Bản chép lời đầy đủ của Roll Your Own Dice w/ Rob Wallace

BẢN CHÉP ÂM THANH 🔗

WEBVTT NOTE Transcription provided by Podhome.fm Created: 8/13/2026 2:29:08 AM Duration: 5317.329 Channels: 1 1 00:00:01.520 --> 00:00:02.320 Alrighty. 2 00:00:03.520 --> 00:00:04.160 Wow. 3 00:00:04.880 --> 00:00:07.520 Welcome to Fundamentals of Fundamentals. 4 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:09.360 I am fundamentals, 5 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:11.920 and I have a really exciting guest today. 6 00:00:12.974 --> 00:00:16.974 We have Rob W, but not that 7 00:00:18.255 --> 00:00:19.454 can mean many things. 8 00:00:19.935 --> 00:00:20.974 Rob Wallace. 9 00:00:21.535 --> 00:00:22.654 What's up, buddy? 10 00:00:22.974 --> 00:00:29.290 Sir, thank you for having me on. Great to connect and get to speak one on one first time. Yeah, this is 11 00:00:30.330 --> 00:00:33.850 really tightrope walking now because you and I have never talked in person. 12 00:00:35.770 --> 00:00:39.610 Barely DM'd each other other than to say, dude, we should podcast. We should do a podcast together. 13 00:00:40.665 --> 00:00:42.184 We're in the same orbits. 14 00:00:42.185 --> 00:00:46.265 Same orbits, almost in pretty much in the same time zone. 15 00:00:46.905 --> 00:00:47.465 And 16 00:00:47.785 --> 00:00:54.504 I see you wearing your big BTC hat. Yes. You're a part of this whether you want to be or not. You're part of big BTC, my friend. 17 00:00:55.590 --> 00:00:58.149 I am a part of big PTC. I'm 18 00:00:58.789 --> 00:01:00.469 not ashamed to 19 00:01:01.670 --> 00:01:07.350 have embraced it early. And when I say early, like I wrote a book called Bitcoin for institutions, because I 20 00:01:08.229 --> 00:01:09.990 have a deep caring for 21 00:01:10.315 --> 00:01:15.035 that world coming into Bitcoin and not fucking up and not fucking us up. And 22 00:01:15.595 --> 00:01:18.555 I seem to be alone in that caring if 23 00:01:18.875 --> 00:01:21.915 I judge by the interest in the book, but 24 00:01:22.899 --> 00:01:24.659 I do care a lot about 25 00:01:26.100 --> 00:01:26.979 that working. 26 00:01:27.060 --> 00:01:30.259 I think that's good for us if that works. 27 00:01:30.420 --> 00:01:34.819 Like, we can't stop these guys from coming. If somehow they come in and have 28 00:01:35.145 --> 00:01:38.905 a roadmap that gives them a fighting chance, I think that's good for us. 29 00:01:40.104 --> 00:01:46.505 It's necessary. Anybody who thinks that Bitcoin becomes the global world reserve currency without institutions 30 00:01:46.505 --> 00:01:47.945 showing interest is 31 00:01:48.110 --> 00:01:49.630 a caveman. Right? 32 00:01:50.110 --> 00:01:56.189 I think you're right. It matters how that foundation is set, our relationship towards them, their relationship towards us. 33 00:01:56.670 --> 00:01:58.430 And so far, has it been 34 00:01:58.830 --> 00:02:00.909 good? It's been alright. 35 00:02:01.805 --> 00:02:05.325 The treasury companies, I think, were sort of a a pitfall, 36 00:02:05.645 --> 00:02:08.365 a little bit of misplaced euphoria. 37 00:02:08.525 --> 00:02:12.765 But in terms of has Larry Fink been good or bad for Bitcoin? 38 00:02:13.260 --> 00:02:16.380 I guess I would say he's been good so far, right? 39 00:02:17.180 --> 00:02:18.220 Absolutely. 40 00:02:18.220 --> 00:02:23.820 And that's one of the actually one of the reasons I wrote the book was to give my view on why 41 00:02:23.980 --> 00:02:25.180 he was here to begin with. 42 00:02:26.235 --> 00:02:26.875 And 43 00:02:27.355 --> 00:02:29.435 because if you don't know why he's here, 44 00:02:30.075 --> 00:02:36.955 and you can't really judge him on what he's doing right now, it's going be very hard to figure out when his bit flips and he becomes a villain. 45 00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:44.600 Because he will be one day he will be right. Yeah, at some point, he's gonna lose that human costume. Right. 46 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:47.480 And he's gonna say, you know, it's time for 47 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:49.080 it's Blackrock 48 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:54.255 time. Now it's not Bitcoin time. It's Blackrock time. Right now, will also my theory, 49 00:02:54.495 --> 00:03:01.455 for those of you who, for the 8 billion of you who didn't bother reading my book, my theory in a nutshell, 50 00:03:02.495 --> 00:03:03.215 was that 51 00:03:04.495 --> 00:03:05.455 basically, 52 00:03:05.455 --> 00:03:09.490 BlackRock was on the ropes after the Bank of England bailout in 53 00:03:10.530 --> 00:03:11.570 2022. 54 00:03:12.290 --> 00:03:14.610 When I say on the ropes, I mean, like, 55 00:03:15.970 --> 00:03:23.925 sometimes you have a co worker who's a bit of a fuck up, but you know, they're never going to get fired. Right? But they're never going to be in the good graces of like, 56 00:03:24.085 --> 00:03:30.245 management, right? So BlackRock wasn't going anywhere. But that bail, like having to be bailed out. 57 00:03:30.645 --> 00:03:32.805 They don't like that. They like being 58 00:03:33.285 --> 00:03:36.405 the ones who do the bailout. They don't like being the ones 59 00:03:36.980 --> 00:03:43.060 that have to ask for it, or be told to do it. And so just to be clear, in 2022, they were told 60 00:03:43.300 --> 00:03:46.100 when the British guilt was spiking, and 61 00:03:46.819 --> 00:03:48.819 they had to be told to stop selling 62 00:03:49.325 --> 00:03:58.605 bonds, they had to be told to stop selling UK bonds by the UK government. UK government called them up and said, Larry, you're killing us, stop selling our bonds, we got this, we're 63 00:03:58.845 --> 00:03:59.805 gonna bail this out. 64 00:04:00.445 --> 00:04:02.765 That's not a call that Larry Fink ever wants to get. 65 00:04:03.610 --> 00:04:05.130 Even though it sounds innocent, 66 00:04:05.370 --> 00:04:09.050 but Larry Fink wants to be the one delivering that call and not getting that call. 67 00:04:09.610 --> 00:04:11.690 And I think 68 00:04:11.690 --> 00:04:12.330 that 69 00:04:13.130 --> 00:04:14.650 BlackRock was close 70 00:04:14.970 --> 00:04:18.010 to getting Bitcoin at that time. I think

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they were well on their way. 71 00:04:18.925 --> 00:04:27.325 And then this was just like, Oh, shit, dude. You know what, if we had done this, like, if we had done this ten years ago, let's just say, right? 72 00:04:27.725 --> 00:04:36.480 We're not getting that call because no one gives a shit if we're selling Bitcoin to cover our customers. No one gives a fuck about that. No government's gonna call us. Right? 73 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:39.200 So okay, Bitcoin stateless. 74 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:39.920 And 75 00:04:40.320 --> 00:04:42.640 oh, yeah, by the way, suck. 76 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:44.800 So like, we don't want to be in them anyway. 77 00:04:45.280 --> 00:04:54.385 Right? Because we just took a we just all took 30% haircuts on our on our bond values this past year, 2022. 78 00:04:55.425 --> 00:04:56.225 So like, 79 00:04:56.945 --> 00:05:00.065 it started to look really good once he got in trouble. 80 00:05:00.305 --> 00:05:05.250 And so I propose this big theory in the book about how 81 00:05:05.730 --> 00:05:09.010 they came to Bitcoin because they were in trouble and Bitcoin was the solution. 82 00:05:09.650 --> 00:05:10.210 And 83 00:05:11.810 --> 00:05:20.065 I do think that, you know, I've really analyzed this over the last year and a half that I really just make something up out of thin air. I mean, it's not like 84 00:05:20.544 --> 00:05:23.265 anyone's diaries revealed this to be true. 85 00:05:23.825 --> 00:05:24.465 But 86 00:05:24.785 --> 00:05:30.010 it seems to hold up. Haven't really seen much to say, Oh, you know, BlackRock's totally 87 00:05:30.170 --> 00:05:31.930 off the reservation, and they don't 88 00:05:32.250 --> 00:05:34.410 care about any of the things I thought they cared about. 89 00:05:35.450 --> 00:05:43.125 I think you bring up a good point that you come to Bitcoin when your back is up against the wall, right? Whether you're an institution or an individual, 90 00:05:43.845 --> 00:05:54.885 it's as we were saying before, I think it's crisis money, right? It's built for these hard times. And when you need that alternative that other people cannot mess with, that's when you realize Bitcoin is the path forward. 91 00:05:56.320 --> 00:05:57.040 Yeah. 92 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:11.040 And, you know, I think BlackRock just just to elaborate a little bit more, I think there's twofold. There's two crises that they are worried about. One is, okay, they wanted real assets. So BlackRock was on a mission to get every real asset that they could. Okay. 93 00:06:12.745 --> 00:06:13.385 But 94 00:06:13.785 --> 00:06:14.905 Bitcoin was 95 00:06:16.745 --> 00:06:22.745 the fail if they fail, I feel like if they fail to integrate Bitcoin into their clients portfolios, 96 00:06:23.305 --> 00:06:24.505 I believe they will 97 00:06:24.980 --> 00:06:28.820 remain with this unacceptable exposure that they 98 00:06:28.900 --> 00:06:31.940 had in 2022 that got them with The UK. 99 00:06:32.180 --> 00:06:36.820 So what I think what

they desire to do is actually replace enough bond exposure, 100 00:06:38.035 --> 00:06:41.315 That replace enough bond exposure to Bitcoin so that 101 00:06:42.115 --> 00:06:43.235 they're never 102 00:06:44.354 --> 00:06:47.555 impacting a country's currency when they're managing their clients. 103 00:06:48.034 --> 00:06:52.675 Right? That was really the that was the wake up call, I think at that moment was like, we don't want to, 104 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:57.360 to be on the radar of central bankers 105 00:06:57.440 --> 00:06:59.840 just to manage our clients portfolios. 106 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:00.960 Right? 107 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:05.760 We want to be too big to fail, but we don't want to be so big that, 108 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:06.640 you know, 109 00:07:07.200 --> 00:07:16.915 we're a problem. Yeah. So Bitcoin does that additional thing for them, which is sort of it lets them sort of swap out the bond situation, 110 00:07:17.475 --> 00:07:18.675 and insert 111 00:07:19.235 --> 00:07:25.120 a much better situation that they seem to be good with the asset itself, but also like it's countryless. 112 00:07:25.520 --> 00:07:28.639 It's very easy to hedge because they had just invented 113 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:30.960 and delivered the perfect hedge, 114 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:32.240 ie the ETF. 115 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:33.440 So like, 116 00:07:34.159 --> 00:07:44.715 they had the situation pretty locked down to get into Bitcoin. And it helped I think getting the ETF helped us so much. I know people don't agree with this. But 117 00:07:45.275 --> 00:07:53.400 I just, I think that whether you like it or not, Bitcoin being a freer market and being a more available accessible market 118 00:07:53.800 --> 00:08:01.000 is needed for Bitcoin's price discovery ultimately, and ultimately their adoption has to be based on 119 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:03.000 ultimately available free markets. 120 00:08:04.215 --> 00:08:28.080 You can't stop it. Right? It's a permissionless network. You're not gonna stop Larry Fink from recognizing that this thing is special, different. He wants to get his wrapper on it and make some money off the fees and also have a hedge when it comes to global crisis. And I think it's interesting to look back at that time, late twenty two, early twenty three, shit was pretty hairy. It could have actually gone really bad right then. 121 00:08:28.400 --> 00:08:30.240 I mean, Biden was the president. 122 00:08:31.440 --> 00:08:32.400 We had 123 00:08:33.504 --> 00:08:34.464 What's her name? 124 00:08:34.865 --> 00:08:36.384 Not Theresa May, the 125 00:08:37.985 --> 00:08:40.785 woman who got thrown out as a prime minister of The UK. 126 00:08:41.665 --> 00:08:44.144 Yeah, I already forgot. Studied 127 00:08:44.785 --> 00:08:46.384 her for the book and I forgot her name. 128 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:53.680 But she I mean, she was in for a couple weeks and she proposed that we maybe get our act together fiscally 129 00:08:53.680 --> 00:08:55.600 here and they threw her out. Right? 130 00:08:56.079 --> 00:08:57.920 We had the collapse of FTX 131 00:08:58.079 --> 00:09:02.399 and then in a couple months later, we had the regional banking crisis here in America. 132 00:09:03.045 --> 00:09:03.605 And, 133 00:09:04.325 --> 00:09:21.230 I I mean, I'll never forget it because that was when I first took over or got started with Bitcoin News. And I was tweeting about this, and Balaji made this million dollar bet. Ninety days. In ninety days, Bitcoin's gonna go to a million dollars. Right? And it was $20 at that time. Right? He was gonna 50 x in ninety days. 134 00:09:22.029 --> 00:09:29.470 Okay. Well, that didn't happen, but it showed you just how perilous that time actually was for people who were in the know. Right? 135 00:09:30.415 --> 00:09:32.575 Crazy. Well, yeah. I mean, 136 00:09:34.015 --> 00:09:35.295 there was I I 137 00:09:36.175 --> 00:09:38.095 I've had a long career in finance, 138 00:09:38.495 --> 00:09:40.655 and I lived through the o a crisis, 139 00:09:41.055 --> 00:09:42.255 and I lived 140 00:09:42.710 --> 00:09:43.350 through, 141 00:09:43.910 --> 00:09:45.350 you know, 2001. 142 00:09:46.390 --> 00:09:50.710 And there have been brief moments where I was, I was legitimately scared. 143 00:09:51.350 --> 00:09:53.430 Right? Like, I'm like, I don't know. 144 00:09:53.910 --> 00:09:56.895 I don't know if this is really going to come back. Like, 145 00:09:57.135 --> 00:10:01.295 could be really, really bad. Oh, it certainly was one of those moments. I mean, 146 00:10:01.855 --> 00:10:08.095 Oh, it just felt there was never a moment in the year 2008, where you felt like this was going to work out. 147 00:10:08.910 --> 00:10:23.150 You know, in the lead up 'seven, it was like in 'seven, you were getting billion dollar write downs from banks like every week. It wasn't like 'eight, where all this 'eight was just when the final when they, you know, it's it was when the lizards decided to 148 00:10:23.285 --> 00:10:29.045 pull the ripcord and solve the problem. Yeah. In their own way, right? That's but this was basically 149 00:10:29.685 --> 00:10:34.645 started really in April of 'seven with Bear Stearns. That was like the first shoe to drop and then, 150 00:10:35.605 --> 00:10:44.329 you know, you'd March eighteen months to eight. Right? But like, it was just so dark and horrific. 151 00:10:44.649 --> 00:10:45.370 And 152 00:10:46.250 --> 00:10:49.769 it really it I had very little confidence that it was, 153 00:10:50.505 --> 00:10:55.465 I was really, really scared. You know, it's hard to describe after the fact because, know, 154 00:10:55.865 --> 00:11:05.420 nine eleven was another one of those things where it's like, Oh, shit. And we should have been scared then because things did change like think like nine eleven had probably worst lasting impact in 2008. Right? 155 00:11:05.580 --> 00:11:12.140 Consider the Patriot Act and it's what's still happening and how

you know, it's never turned around. It's only gotten worse. 156 00:11:14.060 --> 00:11:16.860 You know, I mean, there was no offsetting 157 00:11:16.860 --> 00:11:21.285 thing like Bitcoin that got launched. Yeah, just knowingly offset it. Yeah. 158 00:11:21.845 --> 00:11:40.390 It was so you know, so I all that is to say that in March 2023, was I was feeling the same vibes. I don't know how this is all going to turn out. It's gonna be one of those points where we go through this all over again, and we don't know. And then, you know, strange, dude, like, I had gotten I just got into Bitcoin 159 00:11:40.550 --> 00:11:41.270 in 160 00:11:41.750 --> 00:11:42.670 January 161 00:11:42.670 --> 00:11:43.590 22. 162 00:11:43.590 --> 00:11:46.390 It's when I first got my first sets. 163 00:11:47.110 --> 00:11:47.350 And 164 00:11:48.695 --> 00:11:55.175 that year, you know, I can't wait to talk to you about this. But like that year was my 165 00:11:55.815 --> 00:11:59.335 real that was the peak pleb slop consumption. 166 00:11:59.735 --> 00:12:05.470 Right? My journey down the bitcoin rabbit hole. And I do believe that pleb slop is like necessary. 167 00:12:06.030 --> 00:12:20.555 Like being going through that pleb thing is necessary when you it's the chum, you know, it's like puberty. I like to say it's like puberty, you have to go. You don't want to stay there forever. But like, I had really convinced myself that the powers that be were super incompetent. 168 00:12:20.555 --> 00:12:21.595 Like by the time, 169 00:12:21.915 --> 00:12:25.035 you know, I had huge, I had huge conviction 170 00:12:25.035 --> 00:12:26.635 the whole way that whole year. 171 00:12:27.115 --> 00:12:35.760 But I had in Bitcoin, but I was really starting to convince myself that the powers in charge were really dumb, really incompetent, 172 00:12:35.920 --> 00:12:41.200 right? Because that's what happens when you go down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, you know, a lot of people realize it for the first time. 173 00:12:41.520 --> 00:12:42.400 But 174 00:12:42.595 --> 00:12:44.275 when we got to March 175 00:12:44.275 --> 00:12:45.155 2023, 176 00:12:45.395 --> 00:12:46.515 and they started, 177 00:12:47.395 --> 00:12:52.115 they started unthing the bag, their bag of tricks, dude, like the the BTFP. 178 00:12:52.115 --> 00:13:00.770 Yep, the SWAT acronyms like, dude, how like shame on me for underestimating these guys, dude, these guys, when it comes to kick in the can and surviving, 179 00:13:01.410 --> 00:13:05.330 do not ever underestimate them. I'm like, so grateful that like, Oh, 180 00:13:05.730 --> 00:13:14.535 woke me up. It's like, you know, it just woke me up again. It's like, yeah, you you can't go around just totally thinking everyone who's not you as a retard. 181 00:13:15.095 --> 00:13:16.375 Yeah. Well, 182 00:13:16.855 --> 00:13:21.495 I mean, I gotta give my personal story here because I know you haven't heard it. 183 00:13:22.055 --> 00:13:23.815 Sorry, I'm sorry, was. No, 184 00:13:25.014 --> 00:13:33.600 absolutely. But I was doing my homework because I'm I'm a good podcast host, and I was listening to your show with Rob Hamilton. And one thing he said in the beginning of it was that 185 00:13:34.160 --> 00:13:49.035 people who got into Bitcoin in the twenty tens had living memory of 2008, 2009. Right? And I think that's one of the reasons why we're having such a hard time getting that new class, getting those new '21 to 25 year olds on board is because they don't have that living memory of 2008, 2009 186 00:13:49.275 --> 00:14:08.110 viscerally attacking them, right, shaking them to the core. And so I was in college at the time. I was at Tufts. I was studying international relations and Chinese, thought I wanted to be a diplomat. And I come home one September, October day from class, turn on the TV, and I see Hank Paulson say, if we don't give the banks a trillion dollars, 187 00:14:08.635 --> 00:14:11.274 we're gonna have tanks on the streets. It's gonna be martial law. 188 00:14:11.755 --> 00:14:12.475 And that 189 00:14:12.954 --> 00:14:16.395 flipped my worldview upside down. Right? And ever since then, I thought 190 00:14:16.714 --> 00:14:19.274 hyperinflation was gonna be there by 2012. 191 00:14:19.355 --> 00:14:24.700 Right? I was listening to Porter Stansberry and, of course, Peter Schiff at the time. 192 00:14:25.500 --> 00:14:27.020 Super hyperinflation 193 00:14:27.020 --> 00:14:28.060 doomers, 194 00:14:28.140 --> 00:14:31.100 and I didn't find Bitcoin until many, many years later. 195 00:14:31.580 --> 00:14:40.635 But I that set me down that hole thinking that, yes, the powers of b are completely incompetent. This thing's about to unravel and that we need to prepare for Mad Max because, 196 00:14:41.195 --> 00:14:43.515 ladies and gentlemen, you don't know what's about to hit you. 197 00:14:44.635 --> 00:14:45.995 It's wild, dude. Like, 198 00:14:47.339 --> 00:14:51.100 I was, I was working on a derivatives desk during 2008. 199 00:14:51.180 --> 00:14:51.740 And 200 00:14:53.260 --> 00:14:56.620 we were everyone was logically expecting inflation. 201 00:14:56.940 --> 00:14:58.779 I mean, you're going to print a trillion dollars. 202 00:14:59.595 --> 00:15:05.515 That was the one thing that everybody did expect. And I feel like the fact that somehow they, 203 00:15:06.635 --> 00:15:07.195 know, 204 00:15:07.595 --> 00:15:08.235 somehow, 205 00:15:08.555 --> 00:15:11.595 but like, you know, that inflation expectation 206 00:15:11.595 --> 00:15:13.519 was never realized or 207 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:20.399 It went into assets. Went into assets. Yeah. So once it wasn't realized for about five, six years, 208 00:15:21.040 --> 00:15:30.635 I think everyone just is like, I guess, I'm saying even on Wall Street, we're like, I guess we were wrong to think there would be inflation there. There's no reason to think that clearly. 209 00:15:30.875 --> 00:15:33.274 And I guess there's never going to be

again. 210 00:15:33.995 --> 00:15:35.195 This is all fine. 211 00:15:35.435 --> 00:15:41.830 And they just kept going. They just kept going in the next that was really the next five years was full ZERP. 212 00:15:42.710 --> 00:15:43.430 Yeah. 213 00:15:43.670 --> 00:15:44.310 Right? 214 00:15:45.590 --> 00:15:49.910 It's like And gold crashed, and gold crashed. It was ZERP and gold crashed. 215 00:15:50.790 --> 00:15:52.630 It's wild. So it's 216 00:15:52.630 --> 00:15:55.990 so important. This is why I have to say, I know 217 00:15:56.435 --> 00:15:58.435 I'm a little bit of an alienating 218 00:15:58.755 --> 00:16:01.235 crank, and that's what people tell me. 219 00:16:01.714 --> 00:16:06.515 But it's so important not to learn the wrong lessons all the time, 220 00:16:08.290 --> 00:16:13.170 even because though you're in a you may be in a situation in Bitcoin where you feel like it's obvious. 221 00:16:13.970 --> 00:16:19.010 I mean, you feel like this, you feel like you see the field, you see the chessboard, and you see perfectly. 222 00:16:19.090 --> 00:16:24.505 But if you take the wrong lesson into the next situation, it's just, you're going to be in a lot of trouble. 223 00:16:25.545 --> 00:16:28.904 You know, we were sitting here on the precipice of 224 00:16:30.665 --> 00:16:40.300 I hate to talk about it, because I never talk about it on my on my podcast, to be honest. But since it's since we're days away from this fork, just just going to mention it as an example. 225 00:16:40.540 --> 00:16:41.900 Not not everyone 226 00:16:42.380 --> 00:16:44.380 knows my opinion on this thing. But like, 227 00:16:45.260 --> 00:16:54.305 where I would go back, because, you know, it's not alienating enough to oppose the fork, I'll go back to the block size war and say that I feel like a 228 00:16:55.025 --> 00:16:56.865 lot of people took the wrong 229 00:16:57.105 --> 00:16:59.665 lesson away from there, which is 230 00:17:00.225 --> 00:17:02.065 they think the lesson was small blocks. 231 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:03.920 And 232 00:17:05.120 --> 00:17:09.759 I don't think that's the lesson. I think the lesson was that the network resisted a minority 233 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:13.200 group of people who overestimated 234 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:13.840 their power. 235 00:17:14.335 --> 00:17:19.215 The path, you know, in that in that case, it was their mining nodes, but they overestimated 236 00:17:19.215 --> 00:17:20.095 the power. 237 00:17:20.895 --> 00:17:24.335 You know, they overestimated their power, and they learnt a hard lesson. 238 00:17:24.575 --> 00:17:26.815 And what I find in this particular 239 00:17:27.430 --> 00:17:28.309 episode 240 00:17:28.310 --> 00:17:30.789 is kind of something similar where 241 00:17:31.350 --> 00:17:37.750 the network is going to resist a minority group of people who's overestimating 242 00:17:37.750 --> 00:17:40.405 their power. And it's, 243 00:17:40.565 --> 00:17:42.565 I say that to say it's like, 244 00:17:42.805 --> 00:17:48.325 it you have to challenge yourself all the time to ask, are you learning the right lessons? And are you really 245 00:17:48.565 --> 00:17:49.205 taking 246 00:17:49.685 --> 00:17:50.965 good information 247 00:17:50.965 --> 00:17:58.299 into the next situation? Because like when I read the block size word, like three months after I got into Bitcoin, and I was like, yeah, small blocks was right. 248 00:17:58.940 --> 00:18:02.700 Right? Clue. Because that's all you're capable of really thinking at the time. 249 00:18:04.060 --> 00:18:11.744 Yeah, I mean, I think the lesson that was not learned that should have been is that there was overwhelming consensus 250 00:18:12.065 --> 00:18:17.825 to move, like, to move towards Segway and everything in 2017. Right? Like, 90% 251 00:18:17.825 --> 00:18:29.789 of Hash rate and all the players outside of the New York agreement wanted to go a certain way, and that's why Bitcoin went that way. It was, as you said, a minority trying to attack or have their way with Bitcoin, 252 00:18:29.870 --> 00:18:35.389 and 90% plus of the network and economic value said, no. You can't do that. 253 00:18:35.870 --> 00:18:43.624 These guys don't have that. Right? They've got 5,000 nodes and how many Bitcoin? I mean, I don't know, but they don't have the hash rate. That's for sure. So 254 00:18:44.505 --> 00:18:46.344 I feel so bad because 255 00:18:46.585 --> 00:18:47.945 a lot of these people 256 00:18:48.900 --> 00:18:52.020 like, is it plebslop that they got addicted 257 00:18:52.020 --> 00:19:04.020 to? You know? Like, they they got this you have to be willing to have an open mind with these things, and you gotta have strong opinions loosely held. Right? You gotta be able to adapt to new information that comes your way, 258 00:19:04.785 --> 00:19:05.425 And 259 00:19:06.065 --> 00:19:10.145 they're going to face reality in a couple of days here. And we'll see what happens. 260 00:19:10.945 --> 00:19:11.745 Where 261 00:19:11.985 --> 00:19:13.105 do they go? Right? 262 00:19:13.665 --> 00:19:19.185 I mean, I think an outcome that an outcome where they keep their coins is good is still a good outcome. 263 00:19:21.320 --> 00:19:26.680 You know, this is a difficult high stakes ruthless game, as we found out last week. 264 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:28.760 You know, I mean, 265 00:19:29.080 --> 00:19:32.040 like, was just God, I was ten hours 266 00:19:32.280 --> 00:19:34.440 away when I found out about the cold card hack. 267 00:19:35.585 --> 00:19:38.465 You know, I had cold card exposure, 268 00:19:38.465 --> 00:19:38.945 but 269 00:19:39.585 --> 00:19:40.465 not I 270 00:19:40.705 --> 00:19:45.265 made my own seed. I was okay. But like, what I was thinking, man was like, dude. 271 00:19:45.825 --> 00:19:55.460 The passing of all the purity tests didn't save anybody who lost and it's like the saddest, the most unfortunate thing. But that's like a lesson I wish I could 272 00:19:55.700 -->

00:20:00.100 echo without being cold about it without being a dick 273 00:20:00.420 --> 00:20:01.059 and 274 00:20:01.300 --> 00:20:06.484 heartless about it. I don't want to be heartless. I want to express the ruthlessness of 275 00:20:06.965 --> 00:20:08.325 what we're dealing with. 276 00:20:08.804 --> 00:20:09.364 Right? 277 00:20:10.085 --> 00:20:10.725 But 278 00:20:11.765 --> 00:20:14.005 so I say this with incredible empathy. 279 00:20:14.840 --> 00:20:20.120 Right? And it's almost with empathy that I want to make sure people understand how ruthless this shit is. 280 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:35.154 But you know, the social aspects of I mean, you and I go to conferences and make friends with a lot of people. And you know, it's like, you know, it's fucking hard to take somebody you're friends with and tell them they're wrong, or they're being stupid, or it's the last thing you fucking want to do. 281 00:20:37.955 --> 00:20:38.674 You know, 282 00:20:39.555 --> 00:20:41.555 it's club slop is like substrate. 283 00:20:41.820 --> 00:20:45.820 It's like the substrate of the problem where meaning 284 00:20:46.059 --> 00:20:47.419 it is addictive. 285 00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:50.539 It is not helpful. 286 00:20:51.340 --> 00:20:55.500 It is, you know, part so it's like part of the problem if you can't see beyond it. 287 00:20:56.375 --> 00:21:02.294 But it is helpful to onboard, right? It's helpful to onboard. That's right. And so we have to like, 288 00:21:02.534 --> 00:21:04.695 so the reason I do a fish podcast, 289 00:21:05.815 --> 00:21:16.869 I do a fishbowl. Everyone told me I was stupid for doing this fish podcast. Like why you you already got two podcasts. What the hell are you doing? Then this is like, now I got five. But like, why are you doing a fish podcast? Because fish 290 00:21:17.030 --> 00:21:22.869 is the band that figured out over forty years, how to create a network effect 291 00:21:23.350 --> 00:21:24.390 through grassroots. 292 00:21:25.025 --> 00:21:26.864 Okay, how do you onboard people? 293 00:21:27.345 --> 00:21:30.304 And then how do you keep them there while maintaining the values 294 00:21:30.945 --> 00:21:35.825 of that culture? And a band doesn't stay as connected to their fans for forty two years 295 00:21:36.304 --> 00:21:38.224 without that happening. 296 00:21:38.304 --> 00:21:44.410 And I thought that was I thought that was type of stuff I wanted to share with Bitcoiners. I want them to understand, 297 00:21:45.130 --> 00:21:46.650 know, how Here's question. 298 00:21:46.970 --> 00:21:47.850 Here's a What question for 299 00:21:49.930 --> 00:21:54.865 is better at onboarding young people? I'm talking 25 and younger, fish or Bitcoin? 300 00:21:59.185 --> 00:22:07.585 It's a really tough question. I mean, fish is really bad at onboarding people. That's the thing. So, like, the whole what fish did was, like, I don't get fish was just like, I don't care. 301 00:22:07.905 --> 00:22:08.865 We are who we are. 302 00:22:09.730 --> 00:22:11.249 You want to onboard, 303 00:22:11.330 --> 00:22:18.450 you're gonna, you're gonna follow the like, you're really gonna, you're gonna follow the rules of how people want to treat you at a show. 304 00:22:19.490 --> 00:22:21.330 Okay, but like fish 305 00:22:21.490 --> 00:22:22.210 never became, 306 00:22:22.975 --> 00:22:29.774 you know, they were never, they never became like, they never had a high selling album, they never got any industry support because, 307 00:22:29.934 --> 00:22:34.414 and then the fact of the matter is they also, you know, they never did what we want Bitcoin to do, 308 00:22:34.735 --> 00:22:35.134 which is, 309 00:22:36.100 --> 00:22:53.115 you know, fish probably topped out as a trillion dollar asset like Bitcoin did last year, something like that, right? And in some ways, I have said that that's like the best we can hope for in certain ways, like we get to have our Bitcoin is free, you know, we have our freedom, we have our ability to do everything within the most of the world doesn't care. And that's great. 310 00:22:53.755 --> 00:22:54.875 But so 311 00:22:55.675 --> 00:22:57.755 I think fish is terrible at onboarding. 312 00:22:58.395 --> 00:23:02.955 They're weird. Their songs are really long. They're not you know, they're not that catchy. 313 00:23:03.370 --> 00:23:04.409 Bitcoin is sounds way 314 00:23:05.130 --> 00:23:05.929 like Bitcoin. 315 00:23:06.570 --> 00:23:08.489 Well, but I mean, it's like, 316 00:23:10.169 --> 00:23:14.489 is it? Norm MacDonald had a joke about like, he's like gambling is a disease, 317 00:23:14.649 --> 00:23:17.770 but it's the only disease that could make you rich. 318 00:23:20.655 --> 00:23:32.015 I mean, so like that allure is always there. And I don't know how hard we even need to try with Bitcoin, because that's always the allure that's going to bring people in. And I don't know how much you want to stroke that because 319 00:23:32.389 --> 00:23:37.109 we can find ourselves in five years with the price having not moved like we are right now. 320 00:23:37.909 --> 00:23:40.789 And it's got to be about more. And I, you know, 321 00:23:41.269 --> 00:23:44.070 the onboarding is not the problem with Bitcoin. We know this. 322 00:23:44.389 --> 00:23:47.110 It's not the onboarding, it's then it's the rest. 323 00:23:47.765 --> 00:23:49.124 How do you do the work? 324 00:23:49.605 --> 00:23:55.205 How do you actually engage yourself to do the work? And I think part of you has to be afraid of losing it. 325 00:23:55.765 --> 00:23:57.124 Part of you has to be 326 00:23:57.605 --> 00:24:00.004 just so dedicated to it working, 327 00:24:00.164 --> 00:24:00.404 right? 328 00:24:01.370 --> 00:24:08.170 And so I focus on education because that's like my thing is Bitcoin doesn't need more believers. It needs more understanders. 329 00:24:08.250 --> 00:24:08.890 Yeah. 330 00:24:10.730 --> 00:24:14.650 One of the biggest revelations of this last week in the cold card

incident 331 00:24:14.855 --> 00:24:17.095 is the lack of 332 00:24:17.335 --> 00:24:25.975 understanding of how to do a simple transaction. The amount of people who had onboarded onto a cold card and don't know how to move their Bitcoin off of a cold card. 333 00:24:26.615 --> 00:24:28.935 That is a horrible travesty of 334 00:24:30.040 --> 00:24:32.360 themselves, but also us as a community, 335 00:24:32.520 --> 00:24:47.905 not harping on the fact that this needs to be practiced. Right? Like, sending an air gap transaction is not a natural thing. It's unlike anything else you have to do with a computer. Right? And so if you had to do it under duress, the chances of you fat fingering it if you haven't practiced are astronomically higher. 336 00:24:48.145 --> 00:24:50.305 You need to do test transactions. 337 00:24:50.305 --> 00:25:04.839 Take that device out of the drawer. Make sure that the screen still works. So many people have brick devices that they were trying to move at a time of utter panic. Like, this is Yeah. No. Like, this is like a firearm. You gotta practice. You gotta know what you're doing in times when shit is hitting the fan. 338 00:25:05.960 --> 00:25:07.479 If I had to rate myself 339 00:25:08.120 --> 00:25:09.320 on how I 340 00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:13.325 like, how did my setup perform in the last week, 341 00:25:13.565 --> 00:25:16.365 I would give myself a solid D. 342 00:25:17.005 --> 00:25:20.845 And the only reason I wouldn't give myself a failing grade is because my funds. 343 00:25:22.525 --> 00:25:27.405 You know, my keys weren't cracked. Did that. So in other words, I did enough cryptographic work. 344 00:25:28.580 --> 00:25:31.860 However, when I came home, I'll just admit this to everybody. 345 00:25:32.500 --> 00:25:40.740 None of my devices worked. They had needed firmware updates, or they had a new computer that didn't have the ports that I had when I set them up. 346 00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:41.780 And, 347 00:25:42.735 --> 00:25:44.255 you know, I basically, 348 00:25:44.655 --> 00:25:49.534 what I did do well, is I was, I've always been very good at with Sparrow. 349 00:25:49.695 --> 00:25:59.309 And so as a meetup organizer, and as an educator, I'm always whenever anyone asks what wallet should I get and learn, I always say it's Sparrow. 350 00:26:00.190 --> 00:26:03.870 And then, you know, I've never actually recommended a device. 351 00:26:05.150 --> 00:26:12.565 If anyone out there, I recommend a device, feel free to push back and let me know. But I'm pretty sure I've always basically said learn Sparrow. 352 00:26:13.205 --> 00:26:23.919 And I've always said fine, I use I said I use cold cards, but you have to learn Sparrow. And that's like the one thing I don't care what you do after that. And if you know Sparrow, 353 00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:26.559 then if your devices are all bricked, 354 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:29.999 it doesn't matter because you just bring your you you should I 355 00:26:30.320 --> 00:26:40.355 don't think you really understand Bitcoin unless you can just bring your keys onto an ElectroMallet or Sparrow wallet and move them like that. And you don't need the devices really. 356 00:26:41.155 --> 00:26:43.875 The devices are only useful for 357 00:26:44.915 --> 00:26:45.795 occasional 358 00:26:45.795 --> 00:26:46.675 spending 359 00:26:46.675 --> 00:26:47.475 occasional 360 00:26:47.475 --> 00:26:48.595 sat movement, 361 00:26:48.755 --> 00:26:50.919 right? But if you're going to use a device, 362 00:26:51.559 --> 00:27:00.599 you need to be testing the shit out of it, especially when you onboard it. So another little thing I had a I had a self setup multisig. 363 00:27:01.080 --> 00:27:05.145 That was the one thing I had a little bit of confidence in that one. 364 00:27:05.945 --> 00:27:11.304 But I refuse. That wasn't the place I sent my funds to because I hadn't tested it in a while. 365 00:27:11.785 --> 00:27:14.585 And I just knew I could be sending it into a fucking toilet. 366 00:27:15.870 --> 00:27:20.190 Right? Like if you hadn't tested like multi sig, instead it was self created, 367 00:27:20.190 --> 00:27:37.585 just don't want to, you don't want to send any funds into it unless until you have until you start doing this test again. So you know, you can spend out of it. And how could you be using a wallet if you don't know you can spend out of it? How could you have the confidence to put massive amounts of funds into a wallet that you don't already know you can spend out of? 368 00:27:38.625 --> 00:27:41.265 No, it's stupid. A lot of people 369 00:27:41.745 --> 00:27:43.265 did it very stupidly. Yeah. 370 00:27:44.360 --> 00:27:45.000 But I 371 00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:47.480 can't blame these people. What 372 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:50.280 I've been critical of is just 373 00:27:51.320 --> 00:27:53.160 just don't think it's constructive. 374 00:27:54.200 --> 00:27:55.800 Don't think it's constructive. Want 375 00:27:56.520 --> 00:27:58.760 to point out the stupidity, but I don't want to 376 00:28:00.215 --> 00:28:08.374 demonize people. But like the what upsets me is that we, I was part of a culture, and we were all part of a culture that, 377 00:28:10.615 --> 00:28:11.654 you know, pushed 378 00:28:12.649 --> 00:28:13.369 this, 379 00:28:14.330 --> 00:28:18.009 we push self custody regardless of people's ability. Yes. 380 00:28:18.730 --> 00:28:22.169 That was completely destroyed this last week, that idea. 381 00:28:22.570 --> 00:28:44.300 And there's a part of that that I believe in still, which is like pushing people to be better than they are. Like, you can do it. You just don't know what you're capable of. But then there's a piece of that that you have to follow through with people then. You can't just be some talking head on a podcast that tells people to be better. Yeah, you can do that with the people in your life that you're going to hold their hand and make sure that they 382 00:28:45.020 -->

00:28:45.820 really 383 00:28:46.220 --> 00:28:47.020 do 384 00:28:47.100 --> 00:28:53.020 realize how what they're capable of. Right? Or you you be their safety net and you Uncle Jim them. And 385 00:28:53.615 --> 00:28:58.815 you know what I mean? But, like, the the we had this culture that is just like, no. 386 00:28:59.215 --> 00:29:01.294 It's if you're not in self custody, 387 00:29:02.495 --> 00:29:04.815 you don't, like You're not a real Bitcoiner. 388 00:29:05.790 --> 00:29:14.190 And I mean, to some extent, it's true. Just I mean, I don't like the word real Bitcoiner, but you're not I I always like to say if you're not suing self custody, you're not 389 00:29:14.990 --> 00:29:17.070 you're definitely not experiencing 390 00:29:17.070 --> 00:29:37.149 the level of freedom. You're not experiencing the power the personal power, but you may not be up for that. Mean, you just A lot of people don't give a shit about that. That's the thing. I care about that because I've been paranoid since the financial crisis that I thought that the government might collapse since the financial crisis. I don't trust the powers that be. I don't trust the banks. 391 00:29:37.389 --> 00:29:49.515 And that's why I push myself to take control of my money to make sure that I am I'm the one in control. And thus, I've done the practice to make sure that I could send my Bitcoin out of a multi sig when I needed to. 392 00:29:49.915 --> 00:29:51.434 But a lot of people just 393 00:29:52.235 --> 00:29:59.595 don't don't care. And it's okay. Like, and so I guess I came to terms with this writing the book, because I was in the minds of 394 00:29:59.835 --> 00:30:00.635 institutional, 395 00:30:01.279 --> 00:30:03.200 like the kind of guys that are going to just, 396 00:30:03.760 --> 00:30:07.039 you you work at Microsoft, and all of a sudden, you got to manage like, 397 00:30:07.360 --> 00:30:09.440 100 Bitcoin or something like that. 398 00:30:09.760 --> 00:30:11.839 And do you care about self custody? 399 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:13.759 Absolutely not. 400 00:30:13.840 --> 00:30:19.335 But I was in the book, I wanted to at least let people know that the people that 401 00:30:19.975 --> 00:30:33.770 use Bitcoin care about that. But if you're not capable of holding that in your custody, you should not do it. This is like as a company, you shouldn't do it. You will wreck your company. You have to crawl before you can walk and you have to walk before you can fly and not everybody's ready for 402 00:30:33.930 --> 00:30:36.810 the being at the apex 403 00:30:36.810 --> 00:30:38.570 of what Bitcoin has to offer. 404 00:30:38.890 --> 00:30:42.570 You know, not every I mean, I think for myself, like not everyone's in their 50s, 405 00:30:42.730 --> 00:30:52.384 that has lived a life that has been around and been experiencing most, you know, if Bitcoin's being adopted by younger people, we have to be way more fucking lenient 406 00:30:52.545 --> 00:30:55.665 about what the expectations are for their glide path. 407 00:30:57.400 --> 00:30:58.759 Oh, 100%. 408 00:31:00.679 --> 00:31:01.240 It's 409 00:31:03.320 --> 00:31:03.720 don't 410 00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:06.919 One lesson I think I've learned in the last week is 411 00:31:07.320 --> 00:31:09.400 putting all your eggs in one basket 412 00:31:09.845 --> 00:31:17.205 might not be the smartest idea, right? Because if you've got a decent amount of Bitcoin, like, why not put it in 413 00:31:17.445 --> 00:31:27.190 I mean, there's different options now. There's more options now than ever before, right? There's collaborative multi sig custody. There's the multi sig you set up on yourself. There is 414 00:31:27.990 --> 00:31:34.230 multi institution custody now from on ramp. Like there are options and each has its level of insurance, 415 00:31:35.105 --> 00:31:36.385 whether figuratively 416 00:31:36.385 --> 00:31:37.424 or literally. 417 00:31:37.745 --> 00:31:46.145 You got to pick what's right for you. But I think I'll never again have everything in one basket like I did up until this last week. 418 00:31:47.105 --> 00:31:48.545 Part of why I gave myself a d 419 00:31:49.060 --> 00:31:50.740 is that the only 420 00:31:51.540 --> 00:31:52.900 only device that 421 00:31:53.060 --> 00:31:54.020 I actually 422 00:31:54.500 --> 00:31:56.020 wasn't a cold card. 423 00:31:56.260 --> 00:32:02.580 I ended up throwing everything on that because I didn't want to use the multisig. Right? And then I just said, holy shit. 424 00:32:03.815 --> 00:32:06.375 Oh my god, all my sats are in one place right now. 425 00:32:06.775 --> 00:32:12.135 And I actually don't know where this seed I know where it came from. It was a 426 00:32:13.255 --> 00:32:14.375 seed signer 427 00:32:14.455 --> 00:32:15.335 camera 428 00:32:15.840 --> 00:32:17.440 generated the entropy. 429 00:32:17.919 --> 00:32:21.679 It was a small wallet. It was like it had very little bitcoin on it 430 00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:30.825 two weeks ago, you know what I mean? And then it became the place where all my stats were and I hadn't thought that, know, I hadn't even thought about it. So I got into serious emergency mode 431 00:32:31.945 --> 00:32:35.305 remaking keys. And I did nothing 432 00:32:35.465 --> 00:32:37.465 on Monday and Tuesday, but 433 00:32:38.025 --> 00:32:40.345 fucking roll dice validate 434 00:32:41.810 --> 00:32:43.250 iancoleman.io 435 00:32:43.250 --> 00:32:45.490 guys, iancoleman.io 436 00:32:45.570 --> 00:32:47.970 is a place where you can validate, 437 00:32:48.050 --> 00:32:54.705 you don't have to make your seeds there. But if you're making the seeds from dice rolls, and you're using a program, like the program, 438 00:32:54.785 --> 00:32:59.985 this is going to sound bad guys. But if there's a program that was on cold card GitHub, 439 00:32:59.985 --> 00:33:01.505 called rolls. Py, 440 00:33:02.065 --> 00:33:05.585 and it's a way, it would be a way in Python that you can 441 00:33:06.200 -->

00:33:07.480 put your dice rolls. 442 00:33:08.040 --> 00:33:10.600 And it'll give you it'll convert them into words. 443 00:33:11.240 --> 00:33:11.799 And 444 00:33:12.840 --> 00:33:15.399 I and several people have validated that 445 00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:17.320 file, that program. 446 00:33:18.775 --> 00:33:25.255 It's I don't think it's on their GitHub anymore. By the way, it's got taken down, I think in the last in the last couple days. 447 00:33:26.055 --> 00:33:29.174 But reach out if you if you if you want that. 448 00:33:29.415 --> 00:33:29.655 But 449 00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:35.360 there's all kind of Yeah, all I'm saying is, there are ways that you can validate 450 00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:36.559 that 451 00:33:37.120 --> 00:33:46.160 these things are gonna work, you have to have a way. Okay? It's one thing to roll your dice. And then there's like, now what do I do? How do I convert these dice rolls into fucking words? 452 00:33:46.855 --> 00:33:52.294 So there's programs that are fully available that you can validate. They're open source. 453 00:33:52.775 --> 00:33:54.455 Don't rely on review. 454 00:33:54.534 --> 00:33:55.894 Just look at them. 455 00:33:56.215 --> 00:33:57.174 Look at them yourself. 456 00:34:00.670 --> 00:34:07.230 Do some tests. So I made like 10 dummy test seeds, I validate them all on iancoleman.io, 457 00:34:07.230 --> 00:34:09.310 right? And once I was comfortable 458 00:34:09.630 --> 00:34:10.830 that that worked, 459 00:34:11.715 --> 00:34:13.475 I took my computer offline. 460 00:34:14.675 --> 00:34:19.075 And I started making seeds myself. And it was like two days of work 461 00:34:19.475 --> 00:34:23.795 to get myself comfortable. This is a real measure twice cut once exercise. 462 00:34:25.029 --> 00:34:29.109 And I do think Bitcoin requires a certain amount of maturity. 463 00:34:29.670 --> 00:34:30.869 That I honestly, 464 00:34:30.869 --> 00:34:36.790 I'm not a big like, I'm a guy that likes to hit the Okay button the second it comes up. I'm like, okay, I don't even read them warnings. 465 00:34:37.190 --> 00:34:42.305 Okay, okay. Right? That's, that's the kind of maturity I have in the world. Okay. But like, 466 00:34:43.265 --> 00:34:43.985 you know, 467 00:34:45.105 --> 00:34:48.465 you got to do that work that validation work. 468 00:34:49.345 --> 00:34:49.665 And 469 00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:54.440 so that you don't, you know, in four years from now, 470 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:57.560 when another thing when another thing happens, 471 00:34:58.680 --> 00:35:00.040 you can ask yourself, 472 00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:08.575 do I need to panic? And so in my haste, by the way, I'm pretty sure I doxxed my, I'm pretty sure I doxxed my 473 00:35:09.855 --> 00:35:13.055 privacy coins that I had. Pretty sure I did that. So like, 474 00:35:13.295 --> 00:35:21.055 that's why I give myself a D, I give myself a really low grade, and the lowest grade you can get without losing your coins. I think I did all the wrong things. And, 475 00:35:22.859 --> 00:35:24.619 you know, you take the L's, 476 00:35:24.859 --> 00:35:33.660 I think, you know, you take the L's, they're not anything that doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And I had accepted the possibility I would lose my coins too. Actually, 477 00:35:34.220 --> 00:35:40.085 that was a reality for me. I felt like I found money when I didn't lose anything. Yeah. 478 00:35:40.645 --> 00:35:46.245 Well, you got your point. So giving yourself a D is a pretty harsh grade, but lessons learned, right? 479 00:35:46.725 --> 00:35:58.369 And I guess the question for you from the math side is what percentage of Bitcoin in general do you think needs to be in self custody to still have leverage over the black rocks and the institutions? 480 00:36:01.650 --> 00:36:03.490 Oh my god. Well, 481 00:36:03.650 --> 00:36:05.375 I don't God. 482 00:36:06.575 --> 00:36:11.615 I would I would move that question back. And I would ask on a personal level, everything starts at a personal level. 483 00:36:11.935 --> 00:36:13.375 Okay, so like, 484 00:36:13.535 --> 00:36:15.135 I don't think it's our jobs 485 00:36:15.295 --> 00:36:22.280 to be a cult to necessarily collectively fight BlackRock, I think it's our jobs to make ourselves as powerful as we can. 486 00:36:22.680 --> 00:36:28.840 So then the question and I think it's a very personal question as to how much Bitcoin does a person need in self custody. 487 00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:30.440 But 488 00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:40.105 there, I do believe there is an answer. And it's up to everyone to discover that for themselves. I don't know if it's 10% of their money or 90% of their money. I just don't know the answer to that. 489 00:36:40.665 --> 00:36:42.025 I thought through it 490 00:36:42.425 --> 00:36:46.425 analytically. And I would, you know, I think there does exist an answer 491 00:36:46.665 --> 00:36:47.945 that minimizes 492 00:36:48.425 --> 00:36:49.865 a person's time preference 493 00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:51.400 in 494 00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:53.960 their life. I think too little 495 00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:55.400 will make you 496 00:36:55.880 --> 00:36:56.920 paranoid. 497 00:36:57.800 --> 00:36:58.680 Too much. 498 00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:00.760 Do the same. And do 499 00:37:01.560 --> 00:37:02.600 the same. Right? 500 00:37:03.155 --> 00:37:07.555 So it's this is like the whole act of owning Bitcoin is 501 00:37:07.875 --> 00:37:11.715 the act of finding that balance and discovering yourself and 502 00:37:11.955 --> 00:37:16.700 figuring out where figuring out where your best self is. Yeah. 503 00:37:16.940 --> 00:37:25.260 And then once Yeah, and it takes our best selves to fight the black rocks. I don't know. I don't know that there's an answer like 30% of 504 00:37:25.980 --> 00:37:27.420 I it's 505 00:37:27.420 --> 00:37:27.740 going to be 506 00:37:28.734 --> 00:37:32.655 a dollar amount that just I think it's a market cap answer. 507 00:37:34.175 --> 00:37:35.295

Know, and then 508 00:37:35.615 --> 00:37:40.335 it's there's a market cap that needs to be held in self custody. So if 509 00:37:40.815 --> 00:37:43.980 I mean, do you know the answer to the question how much of 510 00:37:44.220 --> 00:37:51.820 Bitcoin's market cap right now? What is it? A trillion dollars or close to it? How much of that is held in self custody? Do you know the answer to that? It's around 50%. 511 00:37:51.980 --> 00:37:54.060 It's around 50%. Okay. So right. 512 00:37:54.700 --> 00:37:55.260 So then 513 00:37:56.255 --> 00:37:58.575 if it's 500,000,000, 514 00:37:58.655 --> 00:38:00.175 sorry, 500,000,000,000. 515 00:38:00.655 --> 00:38:01.615 That's held. 516 00:38:02.095 --> 00:38:03.055 My guess 517 00:38:03.375 --> 00:38:05.615 is it probably needs to be 20x that 518 00:38:07.135 --> 00:38:09.660 10 to 20x to make a dent. 519 00:38:10.300 --> 00:38:16.780 Like the answer is Bitcoin is not going to check the banks until it has a low high enough balances, 520 00:38:17.180 --> 00:38:18.540 right? Until it represents 521 00:38:19.740 --> 00:38:22.540 enough balances that 522 00:38:23.725 --> 00:38:26.685 the central banks can only steal from themselves. 523 00:38:27.485 --> 00:38:29.245 Now it doesn't have to be a 100%. 524 00:38:29.885 --> 00:38:31.165 It just has to be 525 00:38:31.725 --> 00:38:33.165 enough that 526 00:38:33.244 --> 00:38:34.365 it does the check. 527 00:38:34.940 --> 00:38:35.980 Right 528 00:38:35.980 --> 00:38:43.500 now it's like five. It's like nothing. It's a pea. Yeah, it's a fucking grain of sand. It does nothing to check to check the, 529 00:38:44.539 --> 00:38:49.095 you know, the finance the current system. So it needs to be probably 10 to 20 x is my guess. 530 00:38:49.415 --> 00:38:52.055 So going back to the percentage wise, 531 00:38:52.295 --> 00:39:05.350 actually, British Hoddle, of all people, said this on the Internet. He goes, if you really think that the system is gonna collapse, put a percentage likelihood to it. Right? And then use that to multiply against your stack and put that much into self custody. 532 00:39:05.590 --> 00:39:10.630 And I guess if you're like if you believe in the system, then I guess that that makes sense. Right? 533 00:39:10.950 --> 00:39:18.070 But then you have the opposite end of the spectrum where you have Matt Cratter coming out and saying, this is the perfect attack to make everybody 534 00:39:18.565 --> 00:39:21.845 move their Bitcoin over into exchanges 535 00:39:22.245 --> 00:39:32.085 in case there's some financial crisis and a bail in is gonna happen. Right? So it's like the whole spectrum is wide out on the timeline right now. I disagreed with both of them. 536 00:39:32.725 --> 00:39:35.440 Thing with British hodl's statement was, 537 00:39:35.520 --> 00:39:40.640 personally, I don't I believe the probability of the system collapsing is pretty close to zero. 538 00:39:41.520 --> 00:39:46.160 I'm just not a I'm not a person who thinks the system's collapsing in our lifetime. 539 00:39:47.405 --> 00:39:51.965 It works way too well right now to think that there's not a lot of runway still. 540 00:39:54.525 --> 00:39:55.085 Just 541 00:39:55.405 --> 00:40:00.845 don't What about AI though, dude? We just saw Citadel get attacked by AI, water plants in Minneapolis 542 00:40:00.845 --> 00:40:08.340 get attacked by AI, And now BTC pay server as of this conversation is getting attacked by AI. So I mean, that is a new paradigm. 543 00:40:08.420 --> 00:40:13.620 Yes, it is. But I mean, again, I would say don't ever underestimate. 544 00:40:13.780 --> 00:40:15.780 Just don't you cannot underestimate them. 545 00:40:16.485 --> 00:40:18.565 They have all the power at their disposal. 546 00:40:19.125 --> 00:40:19.765 And, 547 00:40:20.085 --> 00:40:23.765 you know, the again, this is sort of like the bad news. 548 00:40:23.925 --> 00:40:27.685 It's like the bad news of the fork, too, right? It's like if you are, 549 00:40:28.165 --> 00:40:32.005 you're relying on 5% of the population, and we have way less than that, 550 00:40:32.750 --> 00:40:41.710 you know, it's the there's too many people that need this system to exist. And they will, it's just not going to happen. I don't think it's going to happen in our lifetimes. 551 00:40:42.109 --> 00:40:45.069 So I don't I just don't know that it's a useful heuristic 552 00:40:45.069 --> 00:40:45.390 to, 553 00:40:46.155 --> 00:40:50.475 to plan for but that doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that 554 00:40:50.955 --> 00:40:53.275 I have I can be self determined. 555 00:40:54.395 --> 00:41:01.675 And that's really it. So there's no math again, it's like, is the amount I need to hold that maximizes my ability to be self determined? 556 00:41:02.240 --> 00:41:04.960 Right? Which means I'm making the best decisions. 557 00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:07.680 And it's not, it's not 100% 558 00:41:07.680 --> 00:41:12.720 of my assets, and it's not 0%. It's somewhere in between. And everybody is different. 559 00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:15.440 It's just how you're made up and how strong you are. 560 00:41:16.565 --> 00:41:25.125 You know, it's and then you know, you try to build strength to, I think, make that number creep higher in your life. That's pretty much the game. 561 00:41:25.845 --> 00:41:28.644 And Crater, what the fuck is he talking about? Right? It's like, 562 00:41:30.180 --> 00:41:37.460 yeah, okay, there's going to be money moving to exchange like this week, because people are worried, but I think that it's not going be long before they don't trust 563 00:41:38.180 --> 00:41:40.420 an AI attack on the exchanges either. So 564 00:41:42.755 --> 00:41:44.275 That's not an answer. Like, 565 00:41:44.515 --> 00:41:49.155 me, the idea I've heard this idea floated out that like, this is a state attack with gold card. Like, 566 00:41:49.715 --> 00:41:51.475 I don't know, it's hard to take 567 00:41:51.635 --> 00:41:56.995 that one too seriously. It

really does look like NVK and his fucking CTO were just 568 00:41:57.819 --> 00:42:01.340 really fucked this thing over. Getting high in Toronto. I don't know. 569 00:42:01.740 --> 00:42:05.340 Like, I mean, you know what you know what my light bulb moment was with this? 570 00:42:05.900 --> 00:42:06.380 I I 571 00:42:06.780 --> 00:42:08.780 you see did you ever see the movie Usual Suspects? 572 00:42:09.575 --> 00:42:16.695 I've seen the clips. I've never seen the the full movie. Well, the whole movie is basically like an investigation, and this guy's interrogating 573 00:42:16.695 --> 00:42:33.860 Kevin Spacey's character. And at the end of the movie spoiler alert. Yeah. He walks away like spoil spoiler alert, he fig he realizes it was him the whole time. And he told him literally told him all the clues. And he drops his coffee cup, and it shatters all over the floor. The investigator shot drops his fucking coffee cup and just 574 00:42:34.355 --> 00:42:39.474 did so my moment was that was basically looking at NVKs NIM as deterministic 575 00:42:39.474 --> 00:42:40.435 optimism. 576 00:42:41.075 --> 00:42:45.955 What does that mean to you? It means that he basically made the seed 577 00:42:46.115 --> 00:42:48.035 deterministic with no randomness. 578 00:42:51.050 --> 00:42:51.690 And 579 00:42:52.090 --> 00:42:53.530 this was 580 00:42:53.930 --> 00:42:58.170 that it suggested it was a attack and I think the guy is such a sociopath. 581 00:42:58.730 --> 00:43:00.250 Yeah, he's 582 00:43:00.250 --> 00:43:01.690 telling us the whole time. And 583 00:43:02.765 --> 00:43:03.885 it's just very, 584 00:43:04.125 --> 00:43:07.085 all I'm saying is that it doesn't help. 585 00:43:07.645 --> 00:43:11.805 There's so many weird clues like that, though. And the fact he's still retweeting. 586 00:43:11.805 --> 00:43:23.309 He's retweeting jokes about there being a chip within the sea plates, right? Like, you're not helping, dude. This is purely sociopathic behavior at this point. There's no other way to define it. Yeah, 587 00:43:23.309 --> 00:43:27.390 so like, and there's no benefit to me in giving him the benefit of the doubt anymore. Other 588 00:43:27.950 --> 00:43:35.035 than you know what I mean? It's just like there's no benefit to us in saying, hey, you know, it looks like what it looks like. 589 00:43:35.355 --> 00:43:36.075 Yeah. 590 00:43:36.795 --> 00:43:37.435 Right? 591 00:43:37.595 --> 00:43:39.835 And then there's just the question of, you 592 00:43:40.315 --> 00:43:51.450 know, was were they just nibbling on people's seeds for a while and then come in and suck it out? Or did they get wind that AI was coming in and they just sucked it all out? I mean, that's the really the to me, 593 00:43:52.250 --> 00:43:57.050 the questions are now, right? It's like, how the hell did this all now go on? But they 594 00:43:57.290 --> 00:43:59.369 made the seed totally deterministic. 595 00:44:00.325 --> 00:44:03.685 There's no randomness whatsoever. And so this 596 00:44:05.525 --> 00:44:09.605 is like we are, I can tell you, Rob and I are going to be focusing on entropy. 597 00:44:09.845 --> 00:44:10.405 And 598 00:44:10.645 --> 00:44:15.290 in fact, we I don't like the word entropy. I fucking hate it. I hate that. Like, 599 00:44:16.330 --> 00:44:19.130 think we know what we're doing because we've applied 600 00:44:19.530 --> 00:44:20.250 physics 601 00:44:21.050 --> 00:44:22.010 terms to 602 00:44:22.410 --> 00:44:23.770 it's just randomness. 603 00:44:24.570 --> 00:44:24.970 Know, 604 00:44:25.530 --> 00:44:26.650 it's I hear entropy, 605 00:44:26.975 --> 00:44:28.095 I think decay. 606 00:44:28.175 --> 00:44:31.855 You know? I think things breaking down and dying. I don't think random. 607 00:44:31.855 --> 00:44:38.655 Like, when you want Arjant, you want bigness. Right? Randomness is supposed to mean big. Right? Like, completely unguessable. 608 00:44:38.655 --> 00:44:43.980 Right? Like, that's the point of the the idea here, not death, destruction, breaking apart. 609 00:44:44.140 --> 00:44:46.300 That's exactly it. There's no decay 610 00:44:46.300 --> 00:44:51.820 of the quality of the elliptic sorry, the quality of the discrete log problem. That hardness 611 00:44:52.380 --> 00:44:53.660 has no decay 612 00:44:54.380 --> 00:44:55.980 due to a loss of randomness. 613 00:44:56.865 --> 00:44:57.505 Right? 614 00:44:57.905 --> 00:45:00.545 No, you can say that again to me. Break that down. The 615 00:45:01.105 --> 00:45:03.505 discrete log problem is what protects 616 00:45:04.065 --> 00:45:05.905 your cryptographic secret. 617 00:45:06.545 --> 00:45:07.985 But only if 618 00:45:08.785 --> 00:45:11.825 every all of the two to two fifty six, 619 00:45:12.640 --> 00:45:13.600 etc, 620 00:45:13.600 --> 00:45:16.960 points on the elliptic curve are equally 621 00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:17.920 likely 622 00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:21.360 and require brute force analysis. 623 00:45:22.240 --> 00:45:24.800 So if they're not equally like that, so that 624 00:45:25.325 --> 00:45:26.445 the way if 625 00:45:26.925 --> 00:45:30.845 the way that breaks down is if they it turns out they're not equally likely. 626 00:45:32.045 --> 00:45:34.365 And then it the brute force 627 00:45:34.765 --> 00:45:37.245 attack surface gets smaller and smaller and smaller, 628 00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:40.920 to the point where if it's actually deterministic, 629 00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:42.440 holy fuck, dude, it's like, 630 00:45:43.240 --> 00:45:47.320 it was because this was zero, there was zero randomness apparently. 631 00:45:47.720 --> 00:45:48.200 In 632 00:45:48.600 --> 00:45:49.640 this 633 00:45:50.775 --> 00:45:57.735 particular thing. I want to use your math brain break down this analogy, because I think it's so important to talk to normies about this attack. 634 00:45:58.295 --> 00:46:22.355 BPI put out a video saying that the if you compare each seed to an atom, right, the search space for the cold card

seeds was the amount of atoms in a virus cell. And in for a real true seed that's completely randomly generated, you're looking at the an atom within 20 Milky Way galaxies. So is it 20 Milky Way galaxies, or is it the whole universe that is the true search space in terms of an atom in comparison to it? 635 00:46:24.515 --> 00:46:25.795 It's probably 636 00:46:26.435 --> 00:46:33.690 I mean, I guess you're splitting hairs. Right? Yeah. Guess I should difference. The the important thing from a math standpoint, is that it's, 637 00:46:34.410 --> 00:46:41.130 if we say it's the atoms in the universe, it's really divided by two, because there's this thing called the birthday paradox. It's actually 638 00:46:42.090 --> 00:46:43.930 there and there are algorithms, 639 00:46:44.330 --> 00:46:50.445 it's really two, it's not two to the two fifty six. It's you get two to the two one hundred twenty two to the one hundred twenty eighth protection. 640 00:46:52.045 --> 00:46:55.885 I'm coming out with a book called on hashing that's going to 641 00:46:56.525 --> 00:46:59.165 have a section that explains the birthday paradox. 642 00:46:59.780 --> 00:47:12.340 But it's one of those things. If you've ever heard the question of like, a bunch of people get in the room, what's the likelihood that two people share the same birthday, and it's a lot more than you would expect, you would think, one divided by March. 643 00:47:12.340 --> 00:47:13.300 But it's actually, 644 00:47:14.740 --> 00:47:20.795 you know, it's much higher likelihood is closer to 50%. If there's enough people in the room at two that, 645 00:47:20.955 --> 00:47:25.595 that any two people, not two specific people, but any two people and that's 646 00:47:26.955 --> 00:47:29.275 part of that is in the elliptic curve. 647 00:47:31.630 --> 00:47:38.910 There's a negative y coordinate and a positive y. So elliptic curve equation is y squared equals x cubed plus seven. 648 00:47:39.070 --> 00:47:41.470 And I just like to say it's y squared equals something. 649 00:47:42.030 --> 00:47:45.790 So if y squared equals something, then it has two answers. 650 00:47:46.315 --> 00:47:47.435 Two 651 00:47:47.915 --> 00:47:53.435 possible answers, positive answer and the negative answer, and they're both going to square to equal that, that 652 00:47:53.595 --> 00:47:54.555 y squared. 653 00:47:55.035 --> 00:47:55.755 So 654 00:47:55.915 --> 00:47:59.915 it's half, it's basically it's it's half of the universe. 655 00:48:01.770 --> 00:48:02.890 And 656 00:48:03.450 --> 00:48:07.530 thus do 24 words and 12 words give you the same protection? 657 00:48:09.130 --> 00:48:15.925 No. It's a bit of splitting hairs. The answer is no, but for all practical purposes, no. I people 658 00:48:17.925 --> 00:48:18.725 are 659 00:48:19.525 --> 00:48:23.765 people wouldn't be wrong necessarily to say that it's essentially the same. 660 00:48:24.405 --> 00:48:25.045 But 661 00:48:26.165 --> 00:48:28.840 I don't, you know, at the margins. 662 00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:32.040 Why would you fuck with it? Yeah. 663 00:48:32.200 --> 00:48:37.000 So it's same the same way like you can roll a dice on a die 100 times mathematically, 664 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:42.119 you'll get the you'll get the two fifty six or pretty damn close to two fifty six bits of entropy. 665 00:48:43.205 --> 00:48:45.925 I rolled my dice a lot more than that. Why? 666 00:48:46.725 --> 00:48:47.445 Because, 667 00:48:47.765 --> 00:48:52.965 you know, everyone is like, you have to balance your dice. I'm like, I don't have to balance my dice. Just need to roll more. 668 00:48:53.125 --> 00:48:53.765 You 669 00:48:54.805 --> 00:48:58.870 roll a lot more if your dice are, you know, if you think you're getting half, 670 00:48:59.430 --> 00:49:00.470 half the 671 00:49:00.790 --> 00:49:02.310 half the entropy 672 00:49:03.350 --> 00:49:04.630 roll twice as many. 673 00:49:05.510 --> 00:49:11.235 And why does it 100 rolls give you two fifty six? It's like the log 674 00:49:11.954 --> 00:49:19.395 of six. So you have six outcomes, if you take like the log of six divided by the log of two. So if you just do the math on the algebra of what 675 00:49:19.635 --> 00:49:21.555 of how much you're getting, 676 00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:24.320 you're getting two point something 677 00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:26.640 bits every roll, 678 00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:29.200 if your dice are perfectly balanced. 679 00:49:30.240 --> 00:49:31.280 And so to 680 00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:32.480 2.1 681 00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:35.200 or 2.2, whatever that math comes out to 682 00:49:35.520 --> 00:49:44.085 times 100 rolls is two twenty two thirty, whatever it is, you get that many bits of entropy, you're well ahead of the two to the one hundred twenty eighth. 683 00:49:44.565 --> 00:49:46.965 You're pretty close to the two fifty six. 684 00:49:47.925 --> 00:49:52.325 Right? That's so that's the that's the intuition basically as to why, 685 00:49:53.270 --> 00:49:54.470 it's 100 rolls. 686 00:49:55.190 --> 00:50:01.510 And do you think that the way that you roll plays any factor into it? Or does it just mean you have to roll more? 687 00:50:02.390 --> 00:50:05.670 Just roll. If you're worried about margin of error, just roll more. Yeah. 688 00:50:06.405 --> 00:50:11.045 You know, that's it. And I really do feel like that's not like an ape 689 00:50:11.605 --> 00:50:17.205 can understand this. And it's almost like people outsmart themselves a little bit too much. I mean, I feel like, 690 00:50:17.845 --> 00:50:18.165 God, 691 00:50:19.140 --> 00:50:24.099 if you can't validate it for yourself, I just don't think any of this stuff is worthless. It's worthwhile. 692 00:50:24.099 --> 00:50:24.500 I 693 00:50:25.700 --> 00:50:28.500 know that hardware wallet 694 00:50:28.980 --> 00:50:29.540 should 695 00:50:30.980 --> 00:50:33.859 be required and expected to provide 696 00:50:34.415 --> 00:50:35.775 great randomness 697 00:50:35.935 -->

00:50:36.735 for, 698 00:50:37.375 --> 00:50:39.055 you know, for their seeds. 699 00:50:39.535 --> 00:50:42.255 But how would how do you validate that? 700 00:50:43.695 --> 00:50:47.295 So you know what I mean? Like, if there's no way to validate it, then what's the point? 701 00:50:47.890 --> 00:50:51.410 What is the point? So this is again, if you're learning the wrong lessons, 702 00:50:52.210 --> 00:50:56.450 the wrong lesson would be thank God I didn't trust NPK. That guy was a dickhead. 703 00:50:57.250 --> 00:51:02.770 I, you know, pat on the back, I was smart not to trust him. And so I'm good. No, that's the wrong lesson. 704 00:51:03.345 --> 00:51:09.905 Or this is okay, you know, yeah, this is isolated to this one thing. And if you didn't get taken by this one thing, you're good. That's not the lesson. 705 00:51:10.305 --> 00:51:12.465 The lesson is do you actually know 706 00:51:12.705 --> 00:51:14.145 that you're good? 707 00:51:14.465 --> 00:51:15.185 And how? 708 00:51:15.345 --> 00:51:15.905 Yeah, 709 00:51:16.865 --> 00:51:18.385 I'm sorry. But if you're trusting 710 00:51:19.050 --> 00:51:20.490 a hardware wallet, 711 00:51:20.810 --> 00:51:22.410 random number generator, 712 00:51:23.450 --> 00:51:28.570 without seeing without, I would say this without like a robust review. 713 00:51:30.010 --> 00:51:37.385 I don't think I think you're fooling yourself. Okay, but then I think the question leads to how big of a blocker to 714 00:51:38.025 --> 00:51:45.065 adoption and self custody are dice rolls, right? Like what percent of the people that you onboard into Bitcoin would actually roll dice? 715 00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:52.680 I think most should. I think most would. I'd I'm I'm what am I fucking crazy? Like, I just don't think that's a big deal. That's a tiny I think you are crazy. 716 00:51:53.160 --> 00:51:55.720 Think it's a But you're you're a mathematician. 717 00:51:55.720 --> 00:51:59.160 No. No. This is attractive to the ADIQ 718 00:51:59.160 --> 00:51:59.400 people. 719 00:52:00.585 --> 00:52:18.900 You know what I mean? I really think the mathematicians are going to get fucked over, because they're going to trust the math too. This is a thing that you could do to be sure that it's just basically nobody could recreate what you're doing. You're doing the thing, and no one can recreate it. That's the only way you know that it's good. 720 00:52:19.940 --> 00:52:36.655 I would bet you more than half the people who use a hardware wallet think the Bitcoin is on the hardware wallet. You know what I'm saying here? But we can't be like DEI here and be like, oh, we're gonna lower the standards just because we need adoption. I mean, that's not how it's gonna go. It's gonna be ruthless and people are gonna lose coins 721 00:52:36.975 --> 00:52:40.210 by telling them that they can trust things. That's 722 00:52:40.770 --> 00:52:47.730 why I have 2,000 followers and not 100,000 followers probably. But the reality is, I just don't

think we can do that to people. 723 00:52:48.450 --> 00:52:52.610 Can't in good conscience do that and to be like, you know, well, it's going to hurt adoption. 724 00:52:53.445 --> 00:52:58.325 I don't think I'm being piling an ish either to think that I feel like rolling dice is 725 00:52:59.285 --> 00:53:00.645 a rite of passage 726 00:53:01.045 --> 00:53:02.565 for Bitcoiners. 727 00:53:02.565 --> 00:53:03.845 And I'm 728 00:53:03.845 --> 00:53:11.590 going to make it the standard personally, and say, You know what, you're not cool. Unless unless you do it yourself. You're really not. By definition, 729 00:53:11.590 --> 00:53:13.510 you're not cool. Like you can't 730 00:53:13.750 --> 00:53:15.270 possibly feel good 731 00:53:15.830 --> 00:53:17.030 during a theft. 732 00:53:17.430 --> 00:53:19.590 Unless you did it unless you did that yourself. 733 00:53:20.070 --> 00:53:20.790 Yeah, I mean, 734 00:53:21.665 --> 00:53:24.945 I thought myself as a pretty hardcore Bitcoiner, 735 00:53:25.105 --> 00:53:27.025 but I didn't roll the dice, not 736 00:53:27.345 --> 00:53:31.585 yet. I I have them right here right now, right? I got them on my desk. 737 00:53:31.905 --> 00:53:34.945 I haven't rolled them yet. I'm waiting for the dust to settle and everything, but 738 00:53:36.370 --> 00:53:37.570 yeah. It's 739 00:53:39.490 --> 00:53:44.050 I do think I mean, I've I've talked to a lot of people about Bitcoin 740 00:53:44.050 --> 00:53:51.185 and tried to onboard them. And I do think you're right that at the end of the day, this should be part of the 741 00:53:51.425 --> 00:53:59.105 canon, right? This should be the part of the book. When you want to do Bitcoin the right way, you probably should generate your own entropy. 742 00:53:59.505 --> 00:54:06.600 But for mass adoption, but I guess that's not what we're talking about here when it comes to mass adoption isn't about dice rolls. 743 00:54:07.160 --> 00:54:08.680 Okay, mass adoption. 744 00:54:08.920 --> 00:54:12.600 You know, there's a great saying, I love it. It's that 745 00:54:13.960 --> 00:54:19.000 it was a question of like, how do you teach somebody how to build? How do you teach somebody how to build a ship? 746 00:54:19.725 --> 00:54:23.005 And the answer is you teach them to long to be at sea. 747 00:54:23.805 --> 00:54:24.525 Yeah. 748 00:54:25.245 --> 00:54:27.565 You have to want it bad. 749 00:54:27.725 --> 00:54:30.125 You have to want it really bad. 750 00:54:31.960 --> 00:54:34.680 And I think the motivator of that, 751 00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:39.160 it's either fear or greed. And it's fear that's going to push you that direction, right? 752 00:54:39.800 --> 00:54:40.680 For sure. 753 00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:47.400 This one is fear based. Yeah, it's both. It's both you got to have, you you got to be in touch with your greed, you got to be in touch with your fear. 754 00:54:48.555 --> 00:54:49.195 And, 755 00:54:49.675 --> 00:54:52.075 you know, they're both very good and powerful. 756 00:54:52.234 --> 00:54:52.795 And 757 00:54:53.275 --> 00:55:07.730 you don't rise above fear and greed until you have a bitcoin seed that you fucking trust. And you got you got good you got your you got a good amount of wealth in a bitcoin seed that you fully trust. That's it's like, you know, you don't rise above those basic emotions 758 00:55:08.050 --> 00:55:08.850 until 759 00:55:08.930 --> 00:55:09.810 you do that. 760 00:55:10.930 --> 00:55:12.530 Self actualize 761 00:55:12.530 --> 00:55:17.730 through Bitcoin. That's the beauty of it, right? And that's why like, yeah, okay, you know, who cares if Michael Saylor doesn't 762 00:55:17.945 --> 00:55:25.545 hold his keys in self custody? So he doesn't, he's fine. He's already he's a happy person. He doesn't need that personal power that I get. 763 00:55:27.225 --> 00:55:30.025 Know, but you don't get you don't get that alchemic 764 00:55:30.860 --> 00:55:31.660 human 765 00:55:32.140 --> 00:55:32.860 upgrade 766 00:55:33.740 --> 00:55:47.865 when you are relying on yourself and you realize no one's coming to save you when the shit goes down. And, you know, there's more to worry about than the price of Bitcoin. There's more to worry about than the Fed. Like, it's always like, am I solid? That's 767 00:55:47.865 --> 00:55:49.385 how you then that's how you grow. 768 00:55:49.785 --> 00:55:58.345 That's how you become the person that actually makes Bitcoin work. And that's going to take a it's just slow, man. Like we mass adoption 769 00:55:58.505 --> 00:55:59.785 is 770 00:56:00.730 --> 00:56:04.730 you can't even I don't even think self custody is part of the mass adoption movement. 771 00:56:05.210 --> 00:56:11.530 Right? Self custody. I posted this to LinkedIn yesterday. Finally wrote finally wrote something for LinkedIn. 772 00:56:15.345 --> 00:56:19.585 Judge me all you want, but there's people there that care what I about my opinions. 773 00:56:19.825 --> 00:56:20.625 So 774 00:56:21.585 --> 00:56:23.745 I wrote, I said like, 775 00:56:24.785 --> 00:56:33.300 I still think that the subculture of Bitcoin, the most important subculture of Bitcoin is the subculture that cares, that demands self custody. 776 00:56:33.940 --> 00:56:41.060 I'll always think that and I will always think that Bitcoin has very little value. Have an unyielding opinion that has very little value. 777 00:56:42.099 --> 00:56:43.140 If it can't be 778 00:56:43.745 --> 00:56:45.185 if it can't be that for people. 779 00:56:47.025 --> 00:56:47.745 Literally, 780 00:56:48.305 --> 00:56:56.065 gives a shit about it if you can't take complete control about it? You've got baseball cards, otherwise. You've got 21,000,000 baseball cards if 781 00:56:56.705 --> 00:56:59.790 people can't hold it for themselves and know that they own it. 782 00:57:01.470 --> 00:57:02.190 So 783 00:57:03.230 --> 00:57:04.750 to me, it's up to us. 784 00:57:05.310 --> 00:57:07.070 It's just up to the individual 785 00:57:07.310

--> 00:57:10.110 to do whatever it takes to make that work. 786 00:57:11.230 --> 00:57:13.630 It's not like mass adoption is not our responsibility. 787 00:57:15.145 --> 00:57:17.145 Nobody gave us that responsibility. 788 00:57:17.224 --> 00:57:17.865 Right? 789 00:57:18.904 --> 00:57:23.625 It's great. I hope it happens. I think it will naturally at some point. And I think that 790 00:57:24.984 --> 00:57:30.680 the work that the red team is doing right now is going much further towards mass adoption one day, 791 00:57:31.560 --> 00:57:32.120 then 792 00:57:32.520 --> 00:57:33.480 coddling 793 00:57:33.640 --> 00:57:34.520 people's 794 00:57:34.520 --> 00:57:37.640 weakest tendencies, I'll just say, just to get 795 00:57:38.040 --> 00:57:38.360 them in. 796 00:57:40.005 --> 00:57:41.605 Yeah. I mean, Bitcoin 797 00:57:43.285 --> 00:57:44.965 needs to be cool 798 00:57:45.045 --> 00:57:55.090 in some regard. Right? And I think the red team is one of the coolest things to come out of Bitcoin in a minute. It's way cooler than a treasury company. 799 00:57:55.330 --> 00:57:58.530 That's for sure. And the fact that a decentralized 800 00:57:58.530 --> 00:58:00.450 community could rally, 801 00:58:00.530 --> 00:58:03.810 get its smartest brains all focused in one direction, 802 00:58:04.050 --> 00:58:05.890 find the funding, get the tools, 803 00:58:06.050 --> 00:58:16.365 use the latest tech in the world to save people millions of dollars is an unbelievable story and something that I think will touch a lot of people outside of Bitcoin right now. 804 00:58:17.725 --> 00:58:25.099 It's really inspiring. And the thing is, I think it inspires. That's the thing to me that'll have a long lasting impact. I'm going to remember 805 00:58:25.339 --> 00:58:29.020 the fact that a couple of things that gave me confidence in Bitcoin. 806 00:58:29.339 --> 00:58:32.700 One was the fact that people who rolled their own 807 00:58:33.579 --> 00:58:35.500 that did roll their own dice. 808 00:58:37.915 --> 00:58:40.875 They didn't just get through it and survive, but they knew they were going to. 809 00:58:41.835 --> 00:58:44.875 It's like a big difference. It's a big distinction, right? 810 00:58:47.610 --> 00:58:53.690 It's more, Like, it's just as important that you're confident in your survival than that you end up surviving. 811 00:58:54.490 --> 00:58:59.690 Okay, right. And so I'm going to remember that that's how a lot of people did get through this with that kind of power. 812 00:59:00.090 --> 00:59:02.970 And then I'm going to remember that, like this, 813 00:59:03.684 --> 00:59:04.565 and 814 00:59:04.565 --> 00:59:06.965 I know the red team is not the only people doing this. 815 00:59:08.005 --> 00:59:08.805 Sure, 816 00:59:08.805 --> 00:59:12.805 I'm sure of it, but I just happen to be very close to it. And, 817 00:59:13.204 --> 00:59:14.165 know, they're finding 818 00:59:14.565 --> 00:59:15.684 vulnerabilities 819 00:59:15.684 --> 00:59:18.440 in a lot of

our, 820 00:59:19.960 --> 00:59:24.280 let's just say our friends businesses, and pretty much they're able to look at the entire network. 821 00:59:25.799 --> 00:59:31.400 Rob spent two straight days on libsec p. And I don't know if people are even ready to deal with 822 00:59:32.184 --> 00:59:35.305 the existence of libsec P two fifty six ks one, 823 00:59:35.785 --> 00:59:39.865 which is the cryptography library. It's the most probably the most important, 824 00:59:41.385 --> 00:59:43.224 most important library we have. 825 00:59:43.865 --> 00:59:45.944 You know, when I was in Prague, and I was doing my 826 00:59:46.910 --> 00:59:47.790 mathematical 827 00:59:47.870 --> 00:59:48.750 sovereignty 828 00:59:49.070 --> 00:59:56.110 presentations, I had a slide that I wanted people to know that Bitcoin Core isn't the only repo that we care about. 829 00:59:57.070 --> 01:00:01.470 Libsec P is a big one, too. And it's like, you spend all your time thinking about Bitcoin Core. 830 01:00:02.375 --> 01:00:04.535 You're missing a major, 831 01:00:04.615 --> 01:00:13.255 you're missing something major. And the fact is the distance between us and Bitcoin core is nothing compared to the distance between us and libsecp. 832 01:00:14.055 --> 01:00:15.415 Does libsecp 833 01:00:15.415 --> 01:00:21.880 touch anything else outside of Bitcoin? Like I honestly have no idea. It's all of the cryptography. It's all the cryptography. 834 01:00:22.599 --> 01:00:29.319 Every Cryptography for everything that all online security uses? Or is it just cryptography for Bitcoin? The Cryptography for for Bitcoin. 835 01:00:30.055 --> 01:00:30.775 Okay. 836 01:00:32.615 --> 01:00:36.615 It's a massive deal. But what he found was that was the most secure. He beat 837 01:00:37.175 --> 01:00:38.855 the shit out of that one. 838 01:00:39.655 --> 01:00:52.360 Because that was such a that's so important. Right? If that's like, it's like when the Ukraine Russia thing went down, that's like how they all got together and said nobody fucks with Chernobyl, right? No one's fucking with that. Right? 839 01:00:53.720 --> 01:01:12.730 Yeah, not. Maybe that's not the best analogy. Like, it makes sense. It makes sense. Yeah. But finding like that gave me a lot of confidence knowing that somebody like Rob and just because I, you know, we do a math podcast and talk about lipstick pee all the time. So I know how much it means to him. I know how important it is 840 01:01:13.530 --> 01:01:17.930 to him. So to know he's beaten the crap out of that for a couple of days straight. 841 01:01:18.490 --> 01:01:20.970 And he comes out and says that's the most secure repo we have. 842 01:01:22.244 --> 01:01:23.285 That feels pretty good. 843 01:01:23.924 --> 01:01:35.444 And what's crazy is that he didn't have the capability to beat the shit out of it like he did this week until a month ago, right? Until Kimi K3 and Kwen just came out. They needed these Chinese frontier models to be able to do all this work. 844 01:01:36.750 --> 01:01:39.470 What a crazy world we're living in. And it's like, 845 01:01:39.950 --> 01:01:41.230 again, I was 846 01:01:44.350 --> 01:01:44.990 just 847 01:01:45.310 --> 01:01:50.430 in a situation where I had to deal with my own keys. I didn't have the oxygen. I had to get oxygen for myself. These 848 01:01:51.150 --> 01:01:53.205 guys were just ready to, 849 01:01:53.445 --> 01:01:55.685 you know, like they're real firefighters. 850 01:01:56.245 --> 01:01:59.845 Really, they were already secure, strong and ready. And, 851 01:02:00.885 --> 01:02:02.165 you know, as 852 01:02:02.405 --> 01:02:07.285 we evolve, we'll have more people like that. You know, and I'm sure there again, I'm sure there were more people 853 01:02:07.790 --> 01:02:13.550 that were doing work like that. I've heard stories. I've heard stories about people in other countries too, that are just like 854 01:02:13.790 --> 01:02:14.750 grassroots, 855 01:02:14.750 --> 01:02:19.550 like calling everyone they know and helping them. Know, there's a lot of story. There's a lot of that going 856 01:02:20.685 --> 01:02:23.325 I mean, another good lesson is thank 857 01:02:23.325 --> 01:02:27.645 God Coldcard wasn't more popular, right, that they were not really 858 01:02:28.045 --> 01:02:28.765 semi 859 01:02:29.565 --> 01:02:32.845 failing business, I guess. I mean, especially compared to treasurer or ledger, 860 01:02:33.085 --> 01:02:37.060 like if it happened to either of those, this would be all over front page news. 861 01:02:37.780 --> 01:02:39.300 It's wild, dude. It's 862 01:02:39.859 --> 01:02:47.300 wild. But then again, don't get complacent because you had a ledger or a treasurer or a seed signer or whatever it was. 863 01:02:48.995 --> 01:02:56.195 It freaked me out. I mean, I saw seed made a tweet and I responded to it. And it wasn't a bad tweet or anything. But it was just like, 864 01:02:57.635 --> 01:03:03.555 you know, he was trying to basically trying to say, I'm glad we learned the lesson that it wasn't self custody that it was just a bad company. 865 01:03:04.140 --> 01:03:08.540 And I basically said, Well, I don't think that's the right lesson because it's not that it's a bad company. 866 01:03:10.140 --> 01:03:11.099 I 867 01:03:11.579 --> 01:03:15.740 don't even know if it's possible for seed signer to tell me how secure 868 01:03:15.980 --> 01:03:17.099 the 869 01:03:17.645 --> 01:03:25.005 my seed was, because they don't know the parts I use to make to Yeah, they have no idea. Right? It's not 870 01:03:27.484 --> 01:03:30.365 that's not I mean, it's not to disparage 871 01:03:30.540 --> 01:03:37.180 seed or anything like that. But it's to say we have to have a very much more we have to have so much more rigor 872 01:03:37.420 --> 01:03:38.140 in 873 01:03:38.300 --> 01:03:39.660 making statements 874 01:03:39.660 --> 01:03:41.820 that we're going to follow that, you know, the 875 01:03:42.380 --> 01:03:43.260 concluding 876

01:03:44.060 --> 01:03:49.295 concluding knowledge that we're going to take out of this. We have to be very rigorous. 877 01:03:49.615 --> 01:03:50.095 Yeah. 878 01:03:51.615 --> 01:03:57.935 And I think one thing that's important about the dice rolls is that it also brings a form of ritual and ceremony 879 01:03:57.935 --> 01:03:59.695 to this whole entire process. 880 01:04:00.015 --> 01:04:14.330 When you just get a seed off of a device and you write it down 12 times on a little piece of paper, it's like, okay, but people have no idea. They're like, that's the real thing right there. That's the thing that's most important. They have no idea. But if you're actually rolling these dice and generating these words from your own hand, 881 01:04:15.125 --> 01:04:19.125 It takes a whole entire different level of just importance, I think, in the human psyche. 882 01:04:19.365 --> 01:04:26.085 That's an amazing point. I actually love that. I'm going be building that in. I think we should be looking at dice rolling 883 01:04:26.244 --> 01:04:27.690 as part of 884 01:04:28.010 --> 01:04:30.570 rites of passage and part of the ritual. 885 01:04:31.210 --> 01:04:34.810 And maybe we should be doing more in the culture to celebrate dice. 886 01:04:36.090 --> 01:04:43.175 I've emphasized a lot that I feel like society has lost its sense of risk because we don't have coins anymore to flip around. But 887 01:04:43.975 --> 01:04:45.015 like, I haven't really 888 01:04:45.575 --> 01:04:48.855 but, you know, maybe I gotta talk about dice a little bit more too. 889 01:04:49.415 --> 01:04:50.695 Yeah. I mean, 890 01:04:51.255 --> 01:04:55.655 I mean, there's there's aura in these things. Right? They're they're sort of mystical. 891 01:04:55.655 --> 01:04:56.660 It's chance. 892 01:04:56.660 --> 01:04:58.020 Like, there's an 893 01:04:58.180 --> 01:05:07.620 edge to it. People play dice in alleys. People play dice in casinos. Like, there's a there's a whole entire mythology around dice that could be somewhat incorporated 894 01:05:07.620 --> 01:05:13.935 into into our own here. Yeah. Dude, when I bought my first when I bought that bag of dice from CoinKite 895 01:05:14.095 --> 01:05:22.255 Mhmm. Was, like, you know, four years ago. I bought a bag of dice. It's like a 100 dice. They sell it they sell you a bag. I mean, it basically looked like a bag of drugs. 896 01:05:23.280 --> 01:05:27.360 It just wasn't white powder or anything like that. It was a bag of little tiny dice. 897 01:05:27.600 --> 01:05:33.040 Right? But it looked illicit. It had this. It really did have an aura about it like, there's danger in this thing. 898 01:05:33.520 --> 01:05:34.080 Know, 899 01:05:34.640 --> 01:05:35.440 the dice. 900 01:05:35.920 --> 01:05:36.720 There's 901 01:05:36.720 --> 01:05:37.200 trouble here. 902 01:05:38.465 --> 01:05:40.225 It may not be the same afterwards. 903 01:05:40.225 --> 01:05:42.865 I, yeah, I love that, man. I love that. 904 01:05:43.665 --> 01:05:48.785 Yeah, I mean, the memes about dice have been really quick. I mean, I made up one entropic 905 01:05:48.785 --> 01:05:53.210 instead of anthropic and tropic is my new VC company. And 906 01:05:53.930 --> 01:05:56.090 but there there is this let's 907 01:05:56.329 --> 01:05:59.930 let's make this dice rolling ritual 908 01:06:00.089 --> 01:06:03.690 a rite of passage. Right? We don't have those in society at all anymore. 909 01:06:03.930 --> 01:06:10.245 And I think everyone that we can reclaim and make part of our own culture is extremely important. 910 01:06:11.445 --> 01:06:14.485 It's hell yeah. I'm gonna bring that definitely to 911 01:06:14.565 --> 01:06:15.925 my new bid devs. 912 01:06:16.085 --> 01:06:16.645 Cool. 913 01:06:16.965 --> 01:06:19.285 We're gonna make dice a theme. Yeah. 914 01:06:20.340 --> 01:06:27.300 What do you think of the dice that's like in a box with like a 100 dice or whatever and you roll it in the box and it all just lays out? 915 01:06:28.260 --> 01:06:29.540 Do you know what I'm talking about? 916 01:06:30.740 --> 01:06:47.595 Oh, you mean like they're kind like in a trouble bottle? Like a little Yeah. Yeah. Like, you're being trouble where you press the thing and it's just No. It's like this little plastic box, and it has squares for each one of the dice to fall into. And you've got, like, 50 dice in there or whatever, but you just shake up the box, and then they just naturally fall into place in these little squares. 917 01:06:48.260 --> 01:06:50.740 I think we need academic institutions 918 01:06:50.900 --> 01:06:56.420 to study the randomness of these things. This is your job, sir. This is why you're here. My 919 01:06:56.740 --> 01:06:59.220 daughter is a budding mathematician. 920 01:06:59.380 --> 01:07:01.220 And this is the kind of stuff like, 921 01:07:01.380 --> 01:07:05.165 we need people to say, here's the efficacy 922 01:07:05.165 --> 01:07:07.965 of rolling one die 100 times. 923 01:07:08.285 --> 01:07:11.005 Here's the efficacy of rolling 100 die at a time. 924 01:07:11.405 --> 01:07:12.045 Right? 925 01:07:12.285 --> 01:07:14.445 We need people to study these things, 926 01:07:14.845 --> 01:07:15.085 and 927 01:07:15.770 --> 01:07:21.690 help share that information with us. Maybe we need to do these rituals so that we just have more of a sense for ourselves. 928 01:07:21.930 --> 01:07:22.570 Yeah. 929 01:07:23.130 --> 01:07:25.130 Mean, Trace Meyer had the 930 01:07:25.849 --> 01:07:27.450 January 3 was the 931 01:07:28.335 --> 01:07:48.330 call the exchange. Right? Get your keys off the exchange day. We need a dice rolling day. Because all these things need to be practiced. Right? If it's just a one time thing, it's if you might study to do it that once, but then you forget the importance and the ritual if there was a day each year where we all just rolled dice and generated entropy and created some sort of thing out of it, it could be valuable. 932 01:07:49.130 -->

01:07:50.089 Fascinating. 933 01:07:50.089 --> 01:07:57.935 Let me say one more thing too about like what I what I'm learning, I think about how I want my keys to be set up going forward. 934 01:07:58.494 --> 01:07:59.375 So I 935 01:07:59.775 --> 01:08:02.255 have a hard time now relying on single sick. 936 01:08:02.734 --> 01:08:06.255 Yeah, I don't know about you. But like, I just have a hard time now. 937 01:08:07.440 --> 01:08:09.040 That's I don't know that. 938 01:08:10.560 --> 01:08:14.960 Mean, I think mileage varies. And if you're fucking tied got tiger blood, I think, 939 01:08:15.200 --> 01:08:24.135 know, go for it, right? I don't know that I got the tiger blood for single sig anymore. However, one thing I'll tell you one thing I can't accept. I cannot accept 940 01:08:25.095 --> 01:08:27.015 a state in Bitcoin, where 941 01:08:28.135 --> 01:08:35.415 we don't have the ability to take our key, you know, to put your seed in your head and go over a border. I think that's one of the 942 01:08:35.735 --> 01:08:43.530 top one or two most important properties of Bitcoin. And I'm not willing to give that up. And I was thinking really, I was really thinking through this hard. 943 01:08:44.090 --> 01:08:46.409 And I've come to the conclusion possibly, 944 01:08:46.730 --> 01:08:47.210 that 945 01:08:47.770 --> 01:08:54.574 the way to go is to generate again, generate your own single SID key with dice rolls, memorize 946 01:08:55.295 --> 01:08:59.695 it, but don't put any funds in it until you have to. Yeah, have one ready to go. 947 01:09:00.175 --> 01:09:13.090 And have that one to go and have that one be in your mind. So even if somebody reads your mind, they can't even steal your Bitcoin. Right? If they That's right. And that's what so, like, you know, the other thing I had done, I had memorized my seeds before. 948 01:09:13.250 --> 01:09:13.890 Uh-huh. 949 01:09:14.130 --> 01:09:18.805 And I was worried that, like, that was a stupid and dangerous thing to do. 950 01:09:19.285 --> 01:09:27.285 Telepathy is common, they're gonna be able to read your brain, no doubt. I'm just saying I'm a little relieved I can talk about this now. Because it's not 951 01:09:28.085 --> 01:09:30.260 a thing anymore. Yeah. But 952 01:09:30.420 --> 01:09:41.860 I had, like, I think you memorize a seed that's got no funds on it. I think that's now that's the up your escape hatch. That's your escape hatch. And it's perfectly safe. It's a perfectly safe thing to do. Yep. 953 01:09:42.500 --> 01:09:45.060 Yep. So like, I think we're gonna get a little better. 954 01:09:45.915 --> 01:09:50.074 I think in Bitcoin, we get better every time we go through one of these, right? Absolutely. 955 01:09:50.715 --> 01:09:51.355 Absolutely. 956 01:09:52.155 --> 01:09:59.515 Be a hard grader on yourself. That's but you know, I would just I would recommend that to people, whatever you think you did be a hard grader. 957 01:10:00.429 --> 01:10:01.389 Yeah. 958 01:10:01.630 --> 01:10:02.269 Yeah. 959 01:10:02.750 --> 01:10:07.789 Because I mean, if we're not going to take responsibility for our own money, then who is right? So you gotta 960 01:10:08.750 --> 01:10:10.590 take a hard look in the mirror. 961 01:10:12.190 --> 01:10:14.670 I'm curious, tell me about Bitcoin news. 962 01:10:15.375 --> 01:10:19.215 I know nothing about it other than I see it on Twitter. What is it 963 01:10:19.535 --> 01:10:20.735 to own an 964 01:10:21.135 --> 01:10:21.935 online 965 01:10:22.255 --> 01:10:23.534 news site like that? 966 01:10:24.175 --> 01:10:25.375 So 967 01:10:25.375 --> 01:10:29.295 we've got the website, we got the Twitter, we got the newsletter and the YouTube. 968 01:10:29.740 --> 01:10:30.700 We're 969 01:10:30.700 --> 01:10:32.300 a media company. And 970 01:10:33.500 --> 01:10:44.380 I took over in 'twenty three. I joined on as the video guy, started doing Twitter, and then bought out the guy who owned it at the time at the end of 'twenty three. And I've been running it with myself and my partner ever since. 971 01:10:45.225 --> 01:10:47.465 We've got a team of about nine 972 01:10:47.784 --> 01:10:49.145 or 10 freelancers 973 01:10:49.145 --> 01:10:51.784 around the world that help us, whether it's 974 01:10:52.025 --> 01:10:52.824 editors, 975 01:10:53.225 --> 01:10:54.025 writers, 976 01:10:54.105 --> 01:10:56.344 Twitter helps, thumbnail artists. 977 01:10:56.824 --> 01:10:57.225 And 978 01:10:57.650 --> 01:11:02.130 I mean, lot of it is just me being terminally online and 979 01:11:02.929 --> 01:11:08.929 people in my immediate vicinity getting tired of me hearing about Bitcoin. So I just started putting out into the world and 980 01:11:09.905 --> 01:11:11.745 yeah. I mean, we got some traction 981 01:11:12.225 --> 01:11:24.545 in the early days on Twitter. And now we're branching off into some other media, particularly the the YouTube, putting out two podcasts a week and a livestream and just really trying to grow that over there. But it's 982 01:11:25.770 --> 01:11:33.289 it's fun. I mean, I have a background in media. I've been editing videos since I was in eighth grade, had a YouTube channel when I lived out in China, 983 01:11:33.530 --> 01:11:36.969 and was making comedy videos out there for three or four years, 984 01:11:37.474 --> 01:11:41.234 came back to New York, worked in advertising and marketing and 985 01:11:41.474 --> 01:11:45.954 was at Barstool Sports, if you've ever heard of it right before working at 986 01:11:46.675 --> 01:11:47.715 Bitcoin News. 987 01:11:48.434 --> 01:11:50.755 So stand up? You were you into comedy? 988 01:11:51.440 --> 01:12:01.120 I did. I took improv classes upright citizens brigade. I graduated class one and then dropped out of class two because I was just not in the right state of mind to be trying to do improv weekly 989 01:12:01.120 --> 01:12:04.239 basis with some random weirdos in New York City. 990 01:12:04.560 --> 01:12:09.284 But I yeah, I mean, I I've

liked to perform since I was a kid. I've had a band 991 01:12:09.765 --> 01:12:12.085 throughout my teens into early twenties. 992 01:12:12.565 --> 01:12:18.005 And, yeah, now this is my outlet. Right? I think it's shitty 993 01:12:18.005 --> 01:12:23.150 and funny, maybe. But stand ups and improvs, you know, are like mortal enemies. 994 01:12:23.790 --> 01:12:24.349 Yeah, 995 01:12:24.989 --> 01:12:28.030 Now, stand ups know this, but improv people don't know this. 996 01:12:29.790 --> 01:12:30.829 But it's like, 997 01:12:31.310 --> 01:12:43.245 like, the improv guys that go up there and everyone's like, Oh, you're so good. Yeah, you did so good. Everybody's so good. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, and it's just, it's so brutal to be stand up. Yeah. 998 01:12:43.645 --> 01:12:45.965 I have a story 999 01:12:46.205 --> 01:12:47.325 on this channel 1000 01:12:48.090 --> 01:12:55.849 called and it's the fourth episode of fun. It's called the fundamentals of stand up. And it's a story about my first time going to New York and just getting brutalized, 1001 01:12:55.929 --> 01:12:57.610 just absolutely brutalized. 1002 01:12:59.210 --> 01:13:03.815 It sucks. I do think the stand up is more logical and mathematician 1003 01:13:03.815 --> 01:13:13.494 like, you're taking one piece one and then just whittling it down until you have every breath and syllable correct to get that crowd on the edge of their seat. It's very different than improv. Yeah, yeah. 1004 01:13:14.640 --> 01:13:16.960 It's just funny how different it is. 1005 01:13:18.480 --> 01:13:23.920 Was gonna say that was a little sidetrack, but how do you deal? So how do you approach pleb slop? 1006 01:13:25.840 --> 01:13:26.400 I mean, 1007 01:13:27.724 --> 01:13:33.644 it's been hard to see certain characters in this space really embrace it and then get, 1008 01:13:33.965 --> 01:13:41.164 like, validated for it, like the the algorithm rewarding it. I think that was a huge change in the algorithm in 2025 1009 01:13:41.164 --> 01:13:41.724 where 1010 01:13:43.380 --> 01:13:45.380 you saw these all caps 1011 01:13:46.100 --> 01:13:48.099 accounts really just take off. 1012 01:13:49.780 --> 01:13:52.979 The You don't know who they are. Yeah. I mean, basics. Yeah. 1013 01:13:53.940 --> 01:13:54.499 And 1014 01:13:55.140 --> 01:13:57.780 I mean, I've changed my posting style a little bit. 1015 01:13:58.100 --> 01:14:14.065 Mean, before, was all you always started with new or just in all caps. Right? And now instead of I dropped that and I just put the headline on all caps, and then I usually have multiple in my post, I don't just put, like, 240 characters. I put multiple paragraphs trying to explain something. So if somebody actually clicks on it, they're gonna get their background information 1016 01:14:14.320 --> 01:14:25.040 and not some vague statement that says Russia has their own clarity act. Okay. Like, what the hell does that mean, and how does that help me at all? No. Like, explain the fact that this means that commercial 1017 01:14:25.520 --> 01:14:36.105 companies can accept Bitcoin for international transactions, but the average person can buy more than $2,000 worth of Bitcoin a year. Those fine details matter. That's what I tried to provide to my audience. Yeah. 1018 01:14:36.505 --> 01:14:37.705 It's interesting. 1019 01:14:38.265 --> 01:14:44.399 I feel like it's a very simple vector. When I think about Pilebslop, I think there's one very simple vector, which is that like, 1020 01:14:44.960 --> 01:14:47.599 everything is either some indication 1021 01:14:47.599 --> 01:14:49.919 that we are mooning right now. 1022 01:14:51.039 --> 01:14:57.765 And that's pretty much it. That's the whole dimension. Yeah, the whole dimension of it, right? Everything means we're mooning right now. 1023 01:15:00.085 --> 01:15:02.085 I don't know, I find that that's Or kind 1024 01:15:03.365 --> 01:15:13.340 the common enemy says something stupid or easy to dunk on, like Jim Kramer or Peter Schiff or Jamie Dimon, if they come out against 1025 01:15:13.660 --> 01:15:16.780 Bitcoin, it's very easy. And that means they're bending the knee. 1026 01:15:17.900 --> 01:15:18.460 The two 1027 01:15:19.260 --> 01:15:23.260 vectors, right? It's either we're going to a gazillion, 1028 01:15:23.260 --> 01:15:24.940 we're going to a trillion dollars overnight, 1029 01:15:25.954 --> 01:15:29.554 or some villain is bending the knee. Yeah. 1030 01:15:30.755 --> 01:15:34.034 Yeah. And I mean, it's been interesting, like 1031 01:15:34.755 --> 01:15:44.980 a character like Michael Saylor, right? He definitely gets a lot of attention. So you as a site like mine or a page on X like ours, like, you have to follow his moves. 1032 01:15:45.460 --> 01:15:50.820 Do I think that he's the best thing for Bitcoin right now? No. But I still document 1033 01:15:50.900 --> 01:15:51.699 Sailor 1034 01:15:51.860 --> 01:15:57.864 in like, if he's on Diary of a CEO, the world's second largest podcast, we are gonna say something about that because 1035 01:15:58.185 --> 01:16:02.985 a lot of people do find that interesting and I don't think it's detrimental for it to be sharing that kind of information. 1036 01:16:03.225 --> 01:16:11.090 But I also do like our I mean, just to be frank, like our impressions are lower right now than they were in years in the past. 1037 01:16:11.570 --> 01:16:20.210 And but during this whole cold card saga, like, I was online twenty four seven, I think, posting the most informant like, relevant, important information, 1038 01:16:20.370 --> 01:16:21.410 and the impressions 1039 01:16:21.895 --> 01:16:26.695 were there. They returned. Like, the the community what did focus on the signal 1040 01:16:26.935 --> 01:16:33.815 rather than another Michael Sailor Moon video, you know? So I think it is important to to still be online and do these things. 1041 01:16:34.980 --> 01:16:36.500 So you were somebody that people 1042

01:16:37.380 --> 01:16:40.099 I I can imagine a lot of these accounts, 1043 01:16:40.100 --> 01:16:43.139 no one's going to them to try to figure out what's 1044 01:16:43.220 --> 01:17:02.485 Oh, wait, need actual news right now. We need to know what's actually going on. Yeah, I think we did that. I will stand up and say, I think I actually did a service for this community this last week is as much as people might look down on Twitter posting, I think I actually did provide something. I think it's a tough game. And I don't think you need to go through purity tests of pleb slopper, 1045 01:17:02.725 --> 01:17:10.060 like that. I do think you seem to be aware. I think think that's all you need to do is be aware of it. You know, you have to compete also, 1046 01:17:10.300 --> 01:17:11.420 you have to be relevant. 1047 01:17:11.740 --> 01:17:12.380 Yeah. 1048 01:17:12.940 --> 01:17:14.620 Most people don't understand. 1049 01:17:14.700 --> 01:17:15.980 They don't understand that. 1050 01:17:16.220 --> 01:17:17.260 But yeah, 1051 01:17:17.900 --> 01:17:21.815 know, and I think we're all trying to figure this out. I think you coming on with 1052 01:17:22.535 --> 01:17:23.335 your hat, 1053 01:17:23.575 --> 01:17:26.614 and just indicating that you're aware means a lot. 1054 01:17:27.255 --> 01:17:27.895 Yeah, 1055 01:17:28.295 --> 01:17:32.855 you gotta have fun with it. If you're not on the team that's having fun, then what are you doing? Like, why even do it at all? 1056 01:17:35.350 --> 01:17:41.349 So I started having fun for the first time, like a long time, I finally started having fun this morning because I found 1057 01:17:42.790 --> 01:17:46.949 a concept that I really liked, and I'm running with it. And it is the 1058 01:17:47.430 --> 01:17:48.150 observation. 1059 01:17:48.495 --> 01:17:51.375 I basically tweeted that said, just found out that 1060 01:17:51.855 --> 01:17:53.375 OpReturn is Jewish. 1061 01:17:55.535 --> 01:17:59.695 There's a lot of Jewish conspiracies coming out this last week, dude. Yeah. 1062 01:18:00.095 --> 01:18:08.520 Has a life Yeah, of because I ended up on one of those Schindler's List that somebody came up with, you know, like Oh, really? Where they just name a bunch of accounts and all that. And 1063 01:18:08.840 --> 01:18:14.600 only half of them are Jewish, but they're like, no, that guy's Jewish. Like Jonathan Beers, they said something like questionably Jewish. 1064 01:18:15.335 --> 01:18:18.055 You know, I would like to be questionably Jewish. 1065 01:18:19.255 --> 01:18:22.614 You got to change your name to John Stewart, then you'll then you'll be questionably Jewish. 1066 01:18:23.015 --> 01:18:28.215 I thought it was funny. I thought the idea of Op return, it kind of reminded me that Family Guy episode where 1067 01:18:28.730 --> 01:18:30.010 Peter decided 1068 01:18:30.090 --> 01:18:34.410 that he was Jewish and he goes to synagogue and he finds out like Optimus Prime is Jewish. 1069 01:18:34.570 --> 01:18:36.890 Optimus Prime rolls in with like his freaking 1070 01:18:37.290 --> 01:18:39.290 with, you know, the whole thing. 1071 01:18:39.610 --> 01:18:39.850 What 1072 01:18:40.824 --> 01:18:47.465 And like a lot, I guess a lot of what I found, like a lot of the real toxic shit I found around this fork happens to be there. 1073 01:18:47.784 --> 01:18:48.584 And 1074 01:18:48.985 --> 01:18:51.064 I finally started having fun with 1075 01:18:51.224 --> 01:18:56.199 just because I noticed on both sides were responding to it. Yeah. It's 1076 01:18:56.199 --> 01:18:59.880 like I hadn't had fun with this in a long time. And I think it is important. 1077 01:19:00.360 --> 01:19:01.880 Totally. I mean, 1078 01:19:03.000 --> 01:19:05.880 it's part of building a community, building a culture, 1079 01:19:06.040 --> 01:19:07.239 and it's 1080 01:19:07.800 --> 01:19:08.840 memes, jokes, 1081 01:19:09.395 --> 01:19:18.755 inside jokes. They're all and and that's why I love the Bugle so much. That's why I'm I'm rocking their hat. You know? The Yep. The fact that the the work that they put in for the 1082 01:19:19.074 --> 01:19:29.870 little bit of notoriety that they get out of it is just I think it's commendable. So many people hate them too. You know? And I think they do get a rise out of that. That's part of the enjoyment for them. But at the same time, they have 1083 01:19:30.750 --> 01:19:34.829 they provide a service as well. They are part of the Bitcoin immune system, and 1084 01:19:36.030 --> 01:19:41.364 I get a lot of laughs out of it. You know, some it's like, how do when we 1085 01:19:41.685 --> 01:19:44.085 when we do onboard people, right? 1086 01:19:44.485 --> 01:19:46.724 And certain memes need to be retired. 1087 01:19:47.285 --> 01:19:48.325 How do you do it? 1088 01:19:50.060 --> 01:19:56.940 There's no way to force retire a meme. It's just it's all memetic energy. It's all You all disagree with that. Right? 1089 01:19:57.820 --> 01:20:04.780 So that's really to me, that's always what they've been for the most part is like, when a meme is ready to go, like meme death. 1090 01:20:05.575 --> 01:20:08.534 Okay, they can put the nail in the coffin. 1091 01:20:09.255 --> 01:20:10.614 Basically, like, especially 1092 01:20:12.215 --> 01:20:18.455 rod in this area, where he'll just meme it into the ground. It's like, that's it. We're just we're 1093 01:20:18.455 --> 01:20:20.215 bearing this by overuse 1094 01:20:20.430 --> 01:20:21.630 into the ground. 1095 01:20:22.270 --> 01:20:24.670 And I've always thought that was the most, 1096 01:20:25.230 --> 01:20:30.350 honestly, the most genius and beneficial thing that they do. And they're both just solid 1097 01:20:30.510 --> 01:20:34.910 people like I, it's we're lucky that they're solid people. 1098 01:20:34.990 --> 01:20:36.304 Yeah. Yeah. 1099 01:20:37.264 --> 01:20:40.704 This could have gone very differently with their emergence. 1100 01:20:41.185 --> 01:20:45.985

Yeah. And I mean, it's funny is because when I I've been doing Bitcoin news since 2023, 1101 01:20:45.985 --> 01:20:48.705 and they came really on my radar, I guess, in '24 1102 01:20:48.890 --> 01:20:54.409 and more in '25. But, like, you I was always a little worried. Like, are they gonna just start ripping on us constantly? 1103 01:20:55.370 --> 01:21:02.124 It never happened. And eventually, they we started talking, they've come on my show and yada yada yada. But, yeah, 1104 01:21:03.005 --> 01:21:09.324 I mean, I guess at the end of the day, had to stand by what I was actually doing. It's like, no, I'm not creating unadulterated plebslop. I'm actually 1105 01:21:09.565 --> 01:21:10.844 reporting. I'm 1106 01:21:11.324 --> 01:21:12.525 sharing news. Right? 1107 01:21:12.925 --> 01:21:15.804 Yeah. Well, not many people volunteer themselves to be checked 1108 01:21:16.130 --> 01:21:16.769 by 1109 01:21:17.170 --> 01:21:19.570 by the bugle. Yeah. So good on you. 1110 01:21:20.690 --> 01:21:21.570 I mean Right? 1111 01:21:22.849 --> 01:21:25.889 Yeah. I mean, I I think in Bitcoin, 1112 01:21:25.889 --> 01:21:26.369 you 1113 01:21:26.929 --> 01:21:37.185 you gravitate towards some people, you know, in any culture, there's there's groups, there's clicks, and you quickly find out who who you resonate with and who you don't. And 1114 01:21:38.305 --> 01:21:39.425 I guess I'm, 1115 01:21:39.745 --> 01:21:45.585 I like those guys. Yeah. It's the weirdest thing in the world that a 50 year old guy like me managed to just 1116 01:21:46.230 --> 01:21:54.389 find them so like in person so fast. These were some of the first people I met when I got into the space. It's just I 1117 01:21:54.390 --> 01:21:57.510 believe in God for shit like this. Like, you can't even explain it. Yeah. 1118 01:21:59.094 --> 01:22:03.334 Energy. Everything's energy. And I feel like just been building 1119 01:22:04.375 --> 01:22:05.735 on their energy. 1120 01:22:05.815 --> 01:22:06.294 And 1121 01:22:06.695 --> 01:22:08.934 in some ways, I feel like we're all building 1122 01:22:09.255 --> 01:22:09.815 for each other. 1123 01:22:11.700 --> 01:22:15.140 We're all plowing the fields here and creating the runway. 1124 01:22:15.380 --> 01:22:17.220 We're all doing our little part. 1125 01:22:17.780 --> 01:22:18.180 Yeah. 1126 01:22:19.620 --> 01:22:23.780 Mean, if I can contribute to this movement, because I 2008, 1127 01:22:23.780 --> 01:22:30.175 2009, I was scared shitless. I And was listening to Peter Schiff and I thought that we had to get gold and silver and 1128 01:22:30.655 --> 01:22:33.294 buy a farm, right? Like that was the only way out. 1129 01:22:33.695 --> 01:22:35.775 Bitcoin gives you some hope that 1130 01:22:36.335 --> 01:22:40.895 there might be a different alternative. And if you can contribute to that, it makes you feel good. 1131 01:22:42.920 --> 01:22:49.320 And it's just, you know, it's going to take a long time and you got to have your boys that you have

fun with along the way. Yeah. 1132 01:22:50.520 --> 01:22:53.720 Bip one Tenet, they're not having fun, dude. They're not having fun. 1133 01:22:54.355 --> 01:22:56.275 So serious. They're like, 1134 01:22:56.835 --> 01:23:03.955 not just serious, but like dark, all the talking That's what I'm saying. It's like, this is the sky's falling. That's the thing 1135 01:23:04.355 --> 01:23:05.074 that 1136 01:23:07.160 --> 01:23:11.719 again, I hate talking about it. I'll just say I was I'm old enough to remember when 1137 01:23:12.360 --> 01:23:16.680 Bitcoin was the honey badger and resilient and that it required 1138 01:23:16.680 --> 01:23:19.640 free markets and people to act permissionlessly 1139 01:23:19.640 --> 01:23:20.840 to effectuate. 1140 01:23:22.635 --> 01:23:32.875 I remember when a small minority people couldn't take over the network without any other agreements. That's all. It's like, I mean, if you feel like that's necessary, 1141 01:23:32.955 --> 01:23:36.715 then you're pretty much going to be a doomer. If you feel like it's necessary for 1142 01:23:37.440 --> 01:23:41.679 Bitcoin tend to succeed for Bitcoin to work, then you are kind of a doomer. 1143 01:23:42.719 --> 01:23:43.280 And, 1144 01:23:43.680 --> 01:23:47.920 you know, look, we'll be here. So when you're ready to when you're when, 1145 01:23:48.080 --> 01:23:50.344 dude, I've made my mistakes. So many. 1146 01:23:50.665 --> 01:23:53.704 We can get to talk about this. Maybe next time I've made so many mistakes. 1147 01:23:54.265 --> 01:23:58.824 And I didn't die. You guys know, you guys are gonna be fine. You guys will be okay. 1148 01:23:59.465 --> 01:24:00.824 Okay, it'll be okay. 1149 01:24:01.680 --> 01:24:05.280 And I mean, one thing I just got to say to 1150 01:24:05.520 --> 01:24:08.640 finish the BIP one hundred debate is just like physiognomy check. 1151 01:24:09.760 --> 01:24:12.640 Look at your leaders, just physically look at your leaders. 1152 01:24:15.995 --> 01:24:25.835 I'll leave it at I more of just look at how they behave. Yeah, but it's all part of it. The way you look, it impacts how you behave. The way you behave impacts the way you look. All these things are connected. 1153 01:24:27.510 --> 01:24:32.709 You're sitting there in the dark and you look like you're about to bring a grenade to a wedding, then 1154 01:24:34.389 --> 01:24:35.989 got to question some things here. 1155 01:24:36.710 --> 01:24:41.989 I remember I was really into paleo shit in the prior decade. 1156 01:24:42.070 --> 01:24:51.304 And when the ever like vegans came up, it was like, people would say, Well, look, you know, they at least really care, they care about their food just as much as we do. 1157 01:24:51.705 --> 01:24:55.145 And that was like the way they describe them. And I feel like it's kind of similar here. 1158 01:24:55.890 --> 01:25:10.610 They care. It's like they care a lot about Bitcoin. I'll say that, right? I mean, they all do. And the one thing I'll say that

us, I think one good thing did come out of this movement. Honestly, this is, I think one good thing that came out of this is that if Bitcoin Core ever 1159 01:25:11.125 --> 01:25:15.285 is even thinking about doing anything that they know is going to damage the network, 1160 01:25:15.605 --> 01:25:17.445 they know they're going to get about 1000x 1161 01:25:17.445 --> 01:25:19.045 what they got here. Yeah. 1162 01:25:19.285 --> 01:25:23.365 And, okay, you know, and I thank you for your service. But it is, 1163 01:25:24.060 --> 01:25:31.180 when you say look at these guys, a lot of these guys were not looking like this before this incident before this episode. 1164 01:25:31.180 --> 01:25:35.260 So I think like a lot of these a lot of guys have gotten just 1165 01:25:35.660 --> 01:25:36.300 the 1166 01:25:36.620 --> 01:25:37.100 fear, 1167 01:25:37.755 --> 01:25:39.195 the sky is falling. 1168 01:25:39.595 --> 01:25:45.755 Exactly what I'm talking about. The losing, frankly, is just kind of making them deep. Paranoia, 1169 01:25:46.155 --> 01:25:57.969 looking at everyone as an enemy. It's making them a worse person in a certain And I actually feel badly about it. I do feel badly about it for a lot of these people, not all of them, but for a lot of them, do. 1170 01:26:00.370 --> 01:26:06.450 Look, it's going to be over fairly soon. And anyone who wants to come back and build on Bitcoin 1171 01:26:07.655 --> 01:26:12.695 account, everyone can be accountable and find their way back into a community. 1172 01:26:13.015 --> 01:26:13.655 Yeah, 1173 01:26:13.895 --> 01:26:16.455 just look at Mars. Just look at Mars Spitzbars. 1174 01:26:16.535 --> 01:26:17.815 Fuck yeah, dude. What 1175 01:26:18.215 --> 01:26:19.975 a redemption. What a redemption arc. 1176 01:26:20.719 --> 01:26:25.679 I don't really know much of his downfall, to be honest, but I do think the world of him. 1177 01:26:26.000 --> 01:26:29.519 Oh, well, yeah, I mean, he's redeemed himself fully, but he was 1178 01:26:31.360 --> 01:26:34.559 in a dark paranoid place, dude. Like, 1179 01:26:35.280 --> 01:26:36.159 he made some pretty, 1180 01:26:37.335 --> 01:26:39.255 pretty hardcore 1181 01:26:39.255 --> 01:26:43.655 crash out videos calling out people saying crazy conspiracy theories. 1182 01:26:43.895 --> 01:26:44.454 But 1183 01:26:44.775 --> 01:26:48.855 he's turned himself around and he's found his comedic genius and 1184 01:26:49.015 --> 01:26:50.455 he's being recognized for it. 1185 01:26:51.590 --> 01:26:52.550 He's the man. 1186 01:26:53.429 --> 01:26:55.269 One of the best podcast episodes 1187 01:26:55.270 --> 01:26:56.550 that exists, 1188 01:26:56.630 --> 01:26:59.590 you'd have to be a bugle subscriber for this one. 1189 01:27:00.070 --> 01:27:01.030 But when 1190 01:27:02.230 --> 01:27:08.284 Rod basically interviews Mars, and they go through a bench, they basically do an hour and a half on essentially group chat politics. 1191 01:27:09.565 --> 01:27:10.684 And how to get 1192 01:27:11.485 --> 01:27:11.965 the 1193 01:27:13.005 --> 01:27:14.204 most out of a group chat. 1194 01:27:15.245 --> 01:27:15.724 Genius. 1195 01:27:16.525 --> 01:27:18.045 And you see this guy, you see it. 1196 01:27:19.030 --> 01:27:23.909 It's psycho he understands human psychology. Right? And that's where the humor comes from, everything. 1197 01:27:24.389 --> 01:27:32.165 But my my dream podcast right now is if I can get British Huddl and Mars box Spitzbars on the same same show. And 1198 01:27:32.165 --> 01:27:38.724 both audiences from would hate it, you know, but I would just have a fun time. Get that done conducting that interview. 1199 01:27:39.445 --> 01:27:44.325 But yeah, man, I'm sorry, I gotta run. Yeah, no, this is good. I never asked you what your time. 1200 01:27:45.320 --> 01:27:49.079 But this is a good place. Good place to put it, man. Anything you want to 1201 01:27:50.520 --> 01:27:53.719 leave my fraction of an audience of yours with? 1202 01:27:55.160 --> 01:27:57.000 No, I just want to say 1203 01:27:57.240 --> 01:28:08.784 thank you to anyone who helped out in the last week. A lot of people stepped up, even if you just texted friends and family and made sure everybody who had a cold card was okay. You did your part. And 1204 01:28:10.784 --> 01:28:19.940 yeah, it felt good. It was like that was the best feeling in terms of community that I've gotten from this space in in a while. It's been a long time from the 2021, 1205 01:28:19.940 --> 01:28:20.500 like, 1206 01:28:20.740 --> 01:28:27.380 rah rah, we're all in this together vibe. And finally, it took a tragedy, but sometimes that's what humans need. So 1207 01:28:29.034 --> 01:28:30.154 so we're at. 1208 01:28:30.554 --> 01:28:32.394 That's where we're at. Awesome. 1209 01:28:32.394 --> 01:28:35.274 Thanks, bud. Cheers. We'll do it again. Absolutely.

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