Broadcaster Christian O'Connell on Connection & Being Human bölümünün tam dökümü

00:04:39.199 And actually, you don't need to be perfect. 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:41.759 You can't connect to somebody who's trying to be perfect. 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:55.360 And so because I've been doing this day in, day out, very early in the morning at 6 a.m., I have got practices that are really deeply rooted in the practical how do I do a three-hour radio show without a script every single morning. 00:04:55.600 --> 00:05:03.759 And I've also had anxiety and panic attacks a lot over my years, still with that, to store a bit of go on air and speak to hundreds of thousands of people. 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:07.759 And so it came from a genuine place of I'm 53, Deborah. 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:16.000 So I wanted to, I've been very lucky to learn so much from this unique job that I've been lucky to do that I wanted to pass some of it on. 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:18.560 And so, but I struggled with it for a couple of years. 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:21.920 Every time I try to write it, it was just a very boring book about speaking. 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:26.480 I thought, yeah, I actually don't want to write this, and no one's going to want to read it. 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:29.439 And so, and then something happened two years ago. 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:34.639 My mother-in-law collapsed in front of us and had a massive heart attack. 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:36.959 And my wife had to do CPR. 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:44.319 And then the paramedics turned up, and one of the paramedics was this beautiful man who I'm now a close friend with. 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:46.399 I just saw him for dinner a couple of weeks ago. 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:48.160 But anyway, his name's Rob. 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:53.519 And they tried really hard to save my mother-in-law's life, but they but it's couldn't, it was just too late for her. 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:54.639 That's very traumatic. 00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:58.319 It was my daughters were there and my wife was there. 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:05.759 But I say this out of all the shock, I mean, utter shock and fear and tragedy of it happening so sudden. 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:10.000 And yeah, my poor wife is doing CPR to her own mum. 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:22.480 But I say this there's no ideal way to go out in life, but being surrounded by your loved ones, not dying alone or suffering for years in a hospice, which I've seen happening to friends. 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:27.839 Jackie, we were able to say how much we loved Jackie as her own daughter to try and save her life. 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:34.079 And so Rob this paramedic, the reason why it helped me out have an understanding of what I want to talk about in the book. 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:44.879 As he was packing up to just carry on with his shift, he said to me, Oh, as soon as I came here, I recognized you and I always hoped one day to meet you to say thank you. 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:45.920 And I said, What do you mean? 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:51.199 He goes, Well, two

years ago, I was going through very chronic panic attacks and uh they're really bad. 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:54.879 He's been he's been a paramedic for 40 years, so obviously so much trauma. 00:06:55.120 --> 00:06:57.040 That's these people's everyday life. 00:06:57.279 --> 00:07:05.199 And I happened to be on a podcast that I recorded a couple of years ago, talking for the first time publicly about having very bad panic attacks. 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:06.319 Yes, I saw that. 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:07.279 Yeah, yeah. 00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:10.079 And all I felt at the end of that was shame, to be honest. 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:13.519 I was about to ask them to edit some of it out, but I didn't. 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:24.399 And so sometimes when he when we share those stories that we feel like we've overshared or we're worried about judgment or what people are going to think of us, those are the most important stories to share. 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:26.000 You just don't know it sometimes. 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:30.480 Two years later, that story comes back around on the worst day of our lives. 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:34.480 And Rob this paramedic happens to be the paramedic that's just there. 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:38.079 And he said it really helped normalize it for me so much. 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:38.959 Thank you. 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:41.439 And it gave me something back as well. 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:45.040 It gave me something a bit, it gave me less shame. 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:50.160 It helped me understand about real authenticity, vulnerability, and storytelling. 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:54.079 And I think it was my mother-in-law's last gift to me. 00:07:54.240 --> 00:08:02.319 She sort of, I saw something in all that horror and tragedy that was genuinely beautiful, and it's how much we need each other. 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:05.360 It's what authentic connection is, it's showing up. 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:07.920 Rob took a risk, which is why I call it unscript. 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:08.800 We have all these scripts. 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:10.480 Yes, I love the name, by the way. 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:11.360 I think the name is a very important thing. 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:11.839 Thank you. 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:14.240 Yeah, because it's like you get it. 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:23.439 Yeah, that I mean, I think first of all, that story is quite beautiful, and I relate very much to the notion of an interview as you described a lot of people on this podcast. 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:39.919 And this is sort of a beautiful space and community where people have shared some pretty raw moments, such as the one you just shared now, which was which is very moving, and also that serendipity and that circularity of what you just described is quite extraordinary, actually. 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:56.879 And it shows that if we listen and we actually trust and have faith, and we do share our stories, there's very few people that haven't been through something similar or a version of it, because what this shows is the universality of our experience, and in that there's comfort. 00:08:56.960 --> 00:08:59.200 And that's what this podcast actually is. 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:01.279 It shows people what I've learned. 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:07.519 Well, the words of wisdom that you've just imparted that you learned and that he learned from you, that's very moving. 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:10.399 And that's really what I think both you and I are actually about. 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:15.919 And it sounds your book is very much in that vein, and that's what you're trying to impart. 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:18.720 It also takes courage, as I've mentioned in before. 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:28.720 And I think part of that also as a male, if I might say, there are not too many males, although there are more that are coming out and talking about this stuff. 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:36.960 But there's a lot of males that have been quite reticent or been trained to repress or to be strong or to be, and that doesn't mean you're not strong. 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:43.279 It means actually you're stronger by being authentic and honest about your panic attacks, your anxiety. 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:46.159 In fact, I think it's your fuel in a way, don't you think? 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:52.559 Yeah, to me, honestly, it took me years to really understand that and feel the truth of that most of the time. 00:09:52.720 --> 00:10:02.480 When I first started to talk about it a couple of years ago, it was news to my mum and dad, my best friend, my sister, everyone really, and they were shocked, shocked that I hadn't told them. 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:08.879 But also it's just like, as men, and I'm talking about because I have lived a male experience, so that is my experience. 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:16.080 It's like we are, I think men, it's not so accepted for you to talk about certain emotions. 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:21.919 And it creates so many problems for men, it also equally creates so many problems for the people around them. 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:24.799 It leaks out into so many destructive ways. 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:29.120 And and to be really fair, I haven't written this book from an area of mastery. 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:40.159 Is we still, I think any of us in any situation, any given day, find ourselves defending some part of us we still haven't healed or needs a bit of care and love. 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:41.360 We we still do that. 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:45.440 I think constantly you're you're sort of going up and down between your head and your heart. 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:51.519 You know, so anyone who says that they're they're fully optimized is an absolute liar. 00:10:51.759 --> 00:11:00.720 And the book is full of very flawed stories, and I'm constantly still being reminded of where my work is and sort of where I am. 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:03.200 But my you know, my daughters are 19 and 21.

00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:09.360 I've learned just as much as I've learned from you know thousands of live radio shows and stand-up tours. 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:21.519 I think I've learned just as much from being a dad, really, from from my daughters, especially having daughters as well, because sometimes I'll see them and my wife, they will just they're like microwaves for their emotions. 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:23.759 They it all happens within like a minute. 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:29.039 And I'm like, and then they're like crying, arguing, hugging, then laughing. 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:32.000 And I'm like, I didn't know this was an option. 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:33.679 Wait, you can do this. 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:35.759 They're going, yeah, you can do this. 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:47.840 And so I'm I'm I've learned so much from being a man in a matriarchy, quite uniquely, with three very strong women showing me what it really is to feel your emotions. 00:11:47.919 --> 00:12:06.080 And so, and of course, they struggle with it sometimes, and we all do, but to what you were talking about, my book, and whenever I when the wonderful things, whenever I talk about panic attacks, oh the emails I get from men are incredible because they're like, Oh, thank you. 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:08.240 Thank you for just talking about it. 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:14.399 And it's not like I've got a hack and my five-step technique to defeat all your monsters. 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:16.080 It's more like normalizing it. 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:18.879 That I think these days means a lot for people. 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:22.080 It goes some way towards acceptance. 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:23.440 Absolutely agree. 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:33.919 And I think also, you know, just with the nature of what's happening in with men and the manosphere and the complexities around everything we're saying, which obviously you'd be fully aware of. 00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:47.759 I think this is like the release valve that men need so that they know that there is a way to communicate and a way to listen by seeing people like yourself talk about this stuff so overtly and so authentically. 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:50.879 It's actually, it should be just, as you say, normalized. 00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:52.080 And I'm not sure why. 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:54.879 I don't know if it's a cultural thing or a historical thing. 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:57.200 I mean, I have daughters as well, and I have a son. 00:12:57.440 --> 00:12:59.440 And it's I was talking with Dr. 00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:06.000 Shafali, as I mentioned yesterday in an interview, and she's a big US psychologist who specializes. 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:10.799 She's she talks about the difference in the way we raise men and raise women. 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:21.919 And that is fundamental that we realize that men have to be allowed to express themselves, not be judged, and that the culture has to change to facilitate that. 00:13:22.080 -->

00:13:26.080 So part of what you're doing is quite important for the next generation. 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:35.679 And honestly, for the the men that your girls might marry, you want to know that they have the capacity to express themselves and feel safe in doing so. 00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:38.159 Yeah, I think there's so much. 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:48.159 Yeah, you look around the world, there's so much pain in the world from so many men whose emotions and what's in their heart is sadly a stranger to them. 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:51.440 It's like certain parts of us are frozen away from us. 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:52.960 I speak as one of those. 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:55.679 This has been a very long journey for me. 00:13:55.759 --> 00:14:09.360 And to be really honest, the panic attacks when they first happened in my mid-40s, don't know how old you are, but to some of your listeners who might be what who might know what the middle ages are like, I found that once you get in your 40s, shit gets real. 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:17.200 No matter what scaffolding you think you've built up to defend yourself from life, it will get shaken to its foundation. 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:17.840 100%. 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:19.360 And I think it needs to. 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:20.799 I think it actually needs to. 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:22.080 It did for me. 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:28.080 I thought I built up this perfect system of protective and nuclear defense system and no one's going to get in. 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:31.759 But trouble is, if you build up a system where no one can get in, you can't get out. 00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:33.440 Well, exactly. 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:35.360 So I became trapped. 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:42.080 And so actually, the panic attacks that I used to say, oh, they've just come out of nowhere, they were warning signs for years. 00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:44.799 It's just that I outworked them. 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:48.559 I just found other ways to try and quiet it and numbing it down. 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:52.639 And eventually what starts as a whisper in your body will end up as a scream. 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:54.639 And it did with chronic panic attacks. 00:14:54.720 --> 00:15:02.000 I mean, at the time they were horrendous, but then I can see now that actually they were an incredible gift for me. 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:05.039 I think the more men that approach it that way, the better. 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:07.440 And you're a wonderful example of that. 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:15.679 You talk about also your, you know, you've got it quite a power tool in the sense of your work and your scope to reach lots of people. 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:22.559 It's a privilege and it's an extraordinary platform that you have and that you've obviously cultivated and created. 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:25.759 And I know you're very respected in your field. 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:33.279 Do you feel that you're getting a resonance and that you're seeing

transformation in your listenership? 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:35.279 Are people responding to what you're saying? 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:39.360 You mentioned that example of the paramedic, but do you think there is change? 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:47.360 And do you think that there is some understanding that this change is absolutely critical moving forward? 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:53.200 I think that people are starved of real human connection right now. 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:55.039 That's what I do see in my job. 00:15:55.120 --> 00:16:06.240 And I can call it more than I think any professor that you might interview in a way, because I haven't got it's not peer-reviewed, it's it's lived experience of every single day, day in, day out. 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:11.279 And you think about when I'm on the I've only ever done breakfast radio, and that's all I ever want to do. 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:13.679 Because I think it's a real privilege to talk to people in the morning. 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:19.759 Because in the morning, right, you wake up and the day is it's still got promise and potential. 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.919 You might get most of your things on your to-do list done. 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:38.240 It's all like today might be the day, and you haven't, and as you listen to me, or whoever you listen to in the morning, or you're driving to work or whatever, and do the school run or whatever you're up to in the morning, you haven't quite got all your emotional armoring fully in place. 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:41.279 When you get to the workplace, it has to be game phase time. 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:45.039 So I'm speaking to people in this kind of liminal open space. 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:53.440 You can have this incredibly funny, authentic sharing and storytelling, and it's incredibly quite a magical connection. 00:16:53.600 --> 00:17:02.000 But and what I've seen over the years is like when I first started on radio, it was the late 90s, and so people just wanted it fast, funny, big, brash. 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:08.240 And and and and I was part of that, and now it's completely different because context. 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:11.519 People talk about content all the time, but context is just as important. 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:16.240 Look at the way of the world right now, it is a scary time to be alive. 00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:29.599 We're in very divided times, and it turns out that social media isn't actually that social, it's there, the algorithm is built is built on keeping us in there, engaging us with fear, mistrust, anger, and division. 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:38.799 And I think that we're becoming meaner to each other online, and that is trickling out to being meaner and more judgmental to each other in person as well. 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:40.480 We're losing empathy. 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:42.079 That's what we're losing is empathy. 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:53.680 And so I'm seeing in the morning through speaking to people that when we do get into areas of genuine connection, funny storytelling, kindness, compassion, it's like a superpower. 00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:57.279 Um, that's what it's your of course they do. 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:00.000 I mean, I'm finding this even with the podcast the same thing. 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:04.480 The most extraordinary yours is live, and you have obviously this extraordinary. 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:10.240 I love that idea also of the morning when people are raw and they're somewhat their defenses are down somewhat. 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:11.759 So yeah, mine too. 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.000 Yeah, I was gonna say yours must be as well. 00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:16.799 I mean, you must have to really have a really strong coffee. 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:21.279 But I'll tell you one thing I do want to chat to you about, and it's relevant to that. 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:29.200 You know, you talked about that, I think you were doing morning radio on the morning of the Bondi tragedy, which is very close to my heart. 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:35.200 And it was your first ever Sydney broadcast, was that right, scheduled for that morning after the attacks? 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:45.279 You had a you had a scheduled and you were faced with a grieving city and you had to really abandon everything and prepare and choose instead to simply be present. 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:49.920 And you I quote, you say nothing I could say would make sense of what had happened. 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:53.680 All I could do was create a space for people to talk about how they were feeling. 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:56.799 The connection matters for more than having the right words. 00:18:57.519 --> 00:18:59.599 I was just so moved when I read that. 00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:00.559 Your quote. 00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:01.440 Oh, thank you. 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:10.960 Because actually, you had this huge responsibility to hold a safe space for an incredibly emotional time in our country's history. 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:15.440 How did you find that morning and how did you navigate that? 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:48.960 Yeah, so like I said, I moved through eight years ago and I began in Melbourne, and then this year my show went national, so it was going to be going into Sydney, and so I thought it would be a really nice thing to do to go and say hello to the city of Sydney before starting in January when all the other shows were ending and saying goodbye for the summer and Christmas break, that I would just go and do a week to say hello, and because most of them wouldn't know who I was, and so I thought rather than just expect them to listen to me, so say this is who I am, this is the kind of radio I do, you know. 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:55.440 And I was replacing a show in Sydney, Jones and Amanda, that have been beloved, been on there for 20 years. 00:19:55.519 --> 00:20:01.200 So there was some animosity, and so I wanted to speak to that directly and listen to people.

00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:08.240 So I flew into town on the Sunday, the Sunday of the Bondi Beach massacre. 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:16.799 And we were out for dinner, me and my team, and then everyone's phones were pinging and ringing, and I've never experienced anything like it. 00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:22.079 And I've been on air through, live on air through terrorist attacks in London 2005. 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:32.559 This was very different, and people were stunned, like we all were, that it had happened in Sydney and Bondi, of course, which has had such a tough couple of years with the Westfield attack as well. 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:35.920 But this was just like it didn't feel like Sydney. 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:37.599 You couldn't quite believe it happened. 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:40.079 It was easy to go, that can't be true, is fake news. 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:44.319 It was easier to believe that than the real horror of what was happening. 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:48.480 And then we found out just how many people had lost their lives. 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:51.119 Yeah, I didn't know whether we should be going on air. 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:53.039 That was going to be the first morning. 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:55.119 Speaking to them, and I didn't know who I was. 00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:59.680 And obviously, people in tough times, they want familiar voices. 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:03.920 And so I felt this tremendous like, is it right that I do this? 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:08.319 And so I thought, well, actually, I want to be of service. 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:09.680 I think I can help. 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:11.920 I know what it's like in these tough situations. 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:13.839 I've never been in a situation like this. 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:23.519 And I also thought, if I walked past a car accident, I wouldn't not go and try and help people because I didn't know who they were and they didn't know who I was. 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:30.480 And I thought, well, if I'm genuinely building a radio show here of kindness, compassion, authenticity, and community. 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:33.200 You know, people talk a lot about bang on a lot about content. 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:38.319 I'm less interested in that and more about community, then I absolutely should show up in the morning. 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:45.279 And whenever our friends go through tough times, we often don't pick up the phone because, and I've done this before, you go, I don't know what to say. 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:51.200 It isn't about what you say, it's about being a friend, a witness to someone who's having a tough time. 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:59.680 And so I think that morning I went on air and I said to my team beforehand, No, and we're all actually scared, to be really. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:00.160 Us. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.359 And also, do you know what? 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:02.400 Really sad. 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:10.319 The news that we were hearing before, obviously, we were going to share on air was the worst news for any city to wake up to. 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:13.519 You know, young people, old people losing their lives like that. 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:22.319 I said to my team, our job today and this week is to find the good news that is out there because we all know the darkness. 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:23.359 We all know that. 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:27.519 And it's our job is actually to find the light in all of this. 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:31.119 And there were these incredible stories of the first responders. 00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:31.920 The young lads. 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:37.599 You know, the Bondi young teenagers running goosebumps, running for danger. 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:38.079 Yeah. 00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:43.599 Ahmed, you know, elderly couples who lost their lives wrestling with Bonday. 00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:45.519 I mean, I don't know what I do in that situation. 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:46.319 Yeah, I think. 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:47.599 I think we were all thinking that. 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:47.920 Yeah. 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.960 Like what would you do when it's really is like that? 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:53.359 And that elderly couple fighting with them. 00:22:53.519 --> 00:23:02.079 And so it was my job to celebrate that and not give in to the horror of what they'd what they'd created in the city. 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:05.359 Because actually the truth is there's more good people in the world. 00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:07.680 And just one amazing reaction around the world. 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:10.400 I mean, millions were raised within 24 hours. 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:14.960 Just people moved by a city going through something so horrendous, really. 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:23.200 And so I actually that that that five days on air was the most profoundly moving week of my life. 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:28.720 And it really did show me that it actually isn't about perfection, trying to have the right words. 00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:30.640 It's more about being present. 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:38.640 It's more about listening to people and always trying to tilt it back towards kindness, compassion, and the like. 00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:41.279 Do you know what the loveliest thing was? 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:51.200 Is on the Wednesday morning before the show, someone turned up at the radio station and they must have Googled what cake do English people like? 00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:57.440 They baked me a Victoria's sponge cake that they brought to the radio station at 5:30 a.m. 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:00.559 to say thank you for showing up on the radio this week. 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:01.519 Oh my word. 00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:03.359 I remember that is so beautiful. 00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:07.279 I remember team in tears with the sponge cake. 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:08.720 It was that kind of week. 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:09.519 You know what it was? 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.000

It was just felt big, raw. 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:12.480 Yeah. 00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:14.880 I think raw is a good description, actually. 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:15.519 Yeah. 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:18.079 And it reminded us how much we need each other. 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:25.440 And in the most extreme form, this was a vivid example of what happens when we become disconnected from our shared humanity. 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:28.880 That radicalization, the manosphere. 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:33.119 And it also, more importantly, showed us how much we want to help each other. 00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:42.160 I was getting calls every day from people who had been queuing for hours to give blood because there was such a massive demand on the blood bank of Sydney. 00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:47.200 People were queuing up of different ages and races and creeds wanting to help. 00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:50.559 And I thought that was more important to talk about and reflect that. 00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:54.160 That is such a powerful story you've just told. 00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:58.559 And I think it really was, it was like such a moment in history. 00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:01.279 I mean, I've grown up as an Australian my whole life. 00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:05.599 I was born in Sydney, and I have a lot, you know, we've all grown up on Bondo Beach. 00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:10.720 So it was a very, very palpable moment in time. 00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:18.400 But your response to it, I think, is just such an exemplification of why people listen to you. 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:28.720 Because I think your humanity, which is at the cornerstone of your book and of what you do, is actually what we need a lot more of. 00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:44.079 And personally, I'm just so grateful that we have people like you who can actually take that perspective and lead the way, shine the light, give us the roadmap, because you were thrust into something so extreme and so dramatic. 00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:47.200 And your response was one of utter humanity. 00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:49.759 And if we could just make me cry. 00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:50.240 I must be. 00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:52.799 I mean, you're gonna make me cry because I'm listening to the way. 00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:03.839 And actually, I was so genuinely anxious and scared. 00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:13.920 Like, you know, this is a really this is I think you hit on the yeah, you said it actually, this is a moment in history, and it actually matters today what you say. 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:17.519 And it was this tremendous was a responsibility. 00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:24.319 I never felt the weight of that before because sadly the last terrorist attack that I was on air for was just happening real time. 00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:29.359 You had no time to think about response, and that was 2005, it's a very long time ago. 00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:35.119 This city waking up, and also I'd been on air in I was a London trusted familiar voice

then. 00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:42.640 This was you're an English guy, and no one really knows who you are, and suddenly going, hey, good morning, and then they're hearing this news. 00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:48.319 And so I just remember we also we gave away digital billboards. 00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:58.960 So we said, Hey, if there's something you'd like to say to everyone this morning, we've got these billboards, you know, hundreds of thousands of people will see it, and we did it every day that week. 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:10.319 And I think the first one was I Love Sydney, that someone said, and it was just a beautiful way of togetherness, you know, that it brought everyone together. 00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:12.079 It's still bringing us together now, isn't it? 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:12.720 Captain Month. 00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:13.279 It is. 00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:22.880 I was just thinking that, you know, yeah, because I actually think, as I mentioned and we talked about earlier, the universality of our shared humanity is really what you and I are about. 00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:30.400 That's the mission here, to actually continue that connection, to value that empathy, to understand that we're all fragile underneath. 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:38.079 And really, as you talk about the lessons learned and practical ways to build deeper connection, which I think your book alludes to. 00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:43.920 It's a way of saying it does take, as we talked about courage, though, and bravery. 00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:49.279 Like even that morning, you it took incredible strength for you and courage for you to take a position. 00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:53.599 I you know what I can't accept that because the real courage was the night before. 00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:55.680 It's it's the people actually there. 00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:56.960 That's that's courage. 00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:00.720 Mine was a different, was a different, you know, it's a different thing. 00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:19.200 Yeah, well, I think though those voices such as yours are really pivotal and critical, and we must ensure that they continue to have prominence in our community, voices of reason, because you, as you mentioned, we are in a very disturbing time. 00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:32.319 And for your daughters, for my children, for all of our the next generation, this is the path that we need to carve so that they don't feel this isolation and sense that they are alone or without connection. 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:40.799 Do you find as a parent, do you have these discussions with your kids about because they're in their 20s, mine are similar? 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:48.880 Do you have these discussions and navigating this particular time in history, not just what happened at Bondi, but just everywhere? 00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:57.440 How are you finding that to guide them, but also let them thrive and and not just survive, but thrive? 00:28:58.079 --> 00:29:06.079 Well, I mean, as much as I'm guiding them, I think, you know, sadly, built into the job of being a parent is obsolescence. 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:08.799 You you are required to fade into the background. 00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:12.400 It is the saddest job description in the world. 00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:15.200 You're gonna continually worry and love about them. 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:25.440 They're gonna give you so much love that you didn't know existed in the world in your body, and you must raise them, if you do it well, to walk out the door and shut the door behind them one day. 00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:29.119 And then you've got to somehow fade into the distances. 00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:31.200 It's like, wait, I don't know, I still want to be here. 00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:32.319 No, you don't have to be able to do that. 00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:33.440 I'm not that good at that. 00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:34.160 I hear you. 00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:36.480 I'm an empty nester now, my wife and I. 00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:47.359 And so my daughter's at university, one of them's just graduated, they're very passionate, they're very, they're really actively engaged in what's happening in their world. 00:29:47.599 --> 00:30:01.759 And so uh we have these very big discussions, sometimes it goes into arguments, but I I'd love the passion, uh, the the righteousness, they've got every ang every reason to be angry with the mess of the world right now. 00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:04.000 But the interesting thing is is the conversation. 00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:21.440 You can have these really incredible conversations, and as they're getting a bit older, they're meeting this the edge of the world, the ambiguity between idealism, where you are at college and you're in this tiny bubble, and then the harshness of real real life, but also the beauty. 00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:27.119 And I guess they've been lucky, they've seen their dad do a really unusual job, okay? 00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:29.599 And they've seen all these different versions of me. 00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:37.839 And the hardest one for me to share with my dad with my kids really is because I've always loved being the funny dad, okay, and making my daughters laugh. 00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:40.720 That's still how we bond about music and comedy. 00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:45.200 But the really, the most important version of me they needed to see was the undefended one. 00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:55.519 When I told them about the the first time about how almost quit doing this job they've known I've done since they were born, which was was was live radio and about panic attacks. 00:30:55.680 --> 00:31:01.359 That that deepened my relationship with my daughters far more than being funny. 00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:02.480 Way, way more. 00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:09.759 It just means that when you know they both have any any daughters will go through their teenagers and that don't forget they moved the other side of the world. 00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:27.920 When we

talk about struggles and anxiety and things like that, you don't know they can come to their dad, or if I'm talking about it, I'm not talking about it as some superhuman, some fake version of a dad, which it they know isn't true anyway, that I've been through my own version of it, and so I've got a greater empathy for it. 00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:31.440 And they have for oh my god, dad had panic attacks. 00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:39.920 He still did just he still managed a way to get back on the radio in the end, and so I think they've seen me mature and change how I do. 00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:47.920 Even having a book out like this, I would give them chapters of it, and uh, I remember one chapter about vulnerability. 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:50.000 Oh, yeah, I was just about to use that word. 00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:52.640 That's so I was just it was at the tip of my tongue, vulnerability. 00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:57.279 They were quiet, and I was really worried, oh my god, it must be terrible. 00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:03.839 They've literally got no reaction, and then afterwards they went, they were just surprised that it was so good. 00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:07.680 They went, This is like a sort of thing a professor would write once then. 00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:08.559 I went, okay. 00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:15.039 And then my youngest daughter, Lois, she goes, Yeah, I mean, it's actually it's actually shocking how wise you are. 00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:17.920 And then she goes, sorry, I mean, I mean, you of course you should be wise. 00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:19.599 You're you know, you're 53. 00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:21.920 I went, it's okay, there's no no offense taking. 00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:22.720 I know what you mean. 00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:28.319 Based on what you've seen so far from your dad, this is this is quite a bit of a leap. 00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:53.839 And so it just meant that they could, they're seeing it, they're still seeing a different version of me who can blend being a romantic in quite a brutal world, and yeah, it is a brutal world, and we must remind ourselves every single day it's also full of beauty and wonder, and there are way more good, beautiful people doing great things and just waiting to be spoken to by you as well. 00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:56.160 Well, aren't they lucky to have you as a dad? 00:32:56.319 --> 00:32:58.079 That's well, I don't know about that. 00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:04.640 I really can we agree situational. 00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:09.039 As a parent of three, um I totally yeah, I get it totally. 00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:18.240 It's hard, but it's actually what you have pointed out is really important because the vulnerability actually empowers your relationship with them. 00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:20.640 It doesn't make you it actually makes it better. 00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:24.319 But gee, it's hard sometimes to expose your own vulnerability. 00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:29.920 It's really scary because you don't know how they're going to take it, but actually it makes them feel okay to do that too and to be vulnerable. 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:36.160 But on that beautiful note, I just want to say I I really have enjoyed this interview with you and me too. 00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:48.079 Your your book is really very important for people to get out and buy and read because the more voices in this uh genre and framework, the better. 00:33:48.319 --> 00:33:52.720 Because we need it, we need to stay real, authentic, and organic. 00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:59.279 I think that is the biggest invitation of our lives right now as we try and work out what's real and what's AI. 00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:04.160 I'll tell you what's real is being more real, being more flawed, being deeply human. 00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:11.199 That's that's what's that's why I call my book unscript, you know, the radical act of being yourself. 00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:18.000 That's what you can do more than any algorithm will ever do, is show up more real, show more of your messiness. 00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:19.280 That's where we find each other in, right? 00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:20.800 I think that's not perfection. 00:34:21.199 --> 00:34:23.519 Yeah, and and that's so important. 00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:34.000 I love that, and it's certainly a very important message because there's too much on socials that implies that everything is perfect and it just is not, as we know. 00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:34.480 Yes. 00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:36.480 Um, on that note, thank you so much for joining us. 00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:38.559 Thanks for showing up how you do as well. 00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:39.599 Oh, thank you. 00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:40.960 Yes, and I really appreciate it. 00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:42.400 Good luck with the book. 00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:43.119 Thank you. 00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:43.599 Yes. 00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:44.960 Well, you're gonna be in it. 00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:46.480 So um stop it. 00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:46.960 Stop it. 00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:50.639 I'm bringing my kids right now, kids. 00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:55.440 So I'd just like to thank you so much for your time and um pleasure. 00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:56.000 Thank you. 00:34:56.239 --> 00:34:56.559 Bye. 00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:57.599 Thank you. 00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:02.480 Well, thank you for joining us on the What I've Learned podcast. 00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:13.039 I hope you enjoyed that interview because we are so privileged to have a wonderful platform where guests come on and share lessons learned, rivers crossed, mountains climbed. 00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:19.519 We love our shared humanity, and we are so grateful to have such a beautiful community. 00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:26.320 So remember to stay curious, kind, and connected, and we'll see you next time at the What I Plant Podcast.