Bản chép lời đầy đủ của Exploring Esoteric Christianity as a Non-Dogmatic Catholicism with Bishop Bryan Ouellette

idea it was an extorsist. Yeah, I had no idea 72 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:24.519 it was that prolific in the Catholic. 73 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:27.800 It's not supposed to be. But I think, as I've 74 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:32.480 said before, I think the volume of recent converts in 75 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:36.920 the last few years from more evangelical or non Catholic 76 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:42.120 traditions have brought some of that mentality to the I 77 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:44.199 mean that's not all cases, because you would think an 78 00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:47.399 extorcists who's been established in the church for a long 79 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:50.680 time would would know better. But they're teaching this stuff 80 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:54.079 and it's very dangerous, I think. But ironically, I find 81 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:56.920 myself in agreement with Catholic answers because they're on our 82 00:07:56.959 --> 00:07:58.000 side of the fence with this one. 83 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:00.720 Well, once in a while, you know, even a broken. 84 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:04.560 Clock is yeah, that's right, that's right. But hey, look, 85 00:08:04.839 --> 00:08:07.720 I mean, I'm they're only teaching and I've only taught 86 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:10.199 what the church with the magisterium is taught on this, 87 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:13.399 So give them anybody that's teaching that, you know, they 88 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:16.879 if they're claiming that it's a Catholic position, No, that's 89 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:20.120 a personal opinion because that is not the official teaching 90 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:22.959 of the church around. I mean, you're allowed to have it, 91 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:25.519 but I think it becomes a bit problematic when you 92 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:31.800 can cause unnecessary fear or anxiety within the foundation of 93 00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:35.440 the faith. Christians are really called to be stronger than that, 94 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:39.440 So I think it's dangerous for a priest to teach 95 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:40.840 such just like the new. 96 00:08:40.720 --> 00:08:44.399 Thing now is Steven Spielberg the disclosure. 97 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:45.639 Yeah, we're gonna go see it tomorrow. 98 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:50.519 Actually full report. Yeah, the timings at a little suspicious. 99 00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:52.200 It's not going to shake my faith. I got news 100 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:55.639 for you, guys. No, I don't see why to begin with. 101 00:08:55.679 --> 00:08:57.799 But if you've got priests out there teaching. 102 00:08:57.559 --> 00:08:58.919 That, that becomes a problem, that. 103 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:01.440 It's demonic and that this is like the end times, 104 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:03.679 they are going to be Antichrist there. It's a great deception. 105 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:08.320 I mean, that could lead to faith problems. It could, 106 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:11.840 you know, particularly particularly if because it's a question for science, 107 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:14.200 it's a question for science, it's not one for religion. 108 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:17.759 And if if it is true that there's intelligent life 109 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:20.480 and it's been visiting us and and and there's multiple 110 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:22.440 species and all these things that are being claimed, if 111 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:25.840 any of this turns out to be definitively true, then 112 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:28.960 you know what that's going to do is because people 113 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:33.480 will cling so harsh, so so tightly I was going 114 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:37.000 to say, harshly, but so tightly to their worldview that 115 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:38.679 they're not going to know how to deal with it. 116 00:09:38.759 --> 00:09:42.000 Because that's that's going to be the greatest scientific discovery 117 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:43.639 of all time. 118 00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:45.679 It will put a lot of brains on lockdown. 119 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:49.440 Yes, And I don't think, you know, the church needs 120 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:52.840 to sort of be the instrument to usher in this 121 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:57.799 new way of thinking rather than you know, people trying 122 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:00.799 to create fair mongering and all these other things around it. 123 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:03.759 So I think, I think it's going to be an 124 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:05.720 interesting thing, but it's not going to help matters. It's 125 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:09.440 not helping matters with disclosure if people are still demonstrating 126 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:12.279 very clearly that they're not ready for it by thinking that, 127 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:14.320 you know, scientific discovery is got to be. 128 00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:16.840 Society, No, I don't think we're ready mentally. 129 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:19.720 It might be happening, whether we're ready or not. 130 00:10:19.720 --> 00:10:22.200 Those of us that are a little more open minded 131 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:25.600 and grounded are like, yeah, bring it, come on, why 132 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:26.120 are we waiting? 133 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:30.879 Bring it on and bring it on right? Bring joining 134 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:33.159 us from Australia, we have Father christy Ates. How you 135 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:33.919 doing tonight? Father? 136 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:35.919 Do all right? 137 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:46.159 I'm minded, Jamie said, you know, the real phrase is 138 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:48.759 a stop clock is right twice a day. There you go, 139 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:52.639 because because because actually a broken clock can just never 140 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:53.120 be right. 141 00:10:55.840 --> 00:10:56.320 That's right. 142 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:00.399 No, no, no, I think it was quite useful. 143 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:04.720 I

think I think I think your characterization was the 144 00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:05.279 correct one. 145 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:07.840 Yeah. 146 00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:10.440 Also, I was just point in the group chat. Priest 147 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:11.240 are just priests. 148 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:13.159 That's true. 149 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:18.000 Priests are indispensable when it comes to receiving the sacraments 150 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:24.000 of the Church. But the pope doesn't often make infallible statements. 151 00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:27.759 Even if you accept that he can, priests definitely cannot 152 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:33.399 make inable statements. So I am a priest. I'm not 153 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:36.759 I'm not slugging off something I don't inhabit. But I'm 154 00:11:36.759 --> 00:11:37.559 only a priest. 155 00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:41.360 Yeah, okay, that think we're all with being only a priest, right, 156 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:44.159 I get into this to only be a priest. So 157 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:48.679 look out here, we are here, we are. 158 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:51.720 Yes, I'm fighting that one off as we speak. 159 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:57.320 Good luck joining us from a Tennessee. We have April 160 00:11:57.360 --> 00:11:58.919 and the right. How you're doing tonight in April? 161 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:02.000 I'm good. I'm like Jamie, just bring it. 162 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:03.679 I want to let these aliens, I. 163 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:05.320 Know, I mean, I want to you know, I want 164 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:08.320 to sit down play some chess. 165 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:10.759 Well, you know what she's supposed to be, Feeline. If 166 00:12:10.759 --> 00:12:13.600 I'm not mistaken, I'm going to be talking to my 167 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:14.360 cats a little. 168 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:16.159 Bit more already. 169 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:20.600 Yeah, they've they've already been. Yeah, the way my cats 170 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:22.240 look at me when they think I don't. 171 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:26.039 Notice, I'm I'm all, I'm look I like. I love 172 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:29.720 scientific discoveries, particularly new and life changing ones. Those are 173 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:32.639 always interesting. So I'm all for it. I'm ready for it. 174 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:35.519 And you know, I don't. I don't think here's an 175 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:39.279 extors to saying absolutely, definitely, positively not demons. 176 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:44.600 If they show irrefutable proof, we're gonna get some good scotch. 177 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:48.399 Oh yeah, oh yeah, we'll have to up it to 178 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:49.960 the forty year old. Right, Yeah, how about that. 179 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:50.840 We're gonna have to go big. 180 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:53.320 Yeah, let's go big or go home, all right, let's 181 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:56.120 get started with questions from the Ether tonight, April. What 182 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:56.840 do you got for us? 183 00:12:57.879 --> 00:13:00.159 All right? First question was for me and it was 184 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:03.600 a follow up from our discussion last week about the abortions. 185 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:04.799 Okay, so my. 186 00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:09.320 Question is, if you choose to allow the child to 187 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:11.799 come to term, is that not the same as the 188 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:14.720 mother choosing to be murdered and or committing suicide. Those 189 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:15.639 are also sins. 190 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:18.600 You know, I'm gonna before I answer this, I'm going 191 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:21.159 to say, you know, there is not one thing that 192 00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:27.080 caused more controversy from our little thirty second shorts than 193 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:31.840 last week's discussion on abortion. I had to turn comments 194 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:37.279 off on TikTok just because TikTok was producing the worst 195 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:40.440 vitriol I've seen. Facebook wasn't too bad, a little bit, 196 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:45.360 on YouTube, Instagram, not at all, But on TikTok, it 197 00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:50.159 was just pure vitriol. Clearly, people that don't follow me, 198 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:54.240 don't follow what I do, don't understand, didn't watch the show, 199 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:58.679 making assumptions and everything else. And you know, I want 200 00:13:58.720 --> 00:13:59.879 to make it very very. 201 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:04.120 Clear, they are zealousy, They truly are. 202 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:06.799 But but you know, they were talking to me like 203 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:09.679 you know, you don't I don't get to make decisions 204 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:13.720 for people. And I said, lady lady, First of all, 205 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:16.559 if you actually watched my show, you'd know I'm a libertarian, 206 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:20.759 which makes me politically pro choice. It does. And the 207 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:23.600 second thing is you got to remember there's a difference 208 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:27.600 between being pro choice, which is a political designation, and 209 00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:31.480 being anti abortion, which is a moral religious one. And uh, 210 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:34.240 I have always held that it is the job of 211 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:37.759 the church to teach morality, not the government. So if 212 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:41.159 the if people want to do a moral things, I 213 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:44.080 don't think that a free society is at liberty to 214 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:46.200 stop them. But I will say it is up to 215 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:49.720 the church to teach what is correct behavior. And that's 216 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:52.360 all we were doing last week. That's all I ever 217 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:55.519 do from week to week. I am very as

far 218 00:14:55.559 --> 00:15:01.320 as my libertarian leanings are politically, I believe in live 219 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.240 and let live. You do you, I do me. I 220 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:05.879 don't want you influencing my life, and I don't want 221 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:09.639 to influence yours. But as far as if we're going 222 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:12.000 to talk about what it means to be Christian, well 223 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.759 that's a whole other discussion because I have a different 224 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:19.480 obligation to that than I do to secular society. So 225 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:21.320 I just wanted to make that clear, just in case 226 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:24.039 any of those people from TikTok we're listening, or are 227 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.200 listening right now, because we are streaming right now on TikTok, 228 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:29.840 and I want to make it very clear. Yes, it 229 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:33.159 is possible, even a Catholic bishop, it is possible to 230 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:38.840 be politically pro choice and still be very anti abortion 231 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:41.399 on a moral level. Because I teach on morality, that 232 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:44.320 is my expertise. I don't teach on government. I mean, 233 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:45.360 other than the fact that I want. 234 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:48.720 It on my life in fairness, this is you know, 235 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:51.519 and to show that this is allowable within the life 236 00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:54.519 of the church. This is where we disagree, you know, 237 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:57.519 because you could make from my opinion, from my point 238 00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:00.759 of view, even though I'm lean libertarian, definitely. 239 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:03.399 Uh you could. 240 00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:06.080 You could say the same thing about murder, you know, 241 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:08.120 so we should have any laws against murder because it's 242 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:08.879 a moral teaching. 243 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:11.399 Well yeah, but no. But but the problem is everyone 244 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:13.960 agrees on what murder is. No one. We do not 245 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:17.519 all agree on what abortion if abortion qualifies, that's the difference, 246 00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:20.960 you know, No one did. No one denies that if 247 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:22.519 you go and you take a gun and you shoot 248 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:25.559 someone in cold blood, that's murder. Not one person liberal 249 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:28.480 or conservatives is going to think that that's not murder. 250 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:32.720 But well, hang on, hang on, unless you ran a 251 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:37.120 health fund and you were walking through New York and 252 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:39.440 someone shot you from behind, and all of a sudden, 253 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:40.600 that person is now a hero.

254 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:45.759 Well so I'm not so sure that. I mean the law, 255 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:48.960 you might you might call a person a hero, and 256 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:51.159 and I mean I mean you might you might be 257 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:54.399 able to say that there's different categories that qualify as 258 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:58.120 what is murder. But you know, okay, let's make it 259 00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:01.240 more simple. Let's just say a home invasion. Some guy 260 00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:05.400 just breaks into someone's house and takes a you know, 261 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:09.200 semi automatic gun and just you know, shoots all of 262 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:12.039 the family members. I mean, I think everybody would agree 263 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:15.480 that that's murder. That's a clear, clean cut one. Abortion 264 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:18.680 is not in that camp, unfortunately. I mean, do I 265 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:22.480 think it's murdered? Yes, I do, you know, but. 266 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:25.559 Hence why I'm we're allowed to disagree. 267 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:29.160 By the way, Yeah, of course, but the and I 268 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:31.839 accept that, I accept the nuance that you're introduced. 269 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:33.359 Of course, that's a reality. 270 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:37.000 Yes, the fact that people think differently about about a 271 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:39.160 human being in the womb than they do from one 272 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:39.799 outside of it. 273 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:42.799 I acknowledge that that is true. 274 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:44.640 And that's where the difference is. If we could have 275 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:51.400 irrefutable agreement that this was indeed a a human being 276 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:53.960 that that falls under the rights of human beings. If 277 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:57.799 we had absolute agreement on that, you know, then I 278 00:17:57.839 --> 00:17:59.759 don't think we'd have an issue of abortion. It wouldn't 279 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:01.400 even that but when we didn't have to get into 280 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:04.519 the morality of it, because there wouldn't be any discrepancy 281 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:05.079 in how. 282 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:10.799 It explains explains why such the pushback on social media 283 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:12.119 like Twitter, sorry, like. 284 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.440 What's it called? I don't even use it, TikTok. Sorry. 285 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:21.359 It explains the pushback because in order to. 286 00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:23.880 Arrive at the point where it's where the clarity is 287 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:28.519 therefore all to see, you know, people don't want that 288 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:33.359 because it's the same reason people don't become religious. It's 289 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:36.599 because it requires the sacrifice, It requires something of you, 290 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:39.920 and so people are going to push back in the 291 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:44.920 direction of things that make their lives easier, to indulge 292 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:48.720 their own appetites rather than to sacrifice something. So that's 293 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:52.119 why you get the pushback on so that's why you know, 294 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:55.920 for me, I'm going to keep pushing that because I 295 00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:57.960 believe that it's true, and it's why the Catholic Church 296 00:18:58.000 --> 00:18:59.559 isn't going to change his teaching on it. 297 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:00.920 It's why Pope Leo. 298 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:03.799 Heroically goes to the most left wing Spanish government that's 299 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:06.759 ever existed, goes into their parliament and tells them that 300 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:07.680 abortion is wrong. 301 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:12.160 Yeah, and there's really nothing wrong with with a church 302 00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:17.440 leader going into a Yeah. I mean, that's a different matter. 303 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:21.240 But when you when you when you use the church, 304 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:23.960 particularly in the United States of America, where there's a 305 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:27.400 very clear distinction between you know, what is secular and 306 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:31.319 what is is not secular, I think you you run 307 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:36.160 a dramatic risk of compromising the nature of freedom when 308 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:42.359 you use the church as a vehicle through pushing a 309 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:48.000 a a worldview that has a moral ramification. And right now, 310 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:53.000 whether you know the argument, yeah, right, and but but 311 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:56.240 not but not as a not as a as a 312 00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:58.440 as a vehicle for the state. I don't think it 313 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:02.720 should be something that is you legislation because again, as 314 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:08.039 I've used this example before, I don't want something like 315 00:20:08.119 --> 00:20:12.759 what's happened in the UK, for example, where the entire 316 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:19.000 country is being overrun by Islam to the point that hey, 317 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:22.039 one day maybe Sharia law will take a footing there. 318 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:25.799 And now they start telling, you know, European English citizens 319 00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:29.240 how to live their lives according to Muslim values. I 320 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:32.079 would not want that happening at all. So I look 321 00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:34.119 at it in the same light. I understand that there 322 00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:36.000 are people in the United States of America that want 323 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:39.799 nothing to do with the Church, hate Christianity, they're not 324 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:41.960 compatible with it, and you know what, we

don't want 325 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:46.880 them stay over there. That's fine. However, I can understand 326 00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:48.799 that they don't want us telling them how to live 327 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:51.480 their life or how to make decisions in compromising what 328 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:54.599 they see as their freedoms. I don't want to be 329 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:57.839 standing in the way of that for them. I don't 330 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:00.759 want my religion to be something that they can target 331 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:04.720 for that. Do I teach what's right? Yes, I teach 332 00:21:04.759 --> 00:21:07.640 what's right, but I don't push it legislatively. And I 333 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:09.599 and and I think that's where the line gets drawn 334 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:12.240 for me, particularly here in the US, because of the 335 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:15.000 the fact that that is I mean, I understand that 336 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:17.119 separation of church and state is and what people think 337 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:20.960 it is. It doesn't mean that the church can't influence 338 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:23.519 the state. It's that the that the state can't interfere 339 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:25.759 with religions really to protect religion, not so much to 340 00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:29.920 protect the state. However, that being said, I still think 341 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:33.480 it's a good divide to keep in their own respective 342 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:36.240 categories and leave each side alone. 343 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:40.160 I mean, I'm at risk of turning the show into 344 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:42.519 something something else, so I'm going to stop. 345 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:46.119 But we haven't even gotten to the question yet. 346 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:52.559 But I think it's interesting because there's a sort of 347 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:56.279 a paradox going on because the principle of the separation 348 00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:58.640 of church and state, which I agree with too, by 349 00:21:58.680 --> 00:21:59.880 the way, I mean, you know, I was a pret 350 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.319 to the Church of England and the state has destroyed 351 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:05.960 the Church of England, right so so so absolutely what 352 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:11.119 you just said is right. But here's the paradox. The 353 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:13.839 separation of church and state is a principle that can 354 00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:18.960 only subsist within an overall Christian framework. And that because 355 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:21.519 and let me tell you what I'm what I mean 356 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:24.160 by that, And a lot of people misunderstand. 357 00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:26.720 This when I say it, what we what? 358 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:30.839 What what happens absent Christianity being the default, Even if 359 00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:33.480 people are not particularly religious or bothered

about the church, 360 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:34.160 or don't even know. 361 00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:34.960 Believe in God. 362 00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:37.400 You know, I grew up in a in a in 363 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:41.480 a culture where the default was even atheists were Christian atheists. 364 00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:44.880 If you know what I'm saying, we no longer exist 365 00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:48.039 in that world. Well you may, you might do in America, 366 00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:50.319 but we don't do anywhere else. Well we don't do 367 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:54.920 in Britain or Australia. That here's the problem. The state 368 00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:59.519 is creating its own religion and so and so and 369 00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:02.160 now that that is church and state. It's not the 370 00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:04.519 Christian Church, it's whatever this new religion is. 371 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:05.640 I'm calling that church. 372 00:23:05.799 --> 00:23:08.720 Okay, that's the bit I miss out, And people misunderstand 373 00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:09.359 what I'm saying. 374 00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:14.160 That church and state is one and the same. And 375 00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:14.680 so you've. 376 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:20.119 Actually already got the cudgel of legislators forcing you to 377 00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:23.480 believe a religion, and you know, the and load to 378 00:23:24.039 --> 00:23:26.720 mention this topic, but the easiest one to bring up. 379 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:29.279 And it's going on in Britain and to a Lessterer 380 00:23:29.319 --> 00:23:32.400 extent in Australia, although it's growing in force, is all 381 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:33.839 of a sudden we have speech police. 382 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:36.359 And so you know, if a woman says. 383 00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:38.519 I don't want a man competing in my rugby match 384 00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:42.319 she all of a sudden get arrested, because that transgresses 385 00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:47.839 the religious beliefs that the state has now enshrined in 386 00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:50.200 what it is. So it's sort of talking. It's sort 387 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:51.720 of getting too what you were saying about if you 388 00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:54.720 ended up with Muslims taking over and bringing in imposing 389 00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:58.720 Shria law. But since this is my issue, absently Christianity, 390 00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:01.920 the state creates its own religion and that is enforced 391 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:03.960 by the state in the same way it was when 392 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:08.079 the early followers of Jesus were hamstrung because they wouldn't 393 00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:10.599 offer incense to Roman gods. 394 00:24:10.599 --> 00:24:13.519 Which is all and I agree completely, which is all 395 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:16.440 the more reason why I think the separation has to 396 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:21.440 be immutable. It has to be immutable on both sides

397 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:23.480 of the fence. Now, even though it was designed to 398 00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:26.160 protect one over the other, I think it has to 399 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:28.400 be absolutely separate for all. 400 00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:34.279 I'm saying it because the secular religion is political, so 401 00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:36.440 I don't know what to do about that. 402 00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:40.960 The only thing you can do about that is vote libertarian. 403 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:42.759 That's the only thing you can do about that, and 404 00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:43.640 people don't want to do that. 405 00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:46.720 I am a member of the Liberalian Party in Australia. 406 00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:50.480 I see. The reality is the reality is that you know, 407 00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:53.119 whether you vote Democrat or Republican, whether you're a conservative 408 00:24:53.200 --> 00:25:00.559 or a liberal, both parties want to control aspects of 409 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:03.680 your life. Both want and they and when you really 410 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:07.119 weigh them, it's it's almost equal. It's just different values, 411 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:13.119 different priorities, but both are Yeah, well we end up 412 00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:14.400 game both, Yeah. 413 00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:17.960 The Red's game and they do that control. They do 414 00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:20.200 that control with more and more and control. 415 00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:22.960 So you don't need to persuade me on that exactly. 416 00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:25.799 So all the more reason why I always default to 417 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:29.039 whatever provides the most freedom, even if it provides freedoms 418 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:32.839 that I find reprehensible, is it has to be protected. 419 00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:35.880 I have to protect reprehensible freedom in order to protect 420 00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:37.960 all freedom. It's there's no other way around. It's kind 421 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:40.119 of like when Tracy put up we had a little 422 00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:43.160 bit of the quick talk about this upstairs before the show, 423 00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:46.480 and Tracy made a fantastic point. It's it's the same 424 00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:48.279 thing with the Second Amendment. You know, there's a lot 425 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:50.359 of people that are like, oh, just restrict all guns 426 00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:52.960 because you know criminals can get them and kill people 427 00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:55.839 with them. And the fact of the matter is, yeah, 428 00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:59.559 we have to allow. We have to allow to in 429 00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:02.599 order to be able to have the right to bear arms, 430 00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:04.799 we have to allow the fact that sometimes the wrong 431 00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:07.039 people are going to get hold of them. That's part 432 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:07.240 of it. 433 00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:08.240 Freedom. 434 00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:11.519 Freedom equals risk, yes, you know, and so I mean, 435 00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:15.480 I should You've actually just named the difference between America 436 00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:18.759 and everywhere else, and why perhaps I'm more I'm right 437 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:21.079 to be more concerned in Australia than you need to 438 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:23.519 be in America. We don't we don't have a first 439 00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:25.640 Amendment and we don't have a second Amendment. That's true, 440 00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:28.400 and so so for me, this is a this is 441 00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:32.519 a real, like instant danger because as soon as legislations 442 00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:36.759 passed in Australia or in the United Kingdom, it's in 443 00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:38.119 a sense total. 444 00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:42.519 A much greater existential threat with every new issue than 445 00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:45.519 we are because of our con safety valve. 446 00:26:46.359 --> 00:26:48.200 The safety valve used to be the monarch. 447 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:51.559 Actually, but what's happened throughout the twentieth century that the 448 00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:56.759 powers of the monarch were softly you know, we're not used. 449 00:26:57.079 --> 00:26:59.680 I mean, you know, it's heresy to criticize Queen Elizabeth. 450 00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:03.799 I second. But actually she was wrong not to intervene more. 451 00:27:05.079 --> 00:27:08.319 Because that, in a sense was our was our first amendment, right, 452 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:14.359 and when once that stops, you know, once they're literally 453 00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:16.000 only a ceremonial head. 454 00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:17.759 You know they should be largely that. 455 00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:21.680 But once they're only a ceremonial head, where's the safety valve? 456 00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.960 Well there isn't one, and that's why you're seeing people 457 00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:27.279 right in the streets in Belfast and London. 458 00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:31.920 I mean it's yeah, see I think that. I mean, no, no, 459 00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:34.599 you're fine, because it's actually really a lot of food 460 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:37.000 for thought that we can maybe take into the summer 461 00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:39.680 specials as well, because I mean I've thought about to. 462 00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:41.319 Be very grateful for your constitution. 463 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:41.720 Yeah. 464 00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:44.279 Well, see, the Constitution is sort of like our monarch. 465 00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:44.519 You know. 466 00:27:44.599 --> 00:27:47.119 That's the difference between America again, and and and and 467 00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:50.240 and you know the European system is that we never 468 00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:52.720 had a monarch. We we did everything we could to 469 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:57.400 get

away from that. But once yeah, well none as 470 00:27:57.400 --> 00:28:01.279 Americans though, I mean it was more this perhaps, but 471 00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:05.200 as far as like the Constitution is our replacement for 472 00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:08.480 that became our protection, whereas the monarch was your protection. 473 00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:11.079 And what you guys did is you get rid of 474 00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:13.839 your the power of your monarch without putting a constitution 475 00:28:13.960 --> 00:28:16.079 in place to protect the people. And that's where you're 476 00:28:16.119 --> 00:28:18.960 at right now. I really think that's why Europe is 477 00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:22.119 in such crisis. And yeah, Australia wouldn't be too far 478 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:24.160 behind if if they're not careful, they could they could 479 00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:27.559 very much end up the same way. It's it's kind 480 00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:29.000 of scary to think about it, but you do need 481 00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:31.000 to have something, so yeah, I'm all for it. It's 482 00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:33.359 like I do think that I'm not a huge I 483 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:36.279 don't think a constitutional monarchy would be great for Americans, 484 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:38.839 but I do think Europe needs it. I do, I 485 00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:41.200 really do, and I think it needs a more powerful one. 486 00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:43.599 I think you need a little more than a constitutional monarch. 487 00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:44.799 I think you need to go back to where the 488 00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:46.599 king actually can do something. 489 00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:47.279 You know. 490 00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:51.440 He actually can. It's just that it's fallen into disuse. 491 00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:54.400 It's like, bring it back, bring it back as you need. 492 00:28:54.519 --> 00:28:55.599 You need protection, you do. 493 00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:59.160 But it's like in rugby league, any roog league fans, 494 00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:03.839 especially Australia a big you still have still scrums in 495 00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:07.880 rugby league right union, yes, but by convention they don't 496 00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:10.079 push anymore but in rubunion it's a really all They 497 00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:11.680 go for it and try and make ground. You know, 498 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:14.400 in rugby league they don't buy convention, but they but 499 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:15.440 the rules say you can. 500 00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:16.440 They just don't. 501 00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:21.880 They don't bring stop pushing. Yeah, tell them to start 502 00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:24.640 pushing his power. Yeah. I always felt they were really 503 00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:28.599 in control anyway. All right, April, let's let's let's ask 504 00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:31.400 the question again, because we're probably so far I know, 505 00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:32.920 I know what the question is, but just for the 506 00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:35.200 sake of the audience, we've gone so far off the 507 00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:37.480 deep end here, let's hear it again so I can 508 00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:38.319 answer it this time. 509 00:29:39.319 --> 00:29:43.599 Okay, So the question is, if you choose to allow 510 00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:47.160 a child to come to turn to turn, is that 511 00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:49.440 not the same as the mother choosing to be murdered 512 00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:52.279 and or committing suicide, which are also seems. 513 00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:56.119 No, it's neither murder nor suicide in that particular case, 514 00:29:56.200 --> 00:29:58.519 because what you're talking about here is that a person 515 00:29:58.599 --> 00:30:03.759 is faced with a critical medical situation, and we are 516 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:06.880 not and this might be surprising to some people, but 517 00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:12.400 we're not morally compelled to seek treatment or not. You know, 518 00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:16.440 a person can morally say I don't want treatment for 519 00:30:16.519 --> 00:30:19.559 this terminal illness or we can say, yeah, do it, 520 00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:23.799 do whatever you can to to say, we're only required. 521 00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:28.119 We're only required to at least from the standpoint of 522 00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:32.880 the Magisterium, is to not do harm. But as far 523 00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:36.839 as as far as like what a person deems is appropriate, 524 00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:41.160 medical intervention is really up to the conscience of the individual. 525 00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:44.759 So it's actually the opposite. And I gave an example 526 00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.160 to you in this in the on the network about 527 00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:53.960 the Saint uh Gianna who was pregnant with her fourth 528 00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:58.400 child doctors discovered or Tom she's a contemporary saint. She 529 00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:02.319 had doctor's discovered a tumor in her uterus, and she 530 00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:06.880 had several medical options that were presented to her, one 531 00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:10.920 of which was a hysterectomy or another that was treatment 532 00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:15.440 that would likely have endangered the child. Okay, she chose 533 00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:19.720 the conservative surgery, so she still opted for medical intervention, 534 00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:23.200 but said that if it came down to her life 535 00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:25.000 for the babies, that they need to save the child, 536 00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:28.079 which is exactly what ended up happening. And the Church 537 00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:30.720 canonized her in two thousand and four for this that 538 00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:34.279 was not considered murder because she wasn't trying to die, 539 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:37.559 she wasn't trying to wasn't suicide. She wasn't trying to 540

00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:42.359 end her life. She was already in a medical crisis 541 00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:47.759 and receiving treatment and decided to give her life for 542 00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:52.359 the sake of the baby, which is not completely Yeah, yeah, 543 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:54.920 I do too, And I'll be honest with you. It's 544 00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:58.680 not unlike Christ because I mean, he gives his life 545 00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:00.839 for ours sake, you know, So it's a very Christian 546 00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:03.960 thing to do. Martyrs have done this, Padre not not 547 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:10.359 Padre pou. Saint Maximilian Kolbe a great example of someone 548 00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:14.039 who gave his life for the sake of another. Okay, 549 00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:17.799 so that's that's perfectly fun because it's not murder. Is 550 00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:22.720 the involuntary, intentional killing, the taking of a life of 551 00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:29.079 another person, That is I'm sorry, Yes, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, 552 00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:32.960 I'm sorry, you're right, thank you, thank you. Voluntary, not 553 00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:38.359 the I'm speaking in reverse now, not the involuntary taking. 554 00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:41.319 It's like, for example, if this is an involuntary death, 555 00:32:41.319 --> 00:32:43.559 you're not choosing to diet just as a consequence of 556 00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:46.279 what's going on with your medical with you medically. Same 557 00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:52.960 thing with war. Killing people in war is not murder, Okay, 558 00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:57.079 that is not murderous acts. Now doesn't mean that murders 559 00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:00.359 X can't happen within context to war, but fighting a 560 00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:03.960 war is not murder, not by the moral standards of 561 00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:05.640 the church. This is something I had a hard time 562 00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:08.599 explaining to people on TikTok, which is why I just said, 563 00:33:08.599 --> 00:33:10.599 you know what, fuck it, I'm going to just turn 564 00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:13.200 off comments and then maybe we'll come back to it 565 00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:15.160 when people can actually act like adults and have an 566 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:18.680 intelligent conversation. But right now they're not ready for an intelligence. 567 00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:26.720 I know, and I I mean sorry, I'll not say 568 00:33:26.759 --> 00:33:28.880 what I want to say because will take you off. 569 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:32.519 That's fine, I mean, do me the favor, you know, 570 00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:36.759 kick me off. But my point is, my point is 571 00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:40.519 with TikTok, Okay, they weren't willing to have an intelligent conversation. 572 00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:45.319 They could not understand the difference, the difference between making 573 00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:50.839 a moral determination,

making a philosophical determination, making a political determination, 574 00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:55.160 making a scientific or healthcare determination. These are not always 575 00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:59.880 the same thing. Okay. Now, it does sometimes seem that people, 576 00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:03.359 because they're so categorical in their thinking, and as a 577 00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:05.920 categorical thinker, will be try to lump it all into 578 00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.760 something that's convenient and easy to think about, but the 579 00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:12.840 reality is these don't neatly fit into their own unique packages, 580 00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:15.119 and which is why the example that we talked about 581 00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:19.559 last week that dealt with, you know, ken a woman 582 00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:22.519 who's dying, you have an abortion, well, you know that's 583 00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:24.920 where I was. I was even a bit confused by 584 00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:30.920 it because the language that was being used was not compatible. 585 00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:33.519 And the interesting thing is is that the document what 586 00:34:33.559 --> 00:34:39.880 was the document again, father, Oh, do you remember the 587 00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:44.239 one that talks about look it up? That came out 588 00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:48.280 in nineteen ninety five, which incidentally was when I was 589 00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:52.840 in seminary. So it explains why I had never heard 590 00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:56.960 anybody talk like that, because that document was not really 591 00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.920 well known yet and we were still very much off 592 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:03.719 on an earlier understanding, which was like basically a no 593 00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:07.840 tolerance policy towards anything that even remotely looked like an abortion. 594 00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:11.480 Now you know again, because the church does grow in wisdom, 595 00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:14.400 and this is an example of how, you know, as 596 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:17.239 long as the abortion is not the goal. You know, 597 00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:21.719 if there's an unintended consequence of the death of a child, 598 00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:24.519 that's not abortion. These people on tik Tok could not 599 00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:27.519 understand that. They're like oh, it's the same thing medically. Okay, me, 600 00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:29.960 medically maybe it is, but it's not the same morally. 601 00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:32.840 How can you not understand that it's medically and morally 602 00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:36.239 they're two different things. And honestly, our show was dealing 603 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:39.519 it with it for largely a philosophical side, which is 604 00:35:39.559 --> 00:35:43.440 even very different from the moral and healthcare side of things. 605 00:35:43.480 --> 00:35:45.960 So you know, this was this is what makes the issues.

606 00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:48.559 It's really it's really going straightforward. 607 00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:51.320 It's the difference between killing I mean, this is always 608 00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:54.239 the I mean the risk of Godwin's law. 609 00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:58.000 There's the there's the. 610 00:35:57.199 --> 00:35:59.039 Question that this asked a lot, would you go back 611 00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:00.360 inside and kill baby Hitler? 612 00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:00.559 Right? 613 00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:05.079 Is the difference between killing baby Hitler and killing Hitler 614 00:36:05.079 --> 00:36:08.360 in nineteen forty five? There you go, Okay, there's the 615 00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:13.000 bloody difference. It's the same act. You're killing the same person. 616 00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.159 But one is of an innocent baby that's not done anything. 617 00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:19.360 One is of somebody who's declared war and murdered millions 618 00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:19.800 of people. 619 00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:20.920 So there you go. 620 00:36:21.159 --> 00:36:24.239 There's a difference for you that even a TikToker should 621 00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:25.039 be able to understand. 622 00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:27.400 I would think so, but I wouldn't count on that one. 623 00:36:27.480 --> 00:36:28.320 I wouldn't count on it. 624 00:36:28.599 --> 00:36:31.119 Well a week when they start seeing well. 625 00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:35.400 Won't because my comments are off, they might not go 626 00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:36.719 back on It's on next season. 627 00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:40.320 I don't blame yet when I when I picture, when 628 00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:43.079 I picture a TikTok user, and I should be careful 629 00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:44.920 because I'm sure, I'm sure at least one of my 630 00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:48.559 children uses it. But when I when I picture a 631 00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:52.960 TikTok user, I see, you know, a mean girl with 632 00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:54.480 the intellects of Ralph Wigham. 633 00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:59.840 That probably makes up a great majority of the users, 634 00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:01.920 all of them, of course, but a great majority of 635 00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:05.880 no doubt. No, it was a very low, very low 636 00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:09.760 intellectual capacity that I was seeing in that particular video. Now, 637 00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:11.199 usually TikTok's not so bad. 638 00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:15.559 It's also owned by a government that's rather promoted abortion 639 00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:18.079 for the best part of at years so far. 640 00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:20.480 Yeah, I guess nobody cares about that anymore. I don't 641 00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:22.079 know what happened with it. Do you ever find out 642 00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:23.280 what Trump did with it? Did we know? 643 00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:26.480 I thought a private buyer. They kept it quiet, and 644 00:37:26.679 --> 00:37:27.320 someone bought it. 645 00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:29.599 I think it was just the talking point and then 646 00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:32.880 they moved on to to Iran and everything else. Now aliens, 647 00:37:33.639 --> 00:37:37.960 So yeah, it's always aliens, So April, that's the best 648 00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.360 I can give on that one. It's not it's not 649 00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:43.440 a murder because the person. It's not suicide because they're 650 00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:45.719 not wanting to die, they're not trying to die. And 651 00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:47.599 it's not murder because they're not trying to kill anyone. 652 00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:51.280 They're actually trying to save lives. And sometimes, yeah, that's 653 00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:54.440 the question, that's the moral aim. So in a medical situation, 654 00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:57.800 sometimes someone has to go and the difficulty becomes who 655 00:37:57.880 --> 00:38:00.719 becomes the more important person? I would say, whoever's the 656 00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:02.679 most viable, you know, I would. 657 00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:04.800 Say why she was canonized by the way, because actually 658 00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.320 she could have legitimately had surgery to remove the cancer, 659 00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:10.360 which would have had the unfortunate effect of killing the baby. 660 00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:14.360 But and that would have been okay by church teaching. 661 00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:16.840 Yeah, that would have been. But she was canonized because 662 00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:18.639 she chose the harder. 663 00:38:18.440 --> 00:38:20.920 Choice, is a sacrificial way. 664 00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:24.960 A sarcrificial and a selfless decision. So it's actually morally 665 00:38:25.079 --> 00:38:29.320 superior in a way. So you know, that's a challenge 666 00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:30.800 for some people today. I think. 667 00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:35.320 We're saying that some moralysis is better than others, and 668 00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:37.800 that always will get you in trouble. You know, the 669 00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:39.840 same with the culture, or some cultures are better than others. 670 00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:41.920 If you say that, you're in big trouble on TikTok. 671 00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:45.360 Yeah, I agree, but it's true. Well, they don't understand philosophy. 672 00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:48.320 I don't teach philosophy anymore. Philosophy is just that's all news. 673 00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:50.840 And you know, the only place you can really learn philosophy, 674 00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:54.519 like professionally, like at at a high academic level would 675 00:38:54.559 --> 00:38:56.840 be in university. And who wants to go get a 676 00:38:56.920 --> 00:38:58.559 degree in philosophy? What are you going to do with that? 677 00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:01.199 Because people got to college make money, and. 678 00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:05.519 Most universities now have removed it

remote philosophy, and even 679 00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:11.760 even the great, even the great universities, I'm low to 680 00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:14.519 name one because I went there and I'm not sure 681 00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:18.360 it's great anymore, but I'm not them. But even the 682 00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:23.320 you've seen that, well there was recently at Oxford a 683 00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:28.039 professor has been basically censured. Who is who is a 684 00:39:28.039 --> 00:39:32.639 professor of philosophy? Even by the way, Richard Dawkins has 685 00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:35.199 has signed the opposition to the vice chancellor saying this 686 00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:40.199 is disgraceful because they allowed a protest within his lecture room. Wow, 687 00:39:41.679 --> 00:39:48.440 so if Oxford's gone and you can't learn philosophy at Oxford. 688 00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:49.079 Luck, right, you have to. You have to tune into 689 00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:53.000 Vested is after dark. It's alive and well here, maybe 690 00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:56.880 not academically, but it leaves. It's it's entertainingly. So we 691 00:39:56.920 --> 00:39:58.559 can make the more academic if people want, but I 692 00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:03.599 fear that will happen. Yeah, it's more tangible. 693 00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:05.079 We want to communicate it. 694 00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:07.880 The whole point of being educated is so you can 695 00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:10.679 then just powro you know, complicated. 696 00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:11.719 Memorize things and stuff. 697 00:40:11.800 --> 00:40:14.679 Yeah, yeah, and read out words people can understand this 698 00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:16.960 to put it in Layman's you know. 699 00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:21.840 I agree with that. All right, April, what's our next question? 700 00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:24.719 Well, I want to say, and I didn't mean to 701 00:40:24.760 --> 00:40:27.440 cause a controversy when I ask the question. It's something 702 00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:29.920 that's there's a lot of people really struggle with that, 703 00:40:30.119 --> 00:40:31.039 and I think it's important. 704 00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:34.880 It's an absolutely necessary question ask There's nothing wrong with 705 00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:38.039 asking it. But it is to be noted that there's 706 00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:41.800 nothing that can be discussed by a church in particular 707 00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:45.719 that will cause more controversy than that subject, particularly today. 708 00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:48.599 I mean, it's always been very volatile, but today it's 709 00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:52.440 so much worse because women have been sold a bill 710 00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:57.599 of goods that really has been conditioning them to feel 711 00:40:57.679 --> 00:41:00.639 that the patriarchy has been trying to chip away at 712 00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:04.280 their rights and their privileges ever since the beginning of time, 713 00:41:04.840 -->

00:41:07.079 and that this is still going on and we're still 714 00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:10.679 doing it, and dirty rotten bishops in the church are 715 00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:13.519 still doing it because they don't They wouldn't be doing 716 00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:16.639 this if they got pregnant. It's only because they can't 717 00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:18.719 get pregnant that they're making rules like this. This is 718 00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:25.239 how Yeah, this is the attitude, even though it has 719 00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:28.639 nothing at all to do with the subject matter. It 720 00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:31.079 has nothing to do with it, and you can't until 721 00:41:31.079 --> 00:41:33.800 you take them through a five year degree. They'll never 722 00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:34.559 understand it. 723 00:41:35.079 --> 00:41:38.119 No, but that's why they do it, because the subject 724 00:41:38.199 --> 00:41:40.519 matter is not on their side. I mean, you know, 725 00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:44.199 and that's why it's you know, a distraction to say, 726 00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:49.079 because when I engage with this, I choose not to argue. Okay, 727 00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:53.199 let's accept that I'm a patriarchal woman hating Ma'm. 728 00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.119 Okay, let's say that is read now came we get 729 00:41:55.159 --> 00:41:56.079 to the argument. 730 00:41:56.199 --> 00:42:01.239 You misogynists. That's what they'll say. 731 00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:02.159 That's what. 732 00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:08.679 Well, the response is I wouldn't talk to someone who 733 00:42:08.679 --> 00:42:11.760 believes that. Okay, so you have no interest in the 734 00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:15.519 arguments episode, there's no point resisting. I mean, I said, 735 00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:17.360 I sent the Bishop of hit a hit piece on 736 00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:20.039 me that the guard are left wing. Guardian journalist had 737 00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:22.480 written last week and he's the best advert in the 738 00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:26.639 world for what I do. And uh, And what's interesting 739 00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:29.880 is the paucity of like they can't engage with the arguments, 740 00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:32.199 they can just try and say you shouldn't be allowed 741 00:42:32.199 --> 00:42:32.639 to speak. 742 00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:36.960 I understand that, and I know why. You know, people 743 00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:39.440 like Charlie Kirk were popular because they, you know, they 744 00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:41.320 actually tried to fight against that kind of stuff. I 745 00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:44.119 didn't agree with his methods, but I did understand his. 746 00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:45.519 His became at a price. 747 00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:47.719 It came at a big price, I understood. Look, I 748 00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:50.159 was very critical of his methods, you know, and he 749 00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:52.519 was nowhere near as informed as he liked to believe. 750

00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:54.880 He was about a lot of many things, I'll tell you, 751 00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:59.239 But I I understand the motive. I understand the need 752 00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:02.639 to have to be a voice against that kind of thinking. 753 00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:05.159 I'm not sure he was the best poster child for it. 754 00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:06.840 I think there are other people that could have done 755 00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:09.840 a better job. But I understood why he did what 756 00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:11.719 he did, and I understand why people liked him for it. 757 00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:14.079 I get it. I do. I get it, because you know, 758 00:43:14.840 --> 00:43:18.320 you can't just make scapegoats out of your enemies and say, oh, 759 00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:20.119 you're the cause of all of our problems because you 760 00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:23.280 check all the boxes. Oh you're male, you're white, or whatever, 761 00:43:23.559 --> 00:43:25.760 and you know everything's wrong with you because of it. 762 00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:29.199 I mean, that's that's just another type of sexism racism, 763 00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:31.599 and if you don't see it, there's nothing you can 764 00:43:31.639 --> 00:43:33.079 do to help you. But it is, whether you like 765 00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:34.559 it or not, it is that's racism. 766 00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:37.760 That's what I say, I assume in my gender. 767 00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:41.840 You all right, So, April, what's our next question? 768 00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:42.920 All right? 769 00:43:43.400 --> 00:43:48.119 Is removing an unwelcome guest from a funeral considered keeping 770 00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:51.079 someone from God? And this came up on last week's Vestiges. 771 00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:56.079 Okay, I I think I know the person that you're 772 00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:59.920 talking about. This was a much more complicated scenario than 773 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:06.559 this question suggests. Now, I I would say that what 774 00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:11.800 happened here was I gotta be careful with this one 775 00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:13.239 because I don't want to I don't know what he 776 00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:21.760 revealed in the chat. But what happened at this particular situation, 777 00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:28.320 using as a generic verbiage as I can, is that 778 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:35.079 there is there's there's challenges within this family, a lot 779 00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:39.760 of hard feelings, a young child. His young child became 780 00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:46.760 terminally ill and and is now deceased. And this group 781 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:49.960 of problematic family members were not invited to this funeral 782 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:56.000 but showed up anyway, and long story short, police recalled, 783 00:44:56.760 --> 00:45:00.440 they were escorted out the The family asked Gord out, 784 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:05.480 accused him of keeping them from God.

My response to 785 00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:08.679 this individual was, and this is my answer to the question, 786 00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:13.559 is that a funeral the death of a child's not 787 00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:16.920 the time to be getting into that kind of family drama. 788 00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:19.480 The appropriate response would be to grin and bear it 789 00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:22.440 even though it happened, and then deal with it after 790 00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:24.360 the fact. I don't think the funeral was the time 791 00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:27.280 to do it, Certainly not to call the police and 792 00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:30.440 get a big dramatic thing involved when people are trying 793 00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:33.280 to be there to mourn. I think that was not 794 00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:37.000 the best decision. But you know, they accused him of 795 00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:39.320 being a sinner and everything else. So the fact of 796 00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:42.840 the matter is, look, it's not that there's no sin here, 797 00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:46.360 maybe not the best decision was made, but then again, 798 00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:49.199 you're emotionally compromised. You just lost a child for God's sake, 799 00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:54.639 so you know it's understandable. But you know, in that 800 00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:57.400 particular scenario, I'd say, no, it would have been probably 801 00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:01.639 better to it's not immoral, don't have them removed, but 802 00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:06.039 it probably would have been better for everybody involved if 803 00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:09.239 you just been quiet and waited. I think that would 804 00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:11.880 have been the better thing to do. But you know, 805 00:46:12.039 --> 00:46:12.599 things happen. 806 00:46:12.679 --> 00:46:14.599 I've had to deal with lots of I mean I 807 00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:17.760 did one of the parishes I was at. 808 00:46:17.800 --> 00:46:21.079 I mean I would have got maybe three four funerals 809 00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:21.519 a week. 810 00:46:21.840 --> 00:46:24.199 So I've dealt with a lot of funerals. 811 00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:27.199 And it was a part of the world where there 812 00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:33.440 are some spicy people, shall we say, funerals that have 813 00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:39.679 involved criminals, biky gangs, all that sort of thing, right, 814 00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:45.679 So I'm not unfamiliar with conducting funerals where there are 815 00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:48.280 family tensions. 816 00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:51.400 Yeah, it's much more common now. 817 00:46:51.639 --> 00:46:53.800 I mean it's almost impossible to find, you know, to 818 00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:58.519 find some you know, older person that's been buried where 819 00:46:58.440 --> 00:47:01.079 there's not a divorce in the fat right, you know, 820 00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:04.400 and all the stuff that goes with it. So I 821 00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:10.000 was pretty ruthless with people and so so, and this 822 00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:12.079 is not really about this person because I don't know. 823 00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:13.960 I didn't this passed me by last week, so I 824 00:47:13.960 --> 00:47:16.880 don't I don't know anything about that, So which puts 825 00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:18.199 me in a position of strength when I'm. 826 00:47:18.119 --> 00:47:22.800 Talking about I think, but I was pretty ruthless. 827 00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:27.280 I would say, any service that takes place in my 828 00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:30.119 church is a public event. 829 00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:35.239 So anybody can go to a church service. They're advertised that. 830 00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:35.599 You know. 831 00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:39.320 Now, if you disrupt a church service in the state 832 00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:41.000 of New South Wales, that's a criminal offense. 833 00:47:41.000 --> 00:47:44.320 The police can come and remove you with that. I 834 00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:46.440 do agree with that, and it's quite reassuring law. 835 00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:49.400 I think that's quite a good law actually, And so 836 00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:53.440 in England, not the common law, parish parish councilors have 837 00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:55.800 powers of arrest. Actually it's it's the origin of the 838 00:47:55.800 --> 00:47:59.920 police force came from the parish church church wardens how 839 00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:00.599 powers of rest. 840 00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:01.960 It's while they carry staffs of office. 841 00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:03.760 It was to hit people with, you know, and from 842 00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:06.280 that we end up with with parish constables and then 843 00:48:06.320 --> 00:48:11.440 police constables and then it goes out. So so but 844 00:48:11.480 --> 00:48:13.519 I used to say, it's a public event. Anybody can 845 00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:15.320 come to an act of worship. I can't stop them, 846 00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:18.199 right and I wouldn't want to stop them either, But 847 00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:23.920 I can't stop them. But I was I would sometimes 848 00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:28.119 I had the police on standby outside because they were 849 00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:31.679 dangerous people, and I was a police chaplain and so 850 00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:34.639 they'd always come and help me out anyway at an 851 00:48:34.639 --> 00:48:37.960 ex copper so and I used to say, look, anyone 852 00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:41.079 can come. Anyone's welcome to worship. If there's any nonsense, 853 00:48:41.239 --> 00:48:44.400 you're gone. And I'm in charge of this church, you. 854 00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:49.760 Know, Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. I think the real issue 855 00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:50.599 here is that. 856 00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:54.400 Off the family in other words, you know, because it's 857 00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:55.119 really unfair. 858 00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:02.519 This sounds

like a desperately horrible saying. And I really 859 00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:06.639 think that the issue really was just you don't need 860 00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:09.639 more drama, particularly right now this, you know, it would 861 00:49:09.679 --> 00:49:11.440 be better to deal with it after the fact, not. 862 00:49:12.920 --> 00:49:13.360 Committed. 863 00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:15.599 No, there's no sin. Because they were talking. He was 864 00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:18.159 also told he was also told that he was going 865 00:49:18.199 --> 00:49:20.480 to go to hell for this, and I need to 866 00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:22.360 reassure him that no, you do not go to hell 867 00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:30.159 for making that original Yeah, so yeah, you're. 868 00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:31.880 Fine, You're not going to hell, you're listening. You're not 869 00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:32.119 going to. 870 00:49:32.119 --> 00:49:34.519 Help, You're not going Okay, it's just it's just a 871 00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:35.880 shitty situation. 872 00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:37.880 Committed. 873 00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:41.320 Yeah, yeah, it's just not the best time to do it. 874 00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:43.480 Probably should have dealt with it after the fact. But 875 00:49:43.519 --> 00:49:47.559 there's no sin that's committed. Okay, what's our next one? People, No, 876 00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:49.159 you can't, and sometimes things happen. 877 00:49:50.639 --> 00:49:54.519 Next question comes from Lee off of Facebook, and they asked, 878 00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:58.199 do you think we cause our own problems by speaking 879 00:49:58.239 --> 00:49:59.760 negatively about something? 880 00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:03.679 Well, this is more of a metaphysical kind of question. 881 00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:07.159 I would say that it doesn't help you. I'm not 882 00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:09.639 going to say in all situations that all of your 883 00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:12.000 problems are the result of being negative, but I will 884 00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:14.440 say if you are a negative person, you're going to 885 00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:18.559 have your lion's share of problems. Like a tracts like 886 00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:21.719 that is one of the definitions. Yeah, I know, right, Yeah, 887 00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:25.119 and so it is. It is the fundamental primary occult 888 00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:28.360 law that exists for all of us. Whether you believe 889 00:50:28.400 --> 00:50:30.280 in the occult or not, whether you like it or not, 890 00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:32.239 whether you're afraid of it or not, does not matter. 891 00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:34.320 The cult doesn't care if you like it or are 892 00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:35.920 afraid of it or if you believe in it, it 893 00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:39.400 does not care. It is a material type of thing, 894 00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:41.800 but it does exist. These laws do exist, and it 895 00:50:41.800 --> 00:50:43.760 may be the better way of putting it to rest 896 00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:46.000 people's minds is to not say there are cult laws, 897 00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:48.679 even though they are, but to understand what an occult 898 00:50:48.760 --> 00:50:50.840 law is, and what an occult law is is that 899 00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:53.599 which governs the incorporeal parts of the cosmos, the things 900 00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:58.559 that science cannot rationally observe, and then make a law 901 00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:00.519 based upon what it can observe. So you get the 902 00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:03.199 laws of physics, which are physical laws, but the laws 903 00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:08.000 of the incorporeal parts of this cosmos operate under a 904 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:11.440 different series of laws, and like attract like is one 905 00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:14.320 of the primary ones. So yeah, if you're a very 906 00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:18.079 negative person, then negative things are going to find you, okay, 907 00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:21.880 because that's what you're resonating out, So you think of 908 00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:25.159 yourself as a magnet. The more negative you are, the 909 00:51:25.239 --> 00:51:29.480 more negative types of things that are in your proximity 910 00:51:29.559 --> 00:51:32.679 will be attracted to that. And the more that you 911 00:51:32.920 --> 00:51:36.639 walk around and expose yourself to the environment, the more 912 00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:40.559 that have If places have negative things in them, are 913 00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:44.320 going to come to you and wreck havoc on your life. Likewise, 914 00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:49.079 if you're a very positive person, then the opposite can happen. 915 00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:53.000 My bishop taught me a wonderful practice. I actually wish 916 00:51:53.079 --> 00:51:56.079 that I remembered to do it more often because it 917 00:51:56.119 --> 00:52:00.079 is such a wonderful thing. But he taught me to 918 00:52:00.519 --> 00:52:03.840 do my best is part of my exercise of mindfulness 919 00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:07.119 that I already integrate into my life. So it's almost 920 00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:10.760 a type of meditation really, But rather than to just 921 00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:13.960 make it a self directed sort of exercise, he encouraged 922 00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:16.679 me to make it more external, in the sense that 923 00:52:16.719 --> 00:52:20.480 when I'm out there being mindful, to be what he 924 00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:24.920 called a walking blessing. So as you're going through a mall, 925 00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:29.039 shopping center, you know, airport, wherever you happen to find yourself, 926 00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:32.400 where there's lots of people around, as you cross each 927 00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:36.800 other's path, just quietly in your mind look at the 928 00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:41.199 person and in your mind say make God bless you, 929 00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:43.840 and you just keep going

through as you will. As 930 00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:47.239 people cross your path, you keep you make eye contact, 931 00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:50.159 you maybe smile if they see you. And then in 932 00:52:50.199 --> 00:52:53.480 your mind you don't say this, you know a verbally 933 00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:56.039 or out You just make it an internal thing, but 934 00:52:56.199 --> 00:52:58.559 directed at them, you know, or you can even make 935 00:52:58.599 --> 00:53:01.400 the God bless this person. May God bless this person, 936 00:53:01.400 --> 00:53:03.719 and you just keep doing this, and I'll tell you 937 00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:06.159 right now, you want to see your life change as 938 00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:08.880 far as like negativity, if you're finding yourself into a 939 00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:10.960 negative pattern, or if you believe yourself to be the 940 00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:13.800 victim of some kind of curse, do that for a 941 00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:16.920 little while. If you're really if you're really attentive to it, 942 00:53:17.079 --> 00:53:19.719 you make it a regular habit to do, you're gonna 943 00:53:19.719 --> 00:53:23.599 see your life change and sometimes radically, very quickly. And 944 00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:27.360 that all is based on the same principle of like attracts. 945 00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:30.159 Like this is just doing something good, you know, going 946 00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:32.000 out there and just being an instrument because what the 947 00:53:32.079 --> 00:53:34.559 universe looks at you and then says, oh, you're one 948 00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:36.679 of these people that gives blessings, Well, then I guess 949 00:53:36.760 --> 00:53:39.039 blessings need to find this person so that they can 950 00:53:39.039 --> 00:53:42.480 give more, and so it increases your own abundance of grace. 951 00:53:42.519 --> 00:53:45.639 And this is even without religious belief. That's the beauty 952 00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:48.119 of this thing is that God built it so perfectly 953 00:53:48.199 --> 00:53:51.519 into the fabric of creation itself that it doesn't even 954 00:53:51.679 --> 00:53:54.800 need even though it's best if it operates under the 955 00:53:55.639 --> 00:53:58.840 understanding of a relationship with God. It doesn't even require one, 956 00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:00.880 because it's just how the cosmos. 957 00:54:00.440 --> 00:54:02.159 Is built, raising your vibration. 958 00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:05.119 It does, it raises your vibration. And so a lot 959 00:54:05.119 --> 00:54:07.000 of times when you see people that are having these 960 00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:10.000 horrible things constantly happen to them, you know, you get 961 00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:12.800 into their their their story, and you find they're just negative, 962 00:54:13.119 --> 00:54:15.599 freaking people. They did, they're they're they're angry at the world, 963 00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:19.480 they hate everybody, They're always upset about

something, and yeah, 964 00:54:19.519 --> 00:54:26.000 how can that not continuously produce uh negative consequences? Of 965 00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:28.079 course it will. So, yeah, the answer to the question 966 00:54:28.159 --> 00:54:31.639 is absolutely not all problems. And sometimes bad luck is 967 00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:34.280 a thing, you know. And what I call bad luck 968 00:54:34.360 --> 00:54:37.679 is not like some kind of mystical property out there 969 00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:40.599 that we call luck. What I would say luck is 970 00:54:40.599 --> 00:54:44.960 is essentially just the randomness of the cosmos where sometimes 971 00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:47.360 randomly bad things happen, they have to happen to someone. 972 00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:50.599 Sometimes it happens to be you, you know, And but likewise, 973 00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:53.599 sometimes good things happen to people, and occasionally it's going 974 00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:55.440 to fall into your lap as well. So it's kind 975 00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:58.440 of an equal distribution type of thing, but a contrary 976 00:54:58.480 --> 00:55:01.519 to a lot of belief, God does not control every 977 00:55:01.599 --> 00:55:05.119 nitty gritty detail of everything that happens. God controls the 978 00:55:05.199 --> 00:55:08.000 things that matter, which is what leads us to salvation. 979 00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:10.159 That's where God intervenes. But the rest of it, so 980 00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:13.880 that's really just a random distribution beyond that. So God 981 00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:17.440 is not orchestrating every little detail, all the minutia of 982 00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:20.280 our lives. That's not true. And that's why bad things 983 00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:24.840 can happen, because he's not orchestrating all of it. Some 984 00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:27.039 of it's personal responsibility. He wants us to have to 985 00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:29.719 learn to deal with these things as well, you know, 986 00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:33.800 and and and so he lets bad happen on the basis. 987 00:55:33.400 --> 00:55:36.360 That he's gonna have to live with. 988 00:55:36.360 --> 00:55:37.239 Us for all eternity. 989 00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:41.440 So yeah, that's right. If you're gonna be with me, 990 00:55:41.440 --> 00:55:42.400 you're gonna know how to deal with. 991 00:55:44.440 --> 00:55:46.360 But it's also where you know, I mean, I know 992 00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:50.400 often we kind of whip evangelicals on this show, and yeah, 993 00:55:50.599 --> 00:55:53.039 sometimes that's sometimes that's required. But I want to give 994 00:55:53.079 --> 00:55:57.760 some credit here, okay, And you know, because and again 995 00:55:57.800 --> 00:56:01.039 for the record, it was an evangelical church that introduced 996 00:56:01.079 --> 00:56:05.000 me to the Christian gospel and where I found that actually. 997 00:56:04.679 --> 00:56:05.199 It was true. 998 00:56:05.239 --> 00:56:07.519 So so there you go. So you've got to win. 999 00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:11.280 You've got a w evangelicals. But I do want to 1000 00:56:11.320 --> 00:56:15.280 say that and it happened with me as well when 1001 00:56:15.320 --> 00:56:18.400 you said you can see it in somebody, That is true, 1002 00:56:18.800 --> 00:56:21.480 you know, when when when people who've been in pretty 1003 00:56:21.519 --> 00:56:25.000 dark places, which as adults, the reason that people come 1004 00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:27.599 to faith is because they're going through some sort of crisis. 1005 00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:28.960 Right, Yeah, it's never. 1006 00:56:29.159 --> 00:56:31.440 It's never because everything's swimming like you know, you know, 1007 00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:35.079 I'm a I'm a billionaire and really enjoying my life, 1008 00:56:35.119 --> 00:56:37.280 and my family are perfect and no one's ever died, 1009 00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:39.960 you know, that's not when you come to faith generally. Actually, 1010 00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:42.280 if someone like that does come to faith, hats off to. 1011 00:56:42.239 --> 00:56:43.800 Them, that's amazing, you know. 1012 00:56:43.880 --> 00:56:46.920 But but generally it's because they've been in a pretty 1013 00:56:47.079 --> 00:56:51.760 shitty place and so and you can see like when 1014 00:56:51.800 --> 00:56:54.880 people convert that there's you can see it in their 1015 00:56:54.920 --> 00:57:00.119 eyes and and it is a miracle, you know, but 1016 00:57:00.159 --> 00:57:03.880 it's an ordinary miracle, yes, And so I want to 1017 00:57:03.880 --> 00:57:07.320 give evangelical some credit because they really do seek that 1018 00:57:07.639 --> 00:57:10.320 in people, and that's a good thing to want to do. 1019 00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:12.400 Yeah, something nice. 1020 00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:17.239 Everyone has a good side, even evangelical. All right, well, 1021 00:57:17.239 --> 00:57:18.639 I know you have a bonus question. I think we 1022 00:57:18.679 --> 00:57:20.440 have time to answer it, so let's go for it. 1023 00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:21.800 Okay. 1024 00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:25.159 So it says you have spoken of the psychic filter 1025 00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:27.840 that protects us from the spirit realm so we don't 1026 00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:30.599 go crazy. Then you mentioned about people trying to find 1027 00:57:30.599 --> 00:57:33.599 ways to take down that filter, like people trying to 1028 00:57:33.639 --> 00:57:37.280 become mediums, et cetera. My question is don't we need 1029 00:57:37.320 --> 00:57:39.360 to be able to do that to an extent so 1030 00:57:39.400 --> 00:57:41.639 that we can have a relationship or dialogue with the 1031 00:57:41.639 --> 00:57:44.920 spirit realm on or the first reflection the archetypes. 1032 00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:46.559 What is a safe way to do that? 1033 00:57:47.039 --> 00:57:52.760 Okay, So this is a metaphysical question, esoteric question. The 1034 00:57:52.880 -->

00:57:57.920 questions refering to the psychic sensor, which is a not 1035 00:57:57.960 --> 00:58:01.440 really a physical thing. It's just a way that our 1036 00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:07.519 psyche as protects itself by filtering out spiritual data points 1037 00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:11.760 that are not conducive to our existence here in this 1038 00:58:11.920 --> 00:58:16.840 material plane of existence. And if we could literally see 1039 00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:19.599 all of the incorporeal things that are happening all around us, 1040 00:58:20.320 --> 00:58:23.519 we would quite quickly go mad, we would, and it happens, 1041 00:58:23.559 --> 00:58:28.280 and think about your near your nd imagine if that 1042 00:58:28.440 --> 00:58:31.320 was what you saw all the time while you're trying 1043 00:58:31.360 --> 00:58:34.519 to do police work or trying to do anything. I mean, 1044 00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:35.400 it's crazy. 1045 00:58:35.719 --> 00:58:39.719 After that experience, some of the uh, some of the 1046 00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:43.199 incidents I did deal with in law enforcement absolutely had 1047 00:58:43.199 --> 00:58:48.239 a supernatural paranormal uh component to it that I didn't 1048 00:58:48.239 --> 00:58:52.960 realize at the time. But reflecting back, yeah, you see 1049 00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:56.000 too much. When when you see too much when in 1050 00:58:56.039 --> 00:58:59.239 the moment, you you're trained to file it away for later, 1051 00:58:59.679 --> 00:59:04.320 get the mission done, and then then you realize afterwards, 1052 00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:05.639 what was that? 1053 00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:07.880 You know, And it's really what makes me to. 1054 00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:10.199 See the more you kind of question reality. 1055 00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:13.599 What makes it so dangerous is that it has a 1056 00:59:13.639 --> 00:59:18.800 shelf life. The psychic sensor, it only has so much resistance. 1057 00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:21.760 It's it's kind of like well, any other part of 1058 00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:24.480 the human body, right, I mean, for a while, use 1059 00:59:24.519 --> 00:59:26.840 it or lose it is the rule. But eventually you 1060 00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:29.519 reach a point where the more the more you use it, 1061 00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:31.960 the more you lose it because it eventually just wears out. 1062 00:59:32.599 --> 00:59:35.320 And the psychic sensor can be worn out and and 1063 00:59:35.800 --> 00:59:39.800 sometimes people go out of their way through occult techniques 1064 00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:42.360 to wear it down. And the fact of the matter is, 1065 00:59:42.400 --> 00:59:45.280 once you break it, you can't get it back, and 1066 00:59:45.400 --> 00:59:49.960 that can absolutely lead to a type of madness, and 1067 00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:52.960 it will present as a type of acute psychosis, but 1068 00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:56.840 it won't be a medical condition at that point. It 1069 00:59:56.880 --> 00:59:59.480 will be definitely something that occurred at more of the 1070 00:59:59.519 --> 01:00:00.559 spiritual level. 1071 01:00:00.760 --> 01:00:02.639 And I think we've talked about this before, maybe on 1072 01:00:02.679 --> 01:00:06.079 this show. Yeah, just sitting around smoking cigars. I think 1073 01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:08.840 quite a few people that are in mental institutions. I 1074 01:00:08.880 --> 01:00:10.719 think that may have been what happened. And I think 1075 01:00:10.719 --> 01:00:13.800 you've mentioned this too. Their psychic sensor breaks and all 1076 01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:16.960 of a sudden, they see everything and it's way too much. 1077 01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:20.239 Their brain can't handle it. So next thing, you know, 1078 01:00:20.800 --> 01:00:21.360 I met. 1079 01:00:21.199 --> 01:00:24.400 So many people in law enforcement. That's when you meet people. 1080 01:00:24.199 --> 01:00:25.440 Like that, right, Yep, that's true. 1081 01:00:25.559 --> 01:00:29.679 So because like all of the filters are gone. 1082 01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:33.360 And they see everything, they can't understand why you don't 1083 01:00:33.400 --> 01:00:33.719 see it. 1084 01:00:34.239 --> 01:00:38.599 So the reality is there is no safe way to 1085 01:00:38.639 --> 01:00:42.440 disable it. Okay, it always comes at the risk of 1086 01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:47.039 breaking it forever, cannot be fixed, cannot be repaired. You 1087 01:00:47.079 --> 01:00:48.760 only have to learn to deal with it, which most 1088 01:00:48.760 --> 01:00:53.480 people cannot figure out how to do. Religion, and this 1089 01:00:53.639 --> 01:00:55.599 is where people are going to be upset with me, 1090 01:00:55.719 --> 01:00:58.800 but it's the truth. Religion offers the most reasonable method 1091 01:00:58.880 --> 01:01:02.800 for bending it. But even this is something I would 1092 01:01:02.840 --> 01:01:05.760 not say it's safe, because religion is not safe. Don't 1093 01:01:05.800 --> 01:01:08.119 think because it has the word Jesus attached to it 1094 01:01:08.119 --> 01:01:10.039 that it's all of a sudden safe. There's nothing safe 1095 01:01:10.039 --> 01:01:13.119 about Jesus, all right, There's nothing safe about Jesus. It's 1096 01:01:13.159 --> 01:01:20.559 all sacrifice and and and his disciples, I know, right, Yeah, 1097 01:01:20.599 --> 01:01:23.000 So no, there's no safe way to do it. There is. 1098 01:01:23.159 --> 01:01:27.880 There is a skillful way to utilize methods that help 1099 01:01:28.039 --> 01:01:34.599 to do uh productive or provide productive results. But I 1100 01:01:34.639 --> 01:01:37.239 would not say there's a safe way, and I would 1101 01:01:37.280 --> 01:01:39.039 definitely say it is not something. 1102 01:01:40.719 --> 01:01:40.920 Yeah. 1103 01:01:40.960 --> 01:01:47.199 Yeah, that's why you know these are spiritual preparations, because 1104 01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:51.280 that is like the ultimate spiritual reality. It's why we

1105 01:01:51.320 --> 01:01:53.719 burn in sense, it's why we have lower the lights 1106 01:01:53.719 --> 01:01:55.880 and burn candles and all the things that we do 1107 01:01:56.000 --> 01:01:59.280 at a Catholic mass is to is to gently bend 1108 01:01:59.599 --> 01:02:02.360 the psycho sensor, so we become a little bit slightly 1109 01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:05.840 more susceptible to the spiritual world, but not in a 1110 01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:07.400 way that's harmful. Okay. 1111 01:02:07.440 --> 01:02:12.039 Difference between you know, gently opening up a door and 1112 01:02:12.159 --> 01:02:15.880 peeking inside and getting a picture of everything in there, 1113 01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:20.840 and then being introduced slowly and as opposed to kicking 1114 01:02:20.840 --> 01:02:22.880 in the door, running in guns blazing. 1115 01:02:23.159 --> 01:02:26.480 Yeah, And unfortunately, most most of the Llewellyn books out 1116 01:02:26.519 --> 01:02:28.880 there that cheats you some kind of new age method 1117 01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:30.920 of doing this is going to be kicking in the door, 1118 01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:33.480 and you're gonna end up knocked on your ass. Let 1119 01:02:33.519 --> 01:02:35.599 me tell you. Okay, so we're gonna take our first 1120 01:02:35.599 --> 01:02:36.920 break here at the top of the hour. When we 1121 01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:41.039 come back, I will give a presentation on esoteric Christianity. 1122 01:02:41.079 --> 01:02:41.920 Don't go away. 1123 01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:54.000 Money bud nail money, bud money, bud nail money, bu 1124 01:02:57.320 --> 01:03:01.800 money money by. 1125 01:03:04.079 --> 01:03:07.239 Money, but mail more money but nail money. Put bill 1126 01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:12.000 money but nail want to put mail money but mail 1127 01:03:12.239 --> 01:03:16.119 more money but mail money mail money, bet mal want. 1128 01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:16.719 To put nail. 1129 01:03:18.480 --> 01:03:30.159 Money by mail, money by dail money by nail money, god. 1130 01:03:32.599 --> 01:03:44.199 Money money by money by nail money, bad. 1131 01:03:46.440 --> 01:03:51.079 Money that dail, nail, the money, that nail. 1132 01:03:53.400 --> 01:03:53.960 The money, that. 1133 01:03:54.800 --> 01:03:58.119 Money, bet malt money but nail. 1134 01:04:13.559 --> 01:04:15.639 My money. 1135 01:04:18.480 --> 01:04:31.880 Money, oh money money Right now, my neighbor, live, my neighbor, live, 1136 01:04:32.159 --> 01:04:37.199 my my neighbor, bible my neighbor bill money, he got mail, 1137 01:04:38.960 --> 01:04:44.079 O money by name, Oh money by. 1138 01:04:44.039 --> 01:04:47.960 Name, O money, got naw. 1139 01:04:49.840 --> 01:04:57.559 Money by level, Oh my money by now, oh money 1140 01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:02.119 by now home, Oh money mail. 1141 01:05:04.400 --> 01:05:42.760 But nail money, money but nail money. 1142 01:05:15.239 --> 01:05:15.320 No. 1143 01:05:32.599 --> 01:05:46.039 Money, bud no money, bad, oh money, bad mail, Oh 1144 01:05:46.239 --> 01:08:06.559 money but mailst. 1145 01:06:58.280 --> 01:08:37.079 St st st st st st st st. 1146 01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:47.079 St st st st. 1147 01:08:47.760 --> 01:08:49.800 St st st. 1148 01:08:51.399 --> 01:08:54.359 St st st st. 1149 01:08:55.960 --> 01:10:53.079 St corn over hacker, wear, the noise, the musson kirry 1150 01:10:53.279 --> 01:10:55.000 rushed as the toys. 1151 01:11:11.640 --> 01:11:12.960 It's kind of feet by. 1152 01:11:19.079 --> 01:11:20.439 It's kind of feet bay. 1153 01:11:26.600 --> 01:11:27.920 It's not a met bay. 1154 01:11:28.479 --> 01:11:31.520 It's not a paint bay. It's not a paintba. 1155 01:11:32.239 --> 01:11:32.800 It's not a. 1156 01:12:17.159 --> 01:12:20.199 Welcome back everyone to the second hour of Vestiges after dark. 1157 01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:24.239 Now we are going to begin tonight's topic on esoteric Christianity. 1158 01:12:24.279 --> 01:12:27.000 I'll present I'll try to go more brief than I 1159 01:12:27.079 --> 01:12:29.119 usually do on these presentations. I just want to go 1160 01:12:29.199 --> 01:12:31.319 over a little bit about what it is and how 1161 01:12:31.399 --> 01:12:34.479 this church integrates that, what it means to be an 1162 01:12:34.640 --> 01:12:37.600 esoteric Catholic church. A lot of people are confused about 1163 01:12:37.640 --> 01:12:39.680 that with Nikola and Catholicism. So I'm going to clear 1164 01:12:39.720 --> 01:12:42.960 it all up tonight. Okay, So don't go anywhere that's 1165 01:12:43.119 --> 01:13:33.600 coming up. Okay, so I you know, usually I go 1166 01:13:33.960 --> 01:13:37.880 the whole segment on these, I'm going to try me 1167 01:13:37.960 --> 01:13:40.279 I have enough material to do that, but I'm going 1168 01:13:40.359 --> 01:13:42.920 to try to keep it more condensed tonight because I'd 1169 01:13:42.960 --> 01:13:45.039 like to stick too closer to maybe twenty minutes on 1170 01:13:45.119 --> 01:13:47.000 this and then leave the rest of the show to 1171 01:13:47.119 --> 01:13:49.640 kind of talk about it and break it down from there. 1172 01:13:49.760 --> 01:13:53.039 But I want to get cover some very specific points 1173 01:13:53.159 --> 01:13:56.159 because I think these are really important. I know that 1174 01:13:56.439 --> 01:13:59.079 just from every mass that we stream on the YouTube 1175 01:13:59.119 --> 01:14:02.520 and Facebook channel, I am always shocked at some of 1176 01:14:02.560 --> 01:14:07.000 the ignorance that gets thrown out there during mass. There 1177 01:14:07.039 --> 01:14:12.560 are people that will quote that part of the is 1178 01:14:12.640 --> 01:14:15.000 it revelation where they'll talk about the Nickelations. 1179 01:14:15.279 --> 01:14:15.560 That was. 1180 01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:23.880 Not the licentious group. Okay, we are, we are, we 1181 01:14:24.079 --> 01:14:28.520 are the Nicollayan Church after Saint Nicholas, you know, Santa Claus. Okay, 1182 01:14:29.399 -->

01:14:32.359 it is, that's that's what it means, That's what the 1183 01:14:32.439 --> 01:14:34.640 church means. And I didn't choose the name, so don't 1184 01:14:34.680 --> 01:14:37.760 blame me. I felt, honestly it was a little bit 1185 01:14:37.920 --> 01:14:42.039 uh well, I felt it was over complicated, but I 1186 01:14:42.199 --> 01:14:44.279 was overruled on that one that was before I actually 1187 01:14:44.279 --> 01:14:47.159 administrated the church, but you know, I wasn't even a 1188 01:14:47.199 --> 01:14:52.359 bishop at that time. But anyway, Yeah, so the Nicolayan 1189 01:14:52.439 --> 01:14:56.840 Church is after Saint Nicholas, and we are an esoteric 1190 01:14:57.399 --> 01:15:02.600 Catholic church inspired by early Christianity. That's how we define ourselves. 1191 01:15:03.039 --> 01:15:05.560 You can find out everything you want to know, beyond 1192 01:15:05.640 --> 01:15:07.600 what I'm going to be able to cover tonight at 1193 01:15:07.880 --> 01:15:11.159 Esotericcatholic dot org. That's our website. You can also go 1194 01:15:11.199 --> 01:15:13.720 to nicoleand dot org and I C H O L 1195 01:15:13.840 --> 01:15:17.359 E A N. And just click the faq on the 1196 01:15:17.439 --> 01:15:19.680 menu and it will take you to all of the 1197 01:15:19.800 --> 01:15:22.479 questions that commonly asked, questions that we have to deal with, 1198 01:15:22.680 --> 01:15:24.520 as well as our canons. And we're going to go 1199 01:15:24.600 --> 01:15:26.920 over a lot of those canons tonight. Some of those 1200 01:15:26.960 --> 01:15:28.760 things are going to be maybe a little surprising to you, 1201 01:15:28.920 --> 01:15:31.800 some of them are going to be very familiar. But 1202 01:15:32.119 --> 01:15:35.920 I want to start off with what is esoteric Christianity? Okay, So, 1203 01:15:36.000 --> 01:15:38.680 because when people hear the word esoteric, they often think 1204 01:15:38.920 --> 01:15:44.439 of like a secret religion, you know, an occult religion, 1205 01:15:44.920 --> 01:15:50.119 hidden elitist teachings and anti Christian mysticism thrown in there 1206 01:15:50.479 --> 01:15:52.119 maybe even some gnosticism. 1207 01:15:52.279 --> 01:15:54.640 Oh yeah, we've had that accusation, of course. 1208 01:15:54.439 --> 01:15:57.079 Because there are a lot of esoteric churches that actually 1209 01:15:57.319 --> 01:16:01.520 do follow after some of those characterists. We, however, do not. 1210 01:16:02.239 --> 01:16:05.560 The Nicolin Catholic Church does not use the word esoteric 1211 01:16:05.640 --> 01:16:09.279 in this way. But esoteric is the only way to 1212 01:16:09.359 --> 01:16:14.600 define the kind of Christianity that we practice, because in 1213 01:16:15.199 --> 01:16:21.840 our understanding of the the the belief structure of esoteric Christianity, 1214 01:16:23.319 --> 01:16:27.960 there is really only one absolute public Christianity for ordinary, 1215 01:16:28.720 --> 01:16:32.600 for for for all people, but not necessarily a secret 1216 01:16:32.680 --> 01:16:35.560 Christianity for the spiritual elites. All right, So we are 1217 01:16:36.039 --> 01:16:41.600 one hundred percent with the mainstream Christian churches that teach 1218 01:16:41.680 --> 01:16:45.079 that Christianity is for everyone. We believe the same, and 1219 01:16:45.199 --> 01:16:47.239 we practice the same. In fact, I would say we're 1220 01:16:47.279 --> 01:16:52.439 actually more open to other people than the mainstream Christians are. 1221 01:16:52.560 --> 01:16:54.439 I think we do a better job of that. Okay, 1222 01:16:54.640 --> 01:16:58.399 And you'll see here in a minute. Esoterech Christian does 1223 01:16:58.439 --> 01:17:01.600 not mean that salvation depends on information, hidden codes, or 1224 01:17:01.640 --> 01:17:05.359 occult knowledge, all right. In the Nicolay Church, what we 1225 01:17:05.720 --> 01:17:09.800 mean when we say esoteric, it means that we practice 1226 01:17:10.000 --> 01:17:16.800 a Christianity that is inner, experiential and participatory. That's what 1227 01:17:16.920 --> 01:17:19.840 we mean by it esoteric, because it happens at an 1228 01:17:19.920 --> 01:17:23.560 internal level that is not seen. Okay, even though there's 1229 01:17:23.600 --> 01:17:27.479 the external things that are the same for every sacraments, charity, 1230 01:17:28.159 --> 01:17:34.800 you know, the mass, sermons, pastoral work, outreach ministry, even 1231 01:17:34.840 --> 01:17:37.640 though it has all of those and it does all 1232 01:17:37.680 --> 01:17:39.920 of those things teaching. In fact, we're doing that right now. 1233 01:17:40.479 --> 01:17:46.880 But we believe and our Christianity emphasizes, our method of 1234 01:17:46.960 --> 01:17:53.399 Christianity emphasizes the internal, experiential side of the religion more 1235 01:17:53.520 --> 01:17:57.079 so than the external side. That's the difference, and that's 1236 01:17:57.199 --> 01:17:59.680 really the only difference. But that difference is major in 1237 01:18:00.199 --> 01:18:05.399 ways which we'll see here. Christianity, in our understanding is 1238 01:18:05.439 --> 01:18:08.880 something that's entered into, not something you believe in, not 1239 01:18:09.079 --> 01:18:12.359 something that you practice, but something that you enter into. 1240 01:18:13.199 --> 01:18:17.399 And in the Christian context, this is a relationship thing. 1241 01:18:18.239 --> 01:18:22.439 Some realities cannot be fully understood from the outside. They 1242 01:18:22.479 --> 01:18:26.359 can only be understood once you participate in them. This 1243 01:18:26.560 --> 01:18:32.159 is true for love. You can explain what love is, 1244 01:18:32.279 --> 01:18:34.840 you can define it, but it's not the same thing 1245 01:18:35.000 --> 01:18:41.279 as being loved or giving love. You can explain what 1246 01:18:41.479 --> 01:18:43.960 parenthood is like, but it's not the same thing as 1247 01:18:44.319 --> 01:18:48.279 being a

parent. You can explain what grief is like, 1248 01:18:49.039 --> 01:18:52.479 but it's not the same thing as actually grieving, okay, 1249 01:18:52.640 --> 01:18:55.279 And the same thing is true for prayer and contemplation. 1250 01:18:56.399 --> 01:18:59.399 We can talk about these things, we can claim to 1251 01:18:59.520 --> 01:19:02.479 know what they mean, but until we actually experience what 1252 01:19:02.680 --> 01:19:07.159 they are intrinsically, we really don't know them. And that 1253 01:19:07.439 --> 01:19:12.039 is the esoteric dimension to Christianity. And newsflash, this is 1254 01:19:12.239 --> 01:19:15.520 not different than what it means dream and not just 1255 01:19:15.600 --> 01:19:18.479 stereum of the Church of Rome teaches, and it's certainly 1256 01:19:18.760 --> 01:19:22.399 not different than what the Orthodox churches teach. It's absolutely 1257 01:19:22.479 --> 01:19:26.119 the same thing. The only difference is what is emphasized 1258 01:19:26.640 --> 01:19:29.720 in our church. That is emphasized over all of the 1259 01:19:30.159 --> 01:19:34.800 more legalistic concepts that the Church of Rome gets tied 1260 01:19:34.880 --> 01:19:37.560 up in from time to time, like abortion, politics and 1261 01:19:37.640 --> 01:19:40.520 that kind of thing that we've talked about, right, Yeah, 1262 01:19:40.600 --> 01:19:42.640 I mean we deal with it sometimes. It's something that 1263 01:19:42.760 --> 01:19:47.239 needs to be contended with. However, it doesn't necessarily mean 1264 01:19:47.319 --> 01:19:50.000 that that's what we focus on, okay, And I would 1265 01:19:50.159 --> 01:19:52.960 argue that it shouldn't need to be focused on because 1266 01:19:53.000 --> 01:19:55.399 once you teach the truth and once people know how 1267 01:19:55.439 --> 01:19:57.840 to find the truth. Well, they come to their own conclusions. 1268 01:19:57.880 --> 01:20:00.800 You don't need to force legislation on them. They'll understand 1269 01:20:00.880 --> 01:20:03.640 the immorality of something like abortion. You don't need to 1270 01:20:03.960 --> 01:20:07.720 enforce the law. Okay, what you need to do is 1271 01:20:08.079 --> 01:20:12.800 protect the method and then the understanding comes. So that's 1272 01:20:12.840 --> 01:20:15.399 what we mean by esoteric Christianity. The other side to 1273 01:20:15.560 --> 01:20:17.600 esoteric Christianity, I think is also something that needs to 1274 01:20:17.640 --> 01:20:25.800 be emphasized greatly, is that theology takes on a deeper, 1275 01:20:26.159 --> 01:20:32.800 richer context. For example, the story of Adam and Eve. 1276 01:20:33.439 --> 01:20:36.279 It's very common in mainstream Christianity to say, oh, well, 1277 01:20:36.279 --> 01:20:39.239 these were historical people. You know, they had you know, 1278 01:20:39.600 --> 01:20:44.279 the snake was the devil, and you know they disobeyed 1279 01:20:44.279 --> 01:20:47.640 God by eating that fruit and we fell and now 1280 01:20:47.880 --> 01:20:50.600 you know, we realized we were naked and we had 1281 01:20:50.640 --> 01:20:52.520 to you know, cover up and all this stuff. And 1282 01:20:52.600 --> 01:20:56.439 they take that as a literal historical story. And honestly, 1283 01:20:56.520 --> 01:20:59.840 there's nothing in Christian theology that says you have to 1284 01:21:00.880 --> 01:21:04.920 see it as anything other than face value. There's nothing 1285 01:21:04.960 --> 01:21:09.880 that says you have to However, an esoteric Christian understands 1286 01:21:09.920 --> 01:21:13.079 that there's no history here, but there's something much greater 1287 01:21:13.159 --> 01:21:15.880 than history, something much more profound, something much more real 1288 01:21:16.000 --> 01:21:20.319 than history, and that is the ineffable actions and movements 1289 01:21:20.359 --> 01:21:23.640 of God is in that story, and it is actually 1290 01:21:23.720 --> 01:21:25.960 the story of salvation at least how it begins, right, 1291 01:21:26.840 --> 01:21:29.600 And unless you understand the esoteric implications of it, you 1292 01:21:29.640 --> 01:21:32.600 won't really see that this was actually ultimately a good thing, 1293 01:21:32.600 --> 01:21:34.279 which is why the church has a whole hymn about 1294 01:21:34.279 --> 01:21:37.359 it called Oh Happy Fault, because it really was the 1295 01:21:37.439 --> 01:21:40.159 way that we were introduced to Jesus. And that's again 1296 01:21:40.279 --> 01:21:42.680 beyond the scope of tonight's show, because I'm just giving 1297 01:21:42.680 --> 01:21:44.439 you a quick survey of this, and I don't want 1298 01:21:44.439 --> 01:21:46.720 to spend all night on it. But you know, this 1299 01:21:46.840 --> 01:21:48.319 is where we get into and you hear me talk 1300 01:21:48.359 --> 01:21:51.760 about how, no, it's not Satan in the garden. The 1301 01:21:51.800 --> 01:21:54.239 snake is yet Sahara. That's our proclivity to do wrong. 1302 01:21:54.760 --> 01:21:57.079 And no, they didn't realize they were naked in the 1303 01:21:57.159 --> 01:22:02.800 way that you know people walk around at Nudus Conlin, 1304 01:22:02.840 --> 01:22:06.199 he's naked. It's not like that. It's it's more like 1305 01:22:06.359 --> 01:22:11.880 we realized the fragility of our existence and then had 1306 01:22:11.920 --> 01:22:17.800 to take on animal skins. Literally mammalian mammalian's skin in 1307 01:22:17.880 --> 01:22:21.079 the in the form of primates, in order to now 1308 01:22:21.279 --> 01:22:25.000 exist in this fallen, broken universe that now we inhabit 1309 01:22:25.199 --> 01:22:27.960 because of it something that we don't really truly understand. 1310 01:22:28.000 --> 01:22:30.680 We just know that there's something that occurred. It was disobedience, 1311 01:22:31.239 --> 01:22:33.760 and it was necessary. All of it was necessary to 1312 01:22:33.840 --> 01:22:37.439 have happened for our own growth and understanding, which is 1313

01:22:37.479 --> 01:22:39.439 all an esoteric way of looking at it. Same thing, 1314 01:22:39.439 --> 01:22:41.319 when I talk about Jesus, remember I've said, well, where 1315 01:22:41.319 --> 01:22:43.239 did the devil come from? Then if he's not, if 1316 01:22:43.279 --> 01:22:45.520 he's not in the Old Testament, and if he's not 1317 01:22:45.920 --> 01:22:47.680 the serpent in the garden of enow and then where 1318 01:22:47.760 --> 01:22:50.359 why is Jesus talking Jesus talking to him in the desert? 1319 01:22:50.960 --> 01:22:54.520 Why is he tempting him? You know, where did this 1320 01:22:54.680 --> 01:22:58.399 lucifer fallen angel guy come from? And you know, the 1321 01:22:58.520 --> 01:23:02.159 church has its answer. It's a fallen angel rebelled against God. 1322 01:23:02.199 --> 01:23:04.119 He took a bunch of angels with him. He was 1323 01:23:04.159 --> 01:23:07.199 a high ranking archangel or whatever. You know, these are 1324 01:23:07.279 --> 01:23:09.640 things that people will say. Some people say he wasn't 1325 01:23:09.640 --> 01:23:13.279 even archangels, one of the higher choirs. Yeah, they'll say 1326 01:23:13.319 --> 01:23:15.039 that kind of you know, anything that they can do 1327 01:23:15.199 --> 01:23:17.920 to try to explain it, but it's much more realistic 1328 01:23:18.239 --> 01:23:21.640 esoterically to understand what really happened. Well, again, if the 1329 01:23:21.760 --> 01:23:26.439 devil is ultimately the yet sahara, the the the proclivity 1330 01:23:26.479 --> 01:23:30.239 of humanity to do wrong, to be self interested, to 1331 01:23:30.600 --> 01:23:33.880 commit evil acts. If that's what the devil or the 1332 01:23:34.239 --> 01:23:36.399 serpent was in the garden the Beeden, and if that's 1333 01:23:36.520 --> 01:23:39.359 ultimately what the devil is all throughout the Christian Judeo 1334 01:23:39.479 --> 01:23:43.800 Christian story, then it stands the reason that if Jesus 1335 01:23:44.800 --> 01:23:48.760 incarnates human flesh and becomes like us in all things 1336 01:23:48.960 --> 01:23:51.800 but sin, that's scripture, not me. That's what Scripture says. 1337 01:23:51.920 --> 01:23:54.000 He became like us in all things but sin in 1338 01:23:54.039 --> 01:23:58.319 all ways but sin. Then where does the where does 1339 01:23:58.399 --> 01:24:01.079 the yet sahara, a part of his human nature go 1340 01:24:01.319 --> 01:24:03.840 because it can't coexist with them that would make him sinful. 1341 01:24:04.359 --> 01:24:08.399 So where's it go? Well, it becomes the devil, and 1342 01:24:08.479 --> 01:24:09.960 that's what the devil really is. And that's why you 1343 01:24:10.000 --> 01:24:13.920 don't really meet this devil until after the incarnation of Jesus, 1344 01:24:14.000 --> 01:24:16.479 because that is the part of his human nature that 1345 01:24:16.720 --> 01:24:19.359 was expelled from it. So that he could perfectly inhabit 1346 01:24:19.479 --> 01:24:23.159 human flesh. That's an esoteric telling of the theology. It 1347 01:24:23.199 --> 01:24:26.680 doesn't contradict anything that the Church really teaches, other than 1348 01:24:26.720 --> 01:24:29.039 it gives a more enlightened understanding as to what really 1349 01:24:29.159 --> 01:24:31.520 is going on, and it helps to bridge the gap 1350 01:24:31.600 --> 01:24:36.279 between some of the historical inconsistencies how the Jewish theology works. 1351 01:24:36.680 --> 01:24:38.880 And this is what makes it, I think, a superior 1352 01:24:39.159 --> 01:24:43.520 way of talking about these things. Not necessary, just superior intellectually. 1353 01:24:43.560 --> 01:24:45.600 It might not be for everyone, but you know, this 1354 01:24:45.840 --> 01:24:49.199 is a more intellectual kind of church than most, and 1355 01:24:49.359 --> 01:24:52.079 so therefore the people that find this church are looking 1356 01:24:52.239 --> 01:24:55.600 for a deeper kind of understanding. That's why we're here, 1357 01:24:56.000 --> 01:24:58.439 that's why we do this show. So you know, it's 1358 01:24:58.560 --> 01:25:01.159 just a different approach, it's a different theology. There's a 1359 01:25:01.199 --> 01:25:03.760 few different things in our canons which I'm going to 1360 01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:07.720 get to here. But esoteric Christianity properly understood is not 1361 01:25:07.840 --> 01:25:12.199 a secret doctrine. It's just Christianity understood from the inside 1362 01:25:12.560 --> 01:25:16.600 and always through direct participation in the divine life, which 1363 01:25:16.680 --> 01:25:23.439 is ultimately what orthodoxy calls theosis. Okay, you know, so 1364 01:25:23.560 --> 01:25:26.800 that's the important thing. Understand the Holy Nicolean Catholic Church 1365 01:25:27.560 --> 01:25:32.600 shares all the major foundations of Christianity with Roman Catholicism. 1366 01:25:33.119 --> 01:25:36.439 All right, we have apostolic succession that we maintain valid 1367 01:25:36.600 --> 01:25:39.479 Apostolic succession. I should say that because people always accuse 1368 01:25:39.520 --> 01:25:41.479 it of not being valid in the summer. We're going 1369 01:25:41.520 --> 01:25:45.079 to go over the Independent Sacramental movement in July next 1370 01:25:45.159 --> 01:25:47.560 month when we have our Summer special, and I'll go 1371 01:25:47.640 --> 01:25:50.279 into more detail on it then. But understand, it's valid 1372 01:25:50.279 --> 01:25:53.840 apostolic succession. We have episcopal governance. That's me all right, 1373 01:25:53.920 --> 01:25:57.439 I'm a bishop. We have Sacramental theology. We don't deviate 1374 01:25:57.520 --> 01:25:59.680 from it. Okay. So you know, while a lot of 1375 01:25:59.720 --> 01:26:02.319 Indian churches will be like, oh, you know what, let's 1376 01:26:02.319 --> 01:26:06.039 go ahead and start ordaining uh women or to the priesthood, 1377 01:26:06.079 --> 01:26:08.359 and let let's let's let's let's let's wine up. Let's 1378

01:26:08.399 --> 01:26:12.800 have lesbian uh female bishops, you know, like we see 1379 01:26:12.840 --> 01:26:15.119 sometimes not even in the Independent Sacramental movement. We see 1380 01:26:15.119 --> 01:26:19.880 that with the Anglicants. Okay, so that's a violation of 1381 01:26:20.000 --> 01:26:24.800 what Sacramental theology teaches. Now, we might from a personal 1382 01:26:24.800 --> 01:26:26.920 point of view, say, hey, you know what women can 1383 01:26:26.960 --> 01:26:27.680 do A good job of this. 1384 01:26:28.680 --> 01:26:28.960 Why not? 1385 01:26:29.680 --> 01:26:32.600 Honestly, Hey, I'd have a full church of clergy if 1386 01:26:32.640 --> 01:26:36.079 I could ordain women, because all I have are women 1387 01:26:36.199 --> 01:26:38.159 that want to be involved in the ministry. I don't 1388 01:26:38.159 --> 01:26:40.720 have any men that really want to do anything. Okay, 1389 01:26:40.840 --> 01:26:44.760 So I could actually have a full staff of clergy 1390 01:26:44.840 --> 01:26:47.560 if I could ordain women. And you know what, if 1391 01:26:47.600 --> 01:26:49.960 it was allowed, I'd do it. I don't have anything 1392 01:26:50.039 --> 01:26:55.000 against it. Intrinsically, I can't make that change because of 1393 01:26:55.159 --> 01:26:59.159 the sacramental theology as it is, that can't be changed 1394 01:26:59.199 --> 01:27:01.560 by one bishop. It would have to be changed by 1395 01:27:01.600 --> 01:27:05.399 an entire ecumenical council, and then only after they have 1396 01:27:05.600 --> 01:27:09.800 found a valid means of being able to authorize it, 1397 01:27:10.079 --> 01:27:13.800 and which is very unlikely to ever happen. So this 1398 01:27:14.039 --> 01:27:17.359 is again to show the integrity of this church. We 1399 01:27:17.479 --> 01:27:20.760 don't change sacramental theology because it's now inconvenient. We don't 1400 01:27:20.800 --> 01:27:22.479 change it because, oh, we're not under Rome, so we 1401 01:27:22.520 --> 01:27:24.920 don't have to listen to what the Pope says. No, 1402 01:27:25.279 --> 01:27:28.600 we don't change it because we can't. We're still Catholic. 1403 01:27:29.279 --> 01:27:33.039 I don't need the Pope holding me by a tight 1404 01:27:33.119 --> 01:27:37.239 leash to do the right thing. I'm a free individual 1405 01:27:37.800 --> 01:27:40.640 and I'm a responsible man of integrity. I don't need 1406 01:27:40.720 --> 01:27:44.760 the pope forcing my hand. I know what's the difference 1407 01:27:44.800 --> 01:27:46.760 between what I can do, what I can't do, what's 1408 01:27:46.840 --> 01:27:50.239 right and wrong, and so I do it okay, and 1409 01:27:50.880 --> 01:27:53.840 so no different with the Nicolaying Church. We have liturgical 1410 01:27:53.880 --> 01:27:57.600 worship with the Mass, the Nissine Creed, we recite. We 1411 01:27:57.680 --> 01:28:01.920 don't change it. All right. We have a Christ centered theology. 1412 01:28:02.640 --> 01:28:06.680 It's all about Jesus Christ. We have a contemplative prayer, 1413 01:28:07.560 --> 01:28:14.760 all right. We believe that salvation is is is necessary, 1414 01:28:15.520 --> 01:28:17.479 you know, something that we're here to accomplish. But we 1415 01:28:17.560 --> 01:28:19.680 will add to that and say it's more than just 1416 01:28:19.800 --> 01:28:22.840 a legal acquittal from our sins. We will say that 1417 01:28:22.960 --> 01:28:26.159 salvation is not so much about that. That's that's the 1418 01:28:26.920 --> 01:28:30.399 most insignificant part of what salvation is. What salvation is 1419 01:28:30.520 --> 01:28:34.760 is returning to God. That's the important part of it. Okay, 1420 01:28:36.239 --> 01:28:39.319 we're losing you. You're, we're losing you, Jamie, You're you're, you're, 1421 01:28:39.319 --> 01:28:44.439 you're hiding behind the faces. Sorry, we've we've got a 1422 01:28:44.479 --> 01:28:46.520 tighter shot. And she's used to being a little bit 1423 01:28:46.560 --> 01:28:48.640 over there, so she's gonna come a little bit closer 1424 01:28:49.520 --> 01:28:51.239 on top of Yeah, no, you're fine, You're not. You're 1425 01:28:51.239 --> 01:28:53.760 not going to crowd me. You're good, You're good, You're good. 1426 01:28:54.319 --> 01:28:56.199 I just think this is a better shot, don't you think. 1427 01:28:56.680 --> 01:28:57.520 I mean, I think it's a better. 1428 01:28:59.159 --> 01:28:59.359 Yeah. 1429 01:28:59.800 --> 01:29:01.800 Uh, I felt we were too far away. We're looking 1430 01:29:01.840 --> 01:29:03.680 all over the place. Now I can look more at 1431 01:29:03.760 --> 01:29:05.960 you and talk to you instead of, you know, talking 1432 01:29:06.279 --> 01:29:10.520 to someone down there. We also believe that grace is 1433 01:29:10.560 --> 01:29:14.359 what transforms a person that's strictly Catholic. I mean, well, 1434 01:29:14.560 --> 01:29:17.039 not strictly Catholic. It is, it is truly Catholic. Okay, 1435 01:29:18.079 --> 01:29:20.119 I'm not going to get into all the sacramental theology 1436 01:29:20.199 --> 01:29:22.399 I could. We'd be here for hours if I did. 1437 01:29:22.560 --> 01:29:26.079 But you know, we have a strong reverence for the Eucharis. 1438 01:29:26.239 --> 01:29:28.640 We understand it to be the body and blood, soul 1439 01:29:28.680 --> 01:29:31.520 and divinity of Jesus Christ. We use the rights of 1440 01:29:31.560 --> 01:29:34.880 the Church of Rome in our liturgy because we understand 1441 01:29:34.920 --> 01:29:37.359 them to be valid and validity matters to us. So 1442 01:29:37.600 --> 01:29:39.760 we're not going to like create our own mass because 1443 01:29:40.039 --> 01:29:42.760 you know why we can not. We're not We're not 1444 01:29:42.920 --> 01:29:45.199 under anybody's authority. We can do whatever we want. No, 1445 01:29:45.319 --> 01:29:49.840 we can't. We try to maintain integrity. It's a Catholic 1446 01:29:49.960 --> 01:29:52.039 church regardless of whether or not the Church of Rome

1447 01:29:52.560 --> 01:29:56.960 sees us as as an important part of the system 1448 01:29:57.000 --> 01:29:59.399 of Catholicism. But you know, we're not going to make 1449 01:29:59.520 --> 01:30:02.960 changes because we could. You know, no one's going to 1450 01:30:03.000 --> 01:30:08.359 stop us. You know, we don't see that as useful. 1451 01:30:10.000 --> 01:30:13.359 You know, I talked about the Apostolic community. You know, 1452 01:30:13.600 --> 01:30:18.000 our christology is again completely the same as the Church 1453 01:30:18.079 --> 01:30:21.439 of Rome. There's really no differences there. But there are 1454 01:30:21.600 --> 01:30:23.880 some differences. And this is where we get into what 1455 01:30:24.000 --> 01:30:26.640 I mean by a non dogmatic theology. Now you've heard 1456 01:30:26.680 --> 01:30:30.000 Father Chris and I sometimes talk about this a little 1457 01:30:30.039 --> 01:30:35.560 bit where the definition of how he uses dogmatism is 1458 01:30:35.560 --> 01:30:37.239 a little bit different than the one that I use, 1459 01:30:37.920 --> 01:30:40.439 and I think he's using the more correct understanding of 1460 01:30:40.520 --> 01:30:43.479 the term. I'm using a more vernacular understanding of the 1461 01:30:43.560 --> 01:30:46.119 term because people understand when I say we're a non 1462 01:30:46.239 --> 01:30:49.920 dogmatic church, which means that we're not legalistic. We're not 1463 01:30:50.000 --> 01:30:54.239 going around enforcing the law, you know, declaring sinners and 1464 01:30:54.680 --> 01:30:56.960 saying you're going to Hell until your repent kind of church. 1465 01:30:57.000 --> 01:31:00.560 We're not that kind of church. We we believe in 1466 01:31:00.600 --> 01:31:04.560 personal responsibility, and so therefore we don't feel we need 1467 01:31:04.640 --> 01:31:09.840 to dogmatically rule on things with the exception of sacramental theology, 1468 01:31:09.920 --> 01:31:15.520 and only because to not do that means risking invalidity, 1469 01:31:16.159 --> 01:31:20.239 and I'm not willing to risk an invalid sacrament just 1470 01:31:20.399 --> 01:31:26.000 because I want to put non dogmatic principles above that. 1471 01:31:26.159 --> 01:31:29.239 I can't do that, okay. So are there are limits 1472 01:31:29.279 --> 01:31:32.119 even here in this church where I won't cross certain lines. 1473 01:31:32.159 --> 01:31:34.840 But where I can cross lines is on more of 1474 01:31:34.880 --> 01:31:37.760 the interpretations of certain things, and that's where there are 1475 01:31:38.119 --> 01:31:42.079 some differences. We don't believe doctrine is meaningless. We think 1476 01:31:42.119 --> 01:31:47.800 doctrine is essential, and we are a doctrine focused church. However, 1477 01:31:48.039 --> 01:31:52.560 we don't believe in treating this legalistically. Okay. So that's 1478 01:31:52.560 --> 01:31:55.680 what I mean by non dogmatic. We're not legalistic about it, 1479 01:31:56.039 --> 01:32:00.439 and we're not looking to you know, declare penaltes and 1480 01:32:00.880 --> 01:32:05.640 and and put you in in fear of hell just 1481 01:32:05.760 --> 01:32:07.920 because you know you maybe not doing things the way 1482 01:32:08.279 --> 01:32:16.119 we want you to do them, Okay. Roman Catholicism puts 1483 01:32:16.159 --> 01:32:21.359 a greater emphasis on doctrinal certainty. We put our emphasis 1484 01:32:21.439 --> 01:32:26.680 on experiential participation both churches have both. Okay, we have 1485 01:32:26.960 --> 01:32:30.359 doctrinal certainty. Again, Stacramental theology proves it. Okay, we believe 1486 01:32:30.399 --> 01:32:32.800 that we are certain. The Eucharist is the body and blood, 1487 01:32:32.800 --> 01:32:37.920 soul and the divinity of Jesus Christ. And Roman Catholicism, 1488 01:32:39.319 --> 01:32:42.960 you know, has an experiential participation. They understand the relationship 1489 01:32:43.039 --> 01:32:46.119 to God and the need. In fact, receiving the Eucharus 1490 01:32:46.199 --> 01:32:50.319 is about that participation in the divine life. It's just 1491 01:32:50.439 --> 01:32:54.920 that while they will focus more on things like papal 1492 01:32:54.960 --> 01:32:59.079 infallibility and you know, the doctrine, the dogma of the 1493 01:32:59.239 --> 01:33:03.000 assumption of the very Jamrii, and you know, transubstantiation, all 1494 01:33:03.039 --> 01:33:05.840 these things, we take more of an Eastern Orthodox approach 1495 01:33:05.920 --> 01:33:08.560 to these things and just say they're mysteries. It doesn't 1496 01:33:08.600 --> 01:33:10.439 really matter how it happens. We just know it does. 1497 01:33:11.039 --> 01:33:13.319 And what really matters here is that you receive it 1498 01:33:13.439 --> 01:33:17.319 and that changes you and you come to learn more 1499 01:33:17.359 --> 01:33:20.479 about God in these moments, things that people that don't 1500 01:33:20.560 --> 01:33:22.760 have God in their life couldn't even begin to understand, 1501 01:33:23.439 --> 01:33:25.439 all right, and it builds over time. It's not something 1502 01:33:25.479 --> 01:33:26.960 you can just take the Eucharus and all of a 1503 01:33:27.000 --> 01:33:29.760 sudden things, just like your eyes are open. I mean, 1504 01:33:29.800 --> 01:33:31.439 it could happen, but I'm not going to count on that. 1505 01:33:32.119 --> 01:33:37.119 It's a relationship. It grows with you. And this takes 1506 01:33:37.199 --> 01:33:39.199 us to some of the things that are different. So 1507 01:33:39.439 --> 01:33:40.800 you know what I'm going to do. I have a 1508 01:33:40.880 --> 01:33:43.199 list here, but I'm going to go actually to Esoteric 1509 01:33:43.239 --> 01:33:44.880 Catholic dot org and I'm going to talk about some 1510 01:33:45.000 --> 01:33:48.680 of these differences in real time. If you want to 1511 01:33:48.840 --> 01:33:51.399 follow along with me, you can go to Esoteric Catholic 1512 01:33:51.439 --> 01:33:56.079 dot org

forward slash faq and we're going to skip 1513 01:33:56.239 --> 01:33:59.840 the questions and go down to where it says our cannons. 1514 01:34:00.600 --> 01:34:02.880 And then the first one that we have here, well, 1515 01:34:02.920 --> 01:34:05.880 first i'll read the things that we are different. So 1516 01:34:05.960 --> 01:34:08.640 there's three points here. We are different because we are 1517 01:34:08.720 --> 01:34:12.640 a non dogmatic apostolical liturgical system, which I've already covered. Two. 1518 01:34:13.239 --> 01:34:15.840 This is important, but it's going to sound maybe a 1519 01:34:15.880 --> 01:34:18.319 little heretical at first, and it's not. I'll explain why 1520 01:34:18.760 --> 01:34:23.079 we posit that salvation is achieved by faith for works 1521 01:34:23.640 --> 01:34:28.880 and through epignosis. I'm gonna explain what that means shortly. 1522 01:34:29.560 --> 01:34:34.680 And then third, we respect all religions, all traditions, all creeds, 1523 01:34:35.239 --> 01:34:38.159 even though we protect and defend our own traditions boundaries. 1524 01:34:38.760 --> 01:34:40.760 So it's not like we're going to go around and say, oh, well, 1525 01:34:40.800 --> 01:34:43.680 we're invalidating this religion because they don't believe like us, 1526 01:34:43.800 --> 01:34:47.560 or we're going to invalidate Vajryana Buddhism because they don't 1527 01:34:47.560 --> 01:34:51.199 have Jesus in it. No, we respect that as a tradition, 1528 01:34:51.359 --> 01:34:54.439 we respect that as a religion. We respect what they believe, 1529 01:34:55.039 --> 01:34:59.640 but we also protect what we teach. Okay, and they 1530 01:34:59.680 --> 01:35:02.920 don't have to be in conflict at all, and they're not. 1531 01:35:03.920 --> 01:35:05.640 So let's look at some of the things that are different. 1532 01:35:05.680 --> 01:35:07.279 So the first point if you scroll down if you're 1533 01:35:07.319 --> 01:35:12.039 following along, is open adult baptism. Okay. What this means 1534 01:35:12.199 --> 01:35:15.199 is in the Church of Rome, if you are a convert, 1535 01:35:15.319 --> 01:35:19.000 never been baptized, and you want to become a Roman Catholic. Okay, 1536 01:35:19.079 --> 01:35:21.920 what that means is you're going to be asked to 1537 01:35:22.039 --> 01:35:26.720 go through cad cases and it's probably going to be 1538 01:35:26.760 --> 01:35:29.520 about a year and you're going to be taught everything 1539 01:35:29.720 --> 01:35:32.399 that you need to know about the Catholic faith. And 1540 01:35:32.520 --> 01:35:36.279 then on the Easter vigil, well, there'll be some rituals 1541 01:35:36.319 --> 01:35:38.359 in between, like the right of election and different things 1542 01:35:38.399 --> 01:35:40.640 that go on throughout Lent. But when you get to 1543 01:35:40.720 --> 01:35:46.800 the Easter vigil, you will then receive baptism usually also 1544 01:35:47.079 --> 01:35:52.000 confirmation in your first Eucharus. All that same

time, we 1545 01:35:53.319 --> 01:35:57.840 don't do that in this church unless it's justifiable. Now, 1546 01:35:58.159 --> 01:35:59.720 I'm not going to say we don't do it. In fact, 1547 01:35:59.720 --> 01:36:02.239 that is the preferred normal way, that's the ordinary way. 1548 01:36:02.720 --> 01:36:04.840 But if we have a person that comes to us 1549 01:36:05.439 --> 01:36:09.239 deeply in need of Christ and says, you know, I 1550 01:36:09.720 --> 01:36:15.039 need him, I'm willing, I'm ready to take him as 1551 01:36:15.159 --> 01:36:19.239 my Lord, God and Savior. I'm not going to be like, well, okay, 1552 01:36:19.319 --> 01:36:21.960 well let we'll put you into to the classes and 1553 01:36:22.079 --> 01:36:24.640 then you know, and then in a year we'll take 1554 01:36:24.640 --> 01:36:26.039 care of it. You know, I'm not going to do 1555 01:36:26.119 --> 01:36:29.479 that to the person. Strike while yeah, strike while the 1556 01:36:29.520 --> 01:36:32.039 iron is hot, and give them the opportunity to because 1557 01:36:32.079 --> 01:36:34.079 they're thirsting for God. And I can tell you right now, 1558 01:36:34.600 --> 01:36:37.479 Saint Paul, he did that. That's the way he did it. 1559 01:36:37.520 --> 01:36:39.159 He didn't tell him I'll get going to wait, no, 1560 01:36:39.319 --> 01:36:41.600 he he he did it on the spot, find a 1561 01:36:41.640 --> 01:36:44.359 puddle on the ground and just do it, all right, 1562 01:36:44.439 --> 01:36:46.439 And so that's what we do. When there is somebody 1563 01:36:46.600 --> 01:36:49.520 like that, we will do what we call the extraordinary 1564 01:36:49.640 --> 01:36:54.600 form of baptism, and that is when they're ready, they're ready, okay, 1565 01:36:54.680 --> 01:36:58.039 and we baptize them on the spot right there, and 1566 01:36:58.439 --> 01:37:01.800 and and and take care of it. And then we 1567 01:37:02.000 --> 01:37:06.840 put them into class to go through catechises to receive confirmation. 1568 01:37:08.079 --> 01:37:11.199 And I should also note that I will also if 1569 01:37:11.239 --> 01:37:13.720 I believe that they are ready to understand the nature 1570 01:37:13.720 --> 01:37:15.479 of the Eucharist as the body and blood soul into 1571 01:37:15.520 --> 01:37:18.760 any of Jesus Christ, well, then assuming they've come to 1572 01:37:18.840 --> 01:37:22.600 that understanding, they can receive their first communion with their baptism. 1573 01:37:22.720 --> 01:37:25.800 But confirmation we say for education, you need to have 1574 01:37:25.880 --> 01:37:28.880 cadchises for that one. But confirmation is also not an 1575 01:37:28.960 --> 01:37:34.479 essential sacrament for salvation. It's not necessary, whereas I would 1576 01:37:34.520 --> 01:37:37.680 say that baptism absolutely is, and Eucharist pretty much is. 1577 01:37:38.119 --> 01:37:42.840 Confirmation is just a great help. Okay. So we do 1578 01:37:43.000 --> 01:37:46.760 open adult baptisms because the Church does open a child baptism, 1579 01:37:46.840 --> 01:37:51.159 no problem, all right. But you know, if your baby born, 1580 01:37:52.000 --> 01:37:54.359 you know they want you baptize almost right away. But 1581 01:37:54.880 --> 01:37:57.119 adults they put you through the whole nine yards. I'm 1582 01:37:57.119 --> 01:37:58.600 not going to say that one way is better than 1583 01:37:58.640 --> 01:38:01.520 the other. I think there's advantag both. But I cannot 1584 01:38:01.640 --> 01:38:06.319 deny someone God if they're if they're ready, and and 1585 01:38:06.520 --> 01:38:11.239 the way our church works, I can't miss or risk 1586 01:38:11.520 --> 01:38:14.159 losing the opportunity for that person to meet Christ in 1587 01:38:14.239 --> 01:38:16.640 that moment. So we have to operate a little differently, 1588 01:38:16.760 --> 01:38:18.760 and there's nothing invalid about doing it. It's just different 1589 01:38:20.720 --> 01:38:23.560 extrachrononical scriptures. Where does that stand? Some people ask me 1590 01:38:23.560 --> 01:38:27.159 about this. We read them, Uh, we enjoy them, we 1591 01:38:27.399 --> 01:38:30.359 teach about them, but we do not see them as authoritative, 1592 01:38:30.399 --> 01:38:32.960 and we do not use them as part of our electionary. 1593 01:38:33.000 --> 01:38:35.159 We use the same lectionary that the Church of Rome uses, 1594 01:38:35.680 --> 01:38:38.960 so it's the same readings across the entire Catholic world, 1595 01:38:39.359 --> 01:38:42.840 but we do not you know, the Nagamadi, you know 1596 01:38:43.359 --> 01:38:46.439 any dudeo, you know the Judo Can and all these 1597 01:38:46.479 --> 01:38:52.159 other things that that the pseudopigrapha. We we don't get 1598 01:38:52.239 --> 01:38:55.439 into all those other books as authoritative. We just read 1599 01:38:55.479 --> 01:39:01.760 them as expanding our philosophical understanding homosexuality as a complicated 1600 01:39:01.880 --> 01:39:04.479 one in this church. Because I'm going to read exactly 1601 01:39:04.520 --> 01:39:07.880 what it says, so I don't miss anything. Our position 1602 01:39:08.119 --> 01:39:09.920 is that the Holy nicol and Catholic Church must not 1603 01:39:10.039 --> 01:39:14.000 stand in judgment against such individuals who define themselves as homosexuals. 1604 01:39:14.720 --> 01:39:17.319 While we do not dismiss what the Roman Catholic Church 1605 01:39:17.359 --> 01:39:20.079 has stated, we likewise do not affirm it as our 1606 01:39:20.119 --> 01:39:23.159 own teaching in a sense, because we can find ourselves 1607 01:39:23.239 --> 01:39:28.119 in agreement that its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. That's 1608 01:39:28.159 --> 01:39:31.760 the Church of Rome's direct quote. We choose not to 1609 01:39:31.880 --> 01:39:35.439 define it in general terms. However, homosexuality does present some 1610 01:39:35.560 --> 01:39:39.520 sacramental and ministerial challenges, which we shall deal with below, 1611

01:39:39.600 --> 01:39:41.159 and so I'm going to get into a few of those. 1612 01:39:41.199 --> 01:39:44.840 So ordination and homosexuality, that's one we don't have any 1613 01:39:45.720 --> 01:39:49.479 We don't find any substantial reason why the sacrament of 1614 01:39:49.520 --> 01:39:51.960 Holy Orders needs to be refused to someone who's a homosexual. 1615 01:39:52.239 --> 01:39:55.319 We don't feel that that's a problem provided that they 1616 01:39:55.399 --> 01:39:58.640 live a life of celibacy and chastity. If they're living 1617 01:39:58.640 --> 01:40:01.800 a life of celibacy and chastity, then the sacrament of 1618 01:40:01.840 --> 01:40:05.199 Holy Orders is open to them. And that's only not 1619 01:40:05.319 --> 01:40:09.079 because we think that homosexuality is necessarily this horrific act 1620 01:40:09.199 --> 01:40:13.439 of perversion. We don't make a statement on it one 1621 01:40:13.439 --> 01:40:15.720 way or the other because we just don't understand it, 1622 01:40:15.880 --> 01:40:18.079 just like the church room says, we just don't really know. 1623 01:40:18.640 --> 01:40:21.880 It's psychological genesis. We kind of stay with that one. 1624 01:40:22.760 --> 01:40:25.800 And so rather than say, well, it's wrong, it's it's repulsive, 1625 01:40:25.840 --> 01:40:28.399 it so this or it's that, we simply say that, well, 1626 01:40:28.479 --> 01:40:31.640 fornication we do know about, and I can't and I'm 1627 01:40:31.640 --> 01:40:33.800 going to get into sacramental marriage in a minute, I 1628 01:40:33.920 --> 01:40:37.920 can't confer matrimony on a homosexual couple. That means that 1629 01:40:38.039 --> 01:40:40.880 any sexual activity they have together is going to be fornication. 1630 01:40:42.159 --> 01:40:46.000 So I can't have a fornicating priest. So that would 1631 01:40:46.000 --> 01:40:47.600 be a problem, that would be a conflict. But it's 1632 01:40:47.640 --> 01:40:50.560 assuming they have made a promise and there is no 1633 01:40:50.680 --> 01:40:55.159 promise of chastity. Oh sorry, there is no promise of celibacy. Rather, 1634 01:40:55.319 --> 01:40:59.279 in the nicolay in church, with a clergy, you can 1635 01:40:59.359 --> 01:41:02.039 have married praise, you can have married bishops. I'm one right, 1636 01:41:02.079 --> 01:41:06.359 I'm a married bishop. But we can't have a fornicating 1637 01:41:06.840 --> 01:41:09.319 of a clergy person that way. That would go against 1638 01:41:09.359 --> 01:41:17.560 the sacramental theology. Again, as far as matrimony goes. I've 1639 01:41:17.760 --> 01:41:19.319 talked about this so much. I don't think I need 1640 01:41:19.359 --> 01:41:23.079 to get into it tonight. Suffice it to say, matrimony 1641 01:41:23.159 --> 01:41:27.479 is about reproduction. If there's no reproduction, you can't really 1642 01:41:27.600 --> 01:41:34.600 have matrimony. So that precludes that we cannot confer, okay, 1643 01:41:34.760 --> 01:41:39.520 cannot confer the sacrament

of matrimony on a homosexual couple 1644 01:41:39.600 --> 01:41:42.920 because of this. It's unfortunate. I know people are upset 1645 01:41:42.960 --> 01:41:45.039 about that, but there's nothing we can do about. Sacramental 1646 01:41:45.079 --> 01:41:47.640 theology cannot be changed on this. It is what it is, 1647 01:41:48.079 --> 01:41:49.520 all right. You just have to learn to live with it. 1648 01:41:49.560 --> 01:41:52.479 There's a lot of things about the church that even 1649 01:41:52.520 --> 01:41:55.680 I don't like, but I just learned to live with it, okay. 1650 01:41:55.720 --> 01:41:57.600 And this is one of those times. Sometimes there's things 1651 01:41:57.640 --> 01:42:00.640 that just go against what you personally he can accept. 1652 01:42:01.279 --> 01:42:04.840 I'm going to get into one of those shortly. The 1653 01:42:05.039 --> 01:42:06.880 Roman Catholic Church has a close communion. We have an 1654 01:42:06.920 --> 01:42:12.560 open communion, okay, which means is if you're baptized Christian, 1655 01:42:13.000 --> 01:42:18.760 you know legitimately baptized, and you understand that Catholics believe 1656 01:42:18.840 --> 01:42:21.359 and understand the eucharst to be the body and blood 1657 01:42:21.399 --> 01:42:23.560 soul in divinity of Jesus Christ, then you are welcome 1658 01:42:23.600 --> 01:42:28.079 to receive our communion, regardless of your denomination and regardless 1659 01:42:28.159 --> 01:42:29.840 of whether or not you choose to convert and consider 1660 01:42:29.840 --> 01:42:30.520 yourself Catholic. 1661 01:42:31.560 --> 01:42:32.159 We are. 1662 01:42:32.479 --> 01:42:35.840 We feel that Christ wouldn't have denied himself to anybody. 1663 01:42:36.399 --> 01:42:37.960 I'm not going to be the one that says, no, 1664 01:42:38.039 --> 01:42:41.359 you can't have them. That's just not my right. You know, 1665 01:42:41.600 --> 01:42:45.319 Jesus gave himself to prostitutes, tax collectors, everything else. Okay, 1666 01:42:46.039 --> 01:42:50.359 he died for everyone's sins, not just the Catholics, and 1667 01:42:50.439 --> 01:42:53.880 not just people that can understand about what these sacraments 1668 01:42:53.960 --> 01:42:57.760 mean completely. I give them a blue brief catechisis about it, 1669 01:42:57.840 --> 01:42:59.680 so they kind of understand. But I just let the 1670 01:42:59.720 --> 01:43:02.560 relationship grow with Jesus. Some people don't like that about 1671 01:43:02.600 --> 01:43:06.840 this church, too bad. That's what we do here. We've 1672 01:43:06.880 --> 01:43:08.840 talked so much about abortion. I'm not going to get 1673 01:43:08.840 --> 01:43:11.319 into that one again. Just to suffice it to say 1674 01:43:11.840 --> 01:43:16.479 where we are anti abortion. We take a general pro 1675 01:43:16.640 --> 01:43:21.039 life stance on what we'd like to see happen in 1676 01:43:21.119 --> 01:43:23.479 the world, but we don't get political about it, and 1677 01:43:23.600 --> 01:43:27.840 we don't try to change legislation. Okay. And if a 1678 01:43:27.880 --> 01:43:31.239 woman were to have an abortion and come to this church, 1679 01:43:32.239 --> 01:43:35.760 we wouldn't excommunicate her or even declare her excommunicated. We 1680 01:43:35.760 --> 01:43:40.279 would put her through you know, a pastoral care where 1681 01:43:40.479 --> 01:43:43.439 you know she would get whatever she would need. But 1682 01:43:43.560 --> 01:43:45.239 this is where she needs the church the most. The 1683 01:43:45.319 --> 01:43:47.880 last thing we need to do is kick her out. Okay. 1684 01:43:48.359 --> 01:43:52.000 So that's our stance. We don't believe in, we don't accept, 1685 01:43:52.119 --> 01:43:56.159 and we do not endorse the automatic excommunication that the 1686 01:43:56.239 --> 01:44:00.840 Church of Rome puts towards abortion. We other pastor them 1687 01:44:00.920 --> 01:44:04.359 than than than exclude them. This is going to be 1688 01:44:04.399 --> 01:44:06.239 a tough one for some of you, but I need 1689 01:44:06.319 --> 01:44:08.720 to talk about it because this is one that created 1690 01:44:08.720 --> 01:44:10.800 a lot of controversy in this church at the time 1691 01:44:10.880 --> 01:44:15.039 that it was being established as a tradition. And and 1692 01:44:15.520 --> 01:44:17.880 that is the issue of right to die in euthanasia. 1693 01:44:18.840 --> 01:44:22.880 So euthanasia. There's a difference between right to die in euthanasia, Okay. 1694 01:44:23.079 --> 01:44:29.920 Euthanasia is generally a doctor euthanizing someone for a multitude 1695 01:44:29.960 --> 01:44:33.399 of various reasons, where right to die is that a 1696 01:44:33.520 --> 01:44:39.159 person who is terminally ill can elect to uh end 1697 01:44:39.279 --> 01:44:45.239 their suffering by having a medically assisted I guess you 1698 01:44:45.279 --> 01:44:48.239 could call it suicidal, though I think that's a very 1699 01:44:48.359 --> 01:44:54.479 provocative term. That's not necessary. Here, a medically assisted you know, 1700 01:44:54.560 --> 01:44:56.520 you pull, you pull, you push the button, you get 1701 01:44:56.560 --> 01:44:59.319 injected with the chemicals. The doctor doesn't do anything except 1702 01:44:59.399 --> 01:45:04.600 make it safe for you. That's right to die this church. Now, Now, 1703 01:45:04.720 --> 01:45:07.720 of course, the Church of Rome states in the Catechism 1704 01:45:07.760 --> 01:45:11.199 intentional euth in asia, whatever its forms or motives, is murder. 1705 01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:14.960 They just flat out call it murder. So it's gravely 1706 01:45:15.039 --> 01:45:17.680 contrary to the dignity of the human person and to 1707 01:45:17.760 --> 01:45:20.319 the respect due to the living God, his creator. Okay, 1708 01:45:21.239 --> 01:45:24.319 and rightfully so if you consider it murder, that would 1709 01:45:24.359 --> 01:45:28.239 be true. And we do consider euthanasia to be murder. 1710

01:45:29.000 --> 01:45:32.159 We do not, however, have a ruling on right to die, 1711 01:45:34.159 --> 01:45:37.560 with the exception of that you cannot be like, you know, 1712 01:45:37.680 --> 01:45:40.000 you're depressed and you just want to end it all. No, 1713 01:45:40.840 --> 01:45:44.479 if a person is declared by a medical professional to 1714 01:45:44.560 --> 01:45:50.319 be terminally ill, and in the course of their process, 1715 01:45:50.399 --> 01:45:54.640 if whatever they elect treatment or whatever, find that they 1716 01:45:54.720 --> 01:45:58.720 cannot take the pain and suffering of their illness anymore 1717 01:45:59.520 --> 01:46:04.800 and want it to be expeditiously ended, the inevitable conclusion anyway, 1718 01:46:05.640 --> 01:46:09.039 then if a person were to choose, assuming it's legal 1719 01:46:09.720 --> 01:46:14.760 and available, a right to die option, we are not 1720 01:46:14.920 --> 01:46:17.720 going to say you committed suicide, You're going to hell. Now, 1721 01:46:17.840 --> 01:46:20.319 that's not what this church is here to do. We're 1722 01:46:20.399 --> 01:46:24.079 going to be there for them and and and and 1723 01:46:24.239 --> 01:46:29.319 and and and give them prayers and no judgment. And 1724 01:46:29.600 --> 01:46:31.760 I know that can be hard on some people. But again, 1725 01:46:32.199 --> 01:46:34.640 the benefits of an esoteric church is that we see 1726 01:46:34.680 --> 01:46:37.960 the internal relationship, and we understand that everyone's going to 1727 01:46:38.000 --> 01:46:40.560 have a different relationship to death. And we know from 1728 01:46:40.600 --> 01:46:42.920 scripture that God is the God of the living as 1729 01:46:42.960 --> 01:46:45.159 well as the dead, all right, So whether we're dealing 1730 01:46:45.199 --> 01:46:47.720 with life or death, God is present, God is there, 1731 01:46:47.960 --> 01:46:51.159 God knows what to do. And yeah, there might be, 1732 01:46:51.279 --> 01:46:54.560 as Father Chris has said, some virtue and suffering, but 1733 01:46:55.039 --> 01:46:59.520 I can tell you from my own experience, just having 1734 01:46:59.680 --> 01:47:05.560 some very trivial things like versidas can inflict pain upon 1735 01:47:05.640 --> 01:47:09.640 the body that is beyond comprehension that I can understand 1736 01:47:09.720 --> 01:47:11.960 that if you are going through six or seven months 1737 01:47:12.000 --> 01:47:14.960 of this, you know, a gun to your head might 1738 01:47:15.039 --> 01:47:18.840 start looking pretty good. And I would rather see somebody 1739 01:47:19.319 --> 01:47:24.079 take a medically safe path towards that inevitable conclusion, assuming 1740 01:47:24.119 --> 01:47:26.920 they are terminally ill and not you know, just trying 1741 01:47:26.960 --> 01:47:29.079 to get out of it, get out of life because 1742 01:47:29.079 --> 01:47:32.079 they're not happy, but you know, truly terminally ill anyway, 1743 01:47:32.119 --> 01:47:34.760 going to die anyway. I would rather them do a 1744 01:47:34.920 --> 01:47:40.039 safe method that's going to reach the inevitable then for 1745 01:47:40.159 --> 01:47:42.800 them to blow their heads off and leave it to 1746 01:47:42.920 --> 01:47:45.159 their family to have to deal with the mess. Okay. 1747 01:47:46.239 --> 01:47:50.520 I think that's the more morally responsible option in my opinion. 1748 01:47:50.800 --> 01:47:53.039 So if a person is at that critical point where 1749 01:47:53.039 --> 01:47:55.399 they just can't take it anymore, I don't think it's 1750 01:47:55.800 --> 01:47:57.920 for the church to say, no, you can't do that. 1751 01:47:58.039 --> 01:48:03.680 That's suicide, that's murder, that's whatever. This church disagrees. But 1752 01:48:03.800 --> 01:48:05.560 we're not going to say that if you do hold 1753 01:48:05.760 --> 01:48:08.600 that that's murdered, that that's wrong either. We give you 1754 01:48:08.880 --> 01:48:12.239 the power to decide for yourself what's right for you 1755 01:48:12.399 --> 01:48:14.960 in your life. This is my libertarian side, I guess 1756 01:48:15.039 --> 01:48:17.560 coming through. But I fought hard for this one and 1757 01:48:17.960 --> 01:48:19.720 everyone else in the church was against it. I was 1758 01:48:19.760 --> 01:48:23.840 the only one that said no, youth in Asia, yeah, 1759 01:48:23.880 --> 01:48:26.800 throw that one out. But right to die, we need 1760 01:48:26.920 --> 01:48:32.119 to preserve the dignity of a person. And if Grandma can't, 1761 01:48:32.680 --> 01:48:35.000 isn't being treated with the same respect that you know, 1762 01:48:35.239 --> 01:48:39.479 Fluffy was. I think that there's something wrong there. And 1763 01:48:39.640 --> 01:48:41.439 it's like if you keep a dog or a cat 1764 01:48:41.520 --> 01:48:46.039 alive longer, then you know, oh it's cruel. But my god, Grandma, 1765 01:48:46.119 --> 01:48:47.399 she's gonna have to stick it out to the very 1766 01:48:47.439 --> 01:48:50.880 freaking end. And maybe she can. Maybe Grandma can't. And 1767 01:48:50.960 --> 01:48:55.279 if she can't, great do it. If you can't, then 1768 01:48:55.800 --> 01:48:59.079 I would rather you make the best choice for you 1769 01:48:59.159 --> 01:49:01.600 without the having to go into that with oh I'm 1770 01:49:01.640 --> 01:49:04.000 going to hell now. I just don't see the value 1771 01:49:04.079 --> 01:49:07.079 in that. Okay. So this church doesn't put a judgment 1772 01:49:07.199 --> 01:49:09.199 on that one, all right, And that's the non judgmental, 1773 01:49:09.239 --> 01:49:11.840 non dogmatic aspect of the church. Again, one of the 1774 01:49:11.880 --> 01:49:17.520 benefits of esoteric Christianity. Okay. Birth control was another one. 1775 01:49:18.479 --> 01:49:20.479 Where do we stand on birth control? Well, the Church, 1776 01:49:20.560 --> 01:49:22.520 as you know, the Church of Rome, is against it, 1777 01:49:23.159 --> 01:49:30.560 all right. We feel

though that that the person's personal 1778 01:49:30.640 --> 01:49:33.800 responsibility is paramount, particularly when it comes to their sexual activity, 1779 01:49:33.840 --> 01:49:35.840 which we as the church don't want anything to do with. 1780 01:49:36.319 --> 01:49:38.199 I don't want to be in your bedroom all right. 1781 01:49:38.319 --> 01:49:41.000 I am not your father confessor looking over every single 1782 01:49:41.079 --> 01:49:43.119 sexual actor you do and say, oh, that's not okay, 1783 01:49:43.720 --> 01:49:46.000 that's okay, but you can't do this one now. I'm 1784 01:49:46.039 --> 01:49:47.640 not gonna do that. Okay. If you want to do 1785 01:49:47.800 --> 01:49:49.840 some crazy stuff in that bedroom, that's up to you. 1786 01:49:50.359 --> 01:49:52.039 I'm not gonna say it's wrong. I'm not gonna say 1787 01:49:52.079 --> 01:49:55.079 it's right. All right. That's between you and your lover 1788 01:49:55.199 --> 01:49:57.199 and maybe God. I mean, you know, I'm not sure 1789 01:49:57.279 --> 01:49:59.880 even he cares, all right. But the point is, I'm 1790 01:50:00.119 --> 01:50:02.640 not going to use the church as a tool towards 1791 01:50:03.840 --> 01:50:06.520 getting involved in decisions you make in this regard. And 1792 01:50:06.600 --> 01:50:11.039 there are sometimes financial reasons or other reasons why a 1793 01:50:11.199 --> 01:50:15.560 person might not advantageously be able to get pregnant at 1794 01:50:15.600 --> 01:50:17.720 that particular time. As long as you're open to it 1795 01:50:17.760 --> 01:50:20.439 through the course of your marriage, then I think it's fine. 1796 01:50:20.760 --> 01:50:22.920 If you're using abortion, I mean, I'm sorry, birth control 1797 01:50:23.000 --> 01:50:25.920 throat your entire magic, that's problematic. But if you're if 1798 01:50:25.920 --> 01:50:28.439 you're saying not right now, but later, that's I don't 1799 01:50:28.479 --> 01:50:30.159 see anything wrong with that. I know a lot of 1800 01:50:30.279 --> 01:50:33.159 Roman Catholic priests that teach the same thing privately. I 1801 01:50:33.159 --> 01:50:35.279 don't do it publicly so much. But they do agree 1802 01:50:35.319 --> 01:50:39.359 with me on this one. So I don't endorse or 1803 01:50:39.479 --> 01:50:42.880 condemn the use of contraceptions. I just say personal responsibility. 1804 01:50:42.880 --> 01:50:43.840 And I think it's a hell of a lot better 1805 01:50:43.880 --> 01:50:48.359 than abortion, all right. Masturbation is another one. Nothing is 1806 01:50:48.520 --> 01:50:52.079 worse than when you get a you know, young, you know, teenager, 1807 01:50:52.640 --> 01:50:55.720 you know, maybe twelve or thirteen, coming into your confessional 1808 01:50:56.000 --> 01:51:01.880 and tears rolling and saying, you know, I've I've masturbated 1809 01:51:02.079 --> 01:51:05.119 or whatever. And I mean, I've heard this so much 1810 01:51:05.199 --> 01:51:09.039 throughout my life, all throughout my pastoral care. It's a 1811 01:51:09.119 --> 01:51:12.800 common thing that I hear all the time. And I've 1812 01:51:12.880 --> 01:51:15.840 known confessors that, oh, you're you're mortal sin. You got 1813 01:51:15.960 --> 01:51:17.439 to go, you know, we gotta we gotta absolve you 1814 01:51:17.520 --> 01:51:20.359 of this and you can never do it again again. 1815 01:51:20.920 --> 01:51:25.520 All right. You know, most people have figured this out 1816 01:51:25.560 --> 01:51:29.960 by the age of four or five. It's something everyone's done. 1817 01:51:30.399 --> 01:51:31.840 Even if you don't want to admit to it. I 1818 01:51:31.920 --> 01:51:34.720 guarantee you in some capacity you've figured it out at 1819 01:51:34.760 --> 01:51:37.039 some point in your life. Because you know what, there's 1820 01:51:37.079 --> 01:51:39.680 something called it's natural. And this is not something that 1821 01:51:39.920 --> 01:51:44.039 is necessarily harmful unless it starts turning into some kind 1822 01:51:44.119 --> 01:51:48.760 of distortion where now they don't know how to have 1823 01:51:49.159 --> 01:51:53.239 proper relationships with the opposite sex, or you know, maybe 1824 01:51:53.560 --> 01:51:56.760 it leads to some kind of pornography addiction. That's another matter. 1825 01:51:57.399 --> 01:51:59.760 I'm not saying that that's okay, But when I am 1826 01:51:59.800 --> 01:52:05.399 saying saying is it's very unhealthy too to not engage 1827 01:52:05.920 --> 01:52:10.880 sexually because you can have medical problems over time if you, 1828 01:52:11.079 --> 01:52:14.279 if you, if you withhold for so long, I'm particularly mad. 1829 01:52:14.319 --> 01:52:16.960 And that's I mean women too, But it's more important 1830 01:52:17.039 --> 01:52:20.840 for for men honestly, uh, because uh, there can be 1831 01:52:20.920 --> 01:52:23.439 blockages and other kinds of things that happen. Although the 1832 01:52:23.520 --> 01:52:25.359 church will say, oh, well the nocturnal emissions, take care, 1833 01:52:25.439 --> 01:52:29.399 that not always, not always, you know. And so again 1834 01:52:30.000 --> 01:52:33.399 this is biological. This is scientific. It is not moral 1835 01:52:33.960 --> 01:52:36.079 unless it turns into like, well you, like I said, 1836 01:52:36.159 --> 01:52:38.680 you know, you're you're you're you're getting an unhealthy relationship 1837 01:52:38.720 --> 01:52:41.239 with pornography and you're not relating to your spouse anymore. 1838 01:52:41.319 --> 01:52:44.439 That's a different matter. So we don't have a statement 1839 01:52:44.520 --> 01:52:46.920 on that one. And except to be like it's natural 1840 01:52:47.000 --> 01:52:50.119 and just move on with your life, okay, you know, 1841 01:52:50.199 --> 01:52:52.479 if you want absolution, I'll give you what absolution you 1842 01:52:52.600 --> 01:52:54.640 might need. But uh, you know, I'm not going to 1843 01:52:54.720 --> 01:52:56.439 go around telling people that go

into health for this 1844 01:52:57.800 --> 01:53:02.560 extramarital relationships among the laits. You know, pornication is a problem. 1845 01:53:02.760 --> 01:53:04.720 It's a problem in the Church of Rome, it's a 1846 01:53:04.760 --> 01:53:06.920 problem in the nicolay In Church. No difference really there 1847 01:53:09.159 --> 01:53:13.239 extra ecclesium nalasullus. That means that there's no salvation outside 1848 01:53:13.279 --> 01:53:15.600 the Catholic Church. We actually kind of agree with that 1849 01:53:15.800 --> 01:53:18.520 to the degree that we believe that the love and 1850 01:53:18.640 --> 01:53:20.800 grace of God is present in all religions, and so 1851 01:53:20.960 --> 01:53:23.720 therefore the Catholic Church is all of us, whether we 1852 01:53:23.960 --> 01:53:27.359 are officially Catholic or not, and so therefore we feel 1853 01:53:27.560 --> 01:53:29.600 just as the Church says. We talked about this last week, 1854 01:53:29.720 --> 01:53:32.800 you know that there is so you know, anybody outside 1855 01:53:32.920 --> 01:53:38.279 of in any religion can receive salvation through the truth 1856 01:53:38.359 --> 01:53:43.479 of their own religion, albeit imperfectly. Let me close out 1857 01:53:43.520 --> 01:53:46.720 here with our storiology. I don't want to get into 1858 01:53:48.239 --> 01:53:51.560 I mean, there's more things here. Female clergy. We don't 1859 01:53:51.560 --> 01:53:55.640 really have female clergy except for the deaconess, but it's 1860 01:53:55.680 --> 01:53:59.000 not holy orders. We do not confer holy orders on females, 1861 01:53:59.039 --> 01:54:02.000 but we do have the mind orders, and that includes 1862 01:54:02.039 --> 01:54:05.479 also the deaconus. So it's not the same as a deacon. 1863 01:54:05.720 --> 01:54:09.359 It's not a sacramental office, but it is a ministerial 1864 01:54:09.399 --> 01:54:12.119 office that a woman in our church can hold. I 1865 01:54:12.239 --> 01:54:14.720 just want to mention that our sotoriology, though, and I 1866 01:54:14.800 --> 01:54:17.479 mentioned this earlier, people could get a little bit upset 1867 01:54:17.520 --> 01:54:21.199 about this, is that remember how Protestants have sola feeda right. 1868 01:54:21.239 --> 01:54:23.680 They say, oh, you just need faith alone. It's just 1869 01:54:23.760 --> 01:54:25.760 faith in Jesus. I believe that Jesus and my Lord 1870 01:54:25.800 --> 01:54:28.560 and say you die from my sins. That's it. That's 1871 01:54:28.560 --> 01:54:30.520 what Protestants will teach a lot of them, not all 1872 01:54:30.520 --> 01:54:32.880 of them, but a lot of them do. Evangelicals will 1873 01:54:32.880 --> 01:54:37.119 definitely teach this. The Catholic and Orthodox churches expand on 1874 01:54:37.199 --> 01:54:39.880 this and say, no, it's not just faith, you need works. 1875 01:54:39.960 --> 01:54:42.720 Saint James makes it clear. So you have faith, which 1876 01:54:42.720 --> 01:54:44.960 is pistus in Greek. You have works with it, which 1877 01:54:45.039 --> 01:54:50.079 is erga okay, and then you have you know the 1878 01:54:50.159 --> 01:54:54.600 relationship between the two, which is that through faith you 1879 01:54:54.800 --> 01:54:58.279 then come to understand your obligation to the church, and 1880 01:54:58.439 --> 01:55:01.680 that there is a work that needs to be done 1881 01:55:01.760 --> 01:55:04.800 that Jesus talks about. By their fruits, you shall know them. 1882 01:55:05.279 --> 01:55:07.520 And this is why Saint James says that faith without 1883 01:55:07.560 --> 01:55:11.039 works is dead. So therefore Orthodox and Catholics teach that 1884 01:55:11.119 --> 01:55:15.439 to attain salvation you need. Faith is the door through 1885 01:55:15.920 --> 01:55:18.760 which you eventually come to the maturity of Christianity through 1886 01:55:18.800 --> 01:55:21.680 your works. But you need to actually do good things. 1887 01:55:22.560 --> 01:55:24.520 You need to actually live the life of Christ in 1888 01:55:24.720 --> 01:55:28.680 order to actually justify the fact that you really do 1889 01:55:28.880 --> 01:55:31.520 have the faith that you claim that you have. So ultimately, yeah, 1890 01:55:31.520 --> 01:55:34.479 it's true that you can't earn it. You can't earn salvation. 1891 01:55:34.520 --> 01:55:36.359 It's not like you can work your way through salvation. 1892 01:55:37.079 --> 01:55:38.760 You have to have the faith. It's the only way 1893 01:55:38.760 --> 01:55:41.720 to get the grace. But unless you actually use the faith, 1894 01:55:43.399 --> 01:55:47.359 then you don't get the salvation. We take it one 1895 01:55:47.399 --> 01:55:51.039 step further, we say you also need epgnosis, which is 1896 01:55:51.640 --> 01:55:55.560 the fitting upon of the specific kind of knowledge that 1897 01:55:55.720 --> 01:56:00.319 can only come through an experiential relationship with Christ. And 1898 01:56:00.399 --> 01:56:02.680 you might say, well, Bishop, does that mean that I 1899 01:56:02.840 --> 01:56:06.239 need to understand Jesus to go to Heaven. Not really, 1900 01:56:06.560 --> 01:56:11.399 what it means is you can understand intellectually that Jesus 1901 01:56:11.560 --> 01:56:13.880 died for your sins on the cross. You can understand that. 1902 01:56:14.840 --> 01:56:19.199 Anybody can. The devil understands that. So does that make 1903 01:56:19.279 --> 01:56:21.279 him a Christian? Does that mean he's saved now because 1904 01:56:21.319 --> 01:56:24.600 he gets it he believes that Jesus died for everyone's sins. No, 1905 01:56:25.239 --> 01:56:28.319 that does not mean that. What it means is you 1906 01:56:28.399 --> 01:56:32.079 can intellectually understand something but not know it. Same thing 1907 01:56:32.159 --> 01:56:33.840 goes with the works. You can be like, I understand 1908 01:56:33.840 --> 01:56:35.279 that Jesus died for my sins. He wants me to 1909 01:56:35.399 --> 01:56:37.359 be a good person. I can get behind the

urga, 1910 01:56:37.520 --> 01:56:40.600 I can do the works. I'll go ahead and do 1911 01:56:40.800 --> 01:56:44.199 the works. But if you don't actually have the relationship 1912 01:56:44.239 --> 01:56:48.680 with Jesus, then guess what works without epignosis is dead 1913 01:56:50.199 --> 01:56:53.000 because you have to experience God. You have to have 1914 01:56:53.159 --> 01:56:58.680 the relationship with Him to truly enter into the perfection 1915 01:56:58.920 --> 01:57:04.399 of the Kingdom. Now, you might say, but why doesn't 1916 01:57:04.399 --> 01:57:06.640 the Catholic Church teach this? If it's true, it does 1917 01:57:06.840 --> 01:57:10.119 teach this, it just doesn't go into it with that understanding. 1918 01:57:11.119 --> 01:57:13.560 We're not really teaching anything different because all of this, 1919 01:57:13.840 --> 01:57:18.359 this experiential aspect of how God comes to us through 1920 01:57:18.479 --> 01:57:21.079 this knowing that happens when we participate in the life 1921 01:57:21.119 --> 01:57:24.319 of the church. It's automatic. So the church doesn't really 1922 01:57:24.359 --> 01:57:26.760 feel it needs to be discussed because it's like it's automatic. 1923 01:57:26.840 --> 01:57:28.479 If you have the faith and you do the work, 1924 01:57:28.600 --> 01:57:32.159 you're going to automatically get the hypignosis. But the problem 1925 01:57:32.319 --> 01:57:36.039 is in the field. I've met one too many Christians 1926 01:57:36.680 --> 01:57:41.119 that did the faith, did the works, didn't understand shit 1927 01:57:42.000 --> 01:57:47.359 all right. And so that's because they're not living. They're 1928 01:57:47.399 --> 01:57:50.319 not actually participating in the life of the church. They're 1929 01:57:50.399 --> 01:57:55.239 just doing the rote memorizations, but they're not actually living 1930 01:57:55.319 --> 01:57:56.760 the life, and they don't know how to feel it. 1931 01:57:57.359 --> 01:58:02.000 And so our church is about feeling it. My gosh, 1932 01:58:02.039 --> 01:58:04.960 I did go over the twenty minutes. I tried. I 1933 01:58:05.640 --> 01:58:08.399 did the whole segment. I'm sorry, But we'll have a 1934 01:58:08.439 --> 01:58:12.039 whole hour now to digest all of this. So we're 1935 01:58:12.039 --> 01:58:15.920 gonna we're gonna take our next break and when we 1936 01:58:16.000 --> 01:58:20.159 come back April and Father Chris will join us again 1937 01:58:20.239 --> 01:58:23.279 on the pianel, Jamie and myself and we're gonna talk 1938 01:58:23.359 --> 01:58:25.920 about this. What do you guys think? Tell us when 1939 01:58:25.920 --> 01:58:26.359 we come back. 1940 01:59:14.880 --> 02:01:34.039 Any Na Section siation stage at page pass stations, satisitional 1941 02:01:34.399 --> 02:01:44.520 fbitional fancial infecial station deitionitional facial defational solution the idea 1942 02:01:44.640 --> 02:01:54.920 of fitial focal potion scalational social stational scalptional scial scial 1943 02:01:55.279 --> 02:01:58.039 facial facial station. 1944 02:02:43.760 --> 02:02:44.000 Did. 1945 02:03:34.960 --> 02:03:44.119 I watched the evening crawl across your face. Colors fad 1946 02:03:44.800 --> 02:03:47.119 and something I can. 1947 02:03:52.159 --> 02:03:57.880 We used to talk about thousand different futures. 1948 02:03:59.279 --> 02:04:00.960 Now I'm daring. 1949 02:04:00.720 --> 02:04:10.800 Down the one that finally came. You asked me softly 1950 02:04:11.439 --> 02:04:18.279 if the road would stove from them, all the footsteps 1951 02:04:19.000 --> 02:04:27.159 that we carved into its spine. I held my breath, 1952 02:04:27.800 --> 02:04:33.960 but I never got to answer, because the truth was. 1953 02:04:35.680 --> 02:04:37.560 Just too heavy to define. 1954 02:04:40.800 --> 02:04:43.920 There's a store, some. 1955 02:04:44.239 --> 02:04:46.239 May maser folds. 1956 02:04:49.159 --> 02:04:51.239 And the last tier there. 1957 02:04:52.079 --> 02:05:02.079 Somebody asked, should there's peace that feels look like letting go? 1958 02:05:05.479 --> 02:05:07.079 And I swear. 1959 02:05:08.600 --> 02:05:12.760 I never wanted you to know, But. 1960 02:05:12.920 --> 02:05:18.479 I chose it anyway. God, I choose you anyway. 1961 02:05:23.359 --> 02:05:31.560 The morning came without a hint of consolation, just the 1962 02:05:31.760 --> 02:05:40.359 quiet of a better with thor he cheated. I heard 1963 02:05:40.520 --> 02:05:41.880 your laughter. 1964 02:05:41.880 --> 02:05:49.720 Bleading through the conversation over agost I never forgot the 1965 02:05:50.000 --> 02:05:50.880 chance to me. 1966 02:05:55.720 --> 02:05:58.800 There was in the Troy. 1967 02:05:59.560 --> 02:06:00.720 Must several men. 1968 02:06:03.800 --> 02:06:16.760 Everywhere is tiny monumentories, happy, sweared by things you never mentioned, 1969 02:06:18.840 --> 02:06:21.560 and I felt every. 1970 02:06:21.680 --> 02:06:23.439 Silence on my face. 1971 02:06:27.000 --> 02:06:29.399 There's a last store. 1972 02:06:29.359 --> 02:06:37.000 That somebody has to close, and the last see. 1973 02:06:37.079 --> 02:06:40.039 That somebody asked to show. 1974 02:06:43.000 --> 02:06:44.560 There's a peace that. 1975 02:06:44.840 --> 02:06:47.880 Bears a lot like letting go. 1976 02:06:51.119 --> 02:06:51.760 And died. 1977 02:06:52.119 --> 02:06:59.000 Swear I never wanted you to know, but I chose 1978 02:06:59.079 --> 02:06:59.720 you anyway. 1979 02:07:02.319 --> 02:07:03.399 What I choose it. 1980 02:07:07.359 --> 02:07:11.479 Maybe mercy isn't gensel. Maybe mercy leaves a stay and 1981 02:07:11.800 --> 02:07:15.279 be loving. Someone deeply leads you carry all their face. 1982 02:07:15.479 --> 02:07:18.600 I keep seeing all the futures that we ever in 1983 02:07:18.800 --> 02:07:21.680 the spring. How hardest part of loving. 1984 02:07:21.600 --> 02:07:23.079 Is the ending of it. 1985 02:07:27.479 --> 02:07:31.920 There's a story that somebody. 1986 02:07:31.520 -->

02:07:39.800 Has to move, and the last bres somebody has. 1987 02:07:43.399 --> 02:07:51.840 Oh, there's a quiet that feels corner and so, and 1988 02:07:52.079 --> 02:07:53.319 I swear. 1989 02:07:54.840 --> 02:07:59.760 I never wanted you to know, but I choose it 1990 02:07:59.840 --> 02:08:00.560 a way. 1991 02:08:03.039 --> 02:08:04.359 Ass anyway. 1992 02:08:07.960 --> 02:08:12.840 If forgiveness has a voice, I hope it sings. 1993 02:08:16.199 --> 02:08:18.800 And if Heaven has. 1994 02:08:18.720 --> 02:08:22.359 A lie, I hope it brings. 1995 02:08:24.399 --> 02:08:32.399 Something warm for you, because I'm. 1996 02:08:32.399 --> 02:08:34.039 Still walking through. 1997 02:08:38.800 --> 02:08:42.119 Every shadow of the things I couldn't say. 1998 02:09:37.079 --> 02:10:29.600 Boot Welcome back everyone to the third and final hour 1999 02:10:29.760 --> 02:10:33.880 of Vestiges After Dark. This season, it's been a great season, 2000 02:10:33.960 --> 02:10:39.560 and hopefully you've enjoyed today's presentation on esoteric Christianity and practice. 2001 02:10:40.159 --> 02:10:42.199 I mean I could have done one unjust the theology, 2002 02:10:42.239 --> 02:10:43.600 but I thought you'd get more out of it by 2003 02:10:43.720 --> 02:10:47.720 understanding how a church like ours actually applies it and 2004 02:10:48.159 --> 02:10:50.159 give you some kind of understanding as to the you know, 2005 02:10:50.199 --> 02:10:55.600 the very nature of you know, the internal Christ. You know, 2006 02:10:55.720 --> 02:10:59.359 how we find Christ inside us because He is there 2007 02:11:00.079 --> 02:11:02.880 outside of two of course, but there's a transcendent aspect 2008 02:11:02.920 --> 02:11:09.239 as well as an internal one. So you know, I 2009 02:11:09.319 --> 02:11:13.039 think need to always keep that in mind as we 2010 02:11:13.239 --> 02:11:17.600 approach any Christianity, whichever denomination you practice. You know, we're 2011 02:11:17.640 --> 02:11:20.000 not that different from the Church of Rome. They really aren't. 2012 02:11:20.560 --> 02:11:23.199 Hopefully this show help you to understand that when we 2013 02:11:23.239 --> 02:11:26.199 come back, your questions and discussion from the Camel don't 2014 02:11:26.239 --> 02:13:00.800 go away. Calling in from the five of five area 2015 02:13:00.920 --> 02:13:04.840 code in north western New Mexico. Hello, you're on the 2016 02:13:04.920 --> 02:13:06.439 air with Vestiges after Dark. 2017 02:13:08.399 --> 02:13:08.800 Bishop. 2018 02:13:08.880 --> 02:13:11.079 This is Vell. Hey, Well how does it go. It's 2019 02:13:11.079 --> 02:13:14.079 always good to hear from you. She's She's Moosh everyone 2020 02:13:14.279 --> 02:13:18.439 in the chat. One of our fantastic moderators and very 2021 02:13:18.520 --> 02:13:21.680 much an appreciated part of our church. Oh, thank you 2022 02:13:21.760 --> 02:13:23.760 for calling in. What's your what's your question or comment? 2023 02:13:25.239 -->

02:13:28.960 Well, okay, now you know I'm Eastern Orthodox, Yes, but 2024 02:13:29.079 --> 02:13:32.439 I love Holy Nicole and Church because I feel at 2025 02:13:32.479 --> 02:13:37.319 home there. It's that blend that you offer and I 2026 02:13:37.520 --> 02:13:42.680 feel so comfortable there. But I noticed differences between the 2027 02:13:42.760 --> 02:13:46.199 Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox that I'm not quite clear on. 2028 02:13:47.159 --> 02:13:50.000 And one of those is a topic I discussed with Paula, 2029 02:13:50.239 --> 02:13:53.760 and that's regarding the Rosary. I didn't grow up with 2030 02:13:53.840 --> 02:13:57.600 the Rosary, and I don't quite understand it. But I 2031 02:13:57.760 --> 02:14:00.800 noticed that you had said was really benefit, but I 2032 02:14:00.880 --> 02:14:03.399 don't understand if it's something I should learn. And the 2033 02:14:03.560 --> 02:14:09.359 other question would be that the cross is made different. 2034 02:14:10.760 --> 02:14:13.239 We hold our fingers in a certain position. That's what 2035 02:14:13.319 --> 02:14:16.680 I was taught, and I noticed that most Catholics do 2036 02:14:16.800 --> 02:14:19.000 at the opposite, and they do it in a really 2037 02:14:19.159 --> 02:14:22.640 lax way, like they just kind of their hands kind 2038 02:14:22.680 --> 02:14:25.920 of tap their head or something. And I don't understand 2039 02:14:26.399 --> 02:14:29.600 when did this happen? I mean, if we were one 2040 02:14:29.760 --> 02:14:32.680 at one time before the split, how did this happen? 2041 02:14:33.319 --> 02:14:35.439 Yeah, that's an interesting Let's get to that one first, 2042 02:14:35.479 --> 02:14:39.159 because it's a somewhat easier one to answer. It goes 2043 02:14:39.279 --> 02:14:42.319 back to very early I'd say the first. 2044 02:14:44.279 --> 02:14:44.760 The change. 2045 02:14:44.840 --> 02:14:48.680 It's really hard to pinpoint it. It's somewhere though, around 2046 02:14:48.760 --> 02:14:54.000 four or five hundred where there were marked differences between 2047 02:14:54.520 --> 02:14:57.359 how one crosses in the western part of the Empire 2048 02:14:57.479 --> 02:15:01.560 versus the east. The crossing to the right is older. 2049 02:15:02.239 --> 02:15:05.479 It's actually older. To the right hand of God is 2050 02:15:05.560 --> 02:15:07.399 how it was done. And as you said that you 2051 02:15:07.520 --> 02:15:09.800 hold the fingers differently so in the east, and this 2052 02:15:09.960 --> 02:15:11.680 is what we do in the Nicoleyan Church. We cross 2053 02:15:11.760 --> 02:15:15.479 to the right. We have the you put the three 2054 02:15:15.560 --> 02:15:17.720 fingers together at the top and then the two fingers 2055 02:15:17.840 --> 02:15:20.640 internal which means the Father's Son in Holy Spirit, which 2056 02:15:20.680 --> 02:15:23.199 is the three and then the two fingers internal is 2057 02:15:23.319 --> 02:15:26.640 the two natures of Christ, fully Man and fully

God. 2058 02:15:27.079 --> 02:15:29.560 And then it's Father's Son Holy Spirit to the right 2059 02:15:29.600 --> 02:15:32.079 shoulder and then across to the left. In the in 2060 02:15:32.159 --> 02:15:35.279 the West, it's usually an open hand, you know, and 2061 02:15:35.359 --> 02:15:37.960 then they cross to the left first and then to 2062 02:15:38.079 --> 02:15:41.199 the right. Both are valid. There's not one that's an 2063 02:15:41.359 --> 02:15:45.560 invalid way of doing it. It definitely could seem lax 2064 02:15:45.640 --> 02:15:49.840 in the sense that it doesn't have the same theological symbology, 2065 02:15:49.920 --> 02:15:53.000 but that just is power for the cross. I almost 2066 02:15:53.039 --> 02:15:56.520 say power for the cross, power for the cau. The 2067 02:15:56.640 --> 02:16:02.680 course with with with Orthodoxy, because everything in Orthodoxy has 2068 02:16:03.159 --> 02:16:07.479 layer upon layer of symbolic meaning, whereas in the East, 2069 02:16:08.119 --> 02:16:11.960 being a more legalistic approach to the religion, I think 2070 02:16:12.319 --> 02:16:15.800 kind of simplifies those aspects. They get really complex when 2071 02:16:15.800 --> 02:16:20.479 it comes to explanations, but they get more I guess 2072 02:16:20.520 --> 02:16:22.199 you could say, just a little bit more relaxed than 2073 02:16:22.239 --> 02:16:24.600 every other aspect of it. Which is why you know, 2074 02:16:24.760 --> 02:16:28.000 some Orthodox people can go to a Roman Catholic Mass 2075 02:16:28.439 --> 02:16:31.239 and depending upon the parish that they go to, might 2076 02:16:31.359 --> 02:16:34.079 be have a less than stellar experience there because it 2077 02:16:34.159 --> 02:16:39.399 might seem not as people aren't as into it as much. 2078 02:16:39.559 --> 02:16:43.799 It might feel a little bits shallow and maybe a 2079 02:16:43.840 --> 02:16:48.479 little transparent in places that the rich mystical tradition of 2080 02:16:48.639 --> 02:16:52.879 Orthodoxy maintains very well. And so that's the difference. And 2081 02:16:53.000 --> 02:16:55.479 because the nicol And Church is actually a blend between 2082 02:16:55.879 --> 02:16:59.600 East and West, we of course use an econostosis. Are 2083 02:17:00.360 --> 02:17:06.239 our altar is cubicle in shape, it's not a rectangular, uh. 2084 02:17:06.680 --> 02:17:12.440 We face away from the the congregation. The Roman Church 2085 02:17:12.600 --> 02:17:16.799 turned it around. Uh, you know, there's there's elements with Obviously, 2086 02:17:16.879 --> 02:17:19.799 our sensor is an Eastern censor that we use the 2087 02:17:19.879 --> 02:17:22.360 bells and during you know, when it's not lent, that 2088 02:17:22.520 --> 02:17:25.120 kind of thing. So that's that's what it is. But 2089 02:17:25.280 --> 02:17:27.840 both are valid ways of doing the Sign of the Cross. 2090 02:17:27.920 --> 02:17:29.159 It's not as though they're getting less. 2091 02:17:29.200 --> 02:17:34.920 If you've actually described where esoteric and exoteric intersect. 2092 02:17:35.120 --> 02:17:36.920 Oh, here we go. Okay, let's see, let's tie it 2093 02:17:37.000 --> 02:17:39.680 into the subject. That's great. Yeah, let's do it well. 2094 02:17:39.959 --> 02:17:43.719 Because you know, the esoteric or the or the inner 2095 02:17:44.600 --> 02:17:46.280 in making the sign of the cross, the you know, 2096 02:17:46.399 --> 02:17:50.360 the the inner contemplative tradition is in both. 2097 02:17:50.399 --> 02:17:51.799 It doesn't matter east or west. 2098 02:17:52.079 --> 02:17:56.079 The concept is saying, I'm I'm entering into an inner 2099 02:17:56.159 --> 02:18:01.280 focus on on Jesus Christ, on the Holy and on 2100 02:18:01.360 --> 02:18:05.760 the Holy Trinity. So that's the that's the esoteric action. 2101 02:18:06.399 --> 02:18:10.440 The exoteric action is the is the is physically making 2102 02:18:10.479 --> 02:18:14.040 the sign. Now, if either church and by the way, 2103 02:18:14.120 --> 02:18:17.239 they don't, if either church said, oh, if you cross 2104 02:18:17.319 --> 02:18:19.360 that way or and not that way, then you know, 2105 02:18:21.440 --> 02:18:23.840 dogmatically you're outside of the church and you're going to hell. 2106 02:18:25.120 --> 02:18:28.520 That that would and they don't do that. 2107 02:18:28.799 --> 02:18:31.120 The church won't do that, but the coggregants will. Because 2108 02:18:31.159 --> 02:18:34.239 when I was well, we were on ghost adventures and 2109 02:18:34.280 --> 02:18:36.040 they saw me cross into the right. They said, see, 2110 02:18:36.040 --> 02:18:37.959 he's not even a real bishop. He doesn't even know 2111 02:18:38.040 --> 02:18:40.520 how to cross correctly. I mean, you wouldn't believe how 2112 02:18:40.559 --> 02:18:41.600 many people said. 2113 02:18:41.399 --> 02:18:44.760 That to me, thinking upside down and crosses the sign 2114 02:18:44.799 --> 02:18:50.079 of the instead of so. But you've got this, this 2115 02:18:50.360 --> 02:18:51.600 this interaction, you know. 2116 02:18:52.000 --> 02:18:55.799 And now if we were ever saying that that work 2117 02:18:56.159 --> 02:18:58.479 saved you or didn't save you, then we'd be in 2118 02:18:58.600 --> 02:19:00.920 complete agreement with the evange locals work. 2119 02:19:01.079 --> 02:19:02.319 That work will not save you. 2120 02:19:02.319 --> 02:19:04.079 If you cross yourself to the left or the right, 2121 02:19:04.399 --> 02:19:06.440 it neither saves you nor condemned you. In fact, if 2122 02:19:06.479 --> 02:19:07.920 you don't make the sign of the cross at all, 2123 02:19:08.239 --> 02:19:11.680 it would make no difference to your salvation. You know, 2124 02:19:11.959 --> 02:19:15.719 the the I'm with you the Eastern way of crossing yourself. 2125 02:19:16.600 --> 02:19:18.760 You know, I've kind of because I was with the 2126 02:19:18.799 --> 02:19:23.719 Eastern Church for a long time as well. If I'm 2127 02:19:23.760 -->

02:19:26.600 in a Western church after, you know, just by convention, 2128 02:19:27.000 --> 02:19:29.239 you know, I want to No one cares, but you know, 2129 02:19:29.440 --> 02:19:30.799 I want to do what other people are doing. 2130 02:19:30.879 --> 02:19:31.120 Sort of. 2131 02:19:31.239 --> 02:19:33.799 I'm not there. People don't think I'm making a spectacle 2132 02:19:33.840 --> 02:19:34.799 of myself, you know. 2133 02:19:34.959 --> 02:19:39.840 But it does make more sense the Eastern Way because 2134 02:19:39.840 --> 02:19:44.959 it also it mirrors the blessing that bishop gives to 2135 02:19:45.000 --> 02:19:48.200 the congregations, to the ideas that hands follow them the 2136 02:19:48.319 --> 02:19:51.799 direction of the of the blessing priest or bishop. So, 2137 02:19:52.600 --> 02:19:55.520 but you're right, the answer is, no one knows why 2138 02:19:56.719 --> 02:19:57.639 it swaps over there. 2139 02:19:57.639 --> 02:20:00.280 I think it's regional. I think it's just regional. Abbit 2140 02:20:00.959 --> 02:20:01.520 thinks so too. 2141 02:20:01.799 --> 02:20:03.879 I think I think in the British Aisles they were 2142 02:20:03.879 --> 02:20:07.200 crossing themselves what we now call the Eastern Way for 2143 02:20:07.280 --> 02:20:10.479 a lot longer. I think that probably persisted until after 2144 02:20:10.559 --> 02:20:15.399 ten sixty six. So but yeah, the answer is it's 2145 02:20:15.399 --> 02:20:20.600 a convention. And if you walked into a into a 2146 02:20:20.639 --> 02:20:22.639 Western church and didn't make the sign of the cross, 2147 02:20:23.079 --> 02:20:26.799 likely no one had noticed. But because when you enter 2148 02:20:26.840 --> 02:20:29.239 an Eastern church, either by the door or in the center, 2149 02:20:29.319 --> 02:20:32.600 there's an icon that you're you know that the norm 2150 02:20:32.719 --> 02:20:34.520 is to go and venerate the icon, and therefore you 2151 02:20:34.600 --> 02:20:37.719 make the sign of the cross three times, and. 2152 02:20:37.760 --> 02:20:41.920 Then it's much more likely to be noticed. 2153 02:20:42.000 --> 02:20:45.360 But of course both churches would say if the priest 2154 02:20:45.399 --> 02:20:50.000 of bishop would say, you're not there to be inspecting 2155 02:20:50.159 --> 02:20:52.440 the piety or religious. 2156 02:20:52.000 --> 02:20:55.760 Observance of the people in the congregation. You're there to 2157 02:20:55.879 --> 02:20:58.079 work out your own salvation imferi in trembling. 2158 02:20:58.479 --> 02:21:01.079 Yeah, I like that. And to the second part. The 2159 02:21:01.200 --> 02:21:03.000 first part of your question, I guess you could say 2160 02:21:03.559 --> 02:21:06.120 was about the Rosary. Yeah, it's just not something that 2161 02:21:06.520 --> 02:21:13.280 is practiced in Eastern Orthodoxyn't. No, it really it's not 2162 02:21:13.440 --> 02:21:15.799 a requirement at all. It's a it's a it's a 2163 02:21:15.920 --> 02:21:19.680 tradition that is really mostly a private tradition, although there 2164 02:21:19.719 --> 02:21:21.719 are churches that will sometimes do it after the Mass, 2165 02:21:21.799 --> 02:21:26.040 but it is actually forbidden to during It's forbidden to 2166 02:21:26.079 --> 02:21:28.079 do during the Mass, and I kind of agree that 2167 02:21:28.159 --> 02:21:30.600 it kind of distracts from it. It is a personal 2168 02:21:30.680 --> 02:21:33.959 observation that you can do. Orthodoxy has their own version 2169 02:21:34.000 --> 02:21:36.319 of it, which is the Jesus prayer, Lord Jesus Christ, 2170 02:21:36.360 --> 02:21:37.719 Son of God of Mercy on me a sinner, and 2171 02:21:37.760 --> 02:21:41.280 you can use beads for that too. So it's really 2172 02:21:41.440 --> 02:21:45.479 just a way of suspending your rational brain so that 2173 02:21:45.639 --> 02:21:48.239 you can lose yourself into the prayer and more easily 2174 02:21:49.000 --> 02:21:52.959 open yourself up to God and that's really all that 2175 02:21:53.200 --> 02:21:56.399 kind of meditative prayer is about. It's not about the repetitions. 2176 02:21:56.440 --> 02:22:00.440 It's about doing something that's prayerful that doesn't rick quire 2177 02:22:00.879 --> 02:22:03.360 conscious thoughts, so that that part of your brain can 2178 02:22:03.440 --> 02:22:06.600 sort of take a rest and the more internal aspects 2179 02:22:06.680 --> 02:22:10.280 of your spirituality can can come out and. 2180 02:22:10.360 --> 02:22:12.840 You can do it really good with an ADHD brain. 2181 02:22:12.959 --> 02:22:15.440 Yeah, that's true because it gives you. 2182 02:22:15.479 --> 02:22:16.639 Something to do, you know. 2183 02:22:16.920 --> 02:22:21.559 But but also I always push back on repetitive prayer. 2184 02:22:22.920 --> 02:22:27.520 It's a Protestant talking point. You can never say the 2185 02:22:27.559 --> 02:22:30.000 same prayer twice because it's a new moment in time. 2186 02:22:30.399 --> 02:22:32.079 There you go, that's one look at it. 2187 02:22:32.120 --> 02:22:35.520 And no Protestant says, well, I told my wife I 2188 02:22:35.600 --> 02:22:37.360 loved when I met her, so I don't need to 2189 02:22:37.399 --> 02:22:37.879 do it again. 2190 02:22:38.840 --> 02:22:40.440 But what about like the how they end it with 2191 02:22:40.600 --> 02:22:43.280 every everything in Jesus name. It's like what Jesus doesn't 2192 02:22:43.559 --> 02:22:45.680 eed is to hear that every single time. I mean, 2193 02:22:45.719 --> 02:22:47.000 come on, And. 2194 02:22:47.120 --> 02:22:52.200 Also the word just just wanna just want I just 2195 02:22:52.280 --> 02:22:54.719 wanna just wanna Why not say Hail Mary? 2196 02:22:54.959 --> 02:22:57.879 Yeah, there you go, it's a little bit better. So no, 2197 02:22:58.040 --> 02:23:00.360 I don't think it's something that you have to learn balance, 2198 02:23:00.440 --> 02:23:02.360 you're interested in it, and it's something that you can 2199 02:23:02.639 --> 02:23:04.520 very

easily pick up to see if you like it. 2200 02:23:04.559 --> 02:23:06.000 If it's a type of prayer that speaks to you. 2201 02:23:06.920 --> 02:23:08.799 It doesn't say I do value it and I do 2202 02:23:08.920 --> 02:23:11.360 pray it. Yeah, that's why I said, you don't have 2203 02:23:11.520 --> 02:23:11.879 to say it. 2204 02:23:12.000 --> 02:23:14.920 Yeah, yeah, you know, but I actually love it. But 2205 02:23:15.040 --> 02:23:17.559 I mean, the Eastern version is to just do the 2206 02:23:17.680 --> 02:23:20.920 Jesus prayer, which is a part of the Hessechasm tradition 2207 02:23:21.120 --> 02:23:24.000 of it leads to Theosis. So in a way, you 2208 02:23:24.079 --> 02:23:28.840 already have your own version of it. It's just not focused. Yeah, 2209 02:23:29.079 --> 02:23:31.319 that's true too. Yeah, and even in the Church of Rome, 2210 02:23:31.360 --> 02:23:34.040 there's the Chaplet of Saint Michael, there's a chaplet of 2211 02:23:34.079 --> 02:23:36.680 Divine Mercy. You see us do the Chaplet of Divine 2212 02:23:36.760 --> 02:23:41.520 Mercy on every Good Friday. We actually integrate that into 2213 02:23:41.600 --> 02:23:43.879 our Good Friday Service because actually the Good Friday Service 2214 02:23:44.239 --> 02:23:46.600 has sections in the rubric where you're allowed to kind 2215 02:23:46.639 --> 02:23:49.959 of just do whatever observances feel right because it's not 2216 02:23:50.040 --> 02:23:54.920 a Mass, it's just a more formal type of open liturgy. Really, 2217 02:23:55.440 --> 02:23:57.639 so there's different churches will be doing different. 2218 02:23:57.360 --> 02:24:01.600 For the bowels it's a pre sanctified this yeah, pre 2219 02:24:01.719 --> 02:24:04.959 sanctified which came from the West. And ironically there's only 2220 02:24:05.000 --> 02:24:06.840 one surviving in the West, which is a good Frida, 2221 02:24:07.360 --> 02:24:11.120 and the Eastern Church has many many pre sanct I 2222 02:24:11.159 --> 02:24:11.799 guess it's true. 2223 02:24:11.840 --> 02:24:12.879 Yeah, it came from the west. 2224 02:24:13.000 --> 02:24:15.680 Yeah, you're right. Yeah, it's interesting how that works. But 2225 02:24:16.280 --> 02:24:18.000 how that answers your question, fellan? Did it? 2226 02:24:19.280 --> 02:24:19.639 It does? 2227 02:24:19.879 --> 02:24:22.040 It does, And it makes me feel better that I 2228 02:24:22.079 --> 02:24:24.639 don't have to feel I sit in because I already 2229 02:24:24.760 --> 02:24:28.079 know that prayer. So I guess that that's suffice and 2230 02:24:28.639 --> 02:24:30.799 I won't worry about it. But sometimes I think about 2231 02:24:30.840 --> 02:24:33.760 the differences as I'm meeting people through the church, and 2232 02:24:34.719 --> 02:24:36.799 you know, I mean I kind of want to sit in, 2233 02:24:36.920 --> 02:24:39.840 but I already sit in. I know I do, and 2234 02:24:40.000 --> 02:24:41.760 you know I love the church and I love the 2235 02:24:41.879 --> 02:24:44.639 work you guys, do you know? Bless you well. 2236 02:24:44.639 --> 02:24:46.719 I appreciate that. I mean that means a lot, and 2237 02:24:46.799 --> 02:24:49.399 I mean you're you know you This church would not 2238 02:24:49.520 --> 02:24:52.159 be the same without you and the contributions you make 2239 02:24:52.360 --> 02:24:54.399 in terms of all your you know, being at every 2240 02:24:54.479 --> 02:24:57.280 mass and and and and being the moderator at all 2241 02:24:57.319 --> 02:25:01.280 these shows. I know that's a time commitment, and uh, 2242 02:25:01.559 --> 02:25:04.280 you know, we couldn't do what we do without you, 2243 02:25:04.360 --> 02:25:07.639 at least not well, you know, because we can't always 2244 02:25:07.680 --> 02:25:10.239 be looking at the chat when all of us have 2245 02:25:10.319 --> 02:25:12.719 a role at Mass. So you know, we're really grateful 2246 02:25:12.799 --> 02:25:14.000 for everything that you do. 2247 02:25:15.639 --> 02:25:18.040 I have a prayer rope and I love the Jesus prayer. 2248 02:25:18.520 --> 02:25:20.920 I use it to Jesus prayer too. I mean that 2249 02:25:21.000 --> 02:25:22.840 that that would be I mean that's more of an 2250 02:25:22.920 --> 02:25:25.719 Orthodox way of doing that kind same kind of prayer 2251 02:25:25.760 --> 02:25:27.639 will have the same effect. But if you want to 2252 02:25:27.680 --> 02:25:31.200 try the rosary, you know, that's that's always open. Not 2253 02:25:31.639 --> 02:25:32.799 but like Father Chris said, not a. 2254 02:25:32.799 --> 02:25:35.600 Rec I'm sure. I'm sure Paula is bringing the rosary 2255 02:25:35.639 --> 02:25:38.959 when we come to you. Okay, I will probably observe this. 2256 02:25:39.360 --> 02:25:41.079 All right, Well we can we can try it, you know, 2257 02:25:41.159 --> 02:25:43.239 we can try when you guys come out to thereat. 2258 02:25:43.879 --> 02:25:47.920 There's there's nothing in it that's hostile to Orthodoxy, nothing 2259 02:25:47.959 --> 02:25:48.319 at all. 2260 02:25:49.239 --> 02:25:53.920 Well, subject to there's a mystery, the mystery of the 2261 02:25:53.959 --> 02:25:58.319 assumption that they don't get the dirmisi. Yeah, and there's 2262 02:25:58.319 --> 02:26:01.360 the Immaculate conception too, But you know, these are these 2263 02:26:01.399 --> 02:26:03.639 are things that you can just look at them from 2264 02:26:03.639 --> 02:26:05.959 the orthodox vantage point, because you do have the door mission, 2265 02:26:06.319 --> 02:26:08.319 and it's not that different from the assumption. It really 2266 02:26:08.440 --> 02:26:12.239 isn't it really isn't. You know, these are just kinds 2267 02:26:12.280 --> 02:26:14.280 of things that the Alogians like to argue about because 2268 02:26:14.280 --> 02:26:15.079 they have nothing better to do. 2269 02:26:16.440 --> 02:26:16.479 That. 2270 02:26:16.760 --> 02:26:20.120 No, no, no, certainly wasn't that. But thanks so much 2271 02:26:20.159 --> 02:26:21.000 for calling in, Vellop.

2272 02:26:21.040 --> 02:26:23.600 We appreciate it well, and thanks for your time. Okay, 2273 02:26:23.879 --> 02:26:25.520 let you go, absolutely, thank you. 2274 02:26:26.920 --> 02:26:29.239 Uh yeah, if you got a call a question rather 2275 02:26:29.360 --> 02:26:31.719 and want to call in a comment, story anything, two 2276 02:26:31.879 --> 02:26:34.559 seven five four four nineteen eighty three. That's two zero 2277 02:26:34.680 --> 02:26:36.760 seven five four four nineteen eighty three. I have it 2278 02:26:36.840 --> 02:26:39.000 on the screen for anyone that would like to call 2279 02:26:39.120 --> 02:26:42.920 in and ask your questions or tell us your stories. 2280 02:26:43.920 --> 02:26:46.760 So yeah, I mean I went through a lot in 2281 02:26:46.920 --> 02:26:50.479 the last segment very quickly. There's so much that I 2282 02:26:50.479 --> 02:26:52.239 could have said about all of those points, and there 2283 02:26:52.280 --> 02:26:54.319 were points I didn't even really have time to get to. 2284 02:26:55.559 --> 02:27:01.200 But I think that was a good sort of preparatory 2285 02:27:01.760 --> 02:27:07.680 introduction to what esoteric Christianity looks like as a nicol 2286 02:27:07.879 --> 02:27:12.600 In tradition, because it's not a Gnostic tradition. We're not gnostics. 2287 02:27:13.399 --> 02:27:16.159 We talk about gnosis, but only in the same sense 2288 02:27:16.200 --> 02:27:18.319 that the New Testament uses the word. We don't use 2289 02:27:18.399 --> 02:27:21.399 it in the gnosticism sense. We don't believe in the 2290 02:27:21.559 --> 02:27:24.440 demi urge, and you know, we're not trying to escape 2291 02:27:24.520 --> 02:27:29.000 the evils of the physical world where there's transcendence there. 2292 02:27:29.600 --> 02:27:31.200 But but we also understand. 2293 02:27:33.920 --> 02:27:37.639 I'm I right in thinking because you know, especially the 2294 02:27:37.760 --> 02:27:40.440 first half of what you were saying, I didn't see 2295 02:27:40.440 --> 02:27:44.760 any distinction between what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches. 2296 02:27:45.840 --> 02:27:49.440 I do want to draw a distinction, which is which 2297 02:27:49.520 --> 02:27:52.120 is what the Roman Catho Church actually teaches as opposed 2298 02:27:52.159 --> 02:27:58.479 to what people think it and what people badly teach. Okay, 2299 02:27:58.959 --> 02:28:04.200 so there're threefferent concepts. And like I said about a 2300 02:28:04.239 --> 02:28:07.200 different topic, a priest is just a priest, a bishop 2301 02:28:07.319 --> 02:28:07.959 is just a bishop. 2302 02:28:08.319 --> 02:28:08.479 You know. 2303 02:28:08.879 --> 02:28:13.159 Not everything that a bishop and priest teaches is necessarily 2304 02:28:13.920 --> 02:28:16.319 solidly based on what the Roman Catholic Church teach you 2305 02:28:16.520 --> 02:28:20.520 it should be or and or is sometimes explained in 2306 02:28:20.600 --> 02:28:21.559 a way that we think. 2307 02:28:21.440 --> 02:28:24.000 We've communicated what the church teaches, but what you've heard 2308 02:28:24.079 --> 02:28:24.799 is something different. 2309 02:28:24.959 --> 02:28:25.680 Right, And so. 2310 02:28:27.159 --> 02:28:29.319 Fulton Sheen, one of his famous things was to say, 2311 02:28:29.479 --> 02:28:32.040 you know, there's no one on earth that objects to 2312 02:28:32.120 --> 02:28:35.280 what the Catholic Church teaches. There are many people that 2313 02:28:35.399 --> 02:28:38.040 objects to what they think the Catholic Church teaches. Like 2314 02:28:38.639 --> 02:28:40.799 this kind of way of saying the same thing. But 2315 02:28:41.319 --> 02:28:45.399 am I right in saying that by foregrounding that you're 2316 02:28:45.399 --> 02:28:50.239 an esoteric Catholic Church. What you're saying is that, because 2317 02:28:50.280 --> 02:28:52.600 I said that, the opposite is exoteric. Right, So you've 2318 02:28:52.639 --> 02:28:58.840 got the structural outward interactions like the liturgies and all 2319 02:28:58.879 --> 02:29:03.000 of that is sort of the soteric. Ye, esoteric is 2320 02:29:03.040 --> 02:29:05.760 the inner life. All of these exists within the church 2321 02:29:05.799 --> 02:29:09.879 that John of the Cross, the consemplative tradition. But what 2322 02:29:10.000 --> 02:29:13.120 you're saying is that this church places greater emphasis on 2323 02:29:13.239 --> 02:29:16.959 the inner life. I don't think that's a bad thing. 2324 02:29:17.000 --> 02:29:21.280 By the way, we place a greater emphasis on, or 2325 02:29:21.399 --> 02:29:27.559 foreground the inner journey, partly in response to the fact 2326 02:29:27.600 --> 02:29:31.280 that there's been too much focus on the externalities. 2327 02:29:31.639 --> 02:29:34.600 Yeah, that's that's a very accurate and very i would 2328 02:29:34.680 --> 02:29:39.319 say enlightened way of putting it, because I really could 2329 02:29:39.360 --> 02:29:41.319 have said it better myself, and I hope that that's. 2330 02:29:41.159 --> 02:29:42.959 Definitely a Father Yates response. 2331 02:29:44.559 --> 02:29:47.360 I hope it came across in the last hour that 2332 02:29:47.719 --> 02:29:49.879 this is really what we're all about, because I think 2333 02:29:49.959 --> 02:29:52.879 people think that it's some kind of strange gnostic. 2334 02:29:52.879 --> 02:29:55.959 Church or something thrown around when I first came. 2335 02:29:57.879 --> 02:29:59.000 Around from time to time. 2336 02:30:00.040 --> 02:30:04.040 Whils Yeah, in the in the in the actual definition 2337 02:30:04.159 --> 02:30:06.399 of colts, not the not the modern vernacular. 2338 02:30:06.600 --> 02:30:09.600 There's a picture when I we had the the the 2339 02:30:10.920 --> 02:30:14.840 the religious Order, you know, of the the with the nuns, 2340 02:30:15.079 --> 02:30:17.239 you know, and we had you know, sister Mary Joan 2341 02:30:17.319 --> 02:30:20.239 back then, and and and and Tracy was Sister

Maximilian 2342 02:30:20.280 --> 02:30:25.040 when everyone was was in the the Order of Seven Archangels, 2343 02:30:25.399 --> 02:30:27.360 we had a picture of all of when when the 2344 02:30:27.559 --> 02:30:29.719 Order was at its largest, we had a picture with 2345 02:30:29.920 --> 02:30:33.879 me and all the nuns. And the first comment on 2346 02:30:34.079 --> 02:30:38.000 the first on that being posted was, see, I told 2347 02:30:38.000 --> 02:30:40.920 you it's a cult. There's all those are all his women. 2348 02:30:42.319 --> 02:30:42.479 You know. 2349 02:30:42.920 --> 02:30:47.479 And I'm not kidding. They really said this, you know, 2350 02:30:47.600 --> 02:30:48.639 and they really thought. 2351 02:30:52.079 --> 02:30:52.440 It's like. 2352 02:30:56.639 --> 02:30:59.319 Please, you know, but that that was that was what 2353 02:30:59.520 --> 02:31:01.559 was said. And so you know, there is this this 2354 02:31:01.760 --> 02:31:07.719 this this belief that because there is this belief that 2355 02:31:08.440 --> 02:31:11.159 because we are an esoteric church, that this means that 2356 02:31:11.239 --> 02:31:14.959 we're into some weird ship, and I understand just. 2357 02:31:15.000 --> 02:31:17.239 Some weird ship, but it's good weird ship. 2358 02:31:17.319 --> 02:31:17.520 Yeah. 2359 02:31:17.760 --> 02:31:21.760 And there's a difference between, you know, the weird ship 2360 02:31:21.879 --> 02:31:25.200 that we talk about being doctrine in a church, which 2361 02:31:25.239 --> 02:31:29.879 it is not here, and being philosophically open and speculative 2362 02:31:29.959 --> 02:31:34.520 and intellectuals. Yes, it is explorers. That's a very good 2363 02:31:34.520 --> 02:31:35.000 way to put it. 2364 02:31:36.159 --> 02:31:37.920 As I was listening to you, I was thinking, what's 2365 02:31:37.959 --> 02:31:40.719 the Jungian archetype for what you're describing? 2366 02:31:40.879 --> 02:31:46.440 And is the wanderer right now? But the but, and 2367 02:31:46.520 --> 02:31:48.959 this is where you did. You did four ground that 2368 02:31:49.120 --> 02:31:50.440 you know the word. 2369 02:31:50.799 --> 02:31:53.479 You're using the word dogmatic in a particular way, which 2370 02:31:53.559 --> 02:31:56.559 which I accept, and you even said that you know 2371 02:31:56.680 --> 02:32:00.000 I use it it's more classical sense, which is also. 2372 02:31:59.840 --> 02:32:00.680 A right. 2373 02:32:02.680 --> 02:32:03.639 We have to make that. 2374 02:32:04.040 --> 02:32:06.040 Yeah, And I think that's helpful because you're right, most 2375 02:32:06.079 --> 02:32:08.440 people listening to the show just think a dogmatic church 2376 02:32:08.559 --> 02:32:09.760 means a finger wagging church. 2377 02:32:09.840 --> 02:32:09.959 Right. 2378 02:32:11.520 --> 02:32:14.360 But but whereas you know the true the true meaning 2379 02:32:14.360 --> 02:32:17.360 of the word dogma, I'm really not trying to recover 2380 02:32:17.479 --> 02:32:19.680 the word or play some antics, and I think it's pointless. 2381 02:32:19.719 --> 02:32:22.879 But because I think what you described is helpful and good. 2382 02:32:23.399 --> 02:32:30.000 But even Young himself with the Wanderer, even though Young 2383 02:32:30.200 --> 02:32:35.200 was sort of skeptical about the dogmatic claims of the church, 2384 02:32:35.840 --> 02:32:39.760 he said, essentially, you have to have the dogmatic claims 2385 02:32:39.840 --> 02:32:43.120 in order to be the Wanderer, right, so psychologically, the 2386 02:32:43.200 --> 02:32:44.239 only safe way to do. 2387 02:32:44.360 --> 02:32:47.879 That is to so in other words, you need dogma 2388 02:32:47.959 --> 02:32:50.399 in order to be the Wanderer. I mean, it's a 2389 02:32:50.479 --> 02:32:53.719 bit like if you know, if you're making music. You know, 2390 02:32:53.799 --> 02:32:56.840 I'm a musician. I studied music, you know, classical and 2391 02:32:57.239 --> 02:32:58.040 rock and all the rest of it. 2392 02:32:58.440 --> 02:33:03.360 The structure to music, right, But the structure isn't there 2393 02:33:03.440 --> 02:33:05.360 to impose restrictions of it. 2394 02:33:05.479 --> 02:33:07.520 It's there. It's there as a means by which you 2395 02:33:07.600 --> 02:33:09.040 can then do something creative. 2396 02:33:10.000 --> 02:33:12.159 So you know, rather than a blank canvas, you have 2397 02:33:12.239 --> 02:33:14.440 a stave and you have you know, form, and you 2398 02:33:14.520 --> 02:33:17.159 have these sorts of harmony in the way harmony work together, 2399 02:33:17.760 --> 02:33:21.319 and rather than being being a restriction on your creativity, 2400 02:33:21.399 --> 02:33:23.040 actually enables your creativity. 2401 02:33:23.399 --> 02:33:24.479 That's that's correct. 2402 02:33:24.559 --> 02:33:26.760 You know, I think what you can spell, you can 2403 02:33:26.840 --> 02:33:27.600 do poetry, you know. 2404 02:33:28.760 --> 02:33:30.319 I think one way that we can look at and 2405 02:33:30.360 --> 02:33:32.040 I can give you a very simple way I've said 2406 02:33:32.079 --> 02:33:34.000 this before, and I could have said it last hour, 2407 02:33:34.079 --> 02:33:36.200 but you know, it's still very much applies to what 2408 02:33:36.280 --> 02:33:40.760 we're talking about in a dogmatic church. In the context 2409 02:33:40.840 --> 02:33:48.239 that I'm using it, it is very problematic if for 2410 02:33:48.399 --> 02:33:51.520 a Christian in such a church, so let's say the 2411 02:33:51.600 --> 02:33:55.360 church are Roman this context, it would be very problematic 2412 02:33:55.520 --> 02:34:01.239 if some irrefutable proof came along, that proof without any question, 2413 02:34:01.360 --> 02:34:03.120 no one could no one could doubt it. I don't 2414 02:34:03.159 --> 02:34:04.879 know if that could even be possible, but let's just 2415 02:34:04.959 --> 02:34:07.559 pretend it is. You know, maybe it's someone whovents a 2416 02:34:07.600 --> 02:34:09.360

time machine or something, so we can go back and 2417 02:34:09.479 --> 02:34:13.600 see what really happened, that Jesus did not exist and 2418 02:34:13.680 --> 02:34:16.600 that he was just a story that was told, you know, 2419 02:34:18.159 --> 02:34:21.479 like any of the other mythologies that exist in the world. Okay, 2420 02:34:21.520 --> 02:34:24.159 so let's just say that that's the case. Okay. That 2421 02:34:24.239 --> 02:34:27.559 would be very problematic for a dogmatic church with a 2422 02:34:27.680 --> 02:34:32.799 dogmatic congregation because if Jesus is not a historical person 2423 02:34:32.879 --> 02:34:35.840 that did the things that the gospels say, well then 2424 02:34:36.120 --> 02:34:39.319 nothing really happened and nothing means anything. But see, in 2425 02:34:39.440 --> 02:34:42.799 an esoteric church that is non dogmatic about these things, 2426 02:34:43.040 --> 02:34:46.680 it wouldn't matter one bit, because I we understand in 2427 02:34:46.799 --> 02:34:49.399 this in the way that we approach theology, is that 2428 02:34:49.959 --> 02:34:52.440 whether Jesus was a historical person or not, which we 2429 02:34:52.559 --> 02:34:54.200 do believe he was, by the way, and we do 2430 02:34:54.360 --> 02:34:57.159 believe he did the things historically that the gospels report, 2431 02:34:57.879 --> 02:34:58.559 that's not interest. 2432 02:35:00.120 --> 02:35:02.879 I mean, well, actually it's not only not in dispute. 2433 02:35:03.479 --> 02:35:05.799 By definition, you can't say what you're going to say 2434 02:35:05.840 --> 02:35:06.879 unless you do believe that. 2435 02:35:07.079 --> 02:35:09.879 Well, that's true. But if I if it were to 2436 02:35:10.040 --> 02:35:16.159 come out that it didn't happen, it wouldn't change anything, 2437 02:35:16.280 --> 02:35:23.000 because the power of Christ is already present within the 2438 02:35:23.200 --> 02:35:27.879 events of what we experienced through the Gospel and the 2439 02:35:28.000 --> 02:35:32.319 sacramental participation that we get to engage with as Catholics. 2440 02:35:32.639 --> 02:35:38.399 So in the sense that's the definition of what is true, yes, yes, yes. 2441 02:35:38.719 --> 02:35:39.799 In other words, you. 2442 02:35:39.840 --> 02:35:42.920 Know, historically factual. Let's say that. Let's just say, if 2443 02:35:43.000 --> 02:35:47.120 it came out that it's not it was historically false, 2444 02:35:47.479 --> 02:35:50.760 that these things did not occur, it would not change anything. 2445 02:35:51.680 --> 02:35:55.079 I think I think I think you're describing the classical true. 2446 02:35:55.159 --> 02:35:59.399 Is it's true that the opposite of faith, sorry that 2447 02:35:59.680 --> 02:36:03.719 the it of faith is certainty, And I agree with 2448 02:36:03.799 --> 02:36:11.200 that yes, so, but here you know, it's also and 2449 02:36:11.280 --> 02:36:13.680 this is where I think this is a healthy dogmatic 2450 02:36:13.719 --> 02:36:16.040 approach

as opposed to what you're rightly condemning. 2451 02:36:17.479 --> 02:36:18.159 It is to say that. 2452 02:36:20.799 --> 02:36:23.040 It's not that when the church says this is true, 2453 02:36:23.120 --> 02:36:26.399 it's saying it's exhausted or mystery or you know, it's 2454 02:36:26.440 --> 02:36:29.319 got the exact definition of everything that's going on. But 2455 02:36:29.440 --> 02:36:32.840 what it says is that there are truths that have 2456 02:36:32.959 --> 02:36:37.399 been revealed and defined. And once they've been revealed and defined, 2457 02:36:37.879 --> 02:36:40.719 we don't revise downward. So although we can enter into mystery, 2458 02:36:40.799 --> 02:36:41.079 we don't. 2459 02:36:41.120 --> 02:36:44.479 We don't go backwards, you know, we go upwards. 2460 02:36:46.120 --> 02:36:54.159 And whereas certainty is the opposite of faith, humility and 2461 02:36:54.239 --> 02:36:58.360 certainty are not opposite. So and I think the healthy 2462 02:36:58.440 --> 02:37:02.280 dogmatism of what I I know that the actual church teaches, 2463 02:37:02.399 --> 02:37:04.639 as opposed to what's received or past, you know, what 2464 02:37:04.719 --> 02:37:07.959 people have experienced. So I'm not I'm not doubting people's 2465 02:37:08.120 --> 02:37:11.120 horrible experiences of interactions with the church. That's a that's 2466 02:37:11.159 --> 02:37:12.239 a different thing altogether. 2467 02:37:13.719 --> 02:37:15.079 Sin But but but. 2468 02:37:16.840 --> 02:37:20.719 It's not as though the magisterium and he actually touched 2469 02:37:20.760 --> 02:37:23.479 on this. The magistumers and say, right, here's all these truths, 2470 02:37:23.479 --> 02:37:25.040 We're going to beat you over the head with them. 2471 02:37:25.680 --> 02:37:27.719 It's the opposite of that. It is saying, these are 2472 02:37:27.760 --> 02:37:30.120 the truths that have been revealed to us, which we 2473 02:37:30.200 --> 02:37:33.319 hold in all humility, and therefore for it's from a 2474 02:37:33.959 --> 02:37:36.639 you know, the true approach of the of the Catholic 2475 02:37:37.159 --> 02:37:40.239 is to say, it's from a position of humility that 2476 02:37:40.360 --> 02:37:44.399 I beg you to consider this revealed truth of God 2477 02:37:44.840 --> 02:37:48.360 like babies in the womb, a precious you know. It's 2478 02:37:49.319 --> 02:37:52.760 whereas the finger wagging approaches oh, you know. And this 2479 02:37:52.920 --> 02:37:55.799 is abused by Catholics to say, well, a Catholic church 2480 02:37:55.840 --> 02:38:03.840 teaches this, so you're a you're an evil whatever. That 2481 02:38:04.000 --> 02:38:07.399 is a misuse and an abuse of the depositive faith 2482 02:38:07.440 --> 02:38:09.959 that the magisterium holds. It's not to be it's not 2483 02:38:10.079 --> 02:38:12.520 to be wielded as a cutel. It should be beheld 2484 02:38:12.600 --> 02:38:15.520 in all humidity to win souls for Christ. 2485 02:38:15.959 --> 02:38:19.879 Nothing

in religion, it's a love song, it is nothing 2486 02:38:20.040 --> 02:38:22.440 in religion. Nothing in the church should be used as 2487 02:38:22.440 --> 02:38:24.799 a weapon against another person. A weap against a weapon 2488 02:38:24.840 --> 02:38:27.559 against evil, yes, but not against people, and not against 2489 02:38:27.600 --> 02:38:29.760 people who do evil things. Even I mean, that's the 2490 02:38:30.079 --> 02:38:33.719 idea is yes, yeah, bad ideas, Yeah, ideas, but not people, 2491 02:38:33.879 --> 02:38:36.959 not an individual. Yeah, And unfortunately what happens is it 2492 02:38:37.079 --> 02:38:40.040 becomes an attack on people calling in from the two 2493 02:38:40.280 --> 02:38:43.520 oh eight area code, which covers the state of Idaho. 2494 02:38:43.600 --> 02:38:45.959 I believe, Hello, you are on the air with Vestiges 2495 02:38:45.959 --> 02:38:46.440 after dark. 2496 02:38:48.040 --> 02:38:51.399 Hi, and Jimmy, I just had to call in, Paula. 2497 02:38:52.680 --> 02:38:54.600 You doing Yeah, I'm. 2498 02:38:54.520 --> 02:38:56.760 Not since Bell got in on it. Father Chris is 2499 02:38:56.879 --> 02:38:58.120 cracking me up over here. 2500 02:39:01.040 --> 02:39:04.559 Yeah, he's uh, he's a regular comedian for us. 2501 02:39:06.559 --> 02:39:09.319 Yeah, he's really. I just kind of wanted to make 2502 02:39:09.360 --> 02:39:11.719 a comment because I feel like, you know, when I 2503 02:39:11.799 --> 02:39:14.680 am biased. I mean, I'll admit it, I'm biased towards 2504 02:39:14.760 --> 02:39:18.639 this church, but I am very faithful with the local 2505 02:39:18.719 --> 02:39:21.120 church that we go to. And I think that one 2506 02:39:21.159 --> 02:39:23.840 of the difficulties that my son and my husband and 2507 02:39:23.879 --> 02:39:26.520 I have had in serving and being a part of 2508 02:39:26.639 --> 02:39:29.239 the local church here is when you talk to them 2509 02:39:29.280 --> 02:39:32.680 and you try to explain, you know, for instance, you 2510 02:39:32.840 --> 02:39:35.280 all know and for now the people listening, you know, 2511 02:39:35.360 --> 02:39:37.760 we are planning on a trip with Moosh to come 2512 02:39:37.840 --> 02:39:40.799 out and visit the retreat center and meet y'all in 2513 02:39:40.920 --> 02:39:44.799 person and and be able to attend a mask. 2514 02:39:44.959 --> 02:39:49.760 I mean, Jamie, he's. 2515 02:39:49.639 --> 02:39:51.799 Making more making jokes there. 2516 02:39:53.559 --> 02:39:54.159 Now I'm a. 2517 02:39:54.239 --> 02:40:01.440 Texted Now, Father Chris that idels in the past, that's right, 2518 02:40:01.559 --> 02:40:06.760 brings barbecue, yeah, no. 2519 02:40:07.000 --> 02:40:09.120 No scoreworms though, oh yeah, I don't. 2520 02:40:09.559 --> 02:40:10.280 Don't bring that with you. 2521 02:40:14.440 --> 02:40:17.959 But people, I mean, Jamie's right, people think we're nuts. 2522 02:40:18.559 --> 02:40:20.360 And you know, they'll say, well, that sounds like a 2523 02:40:20.399 --> 02:40:22.399 coal And I always think, like it's a bad thing. 2524 02:40:22.639 --> 02:40:24.360 You're saying it like it's a bad thing if this 2525 02:40:24.600 --> 02:40:27.239 is if this is what that is to you, then 2526 02:40:27.719 --> 02:40:29.799 but if you you hit it on the nail on 2527 02:40:29.840 --> 02:40:31.479 the head. I just wanted to make this point to 2528 02:40:31.600 --> 02:40:35.319 the audience this church, and I'm not I mean, Father 2529 02:40:35.440 --> 02:40:37.319 Chris loses me. I feel like dummer than a door 2530 02:40:37.440 --> 02:40:41.159 nail sometimes when he's speaking. But I'm always in awe of. 2531 02:40:44.040 --> 02:40:44.799 What I learned. 2532 02:40:45.200 --> 02:40:48.159 This church is more of an intellectual church. It wasn't 2533 02:40:48.280 --> 02:40:53.559 until this church that I understood what I'm doing, all 2534 02:40:53.639 --> 02:41:00.479 of the processes, the sacraments, all of those things, that 2535 02:41:00.760 --> 02:41:03.479 what they mean. And I noticed that in my sense 2536 02:41:03.520 --> 02:41:06.159 of the all the time, He's like, mom, people don't 2537 02:41:06.239 --> 02:41:08.440 know what they're doing. And then they try to defend it, 2538 02:41:09.680 --> 02:41:11.639 and then they end up in in argument and we're 2539 02:41:11.719 --> 02:41:14.799 just looking at them like because I don't argue. 2540 02:41:15.319 --> 02:41:18.280 I know, I think I think you've hit the nail 2541 02:41:18.360 --> 02:41:18.840 on the head. 2542 02:41:19.000 --> 02:41:23.440 And look, let me help you synthesize it in terms 2543 02:41:23.479 --> 02:41:26.719 of the local you know, your local parish and the 2544 02:41:26.840 --> 02:41:31.600 church at rit large. The church has different places for 2545 02:41:31.760 --> 02:41:36.959 different purposes. So like the parish church, this is one 2546 02:41:37.000 --> 02:41:40.520 of the weaknesses, right. You know, if what we expect 2547 02:41:40.600 --> 02:41:42.360 is to go to our parish church on Sunday, and 2548 02:41:42.440 --> 02:41:46.639 I ran parish churches for years, okay, If what we 2549 02:41:46.760 --> 02:41:50.520 expect is to go to Mass on Sunday, Saturday night 2550 02:41:50.680 --> 02:41:54.040 or Sunday and receive everything we need to know about 2551 02:41:54.079 --> 02:41:58.280 the faith, then we It's the equivalent of going to 2552 02:41:58.479 --> 02:42:01.040 Sunday school expected to get university degree. 2553 02:42:01.959 --> 02:42:05.319 It's not. It's not for that purpose. The purpose of 2554 02:42:05.639 --> 02:42:08.040 the of the parish Mass is actually. 2555 02:42:07.760 --> 02:42:11.879 To meet our obligations to God, to worship, to receive 2556 02:42:12.000 --> 02:42:15.000 us the Holy Communion and all of that. 2557 02:42:15.680 --> 02:42:18.159 We're not. It's not the finishing school for Christianity. 2558 02:42:18.239 --> 02:42:21.639 And the problem is we live in a very reduced 2559 02:42:22.440

--> 02:42:24.879 period of the church's life, especially. 2560 02:42:24.520 --> 02:42:26.719 In the West, where we've allowed so many things to 2561 02:42:26.799 --> 02:42:27.239 take over. 2562 02:42:28.440 --> 02:42:31.399 Lots of studies have shown that people have far more 2563 02:42:31.479 --> 02:42:34.520 spare time in medieval times when they were serfs than 2564 02:42:34.559 --> 02:42:36.760 we do today because they've got all the Holy days 2565 02:42:36.799 --> 02:42:39.600 off right, and they would have had to turn away 2566 02:42:39.600 --> 02:42:43.120 from work to learn. And so and the purpose of universities, 2567 02:42:43.159 --> 02:42:45.399 by the way, was in fact to do what we're 2568 02:42:45.440 --> 02:42:48.200 doing here. That was the purpose of the university was 2569 02:42:48.239 --> 02:42:52.040 to allow those men, let's be honest, men who had 2570 02:42:52.079 --> 02:42:56.040 the capacity, the ability, the support in order to deepen 2571 02:42:56.520 --> 02:42:59.319 knowledge of the faith, which is not the same as narcicism, 2572 02:43:00.520 --> 02:43:05.000 but to understand the revealed faith. That's what universities were for. 2573 02:43:05.440 --> 02:43:09.799 And now all of that is essentially lost. And so 2574 02:43:09.959 --> 02:43:13.719 we have podcasts that are backfielding. Robert Baron, Bishop Robert 2575 02:43:13.760 --> 02:43:15.479 Barroon was onto this a long time ago. He set 2576 02:43:15.559 --> 02:43:19.000 up Word of Fire when podcasts were not common. 2577 02:43:19.799 --> 02:43:20.079 And so. 2578 02:43:21.719 --> 02:43:23.879 Now the church writ large, you know, you know, the 2579 02:43:23.959 --> 02:43:27.200 holy see the magisterium. They're not there to have the 2580 02:43:27.319 --> 02:43:30.239 personal interaction with you. So they're there to set the 2581 02:43:30.319 --> 02:43:32.840 sort of I would say they're very low bar for 2582 02:43:32.959 --> 02:43:35.680 the teachings of the church, you know, the creeds, how 2583 02:43:35.760 --> 02:43:39.440 to respond to the macro social movements that go on, 2584 02:43:40.040 --> 02:43:43.319 and you get that generally through the letters of the 2585 02:43:43.399 --> 02:43:47.879 popes and the like. So the church exists at different 2586 02:43:48.440 --> 02:43:52.719 levels for different purposes. And the sort of intellectual engagement 2587 02:43:52.760 --> 02:43:55.200 that I think you're valuing in what goes on here, 2588 02:43:56.760 --> 02:43:58.799 maybe the movement in the life of the church is 2589 02:43:58.879 --> 02:44:02.200 that that takes place on podcasts and on you know, 2590 02:44:02.399 --> 02:44:04.600 in book groups and in study groups that you know, 2591 02:44:04.920 --> 02:44:08.120 when I ran churches, I was keen to set up 2592 02:44:08.520 --> 02:44:12.440 cell groups so people could meet, you know, and not 2593 02:44:12.559 --> 02:44:13.440 everyone has to. 2594 02:44:13.479 --> 02:44:15.879 Be a university professor. 2595 02:44:17.079 --> 02:44:19.600 You know, you have groups where you can sort of 2596 02:44:19.879 --> 02:44:22.440 grow and deepen in not just in faith in terms 2597 02:44:22.479 --> 02:44:26.639 of the esoteric practice, but also in the knowledge in 2598 02:44:26.680 --> 02:44:30.040 fact knowing what the church has distilled over the ages. 2599 02:44:30.159 --> 02:44:32.680 So you know, it's asking a lot of a local 2600 02:44:32.799 --> 02:44:35.440 church to be able to do all of that. And look, 2601 02:44:35.920 --> 02:44:38.360 the truth is that churches are under resourced with with 2602 02:44:38.479 --> 02:44:41.319 the people that fill them. And so if we just 2603 02:44:41.399 --> 02:44:43.680 go and we're passive receivers and sit on our bottoms 2604 02:44:43.680 --> 02:44:46.639 on Sunday expecting all this to be downloaded, like with 2605 02:44:46.799 --> 02:44:50.319 the board waiting for the for the nanopros to be injected, 2606 02:44:50.360 --> 02:44:51.559 and we can all become. 2607 02:44:51.360 --> 02:44:51.760 Aware of it. 2608 02:44:52.000 --> 02:44:55.639 I think another part of the issue All is speaking to, 2609 02:44:56.159 --> 02:45:05.000 you know, is that we Christianity is a very complex religion. 2610 02:45:05.159 --> 02:45:10.120 It's extremely, far more complex than I think the average 2611 02:45:10.159 --> 02:45:14.360 person can even begin to fathom. And that includes largely 2612 02:45:14.680 --> 02:45:18.959 even those people who consider themselves good Christians and everything else. 2613 02:45:19.479 --> 02:45:22.440 I don't think the average Christian can even begin to 2614 02:45:22.520 --> 02:45:26.559 fathom how complex the religion is that they are practicing, 2615 02:45:26.639 --> 02:45:28.559 even when they don't think they're practicing a religion because 2616 02:45:28.559 --> 02:45:31.120 they're like, oh, I'm not religious, I'm spiritual, I believe 2617 02:45:31.120 --> 02:45:33.239 in the Bible. I'm a Bible Christian. It's like, well, no, 2618 02:45:33.319 --> 02:45:36.239 that's a religion. It's Christianity is a religion. So you're 2619 02:45:36.280 --> 02:45:38.520 just playing a semantics game to create a fight, which 2620 02:45:38.559 --> 02:45:41.120 is really anti intellectual in my opinion. But you know, 2621 02:45:41.200 --> 02:45:46.559 that's another story. My issue here is that in times past, 2622 02:45:46.959 --> 02:45:50.399 people spent a great deal more time on understanding these 2623 02:45:50.479 --> 02:45:54.479 things because they took them far more seriously. So families 2624 02:45:54.639 --> 02:45:57.760 like yours that still take them seriously will have a 2625 02:45:57.840 --> 02:46:00.639 hard time finding other people that take the seriously so 2626 02:46:00.760 --> 02:46:03.159 that you can share these ideas and have these kinds 2627 02:46:03.200 --> 02:46:05.760 of discussions. Because there's just not a whole lot of 2628 02:46:05.799 --> 02:46:08.040 people out there

that care enough, and that includes the 2629 02:46:08.079 --> 02:46:11.200 so called Christians that go to church every Sunday. I 2630 02:46:11.760 --> 02:46:14.840 find that there is real it's really Again, this is 2631 02:46:14.920 --> 02:46:16.479 part of what we were talking about earlier with the 2632 02:46:16.600 --> 02:46:21.000 legalism aspects that can sometimes creep into the Western Church. 2633 02:46:21.040 --> 02:46:22.840 It happens in the East too, in different ways, but 2634 02:46:23.079 --> 02:46:26.120 it's it's very prevalent in the West. Is that they 2635 02:46:26.399 --> 02:46:29.280 are just as long as they meet their obligations, they're 2636 02:46:29.280 --> 02:46:30.920 not going to go to Hell. That's all they care about. 2637 02:46:31.280 --> 02:46:33.600 And that's the worst reason for being a Christian is 2638 02:46:33.639 --> 02:46:35.520 that you're you don't want to go to Hell. That 2639 02:46:35.639 --> 02:46:37.920 that should be the given. I mean, that's just a given. 2640 02:46:38.079 --> 02:46:41.040 What you really should be concerned with is how do 2641 02:46:41.239 --> 02:46:44.879 you approach the perfection that's your call to that you 2642 02:46:45.000 --> 02:46:48.680 were created to be And how is this achieved by 2643 02:46:48.920 --> 02:46:51.319 finding God? Not just believing in them, but finding them 2644 02:46:51.360 --> 02:46:53.159 and interacting with Him, experience them, so you don't have 2645 02:46:53.200 --> 02:46:55.920 to worry so much about maybe doesn't exist. You know, 2646 02:46:56.239 --> 02:46:57.879 I need a lot more faith then, I guess because 2647 02:46:58.000 --> 02:47:00.200 I'm having trouble. Well, you wouldn't have trouble if you 2648 02:47:00.280 --> 02:47:02.360 had those experiences, it's just you don't ever get to 2649 02:47:02.440 --> 02:47:04.799 the point where you allow yourself to have them. So 2650 02:47:04.959 --> 02:47:08.040 for families like yours that care about these things, you're 2651 02:47:08.079 --> 02:47:10.079 gonna feel like you're living in a vacuum, you know, 2652 02:47:10.159 --> 02:47:12.719 where there's just nothing nowhere. I mean, it's just an 2653 02:47:12.719 --> 02:47:15.159 abyss of people that just don't care, and no one 2654 02:47:15.239 --> 02:47:17.479 knows how to talk about it. And as Father Chris said, 2655 02:47:17.520 --> 02:47:20.719 the church rarely ever has the resources to be able 2656 02:47:20.760 --> 02:47:26.520 to provide the kind of stimulation education, you know, what 2657 02:47:26.719 --> 02:47:29.319 is necessary to truly understand the complexity of the faith, 2658 02:47:29.399 --> 02:47:31.959 which in a lot of ways requires almost more than 2659 02:47:32.040 --> 02:47:36.200 a than a doctorate degree. I mean, you almost need 2660 02:47:36.280 --> 02:47:41.680 to doctorates just to get started in this kind of discipline. 2661 02:47:42.159 --> 02:47:45.959 And that doesn't bode well for you know, casual conversation 2662 02:47:46.200 --> 02:47:48.360 and discussion. And then of course that's not to mention 2663 02:47:48.479 --> 02:47:50.079 that with social media, you have a bunch of people 2664 02:47:50.120 --> 02:47:53.559 now talking about things that they think they understand and 2665 02:47:53.639 --> 02:47:56.239 teaching as if their authorities when they're not crueless and 2666 02:47:56.280 --> 02:47:58.479 they're clueless. And you see that, and that's the. 2667 02:48:00.000 --> 02:48:03.079 People who like, oh yeah, it's all nonsense, Like why 2668 02:48:03.079 --> 02:48:04.280 are you interacting with us? 2669 02:48:04.319 --> 02:48:04.479 Then? 2670 02:48:04.760 --> 02:48:05.479 Why are you watching? 2671 02:48:07.680 --> 02:48:10.120 I asked that question. I asked that question. Last week. 2672 02:48:10.239 --> 02:48:12.479 Somebody said something hostile about one of the shorts on 2673 02:48:12.559 --> 02:48:15.520 one of the episodes we did recently, and I said, 2674 02:48:15.760 --> 02:48:18.760 I said, you know, why are you They had this 2675 02:48:18.959 --> 02:48:23.479 long paragraph about all these things that Catholicism got wrong, 2676 02:48:23.639 --> 02:48:27.639 and how you know the Pope's not this and Jesus 2677 02:48:27.760 --> 02:48:29.879 is not that, and and and and and I came 2678 02:48:29.920 --> 02:48:32.479 back and I said, if you feel this way, why 2679 02:48:32.520 --> 02:48:37.280 are you commenting on a Catholic channel about a Catholic 2680 02:48:37.479 --> 02:48:45.559 show with this attitude? And if you were unless yeah, yeah, exactly, 2681 02:48:45.719 --> 02:48:48.040 unless you were. Now this is what I said. I said, 2682 02:48:48.079 --> 02:48:51.000 it just like this, unless you're some kind of authority 2683 02:48:51.040 --> 02:48:53.120 in religion, which I seriously doubt, because you wouldn't be 2684 02:48:53.120 --> 02:48:55.879 presenting like an asshole like you are right now. And 2685 02:48:56.000 --> 02:48:58.280 that's exactly how I said it to him. You know, 2686 02:48:58.360 --> 02:49:00.399 I don't I don't pull punches with that. The thing, 2687 02:49:00.440 --> 02:49:02.440 because if you're going to come to my home and 2688 02:49:02.600 --> 02:49:04.360 and piss all over the floors, well we're gonna have 2689 02:49:04.440 --> 02:49:06.000 some words about that, and they're not going to be 2690 02:49:06.120 --> 02:49:08.639 kind words, because you've already set the stage for what 2691 02:49:08.799 --> 02:49:11.239 you want. The kind of interaction you're looking for. So 2692 02:49:11.520 --> 02:49:14.719 all I want to know is why, because clearly you're 2693 02:49:14.799 --> 02:49:18.280 no authority. Nobody here cares about what you have to say. 2694 02:49:18.639 --> 02:49:21.440 So why do you watch this channel and leave a 2695 02:49:21.520 --> 02:49:24.639 comment that's this long on it? It doesn't matter to 2696 02:49:24.719 --> 02:49:28.520 anybody here, and and you're no one, you know, so 2697

02:49:28.719 --> 02:49:29.079 just move on. 2698 02:49:29.440 --> 02:49:32.399 These are people that are looking for answers to questions 2699 02:49:32.440 --> 02:49:37.000 they have that they've never gotten an answer that that's 2700 02:49:37.040 --> 02:49:39.959 satisfied what they think it should be. Well, you said, 2701 02:49:40.639 --> 02:49:43.079 and like I said the other day, I said, he's 2702 02:49:43.120 --> 02:49:45.000 been hurt and he's projecting. 2703 02:49:45.440 --> 02:49:49.239 And that's exactly what they cannot get an answer, Jamie, 2704 02:49:49.399 --> 02:49:50.920 because they don't want it. 2705 02:49:51.239 --> 02:49:53.040 They don't want to an answer. 2706 02:49:53.239 --> 02:49:56.840 Would Well, if you if you decide when you're free falling, 2707 02:49:56.920 --> 02:49:59.600 you can be whatever you know, you can throw things 2708 02:49:59.639 --> 02:50:01.959 out right and center. If you arrive at something, you 2709 02:50:02.040 --> 02:50:05.040 have to defend something. And so I have this all 2710 02:50:05.159 --> 02:50:07.799 the time, you know, with people on Twitter and what 2711 02:50:07.920 --> 02:50:08.159 have you. 2712 02:50:08.680 --> 02:50:12.399 Oh, you believe this, you believe that in what the church? 2713 02:50:12.719 --> 02:50:15.319 And I'm like, you're only able to do that because 2714 02:50:15.319 --> 02:50:16.440 we say what we believe. 2715 02:50:17.239 --> 02:50:20.040 You know, you can you can operate in the in 2716 02:50:20.159 --> 02:50:24.520 what you believe to be, this this floating nothing nurse. 2717 02:50:24.559 --> 02:50:26.879 But in fact it is entirely dependent upon the Christian 2718 02:50:26.920 --> 02:50:29.040 gospel because you're a Western human being. 2719 02:50:29.520 --> 02:50:33.159 But but you take ownership of nothing. 2720 02:50:33.760 --> 02:50:37.280 So I can't criticize your moral structure because you claim 2721 02:50:37.840 --> 02:50:38.600 you don't claim one. 2722 02:50:39.159 --> 02:50:42.319 Right now, everyone does have a moral. 2723 02:50:42.079 --> 02:50:45.040 Structure, and eventually, if you actually engage with a human 2724 02:50:45.120 --> 02:50:48.680 being genuinely, it would reveal itself. But they're not being 2725 02:50:48.760 --> 02:50:51.399 genuine you know. And that's why I think, no, no, no, 2726 02:50:51.600 --> 02:50:54.639 I'm not. I'm not going to entertain you by letting 2727 02:50:54.680 --> 02:50:57.639 you watch me. You a bone, no, thanks, have your 2728 02:50:57.680 --> 02:50:58.239 bone back. 2729 02:50:58.399 --> 02:50:59.600 I don't want it, you know. 2730 02:50:59.719 --> 02:50:59.840 Good. 2731 02:51:00.680 --> 02:51:04.120 It's interesting that Paula you said, you know, you asked 2732 02:51:04.280 --> 02:51:06.760 or leave this comment here, because I would say that 2733 02:51:06.840 --> 02:51:09.600 both April and Jamie both found this church and come 2734 02:51:09.639 --> 02:51:11.319 to came to this church and have stayed with this 2735 02:51:11.479 --> 02:51:14.879 church for the exact same reasons that they're being nourished 2736 02:51:15.479 --> 02:51:20.559 by the the, the the the the understanding, not so 2737 02:51:20.680 --> 02:51:23.719 much the the not so much the data points. It's 2738 02:51:23.719 --> 02:51:25.399 not so much about the data points. What it is 2739 02:51:26.239 --> 02:51:30.719 is that you're interested in the understanding, which is that 2740 02:51:30.959 --> 02:51:33.440 third part of the storiology that I went through in 2741 02:51:33.479 --> 02:51:35.879 the last hour when I was talking about faith works 2742 02:51:35.920 --> 02:51:38.840 and epigosis that we need, we need to have an 2743 02:51:38.959 --> 02:51:43.399 experiential understanding. I'm not talking about noses and secret knowledge, 2744 02:51:43.520 --> 02:51:45.799 not that shit. I'm talking about And I. 2745 02:51:45.879 --> 02:51:48.559 Think all churches have failed at that. They have they 2746 02:51:48.600 --> 02:51:49.319 have not kept up. 2747 02:51:49.520 --> 02:51:51.360 And it's ironic that, you know, the sort of the 2748 02:51:51.440 --> 02:51:57.639 prostant Reformation happens in in an intellectual environment. Like you know, 2749 02:51:58.319 --> 02:52:00.600 whether they're right or wrong, we can debate, but you know, 2750 02:52:00.799 --> 02:52:04.520 Luther Calvin Zingli that these are characters who. 2751 02:52:05.079 --> 02:52:08.600 Were intellectually engaged in faith. 2752 02:52:08.760 --> 02:52:12.479 Right, Yes, I think some are more right than others, 2753 02:52:12.559 --> 02:52:15.120 but whatever, you know, but this was an intellectual pursuit 2754 02:52:15.200 --> 02:52:18.200 the printing press, read the Bible, study the scriptures. That 2755 02:52:18.360 --> 02:52:20.680 the whole essence, if you like, of the of the 2756 02:52:20.760 --> 02:52:26.879 Reformation was about a greater intellectual engagement with the faith. 2757 02:52:29.360 --> 02:52:31.920 And what's so weird is that? 2758 02:52:32.079 --> 02:52:34.719 Since not weird because I think I can explain it, 2759 02:52:34.760 --> 02:52:37.680 but I've got time now, but I'm writing. 2760 02:52:37.399 --> 02:52:37.959 A book about it. 2761 02:52:38.479 --> 02:52:41.079 But since since the sixties, I mean, you know, people 2762 02:52:41.159 --> 02:52:43.639 blowing the boomers is you know, it coincides with the 2763 02:52:43.719 --> 02:52:46.760 nineteen sixties. That's when you have the Second Lastic Council. 2764 02:52:46.959 --> 02:52:50.200 It's also when you get the charismatic and emotionalist movements 2765 02:52:50.280 --> 02:52:53.959 within Protestant churches. And ironically we end up with this 2766 02:52:54.079 --> 02:52:57.760 sort of anti intellectual approach to faith. And I think 2767 02:52:57.959 --> 02:53:02.280 that's what's left a massive hole for people who actually 2768 02:53:02.920 --> 02:53:05.479 want to engage in what the church used to promote, 2769

02:53:05.479 --> 02:53:07.719 which is faith seeking, understanding. 2770 02:53:08.840 --> 02:53:12.959 And so and that's what we're engaged in here. And 2771 02:53:13.079 --> 02:53:14.479 so of course it's going to. 2772 02:53:14.440 --> 02:53:17.399 Attract people who are intellectually curious. And it's not about 2773 02:53:17.520 --> 02:53:19.319 you know, you've got to have an IQ above one 2774 02:53:19.360 --> 02:53:22.360 hundred and fifty to be, you know, to engage with this. 2775 02:53:22.520 --> 02:53:24.719 I mean, thank God, otherwise I wouldn't be here. But 2776 02:53:25.760 --> 02:53:29.000 you know, it's so it's not about that. It's not 2777 02:53:29.079 --> 02:53:32.079 about how many degrees you've got. It's about the intellectual 2778 02:53:32.200 --> 02:53:36.079 curiosity that says I want to know more about these things. 2779 02:53:37.040 --> 02:53:39.280 I would encourage you, Paula, by the way, to talk 2780 02:53:39.319 --> 02:53:41.879 to your parish priest about it. I'd say, look, you know, 2781 02:53:42.520 --> 02:53:47.559 I gain loads of stuff from you know, understanding more 2782 02:53:47.600 --> 02:53:51.399 deeply the intellectual tradition of the church, because you know, 2783 02:53:51.799 --> 02:53:54.600 a parish priest's job is impossible. What I used to 2784 02:53:54.680 --> 02:53:59.239 try to do was plan ahead and divide homilies over 2785 02:53:59.319 --> 02:54:03.959 the upcoming weeks and think, right, okay, I've got to 2786 02:54:04.000 --> 02:54:07.520 have some things that appeal to the PhDs in my congregation, 2787 02:54:07.600 --> 02:54:10.799 which I had. I've got to have something that appeals 2788 02:54:10.879 --> 02:54:13.680 to you know, the mums, the dads like you know, 2789 02:54:13.799 --> 02:54:16.920 you try and think who is here? The children, you know, 2790 02:54:17.239 --> 02:54:20.239 and something you can't do it in every homily. I 2791 02:54:20.319 --> 02:54:21.879 think it's a bad idea to have a homley that 2792 02:54:21.920 --> 02:54:23.799 tries to do all of that. But what you can 2793 02:54:23.879 --> 02:54:27.000 do is plan over a cycle to say, actually, do 2794 02:54:27.000 --> 02:54:29.239 you know what, Maybe this hombley is going to go 2795 02:54:29.280 --> 02:54:31.760 over the heads of some people and that's okay. Our 2796 02:54:31.840 --> 02:54:35.040 parish priest you know here does a really good job 2797 02:54:35.079 --> 02:54:37.159 of that. Actually, you're going to talk about some difficult words. 2798 02:54:37.200 --> 02:54:39.840 But sometimes when a new thing's invented in the like 2799 02:54:39.879 --> 02:54:43.040 when God invents a new thing in life, we don't 2800 02:54:43.079 --> 02:54:44.719 have any other words for it. So we're just going 2801 02:54:44.760 --> 02:54:47.559 to have to The church invents new words, and the 2802 02:54:47.639 --> 02:54:49.479 best thing is for us to try and explain what 2803 02:54:49.559 --> 02:54:53.559 those words mean. You know, It's an impossible job, and 2804 02:54:53.760 --> 02:54:56.319 that's worthy of a conversation. That's the sort of thing 2805 02:54:56.399 --> 02:54:59.920 parochial councils should be doing. You know, let's talk about 2806 02:55:00.040 --> 02:55:03.920 how we can try and hit as many people as possible. 2807 02:55:04.559 --> 02:55:06.719 And in a lot of ways. I would say that 2808 02:55:06.920 --> 02:55:10.239 the Church of Rome acts more like a Gnostic church 2809 02:55:10.360 --> 02:55:12.840 than than we do on our worst day. I mean, 2810 02:55:12.920 --> 02:55:15.920 they really do, because it's so so much of the 2811 02:55:16.000 --> 02:55:19.040 wisdom is is really held into the cloister. There is 2812 02:55:19.079 --> 02:55:21.600 an underlying attitude amongst many of them, at least when 2813 02:55:21.639 --> 02:55:25.360 I was involved in it many decades ago. But you know, 2814 02:55:25.440 --> 02:55:29.000 I do remember there was an underlying attitude that the 2815 02:55:29.040 --> 02:55:31.840 common people don't understand, will never understand that it's just 2816 02:55:31.879 --> 02:55:33.799 gonna be confusing. Just to keep it simple, keep it. 2817 02:55:34.520 --> 02:55:36.799 I'm going to withhold that. So we've got special stuff. 2818 02:55:37.040 --> 02:55:38.879 It could be that too, I mean, sometimes that is 2819 02:55:38.920 --> 02:55:43.959 the motive. I was shocked at how different, Yeah, I 2820 02:55:44.120 --> 02:55:45.959 was shocked at how different the church was from the 2821 02:55:46.040 --> 02:55:48.040 lens of the monastery versus what I was used to 2822 02:55:48.120 --> 02:55:50.079 in the diocese, in prison of the seminaris. It's a 2823 02:55:50.159 --> 02:55:54.319 very different experience. Even in the religious orders and the 2824 02:55:54.639 --> 02:55:57.239 you know that do active work. It was it was 2825 02:55:57.360 --> 02:56:00.600 still not like what it was in the Floisters, so 2826 02:56:01.159 --> 02:56:03.719 very different type of experience and it leads to a 2827 02:56:03.799 --> 02:56:08.239 lot of well different a different range of attitude. But 2828 02:56:08.680 --> 02:56:11.120 I want to say that a gift to her parish. 2829 02:56:11.159 --> 02:56:11.520 I really do. 2830 02:56:11.680 --> 02:56:13.879 I think so. I mean, Paula, you know, I mean 2831 02:56:14.399 --> 02:56:17.399 just in a way God calls us, God calls us 2832 02:56:17.680 --> 02:56:20.200 to go do strange things, and this might be yours. 2833 02:56:22.079 --> 02:56:23.760 But I want to thank you Paula for calling in. 2834 02:56:23.959 --> 02:56:27.920 Father Chris, thank you, April, thank you Jamie, thank you Moosh, 2835 02:56:28.000 --> 02:56:30.520 thank you also for calling in, and for all of 2836 02:56:30.600 --> 02:56:33.799 you that joined us this evening on the season finale 2837 02:56:33.920 --> 02:56:37.959 of Vestiges after Dark. It's been a wild ride this season, 2838 02:56:38.079 --> 02:56:41.719 right and next season we will, you know, try to 2839 02:56:41.799 --> 02:56:45.399 keep it as entertaining. April and Brandon will be working 2840 02:56:46.239 --> 02:56:49.200 to get some new guests for you in the fall. 2841 02:56:49.920 --> 02:56:53.319 This summer will have two specials as usual that will 2842 02:56:53.360 --> 02:56:56.040 be on one in July and one in August. The 2843 02:56:56.120 --> 02:56:58.680 next one, the next show, will air July twenty first, 2844 02:56:59.000 --> 02:57:02.319 where we will cover our next part of this theological 2845 02:57:02.399 --> 02:57:06.000 series on the independent Sacramental movement, and you'll understand a 2846 02:57:06.000 --> 02:57:08.280 little more about how validity works, what it means to 2847 02:57:08.360 --> 02:57:11.200 be valid but not lisicit, and why being list it 2848 02:57:11.280 --> 02:57:13.920 doesn't matter as much as being valid. That's really the 2849 02:57:14.000 --> 02:57:16.200 basis for the old Catholic Church, and you're going to 2850 02:57:16.280 --> 02:57:18.440 learn about that a lot. I'm probably more than you 2851 02:57:18.520 --> 02:57:20.600 want to know in July, so make sure you tune 2852 02:57:20.600 --> 02:57:22.479 into that. If you think I'm a fake bishop, if 2853 02:57:22.520 --> 02:57:25.680 you think Father Chris is a fake priest, well then 2854 02:57:25.719 --> 02:57:28.079 you need to tune in because you'll learn that you're 2855 02:57:28.120 --> 02:57:31.479 foolish and you're stupid. Will make you less stupid by 2856 02:57:31.520 --> 02:57:33.920 watching this show. Okay, so it doesn't mean that stupid 2857 02:57:33.959 --> 02:57:36.000 can't be fixed. I might insult you, I might call 2858 02:57:36.040 --> 02:57:38.319 you stupid, but I only say it with the understanding 2859 02:57:38.360 --> 02:57:42.959 that now that you know, you can do something about it. Okay, anyway, 2860 02:57:43.360 --> 02:57:46.000 that's what's coming up this summer. Okay. I want to 2861 02:57:46.079 --> 02:57:48.879 thank everyone again for being with us this entire season. 2862 02:57:49.239 --> 02:57:52.000 But until next time, I'll see you out there, and 2863 02:57:52.040 --> 02:57:53.399 the ether God bless all of you. 2864 02:57:53.559 --> 02:57:54.760 Stay safe. Every Buddy. 2865 02:58:47.200 --> 02:58:55.040 Studs shows. 2866 02:58:56.040 --> 02:59:05.440 Stubless is the US stiversial established, Standish is the West 2867 02:59:05.559 --> 02:59:07.479 of Telenson is the best