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TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah, that's just finding scouts. I don't know. I mean, wisdom, suppose, and old friends. Like, speaking of friends, like just this week when I was in the city, my pal Jeremy Deprez called me up and he's like, I'm in from Houston, like, let's hang out. And I was like, cool, I'm in the city, like, let's meet up. And so we met up and we talked about like his life in Houston and teaching. And he started to really do a lot of teaching. And I've been teaching for like a long time. Gina Beavers: What? Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: And so we really kicked around ideas of pedagogy and teaching drawing and strategies of teaching painting and that kind of like wisdom of having taught now for like 15 some years, know, like that's kind of something that comes with age is just having knowledge to impart to people that, you know, I think that has value. Gina Beavers: Hmm Totally, that's really satisfying to feel like, I actually know some things. Like, I put in the time, you know, and effort. Yeah, for sure. TIMOTHY HULL: And that's part of this podcast too, I think is like between you and I, have, you know, many years of wisdom of being artists and being, you know, creative people or educators. And so that we want to kind of talk about that and bring that into the dial. Gina Beavers: Yeah. Well, I feel like does it, I don't know if it translates. I don't know as an artist, do you feel more, it's like, what have I learned? ⁓ I feel like every time I feel like I've learned something in the art world though, it like, everything changes and I can't keep up. I don't know. It's just kind of. TIMOTHY HULL: ⁓ geez, geez. I mean, I was just saying an analogy to someone the other day that being in the art world and being an artist is sort of like being in a pit and the ground is loose and you're trying to like climb up out of it. And every time you sort of get a little higher, the ground seems to get like more rubble and like you can't, like you almost have like, but eventually you might get up to the top by creating so much rubble that you sort of stand on the rubble. But it sort of feels like a Sisyphusian task, as you're right. Like the art world, how you play the game or the way the game is or the way it's structured is kind of shifting and changing all the time. Gina Beavers: All the time, like you kind of have to stay a little nimble or like a little ready to throw out. I don't know, and I'm not talking about necessarily even your work, but just like the way that you operate within like the system and how it operates and what, I don't know. It's just, it seems. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah. I mean, there's many artists also at this time of their life in like middle age or like mid career who are like, you know what, fuck it, I'm throwing in the towel. Like this is like too much, I've worked too hard, I see no results. Like, you know, and that's kind of shocking. something you and I talked about months ago is like when Frances Stark had this like Instagram meltdown about how she had like worked so hard and given so much. But the art world is like, Gina Beavers: ⁓ huh. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: screwed her over or she feels left out or lost and I'm like wait a minute you show with Barbara Gladstone and you have this feeling like then we're all like them what Gina Beavers: Yeah, yeah. No, no. Yeah, no, no, I know. mean, I don't. ⁓ Yeah, and it's tough because the art world is kind of fickle in terms of work that it likes, doesn't like, you know, things kind of come in and go out. And, you know, it can really shower a lot of attention on certain kinds of work and then completely abandon it. You know, like it's I don't know how you how you how are you supposed to function with it? I mean, it's not. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah. Well- Gina Beavers: Definitely crazy making. It's definitely crazy making. TIMOTHY HULL: Well, that's why I've always had, I've always really adopted this philosophy of making art is like chopping wood and carrying water. That's like a Zen poem or like a sort of, or maybe it's from the Daode Qing, I don't remember. But I remember it because I feel like to really stay with it and build your career and build your practice, it is like chopping wood and carrying water. is a... Gina Beavers: Mm-hmm. TIMOTHY HULL: You know, we use the word practice, which is a little overused and kind of tired, but it is like a practice. It's something that you do all the time. It's something that is constructive and you're constructing and you're creating and you're building. But there's also, it has to be like a, almost like a habit to it or else you're gonna get discouraged or you're going to feel depressed or. Gina Beavers: Yeah, you mean a habit for the work itself, yeah. ⁓ TIMOTHY HULL: Well, have it just for like, you know, studio practice, like, oh, I got it. I want to make sure that I'm in the studio, you know, two, three, four days a week from this time to that time. And even if I'm not making anything, or even if I'm not having a big opportunity that I'm still doing something or pushing an idea forward or, know, I always work like I have a big show coming up. Like that is, I've worked that way since the beginning of my career. Gina Beavers: Yeah. No. TIMOTHY HULL: Like I always pretend like, ⁓ I'm gonna be like in the next Whitney, biennium. I better get my ass in gear. Like, ⁓ I'm gonna, any minute, like I'm gonna have some big museum show. So I better like work, you know, on this project. And so I live in a fantasy where any minute, like something could happen. So I always want, I'm not like the artist who only works towards ⁓ a deadline that they've been given. Like I work towards fake deadlines. Gina Beavers: Mm-hmm. I constantly working. Yeah, yeah, no, totally. Well, I think that that I went from having a lot of deadlines to having deadline or having deadlines that were so compressed that it was like no time to think. It was just like to having like, ⁓ I have deadline next year or something like

that. It's like that definitely screwed me up. you know, like definitely my sense of time and how long things would take and what I was going to make. You know, I don't know, it changed everything. Not having. TIMOTHY HULL: But what do you, so what do you do now, like if you don't have like all these like hard and fast constant deadlines, like how are you like finding, you know, do you have to build a strong routine or like, you know, resolutely kind of get into the studio even if you don't want to? Gina Beavers: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, have to, actually had to download an app. So sad, but it's for neurodivergent. It's called Timo, T-I-M-O and it, uh, Oh, really? Oh yeah. didn't know it was Timo. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. No, I had to like, like put myself on this like time thing where it's like, take a snack. Like I had to like, TIMOTHY HULL: ⁓ Timo, that's like a nickname of mine. And it will come in like Timo Teo. Anyway, I invented the app. You Gina Beavers: build in this thing because I do have issues with time. think I have time blindness. I've diagnosed myself, but I think it's like, you don't know how long anything takes. Like something could be five minutes or 10 hours. And it's like, you have no sense of it. Like I'm pretty sure I have. TIMOTHY HULL: Wait, what is time blindness? Like you don't know if like to paint this passage is gonna take five minutes or ten hours you're saying? Gina Beavers: Like, unless I time myself, like unless I know for sure how long things are gonna take, I have a really hard time. I just watched this series of videos on TikTok, this pretty great, like influencer who is like, this is how long it truly takes to clean out your junk drawer. And she sets up a camera and you see her clean up her junk drawer and it's like 31 minutes. Well, in my mind, that takes four hours. And so I'm never gonna do it because it's like. TIMOTHY HULL: but Gina Beavers: You know, it's going to take my entire day. I like, yeah. So that I have just an, and I'll procrastinate things. it's like, ⁓ this whole body of work's due like next, next year or whatever. I'm going to get a late start. Cause I have no idea what, how long time. I don't know. I have a really like a challenge. so I have to be really, yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah. I have the opposite of that, I think. I have an innate ability to know, like if I have a show coming up or if I have to finish a painting, I have some kind of innate ability to just know. Like I never have to set a calendar or a timer. I just know, like, oh, this is gonna take me three days now and I can do it, or it's gonna take me two hours, I can do Are you a digital clock person or like an old fashioned ⁓ visual clock person? Gina Beavers: I don't, I mean, I guess I don't, I think probably digital. don't think it, I remember having like watches, like wearing watches at one point in my life and then being like, this is too stressful. I can't have the, so maybe I'm not like a clock clock. TIMOTHY HULL: Interesting.

So I'm the opposite. So I look at a digital clock and it is totally meaningless to me. I do not know what the digital timeframe means. Like I have to visually see it like spatially on a clock face or else I am lost or else I'm like dead. I like so, so like, and it's the thing I actually ask people a lot. Like I feel like there's two types of sort of minds that Gina Beavers: Okay. Yeah. ⁓ it's... Yeah. Yeah. Aww. TIMOTHY HULL: can read a digital clock and understand what that means spatially. But also people who have to look at the actual spatial, like how far this hand is from this hand, I intuitively then know how much time I have. So I can't, like I have to always wear a watch or have a wall clock because otherwise I'll be way late for something or like mega super. Gina Beavers: ⁓ wow, that's so cool. Yeah, yeah. You've made paintings, right, of clock faces or... Oh, yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: ⁓ yeah, yes, often I put a clock face, usually a swatch into my painting somewhere, either do a big painting of a swatch or a small somewhere because yeah, time, the clock. I mean, also my favorite Culture Club song is Time, Clock of the Heart. Gina Beavers: ⁓ yes. ⁓ okay. ⁓ that's so cool. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's kind of my nemesis. I'm the ultimate procrastinator. I'm the, I'm yeah. So it's crazy. Yeah. The things that I've left to the last minute, like you can't even. No. Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: That's what's great about this podcast for like total opposite. like, ⁓ I don't procrastinate. There's some things to get done and I just do it. I'm just like, very rarely do I procrastinate. Gina Beavers: Yeah, you just do it. ⁓ so yeah, so jealous. So have you been you said you had a really busy week? Have you been able to work? Are you like, has it been too crazy? TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah, I've been working on both painting and drawing here. You know, I'm like, again, like the part of like no procrastinating is, and I get this from my father who was, like I said, an academic and historian and a writer, and he was just always, always, always working all the time. And I feel like that is definitely something I inherited that like I, I can't like, even if crazy shit's going on, I'm like driving to the city or staying in the studio, helping my mom, or like doing this or doing that, or go teaching. I still always am finding time to like be in the studio and like making work. So yes, like I was was painting, I was working on a new drawing that I'm very excited about, very excited about drawing. Gina Beavers: This ⁓ cool. ⁓ I'm so excited. I want to come to your, that's your East Village studio, right? Your drawing studio? Yeah. Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So when I'm in the East Village, which is usually like, like three nights a week, sort of, I'm there. And, and I usually I'm teaching during the day when I'm there, but on a couple of those days, I'm in that studio working on like works on paper stuff. But also that's my time to be in the city and go see shows, do studio visits with other people, have people over. ⁓ So, so it's, it's good. And so I like try to be there as as as I can, you know, I teach in the Bronx, I have this student department in East Village, live upstate, like I'm like, drive, drive, drive. Gina Beavers: Yeah. Right. Totally, totally. Well next time if I'm there like in the evening, try to like come by and see your drawings. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah, well your old neighbor. I live like in your old neighborhood. Your old- Gina Beavers: Yes, I love it. I was just thinking about that neighborhood because I went to see the Pat Olesko show at Sculpture Center and she has these wonderful, well so a lot of her work are these inflatables, like she's sort of a performance artist slash, yeah, they're sort of like installations but she takes them out into the streets. does, it's just amazing. But she has. TIMOTHY HULL: Right, isn't she also like a protest artist too? Gina Beavers: Yeah. It takes them to protest. so you can see that show is really great. Like shows all of her different signs and things from different protests over the years. So some of it is like anti Bush Iraq war, you know, some of it, she even has no Kings, like anti Trump stuff, but in the basement, they have a great series of videos. And a lot of those are like her in costume or her with inflatables outside. And usually the backdrop is like lower East side. or East Village, but like in the eighties. I mean, having lived there, I'm just like hunting the entire time I'm watching these videos. Like, ⁓ my God, that's 9th Street. ⁓ my God, look how crazy it looks. Like it's an open lot. Like it's completely destroyed. it's like unrecognizable to what you see today, you know? ⁓ But yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: Though some things sort of don't change, because I went to NYU in the late 90s, early 2000s, and I took a lot of my classes at the Barney Building, which is in the East Village. And so I spent a lot of time there back at, you know, in that time. And there's still a lot of stuff that's still there. Like there's something about the East Village that as much as it changes, it also really like doesn't change. Gina Beavers: Mm-hmm. No, that's true. And a lot of her videos take place on like Avenue D. So it's like that part of the East Village. Like I remember when I like in the nineties, when I got to New York, they were like, you don't go past Avenue A basically. was like the last night. Yeah. was like Alphabet City, like that part. And that's where we lived. That's where Keith had two businesses. Like, ⁓ he had a wine shop on Avenue C. So it's like, TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah, ⁓ I remember that too. Gina Beavers: I guess when I'm saying East Village, really mean that part of it is totally, totally different. Anyway, I definitely recommend her show. I don't know, it made me think a lot about, I think the show is called Fool Disclosure. ⁓ Fool Disclosure, yeah. And it's, ⁓ this idea of sort of a female fool is pretty rare. You know, this.

TIMOTHY HULL: ⁓ clever, yeah, like the Gina Beavers: historically. ⁓ And I think it's maybe that humor is considered sort of male-dominated field or something, you know, but... TIMOTHY HULL: like the joker, the jester is always sort of a male figure. Gina Beavers: Technically, yeah, I think mostly. So it's just interesting. TIMOTHY HULL: But also if you look at the Rider-Waite tarot deck, the fool, is ostensibly a man, also looks very fey and sort of very feminine. So I've always actually thought that in a way there's something sort of agender or sort of transgender about the fool actually, at least in the tarot deck. Gina Beavers: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, and you can see a lot of influence, and I don't know if there's influence from Lee Bowery and all of these fantastic costumes that she has. They're amazing, and one of them has glass eyeballs that she's just covered with these glass eyes, and they're just endlessly invented, so inventive. But yeah, you do see why, I don't know, the combination of humor. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah. Gina Beavers: and this kind of overt, sometimes sexuality, and the fact that she's taking her work kind of to the streets, that maybe it's... TIMOTHY HULL: Well, I like that she also dresses the part too. Like in any photo that you see of her, like also looks kind of ridiculous and fun. And so that part of her, she's like a living artwork. She sort of reminds me of Erica Magri. I don't know if you know Erica. ⁓ She's Brooklyn artist I've known for like 20 some years. And she also kind of is just like living her art all the time. I feel like there's a ⁓ real tradition of that, which I really. Gina Beavers: Thanks. ⁓ yeah, no shit. Yeah. Uh-huh. No. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, really like that show. It feels like a real breath of fresh air, like seeing that show. ⁓ It's just so different. TIMOTHY HULL: Speaking of a breath of fresh air, and you mentioned it, Lee Bowery. So last year in May, I went to London on a ⁓ CUNY grant to go do some research at the Ashmolean in the British Museum. But what I kind of secretly really went for was the Lee Bowery show at the Tate, at Tate Modern, because it's not traveling to America. And it was probably one of the best shows. like big museum shows I've seen in a decade. ⁓ And it just totally like blew my mind. And I even talked to some other people who were like, yeah, I went to London specifically for that show because it was so highly recommended and so good. And I feel like Lee Bowery is kind of an artist who, know, artist performer who just is sort of perennially amazing. It's like, it still feels really fresh, even though it's like 30 years. Gina Beavers: Wow. See you time. Oh, yeah, always. Yeah, totally. Well, we were talking briefly about drag race. I don't know if you want to, but I feel like there's always at least one, if not multiple people influenced by Lee Bowery. Like the one that I really stands out was Jimbo like a couple years ago. so. Yeah, yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: Ha But they like never really win. Like that's the thing is like even on like we were talking about Project Runway too like even on Project Runway and Drag Queen the people who are really funky and really pushing the envelope like there's appreciation for them but they never really win and that always like pisses me off, you know? Gina Beavers: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think with Drag Race, I always feel like it's like the Miss America of drag. So it's like, you're going to, you're going to represent Rue and the entire franchise. it's like, even sometimes when people get a little spicy in their comments or in their arguments, I'm like, uh-oh, I think that might mean that they can't make it all the way. Cause you sort of have to be this like, I don't know about. TIMOTHY HULL: You pageant queen sort of thing. Gina Beavers: And like perfect kind of demeanor, like at some level you can't be like too shady. I don't know. TIMOTHY HULL: But know, that's also, Gina, that's also like how the art world operates, right? It's like, yeah, like you can't actually show a Gagosian or David Zwirner and actually be like transgressive in any way or actually be like really weird or unpredictable. to actually succeed in the art world in that sort of capitalist corporate way, you have to be like a brand. It has to be consistent. It has to be, you know, Gina Beavers: Yeah, it's a corporate thing. It's a capitalist thing. Yeah. Thanks Right. Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: Buh, you know, that kind of thing. So it's the same in Drag Race, it's the same in Project Runway, it's like the, in shitification of everything. Gina Beavers: Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. Totally. Well, in Project Runway, I was thinking about that because I had emailed or texted you about that comment from Tim Gunn from like one of the first seasons to Chris March, where he's like, you've you've been in the monkey house so long, you can't smell the monkey shit. And I think about that sometimes in the studio, like, you know, that that interaction just like beams into my brain. And I'm like, have I been in the studio too long? I can't smell the shit like. But I also look back on that now and think there was sort of an anti, because he was doing more theatrical and kind of drag, maybe slightly more drag designs. And I feel like what is the fashion world's relationship to that edge of like, know. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah. Well, one of the biggest criticisms in Project Runway all the time is that the work looks too costumey. So that's always like, Nina Garcia is always like, it looks too costumey, you know? And that's often a criticism. And I get it. Like it's sort of, you know, it can become a trope. ⁓ But also what that usually means is it's too queer or something. You know, that's sort of like a weird subtext. Gina Beavers: Hmm. Hmm? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, I said, right. Hmm. ⁓ yeah, it's really interesting because then I was thinking about that. I don't know as much about the fashion world, obviously, as

I do the art world, but that edge between sort of camp and high fashion and how that might translate to the art world, like an edge between real transgressive and then what will actually sell at the highest blue chip levels. I don't know. I mean, I'm I was trying to compare the two. was thinking it's kind of, something about it reminds me, yeah, of the art world, yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: Well, there's an artist that has a show at Sebastian Gladstone right now named, I think his name is Nick Hoker. I just sort of started following him and got hip to it. And I found the work to be sort of problematic in a way and provocative. And I wasn't sure if I really liked it. And so I made a post on Instagram, like, I'm not sure I really liked this work. Like, what do you all think? And dozens and dozens of like, people wrote back being like, ⁓ this work is like, you know, trying to wants to look transgressive, but isn't or is using like the discourse of, of being like subversive, but really is like using the imagery of luxury goods and like, you know, it's all about body fascism and like, I mean, the criticism heaped on it was pretty, pretty brutal. And I was kind of like amazed by the discourse that came out of this. Some people wrote to me and were like, whoa, why are you being so negative, dude? Like, don't be so like, you why do you have to use your platform to take down another artist? And I'm like, I'm not taking down the artist. I'm actually asking people like, well, what do you think of this? Like, let's like sort of talk about it and sort of interrogate it. And I feel like there's always that feeling that like any kind of criticism is seen as like a personal attack on someone. Gina Beavers: Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: or mean-spirited and so therefore you shouldn't do it. And I feel like, I also think that in the art world, there's not enough criticism. Like everyone's just getting away with any which way to Sunday doing this or that. And people are afraid to say anything bad or sort of interrogate it at all. And I feel like, you know, we should be able to do that and not like, I still am not sure how much I'd like or not like this guy's work, but I have to give him props that he made something provocative that got a lot of people talking about. So whether or not like I think it's good or not, like I'm still, I need to go see it in person, really get the whole vibe. But I do feel like the idea of what can be transgressive or not, or how something that was transgressive becomes sort of campy or a pastiche and then becomes sort of. Gina Beavers: Thank you. TIMOTHY HULL: corporatized and anesthetized and then sort of means nothing. Gina Beavers: Yeah, that's true too. I guess it's like a pipeline sometimes too. Yeah. ⁓ TIMOTHY HULL: There's an essay called Why Johnny Can't Descent, which was sort of about how like in capitalist corporate culture, like if you have a transgressive opinion, the capitalist corporate culture sort of grabs it and makes it part of its own. And so then it sort of neutralizes whatever transgressive aspect there was of it. And the art world kind of does that too. Gina Beavers: Yeah, no, absolutely. mean, I guess it was the aesthetics of that, like something that I feel like we're in such a moment of kind of tasteful. I don't know, do things feel tasteful right now? TIMOTHY HULL: Well, that was sort of the problem with a lot of people have with this artist's work that I'm talking about is that they were like, ⁓ it's just taste. It's just sort of aesthetics. it doesn't, like the meaning is sort of intellectually lazy or it's flat-footed that it's just about like fashion goods or sort of, know, it just sort of looks cool, but really isn't really doing anything. And so that's sort of a question that we all kind of should ask ourselves or wonder about is like, what's the difference between like, you you want something to look cool or look beautiful, but you you also, you know, want it to be charged in some way or, you know, so I don't know. I mean, that's sort of a wrap. Gina Beavers: ⁓ okay. I feel like I don't know what any of those words mean. Like I don't know what beauty means. when, I mean, I guess I said, it's like, don't, I know what tasteful me, you know, like I use the word tasteful, but I don't know, like beauty. ⁓ I just, I personally struggle with it. So I don't know, you know, cause one person's beautiful as somebody else's. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah, ask Agnes Martin, she'll tell you. Yeah. Right, but don't you know a beautiful person when you see them? mean, it's like Franco at home having a coke with you is about how like, you you recognize beauty in a person, you know, more than you can in art. Gina Beavers: Yeah. Right, right, right. Right, because of art, but I just think art historically it's been upended so many times and it's so shifting that I don't always, and that's just my own personal perspective on it. don't, you know, I obviously have issues recognizing. Other times I'm like, see something beautiful. TIMOTHY HULL: and I wanna get, I wanna get back. But Gina, I wanna circle back to that thing about the monkey zoo den, whatever that was, because that's an interesting, can you talk a little bit more about that? Gina Beavers: Yeah. ⁓ just being- TIMOTHY HULL: Like how that works out in your own studio life, like how you think that's happened to you or how you get out of it. Gina Beavers: I'll just... You're just, no, and I don't even know if it's bad. It's only when someone on the outside says it's bad, you know, because like really, truly it's being so far up your own ass that you're, you know, but like that is literally art making sometimes. I mean, how can you not be completely into your own? TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah, but see, I guess the question is, can you have your head so far up your ass, right, that you can't even smell your own shit anymore because it smells normal, right? And isn't that sometimes what happens to artists when they get bad? Like, aren't there

some artists that you can say, like, ⁓ they are so far up their own ass that they're so out of touch with, what's going on in the world or what, you know, is the reality of the art world or whatever that you're like, they've just like lost relevance or they've lost vision or scope. Could you look at me, do you think it could be looked at in that way too? Gina Beavers: Mm-hmm. Yeah! Yeah, no, for sure. guess that's, I'm just trying to think of somebody that has done that, where it's like, so that hasn't just delivered. Like if you were so far up your ass that you create the same paintings for like decades, but you're Mark Rothko, like that works. So I don't, I'm trying to think of someone who, where it's just like. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah. I wonder if that really works anymore though. I don't know. I mean, it works from a corporate standpoint. I think that that's what the mega galleries kind of want is like, you're Anish Kapoor, you do big mirrors, right? You're like, you know. But also, Alex Katz though, is someone who I just saw his more recent show at Gladstone, I think it was, which were these really Matisse-like. Gina Beavers: Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: very sparse, sparse, sparse paintings. And I was like, wow, he's sort of really done something a little different for himself. And I was like, that's cool at 90 something, can really like, they're like late de Kooning, like, you know, you're like, wow, like what happens when you really like pull it all out? Gina Beavers: Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. Well, I think that like that particular comment to you can't smell the shit is like a definite line between something being good and something being bad. And I think like the way that it was used initially was just like it's becoming grotesque or it's becoming. ⁓ Yeah, I don't know outside the realm of I don't know, but that's why it's so hard to talk about art. What's bad grotesque. TIMOTHY HULL: But it's also, but that's also why I wanted to go to grad school like, you know, decades ago, because I was making work on my own, like in a little barn studio, thinking I was like making great work and thinking it was awesome. And I remember someone came in and was like, what is this? What are the references to this? Like, what is this about? Like, what, you know, like they sort of really interrogated it and I was like, oh shit, I don't know. Gina Beavers: Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: what the fuck this is about. I don't know what it means. Like I'm totally in my own head. And, and I was telling that to someone like, well, maybe you should go to grad school and sort of like, because they're the like, sort of rip you apart and you have to rebuild, you know, build it all back up again. And that worked for me. Like I felt like going to grad school really sort of put me through a little bit of the wringer where I had to sort of tear everything down and build it all back up again. Because sometimes I do think that like, Gina Beavers: Well, I'm not sure. TIMOTHY HULL: you're getting in your own head and sometimes you gotta get something to help you jolt out of it, which kind of brings me to another topic I wanna talk about is that idea of like the artist coaches and like the role of like these sort of classes that you can take as an artist that are supposed to give you community or get you into the next Whitney Biennial or get you gallery representation and like a lot of it's scammy bullshit. But a lot of it can be really helpful. So I wonder what you think about that. Gina Beavers: Well, I think we started talking about this because we both saw, you know, around the same time this ⁓ Patty Johnson's new, I think it's called Workshop or something spelled strangely about like how to be a biennial artist, right? something like that. were like, what the hell? But my initial instinct, cause I think we wanted to like laugh, ⁓ ha ha. But I mean, ugh. TIMOTHY HULL: I know we both screen shot of that and shared it to each other and was like, what the fuck. Gina Beavers: I've done some really embarrassing things to try to, you know, I auditioned for work of art, the like, the TV show. TIMOTHY HULL: mean, with Jerry Salt's reality TV show that also Dan Cullen's father was in or something. Gina Beavers: Was he? ⁓ yeah, I don't remember even. yeah, I I auditioned for that. So I can't really judge anyone for, my best case scenario is that class is like explaining what a biennial is, explaining how the curators rotate. There's a lot of history you could do on the biennial and like who's been in it and whose careers, you could discuss it in a way that just demystifies what biennials are and how they go about sort of picking artists, which is. As far as I can tell, you know, it's become extremely subjective. It's very subjective. It's like whoever the curator is, it's like whatever their perspective is and who they know and like, yeah. So, I mean, it could, at the most innocent end, it's sort of explaining that. And for a lot of people, maybe that, the art world is very opaque. So it's like, that's good. But like any kind of, this is how you become a biennial artist feels like misleading. TIMOTHY HULL: It is mystifying. Gina Beavers: Right? I mean... TIMOTHY HULL: Well, yeah, and that's what I sort of felt like so indignant about it is that like, because I know that there's a ton of artists out there who are desperate and I understand we're all just as desperate as, you know, the next person to be seen or to know something or to get a leg up or whatever. ⁓ But to me, that felt like a kind of taking advantage of people who think like, ⁓ well, if I take this course, I could be in the biennial or if I take this course, I could be represented by a gallery. And you and I both know, because we've been in the business long enough, that you're not gonna get into the biennial because you took a course on how to do it. Gina Beavers: Yeah, if you do, it has nothing to do. Like it's possible someone could take that course and be in a biennial in a

decade. like it has one doesn't the only thing that they have in common is your intention to be an artist in your drive. You know, so your drive set you down some weird paths. But then that drive ended up getting you into a biennial. But those two things are not connected. Like, you know what I mean? TIMOTHY HULL: Sure. Right. Well, you know, and I feel like I, you know, I've always admired what Patti does. Like I loved Artfag City as a blog and it's too bad that running a blog is not as financially successful as running like an artist coaching workshop kind of platform. ⁓ But just the whole sort of culture of like coaching now is just annoying to me. Like there's like sex coaches, food coaches, career coaches, fashion coaches. It's like... Gina Beavers: Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: Everything has got to be coached now. It's like we can't do anything ourselves. We don't trust ourselves to be able to do or accomplish anything. And so we need to hire. There's a whole ecosystem and don't search it on Instagram because then all you will get are ads for like coaching this, coaching that, coaching up, coaching down, coaching left, coaching right, you know? And that also kind of annoys me is just this like incessant obsession with, ⁓ I gotta get a coach to do this. Gina Beavers: Yeah, I know it's influencer culture. It's like, do this, I'm going to show you how to do this. And it's like, unfortunately, I mean, I don't know if it's just me. Like I am, cannot be coached. I don't know. I just can't, um, I have to learn every single lesson, the hardest possible way. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah, well artists can't really be coached. It's like herding cats. It's like if you're an artist who can be coached, then you probably got a problem. Me too. Gina Beavers: My head up against a wall. It just like yeah Until I get it, you know, so I don't know and I think that's a big part of being an artist is really Yeah TIMOTHY HULL: I mean, I don't want to like barrage Patti's hustle because I do think that, you know, we're all hustling, we're all trying to figure out how we fit into the ecosystem of the art world. But I do feel like I just want to offer her a little constructive criticism that like having advertisements that are like how to be a biennial artist or how to get gallery representation and things like that that are sort of, can't really guarantee someone. To me, that's disingenuous and misleading. And I think that's is sort of scamming. Gina Beavers: No, yeah. Everybody has a hospital. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: and I don't really. Gina Beavers: I don't like it. mean, I also, had screenshot a bunch of, and I like same thing, like not to knock anyone's hustle because I know he's had this magazine for a long time, White Hot Magazine. And he had all these, like a screen you could like go through and there were all these like little short myths about the art world or whatever. You can scroll through. Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: mean, his posts that are like, you can scroll through

them and it's like sort of wisdom, wisdom about PR. Gina Beavers: You know, I think that stuff is actually really destructive in the end to like, it's hard enough to make work. Like artists don't need to be walking around with all this bullshit in their head about how it's never gonna happen. you know, because it's really dark. It's like, we don't, I remember somebody when I was getting out of grad school, it was like, you know, only 1 % of artists will ever support themselves on their work or whatever. TIMOTHY HULL: That's true. His posts are really negative. They're like Gina Beavers: And I don't even know, like how did they figure that out or what was the math or did they, was it a survey or like, was that over time? Was that one year? Like, what was that? And I remember that sticking in my head for like years, like, you know, and it doesn't help. It certainly doesn't help, you know, you just, I think Bumble, now I'm going to be the influencer and tell you somebody, the Bumblebee theory. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah, I- Gina Beavers: where the bumblebee doesn't know how heavy and awkward it is and that it shouldn't be able to fly. That's the only one thing you need to know is like, you know, but it does, you know. TIMOTHY HULL: It does. Yeah, well, I am in grad school. had a professor who also like the first day of grad school was like, if any of you think you're going to be like professional artists and making a living off of your art where you're all mistaken, like you're all, you know, don't don't be here because you think you're going to like make a living and, really be an art star. you know, this is also the era where MFA meant like art star. So I think he was trying to like temper our expectations. But then Sharon Loudon came, and this was back before she wrote all these books and stuff, and she came to my class and she was like, there's many ways you can make a living as an artist. There's many, like you can actually be like a middle-class artist if you like do this and do that. like, you know, and she sort of painted this more holistic picture of like building a sustainable art career. And that was really helpful instead of this like doom and gloom, like this is a game and it's rigged and blah, blah. ⁓ Gina Beavers: Exactly. mean, yeah, that's not I don't think it's. ⁓ TIMOTHY HULL: But you know, but also in the same vein, I do think that there is a need and a benefit for some level of assistance or like community. Like I really like the New York Crit Club that Catherine Haggerty is doing because I know a lot of people involved with that, both who've done lessons and who teach it. And the feeling on that is it's sort of like grad school, but it costs a lot less. Gina Beavers: Hmm TIMOTHY HULL: and you sort of do get a sense of community, you do get feedback. so like that, there's no like expectation that you're gonna like get into a gallery or meet so and such and such. Like it's much more like this is your little cohort and you're learning to

growing together. And there's something I think kind of beautiful about that. Gina Beavers: Yeah, I totally agree. I had like hosted one of their classes when I had my show at PS1 and maybe I also did a talk, I can't quite remember. But yeah, the impression was it was very studio focused and like focused on the work and seeing shows and doing critiques and things like that. Yeah, I thought it was great. Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah, because that also fills like a void that higher ed is not able to fill right now because A, if you want to be a teacher in higher ed, that's really hard. Like full-time jobs are like almost non-existent. Adjunct positions are really hard to come by, you know? And so a lot of people I know who are the mentors or the teachers in the New York Crit Club are amazing artists, you know? And this is another way that they're getting paid to impart their knowledge. Gina Beavers: Mm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: And also for the students, feel like it's a way of paying a lot less than you pay for college for like a college course. And you're sort of still getting a lot of community and one-on-one stuff. So I feel like that something like that to me feels like it could be, it could serve like a point or the, were also talking about AJ Kurian's ⁓ new crits. Yeah. New crits like that also feels like it's community-based. Gina Beavers: called New Critz. Critz. Yeah, that looks cool. Yeah. And they have a whole Totally, and they have, he does all those interviews with different artists who I'm assuming some of them must become like critics or something within the program. Yeah. Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah, you get like mentorships with artists. I don't know if that's still all ongoing, because I was looking at the website and some of it seemed a little not up to date. So I'm not sure how up to date that is. But I was a little, my constructive criticism of New Crit's though is there was a lot of the words coaching, a lot of like that new age wording of like, know. Gina Beavers: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. TIMOTHY HULL: choose this coaching package. It's this idea of like, ⁓ I'm buying a package that I'm gonna get coached I'm gonna, you know, there's something about that that feels like it's still playing into this like weird corporate capitalist institutional culture that doesn't really serve people in the end. Sounds good, feels good, but I feel like it's sort of, you know. Gina Beavers: Mm-hmm. TIMOTHY HULL: needs that needs to be interrogated Gina Beavers: Yeah, yeah. mean, I think ultimately, you know, for me failure, because I think we had written down like success versus failure is one of our things, but failing was the best way for me to figure out, you know, just like continuously failing at things is really good. That's the advice. But you do have to put yourself out there and try things with your work, try things in the art world. try, try and like fail and then just be like, okay, this is obviously not working. Cause I remember

for like 10 years, like applied to things, didn't get anything. ⁓ And was like, ⁓ this is not working. Try something else. And no, yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: You know, that's a whole other podcast episode we could do on like a rejection and applying for stuff and like getting nothing, you know, like, and having to be okay with that and having to spill like how many times have I applied to like NYFA in the past 20 years? how I've applied to the Pollock Krasner like, you know, dozens of times, you know, it's just like, it does. Gina Beavers: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You just have, yeah. It reminds me of this podcast, Dead Eyes. Have you ever listened to that? That's the guy that was cut. He is an actor podcast, but he, he's a character actor. You might recognize him. He was cut from a movie with Tom Hanks because Tom Hanks said he had dead eyes. And, but he, at one point they were talking about auditioning and how like he has to psych himself out as he's walking out of the room. to be like, I don't even want this. I don't even want it. Because there's so much rejection that you have to become really tough to the point of embracing your failure. I'm just going to fail at the show. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah, but that, think that's the key to success and happiness really is wanting something, but still being okay and still being happy even if you don't get it. You know, and being like, yeah, I wanna be in that show or I wanna get this award or I wanna get that, you know, nomination or whatever. But if I don't get it, it's okay. Like, you know, I just didn't get it now. Maybe I'll get it later. Maybe I didn't need it or, you know. Gina Beavers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, Right, right, right. Yeah, because you can't let it turn it into something where you don't try again. Like, can't shut you down to the point of, ⁓ TIMOTHY HULL: I remember I applied to something a few, like a couple of years ago and I, and the, the rejection letter, I was like a finalist for it. Like I was one of like, you know, three people or something and I didn't get it. And the rejection letter was like, we're sorry that, you know, you weren't awarded this and I assure you it has absolutely nothing to do with your work. And I was like, um, Gina Beavers: Hmm. TIMOTHY HULL: Fuck you. Like what does it have to do with then? know, like shouldn't in the end this have come down to like the quality of my work? Like, so if it didn't have anything to do with that, then what obs- your, you know, standards are you operating under here? And, you know, I don't want to cast aspersions on anyone. I can imagine what they meant or what they were, but that, you gotta be okay with that bullshit. Gina Beavers: ⁓ yeah. Then what is it I have to do? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's... Yeah. And that just shows you when people are trying to like soften the blow, like too many words are not helping it. Like just say, unfortunately you were not awarded the thing. Thank you. Okay. I get it enough. Don't try to, know, yeah.

Don't try to sugar coat it because it's just going to make me feel worse. Yeah. ⁓ and that's a really bar. Yeah. Comment. TIMOTHY HULL: So, well, I'm kind of looking ahead to the next week now. I'm gonna go to Amsterdam on Thursday to meet up with my husband, Corey, who's been doing the Teyfaf Fair there, which is really interesting. Seeing the images coming from Teyfaf is, what a cool fair. It's like all like old master stuff, but mixed in with some contemporary. And Marion Boski Gallery is doing a booth there with... Gina Beavers: Yeah, ⁓ sorry. Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: to Lida's work whose last name just escaped me with, do you know it? Gina Beavers: Is it Hamu, Hamu or no? Talita Hamu? No. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah, maybe. And they've paired her with Rodin. And not Rodin, ⁓ Odellard Redon. ⁓ At any rate, so I'm gonna be going over there to do little Amsterdam thing for a couple of days. But there are a bunch of shows that I'm really dying to see and absolutely wanna just tell people that there's some cool stuff out there like the Felix Baudry show at Situations. That's an artist that... Gina Beavers: A red doll. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: I think is one of the more interesting sculptors out there doing really bizarre twists on bodies and couches and faces and weaving and textiles. It's really cool stuff, but I've not seen the show, but I'm a big fan. Of course, Sasha Brauning at Magenta Plains, who I think was maybe in like greater New York with you or something like that. Yeah, love, love. Gina Beavers: Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: Browning's work, Jaya Howey at Bureau got to see that because I love like their drawing style. And of course, Mamie Tinkler curated a show in the basement at Bureau, which has some interesting people in it that I'd like to check out too. So I've definitely got like my list that when I get back from Amsterdam, I'm going to have to hit the ground running. ⁓ But is there anything that's like on your list or that you saw recently that you want to sort of talk about or that you want to see? Gina Beavers: Yeah, no, I mean, I just saw the Patalesco. ⁓ I'm very jealous of people who were in the in London because they can see the Rose Wiley show at the Royal Academy, which I would love to see that show. I don't know. Yeah, I maybe I don't. I'll have to look into it. ⁓ Yeah. And then there was that show since you're going to Amsterdam, but it doesn't open till April, I think, is the Manosphere show at the state of Lick. TIMOTHY HULL: Is that not coming to New York? Gina Beavers: which I thought was really interesting. I'm just so curious about like how they're going to tackle, yeah, or what that's going to be with the Manosphere. Is that just sort of, I don't know. TIMOTHY HULL: up at now. Yeah, mean, masculinity in art is clearly a thing. And I think that in the, it's really, it's interesting to think about and talk about it now in relationship, I think to the sort of newer Trump era we're in where there's this sort of like brash masculinity,

you know, and we're going to war and we're, know, Pete Hegseth is all sort of, you know, performing this masculinity. And so the question really is, like, well, Gina Beavers: Yeah, is this just asking? Yeah. Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: What is the inherent value or violence of masculinity? And can we get back to like the union concept of like men's groups where men can get together and talk about like their psychological states and their emotions and not have to be at war with time? Gina Beavers: Yeah. I just always think about the Manosphere. I mean, it's like the popped out identity. It's like instead of being the backdrop to everything, which like the white male has sort of been just the implied power of everything. It's ⁓ like you have your little tabs at the top of your browser and you take men like white guys out and they get their own special like victims. like they become victimized ⁓ after having been, you know, really just, yeah, in power the entire time. But now there is a little popped out like, ⁓ I'm an identity too. And I'm really beleaguered, you know, I'm really like, as this, know. TIMOTHY HULL: Yeah, well that was something that people brought up as the controversy of this guy, Nick Hoker's artwork is that like a bunch of, most of the criticism that was on my Instagram page around that artist was that it was from people of color, like, know, Latinos or black people who are like, I'm really uncomfortable with him performing this like hyper white masculinity as like identity art. you know, it Gina Beavers: Interesting. TIMOTHY HULL: Aren't we beyond that or could he be doing it less cringey? So it's interesting that I feel like, and it's provocative that there are artists who would think that performing their white masculinity of ⁓ beautiful bodies and sort of sexy thirst traps and stuff is somehow political, but I don't know, I'm not totally on board with Gina Beavers: Interesting. I have to check the show out. Yeah, mean, the one who's the Icelandic artist, a performer. ⁓ my God, why am I like totally blanking on his name? Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: Listen Gina, though, I'm gonna just for the record say that I never have a problem with like a guy with a great body showing it off on Instagram. That's fine. ⁓ I'm fine with that. I'm fine with it. Not body shaming anyone. I love beautiful bodies. ⁓ Gina Beavers: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. That's not, yeah, no. ⁓ Who is it? ⁓ my God. The Icelandic artist. He showed up. ⁓ my God. ⁓ well, I'll have to. Not Alliance, no. ⁓ my God. No, no. ⁓ TIMOTHY HULL: In the Icelandic of Bjork? Gina Beavers: ⁓ okay. Well, but he had he this man, this unnamed male artist had a lot. had a great show at Louisiana and Copenhagen or outside Copenhagen and Denmark where he had performances and videos. And I felt like there were aspects to his work that were about male, like being a man, a white guy that were a lot more approachable and interesting and they were more interrogating it. Like he has this this one performer who sort of looks like ⁓ Clark Gable or like, you he's dressed up in a suit, sort of like a James Bond type, but like very nicely dressed, slicked back hair is on this little ledge and he can't go anywhere and he's trying to like, he's scared. It's sort of from an action movie or something. There's a real performer in the space, but just moving back and forth like, ⁓ God, I'm under assault kind of like. But in this way that was, you know, it really made you think about like how much, I don't know, it made you think of action movies, it made you think of male identity and being this kind of like crud. TIMOTHY HULL: mean, as a man, I masculinity is under assault. I know that that could sound offensive, but instead of being reactionary and being like, oh, I'm going to be now big, brute about it, I'm like, well, let's interrogate. Why is masculinity under assault? Or why is that problematic? And how can I be a man and be a positive force in the world and use my masculinity towards good and understanding and peace and kindness. I think that just being a man is inherently a problem. Gina Beavers: No, I mean, yeah, I don't think so either. Yeah. How dare you bring your mask the masculinity of this podcast. Yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: Anyway, speaking of men, still haven't seen the Jasper Johns show, must see the Jasper Johns show. love just speaking of like white men of a certain hierarchy of like, know, corporatism, et cetera. I still, as a painter, I still love, Jasper Johns to me is like, like a sort of, you know, it's like, he's like Cezanne for me too. Like, you know, it's like, I pay homage to, to. Gina Beavers: Yes. Yeah. Of course, and I would never, I mean, I don't know. I think I had posted something about Jasper Johns on one point and somebody was like in my comments, like, you know, this white, I'm like, does the fact that Jasper Johns was gay, like, and that there was a generation of gay artists in the sixties, does that not, I mean, do you understand how tough that was? TIMOTHY HULL: When I learned that Jasper Johns was gay when I was like in early college, it like changed my trajectory, it changed my life. Gina Beavers: Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, I don't understand that. don't know how we've sort of jumped so far ahead that we can't recognize that the 60s were not exactly an amazing time to be gay in this country. And I don't know why, whatever. Yeah. ⁓ TIMOTHY HULL: So, yeah. I have the Jasper Johns retrospective book from the Whitney and the Philadelphia Museum and that I like pour over that all the time and I'm like, ⁓ like, you know, this is so, what is he doing here? What's he doing there? I'm infinitely inspired by him. You know, maybe my artwork's irrelevant. Gina Beavers: Totally. Yeah, I don't think I could make the work. I can't make the work that I make without Jasper Johns, without this painting as an object, painting as the flag as a painting, this kind of layered meaning. mean, you can't, yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: Totally. Yeah. Yeah, we are the children of John, or maybe the grandchildren of Jasper Johns. He's still alive. Granddaddy's still alive. 96, something, 95, I don't know. He's definitely. Gina Beavers: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the 40. the 40th. Yeah, he's our granddaddy. He's a great grandfather because we're only 30 plus. Okay, yeah. TIMOTHY HULL: Anyway, Jean, I'm gonna ring the bell ⁓ time here. So this has been great and I look forward to chatting on our next one. Hopefully we'll both have seen the Whitney biennial. I need to see that too so we can do like. Yeah. All right. Talk to you later. Bye bye. Gina Beavers: Yeah, I'm going to go back and yeah, we can definitely talk. Okay, Have a great time and see you guys later. Bye. Bye.