Bản chép lời đầy đủ của Declutter Your Space, Clear Your Mind  with Susan Charbonneau

is coming out now and a lot of us are kind of hiding stuff. behind closed doors and it looks like a really tidy home, but it's not organized. It doesn't make things easier. So how would you define organization term? Yeah, ⁓ in my mind and kind of the ethos of my company, I of course there's a broad range of different types of organizing companies. You have the minimalists, you have interestingly enough, there's a trend toward maximalism now as well, which is interesting. But there's a broad range, my approach takes a very realistic, you know, we all have living homes essentially. We all have evolving schedules. We all have times of the week that are better than others, you know, all of that sort of thing. Organization for me is a lot more about efficiency and simplicity and decreasing that mental load for clients and that visual clutter for clients than it certainly than it is about perfection. None of it for it from my perspective has to do with perfection. I mean, you can certainly go in and execute, you know, a lovely acrylic Box pantry with you know with cursive labels and the whole thing and maintain it as long as no one's using the pantry or you're there to reset it. But those generally aren't the lives we lead, right? And I find that I I'm grateful actually that now we we seem to be kind of turning the page from the beautiful, you know, fully curated Instagram aesthetic, which is which has its place and is lovely, but people seem to finally be pivoting away. And women in particular seem to pivot away from this idea that that's how it has to look, otherwise. They're not executing, right? That's that's the biggest piece. And that's one of the reasons I got into this industry was to really try and reflect to women in particular people. But I find a lot of my clientele, not surprisingly, are are busy women, what the reality is and that it's it's just really not realistic. And and nor, you know, unless it brings them joy to have, you know, no things ever and and to put, you know, put to put all of their time into manicuring things. And some people, you know what, to be fair. I do of course love putting things in a box, but I imagine most of the time somebody would would like to spend some of that free time, you know, doing a leisure activity or getting outside the house or whatever it might be. So my definition of organization is, you know, establishing what you need to in your life to yeah, to reduce some of that load, as I say. Something I you touched on there that I really appreciate too is systems. So I was sick this week and you know, I fell behind on laundry. Groceries didn't get ordered, like the whole world went to chaos here because I didn't have systems that didn't involve me. So I really appreciate you creating systems that work not just for that busy woman, but for the family. So that if you take the woman out of the equation, things don't fall to shit. Like literally, my husband was doing groceries yesterday. We don't have one piece of fruit for the kids. And I was like, ⁓ no. So I really appreciate saying coming up with systems that just don't look pretty, but will work even if other things start to crumble. Can we talk for a second about how much of an incredible impact that like reducing the mental load and kind of helping alleviate some of the guilt on moms that that has on your clients? Because I feel like that's a huge piece of it. Yeah, it it it is. Yeah, absolutely. And and you know, as I say, you know, that's part of the reason I started the business. I used to be, well, I I've had a kind of a lot of lives. I originally worked in organizing museum collections and exhibitions. And then in project management, which is kind of like a a natural progression. And of course, organizing project management. There's a there's a real kind of synergy there. But a lot of this was bred by, you know, when I s when I actually had my kids, I was ⁓ during the pandemic, I was on Mat Leave with my second, who was nine months when COVID hit. And my husband and I were working full-time from home, you know, both obviously, like I said, in kind of full-time demanding jobs, let's say. Our four-year-old was in virtual kindergarten and my youngest was a nine month old infant. And so we were doing the whole like, okay, work shifts, you know, like your day starts at six, mine starts at six, different sixes, you know, the whole thing. ⁓ and I was I ended up talking to a lot of colleagues who were, you know, not surprisingly very overwhelmed at how to even approach it. And this is very, you know, like high achieving, intelligent human beings, right? Particularly women, because without failure, yeah, we we pick up the ball and run with it, let's say. It's that It's that kind of, you know, as far as our mental load and kind of emotional labor is concerned, we do a lot of anticipating. And this is something that I've really discovered as I've delved into more work with clients and the psychology behind household management. Women spend a lot of time anticipating, okay, what's the next thing? He's gonna need the next size of shoes. There's a new season coming. There's always, there's always this. And you know full well that, you know, your husband is not gonna look out the window and go like, ⁓ he doesn't actually need winter boots. ⁓ like he'll be fine in the flip-flops, or he'll he'll then go out and buy boots. But you're like, but then he's not gonna be able to be out of stock and the you know, like there's all of the So it's funny because you've got the kind of actual the things that you're in and the kind of management of that, but then you've got the anticipatory like, okay, once I get through culling sneakers, now it's time to move on to the next thing that has to be ordered or prioritized and somebody's, you know, somebody's cleats broke or you know, whatever it might be. So It's funny because yeah, I mean, obviously the the idea of the mental load and the understanding of the mental

load is becoming a lot clearer. But I do see one of the greatest parts of my job is seeing that the impact of that reduction over and over again. And it gets compounded, I find, as each kind of session goes on. You know, you kinda have the first session and you feel kind of some of that weight, you know, that that weight you can actually see a person's shoulders kind of start start to loosen. And I think part of it is is even just knowing they have someone in their corner, right? Because you know yourself when you're talking to friends about any issues you're having in your life in your life, the minute you can have that conversation and have somebody be like, Yeah, I totally understand, or you know, that sounds really tough, or or I'm going through the exact same thing, you don't feel you feel infinitely better, right? So that's that's a big piece of it is that kind of recognition and actually feeling like, okay, now I see what you're doing. Let's work on this together. But it's funny because I think despite the beauty of organization, I think a lot of people, women for sure, but people in general, kind of have the the sense that okay, once you organize and you get yourself sorted out and you declutter and you kind of establish systems, then they kind of just like, you know, you just chug along and they almost kind of maintain themselves. But a big piece of this, you know, you take for example, you get sick, like like exactly like you said, you need everybody else in your household to be on board. And to ingratiate them toward those systems, right? And that's a big piece, it's a big component of my work, I find, because even if, say even if you are able to stay at home as a mom and that is your what double time job, triple time job, if you've got say three kids who are active in a variety of activities, one, just a single child that does Lego, there is no way that you can keep up. Like you could be doing that all day, every day, in addition to the, you know, obviously the meals and and the other things, the homework. But just picking objects up. It's not possible to keep up. So a big part of what I try and do is yes, work with women absolutely. But one of the most important pieces I found so far is the importance of working with the whole family and kind of presenting it when I when it when I get in and and if the of course if the if the person I'm working with the client is amenable to it, some don't want to bring in, you know, there's some just kinda okay, reset it and get rid of my stuff and and I'll kind of deal with the rest. Some are so overwhelmed that they really feel like they need a whole overhaul and they just it's i it's at that point where I don't know what to do what to start with, right? So yeah, I find certainly ingratiating kids specifically to to the process and having them help design some of their systems and some systems in the house and having really in depth conversations with the family i is has really been the only way to to be successful in this so far. And to kind of touch on that. So like when you walk into a place What's the first thing you notice about a space that tells you someone is feeling overwhelmed in their life? First thing I notice about a space, I'd say one, I mean, the person is obviously usually my first clue. I mean, not just the reach out, not the call, not the initial conversations. But when I get to the door and the emotion on the face and the, you know, the the the palm over the face or the crying that I'm kind of greeted with, that that state of overwhelm. But certainly. In a in a place where somebody is really overwhelmed, ⁓ a lot of half done projects, a lot of like, you know, I started this and then I put it down, I got interrupted, ⁓ you know, that sort of thing. A lot of things lined up on the countertop. I mean, as we all know, that is the in the kitchen, which is obviously the busiest busiest area of your home, of anybody's home, because now it serves like 19 purposes instead of one purpose. You know, you have twenty different projects or things. queued up on your countertop or not queued up, just like piled one atop the other because people see a flat space and they're in a rush or it just doesn't compute. With kids, it doesn't compute. They're just, they put it down. Like they're, they're, you're lucky they didn't lose it on the way home, you know, sort of thing. But yeah, generally it'll be, yeah, a lot of unrelated things everywhere and things in kind of Seemingly strategic piles, I would say. You're describing my my main floor right now. Especially the half done projects. Yeah. Yeah. That one really that one really got to me because I do the ADHD in me, start a ton of things. Like I have I had a book club two weeks ago where we were like beating books on top. And I haven't put beads away yet. Cause I was like, I'll come back to it. And it's just like that's been there for two weeks. And it's funny because it's like it would literally take me five minutes to put it away. Yeah. And I don't. And what's the mental load of like the it's been scratching at you that you have it. But I get it. But you you are one of many who do that. And I was gonna say as well, yes, a thousand percent the the half finished projects, that's now in my opinion, that's not even an ADHD and ADD thing anymore because I do work with clients with like neurodiversity. And then it's a different thing, right? Because you've got that going in every area of their life. every room of the house, right? It's not just like, okay, the kitchen's frenetic. That sort of situation where families are in mid fill in the blank is endemic. That's that's almost everyone that I've encountered. And I mean to be fair, obviously the people who call me are in need of help, right? They're like if something something is sideways, I need to bring you in. But again, I feel like that's just the pace of life. Whereas yeah, I mean it's ⁓ it's a very specific thing when you have clients

who ⁓ who know that it's not necessarily situational, but they have been diagnosed as neurodiverse or they know their habits and and that's a whole different facet of organizing and it honestly a really interesting one that I didn't anticipate. So it's been ⁓ Yeah, it's you know, I mean, it's been a lot more psychologically in depth and interesting than I than I expected. And I expected a lot. I thought because I love working with people and learning about people and, you know, talking about people's lives and, you know, all of that sort of thing. But, you know, I I had this misconception that certain things like ADHD, ADD, you know, people who had been diagnosed with the same disorder, their brain would work very similarly. And that has not been the case. I I've had, I've had, you know, people living in the same house both diagnosed with ADHD, AD think completely differently. They're both adults. And so you're designing systems for each of them separately. And that's the only way it's gonna work. Otherwise you're gonna get a call back and like, you know, in three months going like it's a mess again. What am I doing wrong? Right. And it's like in order to be successful, you really have to drill into the person, right? But again, that's what makes it so fun, 'cause there's no no day that's the same. You've got a jumping off point. You've got okay, so, you know, you can throw out out ideas and say, So do you feel like you never get anything done? You never finish it and a person will how do you, you know, how are you following systems? So yeah, it's it's been really fun that way. This sounds like you just described our entire business partnership that we are all like all three of us are neurodivergent, but our brains are wired so dramatically differently that like sometimes we balance each other out and sometimes we're like, You're dropping me bananas. Just stop thinking like differently than me. I mean, at the same time, Emily is thinking about us. same time, I feel like, I don't know, I want to say a third of the battle, if not half the battle, is being able to say that, right? Is being able to be like, okay, no, listen, this is a me thing, this is a you thing, you whatever it might be. As opposed to when, you know, when all the doors are closed and you're not having that dialogue, it makes life that much more difficult, right? When you're able to be open like that. And that's been, you know, that's been eye-opening as well, really, for me, because, you know, a lot of those sorts of conversations that I have with clients. I'm having really early on and you always kind of you know, you approach it very delicately, certainly, especially if someone's children might be involved. You know, it's about, hey, is it, you know, just as we're chatting here, as we're looking around, can you tell me if you have any neurodiversity in the household? You know, so so then they they can bring it up or not. Because I mean, I don't need to know. It's helpful and it's certainly I need to have a conversation with the person if you want things to be able to be, you know, as well maintained as they could be, as easy for you as they could be. But I don't have to know a diagnosis, but it's it certainly helps because then I can okay, then I can throw out things that I've known have worked before, you know? But ⁓ yeah, it's it's fascinating to me. And it's actually it's helped me with family members and ⁓ and other people that, you know, yeah, I I've been able to kind of yeah, get into brains a little easier. Now, how does physical clutter actually impact mental clarity, focus, and stress levels? Yeah. ⁓ It's so interesting. There's so much psychology on this. ⁓ I think initially I thought that with respect to the physical clutter, I I thought I I was a bit of an anomaly, especially early days before Instagram and all of that sort of thing. Thought I was a bit of an anomaly in the degree to which I I needed my external space to reflect what was going on internally. You know what I mean? I was so I found that I was so readily distracted by, you know, disorganized bits and, you know, that sort of thing. when it came to focus time. But yeah, it really does seem to be, you know, you do you do have some kind of outliers who are, you know, seemingly quite calm and and confess to being unbothered by chaos. You know, ⁓ I know where that book is. It's under that pile of and that's fine. But they really they really are outliers when it comes to, you know, who's bothered by it and just how much. I find too, one of the things is that's been really interesting is sometimes with respect to the physical clutter. A client will call me for you know for to work on their kitchen or to work on the kids' bedroom or the playroom or whatever it might be. And they think that's their, you know, and started to talk to them. They think, I can't take it anymore. Like this is my biggest pain point. If I go down to my kids' room and that toy is not in a box, I'm gonna lose it. Because, you know, we've gone through this so many times or whatever it might be. And then you get to talking and you realize. It's not actually about that toy. It's about something else in some other room that is is bothering you way more. It's your office or whatever it might be. So I think people don't well, first of all, people don't always acknowledge how much it bothers them, subconsciously or consciously, right? But I have I found on the flip side, you know, kind of in the after talking to clients whose family members didn't realize how much fill in the blank was bothering them. Then when it changed, they kind of look around and go like, How did we live like we were before? You know, because I didn't, you know what I mean? They feel this kind of like load lifted. They can find their soccer cleats, they can, you know, they can find their football, that sort of thing. And they've got, you know, a bit of mental clarity as far as, you know, what they ⁓ what next

steps they want to take. Yeah. Now, in your experience, what comes first for people? Is it life feeling chaotic or the space becoming chaotic? You know what? In my experience, I think it's It's largely spatial. I think in large part because it really does feel like, as I say, it could be even subconsciously. For a lot of people, it does feel like it's a representation of what's going on in their lives. I know myself, when things get really busy, you know, you have busy seasons of life, and whether or not it's entirely digital or, you know, objects are involved or whatever it might be, as the week kind of wears on or the month wears on, it gets busier and busier, if it's gradual enough. It's almost like ⁓ you get you get used to it gradually and it doesn't compute that it's escalating as fast as it is. But when you see that level of intensity and that kind of chaos manifested physically, it it really hits home for people, I think, a lot more quickly. Because it becomes it becomes clear visual friction in their day. They can't find their stuff. They literally are bumping into things. ⁓ and then you get into situations with seniors or people who ⁓ you know, have reduced mobility or whatever it might be. It is actually becomes a physical problem and it becomes a deterrent from them going to the kitchen to get food, like the most basic human needs, right? So yeah, I would say it definitely the physical piece is really what hits people over the head with it. It's almost as though they think they can absorb all the other stuff, you know what I mean? But then Once, yeah, once you have that visual component, as I say, that manifestation, it's like, okay, no. I wasn't making that up. You know, people people have to think that that if it's something that they're thinking in their mind, like, okay, I'm getting really busy. I think I'm getting really busy. That it's like entirely subjective and it's like, maybe it's just me who thinks this is busy. You know, you have all of these these questions in your mind, but when it's it's manifested they're in objects. There's no denying it, right? Yeah. I think that's really interesting too because You know, there's so many traditional organization methods that fail because we put it in thinking this is what it worked on Instagram. So we have to do it. We have to take in account our own lives and what works for us. You know, I have a spot where my kids can put their bags and I thought it was the perfect spot. They have not once put their bags there because it's not conducive for our life. And it was like where it showed on Pin. is gonna be the perfect one. So is that made ⁓ of course. Like if it's on the internet, then it must be real. Yeah. So is that why you like so many typical organization things? You know, people go to what's it called? Space Avers or something or st solutions. Solutions. Or they can take five or yeah. And fail. Is that why you feel like that sometimes fails more often than not? Yeah, that's a big

piece of it, certainly. I mean ⁓ there's a lot to unpack there, not surprisingly. But yes Definitely that's a a lot of the case is that, you know, you see those recommendations on Instagram pictures, whatever it might be, and a documentary and you implement it and you think, you know, cognitively, okay, yeah. Well, first of all, ⁓ for a lot of people, it's generally like, ⁓ that looks so nice and it's calm and you know, I I would feel better if that's what that space looked like and it would save me time and you know, all of that kind of machination. You don't really not surprisingly, you don't really sit and go through the steps like, is this realistic? Like, you know, of course you don't, because you don't have time to go out and even buy the bins. Like that's how you know, that's how strapped people are. It's it's this idea that, you know, we always have X number of tabs open and you know, half of them are what, like 70% processed. So you can't I I think it's a lot for clients, for people to expect themselves to have done that legwork. And I think it's a big part of why organizing has Has actually become a successful industry because it is so person-specific. One thing that we're really learning is that ⁓ you know, people have this idea, of course, I mean, because it's been kind of ⁓ marketed that way, but people have this idea that organizing is very much a one-size-fits-all. Like, okay, this is this is a bin, you put it in there. If there's too much and it won't fit, then you can't have it. It just seems very clear-cut. And Okay, but how many people are in your house? How many how many things are you comfortable having? Like there's just so many components to it. One thing just talking about solutions and going to the container store and all that, although we don't have one in Canada. God bless clients. Like God bless people who want to get organized. One of the most familiar refrains, like we're talking about common things. People will go out and they'll say, Yeah, okay, so I got, like you said, I've got my label maker. I've got the bins. I tried. I really I this is as far as I get. Like I often will show up and there'll be a stack of bins. And and the person is trying to prove to me that like they were emotionally invested. And I'm like, Of course you did. But did you know what you were storing? How much was there gonna be? Did you think about whether or not you actually wanted to see it without opening the top? Like just all of these little tiny bits, right? And then you've got you've got complications like you got kids in your house. Can your kids read? Are we labeling it? Are we putting a picture on it? Like there there's so many components to it, right? Yeah. I mean, kids can be really funny. And you talk about obviously the different different inner workings of brains and you talk about differences in ADHD brains, but kids, given the development and the underdevelopment, the stages of development of their brains, the diversity in the

way kids think is extraordinary. I mean, it's funny because Even for my own kids, they each have their own systems. Like my my youngest, he's a dropper. So I just give him big bins. I'm like, dude, if it makes it into that, they're like, we're good. You know what I mean? Whereas my other my other son, like, he's very organized and likes to eat everything to be in a t tight little spot, but he doesn't have many things. Right. So it's funny because it's like yes, I get they're both my child. You know, I get that my life would probably be or you could make the argument my life would be easier if they both did the same thing. But I promise you it won't be because they're not gonna do it. You know what I mean? Then I'm chasing and going, why didn't I why won't they do this? And then the biggest piece of it doesn't become about the disorganization anymore. It becomes about, why won't my children listen? Why don't they wanna help? Do you know what I mean? And then it becomes this like snowball rolling down a hill and before you know it you're having like parenting anxiety and you know, all of this stuff. So yeah, I d I would say, you know, to to get back to your original question. Yeah, it's that lack of appreciation that you really do need to individualize things. And absolutely you can take away from certain methods. But one thing I try and reiterate too is that you should never ever feel like a prisoner to your own systems. Because a lot of people, you know, feel like but then I'm gonna have to and they're so self deprecating when they like don't And like, ⁓ my God, this this week got out of control and I'm gonna have to spend all Sunday putting things away or whatever it might be. And it's like, well, you got to Wednesday. You know, like let's let's celebrate your successes, right? So I I think, yeah, I would love it if it was a little more well recognized, how ⁓ yeah, how personal it is. And that's it too, not just kids, but like meeting yourself where you're at. Like I hear what you're saying, where it's just like you put all these systems in and we're gonna hang our coats up every night. We've never hung coats up. Like we need the hook. I will make it to a hook. I will never to a hanger. And that is just where it's gonna be. And I can say it. And so finally we just we bit the bullet and we just put up more hooks for all of us kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. It's is it as aesthetically pleasing? No, but it's not also on the banister. It's not on the ground. So we're like baby stepping our way up. And that's okay. Absolutely. That's where we were at it. Absolutely. You know, you talked about ⁓ especially a lot of working women are coming to for your services. How can organizing a space directly influence someone's productivity or professional ex professional success? Yeah, this is for me, this is a really huge piece of it. You know, as I alluded to during COVID, just trying to well, yeah, certainly get myself and my house and my husband organized, my kids organized, but also trying to do the same thing for colleagues who are truly, really. It wasn't even really about productivity per se anymore. They were just trying to at that point, they were just trying to get through the day, the full business day, right? So I mean, I found some of even just the small systems that I was able to implement, the kind of the repeat habits and the kind of, yeah, the regular routines and that sort of thing, you know, yes, certainly reduced the mental load, made it so they could focus on something else. But I will say, kind of on a larger scale, some of the biggest differences I've seen with clients is when I've been able to work in their home office. Home office or office office. Home office in large part because, you know, obviously, especially if you're like if you're ⁓ sole proprietorship or whatever it might be, every single minute feels like it counts. Every 30 seconds feels like it counts. If you're spending 20 minutes looking for a single file and then you don't find it, not only is it infuriating, but that's productivity loss, obviously a hit to your profit margin. That's time you can't give it. That's all of that machination then like. My goodness, should have been more organized. And the whole, you know, the psychological spiral that goes with that. When you have predictability in your ability to find things, and when you streamline those procedures and make it so much easier on yourself to find things, you have more time. Of course, it's just like a physical space. You have more time to think about things that actually need your focus, growing your business or and things where you never mind, things where you want to spend your time, right? And then that feeds into your. psychology, your mental health, like all the things, right? So that's one thing, you know, definitely you can find efficiencies, right? And productivity and buying you time back, of course, is good for your business. But, you know, on a larger level, I've worked with some small businesses as well. And then when you when you multiply that across X number of employees, then, you know, the dividends are kind of endless. So yeah. I feel even like, you know, I had mentioned today, I went into my office and I cleaned up. I had had receipts on my desk. I had had like a whole bunch of stuff on my desk. And I I couldn't even see my desk at that point. So today I like went through it. I spent about 15, it only took me 15 minutes. And I cleaned up my desk and I organized everything. And then I sat there and I actually had place to write and to brainstorm. And because I actually had just the physical space to do it, I then came up with a to-do list of everything I wanted to get done for the day. So physically I cleaned up this and then mentally I cleaned up the space. And so they do go really hand in hand together. Because like had I not had the space to put out my to-do list, I wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't have seen everything I had to do.

It would have been mentally in my mind. And then I wouldn't have been sleeping. So it really is another circle that goes round and round. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Kudos to you. Like, and the nice thing is too, it's nice when you can capitalize on those wins. Like I kind of try and there's some days where I try and front load. ⁓ I I I talk to clients about this as well. I like to start actually one of the usually the last Monday, Monday or Tuesday, because I give myself give myself some grace in case something else happens on Monday. I set a reminder in my calendar to do a win list, what I call a win list, which is probably something you've seen on Instagram or whatever. Stuff that you did, right? Because like, I mean, don't get me wrong, I will, I live and die by the to-do list. Not surprisingly, I'm a color coder. I do all the things. There's tiers of lists. One thing I realized I was never doing, you know, especially as a parent, you're blowing through all of these things. Check, check, check. And don't get me wrong, I love the satisfaction of either disappearing in tasks or taking a ruler, which I still actually do and drawing a pen line through it because there's something more satisfying about it. But what I don't do is that piece where, yeah, okay, you did all this. And then reflecting back and saying, Because ⁓ you know, certain certain times of the week are hard. Monday is it's difficult for that context switch and because you're like, okay, we've got I've got all this stuff to do the rest of the week. So I like to kind of try and start it off by going like, okay, but what have we accomplished so far? Because it's it's very easy to be like and to be d like daunted by what's ahead, right? But when you can look back and go, ⁓ yeah, but look at this win list back here. And you know, honestly, sometimes for me it's like, you know, not to use kind of a cliche, but it's like finally made that dentist appointment. Or you know what like it's a little thing. It took four minutes, but it's been on the E list for like three months and it's now become ⁓ to it's gotten to a spot in my head where it's fifteen percent of my waking time. Cause it keeps, you know, running through my head. So I guess where I'm where I'm trying to go with that is yes, the to-do list, the clarity, absolutely. ⁓ but a big piece of that and a big piece of kind of sustained organization and being able to maintain your space and know yourself. Is knowing that you need that continued motivation. Because if you don't keep seeing those wins and you don't keep appreciating those wins, then why would you keep doing it? It's like going to the gym, right? And when you fall off, you don't remember how it's great. It's it's it's that whole thing. And I swear it that's an really another reason why organizing has become an industry because we can come in and say, trust me, you know, believe me. I just left somebody else's house and they did this and it's great. You know, t it gets you

back to the gym, so to speak. And then you start lifting the weights and you're like, I forgot how awesome this was. It's that whole machinery, right? But I think I don't think I know we don't spend near enough time celebrating the things that we actually achieve and the improvements that we make. Because I can tell you that they snowball into more and more improvements, right? And that's where I've seen kind of the best success is getting those calls from people saying, ⁓ my God, now I have space to start that craft business. Now, you know, that sort of thing. And they're so excited by the potential, right? And that's again like one of the best parts of the job. Absolutely. I I really like the win list thing and we and we don't do it enough. Like I was saying to this week, I had a huge to do list of so many things that get done, especially while sick. And I'm sitting here on the Friday and I I didn't give myself, you know, a kudos. And it's true. Like I thought through it and it was a really successful week. So I really do appreciate you giving that gentle nudge to people that it's like, hey, yeah, and it's and it's okay if you want to celebrate your wins. Like it's not bragging. You're doing it even internally. So I I love that. Exactly. So thank you. ⁓ my gosh. How do emotions and attachments to belongings get in the way of creating functional systems? And I feel like it's funny because you said a lot of your you know you started a lot during COVID. And that's when Marie Kondo had her shining moment of like, this is bringing. So like, how does how do you feel about that? Yeah, it's it's tricky. I mean, certainly, you know, God, I love a good fold. It's funny. But I'm not a minimalist. And again, I I am kind of a devout follower of the idea that you shouldn't feel like a prisoner to your own organization, right? You know, if you kind of go by the if it doesn't spark joy, get rid of it, then what are you owning? And if that's a lot of pressure. Like what if you get rid of something and you realize the next day, wait a minute, no, I really love that. You know what I mean? It's a it's a lot of pressure. So yeah, it's I wouldn't say, let's see, I wouldn't say gets in the way necessarily, but it does become more difficult in that If you if you are in a situation where you have a lot of sentimental items, of course the organizational process is is going to be slower and a little bit trickier because the decision making is that much harder, right? And it becomes even more difficult when you have one person in the house, say one spouse who is very sentimental and another spouse who is the polar opposite. That's one of the most interesting situations and and and certainly, yeah, a challenging situation. But again, it's It's really about drilling down and having those in-depth conversations, taking the time to have those in-depth conversations with people about why they are the way they are and and how we can meet in the middle. I I think another one of

those kind of unexpected pieces of this work is the number of times that you're kind of just a third party. Like you kind of come in and like I don't have any buy-in to your side, to his side. Like I'm just here, like how can I help with this? Do you know what I mean? And I would say that even in situations where it's a child bringing it in for a parent who needs to downsize, or it's a wife bringing it in for a husband or kids or whatever it might be, even though the the I've been recruited by, you know, mom or whomever it might be, I'm always very surprised at the fact that, you know, if I approach it the right way, that the potentially offended party, the sentimentalist or the whomever it might be. usually gets on board ⁓ you know pretty wholeheartedly if you can have that conversation and say, well, listen, you know, obviously you're in a relationship, be it mother, child, whatever it might be, this is really difficult for, you know, for this side of the relationship. Something else is really difficult for another side of the relationship. I know you both want to be happy, you know? So how can I and you kind of get to a point where you start to try and explain things in alternate ways from the other person's point of view, but completely, you know, without emotion. Just, you know, completely kind of ⁓ yeah, subjectively or pardon me, yeah, subjectively. ⁓ and it it really helps break down that, okay, well what if we keep what if we kept one of the the teapots instead of six of the teapots? Like if you had to pick one, but you know what? Usually what I'll do if we have six teapots, if you had to pick four of the teapots, you know what I mean? Like just because you've gotta again, you've got to get a win. Sometimes you you might run into a problem where y y you all almost have one person in the relationship or in the household saying, Can you just pull up a bin? Can we just dump it all in? And you know what I mean? I'm like, sure, we could. I mean, I won't do that ethically, but we could, you could. I said, but I promise you you'll have a house that's full and you will have lost, I don't know, thousands of dollars because the person will need to replace the things that have been tossed. So you know what I mean? How do you want this to play out? Right. So yeah, sentimentalism, God, it's a huge piece, but it's funny because I think sometimes, you know, children, parents, whatever it might be, the sentimentalist will hold on to something just I hesitate to say despite the other person, but because it because they're fighting back, you know? It's like, no, I want it this way. They why shouldn't I have it this way? It's you know, I think that's a human nature thing, right? Sure. Yeah. So and it's funny 'cause like you basically described my household. Like I'm very much a sentimental, like keeping it. Whereas my husband absolutely not. And the chaos of the house was causing him a bit a bit of anxiety. But n then he as, you know, kids grow up and stuff, I think his soul just kept dying the more kids we had and like the easier we got. So now his office is kind of his zone. He has all his dungeons and dragons stuff there. He has that. So as long as he has his office and he also knows not to throw out anything. without like asking me because that it causes me anxiety knowing he might like one time he threw out a space rack and I got it still haunts me. This is like two years into our marriage. We have not to throw out anything without like discussing it. And we've kind of come to that, you know, realization that this is how it's gonna work. And it is. Yeah, yeah. And and then he'll talk to me, tell ya, it's broken. And I'm like, all right. Now having the conversation, right? And that's that's that's a weird conversations are huge. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, what is your approach to helping someone who feels completely overwhelmed and doesn't know where to start? I think a lot of people, you know, do hit that where they see the toy room and there's just a million toys. And like I myself, we're having a garage sale the day after we get back from our trip just because that's when our big neighborhood cart or garage sale is. But it's it's really hard for me to look at the toy room because and this is I know you're gonna think I'm crazy and that's okay. I'm like, what if our grandkids want to play with it? And Jordan's like, Dalika, our grandkids, honey, not always. Our parents have our toys, right? So I've been trying to like find the balance. So I don't know where to start. So you me as a study, I guess. I do not think you're crazy, first and foremost. no, that happens all the time, no matter what phase of parenthood you're in. ⁓ I I've had people, yes, with infants who are like, I don't want to get rid of this lock because what if one day? And it's like, okay, we can do that, but you can only keep so many of them unless you want a storage locker. And you know, like then you talk about the logistics, right? No, I think that's I think that's perfectly reasonable. Unfortunately, I think we're in a a situation. Well, yeah, it's unfortunate, where things certainly from our kids now, their childhood won't last Anywhere near as long as as our stuff did, for sure. And be usable still. But no, it's it's it's not crazy, it's not silly. As far as the approach to people who are totally overwhelmed and don't know where to start, ⁓ yeah, I would say the first piece. I mean, and of course, you you read the client, you try and get a sense of yeah, their comfort zone. And so some people are are much more comfortable like opening up and being personal, and they understand it's a personal thing from the beginning. Some people are kind of reluctant to do so. Some people like to kind of have a bit more of a hands off approach and just kind of get into the mechanics and and they want you to h implement systems but a bit more from a distance. And it's kinda so organizing again, it's ⁓ you know, it really isn't a one

size fits all. So I kind of try and get a read on, okay, well, how deep does this person want me to go? What's their comfort level? And then I guess that kind of the second step would really be that piece of like validation, validating their feelings. You know, certainly assuring them that they're not crazy because I have yet to have a even mildly crazy client. And then yeah, I I would say really trying to focus on a single thing, a single large thing, which is what's your goal? What's your goal? And sometimes that getting to the goal, you know, takes a little while and that they think it's like I alluded to, they think it's one thing, but it's really not that thing. It's something else. There's something else that's like really bothering them. It's like it's it's like when someone, you know, it's the straw that breaks the camel's back. When someone has a nervous breakdown about one thing, it's like it's no, it's the thing from Tuesday. It's not about that thing. It's this this thing. Right. So so I try and have that kind of that conversation with them. And sometimes, yeah, absolutely. They hit the nail on the head and they they absolutely know what their goal is. And then, you know, I just approach it for myself and with them in the those kind of bite-sized digestible ways, you know, to make it okay. So that's your goal. Great. I know you're totally overwhelmed. I see this all the I've seen this regularly. And I can promise you that if we're able to go through the appropriate steps, that we're gonna get to a better place. And we'll make sure we get to a place that you're much happier. And I find that usually takes the pressure down the room. It's like like I said, really I think people just feel like, you know, they need to be seen sometimes. And especially, I mean, for myself, speaking for myself, for the majority of clients, I I find seniors are definitely the same way and that, you know, you could be the only person that they see. For three, four days. You're the only person that, you know, their only appointment, whatever it might be. And it's ⁓ that's a big piece of it. Yeah. Okay. So now we've organized our house. Everything is great. It's beautiful. How do you help clients maintain their systems once the initial organization work is done? Yeah. So the beauty piece of this, as you've heard we kind of, you know, drill into as we've been chatting, is ⁓ yeah, it's setting them up for success, right? Is figuring out, okay, well, what is gonna work and really trying to kind of, yeah, brainstorm and and crowdsource source those ideas with the people who are going to be doing the actual thing. So I feel like if you've done that job well, then, you know, a large part of the maintenance is done. If the person is able to hold true to saying, yeah, I can follow systems. And yeah, I think I'd be able to do that twice a week and then we could do a reset on a Sunday or about within reason, of course. And of course if they have reasonable expectations. Nothing's perfect. You know, you're not perfect, like life gets in the way, somebody goes in the hospital, any number of things can happen, right? So you kind of come back from that. So that's a big part of the maintenance piece is is the way you set up the systems, the way you find out what's gonna work. Another piece of it, of course, ingratiating everybody in the house to take part in it and and making them understand why they should. And I think well, I know a big part of my life right now is ⁓ teaching my kids to observe things, like to just look around. Like, especially my ten year old, right? It's like, just look around and figure out what needs to be done. Like I shouldn't need to tell you to go pick up the thing. There's wrappers. Look around, see, like what would I do if I and to be fair, I get it. You have to really hold them by the hand. And yes, there's a lot of reminding and all of that sort of stuff. But if you're able to successfully kind of ingratiate the whole family that way, you know, that's that's the biggest hope, right? 'Cause like I said, you c as a single person you can't keep up. And for situations that are What's the word looking for? I wouldn't say intense isn't quite the right word, but for extra busy households, say people with five busy kids, parents both work shift work, all the kids are in some sort of extracurricular and the season is just about to change. They're gonna change shoes, there's growth spurts, there's boys, there's girls, there's stuff everywhere. I ⁓ actually offer and a lot of organizers do, offer maintenance services. So every three months you go in and you're like, Listen, let's do a reset, you know? So it it takes a little bit of a pressure off and it's pretty quick, right? Because the systems are set up. It's really, it's really almost a a tidy up, right? I mean, it's like, okay, is this, ⁓ maybe let's tweak this because this I can see this this shoe situation isn't quite working out for fill in the blank. Let's tweak this and make it better so it actually works for him. Yeah. And that's, you know, that that's really just the only way to do it in certain situations. Because as I say, you know, sometimes life just won't allow for it. So, yeah, a lot of options for maintenance. Having this conversation, I just read something on Instagram too. It's like, imagine how successful you'd be if you too had a wife at home. So you're kind of like that wife that comes in and like helps support. And so I really appreciate that because it's true. Like oftentimes, even even you've mentioned it a few times, the shoe transformation, like when you have to switch over the sizes and spring to summer and all of that. That mentally is exhausting and seeing what you have to do and what you have to get for one child. For one and then it's exhausting. That's a thing for for like mine too. So like my oldest daughter, her clothes I'm then putting into a bin for my next daughter. And then my daughter my other daughters,

then I'm getting rid of that stuff because I don't have another girl to put it through. So I'm transferring and I'm purging. And then my son, I'm purging, and he doesn't have so it It's just it is a mental load. So I appreciate the three month reset. But the system saying three month reset, kind of go into it, take a day, and just do it. Yeah, that's it. Now to close it off, if someone only changed one thing in their home today to improve their overall sense of control, what would you recommend? Ooh, fantastic question. One thing one thing in their home today. Their overall sense of control. Let it go. Let it go. Yeah, right. If they only changed one thing, I would say figure out, and and again, this is difficult when you're in it, when you're the parent, figure out how to get your whole household involved. Figure out how to get your whole household involved because that's gonna pay dividends like over time. That's gonna compound and that's gonna, you know, buy you that mental space back and give you that reassurance. And also Help everyone else in your house appreciate and realize again, even subconsciously, how much you're actually doing. Because when they have to do it themselves, when my 10 year old started doing his, you know, hockey laundry, all of a sudden he was like, You do this how many times a week? That's just it makes a big difference. I mean, you know, and that's to be fair, that one's a little pie in the sky. I get it. That's that's less attainable. I would say if you had to pick, you know, another, let's say, micro more achievable thing, think about everything you're bringing in. Think about everything you're bringing in. And I don't, again, I don't get really intense with the like one in, one out. And because I feel like that's a lot of stress. Unless you're having a real shopping problem or you know what I mean. ⁓ like only buy as many hangers as you've got. Like again, I feel like there's just a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure, especially when it's like four seasons at once. Whatever's going on in Ontario. Yeah, I would say, yeah, just think about what you're bringing in because I I've checked myself at the door several times after visits to the dollar store or whatever. I'm like, what is this even? Like, I don't know why I thought that's my husband's like, I've never met someone who could spend as much money at Dollar Ram as can. I like, Thank you. And he's like, not a compliment. ⁓ my God, it's it's unreal, right? And I swear, and I mean it this is not to let everybody in the world off the hook, but it's doesn't have a It doesn't have everything to do with you. People take ownership of like, why do I spend? Or some people do or whatever. No, it's it's really a situational thing. ⁓ and you you think it's like IKEA, right? You think you go in there, you're like, It's a dollar. It's two ball it's two dollars, it's two fifty. And you get to the till, it's like three hundred bucks. You're like, How did I I don't? You're like, Well, you picked up a carpet on the way. So yeah, it's ⁓ it's it's a it the bringing stuff in is a big one and and like I said, which is why, you know The prime and the ordering and the dropping it, you know, at the door has become has had such an impact. This is fantastic. I've absolutely loved this conversation. ⁓ you too guys. As you're talking about all of the like what you're bringing in, as silly as it sounds, my best secret so far has been having like a secret cart that I don't actually buy anything from. Just stuff that sits there that I know I have no use for. But when you get into that like late night whatever session of your brain's turned on and you need to shut it down, I've got a secret cart that will never ever see the light of day on purpose. So good. I support that wholeheartedly. Do you know what I do? Because one of my weaknesses, I'm not a big social media girl, but one of my weaknesses is Facebook Marketplace because I go on there to buy client storage solutions. And like a little vintage thing, a thing, I think, to just like fill out a room or whatever it might be. And before you know it, I'm like, ⁓ it's five bucks. It's ten bucks. ⁓ that would be so great for here, there, and everywhere. I have so many saved things. And it's just the process of doing this. I might as well have bought it. I don't ever need to own it. There's something so silly about the tactility of doing that. That is a great idea in a cart, like a yeah, sport check or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So no, thank you so much for this. This has been an incredible conversation. And I feel like just being able to have these conversations helped reduce the mental load and some of the guilt over the fact that we're all surrounded by boxes and packages and Legos. I mean, I don't know how many Barbie shoes my vacuum has swept up. We won't talk about that one. But before we let you go, can you tell everyone where to find you online? ⁓ yeah. Yes. So you can find me at thestreamlined. Space.ca and I am at the Streamlined Space on Facebook and Instagram. Wonderful. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us. And thank you to everyone who has listened today. We will catch you on the next episode of Let's Network the Podcast.