Bản chép lời đầy đủ của Jesse Browner

believe the subtitle is learning Life's most important skill. And his thesis is that happiness is not something that automatically comes, but it's something that you work at, just like like yoga, just like meditation. It's a discipline that you learn. And although I had had some familiarity with Buddhism before I translated the book, uh, it really had a profound effect on me. And I have a dog which is not a wolf, but it's close. And my dog Uh is not always very good on the leash. She likes to stop, and she likes to smell everything, and she can be very slow. She's not one of those dogs that goes trotting down the street with her head up. She'll she'll stop and examine everything on her way. And I had been very impatient with her when she was young. And after I translated Maturi Card's book, I suddenly started looking at our morning walks in a very different way. And suddenly, I mean not only was I looking at the morning walk from the dog's point of view, that this was for her, not for me, and therefore she should be allowed to do what she wanted, but also in the sense that I had so much to learn from her about patients and slowness and non purpose driven activity. And so suddenly our walks became incredibly pleasurable for both of us, where had they had been quite stressful for both of us before that. And so for me, I would say I had been feeding the wrong wolf all that time, and suddenly, when I realized what was the right wolf to feed, everything fell into place. And quite a few years later Matthia came to New York and I had mentioned this to him in one of my letters to him. And one of the first things he asked me, and this was years years later, he said, how is your dog doing? How are your walks? And he really understood how profoundly I had taken his lessons to heart, because specifically, as illustrated in the Parable of the Dog Walk. So um, I hope that that works as a response to the parable. It works great. I think I have learned more from my dogs than probably nearly anyone else. Uh. So they are. They have been a great teacher to me too, of some of the very same lessons. Yeah, I think they're all Buddhist without telling us. So your latest book is called how Did I Get Here? Making Peace with the Road Not Taken? And kind of right at the heart of it is you are an author, but you're not a full time author, as in, well, let me rephrase that, you are an author, but you also have a job that you do in addition to that, And the book is really about your wrestling with should you have taken that job, should you have that job? Should you be able to pursue your art full time? And and the questions about how you balance those things out, and uh, I just found it really compelling as somebody who wrestles with a lot of the same questions. Well, thank you. I mean, of course, virtually every novelist has to have a job of some sort. You know, almost everybody I know who writes novels teaches. That's quite normal. It was not the choice that I made. I took

a much more um, I guess you would say, straight job on an international civil servant, which means I work in the bureaucracy at the United Nations. So we all make our choices. If you're a teacher, of course, one of your choices is accepting that you're never going to really make a lot of money. And what I was concerned with when I finally made the decision to take this job, which was my first full time job ever in my life at the age of thirty, was I had spent the last ten years scrabbling to make a living while I was trying to write. And of course in those days, you know, in your twenties, I had not published anything of note. I had not published my first novel yet. I had done some literary translations and some some short stories and some travel pieces, I knew very well what it meant to be uh insecure about an income, and I had felt that that sense of worry about money was more harmful to me than spending my days at a job, because the point is always you want to be able to devote yourself fully to your work, and that mostly entails thinking about it while you're not doing it, because you know, at the most you're going to be writing four or five hours a day, but you need to be thinking about that work for the rest of the time. And so you worry about having a job that's going to distract you, that's going to soak up some of your emotional and intellectual energy. And I had found that working freelance was not helpful to me. Yes, that was free to make my own hours, but always being worried about where the next paycheck was going to come from was not really conducive to being able to focus on my work. So that was part of the decision making process for me. And now I've been at that job for well over twenty years, and I still wrestle with the consequences of that decision, which is why I wrote the book. You know, just because you make a decision doesn't automatically mean that you've trusted your instincts. I think most of us, especially writers and artists in general, have a tendency two second guess ourselves all the time. That's natural and it's good. You know, it's very helpful to the creative process because you never want to be complacent about something you've put down on the page or on the canvas. But it doesn't always make for a smooth, pleasant life, and you just have to accept that that's not your lot. You talk about in the book, you say that what all our unlived lives have in common is that we are somehow more ourselves, more true to what we believe our true selves to be. Um. You quote Adam Phillips who says in our unlived Lives, he says, we are always more satisfied, less frustrated versions of ourselves. And so you've got this idea of what your life might look like if you could focus on your writing full time. And that's the sort of thing that we talk on this show an awful lot about. It's I kind of call it the you know, the if then you know life proposition, Like if I had this, then you know, and that this can be anything from a car to

thinking I righte full time or the right relationship. But it's always this idea that if something was different than I would be this better version of myself. Well, yeah, I mean I can't speak for other people. Uh, you would naturally presume that almost everybody has moments like that, if not entire lifetimes. Uh live that way. But so it was very important to me when I began to consider how I would write this book that this not be exclusively First of all, that it should not be about me, because my life really isn't especially interesting. I've been going to an office for twenty five years. There's not a lot to write about. But also that in general it should not exclusively be about artists or writers. I wanted it to expand, to encompass the experiences of people who may be questioning the decisions they've made that have nothing to do with artistic expression or self fulfillment, simply people going about their ordinary lives and wondering what if you know? This is not exactly an earth shattering topic. What ifs make up? You know? Of our dreams? And it's the backdrop to so much social discourse, I'm sorry to say, including of course the current political scenario, you can't escape the question what if, but approaching it from a creative perspective and learning that the question ultimately is not what if, but what is? It helped me. I'm very careful in the book two disclaim any intention of writing a self help book because I don't have claim to have any answers. But I do say without a doubt that writing the book was helpful to me, and therefore you can only hope that some people are going to find a kindred are in it. Hey, everybody, Before we get back to the interview, I just wanted to give another big thank you to our listeners who have pledged their support of the show via the Patreon campaign page. Uh. If you go to patreon dot com slash one you feed, that's p A t R e o n dot com slash when you feed all spelled out O N E y O U F e E D. So, if you haven't had the chance to do so, please consider a small monthly donation and keep the show growing and going. Uh. It does take money to keep the show going and growing, so UH, depending on the donation level you choose, we have gifts for you to show our appreciation for your support and UH. Among those gifts are access to an exclusive deluxe mini episode each month. It is exclusive, of course, because it's only available to those of you that make a donation via the Patreon campaign page. UH, it's deluxe because it comes with whipped cream on top. You can also get access to a monthly Ask Me Anything live chat with Eric and this should be exciting for those of you who are hearing this episode because the first session is coming up on December, which is tomorrow. And among other things, we're also offering limited edition the One You Feed coffee mugs. So we promised to put each dollar too careful and good use. And we're very grateful to the listeners and contributions for this campaign. We wouldn't be us without you. So go to patreon dot com slash one you Feed and make a monthly donation and let's keep this great show going. And here's the rest of the interview. Jesse Browner kind of back to the wolf parable, right, we have this life that is and I like the way you said that to me, the good wolf is being involved in that life and appreciative of that life and and living in it. And for me, feeding the bad Wolf is really when I'm in that constant, grass is always greener, And we talked about it on the show a lot because I wrestle with it a lot. It's just my my nature tends to be that way. So what are some of the things besides writing the whole book that you have found helpful for yourself when you find that you're living more in the resentment or the feeling like you squandered your potential by taking a job. What are the some of the things you do to bring you back to your own life that help you to inhabit it more fully. Oh, I wish I had some earth shattering answer for that, but I think it's it's pretty much what anybody would say in the same circumstances. Uh. My family is very important to me, and I always know that, no matter what else I may potentially have failed at as a as a human being or as an artist, this is one endeavor that I have indubitably not failed at. I have two wonderful children who filled me with love and pride, And you know, I would have to say that I was I was born to be a parent almost if I mean at least as much as I was born to be a writer, and that's probably the problem as well as the solution, then, of course, is my work. You know, as a writer, I'm not sure that I work. I don't really know how other writers work. I don't spend a lot of time asking them how they work or worrying about it, and we all work different ways. However, for me, I I often have long hiatuses between my books, and I forget exactly the kind of peace of mind that I get when I'm writing. So when I am, for instance, as I am right now, right in the middle of a book, um, I will get up at four o'clock in the morning and I will put in three very productive hours before I have to walk the dog, which is another very productive four or five minutes before I go off to my job. But having spent those three hours in the morning doing what I was born to do, colors the rest of my day and nothing can really bother me after that. And so I'm extremely lucky, and I'm able to remind myself constantly while I'm writing how lucky I am. What a gift it is two have something that you feel you need to do every day. Uh. The problem is if I'm finished with a book, and I'm involved in the publication process, which can be stressful and time consuming, and then later involved in the process of just stating another book before it starts to go on paper. It's easy to forget that you have something like this that you can turn to. Uh, when you're feeling that you're forgetting that maybe your life has a higher purpose. So it's a seesaw. Yeah, I mean that's you know, it's it doesn't

always work, but when it works, it really works. There's a couple of things about what you said that I really like. One of the things that I really like is the fact that you have not allowed the fact that you've got a job, in a family and the kids as an excuse for why you can't be a writer. You found a way to keep doing it. And I think that that's a trap a lot of people get into, is if I can't be this thing all the time, then I'm not going to do it. I see people who get trapped in They've got something they want to pursue, but they feel like if they can't make a living doing that, then they shouldn't do it. And and there's a whole middle ground in between there where you can both have a job, take care of a family, and engage in things in your life that really matter to you. Who is the poet who said I'm of three minds about that, like like a tree with three ravens. On the one hand, if you're a writer, you right, and nothing's going to stop you from doing it. And if you're making excuses for not doing it, there's a bigger problem. Uh, And you need to really ask yourself why you think you're a writer if you're not writing, because ultimately it does come to that. That's that can sound cruel, but you know it has to be a little bit cruel. You know, even of us who are publishing are publishing garbage, and I potentially include myself and that um and we are only one to the people who think of ourselves as writers. So if you're going to be put off by the easy things like not having enough time, then you really have to question your vocation. The flip side to that, that is the second mind is the one that bothers me all the time, which is, well, if I can't do it, why should I do it? Why engage in something on a mediocre or or half hearted foundation when there are enough people out there doing it really well and fully committed to it, and I wrestle with that a lot. That's what this book was, was a lot was asking myself, if I'm not creating at my highest potential, maybe I shouldn't be doing it at all, because then I'm just doing it for selfish purposes to make my felt myself feel smart or creative or two um win the admiration of my peers, all of which are terrible reasons to be a writer, because you have to, um, the only personal quality that every writer really needs to have is is humility. Um. And if you're if you're not humbled by the task that's facing you again, you're not going to be approaching it with the correct openness of heart and mind. So there's that. And then there's the third raven in the tree, if that's the right quote, which is what I do is well, I'm going to do my best. I know I am not able to devote myself to it, and I am going to hope, without any evidence to back up that hope, that there is actually an upside to living a full life. Uh that involves more than simply single minded devotion to your craft. And maybe there are advantages to the way I'm doing it that I'm not even aware of. But you know, that requires a certain amount of blind faith, which fortunately, when you're a civil servant, you have a lot of time to cultivate blind faith, and I've been quite good at that, if nothing else. I agree with you that I could be of three minds on that. You know, I believe that the buddhas perhaps his best teaching to me was the the idea of the middle way, um and which is really option three for you, which is that it's not exactly the way you would have it be, but it's you're finding the middle ground between giving up and doing it. And I also think that there are things that we do in our lives, not always because we could be the best at it, or that it adds some tremendous value to the world, so much as it helps us find a truer part of ourselves, whether that be some sort of creative action, whether that be an exercise we enjoy. But I think that those things kind of fall into if you take the artistic piece of it away. I think that those things can add a lot of value and depth to life if we're not too attached to the results. Well, I agree completely, um. And I think that probably the most persistent monkey on an artist's back is the idea of happiness. Especially those of us who grew up in the twentieth century and grew up with the tradition of the bohemian suffering artists, we were afraid to be happy. Maturity card against speaks a lot about that. People are afraid that, and especially artists and even more especially writers are afraid that they're going to lose something that is exclusively theirs if they are simultaneously seeking artistic fulfillment and happiness. Happiness is somehow a kind of a bleach in their minds that whitewashes all the things that make them unique. Um. And of course this goes back to War in Peace with Tolstoy's opening lines about all happy families are the same, and every unhappy family is unique in its own way. We have this idea that if we are able to cultivate a sense of dissatisfaction that is somehow reaching in to the deepest aspects of our individuality, both as human beings and as writers, and we're afraid of being happy. And that is definitely true for me. That is definitely the iconography of the twentieth century artist. You know, obviously you think of Franz Kafka or Jack Kerouac, you name it. Uh. You know, if they're happy, there's something wrong with them. They can't be very good writers or or artists. Um. The really great artists are the van Goes and the other you know, people who saw off their ears, um, and how at the moon. So we're afraid to be happy, and we're afraid to do things that are going to make us happy. Um, making writing makes me happy, and I'm not really supposed to say that. I'm supposed to say that writing makes me feel the most isolated or the most unique, alone, wandering the empty rooms of the mansion of my soul. It could be true you have to fight to be happy as an artist, but I don't really think it's true. I don't think you lose anything by trying to be to be happy and trying to be good. In other words, happiness is

is what you feel inside, and being good is the way you projected to the outer world. I don't really see the contradiction, but lots of people do. Yeah. I was having this conversation with Ohio's poet Laureate a couple of weeks ago, and we were we were talking about this, and part of the thing is that we were talking about was the idea that we hear the artists, we hear about having these you know, these very destructive and wild lives are the only ones we talked about because the artists who are six sessful, who don't do that, there's not very much to say. It is kind of a boring topic. Um, well, he's well adjusted and produces great art is kind of a boring story. Um, And I love what you say in the book. You say, perhaps the vicarious thrill we get from reading these Lives lies in the fact that, whereas genius is elusive and beyond the grasp of most of us, we can all imagine ourselves acting transgressively and destructively, selfishly and irresponsibly, at least once, even if we are not in reality prepared to accept the consequences. And I just thought that was great because I think being a bohemian in my twenties also, uh, it was easier to focus on the self destructive things that artists did than actually being an artist. Well, yeah, I mean a lot more fun, you know, It's very simple. I mean, how many of us are geniuses? Virtually none of us? Um certainly not me. I would I would have loved to have been a genius, but I'm not. And therefore am I really paired to go through a life being a miserable bastard to myself and to other people on the tiniest, slimmest chance that being unhappy and being selfish is going to nurture my genius. I mean, what that that's the terrible odds. I'm a poker player, and I would never bet on that hand. So, you know, bet on the bet on the likelihood that you're not a genius and that you can make meaning in your life in other ways, that is, through the love that you project within your family and within your community. The ability to make meaning outside of your art is going to preserve you against a lot of the absolutely inevitable heartbreaks that come with deciding you're an artist and you're going to dedicate your life to creating art. There are so many frustrations and setbacks and moments of self doubt, perhaps of self loathing that are absolutely incumbent on the job of being an artist. Why bet against yourself? Uh? And that's what I was trying to figure out. Could I be a happy person even if it turned out that I wasn't a great writer. I certainly won't know whether I'm a good writer in my own lifetime. So if by some miracle I end up being a Henry Roth or some Vanier Rousseau whose genius is only discovered long after I'm dead, well, as an atheist, that doesn't mean a lot to me. Uh So why not? You know, how are you going to reconcile yourself at the end of your life If you're both a lousy artist and a lousy person. There you go. That's a bitter pill to swallow both those. Certainly being a lousy person is difficult

to you just mentioned, Um, you know you're someone without God, and you say that work hard at something you love and even if you may never be the best, you can always be the best you can for someone without God. I find this as close to a workable definition of the meaning of life as I've ever come across. There's a wonderful Finnish novelist. And of course now that I need to find her name, um, I am not going to she uh is the author of the famous set of series of children's books called The Move Controls. And I'll think of her name in a minute. I'm sorry for your listeners having to hear me in one of my old man's moments. Anyway, her motto was simply work and love. It was in Latin, of course, but it's really that simple. You just work. You know, work is what makes us who we are, at least it's true for me, and love is what makes us who we can be. And I feel as if in recent years, not you know, not for the majority of my life, but in the last say, five years, since I began writing this book, I've had a big change in my life. I tried to become a Buddhist at the wrong moment, and my children used to call me the angry Buddhist because I was really good at talking about it but not very good at living it. And I'm still not very good at living it. But I never forget I'm here to try to make other people happy, and I can do that if I'm very very lucky through my writing. And you know what, if I'm not so lucky, I can still do it. So ultimately, it's not too contradictory. Paths it's not two paths that diverged in the woods. It's two paths that come together in the woods. Uh. But maybe you need to walk both of them to their logical conclusions. Yeah, And I think that's probably a great place to start wrapping up. I love the book. It's called How Did I Get Here? And like I said, I wrestle with this unlived life idea, this grass is always greener on on the other side thing in my own life, and I've found, like you, there's no easy answer to that, but that for me, most of the answer seems to be in what you're describing, which is to be more deeply involved in the life you actually have. Exactly. I couldn't have put it better myself. Thanks so much, Jesse for taking the time to come on. Like I said, I really did enjoy the book. It was one of those that the whole time I was reading it, I was like this, I relate with all of this, So thanks so much. And and one of the things I loved about it a lot is that you don't have easy answers in the book. And I don't think there's easy answers to most of life's questions, but there's a lot of deep thought about it that I found very helpful. So thank you, well, thank you. I'm really pleased that it reached you in some way. Excellent. We'll take care of the same to you, Eric. Thank you very much. Bye, yep bye. You can learn more about Jesse Browner and this podcast add one you Feed dot net Slash Jesse. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to the one you Feed podcast asked. Head over to one you Feed dot net slash Support