BẢN CHÉP ÂM THANH 🔗
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[SPEAKER_00]: consequence podcast network.
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[SPEAKER_00]: In our conversation, Alicia talks about her personal experience living with bipolar 2 disorder.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Before we get started, if you enjoy going there with Dr. Mike, please follow the show and leave us a review.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It helps more people discover these conversations and join us each week.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And make sure to check out next week's episode of the going there with Dr. Mike podcast, where we talk with singer, songwriter, and musician, marina.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So here's another mindful rewind of the going there with Dr. Mike podcast with Alicia Boniano.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Going There, the Crossroads where music and mental health meet.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This season of going there is brought to you by Johnson and Johnson, who believes that health is everything.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Their strength in healthcare innovation empowers them to build a world where complex diseases are prevented, treated and cured, where treatments are smarter and less invasive and solutions are personal.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Through their expertise in innovative medicine and med tech, they are uniquely positioned to innovate across the full spectrum of healthcare solutions today to deliver the break throughs of tomorrow and profoundly impact health for humanity.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Dash Johnson, Dash Innovative, Dash Medicine.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Find them on social media at Janssen, U.S., and at J&J, INN-OV Med.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Now, on the going there podcast, our goal is to have in-depth conversations to address important issues so we can learn from each other, challenge the stigma of mental illness, come out of the darkness, and get the care we need.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And Alicia talks about her unique experience with bipolar 2, which for her also included
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[SPEAKER_00]: both when she was in a hypomanic and depressive state.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And she talks about her journey towards coping, which has involved a range of strategies, including medication, therapy, exercise, and playing music.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So let's go there and listen to what Alicia has to say.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So we talked ahead of time about something that you've talked about previously in the media, which is struggling with bipolar two disorder.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought what we could do just to start off is just talk about when you first experience the symptoms and what they were like for you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my big one was extreme paranoia that was like my, I mean, I've always dealt with depression and anxiety and I had just thought forever that that's what it was just escalated but I've been seeing the same therapist for like almost five years now and she was the one who diagnosed me which bless her soul in a good way so then I say that like fuck you but like I'm saying that genuinely.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And basically it just started to affect my work and I was having random mental breakdowns and my parent and I always just off the charts.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was like hard for me to do anything because I thought everyone was out to get me and I was spending a lot of time plotting against it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I guess
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I kind of felt like everybody was like out to dig for something that never happened.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If that makes any sense, like one morning I was up to like four deleting all of bully social media that ever existed for the past six years for absolutely no reason and honestly wish I still had it because there's old pictures there that I'm pretty sad or gone.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, that was the big one.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was kind of reluctant to take shows and just really paranoid about posting anything that had to do with any sort of like partnership that I would do with anybody.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was like a company or anything like that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I would just be sitting at a restaurant and walk out and have like a complete mental breakdown.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, I would have it there and walk out.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a joy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that was like the early stages, and then it just escalated until I got to the point where I had to figure something out.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And my lows got even lower and even longer to the point where I was just like I need to get help now if I want to stay here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, one of the things that's so tough about paranoia is that generally speaking, it's non-falseifiable, you know, you can't necessarily prove to someone that people aren't out to get them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, what sometimes can happen is that those efforts get drawn into the more general paranoid sense, like not only is what I'm thinking,
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[SPEAKER_00]: is going on, is that actually happening, but now there's these other people who are kind of conspiring as part of it, can really spiral very quickly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it kind
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of steals all your confidence because you start to just wonder if you're in a rational, state of mind or not, and you kind of start to look for other people to let you know if what you're thinking is sane or not or reasonable and you just totally lose yourself
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[SPEAKER_01]: You just don't you don't know who you are or why you're feeling the way it just feels like to not have any control to feel like such a stranger to yourself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a really isolating thing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it carries a lot of weight with it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's interesting that term, you know, being a stranger to yourself because we take for granted how much we rely on, you know, what we're seeing as being basically true in order to conduct our day-to-day life.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And once you have that sense that maybe it's not, everything really falls apart.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Or just being stuck in a feeling that you feel like you can't get out of and you don't know why you're there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it starts to feel like it's it's controlling you completely like you have no control over it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it almost feels like like there's like another person in your body that's that's taking the wheel and it's
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's jarring.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of unlike any, anything else.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's how I would feel often when I was at a really, really low place.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was like I was scared for my safety because I just felt like I had a, it was kind of so crazy, but like there was a different person in my body that was going to make decisions for me other than myself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I felt like it was inescapable.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that is just, it's a feeling I wouldn't wish on anybody.
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[SPEAKER_00]: No, and what you're talking about is exactly what happens for people when they're in either a a manic or a hypomatic episode.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's actually one of the ways that sometimes we'll talk.
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[SPEAKER_00]: to people about it as a way of differentiating.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you know, sometimes people will say, well, I was manic.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I was just working all the time, and it was like, okay, but did you feel like you were driving the car?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Or did you feel like somebody else was driving the car?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And people who go through it know immediately the difference between those two things.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure, and also since it's is so foreign to you in that moment, it just kind of brings you further away from the world because you feel like you don't you can't explain what's going on to yourself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So like what's the point of trying to explain it to other other people, and it kind of just to attach as you even more from reality, but many a manifest in the strangest ways like for me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: a lot of my manic episodes would look to other people like I was just really happy and enthusiastic and upbeat and outgoing and I would feel like elevated just like on another planet so good just like anything could happen to the point where I'm like maybe it's just like my time to go because I'm so happy and I think this is like as good as it gets and then it bums you out because you realize that that was
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[SPEAKER_01]: Not your default state and and then you get even more confused because you're like, I mean, I thought I had a grasp on myself, but I truly don't know.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, if I could live in my mania, I would because I feel like.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Invincible.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's one of the things that's very tough because most people, when they think about having a mental health issue, they think, oh, this is going to be painful, but particularly for people, especially hypomiric episodes, where it's not quite that full-blown manic where you just have no control over your thoughts or your behavior at times.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But you're just in that like super elevated state.
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[SPEAKER_00]: it a lot of people talk about that as like you said like this is the best I've ever felt.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's kind of like a hide.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's been times in the past for us feeling that way and I would vocalize it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like one Thanksgiving that was like up at three in the morning, just sending emails to everybody I worked with.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like going on about my appreciation and like how they helped the self work.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Just all this shit.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, I'm glad I sent them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That was nice of me, I guess, but yeah, it's just that particular state feels really good to me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not good when you get out of it,
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[SPEAKER_00]: Now did you only have paranoia when you were in a manic state or did you also have it when you were in a depressive state?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I had that every all day, every day.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It regardless of the state I was in.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's why it was like became unmanageable.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That was like extremely heightened all the time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say
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[SPEAKER_01]: When I'm in a depressive state, I mean, it's there, but I, it's also so hard to care about anything that it's like, it doesn't fuel me the same.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't like spiral the same.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I just that feeling of like when you're going and going and you're super paranoid, but you're like working and you're just doing this nonstop and you're making decisions not thinking I mean, you're reaching out to people and you're like coming to conclusions in your head about things that aren't really happening.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's different than when I feel like I get really low, which is more of like a what's the purpose.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I can't don't even want to get out of bed like I don't.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even want to stand up.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like fetal pose.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm looking.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I have my dog.
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[SPEAKER_01]: My dog is saved my life for sure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She's like the best thing that's ever happened to me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And my mom knows a lot about mental health stuff.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So there's been times like when I'm at my breaking point that I'm just like,
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't, I don't know if I can do this or whatever.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And she'll be like, well, I'll come, I can come tomorrow or whatever.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But that's like more of a little thorgic dread than when you're kind of going.
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[SPEAKER_01]: My funny, but it's like, it's just like, well, what else can I do?
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[SPEAKER_00]: No, but sometimes, you know, when you're when you're reflecting on it, it does it's kind of a weird thing because one, you know, obviously a lot of times we laugh at pain, but also there's something when you're not in the middle of it that sounds funny.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like some of the things I've done and like that was fucking wild, like, and I can look back now and I'm like, oh, that wasn't.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That wasn't a good time for me, but I think that being able to have sometimes a sense of humor about it as a way of coping with it, but also for me, it just came with being able to talk about it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's true.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, a lot of things, they're funny when we survive them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you listen to most people's funny stories or like favorite stories, there's a point at which
you're sort of like, I'm glad that turned out okay, because like, and that's what made it funny that it turned out okay, but obviously for a lot of people, it doesn't, you know, then it's...
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[SPEAKER_00]: much less funny.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, one of the things I'm kind of curious about is whether you noticed what tended to trigger manic episodes, depressive episodes, were they different things?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Was it just when things got very stressful, kind of it felt more destabilizing?
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[SPEAKER_01]: For me, it was just really my interactions with other people.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Was when it would trigger it, or I mean, definitely drinking.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sober now, but that obviously didn't help anything.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Drinking for me was like a way to cope with social anxiety, and it could like tap into that other person.
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[SPEAKER_01]: More easily than I should have been doing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I just interact with other people talking to someone about booking a show or finding a new guitar player or whatever the fuck it is.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's like dealing with other people is definitely triggering my paranoia.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Any sort of responsibility to social media that I had was like
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[SPEAKER_01]: unbearable.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm not my favorite thing, but it's totally necessary, especially now in quarantine, but I think I can do a better job of looking at it for what it is and just realizing that it's not the real world or, you know, it is in some type of way, but
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[SPEAKER_01]: I also am aware that it's just like corporations profiting off of like my need for validation and just trying to like take that with a grain of salt and just post what I need to do that day or whatever is on schedule and then just put my phone away and.
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[SPEAKER_01]: know that I am a good person and don't have anything to hide so it's like whatever whatever's going to come with that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I trust myself now and I know it's just like what even if people say things like what what am I going to do you know I can't tell that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah it's interesting the whole concept of interacting with people because you said something I don't know if I'm quoting it exactly right that I thought was very interesting about
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[SPEAKER_00]: how you were dealt with in school and how not everybody learns the same?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God, yeah, I could talk about school for ages.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, because I would actually like to, because I think one of the biggest things that you're saying about people is that, you know, it's kind of like there's a, you know, the tyranny of extroversion in the sense that there's this assumption that what's good is interacting with people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: what's going to be energizing is interacting with people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so kids are constantly forced, like, you know, raise your hand in class, like, why don't you go do this with your classmates?
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's a lot of people out there who don't necessarily see interpersonal relationships as being all good.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like what you're describing is that sometimes they can they can trigger somewhat negative things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that to me is right at the beginning of where I think that there's a lot of misunderstanding in terms of the education system because that fundamental thing is making people who would rather be a little bit pulled back, feel like there's something wrong with them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, totally.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, most of my social anxiety stuff came on later in life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like in
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[SPEAKER_01]: high school and middle schools like I was friendly and outgoing and stuff but it was more so just like the idea of one type of one way of teaching kids when everybody learns so differently and I have no idea if it has to be what actual knowledge is like correct about being left-handed but I'm convinced that's something like my
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[SPEAKER_01]: my learning disabilities are like from that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think that it's just kind of foolish to make the assumption that everybody can retain information the same way.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because I know that myself and a million other kids out there have like physically need to do it themselves to understand it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if someone's even still to this day, if someone wants to show me something, I'm like, okay, show me, but then watch me do it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because me watching you do it isn't going to click for me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, let me do it, let me fuck it up and learn from that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then maybe I'll remember.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's really disheartening and discouraging and school, especially as a student, because your whole sense of value is based off of your grades.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like that, just who you are.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, it's like, as you're saying that, I've had that conversation with people
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm sure I learned some basic stuff in classes, but the overwhelming, even in terms of how I practice as a
psychologist now, the overwhelming amount of learning happened when I would work on projects.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I learned way more by working on a research project where we were doing different treatments for binge eating disorder than I ever did about reading.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, for, to the end of time, but I, I would have had no feel for it, you know, and, and the same thing with the same thing with something like bipolar like I could have read about it, but until you're working with someone who's going through it, how can you, I mean, I guess you can you can have some basic understanding of it, but it's not the same.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I agree with you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think like for me project learning has always been the best way.
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[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things, I guess, that this topic brings up is how sensitive or understanding school systems tend to be for mental health issues as they present themselves in classes and in learning.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so for example, like a kid who's, you know, all of a sudden not doing as much work might be called lazy or this kid who's like having trouble sitting
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and it may be a while before there's any sense that there's a mental health issue going on.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if any of these things manifested for you while you were in school in a way where you're kind of like, Hey, the people around me are just not getting it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I just, I feel like for kids, it's like any type of behavior.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like a form of communication.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it gets written off so easily.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's just somebody being naughty or being bad.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And discipline for it when really what they need is a conversation and support about why it's happening.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so often, you know, it's just, there's not room for that, especially when there's so many students.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I was lucky that in high school I was able to go drive over to the art school and take engineering classes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because that was the first time where I met a teacher that really changed my life and helped me kind of find a sense of purpose.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely felt isolated and I scored.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But at the time, I didn't feel isolated.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I just felt dumb, you know, I just felt like a failure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Mainly just because it's like when you go through school and you're, and I spent like really until like 10th grade, I was trying.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was like really trying.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I would just like no matter how much I studied,
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[SPEAKER_01]: I had really bad testing society which I didn't even know was a thing, you know, it was like before a test it was just like everything would like it's totally escape my mind and I would just freak the fuck out like I still do that I was taking a CPR class and like I didn't pass and it's because in my brain I was thinking everything was a trick question like I was like this is too easy to be the answer what if it's this and it's just like
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[SPEAKER_01]: God damn, some things don't change, but just having that feeling of your peers, you know, not even having to crack a book and they're getting stray days and you're just so far behind.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, something's not connecting here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's that first feeling of otherness that comes when people struggle with their mental health.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's like you're also then like watching everyone else seemingly,
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[SPEAKER_00]: just breezing through it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And when people, again, when people talk about paranoia and how can that start manifesting, it's like it starts a lot of times, long before someone actually starts developing paranoia, it starts with that anxiety.
19:45.626 --> 19:50.249
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, you notice, like, I'm kind of talking about something and you're not getting what I'm saying.
19:50.549 --> 19:54.371
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's move a little bit into the world of treatment.
19:54.711 --> 19:55.712
[SPEAKER_00]: What got things better?
19:56.112 --> 20:19.982
[SPEAKER_01]: was when I was diagnosed was when I could start like the proper treatment because before that I was doing stuff for depression and anxiety which actually is like worse for you if you are dealing with any sort of bipolar disorder so it was like a long period really just about a year of like trial and error and all that stuff you know you need to gradually build up and then you can't just
20:22.143 --> 20:30.447
[SPEAKER_01]: multiple times, but you're supposed to build a back down, and then you shall have something new, and then you bump into issues with your insurance, and that's just kind of a nightmare.
20:30.547 --> 20:40.893
[SPEAKER_01]: But now I've been on the motor drain for years, and that's what really helped me, and then I have multiple things for anxiety on top of that.
20:41.233 --> 20:48.337
[SPEAKER_00]: But taking that medication was like the best thing I could have done, and I'm not saying that to be sitting here advocating for
20:49.257 --> 20:59.132
[SPEAKER_00]: Pharmaceutical company is a fucking hate pharmaceutical companies, but like I mean truly it's just it completely you know change my life for the better
20:59.557 --> 21:05.962
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, that just keeps me so much more level-headed, like I still fluctuate, but a little less extreme.
21:06.543 --> 21:16.871
[SPEAKER_01]: So really the big thing that I gained from taking medication was just getting my confidence back, because it was gone.
21:16.891 --> 21:22.676
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just shot, like, that took, that was the biggest blow.
21:22.736 --> 21:27.460
[SPEAKER_01]: I think was just, is it just like a constant identity crisis?
21:28.042 --> 21:41.105
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, one of the things that you said at the beginning, which not a lot of people know, unless you've been through it, is that one of the main ways that we unfortunately discover that someone is bipolar is when they're taking anti-depressant medication.
21:41.805 --> 21:47.566
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're bipolar and you're taking anti-depressants, it can sometimes throw you into a manic episode.
21:48.146 --> 21:56.328
[SPEAKER_00]: What's so disturbing about that is, you know, you're doing all the right things, you've been diagnosed with depression, you've been diagnosed with anxiety, you're taking your medication,
21:58.478 --> 22:06.843
[SPEAKER_00]: way worse and, you know, talking about this feeling of being disconnected from your body or someone else's, you know, driving the car.
22:06.883 --> 22:10.184
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it can just be brutal because it comes on so quickly.
22:10.405 --> 22:14.307
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel as though the medication was the main thing?
22:14.607 --> 22:18.529
[SPEAKER_00]: Was there anything in terms of therapy or other ways of coping?
22:19.029 --> 22:19.389
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
22:19.489 --> 22:22.171
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I still go to therapy weekly.
22:22.832 --> 22:28.576
[SPEAKER_01]: I meditate or try my best to attend Dharma talks and just try and understand it more.
22:28.616 --> 22:41.906
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, getting the diagnosis was great because it just helped me kind of know learn where to start and liked to think at first that I had a better understanding of it.
22:42.066 --> 22:46.069
[SPEAKER_01]: And that meant that I would be able to identify a little bit easier
22:48.291 --> 22:52.891
[SPEAKER_01]: And I still don't catch it until usually it's like already coming down, but
22:53.328 --> 23:16.107
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know, I mean, I tried attending like bipolar support groups and stuff, but it was just it was comforting because I was able to hear people who were kind of feeling the same way and less isolating, but at the same time, there wasn't like a psychiatrist there guiding it, you know, it's just kind of a group of peers.
23:16.367 --> 23:19.830
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know, I just I stuck with therapy.
23:19.950 --> 23:22.272
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been going for a long time and that helps.
23:23.192 --> 23:27.077
[SPEAKER_01]: All those things running yoga like everything in the fucking world.
23:27.257 --> 23:36.307
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I have to spend so much God damn time like that that's the most frustrating part about it is like oh, it's not frustrating I guess it's just the way it is but like having to stay on top of it
23:36.973 --> 23:45.502
[SPEAKER_01]: all the things that you have to do just to stay regulated is frustrating a lot of the time, because yeah, it's just annoying.
23:45.582 --> 23:49.987
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like more time out of your day, but it's also life changing.
23:50.007 --> 23:51.529
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just need to keep up with it.
23:51.809 --> 23:56.914
[SPEAKER_00]: No, we can't tell you that's that's something that I feel like is so common and it's one of the places where
23:57.715 --> 24:17.747
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think for anyone who's either going through it or as an ally and a family member, someone who's going through it is to realize that like, you know, yes, we have treatments now, you know, there's there's medications, there's therapies, you know, things like exercise meditation, there's there's a lot of things that people can do to manage mental illness.
24:18.633 --> 24:21.376
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's so wonderful when you find that right combination.
24:21.996 --> 24:26.200
[SPEAKER_00]: But even when that happens, it's just like you said, it's a lot of time.
24:26.620 --> 24:29.803
[SPEAKER_00]: And it feels like it's exactly like you're saying, it's like you have to keep on top of it.
24:30.123 --> 24:36.248
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think a lot of times people don't realize for themselves or for other people, like just how stressful that's going to be.
24:36.572 --> 24:42.977
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's just even more frustrating when you are doing all that you can, and it's still not working, and you just feel stuck.
24:43.217 --> 24:56.767
[SPEAKER_01]: Big one for me, and I hate running, but when I feel like I'm gonna explode, I'll just put my shoes on and go, and that temporarily help, I would recommend that for anybody who's dealing with anything similar.
24:56.787 --> 25:05.774
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that it's exercise is definitely one of the most consistent things that we have for dealing with any level of mental health issue.
25:06.363 --> 25:09.404
[SPEAKER_01]: Or, sure, it is, yes, 100%.
25:09.584 --> 25:16.645
[SPEAKER_00]: Which brings to the question of, you know, you talked about going to art school and finding purpose in that.
25:16.705 --> 25:30.307
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that, you know, a lot of people who struggle with anything, not just mental health issues, but sometimes mental health issues will listen to your music as part of their therapy.
25:31.187 --> 25:34.528
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm kind of curious for you just how everything
25:35.489 --> 25:45.097
[SPEAKER_00]: related to your pursuit of music, when you're doing music, do you feel better, is it totally unrelated?
25:45.117 --> 25:51.523
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you write better when you feel like you're in a manic state, which is what some people will report?
25:52.166 -->
25:59.030
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I will declare, I actually went to a public school, but my senior year, we were able to take electives over at an arts school.
25:59.110 --> 26:00.731
[SPEAKER_01]: So I got to go over there for a class.
26:00.791 --> 26:04.313
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I mean, music is the only thing that makes me feel better, for sure.
26:04.433 --> 26:06.895
[SPEAKER_01]: Without is out, 100% still to this day.
26:06.935 --> 26:13.078
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, right now there's just been something that's like been completely consuming the past eight months of my life.
26:13.118 --> 26:14.699
[SPEAKER_01]: And I still think about it every day.
26:14.839 --> 26:20.863
[SPEAKER_01]: And it just like that feeling in your chest, that sinking feeling, it's like, all I have to do is play.
26:21.403 --> 26:22.324
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have to remember that.
26:22.384 --> 26:24.886
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll forget or I'll be reluctant to do it.
26:24.946 --> 26:30.389
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like the moment I pick up my guitar and am able to just scream or even just sing.
26:30.449 --> 26:39.876
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like it just like carries the weight and then it comes back, but it's like the best thing in the world when you do it, it still just blows my mind.
26:39.896 --> 26:44.980
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just thinking about before this conversation because there's just nowhere else that
26:45.780 --> 26:50.883
[SPEAKER_01]: I can funnel that into the same way as I can with playing music.
26:50.903 --> 27:00.449
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just nothing else that like uses the, uses the paint on so dramatic, but gives you a sense of relief and a place for it to go.
27:00.469 --> 27:01.950
[SPEAKER_01]: It just feels good.
27:02.290 --> 27:03.671
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what I would do without it.
27:04.092 --> 27:08.214
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, did you feel that way about listening to music as well?
27:09.075 --> 27:11.156
[SPEAKER_00]: Or was it mostly playing music for you?
27:11.701 --> 27:12.762
[SPEAKER_01]: mostly playing it.
27:12.802 --> 27:19.350
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean listening to music, listening to sad music, I just haven't been able to do for like the past year.
27:19.471 --> 27:22.174
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like salt on the wound a little bit.
27:22.394 --> 27:30.003
[SPEAKER_01]: And some of my favorite songs are ones that, you know, it's like the best thing in the world when you feel like you can connect with a song or you understand it.
27:30.023 --> 27:30.083
[SPEAKER_01]: And
27:30.804 --> 27:38.110
[SPEAKER_01]: you're not alone, and I used to be able to play those songs when I wasn't feeling well, I feel better.
27:38.511 --> 27:50.620
[SPEAKER_01]: Recently, I just, I can't, with like, you know, when things are already dark, and especially like, you know, the state of the world we've been living in for the past, you know, nine months, year.
27:50.661 --> 27:51.882
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, really the best four years.
27:51.942 --> 27:52.102
[SPEAKER_01]: But,
27:52.822 --> 28:05.793
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like a lie, I just, I was very conscious of it when I was writing Sugar Egg because I didn't want to have to play that overnight.
28:06.433 --> 28:09.076
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to play something that even if,
28:13.459 --> 28:13.900
[SPEAKER_01]: a bummer.
28:14.680 --> 28:21.188
[SPEAKER_01]: I could still put it in a way where it was fast and like upbeat and felt good to get out.
28:21.288 --> 28:21.888
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know.
28:21.948 --> 28:24.772
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, people are crazy about slow-sad music right now.
28:24.792 --> 28:25.132
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like,
28:25.509 --> 28:27.710
[SPEAKER_01]: people fucking love it.
28:27.930 --> 28:32.651
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess that's another example I've just, I don't know, detached.
28:33.111 --> 28:50.275
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I don't know what people like anymore, but bullied is doing something for somebody out there, because I do get people send me messages often about how it helps them, and that's like the best thing in the world, because playing it helps me a lot, but yeah, with stats, low stuff, I don't, I've already got enough of that.
28:55.198 --> 29:10.221
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have a few songs from my favorite, two of my favorite bands of all times, which still are my favorite bands of all times, but I have to like stay away from this that songs because it'll just destroy me, but at the same time it's kind of messing in the world, but.
29:10.721 --> 29:34.675
[SPEAKER_01]: Land of talk has the song called, I think it's called it's okay or something and it's just like I mean she's one of my favorite musicians of all time She's so good and so talented and I still listen to those records and turn new stuff and she's just incredible to me and And then swearing is a band out of Philly who's also just one of the best bands in the world I'm gonna stand by that.
29:34.715 --> 29:38.698
[SPEAKER_01]: They're so awesome and it's all also both those people are like
29:39.178 --> 29:43.603
[SPEAKER_01]: all the people in Swearin and Liz, I think her name's Lizzy from Land of Talk.
29:44.364 --> 29:46.447
[SPEAKER_01]: Just also just super solid people.
29:46.667 --> 29:55.297
[SPEAKER_01]: Swearin, I don't even remember the name of it because I just play the record till the end, but I think it's called like Empty Head or Empty Space and it feels like
29:55.677 --> 29:56.378
[SPEAKER_01]: God's me.
29:57.739 --> 30:16.554
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love, I mean, it's some of the best stuff I've ever listened to, but for them too, those are records where it's like one song on the record that they decided to slow down for a good reason because they got a really good song out of it and the rest of the records are the, not a beat, but you know, they're rock records and they're great.
30:16.835 --> 30:23.040
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think is making it harder now for music or at least listening to music to do it for you?
30:23.570 --> 30:24.010
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
30:24.110 --> 30:28.272
[SPEAKER_01]: I just feel like there's already so much stuff going on that bumps me out.
30:28.332 --> 30:33.374
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to listen to something that's kind of like highlight that for me or bring it up.
30:33.494 --> 30:36.395
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I want music to be an escape.
30:36.475 --> 30:38.836
[SPEAKER_01]: I want it to make me feel better.
30:38.856 --> 30:39.436
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't.
30:40.436 --> 30:46.599
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just, it's like totally different for everybody because to a lot of people listening to that does make them feel better.
30:47.670 --> 30:57.933
[SPEAKER_01]: but I think where I'm at now, it really is just trying to do what I know is going to be better for me mentally as opposed to caving in and like sulking in it.
30:58.413 --> 31:07.636
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that's that's very tough is that sometimes people need like I know for example like when I'm in a bad place
31:08.642 --> 31:12.825
[SPEAKER_00]: I need to hear something that makes me feel like this person gets it.
31:13.125 --> 31:27.154
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a big reason why I'm sure that people will go to a bully record in part is because okay, like sometimes I just need to listen to somebody who I think gets it, you know what I mean?
31:27.814 --> 31:34.298
[SPEAKER_00]: And but sometimes if you're already at the point like, okay, I get it, there's no question about the fact that I get it.
31:35.308 --> 31:38.632
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I need to move past it, that becomes like a whole different thing.
31:38.893 --> 31:44.880
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just think too like a lot of what I'm saying just stems from my love of rock music.
31:45.060 --> 31:48.424
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll always try, I'll be like, oh, what's this new thing or dabble in this?
31:48.465 --> 31:49.966
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it's like, I put on like,
31:50.567 --> 32:12.583
[SPEAKER_01]: an old punk record or a rock record and I can shake my head and I can scream and I just feel like free of that and I hope that that's what bully is more of like and also I will say too like there's room for a sad song I just don't need a whole record of it you know what I'm saying and like I this is just me personally everyone's different I would rather shake my head and scream
32:20.437 --> 32:41.190
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think that historically one of the things that has been very powerful was when there were bands and bands that you've even been compared to, you know, whether it was Nirvana, whole, you know, I read that you're fan of the breeders, like where you could, you could put in dark themes in a fast-paced context.
32:41.550 --> 32:42.871
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, first of all.
32:43.655 --> 32:46.157
[SPEAKER_01]: or like allowed distorted context.
32:46.237 --> 32:48.800
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, that speaks to me more.
32:49.000 --> 32:55.526
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is, I think, by playing, this
is a totally ridiculous, but when I'm feeling really, really low, I will
32:57.855 --> 33:04.260
[SPEAKER_01]: play my guitar on full volume with distortion and sing into a microphone alone in my house.
33:04.340 --> 33:13.967
[SPEAKER_01]: It's completely unnecessary, but there's something about the noise that drowns things out, that nothing else can really do that for me except for that.
33:14.127 --> 33:16.369
[SPEAKER_01]: And I like hearing that in music.
33:16.409 --> 33:21.853
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it just adds more element and layers of emotion to it.
33:22.153 --> 33:28.270
[SPEAKER_01]: even sonically when I track a song or if I'm going to go to mix it.
33:29.385 --> 33:35.188
[SPEAKER_01]: I do it based off of how I felt when I was writing it and the feeling I'm trying to convey with the song.
33:35.288 --> 33:40.130
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like every detail is still trying to tell that story.
33:40.531 --> 33:48.815
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's, I think in a lot of ways, it's similar to the running, you know, sometimes some people are running people, some people are yoga people.
33:49.315 --> 33:54.738
[SPEAKER_00]: And obviously it's not that dichotomy, but some people in order to clear their head
33:55.538 --> 34:18.777
[SPEAKER_00]: and understand things they need to be really active and other people they need to be like their whole body needs to be calm and I think that musically it winds up being somewhat similar in the sense that some people need just something really really intense and other people need something that really really brings them into a certain kind of place and doesn't really matter just
34:23.521 --> 34:35.973
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to just ask one other thing because you said something before about purpose that I think is so important and I'm kind of curious because you also said that playing the music makes more of a difference for you.
34:36.413 --> 34:41.778
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel like when you're doing something that feels within your sense of purpose?
34:41.939 --> 34:43.060
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is who I am.
34:43.340 --> 34:44.401
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you feel it re
34:47.518 --> 34:52.821
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of orienting you, like reconnecting you to yourself, even during those more difficult times.
34:53.482 --> 34:54.602
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, yeah.
34:54.803 --> 35:02.828
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's something that has, like, been seriously eye-opening with quarantine and not being able to play.
35:02.848 --> 35:05.109
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, I just need that.
35:05.189 --> 35:06.070
[SPEAKER_01]: I need that outlet.
35:06.090 --> 35:07.751
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what it is about it.
35:07.811 --> 35:12.454
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's like my ego too, like needing to feel like I need to play in front of people, but
35:13.574 --> 35:16.497
[SPEAKER_00]: playing music is so separate to me than listening to it.
35:16.557 --> 35:28.108
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like a completely different feeling and not being able to play live and, you know, not being able to talk about it is just easy to kind of.
35:28.488 --> 35:40.217
[SPEAKER_01]: loose track of why you're here, you know, and that for me playing be able to talk to people after like connecting with people that I'm traveling with that's like what it's all about for me.
35:40.237 --> 35:45.741
[SPEAKER_01]: I was talking to someone the other day just about touring in general and how it's just it's it's fucking hard.
35:45.841 --> 35:50.305
[SPEAKER_01]: Like once you get to a level where you're in a bus and stuff you can get a little bit more of a break, but
35:50.825 --> 35:58.792
[SPEAKER_01]: you're sitting in the van all day, you know, you just wait, it's like hurry up and wait all day, and then you get that 45 minutes at the end of the day.
35:59.672 --> 36:08.240
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was talking to my friend, he's just like, I just couldn't, you know, I have musicians that I know, just like, won't do it, and I just couldn't, I couldn't imagine it.
36:08.320 --> 36:09.320
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, I,
36:10.141 --> 36:26.790
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll do that for the rest of my life if it means I get that 45 minutes at the end of the day because it's like everything I've bottled up I can just release in a way that I've never been able to do it before and it definitely keeps me going.
36:27.884 --> 36:41.234
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're disconnected from yourself, whether it's through mental illness or circumstance of any kind, you know, people don't give enough credibility to the notion of doing something that you feel like you were born to do.
36:41.254 --> 36:43.115
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's different for everybody.
36:43.575 --> 36:51.558
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's the main thing is like I have never felt like when I'm not playing, it's just like, I don't want to know what I'm doing.
36:51.598 --> 36:56.140
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I do know what I'm doing because I'm writing every day, but you know, like what's what's my sense of purpose?
36:56.200 --> 37:02.903
[SPEAKER_01]: Like all these insecurities, just like eating at your brain and when I'm on stage and playing, I
37:03.223 --> 37:11.928
[SPEAKER_01]: that music that I wrote, I truly feel like my most authentic self, like in a way that's, I have never even came close to.
37:11.948 --> 37:14.169
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's what it is.
37:14.349 --> 37:28.236
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like all those years that I spent wondering who I was or what I was supposed to be doing or how I feel about things that's like everything I write is really, really personal and very honest.
37:28.397 --> 37:28.797
[SPEAKER_01]: And so,
37:29.477 --> 37:37.398
[SPEAKER_01]: when I can be up there playing it, it just feels like I am fully the person that I am supposed to be.
37:37.999 --> 37:40.559
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think we should end on that.
37:40.579 --> 37:42.939
[SPEAKER_00]: Alicia, thanks so much for coming on going there.
37:43.159 --> 37:49.041
[SPEAKER_00]: When somebody like you steps up and shares these kind of stories, it just adds so much more.
37:49.061 --> 37:56.742
[SPEAKER_00]: We're like we said, I think people are already helped by your music, but you went through it and you know what it was like looking at a world where
37:57.242 --> 38:05.905
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it felt like no one understood you and to have somebody like you publicly be like, hey, I've been through this and people can read about it and, you know, that's me.
38:05.965 --> 38:12.587
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so much more likely to get the help that they need and so I really appreciate you stepping up and talking about this stuff.
38:12.627 --> 38:13.247
[SPEAKER_00]: It's tough stuff.
38:13.367 --> 38:14.327
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thanks for having me.
38:14.807 --> 38:15.308
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
38:15.808 --> 38:18.709
[SPEAKER_00]: And so best of luck with what's already a fantastic career.
38:19.209 --> 38:19.589
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.
38:20.729 --> 38:21.049
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
38:28.385 --> 38:33.372
[SPEAKER_00]: So there it is, Alicia Boniano talking about her experience coping with bipolar 2 disorder.
38:33.813 --> 38:36.156
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a lot to take away from the discussion with Alicia.
38:36.457 --> 38:42.806
[SPEAKER_00]: But one thing I really want to highlight is when Alicia described her experience of bipolar 2 as someone else taking the wheel.
38:43.367 --> 38:54.892
[SPEAKER_00]: This is really such an important insight because it describes how so many people who struggle with mental illness feel, that there is someone else driving the car, that they are no longer in control of their minds and bodies.
38:55.413 --> 39:04.137
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a terrifying feeling, not only because of the emotional pain it causes in the moment, but also the ongoing terror of not knowing when another episode will occur,
39:04.497 --> 39:12.102
[SPEAKER_00]: where we will no longer feel in control, and Alicia talks about how disconnected she can feel, which is so common when someone struggles with mental illness.
39:12.643 --> 39:17.406
[SPEAKER_00]: If we can't trust our minds and our bodies day-to-day, who are we, how can we feel safe in the world?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it is a testament to everyone who struggles with mental illness that they have the strength to endure that pain and disconnection as they hopefully find the care they need as Alicia has.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and we can learn a great deal from her struggle to reconnect with herself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We have to make sure that we find the right treatment to manage our symptoms as Alicia found with medication, therapy, and exercise.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But we also need to make sure that as we manage our symptoms, we connect with ourselves by finding our passions and our purpose as Alicia did with music so that we can live our healthiest and most authentic lives.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you enjoy going there with Dr. Mike, please follow the show and leave us a review.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It helps more people discover these conversations and join us each week.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I, of course, want to thank consequence podcasts in that work for including me in this wonderful project.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And thanks to Pete Wilson and the rooks for letting us use their song, I know.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you are struggling with anxiety, depression, or addiction, and are looking for help, please call the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration National Helpline at 1-800,
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[SPEAKER_00]: 622-4357.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you're thinking about harming yourself and want to seek help, please contact the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You may also go to the Consequence website for more information.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So be healthy, be safe, and be kind to yourself and others.
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[SPEAKER_00]: See you next time at the Crossroads.