Bản chép lời đầy đủ của #563: Getting Started with Rust as Python Devs

00:04:32.880 I'm co-host of the Real Python podcast. 00:04:33.220 --> 00:04:36.400 So that tends to be where people, if they know my voice, that's from where. 00:04:36.760 --> 00:04:42.220 And lately I've been getting into Rust and figured you and I could chat about that. 00:04:42.420 --> 00:04:43.520 A lot of really cool things you're doing. 00:04:44.410 --> 00:04:48.220 I guess let's talk about getting into Rust. 00:04:48.760 --> 00:04:50.660 First of all, what was your background? 00:04:51.420 --> 00:04:55.340 Did you do C++, C, other compiled languages? 00:04:55.740 --> 00:04:57.600 Because it's a shift, right? 00:04:57.860 --> 00:04:59.620 Well, so this is it, right? 00:04:59.660 --> 00:05:03.360 You hear the rust is a hard language to grasp thing. 00:05:03.780 --> 00:05:08.800 And I don't, I didn't find it that way, but I don't want to diminish people who are saying that, right? 00:05:08.900 --> 00:05:11.880 Like this isn't because I'm so much smarter or anything along those lines. 00:05:12.380 --> 00:05:13.760 It's because I have that background. 00:05:14.400 --> 00:05:19.480 I was writing C when I was 13 or 14 years old. 00:05:19.640 --> 00:05:22.360 There weren't a lot of choices when I started out. 00:05:22.820 --> 00:05:34.160 So I have a grounding and, you know, I wrote device drivers and I wrote embedded systems uh don't haven't done it in a long time but i have that grounding that rust kind of expects you to 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:47.360 have and it's closer to the machine there's less virtualization going on uh it's a lower level language than something like python uh in fact uh bob builder russ and i were talking about this 00:05:47.580 --> 00:06:02.540 because he's got into rust recently and he came from php and python so from that it's this whole other kind of experience and he was talking about the fact that he actually thinks it's made him a better Python developer because now he's thinking about memory and stuff like that a little more 00:06:02.820 --> 00:06:13.140 than you necessarily would if you've just come from Python. That's really interesting. I hadn't really thought about it because you and I are, I think, around basically the same age, at least 00:06:13.220 --> 00:06:20.940 technologically speaking. And I remember getting the C++ Primer Plus. This is so nice. C++. 00:06:22.180 --> 00:06:23.520 It's so much better. 00:06:23.980 --> 00:06:24.180 Yes. 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:28.280 I just loved working in C++ and so on. 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:38.840 So I've never known a world where I came to Python or JavaScript or other languages where I didn't already have that experience of, you know, void star star. 00:06:39.080 --> 00:06:39.920 What do I do with that? 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:40.440 Exactly. 00:06:40.900 --> 00:06:41.680 These kinds of things. 00:06:42.060 --> 00:06:43.780 But, of course, that makes sense. 00:06:43.840 --> 00:06:47.800 You come from Python and PHP, and then you're like, whoa, why am I doing all this

stuff? 00:06:47.940 --> 00:06:48.540 This is crazy. 00:06:48.940 --> 00:06:49.080 Yeah. 00:06:49.540 --> 00:06:51.660 And it's, you know, a big part of it. 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:58.060 And I think the thing that folks who are coming to it from languages like Python find difficult is that whole memory management thing. 00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:00.460 And Python basically takes care of that for you. 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:05.240 And so if you've never had to do that before, all of a sudden it's like, I have to do what? 00:07:05.420 --> 00:07:06.680 And why do I have to do that? 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:09.600 And it can get a little persnickety. 00:07:11.180 --> 00:07:16.980 It's concept of only one thing can own a value at a time. 00:07:17.620 --> 00:07:25.100 it has objects, but the objects belong to somebody. And in Python, you just pass those things around willy nilly and you don't worry about it. And the garbage collector takes care of it. 00:07:25.500 --> 00:07:35.120 And that often turns into a compile error in Rust. And that's on one hand, it's the beauty because it makes sure that certain kinds of bugs don't happen. On the other hand, if you're not used to 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:48.040 it, you know, there's a, there's a joke in the Rust world that there are no bugs. It's, it's all your time isn't debugging. All your time is getting it to compile. And that's because there's a lot of that, Oh, I'm just going to pass this around and wait, I can't. 00:07:48.580 --> 00:07:51.160 And so, yeah, that there's a lot of upfront work there. 00:07:51.700 --> 00:07:59.080 And I think for a new developer, that could be very frustrating because, you know, you don't, you can't play as easily. 00:07:59.300 --> 00:08:05.020 There's the threshold to getting started with something is higher because you're constantly kind of fighting the compiler. 00:08:05.440 --> 00:08:09.120 The flip side of it is their compile messages are absolutely fantastic. 00:08:09.860 --> 00:08:12.820 They, so when errors happen, they're very, very explicit. 00:08:13.180 --> 00:08:16.440 they often include something like maybe you need to do this. 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:21.560 And from what I saw, they were right 80 or 90% of the time. 00:08:22.080 --> 00:08:32.520 So once you figure out the language, I mean like the, not the language of Rust, but the vocabulary they use for error messages, it's very much, oh, oh, okay. 00:08:32.640 --> 00:08:33.919 So that's kicking off the borrow checker. 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:34.760 Now I understand that. 00:08:34.800 --> 00:08:34.900 Okay. 00:08:34.979 --> 00:08:35.640 I'll go fix it. 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:39.560 So there's a few things you kind of have to learn to get to that, but it is fairly helpful. 00:08:40.719 --> 00:08:50.940 But again, that could just be my background and remembering days of C where the compile error was being triggered from three lines before it was actually talking about where the error was. 00:08:51.040 --> 00:08:56.980 And you kind of had to zone in around roughly where it was reporting it to figure out what had gone wrong. 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:03.640 So, yeah, there's been some advances in technology since we were tapping out bits and bytes on rocks. 00:09:03.920 --> 00:09:04.000 Yes. 00:09:04.840 --> 00:09:05.140 Exactly. 00:09:05.340 --> 00:09:06.220 Making sand think. 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:09.420 So I would like to just acknowledge it. 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:11.740 Six minutes, 57 seconds into the recording. 00:09:11.940 --> 00:09:12.520 Borrow Checker. 00:09:12.800 --> 00:09:12.860 Yeah. 00:09:13.040 --> 00:09:14.140 Borrow Checker's been shouted out. 00:09:15.680 --> 00:09:15.900 Yes. 00:09:16.400 --> 00:09:16.500 Yeah. 00:09:18.139 --> 00:09:20.260 Maybe we should just do the quick version of that. 00:09:21.260 --> 00:09:22.700 We'll probably dig into it a little bit more. 00:09:22.920 --> 00:09:24.840 Before you do, I just want to wax poetic. 00:09:25.680 --> 00:09:28.740 Think back to the days of back in the 90s. 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:32.660 I remember when I had my C++ Primer Plus book. 00:09:33.040 --> 00:09:35.820 And yes, folks, it was a book that was like the yellow pages. 00:09:36.520 --> 00:09:38.820 There was no, literally the internet did not exist. 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:40.280 Well, the internet existed. 00:09:40.450 --> 00:09:46.660 There was Gopher, there was Telnet, but the World Wide Web did not exist at this time, like not for four or five more years. 00:09:46.940 --> 00:09:50.240 Anyway, I remember thinking, oh my gosh, this is so hard. 00:09:50.380 --> 00:09:51.700 This is so much work when I'm learning it. 00:09:51.700 --> 00:09:53.960 And finally, finally I got it to compile. 00:09:54.150 --> 00:09:55.960 Like, oh, we're good at compiles. 00:09:56.140 --> 00:09:58.660 Like, no, no, no, no. 00:09:59.180 --> 00:10:02.960 That's just when the actual real hard debugging, problem solving starts. 00:10:03.400 --> 00:10:08.380 But you mentioned that with Rust, that the compiler checks are a little bit stronger. 00:10:08.700 --> 00:10:13.520 They check more things like proper memory management and variable sharing and things like that. 00:10:13.590 --> 00:10:24.860 So I think while it was a eye-opener that compiling was only the beginning of my suffering when I was learning programming, I think compiling does mean more in Rust than it used to in other languages. 00:10:25.300 --> 00:10:30.060 Yeah, there's a whole family of bugs that have to do with memory management. 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:33.260 And what's worse is they tend to be a tricky set of bugs. 00:10:33.700 --> 00:10:37.440 They're the kinds of things that will crash sometimes. 00:10:38.280 --> 00:10:47.740 So if you go back to C and how it stores a piece of text in memory, it has the, you know, like, let's say we're storing the word Talk Python. 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:52.700 Well, we take the bytes for Talk Python and then we put a null on the end of it. 00:10:53.040 -->

00:10:56.940 And the compiler, when the code is working with it, it looks for that null. 00:10:56.980 --> 00:10:59.440 And that's how it knows that the string is finished. 00:10:59.740 --> 00:11:07.140 Well, if you accidentally write something longer than that, there'll be no null and it'll keep walking past that into the next chunk of memory. 00:11:07.540 --> 00:11:11.500 If you free the memory up, but you still have a pointer that points into that memory. 00:11:11.980 --> 00:11:12.080 Yep. 00:11:12.260 --> 00:11:14.680 But your computer will happily read that. 00:11:15.140 --> 00:11:22.740 And if you've got two strings in a row, what'll happen is you'll get the first string and then the lack of the null, and then you'll get the next string. 00:11:23.140 --> 00:11:26.080 And you might get a wrong message on the screen, but it won't crash your program. 00:11:26.460 --> 00:11:34.980 But if you get a string and then some memory that is a little more tricky, then all of a sudden you might actually be doing something like causing your program to fall over. 00:11:35.230 --> 00:11:42.720 So rust isn't bug free, but there is a category of bugs that it just doesn't let you create. 00:11:43.300 --> 00:11:53.980 And that makes it harder to compile, but a beauty to work with in the fact that a lot of the things that you might struggle with that are harder to debug are gone. 00:11:54.170 --> 00:11:54.340 Right. 00:11:54.660 --> 00:12:04.900 You know, I thought the nature of Python is the looseness of the type system and the dynamicism of it means you can get moving very, very quickly. 00:12:05.460 --> 00:12:10.620 But if you're not using a type checker, type mismatches are things you discover at runtime. 00:12:11.780 --> 00:12:15.540 All of that is very strict and very well managed in Rust. 00:12:15.700 --> 00:12:18.260 And so those kinds of problems just don't exist. 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:20.000 That's awesome. 00:12:20.280 --> 00:12:22.680 It also takes it's also mind bending. 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:23.360 It is. 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:24.320 In some ways, right? 00:12:24.420 --> 00:12:37.680 It's the way you think the way a lot of the ways you think about solving problems in C++ or C or Python can be kind of the same in Rust. Some of these limitations sort of change the algorithms 00:12:38.340 --> 00:12:42.620 and the data structures that will work in those worlds. Yeah. Yep. Well, and, you know, take 00:12:42.760 --> 00:12:56.320 something as simple as an integer in Python. They're boundless, right? And if you're doing certain kinds of math, that's fantastic. There's no upper limit. Python takes care of all of that for you. It figures it out. I actually saw an article a couple of weeks ago where somebody was 00:12:56.540 --> 00:13:08.700 building a SIMD machine based on integer, based on, doing bitwise operations on massive integers, right? Thousand byte integers, and you can get away with this. And Python just happily 00:13:08.860 --> 00:13:21.940 goes, yeah, that's a really big integer. No problem. Rust is closer to the machine. So it tends to use integers the way your CPU uses integers. So you have to be aware if you're using an eight bit integer that you can't put nine bits in it. 00:13:22.300 --> 00:13:22.980 Things go wrong. 00:13:23.540 --> 00:13:27.980 Now the compiler, most of the time can catch that depends on how you're getting into that situation. 00:13:28.820 --> 00:13:30.900 And so it, it stops you from doing those things. 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:33.000 But of course now you have to be conscious of it, right? 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:35.640 You're making a decision when you're designing your program. 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:38.120 How many bits am I going to store this in? 00:13:38.340 --> 00:13:45.460 And most of the time that's not a problem, but sometimes that might mean you're hitting boundaries that you wouldn't otherwise expect to hit. 00:13:45.660 --> 00:13:45.780 Yeah. 00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:48.360 And even weird things like it's signed or unsigned. 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:51.000 Like now you can have negative numbers, not even negative one, not allowed. 00:13:51.340 --> 00:13:51.460 Yeah. 00:13:51.740 --> 00:13:54.160 That means 2.17, two, two, five billion. 00:13:55.639 --> 00:14:00.820 And interesting, like a lot of that stuff is in Python, but it's buried further down. 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:07.800 So you can get at some of those same concepts inside of Python, but if you're just starting out, you don't go digging for those things. 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:08.200 Right? 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:20.660 So if you're, you know, if you're playing with the network and you're trying to pack bytes together, Python has signed and unsigned and it has those sides pieces. And all of that is very, very important if you're constructing the perfect 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:35.320 packet. But if you're just trying to do math on the command line, well, you don't need to think about that kind of thing. Rust doesn't give you the choice. And that's not Rust specific. That's most compiled languages. They don't give you the choice, right? And it's also where the speed comes 00:14:35.430 --> 00:14:46.780 from, right? So that beauty of Python's limitless integer means there has to be machinery inside of that to handle when you make it bigger than what the current chunk of memory is. 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:49.260 And rust doesn't have that machinery. 00:14:49.470 --> 00:14:50.720 It just says, okay, I'll crash. 00:14:51.170 --> 00:14:53.600 and so it's, it's a trade-off, right? 00:14:53.740 --> 00:15:00.820 So you don't have to care for as much, but one of the reasons Python is slower is because there's the overhead that handles these kinds of things. 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:03.660 So one of the reasons, you know, the flip side works as well. 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:09.340 One of the reasons rust is faster is because it's optimizing for exactly what your CPU does. 00:15:10.040 --> 00:15:12.460 And

that less overhead means your code runs faster. 00:15:12.760 --> 00:15:12.840 Right. 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:17.340 You're never going to get a Python integer into a CPU register. 00:15:17.740 --> 00:15:17.900 Right. 00:15:18.180 --> 00:15:19.860 Like it's just, I don't know. 00:15:20.779 --> 00:15:21.180 Maybe. 00:15:21.460 --> 00:15:31.240 I remember when I came to Python, I did C++ and C#, all languages that care about the shape and size of these variables, numbers, and for 15 years. 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:34.040 And I came to Python, I'm like, I got to be doing something wrong. 00:15:34.460 --> 00:15:36.320 How do I tell it again how big the number is? 00:15:38.060 --> 00:15:41.340 Because what kind, like, is it just, is it a 64 bit? 00:15:41.540 --> 00:15:44.720 I couldn't figure out like, what is, how do I, it's going to be a problem. 00:15:44.800 --> 00:15:46.000 And then I'm like, wait, it just grows. 00:15:46.180 --> 00:15:46.640 That's crazy. 00:15:46.920 --> 00:15:47.120 Yeah. 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:51.280 Well, I think I started with Python more as a scripting glue kind of thing. 00:15:51.700 --> 00:15:56.660 And most shell languages don't have, like Python, just don't care about those things. 00:15:56.780 --> 00:15:56.860 Right. 00:15:57.300 --> 00:16:02.120 And so when you're using it loosely to glue other things together, I don't think that really kind of ever crossed my mind. 00:16:02.220 --> 00:16:14.780 And I think I got used to the idea by that time I was doing, you know, web servers and things that were bigger, more interesting projects. And I think a lot of this is where are you coming from and how are you using the tool, right? So I think for the first couple of years I was doing 00:16:14.990 --> 00:16:28.620 Python, I was writing, you know, at max 50 or a hundred line scripts to solve some immediate little problem. And it's nice not to have to worry about that kind of thing, right? So all of this really is, you know, what is the tool and how are you using it for what you're trying to accomplish? 00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:36.880 Yeah. And I was coming from scientific programming, like building UIs and other type of tools for scientist type of thing. 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:41.320 We care about the size of this number because science. 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:42.580 That's all what your background is. 00:16:43.940 --> 00:16:46.260 This portion of Talk Python To Me is brought to you by Sentry. 00:16:46.670 --> 00:16:48.800 You know Sentry for their great error monitoring. 00:16:49.150 --> 00:16:50.180 But let's talk about logs. 00:16:50.840 --> 00:16:51.540 Logs are messy. 00:16:52.100 --> 00:16:57.640 Trying to grep through them and line them up with traces and dashboards just to understand one issue isn't easy. 00:16:58.220 --> 00:17:00.260 Did you know that Sentry has logs too? 00:17:00.940 --> 00:17:02.880 And your logs just became way more usable. 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:09.300 Sentry's logs are trace-connected and structured, so

you can follow the request flow and filter by what matters. 00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:18.040 And because Sentry surfaces the context right where you're debugging, the trace, relevant logs, the error, and even the session replay all land in one timeline. 00:17:18.560 --> 00:17:20.640 No timestamp matching, no tool hopping. 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:27.300 From front-end to mobile to back-end, whatever you're debugging, Sentry gives you the context you need so you can fix the problem and move on. 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:32.559 More than 4.5 million developers use Sentry, including teams at Anthropic and Disney+. 00:17:33.020 --> 00:17:37.960 Get started with Sentry logs and error monitoring today at talkpython.fm/sentry. 00:17:38.360 --> 00:17:40.620 Be sure to use our code, Talk Python26. 00:17:41.300 --> 00:17:42.860 The link is in your podcast player's show notes. 00:17:43.360 --> 00:17:44.840 Thank you to Sentry for supporting the show. 00:17:46.380 --> 00:17:53.560 I do, before we get too much farther jumping into it, I do want to point out that you wrote the Up and Running with Rust course over at Talk Python. 00:17:53.860 --> 00:17:54.540 So thank you for that. 00:17:54.790 --> 00:17:55.900 I really enjoy this course. 00:17:56.100 --> 00:17:58.280 It's both very educational and funny. 00:17:59.140 --> 00:17:59.660 I try. 00:18:00.120 --> 00:18:00.720 Thank you for that. 00:18:00.840 --> 00:18:05.660 The beauty of doing this kind of stuff with a sense of humor is you don't actually have to be a comedian. 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:09.780 It's not like everything is a joke, but you can stick some humor in once in a while. 00:18:10.080 --> 00:18:17.520 So I do wonder occasionally whether, again, because of the similar generation, half the jokes might have been aimed specifically at you. 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:21.060 So just because you find it funny doesn't mean other people will. 00:18:21.500 --> 00:18:23.660 I think they will. At least the lightheartedness. 00:18:23.740 --> 00:18:24.460 We'll see what happens. 00:18:26.460 --> 00:18:27.900 We'll come back to that at the end. 00:18:28.080 --> 00:18:29.800 This is kind of not exactly the same. 00:18:29.940 --> 00:18:33.740 It's not just that we're going to turn the course in the podcast, but it's inspired some of our concepts. 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:38.380 Now, I want to start by talking about Rust. 00:18:39.240 --> 00:18:44.500 Just some examples before we dive into how is it compared to Python. 00:18:44.860 --> 00:18:47.680 We've touched on a little bit of that, but there's a bunch of differences and so on. 00:18:48.060 --> 00:18:53.100 But let's just appreciate some of the things like Pydantic, Ruff. 00:18:53.540 --> 00:18:56.720 Give me your thoughts on the last five years of these tools. 00:18:56.900 --> 00:19:00.660 have kind of supplanted a lot of things that were very well established in Python. 00:19:01.210 --> 00:19:06.240 So there's, there's, there's kind of three ways that Rust intersects with

the Python world. 00:19:06.800 --> 00:19:10.260 And one has almost nothing to do with Python. 00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:14.520 It's they've used Rust to build tools that are Python tools. 00:19:15.310 --> 00:19:19.440 The, they could have just as easily done that for any other language, right? 00:19:19.490 --> 00:19:25.840 So when you talk about things like the linters and those kinds of things, they're, they're useful because they're fast. 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:30.100 they are not, they're not really integrating with Python. 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.420 They're a third party tool that you're using to make your Python better. 00:19:33.800 --> 00:19:42.860 And I think so some of the, some of the popularity in that has come out of the fact that a lot of the tools we've been using historically in the Python world have been written in Python. 00:19:43.290 --> 00:19:45.280 And so they've been very slow. 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:48.300 And most of the time that doesn't matter. 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:55.440 You know, there's that, you know, that programming world of, oh, I'll just go get another cup of coffee and it'll be done when it comes back. 00:19:55.840 --> 00:20:02.120 But your world shifts when you start seeing, you know, orders of magnitude, right? 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:10.000 Like 10% faster, you're not going to notice it when you're starting to talk multiple zeros times faster, this changes things. 00:20:10.460 --> 00:20:15.740 And I think there were a couple of key libraries that started doing this and everyone kind of went, oh, wait a second. 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:17.580 There's some, there's some value to this. 00:20:17.940 --> 00:20:24.440 And so I think there's been this real spring up of things written in Rust that make Python development easier. 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:33.140 Yeah, I think the one that was most stark to me was Ruff because it was just unreasonably fast. 00:20:33.320 --> 00:20:33.460 Yes. 00:20:34.540 --> 00:20:39.180 I remember running on the Talk Python training, all the courses, like that app. 00:20:39.380 --> 00:20:41.360 And that app is much bigger than people think from the outside. 00:20:41.660 --> 00:20:47.520 It's 170,000 lines of Python or something, which is not huge, but it's not a toy, right? 00:20:47.840 --> 00:20:50.960 And so I remember running Ruff on it and it goes, found these four hours. 00:20:50.980 --> 00:20:52.280 I'm like, yeah, no, you didn't. 00:20:52.280 --> 00:20:52.960 Wait, wait. 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:57.720 Did I not tell it to like go into the subject? 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.660 It's like, did you stop after you found four errors? 00:21:00.780 --> 00:21:01.360 I don't understand. 00:21:01.580 --> 00:21:02.440 How can you be finished? 00:21:02.800 --> 00:21:03.580 How can you be finished? 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:06.640 You like literally parse the entire thing for a hundred rules. 00:21:07.140 --> 00:21:08.980 And it was like, enter answer. 00:21:09.060 --> 00:21:10.000 I'm like, what? 00:21:10.300 --> 00:21:11.140 I just don't understand. 00:21:11.760 --> 00:21:11.920 Yeah. 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:12.400 Yeah. 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:16.820 And then there's something different here, you know? 00:21:17.100 --> 00:21:17.240 Yep. 00:21:17.740 --> 00:21:21.180 I also, I tend to be fairly slow to upgrade my machines. 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:27.360 So I'm often a couple of generations out processor wise, and it's just that much more, right? 00:21:27.540 --> 00:21:34.460 Because like when you're, when you're operating on a slow machine to begin with, and then you're trying to do something like lint a couple hundred thousand lines of code. 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:35.060 Yeah. 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:36.120 It makes a huge difference. 00:21:36.380 --> 00:21:37.200 It makes a huge difference. 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:37.660 It does. 00:21:37.800 --> 00:21:39.840 So one of the categories is rough, which is really tooling. 00:21:39.980 --> 00:21:41.740 And you can kind of forget that it's rust. 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:44.680 Like it just doesn't even really, it might as well have been written in some. 00:21:45.060 --> 00:21:45.480 It could have been. 00:21:46.140 --> 00:21:46.480 Yeah. 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:49.000 And I think that's kind of the key to this category, right? 00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:53.380 whether it's written in rust or C or anything else is kind of indifferent. 00:21:53.700 --> 00:21:54.560 It's, it's a tool. 00:21:55.120 --> 00:22:02.640 they, they're particularly with things like linters, you know, the, the, description of the Python language is publicly available. 00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:08.820 There are tools out there for compiling, for compiling language parsers. 00:22:09.260 --> 00:22:23.820 So like you can, you could have taken something, else and use that to take the definition of Python and built a thing that parses Python in any other language. It's just that Rust seems to be, has, has become the thing that is now the way to 00:22:23.820 --> 00:22:32.280 do some of this stuff. Yeah, absolutely. And just give like other numbers, you know, instead of my own personal example that people can't exactly relate to for parsing for linting and pars, 00:22:33.060 --> 00:22:45.140 evaluating this, the entire CPython code base from scratch is a 0.3 seconds. Yeah. That's, that's like enter the three blinks of an eye. Yeah. You know, that's pretty ridiculous. Yeah. 00:22:45.340 --> 00:22:46.200 So that's one category. 00:22:46.350 --> 00:22:50.980 The other category is closer to our hearts with things like Pydantic and so on. 00:22:51.260 --> 00:22:52.880 So like I said, there's kind of three modes. 00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:58.340 The second mode, and I think it's the most common one, is because Py... 00:22:58.510 --> 00:22:59.260 And this isn't really... 00:22:59.420 --> 00:23:01.900 Again, this is one of those things that's not quite Rust-specific. 00:23:02.380 --> 00:23:09.680 Python was designed from the get-go to integrate well

with lower-level languages. 00:23:10.420 --> 00:23:18.100 And in fact, there's a good chunk of the Python standard library, which is really just a thin wrapper on top of the C standard library. 00:23:18.600 --> 00:23:21.460 And in fact, the older stuff in the standard library, you can actually see it. 00:23:21.740 --> 00:23:26.220 It's a little creaky in some of the naming and stuff before they kind of got consistent about how to name things. 00:23:26.330 --> 00:23:29.740 And you look at it and if you're a C programmer, you're just like, oh, I know exactly what that is. 00:23:29.960 --> 00:23:32.040 At least they don't use Hungarian notation. 00:23:32.460 --> 00:23:33.040 There is that. 00:23:33.320 --> 00:23:33.860 There is that. 00:23:34.120 --> 00:23:34.840 S, Z. 00:23:35.220 --> 00:23:36.740 What is going on here? 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:41.100 So Python has been designed to be able to do this. 00:23:41.560 --> 00:23:50.620 And it just turns out that I think a lot of people are coding in rust have found it easier to code than encoding in c that same interface that c 00:23:50.900 --> 00:24:04.640 extensions can use can be used by rust and so as a result libraries like pydantic libraries like polars they have written their library in rust and then with a very very thin veneer there doesn't 00:24:04.780 --> 00:24:14.700 take it doesn't take a lot of effort to expose that up and then python inside of python you can treat that like any other python module so you don't actually have to be conscious of how they 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:21.400 And as a result of this, you end up with a lot of speed up because you use that same speed that you were talking about with rough. 00:24:21.760 --> 00:24:26.340 But now Python, which tends to be a slower language, can now access this kind of stuff. 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:41.460 So something like Polars or Pydantic, where you're doing a lot of crunching and you want them to be fast and performative, this marriage between the dynamic library on the hard drive that is a compiled thing as a Python module, 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:45.040 that integration has been very, very handy. 00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:57.620 And I think this is the place where Rust is starting to shine because it's a cleaner, although it can be a little frustrating, it's a cleaner language than C. 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:02.440 There's a learning curve, but there are a lot of things it doesn't let you do. 00:25:02.580 --> 00:25:03.720 There's fewer foot guns. 00:25:04.170 --> 00:25:09.520 And as a result, it's a nice marriage between a low-level language and some higher-level concepts, right? 00:25:09.760 --> 00:25:12.060 So it has things like iterators and collections in it. 00:25:12.380 --> 00:25:15.000 And so if you're coming from Python, that's like, oh, how do I deal with that? 00:25:15.080 --> 00:25:17.760 Oh, it's the same kind of for in loop and it's the exact same thing, right? 00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:27.100 So there's enough similarity to more

modern languages that this is becoming a nice sort of collection of pieces that worked well together. 00:25:27.460 --> 00:25:31.700 And in the cases of things that need to be really fast, this is a real answer. 00:25:31.940 --> 00:25:32.900 Yeah, absolutely it is. 00:25:33.300 --> 00:25:44.200 And taking your Rust code and exposing it as a Python package with the tools like Pyotr3 maturing that we're going to talk about obviously they they make it super easy it comes down to just 00:25:44.420 --> 00:25:54.580 okay well you need to build more variants of your wheels rather than just a source only one yeah i think i have an analogy for these types of things so we have one third uh category i guess which i 00:25:54.580 --> 00:26:05.919 would put as granian and other things which is a web application server that runs that is built and runs in rust but then your code and python still runs so i have i have an analogy chris tell me what 00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:16.760 think here we've got the caramel dipped apple where it's caramel is python okay so we've got the caramel dipped apple where python is on the outside with like a rusty core 00:26:17.040 --> 00:26:29.740 yep that would be pydantic we have maybe python maybe it's the way anyway we've got Granian and other things where it's like more like a caramel m&m on the outside it's like a 00:26:30.120 --> 00:26:34.760 hard shell of rust and then the side it's like some sort of crunchy nugget on the outside and 00:26:34.780 --> 00:26:49.040 the caramel's inside yeah the protective hard outside is the rust which is granian and those types of things and then we've got the tools which i'm thinking of is just like a solid piece of caramel but that's maybe a little bit backwards i i would go with the tools are like when 00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:58.840 you've got a slices of apples and a bowl of caramel that you can dip it in so it's a separate thing but you can mix and match so yeah i think we're stretching we're officially stretching this 00:26:59.020 --> 00:27:05.560 analogy and now i'm hungry but i know i know we were stretching but with your your slices of apple You've, you've perfected it. 00:27:05.670 --> 00:27:05.800 Okay. 00:27:06.060 --> 00:27:11.380 So yeah, so that third category is within rust code, you can embed the Python interpreter. 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:18.180 And so from a rust, program, you can now use an access Python. 00:27:18.590 --> 00:27:32.500 So you can kind of use Python as a scripting or, or configuration language within a larger, mechanism and something like granian where you want to actually run Python code for a web framework, that, you know, so that, 00:27:32.520 --> 00:27:43.960 that inverts the relationship we were talking about before. So yeah, so that's our three, right? So it's separate tools, the using Rust as a module inside of Python. And then the third one 00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:51.080 is using Python as a compiled library, using the interpreter as a compiled library inside of the 00:27:51.140 --> 00:28:02.760 Rust object itself. Yeah, I think that sums it up pretty well. Let's talk differences. I think kind of language differences, you know, syntax differences. It feels pretty familiar, honestly. 00:28:03.320 --> 00:28:16.640 Yeah. And I was about to say, you know, to start with differences, it might actually be easier to start with what's not different. The language itself, there are some things, obviously, if you've never, if you've never seen it before, it takes a little, and that's the same with any language, 00:28:17.220 --> 00:28:27.500 but it's not going to be completely out of nowhere. If, if I hand a Python developer some fairly clean Rust, you're probably going to have an idea of what it's doing. The loop mechanisms are the same. 00:28:27.980 --> 00:28:33.660 The if else is similar. There's no L if you actually use if else. I always scratched my head 00:28:33.780 --> 00:28:37.680 with L if in Python. I never understood it. Why you need a new keyword. It's such a verbose language. 00:28:37.900 --> 00:28:41.760 And then it's like, well, no, this we're going to. Yes. Yeah. Why that one? I have a sneaking 00:28:42.180 --> 00:28:52.680 suspicion. It might've made something early in the early days easier to parse, but rather than parsing two keywords, it gives you a keyword. A lot of the built-in mechanisms, like it's got 00:28:52.840 --> 00:29:07.700 tuples and arrays, it's got iterables and collections. So a lot of the declaration looks like typed Python. So because it is a strictly typed language and you have to specify what everything is, you do have things like the arrow that this function returns something of this 00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:19.300 type, right? So you've got that little arrow designator. But if you're used to coding in typed python which i'm not uh then you uh then then it's readable from that perspective it is yeah 00:29:19.430 --> 00:29:31.800 the types are quite quite similar uh as they you know um for the way you define them right if you have like a function or something then you just say like arrow goes to i always read that as goes 00:29:31.800 --> 00:29:38.200 to pool if it like returns a pool the variables are variable name colon type right yeah yeah and 00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:43.060 And I suspect that's probably because Python type libraries was inspired by some of this stuff. 00:29:43.180 --> 00:29:47.400 I think it probably flowed the other direction, but I'm not sure about that. 00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:55.080 So yeah, it's a lot of mixing in this, in the later, the things that got created later and typed later, like TypeScript is similar. 00:29:55.600 --> 00:29:55.800 Yes. 00:29:56.120 --> 00:29:57.560 Python types are similar. 00:29:58.360 --> 00:29:59.200 Swift is similar. 00:29:59.800 --> 00:30:05.460 I think it's the same that everybody stole from C, you know, C is the granddaddy of most of the languages we use. 00:30:05.560 --> 00:30:08.480 And then I think people

started adding these kinds of concepts to it. 00:30:08.580 --> 00:30:12.100 And it's like, well, if you've come from that other language, this makes it simple. 00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:17.120 So yeah, there seems to be a sort of family of how this stuff works now. 00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:17.540 Yeah. 00:30:17.600 --> 00:30:19.220 And someone decided all the types go after. 00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:19.840 Yes. 00:30:20.200 --> 00:30:20.280 Right. 00:30:20.520 --> 00:30:22.740 And see, you would say like int function. 00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:23.320 Yeah. 00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:26.200 That, that, that has taken me a little bit to get used to. 00:30:26.500 --> 00:30:26.580 Yes. 00:30:27.340 --> 00:30:36.840 I presume it me it's meant to be making it more readable and you see the essence, like the function name and the variable names, and then the stuff describes it after. 00:30:37.180 --> 00:30:38.440 But yeah, it's always caught me off guard. 00:30:38.560 --> 00:30:40.300 I'm guessing it's because it's optional. 00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:43.820 It's optional in Python, but it's not optional in Rust. 00:30:44.220 --> 00:30:44.440 True. 00:30:44.620 --> 00:30:45.320 Or Swift, right? 00:30:45.800 --> 00:30:46.260 Yeah, true. 00:30:46.580 --> 00:30:53.200 And I'm pretty sure that Swift was inspired by, like much of Swift was inspired by Python as well. 00:30:53.340 --> 00:30:59.820 Swift's an interesting thing to look at as well, like the Playgrounds, the REPL, a lot of the stuff there. 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:01.200 But okay, let's keep going. 00:31:01.360 --> 00:31:02.840 Some more similarities, all right? 00:31:03.260 --> 00:31:05.460 No, I think we've hit the limit of the similarities. 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:09.420 So it doesn't take long. 00:31:10.700 --> 00:31:17.920 It's relatively readable in the same fashion, but it doesn't take long before you have to kind of peel the top layer of that onion and then you're going to get into your differences. 00:31:19.700 --> 00:31:23.560 At the heart of it, one of the fundamental concepts is it is a compiled language. 00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:31.160 This is one of those things that I think I always find sometimes frustrates students because you end up with the, well, Python compiles. 00:31:31.460 --> 00:31:33.240 I can see the code right there. 00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:38.920 Python is a interpreted language that interprets a binary file. 00:31:39.260 --> 00:31:42.540 So when Python is compiling, it's creating a binary target. 00:31:42.860 --> 00:31:45.760 That binary target is not platform specific. 00:31:46.340 --> 00:31:50.640 It is just a, you can think of it as a data file the same way, like Excel is a data file, right? 00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:53.720 So when you, when you write a formula in Excel, you don't think of that. 00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:55.880 It's not quite compiling that formula. 00:31:56.220 --> 00:31:57.180 It's storing it in binary. 00:31:57.420 --> 00:31:59.620 And then Excel is running that formula. 00:31:59.980 --> 00:32:04.120 By contrast, Rust actually compiles to machine code for your platform. 00:32:04.710 --> 00:32:10.120 So when I come, unlike a collection of Python bytecode, I can hand you that. 00:32:10.500 --> 00:32:14.560 And I don't have to worry about what platform you're running on because your interpreter is specific for you. 00:32:14.810 --> 00:32:15.920 The bytecode is not. 00:32:16.180 --> 00:32:19.880 If I hand you my binary, if you're on the same kind of platform I am, it'll run. 00:32:20.140 --> 00:32:21.280 But if you're not, it won't. 00:32:21.560 --> 00:32:27.620 And so what Rust is actually doing there is creating a binary, tight binary file that is specific to your platform. 00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:28.820 And you know what? 00:32:28.860 --> 00:32:29.140 I'm jealous. 00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:32.460 I'm jealous from a Rust and Python perspective. 00:32:32.730 --> 00:32:36.900 You can compile it and hear, hey, I'll give you a file. 00:32:36.990 --> 00:32:37.760 You can run it. 00:32:38.290 --> 00:32:38.800 You know what I mean? 00:32:39.060 --> 00:32:39.380 Yes. 00:32:40.320 --> 00:32:53.460 I know there's a lot of reasons and it's not easy, but wow, would I love a Python --build thing and outcomes just, I don't care what's in the inner core, right? 00:32:53.460 --> 00:33:04.660 You know, back to the like caramel M&Ms, but just a thing that I could put on a server, I could give to a person, I could put in Docker, and it doesn't have to have a bunch of other stuff there to make it possible. 00:33:04.930 --> 00:33:06.360 Yeah, it's a pros and cons thing, right? 00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:10.700 So your distribution is way easier, but it's very specific distribution, right? 00:33:10.740 --> 00:33:21.480 So you end up, if you're trying to aim at multiple platforms, you have to compile across all of those platforms, but the distribution of it is basically, here's the execution file, go nuts, and that's it, you're done. 00:33:22.220 --> 00:33:24.840 Or the collection of them, if you've got dynamically loading libraries. 00:33:25.340 --> 00:33:26.680 So that is definitely easier. 00:33:26.760 --> 00:33:37.180 the flip side of it is things like repls aren't technically possible because it needs to compile stuff and in fact there's some hacks out there that are kind of hilarious that are essentially 00:33:37.940 --> 00:33:49.100 repl like things that are in the background are basically recompiling a program every single time you enter a line in the repl exactly so it's actually somewhere in there yeah it's actually 00:33:49.240 --> 00:34:01.540 maintaining this program for you in order to make it look repl like and as fast as rust is i found painful i played with it once in a while and i sort of gave up and just went back to i'll have 00:34:01.550 --> 00:34:13.379 my foo.rs file and i'll do it that way so yeah i could just see the background that there's like there's a fn main curly you know brace brace curly exactly and every line of

rubble is jammed and 00:34:13.460 --> 00:34:17.940 then there's a cargo build cargo run yeah that's exactly what it's doing that's exactly what it's 00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:29.500 doing this portion of talk python in me is brought to you by us i'm excited to talk about my first solo book, Talk Python in Production. It's an inside look at how we host all the Talk Python 00:34:29.720 --> 00:34:44.320 sites, APIs, mobile apps, and way more. Here's the thing. I believe most hosting stories sold to developers and data scientists are way overcomplicated and overpriced. You've heard me say you're not Google, you're not Netflix, so you shouldn't run your infrastructure the way they 00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:55.760 do. But if not that, then what? This book is both a blueprint for what I chose for Talk Python and a story arc of 10 years of running my own infrastructure from a complete newbie, 00:34:56.260 --> 00:35:06.560 apprehensive to Linux, to some pretty neat infrastructures code DevOps. It covers Docker, Nginx, Let's Encrypt, self-hosted analytics and monitoring, CDN setup, framework migrations, 00:35:06.820 --> 00:35:16.540 and a whole philosophy that I've termed stack native, keeping things streamlined, powerful, and free of cloud lock-in. And it's more than just your standard tech book. It comes with 00:35:16.560 --> 00:35:28.500 code and figure galleries on GitHub, a discussion forum, and something unique, over an hour of audio readers briefs, short conversations that bookend each chapter to prime your focus or broaden your 00:35:28.620 --> 00:35:39.640 takeaways. Oh, and 0% of this book was written by AI. Every word is mine, written over the course in high months, for better or worse. I've made the first third of the book available for free online. 00:35:40.260 --> 00:35:50.880 After that, you can grab the DRM-free EPUB and Kindle editions, and I'm working on a paperback edition as well. Please check it out at talkpython.fm/devops, or just click book in the 00:35:50.980 --> 00:35:55.780 nav bar on the website. It's a great way to support the podcast, and I hope it changes a bit how you 00:35:55.830 --> 00:36:05.300 think about running your apps in production. Okay, and so I guess, and that kind of, and we were already sort of talking about this, but this leads us to this idea of the strict typing mechanism, 00:36:05.700 --> 00:36:20.560 and that really comes out of this idea of the hardware, right? So your CPU has an idea of what an integer is. Your CPU has an idea of what a float is. There are different sized integers. How much memory is that integer going to be stored in? How much memory is that float going to be stored 00:36:20.720 --> 00:36:32.540 in? So not only is Rust specific about having these things, and you have to declare them when you're using them, but it also has that mapping to what your hardware does. So you have to make 00:36:32.540 --> 00:36:45.120 a decision between a signed integer versus an unsigned integer. So if you've never

played with this kind of stuff before, when you stick a number in memory, that number represents just some bytes 00:36:45.680 --> 00:36:58.480 and your CPU is interpreting those bytes to mean something. And if you could have it, you could have it represent a positive number. And in the case of a single byte to it, that's from 00:36:58.640 --> 00:37:09.860 zero to 255. But if you want to also have negative numbers and store it in the same amount of space, well, then now you have to sort of map something from 0 to 255 into the negative space. And so you 00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:22.980 end up with like minus 127 to a positive 127 or 128. Let's not get into that. But essentially, the computer is interpreting those same eight bytes in a different way to represent a mix of 00:37:23.200 --> 00:37:31.940 negative and positive numbers. The downside of that is you can store less. You can only store up to was half the size of a positive number. 00:37:32.270 --> 00:37:41.960 In Python, you don't care about any of this, again, unless you're doing packets, but in Rust and C and other languages like it, you have to actually explicitly decide which of these you are using. 00:37:42.560 --> 00:37:47.760 The upside is in Python, you don't care, but there is so much indirection. 00:37:48.100 --> 00:37:49.760 Yes, there's a lot of overhead. 00:37:50.260 --> 00:37:50.460 Yes. 00:37:51.460 --> 00:37:53.080 And all of that overhead goes away, yeah. 00:37:53.440 --> 00:38:06.800 Not only is it indirection and that overhead goes away, But can you put a bunch of Python, if I have an array of Python numbers, how are they going to land on like L1 cache? 00:38:07.160 --> 00:38:07.460 Yes. 00:38:07.720 --> 00:38:10.900 They're not going, they're all random places out in the heap. 00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:20.900 So, I mean, there's arenas and blocks and all that stuff to try to like get them closer together, but they're still just out there rather than I've got an array of 10 numbers. 00:38:20.990 --> 00:38:21.580 Well, guess what? 00:38:21.880 --> 00:38:24.780 Those numbers are contiguous in memory sort of thing, right? 00:38:25.460 --> 00:38:29.380 And you've kind of hit on something that is also very explicit in Rust. 00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:35.320 Now, you can start Rust programming without fully understanding this, but you're not going to get very far without it. 00:38:35.820 --> 00:38:39.100 It's fairly explicit about what goes on the stack and what goes on the heap. 00:38:39.250 --> 00:38:46.260 So again, if these are new concepts for you, when your program is written, the stack is where function calls happen. 00:38:46.560 --> 00:38:55.620 So when you move from one place in code into another in memory, what happens is the new address, the place you're going to, gets put onto a stack. 00:38:56.230 --> 00:38:57.520 The old address is there before. 00:38:57.770 --> 00:39:03.680 So when your function returns, it pops off the old stuff and then knows, oh, that's now the thing at the top of the stack. 00:39:03.820 --> 00:39:05.160 That's now the address I'm going to run at. 00:39:05.410 --> 00:39:12.980 And so when you add variables into, when you add parameters to your function, those are also getting put on the stack. 00:39:13.240 --> 00:39:23.860 So you end up with this little stack frame, which is the place you're going to be running and the data that goes with that function. By contrast, the heap is sort of a general space, and that is 00:39:24.040 --> 00:39:38.840 where you allocate things from memory. And longer lived things or things that you're passing around between functions tend to end up being created in the heap. And how Rust does memory management, we'll gloss over it for now, we'll get into it a little more later, I think, but how Rust does 00:39:38.860 --> 00:39:48.380 manage memory management differentiates between these two kinds of things and so again this is one of those things you you know you only think about the stack in python when it fails because 00:39:48.740 --> 00:40:00.500 you get the stack trace but otherwise you more or less ignore it whereas here once you start playing around with passing objects around whether or not you're being explicit about it that concept of am 00:40:00.500 --> 00:40:11.140 i in the stack or am i in the heap and who owns it becomes very very important and and this isn't new to Rust. This has been there in compiled languages. This is a fundamental way how modern 00:40:11.420 --> 00:40:17.840 computing machines work, but it's more exposed in Rust than it is in Python. You know, the thing I 00:40:17.980 --> 00:40:28.780 think is such, to me, it was a little ironic is Python, you don't worry about pointers. You don't worry about that. You just work. And then like other languages like C, Rust, C#, you talk 00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:38.840 stack, you talk heap, you talk pointers, you can dereference. Python is more pointer heavy than any of those languages because literally everything is in the heap. There's nothing that's even a 00:40:38.920 --> 00:40:47.340 number is a pointer to a thing in the heap, right? Well, this is how Python got away with not having pointers. It was everything's a pointer, so we don't have to differentiate. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 00:40:47.700 --> 00:40:55.760 That's like, if everything is a pointer, we can just treat them all like variables, right? And that made the programming simple and you don't have to think about it. But conceptually, Python, 00:40:56.140 --> 00:41:04.680 everything is in the heap. Everything is a pointer. Even the number one, it's a flywheel pattern. I 00:41:04.700 --> 00:41:05.960 And even that's insane, right? 00:41:06.140 --> 00:41:06.820 Like that, yeah. 00:41:08.060 --> 00:41:12.880 I have three copies of 254, but I only have one copy of two. 00:41:14.120 --> 00:41:14.200 Sure. 00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:16.680 That is really. 00:41:17.020 --> 00:41:19.340 Don't stop to think about it because, yeah. 00:41:20.180 --> 00:41:20.300

Yeah. 00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:22.860 For people listening are like, okay, they've gone off a rail. 00:41:23.100 --> 00:41:25.020 Like they're a little, what are they talking about? 00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:34.180 An optimization in CPython is the numbers, I think maybe negative five to 255, some range like that. 00:41:34.420 --> 00:41:34.520 Yeah. 00:41:34.620 --> 00:41:35.920 They're pre-allocated. 00:41:36.020 --> 00:41:40.460 And every time you type a literal number like 72, it's the same number. 00:41:40.740 --> 00:41:49.620 It just all points at the immutable number 72 rather than creating, you know, like whatever the eight byte or four byte chunk of it is on the stack. 00:41:50.040 --> 00:41:50.180 Yeah. 00:41:50.520 --> 00:41:52.580 I appreciate it makes it faster, but it's just funky. 00:41:52.660 --> 00:41:53.460 Yeah, it's weird. 00:41:53.700 --> 00:41:55.700 Yeah, it's something you don't want to think about too much. 00:41:56.300 --> 00:42:03.920 A couple sort of cosmetic things, which again, if you're from Python and Python's your first language might take a little to get used to. 00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:18.480 one is brace brackets so uh like most programming languages space is not important uh and that takes i i remember it taking me a while to get used to that switching to python so i have uh patience and 00:42:18.660 --> 00:42:24.280 sympathy for people who started in python and have to go the other way this is pretty typical of most 00:42:24.600 --> 00:42:38.140 programming languages uh the it makes the parser's life easier um and i think after having coded in Python for almost two decades, I think I've come down on the side of screw the parser. 00:42:38.600 --> 00:42:43.020 So it's a little bit taking a little used to for me to get back to it. 00:42:43.060 --> 00:42:46.740 But yeah, you, you put things in brace brackets to denote them. 00:42:47.120 --> 00:42:47.180 Yeah. 00:42:47.300 --> 00:42:51.500 I mean, look, the job of the parser is to make your life easy. 00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:52.620 Not the other way around. 00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:59.400 So I get, but I have run into situations where some little bit of formatting has been off. 00:42:59.900 --> 00:43:00.120 Yes. 00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:14.080 On my indentation and a reformat the code broke the code because maybe I had three indentations, three spaces instead of four for who knows, maybe I hit the delete button on accident or something weird like that. 00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:16.800 And I said, oh, well, look, this didn't line up right. 00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:18.480 Like I'll just hit like reformat code. 00:43:18.520 --> 00:43:20.440 And it's like, oh, well, that needs to go back to the left. 00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:23.300 And it's like changed actually how it works. 00:43:23.560 --> 00:43:23.640 Yep. 00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:27.840 So copy and paste is problematic in Python. 00:43:28.080 --> 00:43:28.200 Yeah. 00:43:28.500 --> 00:43:29.400 It's really problematic. 00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:32.740 And with the braces, like it could just have no indentation. 00:43:32.810 --> 00:43:33.900 It could be all gnarly. 00:43:33.910 --> 00:43:34.960 It could be minified, whatever. 00:43:35.050 --> 00:43:39.960 You just hit reformat and boom, it's reliably put back together well. 00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:45.400 So I'm going to give Python an 80% plus, 20% minus. 00:43:45.620 --> 00:43:47.340 I agree that it's nice. 00:43:47.600 --> 00:43:51.260 It's not there, but it's not just there is value to it. 00:43:52.340 --> 00:43:53.940 Structural correctness value to it. 00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:54.100 Yep. 00:43:54.290 --> 00:43:54.400 Yep. 00:43:54.780 --> 00:44:02.660 I also, you know, it forces programmers to behave themselves, which if you don't get your spacing right, your code doesn't work. 00:44:02.820 --> 00:44:04.300 It kind of makes the spacing consistent. 00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:05.240 Yes, exactly. 00:44:05.580 --> 00:44:14.660 That was what it was optimized for is like, you're going to make your code readable because you have to write it in a way that its structure and its readability match. 00:44:14.740 --> 00:44:15.580 And that's beautiful. 00:44:16.080 --> 00:44:18.980 But it is a little, it can have problems. 00:44:19.340 --> 00:44:19.460 Yeah. 00:44:19.680 --> 00:44:28.720 And being a veteran of the tabs versus spaces war of the nineties, eliminating that at the, at the syntax level is kind of interesting. 00:44:29.040 --> 00:44:33.340 It really is like, and you know what, there was a gosh, what PyCon was it? 00:44:33.340 --> 00:44:40.920 I think it was one Cleveland, maybe three, four years ago, there was a PyCon where one of the vendors clearly came. 00:44:41.170 --> 00:44:47.080 It was a tool vendor that came from all the, they weren't Python specific, but they made tools for Python people. 00:44:47.200 --> 00:44:51.800 and I would even maybe shout them out, or I'd call them out, but I don't even remember what it was. 00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:55.760 But they were giving away t-shirts that said tabs versus spaces. 00:44:55.890 --> 00:44:58.180 And you had to pick, I'm team tab, I'm team spaces. 00:44:58.760 --> 00:44:59.800 I'm like, what are you doing? 00:44:59.960 --> 00:45:04.460 Does nobody know that this literally is not even a choice in this language? 00:45:04.740 --> 00:45:05.660 Why are you here? 00:45:06.420 --> 00:45:12.280 It's a fun gag, but anyone on not team spaces is not going to run. 00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:13.280 What is wrong with you? 00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:18.920 Yeah. That's a team spaces versus teams. My code won't compile. Yeah. 00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:21.960 Yeah. 00:45:22.530 --> 00:45:32.660 An interesting side effect of this that I kind of like in this language. I don't know if I've seen it elsewhere. So like most languages, it has this rust has this concept of a statement versus 00:45:32.770 --> 00:45:44.640 an expression. Most things are expressions. And in fact, your brace bracket is the definition

of a new expression. And as a result of that, the end of the brace bracket can return something. So you 00:45:44.670 --> 00:45:57.580 can do an assignment to a collection of code in a brace bracket. So this ends up being kind of like an inline function. and so that's kind of interesting to me and it, it, compiles down 00:45:57.800 --> 00:46:04.100 beautifully. it's, it's got that, and then it does this weird thing where it's got implicit 00:46:04.100 --> 00:46:16.780 returns. And so I really wish they had not done the implicit return. I am never ever going to be on team implicit return. I just can't. It drives me nuts. and, but the idea of having, 00:46:16.900 --> 00:46:27.840 arbitrary expressions through the brace brackets is kind of elegant. So, so yeah, one point up, one point down, whatever. and then, you know, there's some odd odds and ends, right? It's, it's, 00:46:27.900 --> 00:46:38.280 uh, FN instead of def, which quite frankly, as soon as I saw it was like, yeah, that actually makes an awful lot more sense. That tells me what it is. Def for define, define what? What am I 00:46:38.380 --> 00:46:43.880 defining? FN? It's a function. That makes sense. And then one of the other things that I kind of 00:46:44.040 --> 00:46:55.520 liked a lot is, so they release a lot more frequently in Rust. So it's, there's a new, a new version coming out every six weeks, which when you come from the Python world, 00:46:55.620 --> 00:47:06.140 that sounds insane, right? Like how do you stay on top of this? But they've got this separate concept from versions that they call additions. And an addition is a three-year cycle and things 00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:18.220 stay compatible within the addition. And what's more, not only do they do that, but the compiler is able to compile to older additions. So when you compile the code, you can actually say, 00:47:18.300 --> 00:47:30.140 I want to be using an older addition. And so they have basically this forever concept of backward compatibility. So now it's still a young enough language. I suspect at some point they may 00:47:30.210 --> 00:47:36.040 give up on that. cause this, this to me smells of maintenance hell. It's fine when there's three 00:47:36.280 --> 00:47:41.440 editions. What if there were 35? Yeah. but for the, for the time being, although there's been a 00:47:41.580 --> 00:47:53.480 fair amount of change in the language, in the last few years, you're not screwed by it. And it's not this constant race to stay on top of it. You can just change the edition target and you're 00:47:53.520 --> 00:48:06.820 fine. So I kind of like the idea. I think it would be kind of neat if the Python compiler, maybe, you know, if I was, I guess the changes in Python aren't as bad, so maybe it's not as extreme, 00:48:07.200 --> 00:48:21.859 but I don't know. This just sort of appealed to me. Yeah, it does to me as well. I love the freshness of it. I just got a new version of Rust this morning. I was trying to update my libraries and tools, and it said there's a new version of Rust. Yes. Okay. So I think that might be a good 00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:29.980 good time to maybe talk about like getting started and so on as maybe start by installing yeah uh so 00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:40.200 uh the good news is if you're in the unix world uh some sort of Linux or mac os this is uh this is a breeze you go off to the website you copy and paste the command onto the terminal and you're 00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:50.380 more or less done uh we do the thing that we normally do we run arbitrary code from the internet that's right as root on our machine i'm sure it's fine yeah it's fine uh if you go off to 00:48:50.200 --> 00:48:51.740 So rest up, rustling.org. 00:48:51.940 --> 00:48:53.920 there is right on the front page. 00:48:53.980 --> 00:48:56.480 There is a little shell command that you install. 00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:03.020 This actually installs a tool called rust up rust up is kind of like pie M and that it handles installation updates of the language. 00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:10.220 It install, it installs, rust C, which is the compiler and more importantly, cargo, which is the tool. 00:49:10.420 --> 00:49:13.340 That's kind of like uv that is what you actually use. 00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:15.400 You almost never call rust C directly. 00:49:15.700 --> 00:49:19.300 So rust up handles the version management of all that kind of stuff. 00:49:19.960 --> 00:49:26.000 And once you've got that going, then you use cargo to create a new project. 00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:28.660 Again, very uv-esque here. 00:49:28.700 --> 00:49:31.980 So you would say, you know, if I'm doing hello world, it would be cargo new hello. 00:49:32.660 --> 00:49:36.800 That creates a cargo.toml, which is the equivalent of pyproject.toml. 00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:38.400 It creates a source directory. 00:49:39.260 --> 00:49:43.880 By default, it creates a git repo and a git ignore file, which drives me nuts. 00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:45.420 And I turned that off as soon as I could. 00:49:45.620 --> 00:49:46.880 I want to be in control of that. 00:49:47.080 --> 00:49:47.620 Don't do it for me. 00:49:48.260 --> 00:49:53.140 And it creates a little stub main file, which actually has a function in it. 00:49:53.610 --> 00:49:58.000 So you actually can run cargo new hello and you get a compilable program. 00:49:58.390 --> 00:50:05.400 Then you write your rest and you run cargo run and cargo run builds and runs the code for you. 00:50:05.550 --> 00:50:12.160 Now, because it's a compiled language, the result is a target that goes into the target directory. 00:50:12.690 --> 00:50:16.920 You could run that explicitly, but it's buried like three directories down. 00:50:17.200 --> 00:50:20.260 So rather than do that, you just call run and it does it for you. 00:50:20.980 --> 00:50:25.100 And there are flags you can use it to go from debug mode to release version. 00:50:25.780 --> 00:50:30.480 Your debug tends to be about 30%

larger because it includes debug information. 00:50:32.100 --> 00:50:32.820 While the production mode... 00:50:32.820 --> 00:50:35.540 That's par for the course for people who use those things. 00:50:35.720 --> 00:50:39.140 Yeah. And in fact, on Windows, it produces... 00:50:39.140 --> 00:50:41.080 I think in Windows, it's packaged as a separate file. 00:50:42.060 --> 00:50:46.800 The debug info is in a separate file, which is, again, a standard sort of Windows thing to do. 00:50:47.100 --> 00:50:55.820 Yeah, Windows often you can put, I forgot what they're called, but there's like a debug symbols that is a file that you can put like next to a DLL or an exe and it'll pull that in. 00:50:56.030 --> 00:50:58.600 And so it handles all of that kind of good stuff for you. 00:50:59.780 --> 00:51:04.540 And then this is then the thing that you would distribute if you were trying to distribute it. 00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:10.380 There's a command for building on its own and then the command for run both builds it and runs it. 00:51:10.680 --> 00:51:18.440 One of the things I'm still not quite used to is it outputs some information from the build before it actually runs the code. 00:51:18.710 --> 00:51:23.280 So you get two or three lines of info before you actually see the output from your program, which drives me nuts. 00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:29.920 But there is a dash queue to tell it not to do that so that if I'm running it, I don't want to see your compiler stuff. 00:51:29.990 --> 00:51:32.180 I want to actually have it run unless something went wrong. 00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:36.500 So yeah, cargo really is the key to doing all of this kind of stuff. 00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:42.660 Like uv, it also manages what they call crates, which are the Rust equivalent of wheels. 00:51:43.200 --> 00:51:48.300 There is a crates.io is the equivalent of PyPI. 00:51:49.040 --> 00:51:51.480 And you can write libraries and upload them there. 00:51:51.880 --> 00:51:59.760 And like with Python, this is a fairly robust community that's writing and trading code here. 00:52:01.780 --> 00:52:04.520 331,019 crates in stock. 00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:05.920 We look at PyPI. 00:52:06.600 --> 00:52:09.440 think we're at 750 the last time I looked. 00:52:09.790 --> 00:52:10.580 I haven't looked for either. 00:52:12.140 --> 00:52:14.280 889,000, 890,000. 00:52:14.570 --> 00:52:18.440 So there are more, but I don't think that is necessarily the core metric. 00:52:18.650 --> 00:52:29.140 No, and it's also not a fair comparison because proportionately the number in crates would actually seem smaller to a Python developer. 00:52:29.230 --> 00:52:34.380 And what I mean by that is if when you're coming from the batteries included world, yeah, there aren't a lot of batteries in Rust. 00:52:34.920 --> 00:52:39.000 So something as simple as like a random number, that's a crate. 00:52:39.860 --> 00:52:44.100 And they've done this to try and keep the footprint small, which I kind of understand. 00:52:44.900 --> 00:52:51.480 For somebody who's starting out, this can be a little, so like I had this, I'm paranoid, right? 00:52:51.700 --> 00:52:54.280 So I want to know where my code is coming from. 00:52:54.680 --> 00:52:57.460 If I'm in the Python world, I trust the standard library. 00:52:57.530 --> 00:53:00.180 If I stick to the standard library, I know I have a degree of safety. 00:53:00.520 --> 00:53:05.360 Once I step outside of the standard library, I want somebody to tell me they've used it and they trust it. 00:53:05.820 --> 00:53:09.840 And, you know, for certain kinds of libraries, there's enough press that you can kind of get the idea. 00:53:10.150 --> 00:53:14.880 I haven't yet quite figured out how to get that information in the Rust world. 00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:26.660 And because things like random, which you use all the time, are actually crates, you kind of have to do a little bit of the, there's a little more rolling the dice on do I trust this code to use it kind of thing going on there. 00:53:27.140 --> 00:53:29.880 But I suspect that's still my newness to the community. 00:53:30.140 --> 00:53:35.540 Yeah, perhaps. You know, Chris, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you. 00:53:35.800 --> 00:53:38.160 Yep, that's right. That's exactly right. 00:53:38.500 --> 00:53:43.020 And with the supply chain stuff, it means, I mean, it's crazy. 00:53:43.380 --> 00:53:46.280 In the world of the internet, they are out to get you. Yes, without a doubt. 00:53:47.500 --> 00:53:59.220 Oh my gosh. And sometimes you hear the pounding on the door. You're like, oh my gosh, go away, please don't do that. Let's just like reflect for a minute. We talked about like cargo crates and all 00:53:59.200 --> 00:54:13.440 all these things, we've seen a big revolution in Python packaging, deployment, flexibility, project management, all of those things. And much of that has actually come from the Rust side. A 00:54:13.600 --> 00:54:27.180 lot of the tools like uv and others are seriously inspired by cargo, the crates, and these types of things. But this was built in a world where PyPI already existed and npm already existed. And they 00:54:26.980 --> 00:54:37.040 could go really good. Ooh, that's not good. Let's do it this way. Right. So there's like this sort of interplay or this circling of these two worlds. Yeah. It's, you know, without, 00:54:37.410 --> 00:54:49.800 I'm not trying to start a flame war, but the decision that the PSF made that, managing packages wasn't really part of the language and that we should have this plethora of third-party 00:54:50.020 --> 00:55:03.160 tools to do that. I think that was a mistake. And I think the Rust people recognize that and decided to bundle this in. it's, it's a lot cleaner and there's a lot less wondering of what's 00:55:03.260 --> 00:55:16.620 going on. and, now in defense of rust, sorry, in defense, I don't know who I'm defending. Nevermind. I'm not sure whatever I'm going to

defend. I'm not going to defend. Uh, 00:55:16.950 --> 00:55:28.440 the, I think the target for rust is simpler. And, part of the thing that happened in the python world is because of that dynamicism it creates all these other kinds of complications 00:55:29.170 --> 00:55:35.500 um so yeah it's right my package also requires a fortran compiler exactly yeah right whereas 00:55:35.650 --> 00:55:41.140 because you're compiling these things down you some of that stuff goes away so so yeah it's it's 00:55:41.300 --> 00:55:55.780 it's a challenge i agree but also wheels do exist now yep in the python world created them and they didn't before and that was like a super hard problem because yeah everything needed like all these bespoke tools just to install something interesting. And then they said, no, no, no, 00:55:55.900 --> 00:56:08.860 let's just make wheels. You can just have like, why do we have to make everyone recompile everything from source? So they kind of got there. Another thing I think- They're making progress. Yeah, no, they're making progress. Yeah. Another thing I think is interesting around this is 00:56:08.860 --> 00:56:21.160 you talked about the sparseness of the standard library equivalent of Rust. I feel like Python batteries included the richer standard library. It is that way because PyPI didn't exist. 00:56:21.560 --> 00:56:27.220 The concept of a package manager didn't exist when Python, you know, and honestly, like what was 91? 00:56:27.660 --> 00:56:28.520 Like the web didn't exist. 00:56:28.690 --> 00:56:32.640 Like getting stuff afterwards was really, really hard. 00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:34.920 If it were easier, they may have made different choices. 00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:35.520 Yeah. 00:56:35.660 --> 00:56:38.360 It's, it's a consequence of this language being around since the nineties. 00:56:38.480 --> 00:56:38.540 Right. 00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:45.160 So the decisions up front were, and what, and what it was designed for versus what it's grown into. 00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:57.980 you know, that's, we should all be, as software developers, we should all be so lucky as having our initial designs become questionable because 35 years later, people are still using our software 00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:03.260 all over the planet. Yeah. If people want to criticize mine because it's so popular in 30 00:57:03.380 --> 00:57:14.780 years, I'd be happy as well. Yeah, exactly. All right. We've got a little bit of time left, but it's not a ton. I think let's focus on one more section and that would be, how do I go from 00:57:15.180 --> 00:57:20.760 Rust land to Python land. So there are different libraries for doing this. The most common one out 00:57:20.900 --> 00:57:28.480 there is a crate called Py03. And essentially what this does is provide you with the tools 00:57:29.060 --> 00:57:36.420 to align your Rust code as if they are Python objects. And then there are a couple other tools 00:57:36.920 --> 00:57:51.480 that you can use to actually do the packaging part. So what Py03 does is it defines the interface the compiled object, which is a dynamic library, so a.so file or a.dll, and then does that in 00:57:51.850 --> 00:58:02.780 compliance with Python's ABI. And then there are tools out there that you can use, which will put those inside of a virtual environment so that Python can see them. And then in Python, you can 00:58:03.020 --> 00:58:08.380 load that code that you wrote as if it were a regular Python module written in Python. 00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:12.600 The how Py03 does this is a couple different things. 00:58:12.940 --> 00:58:17.600 One, it has Rust objects that are compatible with the Python objects. 00:58:17.920 --> 00:58:22.220 So as an example, Pyint is a Rust object that represents a Python integer. 00:58:22.580 --> 00:58:30.840 So if you need access inside of your Rust code to the integer inside of the Python space, this acts as a mechanism to get at it. 00:58:31.100 --> 00:58:33.680 It will also map Rust concepts. 00:58:34.240 --> 00:58:47.000 So rather than using pyint, you can just use, say, a int32, and py03 will take care of mapping that up to the Python integer when Python's using it in the Python side of the world. 00:58:47.400 --> 00:58:55.240 The other thing that it does is Rust has a mechanism that is macros for changing how things get compiled. 00:58:55.740 --> 00:59:00.760 And py03 ships with a bunch of macros that essentially you attach to something like a function. 00:59:01.140 --> 00:59:06.340 So if you want the function or a class to be available to Python, you wrap it with one of these macros. 00:59:06.860 --> 00:59:12.780 It's just a regular Rust function, but the macro is what does the mapping and makes it available. 00:59:13.130 --> 00:59:18.120 So with the right use of the macro, you can say things like, you know, this is my function. 00:59:18.280 --> 00:59:19.060 It's got three arguments. 00:59:19.720 --> 00:59:21.620 These arguments need to map to this, et cetera. 00:59:22.120 --> 00:59:26.960 And essentially what happens when you compile it is all of this gets put into a.so. 00:59:27.420 --> 00:59:38.500 And then you use tools like Maturin or others that then put that into a virtual environment and to handle the packaging side of things so that your Python code can use it. 00:59:38.860 --> 00:59:47.840 And from Python's perspective, once that's installed in the right place, you just import foo from bar as you would with any other module and you've got access to it all. 00:59:48.180 --> 00:59:48.400 Interesting. 00:59:48.680 --> 00:59:51.480 Now, it doesn't have to be all or nothing as well. 00:59:51.820 --> 00:59:54.720 For example, remind me how to do this because I forgot how to do it. 00:59:54.820 --> 01:00:01.260 but you can create a project that has some Rust code and some Python code and then build that into a wheel. 01:00:01.760 --> 01:00:09.440 But you could say only part of my code is gonna be Rust and the rest of it that's

not performance critical, that's all Python all day long. 01:00:09.700 --> 01:00:22.540 Yeah, so for example, if you look at, if you pay close attention when you install Polars, you're actually getting two wheels, one of which is a universal wheel, which is because it's universal, it only contains Python code. 01:00:22.860 --> 01:00:37.500 And the other of which is it's figured out what platform you're on and gives you the actual compiled Rust version of the Polars library. So they've kind of got these two things going on. Now, I don't know Polars well enough. I've never looked at their source code, so I don't know what they've 01:00:37.560 --> 01:00:47.520 got in each one of those packages, but they've built something that is comprised of both of those things. In their case, it's in two separate wheels. It doesn't have to be. And essentially, 01:00:47.820 --> 01:01:02.360 you're using a tool like Mature and it takes care of this for you. So if you're after a, if you're after building a library where there's a part of it that has to be very performant, but you want to write most of it in Python because, you know, it's easier to code in, 01:01:03.140 --> 01:01:06.480 then there's, you basically do that and Maturin will let you bundle all of that up. 01:01:07.380 --> 01:01:21.380 And this is no different than any other plugin mechanism. It's just that these are the tools that Rust provides to build those kinds of plugins. So if you think of tools like Polars or NumPy or any others that do this kind of concept where some of it's written in a lower 01:01:21.400 --> 01:01:23.740 level language, I O three just lets you do that. 01:01:23.920 --> 01:01:33.320 I think there's a lot of, a lot of low hanging fruit for people to go apply a profiler to their code and say, no, it really only matters at least 20 lines of code here. 01:01:33.460 --> 01:01:33.520 Yeah. 01:01:33.700 --> 01:01:34.220 What if? 01:01:34.580 --> 01:01:34.740 Yeah. 01:01:35.160 --> 01:01:42.580 The challenge you have to pay is every time you do this, you're crossing a boundary and there is a cost to crossing that boundary. 01:01:43.020 --> 01:01:56.140 So, there, if you're writing the code in such a fashion that you're constantly going back and forth or your objects are constantly going back and there's overhead to that so writing in and rust doesn't guarantee that it will be faster 01:01:56.740 --> 01:02:10.300 could make it slower it could make it slower like with everything uh but if you're doing something you know it's something like polar's where you're doing big number crunching uh and you're you know you're calling into the api and then letting it crunch and then it spit another answer out then 01:02:10.500 --> 01:02:20.920 yeah you can you can see a significant speed up yeah or pydantic where it comes in as json anyway and it's got to be transformed to something, let that happen in Rust and then talk to it. 01:02:21.260 --> 01:02:23.080 So yeah, this is really good. 01:02:23.500 --> 01:02:29.860 I'm going to have Pablo and Laszlo on to talk about the new profiler that's in 3.15. 01:02:30.140 --> 01:02:31.540 That's really interesting, the profiling module. 01:02:31.980 --> 01:02:37.200 One of the things that's fascinating about that, I don't have anything in production in 3.15. 01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:40.900 All my stuff's in 3.14 or lower, like older. 01:02:41.280 --> 01:02:49.760 Now, one of the things that's cool about the new profiler is you can attach it to stuff running in production, profile it, and then walk away. 01:02:49.850 --> 01:02:52.120 You know, like, hey, let's just go, it's running. 01:02:52.280 --> 01:02:54.760 A bunch of people are using this app, like it's an API or something. 01:02:55.140 --> 01:02:58.880 Let's just hook onto it for 30 seconds, get some data and step back. 01:02:59.150 --> 01:03:05.200 And then maybe you could look at, oh, actually, if we could just make this one part faster, that would really be a big deal. 01:03:05.290 --> 01:03:08.100 So I think the possibility for this is just getting easier. 01:03:08.420 --> 01:03:16.380 Yeah, well, and, you know, the general advice I give folks when I talk about optimization is don't and then measure, right? 01:03:16.760 --> 01:03:21.320 So when you're trying to figure it out upfront, it doesn't matter how good you are at this. 01:03:21.420 --> 01:03:24.640 You tend to make the wrong assumptions eventually. 01:03:25.200 --> 01:03:29.940 And so, yeah, build something, then profile it, and then figure out where you're spending all your time. 01:03:30.260 --> 01:03:32.660 Yeah, I've had a couple of experiences. 01:03:32.940 --> 01:03:39.740 I won't go into the details of it, but I've told it a time or two way, way back in the day where I was so wrong. 01:03:40.040 --> 01:03:40.100 Yep. 01:03:40.580 --> 01:03:43.060 So wrong about what was slow and what was fast. 01:03:43.170 --> 01:03:47.200 And if I had just pursued my intuition, it would have been months of bad choices. 01:03:47.670 --> 01:03:47.860 Yeah. 01:03:48.400 --> 01:03:58.700 And there's a concept called Amdahl's Law, which is essentially, I'm going to oversimplify it, but if your code is spending 10% of its time in that place, 01:03:59.859 --> 01:04:06.720 speeding that up by 2x is only ever going to get you a 10% gain because your code's spending the other 90. 01:04:07.380 --> 01:04:10.260 There's a diminishing return aspect to it as well. 01:04:10.600 --> 01:04:20.860 And as programmers, I think we often get tied up in the, oh, wouldn't it be cool if I made this code three times harder to read and it'll be, you know, half a millisecond faster. 01:04:20.970 --> 01:04:22.240 And how often do you call that? 01:04:22.440 --> 01:04:22.940 Once a year. 01:04:23.170 --> 01:04:23.720 Oh, okay. 01:04:23.980 --> 01:04:30.160 Well, there's a month of your life you got back in order to optimize by a millisecond, right? 01:04:30.380 --> 01:04:33.060 Where you got to find the stuff

that is actually causing the problem. 01:04:33.600 --> 01:04:33.740 Yeah. 01:04:34.050 --> 01:04:36.100 You gave a 50% speed up example. 01:04:36.320 --> 01:04:38.860 Like, let's take it to an insane level. 01:04:39.120 --> 01:04:42.880 20% of your code, 20% of time you spend in some bit of code. 01:04:43.120 --> 01:04:49.620 If you could make it infinitely faster, the best you're going to achieve is your program is going to be 20% faster. 01:04:50.260 --> 01:04:53.660 You know, maybe, oh, I was running this on a single CPU thread. 01:04:54.040 --> 01:04:59.540 I'm going to actually get a GPU machine with a crazy thing and do a bunch of GPU programming. 01:04:59.660 --> 01:05:03.160 And I can parallelize this and I'll get it down to a thousand times faster. 01:05:03.600 --> 01:05:05.660 Is that worth a 20% speed up? 01:05:05.700 --> 01:05:08.800 If it takes five milliseconds, you've saved one millisecond. 01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:18.640 hooray look how much harder your life and how much more expensive deployment is and so on right yeah yeah so it's certainly uh something that people should keep in mind all right well i think 01:05:19.300 --> 01:05:30.540 let's let's wrap things up here rust is super interesting i think it's got a place in python and even if you don't want to write rust a lot of these really important libraries are 01:05:31.080 --> 01:05:41.260 somewhat backed by rust so you want to read them and maybe contribute to the to the caramely shell or the noogity inner, but you still kind of want to understand the bits. I think maybe a quick 01:05:41.440 --> 01:05:51.720 shout out to your course. People should definitely give this a listen or a watch. Just talkpython.fm, click on course at the top. Rust will be, the Rust course will be right at the top of that list. 01:05:52.060 --> 01:05:53.940 Yeah, it was fun to build. I hope people enjoy it. 01:05:54.260 --> 01:06:02.980 Yeah, I think they will. And more importantly, more broadly, I suppose, people want to get started with Rust. You've inspired them, Chris. They're ready. What do you tell them? 01:06:04.160 --> 01:06:06.580 Rustlang.org is pretty much the place to start. 01:06:08.040 --> 01:06:10.040 It's remarkably well documented. 01:06:10.340 --> 01:06:11.980 There's a lot of good guides and things out there. 01:06:13.880 --> 01:06:18.060 The documentation right on that site, they've got the Rust book right there. 01:06:18.660 --> 01:06:20.580 It's quite easy to follow. 01:06:20.940 --> 01:06:23.620 It has a lot of really, really good examples in it. 01:06:24.100 --> 01:06:25.980 So that's definitely a place to go. 01:06:26.460 --> 01:06:33.480 The other space, just a bit of a shout out would be, there's a awesome list called Awesome Python RS. 01:06:33.980 --> 01:06:39.380 And it's just a massive list of the tools and libraries that use Rust in the Python space. 01:06:39.870 --> 01:06:50.280 So if you're looking for, rather than like education book examples, you're looking for places that actually use it and you want to, and you want to troll through some code, that's a great 01:06:50.370 --> 01:06:55.040 place to go looking for interesting libraries to take a look at. Yeah. I second that. I'm, 01:06:55.160 --> 01:07:03.660 I'm such a sucker for awesome lists. Yes. That could be, you want to watch a movie? I found a new awesome list. I'm just going to poke around this for like the next half hour, if you don't 01:07:03.800 --> 01:07:15.140 mind, you know? Yeah. And, you know, there's some very classic examples on this list of like drop-in replacement for speed things, right? So there's a cryptography library and there's a JSON library, 01:07:15.420 --> 01:07:30.020 both of which are basically drop-in replacements for stuff from the standard library. And because they're written in Rust, they're screamingly faster. So, you know, that example of looking for the thing that you need to optimize, there's some good ideas in there that you can dig into. 01:07:30.240 --> 01:07:38.880 Yeah. And you know, I gave you the example of like, well, we could just rewrite this bit of your slow code and rust. It might already be written as a library. 01:07:38.880 --> 01:07:40.200 Someone else may have done it as well. Yes. 01:07:40.460 --> 01:07:43.400 Yeah. Just swap, swap your JSON parsing library or whatever. Right. 01:07:43.600 --> 01:07:54.360 And, and a lot of the, Python things that are like Python libraries that use rust, a lot of them are actually just thin wrappers to existing rust libraries. 01:07:54.760 --> 01:08:03.480 So that somebody is rather than writing something from scratch, they're like, Hey, there's this neat library in Rust that does this thing that I like, and I wish it was in Python. 01:08:03.660 --> 01:08:10.600 And they write like four lines of code that are essentially the API wrapper down to make it, expose it as a module. 01:08:10.740 --> 01:08:16.180 And now we can take advantage of the fact that there's this whole other community that's trying to do these efficient things. 01:08:16.640 --> 01:08:24.839 And we don't have to trust the suitability and correctness of somebody saying, hey, I spent a weekend rewriting the JSON parsing. 01:08:24.920 --> 01:08:26.880 Like, ah, brightening. 01:08:26.920 --> 01:08:32.960 These are things with thousands of stars and many contributors because the Rust community themselves are using them, right? 01:08:33.240 --> 01:08:33.580 Right, right. 01:08:33.580 --> 01:08:35.799 And if you just wrap it, you're pretty safe. 01:08:36.420 --> 01:08:37.620 Polars is an example, right? 01:08:37.799 --> 01:08:39.819 Polars is a Rust library for Rust programmers. 01:08:40.400 --> 01:08:43.100 And then there's a Python thing on top of it, right? 01:08:43.359 --> 01:08:48.259 So you're getting not just the Python people using it, but the Rust people using it as well. 01:08:48.680 --> 01:08:49.319 What is that? 01:08:49.319 --> 01:08:52.359 A caramel dipped apple equivalent version or something like that? 01:08:52.500 --> 01:08:52.620 Yes. 01:08:53.040 --> 01:08:53.680 I don't know. 01:08:53.900 --> 01:08:55.540 There's caramel everywhere by the time we're done. 01:08:55.600 --> 01:08:59.220 So it's a messy, messy kitchen. 01:09:00.600 --> 01:09:01.440 It was delicious. 01:09:01.680 --> 01:09:02.980 It was a delicious episode, Chris. 01:09:03.259 --> 01:09:03.839 Thank you for being here. 01:09:03.920 --> 01:09:04.160 That's all right. 01:09:04.580 --> 01:09:05.060 Happy to be here. 01:09:05.400 --> 01:09:05.779 Yeah, bye-bye. 01:09:06.759 --> 01:09:08.940 This has been another episode of Talk Python To Me. 01:09:09.319 --> 01:09:10.040 Thank you to our sponsors. 01:09:10.279 --> 01:09:11.540 Be sure to check out what they're offering. 01:09:11.740 --> 01:09:13.100 It really helps support the show. 01:09:14.000 --> 01:09:15.500 This episode is brought to you by Sentry. 01:09:16.319 --> 01:09:19.319 You know Sentry for the error monitoring, but they now have logs too. 01:09:19.680 --> 01:09:26.680 And with Sentry, your logs become way more usable, interleaving into your error reports to enhance debugging and understanding. 01:09:27.299 --> 01:09:30.420 Get started today at talkpython.fm/sentry. 01:09:31.180 --> 01:09:38.980 And it's brought to you by the Talk Python in Production Book, an inside look at 10 years of the real-world DevOps behind the Talk Python sites and apps. 01:09:39.319 --> 01:09:42.040 Check it out at talkpython.fm/DevOps book. 01:09:42.720 --> 01:09:54.860 If you or your team needs to learn Python, we have over 270 hours of beginner and advanced courses on topics ranging from complete beginners to async code, Flask, Django, HTML, and even LLMs. 01:09:55.180 --> 01:09:57.540 Best of all, there's no subscription in sight. 01:09:58.020 --> 01:09:59.680 Browse the catalog at talkpython.fm. 01:10:00.380 --> 01:10:05.060 And if you're not already subscribed to the show on your favorite podcast player, what are you waiting for? 01:10:05.740 --> 01:10:07.480 Just search for Python in your podcast player. 01:10:07.580 --> 01:10:08.460 We should be right at the top. 01:10:08.900 --> 01:10:11.660 If you enjoyed that geeky rap song, you can download the full track. 01:10:11.860 --> 01:10:13.780 The link is actually in your podcast blur show notes. 01:10:14.580 --> 01:10:15.940 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 01:10:16.340 --> 01:10:17.400 Thank you so much for listening. 01:10:17.600 --> 01:10:18.400 I really appreciate it. 01:10:18.860 --> 01:10:19.540 I'll see you next time. 01:10:45.320 --> 01:10:47.120 I think is the norm. 01:11:16.360 --> 01:11:16.380 Продолжение следует...