Bản chép lời đầy đủ của Ep.40 When Do You Know It's Time To Walk Away? Taking Career Risks With Iconic TV Presenter Jake Humphrey

like but also like 74 00:03:25.189 --> 00:03:27.509 a nice kick up the ass. That sounds horrible and 75 00:03:27.569 --> 00:03:31.150 also quite dodgy, but like motivation in a nice friendly way. 76 00:03:31.169 --> 00:03:31.849 I don't know. 77 00:03:31.889 --> 00:03:33.150 I just thought that this was some of the best 78 00:03:33.189 --> 00:03:36.169 advice I'd kind of listened to and was just such 79 00:03:36.289 --> 00:03:39.319 a good conversation on the idea of success versus failure 80 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:41.740 and our paths and careers and the speed we should 81 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:44.620 be going at sprints versus, you know, a nice little jog. 82 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:47.539 So I hope you really enjoyed this episode. I think 83 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:49.949 it's a really good one. Personally, I would say that, 84 00:03:49.990 --> 00:03:53.580 you know, it's my podcast. As always, please rate the 85 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:55.520 podcast if you do enjoy it. Please share it with 86 00:03:55.539 --> 00:03:58.199 your friends if you do enjoy it. And if not, 87 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:00.139 just don't let me know because it will hurt me. 88 00:04:00.620 --> 00:04:03.379 I hope you really enjoy this episode. And as always, 89 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:08.590 have a lovely day. Thanks so much for joining me. 90 00:04:08.789 --> 00:04:11.469 To set the scene, would you be able to give 91 00:04:11.530 --> 00:04:14.629 a little whistle-stop tour on the background of who you 92 00:04:14.810 --> 00:04:16.730 are and kind of how you got to where you 93 00:04:16.769 --> 00:04:18.490 are now? But we can drag that bit out a 94 00:04:18.509 --> 00:04:19.269 little bit longer. 95 00:04:19.290 --> 00:04:19.360 Yes. 96 00:04:19.629 --> 00:04:22.139 Okay. It's always hard to know how you got there, right? 97 00:04:22.459 --> 00:04:25.079 That's one of the challenging things. I think a lot 98 00:04:25.100 --> 00:04:27.579 of people will see the amazing stuff that you put 99 00:04:27.660 --> 00:04:30.620 out on Instagram and the incredible story of your businesses 100 00:04:31.660 --> 00:04:33.620 and what they will, I think, maybe come to this 101 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:36.779 podcast for or other podcasts like it is to connect 102 00:04:36.819 --> 00:04:39.240 the dots in advance. One of the hardest things I 103 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:40.819 think is that you're not able to do that. 104 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:41.360 Yeah, sure. 105 00:04:41.620 --> 00:04:43.220 And it's only now when I think of, oh, that 106 00:04:43.259 --> 00:04:45.120 was a really key moment in my career or that 107 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:48.220 was a moment that really had a long lasting impact. 108 00:04:48.730 --> 00:04:50.790 The truth is at the time, I had no idea. 109 00:04:51.589 --> 00:04:54.569 So the learning from that is just be you and 110 00:04:54.589 --> 00:04:58.100 give 100% to everything because you don't know when that 111 00:04:58.149 --> 00:04:59.959 moment's going

to come. So what were the sort of 112 00:05:00.019 --> 00:05:04.319 moments for me? Again, they were totally disguised. I always 113 00:05:04.379 --> 00:05:07.459 try and say this in a way that it comes 114 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:10.519 across right, but I sometimes think that it feels a 115 00:05:10.540 --> 00:05:12.980 bit stupid to say I was the most normal person 116 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:13.759 you could ever imagine. 117 00:05:13.899 --> 00:05:14.160 Mm-hmm. 118 00:05:14.620 --> 00:05:17.420 Because it sounds a bit too self-deprecating although I'm trying 119 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:19.360 to make a point, but what I'm trying to say 120 00:05:19.379 --> 00:05:23.879 is I grew up thinking you had successful people. 30 121 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:26.519 years ago, I'd see your Instagram and go, wow, she's 122 00:05:26.569 --> 00:05:28.910 naturally successful, I'm naturally not. I just thought there was 123 00:05:28.949 --> 00:05:32.050 a secret to high performance that I wasn't exposed to 124 00:05:32.189 --> 00:05:34.009 or I wasn't born into wealth or anything. So I 125 00:05:34.470 --> 00:05:36.310 came from a small village in Norfolk. Dad was a 126 00:05:36.329 --> 00:05:40.889 charity worker. Mum was a teacher. House absolutely full of love. 127 00:05:41.509 --> 00:05:45.670 Probably not a house full of like, die-hard ambition you 128 00:05:45.709 --> 00:05:48.170 know they was like go to school get a degree 129 00:05:48.189 --> 00:05:49.829 if you can go to university and get a job 130 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:52.879 that was the kind of plan really heavy work ethic 131 00:05:52.899 --> 00:05:54.860 I had a paper round really early I carried on 132 00:05:54.899 --> 00:05:56.600 doing it till I was about 16 my mum and 133 00:05:56.620 --> 00:05:58.860 dad were always palming me off to neighbors houses to 134 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:01.980 mow their lawn do their gardening for like two pounds 135 00:06:02.019 --> 00:06:04.860 an hour or whatever the big moment really was I 136 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:07.639 was like super normal didn't do any acting didn't do 137 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:11.069 any stuff at school wasn't any sports teams failed my A-levels. 138 00:06:11.089 --> 00:06:12.689 That was like a really big key moment for me. 139 00:06:12.970 --> 00:06:15.110 And that was around a time of like deep and 140 00:06:15.149 --> 00:06:18.730 intense failure or struggle or negative things happening. So I 141 00:06:19.250 --> 00:06:21.790 worked at McDonald's and I got fired. And I know 142 00:06:21.829 --> 00:06:23.870 now like we can laugh and think fired from McDonald's, 143 00:06:23.889 --> 00:06:26.529 how ridiculous. But when you're 17 and all your mates 144 00:06:26.589 --> 00:06:30.189 work there and they come in because you can like 145 00:06:30.449 --> 00:06:31.750 chat to them while they're buying their food and then 146 00:06:31.769 --> 00:06:33.120 you have to tell them you've been sacked. So that 147 00:06:33.139 --> 00:06:35.160 is deeply embarrassing. Even to go home to your parents 148 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:37.300 at that age and go, I've been fired from a 149 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:41.800 fast food restaurant. Particularly when None of us thought like 150 00:06:42.220 --> 00:06:45.079 that Jake had any sort of special talents or it 151 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:46.680 wasn't like, well, don't worry because you're great at this. 152 00:06:47.180 --> 00:06:49.420 I didn't really have anything. So I got fired from that. 153 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:53.279 I lost my grandma around that time. She committed suicide, 154 00:06:53.379 --> 00:06:56.399 which again is a really difficult thing to cope with 155 00:06:56.439 --> 00:06:58.980 mentally when you're doing your A-levels and you're a teenager 156 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:01.699 because your grandparents, you feel like they've got it sorted. 157 00:07:01.980 --> 00:07:04.730 Like, I mean, I've never experienced that, so I can't. 158 00:07:05.149 --> 00:07:06.879 I can't imagine how tough that would have been. But 159 00:07:06.980 --> 00:07:10.079 I can also imagine conceptually you have this such like 160 00:07:10.660 --> 00:07:13.100 naive approach to life when you're a teenager. Like it's 161 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:15.339 so sweet and naive in the way that you're like, 162 00:07:16.839 --> 00:07:18.819 kind of, of course you'd want to live. And like 163 00:07:18.860 --> 00:07:21.610 that kind of whole approach to thinking about something. So 164 00:07:21.639 --> 00:07:24.170 I can imagine that just being turned on its head 165 00:07:24.589 --> 00:07:29.029 in that moment. Like that's a lot. alongside grief, conceptually, 166 00:07:29.069 --> 00:07:30.709 for a teenager to be able to deal with the 167 00:07:30.750 --> 00:07:33.889 difference between someone wanting to live and someone deciding that 168 00:07:33.910 --> 00:07:35.730 that wasn't what they wanted to do. I can imagine 169 00:07:35.769 --> 00:07:38.470 that just rocking your entire world, grief aside. 170 00:07:38.649 --> 00:07:40.910 You're totally right. Because I think, like, I'd already lost 171 00:07:40.949 --> 00:07:43.970 grandparents before then. There's something very different, though, to your 172 00:07:43.990 --> 00:07:47.089 mum sitting down. And I remember her telling me when, like, 173 00:07:48.149 --> 00:07:50.509 when my grandpa died, for example, he was ill and 174 00:07:50.829 --> 00:07:52.149 he was in his 80s. And I remember them just 175 00:07:52.170 --> 00:07:54.509 sitting down and going, listen, we've got some news. Grandpa's 176 00:07:54.550 --> 00:07:57.430 died in the night. And you kind of go... amazing 177 00:07:57.449 --> 00:08:00.730 guy amazing life sad but this is you know you're 178 00:08:00.750 --> 00:08:03.670 told that that's the circle of life right when you've 179 00:08:03.689 --> 00:08:08.350 got a healthy fun amazing dynamic brilliant grandma who seems 180 00:08:08.430 --> 00:08:10.769 okay then it is very

difficult thing to deal with 181 00:08:10.829 --> 00:08:15.769 and actually i remember it specifically difficult because about three 182 00:08:15.790 --> 00:08:19.009 or four days before i was doing my a level 183 00:08:19.029 --> 00:08:24.189 um revision and she came around And I remember her 184 00:08:24.250 --> 00:08:26.149 walking past my bedroom where I was doing my revision 185 00:08:26.250 --> 00:08:28.410 and she just, she did look really sad. I said, 186 00:08:28.430 --> 00:08:30.250 are you okay? She goes, oh, I don't know. I 187 00:08:30.269 --> 00:08:33.679 don't think I can carry on. And he's just really sad. 188 00:08:34.340 --> 00:08:37.720 And I remember going, oh, you'll be fine, grandma. Carrying 189 00:08:37.820 --> 00:08:40.100 on with my revision. And I'm not saying it would 190 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:43.580 have made the difference if I'd have stopped and gone, whoa, 191 00:08:43.620 --> 00:08:45.759 hold on a minute. But you kind of wish you had. 192 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:50.419 And you do carry that. So that was a moment of, 193 00:08:50.769 --> 00:08:52.990 for sure, where I learned a lot about the world. 194 00:08:53.090 --> 00:08:55.259 And then it wasn't long after that I failed my A-levels. 195 00:08:55.799 --> 00:08:59.659 So again, I had to learn, not through any desire 196 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:01.519 or design, I had to learn to dust myself off. 197 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:04.879 So then really quickly went back to school. The day 198 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:06.159 I went back to school, there was a letter from 199 00:09:06.220 --> 00:09:08.799 a local TV channel looking for politics students to go 200 00:09:08.840 --> 00:09:11.110 and work on a TV show just to offer their 201 00:09:11.129 --> 00:09:14.009 opinions at the weekend. I went there, explained that I'd 202 00:09:14.049 --> 00:09:16.230 failed my A-levels, that I was around and I was available, 203 00:09:16.889 --> 00:09:19.889 worked basically for free, ended up doing bits of presenting. 204 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:21.700 ended up being offered a job. 205 00:09:22.179 --> 00:09:24.340 Was that something that had you previously been in? 206 00:09:24.460 --> 00:09:28.000 No, because that's ambition. And I didn't have any of that. 207 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:29.639 And I think it's just because I was a really 208 00:09:29.700 --> 00:09:32.799 late developer. Like I was physically a late developer, mentally 209 00:09:32.830 --> 00:09:35.389 a late developer. I was just like the kind of 210 00:09:35.509 --> 00:09:37.850 class clown, the kind of average kid at school that 211 00:09:37.870 --> 00:09:40.490 just made people laugh. Not very popular and you know, 212 00:09:40.529 --> 00:09:44.029 nothing special. So I certainly wouldn't have said I'm going 213 00:09:44.049 --> 00:09:46.909 to be a TV presenter. Also like Grace, I'm from 214 00:09:46.950 --> 00:09:49.309 a small village in Norfolk. Like, People like me just 215 00:09:49.350 --> 00:09:52.190 don't be

TV presenters. That's how it felt at the time. 216 00:09:52.850 --> 00:09:57.639 But then I got offered a job, £ 6, 472 a year, 217 00:09:57.799 --> 00:10:00.740 if I remember correctly, was my starting salary. And then 218 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:02.580 one day I was at work and the phone rang 219 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:04.799 and it was a guy from the BBC and he said, 220 00:10:04.840 --> 00:10:06.259 is that Jake Humphrey? I said, yeah. And he said, 221 00:10:06.299 --> 00:10:08.830 I saw some of your TV show that you were 222 00:10:08.850 --> 00:10:11.289 working on this weekend. You're a shining star in a 223 00:10:11.370 --> 00:10:15.919 sea of shit. Which I kind of thought... What a review. 224 00:10:15.980 --> 00:10:17.259 Yeah. Yeah, go on. 225 00:10:17.299 --> 00:10:18.879 As long as I was the shining star, not the 226 00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:22.299 sea of shit, then I'm happy. And he invited me 227 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:24.419 down to London and I had a few meetings. They 228 00:10:24.460 --> 00:10:27.610 then launched the CBBC channel. I started on that as 229 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:31.450 a CBBC presenter. Like, couldn't believe it had this actually happened. 230 00:10:31.490 --> 00:10:35.190 I was a kids TV presenter. Amazing time there. The 231 00:10:35.210 --> 00:10:37.710 BBC then won the rights to Formula One, paid millions 232 00:10:37.730 --> 00:10:39.889 of pounds for them. And there was this feeling that 233 00:10:39.909 --> 00:10:42.009 they had to try and make their sports coverage a 234 00:10:42.009 --> 00:10:42.909 bit younger, a bit fresher. 235 00:10:42.950 --> 00:10:43.049 Yeah. 236 00:10:43.990 --> 00:10:47.389 I took that job. I got offered that job, accepted. 237 00:10:46.990 --> 00:10:47.529 It, obviously. 238 00:10:47.549 --> 00:10:47.830 Incredible. 239 00:10:47.870 --> 00:10:49.980 Sorry, how old were you at this stage? 240 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:52.620 By now, so I was like the A-level failure, two 241 00:10:52.659 --> 00:10:54.200 or three years in telly. So I was then in 242 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:57.340 my early 20s. I was eight years at CBBC. So 243 00:10:57.379 --> 00:11:00.179 now I'm like 29, probably. So it was quite young 244 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:01.110 to get that Formula One job. 245 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:02.080 Yeah, no, that's incredible. 246 00:11:02.100 --> 00:11:04.549 I did that for four years. And then we can 247 00:11:04.570 --> 00:11:06.210 talk about this in more detail, but walked away from 248 00:11:06.250 --> 00:11:10.620 the B, joined BT Sport. And then... I'm now sitting 249 00:11:10.649 --> 00:11:13.539 here with you. In the meantime, I started a production 250 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:16.500 company called The Whisper Group, which has now got about 251 00:11:16.500 --> 00:11:19.860 300 staff. It's pretty successful, based in West London. I've 252 00:11:19.899 --> 00:11:22.200 got a podcast called High Performance, a couple of kids, 253 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:25.100 an amazing wife.

I live back in Norfolk where it 254 00:11:25.139 --> 00:11:28.179 all started. Sometimes it's really nice just to stop and 255 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:30.320 look back on all that because you just don't do that, 256 00:11:30.379 --> 00:11:30.620 you know? 257 00:11:31.500 --> 00:11:32.799 I think one of the, as you were kind of 258 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:35.919 saying earlier, one of the reasons we listen to podcasts 259 00:11:35.940 --> 00:11:38.779 is because we try and learn from people's mistakes or 260 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:41.879 failures before we've made them ourselves and obviously there's only 261 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:43.580 an element of that that you can do like you're 262 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:45.259 going to make the mistakes you're going to make but 263 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:47.330 it feels like your story is so one of those 264 00:11:47.389 --> 00:11:50.190 that like of course there's serendipity in there but it's 265 00:11:50.250 --> 00:11:52.830 also like it feels like it had to happen that 266 00:11:52.870 --> 00:11:55.909 way like it almost feels like you and I would 267 00:11:56.429 --> 00:11:58.750 like in terms of like the you know being fired 268 00:11:58.789 --> 00:12:01.360 from McDonald's or like the A-levels or any of those 269 00:12:01.419 --> 00:12:04.620 things it's like in order to grow your sense of 270 00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:06.519 self to be at the point that you would be 271 00:12:08.110 --> 00:12:10.549 you know, just applying for that presenter role rather than 272 00:12:10.610 --> 00:12:13.629 from a point of ambition, actually from a point of 273 00:12:14.429 --> 00:12:16.289 kind of, well, what else am I going to do? 274 00:12:16.309 --> 00:12:18.529 This has just come through my door. I think is 275 00:12:18.570 --> 00:12:20.480 so important to look at because we kind of lots 276 00:12:20.509 --> 00:12:22.840 of the time see things always having to have risen 277 00:12:22.940 --> 00:12:25.919 from ambition at that stage and actually like trusting the 278 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:28.940 process and trusting the like direction of your life in 279 00:12:28.980 --> 00:12:30.360 terms of like what way you're going to go. I 280 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:31.919 do think it's incredibly important. 281 00:12:32.340 --> 00:12:34.460 And I think it's hard at the moment to trust 282 00:12:34.620 --> 00:12:38.429 the direction because like, I'm a lot older than you. 283 00:12:38.509 --> 00:12:41.090 I'm in my forties, right? So when I was growing up, 284 00:12:41.429 --> 00:12:45.409 thankfully there was no social media. There was no showing off. 285 00:12:45.649 --> 00:12:48.110 There was no way of knowing what everyone else was 286 00:12:48.149 --> 00:12:50.769 doing because all it would have done is make me 287 00:12:50.809 --> 00:12:53.360 feel even worse and even more inferior. And that's the 288 00:12:53.379 --> 00:12:55.620 real challenge I think for people now is that everywhere 289 00:12:55.629 --> 00:12:58.980 you look, you're shown perfection. Now, what I want people 290 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:02.720 to understand is that that perfection didn't come for free, right? 291 00:13:03.019 --> 00:13:06.480 You and your businesses haven't come for free. What I've 292 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:09.370 done hasn't come for free and I think now we 293 00:13:09.409 --> 00:13:11.450 live in a world where people I get people not 294 00:13:11.509 --> 00:13:14.570 saying to me how should I start out in television 295 00:13:14.629 --> 00:13:17.129 they say how can I get a job presenting the 296 00:13:17.149 --> 00:13:19.769 Champions League or how can I be a Formula One 297 00:13:19.789 --> 00:13:21.610 presenter or how can I present match of the day 298 00:13:21.649 --> 00:13:23.409 and it's like well you have to do the work 299 00:13:24.009 --> 00:13:25.809 and actually the truth is a lot of the work 300 00:13:26.029 --> 00:13:28.870 is in just the being in the doing the failing 301 00:13:28.929 --> 00:13:32.169 the trying again and I know that there's a slight 302 00:13:32.210 --> 00:13:35.590 element of well you've been through it and you've failed 303 00:13:35.649 --> 00:13:37.230 and you've learned all these things. Why don't you just 304 00:13:37.289 --> 00:13:37.629 tell me? 305 00:13:37.990 --> 00:13:38.190 Yeah. 306 00:13:38.210 --> 00:13:39.230 That's kind of not enough. 307 00:13:39.490 --> 00:13:39.730 Yeah. 308 00:13:40.090 --> 00:13:42.649 No, but also you, like the actual experience in order 309 00:13:42.690 --> 00:13:44.669 to make you the person you were when you took 310 00:13:44.690 --> 00:13:48.480 that Formula One job, if that opportunity had been there 311 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:50.919 nine years earlier or eight years earlier or whenever it 312 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:53.559 is that you kind of got your first proper presenting job, 313 00:13:54.019 --> 00:13:56.529 you wouldn't have been in the right place to take it. 314 00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:57.960 Like you wouldn't have been experienced enough. 315 00:13:57.980 --> 00:14:00.960 All my mistakes came on this tiny channel. It's called 316 00:14:01.019 --> 00:14:01.899 Rapture Television. 317 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:02.070 Mm. 318 00:14:02.570 --> 00:14:04.269 All my mistakes came there and then they came on 319 00:14:04.350 --> 00:14:06.950 Children's BBC. So I talk about it as being like 320 00:14:06.970 --> 00:14:09.549 a pilot getting your wings. What people need to do 321 00:14:09.620 --> 00:14:11.659 is realise you need to get your wings for life. 322 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:14.320 You need to do all of that stuff, which can 323 00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:18.639 be sometimes frustrating. I remember when I really wanted to 324 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:21.139 be a sports presenter. I'd been maybe five years on 325 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:23.379 Children's BBC. I wanted to be a sports presenter. I 326 00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:26.059 went for a meeting and explained this to them. And 327

00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:28.830 I thought it would be funny to say I failed 328 00:14:28.850 --> 00:14:31.629 my A-levels and I got fired from McDonald's. And the 329 00:14:31.669 --> 00:14:34.700 person that I met with, they were responsible for finding 330 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:38.399 new presenters for BBC Sport. And they said, BBC Sport 331 00:14:38.700 --> 00:14:42.639 doesn't employ people like you. In other words, you haven't 332 00:14:42.659 --> 00:14:45.600 got a degree. You haven't, you're not a trained journalist. 333 00:14:45.659 --> 00:14:48.600 You haven't played football or rugby or cricket to an 334 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:51.740 elite level. You're not what we're looking for. And I 335 00:14:51.820 --> 00:14:54.759 think that that was actually a really brilliant message for 336 00:14:54.779 --> 00:14:56.600 me because it meant that I had to find another way. Now, 337 00:14:57.139 --> 00:14:59.340 if that had happened to me, and I hadn't done 338 00:14:59.379 --> 00:15:01.360 the years on Children's BBC, and I hadn't had the 339 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:05.139 A-level failure, and I hadn't had those setbacks from McDonald's 340 00:15:05.230 --> 00:15:06.970 and having to deal with grief in the way that 341 00:15:06.990 --> 00:15:09.210 I had, I think that that would have just derailed me. 342 00:15:09.549 --> 00:15:11.450 But instead, it just energized me. And I thought, fine, 343 00:15:11.870 --> 00:15:15.309 I will absolutely show you what I should be doing. 344 00:15:15.610 --> 00:15:18.700 And I actually ended up getting an ISDN kit, which 345 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:21.259 is the old way of sort of broadcasting from matches. 346 00:15:21.940 --> 00:15:23.840 And I used to earn like £ 100 on a Saturday 347 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:26.539 to go and report for the radio, for BBC Radio. 348 00:15:27.250 --> 00:15:28.769 And I was on CBBC at the time where I 349 00:15:28.809 --> 00:15:30.590 thought my career had taken me to a certain point. 350 00:15:31.230 --> 00:15:34.289 And it was going right back to the beginning and saying, fine, 351 00:15:34.309 --> 00:15:36.789 let me show you. So I think that's the other 352 00:15:36.850 --> 00:15:39.950 important takeaway is that like the work doesn't stop. You know, 353 00:15:40.009 --> 00:15:43.269 you have had an amazing career, right? The truth is, 354 00:15:43.950 --> 00:15:46.269 if you wanted to go and totally pivot in another direction, 355 00:15:46.330 --> 00:15:48.269 you'd have to be humble enough to go, well, let 356 00:15:48.309 --> 00:15:49.090 me start at the beginning. 357 00:15:49.429 --> 00:15:50.029 A hundred percent. 358 00:15:50.049 --> 00:15:50.830 Show you where it works. 359 00:15:50.909 --> 00:15:51.490 Yeah. 360 00:15:52.049 --> 00:15:54.210 And I think one of the important messages there as 361 00:15:54.230 --> 00:15:57.220 well is like, I do think social media has positioned 362 00:15:57.259 --> 00:16:01.480 us in a way where we want so much instant gratification. 363 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:03.090 And I'll be the first person to say that because 364 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:06.149 I think you can see by the speed of my career, 365 00:16:06.230 --> 00:16:09.690 I'm very much a, I want something and I want 366 00:16:09.750 --> 00:16:14.529 it now. I don't say that in a derogatory sense. 367 00:16:14.590 --> 00:16:16.629 I'm very determined and I'll make something happen and I'm 368 00:16:16.669 --> 00:16:19.820 very spurred. I'm quite impulsive in the way that like, 369 00:16:19.860 --> 00:16:21.919 I'll decide to do something and then spend three days 370 00:16:21.980 --> 00:16:24.090 making it happen or, you know, like back to back 371 00:16:24.139 --> 00:16:26.149 and through the night and all of this. But I 372 00:16:26.230 --> 00:16:29.250 also think that like, what's really important when you look 373 00:16:29.269 --> 00:16:31.970 at that is it's like, sure you can do that, 374 00:16:32.009 --> 00:16:36.149 but like, remember careers are long and you're also by 375 00:16:36.230 --> 00:16:39.240 wanting some things like the chapter 20 now, rather than 376 00:16:39.259 --> 00:16:41.820 the chapter one, you're probably not giving yourself like a 377 00:16:41.860 --> 00:16:43.919 great backing to be able to get there. Like if 378 00:16:44.019 --> 00:16:48.240 I went back and did it again, I would 100% 379 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:51.120 get more formal experience in what I then wanted to do. 380 00:16:51.539 --> 00:16:53.179 But at the time, I wanted to make a lot 381 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:54.559 of money, I wanted to do well, I wanted to 382 00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:56.600 grow on social media, and so what I did was 383 00:16:56.620 --> 00:16:59.769 do anything to make that happen. But actually, realistically, I 384 00:17:00.230 --> 00:17:02.389 think if I'd been able to be a little more, 385 00:17:02.409 --> 00:17:05.069 a little slower, a little less impulsive, and a little 386 00:17:05.109 --> 00:17:08.589 more about building the foundations... I would have felt a 387 00:17:08.660 --> 00:17:10.990 lot more confident to be able to grow in the 388 00:17:11.029 --> 00:17:12.829 direction I needed to grow in. Like I think I 389 00:17:12.849 --> 00:17:15.390 could have learned so much from working in private equity 390 00:17:15.450 --> 00:17:17.809 or from working in a startup or from, you know, 391 00:17:17.910 --> 00:17:19.710 going to the production side of fashion or whatever it 392 00:17:19.730 --> 00:17:23.119 might be. And I do think that there's this like, 393 00:17:23.940 --> 00:17:27.799 because we want this instant gratification, it's often against our 394 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:30.759 best interests. And of course I can say that now 395 00:17:30.779 --> 00:17:31.819 because I'm sitting in the position I'm in. 396 00:17:31.819 --> 00:17:32.619 But it's worked out well for you though. 397 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:35.220 Yeah, of course it has. But I also think that like, 398 00:17:36.259 --> 00:17:38.480

There are also times now where I'm kind of very 399 00:17:38.539 --> 00:17:42.380 much like, I rushed into the, like, you know, not 400 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:44.230 everything at all. Like I love the position I'm in. 401 00:17:44.289 --> 00:17:47.049 I think I'm in a very powerful position with like Tala, 402 00:17:47.069 --> 00:17:49.130 for example, in the way that I'm their target customer. 403 00:17:49.150 --> 00:17:50.750 So yeah, sure. I am probably the best person to 404 00:17:50.789 --> 00:17:52.490 be sitting in that room and being like, no, we 405 00:17:52.529 --> 00:17:54.910 want that on the leggings. But ultimately when it comes 406 00:17:54.950 --> 00:17:57.099 to some of the other things, I think I rushed 407 00:17:57.140 --> 00:17:59.980 it a lot because I wanted it to look like 408 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.660 the finished product before it was there. This kind of 409 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:05.299 fake it till you make it thing. And only now 410 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:06.960 I'm able to kind of like sit here and say 411 00:18:07.019 --> 00:18:10.019 those things because it worked out. Whereas like I could 412 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:11.869 have been sitting here and saying those things were like 413 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:14.930 something had gone bankrupt or like the idea hadn't worked 414 00:18:15.009 --> 00:18:16.829 or I didn't what I was terrible at running a 415 00:18:16.869 --> 00:18:19.089 company and terrible at managing people or whatever it might 416 00:18:19.130 --> 00:18:23.650 have been. But I think that kind of like the mistakes, 417 00:18:23.710 --> 00:18:26.180 the failures, but also just the experience as a whole 418 00:18:26.299 --> 00:18:29.980 is like so important to have in your like toolbox 419 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:33.319 of like things that you could use to then confront 420 00:18:33.339 --> 00:18:35.740 the issues that you come and you know and I 421 00:18:35.779 --> 00:18:38.759 would say mine in particular having had like a I'd 422 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:41.819 say eight year career now would be like the grand 423 00:18:41.859 --> 00:18:45.569 total of it is like almost every problem I come 424 00:18:45.609 --> 00:18:48.890 across is like a very new problem that I haven't 425 00:18:48.910 --> 00:18:51.730 had lower risk experience of if that makes sense. 426 00:18:51.609 --> 00:18:55.430 But you're also a great advocate for the fact there's 427 00:18:55.470 --> 00:18:57.930 more than one way to do something I mean I 428 00:18:58.970 --> 00:19:03.539 I would say that I've had a great career but 429 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:06.470 quite a slow career So I got into telly at 18. 430 00:19:06.450 --> 00:19:08.269 I'm still in telly at 44 and I've still got 431 00:19:08.309 --> 00:19:11.710 loads of things I want to do. The production company, Whisper, 432 00:19:11.769 --> 00:19:15.589 that I've got has grown organically. We've never taken any funding. 433 00:19:15.609 --> 00:19:18.769 We've never had any debt. I'm really proud with where 434 00:19:18.829 --> 00:19:21.029 it is. I love the fact that it just grew 435 00:19:21.130 --> 00:19:23.789 slowly and it kind of grew organically. There was no 436 00:19:23.829 --> 00:19:28.650 grand plan. And I love that. Even my podcast, you know, 437 00:19:29.069 --> 00:19:30.890 for the first year, it was just a kind of 438 00:19:30.910 --> 00:19:33.190 almost like a side hobby and high performance is sort 439 00:19:33.210 --> 00:19:35.519 of slowly growing. become more of that and then I 440 00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:40.329 see like amazing new podcasts now that are doing now 441 00:19:40.589 --> 00:19:43.329 what we've spent three years building up to do but 442 00:19:43.349 --> 00:19:45.109 I'm kind of okay with that because I think that 443 00:19:46.089 --> 00:19:48.430 it's really brilliant for people to see people like me 444 00:19:48.490 --> 00:19:51.319 that actually maybe need to take it slow, but also 445 00:19:51.380 --> 00:19:54.700 see people like you, your calling card, what your USP is, 446 00:19:54.740 --> 00:19:59.450 what your unique ability is, is like your conviction of 447 00:20:00.710 --> 00:20:04.109 your decision-making and your energy. And actually that's brilliant because 448 00:20:04.829 --> 00:20:07.450 we can all be really sure in our decision making 449 00:20:07.490 --> 00:20:09.029 even if we've got loads of doubts under the surface 450 00:20:09.049 --> 00:20:10.769 we can still go i'm going to decide this right 451 00:20:10.930 --> 00:20:13.170 that's the first thing the second thing is as long 452 00:20:13.190 --> 00:20:14.369 as we get enough sleep we should all have the 453 00:20:14.410 --> 00:20:17.009 energy yeah so i think you are massively inspirational for 454 00:20:17.029 --> 00:20:19.450 people in that yeah i could do with the way 455 00:20:19.490 --> 00:20:21.210 that jake's done it and kind of try and find 456 00:20:21.250 --> 00:20:23.109 my path and try and work it out as i 457 00:20:23.150 --> 00:20:26.630 go or i could just literally be grace and go 458 00:20:27.150 --> 00:20:29.470 this is what i'm going to do because actually i 459 00:20:30.589 --> 00:20:32.009 know it's easy to go you might not work out 460 00:20:32.049 --> 00:20:35.799 well both way of operating may well not work out. 461 00:20:35.819 --> 00:20:39.000 There is no answer here. It's just kind of don't 462 00:20:39.059 --> 00:20:42.309 overthink it. If you're an energy bunny, be super energetic. 463 00:20:42.849 --> 00:20:44.910 If you're a cautious, careful, slow, I need all the 464 00:20:44.950 --> 00:20:48.769 answers before I make a potentially dangerous decision, then be that. 465 00:20:48.869 --> 00:20:51.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. No, I think that's incredibly important. 466 00:20:51.779 --> 00:20:51.980 Yeah. 467 00:20:52.309 --> 00:20:55.349 Like a really, really important differentiation there. And I think realistically, 468 00:20:55.490 --> 00:20:57.150 I never would have not done it

the way I 469 00:20:57.170 --> 00:20:58.450 did it because that's who I am. 470 00:20:58.470 --> 00:20:59.329 And that's how I do things. And I bet you 471 00:20:59.349 --> 00:21:01.349 still do it today, right? You still go hell for 472 00:21:01.369 --> 00:21:02.130 leather all the time, right? 473 00:21:02.210 --> 00:21:04.130 Oh my God. Like, as in like, I know what's 474 00:21:04.150 --> 00:21:05.529 good for me and I know what's bad for me. 475 00:21:05.589 --> 00:21:08.670 And yet you will see me like, like I'll have 476 00:21:08.710 --> 00:21:11.299 an idea at, you know, 3am and I'll make it 477 00:21:11.339 --> 00:21:14.460 happen by the next day. And like all wheels will 478 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:16.220 be in motion and all of this. And like, it is. 479 00:21:16.220 --> 00:21:18.200 But that's not for everyone. No, of course. And I 480 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:20.259 think the danger is these days, everyone wants to tell 481 00:21:20.299 --> 00:21:23.180 everyone that their way of doing it Is the right way, 482 00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:24.680 that survivorship bias thing. 483 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:27.259 I think what I don't want to happen is by 484 00:21:27.380 --> 00:21:29.579 me having the platform that I have, that being the 485 00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:31.759 only acceptable way to make that happen, which I think 486 00:21:31.819 --> 00:21:34.720 is what I'm trying to say by that differentiation. I 487 00:21:34.779 --> 00:21:36.980 also think that like being careful when you are the 488 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:40.119 type of person that I am, being careful in the 489 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:43.180 way that time's not going to change based on the 490 00:21:43.220 --> 00:21:45.930 fact that you've got to success quicker. You're still then 491 00:21:45.970 --> 00:21:48.230 going to have that. If you burn yourself out, you're 492 00:21:48.250 --> 00:21:50.049 going to burn yourself out and you're going to take 493 00:21:50.089 --> 00:21:51.930 a long time to be able to get out of 494 00:21:51.970 --> 00:21:55.410 that if ever. And I feel like knowing where your 495 00:21:55.430 --> 00:21:58.250 downfalls in that way are very, very important. Because personally, 496 00:21:58.289 --> 00:22:00.329 I would say that I go far too fast and 497 00:22:00.349 --> 00:22:03.410 I do burn myself out to like, you know, and 498 00:22:03.450 --> 00:22:05.519 it's not, it's not good for me. And I think 499 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:07.599 that like, that's all well and good. Me saying that 500 00:22:07.619 --> 00:22:10.240 sitting here and being like, you know, whatever position I'm 501 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:11.680 in and then being able to be like, but don't 502 00:22:11.740 --> 00:22:14.519 burn yourself out. Like, you know, of course I can 503 00:22:14.539 --> 00:22:17.480 say that, but I do think it is also important to, 504 00:22:17.900 --> 00:22:21.190 you know, that's, it's not, It's definitely not always a strength. 505 00:22:21.329 --> 00:22:24.569 And

I think just seeing the fruits of that success 506 00:22:25.089 --> 00:22:28.369 on social media, on my platforms or whatever, without caveating 507 00:22:28.430 --> 00:22:30.750 it with that and being like, you know, I don't 508 00:22:30.789 --> 00:22:32.529 really have balance. There's like a lot of, you know, 509 00:22:32.589 --> 00:22:33.950 all of those things I think is important. 510 00:22:34.609 --> 00:22:42.109 What the world doesn't need is another dynamic, entrepreneurial, successful, wealthy, 511 00:22:42.539 --> 00:22:46.079 awesome young man or young woman. making everyone else feel 512 00:22:46.099 --> 00:22:48.339 like they're not doing enough. Sure. That's like the worst 513 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:51.740 conversation that we can have on my podcast, on your podcast, 514 00:22:51.779 --> 00:22:56.269 on any platform. What there isn't enough of is people 515 00:22:56.710 --> 00:23:00.470 in other people's lives saying, just take your time, just 516 00:23:00.529 --> 00:23:02.349 enjoy it. You know, you're going to be on the 517 00:23:02.410 --> 00:23:04.549 earth for 70 years, right? You don't need to achieve 518 00:23:04.569 --> 00:23:07.670 everything in the first 21. That's the risk. That's the danger. 519 00:23:07.809 --> 00:23:09.900 And you know, you're great at being honest and saying, well, 520 00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:12.200 it leaves me feeling burnt out. It leaves me feeling 521 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.279 anxious and stressed. I sometimes don't feel I've got the 522 00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:18.200 toolkit because I haven't lived those experiences. It's a very 523 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:22.150 interesting conversation because I do think we laud the young, 524 00:23:22.430 --> 00:23:23.869 early successful entrepreneur. 525 00:23:23.910 --> 00:23:26.230 Oh my God, 100%. And also like, I think that we, 526 00:23:27.210 --> 00:23:29.809 it's the same with like the kind of girl boss 527 00:23:30.190 --> 00:23:33.230 kind of rhetoric and like all of the, you know, 528 00:23:33.730 --> 00:23:36.289 we love to see success stories that are against the 529 00:23:36.329 --> 00:23:38.750 norm because to us it makes us, you know, we're 530 00:23:38.809 --> 00:23:42.630 able to celebrate it more. So, you know, young successful woman. 531 00:23:42.670 --> 00:23:45.369 So like, like whatever it might be, it's easier to 532 00:23:45.430 --> 00:23:49.750 celebrate that and almost not glorify it too much. Cause 533 00:23:49.769 --> 00:23:51.589 I don't think the concept can be glorified too much, 534 00:23:51.630 --> 00:23:55.490 but in terms of like giving that qualities that it 535 00:23:55.549 --> 00:23:58.470 doesn't actually have in terms or like taking away the 536 00:23:58.509 --> 00:24:01.170 fact that there would be any negatives there just to 537 00:24:01.210 --> 00:24:03.900 celebrate that kind of specific thing, which is why I 538 00:24:03.910 --> 00:24:05.579 think it's important to kind of be able to talk 539 00:24:05.619 --> 00:24:08.349 about the Not so great parts. 540 00:24:08.390 --> 00:24:08.589 Yeah. 541 00:24:08.750 --> 00:24:11.150 Not from a kind of like self-flagellating, like being like, oh, 542 00:24:11.170 --> 00:24:13.230 but you know, life is really hard. It's not like, 543 00:24:13.289 --> 00:24:15.650 it's not that. It's just actually being like, you know, 544 00:24:16.750 --> 00:24:19.150 there's always going to be the flip side. I want 545 00:24:19.170 --> 00:24:22.450 to talk about your starting up of the production company. 546 00:24:22.470 --> 00:24:22.549 Yeah. 547 00:24:22.569 --> 00:24:24.450 Because to get a company to a point where it's 548 00:24:24.509 --> 00:24:29.930 got 300 team members is absolutely unbelievable. When did you 549 00:24:30.390 --> 00:24:33.500 start that and what was the kind of idea for that? 550 00:24:34.599 --> 00:24:35.500 I love talking about this. 551 00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:35.880 Mm-hmm. 552 00:24:36.190 --> 00:24:41.740 Because I do believe that entrepreneurial people just, they, the 553 00:24:41.779 --> 00:24:43.240 one thing I will be really clear about is I 554 00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:45.779 think that they are risk takers. They are gamblers. They are, 555 00:24:46.539 --> 00:24:50.099 you know, they're constantly buying a lottery ticket. They're constantly 556 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:52.980 making a bet. Now there's a chance and you would 557 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:55.539 have been through many bets and chances in your life 558 00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:56.279 that haven't paid off. 559 00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:56.559 Right. 560 00:24:57.079 --> 00:24:58.960 It's the one that does pay off. That is the 561 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:02.029 one that you, that, everyone at Lawton is excited about. 562 00:25:02.109 --> 00:25:05.250 But you mustn't stop taking these risks just because you've 563 00:25:05.269 --> 00:25:07.970 had a few that don't pay off. So I was 564 00:25:08.009 --> 00:25:12.650 working in Formula One between 2009 and 2012. And the 565 00:25:12.990 --> 00:25:15.730 BBC moved the sports department to Manchester. And I was 566 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:19.059 working with this amazing guy called Sunil Patel, who is 567 00:25:19.099 --> 00:25:22.140 still the CEO of Whisper today. And he's one of 568 00:25:22.180 --> 00:25:24.720 those rare people where I'd work with great creatives and 569 00:25:24.740 --> 00:25:27.559 I'd work with people who are brilliant organizers. I'd never 570 00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:31.180 worked with someone who was hugely creative, massive ideas, but 571 00:25:31.220 --> 00:25:33.680 then got it done, just believed they could get it done. 572 00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:36.529 And Sonal was that guy. So he said he didn't 573 00:25:36.549 --> 00:25:39.170 really fancy going to Manchester because BBC Sport was moving 574 00:25:39.210 --> 00:25:41.630 from London to Manchester at the time. And with this 575 00:25:41.730 --> 00:25:43.549 idea of buying a lottery ticket or being a bit 576

00:25:43.569 --> 00:25:45.690 of a gambler, I said, well, let's just set up 577 00:25:45.710 --> 00:25:48.930 a production company. Now, I didn't really have a grand 578 00:25:49.009 --> 00:25:51.809 plan for that. And again, don't think you need to 579 00:25:52.549 --> 00:25:54.170 put all the dots in place before you make that 580 00:25:54.230 --> 00:25:56.839 first decision. Just make the first decision for what it is. 581 00:25:57.500 --> 00:25:59.420 We didn't know we were going to be going 10 582 00:25:59.420 --> 00:26:01.819 years later, turning over... you know, probably close to a 583 00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:04.809 hundred million dollars this year. That wasn't the plan. The 584 00:26:04.829 --> 00:26:06.950 plan was just, let's just set up a production company. 585 00:26:07.450 --> 00:26:10.950 So the two of us got together without even the 586 00:26:10.990 --> 00:26:12.750 name of a business. And we were lucky enough that 587 00:26:12.789 --> 00:26:15.650 we knew obviously loads of the teams in Formula One. 588 00:26:15.690 --> 00:26:17.730 So we went to meet with the Williams Formula One 589 00:26:17.750 --> 00:26:19.930 team and we said to them, look, you love the 590 00:26:19.970 --> 00:26:21.950 coverage on the BBC. It was winning lots of awards 591 00:26:21.970 --> 00:26:24.559 at the time. The viewing figures were really high. We said, 592 00:26:24.660 --> 00:26:27.430 Sonal is one of the brains behind the coverage. We 593 00:26:27.450 --> 00:26:29.529 would love to produce your content. And we will basically 594 00:26:29.589 --> 00:26:33.430 produce BBC level quality. We'll do it cheaper than you've 595 00:26:33.450 --> 00:26:36.460 already been paying people anyway. Because there was a lot 596 00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:37.859 of people in that space at the time that were 597 00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:42.079 just overcharging. They weren't, you know, we didn't think giving 598 00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:43.880 fair quotes for the work. So we said, we will 599 00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:46.269 just be totally honest. We'll charge you what it costs 600 00:26:46.309 --> 00:26:48.910 plus 10% to cover our overheads. And that's what we'll do. 601 00:26:49.589 --> 00:26:51.450 And Williams took a chance on us. They said, okay, 602 00:26:51.490 --> 00:26:53.829 why don't you produce our content for the season? The 603 00:26:53.849 --> 00:26:56.440 two of us couldn't believe it. remember leaving their factory 604 00:26:56.700 --> 00:26:59.430 we pulled up in a lay-by next to their factory 605 00:26:59.529 --> 00:27:02.210 and got out and started dancing and then we were 606 00:27:02.230 --> 00:27:03.670 like this looks really bad if one of them comes 607 00:27:03.769 --> 00:27:05.650 out of the office and sees us dancing in a 608 00:27:05.670 --> 00:27:08.849 lay-by so then we started driving back and we were 609 00:27:08.869 --> 00:27:10.609 like we don't even have a name for the company 610 00:27:10.630 --> 00:27:13.170 we don't have an office we literally had nothing and 611 00:27:13.210 --> 00:27:15.309 he'd just been on a lad's holiday to a and 612 00:27:15.450 --> 00:27:17.009 been drinking a bar called whisper and he had the 613 00:27:17.069 --> 00:27:18.569 business card in his pocket and he said well let's 614 00:27:18.589 --> 00:27:21.210 just call it whisper and that was it that was 615 00:27:21.230 --> 00:27:21.890 the beginning. 616 00:27:21.859 --> 00:27:24.359 And just for clarification for people who might not have 617 00:27:24.700 --> 00:27:27.930 background on like production companies, for example, was the aim 618 00:27:28.029 --> 00:27:31.890 to create their content for their organic platforms or was 619 00:27:31.950 --> 00:27:33.529 it to be able to create the content to then 620 00:27:33.609 --> 00:27:35.329 sell to say like a channel or something? 621 00:27:35.349 --> 00:27:39.720 So let's remember we're talking about 2010, 2011. So online 622 00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:42.299 social media content was nothing like it is now. Like 623 00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:44.240 Twitter was kind of getting going, but it was pretty 624 00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:47.440 much just updates. Like even photos were a tricky thing 625 00:27:47.990 --> 00:27:49.799 to put up. So what it was really, it was 626 00:27:50.180 --> 00:27:52.480 to produce content for them on behalf of their sponsors, 627 00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:55.059 which could then be given to TV channels, used in 628 00:27:55.119 --> 00:28:00.039 their marketing material, used in their motorhome, just assets basically. 629 00:28:01.700 --> 00:28:04.160 And that's how it all started. My wife worked on 630 00:28:04.180 --> 00:28:06.819 Strictly Come Dancing. She was a production manager. So she 631 00:28:06.859 --> 00:28:09.720 left her job to work on the business. She worked 632 00:28:09.769 --> 00:28:12.430 out of our back office. Sonal worked out of his 633 00:28:12.509 --> 00:28:15.829 study in his house. And it's a big risk for her. 634 00:28:15.849 --> 00:28:16.509 She left her job. 635 00:28:16.529 --> 00:28:18.009 Was she your wife at the time? 636 00:28:18.269 --> 00:28:19.130 She was my wife at the time. 637 00:28:19.809 --> 00:28:23.289 Seems like less of a risk when there's the... Definitely 638 00:28:23.410 --> 00:28:25.029 less of a risk for her. Oh, my boyfriend's starting 639 00:28:25.049 --> 00:28:27.809 this production company and I'm going to quit my job. 640 00:28:27.829 --> 00:28:29.450 It's definitely less of a risk for her. 641 00:28:29.470 --> 00:28:32.269 No, no, no, that wasn't to belittle the fact that 642 00:28:32.289 --> 00:28:33.109 it was obviously. 643 00:28:32.819 --> 00:28:33.579 Still a significant risk. 644 00:28:33.650 --> 00:28:35.160 It was the fact she was walking away from her 645 00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.140 dream job which was working on Strictly Come Dancing. And 646 00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:40.119 I'm like, can you walk away from Strictly just to 647 00:28:40.180 --> 00:28:43.180 work on some

slightly random Formula One content? 648 00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:46.019 Also for both of your risk as a family or 649 00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:49.809 a unit at that time to be completely undiversified. 650 00:28:48.930 --> 00:28:50.950 Totally totally we were we were all in at that 651 00:28:50.990 --> 00:28:54.490 point into this into this plan and what we actually 652 00:28:54.549 --> 00:28:57.130 found because you I think one of the great things 653 00:28:57.390 --> 00:28:59.440 about you know we've talked about doing things when you're 654 00:28:59.460 --> 00:29:01.059 young one of the great things about naivety and that 655 00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:02.759 would have been one of your superpowers for sure when 656 00:29:02.779 --> 00:29:05.720 you first started out was you just thought every meeting 657 00:29:05.740 --> 00:29:07.420 was going to be amazing every opportunity was going to 658 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:09.940 work it was all going to be fantastic because that's 659 00:29:10.009 --> 00:29:14.009 how wonderful being naive is be naive it's okay don't 660 00:29:14.170 --> 00:29:17.640 fully educate yourself And we were naive, totally naive to 661 00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:20.410 think that we would meet one person, get some work 662 00:29:20.450 --> 00:29:23.490 and then others and others. The reality was you win 663 00:29:23.509 --> 00:29:25.609 that first contract, you put all your effort into making 664 00:29:25.630 --> 00:29:28.049 that content. So you haven't got time to find the 665 00:29:28.109 --> 00:29:31.069 next bit of work. So eventually we were like, we 666 00:29:31.130 --> 00:29:37.609 need more help with pitching, meeting people, commercial contacts, all 667 00:29:37.630 --> 00:29:39.529 this sort of stuff. And we worked with David Coulthard, 668 00:29:39.549 --> 00:29:39.970 who was a former. 669 00:29:40.190 --> 00:29:40.650 One driver. 670 00:29:40.890 --> 00:29:43.730 He'd just retired. He was working on the BBC coverage. 671 00:29:43.750 --> 00:29:45.049 And we said to him, would you like to be 672 00:29:45.069 --> 00:29:47.029 part of our company? And he actually said, what would 673 00:29:47.049 --> 00:29:50.039 it cost me? We hadn't even considered, we were so 674 00:29:50.539 --> 00:29:52.440 naive to this whole thing. We hadn't even considered that 675 00:29:52.460 --> 00:29:54.630 he would pay to have some of our business. 676 00:29:54.690 --> 00:29:57.470 We thought we'd have to convince him. 677 00:29:57.509 --> 00:30:00.029 We were like, we'd have to convince him to have 678 00:30:00.069 --> 00:30:02.289 some of our business. So then we were like, well, 679 00:30:02.490 --> 00:30:04.670 how the hell do we decide what it costs? So 680 00:30:04.690 --> 00:30:06.809 Sunil said, well, I needed a new bathroom, which was 681 00:30:06.809 --> 00:30:08.349 15 grand. 682 00:30:09.069 --> 00:30:10.069 Big fan of the priority. 683 00:30:10.089 --> 00:30:10.369 Yeah. 684 00:30:10.549 --> 00:30:11.990 So Sunil said, well, why don't, if I can get 685 00:30:12.009 --> 00:30:14.150 a 15 grand, that'd be brilliant. So I said, okay, well, 686 00:30:14.170 --> 00:30:16.589 I'll have 15 grand as well. And we'll get, what 687 00:30:16.609 --> 00:30:17.970 should we give him? Sunil was like, I don't know, 688 00:30:17.970 --> 00:30:21.049 20% of the business. Like it's literally the best investment 689 00:30:21.089 --> 00:30:22.089 David Coulthard has ever made. 690 00:30:22.109 --> 00:30:24.849 Yeah, Christ alive, that's a return. 691 00:30:25.130 --> 00:30:28.250 So he got 20% of Whisper for his 30 grand 692 00:30:28.630 --> 00:30:29.890 and he was brilliant at. 693 00:30:30.029 --> 00:30:30.819 Are you still selling them? 694 00:30:31.779 --> 00:30:36.099 I've got something else you might want to invest in, 695 00:30:36.099 --> 00:30:40.099 but we can talk about that separately. So we started and. 696 00:30:42.930 --> 00:30:45.630 This is David and John from the David McWilliams podcast 697 00:30:45.990 --> 00:30:48.549 brought to you by Monzo, Ireland's newest bank. 698 00:30:48.769 --> 00:30:51.319 Now we've mentioned more than once about the need for 699 00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:54.019 more choice in Irish banking. 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Sign up today 710 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:23.819 by downloading the Monzo app. 711 00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:27.049 Monzo Bank Europe DAC, trading as Monzo, is regulated by 712 00:31:27.069 --> 00:31:29.369 the Central Bank of Ireland. Terms and conditions apply. 713 00:31:30.910 --> 00:31:35.490 Does your business have big ambitions? At Skillnet Ireland, we 714 00:31:35.529 --> 00:31:38.250 know the businesses that stay ahead are the ones that 715 00:31:38.289 --> 00:31:42.230 develop their people. As a government business support agency, we 716 00:31:42.289 --> 00:31:46.890 offer funded training and access to over 70 business networks nationwide. 717 00:31:47.410 --> 00:31:51.349 Join thousands of Irish businesses already investing. 718 00:31:50.930 --> 00:31:51.569 In their people. 719 00:31:52.210 --> 00:31:56.009 Big ambition takes skills. Visit skillnetireland.ie. 720 00:31:56.279 --> 00:32:03.470 ACAST recommends...

Hi, I'm Ryan Tuberty. 721 00:32:03.549 --> 00:32:05.990 And for those who don't know, I love books and 722 00:32:06.170 --> 00:32:08.589 I love a great story. And on my podcast, The 723 00:32:08.609 --> 00:32:11.470 Bookshelf with Ryan Tuberty, I sit down with fascinating people 724 00:32:11.789 --> 00:32:13.369 and we talk about the books that have shaped their 725 00:32:13.430 --> 00:32:16.009 lives and the stories behind them. We talk about the 726 00:32:16.029 --> 00:32:18.170 book they loved as a child, the book that brings 727 00:32:18.210 --> 00:32:20.680 them joy, and the book that changed their life. 728 00:32:21.059 --> 00:32:22.359 Over the seasons, I've chatted to. 729 00:32:22.259 --> 00:32:25.720 World leaders, cultural icons, sports stars, and some of my 730 00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:28.759 favorite authors. Well, season five is now available. So if 731 00:32:28.779 --> 00:32:30.819 you love books, if you love stories, and you love 732 00:32:30.859 --> 00:32:34.180 great conversations, Come and join me on the bookshelf every Tuesday. 733 00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:37.029 Watch on YouTube or indeed listen wherever you get your podcasts. 734 00:32:37.609 --> 00:32:41.569 Acast is home to the world's best podcasts, including Red Room, 735 00:32:42.089 --> 00:32:44.630 Catch Up with Louise McSharry, and the one you're listening 736 00:32:44.650 --> 00:32:45.809 to right now. 737 00:32:50.130 --> 00:32:51.869 And we got loads of commercial work and the business 738 00:32:51.910 --> 00:32:53.829 built up to seven or eight people, but there was 739 00:32:53.849 --> 00:32:56.750 still an element of being unfulfilled because we were TV people. 740 00:32:57.390 --> 00:33:00.960 And we were still not making television. So we then thought, well, 741 00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:03.039 let's go and meet all these TV channels and say, 742 00:33:03.059 --> 00:33:06.200 come on, let's make your content. And this was a really, 743 00:33:06.220 --> 00:33:09.220 really interesting time. And a lot of takeaways, you may 744 00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:11.240 well have experienced this as well. Certainly people listening to 745 00:33:11.259 --> 00:33:14.240 this might take something from it. We would meet the 746 00:33:14.289 --> 00:33:17.569 people that we used to work for and they wouldn't 747 00:33:17.630 --> 00:33:20.130 commission us to produce their content, even though we'd worked 748 00:33:20.190 --> 00:33:23.589 with them and they were our former colleagues. Because they 749 00:33:23.609 --> 00:33:25.130 were saying, well, you haven't got a track record of 750 00:33:25.150 --> 00:33:28.960 making anything. And we're like, well, whisper hasn't but we 751 00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:31.940 have so how do we solve this dilemma part of 752 00:33:31.980 --> 00:33:34.319 it i think was was we were the people that 753 00:33:34.339 --> 00:33:35.980 had taken the risk and we were the people that 754 00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:38.779 by then were probably a staff of as i say 755 00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:41.170 about 10 people and maybe turning over two million pounds 756 00:33:41.190 --> 00:33:43.049 a year which to a lot of people like seems 757 00:33:43.069 --> 00:33:45.890 hugely successful right so there was probably an element of 758 00:33:45.950 --> 00:33:47.609 jealousy and um. 759 00:33:49.390 --> 00:33:52.630 And also kind of if you were colleagues, then why 760 00:33:52.670 --> 00:33:53.210 wouldn't it be them? 761 00:33:53.619 --> 00:33:54.240 I think so. 762 00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:56.200 If it was you, if you can do that, like 763 00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:57.839 I've done the same thing as you, so why aren't. 764 00:33:57.740 --> 00:33:59.519 They going to be you? Especially like senior colleagues who 765 00:33:59.539 --> 00:34:00.700 would look at us and go, hold on, you were 766 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.400 the kid from CBBC that was presenting Formula One. You 767 00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:04.589 were just an assistant producer. 768 00:34:04.730 --> 00:34:04.970 Sure. 769 00:34:05.230 --> 00:34:07.269 I'm an exec producer and now you're telling me that 770 00:34:07.470 --> 00:34:10.010 you can produce my content. So we have to find 771 00:34:10.050 --> 00:34:14.050 a way around this. And I've always been, actually it's 772 00:34:14.070 --> 00:34:16.440 a nonsense to say that, I now think this, I 773 00:34:16.460 --> 00:34:18.440 can't say I've always been, because as I've told you, 774 00:34:18.460 --> 00:34:19.199 I had no. 775 00:34:19.300 --> 00:34:19.949 Experience in this. 776 00:34:20.469 --> 00:34:24.829 I now realise every business is a recruitment business. It 777 00:34:24.929 --> 00:34:27.070 literally is the people. So we thought, well, let's just 778 00:34:27.110 --> 00:34:30.230 go and hire the best people that we can. So 779 00:34:30.250 --> 00:34:32.389 then we come back to this whole risk-taking thing. And 780 00:34:33.170 --> 00:34:36.199 I think that I had been armed against this risk 781 00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:37.800 by those things that had happened when I was younger. 782 00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:40.420 I sort of had this mindset of, well, what can 783 00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:42.320 possibly go wrong? I've had some stuff happen and it 784 00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:45.230 was kind of all right. My hell of a failure 785 00:34:45.769 --> 00:34:48.130 led to me working in television. The death of my 786 00:34:48.170 --> 00:34:50.909 grandma led to an understanding that life is really precious 787 00:34:50.969 --> 00:34:52.780 and you need to enjoy every moment. My sacking from 788 00:34:52.820 --> 00:34:57.579 McDonald's led to me working in television because I had 789 00:34:57.599 --> 00:34:59.980 the spare time rather than frying fries. I was saying, 790 00:35:00.179 --> 00:35:01.400 I've got loads of tall man's, can I come and 791 00:35:01.460 --> 00:35:03.179 work for you? So I ended up at Rapture TV. 792 00:35:03.260 --> 00:35:06.889 All of the negatives, literally all of them had been 793

00:35:06.909 --> 00:35:09.550 turned into positives. So it kind of meant, well, what 794 00:35:09.590 --> 00:35:11.530 can go wrong? So we went to the best people 795 00:35:11.570 --> 00:35:13.659 that we work with and we said, Why don't you 796 00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:15.679 come and work for us? And again, we were like 797 00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:22.219 totally shocked that these people would leave ITV, BBC, Channel 4, 798 00:35:22.219 --> 00:35:25.599 massive production companies. They'd leave those companies and come and 799 00:35:25.619 --> 00:35:28.099 work with us. But we knew that if we could 800 00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:30.880 get those people, then we could get the job. We 801 00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:33.500 could win the work. Now, again, this is a slightly 802 00:35:33.539 --> 00:35:36.780 risky way of doing it. Most businesses go, well, if 803 00:35:36.820 --> 00:35:39.000 we win the work, then we'll hire the people. We 804 00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:40.579 had to do it the other way. We had to 805 00:35:40.699 --> 00:35:45.599 find another way to do it. And I think one 806 00:35:45.619 --> 00:35:47.179 of the things I'm most proud of is that we've 807 00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:51.199 always found a way of doing something that nobody else 808 00:35:51.260 --> 00:35:53.900 has thought of or isn't a very popular way of operating. Okay. 809 00:35:54.420 --> 00:35:55.280 Which I think is really vital. 810 00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:55.780 Yeah. 811 00:35:56.519 --> 00:36:00.039 I think, no, I think that is like a great 812 00:36:00.099 --> 00:36:02.570 origin story in the way of like, we've obviously I've 813 00:36:02.590 --> 00:36:04.570 had lots of different people on the podcast in terms 814 00:36:04.610 --> 00:36:07.130 of like the story of things starting up. But I 815 00:36:07.170 --> 00:36:11.909 think that a lot of the, entrepreneurship always seems like 816 00:36:11.989 --> 00:36:14.510 a big idea made happen rather than like a series 817 00:36:14.530 --> 00:36:16.769 of small ideas that kind of forms into what it 818 00:36:16.829 --> 00:36:19.889 ends up being which is this huge production company but 819 00:36:19.949 --> 00:36:22.530 actually it started from this one decision to like maybe 820 00:36:22.570 --> 00:36:24.170 try and get this one contract or. 821 00:36:24.130 --> 00:36:26.829 Yeah absolutely and by the way it's still this didn't 822 00:36:26.909 --> 00:36:29.449 solve the problem hiring these people was still a real 823 00:36:29.469 --> 00:36:32.010 challenge because what we found was instead of being told 824 00:36:32.690 --> 00:36:35.050 we'll never hire you we'd go in to try and 825 00:36:35.070 --> 00:36:36.489 win some work and they'd say well you've got some 826 00:36:36.510 --> 00:36:37.969 good people so we'll give you this work and it 827 00:36:37.989 --> 00:36:40.210 was like the the little bit of the contract you 828 00:36:40.250 --> 00:36:42.570 didn't really want to win. There was no value in it. 829 00:36:42.610 -->

00:36:44.869 It wasn't the elite stuff. And we wanted still to 830 00:36:44.889 --> 00:36:47.710 get the best stuff. And the other thing that was 831 00:36:47.750 --> 00:36:50.070 a bit of a challenge around this time was I 832 00:36:50.110 --> 00:36:52.929 was still working as a presenter. And it was important 833 00:36:52.989 --> 00:36:55.219 for me to make sure that my presenting was totally 834 00:36:55.300 --> 00:36:57.880 separate from the production company. Because what I didn't want 835 00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:01.219 was this just to become a vehicle that was successful 836 00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:05.559 or unsuccessful, depending on my presenting career being successful or unsuccessful. 837 00:37:05.619 --> 00:37:08.059 And I remember I got a phone call from the 838 00:37:08.099 --> 00:37:10.849 head of Channel 4 when they won the rights to 839 00:37:10.889 --> 00:37:14.289 Formula One. So just to put a timeline on this, 840 00:37:14.909 --> 00:37:18.190 I had, we'd set Whisper up in about 2011. I 841 00:37:18.250 --> 00:37:22.300 joined BT Sport at the end of 2012. And I 842 00:37:22.340 --> 00:37:24.780 think at the end, towards the end of 2013, the 843 00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:27.019 BBC lost the rights to Formula One. They went to 844 00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:29.360 Channel 4. So we'd been going at Whisper maybe a 845 00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:29.920 couple of years. 846 00:37:29.940 --> 00:37:30.539 Right, right. 847 00:37:31.699 --> 00:37:33.530 And the head of Channel 4 rang and said to me, 848 00:37:33.550 --> 00:37:35.289 I want you to come and be the host of 849 00:37:35.329 --> 00:37:36.989 the Channel 4 coverage on Channel 4. And I said, well, 850 00:37:37.630 --> 00:37:39.840 I've just signed a contract with BT Sport. I'm really 851 00:37:39.880 --> 00:37:42.980 loyal to them. I don't feel comfortable walking away from 852 00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:46.500 that contract. And then they said, well, if you accept 853 00:37:46.539 --> 00:37:53.210 the presenting job, then we could give Whisper the production work. Now, 854 00:37:53.230 --> 00:37:55.429 this is a multi-million pound contract we're talking about here. 855 00:37:55.590 --> 00:37:58.349 That is a juicy, juicy piece of work. 856 00:37:58.369 --> 00:38:00.389 So then I'm having to go to Sunol to tell 857 00:38:00.409 --> 00:38:02.289 him what happened. And he said, well, of course, you'll 858 00:38:02.349 --> 00:38:05.929 quit BT, present Formula One, and this will be, you know, 859 00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:09.019 us made. So then I had to say, no, like, 860 00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:11.099 I'm really firm in the fact that what I do 861 00:38:11.119 --> 00:38:13.019 is totally separate. We have to win this on merit. 862 00:38:14.099 --> 00:38:15.420 And I still think there'll be people in the industry 863 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:17.460 that don't think we won this on merit. But we 864 00:38:17.500 --> 00:38:19.380 absolutely did. And do you know what we did? We 865 00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:21.719 went to all of our amazing contacts in Formula One 866 00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:23.699 who were working for the Beeb and who were going 867 00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:25.099 to be available. And we said to all of them, 868 00:38:25.980 --> 00:38:28.219 agree to only work with us, only work with Whisper. 869 00:38:29.139 --> 00:38:31.760 Channel 4 were explicit. They said, we won't give you 870 00:38:31.780 --> 00:38:33.420 this contract. The only way we'd get it, it was 871 00:38:33.500 --> 00:38:35.539 if I came with it. And so we were up 872 00:38:35.579 --> 00:38:38.239 against a few other really big production companies, to win 873 00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:40.340 the work. And so we actually went to all of 874 00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:42.260 these people and said, sign this bit of paper that 875 00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:43.840 says you'll work with us or you'd love to work 876 00:38:43.860 --> 00:38:46.469 with Whisper and we'll make you part of our big package. 877 00:38:46.929 --> 00:38:49.349 The truth is they could have worked for anyone. 878 00:38:49.570 --> 00:38:50.070 Yeah, you can't. 879 00:38:50.329 --> 00:38:52.670 Right, you can't control who and when people work. But 880 00:38:52.690 --> 00:38:54.389 the fact we'd gone and got all of these names, 881 00:38:55.170 --> 00:38:56.789 presented them to Channel 4, and I remember we put 882 00:38:56.849 --> 00:39:01.269 on the, we created like a beautiful colour booklet and 883 00:39:01.309 --> 00:39:05.179 it said on there like 500 people hours of 500 884 00:39:05.179 --> 00:39:07.659 years combined experience of working in formula one like we 885 00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:10.659 were the most experienced people yeah we had to win 886 00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:13.250 it properly properly win it on merit and that was 887 00:39:13.429 --> 00:39:18.289 really the first big thing that we won which transformed 888 00:39:18.309 --> 00:39:21.449 the business and that was winning the rights to host 889 00:39:22.230 --> 00:39:25.190 and produce channel four's coverage of formula one and now 890 00:39:25.250 --> 00:39:27.849 we do we still do it we recently produced the 891 00:39:27.889 --> 00:39:30.639 lionesses for the bbc the whole of the women's euros 892 00:39:30.699 --> 00:39:34.340 we're producing the paris paralympics for channel four having just 893 00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:37.599 done the paralympics previously we work for uefa we work 894 00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:41.030 for fifa we we just commissioned the daytime quiz show 895 00:39:41.050 --> 00:39:43.369 with stephen fry we've got a chat show in america 896 00:39:43.389 --> 00:39:46.510 that we've done we've got another daytime show for itv 897 00:39:46.550 --> 00:39:49.880 we like the business it's just picking up big wins 898 00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:53.989 everywhere yeah and it all came from naivety it all 899 00:39:54.050 --> 00:39:57.269 came from taking that leap of faith and it all 900 00:39:57.289 --> 00:40:00.269 came from trying to

find another way to solve the 901 00:40:00.309 --> 00:40:02.539 puzzle that no one else is solving in that way. 902 00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:04.559 Yeah and it kind of sounds like a continuous like 903 00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:06.159 one foot in front of the other and like a 904 00:40:06.219 --> 00:40:10.409 rerouting like someone saying someone creating a dead end And 905 00:40:10.449 --> 00:40:12.010 then you being like, right, okay, well, that's not the 906 00:40:12.050 --> 00:40:14.590 right way to do it. Let's go around this way. 907 00:40:14.630 --> 00:40:17.150 And you having that gut feeling that like, no, we're 908 00:40:17.190 --> 00:40:19.409 not going to get this purely through me presenting it. 909 00:40:19.469 --> 00:40:20.210 We're going to. 910 00:40:20.130 --> 00:40:21.050 Do this differently. 911 00:40:21.590 --> 00:40:25.599 Is like the conviction of that decision is, I mean, 912 00:40:25.619 --> 00:40:29.039 it's like really, really powerful and definitely... I don't think 913 00:40:29.059 --> 00:40:32.260 should be understated in terms of you being really clear 914 00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:34.179 what you wanted from the business and what you wanted 915 00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:36.360 from that kind of contract if you were going to 916 00:40:36.380 --> 00:40:40.460 get it what do you think the biggest mistakes you 917 00:40:40.539 --> 00:40:43.659 made when building that company were. 918 00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:47.320 You see this is a really hard one because I 919 00:40:47.389 --> 00:40:51.670 can I can talk about me making mistakes personally one 920 00:40:51.690 --> 00:40:55.110 of the real challenges for whisper is because we did 921 00:40:55.130 --> 00:40:59.199 it slowly I don't I can't think of any really 922 00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:01.780 big mistakes that we made. Because I think you could 923 00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:05.170 argue that doing it really slowly, not taking on any 924 00:41:05.210 --> 00:41:08.710 investment would be a mistake. I mean, we also became 925 00:41:08.750 --> 00:41:11.150 part of something called the Channel 4 Growth Fund, right? 926 00:41:11.849 --> 00:41:14.949 Which was where Channel 4 were looking for production companies 927 00:41:15.050 --> 00:41:17.349 who were small but had more potential than they were 928 00:41:17.409 --> 00:41:22.420 realizing to grow. And they invested in us. Now you 929 00:41:22.460 --> 00:41:25.559 could say that was a mistake because they paid a 930 00:41:25.579 --> 00:41:27.699 really small amount for their stake and they sold it 931 00:41:27.780 --> 00:41:31.860 for a profit. which was great for them. But actually, 932 00:41:32.340 --> 00:41:35.389 I believe that Channel 4 totally transformed our business. So 933 00:41:35.469 --> 00:41:38.929 you can't always put the financial value of something at 934 00:41:38.969 --> 00:41:41.469 the centre of what you do. And I know this 935 00:41:41.510 --> 00:41:45.989 sounds like ridiculous, Grace, but Sunil is such a brilliant CEO. 936 00:41:46.409 --> 00:41:49.960 The business has been so fascinating to watch it grow. 937 00:41:50.139 --> 00:41:54.519 And I can't think of any big mistakes that we've made. 938 00:41:54.539 --> 00:41:59.420 The biggest thing we've done is to bring someone on 939 00:41:59.460 --> 00:42:03.739 board with a Formula One mindset in David Coulthard because 940 00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:06.300 the exacting standards that he brings with him. We run 941 00:42:06.340 --> 00:42:10.650 ourselves like a motor racing team, like an elite sports outfit. 942 00:42:11.190 --> 00:42:13.110 That belief that they can do anything and they just 943 00:42:13.150 --> 00:42:14.849 make it happen. You know, make it happen is one 944 00:42:14.889 --> 00:42:16.769 of the mottos of the business. And we do everything 945 00:42:16.789 --> 00:42:19.989 we can to just make it happen. You know, we 946 00:42:20.050 --> 00:42:22.969 produced an amazing opening VT last year with Tom Cruise. 947 00:42:23.170 --> 00:42:23.289 Mm-hmm. 948 00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:25.519 Because we were just like, well, let's just make it happen. 949 00:42:25.539 --> 00:42:27.320 Let's just call Tom Cruise's office and see if it 950 00:42:27.340 --> 00:42:29.860 can happen. And lo and behold, the next thing we know, 951 00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:33.230 Tom Cruise is personally calling the producer who's making the 952 00:42:33.250 --> 00:42:35.010 film at Whisper going, right, I've got some great ideas. 953 00:42:35.030 --> 00:42:37.130 Let's do this. He flies in in his own helicopter, 954 00:42:37.750 --> 00:42:39.570 films with us for a day and then shoots off again. 955 00:42:40.929 --> 00:42:44.070 Classic Tom. Classic Tom. As I would if I was 956 00:42:44.090 --> 00:42:48.900 Tom Cruise. Like thinking big, investing in people, keeping culture 957 00:42:48.920 --> 00:42:50.539 at the heart of what you do and trying to 958 00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:53.059 do the right thing is also really important. I think, 959 00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:57.159 I just want to call out trying to do the 960 00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:02.110 right thing as well because we are really, really passionate 961 00:43:02.239 --> 00:43:05.869 about equality. So we have an almost 50% female workforce. 962 00:43:06.570 --> 00:43:09.849 We have women in a really high position within the business. 963 00:43:10.389 --> 00:43:13.369 The CEO of the business is the Asian son of 964 00:43:13.550 --> 00:43:16.480 a news agents in Twickenham. Those people are totally underrepresented 965 00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:19.500 in our industry. When we produced the Paralympics, it was 966 00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:23.059 important for us to make sure that the workforce behind 967 00:43:23.099 --> 00:43:26.010 the camera was We're disabled. Traditionally, it's just been the 968 00:43:26.030 --> 00:43:28.010 people in front of the camera, which to us felt 969 00:43:28.550 --> 00:43:32.250 kind of disingenuous. We run lots of scholarships with local 970

00:43:32.289 --> 00:43:34.969 universities and local colleges and the local area where we're 971 00:43:34.989 --> 00:43:37.789 based in West London to bring people into the business 972 00:43:37.889 --> 00:43:40.929 who don't normally get a chance in television. We run 973 00:43:40.989 --> 00:43:43.800 open days where anyone can apply to come and meet 974 00:43:43.889 --> 00:43:45.380 us and we can try and get them into the business. 975 00:43:46.440 --> 00:43:49.099 And I think that what that then brings us is 976 00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:53.440 that real cognitive diversity, that diversity of thought, that different opinion. 977 00:43:54.110 --> 00:43:56.409 rather than us trying to produce content for a certain 978 00:43:56.429 --> 00:43:58.289 group of people that we think they want, let's get 979 00:43:58.349 --> 00:44:00.699 those people in and get them to produce the content 980 00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:03.360 that they know they would want to watch. And I 981 00:44:03.420 --> 00:44:07.159 think if you can do what's right, then I think 982 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.719 that can be transformational for a business because actually it 983 00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:13.260 kind of means that whether you hit your numbers financially 984 00:44:13.300 --> 00:44:15.820 or you don't, to know that you're doing things in 985 00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:19.010 the right way actually carries a real value and I 986 00:44:19.030 --> 00:44:21.670 think other people see it. And I actually think it's 987 00:44:21.690 --> 00:44:23.760 hard to put value on it I think that's been 988 00:44:23.780 --> 00:44:25.480 a real game changer for us as a business that 989 00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:26.659 people from the outside look at it and go, oh 990 00:44:26.679 --> 00:44:27.119 my goodness. 991 00:44:27.449 --> 00:44:27.699 Yeah. 992 00:44:27.719 --> 00:44:29.730 They really do put their money where their mouth is. Yeah. 993 00:44:29.769 --> 00:44:32.610 I mean, I think that's incredibly valuable. As you say, 994 00:44:32.630 --> 00:44:35.469 I think you can tell companies that do that versus 995 00:44:35.730 --> 00:44:36.889 companies that don't do that. 996 00:44:36.949 --> 00:44:38.710 And actually... Lots of them say they do, right? 997 00:44:38.769 --> 00:44:39.289 Yeah, sure. 998 00:44:39.369 --> 00:44:42.659 And like everyone has a sustainability statement and an inclusivity 999 00:44:42.699 --> 00:44:44.780 statement and like, and all of the, like, this is 1000 00:44:44.820 --> 00:44:47.019 what we're trying to do to, you know, whatever it 1001 00:44:47.059 --> 00:44:50.019 might be. But actually something like a TV in particular 1002 00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:54.420 that is incredibly hard to get into is especially without 1003 00:44:54.500 --> 00:44:57.340 any sort of kind of nepotism, which we know is 1004 00:44:57.380 --> 00:45:00.380 kind of rife in that type of industry, the actual 1005 00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:05.849 like positive moves in that way of actually like going

1006 00:45:05.929 --> 00:45:08.010 out of your way to ensure that that's the case. 1007 00:45:08.070 --> 00:45:10.269 I mean, when you're saying that from the perspective of 1008 00:45:10.329 --> 00:45:12.590 someone who was told we don't hire people like you 1009 00:45:12.889 --> 00:45:13.750 and from the point. 1010 00:45:13.610 --> 00:45:15.920 Where actually you've got your first. 1011 00:45:15.980 --> 00:45:18.940 Yeah, like as in you understand how important that is 1012 00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:22.730 because you... were once put in the box of actually 1013 00:45:22.989 --> 00:45:24.369 and I'm not saying that's not to say that other 1014 00:45:24.389 --> 00:45:26.269 people don't understand it but it's in a way of 1015 00:45:26.289 --> 00:45:29.849 like in the same way as I want young women 1016 00:45:30.070 --> 00:45:32.010 in the room to be able to create clothes for 1017 00:45:32.050 --> 00:45:36.090 young women because I'm like sure it could be you 1018 00:45:36.110 --> 00:45:38.429 know we could have an all-male board and it could 1019 00:45:38.489 --> 00:45:41.820 be whatever it might be but actually like I know 1020 00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:44.079 it's possible because I'm the one doing it and I 1021 00:45:44.139 --> 00:45:46.659 know why I feel so strongly about this sports bra 1022 00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:48.820 or whatever it might be. Who am I to say 1023 00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:51.699 that I'm the only person who can flip that trend 1024 00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:54.610 in terms of being the person who's making the decisions, 1025 00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:56.969 whether it's financial, whether it's product, whatever it might be. 1026 00:45:56.989 --> 00:45:59.210 I want to talk about high performance. 1027 00:45:59.550 --> 00:46:01.210 You are high performance. I mean, what is there to say? 1028 00:46:03.269 --> 00:46:06.010 I want to talk about the podcast, the decision to 1029 00:46:06.230 --> 00:46:08.949 start that. Where did that come into the whole kind 1030 00:46:08.989 --> 00:46:10.449 of production process? 1031 00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:16.019 Company journey yeah so high performance is totally separate from 1032 00:46:16.039 --> 00:46:17.719 whisper right and i think that's the other thing that 1033 00:46:17.780 --> 00:46:20.960 i really enjoy is a bit of diversification um i 1034 00:46:20.980 --> 00:46:22.699 said i'd come on to it later now it's probably 1035 00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:24.659 a good time to talk about it like when i 1036 00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:25.099 had been. 1037 00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:29.820 At the bbc for for cbbc for eight years that 1038 00:46:29.860 --> 00:46:32.199 said 12 years i was at the bbc kids telly 1039 00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:35.400 and formula one like when i decided to leave the 1040 00:46:35.420 --> 00:46:40.039 bbc my contract was four more years of Formula One, 1041 00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:45.460 World Cups, Olympics, Commonwealth Games, match of the day, match 1042 00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:47.980

of the day two. I was hosting the one show 1043 00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:49.420 at the time. I was working on all the big 1044 00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:52.809 royal events for the BBC events team. Like if you 1045 00:46:52.829 --> 00:46:55.909 were to create the dream TV presenter contract, that was 1046 00:46:55.949 --> 00:47:00.849 probably the contract. But when I left Rapture TV, I 1047 00:47:00.869 --> 00:47:02.650 had a cool boss there. And I said to him, 1048 00:47:02.670 --> 00:47:04.840 I'm going to go to London and try and get 1049 00:47:04.860 --> 00:47:07.690 a job. with you know this guy who's called me 1050 00:47:07.730 --> 00:47:09.349 from children's bbc see if it works out and he 1051 00:47:09.389 --> 00:47:11.650 said i love that you're taking that risk he said 1052 00:47:11.670 --> 00:47:14.849 just never sit in the comfy chair and i remember 1053 00:47:15.050 --> 00:47:17.170 those words ringing in my ears when i had this 1054 00:47:17.230 --> 00:47:19.010 amazing job offer from the bbc but then at the 1055 00:47:19.050 --> 00:47:22.340 same time an offer from bt sport to go there 1056 00:47:22.539 --> 00:47:24.800 and present their football coverage and it would have been 1057 00:47:24.820 --> 00:47:26.000 the easiest thing in the world to stay at the 1058 00:47:26.039 --> 00:47:27.699 beep for another four years but i thought you know 1059 00:47:27.739 --> 00:47:30.719 what i'm not going to sit in the comfy chair 1060 00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:33.630 i'm going to take a risk And I was full 1061 00:47:33.650 --> 00:47:36.289 of fear. I remember walking into an office about two 1062 00:47:36.329 --> 00:47:38.789 or three weeks after I joined BT Sport and I'd 1063 00:47:38.809 --> 00:47:41.150 walked away from the oldest and most famous broadcaster on 1064 00:47:41.170 --> 00:47:43.409 the planet. And I walked into a room and there 1065 00:47:43.429 --> 00:47:46.090 were six people sitting around a desk. And that was 1066 00:47:46.139 --> 00:47:50.820 the entirety of BT Sport. We were talking about opening titles, music, 1067 00:47:51.059 --> 00:47:54.039 where the studio should be, what the studio should look like, 1068 00:47:54.599 --> 00:47:56.719 what content we were going to put on. It was 1069 00:47:56.780 --> 00:48:00.769 like going from the world's greatest university back to like 1070 00:48:00.809 --> 00:48:02.710 a nursery or something. You know what I mean? You 1071 00:48:02.730 --> 00:48:05.050 went from the biggest and the best and the most 1072 00:48:05.090 --> 00:48:08.659 famous to something right in its infancy. It was the 1073 00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:11.280 single most exciting thing that I've ever been involved in. 1074 00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:12.260 Yeah. 1075 00:48:12.380 --> 00:48:15.300 But it's about taking the risk. It's about taking that leap, 1076 00:48:15.380 --> 00:48:17.300 doing something a little bit different. It was important for me. 1077 00:48:17.300 --> 00:48:19.590 What pulled you towards that? Was it the fact that 1078 00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:23.289 it was different? Was it purely that? Or was it 1079 00:48:23.590 --> 00:48:25.489 kind of the potential that you saw from it? 1080 00:48:25.789 --> 00:48:29.030 It was the chance to... Well, the chance to present 1081 00:48:29.050 --> 00:48:31.449 Premier League football comes around very infrequently. And as a 1082 00:48:31.489 --> 00:48:33.820 sports presenter, Premier League and Champions League football is like, 1083 00:48:34.280 --> 00:48:36.199 to me, it's the elite. If you can present that, 1084 00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:39.139 then you're in a very select band of people. I 1085 00:48:39.139 --> 00:48:42.920 also had this impression that I felt I needed to 1086 00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:45.619 leave the BBC because I'd come through the ranks there. 1087 00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:48.750 I'd come through Children's BBC to Formula One. I did 1088 00:48:48.869 --> 00:48:54.150 feel underappreciated and underloved. And I felt like almost the 1089 00:48:54.250 --> 00:48:57.010 only way to do that was... to walk away and 1090 00:48:57.030 --> 00:48:58.719 show someone else what I could do and deliver my 1091 00:48:58.760 --> 00:49:04.280 talents elsewhere. I also, we were having a baby, Florence, 1092 00:49:04.340 --> 00:49:06.900 our first child, and it was around that time as well. 1093 00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:09.639 And so there was that playing on my mind about, 1094 00:49:09.639 --> 00:49:12.500 if I sign this deal with the BBC, I'm going 1095 00:49:12.500 --> 00:49:16.070 to be away an awful lot. It was a whole combination. 1096 00:49:16.070 --> 00:49:18.230 Of risk to change when you're about to have. 1097 00:49:18.110 --> 00:49:20.269 A, it was a combination of things, but the biggest 1098 00:49:20.349 --> 00:49:22.719 pull was let's just take a chance on this. 1099 00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:23.000 Yeah. 1100 00:49:23.179 --> 00:49:25.599 Let's just see how this goes. I think I've always 1101 00:49:25.699 --> 00:49:27.599 been like that. I've always been someone that wants to 1102 00:49:27.659 --> 00:49:30.039 take a risk. You know, the reason why I tell 1103 00:49:30.059 --> 00:49:34.550 you that story was because I had this belief that 1104 00:49:35.289 --> 00:49:36.969 growing up, like I said, right at the start of 1105 00:49:36.989 --> 00:49:39.920 this conversation, you get normal people. And I was one 1106 00:49:39.940 --> 00:49:43.539 of those normal people. I would never, ever have made 1107 00:49:43.579 --> 00:49:46.860 a decision like walking away from the BBC to join 1108 00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:49.400 BT Sport at the start of my career. It was 1109 00:49:49.460 --> 00:49:52.059 only the time that I spent in Formula One and 1110 00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:54.380 with all of these amazing elite people that I got 1111 00:49:54.400 --> 00:49:55.679 the chance to speak to them all. So I remember 1112 00:49:55.699 --> 00:49:57.039 the first time I was in the pit lane, I 1113 00:49:57.039 -->

00:50:00.019 was like, wow, that person's a billionaire team owner. That 1114 00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:02.880 person's a Formula One driver. That person's a team principal. 1115 00:50:03.260 --> 00:50:06.420 That person's a globally famous actress. Like, I often used 1116 00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:09.030 to watch the races with Lewis Hamilton's girlfriend at the time, 1117 00:50:09.050 --> 00:50:11.699 Nicole Scherzinger. You know, so I was around. It was 1118 00:50:11.719 --> 00:50:13.510 just weird for me, this kid from Norfolk watching a 1119 00:50:13.530 --> 00:50:18.769 Grand Prix in Bahrain, sitting next to Nicole Scherzinger and 1120 00:50:18.789 --> 00:50:20.510 then Lewis Hamilton coming in and having a chat with you. 1121 00:50:20.530 --> 00:50:23.849 It was a strange time, kind of weird. But what 1122 00:50:23.869 --> 00:50:25.690 I did was I used it to say to all 1123 00:50:25.710 --> 00:50:28.150 these people, like, what's the secret? How did you get 1124 00:50:28.170 --> 00:50:30.090 to where you got to? Thinking that they would go, well, 1125 00:50:30.510 --> 00:50:33.429 I was born into wealth or my parents were billionaires. Oh, 1126 00:50:33.710 --> 00:50:37.460 this was always destined for me. They'd never said that. 1127 00:50:37.480 --> 00:50:42.380 They talked about consistency. They talked about taking a chance 1128 00:50:42.659 --> 00:50:44.519 and taking a risk and taking a leap of faith. 1129 00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:47.300 And they talked about hard work. And I took all 1130 00:50:47.320 --> 00:50:49.570 of those things. And I always wanted to then have 1131 00:50:49.610 --> 00:50:51.809 the kinds of conversations that we're now having on high performance. 1132 00:50:52.690 --> 00:50:55.250 But it felt churlish to have these conversations without actually 1133 00:50:55.309 --> 00:50:58.800 living it myself. So the inspiration to walk away from 1134 00:50:58.840 --> 00:51:02.000 Formula One ironically came from Formula One, that those people 1135 00:51:02.179 --> 00:51:05.360 are inherent. risk takers they will take a chance they'll 1136 00:51:05.380 --> 00:51:08.139 do something that most people won't do and that's really 1137 00:51:08.179 --> 00:51:10.539 what led to us creating high performance I wanted to 1138 00:51:10.599 --> 00:51:15.059 have these kinds of conversations and it felt like a 1139 00:51:15.159 --> 00:51:16.920 podcast was the right platform to do it. 1140 00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:19.429 On and so that started am I right in thinking 1141 00:51:19.489 --> 00:51:22.409 it mainly started with a lot of sports people it. 1142 00:51:22.389 --> 00:51:25.949 Did so I also had this fear like this imposter 1143 00:51:25.969 --> 00:51:27.929 syndrome thing where I was like no one's going to 1144 00:51:27.969 --> 00:51:30.090 care what a former kids tv presenter that's done a 1145 00:51:30.110 --> 00:51:32.150 bit of presenting on football and formula one thinks about 1146 00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:36.699 high performance Um,

so I'm, I was at a talk 1147 00:51:36.739 --> 00:51:38.920 at Norwich city football club and I met Damien Hughes, 1148 00:51:38.940 --> 00:51:41.159 who's my co-host as you know, you've met him. And 1149 00:51:41.179 --> 00:51:44.619 then I thought maybe this guy could be the guy 1150 00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:47.820 that brings the credibility to the conversation. So I just 1151 00:51:47.860 --> 00:51:49.150 called him and I said, look, I really want to 1152 00:51:49.170 --> 00:51:52.949 have a conversation with people about high achievement and success 1153 00:51:53.010 --> 00:51:55.650 and failure and all these things. Would you be happy 1154 00:51:55.670 --> 00:51:59.860 to be part of that conversation? Again, imposter syndrome told 1155 00:51:59.880 --> 00:52:01.119 me that he would say no, but he didn't. He 1156 00:52:01.159 --> 00:52:05.949 said yes. And we started at the back end of 2019. 1157 00:52:05.949 --> 00:52:08.409 Where the whole thing that was taking a huge shift 1158 00:52:08.750 --> 00:52:10.869 is that in all honesty, like when we first started 1159 00:52:10.909 --> 00:52:13.340 High Performance, it was mainly sports people because those were 1160 00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:15.699 my contacts and they were his contacts. And you know 1161 00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:17.820 what it's like when you first start, you don't have 1162 00:52:17.900 --> 00:52:19.760 any evidence that this thing's gonna be successful. 1163 00:52:19.780 --> 00:52:21.340 You have to rely on your- Yeah, mine was founders really. 1164 00:52:21.380 --> 00:52:22.460 It was kind of, you know, it's natural. 1165 00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:25.429 You rely on your black book, right? But I wanted 1166 00:52:25.449 --> 00:52:29.730 the conversation back then to be life's about failing, faltering, slipping, 1167 00:52:30.309 --> 00:52:34.250 getting punched in the guts, getting back up, taking a risk, 1168 00:52:34.369 --> 00:52:37.010 getting knocked down, going again. And the reason for that 1169 00:52:37.030 --> 00:52:38.840 is because that was my story. That's all the things 1170 00:52:38.860 --> 00:52:42.099 that I've spoken about. It's only now three years down 1171 00:52:42.139 --> 00:52:44.139 the line of having these conversations on high performance that 1172 00:52:44.179 --> 00:52:47.780 I realized that none of that is what success is. 1173 00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:51.119 None of that creates more success. Getting punched in the 1174 00:52:51.159 --> 00:52:54.179 guts and talking badly to yourself and failing and faltering 1175 00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:57.969 just creates more of the same. So the biggest revelation 1176 00:52:57.989 --> 00:52:59.610 for me is that my idea of what high performance 1177 00:52:59.670 --> 00:53:02.730 is has fundamentally changed from doing this podcast. You know, like, 1178 00:53:03.469 --> 00:53:06.849 is there a higher high performance than happiness? Probably not. 1179 00:53:07.010 --> 00:53:07.230 No. 1180 00:53:07.510 --> 00:53:09.469 When I first started, was it even in the top 1181 00:53:09.469 --> 00:53:11.309 50 things that I thought were going to be important? 1182 00:53:11.570 --> 00:53:13.730 Probably not. So it's been really good for me in 1183 00:53:13.750 --> 00:53:14.230 that respect. 1184 00:53:14.670 --> 00:53:17.030 Who would you say you've learned most from as a guest, 1185 00:53:17.110 --> 00:53:17.929 obviously other than me? 1186 00:53:18.760 --> 00:53:20.000 Obviously you were incredible. 1187 00:53:20.039 --> 00:53:20.260 Yes. 1188 00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:23.159 But it wouldn't feel right to sit here and regale 1189 00:53:23.179 --> 00:53:26.619 you with tales of your own stories. I mean, Johnny Wilkinson, 1190 00:53:26.659 --> 00:53:28.380 if people have not heard of high performance and they 1191 00:53:28.420 --> 00:53:31.699 want to have their brains put through a washing machine. 1192 00:53:32.340 --> 00:53:37.219 Listen to our conversation with Johnny Wilkinson. It's the conversation 1193 00:53:37.239 --> 00:53:39.500 that changed the game for the High Performance Podcast. And 1194 00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:42.000 so Johnny Wilkinson kicked the drop goal that won the 1195 00:53:42.039 --> 00:53:45.119 Rugby World Cup for England in 2003. He told us 1196 00:53:45.139 --> 00:53:49.570 that doing the washing up is as important as winning 1197 00:53:49.610 --> 00:53:52.809 the Rugby World Cup. And so we're like, well, you 1198 00:53:52.849 --> 00:53:53.670 need to explain that. 1199 00:53:53.730 --> 00:53:55.369 Yes, I am lost. 1200 00:53:55.510 --> 00:53:56.969 And he said, well, let me just break it down 1201 00:53:57.010 --> 00:54:00.059 for you. What is... Playing rugby or winning the Rugby 1202 00:54:00.099 --> 00:54:03.039 World Cup, using your body to achieve a goal. What 1203 00:54:03.079 --> 00:54:05.519 is doing the washing up? Using your body to achieve 1204 00:54:05.539 --> 00:54:08.539 a goal. Why is winning the Rugby World Cup here 1205 00:54:08.599 --> 00:54:11.699 and washing up to a brilliant level here? It's because 1206 00:54:11.719 --> 00:54:13.880 society tells us that winning the Rugby World Cup is 1207 00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:16.440 more important. We were joined by Hector Beyerin on the 1208 00:54:16.460 --> 00:54:18.500 podcast who told us you need to live like a candle, 1209 00:54:18.539 --> 00:54:20.909 which is exactly the same message. He said, you need 1210 00:54:20.929 --> 00:54:23.110 to be a candle. Your flame needs to burn the same. 1211 00:54:23.130 --> 00:54:26.530 So let's say you have some really bad results. with 1212 00:54:26.550 --> 00:54:28.800 your business, right? And financially you're struggling or the sales 1213 00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:31.760 dip or something. And then equally the next month, you 1214 00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:33.820 have an amazing month and you break all your records. 1215 00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:36.820 You are no less of a person for your difficult month. 1216 00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:39.920 And you're

no more of a person for your brilliant month, 1217 00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:42.900 which was a great revelation for us. Susie Ma came 1218 00:54:42.940 --> 00:54:46.119 on the podcast and she spoke about making sure that 1219 00:54:46.340 --> 00:54:48.980 all of your plans are infinite. So she spoke about 1220 00:54:49.039 --> 00:54:52.340 infinite purpose. So purpose could be, I'm going to get 1221 00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:54.400 a six pack. Well, the problem with that is you 1222 00:54:54.420 --> 00:54:56.710 either get a six pack And then you lose motivation 1223 00:54:56.730 --> 00:54:58.329 because you got it. Or you don't get it and 1224 00:54:58.349 --> 00:55:00.250 you lose motivation because you never got it. So she 1225 00:55:00.289 --> 00:55:04.309 came on and spoke about infinite purpose, finding your purpose 1226 00:55:04.329 --> 00:55:07.010 that never ends. So originally with High Performance, we were like, 1227 00:55:07.179 --> 00:55:10.460 let's reach 10 million people with the message of High Performance. 1228 00:55:11.400 --> 00:55:15.380 We've now had about 40 million downloads. So that's a 1229 00:55:15.460 --> 00:55:17.860 nonsense number to have picked out. So the purpose of 1230 00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:21.369 High Performance is reach more people every single day to 1231 00:55:21.389 --> 00:55:24.489 get them closer to their own version of High Performance. 1232 00:55:25.300 --> 00:55:29.039 We were joined by Rangan Chatterjee, who spoke about ikigai, 1233 00:55:29.460 --> 00:55:31.880 which is your reason for being. So what are you 1234 00:55:31.900 --> 00:55:35.559 good at? What do you love doing? What does the 1235 00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:39.179 world need? And what can generate income? If you can 1236 00:55:39.260 --> 00:55:42.219 find something that you're good at and you love, and 1237 00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:44.360 that the world needs, and that you can use it 1238 00:55:44.389 --> 00:55:46.019 to pay your bills so you can actually do it, 1239 00:55:47.050 --> 00:55:50.489 that is the reason for being. That is your ikigai. 1240 00:55:51.289 --> 00:55:52.789 And the final one that I would call out is 1241 00:55:52.989 --> 00:55:56.530 this idea of fault versus responsibility. that's a big learning 1242 00:55:56.570 --> 00:55:59.019 for us on the podcast that we all walk around 1243 00:55:59.179 --> 00:56:01.760 with all kinds of things that are not our fault. 1244 00:56:02.739 --> 00:56:06.280 Trauma from childhood, an illness that you're not expecting, like 1245 00:56:06.420 --> 00:56:08.880 a global pandemic is probably the biggest, the most obvious 1246 00:56:09.699 --> 00:56:12.300 example of something that's none of our fault that's happened 1247 00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:15.130 in the last few years. You know, a breakdown in 1248 00:56:15.150 --> 00:56:17.309 a relationship with a partner, someone cheating on you or 1249 00:56:17.349 --> 00:56:20.809 walking out the door, whatever. Those things are not your fault. 1250 00:56:21.670 --> 00:56:23.699 The difficult conversation we need to have with people is, 1251 00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:29.179 They're still your responsibility. It's your responsibility. And that finding 1252 00:56:29.219 --> 00:56:34.460 that mindset of 100% responsibility is a really like fascinating 1253 00:56:34.659 --> 00:56:38.679 tenant of the high performance podcast. So my mind has 1254 00:56:38.699 --> 00:56:43.809 just been totally opened up, exploded, changed, altered, and it 1255 00:56:43.869 --> 00:56:47.030 is no longer. And I almost like regret the title 1256 00:56:47.090 --> 00:56:50.309 high performance. It makes it sound like high wealth, high earnings, 1257 00:56:50.349 --> 00:56:54.179 high status. it's none of those things it's high happiness 1258 00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:58.960 it's high self-worth it's talking well to yourself because everyone 1259 00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:02.539 now is delaying their happiness mainly because of social media 1260 00:57:02.559 --> 00:57:05.139 the pressures from society the kind of messaging that not 1261 00:57:05.179 --> 00:57:07.199 on this podcast but lots of podcasts put out there 1262 00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:09.280 lots of social media channels put out there they're like 1263 00:57:09.800 --> 00:57:11.440 get this house and you'll be happy you know you 1264 00:57:11.480 --> 00:57:14.900 could chart life right do well at my GCSEs I'll 1265 00:57:14.920 --> 00:57:17.679 be happy to do well at my A-levels then I'd 1266 00:57:17.699 --> 00:57:19.380 definitely be happy well if I can get my place 1267 00:57:19.420 --> 00:57:20.780 at uni I'll really be happy but if I get 1268 00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:22.619 a first I'll be delighted now I want my dream 1269 00:57:22.659 --> 00:57:25.079 job but I definitely want a promotion then I'll be 1270 00:57:25.119 --> 00:57:27.639 really happy and now I can buy my first house 1271 00:57:27.679 --> 00:57:29.460 well it's a two bed once I get a four 1272 00:57:29.480 --> 00:57:31.179 bed I'll be delighted then I'll try and meet my 1273 00:57:31.219 --> 00:57:33.199 life partner if we get married I'll be happy but 1274 00:57:33.219 --> 00:57:34.949 then I won't be really happy till we have kids 1275 00:57:35.030 --> 00:57:36.510 but that's kind of great but I won't be happy 1276 00:57:36.530 --> 00:57:38.969 till they're happy and then I'll finally retire then I'll 1277 00:57:38.989 --> 00:57:41.289 definitely really relax and be happy and then I'll go 1278 00:57:41.329 --> 00:57:43.489 abroad and we'll live abroad then I'll finally relax and 1279 00:57:43.510 --> 00:57:47.440 be really happy you're dead 1280 00:57:47.460 --> 00:57:49.530 1281 00:57:49.570 --> 00:57:51.769 1282 00:57:51.789 --> 00:57:53.909 1283 00:57:53.949 --> 00:57:55.909 1284 00:57:55.929 --> 00:57:58.090 1285 00:57:58.190 --> 00:58:00.329 1286 00:58:00.349 --> 00:58:02.159 1287 00:58:02.179 --> 00:58:04.440

1288 00:58:04.539 --> 00:58:07.079 1289 00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:09.760 1290 00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:12.719 condense all of those messages for people then I think 1291 00:58:12.840 --> 00:58:14.900 we've done a good job on high performance but it's 1292 00:58:14.980 --> 00:58:18.110 not about making money and being successful and building your. 1293 00:58:18.050 --> 00:58:21.349 Wealth yeah I think such important messages and I think 1294 00:58:22.050 --> 00:58:25.820 they're the types of things that we hear almost not 1295 00:58:26.079 --> 00:58:27.619 I don't say over and over in a way to 1296 00:58:27.639 --> 00:58:31.230 kind of do down how important they are but I 1297 00:58:31.269 --> 00:58:33.909 think they're the messages that we need to hear probably 1298 00:58:33.969 --> 00:58:36.269 like once or twice a week to actually even ever 1299 00:58:36.309 --> 00:58:39.659 start internalizing. Like we all know we're delaying happiness. We 1300 00:58:39.780 --> 00:58:42.329 all know we're, And then we always think that we're 1301 00:58:42.349 --> 00:58:45.030 the exception that needs to get success first because we're 1302 00:58:45.090 --> 00:58:47.320 harder than the others and therefore we're resilient enough to 1303 00:58:47.380 --> 00:58:51.000 delay happiness for now. But actually, you kind of need 1304 00:58:51.019 --> 00:58:53.679 to be constantly internalising those messages in order to be 1305 00:58:53.739 --> 00:58:57.639 able to actually get to a point where you're understanding 1306 00:58:57.679 --> 00:59:00.219 that you're enjoying the journey, not just the destination, and 1307 00:59:00.260 --> 00:59:02.590 understanding that the goalposts are always going to move. So 1308 00:59:02.610 --> 00:59:04.449 you've got to make the goalposts different. You've got to 1309 00:59:04.489 --> 00:59:07.030 make the thing about the actual, you know, even getting 1310 00:59:07.050 --> 00:59:07.949 there in the first place. 1311 00:59:07.969 --> 00:59:09.579 And by the way, like I still get a thrill 1312 00:59:09.659 --> 00:59:11.000 from things being successful. 1313 00:59:11.059 --> 00:59:11.639 Of course. 1314 00:59:11.820 --> 00:59:13.119 I still get a buzz from that. 1315 00:59:13.179 --> 00:59:13.420 Yeah. 1316 00:59:13.539 --> 00:59:16.199 I'm not saying don't be thrilled as you go along. 1317 00:59:16.239 --> 00:59:19.280 I'm just saying don't not be thrilled as you go along. 1318 00:59:19.320 --> 00:59:22.170 Like it's about those little wins, those little things every day. 1319 00:59:22.710 --> 00:59:24.449 Part of the issue, I think, is we can talk 1320 00:59:24.469 --> 00:59:27.289 like this for hours. The way the human brain obviously 1321 00:59:27.329 --> 00:59:30.730 works is it only takes one much more toxic negative 1322 00:59:30.789 --> 00:59:34.429 message to dominate people's thoughts so you know one of 1323 00:59:34.449 --> 00:59:35.909 the big things that we talk about when we go 1324 00:59:35.949 --> 00:59:37.730 and sort of meet groups of people and do workshops 1325 00:59:37.769 --> 00:59:40.269 and talk about high performance is they're like i know 1326 00:59:40.309 --> 00:59:43.010 all this but then i just see my neighbor with 1327 00:59:43.050 --> 00:59:45.639 a new car and i can't help but think ah 1328 00:59:45.800 --> 00:59:48.480 i wish that was me my answer to that always 1329 00:59:48.559 --> 00:59:51.340 is if you want what someone else has got right 1330 00:59:51.760 --> 00:59:55.389 whether it's their house their car their kids, their holiday, whatever. 1331 00:59:55.429 --> 00:59:57.289 Like my wife's currently got FOMO because all our friends 1332 00:59:57.309 --> 00:59:58.590 are going to go on a skiing holiday in a 1333 00:59:58.610 --> 01:00:01.389 few weeks and we're not, right? If you want the 1334 01:00:01.409 --> 01:00:03.489 things that they've got, you have to have everything they've got. 1335 01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:06.449 So that involves getting rid of your kids and having 1336 01:00:06.489 --> 01:00:09.820 their kids. That involves having the little traumas that they 1337 01:00:10.199 --> 01:00:12.420 have that you don't even see. It can often involve 1338 01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:14.719 having the big traumas that you even know about. You 1339 01:00:14.760 --> 01:00:16.840 can't cherry pick the best bits of everyone's lives and 1340 01:00:16.860 --> 01:00:19.199 want that for your life. If you want what they've got, 1341 01:00:19.639 --> 01:00:21.000 you need to be all in and have the lot. 1342 01:00:21.460 --> 01:00:23.480 And by the way, give up everything you've got. I 1343 01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:25.730 think once you say that to someone, you want to 1344 01:00:25.750 --> 01:00:27.750 give up your house, your kids, your job, your life, 1345 01:00:27.809 --> 01:00:30.289 your family, your parents for that. 1346 01:00:30.789 --> 01:00:31.190 Definitely. 1347 01:00:31.889 --> 01:00:35.449 Very few would say yes. So just stop that toxic 1348 01:00:35.849 --> 01:00:38.949 comparison of your life with other people's. Don't play the game. 1349 01:00:39.280 --> 01:00:42.280 Don't get sucked in. It's not real. You are enough. 1350 01:00:43.460 --> 01:00:45.639 What a good place to end. Thank you so much 1351 01:00:45.780 --> 01:00:48.119 for coming in. That's been a real, I mean, I 1352 01:00:48.139 --> 01:00:48.440 feel like. 1353 01:00:48.460 --> 01:00:50.059 Thanks for letting me talk to you. Yeah. 1354 01:00:50.840 --> 01:00:53.880 Which was really actually very helpful. You're incredible. Your career 1355 01:00:53.900 --> 01:00:57.440 has been incredible. And it's been, yeah, amazing to watch 1356 01:00:57.480 --> 01:01:00.099 for the amount of time I've kind of watched it. 1357 01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:02.440 And yeah, thank you so much. 1358 01:01:02.659 --> 01:01:04.139 You're so kind. I bet you feel like me, though, 1359 01:01:04.179 --> 01:01:06.010 that you feel like you're actually 5% of the way there. 1360 01:01:06.429 --> 01:01:07.139 Yeah. Yeah. 1361 01:01:07.510 --> 01:01:09.960 That's exciting, though, right? Yeah, kind of. 1362 01:01:09.969 --> 01:01:11.349 I want some sleep. 1363 01:01:12.929 --> 01:01:13.730 We all want more sleep. 1364 01:01:25.929 --> 01:01:28.639 This is David and John from the David McWilliams podcast 1365 01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:31.559 brought to you by Monzo, Ireland's newest bank. 1366 01:01:31.780 --> 01:01:34.300 Now we've mentioned more than once about the need for 1367 01:01:34.340 --> 01:01:37.019 more choice in Irish banking. 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