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and they don't have an answer for me. It's skin. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And and you did. [00:04:50] Scott Eckart: And I think too, kind of embedded somewhere in there is leadership by influence versus position. [00:04:56] Nick Smarrelli: No question. [00:04:57] Scott Eckart: Right? [00:04:57] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. [00:04:58] Scott Eckart: And if you are a leader by influence, when you come into a room, people want to work with you or they want to. And pricey for good reasons are they want to serve the team versus saying, I'm afraid of Nick, if I don't do the right thing, he might fire me or might lose my job, which is my paycheck and my benefits and all the other things. [00:05:16] Scott Eckart: Yeah. Which is a terrible place to be. So wouldn't you rather create a culture and environment where people want to be the best version of themselves and what are you doing to foster and create that? [00:05:27] Nick Smarrelli: One thing that I, I would say struggled with and nobody taught me I was gonna be struggling with this is. [00:05:34] Nick Smarrelli: Am I a leader of influence or am I a leader with title? It is hard to discern that when you have the title right, people do follow you, but you don't know why. [00:05:42] Scott Eckart: Hmm. [00:05:42] Nick Smarrelli: And I think one of the fears that I had is as soon as I lost the title, how does that manifest in friendships? Like were people friends with me because I was an influential, you know, somebody of notes and power in the the space [00:05:57] Scott Eckart: or what you could do for them. [00:05:58] Nick Smarrelli: Correct. Certainly, yeah. Or did they really like me for who I was and. I struggled with that for years, specifically afterwards of just Alright, is like, I was very nervous that like my relevance goes away if you don't have the title. Hmm. And I was, I think hopefully along the way realized that, oh, the vast majority of the people in my ecosystem appreciated me for who I was. [00:06:21] Nick Smarrelli: And I think within the company, I think most of the employees would say is, I was a leader, not just because of the title, but because in the way that I approached. The business. And you know, to me, I have always, and even the way I teach classes, I, I, I always lead with its most human thing in the world, right? [00:06:37] Nick Smarrelli: This, this idea of you're bringing a tribe together, a community of people together, and we're kind of playing off our most like basic needs. Like all incentive structures are. Like from an HR perspective, or essentially playing to your most basic psychological drives, right? The drive to be needed. The drive to learn, the drive to, to thrive, to live. [00:06:57] Nick Smarrelli: Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. And part of my job is understanding how to create that space that plays into the human psychology. And I think that is something that always came naturally to me, both in just like I was biologically inclined for it, but it was also the stuff that I. Read about, again, I got my master's in organizational psychology. [00:07:16] Nick Smarrelli: It's this, the podcast that I would gravitate towards. I was never gravitating towards operational metrics and KPI podcasts or the economy or all these things. I probably should have, frankly, I understood how do teams work together? How do we have good conflict? How do we see potential in yourself and in others, like, and in those moments created opportunities for me to teach and lead in a different way that. [00:07:38] Nick Smarrelli: I think really kinda shaped the culture that we, that we created as an organization. [00:07:43] Scott Eckart: So one of the things that I wish I had learned earlier, and I'd love to have you maybe answer that as well, was how to collaborate better with people, because I was too insecure to do so. [00:07:54] Nick Smarrelli: Hmm. [00:07:54] Scott Eckart: So who did you allow to speak into your life? [00:07:59] Scott Eckart: Because clearly. You are a very wise person as being as young as you are. And I say young because you don't have any gray hair and I have lots of gray hair, [00:08:06] Nick Smarrelli: so, oh, there's, I found one this morning and it's excellent mortifying. [00:08:09] Scott Eckart: Yeah. Well that's because you put your 13-year-old on airplane. Thanks for bringing [00:08:12] Nick Smarrelli: that [00:08:12] Scott Eckart: up [00:08:12] Nick Smarrelli: again. [00:08:12] Scott Eckart: It came in there instantly. Who did you let speak in your life? Because if you're, you're sitting on the top chair and a lot of mistakes that I have seen is that the leader doesn't allow anyone to speak in their life. [00:08:25] Nick Smarrelli: Hmm. [00:08:26] Scott Eckart: Because they're too insecure. Yeah, potentially. [00:08:28] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. [00:08:29] Scott Eckart: Who did you allow? Was there anybody? [00:08:33] Scott Eckart: You got a lot of wisdom coming at me every time we talk. Where did that come from, I guess is my question. Yeah. And who did you allow to speak in your life? [00:08:41] Nick Smarrelli: You know, for me, I've always, since I was a kid, loved biographies and autobiographies. I. Again, I think reading is a source of just inherent knowledge and brilliance. [00:08:52] Nick Smarrelli: Hearing stories of other leaders, people going through hard things, it broadened my aperture in a way that like could give me bigger perspective and then shamelessly steal. I always say, and I'm, again, this is a theme for everything that you're gonna be hearing as far as where does this come from, is I do not consider myself the smartest person in the world. [00:09:09] Nick Smarrelli: Like I don't consider myself. I, I think I'm above average intelligence, but where I think I succeeded is I was a curator. Right? Like, I, I could hear a hundred ideas. I love, [00:09:20] Scott Eckart: I love that [00:09:20] Nick Smarrelli: word. Three. [00:09:21] Scott

Eckart: Yeah. [00:09:22] Nick Smarrelli: Or that applied the most. Mm-hmm. Anything that we did as a company, anything I said, I, generally speaking, stole from someplace else. [00:09:28] Nick Smarrelli: Sure. But I think I was very good at stealing the right things at the right time. So books being that first one. The second one, it was people that were older and generally wiser than me. There was never a time. In the process that I wasn't leaning on something and just watching, like I think I have a childlike if, you know, child children's learn, not by what you tell them, but like in like kind of mimicking mm-hmm. [00:09:52] Nick Smarrelli: And mirroring your actions. And so I think in a very similar way is every lunch that I had, every meeting that I had at a presentation that I saw was me just, again, curating it's stealing behaviors and, and words. My leadership team would always. We'd go to see a talk and there'd be like a word, like velocity was a word that I used for, I love that you the velocity of this. [00:10:12] Nick Smarrelli: And they're just like, why are you saying this so many times? I'm like, well, this isn't part of my stealing process. Yeah. So others, my executive team was a huge source of that, is I surrounded myself with people, and it took me a while to get here for this, this last this. One of this kind of key points is I did think as A-C-E-O-I had to be good at everything. [00:10:31] Scott Eckart: Mm-hmm. [00:10:31] Nick Smarrelli: And it took me a really long time. Far too long. Yeah. To realize the joy and being really great at the stuff that you're already good at and leaning heavily into that. And then in augmenting that [00:10:43] Scott Eckart: Yeah. [00:10:43] Nick Smarrelli: With people that are smarter than you with other things. [00:10:45] Scott Eckart: Okay. [00:10:45] Nick Smarrelli: Uh, things like operations and details and SOPs, like gross, like that has never been my thing. [00:10:52] Nick Smarrelli: Um, I could set the course and I can have a team that helps build that out. So my executive team. If you ever met, you know, the six of us. Mm-hmm. You would see six very, very distinct personalities. And I think that's what made us super strong, is there was no big, bold, charismatic, loud person. 'cause that was my job. [00:11:10] Nick Smarrelli: And I didn't wanna surround myself with people like me. [00:11:13] Scott Eckart: Okay. [00:11:13] Nick Smarrelli: So surrounding myself with people there and then I, I. I kind of, the fourth of the, the things was I always had a peer group and I always had like formal and informal mentors in my life. But the peer groups always served, you know, since the beginning of, since I'd say two years into the journey, I was part of a Vistage group that turned as I, we got bigger, turned into a YPO forum. [00:11:35] Nick Smarrelli: Okay. And so it was always eight to nine people that I would surround myself with on a monthly basis that told me. All the

garbage things that I was doing that challenged all of my assumptions. So, [00:11:43] Scott Eckart: so did that hurt your feelings, Nick? [00:11:45] Nick Smarrelli: Uh, you know what, it's, it's funny if I ask for feedback by choice it doesn't. [00:11:49] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. If it's, if I ask for feedback without choice, I still even at 43 still wrestle with, is this feedback a negative against me or a negative against, like the behavior. Right. Yeah. [00:11:58] Scott Eckart: Self-inflicted wound. [00:11:59] Nick Smarrelli: Correct. Right. Yeah. And so I, I still struggle with that, so I'll, I'll, [00:12:02] Scott Eckart: well, that's, that's really well said because I've recently, in the last couple years, started finally workshopping my workshops [00:12:08] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. [00:12:08] Scott Eckart: And invited. People in that I know actually care about me and say, okay, look, we're gonna, you're gonna actually beat this up on purpose. [00:12:16] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. [00:12:16] Scott Eckart: And I break the fourth wall and so we set it up and I give 'em a NICE's lunch and I say, okay, now I'm gonna present, but then I'm gonna stop. And I'm be like, okay, here I'm trying this, and then I'm gonna go back into speaker mode. [00:12:27] Scott Eckart: And then, and then at the end said, okay, hit me. Right. [00:12:31] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. [00:12:31] Scott Eckart: And giving them that permission. They're like, oh, he's actually, he's gonna ask this. So then they take it. Seriously, but they also do it with care. Correct. And then I walk out of there encourage, because they criticize me, which I wish I'd figured that out a lot sooner. [00:12:50] Nick Smarrelli: It's like somebody giving you the answers to the test [00:12:52] Scott Eckart: uhhuh [00:12:52] Nick Smarrelli: and so why not? Right? Yeah. One of the phrasings that I tried shifting, and I know it sounds kind of strange, but there there is some like psychological background to it is. Uh, again, you ask for feedback, and I think people, for some reason, see feedback as a negative thing. [00:13:04] Nick Smarrelli: Mm-hmm. But it's, if you ask for advice, people are like, oh yeah, here's two or three things that I can give you. Advice. Advice feels gifty. Feedback feels sticky and gross. Yeah. And so sometimes even just changing the language that you use and seeking out, again, even like workshopping and workshop gives people that permission to say like, oh, I'm giving him advice, like, that's I'm needed. [00:13:23] Nick Smarrelli: Versus feedback. Neil's like, am I qualified to do this? But giving advice feels safe. [00:13:27] Scott Eckart: Your Hall of Fame mentors, any, any names that, I mean people that you wanna shout out, [00:13:33] Nick Smarrelli: we'd spend the next two and a half hours talking about Right. The number of people that, that influenced my life. But there was actually one, and I, I cite him all the time and actually on the way here, I

sent him a note. [00:13:42] Scott Eckart: Yeah. [00:13:42] Nick Smarrelli: And I'm just like, I have said your name at least 10 times in the last year as somebody who's been highly influential in my life. And I don't think I've ever told you it. 'cause he wasn't a formal mentor. An individual named Mark was a client of ours. I think he was like our second real client that we had in 2010. [00:14:00] Nick Smarrelli: And he had just won the Inc. 5,000 best Places to work. I dunno, Inc. 5,000, fastest growing. He had won Best Places to Work, he had won a few things that just like, I don't, just felt like the most like insurmountable. Like that is unbelievable, amazing, amazing, uh, that he had gotten to this point. And so I like secretly like latched onto him of just like, I, I wanna know everything about you. [00:14:21] Nick Smarrelli: And he gave us and opened up doors that were, again, I would, I wish, I would love to like map out like the influence that he had and the number of doors that he opened, but I, I could probably associate 30, $40 million of revenue to this individual just from like connections of connections that became bigger connections all in the spirit of either giving me feedback or giving me opportunities that were 20 to 30%. [00:14:50] Nick Smarrelli: Bigger than I was capable of handling in the moment and I had to rise to the occasion. [00:14:54] Scott Eckart: That is incredible. [00:14:56] Nick Smarrelli: And he was just great at that. [00:14:58] Scott Eckart: Do you think he knew that at the time? [00:15:01] Nick Smarrelli: I think he didn't like in, in reflection. Now I think he was smart enough to realize what he was doing. Yeah. He had found somebody that he trusted with, but [00:15:07] Scott Eckart: Okay. [00:15:08] Nick Smarrelli: I don't know if I would've done, like, I don't, I was highly unqualified to be doing some of the things that we were doing. I felt that way till the, the, the last day as, as CEO. But nonetheless, like he, he saw potential and instead of kind of operating at current state, he always treated me in, in my potential state. [00:15:28] Nick Smarrelli: Mm-hmm. Of like, I'm gonna treat you as if you're there and I'm not there yet. Yeah. I mean, he gave us, again, at the time our average client size was like 20 or 30 people. We picked up our first like 150, 200 person client, like five x the size of what we should have been doing. [00:15:41] Scott Eckart: Yeah. [00:15:42] Nick Smarrelli: And it stretched our balloon, right? [00:15:44] Nick Smarrelli: Like he is he, and again, if you stretch a balloon, it becomes easier to inflate later on. Like that's what he did for us in a way that was just crazy. [00:15:52] Scott Eckart: Which is one of the coolest things about entrepreneurship that you no one ever told me would happen. No one ever told me that, Hey, Scott, if you're thinking about starting a business, all this other cool stuff's gonna happen, and you're also gonna hate your

life at certain times because [00:16:06] Nick Smarrelli: you [00:16:06] Scott Eckart: don't know how you're gonna pay the mortgage and minivan and all the other stuff that you didn't know. [00:16:12] Scott Eckart: Because my story was I got pushed off the cliff. I didn't choose to be, I, I didn't choose that. [00:16:17] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. [00:16:18] Scott Eckart: I was invited to leave the company I was with. I asked the question why I won too many times, and they said, yeah, we don't have a spot for you anymore. You can, you can go now. It's like, oh, that's the, [00:16:28] Nick Smarrelli: that's the entrepreneur brain. [00:16:29] Nick Smarrelli: I remember I was told my, uh, on my, like hiring for my first job at a Fortune 500 company. I was very thankful for yet another mentor That's, that took a chance on me. But on the top of the forum it said, do not hire will be difficult to manage. Was the, the top, top line was my wow. And he said, great. I want somebody who's gonna be difficult. [00:16:46] Nick Smarrelli: Okay. 'cause they're gonna ask Yeah. To your point. Yeah. If they're gonna ask why, [00:16:49] Scott Eckart: um, it doesn't fully surprise me though that they would say that about you. Yeah. 'cause you're. You're a lot [00:16:55] Nick Smarrelli: irritating. Yeah, [00:16:56] Scott Eckart: in a good way. [00:16:56] Nick Smarrelli: I, I hope so. Yeah. I think for the most part, but yeah. No, it's, it's incredible. Just the, again, like there's certain exercises that I wish I had, you know, I was at a, you know, I'd love to do like a retreat and just spend the time and make the list. [00:17:09] Nick Smarrelli: I, I mean, to your point around like. The amount of interactions that you get to have as an entrepreneur, I'd probably put it in the 800 to a thousand people range of like all the little things and the little like just gifts that I got from people along the way that got me to sit in a meeting like this with you and have a story. [00:17:27] Nick Smarrelli: And I just feel like it's just, it's so profound of like, yes, I am a lot in a good way. Right? Hopefully, but. I am not the only part of the story. Right. And just how many people along the way are part of it. And I just think just, and it sounds so cliche, but it's it's not, but it's not just like a mentor. [00:17:43] Nick Smarrelli: Right. Yeah. Like it's hundreds of people Yep. That were a part of this, and that's so neat to me. Yeah. Yeah. Like how. Yeah, cool. About the, the world of humanity that we, we can do that to each other. [00:17:53] Scott Eckart: And I had a, another, this was a stage mentor, somebody that I only got to meet once, but have followed and she said, the more you can be yourself, the more in common you become. [00:18:02] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. [00:18:03] Scott Eckart: So when I work with young advisors and, and young entrepreneurs who's, you know, call and say, Hey, you know, can I just sit down and chat and anybody calls me,

I will give them my time because if they cannot text me. Pick up the phone. Yeah. Right. Can I get on your calendar? [00:18:18] Nick Smarrelli: I just dated you by the way, and Okay. [00:18:19] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah, there's nothing cooler. Like again, I kinda look at a 22-year-old who just graduated of just like, yeah, they're. You know so much. Yeah. Uh, is is coming their way. Yeah. Uh, which is just the coolest thing in the world. [00:18:30] Scott Eckart: So let's talk about the 22 year olds and, and the younger. So you are at Butler. [00:18:34] Nick Smarrelli: I am. [00:18:35] Scott Eckart: What do you, how is that going? [00:18:36] Nick Smarrelli: One of the things that was so surprising is it was my first job. I had like prep, uh, cover letter for, I mean I hadn't done that in 25 years. And on there it was just like, you know, I bring 20 some years of experience and I was like, threw up. And I'm like, how did this happen? [00:18:49] Nick Smarrelli: When am I like a two decade in? But what I have the opportunity to do is, is twofold. So I, I, I'm a faculty member, which means I'm kind of teaching traditional classes. Mm-hmm. Um, I teach a, uh, an organizational behavior class, which is essentially everything that is my master's degree. Yeah. Is, is essentially just people at work and kind of humanity at work, which is of course my favorite thing in the world to talk about. [00:19:11] Nick Smarrelli: And then I teach a startup class where students get to kind of execute and come up with their own ideas and, and build a business as part of kind of a curricular experience, which is. Um, I think very unique in the, even in the university space is they get assigned mentors, they pick their own mentors, they get some non dilutive funding. [00:19:28] Nick Smarrelli: They have resources in the accounting, legal. Tech space. And [00:19:33] Scott Eckart: you said there's a, how many businesses are running right now? You told me. [00:19:36] Nick Smarrelli: We've got about 102 right now. That's right. We just hit, yeah, we hit the triple digit mark. [00:19:39] Scott Eckart: Yeah. Very exciting. [00:19:40] Nick Smarrelli: You know, it's so neat. Yeah, it's, and it's, again, I, I like to pretend to take credit for it, but at the end of the day, there is a market wave that is happening right now where students are seeing, you know, founding a business or just. [00:19:54] Nick Smarrelli: Challenging the status quo. We're seeing so many students right now asking why, like, why is this this way? You talked about just even you felt like life was falling apart. Like students are not walking into the world's greatest situation. Right? The, you know, the, you graduate from college, you're guaranteed a job that's gonna be, you know, you're gonna make some great money, you're gonna move up the corporate ladder, you're gonna get a house, you're gonna get married, you're gonna have kids. [00:20:15] Nick Smarrelli: Like nothing is even generationally, you know, 25 years ago is the same as it is now. Yeah. So the things that we. We're promised or not promised anymore. And I think students have two options, which is resign to the fact that they're doomed or, okay, what can I do to take initiative here? [00:20:33] Scott Eckart: Yes. [00:20:33] Nick Smarrelli: Um, and again, I think founding a business is a way to do that. [00:20:36] Nick Smarrelli: I don't encourage students to actually found, like, to like to do that immediately. Yeah. Like they found, find s found businesses, they think through the model, some of them take off and it's great. We've got students raising millions of dollars right now. Um, and then we have many that. Just explore it and all of a sudden this like dark part of your brain is now lit up and you see the potential of that. [00:20:54] Nick Smarrelli: And you think someday, if I ever get fired and I have a second grader who gives me some things, I remember the fact that I'm capable of starting a business and that could be a decade later. Yeah. And that is what I'm preparing for. Right. I'm not preparing necessarily for the 22-year-old founders. I should never have been a founder at 22. [00:21:11] Nick Smarrelli: And I wasn't. Yeah, I was. I had start when I was 28. So in that same way. I think they're just challenging assumptions in a really cool way. So that's, I think, you know, I look at why is it growing as facet? It's growing is, I think they're just, there's just this, I don't know, just high of effect of, of students wondering like, there's gotta be another way. [00:21:30] Nick Smarrelli: And so I think they're exploring this as potentially that, that other way. [00:21:33] Scott Eckart: So on the, I read Adam Grant, who's a huge, I'm a huge fan of his, um, talked about soft skills and where that term came from. [00:21:41] Nick Smarrelli: Mm-hmm. [00:21:42] Scott Eckart: Yeah. In the military. When they first started PSYOPs Psychological Operations and other executive reasoning skills for officers, and they realized that they didn't have it. [00:21:53] Scott Eckart: So they started training and they just call them soft skills because hard skills were build, build a rifle. Fire a gun, do the thing. [00:22:01] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. [00:22:01] Scott Eckart: They realized that they needed to train them in executive reasoning. [00:22:07] Nick Smarrelli: Mm-hmm. [00:22:07] Scott Eckart: Which is a better word for it than, than soft skills. Skills. Skills. Yeah. That was the thing. [00:22:11] Scott Eckart: And where they were kind of going with that was that people didn't know that, and part of that was do they believe they can be successful? [00:22:23] Nick Smarrelli: Hmm. [00:22:24] Scott Eckart: So do you have those conversations with your students who come in and you may determine head trash and here's my, here's my reasoning because my five, because of use, he, he helped me determine what was holding me back. [00:22:39]

Scott Eckart: 'cause I didn't think I deserve success. [00:22:41] Nick Smarrelli: Interesting. Yeah. [00:22:42] Scott Eckart: So your students, do you have conversations like that literally [00:22:47] Nick Smarrelli: every day? [00:22:47] Scott Eckart: Okay. Tell me more about that. [00:22:49] Nick Smarrelli: For me, part of my job is. Yeah. Even like the, the 102 things I, I often lament or see it as an honor, depending on the day, is I'm meeting one-on-one with almost all of them. [00:23:01] Nick Smarrelli: And you think about that, like, just in terms of volume of meeting meetings, how do you have time [00:23:03] Scott Eckart: for that? [00:23:03] Nick Smarrelli: It's, it's tight. Yeah. Um, but in those conversations. Is the things that you talk about the most, right. Is a, I think Adam Grant uses the word scaffolding. And I, that's one of my favorite kind of phrases is I serve as scaffolding. [00:23:17] Nick Smarrelli: They're, they're a building that's wobbly and I'm kind of like the side, like scaffolding. And so my job is not therapists. Right. Like that is, is a level of depth that I just don't have time for. And nor nor is an appropriate place for you [00:23:27] Scott Eckart: trained. Yeah. [00:23:28] Nick Smarrelli: But, but in those conversations is getting them the opportunity to build. [00:23:35] Nick Smarrelli: Like reps, and I think that for me is, is where it comes from as far as you know, what is holding them back or why it's holding them back. A licensed person can configure and, and navigate through that. My job is to help them see more clearly of, I want to do something big, but I dunno how to get there and let me do these small things and then successfully do those small things and realize, wow, I'm capable of this. [00:23:59] Nick Smarrelli: That snowballs into, I'm gonna go do three more small things and I'm gonna do five more small things. And all of a sudden they've done a bunch of small things that added up into something big. Higher ed has has a place, right? Again, if, if you can listen to this podcast all you want and say like, oh yes, of course there's a need for mentors. [00:24:13] Nick Smarrelli: And it's of course it's a network thing, it's of course a building things. I'm like, well, where do you get that from? And where is, where is just this activity happening? And I think it's in a well structured, higher education experience where. You know, on a weekly basis, you're meeting one or two new people. [00:24:29] Nick Smarrelli: You're building a relationship with someone like myself or any of the other professors at Butler, right? All of a sudden now they're getting those skills so that they have the. Motivation to call somebody like you out of the blue and say, I wanna meet with you. Like, that's the value of, of education, right? [00:24:42] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:42] Scott Eckart: Uh, so discovery, curiosity, [00:24:45] Nick Smarrelli: yeah. [00:24:45] Scott Eckart: I

don't see enough of it myself [00:24:47] Nick Smarrelli: personally. Correct. And that's what we have to advocate for. Yeah. As, as professors, it's, we have to teach the theory. We have to teach the, the constructs, but we also have to teach them. Yeah. [00:24:53] Scott Eckart: When you are with your students, how much of your experience as business leader do you share with them? [00:25:01] Scott Eckart: So, for example. Pivots, left, right, center failures, uh, successes. How much of that do you share with them as you think about all the things that you've done? [00:25:12] Nick Smarrelli: One of the reasons that I have been successful in my, like short tenure as a professor is I have tried to make the whole experience less glamorized in many respect for you. [00:25:26] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah, right. It's, it, it looks great, and I think one of my pet peeves is when students want to be quote me. You know, like you've got a family, you've got money, you've got, you've got everything. You've got stories, right? Catch [00:25:36] Scott Eckart: turns a goal. [00:25:37] Nick Smarrelli: Oh gosh, I'm far from it, but, but they want it now and they forget about the 22 years that it took to get there. [00:25:43] Nick Smarrelli: And not to mention just again, everything that was hard about it. And I speak. Very clearly on all stages, the beginning phase of starting the business, that was pure ignorance, right? Like I, I, I had no idea what I was getting myself into was blind, naive, uh, in some ways. And she, [00:26:00] Scott Eckart: that is a blessing, [00:26:02] Nick Smarrelli: right? To not, oh my gosh. [00:26:03] Nick Smarrelli: I don't know if I, what I go back again. Do is I don't think, I think the answer would be no. [00:26:06] Scott Eckart: Yeah. [00:26:07] Nick Smarrelli: And I tell them that of like, it is going to be the hardest thing Yeah. Uh, that you're going to do. But obviously inordinate benefits if it, if it does go well. To get to where I am now took a lot of negative, and I, I make sure to, to share that. [00:26:21] Nick Smarrelli: And I don't think, maybe I've turned people off of entrepreneurship, but I think I've painted the right picture of knowing what you're getting yourself into while still having 22-year-old. Enthusiastic optimism. Yeah. Uh, which I never wanna Yeah. Lose, right? Yeah. Because the world needs, [00:26:37] Scott Eckart: yeah. [00:26:38] Nick Smarrelli: People saying there's a better way of doing things and so I'm thankful that, that they do that. [00:26:42] Nick Smarrelli: But they also have to say, people that are challenging the status quo are going to be misunderstood and it's gonna be hard because of that. It is easier just to ride the wave, um, and making sure people know that that's coming. And when it does come to do two things that I didn't do, which was. Believe you're the only one that was going through it at that time. [00:27:02] Nick Smarrelli: Mm-hmm. In 2021, I thought I was the only one. Yeah. Like literally 100% assumes that if I met you and we had lunch, that you have your act together. Everything is going perfectly in your business. My business, everything was collapsing and I was, nobody has holding worse than me. Yeah. Impossible. Yes. And. One of the more fun things about being a consultant post transaction is everybody's messed up. [00:27:23] Nick Smarrelli: Like there is nobody who has rest together. [00:27:25] Scott Eckart: I messed up. You're messed up. That's okay. [00:27:26] Nick Smarrelli: We're all messed up and it's great. And so I think for me is a, realizing that you're not alone and then using the networks that you have to lean in that and say again, what are my next two steps? Like, give me some agency again, I didn't have agency. [00:27:39] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. Like it felt like the only thing I could do is run away because I didn't know what to do next. And so I talk about that so that they see that and they don't make. At least at the magnitude that I made those mistakes. Yeah. They don't make those mistakes. [00:27:50] Scott Eckart: Yeah. [00:27:50] Nick Smarrelli: Or they just realize that they're just not, that this is part of it. [00:27:53] Nick Smarrelli: It's like, again, I, I do long distance running, like, and in those races there is going to be a time where you want to quit. Mm-hmm. When you're, I would say clinical depression in middle of the race [00:28:02] Scott Eckart: and your body rebels against you. Yes. And says, I am going to sit down. [00:28:06] Nick Smarrelli: And when it happens, I get excited. [00:28:08] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. Because I'm like, oh good, I'm gonna get this outta the way. 'cause you know you're gonna get through it and. That's what I wanna do is like when they go through the hard times, like, yeah, great. I, Nick said this was coming. Mm-hmm. And all I gotta do is continue to press forward, use my network, think through it. [00:28:21] Scott Eckart: Yeah. And you get through it. Sometimes people come to me and they say, tell me about starting your own financial services business. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna tell you all the how hard it is and then I'm gonna try to talk you outta doing it. [00:28:33] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. [00:28:34] Scott Eckart: And if you still want to do it, then I'll support you 110%, [00:28:38] Nick Smarrelli: which I think is great, [00:28:39] Scott Eckart: but I am, I'm gonna. [00:28:41] Scott Eckart: Try really hard to talk [00:28:42] Nick Smarrelli: out of it. Our first day of class in the startup class is, uh, we spend the entire day of everybody telling each other by why their idea sucks. Uh, and that is, that's our first class. [00:28:51] Scott Eckart: Yeah. [00:28:51] Nick Smarrelli: And that has people, a pivoting, rethinking their idea or doubling down and realizing, okay, I can, this is actually a good idea. [00:28:59] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. So, yeah, I think there's some, there's some lessons

in that. [00:29:02] Scott Eckart: And sometimes it's okay to be on the team and not lead the team. And that's not a failure. No. [00:29:07] Nick Smarrelli: Right. I'm okay right now. I'm okay being on the team and not leading [00:29:10] Scott Eckart: the team. Yeah, not, not everybody can be in charge. No. So that's cool. One or two big lessons from in that world that you could pass along to someone listening as far as beginning with the end in mind. [00:29:26] Scott Eckart: So I always tell business owners plan with the end in mind, and they're like, oh, Scott, that's kind of defeatist or whatever. But I'm like, but is it though? [00:29:32] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. [00:29:33] Scott Eckart: Right. Because what are you gonna do with it? You gonna, are you living forever? Are you a journal? I mean, what, what's the deal? Right? So what's your thought on that, especially to people listening today. [00:29:44] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. So, whew. I probably had 40 thoughts as you were talking. So the first one that comes into mind, and I will, I'll talk about it in the narrative of kind of my journey. Which was, I could tell my exit from my companies in two different ways. I can tell you the real story, which was, again, I kind of gave you like glimmers of it, but we could, we could spend a lot more time there, or I can give you the, the fancy story. [00:30:06] Nick Smarrelli: But one of the, the fancy story and the real story have a few key things in common, which was the creation of, in some capacity optionality. One of the things I pivoted to was teaching and a requirement of teaching is getting your master's degree and that takes three years. I didn't think I was gonna be leaving my company at any time soon. [00:30:26] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. But I knew at some point I needed to start that. [00:30:28] Scott Eckart: Okay. [00:30:28] Nick Smarrelli: In 2016, I hired this incredible individual that eventually became president that is currently the CEO. So when I exited, I had a person to give it to. Part of my executive team is our executive team has been together for 10 years. I invested super heavily in them because when it was time for me to leave, they believed our values still stayed the same. [00:30:49] Nick Smarrelli: The vision still stayed the same. You know, we had, they had those skillsets. Yeah. And so in some capacity I made myself very important, but also not important at all, and I had to start doing that earlier. And the only way this story comes out that it looks successful from all, all like all sides, is because I was able to kind of put those chess pieces in place and. [00:31:16] Nick Smarrelli: Maybe not needed. It's like, it's like your business and you get a, uh, a line of credit and you don't have any cashflow problems. Right. But you know, you always have it [00:31:23] Scott Eckart: right [00:31:24] Nick Smarrelli: and you sleep better because you do correct to me. I identified either by accident or in some capacity thoughtfully, again, that line of credit, so that when I hit a point where I knew. [00:31:35] Nick Smarrelli: My best self was not coming to work anymore. And there were smarter people that at the stage of business that we were at could run us better than I could tap [00:31:41] Scott Eckart: the line. [00:31:42] Nick Smarrelli: Boop, I was there. Right. We had options. I'd already talked to potential investors and already vetted out the ones that I knew would leave us in the exact, the best place possible. [00:31:50] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. Right. So I already had those choices. So it, when I had to press the whoop button, I had a playbook for how it has happened and I didn't know when that playbook was gonna be. In fact, it was actually supposed to be 2025. So four years earlier. As usual, I try to overachieve, uh, you know, but. But I had options. [00:32:05] Nick Smarrelli: So again, lesson one is kind of figure out what those levers are, and you don't need to pull them, but have them available. Going back to a comment that you made earlier, is this idea of like not knowing what you would do if you were, again, if you had, if you had unlimited money, you'd have to go to work. [00:32:22] Nick Smarrelli: You asked the question more eloquently than I just did, but I really kind of think, I think so much of the journey is. I will be happy when, and I know we've heard this before, but this like, okay, all I gotta do is just continue on this Hellas journey, kind of a [00:32:37] Scott Eckart: full errand, [00:32:37] Nick Smarrelli: right? And I'm gonna sell this thing and then finally I'm gonna be happy. [00:32:40] Nick Smarrelli: And I can promise you, as somebody who has now gone through kind of the upper end of emotional health and the lower end of emotional health, having a bigger bank account does not solve it. And I know it sounds like a really obnoxious comment. No, not at [00:32:52] Scott Eckart: all. [00:32:52] Nick Smarrelli: Not at all. But, but at the end of the day, I needed to learn how to have. [00:32:57] Nick Smarrelli: Fun and be happy in the moments. That isn't the end game. It's not the As to start this podcast. It was that finish line is, is how do I find joy and happiness and contentment in today without always having to say. When this happens, I will finally be right. And I think for me, that's where I'm at right now is mostly 'cause I don't have the most specific finish line anymore. [00:33:22] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. You know, before it was just like survive where, especially when we were, the other company was a venture backed business. Like it was all about getting to the exit and, and [00:33:29] Scott Eckart: multiples and da, da da. [00:33:31] Nick Smarrelli: Exactly. Right. And so there was a very clear like, this is your finish line. And so I think so much of where my coaching lies now and my advice to people is, is assume that end game is not gonna happen. [00:33:42] Nick Smarrelli: And if

you assume that end game is not gonna happen in the way that you think it's going to, how can you build joy now? And I can promise you, if you can figure all that now, the end game will happen. Yeah. Even better than you think. Yeah. But I think so much is just waiting for yourself to get to the end. [00:33:56] Nick Smarrelli: And what a horrible way to live is just always being perpetually disappointed with today. Yeah. For the prospect of tomorrow. What? Like that's just a shitty way to live. So [00:34:04] Scott Eckart: one of the things I'm working on is helping owners of a certain generation. Understand the strength and power it is to allow the second gen leaders to emerge. [00:34:17] Scott Eckart: Yes. And they're holding them back. And I struggle with some of them in working them through the process of why it's important and why it's actually the strong leader who allows gen two to emerge. And when they put Roblox in the way, when they don't give 'em. The full playbook or give them all the information they need, and it's the strong leader that really allows 'em to emerge. [00:34:48] Scott Eckart: And when they do, it's a really beautiful thing. But that's a big project that I'm working on with a couple of my clients presently. [00:34:55] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. [00:34:55] Scott Eckart: So can you comment on that in this idea of allowing gen two to emerge? [00:35:01] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. I, I think, and again, I don't wanna put words into the mouth of your, your clients, but you know, to me, as I was navigating that, what, five or 10 years ago, as we were kind of building that next level, which was, what am I gonna do? [00:35:14] Nick Smarrelli: Uh, you know, there's this fear that. Especially coming from kind of founder ish mode where I was paying bills, I was invoicing, I was selling, I was doing the marketing, I was also leaving the company. Yeah, right. You were doing all the things and you started to have less and less, and then all of a sudden the CEO job evolves and changes is to the extent that your job is no longer the person that doing anything, and that feels scary. [00:35:34] Nick Smarrelli: And so for me, I think having comfort in knowing and seeing again these like small steps of like, okay, when I was doing marketing. Here's where we were. But then I brought in somebody that was doing marketing and now we're three x, like the capabilities there and kind of seeing these like yeah. Uh, situations that played out positively I think had, was really, really helpful for me. [00:35:55] Nick Smarrelli: But in that process, it enabled, like if you think about like the feeling of your business being like a house of cards and your job as CEO EO is just kinda keep the house of cards from falling. [00:36:05] Scott Eckart: Yeah. [00:36:05] Nick Smarrelli: If you can get those next level, like leaders in there to me. It felt like I'd stabled the house of cards. [00:36:12] Scott Eckart: Mm, [00:36:12] Nick Smarrelli: in the sense that it felt less wobbly and it felt less, so much less reliance on me to do the thing. When I could walk around and hear the same vocabulary I would probably use in a meeting or the same thesis or reminders of this is where we're going, the skill sets to do the hard conversation. So it didn't always have to come to me. [00:36:32] Nick Smarrelli: That's when I knew I was being successful. [00:36:33] Scott Eckart: Yeah. Yeah. [00:36:34] Nick Smarrelli: And I do think at the end of the day, like getting these little like fires, as much as you lament them and say like, I'm sick of firefighting, they feel good. Like someone comes to you, they need you. You have the answer all the time. I think being comfortable with. [00:36:48] Nick Smarrelli: Getting, avoiding that. 'cause the CEO job, like you don't know if you're successful until a year or two later of like, did that acquisition work? Did that investment work, did that re [00:36:56] Scott Eckart: reorg work? [00:36:57] Nick Smarrelli: Did that person work? Did that person work? Versus if I walk in for the day, I fight 17 fires and I got 'em all solved. [00:37:02] Nick Smarrelli: And the fires are all like, it's like mowing your lawn. It's like this, like beautiful, like for 10 minutes. [00:37:06] Scott Eckart: Yeah. [00:37:07] Nick Smarrelli: Right. [00:37:07] Scott Eckart: Yeah. [00:37:07] Nick Smarrelli: It's beautiful. Yeah. But, but I think naming that and realizing like that is not your job was important for me too, of just like, yes, this feels good. But it's not sustainable. And I think that that was just kind of like, again, some of my experience in, in that process. [00:37:22] Scott Eckart: Okay. Yeah. So to anyone, you know, listening or leaders listening, 'cause I do work with a lot of founders and they're a wonderful group, but they're pretty challenging. Yeah. Because they're pretty entrenched. And my biggest challenge is always saying, Hey, how do we begin the process of letting go? It's not weak, it's strong. [00:37:40] Scott Eckart: And that's a thing. So Yeah. [00:37:42] Nick Smarrelli: I love that. [00:37:43] Scott Eckart: So a big, um, uh, cool thing you're working on is, uh, a book coming out in January, [00:37:49] Nick Smarrelli: correct? [00:37:50] Scott Eckart: The Next Two Steps. [00:37:51] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. [00:37:52] Scott Eckart: Is that right? [00:37:52] Nick Smarrelli: The Next Two Steps? Yeah. [00:37:54] Scott Eckart: Tell us about the Next Two Steps. Why the book? Why did you want to even write a book? Not. [00:37:59] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. [00:38:00] Scott Eckart: To mention what it's about. [00:38:01] Nick Smarrelli: I think there's just no better way to kind of share something that's personally meaningful to you. It's why you and I sit on a podcast right now Yeah. Is because I think we've learned a lot in our journeys and I, I wanna share it, and I do think I'm kind of uniquely positioned. I, I've got, again,

both the work experience, but I've got the, the background in psychology and kind of like how do we marry all of those things together to tell a well researched. [00:38:25] Nick Smarrelli: Thoughtful book on something that I think is highly meaningful, which is the capacity and the ability when there's uncertainty ahead to still take action. [00:38:35] Scott Eckart: Okay. [00:38:36] Nick Smarrelli: And I think that's the whole thesis of the book is why do people know that they have to make a change? They have to leave a job, they have to get even, like, get a price increase from a customer. [00:38:45] Nick Smarrelli: They have to, to make a change. They have to start something. Yeah. They have to do a, an event, and yet they don't. And they don't for a long time. And they sit there and prep and they sit there and talk about it, and they sit there and, and plan and they're stuck in neutral. They're stuck in neutral and they're spinning and they're not actually taking action on it. [00:39:03] Nick Smarrelli: And so it's, it's an encouragement for the overthinker and not everybody overthinks, uh, there's some people probably could benefit from [00:39:10] Scott Eckart: who under think. [00:39:11] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah, right. Um, and so, but I think people that listen to podcasts like this are likely the overthinkers, right? They're trying to figure out, am I doing the right thing versus. [00:39:21] Nick Smarrelli: I'm gonna be the beta test and start to take action on things and use that as my experiment versus trying to overanalyze all potential outcomes. [00:39:31] Scott Eckart: So the Next Two Steps, what is significant about the number two and steps [00:39:37] Nick Smarrelli: the Next Two Steps? So it comes in part from a psychological princip. That basically says, let's say somebody gives you, your boss just came to you and gave you really, really tough feedback. [00:39:46] Nick Smarrelli: I know we talked about feedback earlier and you hate it. Like you're, you're miserable. You're, you, you feel like a piece of garbage. You hate your boss, you hate your job. I'm gonna quit. And that is just your kind of brain's response. That's your, you're amygdala firing, it's your in fear mode. And what the Next Two Steps does is come back to the concept of agency, which is, now that I know what I know. [00:40:07] Nick Smarrelli: What are the next two things I can do? Okay. I can write down those thoughts and then I can, you know, take sign up for this class, or I can have a conversation with somebody else, or I can do these two little things. The Next Two Steps is just a framework for when you're feeling overwhelmed and you're like, okay, I don't know what to do next. [00:40:24] Nick Smarrelli: Okay. What are the next two things? So start thinking about leaving my job. Great. Maybe go on, you know, indeed, and look for something or change your header on your resume and then close it. That's it. Don't do anything more. And just see what happens. It's a tool that I've used even in my, like, like I said, coaching work a lot of, [00:40:40] Scott Eckart: yeah. [00:40:40] Scott Eckart: Yeah. [00:40:40] Nick Smarrelli: Making the big and scary feel less scary. [00:40:43] Scott Eckart: So did you have the students interact with any parts of it, or you gonna, are they gonna read it as [00:40:47] Nick Smarrelli: part of their curriculum? Students? Yeah. Part of, again, whether it's leadership by title or leadership by influence. Yeah. My students have, there has been a student that has read almost every single chapter. [00:40:56] Nick Smarrelli: Yeah. And just because I wanna make. The audience is probably for a slightly older cohort, but the, the audience is still in that, that range and usually probably from a kind of a feelings perspective, is there's a feeling of uncertainty. I don't know what is next. Yeah. And that's the who I'm kind of appealing to. [00:41:14] Nick Smarrelli: So having a student review it is, is always nice and it's their one chance to be. Critical of the professor who is always critical of them. So they're, they're, yeah. They're like, they're excited. [00:41:23] Scott Eckart: Where's my red pen? Here's notes I'm gonna rip you. Right? Correct. Yeah. And I can count on them. I can't wait to look at syntax. [00:41:28] Scott Eckart: And that's a dangling participle. And you should Oh [00:41:31] Nick Smarrelli: yeah. Fix that. No, none of that 'cause, mostly 'cause Yeah, I don't think we, we do, we do we even teach grammar [00:41:36] Scott Eckart: anymore? I, I don't know. [00:41:37] Nick Smarrelli: I don't [00:41:37] Scott Eckart: think so. They don't know what cursive is. But as we get ready to land this plane, I love to talk about work life integration. [00:41:44] Scott Eckart: You have a family, which is wonderful. You did not put that on hold, nor did I. [00:41:48] Nick Smarrelli: No. Yeah. [00:41:49] Scott Eckart: Um, it started pretty early. We're in our 40th year of marriage. [00:41:53] Nick Smarrelli: Oh, [00:41:53] Scott Eckart: congratulations. Um, and I would not be here without. Her. Yeah. Uh, everything I get to do. How do you handle work life integration? I don't talk about work-life balance anymore. [00:42:02] Scott Eckart: Nope. Um, learned from a good friend of mine, my clients, he said, don't use that word. Talk about integration, not balance. What, what does work-life integration look like to Nick? Yeah, this family [00:42:11] Nick Smarrelli: I work and then my wife works as well. Mm-hmm. And it's important to note that not only do we work, but we're like type A workers. [00:42:17] Nick Smarrelli: So it's instead of just shocking. I know. We found each other. Yeah. Uh, which is great. And I think philosophically, her and I have kind of always said our responsibility as it relates to our kids is, is to be present at the big things and identify the 20% that is the most meaningful. But I want my kids to see. [00:42:35] Nick Smarrelli: The struggle, and I want my kids to see that clearly. I would rather be with them. Mm-hmm. But I've made a choice to do something of substance that benefits the community or the world, or the job, or our ability to take a vacation. Mm-hmm. And so we want to be as highly present parents, but we also want them to have space and realize that we get to go on cool vacations because of a sacrifice that mom and dad make. [00:42:59] Scott Eckart: Yeah. [00:42:59] Nick Smarrelli: And in the pursuit of something that they find. Purposeful and meaningful. And so our kids are very like, active in all of that. But I have been, again, my running is easy to schedule. 'cause you can do that easily in the morning [00:43:12] Scott Eckart: or anywhere. [00:43:13] Nick Smarrelli: And that's nice, right? I'm like, [00:43:14] Scott Eckart: my swimming, I gotta kind of have a pool, right? [00:43:17] Scott Eckart: Yeah. That's, that [00:43:17] Nick Smarrelli: is nice. I'm two shoes away. Yeah. From, uh, from, from going out and doing anything. And so there's a lot of times where, you know, I've, I've, uh, especially over the summertime where it's a lot easier to do. This is instead of a, a, uh, what it's called a coffee meeting, it's, Hey, let's go for a run together. [00:43:31] Nick Smarrelli: I don't care what your pace is. But I'm gonna check off my run there. And so it's, it's, it's kind of weaving everything together in, in my life. Yeah. [00:43:37] Scott Eckart: So, um, Nick, thank you is fun. This has been such an enjoyable time and I just love what you're doing at Butler and. Working on the book and just congratulations on that. [00:43:48] Scott Eckart: 'cause I know that was probably a, a feat to get it done. Thank you so much and, uh, can, uh, wish you continued success in all you're doing. [00:43:55] Nick Smarrelli: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate [00:43:57] Scott Eckart: it. All right. During my conversation with Nick, there are three key points that I wanna look back on. Number one, be a curator of ideas, whether it's from books, speakers, or mentors around you. [00:44:09] Scott Eckart: Number two. Build your people that surround you like a line of credit. So when you're ready to succeed and transfer, you can tap that people line of credit today and not wait until tomorrow. And number three, you don't need a title to matter, lead by influence and not by position. Head to the show notes of this episode to find links to connect with Nick and remember, the future is bright. [00:44:35] Scott Eckart: I'll see you next time. Thank you for listening today. If you like what you've heard, please join us in the Velocity Network and sign up@www.velocoaches.com, which is a gathering of entrepreneurs, business owners, and people who desire to learn more about running and owning a business. Also, you can subscribe to future proof on Spotify, apple, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts.