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just get the credit that you deserve so Laura Tracey: And it changes the dynamic of how you're presenting it. Now everyone's on their screen versus being able to watch it. Sheeba: Yeah, you lose the intimacy of everything, right? And then, so the real issue in hindsight, as I was looking at it from an adult perspective was this is where we go back into our former episode of communication and now assumption because I'm assuming because I gave the responsibility to someone that they would execute it and deliver it. as I would need. And then I figured in their mind, once they sent me the link, here's the YouTube link, now you're gonna play it, I'm done with my job. So we have, it's like a two-fold problem. There's the assumption, the barrier of communication where, once again, where we've said in the past, we have to... Laura Tracey: Mm-hmm. Sheeba: not generalize anymore. We have to list it step by step. So obviously there were gaps, but the lesson that I learned was obviously being more specific in what I needed to get done. I, but I, what I know is what bothered me the most is, and this will be a great segue into our episode today is the No One Told Me. Laura Tracey: I was waiting for you to share that that was going to come up because I was like, that's the whole crutch of the fact that yes, maybe there is the assumption that it will be shared on smart TVs or web browsers or whatever fancy technology that we're not. But then that's, that's the crucial part was not forgetting the laptop, but the, didn't tell me to bring it. Sheeba: you didn't tell me to bring it. And which is not just common in that one specific moment. It's very common in general for people to just say that, say, well, no one told me. And it's an easy avoidance of ownership and responsibility. And which then shifts the blame not on them, but then the person that Laura Tracey: Mm-hmm. And I think the bigger, sorry, go ahead. Sheeba: gave you the assignment, right? Because what I ended up doing was I ended up starting to think like, wait, what did I do? Obviously, yes, there was a part on me that I wasn't clear on, but it was really quick to say, well, I did what you wanted me to, that was it. Laura Tracey: Hmm? Well, I think that brought up what the discussion was that you and I were having off camera, off podcasts, whatever we call this but was the bigger picture of how many times we hear that from parents that we work with or teachers that we see where there's been a growing trend over time, especially with young adults and teenagers who was the expectation is learning independence and trying to teach responsibility, but have they have come accustomed to just being told what to do all the time to the point of there's so much reliance on somebody else to tell them to do something that we're not thinking through and having critical thinking on. And so then the bigger picture going up in that tree we talked about, what's the bigger picture? Are we now creating individuals who don't have critical thinking and are just going to sit and wait to be told to do things? Sheeba: you Right? Laura Tracey: And what's the long-term picture of that coming to look like? Sheeba: It's that critical thinking part and which goes into what are we as parents, adults, How are we hindering our young people from this critical thinking piece? Laura Tracey: Hmm? mean, ⁓ I know parents teachers want kids to be great critical thinkers and nothing that's being done is being done ⁓ as a way ⁓ cause barriers later. just ⁓ naturally. So like we're thinking about critical thinking, it's that idea of being able to think through a situation, being able to solve a problem, figure out solutions. ⁓ Sheeba: Right. Laura Tracey: take initiative. You there's a lot of those behaviors that we assume each other is capable of doing. But then when we provide lots of reminders and we start to what we're kind of generalizing the term over accommodating, that's when we're starting to see these moments of, you just didn't tell me to do it. What? Like you are capable to do it. So the expectation is that. ⁓ Sheeba: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. You didn't, ⁓ not able to think the things through all the steps that are required to get a job done. ⁓ over accommodating, I actually read an article today, the word over accommodating is also synonymous with like over parenting. You know, it kind of goes hand in hand because for the part, we Laura Tracey: Mmm. Sheeba: have every good intention to assist our child in a task, a situation to be successful. But the problem is, is when we're overdoing it, we're stepping in at every second because we don't want them to be uncomfortable. We are trying to ⁓ prevent a tantrum or an emotional breakdown. We just want things to always go smoothly. So we're Laura Tracey: Mm-hmm. Sheeba: just trying to maintain the peace consistently and maybe helicoptering parent, always watching to see what's gonna happen and how it's gonna happen. So then you jump in when your child is in the playground and another child pushes your kid. And instead of letting them figure it out, parents are jumping right in. to solve the problem. Laura Tracey: Well, it's to, you know, the observation I have with that, and this is again from parents and from teachers and adults in general, is we don't, even myself, like you don't want your kids and the kids in your life to feel discomfort and pain. So it does become very protective. But then there's that fine line of, well, where are we providing guidance and where do we provide support? And then where are we going kind of maybe too far past that? And then what is that? Because in the moment, Sheeba: Mm-hmm. Laura Tracey: when you're stepping in, like you don't want your child to, you know, have a disagreement with a kid or you want to avoid the tantrum or you just want to get out of the house quickly. And so you just do everything or tell your kids to do everything because it's avoiding the discomfort that will come from

whatever that will look like without thinking about long-term impact of that behavior and that, and that support. And it's totally appropriate to be doing those things. But at some point, we talk about like the word scaffolding. We build up support and then you wanna take it away as the child gains independence. But if we constantly leave the support up there, there's never gonna be any independence. And that's a conversation I've had a lot. It's like, ⁓ well, I'm afraid that they'll get hurt. Well, they probably will get hurt, but whether it's emotionally or... Sheeba: Mm-hmm. How will they learn? Right. Hi friends, welcome to Growing Forward with the Salty Psyches where Sheeba Abraham and two friends who are school psychologists talking about kids, mental health, education, and all the real stuff that comes with it. We bring experience, heart, and honest conversations. No perfect formulas, no sugar coating, just real talk with a little spice. Whether you're raising kids, working with them, or just trying to figure out human behavior, you're in the right place. Laura Tracey: Laura Tracy. Sheeba: Mm-hmm. Laura Tracey: they have to sit out of practice because they forgot to bring their uniform to school, you know, those are, there's discomfort and research has actually shown that the greatest memory and discomfort comes from that those moments of those natural consequences that come out of that. Sheeba: Right. And it's like, if you're never taught or it's never modeled, once again, we go back to modeling, how to think a task through all the way through from what you need, what you need to do to get it complete and then taking ownership of it. That's when we default to our excuses and then like, ⁓ what's the problem? Think of us as your friends who happen to know a little something about psychology. Let's grow forward together. Laura Tracey: Thank Sheeba: Hi, Laura. Laura Tracey: Hi, Sheba. Sheeba: How are you, my friend? Laura Tracey: I'm good, how are you doing? Sheeba: Not so bad. It's Monday and here we are recording our, I believe, seventh or eighth episode. I think more so because naturally, like you said, we want to protect our kids. It's to what level are we willing for them to get uncomfortable and figure it out on their own. Laura Tracey: I'd like to say it's our seventh or eighth episode. However, it's probably like our 15th recording since we've had third recording before. So, slowly becoming, you know, a little bit more proficient, but it's all good. Sheeba: It's very true! Laura Tracey: ⁓ So what do you, like let's kind of break it down very systemically, like instead of kind of talking really abstract, what does it look like to constantly be over accommodating? Sheeba: Slow and steady. It's all about progress, not perfection. Laura Tracey: Hashtag growing forward. Sheeba: There we are. Laura Tracey: So speaking of growing forward, we start every episode with our growing forward moments. It's the last time we talked. Growing forward is our idea of progress, not perfection, constantly trying to improve, also tying that into our business where we follow our families and grow forward with them through their educational journeys. But growing forward also is people. So we like to start our episodes for our new listeners that with our Sheeba: So let's look at when really young. Child encounters a and immediately the steps in to resolve it because we're not going to ask you how to resolve it. We're not going to get any input from the child. Laura Tracey: own growing forward moments that we've had within the last time we've spoken. So Sheeba you want to take it with your growing forward moment? Sheeba: My growing forward moment. I was driving yesterday and I had a really good thought that came to my head. I'm like, ⁓ this is my growing forward moment, but I will tell you the truth. I do not remember it. Welcome to my life, guys. However, I do want to say that we are incorporating more of the growing forward phrase, mantra. We're just gonna fix the problem. So the lesson that's taken from the child is when things get difficult, when it gets hard, someone else is gonna step in and they're gonna take care of the problem for me. And then time, what does that teach the child? I can't solve problems independently. Someone else is gonna do it for me. So then eventually what happens? They lack the ability ⁓ not just in this house, I do have friends that are now incorporating it in their households and I love it because it's like, it's like momentous, they're taking something that's happening within their house. If their kids are doing something, mostly positive, like whether they're getting dressed early and ready for school on time or to problem solve, to critically think of how to get the job done. Mommy's gonna come help me anyway, so I'm just gonna sit here and wait for her. Laura Tracey: Yeah. would add to you, it's not like this just happens after first time, because obviously there's going to be situations and times where as a parent or as a teacher or as an aunt, as an uncle, you're going to just kind of swoop in and take care of a situation. But this is like, anytime you a behavior, repeated, repeated, repeated, like every single time. And then what develops is almost what we would call it's like learned helplessness. Like, why should I bother trying if somebody else is going to do it for me? ⁓ Sheeba: taking a really hard lesson of friendships and how it turns out and how to navigate that with your kids, everything is growing forward. It's a lesson learned. So I'm really loving how people are picking up on that. So yay, yay us. Yes. Laura Tracey: I mean, that's what we want. We want people to up on the idea, but then start to implement it. know, like that's, that's the movement. That's where change happens. And it'd a small part of that and help people change and move and grow forward themselves. I love it. Yay. ⁓ Sheeba: Mm-hmm. Laura Tracey: You know, when there's lots of over

three direction, then you learn just to wait for instruction instead of taking the initiative. So then you avoid the initiation or starting it. And then, you know, kids start to also doubt their own ability to do it anyway, because if I can't do it, maybe there's a reason I can't, or I don't know how, because I never been given those opportunities. So it just becomes like over time. Sheeba: Mm-hmm. Yay. How about yourself? What's your growing forward moment? Laura Tracey: So my growing forward moment, I got some news that was probably not the best news and I tend to like ⁓ in it, right? You know, when you get bad news, you want to just be in it. And a friend of mine has been helping me kind of get through that and her analogy is to get up in a tree and to look at it from a big picture. And I have a really hard time still doing that without like, hey, get in your tree and look at it. And so I love the analogy of that, but That's the longevity of what that can turn into. Sheeba: So what would some of these, let's say, what would it look like at home? What are some examples that we would see at home that wouldn't allow children to develop these skills? Laura Tracey: Okay. That's a great question because that's where we just need to go in terms of how do we recognize it in ourselves and what sort of things to do right away. So my first was we've already said modeling, ⁓ showing to solve a problem and engaging your child in that problem solving process. ⁓ if like the example of getting ready to go to sports, that's something a lot of parents do on a day-to-day basis is getting the kids out the door for an activity. recently I was doing that on my own and it was like after the fact where I'm like, ⁓ yeah, like this problem isn't about me. It's not even in my control and there's nothing I can do about it other than just figure it out and recover and reframe it. So my growing forward moment is just climbing up in the tree and being able to look at the problem from all different angles and just being like, ⁓ wow, gotta move on. Sheeba: ⁓ Right. Mm-hmm. I really love that. I love how get up in the tree and look at it from above. Because it's not about you, right? Laura Tracey: So instead of like you getting ready and just as the mom or the dad having like their water bottle and their snack and their uniform and their cleats and X, Y, and Z to go and you're responsible, kid starts to learn, mom takes care of it, whatever. Or instead of saying things like, do you have your cleats? Do you have your uniform? And they just have to go procedurally, just shifting that and saying, what do you need for practice today? Because even that shift and reframe of how you ask, Yeah. Like get yourself. And the analogy, like using it, that analogy or that metaphor of when you're in the problem, you can't figure it out when you're, when you're in it. So you have to visualize yourself above it so you can see the different angles around it. And really it's, a really great strategy. I, so mine was literally same thing as you. Sheeba: Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Laura Tracey: it's still gonna accomplish the task, but it's shifting how your child's gonna think about it. So instead of just saying, do I have my cleats? Check, yep. Do I have my uniform? Check. It puts responsibility back on the kid to say, well, what do I need? And then if they're forgetting things, help them through that. So if they go and gather their cleats and their uniform, but they forgot their water bottle, hey, is there something else you might need? Like, what do you need when you're on the side of the field when it's hot? ⁓ my water, okay. And then they start to... I, it happened and I thought I was like, ⁓ that was a growing forward moment. And I can't wait to share it on the podcast. But yeah, I hope, I hope that that helps somebody too with that visualization, but that was mine. Sheeba: Yeah. I hope to use that too one day. I mean, I hope I remember that if I'm ever in a predicament. Well, thank you for sharing that. It's not easy going through hard things. Laura Tracey: practice that sort of independent thinking in a very simple, simple day-to-day task. Let's go forward together. It's life though, right? Life is hard. Right, right. And that's a hard lesson to learn in general is like life is kind of hard and you don't get a manual when you turn 18 of how to be an adult and you don't get a manual when you turn 40 about how to be an adult. a manual when you turn 50 about how to be an adult. It's just. Sheeba: Mm-hmm. especially when we have no control over it. There's a lot of books out there though. are a lot of books out there that help you how to be a parent. These are the things to do. But when you're in the thick of it, none of that matters. Laura Tracey: we'll. also just being able to provide opportunities on a day to day where they're making their own choices and decisions. And so instead of just laying out what they're gonna wear, again, depends on the age. A four year old, you're gonna want to probably lay out the appropriate clothes to wear, but maybe give them the choice of like their options. We've talked about in communication too. Yeah, but as they get older, like taking some of those things away and allowing them like. You know what else is out there? Podcasts like ours. So let's talk about that. our episode today that we thought would be really great to help parents when they're in the thick of it is ⁓ that from a personal experience that you and Sheeba: Those are out there. Mm-hmm. Red shirt, blue shirt. Laura Tracey: What do you need to wear today? What sort of things are you going to need to put in your lunch today? If you're having a difficulty with a friend instead of mom coming in and swooping in and just saying X, Y, or Z, how do you think you could have solved that better? What happened? How did you respond to that? What could you have done differently? And kind of asking those questions to provide a thoughtful response. And

it doesn't have to be the right answer because we learn from those mistakes. Sheeba: Yes. Laura Tracey: The idea of the conversation, like so many of our ideas have come from was just normal conversation that we had as friends that were like, this could be an episode. And the idea of, are we over accommodating our kids? we're not gonna be right every single time, because being wrong is actually what forces our brain to think about the mistake and then what needs to be done to make it better. Sheeba: Mistakes are meant to be, mistakes are meant to be learned from. Laura Tracey: Like if we're always thinking, yeah. Yeah, because if we're always thinking for our kids, they don't learn to think ahead for themselves. Not to go too off, just, as you were sharing that I can very distinctly remember even teaching that. You I taught American history, so I always was teaching my students, like, when you're looking at history, you have to look at all sides and look at the facts, because you could really argue whatever point you wanted to. So we used to talk about current events, a long time ago, 20 years ago, that was hot topic. It's even more so today. But I remember trying to teach my students, like, look for credible sources. Go through, which is the critical thinking step. Sheeba: critical thinking skills have to be practiced. Laura Tracey: Don't take something for face value because in the news and these articles and opinions, and now with AI, so have to take everything with a grain of salt, Sheeba: Yeah. these days, like there used to be a time, and I don't want to sound like in the olden days, but that phrase of being to agree to disagree, they don't have the ability, that critical thinking ability to listen to someone else's perspective. And we can agree to disagree. Laura Tracey: You're our little Sheeba: because that's how we see it in adults that don't have the ability to critical think anymore. So when we're raising kids, we also have to remember that we're raising them for the future. Laura Tracey: We want that. mean, at the end of the day, can, I think every single parent is they want their kid to be a successful and that is the perception of where they're coming from when they're helping kids. And that's where we're seeing them like swoop in and do all these wonderful things to support them. But then if it becomes too much and there's a ton of research that's coming out that's showing this is that we're having young adults entering workforce and having a hard time functioning, like not being able to take initiative or when Sheeba: Yes. Yeah. Laura Tracey: the supervisor gives them an assignment, like can't follow through with it because they're not getting that step by step. they don't know how to complete the steps. And so then they can't problem solve. And then, then it becomes frustrating because the employer is expecting our young adults to be able to perform and do these tasks because they're young adults. But then the young adult feels

frustrated because they really probably don't have the skill to do it. We've talked about this before, is it a skill deficit or not being able to? And if you don't have the skills, then you can't do it. So it becomes frustrating all around. being able to focus early on to help parents guide that and provide the right support to be successful. Sheeba: Yeah. Laura Tracey: So let's do some key takeaways that parents could start to be aware of, teachers could start to be aware of. ⁓ Like we like to kind of wrap up episodes in the idea of just giving a couple things to start implementing that are easy takeaways that they can try. So what would be some suggestions to start tomorrow, let's say. Sheeba: It's okay if kids bored I feel like we try to fill up their schedule to make sure that they're always doing something, that they are somewhere doing something, play dates, and it's okay to bored. It's okay to not schedule anything and let them sit with that bored or being because then allows them to we have an education system right now that is highly reliant on memorization ⁓ and test performance and how do we do. But it's not all about knowing the right because I can tell you this. I see it. Laura Tracey: Yeah. Sheeba: Okay, I'm home. I'm not doing anything. What can I do now? Laura Tracey: And I would add to that, bored without access to screen or a device. That is a whole additional episode that we want to talk about, but being bored with having to come up with ideas that they can do on their own or different activities they can do, you that's, yeah. And just being able Sheeba: You have kids in these classes and they're learning far more than what we learned in eighth grade. They're doing well on their tests, they're getting A's, but are they actually retaining and understanding what they're learning? Yeah. Yeah, go outside, go fishing, find friends that you could. Yeah, you don't have to have a structured soccer time, a structured volleyball time, structured play date. ⁓ we're going in the mall. You don't have to do things all the time. You could have downtime and figure out what you need to do within your downtime and what that looks like. Laura Tracey: Allow your imagination. Be creative. Sheeba: they're in this process of like being like a robot and learning the thing and doing the thing, do they actually understand why they're doing it? ⁓ And will they have long term retention? I also believe in chores, and appropriate towards having your kids help at home because you're part of this family. This is the responsibility of the family. Like it's not just mom and dad's job to do laundry, cook, clean, vacuum. Those are things kids can pitch in age appropriate, get them involved because teaches them, because once again, Laura Tracey: Well, that brings up an issue that can be an entirely different episode about curriculum and brain development. That's actually appropriate for our developing kids. But I'm glad you brought that up because actually preparing for this, I actually looked into that a little bit. And there's actually research that I found ⁓ about teaching to the test is real, like quote unquote teaching of the test, whether it's a state test or the chapter test at the end of the unit just to move on. ⁓ Sheeba: Who's that? Okay. you're raising them and eventually they're gonna go out into the real world and you want them to have these basic life skills of I can wash a dish, I can put it in the dishwasher, I can make food, I can fold clothes, right? Laura Tracey: they're seeing, like the research I was saw is that the increased and standardized testing. So we're seeing high testing rates, which is heavily relying on memorization, like you said, and we're teaching great procedural skills. So kids are becoming really good at step by step, but there's a lack of, or a decrease in emphasis of instruction on critical thinking and problem solving. So we're seeing that Sheeba: What about you? What do you think? Laura Tracey: ⁓ I would the natural consequence happen. Like if you or a mom or a dad that's constantly telling your kids, don't forget your cleats, don't forget your cleats, don't forget your drum and don't forget your clarinet, don't forget your lunch. And your kid wouldn't do it without you telling them or you grabbing the cleats or the clarinet or the lunch as you leave to go out. Let it be forgotten because they're gonna find out like, Sheeba: Mm-hmm. Yes. Laura Tracey: we're looking at like a ton of surface level learning, but there's no generalization of skills. So it's exactly what you're observing, but there's actually research behind it. So this is actually like what our schools are doing and not to, not because teachers aren't wanting to teach, but just, it's just kind of the nature of the system that is built right now. pretty quickly. If I forget my cleats, I'm not practicing today. If I forget my clarinet, my band teacher is going to be upset with me. If I forget my lunch, you bring lunch to school. But maybe have to get school lunch. I don't know. There's natural consequences that happen that help teach those accountability skills. Because if it happens a couple of times, then they'll start to build that. Sheeba: Yeah. Right. And like I said, the critical thinking skills, they need to be practiced because your brain is an organ. It's not a muscle, but we treat it like it's a muscle, right? Because if it's not being used and we're not developing our muscles, it's not going to grow. you to train your brain to think this way. If you're only going to do surface level question and answering, that's all you're ever going to know. Laura Tracey: Mm-hmm. Sheeba: They'll learn, they'll learn. And I know that it's really hard. It was hard for me. And I know it's hard for our teacher friends and educator friends because there's something personal about that when your kid doesn't do well, forgets something, gets in trouble. It's almost like it's a reflection on you. And I had to

learn this too. was, there was times that, that's not how my teacher does it. And I had to step away it was affecting our relationship on doing homework and it was like, all right, I'm not even going to check it. take to school. I would write the teacher a note like, I haven't checked it. He thinks he's right. Please go over it with him. And same thing, like you your you forget your homework, it still happens. And it's like, well, you can turn it in tomorrow. I cannot bring it to you right now. ⁓ As uncomfortable as it is for us adults to sit with it and you want to help them, they're not going to learn if you're constantly rescuing them it falls back them. You you have to remember to take your homework. You have to remember to take the things that you need for school. That's your responsibility. It's not mine. Laura Tracey: Just these two. Yeah. And then building on that, you know, obviously that let the natural consequence happen, but then just using that as a teaching moment, instead of just letting them forget, asking them, what do you need for school today? What did you do, you know, and, need my math homework. Okay. Well, is it in your backpack? ⁓ right. And so just using those questions, like I said, it's just reframing how you're already asking your kid, did you do your homework? Did you put it your backpack? Just reframe it. What do you need for school today? Sheeba: Mm-hmm. Laura Tracey: and make them just take that extra step to go through with it. And then I would add to that, after something happens, or just in general, you want to just talk to your kids about it. Instead of telling them how to solve the problem, well, you should have put it in your backpack. You're telling them how to solve the problem. Again, just reframe after the fact. You forgot your math homework. What could you do next time? ⁓ I could do this. Or maybe I have a homework folder, and you develop a system that works for your kid. Sheeba: Yes. Yes. Laura Tracey: allowing them to be part of that conversation and being an active participant versus just listening to it. Because again, that turns back into the, mom tells me all the time, I'm just going to tune it out. And then it just doesn't, that turns into frustration. So we would say natural consequences, but also be part of the problem solving, working together, using that reframe and then debriefing, solving the problem, not just telling them how to fix it. Sheeba: Good. I also want to add when I did mention the chores and what I learned just as a human was if they don't do it the way you want, but they're still doing it. Laura Tracey: You Sheeba: Don't redo it for them, because what I've been told is I'm gonna do it, but I'm not gonna do it the way you normally do it. So you kind of have to sit with that, you teach them, okay, this is how you clean, this is how you do the chore. However, when they're doing it, and it's not looking exactly how you would do it, just you have to sit with that and don't overcorrect because at the end of the day, they're doing it. Laura Tracey: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Because if you tell them how to do it, then they're just going to get to point, then you should just do it. you can get into that kind of battle. And as we've talked before, don't get into those power struggles. So that's a huge reflection, personal reflection, growing forward moment to ⁓ share. Because can imagine that can be an issue of contention ⁓ with especially ⁓ Sheeba: Yeah. Yes. ⁓ yeah, for sure. Well, that's it for today's episode of Growing Forward with the Salty Psychs. Before we go, we just want to say parenting and adulting is not easy. There's no perfect formula, no handbook that covers every situation, and no parent or adult who has it all figured out. Our podcast is a space to have honest conversations, offer some alternative techniques and perspectives that just make the journey a little bit easier. We're all figuring this out and growing forward together. And as always, we always end with the question, how did you grow forward this week? Laura Tracey: If you enjoyed today's conversation or could help to see your child a little more clearly, we'd love to connect with you. Please subscribe so don't miss what's coming next. You can also learn more about our services or reach out to us directly via email at connect at growingforwardcollective.com. We're also on Instagram at Growing Forward Collective. We'd love to hear from you. Until next time, let's keep growing forward together.