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than I do. I don't know anything about the music industry. If I just kind of write on their coattails, they didn't know anything. Like I I didn't know that until afterward. Dr. Leslie Davis: Right. -+: And so, you know, I was in a I was also in an all female alternative rock band, like very much like early two thousands, like nickel back. kind of style of of you know creed that kind of thing like a like all female crossover band and it just it wasn't me like I'm a classical singer I sing Broadway I sing I'm a singer songwriter like none of that fit me but I just thought well they must know better than I do like they've got a logo and they've got their colors and they you know so Dr. Leslie Davis: Mm-hmm. -+: I was just doing a lot of that in the early years. And then when I had my daughter when I was thirty, almost thirty one, and like in the f within the first year there was just a lot of struggle as far as like I had a lot of health challenges. I have an autoimmune disease that kind of popped up when I turned about twenty nine and it got really bad after I had my daughter, because of, you know, hormone changes and all that. And then work was very stressful because when you work at an opera company, it's so feast or famine. It's like, my gosh, we're getting millions of dollars of annual subscriptions in January and then by the summer you don't have enough money to pay the payroll. So it was just a lot of stress. And I was trying to do that while having a one year old and trying to figure out all the babysitting stuff and trading off with my husband and finding a babysitter that wasn't reliable reliable and all this stuff. also still wanting to do music. And so finally I came to this breaking point where it was just this random thing where like there was this open house down the street from me. And I walked down there and I was like, wait, wait, wait, what? How much are you selling this house for? I was Dr. Leslie Davis: Hahaha! -+: like, this house isn't even as good as mine. Like mine was the model. Dr. Leslie Davis: Thank -+: And so I was like, maybe I could sell my house and like get myself out of a job for a while so I could regroup and take care of my daughter and not have to stress about babysitting and not just have to stress Dr. Leslie Davis: Mm-hmm. -+: about whether I can make the payroll for the opera and, you know, and just kind of figure out what the next chapter looked like. And so yeah, we basically our house basically doubled value in three years, which is kind of the story of Orange County, California in the early two mid two thousands. So that really Helped me a lot because it it gave me kind of this time period where I could figure things out. I could decide have the space to like also figure out myself on the music side. Like figure out, okay, can I have a personal brand? Do I feel like I'm enough? Because I was just like I always felt like I wasn't enough on my own. Dr. Leslie Davis: Mm. -+: Do this. I thought I couldn't play and sing at the same time. I had all these like imposter syndrome situations going on. And it just gave me the space to figure myself out and and be like, well, maybe my music career is not gonna be exactly what I thought it was gonna be when I was in my twenties. But that's okay. Like all I really want to do is do music. And if it's just doing local churches. I'd be happy with that. You know, singing Dr. Leslie Davis: Mm-hmm. -+: my own songs at local churches. That would make me happy. And so like when I downsized that, and I also had built my own band at this time, but they all had day jobs. They were great. Like I loved them, they loved my music, they were totally a hundred percent behind what I was doing, and we were performing some, but it was all weekend gigs. And I'm like, But what if I want to tour? You know? Dr. Leslie Davis: Right. -+: Now that I don't work full time, what if I want a tour? And so I just had to like grind it out, figure out how am I going to play and sing at the same time. I've I've had this belief all my life that I couldn't do it, even though I could play piano but I had never done it in front of people playing and singing. And I just thought it was something I could never coordinate. But I just said, Look, if I want to tour I have to do this. I have to be a nimble Dr. Leslie Davis: Mm-hmm. -+: To be able to take gigs. And so I figured it out and basically just practicing every single day. And my poor two year old had to listen to that. and and did my first studio album at that point when I had a two year old, and then I started touring. I just started booking gigs, and it all really started with me deciding like I'm gonna book gigs that. I can bring a two year old too. So Dr. Leslie Davis: Yes. -+: I was involved in this group called Mothers of Preschoolers. because it was it was a place where I could go and get a break and have babysitting and they always had a they had a program and I'm like one time this singer songwriter came and she presented this program. I was like, I could do that. And then I figured out Dr. Leslie Davis: Yes. -+: that the group was a national international group and there were mothers of preschoolers everywhere. And so that was the backbone of my initial touring was I'm just gonna do every mothers of preschoolers in California. Dr. Leslie Davis: That is a great angle though, because you can take your two year old. It's like really bridges that gap between our thoughts of what it's supposed to be and what's real to do what you love. I love that you reframed that. How did you get there? -+: well I had when I had seen this person come to Mothers or Preschoolers and I realized okay, well she's not just singing. Like she didn't just come in and be like, I'm a musician, do you want me to come do some music? They would have said, No, we need a program. So I'm like, I need a program. So what I decided to do was create what eventually I understood to be a keynote concert. I didn't know back

then. I was just like, well, it's telling stories and and singing my songs and doing some stories related to the songs that I wrote and putting them together in a way that makes sense, that kind of tells the story of my life, but also like encourages people because I grew up with glaucoma. So My stories were about, you know, just the struggles of growing up with glaucoma and like a bunch of redemption moments and and things that were really relatable to people like getting my first job and stuff like that, but also things that were relatable to people that were dealing with major struggles in their lives. they didn't necessarily have to have glaucoma. but just seeing that perseverance and and how that played out. And all my songs were written around that, right? 'Cause they're written from personal life. And so I just built this program. And so instead of like, hey, come hire me as a singer, which they don't understand. Like they're like, why would I do that? But I'm like, I I know you have these programs that you need to have in in I have this program that's gonna inspire people. It's about hope. It's about, you know, deliverance, it's about dealing with struggle and redemption and all that and also, you know, mothers of preschoolers are held at churches. they have a side that is spiritual and so I could offer that as well, but it wasn't like super hard hitting because there are many people there that aren't churchgoers. And so I could show them that angle and be like and I've got music in here so it's also entertaining. The stories are entertaining and I just was able to explain that in a way and they're like, yeah, done, sold. I also had I created a Christmas version of it because I had a Christmas album that came out in twenty eleven. I also had some stories about my mom, you know, growing up with my mom. So it was perfect for the mothers of preschoolers. And then, you know, when I would book these I would say to them, Here's my fee, and they'd be like, Well, it's a little high for us, you know, like we collect dues and everything. And I'm like, Well, let me how about this? There's one, you know, another mother's a preschoolers in the next town over. Do you know those people? Could you introduce me to them and I'll take fifty dollars off your fee? And they're like, yeah, I do know those people. Like we go to these regional meetings or whatever. And so that's how I booked tours is I would just kind of web them together and then I'd fill them in by booking churches and retreats and community organizations and women's groups like National Federation of Women's Groups, they need programs. And then I got into being a speaker for the Christian Women's Connection and then I'd fill those in because those were daytime lunch gigs a lot of the time. And so that's kind of How I built my music career. Dr. Leslie Davis: I love that so much how you reframed it. I have never thought of building a program around my music. I think about doing the story behind

the song and how you engage the audience with your story and you're teaching them and you're engaging. But to actually create a program. and your music supports that program is really, how did you come up with that idea? Did the Lord just drop it in your spirit or did you see it happen? -+: I think I just saw this one girl doing it and I'm like, this makes so much sense. And I I couldn't put Dr. Leslie Davis: So cool. -+: words around why it worked then, but I certainly can now. And I talk about it a lot because music is very difficult to market on its own. But if you've got a program, you've got like this this container, this thing that you can talk about. It solves their problem. It's like we have 45-minute slot here that we need something that's gonna entertain and inspire people. What can we do? And if you're a musician and you're coming in and saying, Well, I can do some music for you, they don't see the value in that. Even though that is super valuable, they can't see the value in the way that you're describing it. But if you can give them this finite thing, this basically this product. Okay, this is gonna solve the problem that you have. They're like, bring it on. Like, I yeah, thank you. Like, solved. And so that's kind of what I figured out. Like, and then I would kind of create versions of it. So, like, I would also do they always had a tea at Mothers or Preschoolers for May. It's like the last one, and it was honoring mothers and all that. And so I would be like, This is the perfect thing for your tea. I couldn't always do that because then I'd like book myself solid in May and I wouldn't have any other ones. So I'd have to kinda Dr. Leslie Davis: Hahaha -+: the angle, you know, like this would be really good for Valentine's Day or whatever. Like I I can start it with a love song. You know, I can I would alter it and then I just started creating these other programs that solved those problems. You know, I've got a program around Valentine's Day and, you know, all these love songs through the ages and then I could tell some stories about You know, when my husband proposed to me or whatever, and then I had the Christmas one and then I ended up I sang the National Anthem at Dodger Stadium and so people started asking me to like come to these events and sing the national anthem and I'm like, how about I just build a program around this that's for Fourth of July and so then I, learned a few other America songs and then I would present that in July. And so It would also allow me to fill my calendar easily because I would have all these these pillars of like, I can book this thing here, I can book this thing here. And then I had my like general program, which was about my personal life, I could book any time. And and then I could come back. Like it's like I do my personal program and then I call them the next year and like, hey, how about I come for Christmas? You know? And so I think what I realized is number one. this thing solved a problem

for them. It was so much easier to market than just for me to be like, I'm a musician, you know, and they just didn't see the value, even though of course there is, like, but they don't see it. And then I realized, well, guess what? If I have a program and it's this particular program, it's called You Are My Vision, right? It or it's my Christmas program and it's called Gift Beneath the Star. Like no one else offers that except me. So now I'm not being compared to all these other musicians or all these other people that are bringing in a program, even, because my program is my program. And it puts me in a category of one. And that's Dr. Leslie Davis: Mmm. -+: kind of what I've been talking about a lot lately. It's like if you can put yourself in a category of one, then you're the only one that offers that thing. And if they want that thing, they have to come to you. Versus fighting against millions of musicians and now also millions of AI artists on places like Spotify Dr. Leslie Davis: Mm-hmm. -+: we're bringing our music into rooms and we're getting it in front of people in kind of an end run kind of way. Dr. Leslie Davis: Awesome. So for your program, that you like you have the name of your program and then you built out the program. Does it always have the same songs and you just present it in different places or do you shift it? Like I know worship sets, it's kind of different wherever you go and for whatever you're doing it for. unless you're doing your album. How does that work? And then I love this category of one idea and I'd love for you to talk about that too. -+: Yeah, I mean I didn't do a lot of worship sets. Sometimes I would sometimes I would do a set of worship songs. Like if I was doing a church, let's say. Like I've done, you know, like a a big singles group at a church or a big women's group. I would do a set of worship songs and then I would do like an abridged version. I'd pick like two stories or something from my program and I would do that in my original songs. if they wanted the worship set or if I was doing like a women's retreat, I'd do worship sets and then I'd also do my full program, like one of the evenings or something. but I was just changing it around. Like I could change it around based upon what I needed. if I only had thirty minutes, I'd just pull a story out, pull out one story and one song or something. when I was doing like the Christmas and obviously that's a completely different program. And so I just started building each one of those separately. The one thing I say to artists, like, don't try to build these all at once. Build one, get it going, you know, and then and you've got the thing and you're really good at delivering it. You could deliver it in your sleep. because I got to the point where I was completely off book. Like, could just get up there and do it. because I was doing it all the time, because I was I was touring. I would just build these other programs based upon the needs that I saw, or like, I wanna go back to this place. I love these people, but I can't deliver the same program. So I'd come up with another idea. And and then as far as like the the category of one thing, like it doesn't have to be I know I'm talking about a keynote concert, right? I believe you can make yourself a category of one with themed programs too. So if I had never had my keynote, which is really my own personal story, if I had just come up with Gift Beneath the Star, which is basically my Christmas album with scriptures in between. You know, telling the Christmas story through scripture and then my songs. Like anyone can do that. I didn't even have to come up with script. Or you could do it, you know, with like a historical kind of thing if you wanted. Or, you know, maybe you wanted to do like the history of Broadway music. Let's say you did Broadway stuff. And other people aren't doing that program, right? You came up with it. It has your angle. You chose the stories. You chose the songs, all of that. So I think anyone can come up with these based upon what it is that they love to do and what they love to sing and you can come up with it based upon your own original music or you can do it based around covers. It's absolutely it's still your thing. It's still your intellectual property. And that's what makes it a category of one, right? But it doesn't have to be even a live program. Like these are I think the best ways to build a fan base and connect with people. Like to me it's 10x faster to connect with people in a live setting. But if you don't want to do that, you can still put yourself in a category of one by doing something like having a Substack. Like if you love to write, then be a thought leader on Substack. And, you know, then maybe you share your music with that audience. You build that audience up around a topic, let's say, that you love to talk about, and you just happen to write music around that too sometimes. And then you share music with them, and that's a way to connect with them. Or let's say that you're more of a teacher and you love to teach workshops on things. And let's just say you're a you're an instrumental teacher, right? So you teach workshops on your instrument, you teach workshops about music theory and that kind of stuff on your instrument, and then you can share your songs with them too. But you've built up this audience around the thing that you're good at and the thing that only you provide, because your workshops, you're the only one that does it the way you do it. you know, if you could be a YouTuber, right? And you deliver a very particular thing that no one else delivers on YouTube and you build up your own audience that way. And then you also share your music with them or a podcaster, you know. the thing is I've done all these things over the years. I didn't do them all at the same time, you know. I didn't Dr. Leslie Davis: Mmm. -+: write my book in the same year that I started my podcast, that I was building my

membership, you know, like those all happened at a little bit different increments because you gotta focus on the one thing that you're making awesome, that you're kind of hanging your hat on as a category of one artist, and then you can move on to the next thing. The thing with artists is, and you know this, we have so many ideas and so many things that we want to do and we just we envision this like empire of things that we've created. And Dr. Leslie Davis: Ha -+: then it can really overwhelm us. It can paralyze us because we want to do them all at the same time or we want to You know, we we wanna s we wanna see the whole thing at one time. And Dr. Leslie Davis: Mm-hmm. -+: then we just don't we're like, well I'm gonna build a little over here, a little over here, a little over here, and then they're all gonna be done. No. Build one thing. Make it really, really successful, then build another thing. Dr. Leslie Davis: I love that. I was just reading in one of the analog newsletters that I subscribed to, and it's a lot about marketing and using your voice in a very different way than I teach. But one of the things about it was like building your own land and having like little worlds in, yes, -+: world building. I love that. Dr. Leslie Davis: world building. And so this is what I've been doing is building my little world and it gives you permission to have all of those pieces and all of those parts, but really building out one little section of the world at a time. Like you were saying, focus on your book. Do the book, get it out there, do the thing. And I've been guilty. I did my book and my podcast kind of simultaneously and that was a lot. And I had to push dates back and things like that because of a divided focus. So as you bring it back into the one focus, your book and then your podcast, Or then your program. I love the idea of putting together a program that's like a keynote concert or a keynote story. Something that you have practiced and you're prepared with and you could do in your sleep. Bringing that forward and then expanding from there and building out your world. And that's so cool that you're talking about that. And I was just studying that this weekend about the world building aspect of things and drawing it out so you have the overall plan. and you know there's a space for that. So you're not letting it go necessarily, but you're putting it in the parking lot. You're putting it over here in the idea land while you're developing the one thing. -+: That's right. I mean you're building a complex. Let's say you're building, you know, a whole complex of buildings, but you're not building them all at the same time. You're building one and then let's build this one over here and that's what you know, but you have a plan, right, in your mind. I I would I wanna say like talking about trying to do all of them at once, like I see musicians do this all the time with their releases. They'll be like, I need to release my song and my video on

the same day. I'm like, why would you do that? You you're like dividing your audience. Like, release your song, drive everybody to that place that you released your song. And you can even like extend this, right? So maybe you release your song first on your website or on Bandcamp and you drive all of your super fans there and you get them to actually pay you a little bit for it, because they're the only ones getting access for it. Then maybe you release it on YouTube and then people can listen to it there and then you release it on Spotify. And then, you know, maybe a few months later you release the video and then you have a whole nother to-do around that. Dr. Leslie Davis: Yes, I -+: you really are dividing their attention if you're like, Well, you could go watch the video here or you could go listen to it on you want them to do all those things. Dr. Leslie Davis: I like that because our music has a YouTube, we have a YouTube channel called Life Laid Down and whenever I did my release strategy, that's what we did, but I think I did release like a video with it and I'm thinking, wow, if I had known that, but what I did do is like do different types of videos and then shorts out of the video and try to really drive traffic to the video for a while and that's... -+: And that's smart. And like also you were like YouTube first, so that made a little more sense for you. Most people are not. Dr. Leslie Davis: Okay. -+: Right? So if they're, goal is to get people to follow and listen on Spotify or buy their music. And the video is supposed to somehow help with that. It really isn't. It's a distraction if it's happening at the same time. Dr. Leslie Davis: That's great advice. Awesome. So what would you say to someone who is where you were? You know, I know as older women in the music industry, there's a lot of limiting beliefs around that. And -+: Okay. Dr. Leslie Davis: you have overcome that and I have been working to overcome that as well. And now here we are, like doing it anyway in our 40s and our 50s and beyond and really able to make the impact that we were created to make because the limiting beliefs have started to shift. What do you say to that? -+: I say you that number one, you have to resize your career in your mind. Like I was saying earlier, I had this idea of what I wanted it to look like when I was in my twenties. And when I got into my thirties and I already had a child, I was like I need to like mourn the death of that of that Dr. Leslie Davis: Yeah. -+: idea, you know, and and realize that that's fine. Like and actually after I did that, I was like, you know what? I didn't even want that. Like once I realized, because I was more mature, and I'm like, would I really want to be like performing all over the world? No, I I kind of wouldn't. but you just have these ideas of what you want, Dr. Leslie Davis: Mm-hmm. -+: and then it's like you hang on to them for dear life. And so I think it's you have to put that down and you have to be like, Okay, well, what would be enough? To make me feel like I had success and I was happy, and I was still doing music. And for me, that was the thing. It was like if I was just singing at weddings and funerals, at that point, as long as I was doing music, because I wasn't doing it at that point, I would be happy. And I'm like, okay, like that's like not a huge goal, but that's enough for me. And then I had a lot more goals beyond that, but like I realized if that was all it was, it was or if all I was doing was recording sessions, because I was recording as a session singer too, sometimes at home. So I had learned to produce my stuff. And I'm like, if that's all I was doing and getting paid for it, I'd be happy with that. And so once I kind of set those bars, and I'm not saying I'm setting them low, I'm just saying like it it was my baseline. Right, of what would make me feel like I was still really doing music, even though I'm raising a two year old. And also still working at the opera, by the way, because I exited, but I was able to execute still having a part time job there working from home, which was like unheard of back in two thousand four when I did it, or two thousand five, because nobody was doing that back then. and so I was just like, okay, what would make me happy? And then I just pursued that. And then, you know, when I reached that, I'm like, well, let's how much further can we go? And that kind of thing. And it was also just having gone through those bad experiences with the bands, like at that point, like knowing what you don't want. It's kind of like when you date a lot of people and you're like, I know exactly what I don't want in a husband. That's where I was. I was like, okay, I don't want this. I you know, I'm not willing to do this, I'm not willing to do this. what can I do that fits who I actually am? And that was a third thing is like being honest with myself about who I am as a musician and what I'm naturally good at. I may have loved listening to, alternative rock. kind of music, but that's not me. Like that's not Dr. Leslie Davis: right. -+: what I write. I love Sarah Borellis and Sarah McLaughlin and people like that, but I don't naturally write like that. So Dr. Leslie Davis: Mm-hmm. -+: even though I want to be that, that's not what it comes out. And I had to Dr. Leslie Davis: Hahaha! -+: be okay with that. I'm Dr. Leslie Davis: you -+: more influenced by you know other styles when I write Even though I love these other things, I just don't write that way. And I have to be okay with that. And I have to be happy with what I am writing. Because I think what I am at writing is still good. It's just maybe not what I had thought I wanted to write because of the people that I that I looked up to. And so ca that was kind of another there's just like all these like min mini Dr. Leslie Davis: I love how you... Yeah. -+: deaths of the artist, you know. And then realizing but like, okay, I I'm I'm fine, like it's it's not

I'm not any of these things, but I can still be happy with what it is and then I could build on that. So then I was building a lot of other skills, like my speaking skills and and stuff like that, and my recording skills and all that stuff. And so I felt like I'm still like really excelling here in the things that I'm naturally good at. Dr. Leslie Davis: awesome. I love how you point out like the surrender in it to find your authentic voice. There's surrenders along the way and a lot of times we a lot of times -+: much as a rental. Dr. Leslie Davis: you know like you know scripture talks about in 2nd Corinthians Paul talks about going from glory to glory and we were talking about this in my authentic authority lab group the other day and how we get to go from glory to glory, but within a glory season, there is the exit from Egypt out of slavery, which is part of the surrender. And then there's the wilderness season. And then there's the promise. And then you get to do it again and then again. And so there's glory in each of those seasons of surrender. And I love how you say, well, it's not like I was setting the bar low, but I was setting it to something that was realistic. that was success for me and you chose that. And I love the power that comes in of choosing and of surrender so that you can feel successful in doing what exactly you want to be doing, even if it looks a little different than you ultimately want it to. So having the big picture vision, but these little visions along the way that keep you encouraged. -+: Yeah, and I think the biggest thing is just I didn't want to feel like my God given talent was wasted. And that was the r the thing that bothered me constantly. It's like I know first of all I went to school for music, but like I know that I have talents in this area. And if if I don't use them, I feel like I'm wasting them. So it became less about like I wanna become famous to I just wanna feel like I'm Living my purpose. Dr. Leslie Davis: Yes, and you're stewarding your purpose well. -+: Yeah, and that became crystallized when I got really sick. my daughter was seven months. I ended up in the hospital with my autoimmune disease, like really sick. And it's one of those rock bottom moments where it's like, I surrender. if I can actually keep food down and make it out of here, this is the direction I wanna go. And I think that does kind of help sometimes to like hit one of those points and it sucks that we have to actually go through those sometimes to actually get to the point where we surrender. But sometimes that's part of the journey. Dr. Leslie Davis: Yes, I love that. And I love how you were talking about, you you had to mourn it and you allowed yourself to do that. And I think a lot of times we try to stuff that down and it becomes this disappointment instead of something that we can surrender, let go, mourn, and then actually find the thing that we really want. And you said, you said, I don't even really know if I want that anymore. After I laid it down, you realize that's not even, that's not even actually my dream. This was like a dream that I thought I wanted when I was 20. And here I am. in this situation in my life right now, and how did you frame that for yourself? more or so, how would you help somebody else in the place where you were to overcome that faster? -+: Yeah, I mean one major thing that happened to me is that when I became a mom, I was like, Okay, like I'm not a musician anymore, I'm a mom. Like this is my job. Right. And I had this in my head. And so like I was like, okay, I I have to give this thing up because it was this all consuming thing that right before I had my daughter and like while she was even in the womb, like I was recording all this music, I was writing all this music, I was doing session work for people. And I was very prolific. And then once I had her, I'm like, okay, I'm done. Like I that was my that season. Now it's the mom season. And that lasted about six weeks. And then I'm just like, I don't even know who I am without music. You know, I realized that. And it was gonna be a detriment to my daughter if I tried to just shut that other part of me out and be like, now I'm a mom because I would be miserable. And then I'd be resenting her because she made me do it, you know. indirectly, right? I chose to do it. But I realized that that was not gonna work for me. And so I think that would be one thing I would say to people, like, you can balance it. Don't think that you have to only be one thing or another thing. You can balance it. It's not easy, I'll tell you that, because then I had to learn how to tour with a two-year-old. Dr. Leslie Davis: Mm-hmm. -+: But it's it's definitely doable. And so I would say really search your heart and realize if there's this thing that's just gnawing at you daily, but you keep pushing it down because you're like, that season has passed or I don't have the right to do this. I have to put everyone else's needs ahead of mine. If you're doing that, you're not really putting other people's needs ahead of yours because you're not gonna be the full person that you need to be for those people if you're constantly holding on to that thing in the background and you've got this like little resentment, even though you don't maybe realize that you have it. And so I mean just always like that whole thing about the put on your own oxygen mask first. I just think that if you are fully engaged in all the things that you are in some way, you're going to be a much better servant for those people that you're trying to serve at that time, whether it's your husband or your kids or your other job or whatever it is. You know, you you don't want to hold on to that resentment. It's just gonna make you be not a good partner with them. Dr. Leslie Davis: I love that you're bringing this up because as a mom who's in music and taking my kids with me to Gigs and things like that is so actually so much fun for them they get

to grow up in an atmosphere that we probably dreamed of growing up in and it plants seeds for them to dream and so Realizing when your daughter was little that this is not a complete change in a season, but instead a merging of a new one and finding who I am within this new season. And you can bring everything that you are and you can leave behind what you want to and you can bring what you want to. And I remember as a young person and my mom was a, my mom was a beautiful musician and just had a great voice and she would sing and go play with the bands and things like that. But then once she would tell me, she was like, well, I have kids. I don't. need to do that anymore. And I was like, come on. I remember, I remember going with her to Nashville to pitch a song that she had and one no, she never, she didn't try again. And then she told -+: I mean. Dr. Leslie Davis: me, she told me that she chose not to, that she, helped her realize what she wanted in life, which I believe her. But it also made me realize that when it was time for me to go for my dreams, that my kids would not be an excuse. that it was important to remember that the way that I live my life inspires my kids first. Because if we're out there trying to change the world, but we're not here changing our world, then what are we doing it for? -+: Yep. Yeah, I totally agree. Dr. Leslie Davis: Well, I just love this conversation so much and how I've learned a lot from you today, especially about building the program and pitching your music from that perspective. I think that relates not just to music and musicians, but to people who want to be keynote speakers and people who want to teach and coach. You need to have your core concept that you're taking to the world, something that represents your voice and the impact that you want to make in the world. And I love how you bring these things out. Where can people find you if they want to know more about profitable musician or any of your other programs that you have? -+: Yes, I created a tongue twister. No one can say profitable musician. It's funny. Every single show I'm Dr. Leslie Davis: Profitable. -+: on. yeah, yeah. So after all this stuff that I did for myself, like I started helping other artists as well. And I started my podcast in 2015. it's been 11 years. So Profitable Musician Show is the podcast. I have a community for female artists, especially female artists over 40. Called the Female Musician Accelerator. And so I I think if you're listening to this, go listen to the podcast and you'll get to experience me more in helping musicians learn how to make a living from music, which is our ultimate goal, I think, because then we can just make more music. So I mean, my thought is like even if you're a hobby artist, you need to make money in order to make more music because it's not the cheapest hobby in the world. Dr. Leslie Davis: No, and that's probably why they call it the starving musician is because it costs so much to do, but nobody really knows unless they dig in and find it what it really takes to make it. And I love that you have something that we can listen to and know that you've done it. It is possible. -+: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's why I'm helping artists to kind of create their own lane, right? So they can they can stand out amongst the sea of musicians and then be able to build like we don't need the masses. We need like our one thousand true fans to to to have a career as a musician. That's all we need. And I that's so encouraging to me, right? Dr. Leslie Davis: Yes, when I first heard that concept of a thousand true fans, I was like, this is so much more doable than what I thought. -+: Yes. Dr. Leslie Davis: We have this cultural perspective of what it looks like to be a professional singer or musician or to be successful in the music industry. And what we don't realize most of the time until we get deeper into it, is that there's so many successful musicians you may not know who they are. -+: Yep. yeah, I know. All the time. All you you hear stuff on movies and TV shows and you're like, I've never heard of this person. And then, you know, you find out they have all these sync placements and they're, you know, they have this whole career you've never heard of them. Dr. Leslie Davis: Mm-hmm. -+: So you never know. I would definitely also say, if you're interested in kind of figuring out your category of one, just reach out to me on Instagram, Profitable Musician LLC is my handle, and just DM me and I'll send you some information on that. Dr. Leslie Davis: That's awesome. Goodness, Brie, thank you so much for taking the time with us today. You've just gone pretty deep. And I think that people are going to take away some really good nuggets from this time together. And I really appreciate you. -+: You are welcome. It was great having the other side of our conversation after we talked on my podcast. Dr. Leslie Davis: Yes, yes, and you can go to her podcast and hear a different angle of the conversation over there. Awesome. Profitable Musician Show. -+: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, just look up Profitable Musician in any podcast app and you'll find it. Dr. Leslie Davis: Perfect. Well, thank you. Is there anything that you want -+: Thank you. Dr. Leslie Davis: to add before we wrap up? -+: I think, you know, I always kind of for my last my last nugget, I think that the biggest thing that helped me build my career beyond what I already talked about is having a community of people doing the same thing. and so, you know, when I saw that girl doing what I wanted to do, I said, Hey, like, how are you doing this? And then she's like, you should become a part of this community that, you know, where a bunch of female indie Christian musicians that are doing the same thing. And so I did, and that was a huge catalyst for me because I wasn't doing it alone. I was learning from them. I was cutting the learning curve a lot. and so that's why I created a community for women because that was the biggest game changer for me beyond what I already talked about, creating programs and stuff. And so if you're a musician, a creative, an artist, whatever you're doing, like find a community of like minded people and do it together. As that is gonna make it's gonna do so much for you. It's gonna help you celebrate when things go well and realize what you should celebrate and like bring you up when things suck and you know give you new ideas and all of that stuff. So just find a community, whether it's online or local. Dr. Leslie Davis: I love that community is key, I say, in every aspect in business building and you've got to be around like-minded people because if you don't, you'll be sucked down by the mentalities around you because people who aren't doing this kind of work do not understand and it's not realistic for us to expect them to. So what it is realistic to do is to find other people who do think like you do and discuss these things with them and let like... like iron sharpened iron, right? Like this place of... -+: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause a lot of people have family members and friends that are just like, whatever, that like that's a pipe dream, or you know, they're just not Dr. Leslie Davis: Mm-hmm. -+: they're not meaning to be discouraging sometimes, sometimes they are, but Dr. Leslie Davis: Right. -+: they they just don't get it. And they don't Dr. Leslie Davis: Yes. -+: understand why it's so important to you. Dr. Leslie Davis: Yes. And my son, he's 21 and he's actively releasing his music. And I talked to him, I was like, what do you want to do? What do you want to put out into the world? Do you want to go to school? Do you want to pursue your music? And so he had to wrestle with that himself. And because my husband and I both are musicians and my husband does production, we're like, you can do this. And the world may tell you, you can't and that it's not realistic for you to pursue your music as your career path. But what I say is if you want music or business or anything in the creatives to be your career path, then treat it like a career path. Get the training you need, get the business smarts you need, hire coaches, do the things that people do to be successful in those areas because it is not foreign if you do those things. -+: Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Leslie Davis: Well, thank you, Brie, so much. -+: Thank you. It's been really fun.