Bản chép lời đầy đủ của Historian Interview: Lt. Col Dave Grossman

the latrine head, whatever you 37 00:01:57.680 --> 00:01:59.379 want to call it, talking to the guy next to 38 00:01:59.420 --> 00:02:02.159 me before we were headed out there to present to 39 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:05.390 a Marine battalion ready to punch out to Iraq. and 40 00:02:05.430 --> 00:02:07.909 a voice comes out of one of the stalls and says, 41 00:02:07.930 --> 00:02:16.870 I know that voice. It's really cool that the audio 42 00:02:16.909 --> 00:02:19.990 books are a neat thing. I'm dropping a series of 43 00:02:20.050 --> 00:02:23.030 science fiction fantasy books right now, and I'm doing the 44 00:02:23.069 --> 00:02:25.500 audio narration on them and having a lot of fun. 45 00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:31.020 But it's unusual for the author to really narrate their 46 00:02:31.099 --> 00:02:34.560 own books. It's hard. It's a skill. It's a learned skill, 47 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:37.819 but as a speaker and a presenter, it's just something 48 00:02:37.860 --> 00:02:39.860 I wanted to do myself and it's worked out well. 49 00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:43.219 And so thank you. It's a big, close the loop 50 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:44.240 like that. That's fine. 51 00:02:44.259 --> 00:02:46.719 My, uh, my question is though, did you have somebody 52 00:02:46.780 --> 00:02:48.750 else edit it or did you edit it yourself? 53 00:02:49.729 --> 00:02:52.270 I'm a professional. I tell you, that's one place to 54 00:02:52.330 --> 00:02:55.379 spend money is, uh, having somebody else do the editing 55 00:02:55.439 --> 00:02:57.080 as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. 56 00:02:57.120 --> 00:02:59.039 Cause I mean, I've, I do that cause I do 57 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:03.180 everything myself still. And it's just like, I'll talk history. 58 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:06.139 I'll do the research. I'll, I'll read 50 hours a week. 59 00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:09.080 I don't care, but like, it's the editing that I'm like, ah. 60 00:03:09.819 --> 00:03:12.620 That's one place to put your money on a professional. And, 61 00:03:13.139 --> 00:03:16.099 and I got a great friend doing it. He's retired, uh, uh, 62 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:19.379 air force officer, got a studio in my little town 63 00:03:19.430 --> 00:03:22.650 here and, uh, that he's using AI a lot to 64 00:03:22.710 --> 00:03:24.759 help him, But it's still one of those things that 65 00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:27.060 I don't think AI will ever take over. It's just 66 00:03:27.099 --> 00:03:31.500 the craftsmanship of putting it together and being able to 67 00:03:31.539 --> 00:03:34.000 get the human inflection into the voice. You know, they 68 00:03:34.020 --> 00:03:37.060 can pick up your voice, but they've got a long 69 00:03:37.099 --> 00:03:39.210 way to go before AI takes that away from us, 70 00:03:39.270 --> 00:03:39.569 I think. 71 00:03:40.189 --> 00:03:42.849 Yeah, well, like, for me, it's always the paranoia is, like, 72 00:03:43.250 --> 00:03:46.789 what if I screwed up? Like, an editor can piece 73 00:03:46.849 --> 00:03:49.469 things together. He can take out, like, the dead noise. 74 00:03:49.509 --> 00:03:52.069 He can take out, like, the mouth noises in the background, but, like, 75 00:03:52.740 --> 00:03:55.439 if I screwed something up historically, like I have to, 76 00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:58.360 like sometimes I got to eliminate like entire paragraphs. Like 77 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:00.159 I have to do two or three minutes because I 78 00:04:00.819 --> 00:04:03.210 said the wrong year or I said the wrong nit, 79 00:04:03.250 --> 00:04:04.969 but like an editor would be like, yeah, it's fine. 80 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:07.330 And I got to try to like, like I've had 81 00:04:07.409 --> 00:04:09.409 times where I've had to like chop things from like 82 00:04:09.430 --> 00:04:12.610 the end of an episode. Like if I said, you know, 83 00:04:12.849 --> 00:04:15.590 the Persians instead of the Ottomans, I'd have to try 84 00:04:15.610 --> 00:04:17.949 to find some place where I said Ottomans and splice 85 00:04:18.009 --> 00:04:20.540 it in. But like a regular editor would, he's not 86 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:22.420 going to know I made a mistake. So that was 87 00:04:22.439 --> 00:04:24.410 always like the paranoia in the back of my head. 88 00:04:24.430 --> 00:04:26.850 Like I still have to do it myself. I had 89 00:04:26.870 --> 00:04:30.029 to sit here for five hours to edit this half 90 00:04:30.069 --> 00:04:30.889 hour episode. 91 00:04:30.910 --> 00:04:34.430 I think the average listener right now has no conception 92 00:04:34.449 --> 00:04:37.319 of the kind of work that goes into that dynamic. 93 00:04:37.379 --> 00:04:38.660 So it's a lot of fun. 94 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:41.439 That was definitely the biggest surprise for me, like going in. 95 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:45.189 Because I just, I famously just, one day decided to 96 00:04:45.250 --> 00:04:47.310 do the podcast. Like one day I was listening to 97 00:04:47.350 --> 00:04:48.910 them and I was like, I could do that. And 98 00:04:48.970 --> 00:04:51.730 two days later, the first episode came out and it 99 00:04:51.769 --> 00:04:54.870 was so bad that I permanently hit it from everywhere. 100 00:04:54.910 --> 00:04:57.529 I was like, we're going to start on season two, 101 00:04:57.589 --> 00:05:00.439 which isn't much better, but it's a little bit better 102 00:05:00.500 --> 00:05:05.639 than the previous one that I did. It makes me 103 00:05:05.699 --> 00:05:07.899 wonder though, like as an author, because I do it 104 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:10.680 all the time with episodes is like, I'll, I'll listen 105 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:12.240 back to it just to make sure I didn't screw 106 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:14.879 anything up. And I was like, ah, I forgot to 107 00:05:14.939 --> 00:05:17.839 do that. Like how many times, like how long after 108 00:05:17.899 --> 00:05:21.680 you publish a book, do you like wake up with nightmares? Like, man, 109 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:23.600 I

really should have done this. I should have put 110 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:26.220 this anecdote in there. I should have put this story. 111 00:05:26.860 --> 00:05:29.779 You know, it's, it's funny you say that because it's 112 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:36.050 even more so with the fiction. Because for me, you know, the, the, 113 00:05:36.089 --> 00:05:38.490 the whole, the, the whole author world, we could do 114 00:05:38.509 --> 00:05:42.579 a whole episode on, You know, I started in 1995. 115 00:05:42.579 --> 00:05:46.360 I had a Manhattan agent. My book has sold a 116 00:05:46.660 --> 00:05:50.720 million-odd copies, and On Killing has sold a million-odd copies 117 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:55.110 in eight different languages. And then I self-published my second 118 00:05:55.139 --> 00:05:57.810 book kind of from the beginning, and we got half 119 00:05:57.829 --> 00:06:02.110 a million self-published. We'd done everything in between. And my 120 00:06:02.170 --> 00:06:05.050 Manhattan agent, when I went to him with my science 121 00:06:05.089 --> 00:06:09.100 fiction fantasy series, said, Dave, everything's changed. It's completely broken. 122 00:06:10.050 --> 00:06:14.649 The agents as the guardians of the gate, the mainstream publishers, 123 00:06:15.790 --> 00:06:18.990 it's all broken. The local printer doing your local print 124 00:06:19.029 --> 00:06:24.399 run is broken. I mean, basically, there's something called the 125 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:30.139 long tail. And the idea is that once upon a time, 126 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:33.759 the biggest bookstore on the planet might have had 50,000 titles. 127 00:06:33.779 --> 00:06:36.990 I don't know. But everything from number 50,000 on just 128 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:42.290 Just doesn't exist. Can't be in the bookstores, backordered. But 129 00:06:42.529 --> 00:06:46.170 Amazon has more titles in the long tail from number 50,000 130 00:06:46.170 --> 00:06:50.670 to number 6 million. There's actually more titles in there 131 00:06:50.769 --> 00:06:54.800 than there is in all your bestsellers put together. And 132 00:06:54.899 --> 00:06:59.079 so there's never been a better time to be an author. 133 00:06:59.139 --> 00:07:04.720 Have AI transcribe your podcast, put them together, get them 134 00:07:04.779 --> 00:07:07.209 out there as a book. There's never been a better time. 135 00:07:08.310 --> 00:07:15.139 my local printer, KDP, Kindle Direct Press, KDP, this is Kindle's, 136 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:19.199 you know, mass dynamic, they can, they can print on 137 00:07:19.259 --> 00:07:23.170 demand my, my, this sci-fi fantasy book, they can print 138 00:07:23.189 --> 00:07:27.110 it on demand and mail it for less money than 139 00:07:27.149 --> 00:07:30.589 my local printer can print for a print run of 5,000 copies, 140 00:07:30.610 --> 00:07:36.550 so It's like everybody loses. My local printer loses. The 141 00:07:36.589 --> 00:07:40.290 bookstore loses. Who wins? Amazon wins. And the author wins. 142 00:07:40.449 --> 00:07:44.209 And the readers win. Because we've got this huge crowdsourcing 143 00:07:44.310 --> 00:07:48.250 out there with the review system. And there's never been 144 00:07:48.300 --> 00:07:50.680 a better time to be an author. I'm making literally 145 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:55.259 10 times more money off of every book being sold now. 146 00:07:55.810 --> 00:07:58.430 than I did. I mean, I've sold roughly a million 147 00:07:58.509 --> 00:08:01.649 copies from the beginning. It doesn't, not that much, you know, 148 00:08:01.790 --> 00:08:05.290 added up over all these years. But if I'd have 149 00:08:05.310 --> 00:08:08.230 made as much money off of those books as I'm 150 00:08:08.269 --> 00:08:11.379 making off of books now, I'd be in a lot 151 00:08:11.420 --> 00:08:16.180 better shape. So it's a crazy time. And I tell you, Neil, 152 00:08:16.220 --> 00:08:19.079 just get those things transcribed. Once upon a time, you 153 00:08:19.100 --> 00:08:21.740 had to pay some lady in Malaysia who you found 154 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:25.160 on Uplink to do the transcription work today. get them 155 00:08:25.220 --> 00:08:29.959 transcribed and get them out there. But there's never been 156 00:08:29.980 --> 00:08:32.710 a better time. But the place where you, it's kind 157 00:08:32.730 --> 00:08:38.090 of carved in stone. I can update what KDP is 158 00:08:38.149 --> 00:08:40.690 printing out, print on demand. I can update the Kindle, 159 00:08:41.289 --> 00:08:43.690 but the audio book is where it's locked in stone. 160 00:08:44.649 --> 00:08:47.110 And I've got alpha readers that are coming up and 161 00:08:47.309 --> 00:08:50.889 having great ideas and great fixes and boom, Once that 162 00:08:50.970 --> 00:08:53.529 audio books out, there's not much I can do about it. 163 00:08:53.649 --> 00:08:55.730 And there's this great sense. I wish I could have 164 00:08:55.750 --> 00:08:58.289 put this in there, but just save it for the 165 00:08:58.330 --> 00:09:00.389 next book and rock on. Yeah. 166 00:09:00.429 --> 00:09:02.230 Cause I have that all the time because I do 167 00:09:02.330 --> 00:09:04.549 all my shows without a script. Like I'll just sort 168 00:09:04.570 --> 00:09:07.049 of like dry rehearse it throughout the week. And then, 169 00:09:07.629 --> 00:09:09.860 you know, it's like a snowflake, whatever I do that 170 00:09:09.929 --> 00:09:12.320 day is that, and then like, I'll be driving like 171 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:15.019 two days later. It's like, Oh, I forgot that joke 172 00:09:15.059 --> 00:09:17.700 that I wrote on Tuesday or this analogy that I 173 00:09:17.740 --> 00:09:19.840 put here. And it's like, Do I go back and 174 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:21.980 put it in? And I'm always like, yeah, I'm going 175 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.600 to do that. And I never do. But, you know, 176 00:09:24.980 --> 00:09:26.340 the idea is always there. 177 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:30.320 Set it up for next episode, next

book. Always another opportunity. 178 00:09:30.340 --> 00:09:32.740 You know, you're a young guy. How old are you, bro? 179 00:09:33.379 --> 00:09:38.720 I'm a year older than your book. I was, I'm 32. 180 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:40.480 So I was born in 94. 181 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:42.700 So I just turned 70. And, you know, Will and 182 00:09:42.740 --> 00:09:45.059 Nelson is 92 and on tour. And that's who I 183 00:09:45.100 --> 00:09:47.350 want to be when I grow up. I mean, I 184 00:09:47.370 --> 00:09:50.179 truly have a 20 year plan. But you've got the 185 00:09:50.220 --> 00:09:53.309 majority of your productive adult life still in front of you. 186 00:09:53.350 --> 00:09:54.970 And it's hard for a guy like you to wrap 187 00:09:54.990 --> 00:09:57.610 your mind around that. But the vast majority of your 188 00:09:57.649 --> 00:09:59.820 productive adult life is still in front of you. Look 189 00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:03.559 what you've done, man. It's incredible. Uh, what's next on the, 190 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:06.559 on the hit list for, uh, for, for, for Neil? What's, 191 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:08.080 what do you, what do you think has come down 192 00:10:08.100 --> 00:10:08.440 the road? 193 00:10:09.059 --> 00:10:12.500 I mean, I've been slowly working on, uh, my series 194 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:17.049 on the first world war. Um, I mean, at my peak, 195 00:10:17.129 --> 00:10:20.049 I was doing these like once a week. Looking back, 196 00:10:20.129 --> 00:10:22.330 I have no idea how I managed to do that. 197 00:10:22.389 --> 00:10:26.250 But like these days, you know, between work and, you know, 198 00:10:26.309 --> 00:10:31.769 playing 200 plus softball games a week or a year and, 199 00:10:31.909 --> 00:10:34.370 you know, everything else I got going on in my life, 200 00:10:34.429 --> 00:10:37.220 I don't do them as often. You got a life. 201 00:10:37.289 --> 00:10:38.649 What's work? What do you do for work? 202 00:10:40.179 --> 00:10:42.419 I work for a general contractor. We do a lot 203 00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:45.049 of like office remodels. Like we'll go in and Well, 204 00:10:45.090 --> 00:10:48.129 since COVID, it's been great because all these offices are downsizing. 205 00:10:48.710 --> 00:10:50.909 So we'll go in and split up offices into like 206 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:53.600 three or four different places for the property manager. 207 00:10:54.059 --> 00:10:56.799 So their apartments is setting up apartments now? 208 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:00.700 It's just like regular, like it's mostly commercial office spaces. 209 00:11:00.860 --> 00:11:03.360 So we just, you know, stand up walls. We redo 210 00:11:03.379 --> 00:11:05.860 the HVAC, the electrical, all that stuff. 211 00:11:06.620 --> 00:11:08.960 Do you rehearse the podcast in your mind while you're 212 00:11:08.980 --> 00:11:09.480 doing all of that? 213 00:11:09.830 --> 00:11:12.110 Kind of. I mean, technically, we're not allowed to listen 214 00:11:12.129 --> 00:11:14.509 to anything at work, but when nobody's watching, I got 215 00:11:14.529 --> 00:11:16.409 my earbud in, and that's where I listen to most 216 00:11:16.429 --> 00:11:19.870 of my audiobooks. That's why I like them so much, 217 00:11:19.889 --> 00:11:22.080 because I can work most of the work I do, 218 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:24.740 unless I'm doing a lot of math. I can just 219 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:27.220 sit there and listen. I'll usually go through one or 220 00:11:27.259 --> 00:11:29.720 two audiobooks a week, depending on how long they are. 221 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:32.620 You know, this is... Just stop and think about that. 222 00:11:33.019 --> 00:11:37.340 The idea of you... doing manual mindless, you know, kind 223 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:39.399 of hard labor all day long. I wouldn't call it 224 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:43.480 mindless by any stretch. But the fact that you are 225 00:11:44.039 --> 00:11:47.779 processing information while you do it, this is a human revolution. 226 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:51.139 So we've got at the same time that we were 227 00:11:51.220 --> 00:11:57.039 just destroying the, we've got, we've got 30 second clips 228 00:11:57.159 --> 00:12:00.179 and we've got, we've got all these things that are 229 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:03.860 destroying our attention span and, We have this other segment 230 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:08.080 of our society that's listening to this long-form podcast. And 231 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:11.000 I think it's one of the most positive things happening 232 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:15.690 in our civilization today is the people producing them and 233 00:12:15.710 --> 00:12:18.629 the people listening to them. It just gives us hope 234 00:12:18.710 --> 00:12:22.389 for our civilization, for people to go beyond a 30-second 235 00:12:22.769 --> 00:12:27.350 clip of a cute cat doing something stupid watched by 236 00:12:27.350 --> 00:12:28.309 10 million people. 237 00:12:29.059 --> 00:12:31.019 I mean, I hope so. I mean, like they always say, 238 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:34.679 like the pendulum of society swings back and forth. So hopefully, 239 00:12:34.740 --> 00:12:38.039 you know, we get to a certain point, either, you know, 240 00:12:38.059 --> 00:12:41.159 we learn how to use AI productively or, you know, 241 00:12:41.210 --> 00:12:43.909 we have like the Terminator franchise and, you know, it 242 00:12:44.029 --> 00:12:47.509 kills us. You know, hopefully if we can get past that, 243 00:12:47.590 --> 00:12:49.830 like we can swing back to like people that actually 244 00:12:49.870 --> 00:12:52.429 want to learn more than just, you know, what a 245 00:12:52.450 --> 00:12:55.490 YouTube short or like what they've seen on Instagram. But 246 00:12:55.909 --> 00:12:59.799 you never know that there's so much, Especially history. Maybe 247 00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:02.139 it's just because I see more history because of my algorithm. 248 00:13:02.220 --> 00:13:06.600 But there's so much

history slop out there. Every time 249 00:13:06.659 --> 00:13:10.460 I hear that disembodied voice, I'm like, all right, next video. 250 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:11.679 Next video. 251 00:13:11.870 --> 00:13:16.110 It's the worst. I hate that voice. But I think 252 00:13:16.129 --> 00:13:19.450 we've got to think in terms of multiple pendulums going 253 00:13:19.490 --> 00:13:20.250 at the same time. 254 00:13:20.710 --> 00:13:21.309 Oh, for sure. 255 00:13:21.570 --> 00:13:23.429 When they get in alignment. You know, we've got the 256 00:13:23.470 --> 00:13:27.110 pendulum that's listening to long-form entertainment, and then we've got 257 00:13:27.149 --> 00:13:31.190 the other mindless aspect of it. But let me lay 258 00:13:31.230 --> 00:13:33.009 a foundation on where I'd like to go with this. 259 00:13:33.029 --> 00:13:36.490 You know, sitting in my lap right now is Charlie. 260 00:13:36.509 --> 00:13:39.350 I don't know if you've got a video aspect of this, 261 00:13:39.389 --> 00:13:43.070 but Charlie is my service dog. My ears are shot out. 262 00:13:43.230 --> 00:13:44.809 He lets me know when the alarm goes off in 263 00:13:44.830 --> 00:13:46.509 the morning, and he's a good guy. He works for 264 00:13:46.529 --> 00:13:46.809 a living. 265 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:48.889 Your tinnitus is not service-related. 266 00:13:49.389 --> 00:13:49.700 It is. 267 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:50.480 It is. 268 00:13:50.549 --> 00:13:53.220 Wow. Not according to the VA, I'm sure. That's a 269 00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:55.700 big meme that I've seen around that. Every time someone's like, 270 00:13:55.759 --> 00:13:58.580 my ears are ringing. Oh, there's someone in the VA 271 00:13:58.620 --> 00:14:01.919 in the background. Your tinnitus is not service-related. 272 00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:06.679 Mine is. But I think what we've got to think 273 00:14:06.700 --> 00:14:09.960 about is this. Look, I've watched one dog. She had 274 00:14:09.980 --> 00:14:14.120 a big old lab. She had a 15-year-old Labrador retriever 275 00:14:14.179 --> 00:14:16.970 sitting at my feet. And she's got the most vivid 276 00:14:17.009 --> 00:14:20.080 dreams I've ever seen a dog have. she talks in 277 00:14:20.100 --> 00:14:22.700 her dreams all the time, and dogs always do that, 278 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:27.299 but here's the thing, what do dogs dream about, right, 279 00:14:27.350 --> 00:14:31.990 you watch them, they never dream about sex, you don't 280 00:14:32.029 --> 00:14:35.289 see them, they almost never dream about food, you don't 281 00:14:35.330 --> 00:14:39.960 see them munching, they dream about hunting, and it's what 282 00:14:40.009 --> 00:14:43.299 we're wired to do, and I wrote a book on hunting, 283 00:14:43.379 --> 00:14:46.320 and I commend it to your attention, and it's It 284 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:48.779 covers every aspect of hunting that it just kind of 285 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:53.570 bores people. We almost overdid ourselves because it talks about 286 00:14:53.610 --> 00:14:57.730 the ecology and the ethics and the economy and every 287 00:14:57.809 --> 00:15:04.049 other aspect of it. But the thing about combat is 288 00:15:05.289 --> 00:15:12.960 that it's intimate. My story begins in 1974. Private Grossman 289 00:15:13.029 --> 00:15:17.700 staggers into the United States Army, 82nd Airborne Division. We 290 00:15:17.740 --> 00:15:20.740 have Vietnam vets all around us. And we wanted to 291 00:15:20.779 --> 00:15:23.519 know what combat was going to be like. And they 292 00:15:23.539 --> 00:15:28.080 wouldn't say. And I realized it's like this taboo topic. 293 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:33.610 And so it's very, very much like asking about sex. 294 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:35.570 You know, how many people you killed? How many women 295 00:15:35.590 --> 00:15:38.090 you had sex with? You know, I I mean, you know, 296 00:15:38.129 --> 00:15:41.629 just if you ask, you know, how's his sex life? 297 00:15:41.669 --> 00:15:43.389 How are you getting it on? You're not going to 298 00:15:43.409 --> 00:15:48.110 tell people. But fast forward 10 years, and Captain Grossman, 299 00:15:48.230 --> 00:15:54.139 West Point psychology professor, Army Ranger, and I'm interviewing World 300 00:15:54.179 --> 00:15:56.840 War II veterans or Vietnam veterans, and they tell me. 301 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:00.679 And they tell me things that they say, I've never 302 00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:04.549 told anybody about this before. And you really get to 303 00:16:04.570 --> 00:16:08.389 the heart of what's actually happening in combat. And I'll 304 00:16:08.429 --> 00:16:10.970 tell you, at the very biological level, at the very 305 00:16:11.029 --> 00:16:14.870 biological level, one of the things that's happening is people 306 00:16:14.909 --> 00:16:19.629 are pissing and crapping themselves a lot. You know, I'm 307 00:16:19.669 --> 00:16:23.009 in a boxing family. My little brother was a North 308 00:16:23.029 --> 00:16:26.860 Dakota state champion, Golden Gloves. You know, when a boxer 309 00:16:26.899 --> 00:16:30.919 gets knocked out, they lose finger and bladder control. They 310 00:16:30.940 --> 00:16:34.899 crap themselves. They piss themselves. Anybody knocked unconscious. If you're 311 00:16:34.940 --> 00:16:37.759 out cold, boom. You no longer have sphincter control. You 312 00:16:37.779 --> 00:16:40.159 don't have bladder control. Of course you don't. You're unconscious. 313 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:43.009 And they stand them up. They wrap them in a robe. 314 00:16:43.029 --> 00:16:46.309 They walk them on out. And you don't see the crap, 315 00:16:46.490 --> 00:16:48.350 you know, dribbling down their legs. They get in the 316 00:16:48.409 --> 00:16:50.309 shower and they hose it off. They keep on going. 317 00:16:50.330 --> 00:16:53.570 But it's like this hidden secret. Of course it happens. 318 00:16:53.610 --> 00:16:56.649 You're unconscious. You've lost bladder control. You're going to piss yourself. 319

00:16:56.710 --> 00:16:59.309 Of course it happens. But we never talk about that. 320 00:16:59.350 --> 00:17:05.309 I think almost everybody under concussions, almost everybody that has 321 00:17:05.410 --> 00:17:09.009 a TBI to one degree, a large portion of the 322 00:17:09.049 --> 00:17:11.779 people with TBI, there's a very good chance they've pissed themselves. 323 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:16.519 And I've got this great narrative from World War, it's 324 00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:20.940 a Canadian guy, landed on, I think it's in Anzio Beach, 325 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:24.660 and he's a replacement, and he crawls into Foxhole, and 326 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:30.589 they're under artillery fire, And the Sarge in the foxhole says, shit, 327 00:17:31.009 --> 00:17:34.009 shit some more. And he said, what's wrong? He thinks 328 00:17:34.029 --> 00:17:35.650 the Sarge has been shot. He said, well, he said, 329 00:17:35.690 --> 00:17:38.910 I piss myself. He said, I always piss myself. And 330 00:17:38.930 --> 00:17:41.779 the guy said he wasn't apologizing. And he said, I 331 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:44.259 felt some wet and I felt down there. And I said, Sarge, 332 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:48.980 I piss too. And he says, welcome to war. And 333 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:52.710 the concussions and the dynamics and But the thing to 334 00:17:52.750 --> 00:17:55.970 understand is this, I do a lot of work in hospitals, 335 00:17:56.069 --> 00:17:57.869 and I do a lot of work with cops. I 336 00:17:57.890 --> 00:18:01.630 think I'm the only person ever to be certified to 337 00:18:01.690 --> 00:18:05.150 train police in all 50 states. And that's how many 338 00:18:05.369 --> 00:18:10.970 traffic accident victims, I ask in the ER, I ask 339 00:18:11.190 --> 00:18:15.380 state troopers, how many traffic accident victims have crapped themselves? 340 00:18:16.099 --> 00:18:18.730 How many have pissed themselves? I don't know. Almost everybody's 341 00:18:18.789 --> 00:18:21.329 pissed themselves. And if there's a load in the lower intestines, 342 00:18:21.349 --> 00:18:30.599 they probably crap themselves. And people are devastated. I'm talking lifelong, humiliated, shattered, devastated. 343 00:18:30.619 --> 00:18:33.319 Because the last time it happened, you were three years old. 344 00:18:33.700 --> 00:18:36.380 And it was a really big deal. And so when 345 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:40.220 you lose bowel and bladder control, you're tapping back into 346 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:42.099 something that happened when you were three years old. And 347 00:18:42.140 --> 00:18:45.029 I tell people, I tell everybody, you look at them 348 00:18:45.309 --> 00:18:47.849 and you tell them. You're a state trooper, you're an 349 00:18:47.950 --> 00:18:52.700 ER technician, or you're an ambulance tech. You look at them, 350 00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:58.279 you tell them, that's your body's natural response. It happens 351 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:01.720 all the time. Don't worry about it. You can literally 352 00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:06.349 save somebody from a lifetime of shame and despair, but 353 00:19:06.369 --> 00:19:09.289 just say that's your body's natural response. Happens all the time. 354 00:19:09.309 --> 00:19:10.930 Don't worry about it. So when we talk about the 355 00:19:10.970 --> 00:19:16.359 body's natural response, One of the most fundamental biological dynamics 356 00:19:16.460 --> 00:19:21.220 of all is the response to gunpowder weapons. And I 357 00:19:21.299 --> 00:19:26.089 ask hunters. I've got an audience of 100-odd people. I've 358 00:19:26.109 --> 00:19:29.670 been doing this full-time since 1998 when I retired. And 359 00:19:30.230 --> 00:19:33.470 I'm in this constant feedback loop. When people come back 360 00:19:33.529 --> 00:19:35.230 and say, here's what it was like for me, here's 361 00:19:35.269 --> 00:19:37.809 what happened to me. Just nobody in human history has 362 00:19:37.849 --> 00:19:41.900 had that opportunity. You know, we got the GWAT, we 363 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.869 got cops, we got everybody who's out there coming and 364 00:19:44.910 --> 00:19:48.089 giving me this feedback loop. And all of a sudden, 365 00:19:48.130 --> 00:19:50.839 it's okay to talk about it. It's like sex, again, 366 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:55.839 very intimate. But one of the most fundamental dynamics, how 367 00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:59.980 many of y'all are hunters out there? You ever notice something? 368 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:02.420 You fire your hunting rifle one time at the range 369 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:05.660 without hearing protection. Your ears will ring for the rest 370 00:20:05.700 --> 00:20:09.160 of the day. You go to shoot a deer. It's 371 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:13.619 a still, calm morning. Boom. People a mile away hear 372 00:20:13.660 --> 00:20:17.000 the shot. Hunter, what do you hear? Nothing. And they 373 00:20:17.019 --> 00:20:17.599 all go like this. 374 00:20:17.859 --> 00:20:19.000 Nothing. Nothing. 375 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:26.599 And your ears don't ring. And nobody, nobody, I mean, 376 00:20:26.859 --> 00:20:28.920 we live in this little, nobody went back to the 377 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:31.779 campfire and said, you know, I didn't hear the shot. 378 00:20:32.180 --> 00:20:34.559 And my ears didn't ring. And usually they don't feel 379 00:20:34.579 --> 00:20:39.099 the recoil. And how could we have had 500 freaking 380 00:20:39.140 --> 00:20:42.920 years of gunpowder combat and not let people know the 381 00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:47.529 most basic, fundamental, biological thing? Like, you probably won't hear 382 00:20:47.549 --> 00:20:50.349 the shot. And your ears probably won't. And by the way, 383 00:20:50.410 --> 00:20:53.200 you are still getting hearing loss. The shutout is in 384 00:20:53.220 --> 00:20:56.759 the auditory nerve. The ear is still being hammered. wear 385 00:20:56.819 --> 00:20:58.799 hearing protection when you hunt, you'd be a devil. 386 00:20:58.940 -->

00:21:03.240 Well, in my experience, at least hunting and at the range, 387 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:05.960 it's not your gun that makes you go deaf. It's 388 00:21:06.009 --> 00:21:08.910 the guy next to you. Cause like my dad and 389 00:21:09.009 --> 00:21:11.230 I have hunted together for years. And like, if we're 390 00:21:11.250 --> 00:21:14.849 both shooting at something away from us, we're both fine. 391 00:21:14.910 --> 00:21:18.049 But as soon as someone crosses that 45 degree angle 392 00:21:18.069 --> 00:21:21.480 and you get that, that sonic burst next to your eardrum, 393 00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:23.220 that's when your hearing goes out. 394 00:21:23.420 --> 00:21:23.740 Amen. 395 00:21:23.859 --> 00:21:24.359 Amen. Amen. 396 00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:26.829 I'll never forget. I was, uh, the one range I 397 00:21:26.910 --> 00:21:28.970 used to go to, they had in, well, before they 398 00:21:29.009 --> 00:21:31.450 built the outdoor range, all they had was the indoor one. 399 00:21:31.930 --> 00:21:34.029 And there was this guy shooting, I think it must've 400 00:21:34.049 --> 00:21:37.190 been either a 30-06 or a 308, some like big 401 00:21:37.329 --> 00:21:42.099 rifle caliber. He's two lanes over. I have the mushable 402 00:21:42.500 --> 00:21:46.700 ear protections and noise canceling headphones on, and I could 403 00:21:46.779 --> 00:21:50.779 still feel the pressure change in my ear. Like And that's, 404 00:21:50.980 --> 00:21:53.119 I mean, 7.62 is one of the most classic, like, 405 00:21:53.180 --> 00:21:56.259 battle rifle calibers there is out there,. 30, whatever it was. 406 00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:56.640 Yes. 407 00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:00.619 So now imagine that. Imagine how loud that is. And 408 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:05.089 then realize that you, when you're shooting, don't hear it. 409 00:22:05.740 --> 00:22:08.460 And here's, you know, we talk about buck fever. We 410 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:11.829 talk about when you have your first kill. And I 411 00:22:11.869 --> 00:22:15.730 tell you, I believe at a biological level, when you 412 00:22:15.750 --> 00:22:19.410 have your first kill, it's very much like your first orgasm. 413 00:22:20.309 --> 00:22:23.710 It's that biological. It's that powerful. It's that profound. And 414 00:22:23.750 --> 00:22:29.630 it's intimate. It's intimate. And so, again, dogs don't dream 415 00:22:29.710 --> 00:22:32.569 about having sex. They don't dream about eating. They dream 416 00:22:32.849 --> 00:22:36.529 about hunting. They're always hunting in their dreams. They're always 417 00:22:36.670 --> 00:22:42.069 woofing and chasing. And we're the same way. And so, 418 00:22:43.269 --> 00:22:46.859 from a hunting perspective, if you collapse the existence of 419 00:22:46.930 --> 00:22:51.500 our species down to 24 hours, I think it's up 420 00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:54.900 to the last six minutes or so. All we did 421 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:59.160 was hunt. You know, the existence of our species collapsed. 422 00:22:59.180 --> 00:23:03.369 You know, the whole agricultural revolution began six minutes or 423 00:23:03.369 --> 00:23:05.789 12 minutes or whatever it was ago. And the rest 424 00:23:05.829 --> 00:23:07.750 of the time, all we did was hunt. But we 425 00:23:07.789 --> 00:23:12.089 were always in the middle of the food chain. And 426 00:23:12.150 --> 00:23:16.230 here's the key. We have the forward-set eyes of a hunter. 427 00:23:17.029 --> 00:23:20.329 We have the gripping fangs of a predator. but we 428 00:23:20.390 --> 00:23:26.289 have the side set ears of a grass eater. And 429 00:23:26.329 --> 00:23:29.200 we have the chisel teeth of a crap yourself, run 430 00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:32.019 like hell rabbit. And the grinding molars of a grass 431 00:23:32.099 --> 00:23:34.180 eater that says, I don't have to outrun the predator. 432 00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:37.200 I just have to outrun the slowest person in the herd. 433 00:23:38.049 --> 00:23:43.250 And so we've got this capacity to survive as predator 434 00:23:43.390 --> 00:23:46.079 or prey. You see, we've We've always been in the 435 00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:48.740 middle of the food chain. Nobody can deny that things 436 00:23:48.779 --> 00:23:51.619 that hunted us and things that we hunted. But the 437 00:23:51.660 --> 00:23:57.599 greatest achievement of us as a biological organism is to 438 00:23:57.660 --> 00:24:02.940 hunt and to successfully hunt. But the crazy thing that 439 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:05.450 people understand when we try to apply that to war 440 00:24:06.470 --> 00:24:11.990 is this incredible resistance against killing our own kind. And 441 00:24:12.029 --> 00:24:14.109 people say, oh, how do you explain this? How do 442 00:24:14.130 --> 00:24:17.750 you explain that? Well, just right now, we're a nation 443 00:24:17.990 --> 00:24:22.319 of a third of a billion people. On any given day, 444 00:24:22.930 --> 00:24:26.180 there's a little over 30 murders. So the numbers work 445 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:30.839 out really well. It comes out to 30 out of 446 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.500 a third of a billion. That comes out to 10 447 00:24:33.500 --> 00:24:37.720 out of every 100 million or one out of every 448 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:43.869 10 million So out of every 10 million people out there, divorce, infidelity, layoff, 449 00:24:43.970 --> 00:24:48.059 traffic accidents, out of every 10 million people out there, 450 00:24:49.019 --> 00:24:56.720 there's three of them that are killing. And my big 451 00:24:56.740 --> 00:25:00.579 question is, explain that. Explain that. Explain all the people 452 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:03.950 that aren't killing out there. And so the big secret 453 00:25:03.990 --> 00:25:06.859 of warfare is that we bring all these people together, 454 00:25:06.940 --> 00:25:09.099 we give them guns, we train them, we send them off. 455 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:12.079 And in World War II, we found out an awful 456 00:25:12.140 -->

00:25:15.240 lot of them wouldn't pull the trigger. And one of 457 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:18.839 the weirdest historical dynamics you've ever seen is this whole 458 00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:24.299 attack on SLA Marshall after he was dead. So he 459 00:25:24.339 --> 00:25:27.000 made up all that stuff. Why would he do that? 460 00:25:27.079 --> 00:25:29.900 And he lied to Eisenhower. And all these guys in 461 00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:32.349 World War II... believed him, and all these guys, and 462 00:25:32.470 --> 00:25:37.259 I've got a great thing from McCall's magazine, Collier's magazine, 463 00:25:37.819 --> 00:25:41.240 from 1950, an article about how half of our people 464 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:44.579 won't shoot, and they've got all these case studies and narratives, 465 00:25:44.700 --> 00:25:47.660 and this is a magazine with a distribution of three 466 00:25:47.700 --> 00:25:51.539 million people, and it's accepted, and then the guy dies, 467 00:25:51.619 --> 00:25:54.069 and oh, no, no, he made all that up, and 468 00:25:54.130 --> 00:25:56.809 so it was one of the weird historical dynamics, but 469 00:25:57.799 --> 00:26:00.839 However you cut it, we were having a hard time 470 00:26:00.900 --> 00:26:05.119 getting people to actually pull the trigger. Crusade weapons like 471 00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:09.130 machine guns are almost always fired, and key weapons like 472 00:26:09.190 --> 00:26:13.369 a BAR or a flamethrower, you know the drill, you've 473 00:26:13.410 --> 00:26:16.589 read my book, they usually fire. If a leader stands 474 00:26:16.670 --> 00:26:18.970 over his shoulder and demands he fire, but left to 475 00:26:18.990 --> 00:26:21.799 their own devices, the individual wouldn't pull the trigger. 476 00:26:22.220 --> 00:26:24.859 Well, one thing I, uh, I found interesting, like throughout 477 00:26:24.900 --> 00:26:26.799 your book is, you know, cause I, you know, spent 478 00:26:27.059 --> 00:26:29.759 years hunting and like the, my dad and I, we 479 00:26:29.819 --> 00:26:31.160 used to hunt with a club that we used to 480 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:35.430 push deer. And you know, when you were talking about 481 00:26:35.470 --> 00:26:38.029 like your, your firing figures and like guys who like 482 00:26:38.089 --> 00:26:41.569 shoot high or whatever, and like the whole buck fever argument, 483 00:26:41.589 --> 00:26:43.950 I found it interesting that there may have been guys 484 00:26:43.990 --> 00:26:46.460 that did want to actually shoot at the enemy. They 485 00:26:46.500 --> 00:26:50.079 were just so excited. They shot high and then, and 486 00:26:50.099 --> 00:26:52.420 then looking, cause like there's been, like there was one 487 00:26:52.460 --> 00:26:54.369 time we were, we were lined up, we were getting 488 00:26:54.390 --> 00:26:57.230 ready to start a drive. So you got 15 guys 489 00:26:57.289 --> 00:26:59.490 all lined up in the woods, all, you know, 50 490 00:26:59.490 --> 00:27:02.049 yards or so from each other.

Our deer is running 491 00:27:02.089 --> 00:27:03.890 through the brush in front of us. And he finally 492 00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:06.779 breaks out. We joked later that they picked a weak 493 00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:10.299 link because they P picked the guy to run to that. 494 00:27:11.980 --> 00:27:15.299 So Judd, yeah. Judd throws his gun up, fires three 495 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:17.950 shells off. And like, he's got a semi auto. All 496 00:27:18.009 --> 00:27:19.930 three of them are like taken off the tops of 497 00:27:19.950 --> 00:27:22.140 the trees and, But yet to this day, he swears 498 00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:24.019 up and down, oh, I hit that deer. Oh, I 499 00:27:24.059 --> 00:27:27.759 hit that deer. And meanwhile, half the gang watched him 500 00:27:27.829 --> 00:27:31.240 just completely whiff with three air balls and not even– 501 00:27:31.849 --> 00:27:34.809 the buck probably didn't even hear the shot going over 502 00:27:34.849 --> 00:27:36.150 it was so far over his head. 503 00:27:36.170 --> 00:27:38.950 Instinctively knew the weak link. 504 00:27:39.470 --> 00:27:41.750 Yeah. Well, because it's funny because he ran down the 505 00:27:41.789 --> 00:27:44.529 line like three times like in the brush and then 506 00:27:44.630 --> 00:27:47.349 broke out exactly at the one guy who was the 507 00:27:47.390 --> 00:27:48.829 worst shot in the entire class. 508 00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:52.940 But the thing about Marshall's data is not that they missed. 509 00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:54.799 It was that they didn't fire at all. They never 510 00:27:54.839 --> 00:27:56.980 pulled the trigger. And they would tell you so. They 511 00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.680 would tell you so. And then you've got that portion 512 00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:01.779 that did pull the trigger. And the question is, how 513 00:28:01.819 --> 00:28:05.170 many of them were firing high? How many of it 514 00:28:05.230 --> 00:28:08.650 was intentional, just some kind of a spasmodic resistance? How 515 00:28:08.690 --> 00:28:11.910 much of it was, like you said, excitement? And here's 516 00:28:11.950 --> 00:28:15.309 a guy who sincerely wanted to hit the deer. The 517 00:28:15.349 --> 00:28:16.990 excitement of the moment pulled him off. 518 00:28:17.569 --> 00:28:22.089 Speaking of your book, this happened to be scrolling through 519 00:28:22.130 --> 00:28:26.329 my YouTube shorts and I found something, a video from 520 00:28:26.369 --> 00:28:29.369 this one sketch group from years ago that I saw 521 00:28:29.390 --> 00:28:32.109 at the time, but after rereading your book before this 522 00:28:32.670 --> 00:28:35.089 and the whole thing you did on the firing squad, 523 00:28:35.369 --> 00:28:36.509 I think you'll really enjoy this. 524 00:28:36.750 --> 00:28:38.309 I'll pull it up real quick. 525 00:28:41.609 --> 00:28:45.509 Mr. Frank Rosenthorpe, you have been found guilty. 526 00:28:46.569 --> 00:28:47.180 Can you hear the video? 527 00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:48.869 I got it. I got it. Rock and roll. 528 00:28:49.029 --> 00:28:52.069 Of treason, and it has been decided that you should 529 00:28:52.109 --> 00:28:54.970 be put to death by firing squad. 530 00:28:55.430 --> 00:28:56.990 No! 531 00:28:57.009 --> 00:29:01.529 Shut up! Now, do you have any last words? 532 00:29:01.950 --> 00:29:03.990 Yes, just three. 533 00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:12.569 Okay, moving on. 534 00:29:13.539 --> 00:29:16.259 Firing squad each of you has been handed a rifle 535 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:17.700 and only one of these rifles. 536 00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:18.960 Is there an actual bullet? 537 00:29:19.309 --> 00:29:21.140 This is so that no one will know who actually 538 00:29:21.180 --> 00:29:23.569 fires the shot and that none of you will have 539 00:29:23.609 --> 00:29:26.650 to bear the weight of guilt on their conscience understood 540 00:29:27.930 --> 00:29:31.069 All right now on my mark you will aim at 541 00:29:31.109 --> 00:29:36.990 the criminal and fire if you dare shut up All 542 00:29:37.009 --> 00:29:40.269 right ready air Aim. 543 00:29:41.539 --> 00:29:41.910 Fire. 544 00:29:44.579 --> 00:29:47.519 Okay, nobody hit him. You have to aim, all right? 545 00:29:47.559 --> 00:29:50.339 Whoever has the bullet didn't hit him. Don't assume you 546 00:29:50.380 --> 00:29:52.200 don't have the bullet. You still need to aim. 547 00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:53.160 I was aiming. 548 00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:58.339 Well, aim better, okay? Robertson. Paying attention, all right? Hey, 549 00:29:58.349 --> 00:30:00.990 why'd you single me out? No reason, no reason. 550 00:30:01.089 --> 00:30:02.630 I have the bullet, don't I? 551 00:30:02.710 --> 00:30:04.630 I'm glad I didn't. 552 00:30:04.730 --> 00:30:06.319 I can't bear that guilt. 553 00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:11.240 Give me the gun back. Give me the guns back. 554 00:30:11.259 --> 00:30:11.779 All right. 555 00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:13.900 I'm shuffling the guns, shuffling the gun. 556 00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:16.789 That way we don't know who has what gun. It's 557 00:30:16.849 --> 00:30:18.529 all going to be shuffled. All right, here's your gun. 558 00:30:19.190 --> 00:30:21.450 Here's your gun. And here's your gun. 559 00:30:21.609 --> 00:30:22.150 It's that one. 560 00:30:22.670 --> 00:30:27.130 I watched it. Give me the gun. Give me the 561 00:30:27.150 --> 00:30:29.869 gun back. Give me the gun. All right, don't watch 562 00:30:29.930 --> 00:30:33.690 this time. I'm shuffling. No one can see me. Shuffle, shuffle, shuffle. 563 00:30:34.059 --> 00:30:37.059 You men, free me and tie him to the post, 564 00:30:37.339 --> 00:30:41.619 and I shall make the king. Shut up! All right, 565 00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:45.299 here's your gun. Here's your gun. Here's your gun. Now, let's... 566 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:47.619 Don't look in there! Give me that. All right, now 567 00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:49.890 you have this one, and you have this one. All right. 568 00:30:50.009 --> 00:30:50.589 Was it the

one? 569 00:30:50.789 --> 00:30:51.329 No, you're good. 570 00:30:51.970 --> 00:30:54.049 That means I probably have the one. No, it doesn't. 571 00:30:54.109 --> 00:30:56.339 It means either you have it or he has it. 572 00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:57.140 I'm not going to aim. 573 00:30:57.460 --> 00:30:58.000 You have to. 574 00:31:03.269 --> 00:31:04.789 Give me the guns back. 575 00:31:04.869 --> 00:31:07.069 Welcome to 101 Ways to Make Steak and Potatoes. 576 00:31:07.089 --> 00:31:07.990 First on the. 577 00:31:08.549 --> 00:31:09.089 On that note. 578 00:31:09.769 --> 00:31:11.589 yeah i saw that the other day and i was 579 00:31:11.630 --> 00:31:16.319 like this would be perfect to bring up on there. 580 00:31:14.940 --> 00:31:17.660 What a great example you know and and truly supposedly 581 00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:20.019 with the classic firing squad you know first off the 582 00:31:20.059 --> 00:31:22.809 guy's blindfolded not for his sake you know do you 583 00:31:22.829 --> 00:31:25.549 want the blindfold no i do not want to blindfold 584 00:31:25.650 --> 00:31:27.049 oh you are so brave but we're going to do 585 00:31:27.069 --> 00:31:29.789 it anyway yeah because we don't want to look at 586 00:31:29.809 --> 00:31:31.990 your ugly face dying in our dreams for the rest 587 00:31:32.009 --> 00:31:34.089 of our lives you know and And then the idea 588 00:31:34.130 --> 00:31:37.750 that supposedly out of 10 people, there's one that has 589 00:31:37.829 --> 00:31:39.829 a blank, and they don't know which one it is. 590 00:31:40.849 --> 00:31:43.609 But anybody that pulls the trigger knows whether he's firing 591 00:31:43.630 --> 00:31:44.490 a blank or not. 592 00:31:44.809 --> 00:31:46.990 Yeah, just like you always know whenever you're firing the 593 00:31:47.029 --> 00:31:50.109 last round out of an M16. You can tell because 594 00:31:50.130 --> 00:31:53.240 the breech stays back. You can instantly tell in the recoil. 595 00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:57.359 Or you know when you're firing a blank. But there's 596 00:31:57.420 --> 00:32:00.670 a lot of mythology revolving around it. I love the... 597 00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:04.579 I love the whole thing about Marshall Ney and the 598 00:32:04.619 --> 00:32:07.720 firing squad and him and how hard it was to 599 00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:11.259 get them to kill the guy. And you see this historically. 600 00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:17.210 I think it's Saratoga, the fort outside in Florida. It's 601 00:32:17.250 --> 00:32:21.130 got this wall where supposedly all the firing squads happened. 602 00:32:22.089 --> 00:32:27.210 And there's bullet pock marks all the way up this wall. 603 00:32:27.250 --> 00:32:31.710 That's kind of interesting, isn't it? It's a whole dynamic 604 00:32:31.789 --> 00:32:36.509 across history that a lot of what we think of 605 00:32:36.589 --> 00:32:39.250 as ancient battles, and I had a great, I did 606 00:32:39.410 --> 00:32:42.470 an article with an archaeologist quite a while back

about 607 00:32:42.529 --> 00:32:46.230 how the battles were big shoving matches until one side 608 00:32:46.269 --> 00:32:49.950 or the other ran, and then the killing happened. Usually, 609 00:32:49.970 --> 00:32:53.509 when somebody had a mobility advantage, the chariot, that's where 610 00:32:53.529 --> 00:32:57.309 the chariot did its thing, or the guy on horseback 611 00:32:57.349 --> 00:33:01.910 just riding along doesn't have to look him in the eyes, pseudo-speciation, 612 00:33:01.930 --> 00:33:07.990 because he's this creature. There's a lot of dynamics in 613 00:33:08.009 --> 00:33:11.210 play there. But the reality, if we think of this 614 00:33:11.339 --> 00:33:15.440 great killing match and grinding bodies away and death on 615 00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:20.180 the ancient battlefield, I think there's archaeological support that an 616 00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:23.900 awful lot of the killing actually happened afterwards. when one 617 00:33:23.940 --> 00:33:26.759 side of the other ran away and archaeologically we see 618 00:33:26.779 --> 00:33:29.799 this trail of bodies and debris all the way back 619 00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:33.049 as this pursuit took place. And we know, we know that, uh, 620 00:33:33.730 --> 00:33:37.170 you know, without Cav to support the pursuit, that, uh, 621 00:33:37.230 --> 00:33:40.509 that the ability to actually hit the enemy is greatly reduced. 622 00:33:40.589 --> 00:33:43.410 And that's represented in a lot of gaming and it's, 623 00:33:43.490 --> 00:33:46.890 it's pretty realistic. So it just, this whole image of war, 624 00:33:46.930 --> 00:33:49.920 you know, is, is totally different than, than the reality 625 00:33:49.980 --> 00:33:53.289 that we've, we've, we've got in our heads, I think. Uh, 626 00:33:54.289 --> 00:33:57.569 you've done a lot of World War I research, and 627 00:33:57.809 --> 00:34:00.369 you've got the non-firing data, and World War I, we 628 00:34:00.410 --> 00:34:02.930 know the machine gun. I've only had one World War 629 00:34:03.049 --> 00:34:05.970 I veteran I was ever able to interview, just one. 630 00:34:05.990 --> 00:34:10.710 I think it was in the early 1990s. But how 631 00:34:10.750 --> 00:34:14.210 much of that kind of resistance dynamic stacks up in 632 00:34:15.170 --> 00:34:18.750 the trenches and firing line in World War I? Where 633 00:34:18.769 --> 00:34:19.250 do you see it? 634 00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:23.059 Well, I mean, like, the most famous one is, you know, 635 00:34:23.179 --> 00:34:26.860 Ernst Junger, who, you know, by all accounts, including his own, 636 00:34:27.739 --> 00:34:30.659 thoroughly enjoyed his World War I experience. You know, if 637 00:34:30.699 --> 00:34:32.889 you can get past the trenches and the rats and 638 00:34:32.909 --> 00:34:35.630 the smell, like... But then again, he may have been 639 00:34:35.650 --> 00:34:38.869 a sociopath. Like, someone who is... Yeah, because, you know, 640 00:34:38.889 --> 00:34:40.730 I don't know if you've

ever read Ernst Junger's book 641 00:34:40.769 --> 00:34:41.070 or not. 642 00:34:41.090 --> 00:34:41.750 Sure. 643 00:34:42.309 --> 00:34:42.530 Yeah. 644 00:34:42.670 --> 00:34:44.690 Well, it's like, you know, he was a guy that's, like, 645 00:34:44.849 --> 00:34:47.650 on all... Like, he made up his own assault tactics 646 00:34:47.690 --> 00:34:51.280 because he just liked... going on patrols and throwing grenades 647 00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:54.460 and stuff. So maybe, you know, Ernst Junger isn't the best, 648 00:34:54.500 --> 00:34:56.699 you know, memoir to, you know, try to support that. 649 00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:00.699 You always have to have your BS meter going off too, 650 00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:02.849 how much of it was truthful and how much of 651 00:35:02.909 --> 00:35:06.369 it might be, you know, fanciful. It was, it was 652 00:35:06.510 --> 00:35:10.190 embraced in, in its time as truth. And so I 653 00:35:10.230 --> 00:35:12.030 think that's a pretty good test. There weren't a whole 654 00:35:12.090 --> 00:35:14.449 lot of people at the time standing up saying, nah, 655 00:35:14.489 --> 00:35:17.539 that doesn't pass the smell test. So that's, that's kind 656 00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:20.269 of your first test, but, I tell you, you really 657 00:35:20.309 --> 00:35:25.969 mentioned something important there. World War II, Normandy Beach, 60 658 00:35:25.969 --> 00:35:31.150 days in, 98% of those who were left had become 659 00:35:31.230 --> 00:35:36.449 psychiatric casualties. They weren't permanently, just their mind was a 660 00:35:36.489 --> 00:35:42.849 weak link. After 60 days of inescapable day and night combat, 98%, 661 00:35:42.849 --> 00:35:46.309 at least temporarily, were driven crazy by combat. So I 662 00:35:46.309 --> 00:35:49.280 always ask, what about the other 2%? And then And 663 00:35:49.300 --> 00:35:52.239 they were crazy when they got there. The World War 664 00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:58.199 II researchers lumped them together as aggressive sociopaths. But I 665 00:35:58.260 --> 00:36:00.869 think it's more complex than that. I think we can 666 00:36:00.929 --> 00:36:05.030 take that pool of people who take pleasure in combat 667 00:36:05.730 --> 00:36:09.150 and divide them into two parts. And none of this is, boom, 668 00:36:09.170 --> 00:36:13.840 you're 100%. I use the sheep, the wolf, and the 669 00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:18.190 sheepdog model. And it's really a continuum. People are somewhere 670 00:36:18.210 --> 00:36:22.989 in the continuum between the sheepdog and the sheep. But 671 00:36:23.030 --> 00:36:27.489 what we've got is you've got the sheepdog who's devoted 672 00:36:27.630 --> 00:36:31.730 truly to protecting, and you've got the wolf who's devoted 673 00:36:31.829 --> 00:36:36.030 to killing. And one is a sociopath, what's the other? 674 00:36:36.539 --> 00:36:40.239 If you have the propensity for violence in an absence 675 00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:43.860 of empathy, well, that's a pretty good thumbnail definition of 676 00:36:43.900 --> 00:36:46.829 a sociopath. A psychopath. But what if you had a 677 00:36:47.250 --> 00:36:51.269 propensity for violence and a love for the lambs? What 678 00:36:51.309 --> 00:36:55.719 if you spent a lifetime building the capacity for violence 679 00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:59.280 and a desire to use it to protect the innocent? 680 00:36:59.300 --> 00:37:02.940 Now what do you have? And I actually have the U.S. 681 00:37:02.980 --> 00:37:06.860 government trademark for the term sheepdog. I coined it and 682 00:37:07.539 --> 00:37:12.030 it's taken off and it's been a real... As a culture, 683 00:37:12.070 --> 00:37:15.269 we like dogs, and we're willing to embrace that more 684 00:37:15.309 --> 00:37:19.650 than past cultures might have been. But I think that 685 00:37:19.789 --> 00:37:25.090 sheepdog dynamic, the protector versus the destroyer, I think that's important. 686 00:37:26.510 --> 00:37:30.219 He was a sociopath. Well, maybe. Maybe he was a wolf. 687 00:37:30.340 --> 00:37:36.239 Maybe he was a sheepdog. And I think we've got 688 00:37:36.260 --> 00:37:39.179 an awful lot of people out there who really, really... 689 00:37:40.940 --> 00:37:43.260 want to be the sheepdog. They want to be the protector. 690 00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:46.199 But have they got the capacity at the moment of truth? 691 00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:52.449 Did you ever either read or watch Generation Kill? Yeah, sure. 692 00:37:53.070 --> 00:37:55.710 I always think of that one thing where they're talking 693 00:37:55.730 --> 00:37:58.309 about Trombley. It's like he's bumping down a road. We're 694 00:37:58.349 --> 00:38:01.510 going 50 miles an hour and he fires three bursts 695 00:38:01.590 --> 00:38:03.630 and hits exactly what he's shooting at. And the other 696 00:38:03.670 --> 00:38:06.659 guy's like, Yeah, because he's a psycho. At least he's 697 00:38:06.780 --> 00:38:07.559 our psycho. 698 00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:11.590 He's our psycho. 699 00:38:12.170 --> 00:38:15.329 That was such a great show that went over so 700 00:38:15.349 --> 00:38:20.630 many people's heads because they just made it too accurate. 701 00:38:22.329 --> 00:38:25.849 People with no conception of military acronyms and the way 702 00:38:25.889 --> 00:38:29.489 the military works, that show is so inaccessible to people. 703 00:38:29.849 --> 00:38:33.289 People who did spend time around the military... It's generally 704 00:38:33.349 --> 00:38:35.030 one of their favorite shows of all time. 705 00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:38.920 It never occurred to me that that would be, and 706 00:38:38.980 --> 00:38:45.260 you're right. There's like this barrier for those who, my wife, 707 00:38:45.300 --> 00:38:49.000 I don't, I read a lot, but my wife watches 708 00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:51.960 shows a lot. And she was listening to all the 709 00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:55.820 talk about RPG and they were talking about the QR, 710 00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:00.929 big quick

react, QRF is standing by. And I said, 711 00:39:01.050 --> 00:39:03.030 do you understand all that stuff? You know what an 712 00:39:03.090 --> 00:39:06.289 RPG and a QRF is? And she says, oh, yeah. 713 00:39:06.349 --> 00:39:10.159 I watch these shows. I know that. Okay. So, you know, 714 00:39:10.179 --> 00:39:15.219 I wonder how many of those people pick up on 715 00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:18.280 that and become accustomed to that. 716 00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:20.480 Well, I feel like some of it has kind of, 717 00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:22.909 I mean, back when it came out in 2008, I 718 00:39:22.969 --> 00:39:26.190 feel like more people didn't. But like with the rise of, 719 00:39:26.289 --> 00:39:28.809 you know, with the military spending all this money so 720 00:39:28.849 --> 00:39:30.969 Michael Bay can make movies. and like the Call of 721 00:39:31.010 --> 00:39:35.090 Duty franchise, like a lot of like military vernacular has 722 00:39:35.130 --> 00:39:37.989 sort of like trickled down through our culture, through other 723 00:39:38.090 --> 00:39:41.360 forms of entertainment that I feel like people like looking 724 00:39:41.409 --> 00:39:43.719 back at the show now probably understood it a lot 725 00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:45.409 more than like when it first came out. 726 00:39:45.780 --> 00:39:46.050 Yeah. 727 00:39:46.300 --> 00:39:47.760 It was like the guy. I mean, the guys who 728 00:39:47.780 --> 00:39:49.440 made it were the same guys that made The Wire. 729 00:39:50.230 --> 00:39:52.409 And I think it was Ed Burns. He was a 730 00:39:52.449 --> 00:39:56.190 Vietnam veteran. So he already had that, you know, military background. 731 00:39:56.969 --> 00:39:59.090 You know, you look back and you say, what will 732 00:39:59.130 --> 00:40:01.739 be the defining movie of our era? What will be 733 00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:06.039 the defining movie at that age? And I never thought 734 00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:08.440 that maybe Generation Kill will be the one that floats 735 00:40:08.500 --> 00:40:11.119 to the top. And when we look at current history, 736 00:40:11.719 --> 00:40:13.639 you know, we got the whole GWAT. We've got 20 737 00:40:13.639 --> 00:40:18.929 years of war. We just now left Iraq. We've been 738 00:40:18.969 --> 00:40:24.610 in there all this time. We've had more people at 739 00:40:24.820 --> 00:40:29.320 war over a continuous period of time. And, of course, 740 00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:33.840 our military is very, very small. But I had a 741 00:40:33.880 --> 00:40:38.309 command sergeant major. I was a young lieutenant, almost captain. 742 00:40:39.349 --> 00:40:42.989 And this guy had had five tours in Vietnam. And, 743 00:40:43.309 --> 00:40:45.090 you know, nobody was made to go back for a 744 00:40:45.150 --> 00:40:49.050 second helping. This guy had five tours, and he won 745 00:40:49.090 --> 00:40:54.530 the DSC on his fourth tour. And I asked him 746 00:40:54.570 --> 00:40:59.010 how he did it. And he was basically a platoon sergeant, 747 00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:05.000 an E6 platoon sergeant in charge of understrength platoon defending 748 00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:11.139 an airfield. And he said, I've been at war at 749 00:41:11.159 --> 00:41:14.440 that point for four years straight. He said, I had 750 00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:17.050 a little cloud of radio operators around me. I was 751 00:41:17.110 --> 00:41:22.130 calling in mortars, airstrikes, artillery. I was maneuvering subordinate elements. 752 00:41:22.289 --> 00:41:24.929 And it was just another day at the office for me. 753 00:41:24.949 --> 00:41:30.690 And I thought, man, that's just astounding. Some of our 754 00:41:30.769 --> 00:41:33.789 people out there that have been doing this now for decades, 755 00:41:33.849 --> 00:41:37.300 some of our more elite folks, they're at levels of 756 00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:39.659 performance it's hard for us to wrap our mind around. 757 00:41:40.179 --> 00:41:43.230 And there's this idea that they all have PTSD and 758 00:41:43.250 --> 00:41:46.730 they're all broken, when the truth is we've got this 759 00:41:46.909 --> 00:41:50.550 post-traumatic growth. And I think one of the most important 760 00:41:50.590 --> 00:41:55.030 things to talk about to any audience is how the 761 00:41:55.070 --> 00:41:57.780 body responds to a life and death event and the 762 00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:02.739 sympathetic nervous system arousal. So as a West Point psychology professor, 763 00:42:02.780 --> 00:42:05.280 I was the only OCS guy teaching at West Point 764 00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:08.969 at the time. It was kind of rare. And what 765 00:42:09.269 --> 00:42:14.429 do we want to teach psychology to? What's the most 766 00:42:14.510 --> 00:42:16.670 important thing? Well, right at the top of the list 767 00:42:16.750 --> 00:42:21.909 of things that they wanted taught was sympathetic, parasympathetic processes. 768 00:42:21.969 --> 00:42:24.659 And what we tell people is to first to lean 769 00:42:24.760 --> 00:42:29.920 into the adrenaline rush. We give the example of two musicians, right? 770 00:42:30.860 --> 00:42:33.179 One of them says, oh, I got staged right. Every 771 00:42:33.219 --> 00:42:35.599 time I go on stage, my heart's pounding, my guts 772 00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:39.179 are turning out. I don't think I can do it anymore. Snowflake. 773 00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:41.760 The old man says, every time I go on stage, 774 00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:44.880 my heart's pounding, my guts are turning. I want to 775 00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:46.820 do it for the rest of my life. Rock star. 776 00:42:47.420 --> 00:42:52.309 So two different people are having the exact same physiological response. 777 00:42:53.030 --> 00:42:56.610 And they're processing it exactly differently. So the first stage 778 00:42:57.230 --> 00:42:59.369 is to lean into the adrenaline rush. This is what 779 00:42:59.409 --> 00:43:02.190 you signed on for. This is what you want. You know, 780 00:43:02.230 -->

00:43:06.010 the life of adventure, roller coasters and rock climbing and parachuting. 781 00:43:06.769 --> 00:43:10.710 But the other half of the equation is that something 782 00:43:11.090 --> 00:43:14.289 triggers that sympathetic nervous system when you don't want it to. 783 00:43:14.969 --> 00:43:19.630 A sound, a smell. And the best example I've got, 784 00:43:19.670 --> 00:43:25.170 I taught the International Association of Hospitals Security Administrators and Chiefs. 785 00:43:26.070 --> 00:43:28.699 And the one security chief says, I got one of 786 00:43:28.739 --> 00:43:32.500 my security officers gets punched in the nose in the ER. 787 00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:35.380 He said, Chief, I can't go in the ER anymore. 788 00:43:36.340 --> 00:43:38.239 Every time I go in the ER, my heart's pounding, 789 00:43:38.260 --> 00:43:42.820 my guts are turning. I got PTSD. I'm broken. And 790 00:43:42.840 --> 00:43:47.289 I said, no. Nobody wants to be broken. Nobody wants 791 00:43:47.309 --> 00:43:50.389 to have a disorder. But this is what it feels 792 00:43:50.489 --> 00:43:54.869 like to level up in a video game. This is important. Look, 793 00:43:55.090 --> 00:43:58.050 we've all played video games. Your character's in combat. Poof, 794 00:43:58.090 --> 00:44:00.570 you level up. Oh, that's cool. Well, what's it like 795 00:44:00.659 --> 00:44:03.059 in real life? This is what it's like. You go 796 00:44:03.079 --> 00:44:05.550 back in that ER. with a bottle of water in 797 00:44:05.570 --> 00:44:07.429 your hand. And one of the best ways to control 798 00:44:07.469 --> 00:44:10.719 the sympathetic nervous system arousal, take a big swig of water. 799 00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:13.599 You go back to that ER and you take that 800 00:44:13.639 --> 00:44:18.599 big swig of water and you push on through this thing. 801 00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:21.670 The World War II generation, they would push through it. 802 00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:24.250 They didn't say, ah, I'm broken. They didn't even have 803 00:44:24.289 --> 00:44:28.010 a word for PTSD. A new generation thinks, I'm broken. 804 00:44:28.349 --> 00:44:31.210 They don't know there's another alternative. Now the World War 805 00:44:31.230 --> 00:44:34.110 II generation, they... So they didn't get help when they 806 00:44:34.170 --> 00:44:36.429 needed it. And we didn't know how to help them. 807 00:44:36.489 --> 00:44:38.909 So they turned to alcohol or they got mean, but 808 00:44:39.010 --> 00:44:42.690 most of them were truly the greatest generation. The World 809 00:44:42.710 --> 00:44:46.550 War II generation were an example of post-traumatic growth. 810 00:44:47.570 --> 00:44:51.260 So I'm curious, you know, I assume you continue to 811 00:44:51.300 --> 00:44:54.739 talk to veterans and stuff in your, you know, do 812 00:44:54.780 --> 00:45:00.340 you find that the younger generation is more open about, 813 00:45:00.980 --> 00:45:04.570 talking about combat experience, not only because, you know,

therapy 814 00:45:04.590 --> 00:45:07.369 these days is less stigmatized, but because you have random 815 00:45:07.389 --> 00:45:09.730 people going out there, putting every detail of their life 816 00:45:09.829 --> 00:45:12.010 on social media as it is. Like, do you find 817 00:45:12.070 --> 00:45:16.309 like older millennials slash, you know, Gen Z combat vets 818 00:45:16.369 --> 00:45:18.570 are much more willing to talk to you than the 819 00:45:18.650 --> 00:45:19.690 older generations were? 820 00:45:19.710 --> 00:45:23.469 I don't, I don't, I don't see any fundamental difference. 821 00:45:24.070 --> 00:45:24.369 Really? 822 00:45:24.469 --> 00:45:26.949 It's funny. You know, we still don't, we just still 823 00:45:27.260 --> 00:45:29.739 don't get hunters sitting around and say, oh, I didn't 824 00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:34.309 hear the shot. You know, that biological dynamic. I mean, 825 00:45:35.389 --> 00:45:37.739 let's put it this way. I think it's really, really 826 00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:41.579 like sex. So have we got a generation that sits 827 00:45:41.639 --> 00:45:44.400 around at work and talks about their sex life now 828 00:45:45.059 --> 00:45:47.500 any more than there was before? To a certain degree. 829 00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:50.329 I mean, I can tell because, I mean, I sit 830 00:45:50.389 --> 00:45:52.929 at an interesting place like in construction because I'm surrounded 831 00:45:52.969 --> 00:45:56.719 by both like 50 to 60 year olds. And kids 832 00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:59.590 right out of high school, and I'm the fulcrum in 833 00:45:59.610 --> 00:46:03.610 the middle trying to keep balance between the both of them. But, 834 00:46:03.849 --> 00:46:07.110 I mean, at least, especially with the kids these days, 835 00:46:07.130 --> 00:46:10.809 they'll brag about what limited conquests they've had so far. 836 00:46:10.829 --> 00:46:14.880 I think that was true. I was 17 years old. 837 00:46:14.900 --> 00:46:17.880 I lied about my age and worked on a wildcat 838 00:46:17.980 --> 00:46:21.489 oil rig in Panhandle in Nebraska, and And when I 839 00:46:21.510 --> 00:46:24.530 turned 18, I became a paratrooper. It was infinitely safer. 840 00:46:24.590 --> 00:46:27.170 Those guys on the oil rig, they couldn't spell lotion, 841 00:46:27.230 --> 00:46:27.949 let alone comply. 842 00:46:28.090 --> 00:46:31.110 Oh, yeah, oil rigs are a nightmare. 843 00:46:31.269 --> 00:46:35.559 And those guys were always talking about their sexual conquests 844 00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:38.059 and some of the other stuff. But when you sit 845 00:46:38.099 --> 00:46:43.599 down one-on-one and really try to get intimate information, it's just, 846 00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:46.719 you know, people throw out stupid stuff. Like you said, 847 00:46:46.760 --> 00:46:53.000 your sexual conquests, but I think there's something very fundamental. 848 00:46:54.139 --> 00:46:57.889 The new generation truly is better equipped to talk about 849 00:46:57.949 --> 00:47:01.449 sex than ever. And yet, how much of that is 850 00:47:01.489 --> 00:47:04.809 just BS? And I think the new generation is better 851 00:47:04.869 --> 00:47:07.690 equipped to talk about war than ever. I mean, my 852 00:47:07.750 --> 00:47:11.090 books from Marine Corps commandants required reading lists. They got 853 00:47:11.449 --> 00:47:13.789 this frame of reference. And I'll give you a great example. 854 00:47:15.800 --> 00:47:20.909 One of the most important things to understand is in combat, 855 00:47:21.449 --> 00:47:25.050 you've got slow motion time. I've had hundreds of people 856 00:47:25.130 --> 00:47:27.650 tell me they can see the bullet in combat. 857 00:47:27.769 --> 00:47:30.130 I've experienced that before, so I know that one's true. 858 00:47:30.269 --> 00:47:33.650 Yeah, it's like airsoft, they're paintballing. I've had dozens of 859 00:47:33.690 --> 00:47:36.070 people tell me I could see the bullet leave the barrel, 860 00:47:36.130 --> 00:47:39.110 I could see the bullet enter his body. And so 861 00:47:39.150 --> 00:47:43.929 this slow motion time, the tunnel vision, the auditory exclusion 862 00:47:43.969 --> 00:47:47.769 we talked about, you don't hear the shots. And then 863 00:47:48.030 --> 00:47:52.090 the memory gaps, and then the memory distortions. People who 864 00:47:52.230 --> 00:47:57.309 just flat remembered something that did not happen. And usually 865 00:47:58.010 --> 00:48:02.659 it's something bad. They imagine something that happened, and then 866 00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:07.840 it becomes hardened. And I'll give you an example. A 867 00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:11.480 SEAL team in Vietnam, 20 years later, one of the 868 00:48:11.539 --> 00:48:13.820 members of the SEAL team said, I've got to confess, 869 00:48:13.889 --> 00:48:16.880 I've got to confess. He said, we're on this one op. 870 00:48:16.940 --> 00:48:18.440 We're at the end of the op. We went in 871 00:48:18.460 --> 00:48:21.260 this hooch, and we killed all of these people. We 872 00:48:21.320 --> 00:48:23.820 killed them all, and we committed an atrocity, and I've 873 00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:27.840 got to confess. And it didn't happen. And I could 874 00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:31.539 see where somebody would have, like, this nightmare, this manifestation, 875 00:48:31.619 --> 00:48:34.030 and then live with it. And they didn't debrief. They 876 00:48:34.070 --> 00:48:37.250 didn't do a critical incident debrief. And the truth is 877 00:48:37.289 --> 00:48:39.829 that the timeline was such that it could not have 878 00:48:39.849 --> 00:48:43.329 been happening. It could have been recreated. So fast forward to... 879 00:48:44.739 --> 00:48:48.260 A Navy psychologist had told me he's in country in Iraq. 880 00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:54.980 A Marine has been wounded. The Marine is in bed, 881 00:48:55.920 --> 00:49:00.920 in country, in the hospital. And he said, my buddy 882 00:49:01.380 --> 00:49:04.360 in my squad is dead. I had a shot at 883

00:49:04.420 --> 00:49:07.420 this guy. I didn't take the shot. My buddy's dead 884 00:49:07.579 --> 00:49:10.039 because I didn't take the shot. It's my fault he's dead. 885 00:49:10.610 --> 00:49:13.530 And so they did an AAR. They did just the 886 00:49:13.550 --> 00:49:16.360 squad sat around. Their psychologist told me the squad sat 887 00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:19.550 around the guy's hospital bed. And they did it by 888 00:49:19.590 --> 00:49:26.199 the numbers. after-action review, an AAR. And they said, no, basically, 889 00:49:26.219 --> 00:49:28.679 they said, dude, that wasn't even in your sector. There's 890 00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:30.280 no way you would have had a shot at him. 891 00:49:31.260 --> 00:49:37.480 And my book, Marine Corps Commandant's Required Reading List, and 892 00:49:37.539 --> 00:49:40.449 he said, whoa, man. Maybe it was one of those 893 00:49:40.550 --> 00:49:44.929 memory distortions we read about. Okay, I can accept that 894 00:49:44.989 --> 00:49:49.050 that happened. But I'll give you a case after case 895 00:49:49.070 --> 00:49:52.659 where people didn't know it was going to happen and 896 00:49:52.900 --> 00:49:55.719 are blindsided by it. I'm really interested, though, about your 897 00:49:55.760 --> 00:49:57.880 slow motion time seeing bullets. Can you tell me? 898 00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:00.079 So I wasn't getting shot at the one time I 899 00:50:00.300 --> 00:50:02.809 was shot. the church I used to go to, they 900 00:50:02.869 --> 00:50:05.050 used to do like a retreat up in New York. 901 00:50:05.110 --> 00:50:06.849 It was, they called it snow camp. Like he went 902 00:50:06.889 --> 00:50:08.829 up to the mountains and like one of the activities 903 00:50:08.909 --> 00:50:11.760 was snowmobiling. So I had done it the year before. 904 00:50:11.840 --> 00:50:13.920 So I was familiar with the snowmobile. So I was 905 00:50:13.960 --> 00:50:16.960 going around this corner and instead of breaking, I just 906 00:50:16.980 --> 00:50:19.820 tried to let up on the throttle and I had 907 00:50:19.860 --> 00:50:22.260 some wet snow on my fingers. So when I tried 908 00:50:22.300 --> 00:50:24.179 to let it go, it slipped and it punched the 909 00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:27.670 accelerator forward and it stayed in that position. And so 910 00:50:27.769 --> 00:50:29.849 I took off. I had two thoughts. I was like, 911 00:50:29.909 --> 00:50:33.099 why am I here? And oh, look, fence. And so 912 00:50:33.119 --> 00:50:35.420 I hit this horse fence going 50 miles an hour 913 00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:37.960 and I jump off the snowmobile. And as I jump 914 00:50:38.039 --> 00:50:41.460 and hit the fence, I'm going towards the ground and 915 00:50:41.480 --> 00:50:43.500 I could literally see it all happen in slow motion. 916 00:50:43.539 --> 00:50:46.340 And it actually gave my reflexes enough time to throw 917 00:50:46.409 --> 00:50:49.789 my hands up. I did a handspring, broke both my wrists, 918 00:50:49.949 --> 00:50:51.010

but it saved my life. 919 00:50:51.530 --> 00:50:54.829 Oh, what a great example. Of slow motion time in 920 00:50:54.869 --> 00:50:55.750 a life and death event. 921 00:50:55.849 --> 00:50:57.929 And I haven't shot at before. I mean, not in combat, 922 00:50:58.090 --> 00:51:01.099 deer hunting. Cause you know, guys, I was literally looking 923 00:51:01.139 --> 00:51:04.719 down the barrel of two guns. I watched the, fortunately 924 00:51:04.760 --> 00:51:06.920 these guys can't shoot to save their lives. Otherwise I 925 00:51:06.940 --> 00:51:10.380 would be dead. But you know, I hit the deck immediately. 926 00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:13.510 I knew about the whistle and the snap rule about bullets. So, 927 00:51:13.550 --> 00:51:15.269 you know, I was getting as low as I could. 928 00:51:15.289 --> 00:51:18.500 I didn't piss myself. but I also, I didn't see 929 00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:20.789 slow motion time there. I saw, like I said, I 930 00:51:20.849 --> 00:51:23.789 saw the two, the two chrome insides of the barrels. 931 00:51:23.829 --> 00:51:25.510 And I was like, you know what? It's not worth it. 932 00:51:26.070 --> 00:51:27.750 I just, I just hit the deck and let the, 933 00:51:27.829 --> 00:51:30.349 let the buckshot rip the tree branches above my head. 934 00:51:31.610 --> 00:51:33.679 But what a great example of slow motion time. You know, 935 00:51:33.699 --> 00:51:36.780 I was, I'm a 2 million miler on Delta and 936 00:51:36.820 --> 00:51:40.659 about hit 2 million on American and United. And I've 937 00:51:40.679 --> 00:51:43.110 been in the area. So I'm in Casper, Wyoming and, 938 00:51:44.090 --> 00:51:47.659 in a little prop plane. And there's one seat down 939 00:51:47.780 --> 00:51:49.920 one side and two seats on the other side. And 940 00:51:49.940 --> 00:51:52.300 I got my little window exit row seat. And one 941 00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:55.099 of the biggest human beings I've ever seen is coming 942 00:51:55.139 --> 00:51:57.519 down the aisle. I said, dear Lord, don't let him 943 00:51:57.559 --> 00:52:02.659 sit with me. I'm over here, you know, hunched over here. 944 00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:05.800 And look, I said, you're a pretty healthy guy. He said, 945 00:52:05.840 --> 00:52:07.840 what do you do? He said, I'm on the national 946 00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:10.840 sports team. We're headed to Salt Lake City. I said, 947 00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:13.820 what's your sport? He said, I wrestle. I said, oh, 948 00:52:13.820 --> 00:52:15.659 you've been to the Olympics? He said, well, I won 949 00:52:15.679 --> 00:52:18.659 the gold last year. It was Rulon Gardner. It was 950 00:52:18.699 --> 00:52:21.340 this guy that beat the Russian, has never been beat. 951 00:52:21.380 --> 00:52:23.380 And I'm sitting in, I've got the privilege, sitting in 952 00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:26.639 an airline seat with Rulon Gardner. And he says, so 953 00:52:26.909 --> 00:52:28.719 what do you do? And so I told him about it. 954 00:52:28.789 --> 00:52:32.389 And we got talking about slow motion time and tunnel 955 00:52:32.409 --> 00:52:36.210 vision and sensory focusing. And he says, that's what happens 956 00:52:36.230 --> 00:52:40.940 to me in a match. He says, slow motion time 957 00:52:41.019 --> 00:52:43.099 is the norm, you know, just all the time in 958 00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:45.820 the world. He said, and I'm doing an underhook. I 959 00:52:45.820 --> 00:52:47.559 ain't got a clue what an underhook is. He said, 960 00:52:47.639 --> 00:52:49.619 I'm doing an underhook. He said, the only thing in 961 00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:53.380 the universe is my hand and what it's sensing as 962 00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:56.099 it goes in and under. And he said, I don't 963 00:52:56.139 --> 00:52:58.380 hear the crowd, but I hear the creak of his 964 00:52:58.460 --> 00:53:00.659 foot on the mat and I hear my coach and 965 00:53:01.110 --> 00:53:04.610 sensory folks. So the point is, what you experienced in 966 00:53:04.630 --> 00:53:07.260 the snow, you know, like I'm, like a baseball player 967 00:53:07.469 --> 00:53:11.050 at bat, a really, really good baseball player at bat, supposedly, 968 00:53:11.050 --> 00:53:14.409 100 mile an hour fastballs coming at them, and they 969 00:53:14.429 --> 00:53:17.469 can see the stitching on the ball. That's slow motion time. 970 00:53:18.269 --> 00:53:21.230 So what you experienced in a life and death event 971 00:53:22.110 --> 00:53:26.710 is what I think world-class athletes are tapping into. But 972 00:53:26.769 --> 00:53:28.969 in this life and death event, we're experiencing these things. 973 00:53:29.010 --> 00:53:32.650 But just, you know, my book on combat won a 974 00:53:32.809 --> 00:53:35.880 Ukrainian Book of the Year award I spent the summer 975 00:53:35.980 --> 00:53:39.340 of 24 in Ukraine training their troops, working on a bit. 976 00:53:39.900 --> 00:53:42.340 I tell everybody, set aside the fact. You know, I 977 00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:44.679 tell them, set aside the fact somebody's trying to kill you. 978 00:53:45.400 --> 00:53:52.719 If you were sitting here right now, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, blackouts, hallucinations, 979 00:53:54.369 --> 00:53:58.489 that would meet every definition of a psychotic episode. Just 980 00:53:58.530 --> 00:54:01.090 those things by themselves would scare the daylights out of you. 981 00:54:01.150 --> 00:54:03.309 The fact that somebody's trying to kill you is bad enough. 982 00:54:04.079 --> 00:54:06.400 without your body doing weird and one of the things 983 00:54:06.440 --> 00:54:09.199 nobody warned you about. So the very first thing we 984 00:54:09.260 --> 00:54:13.070 ought to do before we send anybody into combat or 985 00:54:13.190 --> 00:54:16.769 even into any life and death event is to know, hey, 986 00:54:16.789 --> 00:54:19.769 slow motion time is probably going to happen. It's normal 987 00:54:19.949 --> 00:54:21.429 and it gives you all the time in the world 988 00:54:21.469 -->

00:54:23.500 to think through what your reaction is going to be. 989 00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:26.780 And it's good and it's normal. The memory gaps and 990 00:54:26.800 --> 00:54:29.820 the memory distortions and the need to debrief and fill 991 00:54:29.860 --> 00:54:32.820 in the memory gaps and fill in the memory distortions. 992 00:54:32.860 --> 00:54:35.739 This should be just the fundamental things that every human 993 00:54:35.780 --> 00:54:38.760 being ought to know about themselves. 994 00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:41.760 And I'd be very curious to see too, like after 995 00:54:41.780 --> 00:54:46.239 the Ukraine war is over, like what those combat stories are, 996 00:54:46.320 --> 00:54:49.760 because like, because the Ukraine, like, especially like now, like 997 00:54:49.800 --> 00:54:52.849 when there's drones everywhere, you have like on top of 998 00:54:52.889 --> 00:54:55.690 the normal stresses of modern combat, you have that like 999 00:54:56.210 --> 00:54:59.429 panopticon feeling, like where guys won't even like take a 1000 00:54:59.469 --> 00:55:02.150 piss on a tree because like that thermal signature might 1001 00:55:02.250 --> 00:55:05.320 give like their unit away. and they'll get artillery dropped 1002 00:55:05.389 --> 00:55:08.190 on their heads 10 minutes later. Like, I'm curious to see, like, 1003 00:55:09.090 --> 00:55:12.329 what that looks like post-war with those guys. 1004 00:55:12.369 --> 00:55:14.789 Let me tell you what I think is a fundamentally 1005 00:55:14.889 --> 00:55:18.429 new thing about the battlefield. Killing people from a distance 1006 00:55:18.530 --> 00:55:21.329 is not new. Being killed from a distance is not new. 1007 00:55:22.050 --> 00:55:24.349 I mean, in World War I, you know, all you 1008 00:55:24.369 --> 00:55:26.829 had to do was, you know, the snipers could pick 1009 00:55:26.989 --> 00:55:30.769 off anything, and you lived your lives in it. If 1010 00:55:30.809 --> 00:55:34.159 you're being killed from afar and killing from afar... The 1011 00:55:34.199 --> 00:55:37.599 fundamental biological of that, it hasn't changed. I'll tell you 1012 00:55:37.619 --> 00:55:44.460 what's new, and is sleep. In World War I, World 1013 00:55:44.500 --> 00:55:49.539 War II, Korea, even Vietnam, when there wasn't anything to do, 1014 00:55:50.340 --> 00:55:52.760 they would write letters, they would read, and they would sleep. 1015 00:55:53.659 --> 00:55:57.110 And as long as there was no immediate demand, they 1016 00:55:57.300 --> 00:56:04.559 always got enough sleep. But sleep is a biological blind spot. 1017 00:56:05.260 --> 00:56:07.440 Any 10-year-old girl in a slumber party can go at 1018 00:56:07.480 --> 00:56:10.380 night without sleep. It's not that big a deal to 1019 00:56:10.539 --> 00:56:12.800 go without sleep. Now, try to make that girl go 1020 00:56:12.860 --> 00:56:18.360 that long without food. And so the body needs four 1021 00:56:18.420 --> 00:56:21.039 things to survive. We need air. We need water. We 1022 00:56:21.059 --> 00:56:24.469 need food. We need sleep. But the body is really, 1023 00:56:24.530 --> 00:56:27.469 really bad at making us get enough sleep if there's 1024 00:56:27.489 --> 00:56:32.119 something exciting. And television and movies and video games are 1025 00:56:32.159 --> 00:56:35.840 doing that to us. And so what's happening is the 1026 00:56:35.880 --> 00:56:39.239 most fundamentally new thing on the modern battlefield is not drones, 1027 00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:43.739 it's this, the cell phone. And instead of sleeping, they're 1028 00:56:43.760 --> 00:56:46.079 watching movies and they're playing video. I know it's hard 1029 00:56:46.099 --> 00:56:50.260 to believe. I had a command sergeant major 101st Airborne Division. 1030 00:56:50.280 --> 00:56:53.360 I'm training a brigade of the 101st, punching out to Iraq. 1031 00:56:54.480 --> 00:56:58.039 And he said, on our previous deployment, he's Battalion Sergeant Major, 1032 00:56:59.039 --> 00:57:02.440 he said, we're doing combat patrols during the day and 1033 00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:06.110 barracks operations at night. He said, I told my troops, 1034 00:57:06.340 --> 00:57:10.530 it's lights out at 2200. He said, if I catch 1035 00:57:10.570 --> 00:57:14.590 you playing video games after 10 o'clock, I will take 1036 00:57:14.670 --> 00:57:18.269 your video games. The Sergeant Major said, a week later, 1037 00:57:18.980 --> 00:57:23.699 I had a closet overflowing with video games. He said, 1038 00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:27.400 these are good troops. They wouldn't disobey an order. He said, 1039 00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:31.699 these are exact words. He said, they cannot not play 1040 00:57:31.719 --> 00:57:34.940 those damn games. And so the games give an illusion 1041 00:57:34.980 --> 00:57:38.719 of control. They give an illusion of progress. It's very 1042 00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:42.679 seductive to people under stress. And they play the games 1043 00:57:42.760 --> 00:57:45.090 and they watch the movies instead of sleeping. And that's 1044 00:57:45.139 --> 00:57:49.920 the new reality of the battlefield. And so I'm in Ukraine, 1045 00:57:50.059 --> 00:57:51.960 and I'm talking about this. One of the things I 1046 00:57:51.980 --> 00:57:55.920 talk about every presentation is sleep hygiene and sleep management 1047 00:57:56.000 --> 00:57:58.969 and how there's this desire to watch movies and a 1048 00:57:59.050 --> 00:58:01.949 desire to play video games and how they give an 1049 00:58:02.010 --> 00:58:04.670 illusion of control and how we've got to confront it 1050 00:58:04.769 --> 00:58:08.769 and make our troops get enough sleep. And I'm working 1051 00:58:09.230 --> 00:58:12.239 in small groups. I kind of pull back. If there's 1052 00:58:12.300 --> 00:58:15.579 more than 50 people, it kind of becomes a target, 1053 00:58:15.679 --> 00:58:21.619 and small groups... of a primarily captain, major, lieutenant colonel level, 1054 00:58:22.199 --> 00:58:26.159

being pulled back from the line. And my book is 1055 00:58:26.820 --> 00:58:31.340 a national bestseller and a book of the year award. 1056 00:58:32.219 --> 00:58:35.110 And one young captain stands up, and it took a 1057 00:58:35.139 --> 00:58:38.510 lot of courage to do this, in front of everybody else, 1058 00:58:38.590 --> 00:58:42.050 probably a company commander. He says, you're right. He says, 1059 00:58:42.070 --> 00:58:44.869 you're right. He says, you never know when the Russians 1060 00:58:44.889 --> 00:58:47.079 are going to bomb us, so you can't sleep. Now, 1061 00:58:47.119 --> 00:58:49.840 that's not true. In World War I, World War II, 1062 00:58:49.880 --> 00:58:52.519 we learned you can sleep through anything. You get tired enough, 1063 00:58:52.539 --> 00:58:56.099 you're going to sleep. He said, you can't sleep. And 1064 00:58:56.139 --> 00:58:59.659 so I play video games. He says, I never sleep. 1065 00:58:59.679 --> 00:59:02.309 I just play video games. And he's given us this 1066 00:59:02.309 --> 00:59:05.619 great gift. He's saying, you're right. This is happening to me. 1067 00:59:05.619 --> 00:59:09.969 Another audience, another young company commander, you know young captain 1068 00:59:10.010 --> 00:59:13.070 probably a company commander stands up and he says he 1069 00:59:13.090 --> 00:59:16.269 said I have terrible nightmares he said I don't want 1070 00:59:16.329 --> 00:59:19.510 to sleep and so I watch movies I have nightmares 1071 00:59:19.570 --> 00:59:21.380 I don't want to sleep and so I watch movies 1072 00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:24.940 all the time and once again you know he knows 1073 00:59:24.980 --> 00:59:29.179 this isn't making it better he's saying you're right And 1074 00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:33.539 so this illusion of control, and I use an example 1075 00:59:33.559 --> 00:59:37.420 of a Marine Artillery Battalion that was in Syria about 1076 00:59:37.500 --> 00:59:41.260 five years ago. It was a Marine Reserve Artillery Battalion. 1077 00:59:41.280 --> 00:59:44.099 They're in Syria. They fired some missions. They came home. 1078 00:59:44.800 --> 00:59:48.989 Terrible PTSD. And by the way, if you're sleep-deprived, a 1079 00:59:49.010 --> 00:59:53.170 great study, if you're sleep-deprived, you're five times more likely 1080 00:59:53.210 --> 00:59:56.429 to get PTSD, nine times more likely to have major 1081 00:59:56.449 --> 01:00:00.679 depressive disorder, and six times more likely to have suicidal ideation. 1082 01:00:00.739 --> 01:00:05.519 Sleep deprivation is one of the most significant factors in suicide. 1083 01:00:05.920 --> 01:00:13.030 It's huge. And so this Marine Artillery Battalion comes home. 1084 01:00:13.769 --> 01:00:17.769 They got all these suicides and PTSD, and they say, oh, yeah, 1085 01:00:17.789 --> 01:00:20.849 I was firing that artillery. It was bad. No, it wasn't. 1086 01:00:21.469 --> 01:00:24.130 World War I, World War II, they fired artillery for 1087 01:00:24.190 --> 01:00:25.909 years on end, and this didn't happen. 1088 01:00:26.070 --> 01:00:27.199 With no air protection, too. 1089 01:00:27.679 --> 01:00:32.789 Yeah, and I'll tell you what happened. They did their 1090 01:00:32.809 --> 01:00:35.690 job when they had to, but they were not sleeping. 1091 01:00:37.010 --> 01:00:42.550 And this absence of sleep is the great epidemic. You 1092 01:00:42.570 --> 01:00:46.760 can do online search, a global epidemic of sleep deprivation. 1093 01:00:47.539 --> 01:00:51.400 Sleep deprivation is the key factor of mental illness and suicide. 1094 01:00:51.860 --> 01:00:55.849 I'm curious, too, though, beyond the sleep, what is... Especially 1095 01:00:55.909 --> 01:00:59.230 these like drone operators that fly like the little, either 1096 01:00:59.269 --> 01:01:02.289 like the one-way drones or the ones that drop grenades. 1097 01:01:02.329 --> 01:01:05.179 Like I've seen some of the footage where like Russian 1098 01:01:05.219 --> 01:01:08.159 or Ukrainian soldiers will like see the drone and like 1099 01:01:08.219 --> 01:01:10.599 drop their weapon and like literally like drop to their 1100 01:01:10.659 --> 01:01:13.579 knees and like start begging. Like what is, and then 1101 01:01:13.599 --> 01:01:15.440 the guys will still like drop their grenade on them. 1102 01:01:15.460 --> 01:01:17.679 Like those are the guys that I would be curious 1103 01:01:17.820 --> 01:01:21.239 in like interviewing after the war to see like what 1104 01:01:21.260 --> 01:01:25.199 kind of, because it kind of, bypasses like for those 1105 01:01:25.219 --> 01:01:27.340 who haven't read the book like there's like the closer 1106 01:01:27.400 --> 01:01:30.420 you are to you know the person you're killing the 1107 01:01:30.460 --> 01:01:33.610 more resistant you are but this one kind of skips 1108 01:01:33.659 --> 01:01:36.329 a few steps because technically you are long distance but 1109 01:01:36.369 --> 01:01:38.550 with a good enough camera you know you can see 1110 01:01:38.929 --> 01:01:41.210 the sweat and the tears on the guy's eyes when 1111 01:01:41.250 --> 01:01:42.670 you kill him so. 1112 01:01:42.789 --> 01:01:45.530 Yeah what i always try to do is i try 1113 01:01:45.570 --> 01:01:49.590 to find a historical analogy you know with snipers in 1114 01:01:49.610 --> 01:01:52.710 world war one and world war two or or people 1115 01:01:52.909 --> 01:01:56.300 in the machine gun as the waves are coming at them. 1116 01:01:57.139 --> 01:02:00.480 And I tell you, there isn't really a good historical 1117 01:02:00.539 --> 01:02:06.039 analogy to what you just said. That very specific of 1118 01:02:06.159 --> 01:02:08.880 dropping a grenade on a guy who's trying to surrender, 1119 01:02:08.900 --> 01:02:16.199 that very dynamic, other than flat-out atrocities, other than flat-out 1120 01:02:16.320 --> 01:02:20.750 murdering people who are trying to surrender it, we can't 1121 01:02:20.849 --> 01:02:24.369 really find equivalents, and it's

going to be hard for 1122 01:02:24.409 --> 01:02:27.869 these guys. I think it's going to be a little difficult, 1123 01:02:27.909 --> 01:02:30.369 but we get this, oh, they're all going to be broken, 1124 01:02:30.409 --> 01:02:35.639 they've all got PTSD, they all have moral harm. Well, 1125 01:02:36.980 --> 01:02:38.860 maybe not. Most of them won't be able to get 1126 01:02:38.940 --> 01:02:41.579 on with their lives and probably be just fine, but 1127 01:02:41.780 --> 01:02:43.960 it's not good, and it's not right. It's hard. 1128 01:02:44.360 --> 01:02:47.420 It's interesting, because my neighbor, he was in the Coast Guard, 1129 01:02:47.460 --> 01:02:50.320 and I didn't even know this, but like after like 9-11, 1130 01:02:50.420 --> 01:02:53.050 like the Coast Guard got deployed. I thought like legally 1131 01:02:53.090 --> 01:02:55.329 the Coast Guard had to stay within how many miles. 1132 01:02:55.369 --> 01:02:57.949 But apparently after 9-11, the Navy was coming up short 1133 01:02:58.570 --> 01:03:01.070 and they were doing this raid in the Mediterranean on 1134 01:03:01.110 --> 01:03:04.190 some pirate ship or whatever. And you would have never 1135 01:03:04.250 --> 01:03:05.829 known to talk to the guy because, you know, he's 1136 01:03:05.849 --> 01:03:08.409 just a happy-go-lucky guy. But one night, because he was 1137 01:03:08.469 --> 01:03:10.769 part of a veterans motorcycle club, they used to have 1138 01:03:10.829 --> 01:03:13.389 like bonfires in his house and they would come over. 1139 01:03:13.409 --> 01:03:15.900 And one night he gets drunk and he tells us 1140 01:03:15.940 --> 01:03:19.250 the story of like them boarding a ship and his 1141 01:03:19.809 --> 01:03:23.260 like best friend like taking a grenade and he was 1142 01:03:23.300 --> 01:03:24.659 in front of him and he caught some of the 1143 01:03:24.679 --> 01:03:27.300 shrapnel and he said like after that like we were 1144 01:03:27.320 --> 01:03:29.420 supposed to take survivors on that raid and we made 1145 01:03:29.500 --> 01:03:32.420 sure like everybody on the boat was dead and like 1146 01:03:32.440 --> 01:03:34.340 you would never know that like he took part in 1147 01:03:34.389 --> 01:03:36.590 that i mean i guess technically it's an atrocity i 1148 01:03:36.630 --> 01:03:39.130 mean they weren't surrendering but you know they were supposed 1149 01:03:39.150 --> 01:03:42.150 to take people alive but like it took all of 1150 01:03:42.190 --> 01:03:44.690 that like we knew this guy for years Never said 1151 01:03:44.730 --> 01:03:46.429 a word about any of it. And one night, like 1152 01:03:46.449 --> 01:03:48.949 he has one, you know, shot of whiskey enough, he 1153 01:03:49.010 --> 01:03:50.090 starts telling stories. 1154 01:03:50.809 --> 01:03:55.579 You know what? And not my BS meter goes off. 1155 01:03:55.599 --> 01:04:00.400 You always have the baloney meter going. And, you know, 1156 01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:04.510 I've trained the Coast Guard a lot, a lot of 1157 01:04:04.530 --> 01:04:10.769 their guys. And there was several medals of valor. And 1158 01:04:10.849 --> 01:04:13.409 it was the only combat ops that they actually had. 1159 01:04:14.449 --> 01:04:19.590 were in the Arabian Gulf right in there. And they 1160 01:04:19.610 --> 01:04:22.190 did have some combat hops and they did lose some people. 1161 01:04:22.789 --> 01:04:24.889 But my baloney meter would be going off to a 1162 01:04:24.949 --> 01:04:27.889 certain degree. And you got to give people credit. But, 1163 01:04:28.650 --> 01:04:32.659 you know, it's almost like somebody wants to put on 1164 01:04:32.699 --> 01:04:40.360 this model. Yeah, we did these terrible things. Maybe it's true. 1165 01:04:40.539 --> 01:04:43.639 I mean, I know for one thing, he definitely... took 1166 01:04:43.659 --> 01:04:46.679 shrapnel from a grenade because I've seen his shoulder and 1167 01:04:46.719 --> 01:04:49.440 he definitely has grenade shrapnel. Whether the rest of the 1168 01:04:49.460 --> 01:04:51.039 story is true or not, I don't know. 1169 01:04:51.699 --> 01:04:55.389 You know, subsequent raids and we killed, you know, and 1170 01:04:55.650 --> 01:04:57.769 you can see him saying, you know, in the future, 1171 01:04:57.849 --> 01:05:00.510 I'd be a lot less inclined to doing it. But 1172 01:05:00.650 --> 01:05:03.449 as if there would be a series of events in 1173 01:05:03.510 --> 01:05:08.659 which they were killing, you know, prisoners, you know, there's 1174 01:05:08.699 --> 01:05:11.400 this dynamic. There's this, you know, we see it a 1175 01:05:11.420 --> 01:05:15.179 lot in World War I. where the machine gunner is 1176 01:05:15.239 --> 01:05:18.139 killing and killing, and finally the wave approaches, the machine 1177 01:05:18.179 --> 01:05:21.360 gunner stands up and tries to surrender, and they say, 1178 01:05:21.400 --> 01:05:24.739 too late, bub, and they kill the machine gunner. And 1179 01:05:24.780 --> 01:05:30.780 so there's this dynamic of, you know, you surrender too late, 1180 01:05:30.900 --> 01:05:33.920 or we don't take time to accept the surrender. There's 1181 01:05:33.960 --> 01:05:38.519 a big gray area in there. But, you know, you're right. 1182 01:05:38.539 --> 01:05:41.780 A lot of people are carrying a burden around, and 1183 01:05:41.800 --> 01:05:45.000 a lot of them I tell you, I believe this 1184 01:05:45.019 --> 01:05:49.280 with all my heart, a lot of them didn't happen. 1185 01:05:50.400 --> 01:05:53.500 And they believe it. And I'll give you a great example. 1186 01:05:53.519 --> 01:05:58.619 A police chief in Montana told me about one of 1187 01:05:58.699 --> 01:06:03.230 his police officers with a suicidal kid. And the cop 1188 01:06:03.269 --> 01:06:05.329 knows the kid. He's trying to talk him down. The 1189 01:06:05.630 --> 01:06:07.710 kid's got a gun under his chin. The cop's got 1190 01:06:07.750 --> 01:06:10.599 his gun out. And the kid says, okay, I won't 1191 01:06:10.619 -->

01:06:12.679 do it. The kid lowers his gun and the cop 1192 01:06:12.699 --> 01:06:15.940 lowers his gun. Boom, the kid kills himself. And the 1193 01:06:15.980 --> 01:06:19.619 cop said, I shot him. I had an accidental discharge. 1194 01:06:20.300 --> 01:06:22.800 I shot him. He said, no, you didn't. Your weapon 1195 01:06:22.840 --> 01:06:26.469 never fired. He said, no, no. I have a distinct memory. 1196 01:06:26.510 --> 01:06:28.969 I pulled the trigger. I felt the recoil. I shot him. No, 1197 01:06:29.010 --> 01:06:32.090 you didn't. And the chief said, we went to the 1198 01:06:32.130 --> 01:06:34.829 grand jury and we had to coach this guy. We said, 1199 01:06:34.949 --> 01:06:39.010 this is the truth. your weapon never fired. We can 1200 01:06:39.050 --> 01:06:41.860 prove it this way and this way. His weapon fired. 1201 01:06:41.900 --> 01:06:43.820 We prove it this way and this way. The injury 1202 01:06:43.860 --> 01:06:45.780 wound was such that it could not have been you. 1203 01:06:46.639 --> 01:06:48.820 You've got to go to the grand jury and tell 1204 01:06:48.880 --> 01:06:53.380 them the truth. So the chief said, he walked out 1205 01:06:53.420 --> 01:06:56.300 of the grand jury. He said what he was supposed 1206 01:06:56.340 --> 01:06:58.469 to say. He walked out of the grand jury, looked 1207 01:06:58.489 --> 01:07:01.110 at me and said, chief, are you sure I didn't 1208 01:07:01.150 --> 01:07:06.030 kill him? And so that's how powerful those memory distortions 1209 01:07:06.090 --> 01:07:10.059 can be. And And the solution is twofold. Number one, 1210 01:07:10.550 --> 01:07:12.690 to know these things are going to happen. And number two, 1211 01:07:13.550 --> 01:07:16.989 to conduct a debriefing afterwards to fill in those memory 1212 01:07:17.030 --> 01:07:20.829 gaps as sleep-deprived people. I'll give you another example. A 1213 01:07:20.869 --> 01:07:26.840 young cop in Indiana, just before the pandemic, call it 2019, 2018. 1214 01:07:26.840 --> 01:07:31.920 A young black officer, super squared away young man. He said, 1215 01:07:31.940 --> 01:07:33.940 you're right, things are out of control. He said, I've 1216 01:07:33.960 --> 01:07:37.139 been in three deadly force incidents. In just the last 1217 01:07:37.179 --> 01:07:40.840 two years. He said, in the last incident, a guy's 1218 01:07:40.960 --> 01:07:43.760 arms reach away and he pulls out a knife. Now, 1219 01:07:43.780 --> 01:07:46.059 you start a knife fight, arms reach away, you're probably 1220 01:07:46.079 --> 01:07:49.159 going to get cut. At some level, this cop says, 1221 01:07:49.280 --> 01:07:51.000 I'm going to get cut. I'm going to keep fighting. 1222 01:07:51.739 --> 01:07:54.599 He said, I drew and fired. Hit the spinal cord. 1223 01:07:55.440 --> 01:07:58.010 Bad guy dropped like a bag of rocks. Almost never 1224 01:07:58.050 --> 01:08:00.119 happens in real life. You know, I tell people, you know, 1225 01:08:00.409 --> 01:08:03.130 how many times on

TV you've seen somebody shot with 1226 01:08:03.190 --> 01:08:06.500 a pistol and they fly? Yeah. And I said, all 1227 01:08:06.539 --> 01:08:09.099 you hunters out there, all you hunters, you know, you 1228 01:08:09.139 --> 01:08:12.659 shoot a 150-pound deer with a high-powered rifle. Have you 1229 01:08:12.880 --> 01:08:16.039 ever seen the deer fly away? You know why the 1230 01:08:16.060 --> 01:08:18.819 deer don't fly away? Because you don't watch TV, right? 1231 01:08:19.300 --> 01:08:21.850 And so the idea that you shoot them one time, 1232 01:08:21.890 --> 01:08:26.170 they fall down, it almost never happens. But if you 1233 01:08:26.210 --> 01:08:28.310 put it in the spinal cord, all the way from 1234 01:08:28.350 --> 01:08:31.449 here down to there, he's going down. And so the 1235 01:08:31.489 --> 01:08:35.060 cop said I was never touched. but I had this 1236 01:08:35.279 --> 01:08:39.859 vivid memory of blood on my hands. I kept looking 1237 01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:43.119 for the blood on my hands. Cops said the peer 1238 01:08:43.140 --> 01:08:45.079 support guy came and linked up. One of the good 1239 01:08:45.119 --> 01:08:48.439 things that's being done today is the whole peer support thing. 1240 01:08:48.560 --> 01:08:51.590 Peer support guy linked up with me. We're headed to 1241 01:08:51.609 --> 01:08:55.869 the hospital. And we tell people, always go to the hospital. 1242 01:08:56.909 --> 01:09:00.680 Set this guy aside for a minute. I young police 1243 01:09:00.770 --> 01:09:05.119 officer in Utah is telling me about there's a crime 1244 01:09:05.180 --> 01:09:07.800 scene cops are on the crime scene they said like 1245 01:09:07.840 --> 01:09:11.300 flies and a turd just all over traffic's backed up 1246 01:09:11.420 --> 01:09:14.340 I'm controlling traffic somebody pulls out of traffic and starts 1247 01:09:14.399 --> 01:09:16.960 accelerating he's going to plow through those cops he's going 1248 01:09:16.979 --> 01:09:20.180 to kill a bunch of cops So this guy sidesteps 1249 01:09:20.279 --> 01:09:24.800 and shoots the driver and saves a lot of lives, 1250 01:09:24.880 --> 01:09:27.289 killed the guy. He said, I went home that night. 1251 01:09:28.109 --> 01:09:31.949 I took my pants off, and the entire left side 1252 01:09:31.970 --> 01:09:34.229 of my leg is just black. I don't mean black 1253 01:09:34.270 --> 01:09:37.149 and blue. I said black. He'd been hit by a 1254 01:09:37.210 --> 01:09:40.050 car and didn't know it. So those are the kind 1255 01:09:40.090 --> 01:09:42.220 of things that are happening. So go back to it. 1256 01:09:42.300 --> 01:09:44.560 They're headed to the hospital to get checked out. He's fine, 1257 01:09:44.579 --> 01:09:46.939 but he said, on the way to the hospital, the 1258 01:09:46.960 --> 01:09:51.109 peer support guy said, dude, for the last time. There 1259 01:09:51.449 --> 01:09:55.289 is no blood on your hands. Stop asking me. So 1260 01:09:55.310 --> 01:09:58.970 that's how powerful those kind of memory distortions can be, 1261 01:09:59.720 --> 01:10:03.939 and how vital it is to, number one, understand they happen, 1262 01:10:03.979 --> 01:10:08.479 and number two, to be able to debrief them. Because sleep-deprived, 1263 01:10:08.720 --> 01:10:12.800 stressed-out people have these crazy things in their head And 1264 01:10:12.840 --> 01:10:15.380 then they live. And so you've done an AAR. You 1265 01:10:15.420 --> 01:10:18.199 have a military background. You understand the idea of doing 1266 01:10:18.229 --> 01:10:23.229 an after-action review. In training, the majority of the learning 1267 01:10:23.270 --> 01:10:26.569 in a training event happens afterwards in the AAR. Everybody 1268 01:10:26.630 --> 01:10:29.350 talks all the way through. We fill in the gaps. Well, 1269 01:10:29.369 --> 01:10:33.289 how much more so do we learn the lessons in 1270 01:10:33.369 --> 01:10:35.659 real life and fill in the memory gaps, sort out 1271 01:10:35.680 --> 01:10:39.460 the memory distortions? So go back to our drone operator. 1272 01:10:40.500 --> 01:10:45.500 Are they doing a debrief? And is there a diffusion 1273 01:10:45.560 --> 01:10:49.539 of responsibility? Is there kind of a leader standing over 1274 01:10:49.560 --> 01:10:52.680 his shoulder, holding him accountable for dropping that grenade? Or 1275 01:10:53.439 --> 01:10:57.050 is he making the decision on his own? There's a 1276 01:10:57.069 --> 01:10:59.550 lot of variables in that whole equation. And then, like 1277 01:10:59.590 --> 01:11:02.869 you said, when it starts moving into the realms of people, 1278 01:11:05.189 --> 01:11:08.640 maybe it went on ship after ship and they killed everybody, 1279 01:11:08.659 --> 01:11:11.659 but odds are it falls somewhere in between. 1280 01:11:13.529 --> 01:11:16.869 I think it's interesting because I forget if it's on 1281 01:11:16.909 --> 01:11:19.470 killing or on combat. You were talking about that, like 1282 01:11:19.529 --> 01:11:25.680 drone operators. They go, they sit in a cargo container 1283 01:11:25.729 --> 01:11:28.380 with a computer in it. They blow somebody up and 1284 01:11:28.399 --> 01:11:30.380 then they go home that night and have dinner with 1285 01:11:30.399 --> 01:11:34.859 their family. But at least back when the book was written, 1286 01:11:34.899 --> 01:11:37.539 that's like a Reaper drone where they're blowing somebody up 1287 01:11:37.619 --> 01:11:40.260 from a few thousand feet in the air. It's basically 1288 01:11:40.300 --> 01:11:43.960 just a pixel on a screen. But the new drones now, 1289 01:11:44.180 --> 01:11:47.729 they're either crashing the drone directly into something they know 1290 01:11:47.770 --> 01:11:50.369 they killed, or like I said, they're hovering over and 1291 01:11:50.390 --> 01:11:55.510 just watching this all happen. I imagine that it's probably 1292 01:11:55.550 --> 01:11:58.710 different than snipers, because I feel like snipers are almost 1293 01:11:58.890 -->

01:12:02.180 selected to be the kind, because you would think snipers 1294 01:12:02.199 --> 01:12:04.479 would be the same way. You're at a long distance, 1295 01:12:04.560 --> 01:12:06.779 but you can see the facial features of the guy 1296 01:12:06.800 --> 01:12:10.600 you're shooting, usually. But they've been through so much training, 1297 01:12:10.670 --> 01:12:12.729 the type of people who wouldn't take that kind of 1298 01:12:12.789 --> 01:12:15.750 shot have already been weeded out by training. But I 1299 01:12:15.789 --> 01:12:18.149 feel like with drone operators, they're probably just picking up 1300 01:12:18.189 --> 01:12:20.810 whoever can control the drone and, you know, make it to, 1301 01:12:20.840 --> 01:12:24.279 I mean, I don't know what the Ukrainian military's after 1302 01:12:24.380 --> 01:12:26.739 action report looks like, because I haven't, you know. 1303 01:12:26.899 --> 01:12:29.979 Discussed it with them. But you're right, the only historical 1304 01:12:30.020 --> 01:12:33.189 analogy we could probably find are snipers, and it kind 1305 01:12:33.210 --> 01:12:36.340 of breaks down. So So it is something kind of 1306 01:12:36.380 --> 01:12:41.119 fundamentally new until you come to the Nazis or somebody 1307 01:12:41.159 --> 01:12:46.710 like that who's just executing prisoners. And then when you 1308 01:12:47.250 --> 01:12:49.350 take it from that perspective, it's not new at all. 1309 01:12:50.510 --> 01:12:53.789 I'll tell you, at the end of the war, those 1310 01:12:53.989 --> 01:12:57.630 Germans who came home, who were on the Eastern Front, 1311 01:12:57.670 --> 01:13:00.840 who fought the Russians, and it was It was evil 1312 01:13:00.899 --> 01:13:04.239 versus evil on that front. It was evil to the 1313 01:13:04.279 --> 01:13:08.819 second power, you know. The Nazis versus the Soviets. It 1314 01:13:08.880 --> 01:13:11.739 was evil to the second power. And here's these guys 1315 01:13:11.779 --> 01:13:14.140 that are just normal people caught up in this thing, 1316 01:13:14.180 --> 01:13:17.260 and they come home, and they got on with their lives. 1317 01:13:17.680 --> 01:13:19.260 You know, it's not like they lived the rest of 1318 01:13:19.279 --> 01:13:21.779 their life in some kind of trauma, but maybe they 1319 01:13:21.800 --> 01:13:23.800 sat down and got drunk one night and told their 1320 01:13:23.840 --> 01:13:25.159 friends about it. Yeah. 1321 01:13:25.420 --> 01:13:28.649 Well, I mean, like my uncle, like he was... He 1322 01:13:28.670 --> 01:13:31.310 was Max Sog in Vietnam. He was one of the 1323 01:13:31.350 --> 01:13:34.020 guys they would just send out into the jungle for 1324 01:13:34.029 --> 01:13:35.859 a month or two, and he would come back. I 1325 01:13:36.279 --> 01:13:38.000 don't know if he did it personally, but he told 1326 01:13:38.100 --> 01:13:40.500 us that a couple guys in his unit were one 1327 01:13:40.560 --> 01:13:43.880 of the ear necklace people. He was out there doing 1328 01:13:43.920 --> 01:13:49.090 some real hardcore stuff. Once again, you'd never know. It's 1329 01:13:49.130 --> 01:13:51.590 kind of the thing, because I see it a lot online. 1330 01:13:51.630 --> 01:13:52.130 I'm actually. 1331 01:13:52.729 --> 01:13:56.069 I'm part of this one subreddit on Reddit. It's called 1332 01:13:56.130 --> 01:13:58.609 just boot things. And it's people making fun of people 1333 01:13:58.649 --> 01:14:01.430 who were like newly in the military, you know, doing 1334 01:14:01.449 --> 01:14:04.210 the cringy things that, you know, a 19 year old 1335 01:14:04.270 --> 01:14:08.850 with his $ 10, 000 signing bonus does. And it's always like the, 1336 01:14:09.439 --> 01:14:12.579 you know, don't test me. I'm a killer kind of thing. 1337 01:14:12.619 --> 01:14:14.979 And it's like you, you were at base security for 1338 01:14:15.180 --> 01:14:19.229 three years before your medical discharge. Like, It's never the 1339 01:14:19.250 --> 01:14:22.069 guys that actually went out there and like actually killed 1340 01:14:22.109 --> 01:14:24.000 people that wear those kinds of t-shirts. 1341 01:14:25.140 --> 01:14:28.720 It's interesting you talk about that. First off, some people 1342 01:14:28.760 --> 01:14:31.100 may not know the ear necklace is the idea that 1343 01:14:31.119 --> 01:14:33.779 you cut off the enemy's ears, string them up and 1344 01:14:34.140 --> 01:14:37.390 wear them. And that's another one of those, you know, 1345 01:14:37.449 --> 01:14:42.739 maybe an urban myth and to whatever degree it happened. Yeah. But, 1346 01:14:42.810 --> 01:14:45.130 you know, to talk about there were guys in the 1347 01:14:45.210 --> 01:14:48.649 unit who maybe did that. And that's kind of the 1348 01:14:48.810 --> 01:14:50.170 ear necklace concept. 1349 01:14:50.489 --> 01:14:53.149 I mean, scalping, it's basically the same thing, you know. 1350 01:14:53.250 --> 01:14:56.170 It happened for, you know, generations on the frontier. 1351 01:14:56.189 --> 01:15:00.720 But, you know, it's funny, the scalping, the historical dynamics 1352 01:15:00.779 --> 01:15:03.479 on the scalping, as I understand it, always be careful 1353 01:15:03.500 --> 01:15:07.550 talking to historians, is during the French-Indian War. They wanted 1354 01:15:07.569 --> 01:15:11.649 to be sure that the Indians were actually not killing 1355 01:15:11.770 --> 01:15:16.890 other Indians. And so the scalp was proof because the 1356 01:15:16.909 --> 01:15:20.350 hair was different. And that the nature of the hair 1357 01:15:20.409 --> 01:15:22.810 could prove the nature of who it was that you killed. 1358 01:15:22.890 --> 01:15:25.810 And then it all begins with that, you know, okay, maybe. 1359 01:15:26.850 --> 01:15:31.920 But kind of moving on to what you were talking about, 1360 01:15:33.960 --> 01:15:36.489 the subreddit. What was that again? 1361 01:15:36.729 --> 01:15:39.810 It's called, I actually, I pulled up a few select 1362 01:15:39.869 --> 01:15:42.939

pages just to show you, because I anticipated this part 1363 01:15:43.000 --> 01:15:48.439 of the, so here we go, share screen. Some of 1364 01:15:48.460 --> 01:15:55.680 these are pretty great. It says, for the people listening, 1365 01:15:55.739 --> 01:15:57.300 it says, when you look up and see the missiles 1366 01:15:57.359 --> 01:16:00.619 coming and start wondering if the Camaro was worth it. 1367 01:16:02.260 --> 01:16:05.079 That's pretty good. I thought the Camaro was worth it. 1368 01:16:06.329 --> 01:16:09.210 Here you've got, let's see, one, two, three, four. You've 1369 01:16:09.250 --> 01:16:13.510 got six people in Harris Jewelers all looking at engagement rings. 1370 01:16:15.329 --> 01:16:20.260 What are they going to do with their bonus? Separation anxiety. 1371 01:16:20.819 --> 01:16:23.619 Recruit kicked out of Air Force for separation anxiety. The 1372 01:16:23.659 --> 01:16:25.380 comment says, this is the most Air Force shit I've 1373 01:16:25.439 --> 01:16:27.439 ever read in my entire life. 1374 01:16:27.920 --> 01:16:28.819 Yeah. 1375 01:16:30.779 --> 01:16:34.000 It was a military bases go on lockdown for dealerships 1376 01:16:34.119 --> 01:16:37.319 outside the base. I'm never going to financially recover from this. 1377 01:16:37.510 --> 01:16:42.529 Because that's one of the running jokes in that community 1378 01:16:42.590 --> 01:16:44.060 is that the new recruit with their- There really is. 1379 01:16:44.069 --> 01:16:46.069 I mean, you built your base codes on lockdown. There's 1380 01:16:46.130 --> 01:16:49.350 a dealership right outside the front. 1381 01:16:49.390 --> 01:16:53.970 The Camaro dealership selling the 29% APR to the new recruits. 1382 01:16:56.310 --> 01:16:59.939 You saw that one already. And then I figured as 1383 01:16:59.960 --> 01:17:02.100 an officer yourself, you would appreciate this one. 1384 01:17:02.119 --> 01:17:04.920 I'm a prior service sergeant. 1385 01:17:18.619 --> 01:17:20.439 For those listening, it says, Sergeant, I just got a 1386 01:17:20.479 --> 01:17:22.220 ticket on base. And he says, send me a picture. 1387 01:17:22.239 --> 01:17:24.239 And the guy sends him a selfie. And the sergeant responds, 1388 01:17:24.399 --> 01:17:25.800 of the ticket. Of the ticket. You know, it's funny. 1389 01:17:25.819 --> 01:17:29.470 I enlisted in just a quick more story in 1974. 1390 01:17:29.470 --> 01:17:39.880 And very quickly, I became Radar O'Reilly. The First Sergeant 1391 01:17:39.939 --> 01:17:43.029 found out that I could type and was a reasonably 1392 01:17:43.090 --> 01:17:45.630 smart guy. And I was in the orderly room and 1393 01:17:46.470 --> 01:17:48.930 I got a ticket one time and came in and 1394 01:17:48.949 --> 01:17:51.430 told the First Sergeant. One phone call and boom, he 1395 01:17:51.470 --> 01:17:53.600 made it go away. And those days are gone. He 1396 01:17:53.619 --> 01:17:55.739 was an amazing guy. He was a Sante Raider and 1397 01:17:55.859 --> 01:17:59.560 pretty incredible guy. But that was magic when the First 1398 01:17:59.579 --> 01:18:03.319 Sergeant calls and makes a ticket go away. In reality, 1399 01:18:03.500 --> 01:18:06.039 you give the sergeant a picture of your ticket, not 1400 01:18:06.060 --> 01:18:07.979 much is going to happen today. 1401 01:18:08.060 --> 01:18:09.979 I feel like as a first sergeant on any kind 1402 01:18:10.039 --> 01:18:11.810 of base, one of the first things you have to 1403 01:18:11.850 --> 01:18:14.310 do is get acquainted with all the local law enforcement 1404 01:18:14.329 --> 01:18:16.149 officers because sooner or later you are going to get 1405 01:18:16.189 --> 01:18:19.869 that call. Some bar fight or some ticket or some 1406 01:18:20.529 --> 01:18:23.899 shenanigans a bunch of drunken 19-year-olds get up to at 1407 01:18:23.949 --> 01:18:24.729 night on leave. 1408 01:18:25.060 --> 01:18:28.000 Let's go back to the myth. And it kind of 1409 01:18:28.039 --> 01:18:30.899 moves back. And we've all heard about 22 veterans a 1410 01:18:30.939 --> 01:18:35.260 day take their life. And to a certain degree that's true, 1411 01:18:35.539 --> 01:18:38.500 but I want you to examine that as a historian. 1412 01:18:39.560 --> 01:18:45.029 Veteran means anybody who ever served. During the Cold War, 1413 01:18:45.850 --> 01:18:49.550 a very large portion of every 18-year-old kid was drafted 1414 01:18:49.609 --> 01:18:53.970 and they served. So throughout the late 40s, the entire 50s, 1415 01:18:54.010 --> 01:18:58.569 the entire 60s, early 70s, we drafted all these kids 1416 01:18:58.609 --> 01:19:00.699 for the Cold War and they were veterans. They served 1417 01:19:00.739 --> 01:19:04.680 for two years and they got out. And so Elvis 1418 01:19:04.739 --> 01:19:09.279 Presley was a veteran. And now, All of them are 70, 80, 1419 01:19:09.279 --> 01:19:14.939 90 years old. They're Cold War veterans. And suicide among 1420 01:19:14.979 --> 01:19:19.600 the elderly is a totally different subject. Every suicide is 1421 01:19:19.699 --> 01:19:23.920 a tragedy. But suicide among the elderly is very, very high. 1422 01:19:24.779 --> 01:19:27.399 We've got the old guy that's got Alzheimer's who just 1423 01:19:28.039 --> 01:19:31.300 goes outside and saves his family the expense. I mean, 1424 01:19:31.699 --> 01:19:35.020 suicide among the elderly, we've got whole cultures where it's 1425 01:19:35.079 --> 01:19:38.550 the elderly's job to go ahead and and take themselves 1426 01:19:38.619 --> 01:19:42.050 out of the picture. So these 22 veterans a day, 1427 01:19:43.510 --> 01:19:46.210 one study said only two of them are from the GWAT. 1428 01:19:47.149 --> 01:19:50.829 And that doesn't mean they're not a tragedy. And only 1429 01:19:51.010 --> 01:19:54.689 one of them was deployed. And of that one, probably 1430 01:19:54.710 --> 01:19:58.250 the only one ever left the FOB. So the idea 1431 01:19:58.270 --> 01:20:02.939 that these 22 veterans a day are all GWAT veterans,

1432 01:20:03.020 --> 01:20:05.619 who are all veterans of close combat, who are all 1433 01:20:05.640 --> 01:20:09.289 taking their lives, is this misrepresentation. So I tell you, 1434 01:20:10.850 --> 01:20:14.649 the Vietnam veteran really was spit on. I think I 1435 01:20:14.689 --> 01:20:17.710 validated in my book on killing. We got great research. 1436 01:20:17.729 --> 01:20:21.609 The idea that the big early Green Beret coming home 1437 01:20:21.649 --> 01:20:24.930 and being spit on by the hippie, it really did happen. 1438 01:20:25.510 --> 01:20:28.310 One of my soldiers told me, his mom told him 1439 01:20:28.409 --> 01:20:32.439 one time about how they did that, and she told him, 1440 01:20:32.529 --> 01:20:34.859 she said, I am so ashamed of what we did. 1441 01:20:35.680 --> 01:20:38.680 So the Vietnam veteran really was spit on. The anti-war 1442 01:20:38.739 --> 01:20:45.750 movement attacked the individual. And the anti-war movement focused their 1443 01:20:45.869 --> 01:20:49.930 energy all on the individual that allowed themselves to be 1444 01:20:49.970 --> 01:20:55.039 drafted and participated in the process. So the anti-war movement 1445 01:20:55.140 --> 01:21:00.199 for the GWAD in the current era is that they're 1446 01:21:00.220 --> 01:21:03.859 all broken. and they're all suicidal, and 22 veterans a 1447 01:21:03.899 --> 01:21:08.979 day are taking their life, is this tragic misrepresentation, counting 1448 01:21:09.000 --> 01:21:14.779 all of those Cold War veterans that are 70, 80, 1449 01:21:14.779 --> 01:21:18.819 90 years old, who are skewing all of the data 1450 01:21:18.899 --> 01:21:21.640 on all of our veteran stuff. And then the idea 1451 01:21:21.659 --> 01:21:27.619 of how many of our veterans actually contract PTSD in 1452 01:21:27.659 --> 01:21:30.340 the war. I do a lot of work internationally, and 1453 01:21:31.060 --> 01:21:34.159 There's always some British psychiatrists as well. The British troops 1454 01:21:34.199 --> 01:21:38.560 run at 5% PTSD. Why are the Americans so much higher? 1455 01:21:39.380 --> 01:21:42.750 And the Dutch study, their troops in Afghanistan, 5%. We 1456 01:21:42.789 --> 01:21:45.770 keep coming up with this 5% PTSD number. Why are 1457 01:21:45.789 --> 01:21:49.609 the Americans so much higher? When we actually examined the 1458 01:21:49.649 --> 01:21:53.090 data and my presentations, I put up a screenshot straight 1459 01:21:53.130 --> 01:21:59.050 off of the VA website, PTSD and in Iraq and Afghanistan. 1460 01:21:59.229 --> 01:22:04.010 And the numbers come out to about 5%, 100% disabled PTSD. 1461 01:22:04.670 --> 01:22:07.010 But as you know, a lot of them never left 1462 01:22:07.050 --> 01:22:13.609 the FOB. And they're claiming PTSD. And no amount of 1463 01:22:13.729 --> 01:22:17.350 money is worth a lifetime of mental illness. You're not 1464 01:22:17.399 --> 01:22:22.760 getting some get over by getting 100%. But the actual 1465 01:22:22.819 --> 01:22:28.460 numbers of those 100% contracted PTSD cases Service-related, you know, 1466 01:22:28.479 --> 01:22:33.300 we're very, very generous to our veterans. And my son 1467 01:22:33.600 --> 01:22:38.020 just retired Air Force Combat Controller, nine combat tours, three 1468 01:22:38.039 --> 01:22:41.720 Bronze Stars, dropped to an ODA on every deployment. My 1469 01:22:41.779 --> 01:22:45.340 grandson just came home from a deployment overseas, got an 1470 01:22:45.500 --> 01:22:48.140 ARCOM with C device. I never heard of that before, 1471 01:22:48.310 --> 01:22:54.130 under combat conditions. But the idea that they all have 1472 01:22:54.210 --> 01:22:58.569 PTSD and they're all suicidal, is one of the great 1473 01:22:58.789 --> 01:23:02.430 misrepresentations of the veterans in this war. And just take 1474 01:23:02.630 --> 01:23:07.800 the 22 veterans a day, examine it carefully. And if 1475 01:23:07.920 --> 01:23:10.819 we gave it, you know, instead of spitting out veterans, 1476 01:23:10.859 --> 01:23:13.420 we said, thank you for your service. It's all great. 1477 01:23:14.539 --> 01:23:18.380 And welcome home is better. But then we turn around 1478 01:23:18.439 --> 01:23:21.039 and say, you all have PTSD and you're all suicidal 1479 01:23:21.079 --> 01:23:24.079 and you're all broken. When the truth is just the opposite. 1480 01:23:24.159 --> 01:23:28.470 They're a new generation. greatest generation they have post-traumatic growth 1481 01:23:29.689 --> 01:23:32.590 and and the problem is that there's a whole generation 1482 01:23:32.630 --> 01:23:34.550 we talked about that before they get punched in the 1483 01:23:34.590 --> 01:23:37.300 nose they walk back in the er their heart starts 1484 01:23:37.340 --> 01:23:41.039 pounding they don't know what to do about it nobody 1485 01:23:41.100 --> 01:23:44.699 wants to be broken nobody wants a disorder is i 1486 01:23:44.739 --> 01:23:48.340 got ptsd i'm broken when the world war ii generation 1487 01:23:48.380 --> 01:23:50.899 and their kids they said what doesn't kill me makes 1488 01:23:50.939 --> 01:23:54.060 me stronger and they would push on through it uh 1489 01:23:54.340 --> 01:23:57.779 a uh I use the example of an Arkansas state trooper, 1490 01:23:58.310 --> 01:24:00.970 first gunfight, bad guys down, he's alive, happy, end of 1491 01:24:00.989 --> 01:24:04.850 the story. A week later, he's sitting in the bleachers 1492 01:24:04.909 --> 01:24:07.970 with his wife, watching their daughter at a swim meet. 1493 01:24:08.050 --> 01:24:10.050 Swim meet. What do you suppose for a swim meet? 1494 01:24:10.970 --> 01:24:14.710 Stutter's gun goes off. He said, when? I didn't expect it. Boom. 1495 01:24:15.409 --> 01:24:19.489 Heart pounded, gasping for air, drenched with sweat. He didn't 1496 01:24:19.520 --> 01:24:20.920 know what was going on. His wife thought he was 1497 01:24:20.939 --> 01:24:24.520 having a heart attack. But now, imagine if he'd have said, 1498 01:24:25.569 --> 01:24:27.529 I

can never go to the swim meet again. I 1499 01:24:27.550 --> 01:24:30.939 can't qualify anymore. I hate Fourth of July. I hate 1500 01:24:30.989 --> 01:24:36.180 loud noises. One of the manifestations of PTSD is trying 1501 01:24:36.220 --> 01:24:41.229 to avoid symptoms, trying to avoid circumstances and events that 1502 01:24:41.270 --> 01:24:43.010 would remind you of the event. So he spends the 1503 01:24:43.050 --> 01:24:47.810 rest of his life trying to avoid loud noises. That's broken. 1504 01:24:47.850 --> 01:24:49.430 He didn't do that. He went to the range. He 1505 01:24:49.489 --> 01:24:53.289 pushed on through it. He knew, I got a problem here. 1506 01:24:53.310 --> 01:24:55.590 Went right out to the range. He qualified. He pushed 1507 01:24:55.649 --> 01:24:56.159 on through it. 1508 01:24:59.109 --> 01:25:00.770 Isn't that the new, well, at least one of the 1509 01:25:00.810 --> 01:25:05.520 new theories about treatment is exposure therapy. They'll use the 1510 01:25:05.579 --> 01:25:10.779 VR headset and basically recreate whatever the traumatic incident is 1511 01:25:10.880 --> 01:25:14.380 that the person is complaining about and let them relive it. 1512 01:25:14.399 --> 01:25:16.869 That's the way that a lot of them now can 1513 01:25:17.130 --> 01:25:21.060 get through Exposure. 1514 01:25:20.159 --> 01:25:23.680 Therapy, let's talk about that. That's important because exposure therapy, 1515 01:25:23.760 --> 01:25:25.460 let me talk about a couple of therapies. One of 1516 01:25:25.479 --> 01:25:31.310 them is EMDR, eye movement desensitization reprocessing. And it sounds crazy, 1517 01:25:31.350 --> 01:25:34.890 but what you've got is you've got the midbrain reacting 1518 01:25:34.930 --> 01:25:37.670 when you don't want it to. And the midbrain is 1519 01:25:37.869 --> 01:25:41.609 sympathetic nervous systems kicking off, fight or flight mechanisms kicking in. 1520 01:25:42.180 --> 01:25:44.979 The midbrain can only do one thing at a time. 1521 01:25:45.899 --> 01:25:49.260 And so you're following a visual stimulus. and you talk 1522 01:25:49.319 --> 01:25:53.729 about it, and you think about it, but the midbrain's busy. 1523 01:25:54.590 --> 01:25:58.729 And just one or two EMDR sessions, and you separate 1524 01:25:58.750 --> 01:26:01.590 the memory from the emotions. The brain is always rewiring. 1525 01:26:01.630 --> 01:26:06.170 The brain is, the word's plastic, but that isn't adequately explained. 1526 01:26:06.590 --> 01:26:09.880 It's like a bunch of spaghetti noodles that are always 1527 01:26:09.960 --> 01:26:13.180 moving around. And so you think about it a few times, 1528 01:26:13.220 --> 01:26:16.239 you talk about it a few times, without that, the 1529 01:26:16.319 --> 01:26:19.350 puppy coming through the screen door without the sympathetic nerves 1530 01:26:19.590 --> 01:26:24.010 kicking in. And boom, you separated the memory from the emotion. 1531 01:26:24.029 --> 01:26:26.170 I'll give you a case after case.

I was on 1532 01:26:26.210 --> 01:26:29.909 a panel at Fleet Week at San Francisco, and it 1533 01:26:29.949 --> 01:26:34.029 immediately became a discussion at EMDR. So another technique that 1534 01:26:34.060 --> 01:26:38.239 they have is a sympathetic nerve block. They actually block 1535 01:26:38.279 --> 01:26:41.659 the sympathetic nerves so that you're not capable of having 1536 01:26:41.699 --> 01:26:44.460 a fight-or-flight response. You think about it, you talk about it. 1537 01:26:44.520 --> 01:26:47.699 By the time the nerve block is done, you've separated 1538 01:26:47.720 --> 01:26:50.560 the memory from the emotion. So go back to exposure therapy. 1539 01:26:51.539 --> 01:26:56.260 A Vietnam vet told me he came home and somebody 1540 01:26:56.279 --> 01:26:58.939 threw a firecracker and he hit the deck. And his 1541 01:26:58.979 --> 01:27:03.619 dad was a World War II vet. This guy hit 1542 01:27:03.659 --> 01:27:05.670 the deck, he's got no idea what's going on, and 1543 01:27:05.710 --> 01:27:08.590 his dad says, ha, he said, that'll go away in 1544 01:27:08.609 --> 01:27:11.699 a little while, it's normal. And having that World War 1545 01:27:11.739 --> 01:27:14.060 II vets, you know, the noise goes off, he hits 1546 01:27:14.100 --> 01:27:16.439 the deck, World War II, it's normal, that'll go away. 1547 01:27:18.399 --> 01:27:21.439 And so that's kind of exposure therapy, if you will. 1548 01:27:21.819 --> 01:27:25.670 But here's what you've got to do. You'd be exposed 1549 01:27:25.710 --> 01:27:29.810 to the event without the sympathetic nerve system kicking off. 1550 01:27:29.850 --> 01:27:34.510 How do you control that? Breathing is one. But even 1551 01:27:34.550 --> 01:27:37.470 better than breathing is taking a big swig of water. 1552 01:27:41.470 --> 01:27:44.949 So you go through the exposure therapy, you experience the event, 1553 01:27:45.090 --> 01:27:48.949 and you remain calm. So people think a video game 1554 01:27:49.810 --> 01:27:51.289 is going to do it for them. They think a 1555 01:27:51.329 --> 01:27:54.449 war movie is going to do it for them. And 1556 01:27:54.470 --> 01:27:56.569 the war movie gets you pumped up and hyped up, 1557 01:27:56.609 --> 01:27:59.850 and your sympathetic nervous system is kicking off. The video 1558 01:27:59.880 --> 01:28:02.529 game has got you fired up and pumped up. And 1559 01:28:02.609 --> 01:28:07.640 you never separate the memory from the emotions. You continue 1560 01:28:07.720 --> 01:28:11.520 to feed... that dynamic of the memory of the event 1561 01:28:12.199 --> 01:28:17.539 creates this physiological arousal. So exposure therapy is fine, but 1562 01:28:17.560 --> 01:28:20.210 it's got to be done right. And it starts with 1563 01:28:20.550 --> 01:28:22.510 maybe a little bit, and it builds its way up 1564 01:28:22.550 --> 01:28:25.630 like snakes. You have a fear of snakes. And you 1565 01:28:25.649 --> 01:28:28.470 might see pictures of snakes until you're sick of it. 1566 01:28:28.550 --> 01:28:30.569 And then you might have an actual snake in an 1567 01:28:30.630 --> 01:28:33.630 aquarium on the other side of the room until you're 1568 01:28:33.649 --> 01:28:36.479 bored and you're eating. One of the best ways is eating. 1569 01:28:37.289 --> 01:28:40.659 Eating is, you got sympathetic is fight or flight, Parasympathetic 1570 01:28:41.000 --> 01:28:45.199 eating is one of the most fundamental. I'm calm. I 1571 01:28:45.239 --> 01:28:48.939 got no problem with this. Laughter. Laughter is one of 1572 01:28:48.960 --> 01:28:54.439 the most powerful tools we have. Laughter is straight up 1573 01:28:54.539 --> 01:28:58.210 parasympathetic processes that allows us to say, This has no 1574 01:28:58.289 --> 01:29:01.649 power over me. I know your podcast got lots of laughter. 1575 01:29:01.670 --> 01:29:05.739 That was always my response. Like whenever like high tension, 1576 01:29:05.760 --> 01:29:08.479 like the few near fatal accidents and times I've been 1577 01:29:08.539 --> 01:29:12.079 shot at, like I either get one or two, like mom, 1578 01:29:12.300 --> 01:29:15.680 I'm a shiver or a laugher. Usually one or two 1579 01:29:15.720 --> 01:29:17.760 are the same. Like I'm always, I always laugh. Like 1580 01:29:17.859 --> 01:29:20.720 after I crashed the snowmobile, like the camp counselor came 1581 01:29:20.760 --> 01:29:23.189 like running because he saw the whole thing. And like, 1582 01:29:23.250 --> 01:29:25.899 I'm laying there on my ass with two broken wrists and, 1583 01:29:26.449 --> 01:29:27.930 And he shuts off the thing and he's like, are 1584 01:29:27.949 --> 01:29:30.189 you all right? And I said, I wonder if this 1585 01:29:30.250 --> 01:29:33.069 is going to make my car insurance go up. Literally 1586 01:29:33.109 --> 01:29:35.750 the first thing I said after almost breaking my neck 1587 01:29:35.829 --> 01:29:36.930 at 50 miles an hour. 1588 01:29:37.189 --> 01:29:41.539 See, this is such a positive. Instead of saying, I 1589 01:29:41.560 --> 01:29:45.819 got PTSD, I'm broken. You laughed in the face of danger. 1590 01:29:45.840 --> 01:29:51.779 You confronted it with humor. And laughter is one of 1591 01:29:51.800 --> 01:29:55.039 the most powerful tools. Laughter says this has no power 1592 01:29:55.220 --> 01:29:58.420 over me. If I can laugh at it, then it 1593 01:29:58.460 --> 01:30:01.640 has no power over me. And so a generation that 1594 01:30:01.680 --> 01:30:04.010 can just laugh at it is one of the most 1595 01:30:04.050 --> 01:30:07.649 healing things we can do. But by itself, it's not sufficient. 1596 01:30:08.250 --> 01:30:10.670 We've got to continue with the process of separating the 1597 01:30:10.770 --> 01:30:14.109 memory from the emotion and not living in fear of 1598 01:30:14.170 --> 01:30:16.189 it popping up at a time when we don't want 1599 01:30:16.250 --> 01:30:22.100 it to. And so... Laughter has a great role, but 1600 01:30:22.399 --> 01:30:25.829 by itself, it's

not going to completely deal with it, 1601 01:30:25.939 --> 01:30:29.520 but it sure is the right way to respond to 1602 01:30:29.560 --> 01:30:32.050 a life and death event. And people think there's something 1603 01:30:32.090 --> 01:30:33.670 wrong with you when you're laughing at it. 1604 01:30:34.069 --> 01:30:37.670 Well, I mean, I'm naturally like drawn to adrenaline situations 1605 01:30:37.689 --> 01:30:39.670 to begin with. So that may just be a brain 1606 01:30:39.729 --> 01:30:41.090 wiring thing to begin with. 1607 01:30:41.310 --> 01:30:41.470 Yeah. 1608 01:30:42.140 --> 01:30:44.020 You know, I'm usually the one they send up on 1609 01:30:44.039 --> 01:30:46.840 the roof and the dangerous situation because I live for it. 1610 01:30:46.859 --> 01:30:48.319 You know, I like the little bit. I like the 1611 01:30:48.340 --> 01:30:50.119 thrill of danger to make the day a little bit 1612 01:30:50.140 --> 01:30:50.840 more interesting. 1613 01:30:51.399 --> 01:30:55.560 So the shaking is a great example of sympathetic nervous system, 1614 01:30:55.619 --> 01:30:58.810 that fight or flight of hormones flooding through your body. 1615 01:30:59.250 --> 01:31:01.729 And there's no way to use them. And so you 1616 01:31:01.770 --> 01:31:04.670 got this overload of fight or flight and the shaking 1617 01:31:04.750 --> 01:31:09.930 is normal. you know, the best way is to push 1618 01:31:10.029 --> 01:31:13.130 on through that, you know, set of push-ups or some 1619 01:31:13.170 --> 01:31:16.779 hard physical action or just go ahead and use your breathing. 1620 01:31:16.819 --> 01:31:19.340 The big swig of water, the big swig of water 1621 01:31:19.399 --> 01:31:22.260 is so powerful. If we just, your listeners, kind of 1622 01:31:22.319 --> 01:31:25.649 walk out the door with one tool, it's the fact 1623 01:31:25.670 --> 01:31:27.630 that that big swig of water is just such a 1624 01:31:27.710 --> 01:31:30.829 powerful tool to separate the memory from the emotion, to 1625 01:31:30.869 --> 01:31:35.340 control the to control that sympathetic nervous system arousal. Laughter is, 1626 01:31:35.609 --> 01:31:38.689 is nice. And laughter means you have the right mindset, 1627 01:31:39.340 --> 01:31:41.640 but the tool that you use then it's just take 1628 01:31:41.699 --> 01:31:43.840 a big swig of water, separate the memory from the 1629 01:31:43.880 --> 01:31:44.819 emotion or drive on. 1630 01:31:45.420 --> 01:31:47.640 It's fascinating. Cause you say that. Cause when I was young, 1631 01:31:47.659 --> 01:31:50.199 I used to have epilepsy. I had childhood epilepsy, so 1632 01:31:50.260 --> 01:31:52.020 I grew out of it, but like, I used to 1633 01:31:52.079 --> 01:31:56.680 get like almost seizures. Like I would feel like my 1634 01:31:56.739 --> 01:32:01.090 vision would distort my, my, uh, speech would slur, but like, 1635 01:32:01.130 --> 01:32:04.069 I wasn't like, I wasn't completely out of it. So 1636 01:32:04.130 --> 01:32:05.770 I could, I

could walk around, like I could like 1637 01:32:05.829 --> 01:32:11.529 get my parents and I, but I felt for some reason, 1638 01:32:11.609 --> 01:32:13.699 taking a drink of water would make it all stop. 1639 01:32:15.260 --> 01:32:18.579 Why doesn't everybody know that? This is another one of those, 1640 01:32:19.100 --> 01:32:21.619 one of those things, every human being ought to know, 1641 01:32:22.039 --> 01:32:25.920 you know, in Oriental cultures, when somebody gets upset in 1642 01:32:26.100 --> 01:32:29.789 Oriental culture, when somebody gets upset, The first thing to 1643 01:32:29.829 --> 01:32:32.189 do is hand them a glass of water. Of course, 1644 01:32:32.229 --> 01:32:38.430 that culture is kind of over-manifest controlling your emotions. This business, 1645 01:32:38.529 --> 01:32:42.369 it's fun. Why doesn't every human being know that one 1646 01:32:42.409 --> 01:32:44.829 of the tools to control that, you know, why didn't 1647 01:32:44.949 --> 01:32:49.949 everybody facing a potential epileptic seizure know the most powerful 1648 01:32:49.989 --> 01:32:51.619 thing I'd do is just get a bottle of water 1649 01:32:51.659 --> 01:32:53.640 and take a big swig of water. Now you found 1650 01:32:53.680 --> 01:32:56.869 it by yourself. We need to know that every human 1651 01:32:56.930 --> 01:32:58.750 being needs to know that we need like this little 1652 01:32:58.810 --> 01:33:02.090 instruction book that comes with us when we're born. 1653 01:33:02.869 --> 01:33:04.750 I mean, I can't say that's going to work for everyone. 1654 01:33:04.770 --> 01:33:06.430 So if you see someone having a seizure, don't try 1655 01:33:06.449 --> 01:33:08.689 to pour water down their throat. You may drown them, 1656 01:33:09.470 --> 01:33:12.380 especially if they're having a full on like convulsive seizure. 1657 01:33:12.399 --> 01:33:15.699 But like in my scenario, when I was like halfway there, 1658 01:33:15.720 --> 01:33:18.340 because like all the all the seizures I had that 1659 01:33:18.380 --> 01:33:21.529 were actually full seizures, like it's a blackout. It's like 1660 01:33:21.569 --> 01:33:23.430 I can remember a little bit before and I can 1661 01:33:23.449 --> 01:33:28.310 remember after. The middle is nothing. I can remember distinctly 1662 01:33:28.369 --> 01:33:32.079 walking around, but I sounded like I was just hammered. 1663 01:33:32.439 --> 01:33:35.960 My mind was racing. I used to get visual distortions. 1664 01:33:36.140 --> 01:33:38.159 I could look at something. I'd look at my computer 1665 01:33:38.199 --> 01:33:40.539 monitor and it would be normal size and then it 1666 01:33:40.560 --> 01:33:42.699 would be about the size of my phone. And then 1667 01:33:42.720 --> 01:33:44.979 it would just go back. I used to use a 1668 01:33:45.039 --> 01:33:47.149 nightlight too because I used to get lost in my 1669 01:33:47.199 --> 01:33:50.260 own room. Like, even though my door was only five 1670 01:33:50.300 --> 01:33:52.520 steps

away from my bed, like, I would just wander. 1671 01:33:52.560 --> 01:33:54.739 So I would look at the light, and if I 1672 01:33:54.760 --> 01:33:57.319 could see it, like, changing size, I knew, all right, 1673 01:33:57.340 --> 01:33:58.920 I need to take a drink of water to somehow 1674 01:33:58.979 --> 01:33:59.500 stop this. 1675 01:34:00.500 --> 01:34:01.260 That's so cool. 1676 01:34:01.779 --> 01:34:03.460 I don't know if it's the same, you know, the 1677 01:34:03.479 --> 01:34:06.279 same principle or not, but I found, you know, oddly enough, 1678 01:34:06.300 --> 01:34:09.300 that that helps alleviate my symptoms temporarily. 1679 01:34:09.420 --> 01:34:13.399 It's, you know, control of the sympathetic nervous system arousal. Just, 1680 01:34:13.899 --> 01:34:18.380 you know, and it's funny, what makes us humans, is 1681 01:34:18.420 --> 01:34:21.739 to control that. So we got fight or flight, and 1682 01:34:21.760 --> 01:34:24.760 then we got feed and breed. And it's called the 1683 01:34:24.800 --> 01:34:31.439 four Fs, fight, flight, feed, and reproduction. And it's like 1684 01:34:31.479 --> 01:34:35.479 this joke from this 1950s psychophysiology textbook, that function of 1685 01:34:35.500 --> 01:34:37.640 the midbrain can be thought of as the four Fs. 1686 01:34:37.699 --> 01:34:41.890 The four Fs are fight or flight, feeding, and reproduction. 1687 01:34:42.569 --> 01:34:46.130 And of course, the last F is, you know, so... 1688 01:34:47.399 --> 01:34:50.819 But if you look online and you look at feed 1689 01:34:50.859 --> 01:34:54.020 and breed, it's the most common term for the parasympathetic 1690 01:34:54.079 --> 01:34:59.239 nervous system. And it's also called rest and digest. So 1691 01:34:59.279 --> 01:35:01.439 one of the first things we learn as human beings 1692 01:35:02.560 --> 01:35:05.720 is not to crap ourselves. That's a pretty significant achievement. 1693 01:35:05.779 --> 01:35:08.600 We learn to control that. Animals don't control that. If 1694 01:35:08.640 --> 01:35:11.060 you house train a dog or potty train a kid, 1695 01:35:11.079 --> 01:35:13.920 that's not easy. Then about five years old, we learn 1696 01:35:13.939 --> 01:35:17.060 to control fight or flight to a degree. We learn 1697 01:35:17.079 --> 01:35:19.720 we can't choke Johnny out, we can't punch Johnny out, 1698 01:35:20.220 --> 01:35:23.399 no matter how mad he makes us. And then what 1699 01:35:23.439 --> 01:35:27.340 happens is, look, you've got sympathetic nervous system arousal, then 1700 01:35:27.359 --> 01:35:31.569 the parasympathetic backlash. It's feed and breed. And there is 1701 01:35:31.609 --> 01:35:36.630 a powerful drive to reproduction. When we talk about the 1702 01:35:36.710 --> 01:35:39.050 pillage of a city, we see rape as one of 1703 01:35:39.090 --> 01:35:43.989 the fundamental acts of war. The parasympathetic process, feed and breed, 1704 01:35:44.710 --> 01:35:48.609 A lot of people, crime victims, go home and seek 1705 01:35:48.770 --> 01:35:54.590 intimacy and they seek reassurance. First responders go home after 1706 01:35:54.670 --> 01:35:57.680 a life and death event and have very intense sex. 1707 01:35:57.779 --> 01:35:59.420 And a lot of them will talk to you about that. 1708 01:36:00.760 --> 01:36:04.800 But one police chief and his wife called it gunplay sex. 1709 01:36:04.899 --> 01:36:07.699 And every time something happened where he had to pull 1710 01:36:07.760 --> 01:36:10.039 out his gun, they went home. That's really intense. So 1711 01:36:10.100 --> 01:36:13.260 there's sympathetic and parasympathetic. But what I tell people is, 1712 01:36:14.090 --> 01:36:18.210 So many first responders get in trouble every year for 1713 01:36:18.229 --> 01:36:23.460 having sex on the job. So you go home and 1714 01:36:23.500 --> 01:36:26.359 you have intimacy and you have both partners are very 1715 01:36:26.420 --> 01:36:30.579 invested in life and it's biological and make the most 1716 01:36:30.659 --> 01:36:35.119 out of it. Off duty, wait, wait until you're off duty. 1717 01:36:35.970 --> 01:36:42.729 And we crap at the appropriate place We kill people 1718 01:36:42.789 --> 01:36:45.850 at the appropriate place and time. And we have sex 1719 01:36:45.909 --> 01:36:48.189 with the appropriate partner at the appropriate place and the 1720 01:36:48.210 --> 01:36:52.149 appropriate time. And these are the things that define us 1721 01:36:52.250 --> 01:36:56.250 as human beings. The ability to take the four Fs 1722 01:36:56.390 --> 01:37:00.489 and bring them under physical control. And so, you know, 1723 01:37:00.609 --> 01:37:04.069 getting sex under control is a constant challenge. It's one 1724 01:37:04.090 --> 01:37:08.229 of the great, you know, every drama, every... But getting... 1725 01:37:08.970 --> 01:37:13.029 fight or flight under control, getting that swig of water, 1726 01:37:13.640 --> 01:37:16.779 that deep breath of air, the other tools that we 1727 01:37:16.819 --> 01:37:20.560 have that control the sympathetic nervous system arousal. This is 1728 01:37:20.720 --> 01:37:25.939 pulling us as a species to the next level of 1729 01:37:26.119 --> 01:37:29.560 control and ability to take all of these things that 1730 01:37:29.699 --> 01:37:33.560 every animal has. The definition of life is some form 1731 01:37:33.600 --> 01:37:36.520 of fight or flight, the ability to take in energy 1732 01:37:36.729 --> 01:37:40.800 and reproduction. And bringing those things under conscious control, I think, 1733 01:37:41.119 --> 01:37:44.260 is kind of a step forward for us as a species. 1734 01:37:44.899 --> 01:37:47.520 I know you probably didn't mean it this way when 1735 01:37:47.560 --> 01:37:50.359 you wrote it, but by far, at least to me anyway, 1736 01:37:50.439 --> 01:37:55.619 the funniest part of On Killing was kind of this 1737 01:37:55.689 --> 01:37:57.890 part of the book when you started talking about the 1738 01:37:58.550 --> 01:38:02.600 sexy

girls with sexy guns thing. part of the i 1739 01:38:02.640 --> 01:38:04.579 got the last time i listened to it like i 1740 01:38:04.699 --> 01:38:07.119 could not stop i guess it's i guess it's kind 1741 01:38:07.140 --> 01:38:09.100 of the way like your inflection the way you said 1742 01:38:09.119 --> 01:38:11.020 it and it's just kind of like a ridiculous thing 1743 01:38:11.060 --> 01:38:14.279 to say like oh sexy girls and sexy guns like 1744 01:38:14.720 --> 01:38:19.140 pendulous mammalia or whatever mammaries. 1745 01:38:18.810 --> 01:38:20.489 Getting caught in the breach. 1746 01:38:22.470 --> 01:38:24.810 Just the way that like that cable the last time 1747 01:38:24.869 --> 01:38:27.069 i i re-listened to the book like i i just 1748 01:38:27.130 --> 01:38:30.819 could not stop laughing at that section i'm I. 1749 01:38:30.840 --> 01:38:33.260 Am so glad you responded that way because that was 1750 01:38:33.300 --> 01:38:33.760 the goal. 1751 01:38:34.800 --> 01:38:36.869 I'm glad you meant it as that way. 1752 01:38:37.050 --> 01:38:41.069 That was the goal was, you know, absurdity and, and, 1753 01:38:41.449 --> 01:38:44.270 and whimsy. I try to put that in my fiction 1754 01:38:44.350 --> 01:38:47.279 a lot too. And just, find things to laugh about. 1755 01:38:47.520 --> 01:38:49.859 And right in the middle of all of this, this 1756 01:38:49.920 --> 01:38:53.789 little bit of absurdity you plug in, you know, you 1757 01:38:53.850 --> 01:38:59.390 hear about people who plagiarize other people's work. And I think, 1758 01:39:00.149 --> 01:39:04.010 what a tragedy. Just cite them and quote it. I 1759 01:39:04.689 --> 01:39:07.739 think one of the greatest things that I can do 1760 01:39:08.220 --> 01:39:11.300 is just gather together all of these great quotes and 1761 01:39:11.739 --> 01:39:15.399 organize them in something decent. You know, I One of 1762 01:39:15.439 --> 01:39:17.939 the nicest things anybody ever told me one time was 1763 01:39:17.960 --> 01:39:20.979 I read your book and I kept looking forward to 1764 01:39:21.050 --> 01:39:24.550 the next indented paragraph because I knew something really cool 1765 01:39:24.609 --> 01:39:27.850 was coming. And I think what a great thing it 1766 01:39:27.970 --> 01:39:29.890 is for us to be able to go and take 1767 01:39:29.970 --> 01:39:33.010 all the cool stuff and pull it all together and 1768 01:39:33.090 --> 01:39:37.270 string it together into something readable. And so I'm glad 1769 01:39:37.289 --> 01:39:39.430 that particular portion hit you that way. 1770 01:39:39.470 --> 01:39:43.960 Yeah. Well, it's like I've... I know you quoted him 1771 01:39:44.000 --> 01:39:47.180 several times. So I'm assuming at least for your sci-fi thing, 1772 01:39:47.239 --> 01:39:51.000 part of your inspiration came from Robert Heinlein or Heinlein 1773 01:39:51.039 --> 01:39:53.819 or whatever. And I just, I couldn't help but laugh 1774 01:39:53.859 --> 01:39:57.770 at that one. The section of starship troopers, when he's 1775 01:39:57.810 --> 01:40:00.350 talking about, he's being on like the all male ship 1776 01:40:00.409 --> 01:40:03.289 and he gets this one detail. It's like coveted because 1777 01:40:03.350 --> 01:40:05.750 it's like the female section of the ship. And it's like, 1778 01:40:06.100 --> 01:40:08.420 we got to watch a woman go by and like, 1779 01:40:08.439 --> 01:40:10.359 she's like, we could like feel the breeze as she 1780 01:40:10.399 --> 01:40:13.220 came past. And they're like, everybody on the ship was 1781 01:40:13.340 --> 01:40:15.460 fighting to be in that like one spot. 1782 01:40:16.579 --> 01:40:24.050 You know, it's funny. We talk about gender fluidity and, and, 1783 01:40:24.250 --> 01:40:27.210 and girls who think they're guys and they might be, 1784 01:40:27.270 --> 01:40:30.789 and I'm, I'm not judging anything, but, but people don't 1785 01:40:30.909 --> 01:40:35.789 understand how powerful the biological drive in the male is. 1786 01:40:37.000 --> 01:40:39.819 And like I said, when dogs sleep, they don't dream 1787 01:40:39.899 --> 01:40:45.060 about sex. They dream about hunting. So in basic training, 1788 01:40:45.119 --> 01:40:47.930 there's this perpetual myth that they put something in the 1789 01:40:48.020 --> 01:40:51.529 food that makes the sex drive go away. But the 1790 01:40:51.569 --> 01:40:56.350 truth is, in the absence of females, this weird dynamic 1791 01:40:56.390 --> 01:40:59.850 happens for the first time in your life. You suddenly, 1792 01:40:59.930 --> 01:41:03.510 without females for an extended period of time, And for 1793 01:41:03.550 --> 01:41:06.770 the average heterosexual male, all of a sudden, this thing 1794 01:41:06.789 --> 01:41:10.689 that's always been there goes away, and it's conspicuous by 1795 01:41:10.750 --> 01:41:15.800 its absence. Well, in ranger school, we would go days 1796 01:41:15.840 --> 01:41:19.140 without food and days without sleep. And a friend of 1797 01:41:19.180 --> 01:41:24.100 mine just captured the reality of what it's like to 1798 01:41:24.140 --> 01:41:28.659 be without food. He said a beautiful woman could strip 1799 01:41:28.760 --> 01:41:31.770 off her clothes and spread herself in front of me, 1800 01:41:31.789 --> 01:41:34.439 and I would I would paw through her purse for 1801 01:41:34.460 --> 01:41:40.800 the Tic Tacs to eat. And once again, the drive 1802 01:41:40.880 --> 01:41:45.939 for hunger, you suddenly realize not only has the sex 1803 01:41:46.000 --> 01:41:49.750 drive gone away, but the food drive is so much 1804 01:41:49.909 --> 01:41:53.470 greater than that, that it has completely surpassed it, and 1805 01:41:53.670 --> 01:41:58.829 it's conspicuous by its absence. And so that dynamic of 1806 01:41:59.369 --> 01:42:01.789 being in that all-male environment, having just the whiff of 1807 01:42:01.880 --> 01:42:04.409 a female... is kind of powerful. 1808 01:42:04.829 --> 01:42:08.500 I remember, I always forget

the name of the author, 1809 01:42:08.520 --> 01:42:12.640 but he wrote a chronicle on the Third Crusade. And 1810 01:42:12.659 --> 01:42:16.039 they're talking about the march from Acre to Arsif. It 1811 01:42:16.079 --> 01:42:18.930 was like 20 days or something like that. And they 1812 01:42:18.979 --> 01:42:20.670 ran out of food at one point, so they were 1813 01:42:20.729 --> 01:42:26.210 eating their horses. And the line is, they were flavored 1814 01:42:26.270 --> 01:42:28.970 with hunger instead of sauce, and they thought the horse 1815 01:42:29.010 --> 01:42:29.989 meat was delicious. 1816 01:42:30.649 --> 01:42:30.770 Okay. 1817 01:42:31.220 --> 01:42:34.710 You know, it's a line. The greatest spice is hunger. And, 1818 01:42:35.239 --> 01:42:40.159 you know, I've done fasting for several days. And, of course, 1819 01:42:40.220 --> 01:42:45.560 it went without food. I wish before Rangers Rule, I 1820 01:42:45.600 --> 01:42:49.439 had gone without sleep. But I had never gone without food. 1821 01:42:50.279 --> 01:42:53.439 And so the first time my body slammed into this 1822 01:42:54.800 --> 01:42:59.100 dynamic of no food, it's a stressor that the body 1823 01:42:59.119 --> 01:43:02.300 had never encountered before. I tell people, you know, one 1824 01:43:02.319 --> 01:43:06.300 of the preps for ranger school is do fasting and 1825 01:43:06.380 --> 01:43:11.170 have your body go through ketosis before you have to 1826 01:43:11.229 --> 01:43:15.369 encounter it in this stressful event, you know, that's a 1827 01:43:15.470 --> 01:43:21.649 career-defining stressful event. But it's part of the human equation, again, 1828 01:43:21.670 --> 01:43:25.739 that a lot of us should have experienced periods of 1829 01:43:25.779 --> 01:43:30.510 time without food. And when you, you know, you go, 1830 01:43:30.649 --> 01:43:33.890 you know, what I usually do is I'll wake up 1831 01:43:33.909 --> 01:43:37.659 in the morning and have nothing all day and then 1832 01:43:37.920 --> 01:43:39.979 go to bed. So I've got two nights and one day. 1833 01:43:40.000 --> 01:43:43.739 And that next morning I go out for breakfast and 1834 01:43:43.800 --> 01:43:49.779 it's really, really good. It has a flavor the protected 1835 01:43:49.819 --> 01:43:52.939 will never know. The spice of hunger, you know. 1836 01:43:53.359 --> 01:43:56.359 Yeah, I'm definitely like a walking Snickers commercial. I always 1837 01:43:56.399 --> 01:43:59.000 tell my boss whenever they talk about working through lunch, 1838 01:43:59.039 --> 01:44:02.380 it says, my productivity plummets every minute past noon that 1839 01:44:02.439 --> 01:44:03.720 I go without my lunch. 1840 01:44:05.659 --> 01:44:08.369 You understand what a limitation that is of us. Yes, 1841 01:44:08.449 --> 01:44:11.189 it's true. It's true of all of us. But the 1842 01:44:11.250 --> 01:44:15.590 ability in some emergency situation to push on through that, 1843 01:44:15.810 --> 01:44:17.869 and I'm sure you can, and I'm sure you have, 1844 01:44:19.229 --> 01:44:23.479 but that shouldn't define us. And once again, it's this, 1845 01:44:23.579 --> 01:44:29.060 you know, this drive, you know, we've got fight or flight, 1846 01:44:29.100 --> 01:44:31.899 and then we've got feed and breed. And the drive 1847 01:44:31.939 --> 01:44:36.180 to eat, the drive to seek food, overcoming that drive 1848 01:44:36.380 --> 01:44:40.079 and pushing on through it is one of the defining 1849 01:44:40.100 --> 01:44:44.060 characteristics of us as a human being. And so there's 1850 01:44:44.100 --> 01:44:47.260 nothing wrong with that. But it represents one of the 1851 01:44:47.359 --> 01:44:49.880 challenges that we as human beings should be pushing the 1852 01:44:49.960 --> 01:44:52.890 envelope in that. Try fasting. And the key to fasting 1853 01:44:53.810 --> 01:44:58.189 is people around you should know. It's not like, oh, 1854 01:44:58.250 --> 01:45:01.310 I'm fasting today. It's really hard. Nobody should ever know 1855 01:45:01.340 --> 01:45:06.819 that it's happening. And it's just like a normal day 1856 01:45:06.899 --> 01:45:09.340 to go a day without food. Now you doing vigorous 1857 01:45:09.460 --> 01:45:13.739 physical activity, it becomes a lot harder. And there will 1858 01:45:13.800 --> 01:45:19.100 be a deterioration in your ability when it comes to 1859 01:45:19.180 --> 01:45:22.500 physical ability without food. So maybe not try it at 1860 01:45:22.600 --> 01:45:25.779 work with what you're doing, but, but all of us 1861 01:45:25.819 --> 01:45:27.279 can give it a shot during the day. 1862 01:45:27.920 --> 01:45:30.399 So we're, we're coming up here on time. So I 1863 01:45:30.439 --> 01:45:33.970 just wanted to ask like one final, like overarching, like question, 1864 01:45:34.020 --> 01:45:36.670 like in the end of on killing, you have a, 1865 01:45:36.949 --> 01:45:40.250 you have a section on like video games and what 1866 01:45:40.270 --> 01:45:43.590 you think their effect on society. Now this was, you know, 1867 01:45:43.590 --> 01:45:47.130 31 years ago. And I know like back in the day, 1868 01:45:47.149 --> 01:45:49.670 that was kind of, you know, the new thing, like the, 1869 01:45:50.939 --> 01:45:54.779 Do you still think that that's something that's damaging us 1870 01:45:54.880 --> 01:45:57.680 as a society? Or has your opinion on that changed 1871 01:45:57.979 --> 01:46:01.079 with new data and, you know, over the last 30 years? 1872 01:46:01.659 --> 01:46:06.239 Things have evolved. And I think the defining challenge of 1873 01:46:06.319 --> 01:46:11.060 our age is sleep deprivation. And the link between sleep 1874 01:46:11.220 --> 01:46:16.090 deprivation and violent crime is overwhelming, irrefutable. But there is 1875 01:46:16.319 --> 01:46:22.300 also how that sleep deprivation manifests itself. And again, I 1876 01:46:22.340 --> 01:46:24.500 think the video games are part of the equation. I 1877 01:46:25.739 --> 01:46:28.590 was

there at the night of the Jonesboro School Massacre. 1878 01:46:28.630 --> 01:46:31.069 You know, we call these things shootings. Just wrap your 1879 01:46:31.090 --> 01:46:34.149 mind around that as a historian. We can't call them 1880 01:46:34.210 --> 01:46:37.390 massacres or mass murders. We call them shootings. We're in 1881 01:46:37.489 --> 01:46:42.630 such denial. Shooting is an Olympic sport. Shooting, you know, 1882 01:46:42.649 --> 01:46:45.350 when we talk about active shooter response, would be real 1883 01:46:45.380 --> 01:46:48.560 busy during deer season. You know, we can't even call 1884 01:46:48.619 --> 01:46:53.119 these massacres, these mass murders. So, I was there on 1885 01:46:53.159 --> 01:46:55.159 the night of the Jonesboro massacre in March of 1998, 1886 01:46:55.159 --> 01:46:59.319 and my book came out in 95. And here we 1887 01:46:59.380 --> 01:47:04.979 are three years later, the two little boys, 11 and 1888 01:47:04.979 --> 01:47:07.939 13 years old, pulled the fire alarm, sucked the girls' 1889 01:47:08.000 --> 01:47:11.329 PE class in the kill zone, waited until the fire 1890 01:47:11.369 --> 01:47:13.949 door slammed and locked shut, and then gunned down 13 1891 01:47:13.949 --> 01:47:16.770 little girls and two teachers. Ultimately, five would die. It 1892 01:47:16.829 --> 01:47:23.229 was the all-time record juvenile mass murder in human history 1893 01:47:23.649 --> 01:47:29.710 until the following year, the Columbine Massacre. And now the normal, Russia, 1894 01:47:29.729 --> 01:47:31.710 I've got a news clipping I show up, Russia had 1895 01:47:31.789 --> 01:47:35.380 five school massacres in one part of Russia in 15 months. 1896 01:47:36.380 --> 01:47:39.399 These are worldwide. These are global. To this very day, 1897 01:47:39.420 --> 01:47:42.659 you know, the Parkland, Florida school massacre was an adult. 1898 01:47:42.779 --> 01:47:46.699 Uvalde was an adult, over 18. To this very day, 1899 01:47:46.920 --> 01:47:52.250 the all-time record mass murder by a juvenile was in Germany, 1900 01:47:52.289 --> 01:47:56.430 a school massacre in Germany. And so around the planet, 1901 01:47:56.829 --> 01:48:02.529 children are committing crimes never seen before. And we know, 1902 01:48:04.609 --> 01:48:07.189 we had trouble getting troops to pull the trigger and 1903 01:48:07.270 --> 01:48:10.880 so we trained adults and we made killing a conditioned response. 1904 01:48:11.920 --> 01:48:15.699 And it's a factor in the equation. And we're doing 1905 01:48:15.720 --> 01:48:17.680 a good thing. When we talk about murder, I told 1906 01:48:17.689 --> 01:48:23.359 you how rare murder is. We got to explain the 1907 01:48:23.359 --> 01:48:27.560 10 million people today that didn't kill anybody versus the 1908 01:48:27.640 --> 01:48:30.560 one that did. But the murder rate is being held 1909 01:48:30.600 --> 01:48:34.979 down by medical technology. Again, as a historian, anytime anybody 1910 01:48:35.000 --> 01:48:38.159 starts throwing the murder rate out there, you need to 1911 01:48:38.279 --> 01:48:43.520 automatically think, Are you allowing for medical technology, holding down 1912 01:48:43.579 --> 01:48:47.800 the murder rate? The number of dead people just tremendously 1913 01:48:47.939 --> 01:48:52.300 misrepresents the situation. It's far more complex than that. But 1914 01:48:52.479 --> 01:48:55.600 around the planet, in spite of everything we're doing, and 1915 01:48:55.649 --> 01:48:57.470 I've got a chart that I show up, every year 1916 01:48:57.569 --> 01:49:02.250 we see a new record dead by violence in schools. Meanwhile, 1917 01:49:02.310 --> 01:49:03.369 how many killed by fire? 1918 01:49:03.989 --> 01:49:04.369 Zero. 1919 01:49:05.449 --> 01:49:07.989 Not one single kid's been killed by school fires since 1920 01:49:08.010 --> 01:49:12.130 the mid-1950s. And yet every year, we show you a chart, 1921 01:49:12.170 --> 01:49:14.310 we get a new record dead by violence in the 1922 01:49:14.369 --> 01:49:19.029 school in spite of everything we're doing. And so the 1923 01:49:19.069 --> 01:49:22.840 data's there. This is worldwide. It's not just in America. 1924 01:49:23.140 --> 01:49:27.039 It is a factor in the equation. We know how 1925 01:49:27.100 --> 01:49:31.779 to take young 18-year-old kids as adults, under discipline, and 1926 01:49:31.800 --> 01:49:36.140 make them capable of far more likely to effectively kill 1927 01:49:36.180 --> 01:49:40.149 the enemy. And I think we can say that this 1928 01:49:40.250 --> 01:49:43.069 is a factor in the equation that's kind of pushed 1929 01:49:43.109 --> 01:49:47.489 the envelope of mass murders by children to levels never 1930 01:49:47.529 --> 01:49:52.649 seen before. The industry themselves have undergone some major changes 1931 01:49:52.710 --> 01:49:56.590 to try to reduce the impact and put safeguards into 1932 01:49:56.609 --> 01:50:00.520 the equation. But you just got to look around and, 1933 01:50:00.770 --> 01:50:06.600 number one, recognize juveniles committing mass murders. It just never 1934 01:50:06.659 --> 01:50:09.640 happened in human history. And now you've got to recognize 1935 01:50:09.680 --> 01:50:12.399 that they're everywhere. And you've just got to ask yourself, 1936 01:50:12.439 --> 01:50:16.439 what's the new factor? And, you know, you're a hunter, 1937 01:50:16.479 --> 01:50:18.409 you know, with people, oh, it's the guns. And I 1938 01:50:18.630 --> 01:50:22.510 threw up a picture of an M1 carbine. You know, 1939 01:50:22.529 --> 01:50:26.470 I got the 30-round magazine. There's one right there. My 1940 01:50:26.510 --> 01:50:29.189 wife gave me one for our 50th wedding anniversary, an 1941 01:50:29.310 --> 01:50:29.800 M1 carbine. 1942 01:50:29.810 --> 01:50:31.920 Is that a replica or is that an original? 1943 01:50:32.000 --> 01:50:34.819 Well, that's a real baby. Oh, nice. My 50th wedding 1944 01:50:34.859 --> 01:50:37.619 anniversary gift. Here's

another gift I got up there. It 1945 01:50:37.659 --> 01:50:40.479 was an M1 Garand that was given to me by 1946 01:50:40.539 --> 01:50:43.770 a police department. I got a thing about the giving 1947 01:50:43.819 --> 01:50:47.289 of a weapon and what it implies about your desire 1948 01:50:47.310 --> 01:50:52.270 for the well-being. But take that M1 carbine. Up until 1968, 1949 01:50:53.590 --> 01:50:57.609 any kid at any age could order one of these 1950 01:50:57.670 --> 01:51:00.850 through the U.S. mail. And the friendly mailman would deliver 1951 01:51:00.869 --> 01:51:05.100 it to your door. Thank goodness for James Adlaw. But 1952 01:51:05.680 --> 01:51:09.460 I mean, wrap your mind around it. Up until 1968, 1953 01:51:09.460 --> 01:51:11.619 any kid to order one of these to the U.S. mail. 1954 01:51:11.680 --> 01:51:17.449 So just the guns are not the new factor. Something 1955 01:51:17.770 --> 01:51:21.810 fundamentally new is happening out there. And I still think 1956 01:51:21.850 --> 01:51:25.100 that this is part of the equation. I'm increasingly convinced 1957 01:51:25.939 --> 01:51:28.720 that another huge part of the equation is sleep deprivation. 1958 01:51:29.380 --> 01:51:32.560 tied in with the video games, which becomes very, very common. 1959 01:51:32.600 --> 01:51:35.039 How many of us have played a game, and suddenly 1960 01:51:35.079 --> 01:51:38.100 it's four or five o'clock in the morning, it's time 1961 01:51:38.119 --> 01:51:39.500 to get up and get dressed, and we've got no 1962 01:51:39.520 --> 01:51:43.390 idea where the last eight hours went. And they do 1963 01:51:43.430 --> 01:51:47.609 that on purpose. This sleep deprivation is a factor in 1964 01:51:47.649 --> 01:51:50.930 mental illness, it's a factor in suicide, it's a factor 1965 01:51:50.949 --> 01:51:54.590 in violent crime. And when you combine it with the 1966 01:51:54.729 --> 01:51:58.369 killing-enabling dynamics, I think it's a piece of the equation. 1967 01:51:58.449 --> 01:52:00.729 And I think the data, when the book came out 1968 01:52:00.750 --> 01:52:07.739 in 95, I predicted juvenile mass murders. And unfortunately, the first, 1969 01:52:08.600 --> 01:52:11.619 the all-time record juvenile mass murder in human history happened 1970 01:52:11.659 --> 01:52:15.039 in my hometown. And then we had Jonesboro and Columbine, 1971 01:52:15.100 --> 01:52:19.329 and now they're everywhere. And in spite of everything we're doing. 1972 01:52:19.550 --> 01:52:21.289 And just got to ask you, we just had one in... 1973 01:52:22.529 --> 01:52:24.750 in Oregon that was stopped by a father that goes 1974 01:52:24.829 --> 01:52:27.270 in and shoots a 14 year old kid with a 1975 01:52:27.310 --> 01:52:29.989 shotgun that he stole from his mother. Uh, this just 1976 01:52:30.029 --> 01:52:31.510 happened on Monday. 1977 01:52:32.470 --> 01:52:35.079 I'm curious in, uh, in your travels, did you ever 1978 01:52:35.140 --> 01:52:37.800 hear anyone, uh, reference, uh, the, the game spec ops, 1979 01:52:37.819 --> 01:52:41.600 the line before? Oh, it, it was kind of an 1980 01:52:41.659 --> 01:52:45.079 under the radar hit because of the way they marketed it, 1981 01:52:45.159 --> 01:52:48.000 but it's one of probably one of the most impactful 1982 01:52:48.060 --> 01:52:51.989 video games I've ever played. So it starts out your standard, um, 1983 01:52:52.600 --> 01:52:56.720 over-the-shoulder third-person shooter. The plot is you're part of, like, 1984 01:52:56.760 --> 01:53:00.199 a special forces team that goes to Dubai after, like, 1985 01:53:00.229 --> 01:53:03.329 a massive, like, sandstorm buries the city. And you're trying 1986 01:53:03.350 --> 01:53:05.770 to find out what happens. But, like, as the game 1987 01:53:05.810 --> 01:53:08.250 goes on, the story of the game is based on 1988 01:53:08.310 --> 01:53:11.189 Heart of Darkness. So, like, you're going into this city 1989 01:53:11.229 --> 01:53:14.909 that's been destroyed, and you're realizing, like, the game is 1990 01:53:14.970 --> 01:53:21.380 basically railroading you into committing atrocities. But you have a choice. 1991 01:53:21.399 --> 01:53:23.609 You don't have to do it. But the game never 1992 01:53:23.670 --> 01:53:25.470 tells you that you don't have to do it. The 1993 01:53:25.510 --> 01:53:29.479 most infamous scene in the game, it's a white phosphorus scene. 1994 01:53:29.960 --> 01:53:33.359 And this came out a couple years after the Call 1995 01:53:33.380 --> 01:53:36.279 of Duty Modern Warfare started to trend. It's like you 1996 01:53:36.300 --> 01:53:38.600 get in the gunship and you just see little blips 1997 01:53:38.659 --> 01:53:40.600 on the screen and you pull the trigger and they 1998 01:53:40.619 --> 01:53:44.750 go away. So this one, you're shooting white phosphorus grenades 1999 01:53:45.590 --> 01:53:48.750 at these people. But then the game... you know, pulls 2000 01:53:48.770 --> 01:53:50.909 the rug on you and it makes you walk through 2001 01:53:50.949 --> 01:53:53.699 the area that you just blanketed in white phosphorous. So you, 2002 01:53:53.779 --> 01:53:56.420 it like, it basically like, it's like rubbing the nose 2003 01:53:56.460 --> 01:53:59.300 of the dog in the pee on the carpet and 2004 01:53:59.340 --> 01:54:01.239 come to find out like, Oh, by the way, you 2005 01:54:01.260 --> 01:54:03.720 just dropped that white phosphorus on a bunch of civilians 2006 01:54:03.819 --> 01:54:06.020 because you were just looking at it through the scope. 2007 01:54:06.090 --> 01:54:08.130 And it like the whole game does this to you. 2008 01:54:08.210 --> 01:54:10.130 It's like one of the, it's one of the most 2009 01:54:10.170 --> 01:54:12.930 like interesting, like psychological things I've ever seen like a 2010 01:54:12.970 --> 01:54:15.840 game do. Cause like on one hand, It's the same 2011 01:54:15.880 --> 01:54:20.310 like glorifying violence, you know, military realistic shooters you see. 2012 01:54:20.390 -->

01:54:22.430 And then it's like, you did this. 2013 01:54:23.210 --> 01:54:25.810 I think there's potentially something good coming out of that. 2014 01:54:26.310 --> 01:54:28.680 Yeah, because I mean, it makes you like it. It 2015 01:54:28.739 --> 01:54:31.699 lets you free. And then it yanks on the chain. 2016 01:54:31.720 --> 01:54:34.920 It's like those old like Tom and Jerry cartoons where 2017 01:54:34.939 --> 01:54:37.939 like the Tom or Jerry like pisses off the pit 2018 01:54:38.020 --> 01:54:40.859 or the bulldog. and then runs just out of range 2019 01:54:40.920 --> 01:54:42.840 of the chain and the dog, you know, and then 2020 01:54:42.960 --> 01:54:46.140 yanks on the chain and pulls them backwards. It's one 2021 01:54:46.159 --> 01:54:47.140 of the, like I said, it's one of the most 2022 01:54:47.199 --> 01:54:49.199 fascinating things I've ever seen a game do. 2023 01:54:50.000 --> 01:54:52.500 I think there's potential for something positive to come out 2024 01:54:52.539 --> 01:54:53.380 of that, but I don't know. 2025 01:54:53.880 --> 01:54:54.119 Yeah. 2026 01:54:54.460 --> 01:54:56.779 We really are in a realm where, where we don't know. 2027 01:54:56.920 --> 01:54:59.239 I just, I know there's a connection. I know that 2028 01:54:59.760 --> 01:55:01.779 the data is there to show it is worldwide. I 2029 01:55:02.090 --> 01:55:06.130 think the industry is kind of self-conscious. You know, you 2030 01:55:06.149 --> 01:55:09.939 got to wrap your mind around the money. One video game, 2031 01:55:10.069 --> 01:55:14.159 Grand Theft Auto V, one video game, the year it 2032 01:55:14.199 --> 01:55:19.819 came out, made more money than the entire global music industry. 2033 01:55:20.159 --> 01:55:22.380 It's still, it's like the second or third best-selling game. 2034 01:55:22.460 --> 01:55:24.899 I think, well, there is hope. Minecraft still has the 2035 01:55:24.960 --> 01:55:29.140 number one spot. So people mining blocks and building houses. 2036 01:55:29.239 --> 01:55:32.890 The money is bizarre and the political influence in this 2037 01:55:32.939 --> 01:55:38.680 industry and the degree of self-awareness And the degree of saying, well, 2038 01:55:39.100 --> 01:55:41.600 you know, are we a factor? Are there things we 2039 01:55:41.649 --> 01:55:43.890 could be doing? Are there things we should be doing? 2040 01:55:45.270 --> 01:55:45.649 I don't know. 2041 01:55:45.770 --> 01:55:50.430 And I think when we really deal with sleep deprivation 2042 01:55:51.489 --> 01:55:55.310 is the greater factor in the whole equation. Sleep deprivation 2043 01:55:55.329 --> 01:55:58.529 will make you mentally ill on the third day without sleep. 2044 01:55:58.789 --> 01:56:01.449 I will tell you, from personal experience, you'll see things 2045 01:56:01.510 --> 01:56:04.689 and hear things that are not there on Sleep deprivation 2046 01:56:04.930 --> 01:56:08.810 is a key factor in suicide. Right now, it's physically 2047 01:56:09.029 --> 01:56:11.409 impossible for you to take your life. The drive to 2048 01:56:11.470 --> 01:56:17.500 self-preservation is too powerful. But alcohol inhibits the drive to self-preservation. 2049 01:56:18.420 --> 01:56:21.039 Cops will tell you they go to suicide. There's almost 2050 01:56:21.079 --> 01:56:26.039 always alcohol there. Alcohol inhibits the drive to self-preservation, and 2051 01:56:26.399 --> 01:56:29.850 sleep deprivation works exactly the same way, and it's doing 2052 01:56:29.890 --> 01:56:33.189 it to your kids. And so we see teen suicides 2053 01:56:33.270 --> 01:56:36.949 and tweenagers. We see 10, 11, 12-year-old girls killing themselves 2054 01:56:37.069 --> 01:56:41.920 at rates never seen before in history. And so what 2055 01:56:41.960 --> 01:56:44.659 these things are doing more than anything else is when 2056 01:56:44.699 --> 01:56:50.600 they steal our sleep. And the whole industry is designed 2057 01:56:51.239 --> 01:56:53.819 to steal your sleep. Now, here's the key. This comes 2058 01:56:53.939 --> 01:56:57.260 full cycle to kind of where we began with the podcast. 2059 01:56:58.479 --> 01:57:04.869 The visual imagery can convince the brain that something exciting 2060 01:57:04.970 --> 01:57:09.090 is happening and push sleep aside. The spoken word doesn't 2061 01:57:09.149 --> 01:57:12.170 do it. The written word doesn't do it. And so 2062 01:57:12.189 --> 01:57:16.470 the podcast represents something very positive in our society. Books 2063 01:57:16.550 --> 01:57:22.319 represent something very positive in our society. But, you know, 2064 01:57:22.479 --> 01:57:24.680 you read a book and in a little while you 2065 01:57:24.699 --> 01:57:28.659 fall asleep. You listen to a podcast and usually you 2066 01:57:28.699 --> 01:57:32.420 fall asleep. Hopefully your podcast keeps them alert and awake 2067 01:57:32.439 --> 01:57:38.510 for a little while. But a movie, the brain processes 2068 01:57:38.590 --> 01:57:42.770 it differently. The video game, this visual imagery is like 2069 01:57:43.069 --> 01:57:46.250 a 10-year-old girl in a slumber party, and we push 2070 01:57:46.310 --> 01:57:50.609 sleep aside. And so when we look at the factors 2071 01:57:50.689 --> 01:57:54.500 in our society that's stealing our sleep, these are the concerns. 2072 01:57:54.539 --> 01:57:57.880 We look at the written word, the spoken word, that's 2073 01:57:57.920 --> 01:58:01.479 what we're designed to process. And it's a very positive 2074 01:58:01.520 --> 01:58:04.090 thing and good things are happening. And I'm proud to 2075 01:58:04.130 --> 01:58:06.829 be part of your podcast. I'd encourage you and all 2076 01:58:06.869 --> 01:58:10.460 your listeners to keep driving on with the written word 2077 01:58:10.500 --> 01:58:12.659 and the spoken word and try to preserve what it 2078 01:58:12.770 --> 01:58:13.810 is that makes us human. 2079 01:58:14.430 --> 01:58:17.210 So is there any, as we come to the close here, 2080 01:58:17.270 --> 01:58:20.270 is there any upcoming work you want to promote? Any, 2081 01:58:20.390 --> 01:58:22.729 you know, website and, you know, where can people find you? 2082 01:58:22.750 --> 01:58:23.390 That kind of thing. 2083 01:58:23.649 --> 01:58:27.949 Thanks for asking. My website is GrossmanOnTruth.com. You know, the 2084 01:58:28.010 --> 01:58:32.739 truth on killing, the truth on combat. GrossmanOnTruth.com. But I 2085 01:58:32.760 --> 01:58:34.659 really have had a lot of fun with the new 2086 01:58:34.720 --> 01:58:39.430 science fiction fantasy series that's dropped. Lots of humor. It's 2087 01:58:39.449 --> 01:58:42.409 got kind of a Lord of the Rings motif. It's 2088 01:58:42.449 --> 01:58:46.909 got a naval motif. In order to travel between the stars, 2089 01:58:47.539 --> 01:58:50.239 they go into the second dimension. They go into Flatland 2090 01:58:50.300 --> 01:58:53.159 and they carry a little bubble, a little ship that's 2091 01:58:53.220 --> 01:58:56.529 a little bubble of three dimensions traveling around And nobody's 2092 01:58:56.590 --> 01:59:02.479 ever done that. A book called Flatland came out in 1884. 2093 01:59:02.479 --> 01:59:06.439 And actually, my book number 3.5 is going to be 2094 01:59:06.479 --> 01:59:09.560 a reprint of the 1884 book with my people doing 2095 01:59:09.600 --> 01:59:12.939 a commentary on it. But a lot of humor, a 2096 01:59:12.979 --> 01:59:17.250 lot of fun, something totally different than anybody's ever done before. 2097 01:59:17.270 --> 01:59:20.569 A lot of my warrior science stuff woven into it. 2098 01:59:21.729 --> 01:59:26.390 Check out my website, GrossmanOnTruth.com. Check out the The Galactic 2099 01:59:26.520 --> 01:59:29.850 Two-Space War, and the second book will be, I'm doing 2100 01:59:29.890 --> 01:59:34.630 the narration for it just next week, it's The Galactic 2101 01:59:34.670 --> 01:59:37.630 Guns of Two-Space, and then the third one is really 2102 01:59:37.670 --> 01:59:40.560 the best one so far, it's called The Magnificent Midshipman 2103 01:59:40.600 --> 01:59:43.960 of Two-Space, so always got a new book out, always 2104 01:59:44.039 --> 01:59:47.720 rocking along, always driving on, and like I said, I'm 2105 01:59:47.720 --> 01:59:51.479 70 years old, and I got a 20-year plan to 2106 01:59:52.579 --> 01:59:55.100 to keep driving on. And I encourage you and everybody 2107 01:59:55.159 --> 01:59:57.619 out there to keep driving on and stay in the fight. 2108 01:59:57.680 --> 01:59:59.600 The world needs what you got to have, what you 2109 01:59:59.619 --> 02:00:01.100 got to give brother, the world needs it. 2110 02:00:01.859 --> 02:00:04.130 All right. Well, I'd like to thank Dave Grossman from 2111 02:00:04.170 --> 02:00:06.010 coming on and from all of us here at war 2112 02:00:06.029 --> 02:00:08.949 and conquest, drink some water and go to sleep.