Bản chép lời đầy đủ của Postponed Polygamy within Mormonism with Carol Lynn Pearson revisited

00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:50.720 the rest of us, for women and for a lot 73 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:57.319 of men, this doctrine policy practice is indefensible. 74 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:01.959 I think it's a good of us probably to clarify 75 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:06.759 that the Mormon Church no longer practices it as far 76 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:09.519 as having multiple wives. And this has been going on 77 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:12.560 that way for a number of years, back from the 78 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:13.759 late eighteen. 79 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:15.160 Hundreds and the current existence. 80 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:21.079 In the existence. However, if a man is married and 81 00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:25.800 his wife passes away or whatever, and he decides to 82 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:28.879 marry again, that that polygamy is viewed in the church 83 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:32.720 as still valid, still continuing. When he marries the second wife, 84 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:34.879 they're going to be, in the words of the Church, 85 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:39.439 sealed together, not only in this world but in the next. 86 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:43.439 And that causes a lot of trauma for people that 87 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:48.120 are currently in the church that that exists. And you 88 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:52.759 had numerous people and testimonials of people that have talked 89 00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:56.120 about that and their own personal experience such as such 90 00:05:56.160 --> 00:06:00.399 a myriad of different ways that has shown up and 91 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:04.319 traumatized people in their lives. Yeah, when we're not here 92 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:07.639 to really bash the Mormon Church as much as that 93 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:12.959 particular doctrine right is one that is really out of 94 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:13.839 alignment with. 95 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:18.600 What there is there is indeed from my point of 96 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:21.040 view in my long experience, and I am still active 97 00:06:21.079 --> 00:06:27.519 in my ward, but the church that I know in general, 98 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:30.079 you know that the church that I live in, especially 99 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:33.639 down here at the bottom in the ward, in the stake, 100 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:41.079 is such a really beneficial experience, and the community is 101 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:48.360 so devoted and such excellent human beings that they they 102 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:54.319 we deserve better than to be haunted by this indefensible 103 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:56.040 doctrine right. 104 00:06:56.120 --> 00:07:00.600 And it raises so many questions about, you know, or 105 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:03.839 fear that people. It creates fear about people like what 106 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:06.600 will happen if I do die and my husband chooses 107 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:10.000 to marry someone else for women or vice versa, and 108 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:13.519 then also for children, like how how will that change 109 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:16.680 our lives or our relationships? And so all of that 110 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:20.600 fear becomes, like you said, it really doesn't serve any 111 00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:21.800 purpose whatsoever. 112 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:25.040 No, presents a tremendous amount of confusion. 113 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:28.160 Yeah, and you know, it's been a long time that 114 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:31.079 the Church has has said, you know, we no longer 115 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:34.480 practice polygamy. In the physical world where we live, men 116 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:37.800 can't have multiple wives, et cetera, et cetera. However, like 117 00:07:37.879 --> 00:07:41.639 we were saying, there is this underlying belief that it does. 118 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:43.879 It is still a doctor and we just don't practice 119 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:46.199 it because we know that if we do, it's going 120 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:49.040 to be a problem legally, the government's going to come 121 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:50.920 down on us, et cetera, et cetera, which is what 122 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:53.920 happened back in those days, and we all come from 123 00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:55.519 that experience in. 124 00:07:55.600 --> 00:08:00.240 Cure and polygamy delayed is still a polygamy. Yes, So 125 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:03.399 it is really love that it is really not correct 126 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:06.879 for the church to say we no longer practice polygamy. 127 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:08.680 We delay polygamy. 128 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:11.160 We delay it so until it's time for it to 129 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:15.160 come back again. Is the kind of the underlying message 130 00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:15.879 that that happened, of. 131 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:21.920 Course, well, delayed until we're in this spirit world where 132 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:23.600 it will flourish. 133 00:08:23.800 --> 00:08:27.959 Well, what would happen possibly if if the legal system 134 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:30.600 did say it was okay, would we go back and 135 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:32.000 practice it in the physical world. 136 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:35.799 I wonder, I sure don't know that, but that's never 137 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:39.840 going to happen to have that become a legal option. 138 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:44.639 Right, Well, I think it's Your book was so beautifully 139 00:08:44.679 --> 00:08:49.120 done and just expressed so many stories, and it really 140 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:53.600 highlighted the anxiety and stress that people go through. And 141 00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:57.320 I loved how you just kept reiterating that through all 142 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:01.440 of this, the better union for men and women is 143 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:04.600 to come to a place of partnership and to be 144 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:09.720 in partnership together and to really contribute to each

other's 145 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:15.080 wholeness and wellness, both spiritually and mentally and emotionally and physically. 146 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:19.919 And so that was the takeaway that I had. And 147 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:23.399 as we've had conversations with some family members and friends 148 00:09:23.960 --> 00:09:29.440 that are LDS and know about polygamy, it was interesting 149 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:33.240 how there's a myriad of ways people justify it, and 150 00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:37.519 they add to their story things like, well, I'll get 151 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:40.279 to choose in heaven if my husband can have a 152 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:43.639 second wife. And I'm like, is that true? Is that 153 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:47.720 part of the doctrine that you get to that you 154 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:50.720 get to trump that choice that you can opt out 155 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:53.679 in heaven. But I think it's just ways people have 156 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:59.559 created that safety within themselves to coexist with what is uncomfortable. 157 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:06.159 Of course, so I think before we go too far 158 00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:09.639 and get too far into it. We did talk about 159 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:13.120 this a little bit in the last episode, and people 160 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:15.240 can go back and refer that. But you know, if 161 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:18.559 someone's showing up here doesn't know anything about Mormonism, doesn't 162 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:22.080 know anything really about polygamy and the connection there, would 163 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:24.879 you mind speaking to it just a little bit, giving 164 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:29.279 some kind of context for people to have an idea 165 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:31.960 what we're really even going to be discussing here today. 166 00:10:32.919 --> 00:10:37.879 Sure well. Plural marriage was something that was first established 167 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:40.440 in the Church of Jesus Christ the Latter to Saints 168 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:44.840 by the founding prophet Joseph Smith way back in the 169 00:10:44.919 --> 00:10:51.759 first part of the eighteen hundreds and when he and 170 00:10:51.799 --> 00:10:55.879 there's lots of information these days about exactly how that 171 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:59.440 happened and the stories of the wives that he took 172 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:04.879 tremendous amount of research that's gone into all that, But 173 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:09.519 somehow he determined that he was being called to bring 174 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:17.159 back the old Old Testament version of marriage that was 175 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:23.759 called plural marriage or spiritual wifery or all the confusing 176 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:29.600 words that came around in trying to make sense of that, 177 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:40.000 and he ultimately did have sealed to him probably up 178 00:11:40.039 --> 00:11:44.000 to forty women. Not all of them may have been 179 00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:51.840 wives in actual physical proximity and with sexual encounters, but 180 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:58.679 many of them were, that is firmed. And so as 181 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:05.919 we know, Joseph Myth was killed in eighteen forty four 182 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:11.759 and the Saints were really the Latter Day Saints were 183 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:18.360 in disarray, and Brigham Young took the headship, and as 184 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:23.440 most people know if they know Western history, the Mormons 185 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:28.240 set out from Nauvoo, Illinois to settle in a place 186 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:33.320 where they could safely practice their religion, and so they 187 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:38.240 ended up in the Salt Lake Valley under Brigham Young, 188 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:43.080 and Brigham Young and a number of the high ranking 189 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:47.840 men in the church when Joseph was still alive, did 190 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:53.039 take the practice of pollingha mean. Joseph assured them that 191 00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:57.360 this was essential for being able to enter into the 192 00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:03.840 highest degree of the celestial Kingdom in the next life 193 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:11.960 heaven yep. And so when they were safely established in 194 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:19.240 Salt Lake City, this practice became no longer hidden from 195 00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:22.559 the world or hidden from even members of some members 196 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:27.000 of the church, but it was brought out into the 197 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:30.799 open and it was celebrated, and Brigham Young, in fact, 198 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:37.000 as we've sort of referenced here, taught people that that 199 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:41.799 it was essential that they live in this covenant called 200 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:50.840 the plurality of wives in order to be really capable 201 00:13:51.080 --> 00:13:55.480 in the next life, the eternity that we're moving into, 202 00:13:56.559 --> 00:14:02.480 to to move forward and multiply and establish their own worlds. 203 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:05.759 Even that's you know, a concept that's sort of been 204 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:08.519 put aside now of becoming you know, a god over 205 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:14.879 your own world. But there was the firm conviction that 206 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:18.559 a man who refused to take a second wife or 207 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:22.679 a third or whatever was going to have lesser glory 208 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:26.039 in the next life. In fact, as long as we've 209 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:28.480 brought that up, what you were mentioning a little bit 210 00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:34.720 ago was bringing Young saying specifically at a conference up 211 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:38.840 in Paris, Idaho, that to the men who are reluctant 212 00:14:38.919 --> 00:14:42.279 to take

a second wife, if you do not, you 213 00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:45.080 will find when you get to heaven that you will 214 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:49.720 have not only that you will have not even the 215 00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:53.360 one wife that you first took, you'll be without any 216 00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:57.279 wife at all. Yes, So it was it was that strong. 217 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:01.600 That's a huge fear of a of a doctrine and 218 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:08.879 of an expectation, and almost all of the male leadership 219 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:12.679 in Salt Lake City and the other areas that Brigham 220 00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:18.799 Young established, nearly all the leaders were polygamists. Very few 221 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:23.759 were able to maintain having a high position and not 222 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:25.039 taking a second wife. 223 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:32.080 It was fascinating as we read the story, actually just 224 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:37.399 moving to both of us, because that talk that Brigham 225 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:42.639 Young gave in the Paris Tabernacle in Bare Lake, Idaho 226 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.840 is where our ancestors are from. It's where polygamy in 227 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:52.039 both of our families occurred. And for myself, my great 228 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:55.200 grandfather's name was Amos Wright, and he came from also 229 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:58.120 a polygamist father who had I believe it was five wives. 230 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:04.000 Jonathan Culkin's right. He came from Navu, Illinois, across the plains. 231 00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:08.480 Amos was ten years old walking across and as a pioneer. 232 00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:13.559 Then after that talk that Brigham Young came to Paris, 233 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:18.360 and did he married his second wife? I'm just looking 234 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:22.879 at it here in eighteen eighty five, that definitely would 235 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:25.960 have been after that talk that Brigham Young gave, because 236 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:29.919 I don't even remember how long he was alive after 237 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.960 he came here, but it would have been after that, yes, 238 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:37.720 And I would imagine that he would have participated in 239 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:39.360 that in some way, because if he was in the 240 00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:41.879 Bear Lake Valley. My great grandfather came to the Bear 241 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.720 Lake Valley in eighteen sixty three. Yeah, so from eighteen 242 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:47.919 sixty three and then so it was twenty two years 243 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:52.159 later that he then married his second wife, and he 244 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:55.720 would have been there for that talk without a doubt 245 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:59.720 if Brigham Young the prophet came to speak in. 246 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:03.720 Yes, and my great grandfather certainly was there too, and 247

00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:08.039 that was the I'm certain that was the impetus that 248 00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:11.440 he had not until that point taken a second wife, 249 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:13.799 and after that he did. 250 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:17.440 With my great grandfather, there had also been some trauma 251 00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:22.039 between him and his father because he was sent away. 252 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:25.160 Amos the younger, his son, was sent away on a mission, 253 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:30.480 and when he came back, his father had wed this 254 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:33.480 girl that he had an eye for, and his father 255 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:35.519 knew he had an eye for this girl, and his 256 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:38.160 father had taken her as a wife when he got back, 257 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:41.000 and from that point on, of course, their relationship was 258 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:43.440 a little strained. At that point, well. 259 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:49.680 There is so much underlying confusion and pain and many 260 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:55.160 things just distress over this. There's I truly do not 261 00:17:55.279 --> 00:18:00.720 see one way to defend it, not one now. 262 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:03.359 And you had done a lot of research, because we 263 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:07.359 learned in the book that you had been asked to 264 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:12.519 write a script for a movie for a movie about 265 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:15.640 Joseph Smith and his life, and so you had done 266 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:19.160 a lot of research into many aspects of Joseph's life 267 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:23.440 and knew kind of how this all came about. So 268 00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:28.519 as you look at that historical aspect, did it change 269 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:32.000 from the time what Joseph perceived it to be to 270 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:36.279 what Brigham Young then had it continue to flourish and 271 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:39.960 be once they got to Utah? Or was it the same? 272 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:42.440 Well? 273 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:46.559 I think essentially it was the same in that it 274 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:56.880 was just a spiritual requirement for true progress. And I'm 275 00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:03.359 sure that Brigham Young really hammered it down much more 276 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.440 than Joseph did, because Brigham could do it in the open. 277 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:08.759 A little more free out here. 278 00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:11.599 Yeah, you know, And I wish I could read each 279 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:14.599 of their minds to see precisely sure how they were 280 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:21.039 perceiving this, But somehow the and the end result was 281 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:28.119 the same, of the the the desperate distress that so 282 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:32.119 many of these women were under when you know, when 283 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:37.039 when Joseph invited these

young women to become his wives 284 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:42.119 and promised them that if if they did, that would 285 00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:45.000 mean the eternal salvation in the Highest Kingdom for not 286 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:52.680 only them, but their entire family, ancestors, posterity, everything. So 287 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:57.160 there was there was all that enormous pressure going on 288 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:02.880 and and the the the major amount of that continued 289 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:08.640 through you know, through the entirety of the of the 290 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:14.519 saints being in Utah until, of course, what they they 291 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.839 abandoned polygamy in order to have Utah become a state 292 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:23.039 or else the government was about to to take away 293 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:29.519 all of their their properties, they had no recourse except 294 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:36.759 to abandon the immediate current practice of polygamy. Though it 295 00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:39.759 went underground and there were there were a lot of 296 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:47.000 polygamous marriages that were sustained after after that that it 297 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:48.240 was supposedly given up. 298 00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:53.440 Yeah, that's interesting because when it when it was dissolved 299 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:56.359 or when they said no more polygamy, those that had 300 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:01.799 multiple wives obviously didn't abandon families and wife. They maintained it. 301 00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:06.400 But you're saying that they continued underground additional marriages and 302 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:09.519 polygamous practices. 303 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:10.200 Yeah. 304 00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:14.079 Yeah, one of the stories in your book that I 305 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:19.039 thought was interesting from your own personal family. Your ancestor 306 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:22.359 and I can't remember the names, was living in Paris, Idaho, 307 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:26.799 I believe I remember right. James Oki, Yes, and he 308 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:32.599 was called to begin to practice polygamy and his wife 309 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:36.440 refused that. And so if you wouldn't mind just go 310 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:38.279 into that just a little bit, and how that showed 311 00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:40.519 up in your own personal story in your own family. 312 00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:44.799 Sure, And I wish I had all the details of this. 313 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:48.720 I wish that my ancestress had written this challenge. Yeah, 314 00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:52.359 I wish I had pages that showed how my great 315 00:21:52.400 --> 00:22:00.400 grandmother felt. All I know is that there was they 316 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:04.680 that couple, James and Mary Okie. They did not James 317 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:08.880 did not take a second wife for quite a long time. 318 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:14.079 And I know it was uh it was she had 319 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:18.039 said to him. However it was said, I don't know, 320 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:20.400 but it was clear that her position was she would 321 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:24.200 not countenance that. But then when Brigham Young made this 322 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:29.200 strong statement publicly in Paris, in Paris, Idaho, and they 323 00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:36.039 were up there, living right in the area, when Brigham 324 00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:38.680 Young made that statement that a man who refuses will 325 00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:44.759 find himself with no wife in Heaven. I'm not sure 326 00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:48.039 exactly how long after that they that he took a 327 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:54.720 second wife and his his first wife, my great grandmother, 328 00:22:55.440 --> 00:23:01.839 left him. And I can't imagine the pain that was 329 00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:07.559 going on throughout the entire family because of that. And 330 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:11.440 this would have played out differently in every different family, 331 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:17.359 but there was always some measure of pain involved, I believe. 332 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:23.119 Yeah, yeah, And just in the context of what was 333 00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:26.759 happening in that period of time, the bear Lake Valley 334 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.319 is it was at that point pretty remote. I mean, 335 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:33.039 it wasn't accessible. I don't think the railroad had come 336 00:23:33.079 --> 00:23:36.640 into bear Lake, the bear Lake Valley, yet the Oregon 337 00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:39.640 Trail came right through bear Lake, so that that Oregon 338 00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:44.039 Trail comes through actually right through Montpellier, and and so 339 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:47.079 you know, people are passing through that area. But the 340 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:51.960 context of that being so remote and bringing me young 341 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:55.200 actually coming there to get there, he didn't come by train. 342 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:57.359 He would have had have been on a horse or 343 00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:01.119 a you know, a stagecoach or stage wagoner. However, it 344 00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:04.799 was then to actually arrive in the valley, and so 345 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:07.839 the things that were being practiced in those outlying areas. 346 00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:10.079 Things got kind of crazy. I mean, you couldn't just 347 00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:12.920 pick up the phone and call call Salt Lake and say, hey, 348 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:14.599 what should we do here? What should we do there? 349 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:18.559 So in those outlying areas theme things seem to get 350 00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:23.720 just a little bit skewed. And I think there's even 351 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:28.640 even the residual of that experience in those outlying areas, 352

00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:32.000 And the trauma that was experienced through the families continues. 353 00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:37.799 It continues in the culture of those families, in the 354 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:42.839 way they relate to women, in the way that women 355 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:46.319 and men relate to each other. That still, I can 356 00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:50.720 only speak for my own family, but I that that 357 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:56.519 I know is a factor in that. And I came 358 00:24:56.559 --> 00:24:59.839 from a family of mostly brothers, come from a family 359 00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:03.240 of eat and so my brothers and I we've had 360 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:05.880 lots of different kinds of discussions about this, and we 361 00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:11.240 were all kind of morphed in our our beliefs, each 362 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:14.559 of us, some still in the church, some of us out. 363 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:20.799 But you know, in looking at that experience, we don't 364 00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:24.519 it still hasn't been reconciled right. 365 00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:30.799 And somehow or other we might have genetic memory of 366 00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:34.839 trauma that our family way back and back and back 367 00:25:34.839 --> 00:25:37.960 and back, has delivered to us. 368 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:41.880 I wouldn't even say, might pardon me, I wouldn't even say, 369 00:25:42.039 --> 00:25:48.000 might have you think genetic memory? There's research done about 370 00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:50.759 DNA that I think that absolutely is. 371 00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:56.000 And so you know that my body might even right 372 00:25:56.039 --> 00:26:01.400 now be experiencing in the some cellular way the pain 373 00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:06.119 that my ancestors experienced. Absolutely, and this would would not 374 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:08.359 have been the only terrible thing that happened in the 375 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:11.240 hundreds of years, back and back and back. But this 376 00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:14.680 is the one that we're focusing on and that I 377 00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:19.720 think continuous in our community, in our Mormon Latter day 378 00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:24.640 Saint community. And see, we're talking about the past right now, 379 00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:33.839 really essentially, and coming to terms with the past is 380 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:37.960 not really an easy thing, and it's not easy to 381 00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:45.920 understand why people would insist that this is a godly command. 382 00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:52.839 But however, we deal with the past, that is the past. 383 00:26:53.440 --> 00:27:00.400 And my focus in this book and essentially in everything 384 00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:04.319 that I really think about, is so what about now? 385 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:11.519 What about today? And besides the genetic harm that is 386 00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:17.240 still carried in our cells from the trauma

that went 387 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:25.359 through with this really horrendous practice, that's one thing. But 388 00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:32.559 the thing that to me is absolutely so irresponsible and 389 00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:42.920 so horrendous is the damage that is done today, right now, immediately, 390 00:27:43.240 --> 00:27:48.920 this moment, for so many latter day saint devoted women 391 00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:56.160 and men who are told that this principle is an 392 00:27:56.200 --> 00:28:00.160 eternal one and is in some way God's faith. I've 393 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:06.039 wrote highest form of marriage and that if you are 394 00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:10.200 sufficiently righteous, this will be your lot in the eternities. 395 00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:12.960 When I was in high school, it was made very 396 00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:16.160 clear to us through seminary teaching and all of that, 397 00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:20.559 that if we were sufficiently righteous, we young women to 398 00:28:20.599 --> 00:28:23.880 whom this might sound strange right now, but when we 399 00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:28.559 are in the eternities, if we are sufficiently righteous, we 400 00:28:28.599 --> 00:28:32.279 will yearn to live this practice. I remember the day 401 00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:37.759 that my seminary teacher used that phrase. He was explaining 402 00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:40.559 to us. This was the first day of school, and 403 00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:44.240 I was a senior in high school, Brigham Young University 404 00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:48.039 High School in Provo, Utah, and I remember sitting there. 405 00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:53.279 He was introducing himself and told about himself about his wife, 406 00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:56.519 and he said, and this is my second wife, and 407 00:28:57.039 --> 00:28:59.720 I am sealed to this wife of mine. Now I'm 408 00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:02.279 also healed to the wife that I had who died 409 00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:05.640 some years ago. And I want you students to understand 410 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:08.640 that when I know, I know beyond any doubt that 411 00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:12.680 when I receipt, when I get into this into the eternities, 412 00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:15.559 I will claim both of these women as my wives. 413 00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:21.480 And that is the that is the marriage covenant that 414 00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:25.759 the Lord has as our highest highest goal. And I 415 00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:31.680 know this sounds strange, especially you young women, but as 416 00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:36.720 you become less selfish, as you become more experienced in 417 00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:40.839 spiritual matters, you will understand the beauty of this principle 418 00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:43.359 and you will yearn to live it. That was just 419 00:29:43.559 --> 00:29:46.920 emblazoned on my mind. I can remember where I was sitting, 420 00:29:47.240 --> 00:29:49.880 I can remember the suit he was wearing because it 421 00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:54.039 shocked me, even though I knew something about polygamy, but 422 00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:57.119 the way that was put shocked me. And I remember 423 00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:00.920 walking home and that was the first time there was 424 00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:07.920 a rift between me and God. Because of course, of 425 00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:12.799 course my seminary teacher was a representative of God. He 426 00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:15.599 would not tell me something that's not true. This is 427 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:19.079 what God wants from me. And so that was the 428 00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:27.359 opening of my investigation and my personal heartbreak and ultimately 429 00:30:28.039 --> 00:30:33.400 my rejection of this principle. Because I know, beyond a 430 00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:36.599 shadow of a doubt, I bear you my witness that 431 00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:44.279 this principle is nonsense. God was never behind Mormon polygamy, 432 00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:52.359 never behind Joseph Smith's decision to enter into this practice. 433 00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:56.119 God has nothing to do with the idea of eternal 434 00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:01.839 plural marriage. I know that to be true. But because 435 00:31:01.960 --> 00:31:10.359 I am free of any confusion about that does not 436 00:31:10.519 --> 00:31:15.720 mean that other people still have their own concept of that. 437 00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:18.720 And of course, who am I. I'm just one person. 438 00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:23.119 Maybe maybe God really does have this bigger plan than 439 00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:26.920 I'm just I'm just way off on it. Believe me, 440 00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:29.480 I would rather go to some other kingdom than the 441 00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:33.480 one that is practicing polygamy. But what I have learned 442 00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:39.559 over these many years is that so many, and I 443 00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:49.160 think most and probably almost all of Mormon couples have distress. 444 00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:52.359 If they have been married in the temple, if they 445 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:55.640 really truly believe everything that they have been taught about 446 00:31:55.680 --> 00:32:02.920 polygamy and their future that involves it, I think there 447 00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:09.160 is distress. And that's why I wrote this book, and 448 00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:14.480 just to introduce how how that happened. I I was 449 00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:18.279 finally just you know, hearing you know, ever since I 450 00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:21.359 became a writer, since I became sort of well known 451 00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:27.240 in the Mormon community, hmm. I got letters from women, 452 00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:33.319 especially letters and and then emails from women telling me 453 00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:39.119 their sorrows, and this thing about polygamy was always high 454 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:44.160 on the list of things that

was devastating to Mormon 455 00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:50.400 women that that I heard from. And even though I 456 00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:53.519 had personally come to peace with it, and come to 457 00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:57.720 peace with a God that never commanded it, would never 458 00:32:57.880 --> 00:33:03.240 countenance it. I realized that so many of my sisters 459 00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:08.839 especially were in great pain about something that to me 460 00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:14.200 was just absurd that they should have to carry it 461 00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:18.279 within them, and so I just took it upon myself. 462 00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:23.720 I just felt called to do something about this, this 463 00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:27.720 terrible thing, and so I jumped in it and did 464 00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:34.000 research and sent out a survey to Mormon ex Mormon 465 00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:39.240 active and not women and men asking for their views 466 00:33:39.319 --> 00:33:46.480 on the disparity in the ceiling opportunities between men and 467 00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:50.759 women and the idea of eternal polygamy. And to my surprise, 468 00:33:50.839 --> 00:33:53.359 I was flooded. The first day we had to think 469 00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:57.599 we had like seventeen hundred responses. That was just astonished me. 470 00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:00.440 And I'm told this is really like one of the 471 00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:05.400 I guess the largest survey that was responded to of 472 00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:09.840 all kinds of Mormon issues. But by the end of 473 00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:12.639 the when we just said, I took it down. A 474 00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:24.639 month later, we had over seven thousand responses. Oh and 475 00:34:24.679 --> 00:34:27.159 there were a few. There were some that said, you know, 476 00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:29.719 just just don't worry about it. You know, God has 477 00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:32.159 this all figured out. However it works out, it's just 478 00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:38.199 going to be fine. But the huge, huge majority expressed 479 00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:41.920 enormous pain. And I had an invitation for them to 480 00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:48.320 tell their stories. There's a totally anonymous of course, and 481 00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:51.559 so I spent a summer going reading through about two 482 00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:57.039 or three thousand little stories, some some long, rambling stories, 483 00:34:57.280 --> 00:35:02.679 some very short, just few sentences, and I just chose 484 00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:07.079 those that expressed the ongoing themes that they were all 485 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:12.599 talking about. And so I created this book that was 486 00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:16.719 my personal story, that was something of a general history 487 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:22.880 of Mormon polygamy, and that was essentially punctuated by these 488 00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:30.119 current stories, these painful paragraphs

of women and men throughout 489 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:36.000 the church today, whose lives have been damaged by this 490 00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:39.599 horrendous teaching. 491 00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:45.920 Whose lives have been damaged, and who ended marriages, you know, 492 00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:51.000 absolutely a marriage that could have well been right for them, 493 00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:54.840 but the circumstances just haunt I love to use the 494 00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:59.239 word haunted me because it truly haunted them and put 495 00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:02.199 such fear in their hearts. Like some of the letters 496 00:36:02.199 --> 00:36:05.000 as we were reading them, they made me emotional because 497 00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:10.800 I could feel that underlying lack of safety in one 498 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:14.239 of the most important relationships in their lives, of course, 499 00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:18.039 and so they would opt to leave it and marry 500 00:36:18.119 --> 00:36:21.039 someone who was not of the faith, just in order 501 00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:27.519 to truly engage and give their heart to someone without 502 00:36:27.559 --> 00:36:29.000 feeling like it would be shadowed. 503 00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:32.239 That's just unthinkable. Yeah, it was that. The devastation of 504 00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:34.159 that is irredeemable. 505 00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:37.960 It really is, because it's a union that we're meant 506 00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:43.119 to experience and have fullness of, and yet this prevents 507 00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:43.639 that from it. 508 00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:49.880 And I still get emails from women several I'm remembering 509 00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:53.440 right now that after they had read the book, such 510 00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:58.800 a load was taken from them, and one I remember saying, 511 00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:02.639 when my husband finished reading The Ghost Eternal Polygamy, he 512 00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:07.559 just wept because for the first time he understood what 513 00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:10.719 I had felt all this time. And she went on 514 00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:14.760 to say, as as so many have written to me, saying, 515 00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:19.159 I loved my husband with all my heart, but I 516 00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:26.880 have been prevented from giving him my entire heart because 517 00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:31.159 of my fear and my expectation that sometime in the 518 00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:34.519 next world I will have to share with him, that 519 00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:37.840 I would have to watch him experience with other women 520 00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:41.800 what he and I are experiencing now. And she said, 521 00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:46.840 I would give anything to have those years back where 522 00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:52.480 I withheld my heart from my husband. See, that's that's horrendous, 523 00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:56.599 that that's inexcusable. Yeah, and then you know, I looked 524 00:37:56.679 --> 00:37:59.920 up whether or not that was legally what's what's the 525 00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:09.119 word interference and what's the phrase of that emotional alienation 526 00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:13.440 something like that. I actually look that up and this 527 00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:19.119 would not legally count, but it is. It is inexcusable 528 00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:25.239 emotional alienation between married partners in excuse me. 529 00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:27.760 Well, and even for men too, you know, the fact 530 00:38:27.800 --> 00:38:30.840 that they can't fully give to one because they have 531 00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:34.480 to give a little bit effort to multiple ones, and 532 00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:37.760 then just the trauma that it sets between the women. 533 00:38:38.119 --> 00:38:43.800 It just it really creates a very negative environment for 534 00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:45.199 anyone that participates. 535 00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:48.360 Of course, and one of my first chapters there is 536 00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:52.679 going through I think about ten or twelve reasons that 537 00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:57.039 people have brought come up with the reasons why polygamy existed, 538 00:38:57.719 --> 00:39:01.880 and none of them hold water. No of them hold water. 539 00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:04.239 You know, even this one that says we it will 540 00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:08.519 to multiply and replenish the earth, we need that. No. 541 00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:16.159 In Salt Lake history, women who were not polygamousts actually 542 00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:20.519 more more children than women who were polygamists. And the 543 00:39:20.559 --> 00:39:24.039 whole thing is just absurd from top to bottom, except 544 00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:26.800 when you say that God commanded it, and I have 545 00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:31.000 authority to tell you God commanded it, and the people 546 00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:39.400 who heartbreakingly believe that, Yeah, it's inexcusable. Yeah, there's no 547 00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:40.239 excuse for it. 548 00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:45.320 You know, the Mormon churches is I wouldn't say unique, 549 00:39:45.400 --> 00:39:49.719 but maybe they go deeper with this concept than a 550 00:39:49.719 --> 00:39:59.079 lot of different religions. And that is the concept of covenants, ordinances, obedience, 551 00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:05.119 and when we go down the road of those kinds 552 00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:12.920 of things in a religious sense, it's when you talk 553 00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:16.119 about covenants that are made for specific reasons, et cetera, 554 00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:18.800 et cetera, et cetera, that even today that what the 555 00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:21.360 church is talking about, the leadership of the church is 556 00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:23.639 talking about. They started this, I don't know how many 557 00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:26.320 years ago, a few years back, talking about people

being 558 00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:30.320 on the covenant path, being on the covenant path right 559 00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:34.400 is obedience to these laws like we're talking about right now. 560 00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:39.480 And my own experience I left the church many years ago. 561 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:42.639 My own experience of coming out of the church, which 562 00:40:42.679 --> 00:40:45.559 is kind of a much more of a tunnel vision 563 00:40:45.559 --> 00:40:50.000 of living, was a wide open view of living life. 564 00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:54.119 And what I had a somewhat what I call an 565 00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:57.480 awakening in two thousand and eight when I had that 566 00:40:57.599 --> 00:41:04.639 experience was an experience of feeling and embodying and being 567 00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:10.159 present with this love that was beyond words that I 568 00:41:10.159 --> 00:41:13.119 could describe. There wasn't someone standing in front of me 569 00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:16.599 saying I'm God and you need to worship me or 570 00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:20.599 anything like that. It was a feeling and that feeling 571 00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:26.039 of love that shared between men and women in relationship 572 00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:30.599 and everything. It's so far beyond what that is that 573 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:36.000 I described it as an energy or a presence or 574 00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:43.280 a beingness that emanates from some source. What that source is, 575 00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:47.239 I don't purport to know or try to tell someone 576 00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:49.519 that they need to believe it to be anything in particular, 577 00:41:50.199 --> 00:41:53.719 but whatever that source is, that's where we all and 578 00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:58.920 everything that exists in the universe came from. Sure, and 579 00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:05.360 that is this emanating energy is love, and if we 580 00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:08.039 try to say that we need to live up to 581 00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:11.559 it and obey something in order to be worthy of 582 00:42:11.800 --> 00:42:14.880 that or to be able to enter back into that, 583 00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:20.719 I'd use my Idaho farm boy language to describe what 584 00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:24.239 that is if I wanted to. But it's just not 585 00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:29.400 true that love is unconditional, and in that moment, I 586 00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:33.199 felt that it was unconditional. And if it is unconditional, 587 00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:37.920 what we do and how we obey and whether or 588 00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:41.840 not we sin or we you know, do all of 589 00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:46.400 these things is irrelevant to that love, because all those 590 00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:49.480 are just lessons to help bring us to a space 591 00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:56.159 of remembering who we are, and who we are is that. Yeah, 592 00:42:56.320 --> 00:43:01.199 within we're hearing this meat suit walking around

trying to 593 00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:05.760 navigate and find our way, and sometimes we get stuck 594 00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:11.599 in these systems that limit our view. And that's what 595 00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:18.119 I'm talking about in particular Mormonism, I'm talking about belief 596 00:43:18.119 --> 00:43:21.159 systems in general. When we can open ourselves up to 597 00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:27.199 that beingness of what unconditional love is, all that other 598 00:43:27.239 --> 00:43:32.800 stuff just becomes ancillario. It's not important. But we do 599 00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:36.039 have to approach each one of them individually, whatever they are. 600 00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:40.599 And this one in particular within the church especially, is 601 00:43:40.760 --> 00:43:43.159 one that we've got to We've got to shine a 602 00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:45.679 light on and look at in a particular way so 603 00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:49.840 that we can have that realization that those covenants and 604 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:53.280 that obedience and all that stuff. It's I had a 605 00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:58.079 whole farm about bory language. It rhymes with bs. It's 606 00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:04.719 just not real that that love is what what's real. 607 00:44:04.760 --> 00:44:08.079 It's that is the essence of everything. It's in all 608 00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:11.000 these plants in your room, and it's in you, and 609 00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:13.800 it's in me and in the entire universe. It's what 610 00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:16.320 keeps all this thing in form we. 611 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:22.480 Have going, certainly, and God is love. Yes, that's that's 612 00:44:22.519 --> 00:44:27.360 really the best phrase that I have come across that. 613 00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:33.239 And so wherever we find something that is truly resonates 614 00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:36.719 with love, we know that we are that that is Godness. 615 00:44:38.199 --> 00:44:41.880 And wherever we come against into something that we know 616 00:44:42.039 --> 00:44:47.119 we know does not feel loving, we know that God 617 00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:47.760 is not there. 618 00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:48.760 Yeah. Right. 619 00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:55.199 And in the subject that we're talking about, I do 620 00:44:55.320 --> 00:45:02.519 have enormous respect for the marriage relationship, and I think 621 00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:10.159 the gift of love that is established in that union 622 00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:19.159 is so profound and so demanding of protection that anything 623 00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:24.840 that gets in the way of that relationship being as 624 00:45:25.119 --> 00:45:32.199 fully protected and loving and nourished and not interfered with 625 00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:36.760 by anybody on the outside, says I have authority to 626 00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:43.880 tell you or to meddle around with your relationship. That's 627 00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:48.559 meddling around with love, which

is meddling around with Godness. 628 00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:55.039 And we just we have to get I think, more 629 00:45:55.320 --> 00:46:06.519 simple and more clear about trusting our own feelings. You know, yes, 630 00:46:06.679 --> 00:46:11.639 we All of the people whose stories I received that 631 00:46:11.719 --> 00:46:15.199 I put in that book, they knew that something was wrong, 632 00:46:16.119 --> 00:46:20.719 something was wrong. But God wants it that way. And 633 00:46:21.840 --> 00:46:25.599 our little speck of Godness that is within us has 634 00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:29.079 to resonate with the large God that we know as 635 00:46:29.119 --> 00:46:33.599 the source of everything. Yes, and so somehow we have 636 00:46:33.639 --> 00:46:38.559 to have the courage that when we when we are 637 00:46:38.679 --> 00:46:43.679 told something, when we are commanded to do something that 638 00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:50.880 does not feel wholly in line with the Godness that 639 00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:56.519 we know that's a part of our own beingness, we 640 00:46:56.639 --> 00:47:00.679 have to have the courage to reject that, because God 641 00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:07.079 is love, and love will only make us feel comfortable 642 00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:18.559 and and and unique. You know, we we the relationship 643 00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:22.480 of a man and a woman should be unique without 644 00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:27.519 anybody bothering it, nobody getting into the mix and saying, oh, 645 00:47:27.559 --> 00:47:33.039 you need to do things this way. We we should 646 00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:41.599 understand our our divine uniqueness, our divine personal authority, and 647 00:47:41.679 --> 00:47:47.760 our personal authority is damaged with this concept called plural marriage. 648 00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:52.440 Yeah, you kind of answered the question I was going 649 00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:54.480 to ask you, is that if you were talking to 650 00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:57.400 a group of young women today that are active in 651 00:47:57.440 --> 00:48:00.960 the church centce you're still active in it, and you 652 00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:03.800 you said you came to the conclusion where you know 653 00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:07.639 that this is not from the God that you have 654 00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:11.920 your relationship with. And having that conversation with a group 655 00:48:11.960 --> 00:48:15.440 of young women, you just basically answered that saying, if 656 00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:19.480 it doesn't resonate and speak to you about the godness 657 00:48:19.480 --> 00:48:23.199 that you feel for you to rely more on that 658 00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:28.239 personal relationship and your personal answer than the ant that 659 00:48:28.519 --> 00:48:31.920 is inside you for you and your relationships, then for 660 00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:33.519 the answer that is outside of. 661 00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:38.679 You, of course, And another great phrase, the Kingdom of

662 00:48:38.679 --> 00:48:44.400 God is within, and this withinness that we are and 663 00:48:44.440 --> 00:48:47.079 that sometimes we've been told to ignore that in favor 664 00:48:47.119 --> 00:48:52.159 of somebody's authority on the outside. The Kingdom of God 665 00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:56.480 is within. Yes, and we do have and we know 666 00:48:56.559 --> 00:48:59.039 when we're going to when we're doing something that's hurtful 667 00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:03.639 or something that it's stupid. We have an understanding of that, 668 00:49:05.239 --> 00:49:13.760 so to rely on our own authority, knowing that when 669 00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:18.559 we see our own actions bringing goodness and kindness and 670 00:49:18.679 --> 00:49:22.920 love and all of the things that Jesus taught, we 671 00:49:23.039 --> 00:49:27.880 know that we're behaving from the highest law, which is love, 672 00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:28.719 which is God. 673 00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:36.639 I love that you use the word unique because there's 674 00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:43.199 eight billion uniquenesses walking around on this planet who are 675 00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:48.079 a particle or a fractal of that thing that we 676 00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:53.920 call God, and they're each having their own unique experience 677 00:49:53.960 --> 00:49:59.800 as individuals. But I believe that it's extremely important for 678 00:49:59.880 --> 00:50:03.239 us us We can't we can we are whole as 679 00:50:03.280 --> 00:50:08.719 an individual. However, we can experience an expansive wholeness when 680 00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:13.639 we come into relationship with someone else where they become 681 00:50:13.719 --> 00:50:20.360 our mirror where there were open in every way physically, mentally, spiritually, 682 00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:24.079 emotionally with that other individual and they are with me 683 00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:29.320 to that complete giving of all of those things together, 684 00:50:29.440 --> 00:50:33.000 so that we can mirror everything. And something like this, 685 00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:36.360 when there's a reservation, it's like I can't give my 686 00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:39.639 whole heart because there's a possibility I might have to. 687 00:50:39.719 --> 00:50:43.840 In my belief system, share my husband with someone else later, 688 00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:50.480 and so I'm limiting my capacity to be in that wholeness. 689 00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:52.159 That's a violation. 690 00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:56.760 It's a violation and our experience. You know, we're not 691 00:50:56.920 --> 00:50:59.920 perfect as a couple by any means. We but who is? 692 00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:04.280 No one is. But we do have a mutual respect 693 00:51:04.360 --> 00:51:09.480 for each other. Two be mirrors for each other even 694 00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:13.440 when it's not easy, and to point things out for 695 00:51:13.519 --> 00:51:17.480 each other even when it's not easy, because we know 696 00:51:17.559 --> 00:51:21.559 that as individuals will grow that way, and especially as 697 00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:27.239 a united partnership will grow together that way. Sure, yeah, 698 00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:29.159 it's important. 699 00:51:30.119 --> 00:51:33.679 So, Carolyn, do you have a favorite passage from the 700 00:51:33.719 --> 00:51:34.960 book that you'd like to share. 701 00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:40.480 I would like to share with you the last two 702 00:51:40.480 --> 00:51:43.320 and a half pages of this book, the Ghost of 703 00:51:43.320 --> 00:51:52.119 Eternal Polygamy. And see, I have had, in so many 704 00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:56.039 ways a really strong and good experience with the LDS Church. 705 00:51:57.000 --> 00:51:59.679 I have contributed a lot. I have been blessed by 706 00:51:59.719 --> 00:52:02.880 so many of the people in my ward and my 707 00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:07.400 stake that I think it's worth saving. Yes, I do, 708 00:52:07.079 --> 00:52:09.360 I really do it. 709 00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:11.960 It serves a lot of good purposes. 710 00:52:12.119 --> 00:52:12.679 It does. 711 00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:15.079 But one thing I was going to say earlier that 712 00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:17.280 I do want to mention is that it's hard for 713 00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:20.719 me to believe. I read this in a book here recently, 714 00:52:20.760 --> 00:52:24.440 that that God only favors zero point two percent of 715 00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:26.000 the population of people that live. 716 00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:31.559 Of course, you know, of course absurdity, that there are 717 00:52:31.639 --> 00:52:36.800 absurdities galore, But nevertheless, this does happen to be an 718 00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:41.559 institution that exists, and and there are good things that 719 00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:45.119 are being done in this And you know, last night 720 00:52:45.159 --> 00:52:48.159 I watched this tabernacle choir Christmas thing. I was just 721 00:52:48.440 --> 00:52:55.519 overwhelmed with this strong, talented beauty of the whole thing. 722 00:52:56.559 --> 00:52:58.239 Yeah, that is true, It's beautiful. 723 00:52:58.960 --> 00:53:05.159 Yeah. So I'm I'm reading here at the end of 724 00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:11.239 the book the brother Joseph, who I came to love 725 00:53:11.360 --> 00:53:15.320 and whom I love still would weep to see today's tears. 726 00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:20.599 On this subject, he himself said, I have always had 727 00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:25.480 the satisfaction of seeing truth triumph over error, and darkness 728 00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:30.760 give way before light. I believe satisfaction is what the 729 00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:34.480 eternal spirit of Brother Joseph felt as he saw the 730 00:53:34.599 --> 00:53:39.199 ending of the priesthood and temple ban And I believe 731 00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:42.679 that satisfaction is what Brother Joseph will feel as he 732 00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:47.920 sees the departure of

the ghost of eternal polygamy. This 733 00:53:48.039 --> 00:53:52.519 departure is inevitable, I believe, because we will listen to 734 00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:56.599 the better angels of our nature, because we want to 735 00:53:56.639 --> 00:54:00.800 be not only on the right side of history, but 736 00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:05.360 to be on the side of right. Because polygamy bears 737 00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:09.480 bad fruit and has failed the test of Joseph's own 738 00:54:09.559 --> 00:54:14.679 words of being virtuous, lovely, of good report and praiseworthy, 739 00:54:15.480 --> 00:54:23.039 it has proved itself to be a destroyer. We leadership, membership, women, 740 00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:28.159 men all are better than to allow the pain and 741 00:54:28.239 --> 00:54:32.239 the stain of polygamy to remain on a church that 742 00:54:32.440 --> 00:54:37.679 is so vitally good, so profoundly strong in so many ways, 743 00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:42.679 and so demonstrably based on the principle of love taught 744 00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:47.519 by Jesus of Nazareth, by Brother Joseph, and by every 745 00:54:47.559 --> 00:54:51.079 other man and woman across the globe and across the 746 00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:56.159 centuries who grasped a spark of God and shared a 747 00:54:56.199 --> 00:55:03.960 godly message. The the ghost is finally banished. Each young 748 00:55:04.079 --> 00:55:07.719 and tender girl will learn at church and at home 749 00:55:08.639 --> 00:55:12.840 that if she marries, she will become the singular and 750 00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:17.760 full partner of a husband of her choice, and that 751 00:55:17.800 --> 00:55:22.679 her divine nature and individual worth are such that she 752 00:55:22.800 --> 00:55:29.920 will never be one of here or in heaven. The 753 00:55:29.960 --> 00:55:35.119 writings and the folklore around polygamy, the old stories and 754 00:55:35.159 --> 00:55:39.440 the statements even of prophets, will have been put away 755 00:55:39.559 --> 00:55:44.760 in the drawer marked expired, and will generate no more 756 00:55:44.840 --> 00:55:53.239 fear than ghost stories told around the campfire. Every individual 757 00:55:53.320 --> 00:55:58.280 member of the church and every congregation will feel more 758 00:55:58.360 --> 00:56:02.480 open to the present of our long lost heavenly mother, 759 00:56:04.199 --> 00:56:09.000 for the disturbing ghost has been evicted from both earth 760 00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:15.880 and heaven, and the glorious Goddess, full and sole partner 761 00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:20.280 that she is in the creation and sustaining of life, 762 00:56:20.320 --> 00:56:26.719 is welcomed back into the family. Marriages will be sweeter, 763 00:56:28.159 --> 00:56:32.480 with no holding back a piece of heart just in case. 764 00:56:34.679 --> 00:56:38.880 A wife will sleep better, never startled in the night 765 00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:42.880 by the terrible thought if I die before he does. 766 00:56:45.239

--> 00:56:48.320 An elderly widow will spend her last days with peace 767 00:56:48.360 --> 00:56:53.400 of mind and no disquieting thought of I wonder if 768 00:56:53.400 --> 00:56:58.719 he has taken another wife already. A husband will invest 769 00:56:58.840 --> 00:57:03.119 fully in his one and precious partner, with never a 770 00:57:03.239 --> 00:57:06.719 thought that she is not enough here or will be 771 00:57:06.760 --> 00:57:11.880 added to in heaven. A widow will be able to 772 00:57:11.960 --> 00:57:17.159 mourn her loss, and then, if she wishes, look forward 773 00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:20.920 to a new relationship in which she can be seen 774 00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:26.480 as the desirable woman that she is unobstructed by prior attachment. 775 00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:31.519 Her love for a past husband and a present husband 776 00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:35.440 do not conflict, for she knows that God is not 777 00:57:35.880 --> 00:57:40.480 asking her to make impossible choices, and that in heaven 778 00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:46.239 there will be many happy surprises. A man who chooses 779 00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:49.599 to marry a widow will do so with full confidence 780 00:57:49.960 --> 00:57:53.239 that this is the blessed union and can only lead 781 00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:55.880 to good in this world and the next, for him, 782 00:57:56.239 --> 00:58:00.159 for her, for her children, his children, their children, and 783 00:58:00.199 --> 00:58:04.920 for her deceased husband. The entire family invests only in 784 00:58:05.079 --> 00:58:10.800 love and not in anxiety, confident that each relationship wife 785 00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:14.599 to husband, sister to brother, mother, and father to children 786 00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:20.960 is secure. The claim of our church that we create 787 00:58:21.039 --> 00:58:27.159 and support strong families will be even more true as 788 00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:33.039 the ruptures and the tensions produced by the ghost will 789 00:58:33.039 --> 00:58:40.960 have ceased. No one will experience apprehension over paperwork that 790 00:58:41.079 --> 00:58:46.880 plots out who will be with whom in heaven. All 791 00:58:46.920 --> 00:58:52.519 will breathe easily, confident that in this spectacular organization of 792 00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:56.000 the family of God, our father and mother in heaven 793 00:58:57.440 --> 00:59:00.440 all of us will receive with each person we have 794 00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:05.519 loved and been loved by, a perfectly designed relationship, with 795 00:59:05.679 --> 00:59:09.719 eternal joy and good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and 796 00:59:09.800 --> 00:59:14.880 running over, a connection that our earthly minds cannot now 797 00:59:15.039 --> 00:59:22.719 begin to grasp, and intertwined with every benefit will be 798 00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:28.039 the supreme one. The shedding of an old and debilitating 799 00:59:28.199 --> 00:59:34.039 distrust in a God that, for many faithful Lds, women 800 00:59:34.199 --> 00:59:43.960 and men, has brought untenable spiritual and theological dissonance. A 801 00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:47.880 God who has prepared an eternity that will break the 802 00:59:47.880 --> 00:59:53.599 hearts of women and render them forever subordinate, will be 803 00:59:53.719 --> 01:00:01.559 dismissed as preposterous. We will see with more clarity and 804 01:00:01.599 --> 01:00:07.280 with deeper appreciation the one in the mirror, the one 805 01:00:07.320 --> 01:00:13.079 on the other side of the bed, and the one 806 01:00:13.119 --> 01:00:18.760 who thought this all up in the first place. A 807 01:00:18.840 --> 01:00:23.679 new buoyancy will render us a stronger people, a people 808 01:00:23.800 --> 01:00:30.519 more prepared to gift the Lord with our portion of Zion. 809 01:00:33.000 --> 01:00:39.840 Witness the mystery of transformation. Patriarchy has been spinning silk 810 01:00:40.639 --> 01:00:46.599 for its chrysalis. The process of deconstruction is underway. A 811 01:00:46.719 --> 01:00:51.519 shell breaks and a bright thing shivers when the little 812 01:00:51.599 --> 01:00:59.440 butterfly of equality of real partnership begins to move her 813 01:00:59.559 --> 01:01:06.480 wings things in Mormondom, a shift will be felt in 814 01:01:06.760 --> 01:01:14.039 far places. We are one, and when one is blessed, 815 01:01:15.079 --> 01:01:22.280 the blessing is for all. A woman in Ethiopia will 816 01:01:22.360 --> 01:01:27.960 refuse genital mutilation for her daughter. A girl in the 817 01:01:28.039 --> 01:01:31.760 desert of Afghanistan will bravely walk into a school for 818 01:01:31.800 --> 01:01:36.320 the first time. And in Osaka, a man for no 819 01:01:36.480 --> 01:01:40.920 apparent reason who will decide against purchasing another girl for 820 01:01:41.039 --> 01:01:46.280 his brothel and instead might find will find himself drawn 821 01:01:46.760 --> 01:01:59.559 to the fishing industry. I have this fantasy. I play 822 01:01:59.599 --> 01:02:03.960 it out in my head whenever I get discouraged about religion, 823 01:02:04.119 --> 01:02:09.119 mine or anybody else's, or sometimes just for fun, that 824 01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:13.000 fabulous moment at the opening ceremony of the Olympics, the 825 01:02:13.039 --> 01:02:17.079 Parade of Nations, when the athletes start pouring into the arena, 826 01:02:17.719 --> 01:02:22.360 those beautiful young people in costumes that celebrate their own country, 827 01:02:22.599 --> 01:02:26.880 waving their own flag, smiling from their heart, so thrilled 828 01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:30.639 to be there, representing the people they love, giving their 829 01:02:30.760 --> 01:02:35.320 very best, watching each other give their best, everyone a 830 01:02:35.360 --> 01:02:41.280 good sport. In my fantasy, it's a parade of religions 831 01:02:41.320 --> 01:02:45.639 all come together to celebrate, to show their very best stuff, 832 01:02:46.119 -->

01:02:50.760 and to admire each other's best stuff. We enter the 833 01:02:50.840 --> 01:02:53.679 arena with banners showing the name by which we have 834 01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:59.480 been called, decorated with our special symbols. We're smiling and waving. 835 01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:04.760 We dress for tradition, for history, and local color. As 836 01:03:04.800 --> 01:03:07.639 we come in alphabetically, we are led by the Amish, 837 01:03:07.880 --> 01:03:12.039 and the rear is brought up by the Zoroastrians. We 838 01:03:12.199 --> 01:03:15.960 Latter day Saints are right between the Jews and the Mennonites. 839 01:03:17.480 --> 01:03:21.320 This is a futurist fantasy. There are no metals. The 840 01:03:21.360 --> 01:03:24.119 only gold in evidence is the gold of the rule 841 01:03:25.159 --> 01:03:29.639 that every religion community rediscovered as it dug deep into 842 01:03:29.719 --> 01:03:34.599 its soul. That startlingly leaves simple and indispensable law of 843 01:03:34.679 --> 01:03:39.840 compassion that is now treasured above all else. What was 844 01:03:39.880 --> 01:03:44.320 so often a platitude has become a platform for habitual action. 845 01:03:46.199 --> 01:03:50.760 I know I am shamelessly optimistic, and because religion does 846 01:03:50.840 --> 01:03:55.199 not own the golden Rule. In the larger narrative, the 847 01:03:55.280 --> 01:03:58.840 unchurched and the atheists have also brought their own hearts 848 01:03:58.880 --> 01:04:02.960 and hands to create a new Earth. But this particular 849 01:04:03.039 --> 01:04:08.079 story is of the religions. We've come together not to compete, 850 01:04:08.800 --> 01:04:13.239 but to share joy and to learn. Here's what we 851 01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:16.199 have found that has proven to be godly? What have 852 01:04:16.320 --> 01:04:20.280 you found? I love it when the Latter day Saints 853 01:04:20.280 --> 01:04:23.280 go marching in. I get to be in that number, 854 01:04:23.519 --> 01:04:27.639 and I couldn't be more pleased, smiling and waving. We've 855 01:04:27.719 --> 01:04:30.920 kept enough of our weirdness to make us interesting, but 856 01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:34.480 we've given up the things that were hurtful and did 857 01:04:34.519 --> 01:04:38.559 not measure up to the rule that we take very seriously. 858 01:04:38.679 --> 01:04:45.360 Now nobody preaches, We just share. I spend hours visiting 859 01:04:45.440 --> 01:04:50.039 this storytelling booths, those sacred little spaces, unveiling the different 860 01:04:50.079 --> 01:04:54.800 faces of God. I sit quietly with the Buddhists practice 861 01:04:54.800 --> 01:05:03.960 emptying my cluttered mind and courting enlightenment. Oh m oh, 862 01:05:04.039 --> 01:05:07.960 I watch in wonderment the drama, the spectacle of the Catholics, 863 01:05:08.000 --> 01:05:11.800 from early course mortality placed to the splendor of the 864 01:05:11.880 --> 01:05:15.719 High Mass. I come back again and again to the Quakers, 865

01:05:16.039 --> 01:05:20.320 resting in silence purity, so grateful for their centuries of 866 01:05:20.440 --> 01:05:26.000 working for social justice. At my own booth, the Mormon Booth, 867 01:05:26.679 --> 01:05:30.960 I get to tell some really great stories. After all, 868 01:05:31.000 --> 01:05:34.639 it is my business to tell the stories, and after all, 869 01:05:34.719 --> 01:05:40.199 this is my fantasy. Few people even ask about polygamy now, 870 01:05:40.840 --> 01:05:43.239 because it is well known that truly we gave it 871 01:05:43.320 --> 01:05:48.679 up long ago, completely and for real. We discovered, in 872 01:05:48.760 --> 01:05:52.199 that great searching of the soul, as we burnished the 873 01:05:52.239 --> 01:05:57.440 gold of our rule into full brightness, that polygamy did 874 01:05:57.480 --> 01:06:02.440 not pass the test of compassion, of kindness, of seeing 875 01:06:02.559 --> 01:06:09.639 everyone as our own kind. Once we embraced compassion with 876 01:06:09.760 --> 01:06:14.079 full clarity, giving up polygamy root and branch was not 877 01:06:14.199 --> 01:06:19.800 that hard. We tell Brother Joseph's stories in heaven, but 878 01:06:19.880 --> 01:06:22.480 I like best our stories of the hear and now, 879 01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:28.400 and I tell them, hoping Joseph might be listening. With 880 01:06:28.480 --> 01:06:32.239 that thought, that powerful wish to tell Joseph, this fantasy 881 01:06:32.320 --> 01:06:35.039 morphs into a new one. I move out of the 882 01:06:35.079 --> 01:06:44.679 future into the past. I will continue to walk with 883 01:06:44.800 --> 01:06:48.159 the saints and play my little part in the story. 884 01:06:49.119 --> 01:06:51.920 And when my part is finished and I'm in that higher, 885 01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:56.679 brighter place, I will still watch with interest. I will 886 01:06:56.760 --> 01:06:59.800 visit that peering window I made up, that hole in 887 01:07:00.079 --> 01:07:06.159 heaven that lets us see the whole of Earth. Maybe 888 01:07:06.199 --> 01:07:09.639 Gerald and I will take an excursion thereafter our promised picnic. 889 01:07:10.679 --> 01:07:12.920 He and I are still sealed, you know, But Mormon 890 01:07:13.000 --> 01:07:16.360 authority is the least of it. We are sealed as 891 01:07:16.400 --> 01:07:19.599 friends forever by the matter of love and grief and 892 01:07:19.719 --> 01:07:23.480 loss and learning, that eternal learning that moves us ever 893 01:07:23.599 --> 01:07:28.199 toward God. Sister Emma will join us on occasion, I'm sure, 894 01:07:29.360 --> 01:07:31.719 and perhaps we may even have the honor of Brother 895 01:07:31.800 --> 01:07:35.880 Joseph's company as well. He liked nothing better than to 896 01:07:35.960 --> 01:07:39.719 be with his friends. I will watch to see what 897 01:07:39.840 --> 01:07:43.000 may come of my own work. When the pioneers crossed 898 01:07:43.039 --> 01:07:46.119 the plains, often they planted siegs that would bring a 899 01:07:46.159 --> 01:07:50.840 harvest to those who would come after divine economy that 900 01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:54.960 brings peace to one who plants words. I have told, 901 01:07:55.000 --> 01:07:57.960 the stories, I have shared my vision. 902 01:07:59.440 --> 01:08:09.199 I am well, Carolyn. That was beautiful. I really felt that. 903 01:08:09.679 --> 01:08:12.480 And I just feel when you were talking about that 904 01:08:12.519 --> 01:08:15.119 we'll be asked to give our best. I just feel 905 01:08:15.159 --> 01:08:19.479 so honored to be here and to be receiving your best. 906 01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:23.119 The words that you've shared, the stories, the stories of 907 01:08:23.199 --> 01:08:28.880 others that you've You've been the one to champion their voices. 908 01:08:29.479 --> 01:08:31.960 So just trank you. That is that was just rue, 909 01:08:31.960 --> 01:08:34.359 you know, And I'm the one that had the opportunity 910 01:08:34.439 --> 01:08:39.079 to do it. Yeah, this was my calling and I 911 01:08:39.159 --> 01:08:43.239 knew it was my calling, and I'm thrilled to be 912 01:08:43.319 --> 01:08:47.079 able to you know this is this is healing work 913 01:08:47.199 --> 01:08:50.039 that we're all of us doing here. Yes, we three 914 01:08:50.159 --> 01:08:54.760 talking in this room. We're all doing committed to doing 915 01:08:54.840 --> 01:08:57.560 healing work, and we are healers in one way or another. 916 01:08:58.520 --> 01:09:03.720 And when we spot something that is pain that people 917 01:09:03.720 --> 01:09:08.039 who are in pain, things that bring that pain, we 918 01:09:08.159 --> 01:09:12.560 automatically feel called to say, is there something we can 919 01:09:12.640 --> 01:09:16.840 do about that? Right, And in this particular case, I 920 01:09:16.920 --> 01:09:21.359 knew there was something I could do about this, and 921 01:09:21.439 --> 01:09:25.760 so I did. And so it's here forever for whoever 922 01:09:25.840 --> 01:09:29.920 wants to learn from this path of mine and this 923 01:09:30.039 --> 01:09:35.720 path of hundreds of people who contributed. I know, I 924 01:09:35.760 --> 01:09:38.800 know this has brought tremendous peace to a lot of couples. 925 01:09:39.079 --> 01:09:43.680 I know that, And I have people email me saying, 926 01:09:44.119 --> 01:09:47.159 you showed me away. I could give up polygamy without 927 01:09:47.199 --> 01:09:49.000 having to give up the church that I love. 928 01:09:50.119 --> 01:09:52.920 Yeah, and for that, I love that you have shined 929 01:09:52.960 --> 01:09:55.960 that light for others. Then to pick it up and 930 01:09:56.000 --> 01:09:58.520 have the courage to listen, like we said to the 931 01:09:58.600 --> 01:10:03.000 voice inside yeah, and to still belong to a community 932 01:10:03.199 --> 01:10:06.119 and a faith that is so integral to who they are. 933 01:10:06.239 --> 01:10:11.039 Right, Mormonism is better than this. It just is better 934 01:10:11.079 -->

01:10:14.279 than this. If you pull out all the weeds, and 935 01:10:14.319 --> 01:10:17.199 you know, this is I think the biggest one. I 936 01:10:17.199 --> 01:10:20.920 think this is the biggest weed that needs to be 937 01:10:21.039 --> 01:10:23.399 pulled out of the whole Mormon fabric. 938 01:10:23.720 --> 01:10:27.680 Wroten All, I agree with you. And one of the 939 01:10:27.680 --> 01:10:29.880 things that I liked when we were reading the book is, 940 01:10:30.840 --> 01:10:35.399 you know, it's easy for people to to complain about 941 01:10:35.439 --> 01:10:38.039 things that they're not going going well, and there are 942 01:10:38.079 --> 01:10:42.720 things you don't agree with, et cetera. But you offer solutions. 943 01:10:42.800 --> 01:10:46.840 And the one example that you gave that was for 944 01:10:46.960 --> 01:10:50.000 me powerful in the book was you said, we've done 945 01:10:50.000 --> 01:10:55.319 this before in nineteen seventy eight when we changed when 946 01:10:55.439 --> 01:11:00.239 the church changed its doctrine about giving the priests stood 947 01:11:00.239 --> 01:11:06.359 blessings to all men. That that was a shift that 948 01:11:06.560 --> 01:11:12.239 we weren't really necessarily anticipating, but it was done. It 949 01:11:12.279 --> 01:11:14.760 continues to be done, and we don't go back and say, oh, well, 950 01:11:14.760 --> 01:11:17.960 you know the reality is as they all men aren't 951 01:11:18.000 --> 01:11:21.319 really worthy to have the priesthood. No, that's been let 952 01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:24.800 go of now it moves forward with all men being 953 01:11:24.840 --> 01:11:29.119 able to have the priesthood. It's the same thing. Maybe 954 01:11:29.119 --> 01:11:32.520 you can kind of put that puzzle piece together for 955 01:11:32.640 --> 01:11:34.000 us again here as we end. 956 01:11:34.119 --> 01:11:40.119 Well, sure, and the particular thing you mentioned of changing 957 01:11:40.159 --> 01:11:45.359 a lot of our ideas and policies regarding our black 958 01:11:45.479 --> 01:11:52.279 brothers and sisters a highly welcome, of course, I guess, 959 01:11:52.359 --> 01:11:58.760 and a godly thing to have done. Women are still 960 01:11:59.439 --> 01:12:03.880 of the last wagon in terms of things that it 961 01:12:03.960 --> 01:12:07.279 appears to me that the authorities of the Church are 962 01:12:07.359 --> 01:12:12.520 concerned about. And I have said, and I believe with 963 01:12:12.560 --> 01:12:19.960 all my heart, that society in general, religious society, all society, 964 01:12:20.199 --> 01:12:26.680 and certainly our own Mormon Latter day Saints society must 965 01:12:27.359 --> 01:12:33.159 move historically into more and more of a place of light, 966 01:12:33.840 --> 01:12:38.880 a more of a positive place. You know, we if 967 01:12:38.920 --> 01:12:41.159 we get up here and look down, we see history. 968 01:12:41.199 --> 01:12:45.319 You know, way back there, the women were burned, the

969 01:12:45.359 --> 01:12:50.039 women couldn't vote, all of these. We have sustained a 970 01:12:50.079 --> 01:12:54.880 patriarchy for centuries and centuries and centuries, and prior to that, 971 01:12:54.960 --> 01:12:58.319 you know, there was some something a little a little different. 972 01:12:59.039 --> 01:13:03.560 But when patriarch parchy really really got hold, and it 973 01:13:03.680 --> 01:13:14.039 still has hold, tremendous pain exists because of that. But 974 01:13:14.840 --> 01:13:22.279 just like history insisted that the Middle Ages give way 975 01:13:23.039 --> 01:13:27.319 to the Enlightenment, because it was the progress of human 976 01:13:27.439 --> 01:13:33.039 consciousness that demanded that, I am submitting that the ongoing 977 01:13:34.000 --> 01:13:39.279 progress of human consciousness is in the process of requiring 978 01:13:40.520 --> 01:13:46.000 that we cross the rocky plains of patriarchy into the 979 01:13:46.039 --> 01:13:47.760 promised land of partnership. 980 01:13:48.239 --> 01:13:48.439 Yeah. 981 01:13:48.800 --> 01:13:50.119 I love that. 982 01:13:50.119 --> 01:13:54.920 That is an essential thing. It's not optional, and there's 983 01:13:54.920 --> 01:13:58.199 a lot of pain going on right now around you know, 984 01:13:58.239 --> 01:13:59.840 how do we do that or do we even want 985 01:13:59.880 --> 01:14:04.119 to it at all? But it is essential. I know 986 01:14:04.239 --> 01:14:07.199 that to be true. May it be so? And so 987 01:14:07.239 --> 01:14:07.600 it is? 988 01:14:08.319 --> 01:14:11.680 Amen? Amen, I love that. I disagree. Thank you so much. 989 01:14:13.359 --> 01:14:15.960 As we close, I wanted to just say, you're in 990 01:14:16.000 --> 01:14:20.800 the process of writing your memoirs. Basically you're going through 991 01:14:20.840 --> 01:14:23.079 diaries and journals. 992 01:14:23.199 --> 01:14:25.279 Who told you you did? 993 01:14:27.960 --> 01:14:32.039 And I know that that's that's something near and der 994 01:14:32.079 --> 01:14:35.000 to your heart and we look forward to whatever that 995 01:14:35.359 --> 01:14:36.079 comes out to be. 996 01:14:36.520 --> 01:14:40.600 Well, now that you brought that up, which I was 997 01:14:40.680 --> 01:14:44.239 never going to do, I yes, I have kept a 998 01:14:44.279 --> 01:14:47.199 diary since say I mentioned I was a senior in 999 01:14:47.319 --> 01:14:52.039 high school in nineteen seventy six, fall up, and I 1000 01:14:52.079 --> 01:14:55.159 started keeping a diary. And I kept a diary ever since, 1001 01:14:55.479 --> 01:15:01.119 ever since. I gift thousands and thousands of pages. Yeah, 1002 01:15:01.159 --> 01:15:04.640 and so I am working on a project. It's a 1003 01:15:04.680 --> 01:15:08.479 long term project. I don't know what it'll look like. 1004 01:15:08.600 --> 01:15:13.039 It's already bigger than one book. But the title that 1005 01:15:13.119 --> 01:15:20.319 I have is the Diary of a Mormon feminist Subtitley 1006 01:15:20.800 --> 01:15:29.760 my sixty five years, my sixty five year frontline mission 1007 01:15:31.359 --> 01:15:33.680 to convert patriarchy to partnership. 1008 01:15:34.199 --> 01:15:36.359 Oh man, wow, I love that, Carolyn. 1009 01:15:36.600 --> 01:15:40.680 Yeah, well I want to end on that. That's the 1010 01:15:40.760 --> 01:15:43.840 teaser for when the first book comes out. We got 1011 01:15:43.840 --> 01:15:44.520 to come back now. 1012 01:15:45.159 --> 01:15:47.800 Yes, well, thank you, thank you very much. Yes, I 1013 01:15:48.399 --> 01:15:51.079 love visiting with you, and perhaps we can do this 1014 01:15:51.119 --> 01:15:54.000 again sometimes I would. May you be blessed, May I 1015 01:15:54.119 --> 01:15:59.359 be blessed. May every listener be blessed to find the 1016 01:15:59.520 --> 01:16:06.760 highest intention. Do they feel they have come here to 1017 01:16:06.800 --> 01:16:11.920 contribute and fearlessly and joyfully do it? Yeah? 1018 01:16:12.720 --> 01:16:16.079 Perfect, we're all in this together. Yeah, let's do it together. 1019 01:16:16.920 --> 01:16:20.479 Thank you so much for being here, Thanks for allowing 1020 01:16:20.600 --> 01:16:22.960 us come into your home. I guess I should say 1021 01:16:23.159 --> 01:16:24.239 we're the ones that are here. 1022 01:16:25.399 --> 01:16:29.039 Thank you for coming, so until later, we'll see you 1023 01:16:29.079 --> 01:16:29.520 next time. 1024 01:16:29.640 --> 01:16:35.199 Bye bye bye. If you're enjoying the Observatory Podcast, please 1025 01:16:35.239 --> 01:16:39.800 consider subscribing, sharing us, and if you have time to 1026 01:16:39.840 --> 01:16:42.199 write a review about something that may have affected your 1027 01:16:42.199 --> 01:16:44.960 life or helped you in some way, please do so. 1028 01:16:45.479 --> 01:16:47.479 That helps us to get the word out and get 1029 01:16:47.479 --> 01:16:50.279 this information out to more and more people so that 1030 01:16:50.359 --> 01:16:53.520 it can be shared and we can help ripple out 1031 01:16:53.560 --> 01:16:57.159 this energy that's emanating in the world today. There's been 1032 01:16:57.199 --> 01:16:59.359 so much separation and we want to find a way 1033 01:16:59.520 --> 01:17:04.199 to create conversations where we can come together, not divide 1034 01:17:04.279 --> 01:17:07.159 so much as we have been to learn to come 1035 01:17:07.199 --> 01:17:08.199 together in unity. 1036 01:17:08.840 --> 01:17:15.680 Thank you you've been listening to the Observatory Podcast 1037 01:17:16.079 --> 01:17:19.319 Please be sure to subscribe so you don't miss any 1038 01:17:19.479 --> 01:17:21.079 of our future episodes.