Bản chép lời đầy đủ của Nick Roberts on Addiction, Demons & Why Fans Ask "Is He Okay?"

Roberts: that's my earliest recollection of being like, okay, I need more of whatever that is. So I always started Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: reading goosebumps. I try to sneak movies from this will age me, but I would try to sneak movies from Blockbuster, like every horror Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: aisle or area that I could go to. And ultimately, I was born in October. I'm an October baby. So I naturally Rachel Redd: Ha ha. Nick Roberts: look forward to that month. So I Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: was born to love horror, I think, because you get to October and the TVs. Well, now that starts in September or August, but it starts to talk about Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: horror and yeah, it just gives me that feeling of being a kid again. Rachel Redd: Yeah. Did you f and did like did you give yourself nightmares? Like did you have to adjust? I still sometimes watch scary movies and I'm like, this is too much for me. Or were you always kind of desensitized? Did you always have a sense of like separation from it? Like this isn't real, this can't hurt me, and so it never really like scared you, scared you, or did you like just being scared and so you just continued to go down the rabbit hole? Nick Roberts: I would say it's a combination of both. At first, I liked being scared and I wanted to explore more of that. But what happened one day was I skipped school. I was not the greatest student and I rode my bike to a convenience store that rented out VHSs and I rented Pulp Fiction and I took Pulp Fiction Rachel Redd: Okay. Nick Roberts: Home, this would have been 1995 and I watched it and that's when I saw the craft behind the Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: art. I saw there was this auteur behind the scenes and that's what really drew me into, okay, I can manipulate art to evoke these feelings that I like out of readers or consumers or whatever. So then I started writing my own scary stories or drawing my own monsters and comics. my family just always knew that I had that fascination with everything scary. And in a book that I'm working on, what's in edits right now, the dedication is to my cousin Mike. because he bought me a severed head from Spencer's Halloween, or Spencer's at the mall. And it was like this Halloween prop. Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: And he bought that for me when I was like 10, 12, 13, something in that area. And it made its way into every movie, every home movie that my friends and I shot. Rachel Redd: Nice. Nick Roberts: Yeah, my mom would always get calls from teachers telling about the creepy things I was reading or the things I was writing or drawing. Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: But once they got to know me, they kind of were like, that's just Nick. There's nothing to worry about. That's just what he likes. Rachel Redd: Yeah. So you were then creating story in some capacity, whether it was like like you said, comics, shooting home movies. I know you're a huge movie fan. so you were a storyteller like quite young. You had you had the the itch for that. Did you know you wanted to be a writer then, or were you just hoping to or did you want to work in movies? Like what was the dream? Nick Roberts: The dream was to be a writer-director. So Rachel Redd: Okay. Nick Roberts: I studied movies and it wasn't just horror movies. I mean, it was everything. I became a cinephile and I would listen to director commentaries and then they would mention their influences. So I would go down this rabbit hole and I kind of gave myself this film school education and just by putting in my 10,000 hours of watching film. And when I applied to different film schools by the time it came for college, but by then, like my personal life had taken a complete detour. I made all the wrong choices you can as a teenager and my grades reflected that. So I didn't have a backup plan. My goal is to, hey, I'm going to get into all these film schools and do all these amazing things because I'm talented, but I have nothing to show for it except bad grades and a dream. So yeah, I kind of just fell into prose when I was about 25 and I got my act together and I went back to school and fell in love with reading again. Rachel Redd: And you were a teacher, correct? Before you were published, before you were a full time writer, you taught did you teach English? Nick Roberts: Yes, primarily I was, I taught English, but I always managed to sneak electives in there like creative writing or filmmaking or Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: film appreciation, just so I could nerd out in that way and show people that even the, the, the movies that are looked down upon, which is our traditionally horror films, can be the most socially conscious and embed the most profound metaphors. So that's Rachel Redd: Yeah. Yeah. Nick Roberts: always a treat to me to enlighten minds about particularly students about movies or books that they thought were one thing, but actually could mean something else. Rachel Redd: Yeah. No, I think that, I've said this several times online on the show. People who listen to every episode are like, We get it, Rachel. But I fell into horror late in life. I I think. I I mean I definitely dabbled with Stephen King and horror movies, far too young with the blockbusters, with the library, very similar. but I I was always scared of it. Like, you know, it was like t very taboo. I grew up in a really religious home and it was very like my gosh, like demons are real. Like I believed in a lot of the stuff, and so it was quite terrifying until I reconstructed much later in life and left that cult. And I so I stumbled back into horror or into horror for the first time really genuinely as a reader, probably two years ago. And my favorite thing about it, I th coming right into the genre, I read My Best Friend's Exorcism by Grady Hendricks. Nick Roberts: Yeah. Rachel Redd: Which had been someone was like, If you like stranger three stranger things, you should read my best

friend's exorcism because it's got that same 80s nostalgic vibe. And I was like, I don't know, I guess I'll try it. And I devoured it and I was like, Really, this is not a s story about demon possession. I mean, it is, but that's just the cover for a story about friendship and about the things you would do Nick Roberts: Yes. Rachel Redd: to like stick stick with your friends regardless of what they're going through and how you help somebody you know, in a place where they can't r really be fixed, but you can still support. And I was like, there's so much happening in this book that isn't just like, her friend is possessed by a demon, obviously. And that unlocked this whole world for me where I found deep thematic empathy in horror, horror book after horror book after horror book. And like the different shades of it. And you know, we have BIPOC horror and indigenous horror and queer horror. And I was like, I could just not I now I can't be satiated, right? Like now I just can't stop reading it. Nick Roberts: Yeah. Rachel Redd: and the messages that are deep in it that that people say, like the thing I come across almost most often is, well, I could never read horror. Horror's not for me, because like I I don't want to read about, you know, a scary clown coming out of the gutter. And I was like, okay, but like if you actually read it, you would know that that's not what it's about. And I Nick Roberts: Yeah. Rachel Redd: do think that it's a bit misunderstood. And so I love that you like took joy and the opportunity to to show a different generation and kids. Like actually there's something really to these movies that's quite like good for the human psyche and for the and for humanity in general. Nick Roberts: Yeah, it's, I think it's personally, I think it's great to be scared for kids to go through and experience being scared. And then once you Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: can, that feeling and that like roller coaster element of horror aside, then you can analyze and deconstruct and find all these other important things that are embedded in movies and in TV shows and, and books. But Yeah, my best friend's exorcism, when you brought that up, I immediately thought of the cover. And that Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: is one of those books that expanded my view of more than just Stephen King, because like you were saying, you were relatively late to the horror game. I'm relatively late to reading outside of like five horror authors. So I am surprised, Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: like I am embarrassingly under read when it comes to the horror genre. And it's because I'm playing catch up from years of not reading. What Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: most horror authors have, I imagine in their wheelhouse are, you know, experienced with reading tons of horror authors, whereas I draw from more cinematic influences. And Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: once I started writing and people started giving me literary criticism, then I was like, okay, I really need to step my game up. And if I'm going to play in this sandbox, Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: I need to show the craft, the respect it deserves. And that's when I really buckled down Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: on studying literature. Excuse me. Rachel Redd: Yeah. But I would say I would say it makes sense that you are influenced by movies and film because I think your books feel very cinematic. and that is a there's a really good place in the horror genre, you know, in horror literature that needs these like propulsive, electric, like it feels very tangible, the descriptions, the pacing where it's like it does feel kind of like it's playing out. Like a movie in my head, especially I'm very visual when I read. And so for someone like me as a reader who like really tries to imagine everything that's being described, I love that. I love that your work brings that. 'Cause not everybody does, and that's okay, 'cause you know, we have lots of we have lots of space, lots of room at the table. but so it Nick Roberts: Absolutely. Rachel Redd: makes sense that you're influenced by movies. Nick Roberts: I was just going to echo whenever I'm writing, it's never thinking of the sentence that's going to come next. It's always this movie Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: is this movie is happening in my head and I just need to write down what's happening. like thinking visually is is sort of, you know, what I consider one of my greatest assets. as a writer is, is I can just kind of go on autopilot. And when I get in that zone and I can experience my reading or my writing as readers would experience it. That's when I know that I'm, Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: I'm onto something. There are times when I've made myself cry. Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: There are times when I've scared myself and that's when I Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: know that, yeah, I'm onto something. So. Yeah. Rachel Redd: Yeah. AI could never, you know? That's what I like to say. AI could never. Yeah. Nick Roberts: yeah. Yes. Rachel Redd: I just like to slip that in as often as possible. Nick Roberts: Thank you. Thank you. Rachel Redd: yeah, of course. So you are a hybrid author, which is really interesting. So you've done you work with traditional houses like Crystal Lake, but then you also publish in your own company. is it spooky W V, I believe. Nick Roberts: Yes. Rachel Redd: what made you decide to kind of straddle this line and like keep a foot in each arena, so to speak? Nick Roberts: So just to clarify a bit there with Crystal Lake, they are an indie publishing house. with Wicked House Publishing. Rachel Redd: Yes. Nick Roberts: Same with, even technically, even as well known as Cemetery Dance is, they are an independent Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: publishing house. When you step outside of the Big Four or... you know, the big five, however you want to differentiate those. that, that leaves room for a lot of independent publishers,

some much, much more successful than others. But my literary dream is to, you know, it was at one point was to get an agent to sell my work to these big publishing houses. to where I could walk into these Barnes and Nobles or Books-A-Million or whatever and see my work up there with all the other mainstream horror authors. And that's one route to publication. That's one view of success in this game. But then you will see authors who will turn down major... major deals and major offers because they have figured out how to write in the independent market and be an indie author Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: because they have that skill set of not only writing, not only being able to collaborate with editors and cover artists, but to market and to build Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: their own readership. So by the time Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: they start getting books up there on the best seller charts and traditional publishing houses approach them. It's almost like, well, what are you bringing to the table other than what I've already done for myself? Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: Why should I split my royalties with you just because you say Simon and Schuster? So that's an interesting Rachel Redd: Right. Nick Roberts: conversation to have with those people at those houses because they do bring a lot to the table. It's just Rachel Redd: Ray. Nick Roberts: that I have a couple of different authors who I look at as models and I watch what Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: they do. And what appeals to me so much about being a hybrid author, working with the big five working with a medium sized house like a thon books wicked house crystal lake and then self publishing is mainly content and what I can control. So if I Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: if I have if I write a story that I think more people will enjoy than just the average you know, however many people will read or buy anything I put out, then I'm Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: like, okay, I want to give this one to my agent. I want to let my agent take this one out to market and I'm going to forget all about it because it could be, you know, months, years before I hear anything else Rachel Redd: Right. Nick Roberts: about it. But if I've written something Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: that I would like to have out there, immediately. Like I want that instant gratification or I feel like this one feels a little more indie. It doesn't need the big budget release. Then I can Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: focus on doing an independent release. So it's a balancing act. It's learning as I go. And I think one of the best authors to do it right now is an author like Jeff Strand, because like Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: He does novelizations for films. Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: He does middle grade horror. You can walk through Target and see Jeff's books everywhere. And he's also Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: working with these indie houses. yeah, Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: that's the middle ground that I like because it kind of, it fills every void that I need as an author. Rachel Redd: Yeah. I love the n I I don't know if it's necessarily new wave of you know, publishing routes, but I think that probably twenty years ago, in my very limit limited understanding, publishing looked very like was there was like one track, right? There was like one track to getting published really successfully, and it was with a traditional publishing house. And then I love that now with self publishing and indie publishing, you just have more opportunities for really talented writers to get their work into the hands of readers because, you know, w that was very difficult to do. That's all it's still very difficult to do. Even with all Nick Roberts: Yeah. Rachel Redd: of the ways that you can do it now, of course, it's still a ton of work. It still has to be, you know, the right book at the right time with the right audience. I mean, there's still I'm I'm A lot that goes into that to make it successful. But I do love hearing these stories of, you know, different authors approaching writing differently than just the traditional this is the way you get published. You get an agent, you sign a three book deal, you put out books, you hope to make enough money to quit your job and do it again. Like there are lots of avenues now because you were writing and teaching at the same time. We're did you release how or like how How long were you doing that before you got to say, Okay, I'm gonna be a full time author now? Like I'm making enough income that I can s quit teaching? you don't teach anymore, correct? Nick Roberts: Right. Yeah. So that was Rachel Redd: Right. Nick Roberts: that was always the goal. So I, my first year of teaching, was actually, I went through it and I had this creative itch come back. And I also had a buddy from school reach out to me and he said, Hey, I'm running this literary magazine right now. And I remember in college, you used to do creative writing. Would you consider writing a short story? So I submitted that short Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: story. He read it, he liked it, and he told me that he would not just automatically take it if he didn't like it. mean, this guy was a Marine. He was like, no BS. And I knew he would not hold back. So when he accepted it and it was published and I saw my name in print for the first time, I was like, okay, that gives me a little bit of motivation to maybe try a novel and to go down that route. Now at the same time, I was doing my first year teaching and like I said, I went back to school late and later in life and I got my bachelor's in English and I got my master's in teaching. Once I had my, once I was in that master's program as a teacher, I was, and I had my certification, I was allowed to step into the classroom. So after that first year of teaching, I sat down and I was like, okay, this is summer break. This is amazing. I have like all this time on

my hands and I have this also, I have this like need to tell stories again. It's like re-emerged in my psyche. Why not take advantage of it? So the first thing I did was read Stephen King's On Writing for like the 10th time. Yeah. Rachel Redd: so good. Nick Roberts: And I Rachel Redd: Yeah, so good. Nick Roberts: had a goal of writing a thousand words a day and over the course of that summer break. And that's what I did. And my first book, Anathema, is the result of that. I had that book. come out and it was picked up by a very small publisher. It had a small release, but we did have plans for signings and things like that. Well, this was the December, January era of right when COVID was rolling across our borders. So we had to Rachel Redd: Mm Yeah. Nick Roberts: We had to cancel all those plans and it also affected my day job as a teacher. But it gave me time where Rachel Redd: Right. Nick Roberts: I could stay home and I was like, okay, I'm not gonna let this get me down. I'm just going to take the momentum that I have from anathema and go ahead and get started on book two. And book two is what became the exorcist house, which is what most people know Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: me for. that book, as soon as Crystal Lake acquired that book and they hired a cover artist and they released the image of that cover with that title on it, people just started gravitating towards it. And even Crystal Lake were like, we're getting more feedback and this thing is getting more traction than anything we've put out. And it ended up becoming their best selling novel. Rachel Redd: Wow. Nick Roberts: to date. So. Rachel Redd: Wow. Nick Roberts: That was a big tipping point and okay, my goal now is to just make enough money to support my family and pay my bills while writing. So, Rachel Redd: Sure. Yeah. Nick Roberts: but you asked like how many books and how long it took. I was able to step out of the classroom comfortably and I think it was the 20. 2024, 2025 school year, I kind of reevaluated with my wife. I was like, you know, I'm only writing, I'm only putting like an hour or two at most a day into this. And I'm making X amount. Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: Imagine if I was able to devote my entire day. everything and put my heart and soul into this, what could happen? Now keep in mind, weren't just like relying on book sales. There were other factors at play. There were film and opportunities and I Rachel Redd: Hm. Nick Roberts: had interest from agents and and managers. So it just felt like so many things were coming together and I needed to make that decision. And yeah, my wife and I actually sat down and talked about it and said, okay, I'm gonna go for it. And with her support, like we were on my benefits being the teacher and with her support, we were able to go onto her benefits. And that allowed me go full time. And it always has not been smooth sailing. And I'd be lying if I said that it was not horrifying to, you know, I went to school and I got my doctorate in, education. I acquired my mountain of student debt and it's, Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: it's, it's kind of, it was terrifying to put all that work into something. Only to veer left into this other avenue. But I was like, this is what I've wanted to do my whole life. And I'm not getting any Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: younger. Might as well go for it. And it's not like my, I'm going to, you know, it's not like there's this national teacher shortage is going away anytime soon. So I put in my lead. Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: wave of absence and I did everything the right way and yeah I stepped into writing full-time and it's it's we've been that way ever since. Rachel Redd: Crazy. So it's it's new to you then. I mean, only a couple of years now. that's just it's a terrifying leap. But I'm glad you made it. I mean, I think that your books are phenomenal and it does ha have a feel of like you're just getting started, which is really fun. I'm excited to see all that comes and hopefully you'll tease something at the end. 'cause it's you said you're working on something. But before we get into any teasers or anything coming, we do have to talk. Nick Roberts: Thank Rachel Redd: I have one more craft question for for you before we jump into your books, because I do want to touch base on them that I think is so interesting. I read that you're like a write a spooky prologue and then see where the story goes. So I guess they would call that a pantser versus like Nick Roberts: Yeah. Rachel Redd: a full plotter of the book. how do you you know, because there's lots happening in your books. There's a lot of action, there's a lot of characters, there's You the all of these like demonic beings often you know, do these terrifying scary things crawling across ceilings and out of wells and, Nick Roberts: Everything. Rachel Redd: you know, the whole gambit. How are you keeping it all straight? Is there like are you like, let me just get it all out, let me just f let me flow, let me find the essence of it, you know, like you said, the movie of it, and then you go back and you there's very heavy revi revisions and rewriting, or you know, like the why that process versus plotting? Nick Roberts: would say when I think about having to plot out a novel, yes, it would certainly make it easy to have that roadmap whenever I start writing. But it Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: would also feel like Like I've done it before. I've done both. I've plotted, but I much prefer going the pantsing route. it would, it, feels like I'm watching a movie that I just finished watching and I'm re I'm starting it over again and, and just watching the same movie again. And it, it, it kind of got boring. honestly. So Rachel Redd: Hm. Nick Roberts: going the pantsing route and you know, I heard this quote from Stephen Graham Jones where he said that he loves writing himself into a corner because he becomes a better writer every time he writes his

way out of it. And gave me the excitement authors at that level, who I consider to be the top tier, are still able to craft a story on the fly. but as far as like revisions, they're surprisingly there, there are not huge story revisions whenever I write a novel and completely pants it. What I do end up doing is going back and adding more foreshadowing or making it look like I knew where it was going all along. Just with a few, Rachel Redd: Ha ha. Nick Roberts: just with a few tweaks. Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: here and there. But yeah, I remember that I had with the my traditionally published book with Simon and Schuster and Athon Books is Lila in the Flesh. And whenever I Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: whenever I pitched that novel to the people at Simon Maverick, who's the audio division of Simon Schuster, They said, okay, Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: we dig the pitch, write the first three chapters and then give us a detailed synopsis. And I said, okay. And emailed again, I don't know why Stephen Graham Jones takes the time to respond to my emails, but I emailed him and I said, I know that you're at a point in life where you can write anything you want and people will publish it. Back when you were just getting started and you were forced to outline something, what did you do? And he said, Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: he said, I wrote enough of an outline to prove that I could tell a story. And then I threw it in the trash once they approved it. Rachel Redd: Ha. That's awesome. Nick Roberts: So that's kind of what I did with Lila and the Flesh. I wrote the first three chapters completely pantsing it. And then I had a good idea of what I was going to have happen in the story. And I wrote like a 12 page detailed outline. And I would say probably half of that ended up staying in the novel. And it just went off the rails on the other half. Rachel Redd: Yeah. Ha, that's so interesting. I love that. I need to get Steven on the show. He he's on my list for sure. I want to ask him all about that. That's crazy. Nick Roberts: Yeah. Rachel Redd: I yeah, I've I just I think I've talked to enough authors now that the difference in how you actually craft, like do the hard shit up front of making the novel a novel is super fascinating to me. So I always like to geek out and ask craft questions for readers who maybe don't care, but I care. It's it's just like so yeah, it's it's miraculous how you all work so differently, but yet all have so so much similarity at as well. So it's just like really fun. okay let's talk about your books because obviously the people who listen to the show, they're horror fans and they they want to hear all of the twisted insides of Nick Roberts' brain on especially the the Exorcist House series trilogy, but also Mean Spirited. That's a really that's one I read in the last couple of months after the trilogy that has just really stuck with me for a long time. Anathema I haven't read yet. it's on my list and it is your debut, as you said. it did it you said it had a small release but it did win the Horror Authors Guild debut novel award, which is amazing. So how did that feel right out the gate to get recognition like that? Nick Roberts: it was validating. That's for sure. It, it, I remember when I got the news that it was up for the award, that I was not going to let it be a make or break moment at all. because my, passion for writing, having that in me is what I held dear. And early on I was like, I am not going to let. reviews, positive or negative influence how I get the story out. Like the narrative has to be king and I'm in service Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: to the narrative. having said that, it was thrilling to get that award. And I mean, it's sitting up there on my display shelf with some other awards. But it's at the end of the day and I've hosted and created my own award show at this point and I've served on the brand Stoker award committees, juries. And at the end of the day, the more I'm embedded in the award process of it, the more I'm just like, Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: this is it's all meaningless. Like how it relates to one Rachel Redd: Right. Nick Roberts: one reader is more important to me than that trophy sitting on the shelf. I've had people Rachel Redd: Yeah. Well Nick Roberts: reach out and say that anathema, which is about it features recovery and addiction. And I've had a lot of people reach out and talk about how that book really helped them through difficult times or it helped them understand Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: what someone else was going through. And those, those emails and exchanges that I get means so much more than a big shiny award, but I'll take all the big shiny awards people Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: want to give me. Rachel Redd: Yeah, of course. recovery from substance abuse obviously pi plays a large role in a lot of what you write, actually. and that's because it's very personal to you. I think you're really outspoken about that and you do a lot of work outside of writing with recovery substance recovery groups. Is that this kind of theme, this there's like deep family themes, these deep, you know, the things that the we we often hurt the people we love the most, like we wish we we could stop, but we we keep doing things we don't want to. I'm thinking about mean spirited specifically, Nick Roberts: Yeah. Rachel Redd: where you just have this dad who is, know, doing his best but then also doing the worst. Like it's is a this it's very There's a real human aspect to that main character because I think that humans often try to get it right and get it wrong. they're doing their best, but they're still plagued by their own demons. And that kind of continues to come up in your work. can you speak a little bit to that from your own experience, whatever you're comfortable talking about? Because I do think it is really something that is Nick Roberts: Thank you. Rachel Redd: prevalent in a lot

of your work. Nick Roberts: Yeah, it is. it's sometimes it's intentional and other times it just comes out as as I'm writing and it's with mean spirited. I'll say with anathema. I wanted to write about a character who is in recovery who went up against the ultimate evil and never thought about relapse. Like I wanted to depict a character in Rachel Redd: Mm, mm. Nick Roberts: recovery and a white that Typically isn't shown normally a character in recovery Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: when it comes to movies or books. It's just like, okay, here's this person who's struggling to stay sober. Will they or won't they relapse? And to Rachel Redd: Right. Nick Roberts: me, that's, that's like the opposite of recovery. Like that's like, that may be like the beginning stages, which is more of what means spirited is. So with mean spirited, it's a guy Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: you're starting out with a guy who is at the end of his rope and he is at a crossroads in his life and realizes he needs to make a change. One way or the Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: other, bad things are going to happen if he doesn't change something. And funny enough with Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: me, with me and spirited, it was never meant to be about a dog. I sat down and I wrote the pro I wrote the prologue Rachel Redd: Ha ha ha Nick Roberts: and I was going to have something scary happen. And then I just decided that she was going to have a dog and the dog showed up and I Rachel Redd: Hmm. Nick Roberts: him a funny name and that funny name just wouldn't leave my head. I was like, I want to know more about this dog named Conehead. That's how did he get that name? Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: And so that's kind of like the beauty of the pantsing model is that it can completely Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: bring out this story that I had no intention was ever. That I could ever write or was in me. But, yeah, with, with mean spirited and with anathema, those are my two books that are really focused on, I guess, both spectrums of the addiction cycle, the beginning versus Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: versus the end. my short story collection, it haunts the mind and other stories that was released right after Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: the exorcist house. And it's. It's full of mostly, I mean, it has about half traditional, like what you would expect in a horror collection. It's got like, you know, my take on different types of tropes and things like that. But it also has Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: a lot of stories that are borderline, not horror. They're just super dark and they deal with the themes of like addiction or obsession, things that because I'm just fascinated by that, the darker side of human nature and exploring, Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: exploring the humanity that's inside of even the most twisted person. And I think if you can bridge the gap and make readers not only identify or relate to, but if you can make them sometimes empathize with a character that Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: does some morally repugnant things. Like that's when it's that's when it's a win for me. Like that's when it's like Game of Thrones level gray area characters. So yeah. Rachel Redd: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's awesome. Yeah, I love that. I think that that's really therapeutic as a reader because it allows you to just like be honest with your own like darkness, right? When it's reflected. And maybe obviously on a less extreme level for most people, hopefully, but it's just really good to sit with the uncomfortableness of The darker side of humanity and wrestle with some of those questions and some of the thoughts that you would have or reactions you might think about in those situations. And I just think horror in that way can be really healing and therapeutic and in and induces empathy. And I think that's one of the reasons why it's so important as a genre. and I hope it never goes away because I love it. Nick Roberts: Amen. Rachel Redd: Yeah. okay, so you write The Exorcist House. Obviously, this is your second novel, but definitely the one, like you said, most people know you for. it ends up on top ten scariest books I've ever read lists on book talk, Instagram, Booktube, all the time. I listened to the audiobook because I'm a big audiobook girly, and that was worse. That was a bad decision that I made because it Nick Roberts: Yes. Rachel Redd: was so scary. especially that opening scene with the with the exorcist sitting outside his house, going inside to confront the big bad evil before you even know what's happening. Before I just remember thinking, what have I done to myself? But I'm in it now and I have to figure out what's gonna happen. But like, holy shit, that's and I and I think that first scene did give me, I thought about it as I was laying in bed, which is you know, thank you, I guess. So how do you you said, you said yourself, you've scared yourself, you've made yourself cry. Like, how do you write a scene like that one? And then of course there are many, many more, and it does get worse. And actually the second and third book, like, I mean yes. Like, how do you continue to construct these terrifying scenes? Like, what is your your trick to going in and saying, like, I'm gonna try and make this scene as scary as possible? And then how do you know when you've accomplished that? Nick Roberts: I think it's all about what you establish before you get to the scary part. like I use Stephen King's short story and the movie 1408 as like the perfect model for building suspense because suspense is... It blows my mind, but suspense is just so underrated in horror. It's like people want to jump Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: straight into the gore or they want to jump straight into the scary moments without building the suspense. The suspense is, you know, you have to build your way up to certain moments. And if you do it correctly, Like I started off that prologue that you're

talking about in the exorcist's house, very quiet. It's this old man sitting by a fire with his dog and he's smoking his pipe and he's looking at the stars. It's very serene. But then you hear laughter coming from his house behind him and you see the dog's reaction. And he's still serene, but he's calming his dog down. And I was like, okay, the dog is trying to tell you something's wrong, but he knows that there's evil in that house. He knows that he's about to go potentially end his life in that house confronting this evil. And he's at the end of his, gunslinging days and ready. So it was very much influenced by no country for old men. I had like this vision Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: of like Tommy Lee Jones in that movie and in the book, The Sheriff, of a person who's battled evil their whole life and they're at the end of the Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: rope and they're ready to just go down swinging. So. And constructing that scene, much like 1408, before he even steps foot in the farmhouse, we've heard the laughter of people. We've heard like sinister laughter. We've heard things breaking. We've seen things Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: moving around in the windows. We're getting the reaction of the dog freaking out, letting the readers know that there's something wrong with this house. So all of those are Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: building suspense. So by the time he opens that front door, like I'm already on edge. I'm like, God, what are we Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: about? What are we about to see in this house? And with 1408, Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: it's the same way. Like Mike Enslen is a Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: haunted house investigator and a paranormal researcher and he has this long. dialogue with the hotel owner about this haunted room where the hotel owner is telling him everything every horrible thing that's happened in this room. So by the time he gets to the room you you the reader have this situational irony where you know, God something terrible is going to happen and Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: without all that suspense, the horror doesn't have this big payoff. So I would say for anyone who has been scared or had that reaction from any of my books, it's because I like to, I think there's an art to building the scare, to building the reveal. Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: And sometimes it can be that what I just described and other times it can be this very tender moment of a father tucking his son into bed and telling him everything's gonna be okay. Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: And he's walking out and he's about to turn off the lights and he sees a face under his kid's bed. Suddenly it can Rachel Redd: Ugh Yeah, yeah. Nick Roberts: be that fast where it can be. And I've had people say that my books have given them jump scares like movies. And Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: that's a very high compliment. But if Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: I intentionally try to sit down and be like, okay, I have to make this scary, I normally fall flat. But if I just let go Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: and just see where the characters take me, then organically I'll scare myself in some way and I'll find a way in which something can attack the main character or something unexpected will happen and on the inverse of that sometimes I'll be bored with what I'm writing and what's happening in the scene Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: and I'll be like okay I'm just gonna have the window, I'm gonna have a character look out a window and have the window fall and cut the character's head off and see what that does to the narrative. So, there you go. Rachel Redd: Yeah. When in doubt, kill somebody. Right? don't know. Seems like a good good trick for the trade. so demon possession has been done obviously so many times and so many ways. It's a it's a it's a classic horror trope. and you've toyed now with it s a lot. it it it it's obviously in in the trilogy of the Exorcist House trilogy. What about that specific trope, do you find just like so fun to keep returning to? Nick Roberts: Well, it for me the reason I returned to that trilogy after I wrote the Exorcist house and it blew up it went viral of course the publisher wanted a sequel I did not want to write a sequel Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: I had like my creative juices were telling me to write something else and that's something else that I wrote was mean-spirited Because I didn't want to just be pigeonholed Like I wanted to explore other characters and Mean Spirited became what it became. And then I ended up thinking more about a sequel. And I said, well, I don't want it to just be like a new house that's haunted or I don't want to repeat myself. So structurally, if I can attack this the sequel in a different structure that appealed to me. like a movie like The Godfather 2, where it has the rise of Vito Corleone, who's the godfather, and it fast, it jumps back and forth in time between Vito Corleone's rise and his son Michael's descent into darkness. Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: I thought, okay, well, what if I made that old character, that old exorcist from the first one, his rise as this backwards exorcist? Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: How did he become that? And then also Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: jump back and forth between that and the Hill family dealing with the aftermath of everything they witnessed in the first book and returning to that. And That appealed to me. So the structure is what got me to say yes to writing that book. And it was the most difficult book as a pantser I've ever had to write because Rachel Redd: Uh-huh. Hmm. Nick Roberts: I realized like if I'm writing something that happened in the fifties, it has to narratively make sense to something that's happened in the seventies or the nineties. Like So I ran into Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: ran into those walls quite a bit. But so by the time I got around to writing the third

one, I Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: was like, this is the one where I want to pump the brakes. I want to slow things down. I want it to be a story of a mother and a daughter. And I want it to be five pivotal moments in their lives. And ironically, Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: it took three books to get to the book that I think is most like the original The Exorcist. Like, that's one of my favorite novels of all time. like, I think like my earlier books of The Exorcist's house was more like a roller coaster ride, fun house, something like Amityville and The Conjuring. Rachel Redd: Yeah, Nick Roberts: It didn't really Rachel Redd: yeah. Nick Roberts: ask, it didn't ask like deep-heady questions like the Exorcist does. The Exorcist is a Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: seminal piece of literary horror. And, Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: you know, so, and then I'm like pulled out all these tricks and went full crazy with Exorcist House Genesis. So by the time I got to the third one, I said, okay, let's just slow it down. Let's get back to the human element. Let's get back Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: to this relationship of the mother and daughter. And ultimately in the first exorcist, it's about this mother who has to watch her daughter go through this and the horror is in the helplessness of not being able to help your child. It's not. Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: necessarily the demon. It's the feeling that you're losing someone you love. So I, Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: I can go to that well, and never get tired of it. So with, with the possession sub genre, like I'm a fan of it. I love those. I love books Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: and movies that deal with possession. So, Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: but I think that underlying fear. of you can't outrun something that's inside you is what really hooks me Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: with this subgenre. Rachel Redd: Yeah, agreed. I that was a perfect answer. so you know, we've talked now about how all of your books you've mentioned, like for you, you even said when you're talking about the awards, it's really more about the way that the characters in your books, and the books themselves connect with readers. and I think that one of the reasons horror is misunderstood is because people don't know that I I think at the end of the day, most of these stories are just about people going through really horrific things that are actually relatable. I mean, you know, take away the demons and a man struggling with addiction is just a man struggling with addiction, right? Like that is a relatable story if that has been your story. So how do you keep the balance of making sure that your stories live up to the scare because you do it really, really well and you now have this reputation for it? Nick Roberts: Okay. Rachel Redd: and so people kind of expect that and they want that. we love that part of your horror, but then tie it or keep it grounded in kind of what you were just talking about, these like really human characters that people can connect to and relate with, because I think that's what makes the stories really stick with people, is that like how do you maintain the balance of those? Nick Roberts: It's a trick because I think the characters have to come first. And when you're you're pantsing a novel, I don't necessarily know the characters well enough. So that's why I always like to start my books with an opening scene that I would like to see in a movie. And this book that I'm writing right now, it's like I've got a few more that I've finished and have sent down the pathways to publication, but the book that I'm working on right now that I literally just finished the prologue of is a scene that I wanted to see in my head. And I don't know who the main character, I don't know who the Matt Matheny character is yet, because I've created the opening scare of I've shown. what happens in the prologue and hopefully I've established the tone and the threat and what can go wrong. And now we're cutting to this new character who is going to tie in, of course, to the prologue. But I have no idea who this person is yet. And that thrills me, that terrifies me. because like I said, Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: I don't want to repeat characters that I've done in the past. I have to have complex characters. Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: But the beautiful thing is that I can draw from a well of human emotion and people that I've met in my real life and people that I haven't met. it's as long as I can create a person that hopefully a reader out there will identify with, then I can start like layering on more about that character. And hopefully Rachel Redd: Hmm. Nick Roberts: the reader slowly connects with this character enough to the point where they walk in, if this character walks into a bad situation, you don't want something bad to happen to them. Like, I think that's where Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: a lot of where the scare lives. Like there's nothing wrong Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: with and it's all about the book you're trying to write. I wrote this book called My Corpse Has a Heartbeat and it's the inverse of Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: that situation. It's from the point of view of the killer. And that was entirely intentional. I knew that it wouldn't be as traditionally quote unquote scary as other books. But I wasn't going for that with that book. I wanted to explore a person's psyche. And I wanted the scary thing to be the mirror. Hopefully I'm holding up to society and the thoughts that people take away once they put that book down. I want that to be the true horror. Rachel Redd: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: So yeah, there's just, there are so many ways that you can go about creating a scare or I just don't know the cookie cutter formula that's gonna always work. And I don't think, Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: it exists. I just have my process Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick

Roberts: where I try to fall in love with a character before I even introduce them to something horrendous. And then I'm Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: sorry I don't have a better answer or a more eloquent answer Rachel Redd: No, it is Nick Roberts: for that. Rachel Redd: No, it's fine. Nick Roberts: That's just my process. It's just like And I'm Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: at that spot right now where I'm like, okay, who is this person that I'm going to share my mind with for the next two or three months? And who are they going to be? And there are a lot Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: of variables that I have to consider. Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: yeah, coming up with a scary villain or anything like that, that's the easy part. Rachel Redd: Sure. It's the characters who your readers see themselves in that are more difficult because they're the ones I mean, they're just all of us, right? It's just the you know, I think that's actually something that you do really well in horror. I think a lot of writers that I read do really well is they just take regular people, right? These aren't they're just like a dad and his family and they're just doing their best and they're just moving into this house. And fixing it up and then suddenly they're being haunted by demons that live, you know, in the walls. It's like that is the piece of it that is so intriguing, is the reflective of it. It's like, this could be anybody's dad. This could just be this could be anybody's husband. This could be me. This could be my family moving into the situation. And what does that do to us? And what does it say about us as people? And how do we respond to that? Those are the questions that become so interesting. with character development. And I love that you put character f characters first before scares because otherwise it feels cheap and you do want to earn the scares. And I think you do it really well. so, you know, keep doing that, please. Yeah, of course. Nick Roberts: Thank you. Rachel Redd: this like so this leads right into because we're almost done here. We're almost out of time. So what is next? You're working on something right now, but it sounds like you you're, you know, months out from being done with that. So Do we have a release of something else coming soon? Like should we we be marking our calendars for something? Are you allowed to say? Like where where's the next book in the timeline? Nick Roberts: So I don't have exact dates yet, but there Rachel Redd: Okay. Nick Roberts: have been announcements made. I have, right now I'm working on an anthology called Haunted Minds, Tales of Possession. And that sort of started Rachel Redd: Awesome. Nick Roberts: with me wanting to get in the editor chair and just... go down the Rachel Redd: Hm. Nick Roberts: list of all of the authors I would like to see write a possession story. So I just emailed all these authors and I said, hey, if I throw together this anthology with this title, would you be down for it? And I got so many commit, once I got as many commitments as I needed, I took it to my agent. My agent took it to a publisher. And Zando is the publisher and they are actually creating an imprint called Evil Twin. So Evil Twin is releasing Haunted Minds, Tales of Possession. It's got a foreword written by Stephen Graham Jones. It's got a who's who of authors in the table of contents. And what was really important to me, not only was to get the big name, the big star authors who I wanted to see right in this, in this sub genre, it was also important to me to get Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: some, some new voices and some indie authors. Rachel Redd: Okay. Nick Roberts: So you're, so I released the full table of contents in the publishers marketplace announcement. because I wanted to see those indie authors who've never had a traditionally published book before all Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: in that same announcement with the Clay McLeod Chatmonds, with the Stephen Grandin. Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: so, yeah, I've got that that I'm working on and I think that will be coming out in early 2028. because it's Rachel Redd: Okay. Nick Roberts: such a big project. It's got 25 stories in it. And just assembling Rachel Redd: Wow. Nick Roberts: that was a strategic and logistical nightmare that I did not anticipate. But it's been a learning experience. Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: And I've been working with my editor at Evil Twin who's helping me logistically and editorially about how to this thing together. On just Rachel Redd: That's awesome. Nick Roberts: my novel front, this has been announced, Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: I've got a novel coming out soon called Can You Help Me With An Exorcism? And it, well, Rachel Redd: That's a great title. Nick Roberts: I can say this because It's I have an author friend, John Lynch, who actually messaged me and Rachel Redd: Mm-hmm. Nick Roberts: and was like, I have this idea for a story, but it's not my story to tell. You have to be the one to write it. And I was like, Rachel Redd: Huh. Nick Roberts: I was like, OK, I'm all ears. And he says, Rachel Redd: Ha ha Nick Roberts: says, what if a horror author who wrote a bestselling exorcism novel? gets a genuine request for help with an exorcism. And that Rachel Redd: my gosh. Nick Roberts: hook, it stayed with me for a while. It just wouldn't leave. And then the title, Can You Help Me With An Exorcism? I was like, I'm just gonna play around with this. So wrote this opening chapter where an author is at a signing and they're their newest release. They see this disheveled young boy at the end of the line who doesn't appear to have any parents or guardians with them. And by the time the boy gets up to the main character, the author, he has a copy of the author's first book, which was an exorcism novel that went viral that he can't seem to escape the shadow of. And the Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: kid asks him to sign it. And when he goes

down to sign it, he actually, the kid says, okay, well actually sign it on this page. So he's flipping through trying to find the page. And when he looks up, the kid has bolted out of the store and there's a note that says, my name is so and so I live at this place. This is my telephone number. My sister is possessed by a demon. Can you help me with an exorcism? And that's how chapter one Rachel Redd: Hmm. Nick Roberts: ends. that's figuring out what happens after that without repeating what I've done in the past was my primary Rachel Redd: Yeah, Nick Roberts: goal. So I leaned heavily into like the anti exorcism. and subverting expectations Rachel Redd: Mm. Nick Roberts: of what possession is with this one. So yeah, I've got that one coming out and I'm going to be in a few anthologies. The big one that I'm in is called Views from the Overlook and I'm just over the moon to be included in this. Rachel Redd: Hmm. yes. Yeah, I've heard about this one. That's awesome. Nick Roberts: So yeah, that's the, to play around in the shining sandbox for Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: a while. It was so intimidating, but working with Rachel Redd: I can imagine. Nick Roberts: Jamie Flanagan, was my editor, was just a joy. And we crafted what I hoped will be a terrifying story that will live up to the honor of being in a book that takes place in the world of The Shining. So, yeah. Rachel Redd: Yeah. That's awesome. That's so congratulations, that all sounds amazing. You are working hard. Nick Roberts: I try, I try to stay busy and yeah, book I'm Rachel Redd: Yeah. Nick Roberts: working on right now. I released the title. It could change at any point, but right now it's called Appalachian Chainsaw. So we'll see what happens there. Rachel Redd: Mmm. Cool. Cool. That's awesome. Well, we're out of time, unfortunately. This has been amazing. I think that you're like one of the nicest guys in the horror arena writing the scariest shit. And I just really love that about you. I think that Nick Roberts: Thank you. Rachel Redd: makes your w books just really awesome and important. I think you're you're you write horror with a lot of heart, which we need more of. And I'm really excited for all of your continued success. I will be a fan. I will always promote and read your stuff. And it's okay if I lose a little sleep, it's worth it, 'cause I mean I'm doing it to myself. But yeah, keep doing it, keep giving us those books that make us terrified and you know, Nick Roberts: Will do. Rachel Redd: reflect the human experience. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on the show and being here. This was awesome. Nick Roberts: Thank you. I mean, it truly was a pleasure and I appreciate everything that you've done, all the kind words you say. yeah, I'll keep writing and hopefully keep scaring. So thank you for having me on. Rachel Redd: Good. And I yes, of course, and we will keep reading as long as you keep writing. And to everybody listening, if you haven't yet met Nick's work, then you can start with the Exorcist House trilogy. It's a great place to start. and let it ruin your sleep like it has for so many of us. don't start it before bed, like I did, that's a mistake. And then when you're finished, just tug somebody or a dog, which will make more sense once you read Nick Roberts: You Rachel Redd: mean spirited. and just make sure you follow Nick on all of the socials so that you can find out about all the re releases to come because he's got so much stuff coming down the pipeline. as always, thank you so much for being here. You know that we couldn't do this without you. Thanks for sitting and talking horror with us. You know the drill. I will see you next week, same same place.