Bản chép lời đầy đủ của Breaking the Exhausting Cycle of Pure Achievement w/ Trevor Gavin

and thank you for making the time for 00:01:51.135 --> 00:01:52.290 Trevor Gavin: it. 00:01:52.290 --> 00:01:53.010 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:01:53.010 --> 00:01:53.810 Lisa Nichols: I'm excited. 00:01:53.810 --> 00:01:56.130 Lisa Nichols: I'm excited for our listeners to hear your story. 00:01:56.130 --> 00:02:00.050 Lisa Nichols: I'm excited for them to learn more about what you're doing, today. 00:02:00.050 --> 00:02:03.730 Lisa Nichols: But, you know, I'm just gonna start. 00:02:03.730 --> 00:02:05.250 Lisa Nichols: How many of my podcasts... 00:02:05.250 --> 00:02:08.165 Lisa Nichols: I'd like to go back and say, how many of my podcasts does start 00:02:08.165 --> 00:02:09.525 Lisa Nichols: with Jim Bechtold? 00:02:09.525 --> 00:02:12.165 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:02:12.165 --> 00:02:13.925 Lisa Nichols: Jim Bechtold connected us, 00:02:13.925 --> 00:02:14.245 Trevor Gavin: and he 00:02:14.245 --> 00:02:16.165 Lisa Nichols: said, Louisa, 00:02:16.165 --> 00:02:18.085 Lisa Nichols: Trevor's story is amazing. 00:02:18.085 --> 00:02:18.885 Lisa Nichols: It's incredible. 00:02:18.885 --> 00:02:22.580 Lisa Nichols: You have to meet him, and and, and we did. 00:02:22.580 --> 00:02:24.020 Lisa Nichols: And, I'm just... 00:02:24.020 --> 00:02:26.180 Lisa Nichols: I'm really just delighted to have you here. 00:02:26.180 --> 00:02:29.140 Lisa Nichols: But let me just start by saying, what part of your story do you 00:02:29.140 --> 00:02:33.140 Lisa Nichols: think people need to understand now, you know, to really understand 00:02:33.140 --> 00:02:34.255 Lisa Nichols: who you are today? 00:02:34.255 --> 00:02:35.775 Lisa Nichols: What what part of your story? 00:02:35.775 --> 00:02:36.015 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:02:36.015 --> 00:02:40.015 Trevor Gavin: There's, there's a quote that I read a while ago that 00:02:40.415 --> 00:02:44.415 Trevor Gavin: has been so meaningful to me, and the quote, basically goes like this. 00:02:44.975 --> 00:02:48.975 Trevor Gavin: Most people spend the first half of their life building a ladder, trying 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:53.080 Trevor Gavin: to climb up the rungs and whatever it is towards achievement, towards their goal, 00:02:53.160 --> 00:02:56.280 Trevor Gavin: to realize at the beginning of the second half that they've leaned it against 00:02:56.280 --> 00:02:58.280 Trevor Gavin: the wrong wall. 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:02.280 Trevor Gavin: And that story for me, that, 00:03:02.305 --> 00:03:05.585 Trevor Gavin: tells a lot about how I have experienced, 00:03:05.585 --> 00:03:09.585 Trevor Gavin: growth, how I've experienced ambition and drive both 00:03:09.665 --> 00:03:12.785 Trevor Gavin: just in life generally, but in business in particular. 00:03:12.785 --> 00:03:16.785 Trevor Gavin: And then to realize, as I'm transitioning, looking at 00:03:16.870 --> 00:03:20.870 Trevor Gavin: second half of life now and where I, where I 00:03:20.870 --> 00:03:24.870 Trevor Gavin: wanna go and in my life and growth and maturity that, a lot 00:03:24.950 --> 00:03:28.455 Trevor Gavin: of the first half of life was spent building 00:03:28.455 --> 00:03:32.455 Trevor Gavin: out of, mixed motives to be sure, but, was largely 00:03:32.615 --> 00:03:36.615 Trevor Gavin: driven by, a lot of fear and some shame. 00:03:37.415 --> 00:03:41.415 Trevor Gavin: And that comes through my past through, a lot of my story. 00:03:41.895 --> 00:03:45.680 Trevor Gavin: But being unaware of it for a long time and what was motivating me 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:49.680 Trevor Gavin: and the complexity of it is I kept getting rewarded and affirmed 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:53.440 Trevor Gavin: for the things that I was doing outwardly, 00:03:53.440 --> 00:03:57.440 Trevor Gavin: but being completely disconnected to what was going on inside of me 00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:01.415 Trevor Gavin: as what was motivating me to do these things. 00:04:01.415 --> 00:04:02.215 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:04:02.215 --> 00:04:06.215 Lisa Nichols: Well, I tell you, that part resonated with me because, you know, 00:04:06.375 --> 00:04:08.615 Lisa Nichols: you said that you let out of achievement. 00:04:08.615 --> 00:04:09.575 Trevor Gavin: Yep. 00:04:09.575 --> 00:04:13.575 Lisa Nichols: And work was where you went to actually prove yourself. 00:04:13.990 --> 00:04:17.990 Lisa Nichols: And, Trevor, I don't think that is unlike 00:04:17.990 --> 00:04:19.910 Lisa Nichols: a lot of people, myself included. 00:04:19.910 --> 00:04:23.350 Lisa Nichols: I've been there before too, you know? 00:04:23.350 --> 00:04:25.590 Lisa Nichols: But when did you first realize... 00:04:25.590 --> 00:04:29.590 Lisa Nichols: What was your turning point where you realized that you had tied your achievement, 00:04:30.985 --> 00:04:34.425 Lisa Nichols: you know, to your value rather than your identity? 00:04:34.425 --> 00:04:34.665 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:04:34.665 --> 00:04:35.385 Trevor Gavin: There's actually... 00:04:35.385 --> 00:04:38.905 Trevor Gavin: So there's two stories that come to mind on that. 00:04:38.905 --> 00:04:40.370 Trevor Gavin: The first one is my... 00:04:40.370 --> 00:04:43.490 Trevor Gavin: The way I grew up, I had great parents, but my mom got sick 00:04:43.490 --> 00:04:47.490 Trevor Gavin: really young with a disease called Addison's disease and it functionally 00:04:48.130 --> 00:04:49.330 Trevor Gavin: changed our entire life. 00:04:49.330 --> 00:04:53.330 Trevor Gavin: You know, we went from having family dinners and schedule things to 00:04:53.490 --> 00:04:57.490 Trevor Gavin: my dad working to try to be the sole. 00:05:00.265 --> 00:05:04.265 Trevor Gavin: And so the culture that got created in our household was unspoken, but as 00:05:04.265 --> 00:05:07.225 Trevor Gavin: we need to survive, and it's all hands on deck. 00:05:07.225 --> 00:05:11.110 Trevor Gavin: And so what came from that, for me was a strong level and a 00:05:11.110 --> 00:05:13.910 Trevor Gavin: need for protection and independence. 00:05:13.910

--> 00:05:16.790 Trevor Gavin: And so I just kinda had to figure out how to do things on 00:05:16.790 --> 00:05:19.510 Trevor Gavin: my own because my mom needed to be taken care of. 00:05:19.510 --> 00:05:20.630 Trevor Gavin: My dad needed to provide. 00:05:20.630 --> 00:05:22.835 Trevor Gavin: I was only seven years old at the time. 00:05:22.835 --> 00:05:25.315 Trevor Gavin: And so that independence, 00:05:25.315 --> 00:05:29.315 Trevor Gavin: actually became a source of motivation and achievement because 00:05:29.475 --> 00:05:32.195 Trevor Gavin: I learned at an early age to kind of figure out things on my 00:05:32.195 --> 00:05:35.540 Trevor Gavin: own that I shouldn't have at that time thinking back on it. 00:05:35.540 --> 00:05:37.220 Trevor Gavin: And so that was that was already in me. 00:05:37.220 --> 00:05:41.220 Trevor Gavin: And I think God has hardwired me towards, 00:05:41.300 --> 00:05:43.460 Trevor Gavin: being decisive and action and things like that. 00:05:43.460 --> 00:05:46.340 Trevor Gavin: But there's a a shadow side to all of those things even in the 00:05:46.340 --> 00:05:48.125 Trevor Gavin: way that God wires us. 00:05:48.125 --> 00:05:50.685 Trevor Gavin: And so, so that was a big part of my story. 00:05:50.685 --> 00:05:54.685 Trevor Gavin: And then when I was, when I was nineteen, my dad died unexpectedly. 00:05:54.765 --> 00:05:57.565 Trevor Gavin: And my dad and I were, best friends. 00:05:57.565 --> 00:05:59.725 Trevor Gavin: And despite, 00:05:59.725 --> 00:06:02.845 Trevor Gavin: despite all of the challenges that were going on at home, I never, I 00:06:02.845 --> 00:06:06.845 Trevor Gavin: never remember him missing a football game, a football practice, or 00:06:06.860 --> 00:06:07.980 Trevor Gavin: anything like that. 00:06:07.980 --> 00:06:11.980 Trevor Gavin: And so my dad died unexpectedly at at nineteen. 00:06:12.220 --> 00:06:16.220 Trevor Gavin: And because of my mom's illness, it again kinda threw 00:06:16.345 --> 00:06:20.345 Trevor Gavin: in another level of need for independence and provision. 00:06:20.505 --> 00:06:24.505 Trevor Gavin: And so from that point on, I then kicked into overdrive 00:06:24.825 --> 00:06:25.945 Trevor Gavin: towards achievement. 00:06:25.945 --> 00:06:29.480 Trevor Gavin: And at the time, you know, I didn't go to college. 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:31.400 Trevor Gavin: I actually had dropped out of junior college. 00:06:31.400 --> 00:06:33.320 Trevor Gavin: I was in pastoral ministry. 00:06:33.320 --> 00:06:37.000 Trevor Gavin: I felt a call to go plant a church with my wife, in a 00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:37.720 Trevor Gavin: different state. 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:39.800 Trevor Gavin: And so we got married at twenty one. 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:41.400 Trevor Gavin: We had our first daughter at twenty three. 00:06:41.400 --> 00:06:43.995 Trevor Gavin: We went out and planted our first church at twenty three. 00:06:43.995 --> 00:06:47.275 Trevor Gavin: And then we also were part of co founding a fintech company at twenty 00:06:47.275 --> 00:06:48.315 Trevor Gavin: three. 00:06:48.315 --> 00:06:52.315 Trevor Gavin: And so for me, at that age, I had nothing but energy 00:06:53.515 --> 00:06:54.635 Trevor Gavin: and drive. 00:06:54.635 --> 00:06:57.290 Trevor Gavin: And so I used that, and I... 00:06:57.290 --> 00:06:58.570 Trevor Gavin: And it was for all good things. 00:06:58.570 --> 00:07:00.410 Trevor Gavin: I was trying to provide for my family. 00:07:00.410 --> 00:07:03.930 Trevor Gavin: I was trying to fulfill, this call that was on my life. 00:07:03.930 --> 00:07:07.930 Trevor Gavin: And then at twenty six, I had two different things happen that, that 00:07:08.090 --> 00:07:09.770 Trevor Gavin: changed everything for me. 00:07:09.770 --> 00:07:11.855 Trevor Gavin: Number one was a burnout. 00:07:11.855 --> 00:07:15.855 Trevor Gavin: I just did not have the emotional capacity, the chronological maturity, 00:07:16.175 --> 00:07:19.535 Trevor Gavin: the boundaries, the limits in place to slow down. 00:07:19.535 --> 00:07:21.775 Trevor Gavin: And so my body did that for me. 00:07:21.775 --> 00:07:23.135 Trevor Gavin: I really like the flying either. 00:07:23.135 --> 00:07:27.135 Trevor Gavin: You get to choose a Sabbath or a Sabbath will be chosen for you. 00:07:27.250 --> 00:07:29.490 Trevor Gavin: And, the first option is much better. 00:07:29.490 --> 00:07:33.250 Trevor Gavin: But the second option, the second option happened to me. 00:07:33.250 --> 00:07:37.250 Trevor Gavin: And so when that burnout happened, I was 00:07:37.410 --> 00:07:41.410 Trevor Gavin: struck with the reality that I could not produce at the way that 00:07:41.485 --> 00:07:44.525 Trevor Gavin: I wanted to, and my body would not allow me to do it. 00:07:44.525 --> 00:07:47.565 Trevor Gavin: And so that was the one of the first times of looking back and 00:07:47.565 --> 00:07:50.445 Trevor Gavin: going, well, if I can't do that, what am I worth then? 00:07:50.445 --> 00:07:54.445 Trevor Gavin: And I had established an identity without it being conscious at all, 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:58.920 Trevor Gavin: that my value and my worth from God was based on 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:00.760 Trevor Gavin: my production for, for him. 00:08:00.760 --> 00:08:04.600 Trevor Gavin: And so it felt a bit employee employer relationship. 00:08:04.600 --> 00:08:08.425 Trevor Gavin: And then, on the work side, if I couldn't produce the same way that 00:08:08.425 --> 00:08:12.425 Trevor Gavin: I had been, then what value am I worth to my wife, to, 00:08:13.225 --> 00:08:15.945 Trevor Gavin: my friends, to anybody else? 00:08:15.945 --> 00:08:19.945 Trevor Gavin: And that had all been running under the surface that I was completely unaware 00:08:19.945 --> 00:08:20.830 Trevor Gavin: of. 00:08:20.830 --> 00:08:23.870 Trevor Gavin: And so I had to, that that has been a long journey and continues 00:08:23.870 --> 00:08:27.870 Trevor Gavin: to be a long journey because I

tend to look at life a bit 00:08:27.950 --> 00:08:31.950 Trevor Gavin: black and white, and it's either a win or a loss or success 00:08:31.950 --> 00:08:32.670 Trevor Gavin: or failure. 00:08:32.670 --> 00:08:36.485 Trevor Gavin: And so there's not much curiosity there for me at times. 00:08:36.485 --> 00:08:40.485 Trevor Gavin: And so that led me to, believe that I'm a failure, which led 00:08:40.485 --> 00:08:41.765 Trevor Gavin: to deep shame. 00:08:41.765 --> 00:08:44.645 Trevor Gavin: And the only tools in the toolbox that I had at the time to 00:08:44.645 --> 00:08:48.165 Trevor Gavin: know how to deal with shame was to try and outwork it. 00:08:48.165 --> 00:08:51.750 Trevor Gavin: And so therefore, I tried to put in more to to be able to 00:08:51.750 --> 00:08:55.750 Trevor Gavin: overcompensate for the shame that I couldn't even identify at the time because it 00:08:55.750 --> 00:08:59.750 Trevor Gavin: was just running under the surface unquestioned. 00:08:59.910 --> 00:09:02.150 Trevor Gavin: And so that was a crisis for me. 00:09:02.150 --> 00:09:06.150 Trevor Gavin: And then the second one was unrelated to, 00:09:06.855 --> 00:09:07.975 Trevor Gavin: business or anything. 00:09:07.975 --> 00:09:11.975 Trevor Gavin: But we had, when we had our first daughter who was also named Allie. 00:09:12.455 --> 00:09:15.335 Trevor Gavin: When she came out, it was, you know, classic. 00:09:15.335 --> 00:09:17.575 Trevor Gavin: I think every every parent can relate to it. 00:09:17.575 --> 00:09:20.090 Trevor Gavin: I just I fell in love with her the second I saw her. 00:09:20.090 --> 00:09:21.050 Trevor Gavin: It's my daughter. 00:09:21.050 --> 00:09:22.170 Trevor Gavin: She's my little girl. 00:09:22.170 --> 00:09:25.290 Trevor Gavin: We were attached and bonded, 00:09:25.290 --> 00:09:26.170 Trevor Gavin: immediately. 00:09:26.170 --> 00:09:30.170 Trevor Gavin: And then, we got pregnant with, our son, about 00:09:30.330 --> 00:09:31.690 Trevor Gavin: three years later. 00:09:31.690 --> 00:09:34.125 Trevor Gavin: And when he was born, I felt I... 00:09:34.125 --> 00:09:36.045 Trevor Gavin: That that same thing would be true. 00:09:36.045 --> 00:09:37.485 Trevor Gavin: And now I have a boy. 00:09:37.485 --> 00:09:39.485 Trevor Gavin: I have a sports background. 00:09:39.485 --> 00:09:41.325 Trevor Gavin: We're gonna be able to play catch together. 00:09:41.325 --> 00:09:42.925 Trevor Gavin: All all of these things. 00:09:42.925 --> 00:09:46.925 Trevor Gavin: And when he was born, I did not have that attachment with him. 00:09:47.490 --> 00:09:50.210 Trevor Gavin: And it was very disorienting for me. 00:09:50.210 --> 00:09:51.570 Trevor Gavin: And so I kind of thought through it. 00:09:51.570 --> 00:09:54.130 Trevor Gavin: I go, well, maybe it's, it's the second child. 00:09:54.130 --> 00:09:56.770 Trevor Gavin: It's different than having a first child. 00:09:56.770 --> 00:10:00.165 Trevor Gavin: Maybe, you know, the attachment, will come. 00:10:00.165 --> 00:10:04.165 Trevor Gavin: And for probably about two months, I felt a disconnect between me 00:10:04.245 --> 00:10:05.685 Trevor Gavin: and my son. 00:10:05.685 --> 00:10:09.445 Trevor Gavin: And that showed up, and I tended to wanna hold Allie and take care 00:10:09.445 --> 00:10:13.445 Trevor Gavin: of her more and not so much with, with my son, Bear. 00:10:13.970 --> 00:10:17.970 Trevor Gavin: And about three months into it, I was holding him one day, and 00:10:18.290 --> 00:10:22.290 Trevor Gavin: I had, an epiphany, in the moment. 00:10:22.370 --> 00:10:26.370 Trevor Gavin: And what happened in that moment is I felt, 00:10:26.450 --> 00:10:30.450 Trevor Gavin: this deep sense of grief, which was, I think I was 00:10:30.665 --> 00:10:34.665 Trevor Gavin: trying to protect my son from me dying early 00:10:34.985 --> 00:10:38.985 Trevor Gavin: and having to go through what I went through with my dad. 00:10:39.545 --> 00:10:40.185 Trevor Gavin: Mhmm. 00:10:40.185 --> 00:10:42.760 Trevor Gavin: And so in a 00:10:42.760 --> 00:10:45.160 Trevor Gavin: very subconscious way, I... 00:10:45.160 --> 00:10:49.160 Trevor Gavin: My body was saying, if I create distance from my son, 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:53.720 Trevor Gavin: then if I die young the same way that my dad did, 00:10:53.945 --> 00:10:57.945 Trevor Gavin: then he won't have to feel the things that I still feel today, 00:10:58.025 --> 00:11:00.105 Trevor Gavin: that I still go through. 00:11:00.105 --> 00:11:04.105 Trevor Gavin: And I had this really profound moment between me, my son, and God, 00:11:05.385 --> 00:11:09.385 Trevor Gavin: which was either I lean into this because I 00:11:09.400 --> 00:11:11.960 Trevor Gavin: don't I don't know how many days I get. 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:15.720 Trevor Gavin: And I love him with everything that I have, the way my dad did 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:16.680 Trevor Gavin: for me. 00:11:16.680 --> 00:11:19.720 Trevor Gavin: And whatever is going to be is whatever it's going to be, I don't 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:21.205 Trevor Gavin: get to control that. 00:11:21.205 --> 00:11:25.045 Trevor Gavin: Or I protect myself in a way that I think that I'm trying to 00:11:25.045 --> 00:11:25.925 Trevor Gavin: protect him. 00:11:25.925 --> 00:11:29.925 Trevor Gavin: And then I ultimately know I will likely sabotage our relationship. 00:11:31.125 --> 00:11:35.125 Trevor Gavin: And so that was, as I was unpacking that there was a lot 00:11:35.125 --> 00:11:36.480 Trevor Gavin: of control. 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:37.920 Trevor Gavin: There was fear. 00:11:37.920 --> 00:11:38.800 Trevor Gavin: I didn't want him... 00:11:38.800 --> 00:11:42.080 Trevor Gavin: I don't want him to have to go through what I went through. 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:45.280 Trevor Gavin: But I had a moment to make a decision there, and I've had to 00:11:45.280 --> 00:11:46.560 Trevor Gavin: continue to make that decision. 00:11:46.560 --> 00:11:49.760 Trevor Gavin: And now my son and

I have an incredible relationship. 00:11:49.760 --> 00:11:52.965 Trevor Gavin: And, and I love him, you know, with all of my heart. 00:11:52.965 --> 00:11:56.965 Trevor Gavin: But that, that moment spoke to me about, well, this is actually 00:11:57.285 --> 00:11:58.805 Trevor Gavin: how I live. 00:11:58.805 --> 00:12:02.805 Trevor Gavin: I'm trying to protect myself because I'm dealing with, 00:12:03.285 --> 00:12:06.090 Trevor Gavin: fear of death, of control, of grief 00:12:06.090 --> 00:12:06.890 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:12:06.890 --> 00:12:08.970 Trevor Gavin: Anxiety, fear of failure. 00:12:08.970 --> 00:12:12.250 Trevor Gavin: And so now I have these two things that are happening when I was 00:12:12.250 --> 00:12:14.170 Trevor Gavin: twenty six, 00:12:14.170 --> 00:12:18.170 Trevor Gavin: where I'm trying to chase a ghost and making my father proud, 00:12:18.170 --> 00:12:19.130 Trevor Gavin: who I don't have. 00:12:19.130 --> 00:12:22.525 Trevor Gavin: I I don't have him to look to wisdom how to navigate this situation. 00:12:22.525 --> 00:12:26.125 Trevor Gavin: We also ended up, exiting the company when I was twenty seven with a 00:12:26.125 --> 00:12:30.125 Trevor Gavin: successful acquisition, and that, you know, has its own, challenges 00:12:30.525 --> 00:12:32.690 Trevor Gavin: and great things around it. 00:12:32.690 --> 00:12:36.610 Trevor Gavin: But I have this opportunity, where I'm trying to chase this ghost, and that's 00:12:36.610 --> 00:12:40.450 Trevor Gavin: leading me leading me to greater achievement, which is ultimately not fulfilling what I 00:12:40.450 --> 00:12:43.410 Trevor Gavin: wanted to fill, which is leading me to greater shame. 00:12:43.410 --> 00:12:47.410 Trevor Gavin: And then I have this protection thing where I have, this fear and anxiety 00:12:48.185 --> 00:12:52.185 Trevor Gavin: that is also leading to shame about how I'm showing up with my family. 00:12:52.185 --> 00:12:55.945 Trevor Gavin: And all of those things kind of hit right around the same time and, 00:12:55.945 --> 00:12:59.945 Trevor Gavin: and forced in a really loving way for me to rethink 00:13:00.630 --> 00:13:03.590 Trevor Gavin: the way I'm showing up and the tools that I have in my tool 00:13:03.590 --> 00:13:06.870 Trevor Gavin: belt are not the tools that are going to help me get to where 00:13:06.870 --> 00:13:08.710 Trevor Gavin: I ultimately want to go. 00:13:08.710 --> 00:13:11.670 Trevor Gavin: And then I gotta figure out what do I do with that. 00:13:11.670 --> 00:13:13.365 Lisa Nichols: Mhmm. 00:13:13.365 --> 00:13:14.885 Lisa Nichols: Gosh. 00:13:14.885 --> 00:13:18.885 Lisa Nichols: Trevor, thank you so much for your vulnerability with all of that. 00:13:20.165 --> 00:13:20.965 Lisa Nichols: I was just... 00:13:20.965 --> 00:13:24.965 Lisa Nichols: I spoke at a group on Friday, and the whole 00:13:25.880 --> 00:13:29.880 Lisa Nichols: the whole theme of this conference was AI, the human 00:13:30.920 --> 00:13:33.800 Lisa Nichols: humanity in the age of the era of AI. 00:13:33.800 --> 00:13:34.840 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:38.840 Lisa Nichols: And that is one thing nobody else 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:40.035 Lisa Nichols: can do for us. 00:13:40.035 --> 00:13:42.755 Lisa Nichols: It's something a machine cannot do is the inner work. 00:13:42.755 --> 00:13:46.755 Lisa Nichols: I mean, you've done a lot of inner work. 00:13:46.835 --> 00:13:50.835 Lisa Nichols: You've done a lot of inner work, and I think, 00:13:51.555 --> 00:13:54.275 Lisa Nichols: you know, so many people just go through life, and they don't wanna go 00:13:54.275 --> 00:13:56.420 Lisa Nichols: there because it's too hard. 00:13:56.420 --> 00:13:57.220 Lisa Nichols: It's hard. 00:13:57.220 --> 00:13:57.860 Trevor Gavin: It is. 00:13:57.860 --> 00:13:59.140 Lisa Nichols: Inner work is hard work. 00:13:59.140 --> 00:13:59.700 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:13:59.700 --> 00:14:00.180 Trevor Gavin: Right? 00:14:00.180 --> 00:14:00.500 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:14:00.500 --> 00:14:02.340 Trevor Gavin: The disorientation 00:14:02.340 --> 00:14:02.980 Trevor Gavin: of it all. 00:14:02.980 --> 00:14:03.220 Trevor Gavin: Mhmm. 00:14:03.220 --> 00:14:07.220 Trevor Gavin: And especially when I'm trying to be productive, I'm trying to produce, I'm trying 00:14:07.380 --> 00:14:08.725 Trevor Gavin: to grow. 00:14:08.725 --> 00:14:09.205 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:14:09.205 --> 00:14:13.205 Trevor Gavin: You know, that all felt like wasted time, because I 00:14:13.205 --> 00:14:15.925 Trevor Gavin: need to get back to accomplishing these things. 00:14:15.925 --> 00:14:16.805 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:14:16.805 --> 00:14:20.805 Trevor Gavin: And and yet the rub between it is, that I wasn't becoming 00:14:21.205 --> 00:14:22.580 Trevor Gavin: the type of person. 00:14:22.580 --> 00:14:26.100 Trevor Gavin: You know, one of one of my favorite quotes is, the best thing that 00:14:26.100 --> 00:14:26.580 Trevor Gavin: God... 00:14:26.580 --> 00:14:30.420 Trevor Gavin: The best thing that the world gets out of you is a transformed self. 00:14:30.420 --> 00:14:33.940 Trevor Gavin: And so I started to think through, well, who who is the type of 00:14:33.940 --> 00:14:35.380 Trevor Gavin: person I'm becoming? 00:14:35.380 --> 00:14:39.275 Trevor Gavin: And if I fast forward five, ten, fifteen, twenty years, do I like that 00:14:39.275 --> 00:14:39.835 Trevor Gavin: direction? 00:14:39.835 --> 00:14:41.755 Trevor Gavin: Is that who I want to become? 00:14:41.755 --> 00:14:45.755 Trevor Gavin: And my fear was at the time, and this is part of my past. 00:14:45.755 --> 00:14:49.355 Trevor Gavin: I have a lot of divorce in my family through generations. 00:14:49.355 --> 00:14:53.355 Trevor Gavin: I have, alcoholics and all these different unfortunate 00:14:53.570 --> 00:14:56.530 Trevor Gavin: things in my family line that have, 00:14:56.530 --> 00:14:59.410 Trevor Gavin: really terrible decisions that have hurt generations.

00:14:59.410 --> 00:15:03.410 Trevor Gavin: And so when I looked down the future a bit, what I saw was 00:15:03.650 --> 00:15:07.085 Trevor Gavin: someone who outwardly was very successful, 00:15:07.085 --> 00:15:11.085 Trevor Gavin: had a really good LinkedIn profile, drove a good car, 00:15:11.165 --> 00:15:15.005 Trevor Gavin: but both individually and as a family, 00:15:15.005 --> 00:15:17.165 Trevor Gavin: were completely deteriorating. 00:15:17.165 --> 00:15:19.325 Trevor Gavin: And, were an absolute mess. 00:15:19.325 --> 00:15:22.350 Trevor Gavin: And those, that didn't seem like a win anymore in the same way that 00:15:22.350 --> 00:15:23.630 Trevor Gavin: it did prior. 00:15:23.630 --> 00:15:26.030 Trevor Gavin: It wasn't a trade off that I wanted to make anymore. 00:15:26.030 --> 00:15:28.350 Trevor Gavin: But I didn't really have any tools to know how to... 00:15:28.350 --> 00:15:28.670 Trevor Gavin: Okay. 00:15:28.670 --> 00:15:30.670 Trevor Gavin: So now what do I do? 00:15:30.670 --> 00:15:32.430 Lisa Nichols: I mean So what did you do? 00:15:32.430 --> 00:15:36.365 Lisa Nichols: I mean, the tools were, you know, work harder. 00:15:36.365 --> 00:15:37.405 Lisa Nichols: Just work harder. 00:15:37.405 --> 00:15:38.125 Lisa Nichols: Work harder. 00:15:38.125 --> 00:15:38.445 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:15:38.445 --> 00:15:40.125 Lisa Nichols: Right? 00:15:40.125 --> 00:15:43.725 Lisa Nichols: But what what tools did you start to put in your tool belt so 00:15:43.725 --> 00:15:45.965 Lisa Nichols: that you could 00:15:45.965 --> 00:15:48.590 Lisa Nichols: be a different person and show up differently? 00:15:48.590 --> 00:15:48.910 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:15:48.910 --> 00:15:50.990 Trevor Gavin: And that was the, I wanted... 00:15:50.990 --> 00:15:53.710 Trevor Gavin: There was a line given to me by a mentor, which was I wanted 00:15:53.710 --> 00:15:57.710 Trevor Gavin: to become the type of person for whom it was more natural 00:15:58.270 --> 00:16:02.270 Trevor Gavin: to do the things that Jesus didn't, or I wanted to become the type 00:16:02.355 --> 00:16:06.355 Trevor Gavin: of person for whom it was more natural to have an identity that wasn't 00:16:06.755 --> 00:16:10.755 Trevor Gavin: rooted in just my achievement and things like that. 00:16:12.035 --> 00:16:16.035 Trevor Gavin: So, the inner work that was part of my journey was a 00:16:16.110 --> 00:16:16.350 Trevor Gavin: lot... 00:16:16.350 --> 00:16:19.710 Trevor Gavin: Was therapy, was spiritual direction, 00:16:19.710 --> 00:16:23.710 Trevor Gavin: was going back, to look at the grief and the trauma that had 00:16:23.790 --> 00:16:26.765 Trevor Gavin: happened and to honestly name that and confront that. 00:16:26.765 --> 00:16:29.165 Trevor Gavin: I think the big part of it was I was just trying to outrun 00:16:29.165 --> 00:16:30.845 Trevor Gavin: it all with achievement. 00:16:30.845 --> 00:16:34.845 Trevor Gavin: And, and, you know, failure is a great teacher in that too. 00:16:35.005 --> 00:16:39.005 Trevor Gavin: I had a couple I had a couple big failures in in business, 00:16:39.660 --> 00:16:39.900 Trevor Gavin: e... 00:16:39.900 --> 00:16:42.700 Trevor Gavin: Even in our church that didn't go the way that I thought they would 00:16:42.700 --> 00:16:43.020 Trevor Gavin: go. 00:16:43.020 --> 00:16:43.820 Trevor Gavin: I just... 00:16:43.820 --> 00:16:45.740 Trevor Gavin: I thought everything would be up into the right. 00:16:45.740 --> 00:16:49.260 Trevor Gavin: And if I could work harder and read more and be smarter, that I 00:16:49.260 --> 00:16:51.740 Trevor Gavin: would somehow avoid all of those things. 00:16:51.740 --> 00:16:53.905 Trevor Gavin: So failure is a great teacher. 00:16:53.905 --> 00:16:57.745 Trevor Gavin: And one of the things that I learned from failure was, 00:16:57.745 --> 00:17:01.745 Trevor Gavin: when everything comes true that I didn't want to come true, 00:17:02.305 --> 00:17:06.305 Trevor Gavin: I still had friends and my family stick by me. 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.920 Trevor Gavin: And so I had to, I had to update the story that I was 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:13.920 Trevor Gavin: telling, which the story that I was telling was that everybody dies 00:17:14.080 --> 00:17:16.480 Trevor Gavin: and everybody will eventually leave. 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:20.480 Trevor Gavin: So therefore don't get too close and don't be too vulnerable 00:17:20.555 --> 00:17:22.155 Trevor Gavin: out out of protection. 00:17:22.155 --> 00:17:25.355 Trevor Gavin: And so I had to update the story in my mind because after some 00:17:25.355 --> 00:17:29.035 Trevor Gavin: of these failures, after burnout, people didn't leave me. 00:17:29.035 --> 00:17:32.315 Trevor Gavin: So then I was really confused because Yeah. 00:17:32.315 --> 00:17:33.275 Trevor Gavin: I didn't think that... 00:17:33.275 --> 00:17:37.210 Trevor Gavin: And I still struggle with this today, which is I I do not think 00:17:37.210 --> 00:17:39.290 Trevor Gavin: that I'm lovable, 00:17:39.290 --> 00:17:40.810 Trevor Gavin: based on who I am. 00:17:40.810 --> 00:17:43.850 Trevor Gavin: Rather, it has to be based on what do I I achieve and produce 00:17:43.850 --> 00:17:45.210 Trevor Gavin: for other people. 00:17:45.210 --> 00:17:48.170 Trevor Gavin: And so I had to update the story that, okay, if if these people 00:17:48.170 --> 00:17:51.455 Trevor Gavin: didn't leave me, what does that mean? 00:17:51.455 --> 00:17:55.455 Trevor Gavin: And then I'm struck with the reality that I have to either believe that 00:17:55.615 --> 00:17:59.615 Trevor Gavin: they're hoping that I get back on the right track and that I'll start 00:17:59.615 --> 00:18:02.815 Trevor Gavin: winning again or that they actually care about me for me. 00:18:02.815 --> 00:18:04.230 Lisa Nichols: Really love you. 00:18:04.230 --> 00:18:04.430 Lisa Nichols: For us. 00:18:04.310 --> 00:18:04.510 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:18:04.470 --> 00:18:04.950 Lisa Nichols: And for you.

00:18:04.950 --> 00:18:08.390 Trevor Gavin: And if that's true, maybe that's true about god as well. 00:18:08.390 --> 00:18:12.150 Trevor Gavin: And if those things are true, what would that do to the way that 00:18:12.150 --> 00:18:15.670 Trevor Gavin: I live and show up again if it's actually not as true as I 00:18:15.670 --> 00:18:19.670 Trevor Gavin: believed it was that achievement and performance were my primary identities 00:18:20.075 --> 00:18:24.075 Trevor Gavin: and, primarily, why people and god, would love me. 00:18:25.275 --> 00:18:25.915 Lisa Nichols: Aw. 00:18:25.915 --> 00:18:27.595 Lisa Nichols: It's so beautiful. 00:18:27.595 --> 00:18:31.275 Lisa Nichols: You know, I wasn't gonna go here, but I'm gonna go here now because 00:18:31.275 --> 00:18:33.320 Lisa Nichols: we're kind of talking about it. 00:18:33.320 --> 00:18:37.080 Lisa Nichols: But I just, you know, Ally, my Ally has the something extra. 00:18:37.080 --> 00:18:37.400 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:37.640 Trevor Gavin: Right? 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:37.880 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:39.720 Lisa Nichols: Exaggerate chromosome. 00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:43.720 Lisa Nichols: And yesterday, I wrote something that she, 00:18:44.120 --> 00:18:46.360 Lisa Nichols: just a couple things that have happened that she just... 00:18:46.360 --> 00:18:50.360 Lisa Nichols: It really just I started thinking about how she shows up. 00:18:50.845 --> 00:18:54.845 Lisa Nichols: And one of the things that she does, Trevor, that I absolutely 00:18:55.005 --> 00:18:56.525 Lisa Nichols: love... 00:18:56.525 --> 00:18:57.885 Lisa Nichols: And this is pure. 00:18:57.885 --> 00:19:01.140 Lisa Nichols: I mean, because she doesn't know any other way, really. 00:19:01.140 --> 00:19:05.140 Lisa Nichols: But I said, you know, sometimes she'll meet somebody, and she'll just, like, 00:19:05.380 --> 00:19:09.380 Lisa Nichols: stop and say, I really love your heart. 00:19:09.620 --> 00:19:10.740 Lisa Nichols: And I'm like, you know what? 00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:12.980 Lisa Nichols: She's not saying, hey, Trevor. 00:19:12.980 --> 00:19:13.460 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:19:13.460 --> 00:19:15.555 Lisa Nichols: I love that you accomplished this. 00:19:15.555 --> 00:19:16.275 Lisa Nichols: Hey, Trevor. 00:19:16.275 --> 00:19:18.435 Lisa Nichols: I love that you founded this tech company. 00:19:18.435 --> 00:19:18.755 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:19:18.755 --> 00:19:20.515 Lisa Nichols: I love how you look. 00:19:20.515 --> 00:19:20.835 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:19:20.835 --> 00:19:21.235 Lisa Nichols: You know? 00:19:21.235 --> 00:19:21.635 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:19:21.635 --> 00:19:22.755 Lisa Nichols: None of that. 00:19:22.755 --> 00:19:23.155 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:19:23.155 --> 00:19:25.235 Lisa Nichols: She goes, I love your heart. 00:19:25.235 --> 00:19:26.355 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:19:26.355 --> 00:19:30.355 Lisa Nichols: And, boy, I mean, Trevor, it just, like, really strikes 00:19:30.410 --> 00:19:33.610 Lisa Nichols: me because I'm like, oh my goodness. 00:19:33.610 --> 00:19:37.610 Lisa Nichols: And the beautiful thing about that, 00:19:38.090 --> 00:19:41.130 Lisa Nichols: that is exactly the way our heavenly father sees us. 00:19:41.130 --> 00:19:42.665 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:19:42.665 --> 00:19:43.305 Lisa Nichols: You know? 00:19:43.305 --> 00:19:44.185 Lisa Nichols: I mean Yes. 00:19:44.185 --> 00:19:46.665 Lisa Nichols: He said to Jesus, 00:19:46.665 --> 00:19:50.665 Lisa Nichols: this is my son in whom I am loving him well pleased before 00:19:50.825 --> 00:19:52.025 Lisa Nichols: Jesus did anything. 00:19:52.025 --> 00:19:56.025 Trevor Gavin: Any any healings, any teaching, any miracles, 00:19:56.070 --> 00:19:57.750 Trevor Gavin: anything. 00:19:57.750 --> 00:19:58.150 Lisa Nichols: Right. 00:19:58.150 --> 00:19:58.550 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:19:58.550 --> 00:20:00.950 Lisa Nichols: And that is precisely... 00:20:00.950 --> 00:20:02.550 Lisa Nichols: And god looks at our heart. 00:20:02.550 --> 00:20:04.790 Lisa Nichols: And so it just reminded me of that. 00:20:04.790 --> 00:20:05.910 Trevor Gavin: And beautiful. 00:20:05.910 --> 00:20:06.310 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:20:06.310 --> 00:20:07.190 Lisa Nichols: It's beautiful. 00:20:07.190 --> 00:20:08.950 Lisa Nichols: And nobody taught Ally that. 00:20:08.950 --> 00:20:11.865 Lisa Nichols: I mean, I've never even heard somebody else say that. 00:20:11.865 --> 00:20:12.265 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:20:12.265 --> 00:20:13.225 Lisa Nichols: But she'll say that. 00:20:13.225 --> 00:20:17.145 Lisa Nichols: She'll meet somebody, and she really does have that ability to see right to 00:20:17.145 --> 00:20:17.545 Lisa Nichols: the heart. 00:20:17.545 --> 00:20:18.265 Lisa Nichols: So Yeah. 00:20:18.265 --> 00:20:20.985 Lisa Nichols: Anyway, just so beautiful. 00:20:20.985 --> 00:20:23.305 Lisa Nichols: Thank you so much for sharing all that. 00:20:23.305 --> 00:20:27.305 Lisa Nichols: And I just know that there are gonna be listeners out there that are 00:20:27.430 --> 00:20:28.550 Lisa Nichols: like, yeah. 00:20:28.550 --> 00:20:30.550 Lisa Nichols: I probably need to do some deep work. 00:20:30.550 --> 00:20:31.430 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:20:31.430 --> 00:20:35.430 Lisa Nichols: I probably need to do some inner healing. 00:20:35.590 --> 00:20:35.990 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:20:35.990 --> 00:20:36.390 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:20:36.390 --> 00:20:37.910 Trevor Gavin: And it's... 00:20:37.910 --> 00:20:41.910 Trevor Gavin: You know, now being, you know, I'm getting close to forty. 00:20:42.145 --> 00:20:46.145 Trevor Gavin: I'm thinking through a lot about productivity and a lot about leadership. 00:20:46.625 --> 00:20:48.465 Trevor Gavin: And, 00:20:48.465 --> 00:20:52.465 Trevor Gavin: and I think I certainly believe the lie that if I 00:20:52.770 --> 00:20:56.770 Trevor Gavin: if I just get smarter about how I work, then I will overcome 00:20:57.330 --> 00:20:59.410 Trevor Gavin: the

internal obstacles. 00:20:59.410 --> 00:21:03.410 Trevor Gavin: And I do believe that God hardwired us, designed us to create, 00:21:03.730 --> 00:21:07.730 Trevor Gavin: to cultivate, to have dominion, and and and he gives gifts. 00:21:08.425 --> 00:21:12.425 Trevor Gavin: And so it's not to try to divorce these things or pit 00:21:12.585 --> 00:21:16.585 Trevor Gavin: them against each other, but how do we become, 00:21:16.745 --> 00:21:19.770 Trevor Gavin: grow in holistic, humanity? 00:21:19.770 --> 00:21:23.370 Trevor Gavin: And so that I'm showing up at my work. 00:21:23.370 --> 00:21:27.370 Trevor Gavin: I'm showing up at home, the way that God has designed me rather 00:21:27.450 --> 00:21:29.130 Trevor Gavin: than, you know, putting on a mask. 00:21:29.130 --> 00:21:33.015 Trevor Gavin: And that was part of what I what I felt as I look back. 00:21:33.015 --> 00:21:35.975 Trevor Gavin: And and now at this point, look back with compassion because that... 00:21:35.975 --> 00:21:39.335 Trevor Gavin: All of us are doing the best with what we have, and had at 00:21:39.335 --> 00:21:42.055 Trevor Gavin: the time and what we were handed down. 00:21:42.055 --> 00:21:42.295 Trevor Gavin: That... 00:21:42.295 --> 00:21:45.120 Trevor Gavin: That's exactly what I was trying to do. 00:21:45.120 --> 00:21:48.560 Trevor Gavin: But realizing where some of these things were actually coming from, which a lot 00:21:48.560 --> 00:21:52.560 Trevor Gavin: of it was anxiety and shame and fear, 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:55.920 Trevor Gavin: that leads to really great things on the outside. 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:58.475 Trevor Gavin: But, it is exhausting. 00:21:58.475 --> 00:22:02.475 Trevor Gavin: And I do find that in talking with with leaders now, that there 00:22:02.475 --> 00:22:06.475 Trevor Gavin: is a low grade weariness and exhaustion even when 00:22:06.715 --> 00:22:08.875 Trevor Gavin: things are going really well. 00:22:08.875 --> 00:22:10.155 Lisa Nichols: Well... 00:22:10.155 --> 00:22:14.130 Trevor Gavin: Not just when, you know, the p and l doesn't look great or EBITDA 00:22:14.130 --> 00:22:17.810 Trevor Gavin: isn't where it needs to be, but even when things are going really well. 00:22:17.810 --> 00:22:21.250 Trevor Gavin: And so what do we do at that point? 00:22:21.250 --> 00:22:25.045 Lisa Nichols: Because I think part of it probably goes back to a little fear. 00:22:25.045 --> 00:22:25.365 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:22:25.365 --> 00:22:27.845 Lisa Nichols: What if it doesn't keep going well? 00:22:27.845 --> 00:22:28.245 Trevor Gavin: Correct. 00:22:28.245 --> 00:22:30.965 Lisa Nichols: Or what do we need to do to keep it going well? 00:22:30.965 --> 00:22:31.165 Lisa Nichols: Correct. 00:22:31.125 --> 00:22:31.325 Trevor Gavin: And 00:22:31.285 --> 00:22:34.085 Lisa Nichols: that's, you know, exhausting and just... 00:22:34.085 --> 00:22:34.565 Lisa Nichols: Boy. 00:22:34.565 --> 00:22:37.525 Lisa Nichols: I just know for myself, I can't do any of it on my own. 00:22:37.525 --> 00:22:37.765 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:22:37.765 --> 00:22:38.005 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:22:38.005 --> 00:22:40.550 Trevor Gavin: We're not in the outcomes business. 00:22:40.550 --> 00:22:41.190 Lisa Nichols: No. 00:22:41.190 --> 00:22:45.030 Lisa Nichols: And and when I've tried to do it on my own, that is when 00:22:45.030 --> 00:22:47.190 Lisa Nichols: I really get exhausted and burned out. 00:22:47.190 --> 00:22:50.470 Lisa Nichols: But, you know, what God calls us to is faithfulness. 00:22:50.470 --> 00:22:50.710 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:22:50.710 --> 00:22:51.670 Trevor Gavin: That's that's right. 00:22:51.670 --> 00:22:51.910 Trevor Gavin: When 00:22:51.910 --> 00:22:55.910 Lisa Nichols: we're faithful, he will bring the harvest 00:22:56.075 --> 00:22:56.955 Lisa Nichols: and the fruit. 00:22:56.955 --> 00:22:57.435 Lisa Nichols: Right? 00:22:57.435 --> 00:22:57.755 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:22:57.755 --> 00:23:01.595 Trevor Gavin: So And if it is true that his yoke is easy and his burden 00:23:01.595 --> 00:23:02.875 Trevor Gavin: is light Mhmm. 00:23:02.875 --> 00:23:06.870 Trevor Gavin: If that is true, then how are we to experience that? 00:23:06.870 --> 00:23:10.870 Trevor Gavin: And that's something I I think about quite regularly because I think there's 00:23:10.870 --> 00:23:14.870 Trevor Gavin: a number of yokes and burdens that I put on myself that nobody 00:23:15.030 --> 00:23:16.070 Trevor Gavin: else put on that. 00:23:16.070 --> 00:23:18.925 Trevor Gavin: Nobody else put put that on for me. 00:23:18.925 --> 00:23:19.245 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:23:19.245 --> 00:23:19.965 Trevor Gavin: God didn't... 00:23:19.965 --> 00:23:21.485 Trevor Gavin: Sometimes my employer didn't. 00:23:21.485 --> 00:23:25.485 Trevor Gavin: These are things that I've chosen to put on me for a whole slew 00:23:25.565 --> 00:23:26.845 Trevor Gavin: of reasons. 00:23:26.845 --> 00:23:30.445 Trevor Gavin: And yet, we have a different invitation, 00:23:30.445 --> 00:23:34.430 Trevor Gavin: that is such a gift and and the most profound invitation, to be able 00:23:34.430 --> 00:23:34.990 Trevor Gavin: to live in. 00:23:34.990 --> 00:23:38.270 Trevor Gavin: And so I'm curious about that and what that looks like. 00:23:38.270 --> 00:23:42.110 Trevor Gavin: And I'd love to know for you, as I'm, you know, again, approaching kinda 00:23:42.110 --> 00:23:46.110 Trevor Gavin: second half of life and, you know, there's, a great quote that I heard 00:23:46.155 --> 00:23:49.595 Trevor Gavin: too about success doesn't have the same things to teach us in the second 00:23:49.595 --> 00:23:51.915 Trevor Gavin: half of life as it did in the first half. 00:23:51.915 --> 00:23:55.915 Trevor Gavin: And so, you know, I'm thinking about different pieces and, 00:23:56.510 --> 00:23:58.830 Trevor Gavin: of who I want to become in the second half of life. 00:23:58.830 --> 00:24:02.030 Trevor Gavin: So I'd I'd be curious to learn from you on, some things that

you've 00:24:02.030 --> 00:24:04.430 Trevor Gavin: learned along the journey as well. 00:24:04.430 --> 00:24:05.390 Lisa Nichols: Oh my goodness. 00:24:05.390 --> 00:24:06.590 Lisa Nichols: Well, I'm still learning. 00:24:06.590 --> 00:24:07.310 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:24:07.310 --> 00:24:10.110 Lisa Nichols: I learn every day, and I struggle with some of these things that we're 00:24:10.110 --> 00:24:10.910 Lisa Nichols: talking about. 00:24:10.910 --> 00:24:11.150 Lisa Nichols: You know? 00:24:11.150 --> 00:24:12.885 Lisa Nichols: I can still fall into that trap. 00:24:12.885 --> 00:24:14.645 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:24:14.645 --> 00:24:18.165 Lisa Nichols: But realizing that, 00:24:18.165 --> 00:24:19.925 Lisa Nichols: you know, for me personally... 00:24:19.925 --> 00:24:23.925 Lisa Nichols: And I know our listeners may be in a different place. 00:24:24.700 --> 00:24:28.700 Lisa Nichols: But for me personally, you know, my faith is central Yeah. 00:24:28.780 --> 00:24:29.660 Lisa Nichols: To everything. 00:24:29.660 --> 00:24:31.340 Lisa Nichols: And I have to... 00:24:31.340 --> 00:24:32.620 Lisa Nichols: You know, the word abide. 00:24:32.620 --> 00:24:35.660 Lisa Nichols: You know, John fifteen five is one of my favorite verses. 00:24:35.660 --> 00:24:36.220 Lisa Nichols: You know? 00:24:36.220 --> 00:24:36.620 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:24:36.620 --> 00:24:37.660 Lisa Nichols: I am the vine. 00:24:37.660 --> 00:24:38.540 Lisa Nichols: You are the branches. 00:24:38.540 --> 00:24:42.335 Lisa Nichols: He who remains in me and I in you will bear much fruit. 00:24:42.335 --> 00:24:42.895 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:24:42.895 --> 00:24:45.935 Lisa Nichols: And then it goes on to say, for apart from me, you can do 00:24:45.935 --> 00:24:46.415 Lisa Nichols: nothing. 00:24:46.415 --> 00:24:46.815 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:24:46.815 --> 00:24:50.495 Lisa Nichols: And I know that there have been times where I've tried to do things 00:24:50.495 --> 00:24:52.575 Lisa Nichols: in my own strength apart from him. 00:24:52.575 --> 00:24:53.150 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:24:53.150 --> 00:24:57.150 Lisa Nichols: But I'm not gonna achieve anything of any eternal significance 00:24:57.310 --> 00:24:58.510 Lisa Nichols: without him. 00:24:58.510 --> 00:24:59.070 Lisa Nichols: You know? 00:24:59.070 --> 00:24:59.270 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:24:59.230 --> 00:25:01.150 Lisa Nichols: And so, 00:25:01.150 --> 00:25:02.590 Lisa Nichols: yeah, there's a lot there. 00:25:02.590 --> 00:25:04.750 Lisa Nichols: We probably have to do another podcast. 00:25:04.750 --> 00:25:05.390 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:25:05.390 --> 00:25:06.510 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:25:06.510 --> 00:25:07.150 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:25:07.150 --> 00:25:08.775 Trevor Gavin: That's so good, though. 00:25:08.775 --> 00:25:10.615 Lisa Nichols: So let me ask you this. 00:25:10.615 --> 00:25:12.775 Lisa Nichols: And, yeah, we're... 00:25:12.775 --> 00:25:12.975 Lisa Nichols: I'm... 00:25:12.935 --> 00:25:15.655 Lisa Nichols: I've

got a lot lot of questions here for you. 00:25:15.655 --> 00:25:19.655 Lisa Nichols: But what rhythms have you put in place personally, Trevor, to 00:25:19.735 --> 00:25:22.530 Lisa Nichols: keep you from going back into that place? 00:25:22.530 --> 00:25:24.290 Lisa Nichols: Because we can fall back into it. 00:25:24.290 --> 00:25:25.250 Lisa Nichols: Like I just said, I... 00:25:25.250 --> 00:25:26.930 Lisa Nichols: They won't fall back in there too. 00:25:26.930 --> 00:25:27.330 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:25:27.330 --> 00:25:31.090 Lisa Nichols: But what rhythms have you put in place to keep yourself from going back 00:25:31.090 --> 00:25:31.730 Lisa Nichols: there? 00:25:31.730 --> 00:25:32.290 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:25:32.290 --> 00:25:32.610 Trevor Gavin: I... 00:25:32.610 --> 00:25:36.610 Trevor Gavin: There's, there's three rhythms that I would now call my anchor rhythms. 00:25:37.655 --> 00:25:41.255 Trevor Gavin: And and I, I fail at these regularly. 00:25:41.255 --> 00:25:44.135 Trevor Gavin: But they are anchor rhythms for me. 00:25:44.135 --> 00:25:46.295 Trevor Gavin: Silence and solitude, 00:25:46.295 --> 00:25:50.295 Trevor Gavin: Sabbath once a week, and curiosity. 00:25:50.470 --> 00:25:54.470 Trevor Gavin: Silence and solitude for me, just taking a couple minutes in the morning 00:25:55.350 --> 00:25:57.750 Trevor Gavin: to be silent, to be quiet. 00:25:57.750 --> 00:25:58.870 Trevor Gavin: It is... 00:25:58.870 --> 00:26:02.870 Trevor Gavin: It makes my skin crawl at times because it seems unproductive. 00:26:03.215 --> 00:26:03.935 Lisa Nichols: Unproductive. 00:26:03.935 --> 00:26:05.935 Trevor Gavin: A waste of time. 00:26:05.935 --> 00:26:08.495 Trevor Gavin: And yet, 00:26:08.495 --> 00:26:10.015 Trevor Gavin: gives me the opportunity. 00:26:10.015 --> 00:26:14.015 Trevor Gavin: It allows my body a few moments to let some things come up that 00:26:14.015 --> 00:26:17.640 Trevor Gavin: I've been trying to push down, or rep... 00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:19.560 Trevor Gavin: Repress or not deal with. 00:26:19.560 --> 00:26:23.000 Trevor Gavin: And so in a very quiet and gentle way, it allows for some of 00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:27.000 Trevor Gavin: those, things to come up and for me to be able to, name 00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:31.160 Trevor Gavin: them honestly and be aware of them and become curious about them. 00:26:31.335 --> 00:26:35.335 Trevor Gavin: So that might be, you know, Monday morning knowing that a a really 00:26:35.415 --> 00:26:37.175 Trevor Gavin: busy week is is ahead of me. 00:26:37.175 --> 00:26:38.375 Trevor Gavin: There's some crucial meetings. 00:26:38.375 --> 00:26:41.440 Trevor Gavin: There's some deals that need to get closed or things like that. 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.440 Trevor Gavin: And, I'm feeling anxiety about that, 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:49.360 Trevor Gavin: in a way that is going to change how I show up. 00:26:49.360 --> 00:26:53.120 Trevor Gavin: And I have noticed for me, you know, leadership leaks. 00:26:53.120 --> 00:26:56.635 Trevor Gavin: Edwin Friedman has a great book called The Failure of Nerve, and he talks 00:26:56.635 --> 00:27:00.155 Trevor Gavin: about how leaders are the thermometers of the room. 00:27:00.155 --> 00:27:00.555 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:27:00.555 --> 00:27:04.555 Trevor Gavin: And I can find that although you might not necessarily hear 00:27:04.555 --> 00:27:08.555 Trevor Gavin: it in my tone, in a raised voice, or anything, but my anxiety 00:27:08.795 --> 00:27:12.560 Trevor Gavin: will leak out in how I talk to someone and what I ask for 00:27:12.560 --> 00:27:15.680 Trevor Gavin: them when I ask for it to be done or something like that. 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:19.600 Trevor Gavin: That then creates a temperature of anxiety in the room where everybody now feels 00:27:19.600 --> 00:27:20.720 Trevor Gavin: a little bit off. 00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:24.720 Trevor Gavin: We can't quite name it, but we all feel a little agitated. 00:27:25.145 --> 00:27:29.145 Trevor Gavin: And so now we're trying to force something that might not need 00:27:29.145 --> 00:27:30.425 Trevor Gavin: to be forced. 00:27:30.425 --> 00:27:33.945 Trevor Gavin: We're trying to push something through, maybe a bit premature. 00:27:33.945 --> 00:27:36.985 Trevor Gavin: We're trying to cut a corner to get a deadline hit. 00:27:36.985 --> 00:27:39.865 Trevor Gavin: And so it just gives me a chance to become a bit aware of 00:27:39.865 --> 00:27:42.630 Trevor Gavin: those things, try to name it and to be honest. 00:27:42.630 --> 00:27:45.190 Trevor Gavin: And then and then I I try to be honest with those that I 00:27:45.190 --> 00:27:47.190 Trevor Gavin: work with around, hey, this is... 00:27:47.190 --> 00:27:50.310 Trevor Gavin: I know we've got a big project that we're doing or there's a deadline 00:27:50.310 --> 00:27:50.630 Trevor Gavin: on this. 00:27:50.630 --> 00:27:53.755 Trevor Gavin: I I just want you to know I'm feeling a little anxious around it. 00:27:53.755 --> 00:27:56.235 Trevor Gavin: And so this is how I'm kind of showing up. 00:27:56.235 --> 00:28:00.235 Trevor Gavin: So silence and solitude, Sabbath, a twenty four hour period 00:28:01.035 --> 00:28:05.035 Trevor Gavin: where I choose to believe that God actually runs 00:28:05.275 --> 00:28:08.060 Trevor Gavin: the world, not me. 00:28:08.060 --> 00:28:12.060 Trevor Gavin: And as ridiculous as that sounds, it is a reminder to me 00:28:12.060 --> 00:28:15.100 Trevor Gavin: that, God is the one keeping things going. 00:28:15.100 --> 00:28:19.100 Trevor Gavin: And it's a reminder to me that, God enjoys me for 00:28:19.180 --> 00:28:21.495 Trevor Gavin: me and not for my production. 00:28:21.495 --> 00:28:25.495 Trevor Gavin: And that he is the one who has designed and hardwired rest and 00:28:25.575 --> 00:28:29.575 Trevor Gavin: joy and play into the universe, and that's a gift that I get 00:28:29.575 --> 00:28:31.415 Trevor Gavin: to receive. 00:28:31.415 --> 00:28:33.095 Trevor

Gavin: And then the third one is curiosity. 00:28:33.095 --> 00:28:37.095 Trevor Gavin: A a mentor told me, that shame often leads 00:28:37.250 --> 00:28:41.250 Trevor Gavin: to binary thinking, and binary thinking and curiosity can't coexist. 00:28:42.770 --> 00:28:43.970 Trevor Gavin: And so when I Can 00:28:43.970 --> 00:28:45.810 Lisa Nichols: I explain that? 00:28:45.810 --> 00:28:47.010 Lisa Nichols: Binary thinking. 00:28:47.010 --> 00:28:47.250 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:28:47.250 --> 00:28:47.650 Trevor Gavin: This... 00:28:47.650 --> 00:28:51.650 Trevor Gavin: I I mean, this illuminated so much for me personally. 00:28:51.885 --> 00:28:55.645 Trevor Gavin: When something, when something goes wrong, when it doesn't go the way that I 00:28:55.645 --> 00:28:58.125 Trevor Gavin: want it and want to, and maybe I didn't show up in a meeting 00:28:58.125 --> 00:29:01.325 Trevor Gavin: the way that I thought I should, I didn't produce something the way that 00:29:01.325 --> 00:29:05.325 Trevor Gavin: I thought that I should, My automatic response to that tends to be 00:29:05.390 --> 00:29:07.790 Trevor Gavin: shame, which is you failed. 00:29:07.790 --> 00:29:08.750 Trevor Gavin: You should have done better. 00:29:08.750 --> 00:29:09.870 Trevor Gavin: You could have done better. 00:29:09.870 --> 00:29:12.830 Trevor Gavin: Somebody else in your seat would have done better. 00:29:12.830 --> 00:29:16.245 Trevor Gavin: And so rather than be curious about that, I just believe that. 00:29:16.245 --> 00:29:20.085 Trevor Gavin: So that's the binary thinking, which leads to it was a failure or a 00:29:20.085 --> 00:29:22.485 Trevor Gavin: success, which leads to shame. 00:29:22.485 --> 00:29:25.925 Trevor Gavin: And so when I get into a shame cycle, the only... 00:29:25.925 --> 00:29:28.805 Trevor Gavin: For so long, the only way I've known how to get out of that 00:29:28.805 --> 00:29:32.805 Trevor Gavin: is to work my way out of it and to achievement 00:29:33.020 --> 00:29:36.300 Trevor Gavin: and to have people tell me that I did a good job and that 00:29:36.300 --> 00:29:40.300 Trevor Gavin: will get me out of it rather than going, 00:29:40.300 --> 00:29:43.660 Trevor Gavin: I I I wanna be curious about how that meeting went. 00:29:43.660 --> 00:29:46.955 Trevor Gavin: And is it true that it didn't go as well as I thought it 00:29:46.955 --> 00:29:47.275 Trevor Gavin: did? 00:29:47.275 --> 00:29:50.715 Trevor Gavin: Did someone say something, about that to me? 00:29:50.715 --> 00:29:54.715 Trevor Gavin: Is this something that I'm projecting onto the meeting because I didn't get the 00:29:54.795 --> 00:29:57.630 Trevor Gavin: affirmation that I thought I did? 00:29:57.630 --> 00:29:59.230 Trevor Gavin: And what can I learn about that? 00:29:59.230 --> 00:30:02.270 Trevor Gavin: And maybe it didn't go as bad as I thought it did. 00:30:02.270 --> 00:30:03.870 Trevor Gavin: And if that's true, then... 00:30:03.870 --> 00:30:04.190 Trevor Gavin: Okay. 00:30:04.190 --> 00:30:08.190 Trevor Gavin: Then what what is that actually telling me about myself and about the 00:30:08.190 --> 00:30:11.165 Trevor Gavin: people that I'm leading or serving or meeting with? 00:30:11.165 --> 00:30:14.845 Trevor Gavin: And so by just taking a moment to go, I just wanna get... 00:30:14.845 --> 00:30:18.525 Trevor Gavin: I wanna be compassionately curious about that. 00:30:18.525 --> 00:30:19.005 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:30:19.005 --> 00:30:19.885 Trevor Gavin: And and go That's 00:30:19.885 --> 00:30:20.525 Lisa Nichols: so good. 00:30:20.525 --> 00:30:21.405 Lisa Nichols: That is so good. 00:30:21.405 --> 00:30:21.805 Trevor Gavin: What does it... 00:30:21.805 --> 00:30:22.365 Trevor Gavin: What does that mean? 00:30:22.365 --> 00:30:24.660 Trevor Gavin: And then what do I need to learn from that? 00:30:24.660 --> 00:30:25.140 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:30:25.140 --> 00:30:26.260 Lisa Nichols: That is so good. 00:30:26.260 --> 00:30:26.900 Lisa Nichols: I love it. 00:30:26.900 --> 00:30:27.380 Lisa Nichols: I love it. 00:30:27.380 --> 00:30:27.700 Lisa Nichols: I love it. 00:30:27.700 --> 00:30:29.780 Lisa Nichols: I'm gonna remember those three. 00:30:29.780 --> 00:30:30.100 Lisa Nichols: Alright. 00:30:30.100 --> 00:30:33.140 Lisa Nichols: I've got a lot more questions for you, Trevor, but we do need to 00:30:33.140 --> 00:30:33.860 Lisa Nichols: take a quick break. 00:30:33.860 --> 00:30:34.100 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:30:34.100 --> 00:30:38.100 Lisa Nichols: We'll be right back with Trevor Gavin on the Something Extra podcast. 00:30:38.235 --> 00:30:42.235 AD: In business, the tendency is to seek out partners who are bigger, faster, 00:30:42.395 --> 00:30:42.955 AD: stronger. 00:30:42.955 --> 00:30:46.955 AD: When it comes to IT, you should be looking for smarter, faster, better. 00:30:47.115 --> 00:30:51.115 AD: That's just what you'll find with the talented technologists at Technology Partners. 00:30:51.210 --> 00:30:55.210 AD: Our experts develop custom solutions to tackle your most complex challenges, 00:30:55.690 --> 00:30:59.690 AD: all to simplify your processes in the smartest, most efficient way possible. 00:30:59.770 --> 00:31:02.330 AD: The time to be swift and nimble starts now. 00:31:02.330 --> 00:31:06.330 AD: Go to technology partners dot net slash solutions and see what's possible. 00:31:07.905 --> 00:31:11.905 Lisa Nichols: Welcome back, everyone, to the something extra podcast with Trevor Gavin. 00:31:12.385 --> 00:31:14.945 Lisa Nichols: So, Trevor, oh my goodness. 00:31:14.945 --> 00:31:18.945 Lisa Nichols: This has been so refreshing to my soul just to talk to you, 00:31:19.025 --> 00:31:20.190 Lisa Nichols: and I just I... 00:31:20.190 --> 00:31:20.750 Lisa Nichols: It's just... 00:31:20.750 --> 00:31:21.790 Lisa Nichols: Thank you so much. 00:31:21.790 --> 00:31:25.790 Lisa Nichols: Thank you for just being vulnerable and walking us through your process 00:31:25.790 --> 00:31:28.910 Lisa

Nichols: because I really do believe, I know it's helping me. 00:31:28.910 --> 00:31:30.830 Lisa Nichols: So thank you so much for that. 00:31:30.830 --> 00:31:33.345 Lisa Nichols: But let's talk about this. 00:31:33.345 --> 00:31:35.825 Lisa Nichols: You know, I wanna talk a little bit about BARNA. 00:31:35.825 --> 00:31:39.105 Lisa Nichols: You've done a lot of amazing things in your career, but right now, you're 00:31:39.105 --> 00:31:40.865 Lisa Nichols: the head of growth at BARNA. 00:31:40.865 --> 00:31:41.425 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:31:41.425 --> 00:31:45.425 Lisa Nichols: And when you and I initially spoke, I told you that I led kids 00:31:45.425 --> 00:31:45.665 Lisa Nichols: in... 00:31:45.665 --> 00:31:49.665 Lisa Nichols: Kids worship for a number of years, and I was constantly looking... 00:31:49.690 --> 00:31:52.570 Lisa Nichols: I still look at Barna research, but there may be... 00:31:52.570 --> 00:31:54.890 Lisa Nichols: Barna's headquartered in Dallas Yes. 00:31:54.890 --> 00:31:56.330 Lisa Nichols: Texas. 00:31:56.330 --> 00:31:59.530 Lisa Nichols: But there may be listeners out there that's like, who is Barna? 00:31:59.530 --> 00:32:00.490 Lisa Nichols: What is Barna? 00:32:00.490 --> 00:32:03.675 Lisa Nichols: Can you, like, just give us a little snippet of who Barna is? 00:32:03.675 --> 00:32:05.035 Lisa Nichols: And I've got lots of questions. 00:32:05.035 --> 00:32:05.275 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:32:05.275 --> 00:32:09.275 Trevor Gavin: So Barna's been around for forty one years now, and we 00:32:09.435 --> 00:32:13.435 Trevor Gavin: exist to help interpret the times to be able to show people, 00:32:14.075 --> 00:32:16.280 Trevor Gavin: and help people know what to do with that. 00:32:16.280 --> 00:32:20.280 Trevor Gavin: And so we do that primarily as a research firm as it relates to, 00:32:21.080 --> 00:32:24.600 Trevor Gavin: faith, to Christianity, to trends that we're seeing. 00:32:24.600 --> 00:32:28.600 Trevor Gavin: So as you mentioned earlier around AI, that is, AI is 00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:32.365 Trevor Gavin: is one of the areas that we're studying right now because it has so 00:32:32.365 --> 00:32:36.045 Trevor Gavin: many implications as it relates to work, 00:32:36.045 --> 00:32:38.525 Trevor Gavin: relationships, all all of it. 00:32:38.525 --> 00:32:42.525 Trevor Gavin: So we primarily do, research initiatives on these very large 00:32:42.765 --> 00:32:46.765 Trevor Gavin: scale projects to be able to help organizations, nonprofits, 00:32:46.780 --> 00:32:50.780 Trevor Gavin: churches, etcetera, understand what's going on and then to be able to have 00:32:50.780 --> 00:32:54.780 Trevor Gavin: the wisdom, most importantly, to know what we should be able to... 00:32:54.780 --> 00:32:56.875 Trevor Gavin: What we should do about those things. 00:32:56.875 --> 00:32:58.555 Trevor Gavin: And so we have a lot of research. 00:32:58.555 --> 00:33:00.555 Trevor Gavin: We have syndicated research that we have done. 00:33:00.555 --> 00:33:02.635 Trevor Gavin: We have a book publishing that we do. 00:33:02.635 --> 00:33:06.635 Trevor Gavin: We have consulting to be able to come alongside organizations and help them 00:33:06.795 --> 00:33:09.915 Trevor Gavin: navigate the complexity and the day and time we live in to be able 00:33:09.915 --> 00:33:13.915 Trevor Gavin: to help them think through mission critical things and so they can serve their, 00:33:14.630 --> 00:33:16.870 Trevor Gavin: their audience more effectively. 00:33:16.870 --> 00:33:17.430 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:33:17.430 --> 00:33:20.150 Lisa Nichols: If our listeners wanna learn more, where would they go? 00:33:20.150 --> 00:33:21.430 Lisa Nichols: What's the URL? 00:33:21.430 --> 00:33:22.630 Trevor Gavin: Super easy super easy. 00:33:22.630 --> 00:33:24.685 Trevor Gavin: They go to barna dot com. 00:33:24.685 --> 00:33:28.685 Trevor Gavin: We are always posting new editorials based on the research that we're doing. 00:33:29.645 --> 00:33:33.485 Trevor Gavin: So a lot on AI right now, especially as people, you know, are going 00:33:33.485 --> 00:33:37.485 Trevor Gavin: to AI for, really therapists, companionship, 00:33:38.140 --> 00:33:40.460 Trevor Gavin: existential questions, all of those things. 00:33:40.460 --> 00:33:43.820 Trevor Gavin: So we have some really profound research that's coming out on that, but they 00:33:43.820 --> 00:33:46.300 Trevor Gavin: can go to barna dot com to learn more about all of that. 00:33:46.300 --> 00:33:47.180 Lisa Nichols: Very good. 00:33:47.180 --> 00:33:48.220 Lisa Nichols: Very good. 00:33:48.220 --> 00:33:52.015 Lisa Nichols: Well, I know that you guys have done a lot of research on this, 00:33:52.015 --> 00:33:53.855 Lisa Nichols: Trevor, and I wanna talk about it. 00:33:53.855 --> 00:33:56.735 Lisa Nichols: What separates the leaders who finish well from the... 00:33:56.735 --> 00:34:00.255 Lisa Nichols: Those who quietly don't finish well? 00:34:00.255 --> 00:34:02.735 Lisa Nichols: And what is that research telling us? 00:34:02.735 --> 00:34:03.055 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:34:03.055 --> 00:34:06.750 Trevor Gavin: It's it's no surprise, especially in the Christian community. 00:34:06.750 --> 00:34:10.750 Trevor Gavin: It feels like we see a headline every week of a 00:34:10.830 --> 00:34:14.830 Trevor Gavin: leader that, is not finishing well, through a multitude 00:34:15.310 --> 00:34:16.565 Trevor Gavin: of reasons. 00:34:16.565 --> 00:34:19.925 Trevor Gavin: And so one of the things we're learning right now is about the pressure 00:34:19.925 --> 00:34:23.925 Trevor Gavin: that leaders are facing and what they're doing to try 00:34:24.005 --> 00:34:26.405 Trevor Gavin: to navigate that pressure. 00:34:26.405 --> 00:34:30.405 Trevor Gavin: We do know that the stats show that, leaders have 00:34:30.720 --> 00:34:33.840 Trevor Gavin: a challenge as it relates to relationships, 00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:37.840 Trevor Gavin: having a couple people in their

life that they can be honest 00:34:38.160 --> 00:34:42.015 Trevor Gavin: and transparent with about their struggles. 00:34:42.015 --> 00:34:46.015 Trevor Gavin: Isolation tends to be one of the things that really hurts and cripples 00:34:46.255 --> 00:34:46.735 Trevor Gavin: leaders. 00:34:46.735 --> 00:34:50.735 Trevor Gavin: I think in faith, outside of faith, I believe we are meant 00:34:50.815 --> 00:34:52.015 Trevor Gavin: for relationship. 00:34:52.015 --> 00:34:56.015 Trevor Gavin: And so being isolated is one of those detrimental 00:34:56.620 --> 00:34:59.500 Trevor Gavin: parts to our leadership as well as our humanity. 00:34:59.500 --> 00:35:03.500 Trevor Gavin: Some of the other things we're learning around, like, even hobbies, 00:35:03.660 --> 00:35:07.660 Trevor Gavin: leaders who have hobbies tend to, be a bit healthier, 00:35:08.645 --> 00:35:11.525 Trevor Gavin: because they have outlets emotionally, physically. 00:35:11.525 --> 00:35:15.205 Trevor Gavin: They have other places for joy and for happiness, things like that. 00:35:15.205 --> 00:35:17.205 Trevor Gavin: So relationships, 00:35:17.205 --> 00:35:20.805 Trevor Gavin: hobbies, and then emotional mental health, kind of, you know, some of the things 00:35:20.805 --> 00:35:22.230 Trevor Gavin: we talked about. 00:35:22.230 --> 00:35:26.230 Trevor Gavin: The profound pressure that people are feeling leaders inside of 00:35:26.710 --> 00:35:30.710 Trevor Gavin: the Christian faith, outside of it, the profound pressures that people are feeling 00:35:30.790 --> 00:35:32.150 Trevor Gavin: because how thing... 00:35:32.150 --> 00:35:36.150 Trevor Gavin: How fast things are changing, how dynamic it is, and how disorienting 00:35:37.045 --> 00:35:40.085 Trevor Gavin: the economy feels on a global stage on... 00:35:40.085 --> 00:35:42.245 Trevor Gavin: In our own lives, etcetera. 00:35:42.245 --> 00:35:46.245 Trevor Gavin: And those pressures, are mounting for leaders, and they don't 00:35:46.325 --> 00:35:48.180 Trevor Gavin: appear to be going anywhere. 00:35:48.180 --> 00:35:48.900 Trevor Gavin: And yet Right. 00:35:48.900 --> 00:35:49.220 Trevor Gavin: We... 00:35:49.220 --> 00:35:52.260 Trevor Gavin: As we look at the data and we look at what people are doing, 00:35:52.260 --> 00:35:55.700 Trevor Gavin: there are ways to be able to navigate it that we can thrive. 00:35:55.700 --> 00:35:57.300 Trevor Gavin: And so we are start... 00:35:57.300 --> 00:36:01.300 Trevor Gavin: We are hoping through longitudinal studies, studies that happen recurring, 00:36:01.795 --> 00:36:05.795 Trevor Gavin: that we can actually see some shifts in leaders' health and their 00:36:05.795 --> 00:36:09.795 Trevor Gavin: longevity in the hopes that we can make the changes necessary to be able 00:36:09.795 --> 00:36:11.475 Trevor Gavin: to finish well. 00:36:11.475 --> 00:36:12.515 Trevor Gavin: Mhmm. 00:36:12.515 --> 00:36:12.915 Lisa Nichols: Well... 00:36:12.915 --> 00:36:15.990 Lisa Nichols: And I think, you know, as you're talking about that, Trevor, I'm thinking it's 00:36:15.990 --> 00:36:19.990 Lisa Nichols: it's people like you really being vulnerable with your 00:36:20.310 --> 00:36:20.510 Lisa Nichols: story. 00:36:20.470 --> 00:36:24.070 Lisa Nichols: It's like if you keep going down this path where you just work harder 00:36:24.070 --> 00:36:25.510 Lisa Nichols: and harder and you don't have... 00:36:25.510 --> 00:36:29.510 Lisa Nichols: You don't honor the Sabbath, have that twenty four hour period 00:36:29.990 --> 00:36:32.445 Lisa Nichols: where, you know, you don't feel like you have to accomplish. 00:36:32.445 --> 00:36:33.645 Lisa Nichols: You can just be. 00:36:33.645 --> 00:36:34.605 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:36:34.605 --> 00:36:36.525 Lisa Nichols: You know, I think it's... 00:36:36.525 --> 00:36:40.525 Lisa Nichols: Because I think sometimes there's not a self awareness that it's even 00:36:40.605 --> 00:36:43.485 Lisa Nichols: happening, right, until it's too late. 00:36:43.485 --> 00:36:43.805 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:36:43.805 --> 00:36:44.285 Lisa Nichols: Right? 00:36:44.285 --> 00:36:48.285 Lisa Nichols: So I think that's a really important part of it is having 00:36:48.410 --> 00:36:49.930 Lisa Nichols: people tell their stories 00:36:49.930 --> 00:36:50.250 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:36:50.250 --> 00:36:53.930 Lisa Nichols: That I was going this way and, you know, I was getting ready to 00:36:53.930 --> 00:36:55.850 Lisa Nichols: crash, or maybe I did crash. 00:36:55.850 --> 00:36:56.250 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:36:56.250 --> 00:36:56.730 Lisa Nichols: Right? 00:36:56.730 --> 00:36:57.290 Lisa Nichols: So 00:36:57.290 --> 00:36:59.255 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:36:59.255 --> 00:37:00.135 Lisa Nichols: You know, I mean... 00:37:00.135 --> 00:37:03.655 Lisa Nichols: And you kinda already talked about this a little bit, but what are some 00:37:03.655 --> 00:37:07.655 Lisa Nichols: of those warning signs, you know, that a leader can look for 00:37:07.735 --> 00:37:11.575 Lisa Nichols: to go, you know, I I think I'm not not heading in the right 00:37:11.575 --> 00:37:11.775 Lisa Nichols: direction. 00:37:11.775 --> 00:37:15.190 Lisa Nichols: I think my ladder may be up against the wrong wall here. 00:37:15.190 --> 00:37:15.750 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:37:15.750 --> 00:37:16.070 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:37:16.070 --> 00:37:16.270 Trevor Gavin: The... 00:37:16.230 --> 00:37:20.230 Trevor Gavin: One of, one of my mentors said, you should look at your emotions 00:37:20.710 --> 00:37:23.750 Trevor Gavin: the same way you look at the dashboard in your car. 00:37:23.750 --> 00:37:27.750 Trevor Gavin: And so, you know, we've all had the experience of the check, check oil 00:37:27.910 --> 00:37:29.035 Trevor Gavin: light come on. 00:37:29.035 --> 00:37:29.595 Trevor Gavin: And Yes. 00:37:29.595 --> 00:37:31.595 Trevor Gavin: We see that and we go, no, I'm good. 00:37:31.595 --> 00:37:33.115 Trevor Gavin: I've got a I've got a couple more...

00:37:33.115 --> 00:37:35.115 Trevor Gavin: A hundred more miles before I need to check that. 00:37:35.115 --> 00:37:36.555 Trevor Gavin: I'm not gonna worry about it. 00:37:36.555 --> 00:37:39.915 Trevor Gavin: And then you see the low tire pressure come on, and you go, that's 00:37:39.915 --> 00:37:42.875 Trevor Gavin: only two PSIs below what it needs to be. 00:37:42.875 --> 00:37:44.120 Trevor Gavin: I'll I'll be fine. 00:37:44.120 --> 00:37:44.760 Trevor Gavin: And that... 00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:47.800 Trevor Gavin: While it's at that stage, you go, oh, this is a quick fix. 00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:50.200 Trevor Gavin: I can go to the gas station, put more air in the tire. 00:37:50.200 --> 00:37:53.880 Trevor Gavin: I'm going to, get an oil change, and it's fifty bucks. 00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:55.480 Trevor Gavin: No no problem. 00:37:55.480 --> 00:37:59.480 Trevor Gavin: What happens when we, don't listen to those check engine lights 00:37:59.765 --> 00:38:03.765 Trevor Gavin: and things like that over time, they get worse and they 00:38:03.765 --> 00:38:05.605 Trevor Gavin: can become catastrophic. 00:38:05.605 --> 00:38:09.605 Trevor Gavin: And so when when we're thinking about that, you know, our body is 00:38:10.230 --> 00:38:13.350 Trevor Gavin: a major profit, not not a minor profit. 00:38:13.350 --> 00:38:17.350 Trevor Gavin: And so that can come through a number of different ways, which tightness 00:38:17.350 --> 00:38:21.350 Trevor Gavin: in our chest, tight shoulders, never being able to 00:38:21.430 --> 00:38:25.430 Trevor Gavin: feel like we can relax, never feel like we can turn it off. 00:38:27.165 --> 00:38:31.165 Trevor Gavin: The way we think about the future, starts to impact that if 00:38:31.165 --> 00:38:35.165 Trevor Gavin: we're, beginning to think more negatively, our own motivations 00:38:35.645 --> 00:38:39.645 Trevor Gavin: start to change, for some it's lethargy, 00:38:40.160 --> 00:38:42.720 Trevor Gavin: the lack of motivation to be able to get up, to be able to 00:38:42.720 --> 00:38:44.720 Trevor Gavin: do the things that we were doing. 00:38:44.720 --> 00:38:48.720 Trevor Gavin: For me, the big one that showed itself was 00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:52.960 Trevor Gavin: my inability to be present with the person that was in front of me. 00:38:53.355 --> 00:38:57.355 Trevor Gavin: So, you know, Lisa, you and I could be having this conversation, but I'm 00:38:57.355 --> 00:38:59.835 Trevor Gavin: thinking about the meeting that I have after this. 00:38:59.835 --> 00:39:02.315 Trevor Gavin: I'm thinking about the project that is due. 00:39:02.315 --> 00:39:03.995 Trevor Gavin: I'm thinking about all of these things. 00:39:03.995 --> 00:39:07.995 Trevor Gavin: And while we're able to have a conversation, I'm not present 00:39:07.995 --> 00:39:09.440 Trevor Gavin: at all. 00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:13.440 Trevor Gavin: I could be checking my phone, looking at an email, waiting for it. 00:39:13.520 --> 00:39:17.280 Trevor Gavin: And that was a big indicator for me that that something's a bit off 00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:19.760 Trevor Gavin: is because I don't feel like I can be present with the people in 00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:20.400 Trevor Gavin: front of me. 00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:24.400 Trevor Gavin: And, of course, where that shows up most was with my kids. 00:39:24.935 --> 00:39:28.935 Trevor Gavin: And so when I start hearing from my kids, dad, I... 00:39:28.935 --> 00:39:31.735 Trevor Gavin: You're on your phone too much. 00:39:31.735 --> 00:39:34.135 Trevor Gavin: That was an indicator for me. 00:39:34.135 --> 00:39:34.775 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:39:34.775 --> 00:39:35.255 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:39:35.255 --> 00:39:35.975 Lisa Nichols: And Yeah. 00:39:35.975 --> 00:39:39.975 Trevor Gavin: I want to justify that behavior because, it 00:39:40.130 --> 00:39:41.250 Trevor Gavin: was an important email. 00:39:41.250 --> 00:39:42.690 Trevor Gavin: It was an important Slack. 00:39:42.690 --> 00:39:45.410 Trevor Gavin: I'm waiting for a signature on something. 00:39:45.410 --> 00:39:48.770 Trevor Gavin: And, and and that has its place and things like that. 00:39:48.770 --> 00:39:52.770 Trevor Gavin: But there was a repeated behavior and pattern, where I would 00:39:52.770 --> 00:39:54.885 Trevor Gavin: try to escape. 00:39:54.885 --> 00:39:56.885 Trevor Gavin: And I would love to use my phone for that. 00:39:56.885 --> 00:40:00.565 Trevor Gavin: I would love to use other things, and my kids my kids notice it. 00:40:00.565 --> 00:40:01.445 Lisa Nichols: They noticed it. 00:40:01.445 --> 00:40:01.765 Lisa Nichols: Right? 00:40:01.765 --> 00:40:02.005 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:40:02.005 --> 00:40:02.885 Lisa Nichols: And they'll call me out. 00:40:02.885 --> 00:40:04.965 Lisa Nichols: And my kids have called me out on things. 00:40:04.965 --> 00:40:08.965 Lisa Nichols: I remember one time, few years ago, 00:40:09.500 --> 00:40:12.300 Lisa Nichols: you know, because I'm sure you you get this. 00:40:12.300 --> 00:40:15.420 Lisa Nichols: I mean, I could be doing something different every night of the week if 00:40:15.420 --> 00:40:16.220 Lisa Nichols: I wanted to be. 00:40:16.220 --> 00:40:16.620 Lisa Nichols: You know? 00:40:16.620 --> 00:40:18.060 Lisa Nichols: There's something to go to. 00:40:18.060 --> 00:40:18.460 Lisa Nichols: Right? 00:40:18.460 --> 00:40:18.860 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:40:18.860 --> 00:40:21.095 Lisa Nichols: And there'd been three nights in a row. 00:40:21.095 --> 00:40:23.975 Lisa Nichols: You know, I had a wake, you know, for a friend that had lost 00:40:23.975 --> 00:40:24.615 Lisa Nichols: her dad. 00:40:24.615 --> 00:40:26.135 Lisa Nichols: I mean, three things in a row. 00:40:26.135 --> 00:40:30.135 Lisa Nichols: And our grandson Sawyer piped up and said, Yaya, I 00:40:30.215 --> 00:40:32.375 Lisa Nichols: wanted to do art last night 00:40:32.375 --> 00:40:32.695 Trevor Gavin: Wow. 00:40:32.695 --> 00:40:34.820 Lisa Nichols: And you weren't here.

00:40:34.820 --> 00:40:36.500 Lisa Nichols: And I was like, whoo. 00:40:36.500 --> 00:40:37.060 Lisa Nichols: You know? 00:40:37.060 --> 00:40:40.420 Lisa Nichols: I mean, leave it to your children out of the mouth of babes. 00:40:40.420 --> 00:40:40.820 Lisa Nichols: Right? 00:40:40.820 --> 00:40:41.620 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:40:41.620 --> 00:40:42.180 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:40:42.180 --> 00:40:46.180 Lisa Nichols: And I think God uses them, you know, really does sometimes get 00:40:46.260 --> 00:40:47.140 Lisa Nichols: us back on track. 00:40:47.140 --> 00:40:47.460 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:48.020 Trevor Gavin: Right? 00:40:48.020 --> 00:40:48.740 Trevor Gavin: So loudly. 00:40:48.740 --> 00:40:49.460 Trevor Gavin: So loudly. 00:40:49.460 --> 00:40:50.425 Trevor Gavin: And that's Yes. 00:40:50.425 --> 00:40:54.425 Trevor Gavin: One of the other things, Donald Miller talks about the difference between resume 00:40:54.665 --> 00:40:57.225 Trevor Gavin: virtues and eulogy virtues. 00:40:57.225 --> 00:41:01.225 Trevor Gavin: And I found that to be so profoundly convicting 00:41:01.465 --> 00:41:05.465 Trevor Gavin: and inspiring for me, which is to say at at our eulogy, 00:41:05.890 --> 00:41:09.890 Trevor Gavin: the last thing that I hope anyone mentions is an acquisition that we 00:41:09.970 --> 00:41:13.970 Trevor Gavin: had was, a seven figure eight figure deal 00:41:13.970 --> 00:41:16.610 Trevor Gavin: that closed or anything like that. 00:41:16.610 --> 00:41:20.610 Trevor Gavin: But I'm hopeful that it'll be, that I got to do art. 00:41:21.505 --> 00:41:25.505 Trevor Gavin: That, you know, that we did art together, that we played some games 00:41:25.745 --> 00:41:29.745 Trevor Gavin: together, and that, I remember, you know, my hope is that I, 00:41:30.065 --> 00:41:34.065 Trevor Gavin: is that I remembered for someone who was present, fully present. 00:41:34.210 --> 00:41:35.970 Trevor Gavin: And that I think about Jesus there. 00:41:35.970 --> 00:41:39.810 Trevor Gavin: And again, for for those that, that faith isn't central. 00:41:39.810 --> 00:41:40.210 Trevor Gavin: But I... 00:41:40.210 --> 00:41:44.210 Trevor Gavin: When I think about Jesus, his mission effectively was to get 00:41:44.370 --> 00:41:47.395 Trevor Gavin: the church up off the ground, save the world. 00:41:47.395 --> 00:41:51.395 Trevor Gavin: And yet when you see him in the New Testament, the way he speaks 00:41:51.555 --> 00:41:55.555 Trevor Gavin: to people of zero social class on up to the 00:41:55.635 --> 00:41:59.155 Trevor Gavin: most people that we would be impressed with, it would appear that he has 00:41:59.155 --> 00:42:02.910 Trevor Gavin: nothing else to do in his day other than to be present with the 00:42:02.910 --> 00:42:05.150 Trevor Gavin: person right in front of him. 00:42:05.150 --> 00:42:09.150 Trevor Gavin: And I find that to be so compelling and convicting, 00:42:10.670 --> 00:42:14.670 Trevor Gavin: because often my mind is going a

hundred different directions. 00:42:15.065 --> 00:42:16.345 Lisa Nichols: I hear you. 00:42:16.345 --> 00:42:16.585 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:42:16.585 --> 00:42:17.545 Lisa Nichols: I love that. 00:42:17.545 --> 00:42:20.585 Lisa Nichols: I'm glad I'm glad that you brought that up because, I mean, I always 00:42:20.585 --> 00:42:22.185 Lisa Nichols: said he was interruptible. 00:42:22.185 --> 00:42:22.585 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:42:22.585 --> 00:42:22.985 Lisa Nichols: You know? 00:42:22.985 --> 00:42:23.465 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:42:23.465 --> 00:42:25.785 Lisa Nichols: You know, pleasantly interruptible. 00:42:25.785 --> 00:42:26.105 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:42:26.105 --> 00:42:26.665 Lisa Nichols: You know? 00:42:26.665 --> 00:42:27.145 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:42:27.145 --> 00:42:27.865 Lisa Nichols: Because... 00:42:27.865 --> 00:42:29.320 Lisa Nichols: I mean, yeah. 00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:29.800 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:32.280 Lisa Nichols: Jarrah's daughter, he's on his way. 00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:32.680 Lisa Nichols: Right? 00:42:32.680 --> 00:42:35.080 Lisa Nichols: And the woman with the issue of blood comes and 00:42:35.080 --> 00:42:35.480 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:36.120 Lisa Nichols: It's not like... 00:42:36.120 --> 00:42:37.080 Lisa Nichols: He's like, no. 00:42:37.080 --> 00:42:38.760 Lisa Nichols: You know, don't bother me. 00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:39.320 Lisa Nichols: I got it. 00:42:39.320 --> 00:42:40.280 Lisa Nichols: I got a mission. 00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:41.605 Lisa Nichols: I've got an agenda. 00:42:41.605 --> 00:42:42.325 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:42:42.325 --> 00:42:43.125 Lisa Nichols: I just love that. 00:42:43.125 --> 00:42:45.285 Lisa Nichols: If we could just be more like that. 00:42:45.285 --> 00:42:48.965 Lisa Nichols: If we could just be more like that. 00:42:48.965 --> 00:42:49.845 Lisa Nichols: Oh goodness. 00:42:49.845 --> 00:42:52.565 Lisa Nichols: Let me see. 00:42:52.565 --> 00:42:52.885 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:42:52.885 --> 00:42:53.525 Lisa Nichols: What does... 00:42:53.525 --> 00:42:53.845 Lisa Nichols: Okay. 00:42:53.845 --> 00:42:57.845 Lisa Nichols: So we often measure leadership though, by the world standards, 00:42:58.280 --> 00:42:59.560 Lisa Nichols: EBITDA Yes. 00:42:59.560 --> 00:43:01.240 Lisa Nichols: Revenue, 00:43:01.240 --> 00:43:02.920 Lisa Nichols: you know, followers Yes. 00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:05.640 Lisa Nichols: Organizational impact in the world. 00:43:05.640 --> 00:43:05.960 Lisa Nichols: You know? 00:43:05.960 --> 00:43:09.960 Lisa Nichols: But what does Barna's research suggest that we should be measuring? 00:43:10.040 --> 00:43:10.835 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:43:10.835 --> 00:43:14.835 Trevor Gavin: We're, we are looking at a lot of different research around this, in particular, 00:43:15.395 --> 00:43:18.035 Trevor Gavin: in, in the church space as well. 00:43:18.035 --> 00:43:22.035 Trevor Gavin: And so we're having early conversations about what the future church

might 00:43:22.195 --> 00:43:23.520 Trevor Gavin: look like. 00:43:23.520 --> 00:43:27.520 Trevor Gavin: And I would say the one that is probably most relevant is around AI. 00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:31.920 Trevor Gavin: And I think one of the gifts of the church that the church can 00:43:32.080 --> 00:43:34.400 Trevor Gavin: be in the world 00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:38.400 Trevor Gavin: is the best place for human connection on the planet. 00:43:38.675 --> 00:43:42.675 Trevor Gavin: So as things go more artificial, and it is our belief that we were 00:43:42.835 --> 00:43:46.835 Trevor Gavin: created, hardwired, for relationship, that 00:43:46.835 --> 00:43:50.835 Trevor Gavin: that's going to be an area that has desperate need and implications 00:43:51.075 --> 00:43:52.430 Trevor Gavin: for. 00:43:52.430 --> 00:43:56.430 Trevor Gavin: And so as we think about those things, for the future church, etcetera, 00:43:57.150 --> 00:44:01.150 Trevor Gavin: the place of human connection that is irreplaceable through 00:44:01.230 --> 00:44:05.230 Trevor Gavin: anything artificial needs to become more central. 00:44:05.335 --> 00:44:09.335 Trevor Gavin: So we are big believers in trying to leverage the gift that 00:44:09.335 --> 00:44:13.335 Trevor Gavin: AI helps us with, but not at the extent or the 00:44:13.655 --> 00:44:17.655 Trevor Gavin: expense of human capital and human relationships for ultimately 00:44:17.895 --> 00:44:20.850 Trevor Gavin: the flourishing of our society. 00:44:20.850 --> 00:44:21.650 Lisa Nichols: Mhmm. 00:44:21.650 --> 00:44:23.090 Lisa Nichols: Oh, that's so good. 00:44:23.090 --> 00:44:24.210 Lisa Nichols: That's so good. 00:44:24.210 --> 00:44:25.570 Lisa Nichols: Oh my goodness. 00:44:25.570 --> 00:44:29.330 Lisa Nichols: I probably had three more pages here, but we're running out of time, Trevor. 00:44:29.330 --> 00:44:33.330 Lisa Nichols: We needed to, we needed to to make this a longer podcast. 00:44:34.815 --> 00:44:38.095 Lisa Nichols: Let me let me, go here. 00:44:38.095 --> 00:44:38.575 Lisa Nichols: Okay. 00:44:38.575 --> 00:44:41.695 Lisa Nichols: I told you, not in a weird way, but I've stalked you. 00:44:41.695 --> 00:44:42.095 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:44:42.095 --> 00:44:42.495 Lisa Nichols: Okay? 00:44:42.495 --> 00:44:42.735 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:44:42.735 --> 00:44:43.695 Trevor Gavin: Not in a weird way. 00:44:43.695 --> 00:44:46.655 Lisa Nichols: Do you do you do jiu jitsu and you go, yes. 00:44:46.655 --> 00:44:47.295 Lisa Nichols: I do. 00:44:47.295 --> 00:44:48.575 Lisa Nichols: I love I love that. 00:44:48.575 --> 00:44:49.260 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:44:49.260 --> 00:44:51.260 Lisa Nichols: How how how does that show up for you? 00:44:51.260 --> 00:44:52.940 Lisa Nichols: I mean, it's great conditioning. 00:44:52.940 --> 00:44:53.580 Lisa Nichols: Right? 00:44:53.580 --> 00:44:55.420 Trevor Gavin: It is, it is great con... 00:44:55.420 --> 00:44:56.220 Trevor Gavin: Conditioning. 00:44:56.220 --> 00:45:00.220 Trevor Gavin: It is the most, humbling thing I've ever done in my life, 00:45:01.820 --> 00:45:03.205 Trevor Gavin: repeatedly. 00:45:03.205 --> 00:45:03.925 Trevor Gavin: Yep. 00:45:03.925 --> 00:45:06.885 Trevor Gavin: But this, it is a place for me. 00:45:06.885 --> 00:45:10.885 Trevor Gavin: Again, it demands it demands a hundred percent presence, 00:45:11.365 --> 00:45:14.565 Trevor Gavin: because if I'm thinking about anything else, I will end up in a rear 00:45:14.565 --> 00:45:16.700 Trevor Gavin: naked choke or an armbar. 00:45:16.700 --> 00:45:18.940 Trevor Gavin: So it demands me to be present. 00:45:18.940 --> 00:45:19.900 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:45:19.900 --> 00:45:23.900 Trevor Gavin: It is a fascinating, art which, you know, 00:45:24.780 --> 00:45:26.860 Trevor Gavin: involves your entire body. 00:45:26.860 --> 00:45:30.860 Trevor Gavin: And so, for example, our professor can show us an 00:45:30.940 --> 00:45:34.685 Trevor Gavin: armbar, and he can show us the three steps to be able to do 00:45:34.685 --> 00:45:35.245 Trevor Gavin: that. 00:45:35.245 --> 00:45:38.845 Trevor Gavin: And then what you'll do is you'll go practice that with your partner in 00:45:38.845 --> 00:45:42.845 Trevor Gavin: a static environment where you just mechanically do step one, step two, 00:45:43.005 --> 00:45:46.350 Trevor Gavin: step three, and we will drill that multiple times. 00:45:46.350 --> 00:45:48.750 Trevor Gavin: And then by the end of it, you go, or I go, oh, I 00:45:48.750 --> 00:45:50.270 Trevor Gavin: think I got an arm bar. 00:45:50.270 --> 00:45:52.510 Trevor Gavin: And then we'll switch into... 00:45:52.510 --> 00:45:54.350 Trevor Gavin: Then resistance will come in. 00:45:54.350 --> 00:45:58.350 Trevor Gavin: So instead of just doing it statically with no resistance, they'll put resistance 00:45:58.495 --> 00:45:58.815 Trevor Gavin: in. 00:45:58.815 --> 00:46:02.095 Trevor Gavin: And then I go, oh, I'm actually not as good as I thought I 00:46:02.095 --> 00:46:04.575 Trevor Gavin: was when there was no resistance. 00:46:04.575 --> 00:46:08.015 Trevor Gavin: And then that'll move into what is called a live environment where we're actually 00:46:08.015 --> 00:46:08.975 Trevor Gavin: rolling. 00:46:08.975 --> 00:46:11.070 Trevor Gavin: And then I can do it at all. 00:46:11.070 --> 00:46:14.830 Trevor Gavin: And if I try to, it looks incredibly clunky, and then I typically get 00:46:14.830 --> 00:46:16.750 Trevor Gavin: submitted by something else. 00:46:16.750 --> 00:46:20.750 Trevor Gavin: And, that practice of learning again how to 00:46:20.750 --> 00:46:24.750 Trevor Gavin: become the type of person who can see an armbar and do an armbar, 00:46:25.710 --> 00:46:29.515 Trevor Gavin: takes so much time and repetition, 00:46:29.515 --> 00:46:33.515 Trevor Gavin: over and over again to be able to do that has been a real 00:46:33.595 --> 00:46:35.435 Trevor Gavin: leadership lesson for me. 00:46:35.435 --> 00:46:39.435 Trevor Gavin: The

other leadership lesson for me that has really helped is 00:46:39.700 --> 00:46:43.220 Trevor Gavin: there is such a small population of the world that does jujitsu that even 00:46:43.220 --> 00:46:44.500 Trevor Gavin: tries it for 00:46:44.500 --> 00:46:44.820 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:46:44.820 --> 00:46:46.260 Trevor Gavin: Very obvious reasons. 00:46:46.260 --> 00:46:50.260 Trevor Gavin: There's an even smaller population of people that continue to do it 00:46:50.340 --> 00:46:51.780 Trevor Gavin: because it is painful. 00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:55.335 Trevor Gavin: It is humbling, but it is one of the greatest things I've ever done. 00:46:55.335 --> 00:46:59.335 Trevor Gavin: And so there is a culture in jujitsu that just celebrates you showing up 00:46:59.335 --> 00:47:02.135 Trevor Gavin: on the mat again. 00:47:02.135 --> 00:47:03.575 Lisa Nichols: Oh, I love that. 00:47:03.575 --> 00:47:03.895 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:47:03.895 --> 00:47:05.735 Lisa Nichols: Celebrate the fact that you showed up. 00:47:05.735 --> 00:47:06.135 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:47:06.135 --> 00:47:06.855 Lisa Nichols: I love that. 00:47:06.855 --> 00:47:08.660 Trevor Gavin: It's hard enough to come in the first time. 00:47:08.660 --> 00:47:08.980 Trevor Gavin: Yeah. 00:47:08.980 --> 00:47:12.820 Trevor Gavin: It's even harder to come in the second time after you've been beaten up. 00:47:12.820 --> 00:47:13.460 Lisa Nichols: Beaten up. 00:47:13.460 --> 00:47:16.260 Trevor Gavin: And so there is just a culture of celebrate. 00:47:16.260 --> 00:47:18.020 Trevor Gavin: You showed up again. 00:47:18.020 --> 00:47:22.020 Trevor Gavin: And if you keep showing up, then you're gonna see improvement in these 00:47:22.180 --> 00:47:25.215 Trevor Gavin: areas, and you will get better and all of that. 00:47:25.215 --> 00:47:25.855 Trevor Gavin: But I just... 00:47:25.855 --> 00:47:29.855 Trevor Gavin: I love the thought of in a world, especially leadership, 00:47:30.895 --> 00:47:34.735 Trevor Gavin: we have personal lives, we have our work lives, we have what's going on 00:47:34.735 --> 00:47:37.540 Trevor Gavin: in the economy and the world, all these different things. 00:47:37.540 --> 00:47:41.540 Trevor Gavin: And there's just times where I just wanna celebrate people, you showed up again. 00:47:42.340 --> 00:47:46.340 Trevor Gavin: And let's let's just name name that and honor that because it's 00:47:46.420 --> 00:47:47.780 Trevor Gavin: not always easy to do that. 00:47:47.780 --> 00:47:51.265 Trevor Gavin: And that's been that's been a profound lesson for me on... 00:47:51.265 --> 00:47:55.105 Trevor Gavin: Especially days where I wake up in the morning, and I don't wanna get 00:47:55.105 --> 00:47:56.065 Trevor Gavin: out of bed. 00:47:56.065 --> 00:47:57.425 Trevor Gavin: And I think, okay. 00:47:57.425 --> 00:48:00.385 Trevor Gavin: Let me just try and show up one more day Show up. 00:48:00.385 --> 00:48:02.225 Trevor Gavin: And get on the mat again. 00:48:02.225 --> 00:48:03.265

Lisa Nichols: That's so good. 00:48:03.265 --> 00:48:03.905 Lisa Nichols: That's so good. 00:48:03.905 --> 00:48:05.345 Lisa Nichols: I'm gonna ruminate on that. 00:48:05.345 --> 00:48:08.350 Lisa Nichols: I really love that. 00:48:08.350 --> 00:48:11.710 Lisa Nichols: When we finish, I'm gonna tell you a funny story about our son, Jordan, 00:48:11.710 --> 00:48:12.750 Lisa Nichols: that did the... 00:48:12.750 --> 00:48:14.110 Lisa Nichols: I'll tell you a funny story. 00:48:14.110 --> 00:48:16.190 Lisa Nichols: But, again, stalking you. 00:48:16.190 --> 00:48:18.030 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:48:18.030 --> 00:48:20.270 Lisa Nichols: I know that you were a huge reader. 00:48:20.270 --> 00:48:20.510 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:48:20.510 --> 00:48:24.205 Lisa Nichols: And so I wanna go through just a few of these really quick, Trevor, 00:48:24.205 --> 00:48:27.965 Lisa Nichols: for our for our listeners, and then I wanna talk about something extra. 00:48:27.965 --> 00:48:28.285 Trevor Gavin: Great. 00:48:28.285 --> 00:48:30.445 Lisa Nichols: So Cal Newport. 00:48:30.445 --> 00:48:30.925 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:48:30.925 --> 00:48:34.925 Lisa Nichols: You go, anything written by Cal Newport, I'm going to read it. 00:48:35.085 --> 00:48:35.850 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:48:35.850 --> 00:48:39.850 Lisa Nichols: So, I have I have ordered a few 00:48:40.010 --> 00:48:42.090 Lisa Nichols: of the books that you recommended. 00:48:42.090 --> 00:48:43.290 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:48:43.290 --> 00:48:44.970 Lisa Nichols: I've read Deep Work. 00:48:44.970 --> 00:48:46.090 Lisa Nichols: Great book. 00:48:46.090 --> 00:48:47.450 Lisa Nichols: Turn the Ship Around. 00:48:47.450 --> 00:48:48.010 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:48:48.010 --> 00:48:48.250 Lisa Nichols: Great. 00:48:48.250 --> 00:48:48.490 Lisa Nichols: It's a 00:48:48.490 --> 00:48:50.395 Trevor Gavin: great leadership book. 00:48:50.395 --> 00:48:52.075 Lisa Nichols: Ego is the enemy. 00:48:52.075 --> 00:48:52.475 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:48:52.475 --> 00:48:56.315 Lisa Nichols: Oh, I have not ordered that one, but that one sounds really good. 00:48:56.315 --> 00:48:57.755 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:48:57.755 --> 00:48:58.155 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:48:58.155 --> 00:49:01.515 Trevor Gavin: Those those books have been so influential for me. 00:49:01.515 --> 00:49:05.515 Trevor Gavin: And Cal Newport in particular, you know, he he contra... 00:49:05.900 --> 00:49:09.500 Trevor Gavin: In deep work, he contrasts deep work versus shallow work. 00:49:09.500 --> 00:49:13.500 Trevor Gavin: And shallow work is, is work that 00:49:13.660 --> 00:49:17.580 Trevor Gavin: we basically kinda steal, and we just iterate on a little bit. 00:49:17.580 --> 00:49:21.580 Trevor Gavin: But the people that we think about through history that have 00:49:21.585 --> 00:49:25.585 Trevor Gavin: made significant changes and advances, there's a way in 00:49:25.585 --> 00:49:28.225 Trevor Gavin: which they work that was very different. 00:49:28.225 --> 00:49:29.985 Trevor Gavin: And he talks about distractibility. 00:49:29.985 --> 00:49:33.680 Trevor Gavin: And, you know, again, in this age where I've got an iPhone, you have 00:49:33.680 --> 00:49:37.680 Trevor Gavin: a watch, you have your iPad or whatever it is, you're answering 00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:40.400 Trevor Gavin: text, you're answering Slack, you're answering email. 00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:40.960 Trevor Gavin: And it's... 00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:43.760 Trevor Gavin: For me, it's all done in the name of efficiency. 00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:46.480 Trevor Gavin: And so I think I'm winning because I'm efficient. 00:49:46.480 --> 00:49:49.345 Trevor Gavin: I'm the fastest to respond or whatever the case may be. 00:49:49.345 --> 00:49:53.345 Trevor Gavin: But I'm not actually in the business of, just efficiency. 00:49:53.745 --> 00:49:56.705 Trevor Gavin: I'm in the, business of contribution. 00:49:56.705 --> 00:50:00.625 Trevor Gavin: And I wanna make a contribution that is going to have a meaningful impact 00:50:00.625 --> 00:50:04.625 Trevor Gavin: in someone's life, whether that's a piece of software, whether that's in our context, 00:50:04.760 --> 00:50:08.760 Trevor Gavin: research to be able to help people make strategic decisions, whatever that is. 00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:13.720 Trevor Gavin: I want to make a difference and a contribution that is impactful. 00:50:13.720 --> 00:50:16.840 Trevor Gavin: And to be able to do that, especially in the world that we live 00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:20.840 Trevor Gavin: in, and I grew up just kinda pre digital memory, but I grew up 00:50:20.985 --> 00:50:24.425 Trevor Gavin: in a world filled with technology, and my kids even more so are natives 00:50:24.425 --> 00:50:25.385 Trevor Gavin: to all of this. 00:50:25.385 --> 00:50:25.865 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:50:25.865 --> 00:50:26.745 Lisa Nichols: Yes. 00:50:26.745 --> 00:50:30.745 Trevor Gavin: I have to be so intentional to carve out time, 00:50:31.970 --> 00:50:34.610 Trevor Gavin: to focus and to have deep work. 00:50:34.610 --> 00:50:38.370 Trevor Gavin: And the problem is I get into that, and my mind immediately goes into 00:50:38.370 --> 00:50:39.730 Trevor Gavin: a thousand directions. 00:50:39.730 --> 00:50:41.090 Trevor Gavin: I have to empty the dishwasher. 00:50:41.090 --> 00:50:41.970 Trevor Gavin: I have to vacuum. 00:50:41.970 --> 00:50:43.170 Trevor Gavin: I have to pick the kids up. 00:50:43.170 --> 00:50:44.895 Trevor Gavin: There's four emails waiting for me. 00:50:44.895 --> 00:50:47.935 Trevor Gavin: And so I don't get into deep work immediately and go, great. 00:50:47.935 --> 00:50:49.215 Trevor Gavin: I'm so focused. 00:50:49.215 --> 00:50:52.335 Trevor Gavin: I'm gonna go deep on what I want to and try to figure out. 00:50:52.335 --> 00:50:56.095 Trevor Gavin: I have to sort through a million different things that are going through my 00:50:56.095 --> 00:50:59.390 Trevor Gavin: head to even get to the point where I can I can settle in?

00:50:59.390 --> 00:51:03.390 Trevor Gavin: And so his work on that on deep work and then, his book 00:51:03.550 --> 00:51:05.550 Trevor Gavin: slow productivity, 00:51:05.550 --> 00:51:09.550 Trevor Gavin: was such a game changer, obsess over quality, work at a natural 00:51:09.550 --> 00:51:11.645 Trevor Gavin: pace, pick one thing. 00:51:11.645 --> 00:51:12.525 Trevor Gavin: I mean, these are... 00:51:12.525 --> 00:51:16.525 Trevor Gavin: I think these are differentiators in our economy today of trying 00:51:16.765 --> 00:51:18.845 Trevor Gavin: to go at speed and scale. 00:51:18.845 --> 00:51:22.845 Trevor Gavin: If we can do deep meaningful work that, fits within our 00:51:22.845 --> 00:51:26.845 Trevor Gavin: humanity, that doesn't compromise the things that are most important to 00:51:26.910 --> 00:51:30.750 Trevor Gavin: us, I think we'll be able to contribute in a deeply impactful way. 00:51:30.750 --> 00:51:31.150 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:51:31.150 --> 00:51:32.110 Lisa Nichols: That's so good. 00:51:32.110 --> 00:51:32.510 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:51:32.510 --> 00:51:33.790 Lisa Nichols: I ordered that one. 00:51:33.790 --> 00:51:35.070 Lisa Nichols: Slow productivity. 00:51:35.070 --> 00:51:36.270 Lisa Nichols: It should be here today. 00:51:36.270 --> 00:51:36.510 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:51:36.510 --> 00:51:38.075 Lisa Nichols: I'm looking forward to it. 00:51:38.075 --> 00:51:41.835 Lisa Nichols: Maybe you'll add something extra, the something extra book to your 00:51:41.835 --> 00:51:43.195 Trevor Gavin: I absolutely will. 00:51:43.195 --> 00:51:44.955 Trevor Gavin: I absolutely will. 00:51:44.955 --> 00:51:45.435 Lisa Nichols: Alright. 00:51:45.435 --> 00:51:47.035 Lisa Nichols: So that's a perfect segue. 00:51:47.035 --> 00:51:47.355 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:51:47.355 --> 00:51:48.635 Lisa Nichols: What do you believe, Trevor? 00:51:48.635 --> 00:51:51.830 Lisa Nichols: Is this something extra that every leader needs? 00:51:51.830 --> 00:51:55.590 Trevor Gavin: This was tough because I've listened to so much of your podcast, and I've 00:51:55.590 --> 00:51:58.310 Trevor Gavin: heard people say humility, 00:51:58.310 --> 00:52:00.150 Trevor Gavin: curiosity, a number of things. 00:52:00.150 --> 00:52:00.950 Trevor Gavin: And I go, yes. 00:52:00.950 --> 00:52:01.190 Trevor Gavin: That... 00:52:01.190 --> 00:52:02.870 Trevor Gavin: Those are all those things. 00:52:02.870 --> 00:52:06.310 Trevor Gavin: And as I was thinking about it today, I think the one that I 00:52:06.310 --> 00:52:10.310 Trevor Gavin: would would suggest as something extra would be healing. 00:52:12.915 --> 00:52:16.275 Trevor Gavin: And and maybe specifically inner healing. 00:52:16.275 --> 00:52:19.955 Trevor Gavin: I think regardless of if faith plays an important role in your life or 00:52:19.955 --> 00:52:23.955 Trevor Gavin: doesn't, the need for doing the inner work 00:52:24.180 --> 00:52:26.980 Trevor Gavin: and going on the inner journey, 00:52:26.980 --> 00:52:30.980 Trevor Gavin: separates us, from a lot and will help 00:52:30.980 --> 00:52:34.980 Trevor Gavin: us to show up holistically in all the areas of life 00:52:35.505 --> 00:52:39.425 Trevor Gavin: that demand us to do so in a healthy way that is going to 00:52:39.425 --> 00:52:41.585 Trevor Gavin: impact people for good. 00:52:41.585 --> 00:52:43.105 Lisa Nichols: That's so good. 00:52:43.105 --> 00:52:43.425 Lisa Nichols: There... 00:52:43.425 --> 00:52:47.425 Lisa Nichols: I have never had anyone say that out of four hundred plus episodes. 00:52:48.785 --> 00:52:51.990 Lisa Nichols: So that is so good, Trevor. 00:52:51.990 --> 00:52:55.430 Lisa Nichols: I think I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours and 00:52:55.430 --> 00:52:56.070 Lisa Nichols: hours.... 00:52:56.070 --> 00:52:57.510 Trevor Gavin: So much control. 00:52:57.510 --> 00:52:57.990 Lisa Nichols: Yeah. 00:52:57.990 --> 00:53:00.950 Lisa Nichols: But I I will have to do that offline. 00:53:00.950 --> 00:53:01.830 Trevor Gavin: Yes. 00:53:01.830 --> 00:53:02.975 Lisa Nichols: Thank you so much. 00:53:02.975 --> 00:53:06.975 Lisa Nichols: Thank you so much for being with me today, for sharing your journey, 00:53:07.135 --> 00:53:08.655 Lisa Nichols: for sharing your wisdom. 00:53:08.655 --> 00:53:12.655 Lisa Nichols: And, I just know it's gonna help our listeners, so I appreciate 00:53:13.135 --> 00:53:13.535 Lisa Nichols: you. 00:53:13.535 --> 00:53:13.935 Trevor Gavin: Thank you. 00:53:13.935 --> 00:53:14.495 Trevor Gavin: It's mutual. 00:53:14.495 --> 00:53:18.495 Trevor Gavin: And thank you, Lisa, for, just being you and how curious you are when 00:53:18.510 --> 00:53:22.510 Trevor Gavin: you show up and gracious you are to other people, and, and the joy 00:53:22.590 --> 00:53:26.590 Trevor Gavin: and love that you exude in, in these podcasts and the time that we've 00:53:26.670 --> 00:53:28.110 Trevor Gavin: been able to chat. 00:53:28.110 --> 00:53:31.995 Trevor Gavin: So thank you for being you and inviting me into this opportunity. 00:53:31.995 --> 00:53:33.435 Lisa Nichols: Absolutely. 00:53:33.435 --> 00:53:36.235 Lisa Nichols: Have a great rest of the day, my friend. 00:53:36.235 --> 00:53:40.235 Announcer: Something extra with Lisa Nichols is a Technology Partners production. 00:53:40.235 --> 00:53:43.355 Announcer: Copyright Technology Partners Inc twenty nineteen. 00:53:43.355 --> 00:53:47.355 Announcer: To learn more about this week's guest, check out the show notes at tpi 00:53:47.410 --> 00:53:49.650 Announcer: dot co slash podcast. 00:53:49.650 --> 00:53:52.850 Announcer: If you enjoyed this episode, consider leaving us a review. 00:53:52.850 --> 00:53:54.850 Announcer: Thank you for listening to Something Extra.