --> 00:28:15.549 branch at ebs.ie to get a dedicated mortgage person throughout 541 00:28:15.589 --> 00:28:20.690 your mortgage journey. EBS, the mortgage people. Lending criteria, terms 542 00:28:20.730 --> 00:28:23.369 and conditions will apply. EBS DAC is regulated by the 543 00:28:23.410 --> 00:28:24.289 Central Bank of Ireland. 544 00:28:24.569 --> 00:28:26.599 And that was something that I think there's been so 545 00:28:26.630 --> 00:28:29.690 much talk about online, where people felt like certain things 546 00:28:29.710 --> 00:28:33.819 were established fact, and some were, and some were just rumours. So... 547 00:28:34.259 --> 00:28:36.779 In 2022, I decided to try and do this deep 548 00:28:36.819 --> 00:28:40.200 dive and actually talk to people and say, what happened 549 00:28:40.220 --> 00:28:42.460 when you were at Nickelodeon? What did you see? Do 550 00:28:43.099 --> 00:28:45.380 you feel like the public has an accurate viewpoint on this? 551 00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:48.140 No, wait, sorry. Up until that moment, you had just 552 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:50.720 heard rumblings about it. Had it been in the media 553 00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:51.799 at that point yet? 554 00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:53.299 There was. 555 00:28:53.539 --> 00:28:55.660 He missed the boat with the Me Too thing. Like 556 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:57.460 he skated through it. 557 00:28:57.460 --> 00:29:00.799 It was something where there wasn't anything that came out 558 00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:04.109 with Me Too. I had heard a lot. I was 559 00:29:04.150 --> 00:29:06.930

reporting there was a lot of rumblings at Nickelodeon during 560 00:29:06.970 --> 00:29:09.309 Me Too, like, is there going to be a Me 561 00:29:09.349 --> 00:29:13.349 Too for children's entertainment? Will it impact us? And there 562 00:29:13.430 --> 00:29:18.380 wasn't really a big reckoning at that moment for children's entertainment. 563 00:29:18.500 --> 00:29:20.900 There was an article about Dan Schneider in the New 564 00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:24.640 York Times in 2021 that kind of delved into this, 565 00:29:24.740 --> 00:29:28.599 but also people who I had heard spoke with the 566 00:29:28.619 --> 00:29:31.400 New York Times for the article felt the resulting piece 567 00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:35.730 was a little bit gave Dan Schneider credit on things 568 00:29:35.750 --> 00:29:38.380 that they don't think that he deserved credit on. Some 569 00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:40.309 people felt like the piece was a little bit too 570 00:29:40.369 --> 00:29:43.839 positive to Dan Schneider. So when I wrote my article 571 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:49.000 in 2022, it kind of dug deeper into what the 572 00:29:49.099 --> 00:29:52.000 culture was on the set of this specific era of 573 00:29:52.059 --> 00:29:56.319 Nickelodeon shows. And I was focused pretty solidly on Dan 574 00:29:56.339 --> 00:29:58.640 Schneider and his shows. And some of the issues that 575 00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:02.420 emerged was people felt like they couldn't really ever push 576 00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:05.400 back against what he wanted. And he had total control 577 00:30:05.539 --> 00:30:09.819 over these kids' careers. And as a result, people felt 578 00:30:09.859 --> 00:30:12.480 like there were decisions that were maybe not appropriate for 579 00:30:12.509 --> 00:30:16.170 a kids' TV show, like scenes that had risque humor 580 00:30:16.410 --> 00:30:20.630 or outfits that were somewhat a little bit too mature 581 00:30:20.650 --> 00:30:22.930 or a little bit too, showed a little bit too 582 00:30:22.950 --> 00:30:27.759 much skin. So I published that and there were parts 583 00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:30.640 of the story that I just, either didn't feel directly 584 00:30:30.700 --> 00:30:33.819 related to Dan Schneider or that I couldn't quite nail down. 585 00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:39.460 So shortly after publishing, the directors who would become the 586 00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:41.799 directors of Quiet on Set reached out and said, do 587 00:30:41.819 --> 00:30:44.420 you think there's more to this story? And I was like, yes, definitely. 588 00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:47.730 I think there's so much more here. And what we 589 00:30:47.750 --> 00:30:50.609 worked on from there ended up becoming a docuseries called 590 00:30:51.190 --> 00:30:53.390 Quiet on Set, the dark side of kids TV that 591 00:30:53.470 --> 00:30:57.650 delved into these wider issues of child exploitation at the time. 592 00:30:57.809 --> 00:31:00.910 And Did you help with the research on that as well? 593 00:31:00.930 --> 00:31:02.890 Because that took it a step further. 594 00:31:03.529 --> 00:31:05.369 It took things a step further and it helped with 595 00:31:05.529 --> 00:31:07.430 the research and some of the access. But I have 596 00:31:07.450 --> 00:31:10.180 to say the directors also did an incredible job and 597 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:13.960 the whole team there did a great job really doggedly 598 00:31:14.019 --> 00:31:18.160 reporting and kind of trying to take things wider than 599 00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:19.690 my original investigation had. 600 00:31:21.059 --> 00:31:23.380 What is that like working on a piece and then 601 00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:26.369 seeing how big it gets? And that did make a 602 00:31:26.430 --> 00:31:31.509 huge impact where people were talking about it. People were floored. 603 00:31:31.589 --> 00:31:33.289 I mean, it was making, it was like front page 604 00:31:33.349 --> 00:31:34.470 news for a really long time. 605 00:31:35.069 --> 00:31:37.970 It was really wild to kind of be working on 606 00:31:38.019 --> 00:31:41.660 something for so long. It can feel like it's very 607 00:31:41.740 --> 00:31:44.680 interior and you don't know what the reaction is going 608 00:31:44.700 --> 00:31:48.180 to be like. To have such a massive, massive immediate 609 00:31:48.220 --> 00:31:52.559 reaction was amazing. really gratifying in a way where you 610 00:31:52.619 --> 00:31:54.619 see how much people care about this and how much 611 00:31:54.680 --> 00:31:57.539 people want to see change in this area. And that 612 00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:01.079 is really helpful where it can, you can feel like 613 00:32:01.099 --> 00:32:03.099 you're working on something and you don't know if it's 614 00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:06.039 going to actually make a change or if people will 615 00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:09.160 care about this. And this was something that it felt 616 00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:14.309 like people were very, very kind of invested in trying 617 00:32:14.349 --> 00:32:15.240 to find solutions. 618 00:32:16.130 --> 00:32:19.329 In terms of Nickelodeon, What do you think were the 619 00:32:19.369 --> 00:32:23.130 most significant factors that allowed this concerning behavior to persist 620 00:32:23.170 --> 00:32:27.380 behind the scenes for so long without public scrutiny? It 621 00:32:27.420 --> 00:32:30.299 seems to happen all the time until it comes out. 622 00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:32.680 When you hear these stories, it's like, oh, it's been 623 00:32:32.700 --> 00:32:35.099 happening for 10 years, for 20 years. The abuse was 624 00:32:35.140 --> 00:32:37.019 so bad. It wasn't just with one person. It was 625 00:32:37.059 --> 00:32:40.420 with 50 people. How do they keep it under wraps 626 00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:41.259 for so long? 627 00:32:42.140 --> 00:32:44.339 I think one of the bigger things is the culture 628 00:32:44.380 --> 00:32:47.400 that existed and to some degree, I think continues to 629 00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:50.220 exist in

show business where there's this idea that for 630 00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:53.920 child actors, they aren't really children, that they think of 631 00:32:53.960 --> 00:32:57.259 themselves as adults because they're the ones who are supporting 632 00:32:57.299 --> 00:33:00.980 their family. And that puts them in situations where it 633 00:33:01.049 --> 00:33:05.549 becomes really difficult for them to say no to something 634 00:33:05.730 --> 00:33:08.869 or to escape a situation that might be uncomfortable because 635 00:33:09.289 --> 00:33:11.890 they have the pressure of being the breadwinner for their 636 00:33:11.930 --> 00:33:15.509 family on their shoulders. So that allows things to escalate. 637 00:33:15.670 --> 00:33:18.230 It also puts these kids in a situation where they 638 00:33:18.250 --> 00:33:22.009 can think I'm an adult. Like I can be having 639 00:33:22.049 --> 00:33:25.430 these adult relationships. Like it's normal for me to be 640 00:33:25.589 --> 00:33:29.170 friends with someone who is 30 years older than me. 641 00:33:29.210 --> 00:33:32.500 It's normal for me to be spending time one-on-one with 642 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:37.000 an adult who kind of might end up trying to 643 00:33:37.140 --> 00:33:40.180 approach me sexually. And I think that it's hard because 644 00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:44.450 in some ways, what, I heard from child actors who said, 645 00:33:44.470 --> 00:33:48.490 these relationships were really meaningful to me. They were mentorships. 646 00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:52.160 I still have close, positive relationships with older people who 647 00:33:52.180 --> 00:33:54.299 took an interest in me that was not sexual at all. 648 00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:57.960 But I think that the culture that treats these kids 649 00:33:58.259 --> 00:34:01.400 as adults and puts them in a position where everyone 650 00:34:01.460 --> 00:34:05.480 is treating them as if they are expected to be 651 00:34:05.980 --> 00:34:10.679 totally mature in this way really hurts them. child actors 652 00:34:10.739 --> 00:34:12.579 in a myriad of different ways. 653 00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:13.579 Right. 654 00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:14.900 Okay. 655 00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:16.880 So this is a journalist question. What were some of 656 00:34:16.900 --> 00:34:19.840 the challenges you faced when covering the Nickelodeon scandal? I 657 00:34:19.860 --> 00:34:23.170 guess in others, like how did you approach gathering and 658 00:34:23.230 --> 00:34:27.849 verifying sensitive information, especially when you're talking about something that 659 00:34:27.869 --> 00:34:29.090 has to do with sex? 660 00:34:29.969 --> 00:34:32.469 Yeah. I think that something that was difficult for this 661 00:34:32.570 --> 00:34:37.619 was unlike the Brandy Melville story, for example, In that story, 662 00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:42.670 we had some concrete lawsuits with very concrete examples of discrimination. 663 00:34:42.789 --> 00:34:45.269 And the work seems like it had been

done for 664 00:34:45.309 --> 00:34:46.329 you at the beginning there. 665 00:34:46.349 --> 00:34:48.829 It was something where you are building, you're kind of 666 00:34:48.889 --> 00:34:52.010 taking this concrete lawsuit and then building off of it 667 00:34:52.570 --> 00:34:56.139 with more stories and more context. In this one, there 668 00:34:56.260 --> 00:35:00.219 was a lawsuit, but it was filed by a John Doe. 669 00:35:00.659 --> 00:35:04.070 So we knew that there was an instance of a well, 670 00:35:04.150 --> 00:35:06.090 more than one, but the one we focused in on 671 00:35:06.130 --> 00:35:10.269 was this child actor who was sexually abused by his 672 00:35:10.409 --> 00:35:14.940 acting coach, Brian Peck. And, but we didn't have the 673 00:35:14.980 --> 00:35:17.639 name of the child and we had heard rumors that 674 00:35:17.659 --> 00:35:20.360 it might be Drake Bell. And in that situation, you 675 00:35:20.659 --> 00:35:25.440 are kind of at a crossroads where you have heard 676 00:35:25.460 --> 00:35:28.079 that it might be this person. This is an incredibly 677 00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:32.280 famous child actor. Where do you go from there? we 678 00:35:32.340 --> 00:35:36.190 would never expose a victim without their consent. We would 679 00:35:36.230 --> 00:35:38.570 never use Drake's name publicly if he didn't want to 680 00:35:38.590 --> 00:35:42.510 be involved. But this is something that we kind of 681 00:35:42.650 --> 00:35:45.829 were working through where we knew it would make the 682 00:35:45.849 --> 00:35:49.619 piece very powerful to have someone like Drake speaking, someone 683 00:35:49.659 --> 00:35:52.320 that so many people recognize from their childhood, someone that 684 00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:55.159 they relate to Drake, they kind of feel like they 685 00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:57.480 grew up with him. Him speaking about this would feel 686 00:35:57.559 --> 00:36:00.079 very immediate for a lot of people. And even if 687 00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:04.170 he wasn't famous, like, this story is so horrific in 688 00:36:04.210 --> 00:36:07.409 and of itself of someone being groomed and abused because 689 00:36:07.429 --> 00:36:13.059 of a culture that treated children like adults. So we 690 00:36:13.340 --> 00:36:15.820 knew that having Drake would be very important, but we 691 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:19.889 didn't know if Drake would want to participate. So he 692 00:36:20.010 --> 00:36:24.090 eventually did decide to participate and kind of building that 693 00:36:24.130 --> 00:36:26.030 relationship and building that trust. I have to say the 694 00:36:26.070 --> 00:36:29.989 directors were incredible in doing that. But that was a 695 00:36:30.090 --> 00:36:34.289 long process and something that for me up until pretty 696 00:36:34.329 --> 00:36:35.630 late in the game, I was like, I don't know 697 00:36:35.670 --> 00:36:37.550 if he'll want to be involved in this. Like, this 698 00:36:37.570 --> 00:36:41.219 is really, really hard to talk about publicly, not even 699 00:36:41.260 --> 00:36:44.760 being a public figure, even someone who is a completely 700 00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:48.440 private individual, someone who has never been famous, asking anyone 701 00:36:48.500 --> 00:36:51.679 to go on camera and talk about the worst thing 702 00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:53.860 or one of the worst things that has ever happened 703 00:36:53.889 --> 00:36:57.530 to them. That is a really difficult request to make. Oh, 100%. 704 00:36:57.530 --> 00:37:03.190 And listen, as someone, I did a HBO Max docuseries 705 00:37:03.289 --> 00:37:05.349 with Alex Gibney, and they are. 706 00:37:05.730 --> 00:37:09.309 Like what you hear? Tune into USL All Access live 707 00:37:09.389 --> 00:37:12.469 every Tuesday at 8 p.m. Eastern on Sirius XM FC 708 00:37:12.510 --> 00:37:16.559 channel 188. for exclusive interviews and the latest from around 709 00:37:16.579 --> 00:37:20.820 the USL. The exclusive satellite radio home of the USL, 710 00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:25.989 Sirius XM FC is North America's only 24-7 source for 711 00:37:26.050 --> 00:37:30.449 engaging soccer talk and live matches from the USL, Premier League, 712 00:37:30.489 --> 00:37:34.940 and more. All on Sirius XM FC channel 188 and 713 00:37:35.019 --> 00:37:36.340 the Sirius XM app. 714 00:37:37.190 --> 00:37:40.159 Very, very good. I mean, listen, I don't think it's 715 00:37:40.219 --> 00:37:42.840 someone who they want you to narrate what happened. Otherwise, 716 00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:45.320 they're going to tell the story anyway. So I think 717 00:37:45.340 --> 00:37:47.840 for me, it was kind of like I saw the 718 00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:52.280 credibility of who was making the story. And ultimately I 719 00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:54.539 ended up trusting them. I spent so much time with 720 00:37:54.579 --> 00:37:55.880 them and I knew that they were going to tell 721 00:37:55.900 --> 00:37:58.260 the story in a way that, that they would do 722 00:37:58.300 --> 00:38:00.780 their best to shed light on what happened, but it 723 00:38:00.929 --> 00:38:03.590 would come best from me. So ultimately that's why I 724 00:38:03.730 --> 00:38:06.789 chose to do it. You know, and people like also 725 00:38:06.809 --> 00:38:09.210 in those situations, like you're not doing it. There was 726 00:38:09.269 --> 00:38:12.320 no money exchange. Like you are at that point where 727 00:38:12.380 --> 00:38:14.340 you want to tell your story because you need to 728 00:38:14.380 --> 00:38:18.210 for your own freedom. you know, for your own, like 729 00:38:18.230 --> 00:38:20.309 to be able to sleep at night better. So I, 730 00:38:20.449 --> 00:38:22.429 you know, I can't speak for him. I can speak 731 00:38:22.469 --> 00:38:25.670 for me. I was in, you know, circumstances were different, 732 00:38:25.690 --> 00:38:28.030 but just in working with those guys at HBO and 733 00:38:28.070 --> 00:38:30.630 they're very, very good. And they lived

up to everything 734 00:38:30.650 --> 00:38:32.590 they said they would, you know, they, I trusted them 735 00:38:32.650 --> 00:38:35.630 and they, they were great with everything they did. So 736 00:38:36.150 --> 00:38:39.750 I get that. I wanted to ask, oh, okay. So 737 00:38:39.969 --> 00:38:42.179 now after the fact we asked about Brandy Melville, did 738 00:38:42.219 --> 00:38:45.460 you see any changes to Nickelodeon? Like what has happened 739 00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:46.480 with that company since? 740 00:38:47.329 --> 00:38:49.320 I think this has been something where we have been 741 00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:53.460 able to see a lot more movement for change. We've 742 00:38:53.500 --> 00:38:58.820 been in contact with the unions and with even governments 743 00:38:59.019 --> 00:39:01.599 on talking about what laws need to be passed. What 744 00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:03.880 do unions need to be pushing for here? This is 745 00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:07.400 something that I do think, for Nickelodeon specifically, they had 746 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:11.139 made some of the changes since this happened that would 747 00:39:11.340 --> 00:39:15.840 hopefully prevent child predators from working at somewhere like Nickelodeon. 748 00:39:16.869 --> 00:39:21.239 But I think that's something that I'm really revved up 749 00:39:21.300 --> 00:39:23.699 about and care a lot about is making sure this 750 00:39:23.739 --> 00:39:27.110 doesn't happen again, not just at Nickelodeon, but in all 751 00:39:27.170 --> 00:39:29.949 forms of children entertainment. So now you have things like 752 00:39:30.050 --> 00:39:34.829 child influencers, where that is something where it is so 753 00:39:34.889 --> 00:39:38.050 much more nebulous and so much more uncertain. And you 754 00:39:38.090 --> 00:39:40.239 don't have a big network that can make rules. So 755 00:39:41.070 --> 00:39:43.679 how do we turn to the government or to different 756 00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:48.420 organizations and continue thinking about what changes can be made 757 00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:50.739 either in terms of laws or just okay, how do 758 00:39:50.780 --> 00:39:53.019 we give people basic advice on how to do this 759 00:39:53.059 --> 00:39:56.630 to avoid putting kids in situations? How do we educate 760 00:39:57.050 --> 00:40:00.230 children on what grooming looks like? And I think that 761 00:40:00.369 --> 00:40:04.230 that's something that just talking about it can create a 762 00:40:04.309 --> 00:40:07.360 really positive change in a direction that can protect kids. 763 00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:10.820 Yeah. And I think it's such a fine line because 764 00:40:12.090 --> 00:40:14.090 you know, there are kids, like you're talking about these 765 00:40:14.199 --> 00:40:16.940 influencers who do not look like kids. I mean, you know, 766 00:40:17.079 --> 00:40:19.860 teenagers do not look like teenagers from, from when I 767 00:40:19.900 --> 00:40:24.340 was a teenager. Okay. Sometimes you look at someone who's 14, 15, 16, 768 00:40:24.340 --> 00:40:28.389 and you think that they're in their twenties, early thirties, 769 00:40:28.469 --> 00:40:32.010 they're dressing sexy because this is what sells. And And 770 00:40:32.269 --> 00:40:34.730 they're okay with that too. But that doesn't mean that 771 00:40:34.750 --> 00:40:37.639 they're adult yet in their thinking. So I think there's 772 00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:40.119 a lot of lines that get blurred. I think also 773 00:40:40.579 --> 00:40:43.969 as the person that's coming up as the creator, the entertainer, 774 00:40:44.539 --> 00:40:47.019 sometimes they think that it's not about just like, oh, 775 00:40:47.079 --> 00:40:50.599 I need to, you know, give away sexual favors to 776 00:40:50.659 --> 00:40:52.460 get this, but it's more like, I want to be 777 00:40:52.500 --> 00:40:55.469 an adult. People are really racing to be an adult now, 778 00:40:55.550 --> 00:40:58.210 to be famous, to be, you know, and so they 779 00:40:58.230 --> 00:40:59.909 think that goes along with it. And I think some 780 00:40:59.949 --> 00:41:03.510 of it is about them stepping into that adulthood way 781 00:41:03.550 --> 00:41:06.809 before they should, and they don't even see it as bad. 782 00:41:06.829 --> 00:41:09.179 It's something that I think that that was the mindset 783 00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:11.059 for a lot of these child actors. And it's almost 784 00:41:11.099 --> 00:41:13.539 like that mindset has gone from being something that kids 785 00:41:13.579 --> 00:41:17.010 have in Hollywood that kids have all over the United 786 00:41:17.110 --> 00:41:21.210 States because of social media. So it's something where there 787 00:41:21.250 --> 00:41:24.250 have to be wider things versus just Disney or Nickelodeon 788 00:41:24.289 --> 00:41:25.170 making some changes. 789 00:41:25.820 --> 00:41:27.719 Oh yeah, for sure. So I wanted to ask you 790 00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:29.300 about social media now that we're talking about it. It's 791 00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:34.789 played a huge role in making things popular from food 792 00:41:34.829 --> 00:41:38.190 to clothing, everything like that, certain trends. And when I 793 00:41:38.230 --> 00:41:40.489 was younger, it was like, you saw a commercial for 794 00:41:40.530 --> 00:41:43.030 something and that's what made it cool. You know, like 795 00:41:43.969 --> 00:41:46.880 you would drink Coke, you would drink, you know, whatever 796 00:41:46.889 --> 00:41:49.260 it was, you would chew Bubblicious. I don't know. You 797 00:41:49.300 --> 00:41:52.239 would get the Cabbage Patch Kid because that's what everyone 798 00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:54.260 was buying. And if you didn't get it, you were 799 00:41:54.340 --> 00:41:59.119 the loser. You know, now it's totally different and everything 800 00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:02.789 is made popular on social media. And it takes sometimes a... 801 00:42:03.780 --> 00:42:07.690 influencer to make that popular. So I want to ask you,

802 00:42:07.949 --> 00:42:11.429 what are the trends that you're seeing within that? Do 803 00:42:11.690 --> 00:42:15.730 you still think that influencers make a big deal and 804 00:42:15.869 --> 00:42:18.360 create these trends? Do you think that's going away? Do 805 00:42:18.469 --> 00:42:21.840 you think it's dangerous? Do you think it's good for brands? 806 00:42:21.880 --> 00:42:23.920 What are your thoughts on it as somebody who covers this? 807 00:42:24.420 --> 00:42:27.239 Totally. I think that it is so huge right now. 808 00:42:27.300 --> 00:42:31.079 And I think that how influencers and where influencers are 809 00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:35.280 really gaining this dominance is super interesting. I mean, looking 810 00:42:35.320 --> 00:42:40.289 at Brandy Melville, that was peak Tumblr and Instagram. And 811 00:42:40.349 --> 00:42:42.929 that's why the brand really took off is because it 812 00:42:42.969 --> 00:42:47.289 was able to find the way inside of these social 813 00:42:47.329 --> 00:42:49.849 media algorithms. I think because they relied so much on 814 00:42:49.869 --> 00:42:52.460 teenage girls that it took off in a way that 815 00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:57.579 felt super organic. I'm not sure what is going to 816 00:42:57.619 --> 00:43:00.420 come next year. I think that TikTok right now is 817 00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:04.360 to me, the biggest driving force on social media in 818 00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:10.159 terms of setting trends, kind of reaching this massive audience. 819 00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:15.440 Probably TikTok and Instagram are setting those, but I'm not 820 00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:19.179 sure what comes next. I think that it's, well, I 821 00:43:19.219 --> 00:43:21.190 can actually speak about the business school take on this. 822 00:43:21.329 --> 00:43:26.050 I was in class recently where we were discussing social 823 00:43:26.090 --> 00:43:30.159 media and we voted like how many of you would 824 00:43:30.199 --> 00:43:33.780 be happier if Instagram didn't exist? And it was pretty 825 00:43:33.800 --> 00:43:37.469 much a 50-50 split. I like Instagram. I was fine 826 00:43:37.510 --> 00:43:40.489 with Instagram existing, but for the half of the class 827 00:43:40.510 --> 00:43:44.179 who said they'd rather have Instagram not exist, the question 828 00:43:44.219 --> 00:43:47.059 was how many of you have Instagram? And the majority 829 00:43:47.099 --> 00:43:49.300 still have Instagram, even though they wish it didn't exist 830 00:43:49.579 --> 00:43:50.280 as a whole. 831 00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:52.360 Did they wish it didn't exist because they couldn't figure 832 00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:52.679 it out? 833 00:43:52.699 --> 00:43:55.260 No, it was just they wish it didn't exist because 834 00:43:55.300 --> 00:43:57.739 it made them feel bad. It made them, it sucked 835 00:43:57.800 --> 00:43:59.559 up a lot of time. It made them feel badly 836 00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:04.260 about themselves. I mean, I understand those critiques, but I 837 00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:08.510 like Instagram because I'm nosy and it's helpful for reporting. 838 00:44:08.949 --> 00:44:12.690 But these people said basically the reason why they're still 839 00:44:12.809 --> 00:44:14.570 on it, even though they don't enjoy how it makes 840 00:44:14.590 --> 00:44:16.650 them feel or how much time it takes up is 841 00:44:17.090 --> 00:44:19.690 this fear of missing out. And I think that that's 842 00:44:19.809 --> 00:44:23.250 kind of become the most dominant idea around social media 843 00:44:23.269 --> 00:44:26.150 now is like this feeling that if I'm not there, 844 00:44:26.289 --> 00:44:29.050 everyone is like hanging out without me. And I think 845 00:44:29.289 --> 00:44:31.889 back when I was in high school, that was something 846 00:44:31.909 --> 00:44:33.949 that was pretty literal where it was like, oh, people 847 00:44:33.989 --> 00:44:36.389 are in person hanging out without me. But now I 848 00:44:36.429 --> 00:44:40.070 think that it becomes very digital where There is you 849 00:44:40.110 --> 00:44:43.369 can see when people are physically hanging out without you online, 850 00:44:43.409 --> 00:44:45.949 but also you feel like you have to be totally 851 00:44:46.010 --> 00:44:49.030 tapped in at all times or you could miss out 852 00:44:49.090 --> 00:44:52.250 on something. So I think that that's one of the 853 00:44:52.829 --> 00:44:56.389 media that is interesting to kind of grapple with. And 854 00:44:56.789 --> 00:44:58.269 I don't know the easy solution there. 855 00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:01.079 And not only that, it's like, what are you missing 856 00:45:01.219 --> 00:45:04.389 out on by not buying it? So at least a 857 00:45:04.429 --> 00:45:06.349 couple of times a week, I will get a package 858 00:45:06.789 --> 00:45:08.630 and my daughter will run past me and grab it. 859 00:45:08.730 --> 00:45:10.530 And I'll be like, what is that? And she's like, oh, 860 00:45:10.590 --> 00:45:13.929 it's from TikTok shop or whatever, or this, oh mom, 861 00:45:13.989 --> 00:45:16.230 it's a trend on TikTok. Everybody's doing it, which like 862 00:45:16.309 --> 00:45:18.170 makes it okay that all of a sudden my money's 863 00:45:18.210 --> 00:45:21.280 gone because she spent it all on some crazy thing 864 00:45:21.300 --> 00:45:23.420 that breaks in two seconds and they have to make 865 00:45:23.460 --> 00:45:26.139 a TikTok about it. It's like insane, but it is 866 00:45:26.219 --> 00:45:29.699 what they all do and follow. And- you know, for 867 00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:32.019 me as a parent, I'm like, oh, okay. She's finding 868 00:45:32.059 --> 00:45:34.619 things to do. She's an only kid. It makes her 869 00:45:34.659 --> 00:45:36.579 feel like she's part of a community, I guess. And 870 00:45:36.699 --> 00:45:38.739 all of her friends are doing it. And they're all 871 00:45:39.179 --> 00:45:42.639 on FaceTime getting excited about it and opening it, you know? 872 00:45:42.659 -->

00:45:45.760 And it's something where it's like, that's not that different 873 00:45:45.780 --> 00:45:48.320 in some ways than us growing up. Like there'd always 874 00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:50.159 be like some fad where it's like, oh, I need 875 00:45:50.219 --> 00:45:52.639 a beanie baby. I need this. But I think it 876 00:45:52.659 --> 00:45:56.389 just feels so much more overwhelming now because it's like, oh, okay. 877 00:45:56.820 --> 00:45:58.780 who are you hanging out with? But also like, are 878 00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:01.679 you up on what to buy? Are you like doing 879 00:46:01.699 --> 00:46:04.139 this as quickly as possible? And it feels like the 880 00:46:04.179 --> 00:46:06.960 trends go so quickly. I mean, some of this, I 881 00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:09.360 feel like just makes me sound old, but I do 882 00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:11.630 think that there's a level of anxiety that's built in 883 00:46:11.690 --> 00:46:16.530 on social media around belonging that wasn't quite all encompassing 884 00:46:16.550 --> 00:46:19.789 in prior decades. And I think that that can be 885 00:46:19.829 --> 00:46:20.530 pretty harmful. 886 00:46:21.050 --> 00:46:23.650 Yeah, I do agree with that. Okay, as a journalist 887 00:46:23.690 --> 00:46:26.789 covering the, well, I was going to frame this as 888 00:46:26.809 --> 00:46:30.449 the food industry, but I guess in any industry, what 889 00:46:30.809 --> 00:46:34.309 do you think has been the most surprising or underreported 890 00:46:34.469 --> 00:46:36.769 story that you've ever come across? And why do you 891 00:46:36.809 --> 00:46:38.469 think it hasn't got the attention it deserved? 892 00:46:38.949 --> 00:46:41.889 Oh, that is such a good question. Let me think. 893 00:46:42.710 --> 00:46:44.630 A story, this is something I want to write more 894 00:46:44.670 --> 00:46:46.349 about that I touched on a little bit earlier. I 895 00:46:46.409 --> 00:46:50.030 want to write more about child influencers and the impact 896 00:46:50.070 --> 00:46:52.610 of that and the long-term impact of that. So if 897 00:46:52.670 --> 00:46:55.219 anyone watching this has thoughts, please reach out because I 898 00:46:55.260 --> 00:47:00.039 think that that is something that it's been reported on, 899 00:47:00.300 --> 00:47:02.699 but there's going to be more and more stories on 900 00:47:02.820 --> 00:47:06.179 what growing up as a child influencer or just growing 901 00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:09.420 up in general on social media does to someone. And 902 00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:12.440 I think it's not underreported because of people ignoring it. 903 00:47:12.929 --> 00:47:15.369 It's underreported just because all of these things are so new. 904 00:47:16.380 --> 00:47:18.320 And I have a question. What do they do with 905 00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:21.170 their lives after? I mean, once they, if they've started 906 00:47:21.230 --> 00:47:23.250 young and then they get into their twenties, unless they 907 00:47:23.329 --> 00:47:25.369 elevate that to something else, like how do you turn 908 00:47:25.389 --> 00:47:28.190 that into a real job later in life? And not 909 00:47:28.250 --> 00:47:31.199 only that, I'm wondering if some of these people's whole 910 00:47:31.239 --> 00:47:34.320 livelihoods are based on complete fake numbers. You know, you 911 00:47:34.340 --> 00:47:37.000 can buy followers, you can buy all sorts of things. 912 00:47:37.340 --> 00:47:40.360 Then you get random people behind you that build you up. 913 00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:43.539 But does that house of cards fall at some point? 914 00:47:43.619 --> 00:47:47.199 And then you have absolutely no skills. later on in life. 915 00:47:47.239 --> 00:47:48.900 And it's not even too deep into life. You're in 916 00:47:48.940 --> 00:47:51.260 your late 20s. And then it's like you really lived 917 00:47:51.320 --> 00:47:54.389 a fake life. So that's my question for when you're 918 00:47:54.429 --> 00:47:55.010 recording it. 919 00:47:55.409 --> 00:47:58.250 I mean, we've seen so much with how media publications 920 00:47:58.269 --> 00:48:00.849 kind of like pivot because they're like, oh, we're getting 921 00:48:00.889 --> 00:48:02.969 all these views this way or like, oh, we're getting 922 00:48:02.989 --> 00:48:05.590 all this traffic from this social media. And then something 923 00:48:05.650 --> 00:48:09.610 changes and then that just falls apart. Like that's hard 924 00:48:09.630 --> 00:48:11.789 when it's a media publication. It often leads to layoffs. 925 00:48:11.849 --> 00:48:15.760 But when it's one person's entire livelihood, like I don't 926 00:48:15.800 --> 00:48:17.119 know what you do from there. And I think that 927 00:48:17.159 --> 00:48:20.579 that is something that is going to continue to play 928 00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:22.699 out for more and more people as being an influencer 929 00:48:22.739 --> 00:48:25.710 is seen as a career that people are trying to win. 930 00:48:25.789 --> 00:48:28.250 And also what happens when they've lived a life like 931 00:48:28.929 --> 00:48:32.269 Alex Earl, for example, or something like that. And then 932 00:48:32.289 --> 00:48:35.429 they say something to get canceled. Well, what skills do 933 00:48:35.449 --> 00:48:38.250 they have to translate this into anything else as well? 934 00:48:38.449 --> 00:48:42.579 And were they educated enough not to say the things 935 00:48:42.619 --> 00:48:45.420 they said, or did they say them because- they're an asshole. 936 00:48:45.619 --> 00:48:47.820 You know, like I don't know what kind of credentials 937 00:48:47.860 --> 00:48:50.880 they had to do their get readies with me and 938 00:48:50.920 --> 00:48:53.510 put on cute clothes that people send them for free. 939 00:48:53.570 --> 00:48:55.130 I mean, how does that make you a smart person? 940 00:48:55.170 --> 00:48:57.550 You're saying dumb things probably because you haven't been educated 941 00:48:57.610 --> 00:49:00.730 and lived a life filled with

experiences to know what 942 00:49:00.789 --> 00:49:03.050 to say and not to say, you know what I mean? 943 00:49:03.070 --> 00:49:04.789 So that's another question I have. 944 00:49:04.809 --> 00:49:07.269 It is very similar to like the nineties child stars, 945 00:49:07.309 --> 00:49:10.070 I think where it's, these people would kind of be 946 00:49:10.090 --> 00:49:12.210 in their mid twenties and it'd be harder to get 947 00:49:12.269 --> 00:49:15.389 roles because the casting directors are like, oh, like you're 948 00:49:15.429 --> 00:49:17.389 too known for being a former child star. Like it's 949 00:49:17.429 --> 00:49:19.650 not a good fit. But then they're like, I haven't gone. 950 00:49:20.119 --> 00:49:23.920 to college. I made money, but not that much money 951 00:49:23.960 --> 00:49:27.219 when you're living off of it every day. And I 952 00:49:27.579 --> 00:49:29.860 don't have a marketable skill now. So like, what do 953 00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:32.239 I do? Where do I go from here? And I think, yeah, 954 00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:33.889 I think that a lot of influencers are going to 955 00:49:33.929 --> 00:49:35.489 face the same questions. 956 00:49:35.789 --> 00:49:38.130 And by the way, that's in any... Any industry. I 957 00:49:38.190 --> 00:49:41.650 speak to athletes all the time who were stars in 958 00:49:41.670 --> 00:49:44.929 their field and then they retire or they're sidelined because 959 00:49:44.969 --> 00:49:47.570 of an injury and they literally don't know what to 960 00:49:47.610 --> 00:49:50.199 do with their lives and they all become alcoholics or 961 00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:52.860 whatever because they really don't know what to do. It's 962 00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:55.760 actually a terrible thing. And it shows you how important 963 00:49:55.820 --> 00:49:58.179 education is when you're a kid. I mean, you know, 964 00:49:58.219 --> 00:50:01.239 just having a... a foundation of something so you can 965 00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:03.989 have other things going on. And that's why people pivot into, 966 00:50:04.010 --> 00:50:06.349 I don't know, you see real estate agents who were 967 00:50:06.389 --> 00:50:10.849 reality stars or A-list actors, you know, driving Uber cars 968 00:50:10.929 --> 00:50:13.079 at some point because they just, they don't know how 969 00:50:13.099 --> 00:50:15.519 to pivot and it's all gone sideways for them because 970 00:50:15.539 --> 00:50:18.059 they've been left in the dust in whatever way, shape 971 00:50:18.119 --> 00:50:18.380 or form. 972 00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:20.179 Um, okay. 973 00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:22.489 And then my last question for you, I want to know, 974 00:50:22.619 --> 00:50:24.909 and again, I know you're on hiatus right now from working, 975 00:50:25.349 --> 00:50:27.329 but there are so many stories in the news right now. 976 00:50:27.369 --> 00:50:29.429 You must be freaking out that you're like not able 977 00:50:29.469 --> 00:50:33.289 to be writing all the time and pitching stories. What 978 00:50:33.329 --> 00:50:35.989 are the current things that you're following? Oh, and by 979 00:50:36.030 --> 00:50:37.710 the way, before you answer that you're in New York 980 00:50:37.730 --> 00:50:39.530 right now, what do you think, or what does everybody 981 00:50:39.550 --> 00:50:41.849 at Columbia think about Eric Adams being in guidance? 982 00:50:42.159 --> 00:50:44.880 My phone has been lighting up for this entire call 983 00:50:44.940 --> 00:50:46.659 and I have not looked at my text. So I 984 00:50:47.099 --> 00:50:51.820 will see. I mean, the Eric Adams indictment is truly like, 985 00:50:51.989 --> 00:50:54.489 that is a fascinating story. And I'm sure there's going 986 00:50:54.510 --> 00:50:57.170 to be fascinating reporting coming out here. Cause we just 987 00:50:57.210 --> 00:51:00.949 have all the elements of a true high drama. I mean, 988 00:51:00.989 --> 00:51:02.150 you've got the. 989 00:51:02.230 --> 00:51:04.469 You have him already coming out and saying that he's 990 00:51:04.590 --> 00:51:08.829 innocent and that it was all fabricated and it's going 991 00:51:08.889 --> 00:51:10.210 to be interesting. 992 00:51:10.250 --> 00:51:11.489 It's going to be an interesting time. So, I mean, 993 00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:14.500 I'm very excited to be reading all about that story. 994 00:51:14.579 --> 00:51:16.420 And I'm a little bit sad that I can't be 995 00:51:16.519 --> 00:51:17.719 reporting on it myself. 996 00:51:17.780 --> 00:51:19.769 And it'll be interesting to see if somebody has to 997 00:51:19.829 --> 00:51:22.429 step in, if Cuomo is going to come back, the 998 00:51:22.489 --> 00:51:26.130 beloved Cuomo who everybody canceled. And now will he be 999 00:51:26.190 --> 00:51:27.710 mayor again? I mean, will he be mayor? 1000 00:51:27.730 --> 00:51:31.219 It's going to be out of control, I think. I'm 1001 00:51:31.420 --> 00:51:34.400 really curious. And I mean, I hope, and this is 1002 00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:36.989 always my hope in general, I'm like, I hope that 1003 00:51:37.030 --> 00:51:40.789 this is an opportunity to have new, fresh voices with 1004 00:51:40.829 --> 00:51:45.809 really innovative new ideas emerge. We'll see if that ever happens, 1005 00:51:46.449 --> 00:51:49.409 but who can say? And I think that things that 1006 00:51:49.489 --> 00:51:52.159 I'm thinking about for stories, I mean, one of the 1007 00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:55.300 stories I wrote at BI that was a little bit 1008 00:51:55.340 --> 00:52:00.300 more low-key or niche was about residential cruise companies, basically 1009 00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:03.119 people moving to live on cruise ships for the rest 1010 00:52:03.159 --> 00:52:05.980 of their lives. it's a space that's filled with a 1011 00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:09.940 lot of kind of scammers and it's just also incredibly 1012 00:52:09.980 --> 00:52:13.909 impossible to make happen because making a cruise ship, something 1013 00:52:13.949 --> 00:52:17.550 people

can live on permanently is very, very hard. I'm 1014 00:52:17.769 --> 00:52:20.949 looking into that more. I think that there's some interesting 1015 00:52:21.170 --> 00:52:24.489 stories there. I'm interested in. 1016 00:52:24.510 --> 00:52:29.099 I know someone who is selling that. So we'll have 1017 00:52:29.139 --> 00:52:31.260 to talk because when he said that to me, I 1018 00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:33.059 was like, that is such a dumb idea. I don't 1019 00:52:33.099 --> 00:52:33.440 get that. 1020 00:52:33.949 --> 00:52:36.789 There's a huge market for it, but it's incredibly hard 1021 00:52:36.809 --> 00:52:39.289 to make work. I think there's a lot of interesting 1022 00:52:39.329 --> 00:52:43.460 things happening in brew industry right now that I'm curious about. 1023 00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:47.860 And then I also, this is something super general, but 1024 00:52:48.380 --> 00:52:51.400 I've been wanting to write more about family businesses. That's 1025 00:52:51.420 --> 00:52:53.360 something that being in business school has made me think 1026 00:52:53.400 --> 00:52:56.139 a lot about and kind of the inherent difficulties of 1027 00:52:56.280 --> 00:53:01.559 working with your family. So I'm kind of poking around 1028 00:53:01.599 --> 00:53:03.199 on some family business stories as well. 1029 00:53:03.820 --> 00:53:05.730 You should look into, and he's a friend of mine. 1030 00:53:05.769 --> 00:53:07.809 I can set you up with him, but Alan Rosen, 1031 00:53:07.849 --> 00:53:12.099 he owns Junior's Cheesecake. And it was family owned. And 1032 00:53:12.119 --> 00:53:14.039 I think he had to buy out his brother. There 1033 00:53:14.059 --> 00:53:16.750 was all sorts of infighting and he now owns it. 1034 00:53:17.179 --> 00:53:19.739 He was thinking of running for mayor of New York recently. 1035 00:53:20.199 --> 00:53:22.550 Good guy. But like he had a lot of stories 1036 00:53:22.610 --> 00:53:25.170 about running it with his family. So but yeah, I 1037 00:53:25.190 --> 00:53:28.050 think that's fascinating. And there are obviously bigger stories and 1038 00:53:28.090 --> 00:53:31.639 there are smaller stories. But the stuff that goes on 1039 00:53:31.659 --> 00:53:35.400 between a family is definitely there's a lot of drama 1040 00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:36.170 to it. Yes. 1041 00:53:36.369 --> 00:53:38.889 It's just, it's, it's hard working with family on like 1042 00:53:38.929 --> 00:53:41.929 the smallest of ideas. So the biggest ideas I feel 1043 00:53:41.949 --> 00:53:44.750 like can be so weighty. Well, it was so lovely 1044 00:53:44.809 --> 00:53:45.409 talking with you. 1045 00:53:45.429 --> 00:53:47.250 It was so lovely talking to you. I wish you 1046 00:53:47.269 --> 00:53:49.050 good luck at Columbia. I can't wait to see the 1047 00:53:49.090 --> 00:53:51.639 next story that you come out with and we will 1048 00:53:51.679 --> 00:53:54.300 have you on again next time you publish something big 1049 00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:56.059 and get to the bottom of it. Cause I'd love 1050 00:53:56.099 --> 00:53:57.760 to hear about it. I wish you the best of luck. 1051 00:53:57.800 --> 00:54:00.380 Tell people where they can find you and look up 1052 00:54:00.440 --> 00:54:01.889 some of your stories if they want to. 1053 00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:06.599 Yes, I'm on Twitter at Kate underscore H underscore Taylor. 1054 00:54:06.659 --> 00:54:10.849 You can look at my website, KateHTaylor.com. And those are 1055 00:54:10.869 --> 00:54:13.829 probably the best ways to find me. But it was 1056 00:54:13.929 --> 00:54:15.849 great talking with you about all of this. 1057 00:54:16.309 --> 00:54:18.239 Yes, I appreciate you and we will be in touch. 1058 00:54:27.170 --> 00:54:30.130 Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host, 1059 00:54:30.170 --> 00:54:32.989 Rachel Yucatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show 1060 00:54:33.110 --> 00:54:35.489 and give us a five-star rating and review. You can 1061 00:54:35.530 --> 00:54:39.840 support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash 1062 00:54:40.030 --> 00:54:42.960 misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel. Do you have ideas for the 1063 00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:47.059 show or want to reach out? Email us at infomisunderstoodpodcast 1064 00:54:47.219 --> 00:54:52.820 at gmail.com. That's spelled M-I-S-S understood. Thank you so much, 1065 00:54:52.860 --> 00:54:53.780 and I'll see you next time. 1066 00:54:58.250 --> 00:55:01.329 Don't miss a minute of United Soccer League action. The 1067 00:55:01.429 --> 00:55:05.599 USL Championship and USL League One are on CBS Sports 1068 00:55:05.659 --> 00:55:10.219 and ESPN platforms all season long. With additional coverage on 1069 00:55:10.300 --> 00:55:15.150 Sirius XMFC Channel 188 and select matches available in Spanish 1070 00:55:15.550 --> 00:55:19.190 on 2DNA. It's your time to take part in building 1071 00:55:19.349 --> 00:55:27.309 what's next. Visit uslchampionship.com or uslleague1. com for complete listings. Find 1072 00:55:27.329 --> 00:55:30.519 your local club and be part of what's next.