BẢN CHÉP ÂM THANH 🔗
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Welcome to the Cigar Vishnauto Lounge and the Cigar Vishnu Podcast.
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I'm David Savona, joined here by Greg Matola.
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How you doing, Greg?
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I'm doing well.
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We are here to talk about what is a potentially divisive subject in the cigar world.
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Fat cigars.
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I I look at fat cigars like the way I look at brunch.
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People either love them or hate them.
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How do you feel about brunch, first and foremost?
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I am not a fan of brunch.
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I'm not surprised.
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Why don't you like brunch, Craig?
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What's wrong with brunch?
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Because it makes you skip a meal.
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I want breakfast.
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I want lunch.
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If you combine the two, you lose one.
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I mean, where's the value in that?
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So Greg does not like the all-you-can-drink mimosas.
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I got it.
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But let's talk about the cigars.
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And you've got some incredible cigars, some incredibly fat cigars here on the table in front of us, and we're smoking some big fat cigars right here.
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I am smoking the My Father, the Judge Gran Robusto, which is an excellent fat cigar.
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Some might say one of the best fat cigars ever made.
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The 2024 Cigar of the Year, we gave the cigar 98 points.
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And what do you smoke, Graham?
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The Monte Cristo, Nicaragua 1935 Anniversary Espeso, which I think in Spanish means thick.
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Um apologies if I didn't pronounce that correctly.
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60 ring gauge box press, the number two cigar of the same year.
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My personal feelings about thick ring gauge cigars aside, some of them are pretty darn good and we're smoking them right now.
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But I think generally speaking, you feel about thick cigars the same way you feel about brunch.
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You're generally it's not your go-to.
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Am I right?
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No, no, but you have to call out a good cigar when you see it.
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And or a great cigar in the case that this and even though I'm not naturally going for a 60 ring gauge cigar, when they show up in the blind tasting process, if they uh if they meet all the criteria, both in construction and in performance and in flavor and complexity, it doesn't matter that I personally don't like a 60 ring gauge cigar.
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If it burns right and draws right and is delicious, that goes out the window.
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My personal feelings, and I assess it fairly.
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Now, now, personal feelings aside, uh, and these uh these outstanding cigars aside, the uh fat cigar trend is here to stay, and it has become an important part of the cigar market, especially the United States cigar market, which of course is the largest in the world.
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And we do a uh a survey every year in Cigar Insider, our twice-monthly cigar newsletter.
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And the grande size, which is our size, our catch-all category for 60 ring gauge and and and above, you know, 60 and above.
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We we call them grandes.
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We call them grandes.
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And when we ask the retailers, the the people selling these cigars to name their most popular cigar sizes, what's selling the most?
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The Grande, in our last survey, rated uh third, named by just shy of 11% of retailers.
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There was a time when the Grande wasn't even a part of this cigar world, and it's been climbing up the ranks uh ever since we added it to our categories.
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Well, it's also been normalized.
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Look at all the news that we report on a new cigar line comes out.
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There's usually a 60-ring gauge cigar in there.
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There's no more Churchills, no more Coronas.
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Fewer and fewer, yes.
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The standard sizes, you get a toro or a busto, maybe a torpedo, and then you have that six by sixty because that is what sells.
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Now, of course, we came up with the name grande.
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Uh, there is no grande in the world of Cuban cigars, but most of the other categories, all the other categories you see in our cigar visionado taste test, with the exception of miscellaneous, they they they go back to the Cuban standard Robusto, Toro, or Corona Gorda, Churchill, uh, it's uh double corona.
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So we had to come up with a name when these cigars started popping up in greater and greater quantity.
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Do you recall when we added the Grande category to Cigar Vichinado?
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Yes, 2012.
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And that is part of the timeline I'm gonna go over in a little bit.
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Oh, okay, good 2012, because before um before 2012, when six by sixties were becoming um, I wouldn't say predominant, but you saw more and more of them, they were getting mixed into our Corona Gorda category.
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So you could have something as slender as 46 ring
Load full transcript
gauge be in the same category as 60 ring gauge, and they were kind of taking up the category so much so that we finally in 2012 said it's gotta have its own category.
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These fast cigars elbowed their way, they took over our category, we had to give them some room of their own.
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Yeah, and um we've had we have no trouble filling that category every issue when we uh when we rate them.
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There are just so many of them on the market.
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I mean, you said that would you come out with a new brand, you basically have to have, or most people would have a six by sixty or a fat cigar.
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No, no, absolutely.
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And it just goes to show how the internet can be misleading because you go in comment sections uh under articles, you look at the comments on Instagram and Facebook.
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When people are talking about cigars on Instagram, online in general, the online vocal majority is always they are always complaining about thick ring gauges.
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Now, if you were to go by the comments you read on Instagram, you think everyone smokes coronas, petite coronas, lanceros, and church's that they only want traditional sizes.
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That is those voices are the loudest online.
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In reality, that doesn't even come close to realistically reflecting the market because you talk to manufacturers and they say the corona, these coronas, I can make them, they won't sell.
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Or if they do make a corona, it's my least selling size.
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This cigar I'm smoking now, the espesso in the Monte Cristo Nicaragua 1935 anniversary line, it has a very small size called a demi.
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And it's it's just it's a 46 ring gauge, but it's short and it it's just slightly larger than a corona.
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And when you ask Altaris, that that's my favorite size in the line, and it is, of course, the least selling size, and that's true uh across the industry.
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So you can't always you can't always go by all the angry, passionate comments you see online.
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Right.
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Comments aside, these things sell, they sell like crazy.
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Talk about the timeline because they weren't part of the cigar world when when I started at the magazine 30 years.
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Well, they were, but they were they were there as a novelty.
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So I made this timeline a while ago and I started it kind of the the thick ring gauge spark happened in 87 when Honduran brand cubaliados they released a novelty cigar called the General, 18 inches long, 60 ring gauge.
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Then uh puros indios came out in 1994.
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Makers of uh um of uh cubaliados, they came out something the chief, same size as the general, but it was a novelty.
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And then cigars start getting a little thicker.
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1995, JC Newman releases Diamond Crown, everything was 54 ring gauge, right?
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Landmark cigar, but the 50 54 does not sound so fat now, but that was very back in the day, sure.
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Yep.
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Then you have Ernesto Perez Carrillo, La Gloria Cubana Serie R.
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Two-size line, 52 and 54 ring gauge, not that big, but here's where the major turning point was by my assessment, 2001.
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Because that was when the La Gloria Cubana Serie R was the first major nationally distributed premium cigar brand to release a 6x60 cigar.
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When you do 6x60 in in a brand like La Gloria Serie R, that's no longer a novelty.
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That is the that marked the normalization of 6x60.
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And then more and more, you had 6x60s coming out.
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Um we have uh 2004 Tatuaje with his grand Kohonu.
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Uh 2005, curiously named brand called XL for Men by Oliveros.
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Now, Oliveros, as that name does not exist anymore.
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Um, that's that was the the the old brand name, the old company for uh uh that Rafael Nodal had for his his aging room line.
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He was ahead of his time.
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Way ahead of his time because XL was not a commercial success.
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I think it was it was it was too much for the time.
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I mean, he came back with the six by sixty.
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Uh 2006, Altaris releases Siri G, St.
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Louis Ray, uh 56 ring gauge, 58 ring gauge, and 60.
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And I said the G stands for Higante, Gordo, Grande, or any other G word signifying prodigious girth.
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Then 2010 comes along.
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So the thickest cigar for the longest time in Cuba was 52 ring gauge.
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I mean, you had a Salamone that was kind of uh maybe maybe heavier than that.
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Uh, you had uh uh maybe a little thicker than that at its widest point, but I'm talking normal cigars.
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You had the Siglo 6, which was the Canyonazo 52 ring gauge, and you had uh any pramide shape, which was 52 ring gauge, and it stayed there for a long time.
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In 2010, Cuba gets in on the trend.
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They do the Romeo I Julieta wide Churchill 55 ring gauge cigar, and that opened the door for a lot of Cuban cigars because now you have the Siri
Loyo from Hoyo de Monterey, and these are 55, 56.
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Um, there may be one that I don't know if there's one 58.
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There's a new one that just came out, but they're in the 55 plus ring gauge.
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So these these really uh fat ring gauges that the trend really started in the US.
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You people thought, no, Cuba would never do that.
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They would never do that.
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They followed European smokers, they don't want that.
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Yes, they want that because who's buying these?
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I mean, there this is this is where they're sold.
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2011 uh Drew Estate.
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Remember the Muat?
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Remember, my Uzi weighs a ton.
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I think it was a reference to uh 60 Ring Gauge Cigar, I think it was a reference to uh uh hip-hop song.
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Then you had Ernesto Perez Carrillo, who I hold uh directly responsible for this, uh what he did in 2001 with La Gloria Cubana when he went out on his own.
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He creates the inch.
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Tell us about the inch, why it's called the inch.
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Well, the inch, uh, for those who know ring gauges, ring gauges are uh yeah, we have one right here.
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Yeah, so 64, a 64 ring gauge is one inch in diameter, and this is an inch.
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It has a uh uh looks like a ruler uh incorporated into the band, an inch in thickness, and it was a hit.
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It was a hit from the beginning.
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That brand goes up to 70 ring gauge.
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Uh 2013, a brand called Asylum 13.
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It released a 7x70 and then an 8x80.
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And then you also have room 101, the big payback, which we have here on the table too.
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We get into the teens, the 20 teens, and the cigars are just getting fatter and fatter and fatter.
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And then in 2016, Cuba produced its first, and to this day, only one commercially uh uh commercially released in a limited capacity Cuban cigar.
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It is the Cohiba 50 Anniversario, and that was 60 ring gauge cigar.
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It came in a very expensive humidor.
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We were there for that unveiling in 2016.
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Remember the big big cabinet doors with all the gold leaf in it.
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Yeah, sure.
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You're gonna have a big cabinet to hold such a big cigar, and inside were these 60 ring gauge cohibas, and they didn't hit 60 with it, but they've even gone fat with the Bahike line with the recent introduction of the Bahike 58, which is only available now in the four-pack, but is has been promised as a single release at some point.
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Because that line started, that line started thick 52 was the s the slimmest one.
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It's goes 52, 54, 56, and now and now 58.
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That brings us to this.
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Well, yeah, let's talk about these cigars that are on the table.
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I mean, look at this.
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This is this is massive.
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This is a an absolutely massive.
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Well, before we get to that, look at this.
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So you look at you look at this, this is a big payback.
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And this is 70 ring gauge cigar.
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Now, 70 ring gauge is huge.
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I mean, look at it compared to the 6x60.
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It dwarfs it.
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Right.
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But then you look at this.
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Now don't strain your forearm lifting that cigar, Greg.
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When it's wrapped, it looks like a Christmas salami.
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It looks like a Christmas salami.
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That's what I thought it was.
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When Christian Iroa gave this to me, I thought he was giving me a Christmas salami.
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Now, I know you haven't smoked one of those.
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No, and I never will.
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This episode of the Cigar Visionada podcast is brought to you by the Big Smoke Las Vegas, taking place November 6th and 7th.
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You can find out all about it at Las Vegas at BigSmoke.com, how long do you think it would take to smoke that cigar if you lit it up and didn't rush the process?
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Well, this is a nine by ninety.
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It is the Asylum April Fools.
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And I think this was for this was done for uh, I think uh um The Year of the Dragon.
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Wasn't this one of the this may have been one of the New Year's ones.
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I think it was.
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It certainly has has all the all the colors on the band.
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So you remember we did our at the Big Smoke, we did the seminar on the fat cigars.
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Fat cigar panel on the big smoke.
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Christian Iroa of CLE Cigars, who um got fame.
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Uh the the the the famous Iroa family growing Honduran tobacco, and they did Camatra cigars.
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Now he's on his own.
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And he also produces the Asylum.
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So I asked him, I said, Is this a novelty?
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Is this just a new version of the novelty?
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And he said, No, there is a legitimate market for a cigar like this.
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And I said, Yeah, who's smoking it?
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Who's smoking these cigars?
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The first thing he said were truck drivers.
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That's what he said.
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People in a long haul, they want to, they have a long time ahead of them, they want to break up the monotony.
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Which also brings us to the next question for these huge cigars.
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Why?
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Is it just the American phenomenon of bigger is better?
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I don't think so because thick cigars are you're you're you're seeing them in the Cuban portfolio.
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They're smoking them in Europe.
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Maybe no one will admit to smoking them in Europe, but they do.
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Every year we ask our retailers, why do your customers like these?
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We ask manufacturers, why do your customers like these huge cigars?
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And the answer we always get is is perceived value.
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A couple of bucks more, you get this huge cigar.
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They think it's just more cigar for their buck, more bang for their buck.
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It is more cigar, and it's not typically markedly more expensive.
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I mean, those big ones are, but if you go up a little bit, if you go from a from a Robusto size at a 50 ring gauge to a six by sixty, you're not looking at a huge upcharge typically.
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It might be a dollar, it might be fifty cents, etc.
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So you do get more for your money.
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Do you think you get a better smoking experience for that bigger size?
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In my opinion, no.
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Just because opening my mouth that wide for long periods of time, it's just it hurts that it's uncomfortable in my mouth.
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Aside from the aesthetics and the and the fact that maybe they're not as comfortable to hold or to smoke, I also think it changes the way a cigar burns.
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I I always or often feel that with a thicker cigar, I don't get the same volume of smoke, the same intensity of flavor that I would get in a in a smaller cigar.
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This is a different experience.
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I think box pressing helps that.
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I think that cigars is that my father, the judge, is it's softly pressed, but it's uh it's box pressed.
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This pressing is a little more severe.
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I think because of that, uh it it it it might help how it smokes, concentrates it a bit.
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But more more importantly, and you know, box pressing versus non-box pressing is a whole nother subject.
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But more importantly, I I think it it fits a little better in the mouth.
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It does.
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We met with a uh person from the cigar industry not too long ago, and we asked about the phenomenon of big cigars and what goes into making them, and he was rather candid.
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He said, Well, you don't necessarily use your best tobaccos in the fatter cigars.
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No, I think that was true for a certain time.
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I think as the trend was was was starting to build and there was a demand, I think it was all right, we'll make these cigars for this this kind of um uh this kind of marginal crowd.
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:32.720
And once that crowd wasn't so small anymore, I think they took it seriously.
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:34.880
And uh, we're smoking the proof right here.
00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:38.319
That was the you're smoking the number one cigar of 2024.
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.920
I'm the number two cigar of of of 2024.
00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.920
That doesn't happen making scraps and using garbage tobacco.
00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:46.640
Not at all.
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:47.039
You're right.
00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:57.599
So the so maybe uh with certain cigar sizes, you're not seeing the best of tobaccos, but when you use great tobacco in great quantities, you get phenomenal results like what we're smoking here.
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:02.160
Now, Greg, novelty is gone, it's part of the market.
00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:08.319
We've we've we've seen 60 ring gauge, 70 ring gauge, 90 ring gauge.
00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:11.759
Uh, there have been some some even bigger sizes.
00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.240
Where do you think this fat cigar trend goes?
00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:16.960
Where do we where do you see it going the next couple of years?
00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:22.480
I think I think 60 is probably here to stay.
00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:29.920
I think seven, I think anything above that, I think 70s, 80s, 90s, I think that I think that stuff levels off.
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:35.920
I still look at this as novelty, even if this is someone's go-to cigar.
00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:38.000
Um and if it is more power to them.
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:40.640
If that's the cigar you like, that's the cigar you like.
00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:43.440
Did you ever smoke anything this big before?
00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:45.920
Uh you know what I did smoke one time.
00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:52.480
I smoked the the Fuente Fuente Opus X football cigar, which is it's thick, but it's tapered.
00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:55.920
It it's like a football, so that's you you don't have to open your mouth quite as wide.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:57.599
I felt bad after lighting it up.
00:18:57.680 --> 00:18:58.559
It was a work of art.
00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:03.839
I smoked it during uh during a football game uh uh in in my cigar friendly basement.
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:08.640
It was so it was very appropriate to the uh to the moment, but I felt like I was destroying a piece of art.
00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:12.160
And uh, you know, it it it was uh kind of a tough experience.
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:13.920
That's that's a lot of cigar to smoke.
00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:18.720
It's not often I get a tobacco buzz, but I I have a feeling that if I smoked one of those, I wouldn't.
00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:23.200
When Christian was on the panel, he said how many, how many robustos are in there.
00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:27.759
I I can't remember off the top of my head, but but there are there are many, many robustos.
00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:30.240
Uh there's that that's how much tobacco is in that.
00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.440
So you know, would you rather have four or five robustos of one of this?
00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:35.279
I'd personally pick the Robusto.
00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:37.119
Well, to each his own.
00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:40.079
So fat cigars, here to stay.
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:44.720
Uh for some people it's the it's the it's their favorite thing in the world.
00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:47.680
For others, it's uh maybe more like brunch, right, Greg?
00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:50.960
Uh 60 ring gauge is uh pretty much as far as I go.
00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:53.440
Thanks for joining us on the Cigar Vishnu podcast.
00:19:53.519 --> 00:20:00.160
Be sure to subscribe, check us out uh YouTube, Spotify, Apple, and of course the Cigar Vishnuta website.
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:03.119
And come join us again from the Cigar Vishnu Lounge here in New York.
00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:04.079
See you next time.
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:05.119
Thank you.