Interview with Prof. Anthony Zenkus | DeProgram with Ted Rall and Jamarl Thomas 的完整文字稿

--> 00:04:49.110 West, who may or may not be joining us today, 00:04:49.250 --> 00:04:52.670 he's conservative. He was a Trump voter who has 00:04:52.670 --> 00:04:56.189 been disaffected. And he always likes to say 00:04:56.189 --> 00:04:58.990 that he the vice president should 00:04:58.990 --> 00:05:01.209 speak out. And I'm always the vice president 00:05:01.209 --> 00:05:04.230 can't speak out. The vice president is by definition 00:05:04.990 --> 00:05:07.970 the pit bull of the president. That's their role. 00:05:08.189 --> 00:05:10.910 They're supposed to say things, meaner things, 00:05:11.110 --> 00:05:13.470 crueler things than even the president can do. 00:05:14.170 --> 00:05:17.290 And they're the bad man. They do the 00:05:17.290 --> 00:05:21.949 tough shit. And here you have this guy, 00:05:22.009 --> 00:05:25.370 he's clearly already, this is the beginning 00:05:25.370 --> 00:05:28.910 of the Vance for 2028 campaign. And he started 00:05:28.910 --> 00:05:31.910 with the war. So I was wondering what you make 00:05:31.910 --> 00:05:34.329 of that. I'll find the exact statement. Yeah, 00:05:34.329 --> 00:05:38.050 well, I'm a little shocked to hear that too. 00:05:38.370 --> 00:05:42.089 Not shocked that he thinks it, but shocked that 00:05:42.089 --> 00:05:46.449 he said it. And the way things usually work is 00:05:46.449 --> 00:05:49.810 the vice president can never come out with a 00:05:49.810 --> 00:05:53.370 public statement on administration policy unless 00:05:53.370 --> 00:05:56.930 it's cleared by the White House. So it occurs 00:05:56.930 --> 00:06:00.050 to me, right, they cannot go rogue. One of two 00:06:00.050 --> 00:06:04.829 things happened. It was cleared by someone. I 00:06:04.829 --> 00:06:06.750 don't know if that would be Susie Wiles. I would 00:06:06.750 --> 00:06:10.730 be kind of surprised if that were the case. And 00:06:10.730 --> 00:06:14.170 there's some soft coup going on right 00:06:14.170 --> 00:06:20.709 now. Or he went rogue because he is, Vance is 00:06:20.709 --> 00:06:27.790 painfully aware that his future is tethered to 00:06:27.790 --> 00:06:32.790 this administration. And he made a 00:06:32.790 --> 00:06:35.050 calculation when he joined the Trump team. 00:06:35.050 --> 00:06:38.949 how volatile Trump is. And Trump's 00:06:38.949 --> 00:06:42.250 older and less steady than he was. Not that he 00:06:42.250 --> 00:06:45.410 was so steady before, but this is 00:06:45.430 --> 00:06:48.529 we've never seen this before. So it 00:06:48.529 --> 00:06:51.089 sounds like self-preservation for Vance, but 00:06:51.089 --> 00:06:56.029 it's still shocking. So I don't know. I don't 00:06:56.029 --> 00:06:57.310 know what to make of it. I don't know what you 00:06:57.310 --> 00:07:00.730 guys think. Normally something like 00:07:00.730 --> 00:07:03.949 this, you cannot say without a White House OK. 00:07:04.370 --> 00:07:07.569 And if that's the case, I can't imagine Trump 00:07:07.569 --> 00:07:12.250 was OK with it. So somebody else had to approve 00:07:12.250 --> 00:07:14.290 it. I don't know what's going on here. This is 00:07:14.290 --> 00:07:17.990 a little. I got to be honest. So right 00:07:17.990 --> 00:07:23.370 here, here's the quote on his Twitter. He put 00:07:23.370 --> 00:07:27.470 it on Twitter. So he says. Oh, Jesus, this thing's 00:07:27.470 --> 00:07:30.910 long. I'll just be part of it. He says, one of 00:07:30.910 --> 00:07:33.170 the things that data analysis on our side obsesses 00:07:33.170 --> 00:07:36.050 over was the composition, whether the electorate 00:07:36.050 --> 00:07:39.389 looked close enough to 2024 for Republicans to 00:07:39.389 --> 00:07:42.269 win. And despite the polls showed that a Democrat 00:07:42.269 --> 00:07:44.829 blowout, the data kept on telling us the same 00:07:44.829 --> 00:07:47.589 story. In some states, turnout was merely okay. 00:07:47.730 --> 00:07:51.529 In other states, it was downright amazing. And 00:07:51.529 --> 00:07:56.490 in no state was it catastrophic. There was a 00:07:56.490 --> 00:07:59.029 genuine sense of optimism when our team, our 00:07:59.029 --> 00:08:01.670 people, were showing up. What the hell is he 00:08:01.670 --> 00:08:05.670 talking about? What is he talking about? Well, 00:08:05.670 --> 00:08:08.990 he elaborates a little bit. Yeah, so he says, 00:08:09.089 --> 00:08:11.310 so I asked the smartest data guy that I know, 00:08:11.430 --> 00:08:13.470 does that mean that we're going to shock the 00:08:13.470 --> 00:08:16.810 world? No, he told me. We might do better than 00:08:16.810 --> 00:08:19.209 the polls suggest, but the data is telling us 00:08:19.209 --> 00:08:22.329 a lot of Trump-Vance 2024 voters are pissed and 00:08:22.329 --> 00:08:24.569 planning to vote for the other guys our voters 00:08:24.569 --> 00:08:27.639 are turning out. but they may not be for us. 00:08:27.699 --> 00:08:29.540 Basically, hey, we're getting a lot of people 00:08:29.540 --> 00:08:32.279 to turn out. They're coming out against us. The 00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:35.799 good news is your wife really wants sex. The 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:38.600 bad news is not with you. Right. She's fucking 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:42.480 a pool boy. It's that, right? So let's keep going. 00:08:42.580 --> 00:08:45.779 He says, well, that looks prophetic now. Voters 00:08:45.779 --> 00:08:48.899 did show up in Florida. For example, the electorate 00:08:48.899 --> 00:08:51.080 was nine points more than Republicans than Democrats, 00:08:51.299 --> 00:08:54.779 just a couple of points worse than 2024. Undoubtedly, 00:08:55.019 --> 00:08:57.659 there were places we could have done better with 00:08:57.659 --> 00:09:00.179 turnout, but the main problem is not turnout. 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:02.080 The main problem is that many people who voted 00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:04.720 for Trump-Vance in 2024 voted for Democrats in 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:07.620 2026. This is the Obama thing. Note how he keeps 00:09:07.620 -->

00:09:10.620 saying Trump-Vance, not Trump, right? Yeah, it's 00:09:10.620 --> 00:09:13.419 both. Because I think this is his presidential 00:09:13.419 --> 00:09:19.009 outing. And I agree with I agree with Zenkus 00:09:19.009 --> 00:09:21.389 on this, but let's keep going. He says, there 00:09:21.389 --> 00:09:23.850 will be a lot of infighting and arguing on what 00:09:23.850 --> 00:09:26.149 happened and why that is. One of the posters 00:09:26.149 --> 00:09:28.850 I really respect told me that our economic messaging 00:09:28.850 --> 00:09:31.789 wasn't sharp enough down the stretch. I'm sure 00:09:31.789 --> 00:09:35.590 that's true. Really? Messaging? But here's the 00:09:35.590 --> 00:09:39.370 real reason we lost, and obvious to almost everyone. 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:42.570 Another poster. one of the smartest people I 00:09:42.570 --> 00:09:44.309 know in politics told me yesterday that we'd 00:09:44.309 --> 00:09:48.409 lose the generic ballot by 13 points I felt negative 00:09:48.409 --> 00:09:51.450 going into Tuesday but even I was shocked by 00:09:51.450 --> 00:09:54.330 this in his polling we saw that a lot of Trump 00:09:54.330 --> 00:09:57.090 2024 voters were angry and planning to vote for 00:09:57.090 --> 00:09:59.509 Democrats he asked those voters who had abandoned 00:09:59.509 --> 00:10:02.409 us what would cause them or what would cause 00:10:02.409 --> 00:10:04.730 them to come back to our team the top four answers 00:10:04.730 --> 00:10:07.850 are counting right here in the war focus on cost 00:10:07.850 --> 00:10:10.289 of living and inflation put America first change 00:10:10.289 --> 00:10:12.509 our relationship to Israel by the way a Democrat 00:10:12.509 --> 00:10:17.259 could write that right that could be a lefty 00:10:17.259 --> 00:10:20.720 could say that yeah just just to put it in context 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:22.360 meaning they're talking to hardcore right-wing 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:26.789 voters and they're this is what they want our 00:10:26.789 --> 00:10:29.769 voters showed up and above four reasons why many 00:10:29.769 --> 00:10:31.870 of them voted for Democrats this is according 00:10:31.870 --> 00:10:35.440 to posters who nailed the results while many 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:39.440 spent Monday attacking Rachel Campos-Duffy for 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:41.440 calling for a diplomatic resolution to the conflict 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:44.000 it turns out that our political advice or her 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:46.580 political advice were sound she's also a great 00:10:46.580 --> 00:10:50.480 person wow let's see there's gonna be a lot 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:53.759 of gaslighting the reason we lost the war is 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:56.659 the president himself said so last night if you'd 00:10:56.659 --> 00:10:59.259 like to argue was it worth it that losing the 00:10:59.259 --> 00:11:01.620 Senate for the next years was it worth it then 00:11:01.620 --> 00:11:05.929 do so argue it was worthwhile cost to

pay. Agree 00:11:05.929 --> 00:11:10.299 or disagree, that's at least honest. I appreciate 00:11:10.299 --> 00:11:13.019 that, by the way. I'm saying, look, we attacked 00:11:13.019 --> 00:11:17.500 Iran. We lost Congress because of it. Don't make 00:11:17.500 --> 00:11:20.820 excuses. Just own it, if indeed it was that important 00:11:20.820 --> 00:11:24.279 to you. But everyone knows why we lost. Any honest 00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:26.399 conversation about where we go from here must 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:28.399 start there. Again, he's talking about the war. 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:32.159 I remain hopeful about our country to the 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:34.039 people who are pissed off and want to say quote 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:37.320 I told you so you're right you did tell us so 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:40.889 take that energy into electing Republicans who 00:11:40.889 --> 00:11:43.049 share your world view to people who are just 00:11:43.049 --> 00:11:46.269 pissed at the results you should be let's take 00:11:46.269 --> 00:11:49.169 that anger and get back to work saving our country 00:11:49.169 --> 00:11:51.169 he is focusing on the war first and foremost 00:11:51.169 --> 00:11:54.389 I think it's an interesting question about 00:11:54.389 --> 00:11:58.139 whether he was cleared to say this I really do 00:11:58.139 --> 00:12:00.879 because it's very well possible that Vance 00:12:02.129 --> 00:12:04.879 Let's be very honest right now. Donald Trump 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:09.929 is bleeding. God bleeds. And in this particular 00:12:09.929 --> 00:12:12.509 situation, he will be out in two years. Everybody 00:12:12.509 --> 00:12:14.809 knows that he's a lame duck in the most truest 00:12:14.809 --> 00:12:17.490 sense of the word. And that lame duck just lost 00:12:17.490 --> 00:12:20.090 the power of Congress. So that lame duck is a 00:12:20.090 --> 00:12:22.230 real lame duck in regards to what he could do. 00:12:22.250 --> 00:12:25.059 He can do it foreign policy, but that's it. Vance 00:12:25.059 --> 00:12:27.100 is separating himself from Trump in a way that 00:12:27.100 --> 00:12:29.879 Harris never. He doesn't even have a lot of state 00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:31.899 capitals that he can call and get called back 00:12:31.899 --> 00:12:35.379 from. Yeah. But all the Democratic governors 00:12:35.379 --> 00:12:37.139 that have taken over the statehouse and whatnot. 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:41.159 I think if it wasn't cleared by the White House 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:47.639 formally, he did not do this alone. There's no 00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:52.379 way he just did this on his own. He has to have 00:12:52.379 --> 00:12:58.480 allies behind him, on his staff, I'm sure, and 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:03.379 maybe in the administration who wanted this out 00:13:03.379 --> 00:13:08.419 there. And so why they want it? Well, first and 00:13:08.419 --> 00:13:12.200 foremost, he wants it because his legacy tethered 00:13:12.200 --> 00:13:14.460 to this administration matters to his political 00:13:14.460 --> 00:13:18.820 future. But other people, I wonder what's going 00:13:18.820 --> 00:13:23.379 on. And I think this is if I was a Republican, 00:13:23.559 --> 00:13:25.879 I would say it's alarming, I guess. I don't know. 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:30.470 it's just really surprising. But see, 00:13:30.590 --> 00:13:34.620 I would argue it's necessary. Because I agree 00:13:34.620 --> 00:13:36.740 with you. If Vance wants to preserve any sort 00:13:36.740 --> 00:13:39.419 of political capital going into, let's say, the 00:13:39.419 --> 00:13:41.080 next election, meaning if Republicans want to 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:44.220 salvage anything and they want to have a standard 00:13:44.220 --> 00:13:46.279 bearer going forward and they want that standard 00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:49.659 bearer to be Vance, then they can't do the Kamala 00:13:49.659 --> 00:13:52.120 Harris, Joe Biden thing. When you get Kamala 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:53.500 Harris and they're asking her, hey, would you 00:13:53.500 --> 00:13:55.100 do anything different than Joe Biden? And her 00:13:55.100 --> 00:13:57.379 response is no. And the answer again, her response 00:13:57.379 --> 00:13:59.720 is no. And it's OK, well, that's problematic 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:02.500 considering Joe Biden's approval rating. and 00:14:02.500 --> 00:14:03.879 the way people are considering Joe Biden. It 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:08.100 was 36% at that point. Right now, Donald Trump 00:14:08.100 --> 00:14:11.720 would love 36%. I know, I know. But that's the 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:13.779 point that I'm trying to make. Vance is 00:14:13.779 --> 00:14:16.580 looking at this and is he is radioactive. 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:19.759 And the Republicans, if they have two brain cells 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:21.659 rubbed together, are looking at this saying, 00:14:21.700 --> 00:14:24.179 we need to preserve Vance. If we want to keep 00:14:24.179 --> 00:14:26.759 the presidency, we have to preserve Vance. And 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:28.600 Vance has to be something different and distinct 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:30.620 than Trump, considering where Donald Trump is. 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:33.799 Meaning, if they're, Many just good sense will 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:37.600 tell them to do this. Today is going to we're 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:39.840 going to see. by the time this airs, 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:43.200 we are going to know how Trump react. Right. 00:14:43.259 --> 00:14:48.419 And so if Trump doesn't if Trump isn't pissed, 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:52.860 that's going to say a lot. That's going to say 00:14:52.860 --> 00:14:55.080 this is a coordinated strategy coming through 00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:59.250 the RNC and through the powers that be. If he's 00:14:59.250 --> 00:15:01.750 pissed, that's going to tell me that Vance is 00:15:01.750 --> 00:15:05.029 seriously contemplating a 25th Amendment solution. 00:15:06.490 --> 00:15:10.070 I was saying to a friend the

other 00:15:10.070 --> 00:15:17.009 day, the only hope for Vance would be if for 00:15:17.009 --> 00:15:22.500 some reason Trump did not finish his term and 00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:27.200 Vance became president, ended the war and focused 00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:30.710 on what the American people wanted to focus 00:15:30.710 --> 00:15:34.370 on. Now, do I think J.D. Vance and Republicans, 00:15:34.509 --> 00:15:36.710 who will be in the majority for the next couple 00:15:36.710 --> 00:15:41.299 of months, and then do I think he's a person 00:15:41.299 --> 00:15:43.720 that would do the right thing for the American 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:49.889 people? No. But sometimes if that coincides with 00:15:49.889 --> 00:15:55.409 his need to have a political future, maybe transactionally 00:15:55.409 --> 00:15:59.759 he would. But I have to tell you, after February, 00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:04.899 when we started the full hot war with Iran, I 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:07.100 just had this gut feeling. I'm Trump's 00:16:07.100 --> 00:16:10.379 not finishing this term. No way. There's no way 00:16:10.379 --> 00:16:13.240 he's finishing the term. I just don't see it. 00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:17.419 he's old. He isn't the healthiest guy 00:16:17.419 --> 00:16:22.250 in the world. And it's only going to end in disaster 00:16:22.250 --> 00:16:25.549 if he keeps attacking Iran. So what choices does 00:16:25.549 --> 00:16:30.139 he have? Yeah, it's depressing too, right? 00:16:30.259 --> 00:16:35.200 he's ultimately, psychologically, this 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:39.240 man is not just a narcissist, right? He's a hedonist. 00:16:39.419 --> 00:16:42.840 He likes to do what he wants to do. If he doesn't 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:44.879 have the money for something, he'll borrow it 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:47.539 and drive a couple of companies into bankruptcy. 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:50.500 He sees that porn star, he's got to have her, 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:56.100 even if it's in his wife's bedroom. He does what 00:16:56.100 --> 00:16:58.500 he wants, right? He doesn't follow, he doesn't 00:16:58.500 --> 00:17:01.159 care about the rules. And he's not 00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:05.380 I was working on a bio of him years ago, and 00:17:05.380 --> 00:17:07.960 I interviewed a guy who'd been in class with 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:10.920 him at UPenn when he was in, he didn't go to 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:13.200 Wharton Business School, but he went to the undergrad 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:16.440 Wharton at UPenn. And he said, Trump 00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:18.279 was a smart guy, but he didn't want to do the 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:21.400 work. He was lazy. And that seems to be. 00:17:21.710 --> 00:17:23.970 I met Trump when I was a banker and 00:17:23.970 --> 00:17:26.329 that was my takeaway, too. This guy was 00:17:26.329 --> 00:17:28.710 didn't want to get the deal over. He didn't want 00:17:28.710 --> 00:17:31.289 to do the work to maybe get a deal over the finish 00:17:31.289 --> 00:17:35.670 line. He's lazy. And I think he's lazy. It's 00:17:35.670 --> 00:17:38.730 who would if you put yourself in 00:17:38.730 --> 00:17:41.109 his position, you're all right, I'm 80 00:17:41.109 --> 00:17:44.119 years old. I just got my clock cleaned. 00:17:44.140 --> 00:17:46.480 I have immunity from the Supreme Court. I don't 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:49.299 really have to be president anymore to stay out 00:17:49.299 --> 00:17:52.279 of prison. Do I need this? I'm just going to 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:55.059 be humiliated and dragged through the mud. Maybe 00:17:55.059 --> 00:17:57.279 I can make a backroom deal with the Democrats. 00:17:57.380 --> 00:18:01.140 hey, if I resign or allow myself 00:18:01.140 --> 00:18:04.329 to be removed and I go quietly, will you promise 00:18:04.329 --> 00:18:07.890 no lawfare, no subpoenas, and we'll all move 00:18:07.890 --> 00:18:10.109 on? It'll be better for you. It'll be better 00:18:10.109 --> 00:18:14.789 for me. I could really see if I were 00:18:14.789 --> 00:18:19.069 teleported into his body, I might be I 00:18:19.069 --> 00:18:21.130 still want to do this for the next two years. 00:18:21.269 --> 00:18:25.660 I'm out. Yeah. I was actually not completely 00:18:25.660 --> 00:18:29.920 shocked, but I was a little incredulous at his 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:32.720 wanting to run again. I get that his ego was 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:35.180 bruised and that's what matters to him. So he 00:18:35.180 --> 00:18:39.220 had to run and win. He was worried about prosecution, 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:44.920 too. Oh, yeah, of course. That's true. Actually, 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:48.779 probably the prime reason. But as far as lasting 00:18:48.779 --> 00:18:52.119 with the term, yeah, if I'm 80 and have 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:56.599 billions of dollars, I'm on an island in Greece, 00:18:56.900 --> 00:19:01.019 hanging out with my family, 00:19:01.019 --> 00:19:04.500 my grandkids, whatever. I'm not doing 00:19:04.500 --> 00:19:08.569 this garbage. But then again, I'm not a person 00:19:08.569 --> 00:19:10.970 who would ever want to do that in the first place. 00:19:12.109 --> 00:19:15.170 And getting into the psychology of Trump is interesting. 00:19:15.329 --> 00:19:18.230 it's helpful to a point, but there's 00:19:18.230 --> 00:19:21.349 other forces at play. the evil cabal 00:19:21.349 --> 00:19:24.150 that runs the world, whoever they are, the ones 00:19:24.150 --> 00:19:27.029 who decide when we go to war or who we attack 00:19:27.029 --> 00:19:30.759 and all that. they want to get what 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:37.250 they get anyway. So all the presidents are inconsequential 00:19:37.250 --> 00:19:40.410 to them. when you think about it so right 00:19:40.410 --> 00:19:43.450 Biden wasn't consequential Kamala would have 00:19:43.450 --> 00:19:48.230 just continued Biden's policies and they got 00:19:48.230 --> 00:19:51.569 Trump to do whatever with Iran probably 00:19:51.569 --> 00:19:55.630 more easily than

they would have gotten a Democrat 00:19:55.630 --> 00:19:58.250 to do what he did they would have they 00:19:58.250 --> 00:20:00.609 would have bombed I'm sure sure they would have 00:20:00.609 --> 00:20:04.369 bombed but not this whatever madness we're in 00:20:04.369 --> 00:20:08.930 right now but where are we? And 00:20:08.930 --> 00:20:12.690 I think the thing is, you're doing game theory 00:20:12.690 --> 00:20:16.289 here. What would be in it for the if 00:20:16.289 --> 00:20:23.180 the Democrats really wanted this shift in their 00:20:23.180 --> 00:20:26.819 direction to last, they would say no, right? 00:20:27.220 --> 00:20:29.819 we don't want Vance to be president. We 00:20:29.819 --> 00:20:32.160 don't want him to solve any of these problems 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:35.220 you've made. We want you to be humiliated. I 00:20:35.220 --> 00:20:40.019 don't know. So it's it's a mystery. And 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:46.069 it's I don't know. Sorry, I can't. No, I hear 00:20:46.069 --> 00:20:52.150 you. It is super interesting. even this 00:20:52.150 --> 00:20:56.990 idea of now what happens, right? Democrats get 00:20:56.990 --> 00:20:59.549 in office or Democrats come into Congress. They 00:20:59.549 --> 00:21:01.809 don't have the presidency. So the power is limited 00:21:01.809 --> 00:21:05.509 regarding what they can do currently or at the 00:21:05.509 --> 00:21:07.069 very least up until the point that Donald Trump 00:21:07.069 --> 00:21:10.839 is out. What do you think they do in office? 00:21:11.059 --> 00:21:12.359 obviously, they're probably going to 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:15.039 have some kind of investigations. But beyond 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:17.740 the investigations that are going to take place, 00:21:17.900 --> 00:21:21.839 what else, if anything? Well, I know what they 00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:25.970 should do. Well, they should follow that letter 00:21:25.970 --> 00:21:30.309 that Vance put up. Those four items, right? 00:21:30.309 --> 00:21:32.289 as a lefty, I listen to that. I'm 00:21:32.349 --> 00:21:34.630 well, yeah, that makes sense. I want an emoluments 00:21:34.630 --> 00:21:37.390 investigation. I want a crypto investigation. 00:21:37.809 --> 00:21:43.369 I want an Epstein file release. Yep. And an investigation 00:21:43.369 --> 00:21:46.269 into the bombing of the Manab Girls School, which 00:21:46.269 --> 00:21:50.250 is a blatant war crime. And Venezuelan fishermen. 00:21:51.509 --> 00:21:56.299 So that would be, I don't, okay. So here, as 00:21:56.299 --> 00:21:58.400 far as impeachment goes, I don't think they should 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.539 just go to impeachment right away. I think they 00:22:01.539 --> 00:22:03.799 need to do investigations first so the American 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:06.579 people can kind of see what the evidence is because 00:22:06.579 --> 00:22:12.680 it was very clear that, There were a bunch of 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:16.319 Trump people who voted for him three times who 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:21.299 were very disenamored with how he handled the 00:22:21.299 --> 00:22:24.460 Epstein file. So if they see the evidence, that 00:22:24.460 --> 00:22:27.380 little MAGA base, which is much smaller now, 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:31.059 is going to shrink and shrink. So that will give 00:22:31.059 --> 00:22:34.259 cover to Republicans to vote yes in the Senate 00:22:34.259 --> 00:22:37.759 because he would be impeached in the House, is 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:40.079 my guess, if they had the vote. with the new 00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:43.380 Democratic Congress coming in that said the investigations 00:22:43.380 --> 00:22:47.299 also have to be of Pete Hegseth who might jump 00:22:47.299 --> 00:22:50.740 ship before that can happen but that doesn't 00:22:50.740 --> 00:22:52.880 excuse him from an investigation he committed 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:56.880 more crimes the man's criminal so but what 00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:01.539 they should do now so my concern even though 00:23:01.539 --> 00:23:05.319 I can't say I have hope from the letter you just 00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:08.539 read or the statement you read but it's a glimmer 00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:12.400 Hopefully, there's never been anything like it 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:17.400 ever. I agree. And so could it mean that the 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:22.670 forces lobbying against a resumption of hostilities 00:23:22.670 --> 00:23:26.880 with Iran are having more influence? Because 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:30.460 I would hope so, because I think the next 60 00:23:30.460 --> 00:23:34.859 days are crucial. Remember, Trump is 00:23:34.859 --> 00:23:39.059 still unpredictable and his ego has been bruised. 00:23:39.950 --> 00:23:43.849 He's got the consequences of his war behind him. 00:23:43.910 --> 00:23:48.230 He's already been trounced in the midterms. So 00:23:48.230 --> 00:23:52.470 these next 60 days to me are the most crucial. 00:23:53.930 --> 00:23:59.690 Democrats should stand up en masse and that, 00:23:59.750 --> 00:24:03.549 everybody from leadership down to newly 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:06.420 elected members who haven't taken office yet 00:24:06.420 --> 00:24:13.339 should stand up publicly and say. We demand that 00:24:13.339 --> 00:24:16.880 there are no resumption of bombing and hostilities 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:20.059 against Iran, that we will deal with this when 00:24:20.059 --> 00:24:23.079 the next Congress is seated in the beginning 00:24:23.079 --> 00:24:29.029 of January. I think that's crucial. In fact, 00:24:29.029 --> 00:24:32.690 I put a post up today saying this and putting 00:24:32.690 --> 00:24:35.329 the congressional switchboard number and telling 00:24:35.329 --> 00:24:38.029 people, call your Congress member, your House 00:24:38.029 --> 00:24:40.950 member, and your senators. Every day demanding 00:24:40.950 --> 00:24:43.009 that they speak out, even if they're Republican. 00:24:43.450 --> 00:24:47.630 Sadly, we have a Republican House member in the 00:24:47.630 -->

00:24:50.390 district I voted here on Long Island. So and 00:24:50.390 --> 00:24:53.009 I called today and I called Schumer's office 00:24:53.009 --> 00:24:56.950 and I said the same thing. So I think that's 00:24:56.950 --> 00:25:00.470 really important because even though this seems 00:25:00.470 --> 00:25:05.579 it could be good, there's still a risk. 00:25:07.730 --> 00:25:11.740 So I think that's the first thing that. And then 00:25:11.740 --> 00:25:14.480 also the continuing resolution comes up in December. 00:25:14.970 --> 00:25:19.809 And every Democrat should vote no if this war 00:25:19.809 --> 00:25:22.109 hasn't been negotiated to a settlement before 00:25:22.109 --> 00:25:25.349 that. Not one more penny for the military. They 00:25:25.349 --> 00:25:29.640 could also threaten that in 2027 when they're 00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:33.380 seated, they will not fund the Pentagon. Not 00:25:33.380 --> 00:25:38.849 one penny if hostilities continue because it's 00:25:38.849 --> 00:25:43.509 volatile. And Iran is not playing right now. 00:25:43.970 --> 00:25:48.329 That escalation trap that Robert Pape talks about, 00:25:48.549 --> 00:25:52.369 it's real. And there is no controlling 00:25:52.369 --> 00:25:59.000 what happens if we go back in. 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:03.099 a week of remarkable news. Election day yesterday 00:26:03.099 --> 00:26:07.599 morning, President Trump, I don't know what this 00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:10.339 was really intended to do, announced that. the 00:26:10.339 --> 00:26:12.900 3.8 billion dollars a year that the United States 00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:16.079 has been sending Israel ever since the Camp David 00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:19.849 accords right we're going to be cut off and 00:26:19.849 --> 00:26:24.230 that Netanyahu his story which let's just say 00:26:24.230 --> 00:26:27.970 it doesn't seem very credible, is that Bibi Netanyahu 00:26:27.970 --> 00:26:30.569 said, what? Actually, we're good. We 00:26:30.569 --> 00:26:34.150 don't need the money. It's fine. You keep it. 00:26:34.190 --> 00:26:36.769 I know you're catching shit for this. Let it 00:26:36.769 --> 00:26:40.049 go. It's just keep it and you do it. You 00:26:40.049 --> 00:26:42.869 do. You be you. We'll be us. And, hey, 00:26:42.930 --> 00:26:45.009 if we need some help, we'll reach out. That was 00:26:45.009 --> 00:26:48.410 Trump's story. But this was election 00:26:48.410 --> 00:26:50.789 morning. it was a November surprise. 00:26:52.130 --> 00:26:54.289 And it's a big deal symbolically. we 00:26:54.289 --> 00:26:56.769 all know Israel is not cut off completely. But 00:26:56.769 --> 00:27:01.869 in a 24 hour period, you have this payment 00:27:01.869 --> 00:27:04.250 that's been going out billions of dollars to 00:27:04.250 --> 00:27:07.990 Israel over the course of most of our lifetimes. 00:27:08.529 --> 00:27:10.950 in Jamarl's case, your entire lifetime. 00:27:11.430 --> 00:27:15.470 And it's it's been ever since the Carter 00:27:15.470 --> 00:27:17.750 administration. And of course. Billions before 00:27:17.750 --> 00:27:20.569 that. This is a big symbolic change. And then 00:27:20.569 --> 00:27:22.990 you have Vice President Vance's statement saying 00:27:22.990 --> 00:27:26.269 that the United States has to create a different 00:27:26.269 --> 00:27:29.670 relationship, obviously a less intensive relationship 00:27:29.670 --> 00:27:34.650 with Israel. I see, I smell 00:27:34.650 --> 00:27:38.970 the beginning of the end of America's unholy 00:27:38.970 --> 00:27:41.980 relationship with Israel. Am I too optimistic? 00:27:44.380 --> 00:27:49.549 I think. I was just looking up how much Trump 00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:54.779 administration planned a $2.8 billion weapons 00:27:54.779 --> 00:27:57.220 package for Israel. That's the most recent one. 00:27:58.289 --> 00:28:02.049 Yeah, that was within the past month or so. So 00:28:02.049 --> 00:28:05.710 they just gave them $3 billion extra. So, okay. 00:28:05.829 --> 00:28:11.539 And included in that are 40,000 heavy 2,000 00:28:11.539 --> 00:28:14.440 -pound bombs. Those are the ones that decimated 00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:21.490 Gaza. Yeah, that was largely through the U.S. 00:28:21.509 --> 00:28:23.910 military. So it wasn't an appropriation 00:28:23.910 --> 00:28:26.769 for Israel. They just took it out of the military, 00:28:27.049 --> 00:28:31.049 the gazillion dollar military budget. So 00:28:31.069 --> 00:28:33.910 one of the things that people are arguing and 00:28:33.910 --> 00:28:38.529 I think which I think is important to look 00:28:38.529 --> 00:28:44.380 at is what Netanyahu surely does want the overt 00:28:44.380 --> 00:28:48.000 U.S. aid to Israel to stop because he realizes. 00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:53.680 sympathy for Israel is gone in the United States. 00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:55.880 The majority of Americans hold an unfavorable 00:28:55.880 --> 00:29:00.200 view of Israel. And the younger you poll, the 00:29:00.200 --> 00:29:05.759 worse it gets. So that's not coming back. But 00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:07.960 he still wants his weapons. He still wants the 00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:10.579 U.S. to back him up when they attack all their 00:29:10.579 --> 00:29:14.480 neighbors. So that's what the NDAA, the National 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:17.839 Defense Authorization Act, has. I think it's 00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:23.579 something called Section 219, where they're basically 00:29:24.380 --> 00:29:26.880 merging the militaries, at least intelligence 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:30.019 -wise and weapons transfers-wise. And the problem 00:29:30.019 --> 00:29:33.259 there is that doesn't get approved by Congress. 00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:35.660 It gets approved as a whole package. And then 00:29:35.660 --> 00:29:38.599 the Pentagon, whoever's president, can do whatever 00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:42.700 it wants. And Israel can still get the same amount 00:29:42.700 --> 00:29:45.380 of weapons. I think there's another piece here. 00:29:45.859 -->

00:29:47.900 People are where's Israel going to get 00:29:47.900 --> 00:29:53.329 the money? And there are There's natural gas 00:29:53.329 --> 00:29:57.170 under Gaza and off the coast of Gaza. There are 00:29:57.170 --> 00:30:02.210 there's estimates of potentially trillions of 00:30:02.210 --> 00:30:06.990 dollars in untapped resources in Gaza. And Israel 00:30:06.990 --> 00:30:10.170 wants it. And I'm sure the United States, Elon 00:30:10.170 --> 00:30:13.450 Musk, that whole crowd wanted to. So, 00:30:13.450 --> 00:30:16.329 Israel, they're thinking hey, we're 00:30:16.329 --> 00:30:18.109 going to have all this. We're going to have more 00:30:18.109 --> 00:30:20.730 money than God. We can do what we want and we 00:30:20.730 --> 00:30:23.430 can buy weapons. as much as we want through the 00:30:23.430 --> 00:30:26.589 Pentagon deal the fact that Trump said 00:30:26.589 --> 00:30:31.589 it the day of the election the day before obviously 00:30:32.259 --> 00:30:35.599 that's a nod to the fact that he knows his own 00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:40.250 base is sick of funding Israel but I don't think 00:30:40.250 --> 00:30:44.309 it changes the calculus too much in the sense 00:30:44.309 --> 00:30:47.289 that Israel still gets the protection of United 00:30:47.289 --> 00:30:50.990 States weapons so we have to be really diligent 00:30:53.380 --> 00:30:57.740 or should I say vigilant, about opposing this 00:30:57.740 --> 00:31:00.960 NDAA. Because this is stuff the Democrats do 00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:02.720 a lot, not that the Republicans don't, they're 00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:05.160 doing it here. And that is, look, we ended the 00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:08.000 aid to Israel, but they're still getting these 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:10.420 weapons. They're still committing genocide. They're 00:31:10.420 --> 00:31:12.460 still in a apartheid state. They're still attacking 00:31:12.460 --> 00:31:14.779 all their neighbors. They're still committing 00:31:14.779 --> 00:31:19.230 ethnic cleansing. and destroying southern Lebanon. 00:31:19.470 --> 00:31:23.269 They just had another incursion into Syria. They 00:31:23.269 --> 00:31:27.730 want to resume bombing Iran. Nothing changes 00:31:27.730 --> 00:31:31.630 just because we don't overtly give them the money. 00:31:32.029 --> 00:31:36.009 And I think I start to hope the American people 00:31:36.009 --> 00:31:40.069 are more sophisticated. It seems that they are 00:31:40.069 --> 00:31:42.849 at this point. I don't know what you guys think 00:31:42.849 --> 00:31:46.390 about that. The American public is sophisticated 00:31:46.390 --> 00:31:48.430 enough to know that Donald Trump is lying about 00:31:48.430 --> 00:31:52.440 the funding to Israel? Well, that anybody, because 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:55.539 Democrats will say it too. Chuck Schumer 00:31:55.539 --> 00:31:58.839 will probably crow about it and be well, 00:31:58.839 --> 00:32:02.579 we ended the overt aid and blah, blah, 00:32:02.599 --> 00:32:05.180 blah,

as if that solves the problem. You don't 00:32:05.180 --> 00:32:07.720 think that people - I don't think Americans are 00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:12.440 that sophisticated. I sit there, I listen. We 00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:14.420 played the clip of Mark Levin earlier this morning. 00:32:14.769 --> 00:32:21.509 where he's explaining to the audience. He directly 00:32:21.509 --> 00:32:24.630 says, it's not your fault. It's not my fault. 00:32:24.869 --> 00:32:28.109 It's not Trump's fault. It's the miscreants, 00:32:28.190 --> 00:32:32.750 the malcontents that went out and voted Democrats. 00:32:33.529 --> 00:32:35.009 And when you think about that, you're thinking 00:32:35.009 --> 00:32:37.349 to yourself, there's somebody, Mark Levin has 00:32:37.349 --> 00:32:40.150 a massive following. There are people who are 00:32:40.150 --> 00:32:42.559 sitting there listening to that. The statement 00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:45.359 doesn't make sense at all. Okay, I'm just going 00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:47.779 to push back on one thing. Yeah, Mark Levin, 00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:51.500 I've been looking at his posts since last night. 00:32:51.500 --> 00:32:55.579 He's a lunatic. He's completely lost his mind. 00:32:55.900 --> 00:33:00.900 Yes. Because he knows he and Lindsey Graham were 00:33:00.900 --> 00:33:02.839 in Trump's ear. because Mark Levin can 00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:06.400 call Trump. And Lindsey Graham, until God did 00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:09.519 his thing, was also on the phone with Trump or 00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:13.220 in person with Trump. all the time about why 00:33:13.220 --> 00:33:16.740 we need to go hard against Iran. Exactly. He's 00:33:16.740 --> 00:33:19.500 losing his mind. The only thing I push back against 00:33:19.500 --> 00:33:24.500 is he has a large audience, but they're all 00:33:24.500 --> 00:33:27.599 70 and above, right? No, no, I accept that. I 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:31.079 was using Levin just as a point of saying, whether 00:33:31.079 --> 00:33:33.660 it's the matters of the world, whether it's the 00:33:33.660 --> 00:33:35.119 Levin's of the world, whether it's the Democrats 00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:37.539 of the world, whatever, there's a large contingent 00:33:37.539 --> 00:33:39.759 of the American public that will hear that. And 00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:42.799 they're just busy doing their work. I think many 00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:45.680 times are news bites. So then the work is on 00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:48.539 us. Oh, I'm sorry to interrupt. We've got to 00:33:48.539 --> 00:33:51.119 carry that message out that this is not an ending 00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:54.900 of USA. It's transferring it so that Congress, 00:33:55.099 --> 00:33:58.859 read the people will no longer have 00:33:58.859 --> 00:34:02.880 any say of what we give Israel. And so I guess 00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:05.519 that's the work that's cut out for us to do. 00:34:05.779 --> 00:34:07.980 And as much as I have problems with the Democrat. 00:34:09.619 --> 00:34:13.219

party, there may be some people there who could 00:34:13.219 --> 00:34:17.480 talk about this. Well, I would hope. 00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:19.920 because you're right. Apparently, under that 00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:22.619 provision, there's a middleman. There's somebody 00:34:22.619 --> 00:34:25.719 who's supposed to be, I guess, in charge of dealing 00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:28.300 with it. But that guy is in the recesses, and 00:34:28.300 --> 00:34:30.380 we're supposed to believe that a group of Zionists 00:34:30.380 --> 00:34:33.460 are going to appoint a non-Zionist to deal with 00:34:33.460 --> 00:34:35.400 the weapon transfer to Israel, meaning they want 00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:36.940 to take it out of the limelight. They want it 00:34:36.940 --> 00:34:41.090 to be hidden and submerged within the bureaucratic 00:34:41.090 --> 00:34:43.070 structures as opposed to being this kind of big 00:34:43.070 --> 00:34:45.389 ticket item. This is why we still have to use 00:34:45.389 --> 00:34:51.039 the language of arms embargo. Because 00:34:51.059 --> 00:34:54.929 this is a fact, transfer of weapons to Israel 00:34:54.929 --> 00:34:58.349 while they have been found to have committed 00:34:58.349 --> 00:35:02.079 crimes against humanity is against. United States 00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:04.280 law. That's the Leahy Act. And there's another 00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:06.019 act, and I don't remember the name, that also 00:35:06.019 --> 00:35:09.460 covers some of that as well. So it wouldn't matter 00:35:09.460 --> 00:35:12.019 whether it was Deep State Don or whoever was 00:35:12.019 --> 00:35:15.000 the guy in charge of transferring and approving 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:17.239 these weapons transfers, which is going to happen 00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:22.500 if they merge in the NDAA. It's still a violation 00:35:22.500 --> 00:35:24.880 of law. So we need people out there saying it. 00:35:24.900 --> 00:35:30.010 It's got to be full arms embargo, including Iron 00:35:30.010 --> 00:35:32.730 Domes, quote unquote, defensive weapons. They 00:35:32.730 --> 00:35:36.469 use that so they can attack people freely. It's 00:35:36.469 --> 00:35:40.550 not just for protection. And so that we need 00:35:40.550 --> 00:35:42.889 to have those conversations. And who are the 00:35:42.889 --> 00:35:48.789 allies we have? Daria Liza Avila Chevalier just 00:35:48.789 --> 00:35:53.190 got elected in New York. Oh, was it 17? I can't 00:35:53.190 --> 00:35:56.099 remember, but it's in the city. Highly Democratic 00:35:56.099 --> 00:36:00.769 district. So she got 85% of the vote. She 00:36:00.769 --> 00:36:04.699 was one of the students at the Columbia encampment. 00:36:05.460 --> 00:36:08.119 Former student, but an alumnus, but still 00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:12.019 there. And was very prominent in that movement. 00:36:12.219 --> 00:36:17.230 She just tweeted out yesterday, we need a full 00:36:17.230 --> 00:36:19.889 arms embargo, not just a cutting off of aid. 00:36:20.449 --> 00:36:23.610 And she also mentioned she's pretty 00:36:23.610 --> 00:36:27.409 radical, the right of return. For Palestinians. 00:36:27.849 --> 00:36:30.590 Here's an incoming Democrat talking in that language. 00:36:30.809 --> 00:36:34.650 I know she's not going to have much power. And 00:36:34.750 --> 00:36:38.150 with the numbers the way they're going 00:36:38.150 --> 00:36:40.869 to be, people like her are not going to have 00:36:40.869 --> 00:36:43.150 that wedge influence that they could have had 00:36:43.150 --> 00:36:46.670 in 2021 when the quote unquote squad did not 00:36:46.670 --> 00:36:50.670 use their power. But that said, there are people 00:36:50.670 --> 00:36:52.929 that could be allies that speak about this and 00:36:52.929 --> 00:36:56.579 we need to get the message out with them. to 00:36:56.579 --> 00:36:58.679 prevent this because it will be a disaster. I 00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:02.179 keep hearing people say, once this happens, it's 00:37:02.179 --> 00:37:05.610 impossible to undo, which I don't understand, 00:37:05.829 --> 00:37:11.449 but it concerns me. I would go further. I don't 00:37:11.449 --> 00:37:13.309 think the United States should have diplomatic 00:37:13.309 --> 00:37:18.570 relations with Israel at this point. It's a rogue 00:37:18.570 --> 00:37:24.969 state. If we're spicy about Cuba, how are we 00:37:24.969 --> 00:37:29.150 hanging out with these people? so but anyway 00:37:29.150 --> 00:37:32.150 that that's a different subject no but I think 00:37:32.150 --> 00:37:34.369 you're right don't you think what you just 00:37:34.369 --> 00:37:36.690 said made me think if it was any other country 00:37:36.690 --> 00:37:39.690 that was doing this if it was any other country 00:37:39.690 --> 00:37:42.969 that killed this many American citizens right 00:37:42.969 --> 00:37:48.489 we would be sanctioning them 100 it's bizarre 00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:52.500 Yeah, it's just the thing is, it's also 00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:55.380 interesting to watch the sort of getting back to sort of how I came across 00:37:57.659 --> 00:38:02.619 you on social media. It's so amazing. The Zionist 00:38:02.619 --> 00:38:06.219 rhetoric, the Hasbara people who are, they're 00:38:06.219 --> 00:38:11.079 still continuing the same rhetoric, right? 00:38:11.079 --> 00:38:13.639 J.D. Vance has learned. Maybe Donald Trump has 00:38:13.639 --> 00:38:15.599 learned, but they haven't learned, right? They're 00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:19.360 still selling the same old tired narratives. 00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:22.280 God promised us this territory. We've 00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:24.320 been there the whole time, even though we weren't 00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:26.559 really there. But you were always 00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:33.900 on my mind. And it's if you're 00:38:33.900 --> 00:38:36.079 anti-Zionist, obviously you're anti-Semitic 00:38:36.079 --> 00:38:39.019 because Israel and all world Jews are the same 00:38:39.019 --> 00:38:42.670 thing. all this stuff.

And it doesn't 00:38:42.670 --> 00:38:46.710 work. It has it is dead. Nobody's afraid of them 00:38:46.710 --> 00:38:51.230 anymore. Nobody's buying into it. And yet they 00:38:51.230 --> 00:38:55.510 persist. I almost admire them. But 00:38:55.510 --> 00:38:58.050 you got to love that. I always tell my 00:38:58.050 --> 00:39:00.590 son, when he's hunting for a job, be 00:39:00.590 --> 00:39:03.409 persistent. But at a certain point, 00:39:03.510 --> 00:39:05.469 you also have to say, OK, this isn't working. 00:39:05.690 --> 00:39:07.630 they don't you're right. They 00:39:07.630 --> 00:39:10.230 don't stop. It's I keep seeing that term 00:39:10.230 --> 00:39:13.269 blood libel. if you say Israel 00:39:13.269 --> 00:39:16.909 killed six more children in Conunis. Blood libel. 00:39:17.190 --> 00:39:19.989 I hate it. They don't even know what blood libel 00:39:19.989 --> 00:39:23.409 means or they think we don't. Yeah, it's ridiculous. 00:39:23.909 --> 00:39:28.369 But what they lost? They lost 00:39:28.389 --> 00:39:31.989 they lost the narrative war badly. And again, 00:39:32.090 --> 00:39:35.369 it's not coming back. Look at Macklemore. He 00:39:35.369 --> 00:39:38.010 just sold out the, what is it? He had three 00:39:38.010 --> 00:39:41.019 or four concerts, Paris, Dublin. Did Wembley 00:39:41.019 --> 00:39:43.579 Stadium. They tried to stop them, but they couldn't. 00:39:43.579 --> 00:39:47.079 Sold out every show in minutes. poor 00:39:47.079 --> 00:39:50.099 Ed Sheeran. Guess you made the wrong decision, 00:39:50.260 --> 00:39:54.219 buddy. No doubt. Right? I guess, whatever. 00:39:54.219 --> 00:39:57.199 just write your love songs, I guess. That's 00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:02.460 your thing, man. But what does that say? Yeah. 00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:07.420 Especially, I almost said especially, especially 00:40:07.420 --> 00:40:12.300 the younger generation globally. Yeah. Has cannot 00:40:12.300 --> 00:40:17.159 stand Israel and rightly so. Right. Let's not 00:40:17.159 --> 00:40:20.480 forget. And I know you don't. This all Trump 00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:25.679 could not have done what he did in the way he 00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:31.139 did it, allowing Israel to just go crazy if it 00:40:31.139 --> 00:40:32.840 wasn't for the Biden and Harris administration, 00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:38.769 giving them a green light and no red lines. That 00:40:38.769 --> 00:40:41.510 happened for 15 months. And I guess 00:40:41.510 --> 00:40:45.070 you heard or saw even Israeli officials 00:40:45.070 --> 00:40:49.889 post Biden said we were shocked that they never 00:40:49.889 --> 00:40:53.250 they never kind of drew us in. They never reined 00:40:53.250 --> 00:40:57.219 us in and they never demanded a ceasefire, which 00:40:57.219 --> 00:41:00.360 that whole Kamala Harris. And that's getting 00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:03.039 into the AOC thing, that lie on the convention 00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:07.219 stage, that whole thing falls apart. And I think 00:41:07.219 --> 00:41:10.179 maybe it's worth a couple of minutes talking 00:41:10.179 --> 00:41:15.360 about what does that mean for candidates such 00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:18.639 as Kamala Harris, who absolutely wants to be 00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:22.019 president? What does it mean for someone like 00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:26.539 her? Have we crossed the Rubicon where enough 00:41:26.539 --> 00:41:30.980 voters, especially younger voters, are so disenchanted 00:41:30.980 --> 00:41:34.280 with the pro-Israel wing of, say, the Democratic 00:41:34.280 --> 00:41:37.849 Party and, of course, the Republicans? That nobody 00:41:37.849 --> 00:41:41.829 who's got that stink on them of that genocide 00:41:41.829 --> 00:41:44.550 can ever run again? I don't know. What 00:41:44.550 --> 00:41:48.159 do you guys think? I think it's a hard argument 00:41:48.159 --> 00:41:52.599 for him. imagine for the moment 00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:54.960 somebody made the argument to you. It's 00:41:54.980 --> 00:41:57.840 look, we need to sell the Nazis weapons, defensive 00:41:57.840 --> 00:41:59.760 weapons. It's only going to be defensive weapons. 00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:02.780 And it's yeah, but what do you think the 00:42:02.780 --> 00:42:04.619 Nazis are doing with the defensive weapons? They're 00:42:04.619 --> 00:42:08.489 preserving their ability to be Nazis. And when 00:42:08.489 --> 00:42:10.050 you're looking at this and people are making 00:42:10.050 --> 00:42:11.909 this argument, hey, we get that they're committing 00:42:11.909 --> 00:42:14.309 a genocide, but we should still give them defensive 00:42:14.309 --> 00:42:16.710 weapons. It's a very odd argument to make to 00:42:16.710 --> 00:42:19.769 me. And the younger generation, who's often politically 00:42:19.769 --> 00:42:22.590 fickle, looks at this and says, well, wait a 00:42:22.590 --> 00:42:25.230 minute, you're mass killing human beings. They're 00:42:25.230 --> 00:42:28.090 not callous enough to look at it they're 00:42:28.090 --> 00:42:30.849 old people and just kind of yeah, 00:42:30.889 --> 00:42:32.489 that stuff happens. No, they're looking at it 00:42:32.489 --> 00:42:33.789 in the way that they're supposed to look at it. 00:42:34.699 --> 00:42:36.880 the values that you instill in us say murder 00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:39.239 is wrong and they're murdering women and children 00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:42.360 in mass. That's wrong. Why are we doing that? 00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:44.239 Now, if you're a Democrat and you're trying to 00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:46.539 make that argument to justify it, I think you're 00:42:46.539 --> 00:42:48.960 going to have a hard way to go. and I 00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:50.739 don't know if you saw Annalena Baerbock when 00:42:50.739 --> 00:42:52.579 she was in, she was giving a speech. I forget 00:42:52.579 --> 00:42:54.699 where she was. And all of those young people 00:42:54.699 --> 00:42:57.320 came up and was screaming bloody murder at her. 00:42:57.659 --> 00:42:59.739 basically

calling her a genocidal monster for 00:42:59.739 --> 00:43:01.400 backing the genocide and for the things that 00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:03.280 she said. I think a similar trend is going to 00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:05.500 take place in the States. I think it is a hard 00:43:05.500 --> 00:43:10.099 go for any random Democrat who stood on stage 00:43:10.099 --> 00:43:13.079 and prevented Palestinian representatives to 00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:15.099 speak, many people who are representing Palestine 00:43:15.099 --> 00:43:17.659 to speak at the convention or to speak at all, 00:43:17.719 --> 00:43:19.699 meaning shouting them down at every particular 00:43:19.699 --> 00:43:22.960 turn. They made their allegiances very clear. 00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:26.820 How do you come back from that? And I think your 00:43:26.820 --> 00:43:29.099 point is Kamala Harris. If Kamala Harris is trying 00:43:29.099 --> 00:43:30.880 to run again, how does somebody Kamala Harris 00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:33.480 actually run again? There would need to be a 00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:35.639 full-throated apology. It probably wouldn't 00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:38.460 go far enough. It would never be enough. It could 00:43:38.460 --> 00:43:43.480 never be enough. That's the thing. I do think 00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:45.579 it's look, I'm going to go further. I think 00:43:45.579 --> 00:43:50.139 that even for most Republicans, that tie is going 00:43:50.139 --> 00:43:53.280 to be too much. It's going to be a loser. 00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:55.780 this is so, as a graphic artist, I always 00:43:55.780 --> 00:43:58.900 am attracted to visual politics, right? 00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:03.599 in the early 1960s, when white America saw images, 00:44:03.960 --> 00:44:09.480 televised images of young men and 00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:11.679 women in their Sunday best just trying to get 00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:14.900 a burger at the Woolworth's lunch encounter and 00:44:14.900 --> 00:44:17.789 a bunch of inbred Southern hick. 00:44:17.789 --> 00:44:20.190 sheriffs with their dogs and and fire 00:44:20.190 --> 00:44:23.250 hoses going after them they were shocked and 00:44:23.250 --> 00:44:26.469 that became something more that you 00:44:26.469 --> 00:44:28.650 they just couldn't forget that and and that was 00:44:28.650 --> 00:44:30.650 the beginning really seriously where 00:44:30.650 --> 00:44:33.230 the civil rights movement really caught fire 00:44:33.230 --> 00:44:36.710 in middle America and became normative and all 00:44:36.710 --> 00:44:39.510 that in Vietnam War it was a televised 00:44:39.510 --> 00:44:42.980 war with embedded, but independent, 00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:46.380 but hard hitting visual reports where 00:44:46.380 --> 00:44:49.079 that, that photo of the, of the South Vietnamese 00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:55.000 general executing a suspected Viet Minh soldier, 00:44:55.099 --> 00:44:57.900 in his plaid shirt, right on the street. 00:44:59.460 --> 00:45:01.300 Nobody's that was, you want a Pulitzer 00:45:01.300 --> 00:45:05.059 for Life magazine. That's those images, the girl 00:45:05.059 --> 00:45:07.719 running down the street naked, all those kinds 00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:11.090 of things. You just, This generation, people 00:45:11.090 --> 00:45:14.969 in their 20s, 30s, 40s, these images that 00:45:14.969 --> 00:45:18.849 coming out of Gaza, one after another, not even 00:45:18.849 --> 00:45:21.789 just on the 6:30 evening news with Tom Brokaw, 00:45:22.050 --> 00:45:25.630 but this is every day. It's 24-7. It's 00:45:25.630 --> 00:45:28.010 on their phone. It's living with them. It's not 00:45:28.010 --> 00:45:31.250 something that's compartmentalized. And they 00:45:31.250 --> 00:45:33.230 can look at it any time, and there's zillions 00:45:33.230 --> 00:45:38.289 of these images. The visuals are just, you can't. 00:45:38.539 --> 00:45:42.320 look away. Or you can't forget it if you do look 00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:46.440 away. And that part to me is curious, 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:50.139 why the Israelis never understood the information 00:45:50.139 --> 00:45:53.539 war aspect of all this. I have a theory 00:45:53.539 --> 00:45:56.079 about it, which is they live in a very 00:45:56.099 --> 00:45:58.340 having been there, they live in a very insular 00:45:58.340 --> 00:46:01.840 society, even the fact that they've adopted this. 00:46:02.219 --> 00:46:04.360 Language that no one else speaks in the entire 00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:08.480 world that was dead for 1900 years. It isolates 00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:10.460 them. They don't have I know a lot of 00:46:10.460 --> 00:46:12.559 them speak other languages, but it's they're 00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:15.300 still they have their heads up 00:46:15.300 --> 00:46:18.710 their ass basically collectively. I saw, I saw 00:46:18.710 --> 00:46:22.769 some interview within the past week of, I believe 00:46:22.769 --> 00:46:26.369 an Israeli Knesset member or somebody who's going 00:46:26.369 --> 00:46:29.449 to be in the Knesset and very, very right wing 00:46:29.449 --> 00:46:32.690 guy. And they asked him that question, 00:46:32.710 --> 00:46:35.750 don't you care that the world opinion has turned 00:46:35.750 --> 00:46:40.650 against you? And his answer was no, because we're 00:46:40.650 --> 00:46:45.360 right. And it's the world that should care that 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:50.079 we no longer like or trust them. Now, I don't 00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:52.119 know how representative that is, but I can't 00:46:52.119 --> 00:46:55.260 imagine he's the only one who thinks it. But 00:46:55.260 --> 00:46:58.159 they do think they're right. They do. 00:46:58.179 --> 00:47:00.460 if you look at the polling. look 00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:03.800 Netanyahu, despite everything, still won the 00:47:03.800 --> 00:47:06.460 most seats. Yeah. this is after October 00:47:06.460 --> 00:47:09.159 7th. Eisencott, is that his name? The 00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:12.280 opposition guy was in the government, worked

00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:14.820 in the defense, in the war department 00:47:14.820 --> 00:47:18.619 there and ordered horrendous things to happen. 00:47:19.019 --> 00:47:22.380 He said himself, I'm not a nice man. Yeah. I 00:47:22.380 --> 00:47:24.820 that's the kind of thing hey, I'm 00:47:24.820 --> 00:47:28.349 I'm. Just as much, if not more, psychopathic 00:47:28.349 --> 00:47:32.849 than Netanyahu. But I wouldn't let you down 00:47:32.849 --> 00:47:36.030 he did on October 7th. that's his message 00:47:36.030 --> 00:47:38.070 with a wink, not even a wink. He's saying it 00:47:38.070 --> 00:47:40.170 outright, which I think is interesting because 00:47:40.210 --> 00:47:43.369 the Democrats were praying, and probably 00:47:43.369 --> 00:47:46.230 some Republicans, of course, but the Democrats 00:47:46.230 --> 00:47:51.030 were praying that Netanyahu got cleanly removed, 00:47:51.369 --> 00:47:55.829 electorally. going back to 00:47:55.829 --> 00:47:59.409 that Kamala Harris discussion what they're doing 00:47:59.409 --> 00:48:01.869 is not thinking about how to change policy what 00:48:01.869 --> 00:48:03.730 they're doing is thinking about how to change 00:48:03.730 --> 00:48:06.889 messaging about that policy yes and if and if 00:48:06.889 --> 00:48:10.309 it wasn't Netanyahu they could say well we've 00:48:10.309 --> 00:48:12.130 got a new government and we're going to work 00:48:12.130 --> 00:48:16.110 with them and mistakes were made no 00:48:16.110 --> 00:48:18.690 ownership and they'll say all that but here's 00:48:18.690 --> 00:48:22.090 the thing that can't work either because once 00:48:22.090 --> 00:48:25.900 your new quote-unquote government continues 00:48:25.900 --> 00:48:30.239 to slaughter people in Gaza, to steal land and 00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:33.780 ethnically cleanse in the West Bank, to destroy 00:48:33.780 --> 00:48:36.739 southern Lebanon, when that keeps going on, and 00:48:36.739 --> 00:48:39.519 it will under an Eisencott, of course it will, 00:48:39.619 --> 00:48:43.949 your whole argument falls apart. I think this 00:48:43.949 --> 00:48:48.809 is a very defining moment and potentially a transformative 00:48:48.809 --> 00:48:52.530 one for the United States and for the world. 00:48:55.250 --> 00:48:58.110 Epstein was the beginning of that mask coming 00:48:58.110 --> 00:49:02.530 off. Folks us always kind of knew those 00:49:02.530 --> 00:49:08.030 things, that the capitalist empire 00:49:08.030 --> 00:49:15.059 is just evil, right? But a lot of people are 00:49:15.059 --> 00:49:18.139 seeing it now, and I don't think there's any 00:49:18.139 --> 00:49:22.320 unseeing it. Trust in government is low, not 00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:25.059 just here. Look what's happening in Europe. I 00:49:25.059 --> 00:49:29.059 don't think that you can put the horse back in 00:49:29.059 --> 00:49:31.900 the barn after the doors open or whatever 00:49:31.900 --> 00:49:35.539 And so here we are, I think it's a moment 00:49:35.539 --> 00:49:38.800 and they are, whoever those people are that are 00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:40.400 kind of trying to keep it all together. 00:49:42.030 --> 00:49:44.909 I think they're perplexed. They think they have 00:49:44.909 --> 00:49:48.829 moves on the chessboard, but I believe every 00:49:48.829 --> 00:49:53.469 move they make ends up eventually in checkmate 00:49:53.469 --> 00:49:57.239 for them. And it's as if they're running out 00:49:57.239 --> 00:49:59.929 the clock. That's what I think, too. I think 00:49:59.929 --> 00:50:02.829 they're out. I think there's literally nothing. 00:50:03.409 --> 00:50:06.610 Let's just say you were paid a billion 00:50:06.610 --> 00:50:11.599 dollars to do PR for the Israeli government and 00:50:11.599 --> 00:50:13.699 that they would agree to do anything that you 00:50:13.699 --> 00:50:17.260 told them. You still can't save their ass in 00:50:17.260 --> 00:50:21.760 40 or 50 years. or 20. there's 00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:24.920 nothing you can do. even if. They say, 00:50:25.079 --> 00:50:27.639 okay, we're going to now have a socialist government. 00:50:27.980 --> 00:50:31.460 We're going to open up all our files. We're withdrawing 00:50:31.460 --> 00:50:34.099 from the occupied territories. We're going to 00:50:34.099 --> 00:50:36.980 rebuild it all. We're going to grant the right 00:50:36.980 --> 00:50:40.079 of return to everyone since 1948, the whole thing. 00:50:40.860 --> 00:50:45.460 It's too late because it would be kind 00:50:45.460 --> 00:50:48.420 of Nazi Germany. after World War 00:50:48.420 --> 00:50:53.420 II, it took them decades to be. reintegrated 00:50:53.420 --> 00:50:58.320 psychologically and morally into Europe. It was 00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:02.219 kind of my mom worked at NATO headquarters 00:51:02.219 --> 00:51:05.559 when it was still in Paris. She was French. That's 00:51:05.559 --> 00:51:08.960 where my parents met. And this was in the early 00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:12.239 60s. So it was almost 20 years after the end 00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:14.489 of the war. And they brought in some secretaries 00:51:14.489 --> 00:51:16.309 from West Germany. My mom was an office manager. 00:51:16.590 --> 00:51:18.849 And my mom said that all the French employees 00:51:18.849 --> 00:51:21.250 took it upon themselves to, every time they saw 00:51:21.250 --> 00:51:23.630 one of the office pool women from West Germany 00:51:23.630 --> 00:51:26.389 go down to the bathroom, one of them was appointed, 00:51:26.389 --> 00:51:28.789 one of the Frenchies would follow down the hall 00:51:28.789 --> 00:51:32.469 and go in and outside the door, start reciting 00:51:32.469 --> 00:51:35.690 the names of death camps. Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, 00:51:35.829 --> 00:51:41.489 Mauthausen, Auschwitz. And it was just until 00:51:41.489 --> 00:51:44.110 they would reduce them to tears and they would 00:51:44.110 --> 00:51:46.949 demand to quit and go back to West Germany, right? 00:51:48.469 --> 00:51:52.070 It took years to

get past that. I don't think 00:51:52.070 --> 00:51:55.429 the Europeans really truly started to think the 00:51:55.429 --> 00:52:00.289 Germans were okay until the 80s. Maybe the Israelis 00:52:00.289 --> 00:52:04.150 could go through a process that. Maybe. 00:52:04.239 --> 00:52:06.539 They don't believe that they're doing anything 00:52:06.539 --> 00:52:09.460 wrong. Right. So, yeah, that's the thing, right? 00:52:09.579 --> 00:52:12.440 That's the issue. They haven't been broken 00:52:12.440 --> 00:52:15.360 the Germans were. You've got nine million 00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:19.000 people, 80 to 90 percent of which thinking murder 00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:21.639 and mass murder is perfectly acceptable and okay. 00:52:21.780 --> 00:52:23.860 I'll give you another stat. I don't know 00:52:23.860 --> 00:52:26.940 if you remember, I think it was Channel 4, after 00:52:26.940 --> 00:52:29.460 they raped that guy in the jail and they raped 00:52:29.460 --> 00:52:32.429 him on camera. And they bought it on the news 00:52:32.429 --> 00:52:35.670 and asked whether or not they approved that the 00:52:35.670 --> 00:52:37.409 soldiers doing this, meaning, is this OK? 00:52:37.550 --> 00:52:40.090 And 60 percent of the public says it's acceptable. 00:52:40.670 --> 00:52:43.309 Yeah. And then how do you deal with a country 00:52:43.309 --> 00:52:48.369 that? But feel it. So. Yeah, but it's just 00:52:48.369 --> 00:52:53.429 how do you how do you de-Zionize them? Well, 00:52:53.449 --> 00:52:57.150 they don't see Palestinians. And I won't. There 00:52:57.150 --> 00:53:02.340 is a peace movement in Israel. It's small. But 00:53:02.340 --> 00:53:05.500 there are folks there that think it's horrendous. 00:53:05.500 --> 00:53:07.960 There are young people there who resisted the 00:53:07.960 --> 00:53:11.280 military draft or everybody gets drafted 00:53:11.280 --> 00:53:13.780 in the military, right? Unless you're Orthodox, 00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:17.659 right? They don't have to serve. So that exists. 00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:24.650 It's just tiny. The vast majority of people, 00:53:24.769 --> 00:53:27.250 from what I can see in the polling and the interviews 00:53:27.250 --> 00:53:29.949 I've seen, Abby Martin has done a lot on this, 00:53:30.030 --> 00:53:34.170 which has been fantastic. Do not see Palestinians 00:53:34.530 --> 00:53:38.929 and Muslims in general, but especially Palestinians 00:53:38.929 --> 00:53:46.070 as human beings. So that once you no longer see 00:53:46.070 --> 00:53:51.119 your neighbor as human, if they're in your way, 00:53:51.320 --> 00:53:54.530 you do what you do. They're bulldozing 00:53:54.530 --> 00:53:59.639 people. They did that the flower massacre. 00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:03.119 Remember when these things were shocking, when 00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:07.820 they bombed al-Shifa hospital and Israel felt 00:54:07.820 --> 00:54:10.440 that they had to lie and say, oh, it was an errant 00:54:10.440 --> 00:54:14.019 missile from Hamas because they didn't want to 00:54:14.019 --> 00:54:15.820 admit it. Then they just got to the point where 00:54:15.820 --> 00:54:18.519 they were yeah, we bomb hospitals. The 00:54:18.519 --> 00:54:21.019 flower massacre, I remember people scrambling 00:54:21.019 --> 00:54:24.780 for food and they just opened fire on them. Tanks 00:54:24.780 --> 00:54:27.719 ran them over. That was shocking then. And all 00:54:27.719 --> 00:54:30.940 of a sudden, we didn't get numb to it. They just 00:54:30.940 --> 00:54:34.699 stopped giving a shit what we thought. And granted, 00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:38.500 at the time, you had a maniac in the White House, 00:54:39.780 --> 00:54:44.320 Joe Biden, who more than any president up till 00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:47.760 that point, gave them a blank check to do whatever. 00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:51.139 They want it. Kamala Harris did not speak up 00:54:51.139 --> 00:54:56.800 once, as we mentioned. So yeah what's 00:54:56.800 --> 00:55:01.590 this? You hear people Mearsheimer and other 00:55:01.590 --> 00:55:05.269 experts say I don't know how Israel continues. 00:55:06.250 --> 00:55:09.269 Lawrence Wilkerson has said similar things. He 00:55:09.269 --> 00:55:13.380 used to serve under Colin Powell. It was, I think, 00:55:13.380 --> 00:55:17.159 his chief of staff. So I had hope 00:55:17.159 --> 00:55:20.400 at some point. about the model of South Africa 00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:26.400 because they were able to and it's okay just 00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:28.119 to go on real quickly with this because I think 00:55:28.119 --> 00:55:31.780 it's integral here yeah the model of South Africa 00:55:31.780 --> 00:55:34.940 it it worked by the way it's not perfect 00:55:34.940 --> 00:55:42.099 no country is that said they were able to grant 00:55:42.099 --> 00:55:46.760 and allow equal rights and equal access for all 00:55:46.760 --> 00:55:52.989 their citizens And the country thrived. Again, 00:55:53.150 --> 00:55:55.949 it's got its problems, but it thrived. What they 00:55:55.949 --> 00:55:58.230 didn't do is they didn't go on mass killings, 00:55:58.230 --> 00:56:01.349 breeds of white Afrikaners. They didn't do that. 00:56:01.530 --> 00:56:04.010 And Mandela was instrumental in saying, this 00:56:04.010 --> 00:56:07.369 is not how we're moving forward. We will be different. 00:56:07.510 --> 00:56:11.309 And it worked. That was my hope for Israel, that 00:56:11.309 --> 00:56:14.309 you could have a state where everybody lived, 00:56:14.530 --> 00:56:19.869 maybe not harmoniously, but not violently. toward 00:56:19.869 --> 00:56:24.130 each other and now I'm what what what 00:56:24.130 --> 00:56:28.329 do we do with it now yeah I yeah that's 00:56:28.329 --> 00:56:31.769 the thing right the Germans were completely defeated 00:56:31.769 --> 00:56:38.130 apartheid South Africa was the white minority 00:56:38.130 --> 00:56:42.519 was a lot of there was a significant number of 00:56:42.519 --> 00:56:45.559 them who were not into

apartheid and were feeling 00:56:45.559 --> 00:56:48.610 that it wasn't compatible at the time 00:56:48.610 --> 00:56:53.590 in the 70s and 80s with the modern world and 00:56:53.590 --> 00:56:56.469 so I think it was it was the tide was 00:56:56.469 --> 00:56:59.610 running out but in Israel when there's 00:56:59.610 --> 00:57:02.929 a protest the protest is about getting the hostages 00:57:02.929 --> 00:57:05.929 back right it's it's it's not about they don't 00:57:05.929 --> 00:57:09.530 care seemingly even there's no left there's 00:57:09.530 --> 00:57:12.969 no liberals there's no 00:57:12.969 --> 00:57:17.230 a two right-wing fascist parties vying for control 00:57:17.230 --> 00:57:21.809 of the government right now. They would rather 00:57:21.809 --> 00:57:25.289 not form a government than get into an alliance 00:57:25.289 --> 00:57:28.469 with the Arab parties who performed really well. 00:57:28.730 --> 00:57:31.269 I guess it's I agree with you. 00:57:31.530 --> 00:57:36.469 Israel seems so morally depraved that 00:57:36.599 --> 00:57:39.000 maybe It just doesn't have the right to be 00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:41.719 a country anymore. ironically, the country 00:57:41.719 --> 00:57:43.820 that always argued, don't we have a right to 00:57:43.820 --> 00:57:47.539 exist? Maybe you're the one country that doesn't 00:57:47.539 --> 00:57:49.980 have a right to exist because of the way you've 00:57:49.980 --> 00:57:55.440 behaved. I'll be Pierce Morgan. So do you condemn 00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:59.599 Hamas, Ted? And do you believe Israel has the 00:57:59.599 --> 00:58:02.639 right to exist? Because he'll ask every pro-Palestine 00:58:02.639 --> 00:58:06.389 guest that. Although, by the way, I do appreciate 00:58:06.389 --> 00:58:09.369 the show because at least he has guests on that 00:58:09.369 --> 00:58:12.829 other people don't. I continually see people 00:58:12.829 --> 00:58:17.909 Abby Barton on there and all. So I won't 00:58:17.909 --> 00:58:20.230 say I'm a fan, but I appreciate that that forum 00:58:20.230 --> 00:58:24.130 is available. So a couple of things, though, 00:58:24.210 --> 00:58:28.210 that you're making me think, which is I always 00:58:28.210 --> 00:58:31.570 have this. I won't say I'm a cockeyed optimist. 00:58:31.949 --> 00:58:34.789 But I always have this, I see cracks in 00:58:34.789 --> 00:58:40.130 the veneer. And B'Tselem is a human rights 00:58:40.130 --> 00:58:43.170 organization in Israel made up of Israelis. And 00:58:43.170 --> 00:58:45.389 they declared it a genocide over a year ago. 00:58:45.769 --> 00:58:50.210 So did Physicians for Human Rights Israel. Those 00:58:50.210 --> 00:58:53.190 people take great risk. I know there's some critiques 00:58:53.190 --> 00:58:56.969 of Naza, the film, but the fact that it was made 00:58:56.969 --> 00:59:03.460 at all by Israelis is, I believe. a consequential 00:59:03.460 --> 00:59:06.820 thing I think it's worth looking at and 00:59:06.820 --> 00:59:10.900 the the thing the piece that's missing is the 00:59:10.900 --> 00:59:14.079 economic pressure because South Africa had the 00:59:14.079 --> 00:59:16.860 economic pressure so some people just said 00:59:16.860 --> 00:59:19.980 what this system is kind of screwed up and 00:59:19.980 --> 00:59:24.179 we're not thriving because of it let's look at 00:59:24.179 --> 00:59:27.619 how things could be different there is no economic 00:59:27.619 --> 00:59:30.659 pressure on Israel right now to do that and and 00:59:30.659 --> 00:59:35.369 I want to make the link here the students at 00:59:35.369 --> 00:59:40.849 Columbia and then at other schools who did those 00:59:40.849 --> 00:59:45.809 encampments their main demand was divestment 00:59:45.809 --> 00:59:50.949 of their universities from right Israel and companies 00:59:50.949 --> 00:59:53.710 doing business with Israel especially those involved 00:59:53.710 --> 00:59:59.630 in the genocide and they modeled it after the 00:59:59.630 --> 01:00:03.710 campus divestment movement against South Africa, 01:00:03.869 --> 01:00:07.630 which was successful. Remember, it started on 01:00:07.630 --> 01:00:11.070 campuses and then all of a sudden there were 01:00:11.070 --> 01:00:13.769 a whole bunch of universities that were doing 01:00:13.769 --> 01:00:17.170 that divestment. And then it jumped to municipalities 01:00:17.170 --> 01:00:20.710 where cities started divesting their pension 01:00:20.710 --> 01:00:26.889 funds from South Africa. Those were the dominoes 01:00:26.889 --> 01:00:30.519 that fell. So when the encampment happened at 01:00:30.519 --> 01:00:34.550 Columbia, the discussions were, we cannot 01:00:34.550 --> 01:00:38.909 allow this to continue because we cannot have 01:00:38.909 --> 01:00:41.849 this economic pressure put on Israel. So we will 01:00:41.849 --> 01:00:45.829 violently remove them. And again, side note, 01:00:45.889 --> 01:00:49.230 one of those students that was violently treated 01:00:49.230 --> 01:00:54.170 by the NYPD on the Columbia campus is now, will 01:00:54.170 --> 01:00:58.559 be the sitting Democratic representative, for 01:00:58.559 --> 01:01:01.719 the district that Columbia is in. I love that. 01:01:01.960 --> 01:01:04.300 I know. And I know there's a bunch of folks on 01:01:04.300 --> 01:01:06.960 the left that are don't trust any Democrat. 01:01:07.179 --> 01:01:10.219 I'm yeah, but the people I know who know, 01:01:10.300 --> 01:01:13.260 I haven't met and spoken to Daria Liza, but I 01:01:13.260 --> 01:01:15.800 was at that encampment. But those that I know 01:01:15.800 --> 01:01:20.039 who know her are yeah, she's not going 01:01:20.199 --> 01:01:24.110 down that AOC route. That's not she 01:01:24.110 --> 01:01:26.949 literally is an activist for this reason she 01:01:26.949 --> 01:01:30.909 ran. But they nipped that in the bud. They had 01:01:30.909 --> 01:01:35.650 to do it because the fear was, we know that the 01:01:35.650 --> 01:01:38.670 divestment movement is moral and

right. We cannot 01:01:38.670 --> 01:01:42.699 let it catch on. So now Israel does not have 01:01:42.699 --> 01:01:47.429 that economic pressure. What makes things turn? 01:01:47.929 --> 01:01:52.289 How do you, what do you do? I think the economic 01:01:52.289 --> 01:01:56.610 pressure is coming. I think that's next 01:01:56.610 --> 01:01:59.159 in the cards for them. The moment that they lose 01:01:59.159 --> 01:02:02.469 political support. Yeah. Yeah. 01:02:02.489 --> 01:02:04.750 just think about people don't, people, 01:02:04.949 --> 01:02:09.090 when I talk to people sometimes oh, would 01:02:09.090 --> 01:02:11.590 you take a job in Israel or working 01:02:11.590 --> 01:02:14.320 for an Israeli company? And people are 01:02:14.340 --> 01:02:17.179 they look at you are you fucking serious? 01:02:17.400 --> 01:02:20.920 fuck no. For no amount of money. 01:02:20.960 --> 01:02:23.949 that's. the standard reaction among educated 01:02:23.949 --> 01:02:27.150 people now that's by the way if you have to 01:02:27.150 --> 01:02:30.449 put a million dollars into a campaign that doesn't 01:02:30.449 --> 01:02:33.170 mean that means you're not popular right right 01:02:33.170 --> 01:02:36.289 it's not worth it to take much money I if I were 01:02:36.289 --> 01:02:38.130 a candidate I wouldn't want a 20 million dollar 01:02:38.130 --> 01:02:41.329 donation from AIPAC it's bad for you it'll hurt 01:02:41.329 --> 01:02:43.429 you it's not worth it even found that out the 01:02:43.429 --> 01:02:47.289 hard way yeah Steven said nothing they're doing 01:02:47.289 --> 01:02:51.170 is working they forced Remember, Biden was the 01:02:51.170 --> 01:02:54.010 one who originally started the initiative of 01:02:54.010 --> 01:02:56.389 forcing the sale of TikTok. That happened under 01:02:56.389 --> 01:02:59.449 Biden, and it was completed under Trump. And 01:02:59.449 --> 01:03:03.349 they sold it to Ellison family, huge 01:03:03.349 --> 01:03:05.969 supporters of the IDF, which are it's 01:03:05.969 --> 01:03:08.510 a criminal organization, the IDF. They're 01:03:08.510 --> 01:03:11.809 they're horrendous. And huge supporters 01:03:11.809 --> 01:03:15.010 of Israel because of all the TikToks. And 01:03:15.010 --> 01:03:18.869 kids and young adults were talking and 01:03:18.869 --> 01:03:23.170 educating each other about what was going on 01:03:23.170 --> 01:03:25.949 in Palestine and the West Bank and Lebanon, et 01:03:25.949 --> 01:03:28.730 cetera. And they couldn't have it. So they sold 01:03:28.730 --> 01:03:30.809 it and the algorithm was completely changed. 01:03:31.130 --> 01:03:36.659 But what? They didn't stop it. So that's 01:03:36.659 --> 01:03:39.340 a desperate move. All the things we're seeing, 01:03:39.579 --> 01:03:44.090 the attack of Iran, all of it, the selling of 01:03:44.090 --> 01:03:49.159 CBS, Takeover. the CNN takeover, all of it's 01:03:49.159 --> 01:03:52.480 desperate. It's not going to work. It can't work. 01:03:52.840 --> 01:03:55.039 It's just yeah, they're just going up against 01:03:55.039 --> 01:03:57.699 too much. to wrap up, I've been dying 01:03:57.699 --> 01:04:01.340 to ask you, Professor, how is it? So 01:04:01.360 --> 01:04:03.639 I went to Columbia University as an engineering 01:04:03.639 --> 01:04:07.760 student from 81 to 84. I was in the divestment, 01:04:07.760 --> 01:04:11.539 the South Africa divestment movement. So I was 01:04:11.539 --> 01:04:14.219 an activist on campus. And then in 1991, I returned 01:04:14.219 --> 01:04:16.969 and I got my degree in history. from GS, the 01:04:16.969 --> 01:04:19.090 School of General Studies, which is for adults 01:04:19.090 --> 01:04:26.179 returning students. And so I was appalled when 01:04:26.179 --> 01:04:30.579 our alma mater, Columbia University, they expelled 01:04:30.579 --> 01:04:34.159 countless students who participated in these 01:04:34.159 --> 01:04:38.500 peaceful protests. They they also got they suspended 01:04:38.500 --> 01:04:41.519 people. They got rid of student groups. My favorite 01:04:41.519 --> 01:04:44.039 one that they got rid of is Jewish Voice for 01:04:44.039 --> 01:04:46.400 Peace. You got rid of Jewish Voice for Peace. 01:04:47.139 --> 01:04:50.019 where do you think you stand ideologically 01:04:50.019 --> 01:04:54.159 when you find yourself banning that? And and 01:04:54.199 --> 01:04:56.769 they haven't brought them back. 01:04:56.769 --> 01:04:58.909 there's the horrific way that they treated 01:04:58.909 --> 01:05:01.750 Mahmoud Khalil, their graduate from the grad 01:05:01.750 --> 01:05:05.590 school. They expelled, they fired professors. 01:05:05.929 --> 01:05:08.989 They took away students' degrees that they had 01:05:08.989 --> 01:05:11.710 earned, stripped them of their degrees. 01:05:11.809 --> 01:05:15.969 Colombia was on a rampage. They still haven't 01:05:15.969 --> 01:05:18.170 reopened the campus to the neighborhood. They 01:05:18.170 --> 01:05:21.190 effectively stole an entire city street, which 01:05:21.190 --> 01:05:24.820 by law belongs to the city of New York. the 116th 01:05:24.820 --> 01:05:26.980 between Broadway and Amsterdam. They locked it 01:05:26.980 --> 01:05:29.920 up and nobody's allowed to walk on it unless 01:05:29.920 --> 01:05:33.239 they have an ID. And as an alumnus, you have 01:05:33.239 --> 01:05:35.059 to now, I used to have an alumni card that would 01:05:35.059 --> 01:05:37.260 allow me to go use the library. Now it's a whole 01:05:37.260 --> 01:05:39.840 Mishigas and almost impossible. His point is, 01:05:39.860 --> 01:05:43.860 how are you, how do you feel when you speak 01:05:43.860 --> 01:05:47.539 out publicly being a Columbia employee? 01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:49.019 are you catching shit from the administration? 01:05:52.800 --> 01:05:58.800 The, the, Efforts to get me to get me fired from 01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:03.340 both both schools go back to Biden administration 01:06:03.340 --> 01:06:07.079 stuff. Me speaking out

against Biden, things 01:06:07.079 --> 01:06:12.219 that. But, yeah, they amped up under 01:06:12.409 --> 01:06:14.250 when I started speaking out against the 01:06:14.250 --> 01:06:16.170 apartheid state of Israel committing genocide 01:06:16.170 --> 01:06:21.860 against the Palestinians. And so. Here's what 01:06:21.860 --> 01:06:24.139 I can say. A couple of things. And by the way, 01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:25.880 seriously, if you don't feel you can comment. 01:06:25.960 --> 01:06:29.000 No, no, no. Yeah. No, there are things that I 01:06:29.000 --> 01:06:31.559 want to share. I noticed, and then I'll deal 01:06:31.559 --> 01:06:33.760 with me last. I'm the least important piece here 01:06:33.760 --> 01:06:36.300 as far as I'm concerned. But I noticed a change 01:06:36.300 --> 01:06:40.260 on campus. First of all, some of my students, 01:06:40.460 --> 01:06:44.619 my former students, were suspended. There's one 01:06:44.619 --> 01:06:48.420 I'm thinking of who has a three-year suspension. 01:06:49.389 --> 01:06:58.099 Wow. And the most thoughtful and compassionate, 01:06:58.440 --> 01:07:00.079 one of the most thoughtful and compassionate 01:07:00.079 --> 01:07:02.480 students. This is a person that doesn't hate 01:07:02.480 --> 01:07:07.780 anyone, let alone specifically hating 01:07:07.780 --> 01:07:11.400 Jewish people. that was never part of this 01:07:11.400 --> 01:07:14.500 student movement. No. The anti-Semitism thing 01:07:14.500 --> 01:07:19.699 at Columbia is a total lie. I was there. At the 01:07:19.699 --> 01:07:22.119 encampment when they had, because it was in April, 01:07:22.179 --> 01:07:25.500 right around Passover and Easter time. I was 01:07:25.500 --> 01:07:28.860 there when they had a Seder. So many Jewish students 01:07:28.860 --> 01:07:31.719 were there. it was just, it was a huge 01:07:31.719 --> 01:07:35.019 part of it. And it was almost celebratory. And 01:07:35.019 --> 01:07:38.239 the mood in that encampment was just, it reminded 01:07:38.239 --> 01:07:41.980 me of the early days of Occupy where there was 01:07:41.980 --> 01:07:44.519 just this camaraderie. And it was really a beautiful 01:07:44.519 --> 01:07:48.739 thing. That said. No evidence of this, but I 01:07:48.739 --> 01:07:52.380 noticed a change in the students, the incoming 01:07:52.380 --> 01:07:56.480 students that were coming to my classes, less 01:07:56.480 --> 01:08:00.920 politically active, right? And so I don't know 01:08:00.920 --> 01:08:04.860 for a fact that they screened out those who were 01:08:04.860 --> 01:08:09.610 vocal on social media or whatever, as far as 01:08:09.610 --> 01:08:11.690 admitting them, but I noticed a change in the 01:08:11.690 --> 01:08:14.929 students. Could it also be self-selection? If 01:08:14.929 --> 01:08:16.649 you're a student trying to choose between 01:08:16.649 --> 01:08:20.090 six schools, do you go to the one that's just 01:08:20.090 --> 01:08:23.329 six of the cops on current students? Well, 01:08:23.350 --> 01:08:26.270 yes. And here's an interesting piece, 01:08:26.350 --> 01:08:29.510 though. This happened to me last semester. Guys, 01:08:29.609 --> 01:08:31.409 I'm sorry to interrupt. I do have to go because 01:08:31.409 --> 01:08:33.649 I have an interview coming up immediately. 01:08:33.970 --> 01:08:37.069 Okay. But it is really good to meet you, and 01:08:37.069 --> 01:08:39.010 I really hope you come back. It would be great. 01:08:39.210 --> 01:08:43.630 Jamarl, you too. I'll wrap it up here. And Jamarl, 01:08:43.670 --> 01:08:45.970 I'll talk to you later. Have a good one, guys. 01:08:46.250 --> 01:08:50.529 All right. Take care. I'm sorry. No, no, no. 01:08:50.529 --> 01:08:53.170 This was a great conversation. I stayed because 01:08:53.170 --> 01:08:57.029 I wanted to. It's totally cool. We're good. Here's 01:08:57.029 --> 01:09:00.750 an interesting thing that students have told 01:09:00.750 --> 01:09:04.869 me. And it was the past few semesters. So this 01:09:04.869 --> 01:09:10.390 semester. And then. last year, the fall and the 01:09:10.390 --> 01:09:14.810 spring semesters last year, I had students say 01:09:14.810 --> 01:09:19.310 to me, I thought we weren't supposed to talk 01:09:19.310 --> 01:09:23.130 about Palestine. So I'm not teaching geopolitics. 01:09:23.130 --> 01:09:27.130 So it's not something that I'm teaching 01:09:27.130 --> 01:09:29.890 a course on substance abuse or I'm teaching a 01:09:29.890 --> 01:09:33.340 course on human behavior. If anything geopolitical 01:09:33.340 --> 01:09:35.680 is relevant to the discussion, it'll get brought 01:09:35.680 --> 01:09:38.020 in. But I tell the students at the beginning 01:09:38.020 --> 01:09:40.420 of each semester, we can talk about anything 01:09:40.420 --> 01:09:43.239 respectfully. Even if you don't agree with what 01:09:43.239 --> 01:09:45.739 someone says, you can respectfully disagree with 01:09:45.739 --> 01:09:49.220 it. Just back it up. But I've had students say 01:09:49.220 --> 01:09:52.100 in each of these semesters, I thought we weren't 01:09:52.100 --> 01:09:56.890 allowed to talk about Gaza. So that was an impression. 01:09:57.090 --> 01:09:59.930 And I said, no, in my class, you can talk about 01:09:59.930 --> 01:10:02.420 anything. And again, I'm not. teaching about 01:10:02.420 --> 01:10:07.159 that but I'll refer to the children of Ukraine 01:10:07.159 --> 01:10:11.460 being traumatized because of the Soviet and Soviet 01:10:11.460 --> 01:10:16.529 oh my god because of the war absolutely they 01:10:16.529 --> 01:10:20.970 are and I've I'm not going to ignore the 01:10:20.970 --> 01:10:23.409 fact that the children of Gaza and this was according 01:10:23.409 --> 01:10:28.930 to research prior to even Hamas coming on the 01:10:28.930 --> 01:10:32.750 scene the children of Gaza are And this is backed 01:10:32.750 --> 01:10:36.989 up by science. People, even from Israel who investigated 01:10:36.989 --> 01:10:39.069 it, are the most traumatized children in

the 01:10:39.069 --> 01:10:41.590 world. And that was before October 7th and the 01:10:41.590 --> 01:10:44.970 ensuing genocide after. But I can say that students 01:10:44.970 --> 01:10:48.729 were told or had the belief that they could not 01:10:48.729 --> 01:10:53.539 discuss it. That seems to be shifting now. There 01:10:53.539 --> 01:10:56.920 have been some events that happened on campus 01:10:56.920 --> 01:11:00.680 recently. One was a vigil a couple of weeks ago. 01:11:01.810 --> 01:11:06.289 for the victims of the Gaza genocide. And that 01:11:06.289 --> 01:11:10.250 the administration did move it. last minute, 01:11:10.350 --> 01:11:12.649 they said it can be here. And then they're 01:11:12.729 --> 01:11:14.609 no, it's going to be there. So those games are 01:11:14.609 --> 01:11:18.550 happening. But I think the air has been taken 01:11:18.550 --> 01:11:20.470 out of that balloon where they think they can 01:11:20.470 --> 01:11:23.350 act, they being the administration, with impunity. 01:11:23.909 --> 01:11:26.750 Mamdani administration is going to be suing Columbia, 01:11:26.850 --> 01:11:29.770 last I heard, to open the gates. The gates should 01:11:29.770 --> 01:11:35.380 be open. And when you're on the wrong 01:11:35.380 --> 01:11:40.430 side and the majority of Americans believes that 01:11:40.430 --> 01:11:43.890 it is the wrong side, what is your argument to 01:11:43.890 --> 01:11:46.869 continue? And they have to look at their legacy 01:11:46.869 --> 01:11:50.449 as a school. They banned Mahmoud Khalil from 01:11:50.449 --> 01:11:52.649 coming onto campus for the past more than year 01:11:52.649 --> 01:11:56.489 and a half. Yeah. But he just was able to go 01:11:56.489 --> 01:12:01.409 there last week. He filed suit too, right? He 01:12:01.409 --> 01:12:04.729 filed suit. They're not dumb. So, of course, 01:12:04.789 --> 01:12:07.090 they're going to lose and they know it. Yeah, 01:12:07.149 --> 01:12:10.390 they're going to have to pay. I saw 01:12:10.390 --> 01:12:13.189 something which made me sad and I wasn't there 01:12:13.189 --> 01:12:17.010 in person when it happened, but it was a young 01:12:17.010 --> 01:12:21.539 woman. I'm assuming a student looked she 01:12:21.539 --> 01:12:23.239 was in her 20s and she was being interviewed 01:12:23.239 --> 01:12:28.789 and it was on. Social media was one 01:12:28.789 --> 01:12:31.189 of these videos on social media of some event 01:12:31.189 --> 01:12:34.010 happening at Columbia. I don't know when the 01:12:34.010 --> 01:12:36.350 event was, but I think it was not during the 01:12:36.350 --> 01:12:38.050 encampments. I think it was after. So it was 01:12:38.050 --> 01:12:42.260 within the past year. And some students were 01:12:42.260 --> 01:12:45.880 waving a Palestinian flag. And this young woman 01:12:45.880 --> 01:12:50.600 was was tearful. She was weeping and she was 01:12:50.600 --> 01:12:53.920 pleading with the security. How can you let them 01:12:53.920 --> 01:12:58.369

fly this flag? I'm paraphrasing. And they said 01:12:58.489 --> 01:13:01.909 they're allowed to do that there. And 01:13:01.909 --> 01:13:07.489 this student, seriously, said through tears, 01:13:07.750 --> 01:13:11.449 but they're trying to kill me. They want to kill 01:13:11.449 --> 01:13:16.789 me. And it made me sad because this is not just 01:13:16.789 --> 01:13:21.149 somebody with a different global view. Something, 01:13:21.289 --> 01:13:27.229 if that's your mentality. people 01:13:27.229 --> 01:13:28.930 talk about Mahmoud Khalil and they're oh, 01:13:28.949 --> 01:13:31.050 he's a jihadist. He should be deported. You hear 01:13:31.050 --> 01:13:33.050 all the conservatives saying that. Well, not 01:13:33.050 --> 01:13:35.689 just conservatives, right? Yeah. Pro-Israel 01:13:35.689 --> 01:13:38.729 folks. Meanwhile, he was the person who negotiated 01:13:38.729 --> 01:13:41.670 between the encampment and the school and is 01:13:41.670 --> 01:13:45.750 one of the most soft-spoken, gentle, non 01:13:45.750 --> 01:13:50.989 -angry people. And so there's this disconnect. 01:13:55.229 --> 01:13:57.369 But they're again, cracks in the veneer. 01:13:57.409 --> 01:13:59.569 Maybe that should be on the blackboard behind 01:13:59.569 --> 01:14:03.670 me as the recurring theme for our conversation 01:14:03.670 --> 01:14:07.489 as we wrap it up. And that is the 01:14:07.489 --> 01:14:10.310 security told her, no, they can be there. So 01:14:10.310 --> 01:14:15.029 there is an evolution happening. But what happened 01:14:15.029 --> 01:14:16.609 on the campus wasn't good. And as far as I'm 01:14:16.609 --> 01:14:20.149 concerned it hasn't changed the way that 01:14:20.149 --> 01:14:24.369 I speak out about the issue. Nobody has formally 01:14:24.369 --> 01:14:27.090 talked to me and said, listen, you can't advocate 01:14:27.090 --> 01:14:34.659 for Palestine. So who knows? the university 01:14:34.659 --> 01:14:36.680 may have a sense that they've over that they 01:14:36.680 --> 01:14:40.760 went too far. I think they do. I I 01:14:41.880 --> 01:14:44.760 have problems with private schools. 01:14:44.779 --> 01:14:47.600 I get the whole idea of charging that much 01:14:47.600 --> 01:14:49.840 for an educational. But what? The social 01:14:49.840 --> 01:14:52.199 work department at Columbia is excellent. It's 01:14:52.199 --> 01:14:56.970 got a really solid. rooted in social justice 01:14:56.970 --> 01:15:01.510 and global justice foundation to it. And I love 01:15:01.510 --> 01:15:03.210 my students and I love being good. You're not 01:15:03.210 --> 01:15:06.960 in the business school. Yeah. Well, there were 01:15:06.960 --> 01:15:09.899 some people there that didn't like me. They're 01:15:09.899 --> 01:15:12.500 not there anymore. I'm not surprised. 01:15:12.500 --> 01:15:14.399 no, I got to say personally, just to 01:15:14.399 --> 01:15:16.619 echo your, your, your experience there with the 01:15:16.619 --> 01:15:19.060 woman. I hope it's not the same woman that we 01:15:19.060 --> 01:15:21.520 saw. I was there for the, during the encampments 01:15:21.520 --> 01:15:26.840 in April of 2025. And, I used my alumni ID to 01:15:26.840 --> 01:15:32.600 get in, and I did a show from there. At one point, 01:15:32.680 --> 01:15:35.939 it was in the morning. It was sleepy. People 01:15:35.939 --> 01:15:38.220 were hanging out in their tents in the encampments. 01:15:38.279 --> 01:15:41.500 There was literally absolutely nothing going 01:15:41.500 --> 01:15:46.439 on. No chanting, no parade, no one waving any 01:15:46.439 --> 01:15:49.079 signs. Literally, you could hardly even see anyone 01:15:49.079 --> 01:15:53.750 walking around. Nothing is going on. I was really 01:15:53.750 --> 01:15:57.350 disappointed. And I encountered this woman who 01:15:57.350 --> 01:16:02.149 was with a guy who was a rabbi, and clearly, 01:16:02.329 --> 01:16:07.170 and she collapsed into his arms, sobbing 01:16:07.170 --> 01:16:11.529 hysterically. How could they think that? How 01:16:11.529 --> 01:16:16.109 could they think that? How is it possible? And 01:16:16.109 --> 01:16:19.470 I was this is psychotic. This is 01:16:19.470 --> 01:16:24.859 in your mind. This is you think you've been 01:16:24.890 --> 01:16:28.649 propagandized. These people do not want to hurt 01:16:28.649 --> 01:16:31.810 you. Hell, most of them are Jewish themselves. 01:16:32.649 --> 01:16:36.949 it was it blew my mind because I literally 01:16:36.949 --> 01:16:39.609 was looking around oh, maybe I'm going 01:16:39.609 --> 01:16:41.449 to be I'm going to break news. I'm going to see 01:16:41.449 --> 01:16:44.970 an actual incident of anti-Semitism on the Columbia 01:16:44.970 --> 01:16:48.529 campus. I read the I read the report in detail 01:16:48.529 --> 01:16:51.829 carefully. There's actually there's no there 01:16:51.829 --> 01:16:55.949 there. There's no substance at all. There's literally 01:16:55.949 --> 01:16:58.470 was I you would expect that there would 01:16:58.470 --> 01:17:00.930 have been anti-Semitic incidents in a politically 01:17:00.930 --> 01:17:04.430 charged political event about the 01:17:04.430 --> 01:17:07.850 Middle East conflict on the campus. But basically, 01:17:08.010 --> 01:17:11.029 I think there's more anti-Semitism everywhere 01:17:11.029 --> 01:17:13.510 else. there was just really nothing there. 01:17:13.689 --> 01:17:18.949 In fact, if there was any bigotry at any of these. 01:17:19.829 --> 01:17:22.369 at the encampments or protests it would have 01:17:22.369 --> 01:17:24.609 been policed by the students and faculty that 01:17:24.609 --> 01:17:26.789 were involved right would never be allowed not 01:17:26.789 --> 01:17:29.210 because it doesn't look good but because it's 01:17:29.210 --> 01:17:33.489 repugnant right right and I did hear bigotry 01:17:33.489 --> 01:17:38.810 at the protests on on the on Broadway right 01:17:38.810 --> 01:17:43.029 outside the gates to some of those and the bigotry 01:17:43.029

--> 01:17:45.289 was coming from the pro-Israel people who were 01:17:45.289 --> 01:17:47.619 not part of the campus they were just 01:17:47.619 --> 01:17:49.960 people from New York I guess that came and pro 01:17:49.960 --> 01:17:53.800 counter-protested saying and shouting 01:17:53.800 --> 01:17:58.310 vile things right all of them but many of 01:17:58.310 --> 01:18:02.369 them and and that shocked me too yeah I grew 01:18:02.369 --> 01:18:05.430 up in I'm from the I'm a New York kid 01:18:05.430 --> 01:18:08.430 I grew up in the city and my thing is 01:18:08.430 --> 01:18:10.670 yeah you see protests in the city all the time 01:18:10.670 --> 01:18:13.109 if it's something you want no part of you just 01:18:13.109 --> 01:18:17.649 walk across the street It's it's New York. You're 01:18:17.649 --> 01:18:21.449 going to see shit you don't like. And so that's 01:18:21.449 --> 01:18:24.770 just normal. But what I saw their reaction and 01:18:24.770 --> 01:18:30.109 it was a reaction to just the fact that there 01:18:30.489 --> 01:18:34.270 were people that stood in solidarity with Palestinians 01:18:34.270 --> 01:18:39.300 because and who talks about this? Katie 01:18:39.300 --> 01:18:43.930 Helper, Aaron Mate, both who were Jewish. I think 01:18:43.930 --> 01:18:46.329 Aaron did the birthright thing. So they have 01:18:46.329 --> 01:18:48.489 a thing. They do a podcast, which is excellent. 01:18:48.670 --> 01:18:50.569 I think Katie and Aaron do great work 01:18:50.569 --> 01:18:55.079 called Useful Idiots. They both talked about 01:18:55.079 --> 01:18:57.460 their journeys with it. So was Max Blumenthal 01:18:57.460 --> 01:19:01.909 and who's excellent and works with 01:19:01.930 --> 01:19:05.409 with Aaron at the Gray Zone. And so they 01:19:05.890 --> 01:19:09.109 talk about the programming and how that was difficult 01:19:09.109 --> 01:19:11.350 for them because they just thought this was, 01:19:11.430 --> 01:19:14.310 I listen in the peace movement the justice 01:19:14.310 --> 01:19:16.529 movement that when I first got involved as a 01:19:16.529 --> 01:19:20.670 18 19 year old and then in my early 20s 01:19:20.670 --> 01:19:26.479 us leftists we looked at Israel as the icon 01:19:26.479 --> 01:19:31.199 of socialism because of the kibbutzim and I remember 01:19:31.199 --> 01:19:34.600 wanting to go people were you got to go 01:19:34.600 --> 01:19:37.640 there it's communal living the kibbutzim Tel 01:19:37.640 --> 01:19:43.100 Aviv city but And it was this thing. And I 01:19:43.100 --> 01:19:45.439 remember thinking when I knew very little to 01:19:45.439 --> 01:19:48.560 nothing about the conflict, why would anyone 01:19:48.560 --> 01:19:53.619 try to hurt that country? Because it's doing 01:19:53.619 --> 01:19:58.420 all these very progressive things. So we didn't 01:19:58.420 --> 01:20:01.619 know the story. I was not educated. And I'm not 01:20:01.619 --> 01:20:04.779 Jewish. But that's how we saw it. Well, if you 01:20:04.779 --> 01:20:06.920 are, and that was part of your family thing, 01:20:07.000 --> 01:20:10.489 of course. this is a lot of programming. 01:20:10.750 --> 01:20:14.619 the question ultimately, can people coexist 01:20:14.619 --> 01:20:18.760 when one side does not view the other side as 01:20:18.760 --> 01:20:22.640 human? What will it take to change that? And 01:20:22.640 --> 01:20:26.079 I want people's hearts to change. I do. Because 01:20:26.079 --> 01:20:28.779 look, Aaron Mate didn't always think the way 01:20:28.779 --> 01:20:34.300 he does. just saying about what he's 01:20:34.300 --> 01:20:36.899 spoken about publicly, and maybe neither did 01:20:36.899 --> 01:20:40.050 Katie. and Max and all those folks who talked 01:20:40.050 --> 01:20:43.789 about that so I want everybody to have that evolution 01:20:43.789 --> 01:20:48.130 but I just don't think it's okay to have that 01:20:48.130 --> 01:20:50.510 evolution while you're committing a genocide 01:20:50.510 --> 01:20:56.449 do your introspection but stop killing everyone 01:20:56.449 --> 01:20:59.729 and let's not forget southern Lebanon it's 01:20:59.729 --> 01:21:03.989 being decimated Ronnie Akalik is talking 01:21:03.989 --> 01:21:07.609 about it daily and that's another voice that 01:21:07.960 --> 01:21:11.539 We need to elevate. But those people have done 01:21:11.539 --> 01:21:15.739 nothing wrong. And Israel is just leveling southern 01:21:15.739 --> 01:21:19.979 Lebanon. And if Hezbollah is such a threat, why 01:21:19.979 --> 01:21:22.140 is Hezbollah not attacking Israel? They're not. 01:21:22.600 --> 01:21:25.340 They're literally not. So what are you doing? 01:21:25.479 --> 01:21:29.699 They're doing now to the West Bank and Jerusalem 01:21:29.699 --> 01:21:33.640 what they did to Gaza. that's their plan. 01:21:33.779 --> 01:21:36.659 It's got to not continue, though. It's just. 01:21:38.079 --> 01:21:41.140 No doubt. I couldn't agree more. Perfect place 01:21:41.140 --> 01:21:46.859 to end. Professor Anthony Zenkus of Columbia 01:21:46.859 --> 01:21:49.520 University and Adelphi University, thanks for 01:21:49.520 --> 01:21:52.039 joining the program. We're here Monday through 01:21:52.039 --> 01:21:55.000 Friday, 9 a.m. Eastern time. Monday, Wednesday, 01:21:55.079 --> 01:21:57.760 Friday, we go two hours to 11. Tuesdays and Thursdays, 01:21:57.760 --> 01:22:01.300 we go until 10. Thanks, everyone, and see you 01:22:01.300 --> 01:22:03.779 later. And if you want to hang out after the 01:22:03.779 --> 01:22:07.380 credits, we'll be able to talk a little bit. 01:22:07.380 --> 01:22:15.739 Thank you. Thank you, Ted. Bye. Yes, you can. 01:22:15.880 --> 01:22:16.460 Hold on a second.