Bản chép lời đầy đủ của S23E2: How To Be More Secure In Dating and Relationships w/ Dr. Amir Levine (Author of Attached)

04:28.159 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, and there's like good aspects to it, but also some problematic aspects and then we can talk about, you know, it's like everything in life. 04:28.179 --> 04:28.980 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a mixed bag. 04:29.040 --> 04:30.820 [SPEAKER_00]: It all started when I was a resident. 04:30.980 --> 04:34.141 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm both an adult and a child and a lesson psychiatrist. 04:34.381 --> 04:38.463 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was doing my residency in child and that lesson psychiatry. 04:38.623 --> 05:01.939 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was working, it was called a therapeutic nursery, where we worked with a mothers who were trauma survivors, who had PTSD and their toddlers, and helping them create more secure attachment with their toddlers, because what often happens is, like, you know, a toddler, they were like, scream, they will shrink, they will, like, and then, because they had PTSD, the mothers, they would freeze, so they would, like, withdraw. 05:02.259 --> 05:06.002 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you understand attachment logic, it's like, when someone withdraws, 05:06.382 --> 05:07.303 [SPEAKER_00]: especially for kids. 05:07.323 --> 05:08.844 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, no, no, but I need you. 05:08.864 --> 05:09.965 [SPEAKER_00]: I need the connection. 05:10.025 --> 05:11.727 [SPEAKER_00]: I need to maintain the back and forth. 05:11.827 --> 05:13.609 [SPEAKER_00]: So there was a even increase. 05:13.809 --> 05:17.853 [SPEAKER_00]: They're like their efforts in trying to get in touch with the mother and there would retract even more. 05:18.393 --> 05:24.719 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we did this attachment based therapy with the mother and the child to create a more secure bond between them. 05:25.059 --> 05:37.889 [SPEAKER_00]: And even now, when I'm telling you this, I remember a cell of the story that the work was so powerful in how we were able to really show the mothers, like sort of the logic of attachment and how to make them bond in a more secure way. 05:37.909 --> 05:42.892 [SPEAKER_00]: I loved it so much that I did something you never have time to do in all of these rotations. 05:42.912 --> 05:44.754 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was like a three-month rotation. 05:44.894 --> 05:49.297 [SPEAKER_00]: In all of those rotations, you get this really long list of suggested readings. 05:49.437 --> 06:07.142 [SPEAKER_00]: Who has time as a resident to read the whole suggests later, it's like, but I read everything on that list and that's where I came across this whole, this whole science of adult attachment, so textbooks and I read everything there and that's where I like, whoa, it's not just between parents and kids. 06:07.542 --> 06:11.424 [SPEAKER_00]: the same North Secretary, the same system, also exists. 06:11.804 --> 06:26.652 [SPEAKER_00]: And the same logic exists also for us and adults, and if we can really show people that logic, very, very similar to the way that you actually help the mothers and the kids bond better, we can help people bond

better, have better relationships. 06:26.892 --> 06:34.517 [SPEAKER_02]: Wow, that's uh, so great to hear the origin story because now it's bringing up so many questions for me. 06:34.757 --> 06:42.642 [SPEAKER_02]: Me between a mother and a child, there's a level of it's a different relationship dynamic than two adults in a romantic relationship. 06:43.063 --> 06:50.868 [SPEAKER_02]: But do you think that most romantic relationships will have some variation of that mother and child dynamic? 06:51.188 --> 07:00.130 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's the, that's where it's like really the logic, the logic behind how we respond in romantic relationships. 07:00.290 --> 07:02.351 [SPEAKER_00]: That stays that remains. 07:02.771 --> 07:08.252 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's actually easier to see when you look at like the way the children respond with parents. 07:08.572 --> 07:16.154 [SPEAKER_00]: So there are a few things about the logic of choosing someone out and like making them special and unique. 07:16.354 --> 07:18.075 [SPEAKER_00]: And the fact that if they disappear, 07:18.695 --> 07:25.380 [SPEAKER_00]: it will cause us to have like an unease like it will affect our nervous system if they're not available to us. 07:25.480 --> 07:40.290 [SPEAKER_00]: That logic remains throughout and the idea that we rely because these attachment styles that we rely on the other person for our emotional stability. 07:40.570 --> 07:41.291 [SPEAKER_00]: I know people don't 07:43.552 --> 07:46.534 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm an island, I can take care of myself. 07:47.074 --> 07:59.061 [SPEAKER_00]: Like people we should be, I don't know, codependent, all those words that are thrown around if we understand our biology, we can know that we're social beings, and we rely on others to regulate our affect. 07:59.141 --> 08:07.686 [SPEAKER_00]: We all know what it's like to either get, like if something bad happens to us, like if we reach out to someone, and we usually know exactly who to reach out to. 08:07.726 --> 08:09.267 [SPEAKER_00]: We have an attachment hierarchy in our head. 08:09.547 --> 08:13.852 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you guys know, if I told you, you know, you soundly bad happen to you, who do you go to? 08:14.212 --> 08:20.279 [SPEAKER_00]: You have a list of number one, two or three, and maybe for different things, you'll choose different people, but the list is there. 08:20.799 --> 08:25.685 [SPEAKER_00]: And if we're securely attached to them, sometimes only takes is a word or single hug. 08:25.945 --> 08:31.186 [SPEAKER_00]: even them just answering the phone can we can like relax and feel better. 08:31.606 --> 08:35.867 [SPEAKER_00]: So that logic that relationships help us regulate our affect. 08:36.107 --> 08:43.449 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a very sort of nice, sort of like higher high words of saying basically relationships help us feel more emotionally regulated. 08:43.949 --> 08:49.811 [SPEAKER_00]: And also that there are specific people in our lives that are

special and important. 08:50.131 --> 08:50.731 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not just 08:56.132 --> 09:06.874 [SPEAKER_00]: that in our brain that we're very well aware of and we kind of like where they are that they're okay there's like these invisible connections that connect us to all these people. 09:07.174 --> 09:21.337 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm I'm curious here take on this because you just said touch became like this massive breakout for better for worse and in our world we hear a lot of people that feel like they can't start dating until they're secure. 09:21.717 --> 09:34.728 [SPEAKER_01]: like they're fully secure and at least our take is you know of course let's strive for that but we don't want you to like hold off on dayday and you'll never be 100% secure and we don't want that to g-rail you. 09:34.848 --> 09:36.149 [SPEAKER_01]: What's your take on that? 09:36.549 --> 09:43.255 [SPEAKER_00]: I have a very specific take on it and I think it's unlike the same continuation of in my number I hear that I uh 09:43.615 --> 09:51.418 [SPEAKER_00]: I just, I don't know, I kind of like, gristle, I, yeah, I have a strong reaction to that because again, it doesn't follow the attachment logic. 09:51.578 --> 10:00.882 [SPEAKER_00]: And so this, it goes like continuation of this whole idea that you have to learn to love yourself first before you can let others people love you and already that come from. 10:00.942 --> 10:02.183 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know where that comes from. 10:02.823 --> 10:11.069 [SPEAKER_00]: You may think that, I mean, I'm just like telling you my take on it is that our brains, they don't live in solitude. 10:11.430 --> 10:17.014 [SPEAKER_00]: We interpret situation based on who is the person on the other side. 10:17.294 --> 10:21.297 [SPEAKER_00]: So instead of like trying to become more secure yourself, 10:21.657 --> 10:31.101 [SPEAKER_00]: And then finding another person to be secure with, you can find the right person who will bring out your secure side. 10:31.382 --> 10:36.604 [SPEAKER_00]: Now we know a lot more about attachment styles and they've studied also attachment styles in different ways. 10:36.984 --> 10:40.926 [SPEAKER_00]: And so what we know is that we can have different attachment styles with different people. 10:41.206 --> 10:46.728 [SPEAKER_01]: That's really good to hear from you because every time we hear that we're like, I don't know if that's how it was intended in this book. 10:47.008 --> 10:48.508 [SPEAKER_01]: No, yeah, not at all. 10:49.049 --> 10:53.330 [SPEAKER_00]: No, actually, our interaction and that's what secure is all about. 10:53.390 --> 10:58.812 [SPEAKER_00]: And also, that's why I even, I put like this new quiz online on my website. 10:59.052 --> 11:02.673 [SPEAKER_00]: We can actually go and get a map of all your different attachments. 11:02.953 --> 11:07.835 [SPEAKER_00]: And what you do is there's a dropdown menu and you can choose my general attachment style. 11:08.235 --> 11:10.357 [SPEAKER_00]: like how generally you feel about different people. 11:10.777 --> 11:18.382 [SPEAKER_00]: But then also with your spouse, when your friend, with your siblings, I even put like with your pet because I have a dog that I love. 11:18.462 --> 11:24.166 [SPEAKER_00]: And you can get actually a map of how these different relationships map out is in your attachment style. 11:24.466 --> 11:25.147 [SPEAKER_00]: And so far, 11:25.887 --> 11:29.188 [SPEAKER_00]: More than, like, it's been filled out more than a hundred thousand times. 11:29.248 --> 11:29.508 [SPEAKER_02]: Wow. 11:29.588 --> 11:34.069 [SPEAKER_00]: Even people who are very secure generally have some insecure relationships in their lives. 11:34.289 --> 11:37.969 [SPEAKER_00]: And vice versa, people who will generally say, I'm like suspicious of people. 11:38.049 --> 11:42.590 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like have some secure, and claim some secure people under a lot. 11:43.010 --> 11:44.610 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what secure season is on. 11:44.670 --> 11:47.391 [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, okay, let's, we, we get your map. 11:47.571 --> 11:50.811 [SPEAKER_00]: And you get your, a whole idea where your attachment is. 11:50.952 --> 11:53.492 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we start working with it to help you become more secure. 11:54.012 --> 11:55.413 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, well, that's, that's good. 11:55.653 --> 12:06.039 [SPEAKER_02]: That's really hopeful for people to hear that because I do think people treat a secure attachment like enlightenment, like it's unreachable, but it's something they work for. 12:06.319 --> 12:07.420 [SPEAKER_02]: They're entire lives. 12:07.460 --> 12:12.502 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm just working towards secure attachment, but you're saying it doesn't have to be on a pedestal. 12:12.563 --> 12:20.347 [SPEAKER_02]: It's actually probably there is some sort of secure attachment all of our lives, but it's not transcending to the other parts. 12:20.727 --> 12:35.355 [SPEAKER_02]: So there is a way to create a more secure life and actually in your latest study you say the research shows that anyone can learn how to create a more secure life so tell us more about that definitely so what the research really shows is that. 12:43.539 --> 12:50.709 [SPEAKER_00]: It's really got comes from this idea that we all have also some what have come to called secure kernels within us. 12:51.551 --> 12:56.157 [SPEAKER_00]: And these are either past or present relationships where people were really good to us. 12:56.437 --> 12:58.741 [SPEAKER_00]: And in my practice, in my treatment, 12:59.722 --> 13:22.121 [SPEAKER_00]: I encourage people like we look for those stories of people who some people that had amazing grandparents, some amazing parents or siblings or even a teacher and mentor those people that really saw us that like we're secure with us that really allowed us to sort of flourish and then those are the we internalize some of those relationships and we 13:22.281 --> 13:29.291

[SPEAKER_00]: carry them with us as a kernel, and we can use that as a potential to develop and become more secure. 13:29.611 --> 13:33.457 [SPEAKER_00]: And we can cultivate the secure relationships in our lives now. 13:33.617 --> 13:39.045 [SPEAKER_00]: So, though, like you said, no, you don't have to be perfectly secure first before you go out and start dating. 13:39.305 --> 13:45.087 [SPEAKER_00]: But you can definitely create what I've come to call a secure village that will support you. 13:45.107 --> 13:48.548 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's actually really key for getting because dating is so hard. 13:48.888 --> 13:52.810 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's really important to do. 13:53.030 --> 13:54.170 [SPEAKER_01]: We're so glad you said that. 13:54.190 --> 14:01.333 [SPEAKER_01]: Because that's the thing that we've been saying to you to people, it's like, you don't have to measure your ability to be in a relationship just on your daily life. 14:01.913 --> 14:04.374 [SPEAKER_01]: It can be on all the relationships in your life 14:07.535 --> 14:16.661 [SPEAKER_01]: I think what was so fascinating and like the book, the first part of your book is like you really talk about like how we can influence our brains to be more secure. 14:16.801 --> 14:19.182 [SPEAKER_01]: And you talk about the cyberball experiment. 14:19.262 --> 14:23.165 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell us a little more about that and like what it taught you about attachment? 14:23.425 --> 14:36.133 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, so the sub-able experiment, it's like really, I was shocked when I read all the research there because it just shows you that the brain really hates low exclusion or the many people ignore us. 14:36.313 --> 14:37.454 [SPEAKER_00]: And we can't really help it. 14:37.734 --> 14:45.759 [SPEAKER_00]: And the way that they discovered it is when they took to get mad, it's really something that you can look even now if you Google it, you can see it online to actual. 14:46.179 --> 14:57.290 [SPEAKER_00]: It's called this subable experiment where you are playing a game, a video game of catch with two other sort of like stick figures and you throw the ball to one, they throw it to the other and they throw it to you. 14:57.590 --> 15:02.155 [SPEAKER_00]: And then all of a sudden they stop going to ball in your direction and they just play between them. 15:02.655 --> 15:15.799 [SPEAKER_00]: And what the research shows is that like areas of painful distress and and self scrutiny come online and and it also shows that we can't really help it like in one version of the study. 15:15.979 --> 15:29.963 [SPEAKER_00]: They told you okay whenever their ball is not going to be thrown in your direction we're going to give you a little prize money so it's kind of like soften the blow and it's okay what do I care yeah play amongst yourself I'm going to get money it's like no he didn't matter money didn't matter and then. 15:30.443 --> 15:38.973 [SPEAKER_00]: They took him in then further and they

told minority students that the other two players are members of the KKK. 15:39.053 --> 15:39.974 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a story. 15:39.994 --> 15:40.775 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I know. 15:40.955 --> 15:41.275 [SPEAKER_00]: I know. 15:41.295 --> 15:42.477 [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of a stream. 15:42.717 --> 15:48.003 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you would think, okay, what do I care if these despicable people are including me in their game or not? 15:48.323 --> 15:59.278 [SPEAKER_00]: But the brain cares and the same effect, they saw the same effect happen again and again and again and again in that people feel less self esteem, less in control over lives, like these less meaningful. 15:59.518 --> 16:03.464 [SPEAKER_00]: And I never thought that how connected I am to others and how included I am. 16:03.724 --> 16:09.288 [SPEAKER_00]: would have such a direct effect on my self esteem or like depth of life is meaningful. 16:09.588 --> 16:14.451 [SPEAKER_00]: But apparently when we feel connected in that way, it really affects us. 16:14.631 --> 16:16.513 [SPEAKER_00]: So they did another version of this game. 16:16.553 --> 16:17.834 [SPEAKER_00]: It's called a reverse cyberball. 16:17.854 --> 16:19.535 [SPEAKER_00]: We're now you're standing in the middle. 16:19.555 --> 16:21.556 [SPEAKER_00]: It's an agility imagine that you're in the middle. 16:21.836 --> 16:24.178 [SPEAKER_00]: And then two other people on each side of you. 16:24.478 --> 16:26.780 [SPEAKER_00]: And you throw it up all the 1% they throw it to you. 16:27.140 --> 16:31.483 [SPEAKER_00]: You turn around throwing through the eggs and so you're hyper included in the brain loves us. 16:31.643 --> 16:32.663 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to leave the love. 16:32.703 --> 16:37.484 [SPEAKER_02]: Especially Julie, if you know her, actually, that's like that. 16:37.564 --> 16:39.885 [SPEAKER_02]: It needs to fit a bit more inside your personality. 16:39.925 --> 16:41.685 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like that's great. 16:41.745 --> 16:43.926 [SPEAKER_00]: So you're brain knows how to start a new idea. 16:44.066 --> 16:44.766 [SPEAKER_01]: I bring you this. 16:45.286 --> 16:46.386 [SPEAKER_00]: They're brain love that. 16:46.466 --> 16:53.208 [SPEAKER_00]: And people report feeling more self-esteem, more that they're more controller of their life, their life is more meaningful. 16:53.508 --> 16:59.990 [SPEAKER_00]: Who would have imagined that the meaning of life will be derived from how connected this particular, so insecure. 17:01.930 --> 17:04.973 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you create this hyper connected life for themselves? 17:05.113 --> 17:14.242 [SPEAKER_00]: And that would really help you when you go out dating when you have They're feeling like I'm connected to a lot of other people and so you're still stronger Because dating is hard. 17:14.502 --> 17:15.423 [SPEAKER_00]: You need strength. 17:15.823 --> 17:19.506 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, is that why in dating like when you do date someone? 17:19.526 --> 17:22.189 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't even like them, but you're still like really hard. 17:22.229 --> 17:24.911 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they don't return the Felix of course. 17:25.152 --> 17:25.392 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 17:25.412 --> 17:26.553 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's devastating 17:26.893 --> 17:31.718 [SPEAKER_00]: And there are studies actually that look specifically at dating and rejection. 17:32.278 --> 17:36.302 [SPEAKER_00]: And they saw that he really involves the opiate system in the brain. 17:36.683 --> 17:39.605 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like really like it really invokes there. 17:39.665 --> 17:44.030 [SPEAKER_00]: And some people have a more lower threshold for pain in others higher. 17:44.470 --> 17:47.473 [SPEAKER_00]: And they actually saw they could map it and see that people have higher. 17:47.493 --> 17:49.014 [SPEAKER_00]: Like actually suffer more. 17:49.575 --> 17:51.556 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's really very biological. 17:51.856 --> 17:53.417 [SPEAKER_00]: We always people blame themselves. 17:53.797 --> 17:56.938 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I shouldn't be the sensitive, but some of it is because of our biology. 17:57.438 --> 18:14.446 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a lesson here to build up your networks so that you don't place so much emphasis on what other people think of you when you're dating because like one of our listeners, she calls her friends the love army, which we loved. 18:14.626 --> 18:15.006 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, 18:15.506 --> 18:21.649 [SPEAKER_02]: She knows no matter what happens in dating, she can always fall back to her love army who are always there to support her. 18:21.929 --> 18:26.772 [SPEAKER_02]: So like I guess a lesson is in a very disconnected society we live in today. 18:27.092 --> 18:32.295 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a lesson to go out there and seek more connectedness, not in a romantic way. 18:32.743 --> 18:51.982 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, definitely the thing about the sub-able is also to look at your actual friendships and the people that we keep around us all the time and see if they meet this certain secure criteria that are came up with and secure, which is like I call it the five pillars of the secure life. 18:52.323 --> 18:53.864 [SPEAKER_00]: I distill it to five things. 18:53.964 --> 18:54.285 [SPEAKER_00]: So, 18:54.645 --> 19:03.430 [SPEAKER_00]: you have to learn and you want others to also be that way with you to be consistent, available, responsive, reliable and predictable. 19:03.570 --> 19:14.737 [SPEAKER_00]: I know it's a mouthful, it's carp, but once you get used to it, if you think about it, these are like people who are secure are consistently there in an available and responsive way. 19:15.057 --> 19:18.039 [SPEAKER_00]: So we text them, they often text us back, they're often timing, 19:24.543 --> 19:25.023 [SPEAKER_00]: I've had it. 19:25.163 --> 19:32.608 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm not there now because I'm like, I most of the time with my partner and our dog and like, I feel still dead. 19:32.968 --> 19:35.709

[SPEAKER_00]: But when I was single, it was hard like to see a friend. 19:35.870 --> 19:43.514 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you know, well, like when they were saying, yeah, let's hang out on like, let's hang out this weekend and then you're trying to make plans like you want to go out on Saturday night or Friday night. 19:43.774 --> 19:54.243 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, oh, I'm not sure they keep you hanging and then all the time you see that they went out and Friday night and you're not making plans because you want to meet with that and you want to get together with that and they're not there for you. 19:54.544 --> 19:55.945 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's not car. 19:56.105 --> 19:59.568 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not the system available, responsive, reliable and predictable. 19:59.748 --> 20:01.730 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the anti car basically. 20:01.810 --> 20:03.172 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's in this little thing. 20:03.292 --> 20:09.137 [SPEAKER_00]: So what I try to teach people is like, no, because we also have those friends that do show up for us. 20:09.377 --> 20:14.078 [SPEAKER_00]: that always like return our call, that include us, that we don't have these frictions with them. 20:14.278 --> 20:18.439 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes we don't really pay that much attention to them because there's no drama. 20:18.599 --> 20:21.140 [SPEAKER_00]: So our brain sees them as boring. 20:21.840 --> 20:26.901 [SPEAKER_00]: So both in the class and in the book, I try to teach people no, this is gold. 20:27.161 --> 20:33.422 [SPEAKER_00]: This is secure gold in front of you that you're missing out on these people in your life and give them more attention, 20:36.843 --> 20:40.404 [SPEAKER_00]: not this engaged but engaged less with those people who are not for. 20:40.764 --> 20:55.208 [SPEAKER_01]: I love this part of your book because I feel like it sounds so simple but we do overlook all these factors a lot and I know for me a huge turning point in my dating journey was prioritizing consistency so I guess the start of all carp. 20:55.608 --> 21:04.035 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the other ones follow in there, and I think that's something like if you would ask me 10 years ago, I would never have said that as a quality. 21:04.075 --> 21:14.843 [SPEAKER_01]: That would be like top of mind and that's like the people I was with were the opposite of consistent and I was chasing the like the excitement and the highs and lows and it really took to 21:15.483 --> 21:19.827 [SPEAKER_01]: Really changing what I was looking for to appreciate the people showing up. 21:19.907 --> 21:22.449 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think there is kind of two parts of this. 21:22.549 --> 21:23.730 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious to take on it. 21:23.810 --> 21:28.034 [SPEAKER_01]: And one side is like, how do you become attracted to these qualities? 21:28.594 --> 21:31.717 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the second side is how do you become this person yourself? 21:31.857 --> 21:34.660 [SPEAKER_01]: Because you might be like, I'm so consistent. 21:34.740 --> 21:38.463 [SPEAKER_01]: And then other people are like, no, this person always flakes on Friday night, right? 21:38.723 --> 21:42.384 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, right, so we'll start with the second part of the question. 21:42.764 --> 21:48.446 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why I built Carp is actually it's a two factor, sort of like authentication, kind of thing. 21:48.786 --> 21:54.167 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to make sure that you're consistent available on your sponsor, but it's not another thing. 21:54.347 --> 21:57.748 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so great, I'm consistent, available responsive, I'm Carp. 21:58.153 --> 22:04.556 [SPEAKER_00]: No, then you have to verify without a person that their experience to you is reliable and predictable. 22:05.036 --> 22:10.418 [SPEAKER_00]: And only then you know that your car, you need that verification because it's a diet, it's a relationship. 22:10.738 --> 22:12.599 [SPEAKER_00]: Not enough that you think that you're the greatest. 22:13.239 --> 22:14.300 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to verify. 22:14.320 --> 22:17.341 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like that's why I call it a two-factor authentication. 22:17.421 --> 22:36.972 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the first part and I think so for avoidance specifically it's really hard sometimes to live up to being car because it's all like no I want to do my own thing I don't want to be responsible for the well being of this other person that's not my job but then I think that's why I really go into it and great that's 22:37.272 --> 23:01.449 [SPEAKER_00]: about know you really have to understand the logic of attachment and it goes back to remember like when the mothers withdrew and then all of a sudden the child would reach out even more and that's what oftentimes happens to avoidance on the notes to them they disappear all of a sudden because no I don't feel like answering now and then what they do is they create this attachment backlash that the other person reaches out more and becomes more clingy 23:06.032 --> 23:07.334 [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't really take much. 23:07.734 --> 23:20.949 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like the small interventions that brings us to the second acronym in the book and in the class, which is called Simees, which is the seemingly insignificant minor interactions in our everyday life, Simees. 23:21.309 --> 23:23.612 [SPEAKER_00]: Because attachment is not about the big gestures. 23:23.992 --> 23:27.813 [SPEAKER_00]: It's about the tiny little micro things that we do in our day life. 23:27.873 --> 23:33.855 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a radar that is out there sensing those little things all the time. 23:34.215 --> 23:42.838 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when you teach a boydance that then they learn that it's actually a trick that works best for them more than anything else. 23:42.978 --> 23:45.899 [SPEAKER_00]: Because they actually freeze the time for them. 23:45.959 --> 23:48.019 [SPEAKER_00]: Like the person becomes less clingy. 23:48.319 --> 23:50.560 [SPEAKER_00]: So

that's how you convince a boydance to become more of a car. 23:50.740 --> 23:54.403 [SPEAKER_02]: Hmm, that's what we need on all of our dating profiles. 23:54.643 --> 23:56.424 [SPEAKER_02]: This, are you carp or not? 23:56.885 --> 23:57.365 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm carp. 23:57.545 --> 23:58.126 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm 80% carp. 23:58.146 --> 24:00.567 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you get a carp score. 24:00.587 --> 24:01.688 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you get a carp score. 24:01.988 --> 24:08.453 [SPEAKER_02]: What about the people who believe that they are always faced with disappointment? 24:08.974 --> 24:12.997 [SPEAKER_02]: We hear this from a lot of our listeners who are like, I want to be carp. 24:13.537 --> 24:14.778 [SPEAKER_02]: I show up. 24:15.058 --> 24:18.621 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm consistent and people consistently fail me. 24:19.361 --> 24:21.342 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm always disappointed. 24:21.703 --> 24:25.585 [SPEAKER_02]: So it makes me want to become less card as a result. 24:25.825 --> 24:30.928 [SPEAKER_00]: And so much of the dating advice actually says, no, like don't really text them until the next year. 24:30.948 --> 24:34.429 [SPEAKER_00]: Or like even worse, like don't rock the boat, let them make the move. 24:34.790 --> 24:40.193 [SPEAKER_00]: All those things really come in the way of like a secure way of dating. 24:40.453 --> 24:44.155 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think so I'll just have to say straight out, dating is hard. 24:44.415 --> 24:45.675 [SPEAKER_00]: And you will get disappointed. 24:45.876 --> 24:48.077 [SPEAKER_00]: Just think about what it takes you have to go out there. 24:48.497 --> 25:11.389 [SPEAKER_00]: And meet like a complete stranger and make them your own that's a you that's like that's a huge undertaking the fact that it happens It's just like at all it happens more often than not it's just to me mind boggling but the process is not easy because you have to kiss a lot of like frogs before you find your friends and it just part of the process 25:11.849 --> 25:13.571 [SPEAKER_00]: So yes, you will get disappointed. 25:13.931 --> 25:28.324 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a numbers game, but the idea, I think the trick is to shorten the disappointments to really make it more efficient, time efficient and energy efficient and psychologically efficient, emotionally efficient. 25:28.564 --> 25:37.810 [SPEAKER_00]: declaring that carp thing from the very good right out the door people don't want to do that because they think oh no I shouldn't really show my cards. 25:37.930 --> 25:49.198 [SPEAKER_00]: I should sort of like no I should sort of play it cool or whatever people think that actually goes against them And I think that I would have it on my I would and I would just say the people like you know 25:49.398 --> 25:57.967 [SPEAKER_00]: For me, it's very important that the people in my life, not just the people who I'm dating, the people in general in my life are consistent, available in responsive. 25:58.007 --> 25:59.529 [SPEAKER_00]: It's important to my brain. 25:59.569 --> 26:01.431 [SPEAKER_00]: You can tell them about this, I have a lot of thank you. 26:01.551 --> 26:02.652 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm educated. 26:03.493 --> 26:04.234 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, why not? 26:04.474 --> 26:06.315 [SPEAKER_00]: because then it becomes more about the brain. 26:06.435 --> 26:09.156 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not about such a vulnerable little thing. 26:09.376 --> 26:10.917 [SPEAKER_00]: That we're all vulnerable to that. 26:11.077 --> 26:17.500 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I really, I really value consistency I value when the people come through, that they're available, that they're responsive. 26:17.740 --> 26:19.381 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I try to have in my life. 26:19.581 --> 26:21.202 [SPEAKER_00]: I call it the Carpentrevention. 26:22.062 --> 26:28.746 [SPEAKER_00]: And the sooner you do it, the better they can have it on your dating profile, you can say, hey, it's important to me that people do that. 26:29.066 --> 26:30.687 [SPEAKER_00]: And then it becomes less personal. 26:31.147 --> 26:33.488 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like you're setting your manifesting it. 26:33.689 --> 26:36.630 [SPEAKER_00]: You're kind of like drawing, you're like, you can think about it. 26:36.690 --> 26:42.313 [SPEAKER_00]: These are the boundaries that you're setting for your dating life, being it right out loud early on. 26:42.633 --> 26:44.474 [SPEAKER_00]: Once you've set it, you can unsay it. 26:44.675 --> 26:46.616 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you see what people do with that. 26:47.016 --> 26:48.237 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's very informative. 26:50.958 --> 26:53.840 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's hold that thought because we have a quick message from our sponsors. 26:54.220 --> 26:57.863 [SPEAKER_01]: Some curious, you mentioned earlier the two-factor authorization. 26:57.923 --> 26:59.404 [SPEAKER_01]: Two people need to opt in. 26:59.724 --> 27:07.569 [SPEAKER_01]: Is there ever a time where your definition of consistency is something that the other person can just never be advice for a set? 27:07.609 --> 27:15.494 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it doesn't mean you're not a consistent person, but like, their definition just is not aligned with you and like, what do you do at that situation? 27:15.714 --> 27:16.435 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 27:16.455 --> 27:18.836 [SPEAKER_00]: So, so all of that is very important to work out 27:20.057 --> 27:39.075 [SPEAKER_00]: the earlier the better and that's why I think so here's the thing I think that people who are secure are a bit much more flexible and especially if you put it out thinking way that doesn't make them feel bad about like about themselves so they're very flexible they can actually okay so what do you need how do you need it how do you do it 27:39.415 --> 27:41.295 [SPEAKER_00]: And then they find a way to make it work. 27:41.435 --> 27:46.316 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes even if they have the secure kernel, it's almost you're reaching out to see if you can pull it out of them. 27:46.556 -->

27:47.797 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you an example. 27:47.817 --> 27:52.457 [SPEAKER_00]: I have a patient who uh, she hooked up with this guy on Tinder. 27:52.477 --> 27:55.058 [SPEAKER_00]: And he was just in hookup and then he'd spend the night together. 27:55.078 --> 27:55.878 [SPEAKER_00]: He was great then. 27:55.938 --> 27:56.678 [SPEAKER_00]: Amazing fun. 27:56.818 --> 27:57.838 [SPEAKER_00]: Thought that there was a connection. 27:57.858 --> 28:01.319 [SPEAKER_00]: And then they, the fall the week after they kept texting each other. 28:01.379 --> 28:02.779 [SPEAKER_00]: But he wasn't very responsive. 28:02.979 --> 28:06.560 [SPEAKER_00]: Then the fall and weekend, they hooked up again and again, spend the night together. 28:07.480 --> 28:14.783 [SPEAKER_00]: As he was leaving, she told him, listen, I can feel that there's something going and something here, and I like you, and I can tell that you like me too. 28:15.123 --> 28:21.085 [SPEAKER_00]: But I have to tell you, this whole taxi me back, we're taking a few days to taxi back, that doesn't really work for me. 28:21.145 --> 28:23.306 [SPEAKER_00]: I know myself, and I know what's going to happen. 28:23.346 --> 28:26.147 [SPEAKER_00]: If I don't hear from you, it's going to make me hit up your phone. 28:26.187 --> 28:31.568 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm probably going to call you 10 times, and I'll text you, and I don't like to feel that way. 28:31.588 --> 28:32.949 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like to be that way. 28:33.249 --> 28:36.210 [SPEAKER_00]: So for me, it's very important that people are responsive. 28:36.450 --> 28:38.932 [SPEAKER_00]: So, and if you can do that, I know that things will work out. 28:38.992 --> 28:42.515 [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, you know, I'm notoriously non-responsive. 28:42.575 --> 28:48.140 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, all of my friends, they always complain that, like, like, like, weeks go by before I ignore their text. 28:48.160 --> 28:49.061 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't pay attention. 28:49.281 --> 28:50.923 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm gonna try. 28:51.023 --> 28:51.863 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna try this. 28:52.644 --> 28:53.605 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm willing to give it a try. 28:54.005 --> 28:59.767 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I think maybe 14 years later, and I think two kids, and he really did give it a try. 28:59.787 --> 29:10.010 [SPEAKER_00]: And then when he doesn't call, he doesn't take back, and he instigates that what we call in attachment, and we go with activator attachment system, so she engages in approaches. 29:10.190 --> 29:11.991 [SPEAKER_00]: She calls, she will call 10 times. 29:12.531 --> 29:23.156 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you'll just answer, hey, babe, sorry, I couldn't answer, and like he wouldn't get upset with her like because it's just like okay and when you talk to him, he will say, you know when she put it that way. 29:23.176 --> 29:29.098 [SPEAKER_00]: It just realized he wasn't such a big ask and they knew that he wasn't like he like he didn't make me feel bad. 29:29.158 --> 29:30.939 [SPEAKER_00]: It felt like yeah, I can I can do that. 29:31.239 --> 29:35.280 [SPEAKER_01]: So this sounds like a lot of conversations I actually had if my husband earlier on. 29:35.360 --> 29:48.964 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't a Tinder hookup, but a lot of the stuff you were just saying of like, I will call Ted Times if I don't hear how do you start to like want those qualities to begin with and know how to ask for them because I think like, oh yeah. 29:49.084 --> 29:52.365 [SPEAKER_01]: I honestly can't even fully tell you how I got there was like 29:52.785 --> 30:02.395 [SPEAKER_01]: 10 years of doing this podcast and like clearly have you a lot of these conversations, but like do you have like steps or like something that can get people into this head space. 30:02.635 --> 30:14.167 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that you're asking that because that's like a major part of what I do like in teacher primary therapy and in the and especially in my in my in the treatment when I see patients. 30:14.847 --> 30:18.608 [SPEAKER_00]: is trying to sell the secures of this world. 30:19.128 --> 30:27.011 [SPEAKER_00]: And you know that when you have all these conversations and when you close to the material, that's what happened to me telling love of the secures of this world. 30:27.051 --> 30:31.592 [SPEAKER_00]: So I said in the beginning, whether we ignore them, then we don't pay attention to them because there's no drama. 30:31.972 --> 30:36.715 [SPEAKER_00]: I've learned to value it as an exceptional talent. 30:36.975 --> 30:55.787 [SPEAKER_00]: And you see it across the animal kingdom, like there are people who are like, even they saw among the chimpanzees, they're better mothers, they're better spouses, even among monogamous species, some individuals within the species are better in taking care of their spouse. 30:56.848 --> 30:57.508 [SPEAKER_00]: It's amazing. 30:57.689 --> 31:15.136 [SPEAKER_00]: So to really sell people like no, no, this is the fact that they're always answering the fact that there was there the fact that you can tell them like you said like you had this conversation and it sounds like he was actually met with understanding Which is kind of like amazing when like it's so it's like it's an incredible thing. 31:15.277 --> 31:16.257 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a talent. 31:16.457 --> 31:17.938 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not a given so 31:18.518 --> 31:25.600 [SPEAKER_00]: Like when patients come and to me and like they're dating someone and said, Oh, we went out and then he like he or she, they do. 31:25.680 --> 31:27.341 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's get together like to make plan. 31:27.421 --> 31:28.481 [SPEAKER_00]: Are you free and sadder tonight? 31:28.601 --> 31:31.682 [SPEAKER_00]: And I go and I swoop right in like, Oh, my God. 31:32.023 --> 31:33.923 [SPEAKER_00]: They told you that that's amazing. 31:34.223 --> 31:34.683 [SPEAKER_00]: That's this. 31:34.723 --> 31:35.164 [SPEAKER_00]: That's that. 31:35.224 --> 31:38.505 [SPEAKER_00]: And then

it's saying yeah, but I don't know if I'm really attracted to them. 31:38.525 --> 31:41.506 [SPEAKER_00]: And I said, well, won't can you do like you know to attract it? 31:41.526 --> 31:42.486 [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, there's like 31:42.706 --> 32:08.881 [SPEAKER_00]: like attraction is not something that I can like turn on or off but so like then we'll have to find someone else but they're gonna be like this amazing partner to someone else because look at their talent look at how they can show up to relationship look at how the response of their I really build them up that's a form of secure priming and then oftentimes the the patient will say oh you know what maybe I'll try again I'll go out with them again and I'll see and then 32:09.437 --> 32:17.764 [SPEAKER_00]: You teach them to feel a little bit more comfortable in this like new environment that is like really relaxed and there's no ups and downs. 32:17.984 --> 32:22.767 [SPEAKER_00]: And then if they're in there long enough, it grows on them and then they're hooked. 32:22.847 --> 32:24.929 [SPEAKER_00]: And once they're hooked, then that's it. 32:25.389 --> 32:26.170 [SPEAKER_00]: They leave therapy. 32:26.190 --> 32:27.651 [SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing for me to do with them. 32:27.711 --> 32:27.971 [SPEAKER_00]: No. 32:28.212 --> 32:34.857 [SPEAKER_00]: They're like because they have this secure partner who's there to help them with their feelings and other doing it's amazing to have a secure partner. 32:35.157 --> 32:42.181 [SPEAKER_02]: I love that you're adding on this layer of chemistry and attraction because I think chemistry comes from two different areas. 32:42.741 --> 32:46.663 [SPEAKER_02]: One is that instant chemistry from the unknown. 32:47.143 --> 32:54.607 [SPEAKER_02]: When someone is inconsistent or a little bit unpredictable, that builds chemistry because it makes you fill in the 32:58.329 --> 33:01.532 [SPEAKER_02]: but then there's this chemistry built from consistency. 33:01.932 --> 33:07.616 [SPEAKER_02]: And that chemistry takes a little bit of time to build, but once you said once it's there, it's there. 33:07.877 --> 33:12.240 [SPEAKER_02]: You're securely attached because you feel safe in that relationship. 33:12.520 --> 33:24.730 [SPEAKER_02]: But there's just like this weird middle ground, which I still think it's like one of the oddest things about dating, is that someone would be like, I'm willing to show you my vagina before I'm willing to tell you if I want to text back or not. 33:25.010 --> 33:27.931 [SPEAKER_02]: So how do we move up that timeline? 33:28.011 --> 33:35.613 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I do think when with dating, people don't want to get into that conversation right away, it's not sexy, it's not flirty. 33:36.154 --> 33:41.255 [SPEAKER_02]: But like you said, it does build a more of a long term sustainability. 33:41.535 --> 33:46.557 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you were to rehearse this conversation with a client, what would you tell them to say? 33:47.107 --> 33:47.467 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no. 33:47.527 --> 33:48.687 [SPEAKER_00]: So I always tell them. 33:48.907 --> 33:57.689 [SPEAKER_00]: And I guess it's like the way Julie said that's the part of the more like an anxious script that you have in your mind where he's like, oh, I should be really careful and what I say. 33:57.789 --> 33:59.450 [SPEAKER_00]: I want the other person to really like me. 33:59.890 --> 34:01.570 [SPEAKER_00]: So I shouldn't rock the boat. 34:01.730 --> 34:04.211 [SPEAKER_00]: I shouldn't really say anything that's going to turn them off. 34:04.291 --> 34:09.752 [SPEAKER_00]: That's an anxious script and the idea that like every little thing you say can ruin everything. 34:11.233 --> 34:29.469 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's true, but oftentimes more so with a boy than, and I remember when I was younger and a friend of mine, she was dating someone on board and and he turned out also that I think that he was also like really depressed, but he was also a boy than like he wanted to spend a weekend with her and he was like this is New York, he was like this beautiful 34:30.090 --> 34:35.593 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's September, like there's amazing days where it's so sunny, like this scars are clear. 34:36.033 --> 34:37.294 [SPEAKER_00]: And like she wanted to go. 34:37.334 --> 34:38.555 [SPEAKER_00]: She wanted to, she had this plan. 34:38.575 --> 34:41.677 [SPEAKER_00]: They were gonna go, walk over to Brooklyn Bridge together. 34:41.997 --> 34:44.278 [SPEAKER_00]: And then she's waiting, she's not hearing back from me. 34:44.338 --> 34:49.801 [SPEAKER_00]: And then then I'm telling her, what's just like just text him and find out, I think maybe it's so long ago. 34:49.821 --> 34:53.103 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna be like, call him and find out what's going on or text him and find out what's going on. 34:53.363 --> 34:54.683 [SPEAKER_00]: And like, no, I don't want to do it. 34:54.703 --> 34:55.283 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't do it. 34:55.363 --> 34:59.464 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I was like, no, because I wanted like, if you're not going to hang out with him, let's hang out together. 34:59.484 --> 35:00.465 [SPEAKER_00]: It's such an amazing day. 35:00.645 --> 35:06.386 [SPEAKER_00]: Finally, she texted him and then he's like, no, I'm busy doing the laundry. 35:06.486 --> 35:08.987 [SPEAKER_00]: And now, because you call me, like, I got distracted. 35:09.167 --> 35:11.107 [SPEAKER_00]: So I came to out at all or something like that. 35:11.447 --> 35:14.268 [SPEAKER_00]: And she was like, devastated and empty. 35:14.768 --> 35:17.989 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, because I intervened, like, she blamed me and I felt so bad. 35:19.229 --> 35:20.729 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's get the answers. 35:20.749 --> 35:21.349 [SPEAKER_00]: Come through. 35:21.749 --> 35:22.489 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly. 35:22.549 --> 35:31.731 [SPEAKER_00]: So you want to, I actually think that coming from a secure place and saying, this is what I want from people in my life.

35:32.211 --> 35:36.212 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the sexiest thing you can do for yourself and for others too. 35:36.552 --> 35:39.853 [SPEAKER_00]: When you don't do that, and when you think no, I should be more demure. 35:39.873 --> 35:40.513 [SPEAKER_00]: I should do this. 35:40.553 --> 35:41.893 [SPEAKER_00]: I should actually keep the cards close. 35:42.613 --> 35:51.396 [SPEAKER_00]: Both men and women, you know how many men like they go on this on YouTube and they teach them don't text her Let her feel so she'll feel that you want to you. 35:51.416 --> 36:01.460 [SPEAKER_00]: I have to say it does work because it activate your attachment system And he makes you feel like oh my god, like I like these anxiety, so it's not that he doesn't work, but you're 36:02.240 --> 36:14.654 [SPEAKER_00]: really perpetuating insecure, you're instilling insecure elements in the relationship from day one and you want to test from day one if this relationship can be secure. 36:15.174 --> 36:16.296 [SPEAKER_02]: It's very short-sighted. 36:16.997 --> 36:38.176 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and he doesn't really, so it's imagine if you are interviewing someone for a position, which is you are in a way interviewing someone for the probably the most important position of your life, and you want to find if they have the qualifications, but they come to the job interview, and you said, no, I'm not going to ask them about if they can do this, this or that, because I'm afraid they're going to run away. 36:38.336 --> 36:42.580 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just not going to ask them anything, I'm just going to take them and like fill the position. 36:42.960 --> 36:46.822 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is not a position you can fire someone very easily from, right? 36:47.102 --> 36:49.423 [SPEAKER_00]: And then they go on the job and they turn up. 36:49.703 --> 36:54.606 [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't even know the job description and they can't do the job that you were hoping that they were able to do. 36:54.986 --> 36:57.327 [SPEAKER_00]: So why would you want to do that to yourself? 36:57.767 --> 37:01.049 [SPEAKER_01]: So I can hear listeners asking this because we've got it this before. 37:01.069 --> 37:03.270 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I do all this work on myself. 37:03.590 --> 37:04.731 [SPEAKER_01]: I become secure. 37:04.951 --> 37:07.152 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think you actually set this at your book 37:10.894 --> 37:11.955 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what do you do? 37:12.055 --> 37:19.559 [SPEAKER_01]: What everyone else is not willing to become carp in, you know, do those little actions that meet you and all the stuff. 37:19.599 --> 37:21.119 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how do you handle that? 37:21.420 --> 37:22.020 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 37:22.040 --> 37:25.602 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's remember that we only need one person. 37:25.622 --> 37:27.002 [SPEAKER_00]: It's only one person. 37:27.803 --> 37:31.565 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, like in the Bible, there's like the thing that he says, like in the blink of an eye. 37:31.972 --> 37:37.657 [SPEAKER_00]: But I always think about dating in that way when it happens, it happens in the blink of an eye really often time. 37:38.097 --> 37:44.863 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like, all of a sudden you find yourself like, it's like, things are moving along and you both like each other and you feel like a miracle. 37:45.243 --> 37:46.965 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, not always sometimes it's strong. 37:46.985 --> 37:50.468 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's like, there's a little bit of push and pull, but often time it does work that way. 37:50.828 --> 37:52.990 [SPEAKER_00]: and so you need only one person. 37:53.371 --> 38:04.702 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the problem is more when you are doing all those insecure maneuvers and you let things linger like insecure people linger for longer. 38:04.862 --> 38:09.587 [SPEAKER_00]: That's actually just so it takes up so much of your time instead of like really saying, well, 38:10.127 --> 38:10.927 [SPEAKER_00]: This is what I need. 38:11.067 --> 38:13.188 [SPEAKER_00]: The other person's like, oh my god, that scares me. 38:13.208 --> 38:14.929 [SPEAKER_00]: You need too much too much closeness. 38:14.989 --> 38:15.309 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 38:15.389 --> 38:17.710 [SPEAKER_00]: What you're asking for too much here. 38:17.750 --> 38:24.313 [SPEAKER_00]: I give you an example of another person that just recently I have this conversation is a person who's gay. 38:24.713 --> 38:29.355 [SPEAKER_00]: And he like started seeing someone and they were like, I don't know, like a month together or something like that. 38:29.415 --> 38:30.296 [SPEAKER_00]: And you really liked him. 38:30.596 --> 38:32.637 [SPEAKER_00]: But then he saw that he was on Grindr all the time. 38:33.017 --> 38:35.698 [SPEAKER_00]: And he was like, why you own Grindr all the time. 38:36.378 --> 38:42.861 [SPEAKER_00]: And like I thought we were like kind of like moving along and so like what's happening there doesn't make me feel good. 38:43.421 --> 38:45.462 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, this is too early. 38:45.482 --> 38:46.823 [SPEAKER_00]: Why are you saying that? 38:46.943 --> 38:51.685 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, I think it's too much and he felt very anxious about it too much and he called it off. 38:52.585 --> 38:57.447 [SPEAKER_00]: And the guy felt really bad about it because he felt, oh, I reacted too much to it. 38:57.467 --> 38:59.949 [SPEAKER_00]: That should learn to really control my feelings. 39:00.509 --> 39:00.649 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh. 39:01.189 --> 39:12.661 [SPEAKER_00]: and then just basically really blamed itself, which is another classic anxious working model thing that we tend to blame ourselves more people where I mentioned Ben's like, no it's my fault I shouldn't have done that. 39:12.921 --> 39:13.662 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what happened. 39:14.623 --> 39:19.708 [SPEAKER_00]: When she called like, why did I ask him about if we're going to go to the Brooklyn Bridge or not? 39:19.768 --> 39:20.809

[SPEAKER_00]: I ruined everything. 39:20.869 --> 39:22.210 [SPEAKER_00]: I should have really kept quiet. 39:22.290 --> 39:22.651 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 39:22.971 --> 39:23.732 [SPEAKER_00]: But here's the thing. 39:24.052 --> 39:43.163 [SPEAKER_00]: Like again, remember we go back to this idea of like interviewing for an important position right one of the most important things in relationships is that when you ask someone for something see they will do it for your oftentimes people say no I don't want to ask and one that I want to come from them I want them to do it. 39:43.476 --> 39:55.146 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to see if they want to do it, but really in your relationship, how many times that it happened where you ask the other person to do something they don't want to do it, but they do it because it's you and it's important and you're important to them. 39:55.606 --> 39:58.969 [SPEAKER_00]: So, isn't that to me, that's the epitome of a relationship? 39:59.489 --> 40:12.561 [SPEAKER_00]: Is the ability to come in and say, yeah, I don't want to wake up like at this time and do this for this other person, but I will, how many times every day I do that so many times or it's a that relationship. 40:12.621 --> 40:18.547 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's the homework and when you want to test that from the very beginning if this other person has that ability right. 40:18.927 --> 40:23.669 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, back to that example, because my friend went through a similar experience. 40:24.129 --> 40:26.791 [SPEAKER_02]: She went on a few dates with the guy she met from a dating app. 40:26.911 --> 40:33.454 [SPEAKER_02]: He was very carp, very consistent, asked her out with responding to text, made her feel really good. 40:33.754 --> 40:42.458 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think dating apps at this layer of anxiety, that's unnecessary, because she can go back to his profile, she could see 40:43.298 --> 40:47.999 [SPEAKER_02]: where his location is, and then she could see that he updated his photos recently. 40:48.019 --> 40:51.600 [SPEAKER_02]: And she's like, wait, I thought we were like pretty good. 40:51.620 --> 40:56.601 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we're seeing each other consistently, yet he's still updating his profile. 40:57.381 --> 41:05.123 [SPEAKER_02]: So she couldn't reconcile the two like he's carp, but on online dating, it's adding this anxiety and security for her. 41:05.373 --> 41:06.594 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, I love that. 41:06.894 --> 41:07.475 [SPEAKER_00]: What do you do? 41:08.315 --> 41:14.541 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, it depends, but I mean, ideally, I think you would find a way to communicate it. 41:14.861 --> 41:19.465 [SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't have to be like, like, really, like, oh my god, I saw you doing that. 41:19.605 --> 41:20.325 [SPEAKER_00]: That's terrible. 41:20.446 --> 41:31.555 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's more like, hey, I saw that you updated your photo and it's like, I think the older one was nicer, maybe you want to be like, so you can use humor and you can make a joke out. 41:33.196 --> 41:34.478 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you can sort of go about it. 41:34.498 --> 41:36.641 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't have to be like, oh my god, how could you have done that? 41:37.001 --> 41:39.945 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so hurt, but it can be more like, what's up with that? 41:40.265 --> 41:41.467 [SPEAKER_00]: Where do we stand? 41:41.547 --> 41:49.257 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what do you like, so if he's carp and he's secure, you'll be surprised how much they'll be willing to actually meet you where you are. 41:49.997 --> 41:52.439 [SPEAKER_01]: So this might be something that you've heard too. 41:52.519 --> 41:56.602 [SPEAKER_01]: I think like we hear a lot like people just going to avoid it as like the reason. 41:56.622 --> 42:01.846 [SPEAKER_01]: So I can hear someone saying like, oh, it was all going well, but they must be avoidant because they're still on the data gaps. 42:01.926 --> 42:08.491 [SPEAKER_01]: When the reality might be that they're just trying to like get a feel of like if this is right for them, it doesn't necessarily mean they're avoidant. 42:08.671 --> 42:12.213 [SPEAKER_01]: How do you like use all of this for your power, right? 42:12.273 --> 42:18.498 [SPEAKER_01]: Like to understand your attached with style but not necessarily used as like the blanket thing of like why someone is or isn't. 42:18.838 --> 42:19.618 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, definitely. 42:19.698 --> 42:23.059 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's where this whole carp intervention comes into play. 42:23.379 --> 42:37.823 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't just judge by some behavior what's going on and also you haven't given a chance to the person right you sort of meet you where you are you need to give people a chance and that takes a lot of courage for people who are anxious because like, oh my god, how can I say that? 42:38.243 --> 43:00.343 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure especially like I'm a woman that shouldn't really like rock the boat, but oftentimes for anyone you want to see early on how the other person responding to something that affects you because remember we went we'd go back to the beginning of our conversation that relationships are all about sort of like taking care of each other emotionally and regulating each other's affect. 43:00.903 --> 43:13.025 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the basically the gist of it, the logic that cuts through, whether it's mother child, whether it's to friends or you and a like a significant other, you want to be able to test that. 43:13.245 --> 43:17.086 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know it's hard for people, but it's a skill that you can really learn. 43:17.226 --> 43:21.567 [SPEAKER_00]: And once you learn to do that, it's actually dating with purpose and power. 43:21.727 --> 43:23.668 [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, you think it's taking the power from you. 43:23.688 --> 43:23.948 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 43:24.208 --> 43:25.708 [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually giving you power. 43:25.928 --> 43:41.593 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually, for me,

that was the most liberating part of dating, the last time I was dating before I met my husband, and I had a similar situation where the person just was not able to prioritize, like, meeting up for a drink for an hour. 43:41.773 --> 43:48.855 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, do I really want a relationship where I can't, like, someone doesn't want to see me, and it's like a pull every time. 43:49.115 --> 43:51.636 [SPEAKER_01]: And I actually got to a point that I was able to just be like, 43:52.036 --> 43:59.964 [SPEAKER_01]: They give them kind of an opportunity to explain themselves, but then actually get to the point when that explanation wasn't sufficient. 44:00.005 --> 44:01.826 [SPEAKER_01]: That's like, this is it what I want. 44:02.007 --> 44:05.090 [SPEAKER_01]: I want someone that wants a partnership and let them go. 44:05.250 --> 44:08.613 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think for me, like, that was something I could never have done years ago. 44:09.174 --> 44:14.660 [SPEAKER_01]: And by letting them go, it allowed me to actually meet someone that I never had to have those conversations with. 44:15.000 --> 44:17.381 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, that's exactly my point. 44:17.441 --> 44:23.882 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like you cycles through those more quickly Yeah, there's just like an incompatibility and that's okay Right because right now. 44:23.902 --> 44:25.522 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna be compatible with everyone. 44:25.762 --> 44:37.665 [SPEAKER_00]: It's about something that happens between two people It's like this magic that happens it like you can accelerate the magic instead of like I could totally You have to get through several frogs before you get to your friends or princess 44:38.025 --> 44:49.155 [SPEAKER_00]: So like what people do is like oh I'm going to keep this frog and I'm going to really see what's going to happen what's going to happen but you try a few times and then maybe it's better to move on. 44:49.435 --> 45:02.927 [SPEAKER_01]: Right or like you spend all this time analyzing them and say how their childhood must have made them avoid into all this stuff and it's like at the end of the day it doesn't matter if they're not showing up the way that you need them to. 45:03.347 --> 45:04.668 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, exactly. 45:05.048 --> 45:14.375 [SPEAKER_00]: And the most research finding in attachment actually shows that childhood actually plays less of a role in our attachment style. 45:14.735 --> 45:15.076 [SPEAKER_01]: What? 45:15.116 --> 45:16.376 [SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting. 45:16.416 --> 45:17.437 [SPEAKER_01]: That's so cool. 45:17.677 --> 45:22.581 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm so glad we got to that because that is definitely what no one would think. 45:22.601 --> 45:29.046 [SPEAKER_01]: So we hear so many people trying to like justify staying in bad relationships because it's their childhood. 45:29.086 --> 45:30.206 [SPEAKER_01]: We've been blaming our parents 45:31.187 --> 45:36.971 [SPEAKER_01]: So okay, wait, so where does it stem from then is it like the experiences in life after childhood? 45:37.311 --> 45:40.813 [SPEAKER_00]: So kind of like a convergence on multiple factors. 45:40.913 --> 45:42.434 [SPEAKER_00]: There's definitely genetic component. 45:42.675 --> 45:50.720 [SPEAKER_00]: There's definitely, but when they did a research, a most recent study, just that came out in 2006 that actually followed people for 30 years. 45:51.140 --> 45:53.542 [SPEAKER_00]: These studies are very hard to do, but there's some 45:53.962 --> 46:07.074 [SPEAKER_00]: that there's like these data sets where they follow people for 30 years, they saw actually that like for about an avoidance, the effect of the maternal effect on later adult attachment style was 3%. 46:07.154 --> 46:07.655 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. 46:08.716 --> 46:15.602 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the fact that it's enduring over 30 years, by 3% it's more like an echo from the past. 46:15.702 --> 46:16.503 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not like because 46:16.983 --> 46:18.824 [SPEAKER_00]: There are this, now you are this way. 46:19.104 --> 46:19.824 [SPEAKER_00]: No, not at all. 46:19.884 --> 46:23.566 [SPEAKER_00]: And actually, childhood friendships like had more than a fan. 46:23.586 --> 46:24.086 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, interest. 46:24.467 --> 46:25.047 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not a percent. 46:25.387 --> 46:25.687 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 46:25.927 --> 46:29.669 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's really a combat, but still 90% is other things. 46:30.049 --> 46:37.653 [SPEAKER_00]: So we think more about attachment style as like a lot of information that there goes in and we can modify. 46:37.673 --> 46:42.215 [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like a world belief and the set of expectations that we have from above the world. 46:42.475 --> 46:49.080 [SPEAKER_00]: that can be modified depending on which relationships we have, and how people show up for us, and how we shop for other people. 46:49.260 --> 46:54.725 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to dive into this even more, but before we do, let's take a quick break to hear from our partners. 46:55.285 --> 46:57.327 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is the part that's hard, though, because like, 46:57.807 --> 47:04.636 [SPEAKER_01]: I agree fully with everything you said about like, you know, you don't want to waste your tie with the wrong people like you and I will say like, scare them away. 47:04.856 --> 47:08.861 [SPEAKER_01]: Say your needs if the wrong people like aren't like they're not going to stick around that's okay. 47:09.001 --> 47:12.085 [SPEAKER_01]: And our like whole book how to be dateable is built up this premise too. 47:12.505 --> 47:15.429 [SPEAKER_01]: But the problem is that's not the norm and dating. 47:15.729 --> 47:30.336 [SPEAKER_01]: The normandating is either a very anxious attitude that's fueled by TikTok culture and social media, like all the stuff that's going wrong about dating or an avoiding culture of like, you know, I need to protect my piece, I need to do what's good for me. 47:30.756 --> 47:35.458 [SPEAKER_01]: So

like, do you think the dating culture influences people's attachment? 47:35.698 --> 47:38.860 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what we hear a lot because these are the people. 47:38.960 --> 47:40.081 [SPEAKER_00]: So here's what I think happens. 47:40.121 --> 47:46.204 [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a big chunk of the population that know how to date securely and they date securely, but then guess what happened. 47:46.264 --> 47:51.767 [SPEAKER_00]: They get together with someone, they meet them, and they're circle out of the date pool right quickly. 47:52.067 --> 47:57.490 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the ones that stay on and stay on and stay on are the ones that have a harder time with it. 47:58.891 --> 48:07.596 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think many people date very sick and you can actually see, you know, like all those thick cocks where the meat cubes, um, and then like, how do you guys meet the goal? 48:07.616 --> 48:09.397 [SPEAKER_00]: These like the people together for 45 years. 48:09.737 --> 48:15.320 [SPEAKER_00]: I said, I love looking at them because it's like secure private and then I saw one the other day, it's like, oh, I met him. 48:15.660 --> 48:19.382 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I told her from the first time that we're going to have that we met that she's going to be my wife. 48:19.642 --> 48:22.064 [SPEAKER_00]: And they're willing to say, like, that freaked me out a little bit. 48:22.084 --> 48:24.965 [SPEAKER_00]: But then I saw, well, well, I liked it, but you have all these stories. 48:24.985 --> 48:27.567 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I knew from the moment that I met him that this is it. 48:27.907 --> 48:32.392 [SPEAKER_00]: like we got together and we talked for four hours and then I moved it in two weeks. 48:32.693 --> 48:45.348 [SPEAKER_00]: You have so many of these stories but you don't hear them that much but a lot of what you hear it tends to be the drama because again the secures are just busy having their secure lives and they don't even need to tell the story. 48:45.968 --> 48:47.289 [SPEAKER_02]: secure people find each other. 48:47.729 --> 48:54.571 [SPEAKER_01]: But I want people to take away though that there's no one secure in the pool because I mean, I feel like I'm proof of that. 48:54.591 --> 48:54.691 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 48:54.751 --> 49:00.433 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like, you know, I feel like there's ways that I think everyone listening in your your whole book is about this. 49:00.573 --> 49:03.434 [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone listening can become secure like that. 49:03.514 --> 49:04.114 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. 49:04.394 --> 49:10.236 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's why you want to do these investigations because maybe there's like the example that I gave you, the guy who never really 49:12.457 --> 49:13.978 [SPEAKER_00]: But there was a secure kernel there. 49:14.359 --> 49:17.021 [SPEAKER_00]: And when she was like, OK, this is what I need from you. 49:17.041 --> 49:18.982 [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, oh, I can do that. 49:19.783 --> 49:20.924 [SPEAKER_00]:

Yeah. 49:21.204 --> 49:23.666 [SPEAKER_00]: And then if she's not, then she calls them and just like, hey, sorry. 49:23.706 --> 49:24.207 [SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't. 49:24.247 --> 49:26.629 [SPEAKER_00]: So people see that as a weakness. 49:26.969 --> 49:33.734 [SPEAKER_00]: But by actually sort of showing up in a secure way and doing that carpentrovention, you're actually giving the other person a chance. 49:34.155 --> 49:36.897 [SPEAKER_00]: You're like summoning out their secure potential. 49:37.057 --> 49:38.098 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right. 49:38.178 --> 49:39.219 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's what we always say. 49:39.239 --> 49:44.603 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, get the data, like you have to ask the questions to understand what you're working with. 49:45.123 --> 49:57.953 [SPEAKER_01]: So do you think, I know secure has always been kind of like the middle, like anxious people can be with secure people, avoidant people, can be with secure people, and then in turn, they become more secure, hopefully, with influence. 49:57.993 --> 50:01.875 [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully, can anxious and avoidant every day successfully? 50:01.996 --> 50:05.078 [SPEAKER_01]: Or is it always just like, no, I think so. 50:06.899 --> 50:11.084 [SPEAKER_00]: can learn and that's what I really go in there and like in secure and in the class. 50:11.184 --> 50:24.197 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, there are all these different pitfalls, you know, like in the class, we give this example of this couple that they're actually very secure and then they, uh, it's kind of like the last case study in the in the class where they, uh, 50:24.597 --> 50:29.200 [SPEAKER_00]: Like they're married, they have to kids and their woman goes to the playground. 50:29.260 --> 50:43.090 [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the mothers there, she said, oh, we always like go away, just me and my husband and we leave the kids with their grandparents because we need to spice things up because otherwise things are like the relationship is going to go sour and she comes home. 50:43.110 --> 50:47.993 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh my God, I heard that he's like, we don't do this, that relationship is going to go sour. 50:48.394 --> 50:50.595 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you can find out what happens to them. 50:53.597 --> 50:56.039 [SPEAKER_00]: If you listen to their class, you'll find out what happens to them. 50:57.339 --> 51:10.407 [SPEAKER_00]: And you find out some of the most basic myth that people we can get these insecure influences from the outside, like, all these, like, they tell men, like, how do they, like, oh, this is the way to attract women. 51:10.647 --> 51:17.871 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes it's going to do insecure things, or you need all these books of how to attract men by playing hard to get. 51:18.091 --> 51:18.411 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 51:18.431 --> 51:36.086 [SPEAKER_00]: So all these insecure and then all the movies a lot of the rom-coms is more like, oh, this guy who never really wanted anyone and then you came in and then initially they pushed you away and then there's a breakage point and then they want the declaration of love. 51:36.266 --> 51:45.274 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, all the time and then he ends and there's like these happily ever after that's what the science tells us the science tells us that people have a hard time connecting 51:45.622 --> 52:11.747 [SPEAKER_00]: then they may be avoidant and they may continue to have a hard time connecting that it's not a given all the time they'll be immediately transformed because that's basically one of the biggest myth that's level conquer all but attachment science shows us that we're not all capable of the same kind of love or the same amount of love no we're not in some people who need more distance and they will need their distance and you'll have to come 52:14.647 --> 52:14.908 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 52:15.408 --> 52:15.728 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 52:16.249 --> 52:19.192 [SPEAKER_01]: I think this has been such a fascinating conversation. 52:19.213 --> 52:24.959 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think by take away from all of this is, I mean, first of all, everyone can be more secure. 52:24.979 --> 52:30.425 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you can share that and like feel like it's very much in reach and I love that and we can stop. 52:30.666 --> 52:31.527 [SPEAKER_01]: We are childhood. 52:31.567 --> 52:32.648 [SPEAKER_01]: You told us ourselves. 52:32.728 --> 52:34.150 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's all good to hear. 52:34.630 --> 52:51.592 [SPEAKER_01]: I think the biggest takeaways though that I have is like there's a difference of accepting bad behavior with hope that someone will become more secure versus, you know, doing knowing what carp traits to look out for, doing carp interventions, allowing someone to step up. 52:51.992 --> 53:17.393 [SPEAKER_01]: allowing them to understand like is this something that like I should be aware of and oh no I know that my partner will make my partner happy like we need to give people the chance and set them up for a success and I think only with that that's when you know because I don't want people to take away from this like everyone can become secure we'd see to like wait it out and you know like have them eventually becomes secure like they have to want to work with you and 53:17.713 --> 53:25.375 [SPEAKER_01]: the only way to tell if someone's going to work with you is to have these conversations and to put it out there what you need of these traits? 53:25.856 --> 53:28.476 [SPEAKER_00]: Early on, yeah, they're really better, yes. 53:28.616 --> 53:31.057 [SPEAKER_00]: Because once you get into it, it's hard to leave. 53:31.137 --> 53:39.140 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's not because you create this biological bond and it's hard to then you're, yeah, then you're kind of, you're stuck and it's hard. 53:39.160 --> 53:40.220 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right. 53:40.640 --> 53:49.404 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to connect a few dots in our conversation as my take away, which is I think we all come into dating

with secure kernels. 53:50.184 --> 53:54.846 [SPEAKER_02]: And we can meet other people who can amplify those kernels and we become more secure with them. 53:55.306 --> 54:04.951 [SPEAKER_02]: But until we find those other amplified secure kernels, we may be distracted by some of these people who like use it in here, which I'm going to remember 54:08.452 --> 54:08.792 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 54:08.872 --> 54:21.960 [SPEAKER_02]: So for all of us who are thinking, well, I'll just date around until I find that person who makes me feel secure, but you know, I'll just entertain all these other people who are inconsistent. 54:22.180 --> 54:23.541 [SPEAKER_02]: They're not responsive. 54:23.561 --> 54:24.401 [SPEAKER_02]: They're playing games. 54:24.421 --> 54:30.585 [SPEAKER_02]: But you know, I'll keep them around as a layover to my secure attachment. 54:31.105 --> 54:32.846 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that doesn't work. 54:32.926 --> 54:34.067 [SPEAKER_02]: And now we have the science. 54:34.347 --> 54:48.810 [SPEAKER_02]: behind it, which is these people activate your anxious or your insecure script, so therefore even if someone's secure came into the picture, you are interacting with them from an anxious or insecure script. 54:49.351 --> 54:54.172 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it doesn't give that person a chance to activate your secure kernels. 54:54.672 --> 54:59.453 [SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, why we have to take a mirror's advice and say, let's shorten that time. 55:04.835 --> 55:11.923 [SPEAKER_02]: Let them go so that you don't, you no longer miss out on the opportunity to let your secure kernels come out. 55:12.363 --> 55:19.451 [SPEAKER_00]: And remember also that we started with all of this stuff of creating your secure village of like having car friends around you. 55:19.792 --> 55:23.756 [SPEAKER_00]: Not those friends, you sort of you have to wait until the last minute on Friday or Saturday night. 55:24.377 --> 55:41.050 [SPEAKER_00]: But those that are really there and show up in a car way because once this, if it doesn't work out, you have this fallback of like this sort of really almost like this cushion, the social cushion that will carry you over until you get to the next person. 55:41.270 --> 55:46.996 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you also have friends that are like, shifty like that, that is like also compound. 55:47.116 --> 55:48.517 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's, yeah. 55:49.118 --> 55:52.401 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it trains you that that's acceptable right here, right? 55:52.501 --> 55:53.923 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and you're seeing a well, exactly. 55:53.943 --> 55:56.445 [SPEAKER_01]: Too much to ask for more, I think. 55:56.585 --> 55:57.206 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. 55:57.406 --> 56:02.011 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's something we hear a lot is like, yeah, and I'm glad we were able to address that. 56:02.051 --> 56:03.372 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, you only need one. 56:03.452 --> 56:04.033 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you again. 56:04.273 --> 56:13.817 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like so simple, but that reminder, like people need to hear it, it's like we, it's okay if we scare away the wrong people, like that's what you want to scare them away. 56:13.997 --> 56:14.677 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 56:14.817 --> 56:18.279 [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's actually, you were able to scare them away, that's actually a good thing. 56:19.219 --> 56:19.799 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, right. 56:19.939 --> 56:21.880 [SPEAKER_00]: Unless you do something like that. 56:21.900 --> 56:22.360 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah. 56:22.461 --> 56:23.621 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. 56:23.661 --> 56:25.742 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't do anything illegal by us. 56:26.122 --> 56:27.683 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually being very coming. 56:28.623 --> 56:33.205 [SPEAKER_00]: One of my patients in my practice, she was dating this guy, was the second time around. 56:33.845 --> 56:44.670 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's someone that has a story of also, like he's a womanizer, and then it's amazing how he makes the other person unravel. 56:45.030 --> 56:49.452 [SPEAKER_00]: At some point, she didn't feel comfortable during the day, she was like, 56:49.932 --> 56:56.456 [SPEAKER_00]: They texted in the morning, then maybe he got in touch at night, but then during the day in the middle of the day, she started to feel uneasy. 56:56.717 --> 56:57.717 [SPEAKER_00]: It started to feel uneasy. 56:58.137 --> 56:59.438 [SPEAKER_00]: And so she said, hey, you know what? 56:59.498 --> 57:01.800 [SPEAKER_00]: How about like, we texted each other also at lunch? 57:02.416 --> 57:02.716 [SPEAKER_00]: time. 57:02.736 --> 57:05.777 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, what do you mean, Texas, lunch? 57:06.057 --> 57:06.537 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm I work. 57:06.577 --> 57:07.398 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm busy at work. 57:07.458 --> 57:09.638 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, why do I need to text you at lunch time? 57:09.919 --> 57:11.219 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't I think it's too much. 57:11.579 --> 57:13.220 [SPEAKER_00]: But for her, it was important. 57:13.280 --> 57:13.640 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 57:13.900 --> 57:15.761 [SPEAKER_00]: And then she was like, why is it too much? 57:15.781 --> 57:17.701 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like a little text that you can send me. 57:18.201 --> 57:19.302 [SPEAKER_00]: No, you can't expect me. 57:19.362 --> 57:19.942 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm very busy. 57:19.962 --> 57:22.883 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, actually, she was easier than him. 57:23.063 --> 57:23.423 [SPEAKER_00]: It worked. 57:23.883 --> 57:28.165 [SPEAKER_00]: She had a much more, of course, in career, much more successful career. 57:29.165 --> 57:38.808 [SPEAKER_00]: So on all counts, if she could text him and then he could text her, but now, and then she finally after a little bit of time, she seemed reasonable. 57:38.868 --> 57:39.968 [SPEAKER_00]: What's the big deal, right? 57:40.308 --> 57:49.331 [SPEAKER_00]: So then after she let the person go, he was discovered that he had some sort of a fling in the workplace too. 57:49.691 --> 57:52.872

[SPEAKER_00]: And so you also sometimes when it's so unreasonable, 57:52.952 --> 57:54.633 [SPEAKER_00]: you're also there. 57:54.853 --> 57:55.993 [SPEAKER_01]: They might be something there. 57:56.014 --> 57:56.394 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 57:56.754 --> 57:59.635 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think that's like my last takeaway of all of this. 57:59.695 --> 58:03.237 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like relationships like are supposed to be additive to your life. 58:03.337 --> 58:04.998 [SPEAKER_01]: They are supposed to be freeing. 58:05.398 --> 58:10.520 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not supposed to preoccupy your thoughts and like keep you, like keep you up or not. 58:10.560 --> 58:10.961 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 58:11.221 --> 58:11.801 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no, no. 58:11.921 --> 58:12.681 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the opposite. 58:12.702 --> 58:14.002 [SPEAKER_00]: So secure relationships. 58:14.282 --> 58:15.003 [SPEAKER_00]: That's how I'm going to be. 58:15.063 --> 58:17.424 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to say, I'm going to say provocatively on a 58:22.426 --> 58:23.587 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, think about it. 58:23.667 --> 58:35.155 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, sometimes it's good to see to go back to the mother child interaction so that it's in the strange situation test, which is basically they bought that's when attachment styles were discovered by Mary and it's worth. 58:35.395 --> 58:38.958 [SPEAKER_00]: And you're being a child to a room full of toys and the mother is there. 58:38.978 --> 58:40.899 [SPEAKER_00]: And like they see all the new toys. 58:40.959 --> 58:41.740 [SPEAKER_00]: It gets so excited. 58:41.780 --> 58:43.181 [SPEAKER_01]: They start playing everyone's in a while. 58:43.201 --> 58:46.203 [SPEAKER_01]: They look back to see the mom is there and then they ask the mom to leave the room. 58:46.487 --> 58:58.570 [SPEAKER_00]: In the moment that you can see it on YouTube, they leave their room, they drop everything, they crawl through the doors, they're banking, crying, you'll try to distract it with your toy, they'll throw it in your face, they can care less about the toy, they don't wanna play. 58:59.030 --> 59:04.512 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a link between our attachment system and our exploratory drive. 59:04.532 --> 59:08.293 [SPEAKER_00]: Then we are securely attached when we're not activated that way. 59:08.833 --> 59:10.254 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't care so much about the mom. 59:10.274 --> 59:12.096 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like it doesn't, everyone's in awe. 59:12.116 --> 59:13.257 [SPEAKER_00]: It takes him to see if he's there. 59:13.357 --> 59:14.438 [SPEAKER_00]: He's like playing with toys. 59:14.858 --> 59:23.405 [SPEAKER_00]: As adults, we don't play with those toys anymore, but we work, we have careers, we're doing this podcast, we're doing things if we know in the back of our mind. 59:23.485 --> 59:29.290 [SPEAKER_00]: So that checking behavior like the text, the little text, it's like these little ways that we get reassurance. 59:29.551 --> 59:29.791 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 59:30.051 --> 59:32.732 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the relationship fades into the background. 59:33.012 --> 59:36.994 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's, I say, that secure relationships can be boring. 59:37.014 --> 59:37.254 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 59:37.814 --> 59:44.517 [SPEAKER_00]: And the thing that we hardly think about them dated all throughout the day, we know that they're there. 59:44.537 --> 59:45.678 [SPEAKER_00]: We know that we can trust it. 59:46.118 --> 59:47.359 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's like theirs. 59:47.419 --> 59:47.819 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 59:47.959 --> 59:50.140 [SPEAKER_00]: So they sort of fade into the background. 59:50.240 --> 59:52.641 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you know that you're in a secure relationship, because 59:53.121 --> 59:59.489 [SPEAKER_00]: You still can be, you can go on trips and you can fun things together, but in the day they fade into the background. 59:59.609 --> 01:00:04.074 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I knew, like, my husband was different because I had nothing to talk to my friends about. 01:00:04.094 --> 01:00:05.916 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly. 01:00:05.936 --> 01:00:08.219 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I have done these talk to my friends. 01:00:08.259 --> 01:00:12.864 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, thinking about this too, like, I know you obviously gave a lot of actionable steps to of, like, 01:00:13.184 --> 01:00:18.008 [SPEAKER_01]: How people can become more like carp centric and really prioritize that. 01:00:18.068 --> 01:00:26.416 [SPEAKER_01]: I think like for me I just got to a point that I'm like, I'm sick of wasting my life agonizing and staring at my food and like doing all these things. 01:00:26.476 --> 01:00:28.357 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like taking me away from living. 01:00:28.377 --> 01:00:32.601 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and like maybe it's just like hitting a point that you're like, I just don't want to do this any right. 01:00:32.801 --> 01:00:35.904 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's like the second tire to being second tired. 01:00:36.184 --> 01:00:54.394 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but also from all these podcasts and knowing that there's an alternative rights right that that's it and knowing to identify the alternative and like you said It's a numbers gave it a sense that you need to meet people But it's not a numbers gave that you need everyone to like you you just need one person Yeah, that it works. 01:00:54.795 --> 01:01:00.418 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, definitely not and not only that a lot of people go on dates and they think oh, I want them to like me 01:01:01.058 --> 01:01:23.321 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the wrong, that's not what you're looking for, like if they like you, but they're not a good match for you, then that's when you're in trouble, because then if you like them a lot and they like you, but they're not like they they can be carp that's when you're in trouble because that you can suffer a lot in like a long term relationship when the other person is not in tune to you and 01:01:24.141 --> 01:01:39.109 [SPEAKER_00]:

They can't shop for you in the way that you need them to, and the truth of the matter is, and that's why this whole seamy, you remember, the seemingly insignificant manner interaction, is that secure attachment is not about like shoring you with attention all the time. 01:01:39.369 --> 01:01:49.074 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's like about you fading into the background, and so it doesn't take that much work to be securely attached, but you can learn how to do that. 01:01:53.175 --> 01:02:02.120 [SPEAKER_00]: You learn not to wait to put your child to sleep when there's like super tires or you learn not to feed them when they're super hungry because then it's going to be hard. 01:02:02.500 --> 01:02:11.966 [SPEAKER_00]: You learn how to preemptively take care of their needs so it's better to put out a little flame before it becomes a force fire when it comes to the management. 01:02:12.186 --> 01:02:16.849 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much, Jamer, for dropping all your wisdom for our audience. 01:02:16.869 --> 01:02:22.533 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we, I mean, we'll be like, saw that you with this new book out, we're like, we absolutely need to get him out this podcast. 01:02:22.553 --> 01:02:24.035 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're so happy to have you. 01:02:24.075 --> 01:02:26.716 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you again for people out there. 01:02:26.877 --> 01:02:30.759 [SPEAKER_01]: Where can they get your book and listen to your class on masterclass? 01:02:31.180 --> 01:02:33.141 [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously masterclass, but yeah. 01:02:34.782 --> 01:02:55.246 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, definitely what I really would invite people to do is go to my website, which is Amir Levine and d.com, and take that attachment quiz and then you can get a map of all of your attachment styles across the board and find out who are those insecure people in your life, for those secure people in your life, to start building your secure village. 01:02:55.646 --> 01:03:00.567 [SPEAKER_00]: And you can get the book, like in Amazon, through the website, really take the quiz. 01:03:03.968 --> 01:03:13.595 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm going to do that right after this and we'll also I'm going to also link your website in our show notes for everyone that wants to go, they'll be able to wreck link there. 01:03:13.655 --> 01:03:14.175 [SPEAKER_01]: That's great. 01:03:14.235 --> 01:03:14.876 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much. 01:03:14.896 --> 01:03:15.736 [SPEAKER_00]: You were so much fun. 01:03:15.816 --> 01:03:16.617 [SPEAKER_02]: So much fun. 01:03:16.637 --> 01:03:19.859 [SPEAKER_02]: And for everybody out there, is it a catfish or a carp? 01:03:19.979 --> 01:03:20.980 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm chuckling at that. 01:03:21.040 --> 01:03:21.921 [SPEAKER_02]: Like a carp? 01:03:21.941 --> 01:03:22.761 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's exactly. 01:03:22.841 --> 01:03:25.283 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a catfish or a carp. 01:03:25.703 --> 01:03:27.305 [SPEAKER_02]: Find your carp, not your catfish. 01:03:27.345 --> 01:03:28.545 [SPEAKER_01]: It should be a t-shirt, yeah. 01:04:10.099 --> 01:04:10.219 [UNKNOWN]: You