Bản chép lời đầy đủ của Roundtable_024 - The Aftermath

00:04:14,880 fourth person, but regardless, we intend to have at least four, maybe even five people going forward 66 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:23,380 to have a decent group with a broader conversation because you get the same people every time and 67 00:04:23,380 --> 00:04:28,920 to get a different group and a broader conversation on all the things that are going on. 68 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,420 And with that, let's get into today's roundtable. 69 00:04:33,980 --> 00:04:39,800 This is myself, my brother Jeff, and Steve, The Aftermath. 70 00:04:48,260 --> 00:04:56,520 Maybe actually, just in case we don't, can you give your rough assessment and your thought of BIP 110 and what you wanted to see? 71 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:04,320 Yeah, I hoped that the Bit.10 software could have won. I thought it was a better set of 72 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:23,960 consensus rules And I really wanted to see you know core kind of like take a shot and you know make them have to step back a little bit But mostly I just thought the off return the data carrier size I thought that was just a superior set of consensus rules 73 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:25,720 And I just wanted to see that adopted. 74 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:36,400 um having lost the soft fork um yeah i think it's uh kind of just um 75 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:43,640 to to expect luke and and mechanic and that crew to kind of like hang in 76 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:52,740 to the you know legacy mothership core whatever and just continually like fight and be a dissenting 77 00:05:52,740 --> 00:05:59,860 voice or whatever is just a little, it's wishful thinking because from their perspective, 78 00:05:59,860 --> 00:06:02,820 they tried what they could. 79 00:06:02,1000 --> 00:06:06,800 And it was clear that the community kind of didn't want what they were doing. 80 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,140 And they didn't, they had been trying for a long time, you know, from Luke's perspective, 81 00:06:11,140 --> 00:06:19,220 he's just been, he's felt like his power had been reducing and reducing over a series of 82 00:06:19,220 --> 00:06:23,080 what, like 10 years, like especially over the last five years. 83 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:29,1000 And so I think it's just kind of like, yeah, that was never going to happen. 84 00:06:29,1000 --> 00:06:36,860 Like they were never going to just like stay and continually be a small and less powerful 85 00:06:36,860 --> 00:06:39,140 dissenting voice in the camp. 86 00:06:39,620 --> 00:06:43,180 And I'm glad they forked off for two reasons. 87 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,700 Like one is, and when I say they, I mean like me too. 88 00:06:47,700 --> 00:06:58,320 I mean, I'm not selling anything, but I'm wishing them all the best, and I'm, like, helping them every way I can to, like, build a good fork or whatever. 89 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:06,900 um and so for two reasons like uh i'm i'm happy to see them start their own project you know with 90 00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:14,480 kind of ocean like

datum stuff and they're the very beginning and um a shot at you know 91 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:21,660 much better minor decentralization um it's a new experiment to me and who better than luke 92 00:07:21,660 --> 00:07:27,740 to like lead that experiment like i think that's great and also in terms of like you know 93 00:07:27,740 --> 00:07:36,400 still on the mothership, maybe Luke wasn't the right leader of the dissenting voice of 94 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:43,900 core. Like if you want there to be like a, um, a group there that's pushing back against core, 95 00:07:43,1000 --> 00:07:49,840 maybe changing too much and maybe not listening to what the community wants enough and stuff like 96 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:55,960 that. Uh, maybe Luke isn't the right person to, um, be the head of that group. I'm sure he, 97 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:01,440 he feels like he wasn't so maybe somebody old new step up i mean maybe it'd be jeff 98 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:09,120 you know i i think it's really unfortunate that they're that they're not going to be there in that 99 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:17,720 in the same way i think to me the growth of ocean and the growth of support for filters and knots 100 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:24,540 and all of that that we were seeing was just like just required patience like i think i think if you 101 00:08:24,540 --> 00:08:32,780 were patient and you let the growth of datum the growth of knots and and just decentralized filter 102 00:08:32,780 --> 00:08:40,120 adoption be the thing that was you know just slowly trickling in getting bigger whatever 103 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:47,940 um you know slowly snowballing um that that was really the the better thing because no there is 104 00:08:47,940 --> 00:08:52,800 no perfectly even you know like the core devs will tell you like you know well you can't stop 105 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:58,860 all of it we can we can do it another way you know and so so like how are you gonna stop me 106 00:08:58,860 --> 00:09:09,140 yeah the whole goal is to have to have a a culture that just is not welcoming to the sort of spam 107 00:09:09,140 --> 00:09:15,560 right and so if you're block blocking it or making it difficult to get these things into 108 00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:23,220 the mempool, then that's a decent approach to all of this. 109 00:09:24,180 --> 00:09:29,760 And so having different mempool implementations, having different filters, having different 110 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:34,540 nodes, all of that, I think, is decentralization, right? 111 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,660 Like you let the network and the network node runners decide. 112 00:09:39,900 --> 00:09:45,100 And you let the miners make their own templates and also decide. 113 00:09:45,560 --> 00:10:10,320 Um, and so, so I thought that that, like, I was very, I was very excited about how that was going. And then when they announced BIP 110, I was kind of like, okay, I remember having a conversation with a mechanic. He was like, well, we tried it this way and it wasn't working. So we're, we're going to try it at, you know, we're going to try to soft fork or whatever. We're going to try to fork it off as, you know, and do it that way. 114 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,380 but I just remember thinking like that doesn't 115 00:10:12,380 --> 00:10:14,480 like I feel like what we 116 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,460 were doing we had some momentum 117 00:10:16,460 --> 00:10:18,580 like there was more and more adoption 118 00:10:18,580 --> 00:10:35,759 of knots it was more and more adoption of you know datum and whatever like ocean was growing like I felt like all that was we were getting good signals Hey we winning It just slow And and now it just feels like the whole thing was sort of a like I said before like a foot 119 00:10:35,759 --> 00:10:41,539 gun, like, you know, but the thing is, is that I'm not, I would not be a good spokesperson for 120 00:10:41,539 --> 00:10:47,419 this sort of thing because I don't have like, like you need somebody like Luke, but that also 121 00:10:47,419 --> 00:10:48,739 has, you know, 122 00:10:49,079 --> 00:10:51,439 I mean, honestly, Mechanic and Luke 123 00:10:51,439 --> 00:10:53,659 together were a pretty good team 124 00:10:53,659 --> 00:10:55,779 because Mechanic's very good 125 00:10:55,779 --> 00:10:57,719 at, you know, explaining 126 00:10:57,719 --> 00:10:59,079 things and talking with people. 127 00:10:59,699 --> 00:11:01,579 And Luke is not 128 00:11:01,579 --> 00:11:03,139 great at that, but he's 129 00:11:03,139 --> 00:11:05,519 clearly understands Bitcoin, 130 00:11:05,819 --> 00:11:07,759 right? I don't know. I don't know what's 131 00:11:07,759 --> 00:11:09,659 going to fill that hole. And maybe they aren't 132 00:11:09,659 --> 00:11:11,179 gone-gone, but... 133 00:11:11,179 --> 00:11:12,699 Steve, you mentioned that 134 00:11:12,699 --> 00:11:15,699 it felt like 135 00:11:15,699 --> 00:11:17,259 they had tried for, you know, 136 00:11:17,419 --> 00:11:23,899 10 years or whatever and they were losing relevance or whatever is i kind of felt the opposite um 137 00:11:26,219 --> 00:11:31,259 yeah or similar to what jeff was just saying is that i feel like the last two years 138 00:11:31,259 --> 00:11:38,619 it's had nothing but momentum in that direction and i also think in fact one of the when we've 139 00:11:38,619 --> 00:11:42,819 started the very first conversations about BIP 110. 140 00:11:43,479 --> 00:11:46,119 I, I use the analogy, right? 141 00:11:46,119 --> 00:11:50,659 I, the mechanic and I went back and forth on this show for some little span or 142 00:11:50,659 --> 00:11:53,379 whatever, and I really kind of felt this the entire time. 143 00:11:53,379 --> 00:12:01,479 I still, I mean, I feel like in hindsight, I'm justified in that thinking in, 144 00:12:01,479 --> 00:12:06,859 you know, whatever sense that what I believe is what happens, whether or not the, 145 00:12:07,379 --> 00:12:07,839 you know, 146 00:12:08,619 -->

00:12:12,299 all the details or whatever or actual confirmation or not or if it's just me 147 00:12:13,499 --> 00:12:17,259 being able to say oh well this happened and i thought it was going to happen so obviously i'm 148 00:12:17,259 --> 00:12:23,019 right about everything you know confirmation bias and all that stuff but um was that it was just an 149 00:12:23,019 --> 00:12:30,059 overplay of the hand you know it was going all in when you had your first you know two jacks 150 00:12:30,059 --> 00:12:36,699 there was actual like we have never like this is the most significant thing is ocean was growing 151 00:12:36,699 --> 00:12:48,939 and we had 20 percent from 0.1 to 0.2 percent no from 0.1 ocean was nothing before bit.1 10 to a 152 00:12:48,939 --> 00:12:54,319 full two percent because of bit.1 10 well it was one but you guys are talking about before bit.1 153 00:12:54,319 --> 00:13:02,499 10 was announced right so in my perspective bit.1 10 is what made the huge jump in knots and 154 00:13:02,499 --> 00:13:10,519 and ocean like so you're talking about 2024 knots growing the growth in knots happened 155 00:13:10,519 --> 00:13:19,519 before bip 110 it happened after the opera turn stuff and before bip 110 bip 110 it did take 156 00:13:19,519 --> 00:13:24,999 another run after the announcement of the software yeah but it was not the bulk of the adoption of 157 00:13:24,999 --> 00:13:32,219 knots we were i felt like we were in a good position for a um and i mean we as in like the 158 00:13:32,219 --> 00:13:37,299 entire Bitcoin network, we've never had an alternative client get 20% of the network, 159 00:13:37,539 --> 00:13:45,079 even 10% of the network. That was a huge deal. Like I've always been like, Bitcoin was great. 160 00:13:45,359 --> 00:13:49,959 You know, like it's like an alternative client that not as great as alternative client, but it 161 00:13:49,959 --> 00:13:55,219 was like, they were always like 20 nodes out of 10,000, you know, it was just always tiny. 162 00:13:55,939 --> 00:14:01,859 And I felt like that was a huge win. Like, you know, we were playing poker and, uh, and I, 163 00:14:01,859 --> 00:14:06,279 And it's not even because like, oh, I was all for Bit.10 or something. 164 00:14:06,359 --> 00:14:09,479 I just mean in the sense of like competing clients. 165 00:14:09,479 --> 00:14:14,399 I think it's important to have differences of opinion about the direction that Bitcoin 166 00:14:14,399 --> 00:14:16,259 can go or should go. 167 00:14:16,959 --> 00:14:22,459 And that actually prevents any one group or perspective from dominating. 168 00:14:22,619 --> 00:14:23,959 And I think that's the best thing. 169 00:14:24,039 --> 00:14:29,539 What we want is the lowest common denominator of agreement to actually occur, to actually 170 00:14:29,539 --> 00:14:30,659 happen on the chain. 171 00:14:30,659 --> 00:14:45,579 And I think forking away from that puts perspective or puts opinions back in one pool. It takes the, you know, that 10% defiance and turns it into 2% defiance, which can just easily be ignored. 172 00:14:45,579 --> 00:14:52,439 yeah we it's just like it's just like when when they create you know was it gab or one of these 173 00:14:52,439 --> 00:14:58,819 like social networks or whatever and or even even nostor right like what happened is that 174 00:14:58,819 --> 00:15:06,939 like bitcoin twitter took a huge hit right like like a lot of the saner voices left because there 175 00:15:06,939 --> 00:15:13,599 was a a saner place to have conversations and it so what it does is it leaves the normies 176 00:15:13,599 --> 00:15:16,439 without the... 177 00:15:16,439 --> 00:15:18,899 The counter-opinion. 178 00:15:20,179 --> 00:15:20,499 Right. 179 00:15:20,999 --> 00:15:22,719 And it's not that I'm... 180 00:15:22,719 --> 00:15:24,559 I'm not saying we should all stay on Twitter, 181 00:15:24,559 --> 00:15:26,459 but the thing is that Bitcoin 182 00:15:26,459 --> 00:15:28,979 has the monetary network effect. 183 00:15:29,159 --> 00:15:30,559 It is the thing that's... 184 00:15:31,379 --> 00:15:51,619 There only going to be one Bitcoin So having different implementations and people the minority can win in Bitcoin That what literally like we beat all of the corporate you know big what was the New York 185 00:15:51,619 --> 00:15:57,799 agreement or whatever, the big influencers during the block size war. And now maybe, I don't know if 186 00:15:57,799 --> 00:16:01,499 that was like, were the small blockers technically a minority? 187 00:16:01,739 --> 00:16:03,239 I don't know if that's true. 188 00:16:03,239 --> 00:16:07,119 But the node runners were the people that did not have the most, 189 00:16:07,219 --> 00:16:11,259 like, the most political influence in the network. 190 00:16:11,259 --> 00:16:12,459 Over institutional power. 191 00:16:13,479 --> 00:16:15,079 Right, over institutional power. 192 00:16:15,179 --> 00:16:16,779 That's a good way to say it. 193 00:16:17,859 --> 00:16:22,739 And so, you know, Roger Verr was sure that he was going to win. 194 00:16:22,819 --> 00:16:23,639 He had all the miners. 195 00:16:23,879 --> 00:16:26,499 He had, you know, Coinbase and all these other things. 196 00:16:26,499 --> 00:16:28,599 and then they didn't. 197 00:16:28,819 --> 00:16:34,139 So if you don't have, you know, 198 00:16:34,439 --> 00:16:37,039 the like an intolerant minority 199 00:16:37,039 --> 00:16:40,819 that can, you know, keep Bitcoin on the right path, 200 00:16:41,819 --> 00:16:42,819 I don't know. 201 00:16:42,879 --> 00:16:43,899 I think it's bad for Bitcoin. 202 00:16:44,359 --> 00:16:45,339 I do too. 203 00:16:45,499 --> 00:16:47,519 And, you know, a good way to have kept that 204 00:16:47,519 --> 00:16:48,919 would have been to like come out 205 00:16:48,919 --> 00:16:50,539 really in support of BIP 110. 206 00:16:51,219 --> 00:16:52,799 I mean, that was part of the reason 207 00:16:52,799 --> 00:16:55,239 that I was like so for it 208

00:16:55,239 --> 00:16:59,339 is because I wanted them to stay. 209 00:16:59,779 --> 00:17:01,339 Not only did I want them to stay, 210 00:17:01,559 --> 00:17:04,779 I wanted them to be like the dominant voice 211 00:17:04,779 --> 00:17:07,179 of like protocol changes. 212 00:17:07,399 --> 00:17:08,639 I wanted to fire core. 213 00:17:09,639 --> 00:17:11,819 You know, that's why I went so hard for BIP-110. 214 00:17:13,179 --> 00:17:14,939 I would prefer that too. 215 00:17:15,279 --> 00:17:17,219 But at the same time, I never felt, 216 00:17:17,579 --> 00:17:18,599 and maybe it's ignorance. 217 00:17:18,899 --> 00:17:19,199 I don't know. 218 00:17:19,299 --> 00:17:21,579 I genuinely never felt incredibly, 219 00:17:21,579 --> 00:17:24,499 I would have been okay, certainly, 220 00:17:24,499 --> 00:17:28,499 if BIP-110 had happened, you know, if everybody had supported it, 221 00:17:28,759 --> 00:17:29,419 that would have been great. 222 00:17:29,799 --> 00:17:34,959 The problem is I felt very comfortable adopting knots, adopting filters, 223 00:17:35,679 --> 00:17:37,199 you know, those sorts of things. 224 00:17:37,439 --> 00:17:43,659 And I don't see why just the slow and steady promotion of those things 225 00:17:43,659 --> 00:17:46,039 doesn't solve the problem just as well. 226 00:17:46,039 --> 00:17:50,119 And maybe, again, maybe I'm stupid, you know. 227 00:17:50,339 --> 00:17:54,479 Well, I mean, because when you say there's like a slow and steady adoption, 228 00:17:54,499 --> 00:17:56,719 of filters and stuff. 229 00:17:56,799 --> 00:17:57,499 And I agree. 230 00:17:57,739 --> 00:18:02,259 And then Core fires back and blows out data carrier size. 231 00:18:02,379 --> 00:18:08,039 It was pretty clear that Core was going to keep firing back against whatever Knott's 232 00:18:08,039 --> 00:18:11,459 was trying to do with their filters and stuff. 233 00:18:11,579 --> 00:18:14,059 You know, that's why they went after consensus. 234 00:18:14,319 --> 00:18:19,599 I mean, Core is very clear that they do not want people to have different filters. 235 00:18:19,919 --> 00:18:22,599 They want everybody to have the exact same filters. 236 00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:29,219 but they can't control that right right but that's what they want blowing out data carrier size does 237 00:18:29,219 --> 00:18:33,719 what to people running knots well they're more likely to be able to control it if everybody who 238 00:18:33,719 --> 00:18:39,979 disagrees forks off well it just floods the the network it potentially floods the network with a 239 00:18:39,979 --> 00:18:46,979 lot more stuff that they have to filter out i guess right okay the thing i aside from my 240 00:18:46,979 --> 00:18:51,959 philosophical agreement with the ideas of spam, my endless 241 00:18:51,959 --> 00:18:55,879 frustration with people saying that if you make the op return 242 00:18:55,879 --> 00:18:59,599 size small by consensus that you're censoring transactions, 243 00:19:00,019 --> 00:19:05,139 that God, that just just grew me, drew me crazy. And as I've 244 00:19:05,139 --> 00:19:07,399 said a billion times, but it doesn't seem to sink into 245 00:19:07,399 --> 00:19:11,099 anybody's brain, regardless of whether or not it's valid, or 246 00:19:11,099 --> 00:19:15,379 it's, it means that you're able to stop anything. And in fact, 247 00:19:15,379 --> 00:19:20,899 that's exactly how you know it's spam is because you can't just shrink the op return size and stop 248 00:19:20,899 --> 00:19:23,439 spam from happening because they can just stick it somewhere else because it has nothing to do 249 00:19:23,439 --> 00:19:28,799 with the fucking transaction but anyway um all that aside and my philosophical agreement with 250 00:19:28,799 --> 00:19:36,819 the idea that it must be a hardened explicitly purposed monetary protocol and the idea of just 251 00:19:36,819 --> 00:19:40,959 kind of like sticking in a bunch of places where just like put whatever the fuck you want here 252 00:19:40,959 --> 00:19:47,219 is really dumb. You'll always be able to do that. The idea of explicitly giving those places, 253 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:55,119 I've always thought was a dumb path. That said, I've also never thought that that exact fight 254 00:19:55,119 --> 00:20:05,239 was existential. I tried to, I sat down with Luke and Chris and Mechanic and like two or three other 255 00:20:05,239 --> 00:20:11,519 people at a Plan B conference in El Salvador and we like hashed it out because I was disagreeing 256 00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:15,679 with all of them on this and they were like trying to make me feel, trying to convince me that this 257 00:20:15,679 --> 00:20:20,539 was an existential thing. And I was like, listen, I agree with so many of your perspectives or 258 00:20:20,539 --> 00:20:27,299 positions on like the general concept behind it. But like I'm, you know, I was always supposed to 259 00:20:27,299 --> 00:20:34,359 be worried about like the competition between normal transactions and spam while I was using 260 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,699 Bitcoin every day and I would never have had a clue that any of this was happening if I hadn't 261 00:20:38,699 --> 00:20:43,939 gone to Twitter to read about the arguments or if I hadn't gone and done blockchain analysis. 262 00:20:43,939 --> 00:20:49,879 I use it every single day and I don't think about it at all. And there were only a 263 00:20:50,011 --> 00:20:56,971 like two or three very short spike periods in which it was truly meaningful. And I was like, 264 00:20:57,071 --> 00:21:00,551 what the hell? And then I would go find out that, you know, there was an ordinal thing happening 265 00:21:00,551 --> 00:21:07,811 during the happening, right? But I'll put all that aside. I never thought it was existential. 266 00:21:08,091 --> 00:21:14,991 And the only fight that I was truly concerned about and thought was really, really important 267 00:21:14,991 --> 00:21:19,391 was the decentralization of

mining, was the block template problem. 268 00:21:19,731 --> 00:21:23,671 And I put that as at least an order of magnitude more important 269 00:21:23,671 --> 00:21:28,071 than whether or not we had any explicit or complete solution for spam. 270 00:21:28,771 --> 00:21:32,091 I also was not even slightly afraid of the Bit.10 rules. 271 00:21:32,851 --> 00:21:35,111 The more and more I looked into it, the more I was just like, 272 00:21:35,231 --> 00:21:39,171 okay, whatever, limit the size of a public key to a public key. 273 00:21:40,171 --> 00:21:41,871 Cool. Get rid of op-if. 274 00:21:41,871 --> 00:21:44,531 And they're like, oh, it's going to break mini script, and it's going to break. 275 00:21:44,531 --> 00:21:55,091 And at first, I actually was a little bit against the idea of removing Op-If until I realized that you literally kind of dug into it. 276 00:21:55,271 --> 00:22:03,731 And I was like, well, you actually don't want to use Miniscript the same way with Taproot because the whole point of leaves is like it's actually better to not have Op-If. 277 00:22:04,051 --> 00:22:10,931 We should have never put Op-If inside of Taproot because if you do it with leaves, it's more private and it's more compact. 278 00:22:10,931 --> 00:22:13,591 it's more efficient and more private 279 00:22:13,591 --> 00:22:16,291 and both from computation storage 280 00:22:16,291 --> 00:22:17,691 and privacy perspective 281 00:22:17,691 --> 00:22:19,391 it is better to not use op-if 282 00:22:19,391 --> 00:22:21,371 and use separate tap leaves 283 00:22:21,371 --> 00:22:24,011 which is the whole design of tap root 284 00:22:24,011 --> 00:22:25,851 I don't even know what the analogy is 285 00:22:25,851 --> 00:22:26,791 but you make a better tool 286 00:22:26,791 --> 00:22:28,991 and then you leave the inefficient mechanism in it 287 00:22:28,991 --> 00:22:30,711 and everybody still just uses the inefficient one 288 00:22:30,711 --> 00:22:32,111 and it's like we'll use the better tool 289 00:22:32,111 --> 00:22:35,011 but still just do all the inefficient stuff 290 00:22:35,011 --> 00:22:36,871 it's like well no you make the better tool 291 00:22:36,871 --> 00:22:38,011 without the inefficient path 292 00:22:38,011 --> 00:22:44,291 and and if it breaks miniscript well that's just because taproot isn't built for miniscript and you 293 00:22:44,291 --> 00:22:50,131 just take out opif and you just say tap leaf you just place that in it um and it's a totally positive 294 00:22:50,131 --> 00:22:54,751 reason doesn't even have to do with spam getting rid of opif is that would actually be a benefit to 295 00:22:54,751 --> 00:23:01,451 taproot i think um yeah it absolutely would but what what it would show though is that no one 296 00:23:01,451 --> 00:23:06,931 actually uses it because like if you yeah if you look at like the correct uses of tap script and 297 00:23:06,931 --> 00:23:10,671 And we shouldn't generalize Taproot because Taproot has things that. 298 00:23:10,891 --> 00:23:10,991 Sorry. 299 00:23:11,311 --> 00:23:11,551 Sorry. 300 00:23:12,031 --> 00:23:12,811 Yeah, TapScript. 301 00:23:13,031 --> 00:23:13,191 Yeah. 302 00:23:13,491 --> 00:23:25,011 I mean, what you can see is that transactions that use TapScript would be like 0.001% of transactions over the past. 303 00:23:25,011 --> 00:23:30,671 Like ever since it was like you'd see that like no one actually wanted Mast at all. 304 00:23:31,331 --> 00:23:33,951 And that was like the whole point of it. 305 00:23:33,951 --> 00:23:40,211 The only reason TapScript is used is for the OpF hack to get the data in there. 306 00:23:40,211 --> 00:23:45,251 I mean, like you said, Taproot was so that you could hide all these branches. 307 00:23:45,931 --> 00:23:52,471 The only reason people use TapScript was to reveal branches, like the exact opposite. 308 00:23:53,191 --> 00:23:57,691 They're like, how can I get this branch be as most revealed as possible? 309 00:23:57,851 --> 00:23:59,351 Oh, I'll use this OpF bug. 310 00:23:59,351 --> 00:24:07,271 because it didn't get used for privacy it got used for the the mechanism for trying to have the 311 00:24:07,271 --> 00:24:14,851 the most exposure of the script data that you possibly could have uh that's oh the irony 312 00:24:14,851 --> 00:24:19,651 that was basically across the board with bit 110 like all this like one of the other things is uh 313 00:24:19,651 --> 00:24:26,311 i think it was like vortex said all the time it's like it breaks l2 and and lightning uh uh symmetry 314 00:24:26,311 --> 00:24:28,671 and so I dug into that too 315 00:24:28,671 --> 00:24:31,591 and that turns out to not be true 316 00:24:31,591 --> 00:24:33,431 the only thing that it even affects 317 00:24:33,431 --> 00:24:35,531 is the very first implementation 318 00:24:35,531 --> 00:24:37,271 of LN symmetry 319 00:24:37,271 --> 00:24:39,711 but since 320 00:24:39,711 --> 00:24:41,591 there were two different mechanisms 321 00:24:41,591 --> 00:24:42,751 that have been implemented 322 00:24:42,751 --> 00:24:45,631 or optimized to improve it 323 00:24:45,631 --> 00:24:47,491 and neither one of them are affected 324 00:24:47,491 --> 00:24:48,471 by what was in BIP-110 325 00:24:48,471 --> 00:24:51,631 so everybody screaming that the sky is falling 326 00:24:51,631 --> 00:24:52,331 over BIP-110 327 00:24:52,331 --> 00:24:55,091 I always thought 328 00:24:55,091 --> 00:24:56,851 I thought the whole time this was politics. 329 00:24:57,391 --> 00:24:58,671 Like this was about power. 330 00:24:59,091 --> 00:25:02,531 And I think most people on the BIP 110 side talk about it in the context of power. 331 00:25:03,151 --> 00:25:08,951 And most people defend or talk against it on the concept of power. 332 00:25:09,191 --> 00:25:17,251 Is that like core is the thoughtful, organized, structured, check your work, independent thing. 333 00:25:17,511 --> 00:25:21,371 And Luke is the defiant fire core path. 334 00:25:21,371 --> 00:25:32,091

And that is what I heard all the time and that it was really about the influence over protocol decisions and which voice was going to be the dominant. 335 00:25:32,091 --> 00:25:40,531 that in my mind, despite the fact that I thought core had less influence than they had had in a 336 00:25:40,531 --> 00:25:47,951 really long time because of this debate, because of the loss of respect when they clearly, and I 337 00:25:47,951 --> 00:25:53,611 still, I can't believe the people who are anti BIP 110, who still just don't even agree with this 338 00:25:53,611 --> 00:26:09,528 or don recognize that this is what happened The absolute dismissal of all the people who run the Bitcoin software and who care about this and put their life savings in it And the basic of shutting down the conversation and pushing something through into the client 339 00:26:09,528 --> 00:26:18,828 as if they're just the ones who decide and nobody else has any part in this. Like the dismissal and 340 00:26:18,828 --> 00:26:32,188 the lack of humility and diplomacy, I guess. 341 00:26:32,328 --> 00:26:34,468 I don't even know what the word is. 342 00:26:34,648 --> 00:26:40,588 The lack of sense in the fact that they were making changes 343 00:26:40,588 --> 00:26:43,348 that would affect everyone because the default 344 00:26:43,348 --> 00:26:46,388 and the standards of the reference client do matter. 345 00:26:46,388 --> 00:26:56,588 and the utter dismissal to a 13-year battle and 13-year debate that we're in charge and we're 346 00:26:56,588 --> 00:27:05,108 just going to do it was pretty gross to me. It was a total utter failure of the process and the 347 00:27:05,108 --> 00:27:11,168 people who, the few people who maintained the GitHub and who had control over shutting down 348 00:27:11,168 --> 00:27:17,248 conversation and pushing and merging things. I think you'd have to be just as blind to say that 349 00:27:17,248 --> 00:27:21,968 that wasn't important or that that wasn't a part of this whole thing and that that wasn't really 350 00:27:21,968 --> 00:27:28,448 what started this being so vicious as saying that BIP110 was supposed to win and it was actually 351 00:27:28,448 --> 00:27:33,728 the majority and it only failed because three mining pools said no. Like I think those are 352 00:27:33,728 --> 00:27:36,648 They're equally delusional to dismiss both of those things. 353 00:27:37,868 --> 00:27:43,928 With that said, what they changed wasn't a consensus rule. 354 00:27:44,668 --> 00:27:49,608 So it made sense that there wasn't much to be done about it because it wasn't actually 355 00:27:49,608 --> 00:27:51,288 a fundamental rule of the network. 356 00:27:51,468 --> 00:27:55,988 It was just a standard in exactly the same way that Knotts could go the opposite direction. 357 00:27:56,788 --> 00:28:01,448 Knotts also changed it in the client and allowed every user to change it. 358 00:28:01,448 --> 00:28:10,988 So it was never going to be something that you could have total consensus on or you had a hard and fast rule on unless you change the consensus rules. 359 00:28:11,388 --> 00:28:22,588 Well, changing the consensus rules is a thousand times harder than changing a policy, which is exactly which both core and knots proves to us throughout all of this stuff. 360 00:28:23,048 --> 00:28:28,668 And the problem, the thing that might be existential is block templates. 361 00:28:28,668 --> 00:28:32,948 and everybody on the BIP-110 side is now saying that, 362 00:28:33,428 --> 00:28:36,088 oh, a few mining pools control everything 363 00:28:36,088 --> 00:28:38,328 and that's the only reason BIP-110 lost. 364 00:28:38,428 --> 00:28:41,628 It's like, well, that's why blockchain plates, you know? 365 00:28:41,628 --> 00:28:45,208 We all agreed and talked about that being the problem, 366 00:28:45,628 --> 00:28:47,968 but I feel like the idea of whether or not 367 00:28:47,968 --> 00:28:49,928 the opportune should be one size or not 368 00:28:49,928 --> 00:28:53,508 and really the control over the direction 369 00:28:53,508 --> 00:28:55,648 of those quote-unquote reference client 370 00:28:55,648 --> 00:29:02,468 ends up being put at the top of the hierarchy over we need to decentralize block templates. 371 00:29:02,468 --> 00:29:08,208 And I always put those in reverse, is that if you decentralize block templates, 372 00:29:08,428 --> 00:29:14,008 you are changing the discussion over who has control and of whether this is actually 373 00:29:14,008 --> 00:29:21,468 decentralized decision making and whether five mining pools can fundamentally enforce or reject 374 00:29:21,468 --> 00:29:29,948 something on the network. But it's sad. Like I don't, I don't, like I said, I never, I was never 375 00:29:29,948 --> 00:29:33,588 super against BIP 110, but I was also never super for it because I just did not think it was the 376 00:29:33,588 --> 00:29:39,808 path to actually solving the problem, which was minor decentralization. And that was the big 377 00:29:39,808 --> 00:29:45,648 problem to me. But I obviously philosophically aligned with a lot of the spam conversation and 378 00:29:45,648 --> 00:29:49,248 still do. I don't, I don't think my opinion on anything has changed. I'm trying to think of 379 00:29:49,248 --> 00:29:53,148 anything that changed because of the failure of BIP-110 to activate. 380 00:29:54,708 --> 00:29:55,388 It would be weird. 381 00:29:55,828 --> 00:30:00,188 I mean, Jason, the author of Datum, still working for Ocean. 382 00:30:00,548 --> 00:30:02,548 Ocean's still in business. 383 00:30:02,908 --> 00:30:09,568 Like, it would be kind of weird if just Luke and Mechanic stepping away from Ocean is what 384 00:30:09,568 --> 00:30:16,648 killed this minor template decentralization thing that you mentioned about what was growing. 385 00:30:16,648 --> 00:30:18,228 Ocean fully, and I hope it does. 386 00:30:18,428 --> 00:30:18,528 Yeah. 387 00:30:18,528 --> 00:30:20,808 I mean, it should still grow, right? 388

00:30:21,008 --> 00:30:21,108 Yeah. 389 00:30:21,608 --> 00:30:21,868 Yeah. 390 00:30:21,948 --> 00:30:31,148 So, I mean, if there was momentum growing there for that kind of block template decentralization, I don't think BIP 110 should have done anything to stop that. 391 00:30:31,368 --> 00:30:47,768 Well, for everybody who goes on the fork, they may very well have been a huge portion of the miners and plebs or whatever that were making block templates and who went to it because they were most concerned about that problem in the context of spam. 392 00:30:47,768 --> 00:30:55,388 And I think it also taints the brand, like the idea of what that pool is for. 393 00:30:56,168 --> 00:31:04,108 I think if you ask most just a random person who's been in all of this debate and you said, 394 00:31:04,108 --> 00:31:07,448 why will you or won't you mine at Ocean? 395 00:31:07,828 --> 00:31:25,824 The question or the answer will be 30 about block templates and minor decentralization and 70 about spam and bit one 10 And I think that should be I wanted that to be the opposite Um and I was always 396 00:31:25,824 --> 00:31:32,684 annoyed by the, the total lack of adoption and caring. And I'm shocked how few people 397 00:31:32,684 --> 00:31:41,084 care about stratum v2 and building block templates uh because it's got to be a pool man 398 00:31:41,084 --> 00:31:46,924 i know it has to be a pool it has to be a pool it has to be a pool um and it has to be a pool 399 00:31:46,924 --> 00:31:52,144 that keeps growing if ocean had gotten to seven percent of the hash power i think it would be a 400 00:31:52,144 --> 00:31:57,484 game changer i think there would be a threshold reached where it was made meaningful difference 401 00:31:57,484 --> 00:32:02,464 to the profitability and the reliability of payouts 402 00:32:02,464 --> 00:32:05,724 and the way Ocean was doing payouts 403 00:32:05,724 --> 00:32:08,804 for where you literally paid for all the luck 404 00:32:08,804 --> 00:32:12,784 and you got all the luck rather than FPPS, 405 00:32:13,844 --> 00:32:15,944 whatever the acronym is, 406 00:32:16,324 --> 00:32:19,384 if it had reached a certain threshold of size, 407 00:32:19,904 --> 00:32:23,344 you could have reached a point where the momentum ran away 408 00:32:23,344 --> 00:32:26,904 and Ocean became one of the dominant pools. 409 00:32:27,484 --> 00:32:40,284 And I think it was always about trying to get one of those pools to become the dominant or trying to force the hand of a dominant pool to implement block templates and getting those miners to care about. 410 00:32:40,284 --> 00:32:43,604 But I think that's the harder route, right? 411 00:32:43,704 --> 00:32:59,124 It's somebody who's already making money and already doing FPPS and trying to split their margin and taking that 10% off the top to get them to change the system for the benefit of Bitcoin when it probably affects their bottom line. 412 00:32:59,444 --> 00:33:00,744 And they're already big. 413

00:33:00,904 --> 00:33:05,844 They already have the probability of the next block that everybody wants to go because they're the big pool. 414 00:33:06,264 --> 00:33:08,164 I think that's an insanely hard battle. 415 00:33:08,164 --> 00:33:29,784 But getting a small one, they can get a few big miners who want to have higher payouts and want to build their own block templates and start pooling the resistance, so to speak, against this centralizing of the mining pools and this dismissal of, well, whatever, everybody can just switch mining pools if something terrible happens. 416 00:33:29,784 --> 00:33:34,584 is like well well how about we just stop the the thing that would cause the terrible thing from 417 00:33:34,584 --> 00:33:41,884 happening like why don't we just it's sure we can call the fire department if the house burns down 418 00:33:41,884 --> 00:33:48,524 but holy shit why would you build something out of like paper soaked in gasoline 419 00:33:48,524 --> 00:33:54,484 stop lighting stop lighting candles underneath the place we chilled with the candles right like 420 00:33:54,484 --> 00:34:03,204 Like, it just, like, you put in a fire alarm, put in a, get a fire extinguisher sitting nearby, like, prevent the need for the fucking fire truck to be there. 421 00:34:04,164 --> 00:34:09,964 And that's what I feel like is happening, is we've dismissed it because we haven't paid any great price for it. 422 00:34:10,084 --> 00:34:14,324 And the people who did care, I feel like, just took a big hit. 423 00:34:14,844 --> 00:34:20,824 And the concern about it as an idea just took a big hit because it got roped into dick butts. 424 00:34:20,824 --> 00:34:25,704 and whatever proposed solution was for that, supposedly. 425 00:34:27,724 --> 00:34:30,344 I'm not sure that I follow that logic completely. 426 00:34:30,644 --> 00:34:38,864 It sounds like what you're saying is the momentum for the datum 427 00:34:38,864 --> 00:34:45,524 and the ocean decentralized block template construction thing was growing. 428 00:34:45,524 --> 00:34:55,644 I think it grew specifically because of the issue the the whole github debacle and the dismissal of 429 00:34:55,644 --> 00:35:03,464 those about the spam issue and yeah and that made it that made people realize I think how important 430 00:35:03,464 --> 00:35:07,984 it was to have a separate client and to be building your own block templates and I think 431 00:35:07,984 --> 00:35:14,804 that was one of those points of like oh here is a point of danger here is a point of contentiousness 432 00:35:14,804 --> 00:35:19,224 where if we have this other thing, this would benefit us. 433 00:35:19,424 --> 00:35:22,444 This would actually help give us voice or influence 434 00:35:22,444 --> 00:35:23,344 in the network itself. 435 00:35:24,844 --> 00:35:26,364 But sorry, sorry, I interrupted. 436 00:35:26,824 --> 00:35:27,284 Keep going. 437 00:35:28,744 --> 00:35:30,424 Well, I was just going to say like, 438 00:35:30,544 --> 00:35:35,864 if that thing was growing, then it should still be growing 439 00:35:35,864 --> 00:35:40,224 is what I'm saying is like, it sounds like you're saying 440 00:35:40,224 --> 00:35:43,784 that the BIP 110 thing ended that. 441 00:35:43,784 --> 00:35:52,364 and it's it's like uh why would that have ended it if there was like there was real momentum there 442 00:35:52,364 --> 00:35:58,084 you know yeah probably it hasn't it hasn't ended anything we we just had a i think it feels like a 443 00:35:58,084 --> 00:36:06,544 setback for sure um and i think it split it certainly split attention away from i think it 444 00:36:06,544 --> 00:36:12,504 Split a lot of the huge part of the community that was talking about that. 445 00:36:12,804 --> 00:36:40,880 And it equated the mining decentralization problem with the proposed a specific soft fork plan to fix the spam problem Or maybe a better way to put it is to fix the the core control of the conversation around the spam problem Uh BIP 110 it roped that into the community Like if there a split 446 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:48,960 off of 4% of the community that really cares about a thing, and then that part of the community also 447 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,180 like just gets tied to the idea that BIP 110, 448 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,000 a fork that kicks them off the network, 449 00:36:56,180 --> 00:36:59,920 just splits the network entirely 450 00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:01,980 into two different communities, 451 00:37:02,300 --> 00:37:04,540 is part of that solution. 452 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:06,300 It ties those two things together. 453 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,200 And in the minds of the other 96%, 454 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,360 the mining pool that is doing minor decentralization. 455 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,400 I think that's kind of simplifying people, man. 456 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,160 I feel like they're kind of painting people as idiots. 457 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:22,940 how am i how am i painting people to idiots i think because everyone's their own person like 458 00:37:22,940 --> 00:37:28,020 yeah sure everybody's their own person but who doesn't think ocean is about ocean ocean mining 459 00:37:28,020 --> 00:37:33,540 was about bip 110 right now does the majority of people think that or do a majority of people think 460 00:37:33,540 --> 00:37:40,960 that ocean was about mining decentralization or block template decentralization we probably have 461 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,360 our own like little, what do you call it? 462 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,600 Our own little circles, our own little bubbles here. 463 00:37:48,740 --> 00:37:52,420 But I would think the majority of people thought Ocean was about mining 464 00:37:52,420 --> 00:37:56,680 decentralization. And that BIP-110 was this 465 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,900 two little people and the Ocean company that wanted to do 466 00:38:00,900 --> 00:38:04,380 this BIP-110 thing, but the Ocean company like didn't really agree

with them. 467 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,980 I would think that'd be the majority view. But we all have our own 468 00:38:08,980 --> 00:38:13,540 circles when it comes to that is what i'm saying everybody everybody has their own bubble but 469 00:38:13,540 --> 00:38:22,560 from from what i saw like mechanic and luke were equivalent to bit 110 and anybody who was 470 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:29,360 following bit 110 were following mechanical like everything gets anthropomorphized and put into a 471 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:36,160 box like like that is that's the nature of the human shortcut of how we label and categorize 472 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,780 things. And I think it's just kind of a universal thing, whether we want to say that's human 473 00:38:39,780 --> 00:38:45,020 stupidity. I don't think it is. I think it's a filter problem, right? Is holding nuance about 474 00:38:45,020 --> 00:38:49,380 every single thing and every opinion and every company or person is just insanely difficult. 475 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:54,220 We have, we have dumb bars number to deal with and that, you know, max is at a hundred. 476 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:56,760 A hundred, 150, 200. 477 00:38:57,380 --> 00:39:05,980 Whatever. Whatever. But Ocean was the BIP 110 mining pool and Ocean was Luke and 478 00:39:05,980 --> 00:39:14,320 mechanic i think them stepping down from ocean is actually was the right move or them separating 479 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:22,860 themselves and i i suspect they both did it for the good for the benefit of ocean of ocean um and 480 00:39:22,860 --> 00:39:27,860 so that the mining pool continued to do what it what it was doing that was really really valuable 481 00:39:27,860 --> 00:39:28,920 and really, really good. 482 00:39:29,220 --> 00:39:33,720 Because hands down, objectively looking at the blocks, 483 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,260 Ocean is far and away the number one thing 484 00:39:38,260 --> 00:39:43,120 that has ever existed on Bitcoin for the last 15 years 485 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,340 for decentralizing the creation of blocks 486 00:39:46,340 --> 00:39:48,520 into the miners as part of that pool. 487 00:39:49,220 --> 00:39:50,760 And it's simply a count. 488 00:39:50,980 --> 00:39:52,860 All you have to do is go look at the addresses 489 00:39:52,860 --> 00:39:55,260 and how the Coinbase are built. 490 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,500 And you have proof that that is the case. 491 00:39:57,860 --> 00:40:00,220 And that was the most valuable thing. 492 00:40:00,420 --> 00:40:04,720 This is why I made a video that specifically started with, 493 00:40:04,820 --> 00:40:06,940 I don't care what your opinion about BIP-110 is, 494 00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:09,360 Ocean is the most, Ocean, Datum, and Stratum v2 495 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,380 are the three most important projects in Bitcoin right now. 496 00:40:13,380 --> 00:40:18,380 And I do feel like this threw a wrench into the gears 497 00:40:18,380 --> 00:40:21,740 that were making

positive gains in that direction, 498 00:40:21,740 --> 00:40:25,240 no matter how small or whether or not it was because of some 499 00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:34,360 secondary argument about spam, whatever it was. Because I certainly, certainly everything that 500 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:39,380 happened around spam and the debate and the whole thing exploded the amount of people who were 501 00:40:39,380 --> 00:40:44,140 running N.A.T.S. and switched to N.A.T.S. In fact, I switched to N.A.T.S. when that happened because I was like, seriously? 502 00:40:44,140 --> 00:40:50,940 like the blindness of the few maintainers 503 00:40:50,940 --> 00:40:55,500 from recognizing how much disrespect they gave 504 00:40:55,500 --> 00:40:57,100 to an enormous amount of the community. 505 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,200 And I do totally recognize the difference 506 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,880 between everybody who contributes to core 507 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,860 and the entire group and what might be a few maintainers 508 00:41:06,860 --> 00:41:10,340 and a small amount that have more control over the GitHub. 509 00:41:10,340 --> 00:41:13,560 And partially, I think the biggest problem here 510 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,380 is just GitHub, right? 511 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,600 Is GitHub is always necessarily centralized. 512 00:41:18,380 --> 00:41:19,980 And GitHub is not Bitcoin. 513 00:41:20,660 --> 00:41:22,640 And Notts, I think, was proving that. 514 00:41:23,220 --> 00:41:25,480 And Ocean, I was hoping, was proving that. 515 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:27,800 And I think they still are. 516 00:41:28,180 --> 00:41:29,940 I'm not saying it's all done 517 00:41:29,940 --> 00:41:31,760 and we're throwing in the towel or anything. 518 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,780 I just was very hopeful about the situation. 519 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,960 And now I'm a little bit murred or... 520 00:41:39,997 --> 00:41:46,977 dampened on the timeline for success there, I think is maybe the way to put it. 521 00:41:47,897 --> 00:41:53,117 I imagine like somebody at ocean. I'm surprised I haven't thought through this before now, 522 00:41:53,117 --> 00:41:59,177 but I guess it's good that I'm doing it now. So ocean, I think wants to continue. I mean, like, 523 00:41:59,177 --> 00:42:03,077 I believe they are. 524 00:42:04,817 --> 00:42:13,837 And I guess someone is going to, someone in Ocean is probably going to have to, I don't 525 00:42:13,837 --> 00:42:13,977 know. 526 00:42:14,057 --> 00:42:19,537 I was just trying to think of like how Datum, can you use Datum on Core right now? 527 00:42:22,397 --> 00:42:23,397 Does anybody know? 528 00:42:25,397 --> 00:42:27,657 No, I don't think so. 529 00:42:29,177 --> 00:42:29,937 Wait. 530 00:42:31,137 --> 00:42:34,937 So like somebody, if not, I don't know. 531 00:42:35,417 --> 00:42:36,477 That's a good question. 532 00:42:38,637 --> 00:42:39,097 Yeah. 533 00:42:39,137 --> 00:42:40,637 How come I've never thought about this before? 534 00:42:44,917 --> 00:42:51,457 But yeah, so like, you know, if there's momentum there, like it, you know, I hope it continues to grow. 535 00:42:51,577 --> 00:42:54,377 I think it will probably continue to grow. 536 00:42:54,377 --> 00:43:00,517 um but you know luke just doesn't want to work be be the guy on that anymore you know i mean i mean 537 00:43:00,517 --> 00:43:05,577 you don't force anybody into anything and yeah exactly i mean the thing i'm saying about like 538 00:43:05,577 --> 00:43:10,397 everyone's their own man is like if there's a dude that's been running a company for a long time 539 00:43:10,397 --> 00:43:16,697 and he all of a sudden thinks what he's doing isn't helping anymore and he wants to like spend 540 00:43:16,697 --> 00:43:21,997 more time with his family or start another company yeah like sure you can you can you can be butthurt 541 00:43:21,997 --> 00:43:27,717 all you want about how you thought him staying would be better for the company, but he's his 542 00:43:27,717 --> 00:43:32,197 own man and he didn't think he was making the company better and he wants to make another 543 00:43:32,197 --> 00:43:32,677 company. 544 00:43:33,377 --> 00:43:37,857 And so like, what's, what good is it just sitting there crying about how you wish he'd 545 00:43:37,857 --> 00:43:38,157 stay? 546 00:43:38,237 --> 00:43:44,017 I mean, like, are you really doing any great service to the world by like, like getting 547 00:43:44,017 --> 00:43:49,077 him to come back and stay when that's just what you want and you might not even be right. 548 00:43:49,077 --> 00:44:15,397 I mean, if a lot of these people left the ocean community and are not building towards that datum decentralized template future anymore, if like half of those people forked off, half of those people forked off is because they thought that was so important that they just couldn't resist the idea of starting a new fork with that as the primary centerpiece. 549 00:44:15,397 --> 00:44:22,697 because they didn't know if, okay, maybe, I mean, your view is that like maybe over some 10-year 550 00:44:22,697 --> 00:44:27,577 period, this would have slowly gotten better. Either they didn't want to wait that 10 years, 551 00:44:27,577 --> 00:44:32,237 or they weren't even sure that you were right, that it was on a path like that. 552 00:44:32,937 --> 00:44:37,797 And it was so important to them that they wanted to see this beautiful experiment start over. 553 00:44:38,757 --> 00:44:44,437 You know, so it's like, I just, I don't see, think you can blame a movement like that for 554 00:44:44,437 --> 00:44:48,777 doing that because everyone's making their own individual actions here and like that's the beauty 555 00:44:48,777 --> 00:44:57,557 of it right i mean so real quick ai says yes a datum datum gateway can use bitcoin core instead 556 00:44:57,557 --> 00:45:02,757 of knots because it gets blocked templates from the node through bitcoin's get plot get block 557 00:45:02,757 -->

00:45:09,217 template rp interface okay it says it just says that the important distinction is template control 558 00:45:09,217 --> 00:45:12,237 Bitcoin core has less controls than not. 559 00:45:12,237 --> 00:45:16,657 My point is that I simply think it was the wrong strategy. 560 00:45:18,097 --> 00:45:24,257 And I'm not trying to, for a better blockchain plate, for decentralization of Bitcoin mining, 561 00:45:24,577 --> 00:45:34,257 and for the goal that I think I share with a lot of Bit110 people of making Bitcoin better 562 00:45:34,257 --> 00:45:40,637 and more decentralized and more resilient against potentially centralized actors, 563 00:45:40,757 --> 00:45:43,057 whether they be miners or developers or whatnot. 564 00:45:44,917 --> 00:45:48,577 But, you know, Luke can do whatever he wants, all of them. 565 00:45:48,777 --> 00:45:49,737 Well, they have that same goal. 566 00:45:49,817 --> 00:45:52,057 They have a difference of opinion of what Bitcoin is. 567 00:45:52,277 --> 00:45:52,697 Of course. 568 00:45:52,857 --> 00:45:53,857 I mean, they have the same goal. 569 00:45:54,057 --> 00:45:58,417 It's just that they don't agree that your definition of Bitcoin is that chain. 570 00:45:58,857 --> 00:46:00,477 In that same way, though, I don't agree with them. 571 00:46:00,477 --> 00:46:05,277 And I'm simply sharing what I thought was the better course of action. 572 00:46:06,617 --> 00:46:08,537 And obviously they can do. 573 00:46:08,637 --> 00:46:13,977 I'm not saying anybody has to like, oh, God, stop your BIP 110 thing. 574 00:46:14,037 --> 00:46:14,557 It's like, sure. 575 00:46:14,617 --> 00:46:16,957 At the end of the day, everybody's going to do what they're going to do. 576 00:46:18,117 --> 00:46:22,617 And all I can do is share my opinion or my thoughts about it. 577 00:46:22,617 --> 00:46:24,357 For what they think is the goal, yeah. 578 00:46:24,457 --> 00:46:25,537 Sure, sure. 579 00:46:25,537 --> 00:46:28,237 But I think the analogy of the guy leaving the company is good. 580 00:46:28,237 --> 00:46:34,397 I mean, like you're saying, I wish the guy would have stayed with the company because it would have been better for the company. 581 00:46:34,637 --> 00:46:41,197 But the guy thinks him being there wasn't going to be good for the company, and he wanted to start a new company. 582 00:46:41,677 --> 00:46:43,897 So it's just kind of crying, right? 583 00:46:44,557 --> 00:46:58,1000 I mean are you really the one to say that your position is correct And the guy who ran the company and decided to leave his position was incorrect No it just my position for the decentralization of Bitcoin 584 00:46:59,320 --> 00:46:59,500 No, 585 00:46:59,520 --> 00:46:59,940 it's just my, 586 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:00,980 it's just my position. 587 00:47:02,620 --> 00:47:03,140 Yeah. 588 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:04,400 So, 589 00:47:04,460 --> 00:47:04,640 I mean, 590 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:05,380 I think there's a, 591 00:47:05,500 --> 00:47:08,520 there's a reasonable chance that like, 592 00:47:08,580 --> 00:47:08,660 I mean, 593 00:47:08,660 --> 00:47:10,440 all this is about disagreement plays out. 594 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:11,980 Like I'm just, 595 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:12,360 I mean, 596 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:13,240 I'm just saying that I, 597 00:47:13,260 --> 00:47:14,020 I disagree. 598 00:47:14,140 --> 00:47:15,180 And I, 599 00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:15,860 I think, 600 00:47:15,860 --> 00:47:21,780 I think it would have been better had they taken a different course of action 601 00:47:21,780 --> 00:47:29,100 or held that hand or folded for three turns until they had a full house. 602 00:47:30,580 --> 00:47:35,720 I'm just saying that I think the strategy could have been better. 603 00:47:36,820 --> 00:47:39,120 For instance, I think you could have... 604 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,100 One of the things that, just going back as a historical example, 605 00:47:43,100 --> 00:47:49,940 as big blockers for the user-activated soft fork is people talk about all the time how, 606 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,840 oh, or big blockers talk about all the time. 607 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,120 I was like, oh, they controlled it and core controls it, whatever. 608 00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,940 And they tried to talk about how it was block stream conspiracy and all this stuff. 609 00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:01,860 It's like, well, you guys could have prevented SegWit 610 00:48:01,860 --> 00:48:03,660 if you'd understood the dynamic of all of this stuff. 611 00:48:03,900 --> 00:48:05,300 Because SegWit was a soft fork. 612 00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:11,340 The reason the user-activated soft fork won was because we had two main paths. 613 00:48:11,340 --> 00:48:13,840 is a SegWit soft fork, which was a minor change. 614 00:48:14,460 --> 00:48:17,840 And basically the overwhelming majority 615 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:19,060 of everything that was going on 616 00:48:19,060 --> 00:48:21,760 was finally coalescing around the idea 617 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:23,160 that SegWit was going to happen. 618 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,520 Proof was that the hard fork 619 00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,860 that then got implemented or enforced 620 00:48:28,860 --> 00:48:31,560 was SegWit plus the hard fork. 621 00:48:31,860 --> 00:48:34,500 They said, okay, fine, we'll give you SegWit, 622 00:48:34,580 --> 00:48:35,980 but you're going to get it with a hard fork. 623 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:37,940 So the user activated soft fork, 624 00:48:38,100 --> 00:48:39,260 put up a defense and said, 625 00:48:39,380 --> 00:48:41,080 no, we're not going to take your hard fork. 626 00:48:41,340 --> 00:48:43,500 We're going to go with the less contentious route. 627 00:48:43,500 --> 00:48:55,520 We're going to go with the less destruction or mess, disruption to the consensus of the chain, the backwards compatible version. 628 00:48:56,100 --> 00:49:09,1000 And you can either join us or not, which means that I genuinely think the

big blockers were absolutely large enough as a community and as a market power that they could have said, well, we're going to user activated, user rejected soft fork your SegWit. 629 00:49:09,1000 --> 00:49:15,100 and nobody's going to get shit. And if they had understood how nodes worked and how the market 630 00:49:15,100 --> 00:49:18,1000 worked, they could have prevented Segwit from ever getting implemented. And we would have all 631 00:49:18,1000 --> 00:49:25,160 had to fall back to nothing happens at all, despite years and years of fight. But they didn't get it. 632 00:49:25,580 --> 00:49:30,540 They were saying nodes don't matter. And all of this doesn't matter. And all is all we have to 633 00:49:30,540 --> 00:49:33,960 have is 80% of the mining power. And we can force anything on the network. And we're going to get 634 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:41,220 our hard fork and you can suck it. And so they overplayed their hand and the quiet defensive or 635 00:49:41,220 --> 00:49:51,100 the less attacking, the defensive rather than the offensive strategy was the one that ended up being 636 00:49:51,100 --> 00:49:55,740 the dominant. And I think kind of the same perspective happened here is the non-change 637 00:49:55,740 --> 00:50:01,160 had simply more momentum, had more inertia than the change. 638 00:50:01,900 --> 00:50:05,700 And there is a path where I think maybe that could have balanced 639 00:50:05,700 --> 00:50:11,380 in the opposite direction, but I think it's on a later hand in the poker game. 640 00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:15,840 But again, that's just my, I'm not going to tell Luke what to do. 641 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:16,940 I'm not going to tell Mechanic what to do. 642 00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:22,400 I messaged him a couple of times and went back and forth on Twitter, 643 00:50:22,580 --> 00:50:23,080 just in general. 644 00:50:23,100 --> 00:50:23,800 It's not just your opinion. 645 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,040 is that you might not be right about what's best for block template. 646 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:27,680 Of course. 647 00:50:28,060 --> 00:50:28,500 Decentralization. 648 00:50:28,660 --> 00:50:29,080 Of course. 649 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:29,980 Of course. 650 00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:33,360 From my perspective, it looks like I was right. 651 00:50:33,620 --> 00:50:37,780 But I, but like I said, it's all confirmation bias, right? 652 00:50:38,140 --> 00:50:43,680 Is I'm, I'm equating it to BIP 110 because BIP 110 didn't get activated. 653 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,660 I'm saying, oh, well, maybe my perspective was right about it, 654 00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:47,600 but that doesn't mean anything. 655 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,400 Just like BIP 110 not activating doesn't mean Bitcoin centralized. 656 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:55,260 it also doesn't mean that i'm right about my reason for thinking bit could have been totally 657 00:50:55,260 --> 00:50:58,760 different reason for bit.10 failing than the one that i think there's probably a

million other 658 00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:04,720 reasons why it could have been that you know the dominant reason uh i'm just saying that's what i 659 00:51:04,720 --> 00:51:11,920 think and you know take that as you will you know i've been wrong god knows how many times in bitcoin 660 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:16,920 who's like what the hell does any of us know really i've been wrong so many times dude seriously 661 00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:21,400 Do either of you know if blocks are still coming in on the BIP-110 fork? 662 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,860 Like, is there still a legitimate fork? 663 00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:27,420 Is it like six or seven hours? 664 00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:28,360 Like, what's the? 665 00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:29,540 I think it's one a day. 666 00:51:31,060 --> 00:51:31,960 One a day? 667 00:51:32,140 --> 00:51:33,440 I don't understand that. 668 00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:34,920 Am I wrong about that? 669 00:51:35,020 --> 00:51:37,700 I'm sorry for, like, what's that? 670 00:51:38,300 --> 00:51:42,780 I'm sorry for the BIP-110 supporters that might not want to hear me say this, 671 00:51:42,780 --> 00:51:48,600 but like I don't understand why people are still mining on the BIP 110 fork chain. 672 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:50,740 Especially when the algorithm is going to change. 673 00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:51,820 Yeah. 674 00:51:51,820 --> 00:52:11,042 I just don understand what the motivation is because like if you really want this BIP 110 new coin you know new fork coin or whatever And let just say there two ways that it can happen 675 00:52:11,942 --> 00:52:18,902 One way is, you know, the Luke Blake fork that's going to happen in like early September. 676 00:52:18,902 --> 00:52:21,182 That's not SHA-256. 677 00:52:21,502 --> 00:52:28,942 The other kind of small thing that keeps popping up is like somebody is like, oh, I'm going to write the client that keeps it SHA-256. 678 00:52:28,942 --> 00:52:31,202 it just does an emergency difficulty adjustment. 679 00:52:32,122 --> 00:52:35,502 I guess that's still a possibility that that might happen. 680 00:52:36,642 --> 00:52:41,242 But either way, both of those are hard forks. 681 00:52:41,762 --> 00:52:49,402 If any of those are successful, eventually they'll be listed on an exchange, 682 00:52:49,402 --> 00:52:57,062 which will immediately get nuked to zero from trading, in my opinion. 683 00:52:57,062 --> 00:53:12,942 So right now you are spending in electricity terms, $79, $80,000 for every Bitcoin you mine there. 684 00:53:13,322 --> 00:53:26,882 Like this is the most expensive way to produce more of a coin that pretty much has no option, but getting nuked to zero if it is ever successful. 685 00:53:27,062 --> 00:53:33,382 on the exchange well but if you don't mine it then there's no chain so there is no split there 686 00:53:33,382 --> 00:53:40,342 are no coins so no it no no no it the splits happening whether you keep mining it or not 687 00:53:40,342 --> 00:53:47,002 yeah i know but doesn't the mining adjustment but the adjustment doesn't happen until a number 688 00:53:47,002 --> 00:53:53,142 of blocks right like doesn't is it time or is it block no one's gonna wait so so the the time it's 689 00:53:53,142 --> 00:53:54,582 going to take to get to the 690 00:53:54,582 --> 00:53:57,102 difficulty adjustment if you don't do anything 691 00:53:57,102 --> 00:53:58,122 is like two years. 692 00:53:59,562 --> 00:53:59,722 Yeah. 693 00:54:00,722 --> 00:54:03,442 So you just have to hard fork with a new 694 00:54:03,442 --> 00:54:05,002 set or 695 00:54:05,002 --> 00:54:07,322 difficulty. You have to hard fork emergency 696 00:54:07,322 --> 00:54:09,262 difficulty adjustment or 697 00:54:09,262 --> 00:54:10,962 hard fork which the 698 00:54:10,962 --> 00:54:12,562 Blake 2B 699 00:54:12,562 --> 00:54:15,082 the major one that Luke 700 00:54:15,082 --> 00:54:16,122 and Mechanic are behind. 701 00:54:17,362 --> 00:54:19,163 That's going to be an emergency 702 00:54:19,163 --> 00:54:20,942 difficulty adjustment plus 703 00:54:20,942 --> 00:54:22,302 a proof of fork change. 704 00:54:23,142 --> 00:54:28,902 to a new algorithm but but you don't have to have it like it activates on a block height like you can 705 00:54:28,902 --> 00:54:37,502 just say that the next block comes in allows this right exactly i mean like um and i don't even know 706 00:54:37,502 --> 00:54:42,862 if you need to wait till the next block comes in like if it blocks like completely stop i'm just 707 00:54:42,862 --> 00:54:47,642 meaning that the next one that comes in could be the new rules like which means you could just start 708 00:54:47,642 --> 00:54:48,342 Right, exactly. 709 00:54:49,002 --> 00:54:49,222 Yeah. 710 00:54:49,442 --> 00:54:51,042 I mean, this is kind of a dumb point. 711 00:54:51,163 --> 00:54:56,283 I just, I'm still searching for a reason out there that people are still mining this chain. 712 00:54:56,382 --> 00:54:57,962 I just, I don't understand. 713 00:54:57,962 --> 00:55:02,802 I don't know whether to feel bad for them because they don't really understand the situation. 714 00:55:03,382 --> 00:55:07,622 Or if there's something I don't understand, a reason to keep mining it. 715 00:55:08,262 --> 00:55:15,202 Man, part of me, that's why I tried not to fight about this a whole lot. 716 00:55:15,542 --> 00:55:17,122 Because there were so many people. 717 00:55:17,642 --> 00:55:22,882 philosophical reasons that I agreed on the conversation about spam in general 718 00:55:22,882 --> 00:55:26,462 but I was totally willing to admit that I didn't understand what the hell was 719 00:55:26,462 --> 00:55:30,702 going on with that and that I wasn't seeing I was just missing a lot of 720 00:55:30,702 --> 00:55:36,942 support because of my social circles or something like that but in in hindsight 721 00:55:36,942 --> 00:55:46,462 there were so many things that the UASF in 2017 had that BIP 110 didn't did not 722 00:55:46,462 --> 00:55:49,342 And

yeah, it was totally different. 723 00:55:49,342 --> 00:55:54,742 I think mechanic making that comparison so often was a little bit, 724 00:55:54,742 --> 00:55:58,262 not intentionally misleading, but I mean, like you said, I mean, the, 725 00:55:59,022 --> 00:56:02,702 because of the SegWit thing and pretty much both sides agreed that they wanted 726 00:56:02,702 --> 00:56:04,142 SegWit that, 727 00:56:04,282 --> 00:56:08,942 that totally changed the dynamic from what the situation was with BIP 110. 728 00:56:09,202 --> 00:56:10,662 Like I totally agree with you on that. 729 00:56:11,042 --> 00:56:11,142 Yeah. 730 00:56:11,142 --> 00:56:15,722 and it's also important too 731 00:56:15,722 --> 00:56:17,442 because I see a lot of people 732 00:56:17,442 --> 00:56:19,762 on that side saying that 733 00:56:19,762 --> 00:56:21,902 because the nodes 734 00:56:21,902 --> 00:56:25,402 because the grassroots movement 735 00:56:25,402 --> 00:56:27,043 I mean I 100% believe 736 00:56:27,043 --> 00:56:28,462 Bit.110 was a grassroots movement 737 00:56:28,462 --> 00:56:31,882 that it was a defense 738 00:56:31,882 --> 00:56:36,062 against undesirable direction in Bitcoin 739 00:56:36,062 --> 00:56:37,982 I don't think that necessarily means 740 00:56:37,982 --> 00:56:38,942 it's always going to win 741 00:56:38,942 --> 00:57:03,222 It clearly has to have a certain amount of support for any consensus rules to actually be enforced. You're talking about changing the rules of the entire network. But I think people mistook the simple running of nodes as somehow the commitment or the teeth behind market power. 742 00:57:03,222 --> 00:57:08,322 when the nodes are the way to defend the teeth of market power they aren't the 743 00:57:08,322 --> 00:57:25,825 teeth themselves you know like the node if you running a node as you know like if nunchuck and then nunchuck if you use the wallet without connecting it to your own node that wallet connects to like Nunchuck public node one of their public 744 00:57:25,825 --> 00:57:35,665 nodes. If every of the nine most popular wallets change their node to say, you're going to 745 00:57:35,665 --> 00:57:41,225 see, because of overwhelming support from our users, we're going to show these rules, 746 00:57:41,225 --> 00:57:47,705 this the rules the chain with these rules will be the ones that you see that uh three significant 747 00:57:47,705 --> 00:57:52,425 exchanges not the three biggest exchanges but three very significant exchanges said we have so 748 00:57:52,425 --> 00:57:59,545 much support from the users that we are going to recognize this as the one that is bitcoin if uh 749 00:57:59,545 --> 00:58:06,665 60 of the lightning nodes said our channels will only stay active on this chain like the 750 00:58:06,665 --> 00:58:13,225 infrastructure, the people who are producing used nodes to defend their market position, 751 00:58:13,745 --> 00:58:19,245 that would have been a wildly different story as to what the outcome was. Because the disruption, 752 00:58:19,445 --> 00:58:28,165 the genuine monetary disruption would have been staggering. The monetary disruption of 20% of 753 00:58:28,165 --> 00:58:34,465 knots nodes, even if it was all of them, which it wasn't, but if 20% of the knots nodes fork off 754 00:58:34,465 --> 00:58:41,245 in no particular, I mean, clearly there was no monetary cost. Clearly the miners, if a miner did 755 00:58:41,245 --> 00:58:45,585 not know what was happening, they would never have known what was happening. You know, like they 756 00:58:45,585 --> 00:58:51,265 didn't take a 30% hit to the price of Bitcoin because, because, you know, suddenly their 757 00:58:51,265 --> 00:58:56,785 lightning transaction didn't go through because the wallet they were using isn't on the same chain 758 00:58:56,785 --> 00:59:01,605 that the exchange they were trying to withdraw from is on a different, like there was no economic 759 00:59:01,605 --> 00:59:12,105 consequence of any kind to speak of what happened with BIP 110. And all of the major points of attack 760 00:59:12,105 --> 00:59:18,105 mostly just did nothing. They were just not participatory, which means there simply wasn't 761 00:59:18,105 --> 00:59:24,565 enough force. It was a minority of the defenders and a minority of the offenders, the nodes and 762 00:59:24,565 --> 00:59:33,325 the minors. And I just think that's simply not enough to alter consensus rules. And what I think 763 00:59:33,325 --> 00:59:42,305 we had with Segwit and the 2017 battle was, I think we had an overwhelming majority of the 764 00:59:42,305 --> 00:59:53,265 defenders rejecting the hard fork actively. And the UASF put themselves in alignment with the 765 00:59:53,265 --> 00:59:58,165 majority of the defenders, despite the fact that the majority of the network extenders, the miners, 766 00:59:58,765 --> 01:00:05,845 were attempting to force a change. And it basically said, you're going to rug us of our new blocks. 767 01:00:06,205 --> 01:00:12,685 We're going to rug you of your exchanges, your wallets, your brand, your everything. We're going 768 01:00:12,685 --> 01:00:19,585 to take it back in the opposite direction. But specifically, that was the strongest force. It 769 01:00:19,585 --> 01:00:24,105 wasn't a minority of those people. It was a majority of those people against a majority of 770 01:00:24,105 --> 01:00:29,865 the minors. And that's what I never saw with BIP 110. But I tell you, the conviction was wild. 771 01:00:30,345 --> 01:00:36,885 And I was totally willing to be like, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Or I don't 772 01:00:36,885 --> 01:00:43,265 see something because, you know, I also don't believe Twitter is I tried to do a Twitter poll 773 01:00:43,265 --> 01:00:45,685 to just try to get a sense of what everybody thought. 774 01:00:46,465 --> 01:00:53,805 And like after like 30 views or something on the poll, 775 01:00:54,065 --> 01:00:55,625 like in just a matter of minutes, 776

01:00:56,685 --> 01:01:01,065 like 300 fake votes came in for no on Bitcoin. 777 01:01:01,225 --> 01:01:02,325 I was like, well, this was useless. 778 01:01:02,865 --> 01:01:05,685 And like, so it was a perfect microcosm of this whole, 779 01:01:05,845 --> 01:01:08,625 like I cannot possibly just say that 780 01:01:08,625 --> 01:01:10,405 because Bitcoin Twitter looks like this, 781 01:01:10,965 --> 01:01:12,945 that this is the actual makeup of support 782 01:01:12,945 --> 01:01:14,925 or rejection of this thing. 783 01:01:15,985 --> 01:01:19,905 And so my stance was basically that I think 784 01:01:19,905 --> 01:01:21,565 whether or not Bitcoin 10 succeeds or not 785 01:01:21,565 --> 01:01:24,005 is going to be the best possible signal we have 786 01:01:24,005 --> 01:01:25,425 as to what level of support it has. 787 01:01:26,285 --> 01:01:27,365 It's just the fork. 788 01:01:28,245 --> 01:01:30,465 Like I think Bitcoin is a better indicator than Twitter, 789 01:01:30,885 --> 01:01:31,945 than a conference, 790 01:01:32,625 --> 01:01:34,525 than a message board, 791 01:01:34,665 --> 01:01:35,245 than Reddit, 792 01:01:35,665 --> 01:01:38,665 than a mail-in newsletter. 793 01:01:38,865 --> 01:01:40,585 I don't know what the hell. 794 01:01:40,705 --> 01:01:41,665 Anything out there, 795 01:01:41,665 --> 01:01:48,225 I think Bitcoin is a better indicator of the power and market significance of a contentious 796 01:01:48,225 --> 01:01:52,045 diversion in its network than probably anything else we have. 797 01:01:53,445 --> 01:02:02,885 Certainly not political party, you know, like, and so I felt like to me, BIP 110s, the resolution 798 01:02:02,885 --> 01:02:07,845 of BIP 110 or the outcome of the BIP 110 fork was simply the indicator to me of how much 799 01:02:07,845 --> 01:02:15,185 actual support it had and why it is where it is right now. 800 01:02:16,485 --> 01:02:22,025 But so what you're saying, though, is that there is actually going to be for sure a hard fork or two. 801 01:02:22,025 --> 01:02:24,125 Like there are maybe multiple people. 802 01:02:24,325 --> 01:02:25,125 There's for sure going to be one. 803 01:02:25,225 --> 01:02:27,205 Well, I mean, all signs point. 804 01:02:27,405 --> 01:02:27,745 I mean, I. 805 01:02:29,485 --> 01:02:29,965 Act. 806 01:02:30,008 --> 01:02:33,188 I know there's like definitely active work every day. 807 01:02:33,308 --> 01:02:35,608 And I don't know if they've released a date yet. 808 01:02:35,608 --> 01:02:37,268 I think it's going to be early September. 809 01:02:38,148 --> 01:02:40,948 But yes, I would bet a large amount of money there. 810 01:02:41,028 --> 01:02:44,448 There would definitely be one fork, hard fork for sure. 811 01:02:46,388 --> 01:02:50,128 And I don't know about the second one. 812 01:02:50,528 --> 01:02:56,948 Well, I was just going to say the unfortunate thing about that is that this also de-anonymizes a bunch of people's coins again. 813 01:02:57,568 --> 01:02:58,608 Like this

is like. 814 01:02:58,608 --> 01:03:00,408 If you do anything with it. 815 01:03:01,568 --> 01:03:02,408 Well, sure. 816 01:03:02,988 --> 01:03:04,408 But I mean like... 817 01:03:04,408 --> 01:03:06,248 Like I'm not going to dump BIP 110 coins. 818 01:03:07,228 --> 01:03:09,048 Well, and maybe I won't either. 819 01:03:09,068 --> 01:03:10,288 For the sake of privacy, really. 820 01:03:11,068 --> 01:03:11,208 Well. 821 01:03:11,688 --> 01:03:12,168 Right. 822 01:03:12,528 --> 01:03:21,388 But the thing is that there's a monetary incentive now to undo any sort of privacy people have gained through. 823 01:03:21,388 --> 01:03:25,548 I mean, maybe you could sell it through, I don't know, RoboSats or something. 824 01:03:25,548 --> 01:03:27,248 I don't know what the thing is now. 825 01:03:27,248 --> 01:03:40,268 But, you know, it's just, it's kind of unfortunate that the very people who would be or who are pro-privacy and everything else are creating an incentive to undo a bunch of things. 826 01:03:40,368 --> 01:03:41,128 You know, I don't know. 827 01:03:42,128 --> 01:03:43,448 Well, you can spend that the other way, too. 828 01:03:43,808 --> 01:03:55,668 So before the fork, like, there was a massive incentive to get your coins off the exchange because you couldn't have split your coins because Coinbase is. 829 01:03:55,668 --> 01:03:56,428 Oh, on the exchange. 830 01:03:56,628 --> 01:03:56,828 Okay. 831 01:03:56,828 --> 01:04:03,228 well that's fair and that didn't work out at all like i was like yeah well that was another reason 832 01:04:03,228 --> 01:04:08,388 i was for the chain split because i was like yo chain split chain split everybody withdraw your 833 01:04:08,388 --> 01:04:14,048 coins from coinbase chain split chain split let's do this pay attention nobody paid any attention 834 01:04:14,048 --> 01:04:26,308 yeah oh shit but um yeah i guess i i i respect a lot of the monetary maximalists 835 01:04:26,308 --> 01:04:30,308 and a lot of people who... 836 01:04:30,308 --> 01:04:32,228 I am a monetary maximalist. 837 01:04:32,348 --> 01:04:35,448 No, I mean, obviously, yes, me too. 838 01:04:36,108 --> 01:04:38,828 But a lot of that community 839 01:04:38,828 --> 01:04:43,448 and even their conviction to go with us all for it, 840 01:04:44,348 --> 01:04:47,788 despite my disagreement over it being the best path. 841 01:04:48,968 --> 01:04:52,108 But I want the monetary maximalist to stay on it. 842 01:04:52,328 --> 01:04:54,148 Out of pure greed and selfishness, 843 01:04:54,148 --> 01:05:01,708 I want the monetary maximalists to stay on Bitcoin proper or the dominant chain, whatever you want to call it. 844 01:05:02,068 --> 01:05:04,548 A bunch of Bitcoin teners are like, you're not on real Bitcoin, so whatever. 845 01:05:05,268 --> 01:05:18,508 I mean, one thing that I think the core side was right about was that even if BIP 110 did succeed, it still would have been a fight to keep spam away. 846 01:05:18,608 --> 01:05:20,928 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Thousand percent. 847 01:05:20,928 --> 01:05:31,708 so yeah so long as the fees are um the way they are and so like even if you were to get your world 848 01:05:31,708 --> 01:05:40,868 of um kind of mining pool decentralization or whatever i still think it would be hard 849 01:05:40,868 --> 01:05:48,708 to be like a monetary maximalist um and have anything be done about it really yeah another 850 01:05:48,708 --> 01:05:53,108 major reason why I didn't think this was existential because I didn't, I genuinely 851 01:05:53,108 --> 01:06:01,808 didn't think it was totally solvable. I thought the conversation and the, the low risk only net 852 01:06:01,808 --> 01:06:07,688 benefit mechanisms for doing something about it all to be a part of the conversation. I thought 853 01:06:07,688 --> 01:06:12,748 it was perfectly sensible to be like, let's get rid of op if. And it doesn't even have anything 854 01:06:12,748 --> 01:06:21,368 to do with spam other than the fact that op-if's only quote-unquote positive use case was spam 855 01:06:21,368 --> 01:06:28,748 and that there were multiple good reasons to remove it that had nothing to do with spam, 856 01:06:29,108 --> 01:06:33,708 which means that the only thing that was being used for, I think anybody could say, 857 01:06:33,788 --> 01:06:40,288 was generally a net negative and that the only things that only positive, the quote-unquote 858 01:06:40,288 --> 01:06:44,628 positive things that it would be used for would also be net negatives. So it's like, why do we 859 01:06:44,628 --> 01:06:49,428 have it? And I think it's perfectly reasonable to have that conversation, whether it's about spam or 860 01:06:49,428 --> 01:06:55,788 not, that would have been a net positive change. But I think most people were so wrapped up into 861 01:06:55,788 --> 01:07:02,648 the context, a different context around that conversation that it was your censoring and 862 01:07:02,648 --> 01:07:06,108 And you don't dump inscriptions or transactions too. 863 01:07:06,448 --> 01:07:11,008 Don't, you know, and it just turned into a mess. 864 01:07:12,008 --> 01:07:16,188 For a while there, I thought Core would take this move. 865 01:07:16,448 --> 01:07:17,568 I don't think they will now. 866 01:07:17,648 --> 01:07:18,668 Maybe there's still a chance. 867 01:07:18,668 --> 01:07:26,808 But I thought after the BIP-110 failure, they would say, okay, we hear you. 868 01:07:27,068 --> 01:07:28,088 You guys want this. 869 01:07:28,088 --> 01:07:35,248 we're going to do the like correction to taproot in the right way not the way that bip 110 did it 870 01:07:35,248 --> 01:07:50,184 and um i thought there was a chance they would do that because like they have to have seen the energy there even though it didn win the soft fork like if you just if you look at something like 871 01:07:50,184 --> 01:07:56,765 it would be a smart way to capitalize on it yeah like natalie brunell's subscriber only comments 872 01:07:56,765 -->

01:08:04,725 in her youtube channel with matt kratter which were just overwhelmingly for doing something 873 01:08:04,725 --> 01:08:06,885 to remove spam. 874 01:08:07,964 --> 01:08:09,765 There's no way those were bots. 875 01:08:09,904 --> 01:08:12,145 And like people that walk into the meetup, 876 01:08:12,445 --> 01:08:14,624 you know, like in person in Raleigh, 877 01:08:14,985 --> 01:08:18,304 95% of them are for, you know, 878 01:08:18,485 --> 01:08:22,165 doing something to at least try to remove spam. 879 01:08:22,165 --> 01:08:25,885 But most of the people either don't run a node 880 01:08:25,885 --> 01:08:30,584 or they're not like technical enough 881 01:08:30,584 --> 01:08:32,005 to update their node. 882 01:08:32,005 --> 01:08:37,744 And like they have so much writing on their node that they just don't really want to mess with it. 883 01:08:37,924 --> 01:08:47,744 And like you said, they just they didn't feel passionate enough or connected enough to actually update node software to actually do this. 884 01:08:48,065 --> 01:08:58,825 And like, you know how you said, like the hard forks in the beginning didn't really matter 2010 and 2013 because there was just such a small community. 885 01:08:58,825 --> 01:09:01,085 Well, that same difference applies now. 886 01:09:01,085 --> 01:09:23,005 I mean, how many nodes were there in 2017? 8,000. I mean, and now there's 100,000 nodes. So you have that same dynamic again, where it's like, for all the reasons you mentioned, I agree with you. Bit110 situation is just like a different animal, and it's not really right to compare it to UASF. 887 01:09:23,005 --> 01:09:28,065 But it's also kind of like comparing Hard Fork today to Hard Fork in 2010. 888 01:09:28,285 --> 01:09:33,725 I mean, it's just like you have 10 times the amount of nodes that would need to update. 889 01:09:33,985 --> 01:09:42,524 And the people that are running those nodes are way less passionate about the project than the people used to be. 890 01:09:42,524 --> 01:09:46,885 There's way more diverse in their opinions, reasons, and setups. 891 01:09:47,105 --> 01:09:47,285 Yeah. 892 01:09:48,244 --> 01:09:51,904 And the momentum is always going to be in the direction of no change. 893 01:09:51,904 --> 01:10:00,705 and when it's this is why it's such a problem that core if you update core you're getting a policy 894 01:10:00,705 --> 01:10:08,505 change and and so now you're forcing people to actually make a change in order to support 895 01:10:08,505 --> 01:10:14,005 something that they want and and so the momentum is going to be in the direction of notice easier 896 01:10:14,005 --> 01:10:19,104 to update than it is i mean i guess you could say they could just not update just stay on a version 897 01:10:19,104 --> 01:10:28,024 of core that's old um but but like then if you have this added concern about the stability of 898 01:10:28,024 --> 01:10:34,184 knots or whatever you might whatever else you might change to like you we need an alternative 899 01:10:34,184 --> 01:10:41,784 implementation that is not sketchy like you can't have it if it if it breaks then then everything 900 01:10:41,784 --> 01:10:48,945 that is that you know like you know the momentum of no change being the you know the thing is lost 901 01:10:48,945 --> 01:10:51,945 because if you have a sketchy competitor, 902 01:10:52,684 --> 01:10:54,124 then everybody's safer. 903 01:10:54,364 --> 01:10:57,945 Their money is the thing that people are most worried about. 904 01:10:58,285 --> 01:11:00,225 You don't want a safe that people can break into. 905 01:11:00,585 --> 01:11:01,545 You don't want to, you know. 906 01:11:03,505 --> 01:11:05,665 I mean, hell, look at this cold card incident. 907 01:11:05,665 --> 01:11:10,864 Only the most survival, those with the most survival 908 01:11:10,864 --> 01:11:13,265 or the highest likelihood of surviving 909 01:11:13,265 --> 01:11:15,565 were the people who bought a Trezor, a Ledger, 910 01:11:15,744 --> 01:11:18,585 and a hardware wallet. 911 01:11:18,585 --> 01:11:23,585 from 2013 and a MK1 and never updated, never did Jack. 912 01:11:23,785 --> 01:11:23,965 Yes. 913 01:11:25,124 --> 01:11:26,205 Steve wins. 914 01:11:27,025 --> 01:11:28,265 Finally, a victory. 915 01:11:28,645 --> 01:11:29,505 Dude, American HODL. 916 01:11:29,505 --> 01:11:29,624 Don't update. 917 01:11:30,364 --> 01:11:37,525 We just did a show with Brandon Quidham, HODL, and Akayson. 918 01:11:38,405 --> 01:11:41,405 It was a really good show, but HODL had a really great analogy 919 01:11:41,405 --> 01:11:45,905 of what it felt like because we were all just kind of down in the dumps 920 01:11:45,905 --> 01:11:51,265 about like everything that just happened with cold card and all this crap and how we went from 921 01:11:51,265 --> 01:11:56,704 basically the mildest bear market to like the worst freaking bear market in bitcoin's history 922 01:11:56,704 --> 01:12:04,825 um and uh he had a great analogy where he's like i feel like because he did he dodged the bullet too 923 01:12:04,825 --> 01:12:12,124 because he had uh multi-sick same reason i did i had cold card in every setup 924 01:12:12,124 --> 01:12:18,104 practically every single setup of any consequence um but they were all multi-sick 925 01:12:18,104 --> 01:12:26,565 and uh uh and he had the same thing and he was like it it feels like you got shot like we got 926 01:12:26,565 --> 01:12:30,804 shot and a whole bunch of bitcoiners got shot and we were all standing in a group 927 01:12:30,804 --> 01:12:37,645 but i had a bulletproof vest on who was the shooter i had the bulletproof vest on and i felt it 928 01:12:37,645 --> 01:12:43,184 but I lived and I watched a whole bunch of people that I care about just get shot and 929 01:12:43,184 --> 01:13:06,121 the bullet go right through a die Like is like we and and we didn tell people enough that they needed a bulletproof vest We just you know said that you in a safe area Don worry about

it Or we removed our advice from our website Oh man Yeah If that analysis 930 01:13:06,121 --> 01:13:10,801 is true, who shot the gun, man? That's what I'm interested in. Like, yeah, I feel that pain too. 931 01:13:10,801 --> 01:13:17,061 I feel sad now too. But like, if you just feel sad and you're never interested in who shot the 932 01:13:17,061 --> 01:13:24,721 gun do you actually care i mean like these people trying to say that there's zero chance that cold 933 01:13:24,721 --> 01:13:31,761 card was a state attack it's like you do you know who this wars against it is not zero like 934 01:13:31,761 --> 01:13:39,521 but i feel like you like the the nat natalie brunell like odell crowd is just like you know 935 01:13:39,521 --> 01:13:46,941 the whole austin um nashville like that whole thing is just oh just feel bad oh that what a 936 01:13:46,941 --> 01:13:53,381 terrible thing what what a bad mistake like i never get any sense from that crowd of number one 937 01:13:53,381 --> 01:14:00,681 suspect state attack mvk was involved i never hear that at all from that crowd and that just 938 01:14:00,681 --> 01:14:04,561 bothers me because it's just like you guys know who this war is against right 939 01:14:04,561 --> 01:14:10,361 anyway i won't go i went out that rabbit hole last show i won't do it this show 940 01:14:10,361 --> 01:14:16,501 yeah we we dug into it quite a bit and went back and forth because we did we did the same thing that 941 01:14:16,501 --> 01:14:25,761 we did on the last round table was the is it a state actor i feel how dare nvk well i feel sorry 942 01:14:25,761 --> 01:14:31,061 it's hard to build things it's like we we went back and forth and the whole cto situation and 943 01:14:31,061 --> 01:14:37,541 all this shit you know um hodl had a good point is that he had done explicit dealings with nvk for 944 01:14:37,541 --> 01:14:43,681 a long time and in his personal experience with him he was always he always made decisions on 945 01:14:43,681 --> 01:14:51,861 principle for like the idea of sovereignty, liberty, like open everything and all that 946 01:14:51,861 --> 01:14:57,421 stuff with the exception of open source available and open source, I guess you can say, um, 947 01:14:57,421 --> 01:14:58,301 on cold card. 948 01:14:59,121 --> 01:15:05,261 But, uh, with the whole CTO stuff, I, I wonder, you know, what do you do? 949 01:15:05,321 --> 01:15:10,141 What do you do if, uh, whether or not this is true, I'm still not a hundred percent. 950 01:15:10,201 --> 01:15:11,101 I want to see more. 951 01:15:11,281 --> 01:15:12,121 I want to see more. 952 01:15:12,121 --> 01:15:18,841 I want to see who has the coins and what's, you know, just try to find as many people as we can involved in this. 953 01:15:19,781 --> 01:15:27,981 One of the theories I had on why the CTO would have done what he did with the fake account is a little, makes a little less sense. 954 01:15:29,381 --> 01:15:36,841 But in light of some new evidence related to that. 955 01:15:37,761 --> 01:15:41,461 But regardless, it could have been an error. 956 01:15:41,461 --> 01:15:44,401 It could have just been bloated and convoluted code. 957 01:15:45,921 --> 01:15:50,081 And, you know, it's written in Python and, you know, all this stuff. 958 01:15:50,341 --> 01:15:56,641 And one of the things I thought was that the CTO wasn't actually trying to hide from, like, all this stuff with the Switch account. 959 01:15:57,461 --> 01:16:10,781 From, like, the community and everything at large, he might have been hiding from decisions with NVK and what CoinKite and ColdCard owns versus what was, 960 01:16:10,781 --> 01:16:16,281 oh we pulled it from this other thing and so you know because mbk was very opinionated about 961 01:16:16,281 --> 01:16:22,141 those things and maybe he was just trying to separate that but some of the things make me 962 01:16:22,141 --> 01:16:28,441 think it doesn't line up as well as it's not a good as good an excuse as i thought um but 963 01:16:28,441 --> 01:16:38,281 regardless if you put had somebody infiltrate a company or a team how would you know yeah that's 964 01:16:38,281 --> 01:16:44,881 what i'm saying like have you guys watched that video that i sent you about the the the israeli 965 01:16:44,881 --> 01:16:51,281 pagers the 10-year attack supply chain attack of the pagers i mean did did you read this note in 966 01:16:51,281 --> 01:16:57,781 files like the way that the high levels of government attacks this stuff it's a million 967 01:16:57,781 --> 01:17:04,381 percent possible it's a million times more sophisticated than than we're looking at it 968 01:17:04,381 --> 01:17:07,021 Like, oh, is the name change a big deal? 969 01:17:07,121 --> 01:17:07,641 Like what? 970 01:17:08,301 --> 01:17:09,861 That's not who care. 971 01:17:09,941 --> 01:17:20,861 Like the name change, the anonymity thing, like that's totally irrelevant to the sophistication of what this tap attack would have been if it was from the state, you know? 972 01:17:20,861 --> 01:17:35,001 Well, and the government, the U.S. government has made it explicitly legal to coerce people inside of companies and have those people actually work against their own bosses. 973 01:17:35,401 --> 01:17:41,241 And it's illegal for them to say anything to the company, people inside the company about what they're doing. 974 01:17:41,241 --> 01:18:18,017 And we know for a fact with the Snowden leaks and everything that going on like the WikiLeaks the Vault 7 all these drops anything that we can learn from this if there is one thing it that the CIA not even quietly actively and explicitly puts people in every major and significant company and has agents and rats and infiltrators all over the place who just sit quietly waiting and they have trillions 975 01:18:18,017 --> 01:18:23,737 of dollars in budget that just kind of disappear and we don't know where it goes and who's getting 976 01:18:23,737 --> 01:18:27,517 paid and how

many salaries is that? 977 01:18:28,117 --> 01:18:29,117 How many salaries is that? 978 01:18:29,117 --> 01:18:31,717 I bet it's more than one per company that exists. 979 01:18:32,497 --> 01:18:41,777 yeah easily unfortunately for people in the in minority communities let's say there is a high 980 01:18:41,777 --> 01:18:49,957 tendency to use people that are trans or have any sort of weird sexual orientation or otherwise 981 01:18:49,957 --> 01:18:56,237 because they have weird internet histories or secrets or things that they don't want told 982 01:18:56,237 --> 01:19:01,317 and they and they're insecure people generally so they seek those people out to manipulate them 983 01:19:01,317 --> 01:19:14,237 And I mean, you know, in a lot of cases, if you're trans, it's already a signal that you've been highly manipulated by the propaganda campaigns that have been, you know, that have been put out on the Internet anyway. 984 01:19:14,497 --> 01:19:24,477 So, yeah, I think there are already flags about core and other things that there may be compromised people there. 985 01:19:24,477 --> 01:19:32,997 just from a like stand back like big picture idea about insecurity and stuff is the the people who 986 01:19:32,997 --> 01:19:39,857 need constant external validation to who they are what they are like this the whole idea of claiming 987 01:19:39,857 --> 01:19:45,357 you have to use my pronouns and it doesn't even matter who or what you are in that context is that 988 01:19:45,357 --> 01:19:52,857 that somebody else's speaking is what determines whether you like this whole idea they don't even 989 01:19:52,857 --> 01:19:58,977 let us exist is insane because you're saying that all validation of who and what you are is external 990 01:19:58,977 --> 01:20:06,077 that other people control it and people who are deeply insecure need they covet power like nothing 991 01:20:06,077 --> 01:20:13,557 because they feel they have none of it um and so when someone offers them power they they are some 992 01:20:13,557 --> 01:20:20,417 of the most likely to abuse it because they think everyone is abusing power against them because 993 01:20:20,417 --> 01:20:26,437 they constantly hand it over to people. Like all this, like, oh, I'm offended is a perfect 994 01:20:26,437 --> 01:20:30,357 example of it. You know, being offended by the N word just means that somebody else can 995 01:20:30,357 --> 01:20:36,617 send you into a tirade and destroy your mental stability because they use a word. Like that's 996 01:20:36,617 --> 01:20:41,817 not, that's not power that you can be super offended that somebody else used a word that's 997 01:20:41,817 --> 01:20:46,977 weakness. That means that you're allowing, you're projecting a weakness that says someone 998 01:20:46,977 --> 01:20:53,777 else can control my state of mind. The CIA knows this very, very well. They this is like one of 999 01:20:53,777 --> 01:20:58,817 their most important tools is find the insecure, give them a little

bit of power and dangle, 1000 01:20:59,617 --> 01:21:07,377 you know, like, take advantage of where they think they are weak and turn into an apparent strength, 1001 01:21:07,377 --> 01:21:12,177 turn into what they think it is strength. So they are they remain weak, and they can be controlled 1002 01:21:12,177 --> 01:21:16,337 very clearly and with obvious strings. 1003 01:21:17,857 --> 01:21:19,857 Doug Stanhope has that great bit. 1004 01:21:19,957 --> 01:21:22,517 He's like, when you come out of that pink, ugly hole, 1005 01:21:22,597 --> 01:21:24,377 you're just this little ball of weakness. 1006 01:21:24,677 --> 01:21:28,837 And some of your parents are just like, you're not weak enough. 1007 01:21:29,397 --> 01:21:34,237 Whenever someone, whenever someone says this particular word, 1008 01:21:34,317 --> 01:21:36,997 you should just recoil and be hurt and be a bit like, 1009 01:21:37,037 --> 01:21:38,197 we need to make you weaker. 1010 01:21:38,857 --> 01:21:41,737 And otherwise, when someone called you a cunt, 1011 01:21:41,737 --> 01:21:43,897 You'd just be like, oh, no, my name's Jessica. 1012 01:21:44,157 --> 01:21:44,657 I'm sorry. 1013 01:21:44,857 --> 01:21:47,657 I almost have a face that looks like other people. 1014 01:21:48,677 --> 01:21:51,117 Yeah, like the perfect example is that like, 1015 01:21:51,417 --> 01:21:53,037 I welcome anybody who's listening to this, 1016 01:21:53,117 --> 01:21:54,177 call me a woman. 1017 01:21:55,117 --> 01:21:56,537 I will not lose a wink of sleep. 1018 01:21:57,297 --> 01:22:01,797 Like I will not mispronoun, misgender me. 1019 01:22:02,737 --> 01:22:05,497 So the problem is there is a line, 1020 01:22:05,537 --> 01:22:10,197 there is a line between harassment and... 1021 01:22:10,197 --> 01:22:10,717 Sure. 1022 01:22:10,717 --> 01:22:17,017 harassment is a different thing than simply but listen i've had conversations it's a blurry line 1023 01:22:17,017 --> 01:22:21,677 because i've had conversations with people that will say oh you don't care if i call you a pedophile 1024 01:22:21,677 --> 01:22:28,237 and it's like okay this is very different it's a very different thing but they equate not being 1025 01:22:28,237 --> 01:22:33,357 called what are what they want to be called with calling you a pedophile like it's like 1026 01:22:33,357 --> 01:22:39,337 yeah it's a modern daily that's a modern daily if you ever heard it like no what's that that's 1027 01:22:39,337 --> 01:22:47,257 the argumentation thing where you you loudly proclaim a absurd insane argument over and over 1028 01:22:47,257 --> 01:22:50,037 and over again and then when you get challenged on it because you can't actually defend it 1029 01:22:50,037 --> 01:22:57,077 you fall back to a very sensible claim um like uh in uh abortion or whatever it's that you know 1030 01:22:57,077 --> 01:23:03,297 there should never like my body my choice babies aren't a thing um you know it's just a clump of 1031 01:23:03,297 --> 01:23:07,637 cells

what if somebody doesn't matter yeah yeah and then and then when you say it's like so you're 1032 01:23:07,637 --> 01:23:13,017 saying that like at 28 weeks when there's a full grown baby, like you can just 1033 01:23:13,017 --> 01:23:13,737 destroy it or whatever. 1034 01:23:13,737 --> 01:23:14,877 It's like, well, what if somebody gets raped? 1035 01:23:15,157 --> 01:23:16,397 Well, what if the mother's going to die? 1036 01:23:16,397 --> 01:23:19,957 It's like, well, yeah, but that's like 0.1% of 0.1%. 1037 01:23:19,993 --> 01:23:24,573 You're talking about, you're saying we're going to change this crazy, insane thing. 1038 01:23:25,113 --> 01:23:37,013 And then you're falling back to the 0.1% of gray area that is actually a defensible thing to talk about or hard to determine one way or the other what the right path is. 1039 01:23:37,413 --> 01:23:47,833 Being called a pedophile and publicly stating somebody is a pedophile is a perfect example than saying that you have a dick and balls because you have a dick and balls. 1040 01:23:47,833 --> 01:23:49,673 so like 1041 01:23:49,673 --> 01:23:52,373 you're just claiming it's harassment 1042 01:23:52,373 --> 01:23:54,253 because you don't like it but it's not 1043 01:23:54,253 --> 01:23:56,373 it's factually accurate 1044 01:23:56,373 --> 01:23:58,453 you're just saying that you don't 1045 01:23:58,453 --> 01:24:00,453 want it to be factually accurate because 1046 01:24:00,453 --> 01:24:02,433 you're not okay with what the universe gave you 1047 01:24:02,433 --> 01:24:04,733 and you want something else to be true 1048 01:24:04,733 --> 01:24:06,613 but you know I'm not a cat 1049 01:24:06,613 --> 01:24:08,513 because I want to be one 1050 01:24:08,513 --> 01:24:10,573 and it doesn't make me 1051 01:24:10,573 --> 01:24:12,733 powerful to be like I'm a cat 1052 01:24:12,733 --> 01:24:14,673 and there's nothing you can say about it and if you call me 1053 01:24:14,673 --> 01:24:16,213 a dog I'm going to punch you in the face 1054 01:24:16,213 --> 01:24:24,213 it's like who actually like how few people actually would care um but like you tell me 1055 01:24:24,213 --> 01:24:29,533 i have to say something a certain way or i have to refer to you a certain way and that i'm evil 1056 01:24:29,533 --> 01:24:38,013 if i don't man you just make me you just make me want to do you just make me want to piss you off 1057 01:24:38,013 --> 01:24:43,193 you know like you're telling me what you're telling people is hey i have this button i have 1058 01:24:43,193 --> 01:24:48,713 a button if you want to push it it's gonna make me really angry yeah like you have a red button 1059 01:24:48,713 --> 01:24:53,353 everybody yeah i don't i won't touch the red button don't press the red button like this 1060 01:24:53,353 --> 01:24:59,853 no one of my favorite stories i won't press the red card i don't even remember where it 1061 01:24:59,853 --> 01:25:06,613 where who said it um but they were talking about why gringos why the

people the expats that have 1062 01:25:06,613 --> 01:25:15,293 come to Mexico and Central and South America are so generally, like, there are places where, 1063 01:25:15,473 --> 01:25:23,293 you know, people are still not accepted. But generally, it has become weirdly a term of 1064 01:25:23,293 --> 01:25:28,713 endearment because it was an insult and white people couldn't just be bothered, just couldn't 1065 01:25:28,713 --> 01:25:33,173 be bothered to be insulted. They were just like, yeah, yeah, gringo. Gringo is a cool word. 1066 01:25:33,173 --> 01:25:39,033 if somebody's calling you a fuck face and you're like yeah yeah fuck face and and you have to 1067 01:25:39,033 --> 01:25:45,413 explain to them no no no you're supposed to be insulted and like it already failed i all the 1068 01:25:45,413 --> 01:25:51,033 power's gone and and then it becomes funny right because you realize that you and all your friends 1069 01:25:51,033 --> 01:25:56,473 hey i can call this guy a green card he's totally fine with it and then it just becomes everybody 1070 01:25:56,473 --> 01:25:58,433 has nothing but positive associations 1071 01:25:58,433 --> 01:26:00,913 with it. So it literally becomes 1072 01:26:00,913 --> 01:26:02,493 you take 1073 01:26:02,493 --> 01:26:04,513 all of the power out of the insult 1074 01:26:04,513 --> 01:26:06,493 by just being like, yeah, 1075 01:26:06,493 --> 01:26:08,533 sure, whatever. Yeah, I mean, that's been 1076 01:26:08,533 --> 01:26:10,533 my only strategy for most of my 1077 01:26:10,533 --> 01:26:11,933 life, and I learned that in middle school. 1078 01:26:12,773 --> 01:26:14,293 I remember Skyler, 1079 01:26:14,753 --> 01:26:16,233 our good friend Skyler, 1080 01:26:16,693 --> 01:26:18,033 used to 1081 01:26:18,033 --> 01:26:20,633 give me mad hell about having 1082 01:26:20,633 --> 01:26:22,513 big ears, which looked 1083 01:26:22,513 --> 01:26:24,673 way more extreme when I was 1084 01:26:24,673 --> 01:26:28,993 little like in middle school oh my people picked on me so bad about it um they were pretty big when 1085 01:26:28,993 --> 01:26:35,793 i was little because my head was much smaller um and they were the same size and uh uh and he used 1086 01:26:35,793 --> 01:26:40,353 to give me shit about it real bad and i remember like i have like broke down crying like multiple 1087 01:26:40,353 --> 01:26:47,953 times about like how much people would pick on me about it and um i uh and at some point i just kind 1088 01:26:47,953 --> 01:26:52,113 of realized i think it was because jeff was my older brother and he was a total asshat most of 1089 01:26:52,113 --> 01:26:58,913 the time and so i had to learn how to you know put up my defenses um and one thing jeff that you would 1090 01:26:58,913 --> 01:27:04,693 do when we were little that drove me mad like absolute mad as hell is that you would just kind 1091 01:27:04,693 --> 01:27:09,293 of have like this comp especially when we were like playing and we were playing in like this 1092 01:27:09,293 --> 01:27:17,753 fake when you were pretending and you would just be like no this is no it's not i i won i shot you 1093 01:27:17,753 --> 01:27:23,313 or whatever. And I'd be like, no, you didn't. I clearly came out and I shot you and you would 1094 01:27:23,313 --> 01:27:29,893 just gaslight me to be like, no, no, you didn't. You totally lost. You totally lost. I killed you 1095 01:27:29,893 --> 01:27:37,553 three times before you even hopped out behind your thing. And it infuriated me beyond belief. 1096 01:27:37,553 --> 01:27:44,893 But like some part of my subconscious, which I later put into logic and made sense of, 1097 01:27:44,893 --> 01:27:53,813 was just that the confidence of definition uh when we talk about like defining or accepting 1098 01:27:53,813 --> 01:27:59,093 something confidence is the whole game right stronger frame wins the stronger frame wins 1099 01:27:59,093 --> 01:28:06,593 that's a great way of putting it and i started when skylar would come up and be like um uh it'd 1100 01:28:06,593 --> 01:28:13,433 be like how many how many channels you get on those dishes and i i would be like bitch i get 1101 01:28:13,433 --> 01:28:20,073 porn. Like I get free porn. Like, you know, like I would, I would basically just push it harder. I 1102 01:28:20,073 --> 01:28:37,550 would I started to come up with my own insults and I just kind of like owned it that like I was the coolest person with big ears And ever since then I slowly started taking that as my strategy And it was funny like like when you think about like the 1103 01:28:37,550 --> 01:28:41,670 the black community and the N word is that they started to do that. 1104 01:28:41,890 --> 01:28:44,270 Like that was like a thing and like they owned it. 1105 01:28:44,590 --> 01:28:45,810 That's a really cool, 1106 01:28:45,810 --> 01:28:48,010 like self empowering thing. 1107 01:28:48,010 --> 01:28:48,630 Is it like, 1108 01:28:48,910 --> 01:28:50,090 this is our word now, 1109 01:28:50,090 --> 01:28:50,550 like, 1110 01:28:50,630 --> 01:28:50,950 you know, 1111 01:28:50,950 --> 01:28:51,310 like, 1112 01:28:51,830 --> 01:28:51,970 uh, 1113 01:28:51,970 --> 01:28:52,230 inward, 1114 01:28:52,390 --> 01:28:52,710 please, 1115 01:28:52,830 --> 01:28:53,050 you know, 1116 01:28:53,070 --> 01:28:53,210 like, 1117 01:28:53,210 --> 01:28:53,790 like they just, 1118 01:28:53,890 --> 01:28:54,330 and you just, 1119 01:28:54,450 --> 01:28:56,370 and rap songs and all this stuff. 1120 01:28:56,870 --> 01:28:57,110 Uh, 1121 01:28:57,110 --> 01:28:57,390 but, 1122 01:28:57,490 --> 01:29:05,270 then something about, and I, I don't, uh, withhold MK ultra and all this stuff. I can't help but 1123 01:29:05,270 --> 01:29:11,430 wonder if the, no, you still have to be really, really offended if white people say it, if it 1124 01:29:11,430 --> 01:29:18,290 wasn't important for government to keep that thread alive, you know, to politically manipulate 1125 01:29:18,290 -->

01:29:26,450 people. Um, because if, if it was just owned and nobody cared, I think, I think it would be a 1126 01:29:26,450 --> 01:29:27,990 vastly more 1127 01:29:27,990 --> 01:29:30,030 empowering and 1128 01:29:30,030 --> 01:29:32,510 it would have been the perfect strategy. That's what Yankee was, 1129 01:29:32,670 --> 01:29:32,850 right? 1130 01:29:34,470 --> 01:29:36,170 During the war or whatever, 1131 01:29:36,290 --> 01:29:38,150 they were like, Yankee was an insult. 1132 01:29:38,350 --> 01:29:38,970 And then there's like, 1133 01:29:39,110 --> 01:29:42,010 bitch, I am a Yankee. I'm going to kick your ass. 1134 01:29:42,170 --> 01:29:44,010 They owned it 1135 01:29:44,010 --> 01:29:45,530 and turned it around and 1136 01:29:45,530 --> 01:29:47,850 they got to control what it was. 1137 01:29:48,750 --> 01:29:51,070 that's 1138 01:29:51,070 --> 01:29:52,850 the stronger friend. 1139 01:29:52,850 --> 01:29:53,850 Bitcoin maximalists. 1140 01:29:53,850 --> 01:29:58,230 so many cases of this so many cases you could just go on and on and on we could have a whole 1141 01:29:58,230 --> 01:30:05,230 episode just talking about all the ways in which you turn an insult or a supposed slight into 1142 01:30:05,230 --> 01:30:10,290 something that makes you powerful and that you own uh instead of your uh quote-unquote offender 1143 01:30:10,290 --> 01:30:18,170 um but but you see that canada's at war with the u.s now that that's gonna go well 1144 01:30:18,170 --> 01:30:24,230 seriously like the prime minister of canada said we're at war 1145 01:30:24,230 --> 01:30:32,250 the trump has said that you know he's going to rename it to lake ontario is now lake america 1146 01:30:32,250 --> 01:30:41,770 um because because that makes sense trump is something else they're threatening to like cut 1147 01:30:41,770 --> 01:30:43,970 some sort of, I don't know, 1148 01:30:44,210 --> 01:30:45,010 I don't know if like 1149 01:30:45,010 --> 01:30:47,950 oil sales power, they're cutting 1150 01:30:47,950 --> 01:30:49,850 all sorts of stuff. They're 1151 01:30:49,850 --> 01:30:51,190 recommending, literally the 1152 01:30:51,190 --> 01:30:53,750 leader, governor, whatever of 1153 01:30:53,750 --> 01:30:55,870 British Columbia just told people 1154 01:30:55,870 --> 01:30:57,790 not to buy things from the US 1155 01:30:57,790 --> 01:30:59,670 and not to travel to the US 1156 01:30:59,670 --> 01:31:01,850 if you could avoid it. 1157 01:31:02,770 --> 01:31:03,130 And so 1158 01:31:03,130 --> 01:31:05,270 we're like, 1159 01:31:05,630 --> 01:31:07,890 now the only place that 1160 01:31:07,890 --> 01:31:09,050 my 1161 01:31:09,050 --> 01:31:11,190 wife can, is 1162 01:31:11,190 --> 01:31:15,550 is going to have citizenship outside of Iran may end up being, 1163 01:31:15,550 --> 01:31:19,890 may end up being the war with Iran is over. 1164 01:31:20,530 --> 01:31:21,250 You finally get it. 1165 01:31:21,370 --> 01:31:21,530 It's like, 1166 01:31:21,570 --> 01:31:22,130 ah, 1167 01:31:22,190 --> 01:31:22,870 Canadians. 1168 01:31:24,010 --> 01:31:25,410 Shut up those Canadians. 1169 01:31:26,490 --> 01:31:26,750 I mean, 1170 01:31:26,790 --> 01:31:27,950 the thing is that the, 1171 01:31:27,950 --> 01:31:31,510 the upside is that somebody was pointing out that the prime minister of 1172 01:31:31,510 --> 01:31:37,810 Canada has like 90% of his financial life based in the U S like a bunch of 1173 01:31:37,810 --> 01:31:38,910 his investments and everything. 1174 01:31:38,910 --> 01:31:45,630 so hopefully that means this is not a serious site but i don't know this stuff is probably just 1175 01:31:45,630 --> 01:31:52,150 ridiculous yeah so steve i want to hear about your thing before we were already like way into this um 1176 01:31:52,150 --> 01:31:59,990 coinbase coinbase thing coinbase token oh yeah tell me about this so um yeah i think i might 1177 01:31:59,990 --> 01:32:07,970 have one issue that like most people might unite around um in this kind of like divisionary climate 1178 01:32:07,970 --> 01:32:09,970 so 1179 01:32:09,970 --> 01:32:14,170 this is going to take a little bit of 1180 01:32:14,170 --> 01:32:16,130 just kind of set up because if I 1181 01:32:16,130 --> 01:32:18,170 just say what it is everyone's 1182 01:32:18,170 --> 01:32:19,470 just going to reject it and I 1183 01:32:19,470 --> 01:32:22,150 did bad explaining this once 1184 01:32:22,150 --> 01:32:24,010 so I think 1185 01:32:24,010 --> 01:32:25,790 one of the big elephants in the room 1186 01:32:25,790 --> 01:32:27,610 of the whole Bitcoin 1187 01:32:27,610 --> 01:32:30,170 movement is does 1188 01:32:30,170 --> 01:32:31,790 Coinbase have the coins they have 1189 01:32:31,790 --> 01:32:34,170 would you guys agree 1190 01:32:34,170 --> 01:32:36,110 that's like one of if not 1191 01:32:36,110 --> 01:32:37,310 so serious 1192 01:32:37,310 --> 01:32:42,970 On par with like minor decentralization is like, does Coinbase have the coins? 1193 01:32:43,090 --> 01:32:43,230 Right. 1194 01:32:44,870 --> 01:32:56,530 And we're just kind of like, well, you know, this cold card incident happened and it seems like people are, you know, not self-custodying a lot anymore. 1195 01:32:56,970 --> 01:33:01,830 And are the ETFs really going to challenge the custody? 1196 01:33:02,610 --> 01:33:04,290 Are there going to be bank runs? 1197 01:33:04,290 --> 01:33:10,470 We're just like, how is whether Coinbase has the coins are not ever going to be challenged? 1198 01:33:10,930 --> 01:33:12,330 And I think about this daily. 1199 01:33:13,790 --> 01:33:17,770 And I had a small glimmer of hope, okay? 1200 01:33:18,290 --> 01:33:23,810 So take this in the context of this small glimmer of hope. 1201 01:33:23,890 --> 01:33:26,990 I'm not saying it's a solution, but it might be a path. 1202 01:33:27,830 --> 01:33:33,590 And this involves some shitty things like Ethereum, okay? 1203 01:33:33,590 --> 01:33:37,650 So those are two like hard to swallow pills immediately. 1204

01:33:38,050 --> 01:33:39,850 But here's the idea. 1205 01:33:40,210 --> 01:33:50,386 So Coinbase last year announced a DeFi token called CBBTC Right 1206 01:33:50,526 --> 01:33:52,706 So this is one of those B I know. 1207 01:33:52,806 --> 01:33:53,066 Right. 1208 01:33:53,626 --> 01:33:55,266 That's why I had to preface this. 1209 01:33:55,266 --> 01:33:55,686 Okay. 1210 01:33:56,346 --> 01:33:56,766 Um, 1211 01:33:56,766 --> 01:33:57,686 with the, 1212 01:33:57,686 --> 01:33:57,986 the, 1213 01:33:58,206 --> 01:34:00,766 what it's going towards and like how it might be a solution. 1214 01:34:01,546 --> 01:34:01,966 Um, 1215 01:34:02,346 --> 01:34:08,546 so CBBTC is one of those stupid wrapped Bitcoin things that they transmit on 1216 01:34:08,546 --> 01:34:18,646 Tron and Solana and Ethereum or whatever. Interestingly though, you can run your, from your 1217 01:34:18,646 --> 01:34:30,426 computer and scan those blockchains and you can see how much CB BTC exists on, on that network. 1218 01:34:30,426 --> 01:34:51,386 A every Coinbase customer has the ability to download the app on their phone, the base app, and withdraw their Bitcoin from Coinbase as CBBTC on their phone. 1219 01:34:52,766 --> 01:34:56,286 So you don't have a Bitcoin balance on Coinbase anymore. 1220 01:34:56,526 --> 01:34:58,686 You have CBBTC on your phone. 1221 01:34:58,686 --> 01:35:23,266 Now, here's the key part. Coinbase was pressured last year that they did not actually have that CBBTC was imaginary or whatever. Coinbase's reaction to that was, no, it's not. Here are the Bitcoin addresses for the CBBTC wrapped Bitcoin token. 1222 01:35:23,266 --> 01:35:32,046 So Coinbase, if you hold Bitcoin on Coinbase, it's paper, right? 1223 01:35:32,566 --> 01:35:40,246 They don't even try to publish any addresses saying that here's the collection of addresses that corresponds to our customers' Bitcoin. 1224 01:35:40,246 --> 01:35:43,166 for their CBBTC token 1225 01:35:43,166 --> 01:35:45,246 they have a public 1226 01:35:45,246 --> 01:35:45,906 website 1227 01:35:45,906 --> 01:35:49,126 that lists Bitcoin addresses 1228 01:35:49,126 --> 01:35:51,366 that contain the full 1229 01:35:51,366 --> 01:35:53,366 balance of all their 1230 01:35:53,366 --> 01:35:55,366 CBBTC Bitcoin 1231 01:35:55,366 --> 01:35:56,926 token not 1232 01:35:56,926 --> 01:35:59,046 one for one like you can't say like 1233 01:35:59,046 --> 01:35:59,966 freaking mouthful 1234 01:35:59,966 --> 01:36:03,226 here's my CBBTC 1235 01:36:03,226 --> 01:36:05,166 on my phone where's my address 1236 01:36:05,166 --> 01:36:07,066 you can't say it sound like you're stuttering 1237 01:36:07,066 --> 01:36:09,106 CBBC 1238 01:36:09,106 --> 01:36:17,626 CBBTC. CBBTC. CBBTC. Yeah, we need a better thing for this. Okay, the Coinbase wrapped Bitcoin, 1239 01:36:17,766 --> 01:36:23,666 okay? Coinbase is wrapped Bitcoin. But they publish those addresses. It's on a Coinbase.com 1240 01:36:23,666 --> 01:36:29,566 address. It says proof of reserves. And it's a proof of reserves, not for Coinbase's Bitcoin, 1241 01:36:29,566 --> 01:36:33,006 but for Coinbase's wrapped Bitcoin token. 1242 01:36:34,006 --> 01:36:35,566 And all of their, 1243 01:36:35,946 --> 01:36:44,626 all of these token movements are verifiable on the Ethereum blockchain or 1244 01:36:44,626 --> 01:36:45,906 Ethereum Tron, 1245 01:36:46,326 --> 01:36:46,666 whatever. 1246 01:36:47,806 --> 01:36:51,166 So this glimmer of hope is like, 1247 01:36:51,206 --> 01:36:52,986 if you think of proof of keys, 1248 01:36:54,026 --> 01:36:54,346 right? 1249 01:36:54,546 --> 01:36:56,846 We have this kind of like crazy idea, 1250 01:36:56,846 --> 01:37:03,166 or used to have this crazy idea that like once a year on january 3rd everyone would withdraw their 1251 01:37:03,166 --> 01:37:12,846 um bitcoin to their wallet it would force the coin the exchanges to sort of admit whether they 1252 01:37:12,846 --> 01:37:21,106 have the coins or not right but that's never going to happen because like nobody has uh you know one 1253 01:37:21,106 --> 01:37:28,466 percent of coinbase customers have a wallet to withdraw to right but this is in another mechanism 1254 01:37:28,466 --> 01:37:38,686 that is much easier and much simpler and if like we can have this kind of growing movement of people 1255 01:37:38,686 --> 01:37:44,066 being like i don't expect people with a million dollars on coinbase to withdraw it to their base 1256 01:37:44,066 --> 01:37:53,546 that, but like the plebs with like a thousand, like $10,000 on Coinbase, if they simply withdraw 1257 01:37:53,546 --> 01:38:00,766 that to their, their app on their phone as wrapped Bitcoin, Coinbase is essentially forced 1258 01:38:00,766 --> 01:38:09,466 to show a Bitcoin address to reflect that you have that on your phone. Now it's kind of like a 1259 01:38:09,466 --> 01:38:12,486 a modified like proof of keys kind of thing. 1260 01:38:12,846 --> 01:38:17,166 And I'm only saying this because I know this is a weird, 1261 01:38:17,366 --> 01:38:17,986 sketchy, 1262 01:38:18,026 --> 01:38:19,346 non hopeful plan, 1263 01:38:19,606 --> 01:38:20,266 but it's the, 1264 01:38:20,306 --> 01:38:21,346 it's the only, 1265 01:38:21,506 --> 01:38:24,286 it's the only thing I've thought of that put, 1266 01:38:24,286 --> 01:38:28,786 that gives any direction to the idea of maybe helping, 1267 01:38:29,106 --> 01:38:29,866 you know, 1268 01:38:30,186 --> 01:38:33,266 solve the problem of Coinbase never revealing their coins. 1269 01:38:33,586 --> 01:38:33,746 I mean, 1270 01:38:33,766 --> 01:38:34,786 if everybody did this, 1271 01:38:35,146 --> 01:38:39,126 if everybody with Bitcoin on Coinbase did this, 1272 01:38:39,466 --> 01:38:44,026 simply withdraw to their phone as wrapped bitcoin coinbase would have to reveal the 1273 01:38:44,026 --> 01:38:51,386 addresses for every coins that they have i'm behind this i'm behind this plan 100 i i like 1274 01:38:51,386 --> 01:39:05,242 that not

i know that not going to happen but that is the true fact because bitcoin showed up as wrapped Bitcoin on your phone that means that they had to put that transaction on the Ethereum or Tron network as wrapped Bitcoin 1275 01:39:05,802 --> 01:39:13,342 All those transactions can be verified by everyone. So we can see how much Bitcoin they've put. And 1276 01:39:13,342 --> 01:39:19,022 then, so we know how much wrapped Bitcoin they've put out there. And then on their website, they are 1277 01:39:19,022 --> 01:39:20,882 forced to show Bitcoin addresses 1278 01:39:20,882 --> 01:39:22,762 matching how much wrapped 1279 01:39:22,762 --> 01:39:23,922 Bitcoin they've put out there. 1280 01:39:25,102 --> 01:39:26,882 So, does 1281 01:39:26,882 --> 01:39:28,782 that finally all make sense now, Guy? I know 1282 01:39:28,782 --> 01:39:30,162 I explained it terribly before. 1283 01:39:30,822 --> 01:39:32,782 It would provide a capacity to 1284 01:39:32,782 --> 01:39:34,802 an internal bank run. You know, like 1285 01:39:34,802 --> 01:39:36,742 going back to the idea of like 1286 01:39:36,742 --> 01:39:38,262 nodes and 1287 01:39:38,262 --> 01:39:42,242 like withdrawals 1288 01:39:42,242 --> 01:39:44,582 and the power and like what 1289 01:39:44,582 --> 01:39:46,522 the whole idea of Bitcoin 1290 01:39:46,522 --> 01:39:47,062 is. 1291 01:39:47,062 --> 01:39:55,702 is that the whole reason Bitcoin might actually provide some sort of check on this whole thing 1292 01:39:55,702 --> 01:40:00,342 is the exact same way bank runs did. 1293 01:40:01,482 --> 01:40:01,682 All right? 1294 01:40:02,042 --> 01:40:02,142 Yeah. 1295 01:40:02,562 --> 01:40:04,562 We got to have bank runs on Coinbase. 1296 01:40:05,262 --> 01:40:10,882 Bank runs on a bank are exactly what kept banks honest. 1297 01:40:11,502 --> 01:40:12,062 Honest. 1298 01:40:12,062 --> 01:40:20,742 It is what forced them to be responsible and enforced a sense of fraud is not going to survive in this space. 1299 01:40:21,242 --> 01:40:24,642 And so many people will tell me that like no central banking is necessary. 1300 01:40:25,082 --> 01:40:26,562 Look how few bank runs we've had. 1301 01:40:27,122 --> 01:40:27,422 Yeah. 1302 01:40:27,722 --> 01:40:29,942 And look how much fraud we have. 1303 01:40:30,442 --> 01:40:33,002 Like bank runs are not the thing to solve. 1304 01:40:33,402 --> 01:40:36,602 Bank runs are the solution to the problem, you moron. 1305 01:40:37,422 --> 01:40:40,782 Like a sound money is pointless if you don't have bank runs. 1306 01:40:40,782 --> 01:40:48,602 like who cares that money is sound yeah who cares that gold is sound gold being sound doesn't mean 1307 01:40:48,602 --> 01:40:52,142 anything because there's no bank runs because you can't because you can't bank run it you can't you 1308 01:40:52,142 --> 01:40:57,642 can't bank run a central bank of the gold and there's going to be a collection there's going 1309 01:40:57,642 --> 01:41:02,562 to be centralized custodian entities of any sound money no matter what there's no way you can stop 1310 01:41:02,562 --> 01:41:10,582 that but so the only fight to keep it relevant is to have exchange runs and and bank runs so can we 1311 01:41:10,582 --> 01:41:16,162 start should we start like a bet on polymarket of whether or not coinbase has the coins is that 1312 01:41:16,162 --> 01:41:20,842 a thing yet no because polymarket would need a way to answer that and the only solution to answer 1313 01:41:20,842 --> 01:41:27,762 that is my solution and nobody's like how is there going to be an outcome there's never going to be 1314 01:41:27,762 --> 01:41:33,982 an outcome no one's going to force them except for my way does there have to be does there have 1315 01:41:33,982 --> 01:41:39,062 to be a specific end date to make a bet yeah it's got to be an outcome you have to have well i mean 1316 01:41:39,062 --> 01:41:41,402 So there will be an outcome one day. 1317 01:41:41,662 --> 01:41:42,762 Oh, no. There's got to be a date. 1318 01:41:43,302 --> 01:41:45,082 Yeah. Okay. So there has to be a clear... 1319 01:41:45,082 --> 01:41:47,182 I guess that makes sense. You have to have a clear time frame. 1320 01:41:49,482 --> 01:41:51,142 What can you make a bet? 1321 01:41:51,302 --> 01:41:53,362 Because if you can come up with a bet 1322 01:41:53,362 --> 01:41:55,462 that would pressure... 1323 01:41:55,462 --> 01:41:57,342 somehow create pressure for Coinbase. 1324 01:41:57,562 --> 01:41:59,142 There's actually a financial... 1325 01:41:59,142 --> 01:42:01,202 There's actually a financial incentive for them to 1326 01:42:01,202 --> 01:42:02,302 prove one way or the other. 1327 01:42:02,302 --> 01:42:02,782 You know? 1328 01:42:03,682 --> 01:42:05,602 Well, you can just say, will 1329 01:42:05,602 --> 01:42:08,102 Coinbase offer proof of reserves 1330 01:42:08,102 --> 01:42:10,242 for all of their coins with Bitcoin 1331 01:42:10,242 --> 01:42:12,742 addresses by December 31st. 1332 01:42:12,782 --> 01:42:13,862 You could make that bet. 1333 01:42:14,662 --> 01:42:15,182 No. 1334 01:42:19,822 --> 01:42:22,462 Coinbase is going to be like, how many billions 1335 01:42:22,462 --> 01:42:23,642 are on this bet? 1336 01:42:23,862 --> 01:42:26,182 If the odds are really bad. 1337 01:42:26,182 --> 01:42:28,362 Hey, that might actually 1338 01:42:28,362 --> 01:42:28,782 work. 1339 01:42:29,062 --> 01:42:31,522 But they're like not even a billion. 1340 01:42:32,202 --> 01:42:33,462 They don't even notice it. 1341 01:42:36,362 --> 01:42:37,282 Oh, man. 1342 01:42:38,102 --> 01:42:46,142 But yeah, well, I think we're kind of at the end of this year. 1343 01:42:46,262 --> 01:42:50,342 Yeah, I will say there was one thing I kind of wanted to get to 1344 01:42:50,342 --> 01:42:55,782 with Jeff said about like the momentum is to not change Bitcoin. 1345 01:42:56,502 --> 01:42:59,382 And that's why it's hard to like, you know, 1346 01:42:59,702 --> 01:43:02,642 gather anybody for any kind of user

activated software 1347 01:43:02,642 --> 01:43:03,562 or anything like that. 1348 01:43:04,562 --> 01:43:05,802 I agree with that. 1349 01:43:05,802 --> 01:43:15,802 But like not changing Bitcoin is very complicated because technically you can say that Taproot wasn't a change to Bitcoin. 1350 01:43:17,122 --> 01:43:26,942 And like right now, for example, Core is main pushes for the great consensus cleanup, which is a bit 54. 1351 01:43:27,622 --> 01:43:34,882 And from what it looks like, the way that they're going to activate this is just going to be completely invisibly. 1352 01:43:35,802 --> 01:43:48,402 They're reaching out to mining pool operators and trying to get the mining pool operators to buy in to begin with so that they can do this soft fork with essentially nobody even noticing. 1353 01:43:50,442 --> 01:43:58,802 So like soft forks that add features or whatever are weirdly in your camp of like not changing Bitcoin. 1354 01:44:00,282 --> 01:44:03,322 So it's like it's kind of complicated like that. 1355 01:44:03,322 --> 01:44:09,942 And unfortunately, I think we are in the dynamic now where we're kind of reliant upon this relationship. 1356 01:44:09,979 --> 01:44:14,979 between core and the miners and maybe exchanges really. 1357 01:44:15,859 --> 01:44:18,699 Like if core wants to push a feature, 1358 01:44:18,699 --> 01:44:23,699 like let's say core wants to enable a transaction type, 1359 01:44:24,019 --> 01:44:29,019 which would be videos for Citria advertisements. 1360 01:44:30,639 --> 01:44:31,479 Okay. 1361 01:44:32,259 --> 01:44:33,879 Like you mean like on the chain? 1362 01:44:34,959 --> 01:44:35,799 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1363 01:44:35,799 --> 01:44:41,499 A four megabyte witness inscription that's video advertisement for Citria. 1364 01:44:41,839 --> 01:44:47,939 They can do this with a soft fork just by getting miners to agree to it. 1365 01:44:48,259 --> 01:45:00,259 In a bizarre use of language, it would be technically considered a restriction of the rules. 1366 01:45:00,599 --> 01:45:02,739 And that's why it can be done with a soft fork. 1367 01:45:02,739 --> 01:45:12,239 because like if you talk to the super devs like Luke and all the all the super core devs 1368 01:45:12,239 --> 01:45:21,919 they'll say that taproot was a restriction of the rule set and that's why it could be done 1369 01:45:21,919 --> 01:45:28,719 with a soft fork even Matt Hill from start nine went on this thing about how all soft forks are 1370 01:45:28,719 --> 01:45:34,759 restrictions and they're technically right the weird thing is is that like if you add a new 1371 01:45:34,759 --> 01:45:42,599 transaction type to bitcoin and you do that with a soft fork that can be in the textbook definition 1372 01:45:42,599 --> 01:45:49,879 carved out as a restriction because to old nodes there's this massive anyone can spend thing which 1373 01:45:49,879 --> 01:45:57,299 is infinite and technically you're you're carving out that anyone can spend into a slightly smaller 1374 01:45:57,299 --> 01:46:08,019 set of infinite by by making a new transaction type that does this um and so right you're sort 1375 01:46:08,019 --> 01:46:13,559 of creating uh it's almost like you're creating an invalidation of an original transaction to 1376 01:46:13,559 --> 01:46:17,779 create a whole different to signal a whole different thing that's like the old nodes don't 1377 01:46:17,779 --> 01:46:24,799 even see exactly yeah because there's there's all this stuff that old nodes don't even see 1378 01:46:24,799 --> 01:46:32,359 you can create this new transaction type and soft work which has totally crazy features 1379 01:46:32,359 --> 01:46:40,999 right and you can say that that's not changing bitcoin and so i don't know it's just it's more 1380 01:46:40,999 --> 01:46:47,459 complicated than just um nodes will stand up and fight against any major change because 1381 01:46:47,459 --> 01:46:53,619 they can do major changes that are this is what i think knots or or some other competing 1382 01:46:53,619 --> 01:47:02,559 client that is very conservative and very stable but that offers filters and options and and kind 1383 01:47:02,559 --> 01:47:11,319 of counters everything core is doing is super duper important um and and and i think just like 1384 01:47:11,319 --> 01:47:18,299 slow and easy you know like being patient and allowing giving people i would assume it would 1385 01:47:18,299 --> 01:47:24,699 take years to, you know, give people the time to adopt these things, the time to get on board with 1386 01:47:24,699 --> 01:47:31,159 the conservative approach to Bitcoin or whatever. Like, you know, if you create a conservative 1387 01:47:31,159 --> 01:47:37,399 alternative client and your goal is to attract people that haven't updated their core client in 1388 01:47:37,399 --> 01:47:43,459 like five years, then you should expect that it might take five years for them to adopt 1389 01:47:43,459 --> 01:47:45,279 your client. You know what I mean? 1390 01:47:45,279 --> 01:47:47,039 Like, so, um, 1391 01:47:47,479 --> 01:47:49,219 so like, I think it's a 1392 01:47:49,219 --> 01:47:51,239 naturally painfully 1393 01:47:51,239 --> 01:47:52,959 slow process. 1394 01:47:53,899 --> 01:47:55,239 I set up a 1395 01:47:55,239 --> 01:47:57,139 knots node, but then my node got like 1396 01:47:57,139 --> 01:47:58,939 I've been moving around. And so 1397 01:47:58,939 --> 01:48:01,199 I'm not running any of the things that I would like 1398 01:48:01,199 --> 01:48:03,139 to be doing right now. And 1399 01:48:03,139 --> 01:48:05,239 my intention is 1400 01:48:05,239 --> 01:48:07,559 that in the future sometime I'm going to be 1401 01:48:07,559 --> 01:48:09,519 you know, running 1402 01:48:09,519 --> 01:48:11,439 a knots node that I can set the filters 1403 01:48:11,439 --> 01:48:13,279 I'm going to be mining on data. I'm going to be doing all 1404 01:48:13,279 --> 01:48:18,959 these things but right now like i don't know how long it's going to

be before i'm in that situation 1405 01:48:18,959 --> 01:48:24,179 again you know like i'm not i'm not home i'm not i'm going to be you know we're driving across the 1406 01:48:24,179 --> 01:48:31,239 country or whatever in a month or so so like like when that's going to happen i have no idea like 1407 01:48:31,239 --> 01:48:37,719 and so this is just an intention i have that is again potentially years out you know i don't know 1408 01:48:37,719 --> 01:48:39,539 I know where I want to be 1409 01:48:39,539 --> 01:48:41,179 I know that I don't 1410 01:48:41,179 --> 01:48:44,039 I've also got cold storage setups 1411 01:48:44,039 --> 01:48:44,379 that 1412 01:48:44,379 --> 01:48:46,139 I'm 1413 01:48:46,139 --> 01:48:49,779 would like to do differently or whatever 1414 01:48:49,779 --> 01:48:51,759 I've got a multi-sig arrangement 1415 01:48:51,759 --> 01:48:52,739 that I need to change 1416 01:48:52,739 --> 01:48:54,479 but all these things are 1417 01:48:54,479 --> 01:48:57,139 I know I'm safe in what I've got right this second 1418 01:48:57,139 --> 01:48:58,819 it's not like an emergency 1419 01:48:58,819 --> 01:49:00,859 and so it's very 1420 01:49:00,859 --> 01:49:03,839 having the time and space to change 1421 01:49:03,839 --> 01:49:04,619 these things 1422 01:49:04,619 --> 01:49:06,999 is kind of a 1423 01:49:07,719 --> 01:49:08,539 a critical thing. 1424 01:49:08,619 --> 01:49:09,139 Like you don't, 1425 01:49:09,199 --> 01:49:10,279 you don't just move, 1426 01:49:10,459 --> 01:49:10,839 you know, 1427 01:49:11,359 --> 01:49:12,419 lots of money tomorrow, 1428 01:49:12,599 --> 01:49:12,859 you know, 1429 01:49:12,879 --> 01:49:13,699 for no reason, 1430 01:49:13,819 --> 01:49:14,039 you know, 1431 01:49:14,079 --> 01:49:14,339 you, 1432 01:49:14,459 --> 01:49:16,959 you kind of want everything to be right. 1433 01:49:17,119 --> 01:49:27,862 Everything moves slow and deliberate or it should Right Yeah And and it the same thing if you especially if you running a business or anything else Like you need you know you need a setup that just works 1434 01:49:28,262 --> 01:49:29,422 You can't have downtime. 1435 01:49:30,242 --> 01:49:47,422 I will say too, with just kind of like that idea, is that one of the benefits of like staying and pushing towards minor and client decentralization or alternative, 1436 01:49:47,482 --> 01:49:55,562 alternatives um like block template and then client alternatives is that every single time 1437 01:49:55,562 --> 01:50:02,802 like something is contentious with kind of like the status quo group or the status quo maintainers 1438 01:50:02,802 --> 01:50:11,982 or whatever it is like the the resistance gets larger and more important you know like this 1439 01:50:11,982 --> 01:50:19,182 whole debacle around op return has made more of a push towards alternative clients and conversations 1440 01:50:19,182 --> 01:50:26,442 around needing resistance, I guess, against one group just kind of making decisions and dismissing 1441 01:50:26,442 --> 01:50:34,542 everybody else's input than I've seen in Bitcoin in a long time. Like there's multiple people and 1442 01:50:34,542 --> 01:50:40,502 or groups talking about creating a new client geared toward a different thing. Samson Mal and 1443 01:50:40,502 --> 01:50:47,602 their group, the production ready or whatever it is, is talking about creating a client, 1444 01:50:47,742 --> 01:50:56,062 John Attack. I think he would be a great candidate for putting, he seems invested and motivated to do 1445 01:50:56,062 --> 01:51:01,282 the exact same sort of thing and was asking advice on, you know, would you support this? 1446 01:51:01,382 --> 01:51:05,482 Would you be interested in what should I do and how should I do it? Multiple people even said, 1447 01:51:05,482 --> 01:51:11,062 you should keep the knots client running and you should just take knots and extend it and put it 1448 01:51:11,062 --> 01:51:16,002 into your own. That was you? Yeah. But that's a great, great example though. I think that's a 1449 01:51:16,002 --> 01:51:23,382 wonderful push. And the thing is, is if, if we had 2% of the network or 10% of the nodes or whatever, 1450 01:51:23,682 --> 01:51:30,822 and then something happens again and you know, you stay, you stay in the game and you don't go 1451 01:51:30,822 --> 01:51:36,742 all in and you don't, you know, throw everything in on one hand, they put their foot in their 1452 01:51:36,742 --> 01:51:41,262 mouth again, or something again, looks like a total dismissal. 1453 01:51:41,482 --> 01:51:43,282 You catch more people next time. 1454 01:51:44,202 --> 01:51:47,602 You know, like, like we saw a big bump in all of this, right? 1455 01:51:47,682 --> 01:51:49,642 Because of this last debacle. 1456 01:51:50,402 --> 01:51:56,482 What if next time it's, it's over demurrage, you know, what if next time it's a contentiousness 1457 01:51:56,482 --> 01:51:57,402 about quantum? 1458 01:51:57,402 --> 01:52:02,922 like whoever is the dominant alternative is going to be the best hedge we have against 1459 01:52:02,922 --> 01:52:08,662 taking a rushed or stupid approach. Maybe it's the great consensus cleanup. And there's 1460 01:52:08,662 --> 01:52:14,462 disagreement over some of the changes and what those consequences might be. I think you have to 1461 01:52:14,462 --> 01:52:26,362 wait for the, the quote unquote, establishment to push things aggressively. And because every 1462 01:52:26,362 --> 01:52:33,002 single thing and every single upgrade is going to have some degree of pushback and that i think 1463 01:52:33,002 --> 01:52:40,062 creates natural resistance um but you know whatever i still think i still think the trajectory is 1464 01:52:40,062 --> 01:52:46,482 actually pretty good um because of a lot of what's going on noster was created in response to 1465 01:52:46,482 --> 01:52:52,942 censorship on twitter and other social media and and it saw its greatest periods of growth 1466 01:52:52,942 -->

01:52:55,342 during the worst of the censorship, you know. 1467 01:52:55,722 --> 01:52:58,042 And it also kind of declined when Elon took over 1468 01:52:58,042 --> 01:53:01,282 and just kind of like stamped out a bunch of 1469 01:53:01,282 --> 01:53:05,322 what people were complaining about or like frustrated with. 1470 01:53:05,382 --> 01:53:06,502 This is the risk. 1471 01:53:06,682 --> 01:53:09,242 If Core is starting to make changes 1472 01:53:09,242 --> 01:53:11,562 and trying to do it covertly and quietly, 1473 01:53:12,342 --> 01:53:15,922 then it's sort of similar to, you know, 1474 01:53:15,922 --> 01:53:19,102 if Twitter and Facebook and all these other things 1475 01:53:19,102 --> 01:53:22,262 can use algorithms and quietly censor 1476 01:53:22,262 --> 01:53:25,782 and blacklist people without them even realizing 1477 01:53:25,782 --> 01:53:28,422 how much they're being censored or blacklisted, 1478 01:53:28,662 --> 01:53:33,382 then you have much less obvious reasons 1479 01:53:33,382 --> 01:53:34,942 to drive people to alternatives. 1480 01:53:35,822 --> 01:53:38,522 So if Core is doing this, 1481 01:53:39,302 --> 01:53:42,262 like we're just going to quietly move it in the direction we want, 1482 01:53:42,562 --> 01:53:44,882 then you don't have these contentious things 1483 01:53:44,882 --> 01:53:47,362 where people are bothered by what's happening. 1484 01:53:47,922 --> 01:53:49,222 Nobody even pays attention to it. 1485 01:53:49,222 --> 01:54:03,942 So we need people that are in Bitcoin, that are paying attention to what the hell they're doing and making it known when they're doing something that's undesirable and making noise about it so that there's reason to adopt knots or whatever else. 1486 01:54:07,262 --> 01:54:15,342 I'd say I agree with you guys, but I also have the sense in which I'm thinking about that same thing on a different layer. 1487 01:54:16,582 --> 01:54:18,042 So I agree with you. 1488 01:54:18,042 --> 01:54:29,922 It is we need to have more competing clients and more kind of difficult conversations and a group to kind of fight against core within like the mothership here. 1489 01:54:29,922 --> 01:54:53,224 But I also kind of like rethinking my idea of being like a single coin maxi so hard If like maybe that was an attack vector like I like now that there going to be more hard forks because now we have not just competing 1490 01:54:53,224 --> 01:54:58,245 It's kind of like if you're the state of North Carolina, right? 1491 01:54:58,245 --> 01:55:06,185 Yeah, it's good to have like competing camps and factions in the government of North Carolina for making better decisions overall. 1492 01:55:06,664 --> 01:55:08,505 It's also good to have the state of Virginia. 1493 01:55:09,505 --> 01:55:09,584 Yeah. 1494 01:55:09,964 --> 01:55:19,625 You know, it's also good to have people leaving the state and moving to a different state as a check on that state, you know. 1495 01:55:20,464 --> 01:55:21,524 So like. 1496 01:55:22,024 --> 01:55:23,964 I actually completely agree with you. 1497 01:55:24,024 --> 01:55:27,204 It's not it's not black and white either way. 1498 01:55:27,204 --> 01:55:42,704 And I actually said this way back in 2017 was that, you know, despite the fact that I disagreed and thought like this wasn't the right path and didn't believe like thought big blocks were not the way to go. 1499 01:55:42,925 --> 01:55:49,185 I was actually really happy with the fork because I recognize that I don't know. 1500 01:55:50,485 --> 01:55:52,704 You know, like I'm not an experiment. 1501 01:55:53,164 --> 01:55:54,324 It's an experiment. 1502 01:55:54,324 --> 01:55:55,644 It is an experiment. 1503 01:55:55,824 --> 01:55:56,284 Exactly. 1504 01:55:56,284 --> 01:56:01,945 and that's why i think bitcoin overall wins it's not because it's a single chain 1505 01:56:01,945 --> 01:56:06,925 it's that it has the ability to soft fork and hard fork and like all that stuff i said about 1506 01:56:06,925 --> 01:56:14,245 the basement like that's part of the magic of it and i mean yeah maybe like okay i'll grant you guys 1507 01:56:14,245 --> 01:56:20,385 if luke would have stayed the course would have made a longer plan would have gathered more momentum 1508 01:56:20,385 --> 01:56:25,565 before he you know tried to propose something as serious as a soft fork like that maybe that 1509 01:56:25,565 --> 01:56:31,685 have worked out better. I'll grant you guys that. Maybe that would have been a better path, 1510 01:56:31,764 --> 01:56:37,404 but that just wasn't going to happen with how Luke was feeling about his position in the space. 1511 01:56:39,125 --> 01:56:46,425 Now that he's forked off, I go back to what I used to tell my meetup a long time ago, 1512 01:56:46,425 --> 01:56:51,164 where I was like, guys, I'm not a fan of Bitcoin. I'm a fan of the strongest, 1513 01:56:51,164 --> 01:56:55,724 most decentralized cryptocurrency and i don't care what the name of that cryptocurrency is 1514 01:56:56,284 --> 01:57:00,685 because this is about fighting fiat i mean i don't i don't care if it's even cryptocurrency 1515 01:57:00,685 --> 01:57:06,204 it's like a magic technology appeared tomorrow and wasn't cryptocurrency and had a better chance 1516 01:57:06,204 --> 01:57:14,125 of killing fiat i'd be on that ship immediately um so like you know it's kind of it's a pandora's 1517 01:57:14,125 --> 01:57:21,445 box it's the medusa that like splits its heads when it needs to and like terminator and like you 1518 01:57:21,445 --> 01:57:28,005 know it goes into a million different like liquid metal stuff and then like recombines and stuff um 1519 01:57:28,005 --> 01:57:34,245 i don't know i'd say it like that i mean i'm with you guy yeah it's it's overall good um there's a 1520 01:57:34,245 --> 01:57:42,005 possibility and a very non-zero possibility and it'll be really interesting in fact it may very 1521 01:57:42,005 --> 01:57:50,784 will be inevitable at some point in

Bitcoin's future, that capacity to hard fork may actually 1522 01:57:50,784 --> 01:57:53,904 be what saves it from some disaster. 1523 01:57:53,904 --> 01:58:02,024 And that the hard fork itself, a contentious and very violent fork actually becomes the 1524 01:58:02,024 --> 01:58:06,784 dominant chain in some way or the change with the least inertia, right? 1525 01:58:06,784 --> 01:58:13,985 The one that is genuinely the change is actually the one that succeeds or wins. 1526 01:58:14,625 --> 01:58:25,404 And it may purely be because they split in a very close way, you know, like maybe even as a minority, you know, 40, 60 type thing. 1527 01:58:25,745 --> 01:58:30,985 When there is a huge contentiousness or a basic, very likely a political. 1528 01:58:31,784 --> 01:58:33,404 It could be a huge political battle. 1529 01:58:33,404 --> 01:58:38,224 but the minority simply survives out of the correct path. 1530 01:58:38,545 --> 01:58:40,545 You know, like the other one simply succumbs 1531 01:58:40,545 --> 01:58:42,824 to whatever the vulnerability or the risk was. 1532 01:58:43,464 --> 01:58:47,444 So I would even wager that it's more likely 1533 01:58:47,444 --> 01:58:49,805 that it would be a small minority, 1534 01:58:50,305 --> 01:58:52,564 10 or 20% that forked off. 1535 01:58:52,724 --> 01:58:55,925 And then that surviving after 10 or 20 years 1536 01:58:55,925 --> 01:58:58,324 to become the dominant thing. 1537 01:58:58,605 --> 01:59:02,605 That may be what the next reserve currency shift 1538 01:59:02,605 --> 01:59:08,485 looks like after a post-Bitcoin world, you know? Yeah. If you, if you look at how things tend to 1539 01:59:08,485 --> 01:59:16,164 happen, I mean, you know, Ron Paul, Bitcoiners in general were laughed at for how many years before, 1540 01:59:16,164 --> 01:59:22,545 you know, is like, oh, okay, this thing's for real. Ron Paul was, you know, being made fun of 1541 01:59:22,545 --> 01:59:30,824 on daily talk on day, daytime talk shows in the eighties for his views. And there is nobody that 1542 01:59:30,824 --> 01:59:39,664 has more uh you know like in the political world has has any more respect and followers that are 1543 01:59:39,664 --> 01:59:52,427 more hardcore than ron paul has you know yeah and so it just takes time how many bitcoiners will still say today oh i a Ron Paul supporter You know Dude I went back I watched that video last week 1544 01:59:52,527 --> 01:59:53,767 the exact one you're talking about, 1545 01:59:53,827 --> 01:59:57,647 the 80s Donahue thing and his Congress speeches. 1546 01:59:57,647 --> 02:00:00,647 And I was like, man, I feel so guilty 1547 02:00:00,647 --> 02:00:02,247 of being one of those guys 1548 02:00:02,247 --> 02:00:04,567 that just dismissed him for being a freak. 1549 02:00:04,707 --> 02:00:08,127 Now, everything I watch from him is so right. 1550 02:00:09,187 --> 02:00:11,087 It's so freaking correct. 1551 02:00:11,087 --> 02:00:17,127 It's amazing how sensible and clear he could explain things to. 1552 02:00:17,267 --> 02:00:17,987 He just had a way. 1553 02:00:18,387 --> 02:00:18,947 He was great. 1554 02:00:19,367 --> 02:00:20,207 It's weird, man. 1555 02:00:20,387 --> 02:00:23,487 It's weird because when I was learning a lot of this stuff, 1556 02:00:23,567 --> 02:00:25,307 Ron Paul did not do it for me. 1557 02:00:25,907 --> 02:00:26,247 No. 1558 02:00:26,747 --> 02:00:30,647 I had to learn it through Milton Friedman and Thomas Sow 1559 02:00:30,647 --> 02:00:34,967 and people that were very, like Thomas Sow and Milton Friedman 1560 02:00:34,967 --> 02:00:37,267 are much, much better speakers than Ron Paul. 1561 02:00:37,267 --> 02:00:39,347 Ron Paul always sounds kind of bumbly. 1562 02:00:39,347 --> 02:00:45,447 he's right when he's right and his message is actually fairly clear but he kind of bumbles 1563 02:00:45,447 --> 02:00:50,987 around about it like he's not he's not as easy to listen to and this was the same thing i had i had 1564 02:00:50,987 --> 02:00:56,787 a friend that would always try to get me to listen to rothbard and i did not have any respect for 1565 02:00:56,787 --> 02:01:02,587 rothbard until after i understood everything else you know that then rothbard was very hard to listen 1566 02:01:02,587 --> 02:01:10,627 to um he's very nasally you know very like it just he was just much more difficult to um to to 1567 02:01:10,627 --> 02:01:16,727 hear there's some amount of stuff like it's painful to hear things that you don't already agree with 1568 02:01:16,727 --> 02:01:21,967 and so there's an amount of like can you handle the pain of this thing you don't already agree 1569 02:01:21,967 --> 02:01:27,727 with plus the slightly annoying thing in this guy's voice and yeah yeah like there's multiple 1570 02:01:27,727 --> 02:01:33,447 factors and um and the thing is it's different for everybody too like there's some people that 1571 02:01:33,447 --> 02:01:38,947 might not like listening to you know like i mean i would say somebody with like a voice like thomas 1572 02:01:38,947 --> 02:01:44,827 is easier to listen to just in general but but there it is really different for different people 1573 02:01:44,827 --> 02:01:49,327 so you like i've tried to explain to people that you need stepping stones you need people that are 1574 02:01:49,327 --> 02:01:56,427 closer to wherever a person is to help them get there because you can't go you cannot go from 1575 02:01:56,427 --> 02:01:58,687 MAGA supporter to Rothbard 1576 02:01:58,687 --> 02:02:00,227 in one go. 1577 02:02:00,407 --> 02:02:01,867 I don't think that's a thing. 1578 02:02:02,667 --> 02:02:04,527 I had to go through Bitcoin to get 1579 02:02:04,527 --> 02:02:05,187 the Ron Paul. 1580 02:02:05,807 --> 02:02:08,807 I would never have gotten there if it went for Bitcoin. 1581 02:02:09,567 --> 02:02:09,727 Yeah. 1582 02:02:10,827 --> 02:02:12,647 Well, that's a good 1583 02:02:12,647 --> 02:02:14,627 note to end this on, I think. I gotta wrap 1584

02:02:14,627 --> 02:02:16,667 up. Got some things to do. Thank you 1585 02:02:16,667 --> 02:02:17,747 guys for joining us. 1586 02:02:18,567 --> 02:02:20,947 Wrap Bitcoin on Coinbase. 1587 02:02:21,227 --> 02:02:22,187 Wrap Bitcoin on Coinbase. 1588 02:02:23,047 --> 02:02:24,007 That's the way. 1589 02:02:24,007 --> 02:02:27,367 hey all coinbase is paper 1590 02:02:27,367 --> 02:02:29,587 wrapped bitcoin is better paper 1591 02:02:29,587 --> 02:02:31,047 than coinbase paper 1592 02:02:31,047 --> 02:02:32,627 and 21 and 6 bug 1593 02:02:32,627 --> 02:02:33,627 don't forget 1594 02:02:33,627 --> 02:02:36,027 better paper 1595 02:02:36,027 --> 02:02:37,507 oh god 1596 02:02:37,507 --> 02:02:40,987 I'm still all for withdrawal day 1597 02:02:40,987 --> 02:02:42,707 what is it called proof of coins day 1598 02:02:42,707 --> 02:02:43,647 what do we call it 1599 02:02:43,647 --> 02:02:44,647 proof of keys day 1600 02:02:44,647 --> 02:02:47,027 and that one includes wrapped bitcoin 1601 02:02:47,027 --> 02:02:49,187 withdraw it to your base bitcoin 1602 02:02:49,187 --> 02:02:50,247 that's fine 1603 02:02:50,247 --> 02:02:52,967 we can include that in there 1604 02:02:52,967 --> 02:02:53,747 alright guys 1605 02:02:53,747 --> 02:02:58,307 uh all right guys you guys later later later 1606 02:02:58,307 --> 02:03:11,787 that will wrap us up a farewell to mechanic on the round table and uh if you guys actually have 1607 02:03:11,787 --> 02:03:20,267 any suggestions to the semi-permanent fourth person that we want on the show uh i would love 1608 02:03:20,267 --> 02:03:21,867 to actually take suggestions. 1609 02:03:22,147 --> 02:03:24,047 I'll be reaching out to a number of people 1610 02:03:24,047 --> 02:03:25,287 just to see who's interested. 1611 02:03:26,127 --> 02:03:28,527 And I want to keep this show fun 1612 02:03:28,527 --> 02:03:31,127 and I want to keep talking about all this stuff 1613 02:03:31,127 --> 02:03:34,567 and covering any issues or questions you guys have. 1614 02:03:35,047 --> 02:03:36,607 And I wanted to be a good group 1615 02:03:36,607 --> 02:03:37,967 that has experience, 1616 02:03:38,327 --> 02:03:41,207 that is willing to speak their mind 1617 02:03:41,207 --> 02:03:45,347 even when maybe it costs them a lot. 1618 02:03:45,347 --> 02:03:48,187 And I always have appreciated Mechanic 1619 02:03:48,187 --> 02:03:51,247 and his candidness. 1620 02:03:51,707 --> 02:03:52,927 So let me know what you guys think. 1621 02:03:53,107 --> 02:03:55,607 Do not forget, if you've got an older version of the BitBox, 1622 02:03:56,287 --> 02:03:59,947 do not forget to get the DickSense upgrade. 1623 02:04:00,227 --> 02:04:01,947 That sounds the DickSense. 1624 02:04:02,287 --> 02:04:03,027 DickSense. 1625 02:04:05,367 --> 02:04:06,847 BitBox guy's going to be mad at that one. 1626 02:04:08,227 --> 02:04:09,467 BitBox, put it in your butt. 1627 02:04:09,647 --> 02:04:10,727 Get the DickSense upgrade. 1628 02:04:12,827 --> 02:04:15,267 Anyway, get the update to the firmware 1629 02:04:15,267 --> 02:04:18,167 to cover that USB bug. 1630 02:04:18,287 --> 02:04:20,367 There's also a much less severe 1631 02:04:20,367 --> 02:04:22,507 but other little side bug 1632 02:04:22,507 --> 02:04:24,947 that we will be covering in the issue 1633 02:04:24,947 --> 02:04:26,867 or the guy's take where I go over 1634 02:04:26,867 --> 02:04:28,087 a lot of the red teaming 1635 02:04:28,087 --> 02:04:31,647 in addition to the hacks from Trezor and Ledger. 1636 02:04:31,987 --> 02:04:34,327 Also, these are not entropy bug hacks 1637 02:04:34,327 --> 02:04:36,847 like cold card, nothing to worry about there. 1638 02:04:36,967 --> 02:04:39,127 These are like email hacks 1639 02:04:39,127 --> 02:04:43,107 and software hacks, all of these sorts of things. 1640 02:04:43,107 --> 02:04:48,907 There's a lot of layers on top of a lot of these things that are getting hit. 1641 02:04:48,907 --> 02:04:54,347 Actually the list is quite long of everything there is to go to, which is partially very 1642 02:04:54,347 --> 02:04:59,927 reassuring, but also kind of scary because there's core lightning. 1643 02:04:59,990 --> 02:05:01,850 There's, I think there was an L and D one. 1644 02:05:01,930 --> 02:05:03,090 There's BTC pay server. 1645 02:05:03,190 --> 02:05:04,470 Like we had a lot to go through. 1646 02:05:04,610 --> 02:05:06,450 So that's why we're dedicating an episode to it. 1647 02:05:06,510 --> 02:05:07,390 So stay tuned to that. 1648 02:05:07,490 --> 02:05:11,190 Do not forget to subscribe to the guys take YouTube channel. 1649 02:05:11,650 --> 02:05:13,770 That's G U Y S T A K E. 1650 02:05:14,250 --> 02:05:15,750 And this is our newer channel, 1651 02:05:15,750 --> 02:05:19,190 which we are trying to get off the ground and still bootstrapping. 1652 02:05:19,390 --> 02:05:20,730 So any subscription, 1653 02:05:21,090 --> 02:05:25,810 and then also this a huge and incredibly easy way to help out the show. 1654 02:05:25,890 --> 02:05:28,810 And you obviously you get more of our wonderful content, 1655 02:05:28,810 --> 02:05:36,390 which how could you not want that and uh you could do it right now and then of course share 1656 02:05:36,390 --> 02:05:43,250 it out with everybody you know um follow me on twitter as well as a simple steve or steve uses 1657 02:05:43,250 --> 02:05:47,910 yeah simple steve and jeff and all the crew and i will catch you guys on the next episode 1658 02:05:47,910 --> 02:05:53,350 this is bitcoin audible i am guy swan and that is our two sets 1659 02:05:58,810 --> 02:06:28,790 We'll see you next time.