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nathan: I always say to like people who are breaking through, don't listen to anybody telling you not to like or to like fall in line or like do you know there's so many people in our industry that want you to like Pay your dues or whatever. I'm the opposite.
Daniel: Mm. Yeah.
nathan: I'm like fuck that, skip that, find the biggest person.
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: Go talk to them, tell them how great you are, long as you're making the work and you're not a bullshitter, people wanna know. They wanna know if you're making the work. So make the
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: work and then go and find a way to tell the people how good your work is.
Daniel: This episode is with screenwriter and author Nathan Bryan. He is super cool, funny writer. He wrote Rye Lane and he's a creator of Bloods and he's just... Lovely dude, I've known him for a little while. We cross paths here and there. His energy is just contagious. He's really funny, really inspiring. Watching his journey has just been amazing. We have a really nice chat and I think you're gonna get a lot from it. So enjoy the episode.
nathan: Well, I'm good. It's Friday. I I've got the weekend off, I'm not doing no work.
Daniel: Nice.
nathan: and I've got a little bit of writing to do today, like I don't have to I don't have a deadline to hit, so I'm alright, yeah, I'm alright.
Daniel: Were you watching right now, old or new?
nathan: What am I watching? Okay, I'm watching my favourite show of all time, which is Scrubs, but the new the new new version like what do you call it? Like a brought back version reboot.
Daniel: It's like it's not really a reboot, is it? Because it's got the characters are back, right?
nathan: The same shit. Everyone is doing the same shit in the same hilarious way. It is
Daniel: So how is it? Because I'll be on when that show was out, that was I I I worship that show when it was out. at first it like,
nathan: I loved that show.
Daniel: what is this zany shit? And then I just got into it instantly and I I adored that show. But I've never watched
nathan: It's exactly the same. That's why I'm quite shocked at how good it is in the reboot. It's like I feel like nothing has changed. The jokes are hilarious. I love
Daniel: Hmm. Okay.
nathan: these characters. It's it just makes me absolutely happy. Like really joyous. Love it. What are you watching?
Daniel: Yeah. Alright. I'll check that out. but I'm watching series two of The Gentleman on Netflix,
nathan: I need to do that. I need to do that.
Daniel: series two of that, and which I'm enjoying even more than series one actually. 'cause I I did actually
nathan: I need
Daniel: like the movie, but the series the show I was like on the fence on, but then series two is really good. I'm watching Mobland once a week on Paramount.
nathan: I need to do that as well. I do like I've seen an episode and I loved it. It's just one of those I need to go
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: back to.
Daniel: It's pretty good. And and I'm watching Slow Horses. Slow Horses is one of my favourite shows on Apple.
nathan: Nice. I love it. Slow horses. I'm on series three and I love it. It's great. It's
Daniel: Yeah man, that's that's legit one of my favourites as well. So I'm I'm I'm mixing between those.
nathan: Yeah, that's a really good mix. it's clear to me that you love guns and crime. That's
Daniel: Ha ha ha.
nathan: what it sounds like you love. Like you need some happy shit in your life. Yeah, you need some where's the like you need like a light comedy in there or some shit. Like you need
Daniel: Guns, crime, guns, crime, and spies. Yeah, I need some scrubs. Yeah. Yeah, that's I man, let me think. Yeah, I was into hacks, you know, I and then I kind of played
nathan: that's a good one. That's a good one.
Daniel: that. I watched like two or three series of that. I love it's not a lot, what do you say? I watched, you know
nathan: Have you seen Furious? That's not a light comedy, that's sorry.
Daniel: what? Imagine for someone like me, I watched the opening scene and I was like, I'm not ready for this. Like
nathan: What you love murder? This is literally
Daniel: The opening scene, I was a bit like, whoa, I I don't know, it just caught me off guard and I was like, Okay, another time, another day. I think
nathan: Wow, so you just hate female serial killers, is that what you're saying? Wow, you're getting this is
Daniel: Maybe it was like yeah. Maybe I was like, this is triggering. No.
nathan: getting cut out of the edit, isn't it? You're not putting this in.
Daniel: No, real talk, you know it was. It was Saturday night. And I I think Saturday night's more of a popcorn event evening and I try and do a movie first. You know? and I try to see I heard. serious.
nathan: Yes, I hear that, I hear that. But go back to it, it is the best thing I've seen this year. it's and actually compared to a lot of crime stuff, there's some maybe it's just women killing men who deserve to die is it feels okay. it doesn't
Daniel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
nathan: it doesn't feel like they're doing anything bad. You're kinda like, Yeah, kill him.
Daniel: It's just yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bit like the Dexter thing, isn't it? Where it's like killer, but Yeah, yeah. No, I've I've
nathan: Exactly, exactly. You're like they kinda deserve it, So I definitely watch
Daniel: heard really good things. so yeah, I will definitely check it out. But yeah, what what early shows then or films or any books like got you into writing TV and film man?
nathan: so like when I my sort of ones that I really remember affecting me, like when I was younger, younger, you know, Fresh Prince and all those sorts of shows. But I mean like when I was starting to become an artist were the shows that really sort of shaped my voice and tone. From the sort of drama angle, I'm like a Shonda Rhymes I like
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: anything she touched. Her Thursday night on ABC with was Scandal, House Gateway of Murder, and my god, what's the other one? Grazing Atomy. I used to watch those
Daniel:
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nathan: three back to back on a Thursday via illegal means. Ha ha ha ha. Because I don't have an ABC over here.
Daniel: I'm here.
nathan: and I was just obsessed with all her hooks. Her characters felt
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: fresh. I just loved the world. And then comedically I think I was very Obsessed with your Big Bang Theories, your modern families,
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: the middle, really big American sitcom, like big, broad, Malcolm in the middle, and that sort of shaped more and less what I do quite a lot now, like big comedies and and things
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: like that. So those shows were really big and important to me. And I would I wouldn't miss an episode. I'd be like downloading all the episodes I could get 'cause again, this was before streamer and all that shit, but you could get it. It's like you gotta
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: go find that shit. So yeah, they were they were my big shout.
Daniel: Yeah. And why and so yeah. And while you're watching those, are you thinking, I wanna do this? Is that when you're like or is it before that or did it come after?
nathan: do you know what I'm really bad at when lots of writers study an episode and they work it out, I forget to do it. I just watch the thing and I'm having a good time. Then someone goes, What? You need to watch it again and I'm like, I don't want to do that 'cause I know what happens. But so no, not really. I think maybe in hindsight it was like a subconscious thing of like 'cause that my parents weren't in the industry, I didn't have necessary friends in the industry, so I didn't really understand that being a writer was a real job. I thought that was some shit that old white guys do with quills. I thought so it was only when I got older and more
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: into being an actor that I understood the job of a writer. And then maybe from then I was watching those shows and being like Yeah, I would like to do something like that, but I knew my version was gonna be really weird and really different to what I was watching. watching the Big Bang theory. I'm loving it. But I'm not going like, I write I'm gonna write the Big Bang. I'm just enjoying the characters, enjoying the world. And I guess those times I was making short films and I was
Daniel: Hmm.
nathan: making web sketches and stuff like that. And I guess you're inspired by other people's good work, so maybe it would filter in. But
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: and I guess deep, deep, deep down one of my dreams still. is to have a big A B C sitcom that takes over the world. But
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: I know they're hard to get but that's definitely still in the back of my head is something I'd love to do, which would be great.
Daniel: Would you want to star in that?
nathan: Yeah, fuck it, why not? Yeah, yeah, I think Yeah, I think my journey with acting and writing I'm still coming round to. But yeah, I would I would love to act in it somewhere. Maybe maybe not the lead role, because that sounds like a lot of work,
but in
Daniel: Mm mm.
nathan: a sense of like to run a show, to make sure it's really good, to also be the lead of that show, y it's good to Yeah Especially when it's twenty two episodes, you need you need a team to help you do that. So
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: yeah, I'd I f for now I'd love to create a show like that. 'Cause I think those shows really stand the test of time when they're hits and they break around all over the world. They touch everyone when they're great, so that'd be really cool.
Daniel: So tell me about your training then. How did you when you were like, Okay, I'm gonna start writing, did you how did you learn? Did you just pick up a pen? Did you mimic things like
nathan: Yeah, I didn't I didn't I didn't train really. I didn't go to university. I left school with some very shoddy A levels and then I I went to some drama workshops where I was sort of learning playwriting for a bit with Simon Stevens and Bola Agbadje. And they were really the first two people who inspired me to write full stop because About for their passion about writing was unbelievable. And I think Boller had just won the Olivier Award for her play Gone Too Far, I think. So we went to go see that at the Royal Court, and it was contemporary, and it had black people in it, and it was in this building. And I was just like, wow, this is a real thing. Like, you could be a writer and do this, and she's really
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: cool and her work's cool. And then Simon. Is the most passionate man about words I've ever met in my whole life and how he cares about character and stories and all of that. So through that course, it was about ten weeks, one night a week, maybe two hours a night. But by the end we'd had a play. And
Daniel: Wow.
nathan: my play was about kidnapping the Queen. So my mum kidnaps the Queen. So my mum and the Queen can watch The Devil Wears Prada in Peace. I don't know what I was smoking, boy, but that was the play. And
Daniel: Wow. What I'm in.
nathan: Yeah, and that it it it it did well in this competition. And then that sort of started my sort of like, okay, I'm gonna
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: write and when I wasn't making the short films, I'd be trying to write plays and so on and back and forth. So I'm completely like I would say self taught, but the bug came from
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: that workshop and I'm still self learning now, at my big age of thirty five. Every year
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: I'm learning more shit about scriptwriting and how to get better and where my flaws are and stuff like that.
Daniel: And what you doing to self learn, even now?
nathan: Yeah, at the moment I'm really I watch any great interview on YouTube. So like any every writer who has a movie out will be doing a podcast about their journey and I watch pretty much every one and I'm like or I'll listen to script notes or I'll listen to any of the any of the big podcasts and generally they're real like, I was listening to one I've been having American generals meetings and I was listening to the strip note episode about American generals 'cause I was like, Am I doing these meetings right? Like is it should it be going like this? And then I heard the podcast and I was like, Foo you. Okay. This is how
Daniel: He
nathan: it's gonna go. Great, good. and like you think you get to my age and you kind of should know what you're doing, but I don't I don't. So
Daniel: Okay.
nathan: I'm I'm just I'm trying to take in, I'm watching I watch like a wide genre of stuff, like I love animation, I love being like on judging panels so I get to watch films and documentaries I've never watched. And I say that to say the more you watch, the better you get, right? That's like that's just the truth. So I watch, I
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: read, and I speak to people like you, man. How about you? How do you how do you track your sort of where you're at?
Daniel: I'm I think I'm the same as you. I I really like continually trying to like learn more and study different books I haven't. there's always different books out there about the craft of writing, but I'm also like you that I love a YouTube interview, I love a podcast, you know.
nathan: Love. Yeah.
Daniel: I even go back to some of the favourite ones. there's the odd ones that, you know, even if it's a clip, But yeah, I think that's something you should always be doing. Yeah, while you're actively writing, always just reflecting on how you could improve or what an angle you could try, if you've always written in one POV or one lead, try an ensemble. If you've always done an hour,
nathan: Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel: try a half hour. yeah. So yeah, I'm always actively trying. And there's levels in it. There's like the the craft structure level, but then there's the kind of like the the Joseph Campbell, Greek mythology, other angles
nathan: well, the seven stories vibes.
Daniel: those sort of things, yeah, the kind of like more spiritual, esoterical, like just looking at story in a different way, like, you know, studying or studying Safe Cat.
nathan: Yeah, yeah. And and and I think Yeah, exactly. And I think as well, even with all of the things we just said, it will always, always just come back to your instinct as well. So all you what you're trying
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: to do is get as many tools in the toolbox and
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: then let your instinct lead you anyway. But it's nice I started just by trying and failing and now I'm trying to just get smoother and quicker and better and
Daniel: But
nathan: All of it. So it is really fun to feel like you've got a job where you can see your progress. if you read a script from five years ago and you read your latest script, hopefully your f hopefully things are better, we hope. Yeah, I hope. I'm saying that, I'm like, ugh but yeah, no, I think
Daniel: Yes, yes, you hope.
nathan: so. I think so.
Daniel: I had a moment this I'm working with an exec friend and we were talking about 'cause I I I I write a lot of crime and thriller, but I
also do love, believe it or not, a bit of drama comedy as well, And
nathan: Yes.
Daniel: I actually came in on that genre doing that as a web series and and we were talking about some of my older ideas that I'd written and she was like, Great, let's read those scripts and I couldn't get through the first ten pages. It was a it was a tough read. It was
nathan: Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel: a tough this is a good sign then, because my current stuff I'll read and you know, really enjoy it.
nathan: Yeah, but that's
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: good. I'm exactly the same. There's stuff that I'm reading from back in the day and I'm like Okay, okay,
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: w everyone was very nice. We got through this. Okay. and hopefully in ten years I'll look back at this stuff and hopefully not feel as bad, but except that, you know, get better, you get better, you get better, you get better.
Daniel: Yeah. You said earlier about US rooms. Could you expand on that a bit? You were saying, you come away from them and think, Wait, is am I am I wrong about have the
nathan: I think y it just the US rooms I've only been in one US room so far or
Daniel: Sorry, sorry, it wasn't s I'm sorry, it was you said the generals. You were talking about Yeah.
nathan: Generals, yeah, yeah. Because I think after our film came out we had tons of generals, stateside. Which you have over here as well, right? You have loads but they're sort of scattered out and the premise is the same, isn't it? Like they wanna know who you are, where you are, what you care about. They wanna tell you who they are, what they're working on, and then they wanna hear like do you have any ideas that could be of any
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: interest to them? But obviously the American development market is different to the English development market. So over here, you mean you could have a general over here and sell an idea off a page or
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: maybe even off like a picture or something like whatever. We you could quickly, very quickly get into like working together on
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: it. Whereas over there, from my experience might be different for you, bro, I don't know. selling a TV idea, you're actually just developing it with them for free until you sell it to a network
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: and that's if you sell it to a network. So that could still be six months of free works and then a no. which is hard for you because unlike them you're not on payroll. So it was
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: also trying to get used to that idea of like, we all that idea but w like we all No one's getting paid f what? Like and I know that money's
Daniel: Ha ha ha.
nathan: so much better if it happens, but like I don't know. That's it's a lot, isn't it?
Daniel: Yeah. It's a different di really different way as well 'cause they have the whole, you know, pitching system as well, which is you know, very different to us, you know, to
nathan: Yeah.
Daniel: go into a room and just pitch out your show for half an hour or
nathan: Yes.
Daniel: preferably less, you know. and for us
nathan: Which again when I went over there s with these meetings and I had to pitch people these film ideas I had. I remember this one
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: bliss this producer, yeah. She must think I'm the dumbest guy ever. No word for liar. I pitched this movie to her for about
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: forty-five to sixty minutes, yeah.
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: And she just listened. And listened. And I'm there and now I know that it's like twenty minutes. Don't even Don't even
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: bother with more than twenty minutes. And I've read this well and then this happened. And then da da at this point I've never heard from that woman since. Bless Bless bl but she was so sweet and kind. Probably because I'm on a I'm on her blacklist forever, but why would I know that? my agent probably did tell me something along the lines. But also
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: making a pitch for twenty minutes is so hard. That does
Daniel: Is cool.
nathan: act one, two and three that tells you the great points, that sums up character like there's a reason that takes six months to develop and learn and then pitch.
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: is really hard.
Daniel: Yeah, and then g getting it down to a good script that's engaging and entertaining but s hits all the points, hit the story.
nathan: It's the whole our job is impossible really, to do all of those things all the time really well and stay well adjusted as a human being, like what?
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: Ridiculous. Too hard. How did you find that over there, pitching?
Daniel: how would man, I've I had the same story as you where it was I went in for a pitch on a a company had a book. They had a show runner and they looking for a number two to join him and you know they was like give us your take on this book and my pitch was forty-eight minutes long and
nathan: Damn.
Daniel: I didn't know again till after, like it should be basically less than half that.
nathan: Yeah.
Daniel: but in the moment after I'd finished, they were lovely. The first thing one of the exec producers said was, Daniel, thank you so much. That was a really robust pitch. no.
nathan: Mm-hmm.
Daniel: no. And then the showrunner, who I don't want to name because he wasn't rude, but still He was like, Yeah, man, I kinda got bored. and then I got then I was into it and then I got bored again. And then yeah, thanks. and I just wanted to
nathan: That's all he said.
Daniel: Yes, basically, or no, sorry, that's all I remember, I'll be honest with you. That's all I remember. But what I do know as well, apparently I got down to the final two and it took a long time to figure out who to go with and then they went with someone else, and then unfortunately Project as you know, as things go, didn't go anywhere. But yeah, I had to learn.
nathan: But again, right, is that mental, right? That you've done a forty-eight minute pitch, do you know how long that would have took you to do? And then
Daniel: gosh, yeah.
nathan: it the project don't go anywhere anywhere. So no money's exchanged, nobody's hands, and we've
Daniel: No.
nathan: all got to and then we've got to have feedback like I was bored and then I wasn't. I'm like, fuck Like the Do you want me to headbutt this screen? can we be honest that it's all fucked? please. Why?
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: we got to just I know there's a version of this where the only reason a pitch needs to be twenty minutes, right? Is it's
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: some capitalist bullshit that someone's got a half hour meeting slot and they want twenty minutes and then when you leave they want ten minutes to talk about it and then they've got their next meeting slot. It's not because you it's not a it it's like a selling skill that fits corporate America or some shit. It's not like Who
Daniel: Mm. Yeah.
nathan: cares? Who gives a shit how long it is? Who cares?
Daniel: Especially the personality type of the people that have created it. they're not made for in the room. We're not we're not the type of personality to be in the room pitching out and speaking to group audiences. We've chosen a career as a writer to be away from the public, alone, telling the story. And then it's like come in the room and give
nathan: Yeah. Yeah, in a room and crying for self.
Daniel: us a speech, you know. Luckily 'cause I think acting background helps for us and some you know, but yeah, even still Yeah.
nathan: So hard, you even you even the big Hollywood writers when I've listed the script notes, they talk about the pitching and they dread it. And I'm like, if you lot dread it, can you imagine what I feel when I have to do it? I am like not sleeping for a week, so it's like
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: yeah, but I say all that to say I'm excited to get good at it, you know. I'm excited to like be for it to be a skill that I can do. So
Daniel: Yes.
nathan: And I've got projects
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: I've had two one successful twenty minute pitch and then one I got to the final two twenty minute pitch and I can see the art in it, okay? I can see where it's
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: great, but it's hard. It's hard. It's really hard.
Daniel: so what about earlier days than breaking in? Do you have a
nathan: Mm.
Daniel: moment that you'd consider was the break in moment? Maybe at the time you didn't know it, or maybe you did, but point.
nathan: Yeah, yeah. I had I'd say there's two really big ones for my creative career. One is an acting one but it leads into writing, which is why so one was when I got the role on Benedome as a series regular. It was big because before that role I was earning three grand a year being an actor. At that three grand I was spending on short films and whatever. So I was broke
Daniel: cool.
nathan: beyond broke. it was crazy how broke I was. and then I got that
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: show and then being a series regular I understood what that meant and your suddenly I was earning a lot for me. and
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: I was
in the professional set for six months of the year and I was working with great writers like Darren Lytton. Not working I didn't write any of that show but I was getting to watch him kind of really be a master of it all and really show run that show. And that show was one of the few shows at the time that was being watched by millions of people. that was like a British classic for a lot of the country.
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: So that was a really big jump up in my life where I saw how much you can earn, I saw the level of professionalism you need to be, and I saw what it means to be a me mainstream success and what that looks like. And then from there
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: My next personal one was I did this web series called Reality, which was about being young, black and British. And all this time I've been making short films, the BFI were being really kind and they would always kind of give me a cinema to kind of like this guy Noel Goodway Niniare would give me a screen and They would let me invite people down to watch these very shit films of mine. and they'd do it for free. And that was a game changer in my career because it meant really early on, I was inviting people, I probably shouldn't have been, to come and watch these films. But for reality, this big one I'd done, I asked for NFT one, which is the 450th seater. and I had like four or five episodes to show. And Yaray said yeah. And he gave me the cinema at Wednesday at two o'clock. And I was like, Two o'clock? What the Who the f I got
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: who's free at Wednesday at two o'clock? This is a this is crazy shit. But obviously, me being me, I knew I had to be grateful because I could never afford that cinema. And it that cinema is my dream cinema. I love it. anyway, so but Yara said, you know, it's free, so no one has to pay for a ticket. And I I'd learnt that if you invite people and it's free, there's a fifty percent drop out rate, right? And I promised myself I was filling up that four hundred and fifty seat cinema without a doubt. Whatever happens, I was filling it up. So I invited one thousand five hundred people to this cinema and th I did it by hand on TikTok, not TikTok, Twitter. to anybody in anybody who was an actor. They could have been serial killers. I was inviting them. I didn't give a shit. And when they
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: were saying yeah, I put them on this list. And then it was on the day of the screening. And we like, I should have been really excited, but there was this fear. I was like, Yare was like, so how many people have said yeah? And I was like, like five, six hundred, but a thousand people had said yes. and if they all turned up, I wouldn't be making films now. I'd be fucked. but they didn't. Four hundred and forty people turned up. And the cinema was pretty much as packed as it could be. And we had this screening and it was a one of the best screenings of my life. we did a QA and the audience were really rowdy and asking the maddest questions and it was really like it was just sick. And what I didn't know is that a few producers had found the invite or I'd invited them or whatever. One of them was Seb Barwell, who is now a BBC commissioner, but he worked at Roughcut and he brought me in and was like, I'm working with Samson Keo on this Sky Comedy Short, you should do it with him and then that's when Bloods was created, my first sitcom. And then that put I had my own sitcom at twenty mm nine or thirty. So it was like going from YouTube to that was the biggest headbang against the wall ever, because I c I was flailing for dear life. But when you work with good people, they look after you and help you through it and and teach you. So I always say that reality screening was such a game changer for me. huge, huge, huge game changer.
Daniel: Did you have an agent around that time?
nathan: Yeah, I had an agent. I had an agent, but my agent was more repping me as a As a actor. So I'm like to be fair on them. I was writing Kids TV, I was writing Raster Mouse, I was writing Apple Tree House, I was writing, but nobody was like, there were no sitcoms. Like I wasn't no one was really checking for me in any sort of way. I think that's fair to say. And then after that screening, after getting in with Seb and Roughcart, things really changed. If I if I'm remembering my own story correctly, my
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: agents came and they were like, yo, that was a real that was a you've got an audience. People want to see what you want to say. So I think there was also a belief from them to push me further. And then industry people were just checking for me a bit more. So I did that I believe on my off my own bat, which really helped.
Daniel: That's amazing. You might not remember this, but I got an invite to that and I came to that screening. I think that's when we first met. I think. I think that's when we first met. I mean we
nathan: shit, what did you think? Yeah, yeah. Do you remember that? It was rowdy as hell, do you remember?
Daniel: Yeah, it was mad. Yeah. I'm sure those people sitting on the stairs. I've got like a memory of that
nathan: Yeah.
Daniel: and the Q and A was yeah, yeah, yeah, it was fun. It was a fun time. It was also fine the drinks afterwards. I'll say that as well.
nathan: Yes, yeah, we did. And I think we again the BFI was so sick that I can't remember if we had a fr but anyway, I don't know. But it that screening was great 'cause I
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: got to invite all people like yourself and we all got to meet and chill and it just felt really special. So I I do wanna do another
Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Yeah man. Yeah.
nathan: one of those again, hopefully.
Daniel: Do it man. Do it. I'll be there. Everyone will be there. Yeah.
nathan: Yes. Yes.
Daniel: so you then so meeting Roughcut and then leading to bloods. I'd love to hear more about that process, like developing the show, getting the green light. What was it like?
nathan: Yeah, so that was yeah, that was really an amazing
process because also I had no expectation I'd never been in this. So we made this Sky Art short, me and Samson. we developed it, it was like just him and Jane Horrocks, and it felt like a sketch, like two paramedics go out. And they run into these funny scenarios. Tom Marshall directed it, who was amazing. I think Paul Doolan was involved then. I can't remember, but probably. And we screened it at some fancy hotel in Soho. And afterwards Seb came up to me. He was like, Sky wanna commission a pilot of it. And I was like, Cool. Can I be involved? He was like, What do you mean? You you created the show as Samson. You have to be involved. And I was like, shit, great. and yeah, so then we started writing the 30 minute pilot of it. Cause we just made like a 10 minute taste of tape. But it went out on sky. So that was really cool. and then the pilot of it was when I would Seb took me through school of writing sitcoms. I I'd written, like I said, YouTube, kids TV. I didn't I'd watch loads of sitcoms, but I didn't know the structure of a sitcom. I didn't know how many jokes need to be on a page. I didn't know that you have to end every scene with the biggest joke ideally or a big comedy out or a good button. I didn't really understand about story arcs and really any of that shit. So I did my first draft, I gave it to Seven, it was 45 pages and he was like, Okay, so a sky half hour is about twenty-five minutes, twenty-six minutes. So I basically would go into Rough Cut personally every day from morning until the end of the day, and I'd sit with Seb and we'd refine and we'd chop it up and we'd do some writers' room days with great writers to try and come up with new ideas. And I remember Paul Doolan. was a writer who wrote Trollied at the time. And he came
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: on to co write the pilot with me. And he was I just remember seeing him and just being like, he is hilarious and amazing. And he gets it and he was generous. So us two working together was amazing and it got the pilot away. But it was weird because you know how it's like with we've sent a million scripts off. And you don't hear anything. This one was
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: exactly the same. It we sent the script off, but we worked on it for about a year. We sent the scripts off. We heard nothing. And then I just emailed Seb one day and he was like, yeah, we've heard from Skye. It looks like it's gonna happen. That's all he said. And
Daniel: What?
nathan: I was like, What's gonna happen? Like what's going to happen? Like what
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: are you talking about? He's Yeah, they look like they wanna do it. And I remember being like What is going on here? this is the biggest news of my life. and it literally was as simple as that. A week later, Skye had said yes, and then we were in the writer's room making it into a sitcom. So all that was happening at the same time that we were developing Rylane. It was just it was it was my university, so I was failing a lot frequently. And I
felt like I was gonna explode because the failure felt huge and I felt like I was never good enough. But no one ever told me that or really made me feel like that. But that's what you carry, right? That's you f
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: when you when when you're like going back to the drawing board that many times, you're like, I am not good at this. But I think
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: part of being a writer is about Going back to the drawing board and trying again and trying again and trying again and not taking it as a personal hit. And I'm sure there were many times when we were making Bloods where Roughcut could have gone, We need to get a more experienced writer. and they did in some ways with Paul. Paul was brought on to sub to support me and help me and push me and just make the show better, and he did, but in turn they always supported me becoming better and that really changed my life. So I really I have to always be really grateful to Seb and Roughcut for that, really.
Daniel: Can you expand a bit more on you said the f the failing parts? What is what does that look like?
nathan: Mm The failing looks like One of my biggest failings, which is quite funny, right? Which is not but it is quite funny. So I was writing a sitcom for Sky, right? And I all I ever watched was sitcoms. That's all I ever watched. But deep down, I didn't truly know how to write a joke. Like I knew how to be funny in a pub with mates. I knew how to write funny di funny lines of dialogue which is what I did in reality, which is what Seb saw. But like a really crafted three line
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: setup punchline joke, set up da da da da whatever it is. I didn't really that wasn't like a gun in my wheelhouse that I could just let off any time. So I had to learn the really painful hard way of doing that. And then even when you've done that, Roughcut, the reason why they are so good is that you do a thing, you do it in drama anyway, but y in comedy you do a page turn. And you sit with your producers and they go through every joke and it's the least funny fucking thing ever. Cause they go
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: through and they're like, Is this funny though? And they're all looking around and Nah, I don't think that's funny. Yeah, I like this one Alright, we'll leave that one. And you're refining and so after you've thought of this great joke, you sit in a council and everyone's like, Nah, there's better than that And you go back to it, you go back to it, you go back to it And it was only really when I wrote on bad education with Jack Whitehall and Freddie Cyborg. And I realized that all the beatings and training that I had at Roughcut was when I could finally realise, this is just the way I write now. I can just write jokes. I can write them down, I can flow them out. But then the next step you go on to learn when I'm doing comedy dramas or whatever. Now my tendency is I write too many fucking jokes. And that's a thing
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: as well. So now you've got to remember about like if you write too many jokes, it sounds like a sitcom because people in real life don't just talk gag, gag, gag, gag, gag. So
Daniel: Right.
nathan: now you're then recrafting the way you write for like writing in film or writing comedy drama or comedy horror. So those years were really like They were just really hard to be like, am I good at any of these things? Like, am I even is this even for me? And the truth is, it's completely for me. I loved it. I just had to learn at the pace I did how to do them. And my main skill, and it still is my main skill, is that I do not give up on shit. Like, if you want to do draft 159, bring that shit on. If you want to rip the shit up, Bring it on. If you want me to go and find ten more jokes, bring it on. I will it's my good it's my best strength, but it's also my worst strength because I will not walk away. I am going
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: to get that shit done. And so yeah, like that time in my life was really stressful because I never felt good. Even though to other people I was at the height of my career in some ways, I was getting BAFTA nominations and we had the sitcom on, but I never felt good. I felt like I was shit. And then it's only in the years afterwards where you're like, I was never shit. My skill just couldn't have been at that level at that time because I'd never done it before. But I survived it and I existed in it and my input was just as important that that show exists. So I feel really proud of that.
Daniel: That's amazing man. Well done for getting through it. Well done for packing it in.
nathan: There'll be more, I'm sure. There'll be more drama.
Daniel: And like from then till now, what's your writing process like and has it changed? And what's your writing process like now currently?
nathan: Yeah, my writing process is it what is my writing process? I write with really loud music, which is always some people find very weird. I like I like I I have done a lot of chaos. If you put me in a quiet room, I'm like, what the f I feel like I'm gonna bounce off the walls or something. So I write, my girlfriend hates it, she's like Why you're a writer? why have you got little Wayne blasting
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: so fucking loud around your house? I'm like, that's what I need. So I I write with loud music. My first thing is I do a vomit. I'm sure everyone, most writers do it. First draft where I don't judge myself, I just get it down. Whatever it is, if it's a treatment document, it'll be 10 pages. If
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: it's a script. It'll be too long, but I always finish it. And then my process is to just refine, refine, refine. I let other people read my work. My girlfriend reads my work. My friends read my work. I will pay a script editor if I'm writing a spec to read my work. I really make sure I get my agent to read my work. I really make sure before it goes anywhere it's been tried and tested. Cause even like we just sent a spec script out for me last week. And I
was like, a good six people have read that. But it could still be the last thing I ever write. Who knows? so I just need to
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: know that it's been tried and tested and that nobody's
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: flagged it and said, This is a heap of shit. So that's
Daniel: Right.
nathan: important. And then yeah man, I make sure I write every single day, whether it w it be whatever. Like I write books, kids' books I write TV and film. So every single day I'm writing one of those three.
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: and yeah, man, like I'm just also I even on a bad day, I have to just sit in front of the computer all day. Cause I'm a procrastinator like hell. So I'm not one of those neat writers who like could do nine to five and they've done a lot. I have to do like Nine till nine PM and I've still only done half what a normal writer has done. Because
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: it takes just because I'm a I'm I'm just very distracted, so
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: I I have to do double the hours that a normal person does to complete a normal task. Because now Little Wayne's on and I'm dancing to the lyrics for forty five minutes and now it's lunchtime and now I need to do my washing. And now I've realized that I haven't done anything today, so I need to work until 9 pm, So it's very chaotic, but it always gets done. And I'm quite prolific because I do make sure I sit at that desk and I'm not scared of failing too much, really.
Daniel: So when you're sitting at that desk and you're doing that vomit draft, how long would that take if it was a a half hour? Is there an average?
nathan: Also, I have a scene by scene always
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: that even if I'm writing for myself, I've got a scene by scene. and if I'm writing for a show I've a scene by scene. So if I've got a scene by scene and I'm vomiting, I can vomit
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: that scene by scene in like two days, two and a half days. For a half hour. It will be shit.
Daniel: cool. Well right.
nathan: And if anyone wants to ever see it, I would never work again. And then from
Daniel: Ha ha ha.
nathan: that vomit of scene by scene, I'll work that up to a first draft and that will take a week.
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: and then from then I de cause then I'm going over every scene about twenty, thirty times, making sure like it sings,
Daniel: Right. Yeah.
nathan: it's good, I'm reading it out loud, I'm getting my girlfriend to read it. I'm really trying to finesse it as much as I can.
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: and then yeah, then I'll send it and I'll after I send it, I always read it like three times afterwards to be like, was that was that shit? Was that shit?
Daniel: wow, so you'll send it out and then read it afterwards?
nathan: No, I've read it loads before I sent it, but
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: even after I sent it, I just think, wait, did I have I don't know, am I like was it shit though? I don't I always worry after it's been sent that maybe maybe I got it wrong. Maybe I it's very chaotic. It's just you
Daniel: Yeah,
nathan: have to I just have to flow with the chaos. I've gotta just my cause I know it's a chaotic process, I have to my gift to myself is that I will sit at the desk and just go with it. Whereas the i I'm not so chaotic that it doesn't get done, like My I always get my jobs done. it's just if you were to watch me do this, you'd be like, He is he has problems.
Daniel: Ha ha.
nathan: What's your process? What do you do?
Daniel: what's my process? I'm the same, I like a scene by scene, you know. but I I'm really eager to jump in and write that script soon, once
nathan: Yeah.
Daniel: I've got an idea. And I'm quite strict, I'm quite, you know, I want to get five to ten pages written a day.
nathan: Nice.
Daniel: and I write quite clean. meaning I want that when I get to the end, I would have gone to the beginning so many times that. that first draft is it's not so it's not really a vomit draft. It's like I'm doing so basically it's like but day one I'm doing five to ten pages. Day two, I'm rereading those five to ten and editing as I do my next five to ten day three. Yeah.
nathan: really nice. Really nice.
Daniel: and then but when I hit page like the midpoint, I'm rereading the whole thing to give it a you know, get the story back in and make notes and so yeah, so I'm looking at like roughly two weeks to that draft and I try and do every day. s
nathan: Yes.
Daniel: Saturday or Sunday, which, gotta get those I wanna keep momentum,
nathan: Well what, you'll work every day, Saturday and Sunday. You'll work Saturday and Sunday.
Daniel: If I'm on script. But that could be touching it when that's what I call it. So if it's a Sunday where I'm seeing loads of family and there's a lot of booze, I would have at least read a few pages and written a page or two. Yeah, I'm not doing five to ten on that Sunday. Unless it's
nathan: No, no, no, no.
Daniel: a quiet Sunday. I just wanna keep the momentum that I'm always in the pages every day.
nathan: Yeah, touching it is important. Just making sure that you're
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: reading it or you're thinking about it or whatever it is, yeah.
Daniel: Yeah, yeah. yeah, until I 'til I get to that end and then I just leave it for a few days and then come back to it and then it's to redraft and edit and it's it's is important. I think because you just write so many times and it's you know, touching on what you were saying, knowing your process is so important to like
nathan: Yeah.
Daniel: get you through th those drafts. Like I know I can Because I know my process, which is I can't start writing scripts in the afternoon. I need the morning hours of my mind. Right. See.
nathan: I need the morning. I need the morning.
Daniel: Yeah. Knowing that is important. I mean, when I was younger it was different, but now my mind needs those morning hours, you know.
nathan: Yeah, I need those. I think the earlier the better as well for me. if I'm if I can get
Daniel: Yeah, yeah.
nathan: up at six before my partner and
my kids up, then
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: my brain just feels fresher, feels just on it. So yeah, yeah,
Daniel: Yeah, same.
nathan: definitely. Morning hours are so great.
Daniel: Yeah. And it's so funny, I was younger, like trying to break in, you just writing through the night and not feeling anyway in it, and just being like
nathan: No.
Daniel: I would never be that person that wakes up early and now I'm just like, Wow, it's just the best. And my mind just feels clear and I can just
nathan: Yes, I can't be on Deadline Day there was one film I handed in this year that I did do an all-nighter on. That was pretty rough. But it was more about the spell check draft. I was like was going through
Daniel: yeah. Right.
nathan: making sure it was sort of readable. And it was, thank god. But I don't like doing that.
Daniel: And then when you were sending it out, is that via your network or is that via your agent? And how do you feel about networking and how how would you network now or how did you network when you were trying to break in?
nathan: I actually really love networking, 'cause I mean when we were going when we were I don't really net I'm not like not this isn't a flex but I don't r really network now as much 'cause I just I feel like we know a lot of the people. I've got a one year old, I barely go out, so
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: yeah. But I love networking If there is a networking opportunity, generally I'll always be with a friend and generally I network best when I'm supported by my friends. Cause naturally, if you're a good vibe, people want to come over and talk to you and then you meet people and you exchange details and I kinda love that part of it. I don't like going
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: into a room on my own and having to network. But if I'm with loads of people I like And we're in a room where networking is happening and drinks are flowing. I love that community aspect of like we're all struggling
Daniel: Yeah. Yeah.
nathan: artists who wanna tell people who we are. I kind of am with that. and then regarding the scripts being sent out, yeah. When I was starting up, I was hustling and guessing emails and doing all the things you do. Whereas now my agent sends them out, and I'm very grateful for that because That's long the other way around. So, yeah, I'm very blessed now that the agents will just send them out and let me know if I've been rejected or not rejected or whatever, whatever.
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: What about you? What what's your flats?
Daniel: I'm the same, we're fortunate now especially, we know so many people that even if you're entering a room, you're gonna know the odd person, you know, there. You might have them
nathan: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Daniel: before or you might have met them before, or you know and it's not people you know that were gonna be there, you just you know, by chance. and and also we're going in there with with experience in a C V so there's it the the level of like you're meeting peers, you're meeting potential peers, you're meeting people who will potentially know people you know and it's it doesn't come with the same level of pressure as when you're trying to break in and it's networking and it's a bit different. I d I didn't like that. Yeah.
nathan: No. Yeah, that is really different, actually. That's a good point. That is really different. When I started at that point, that was really nerve-wracking because there
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: would be someone in the room that you felt like you had to talk to. So
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: there felt a pressure. Whereas now, there probably is always someone in the room I should talk to, but I'm like, I know now the best thing to do as an is for me to create a piece of work. Well that person is gonna come and talk to me. Or like,
Daniel: Hmm. Right. Right.
nathan: I can sell it to them. Or like the work is the best talking tool ever. so
Daniel: Yeah. Yeah.
nathan: essentially as long as I go and do that, I'll eventually manifest the way to that person, hopefully.
Daniel: Yeah. Yeah, and you know, you could even ask your reps to be like, Can I get a general with them or you know, so
nathan: Exactly, exactly.
Daniel: but yeah, those earlier years was was nerve wracking and stressful and you know But I'm lucky enough to have been in other places where They were open to meeting writers, so there'd be I got on the BBC Writers Rooms, you know, and those sort of schemes and they'd have like things
nathan: So good.
Daniel: on Zoom sometimes where it's like a there's a really good thing they did, which is I I'm still in touch with some of them people where they got us writers and then they got like ten execs and they did this kind of speed dating thing on Zoom and it would five minutes you're chatting to an exec or a script editor and then five minutes someone else had five minutes. Like I got work off the bas of that back of that, I've made friends
nathan: So good.
Daniel: That like people I'm still like sharing stuff with now. so that was that was really good. But that was, you know, was the scheme, the BBC writers.
nathan: No, but that's so good. I I I didn't do the writer's room, but I had
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: a version of that with CBB's where I'd written a couple of Rastermouse. This was like when they were worried about diversity and all that shit. So they literally just
Daniel: Okay. Okay.
nathan: what is, I don't know what they're doing now, but they this was This one producer, Big Don Vanessa Amberley at CBB's, she got this production company to bring in six diverse writers that had written on Raster Mouse and she hired us all at the e by the end of the meeting she said you're all if you want jobs writing on our shows I'll sort it out and she sorted it out and from that moment is when I went it's as easy as that we all got credits
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: at CBB's that helped our writing career I still get royalties from those episodes so that producer was game changer, absolute just when
Daniel:
Yeah. Wow.
nathan: it's as easy as that. You've all already got credits and I'm gonna carry on those credits. And I felt she
Daniel: Wow.
nathan: really was amazing. So big up her.
Daniel: Could you s would you mind quickly just the steps leading up to getting in the room with her? How did how did that come about?
nathan: So basically I had a cartoon idea and I like I didn't really have writing representation at that time. My acting agents were the thing. And so like I guess also I didn't have a script. I didn't really I knew what I wanted this cartoon to be, but I hadn't written a script, but I'd commissioned loads of artwork from an amazing artist called Dappo who Also went on to illustrate my children's books, and now he's like one of the best illustrators in the country. So he'd done loads of artwork for me, and I developed it into like a 40-page Bible of what I thought
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: this cartoon was. Like characters, stories, like I printed it out, laminated it, boom, boom, boom. and I was like, me and my best friend one day, we he wanted to talk to the head of Warner Brothers. 'Cause he wanted to I don't he w he w I don't anyway. And I wanted to talk to the guy who produced Raster Mouse because the cartoon I wanted to make was really like Rastom. So that night at his, we both sent these emails. Me to the guy from Rastermouse, my friend to the head of Warner Brothers, UK, who he guessed we both guessed these emails. We made them up until they went
Daniel: Wow.
nathan: through.
Daniel: Wow.
nathan: so they bounce back, bounce back until they both went through. And my best friend called me as I'm on the train station. He's like, The head of Warner Brothers has emailed me back, bro. He said he never gets emails like this. And would I like to come meet him at Warner Brothers? He'll take me round and we'll have a chat. So he goes around Warner Brothers with the head of Warner Brothers. and the guy offers him work experience and just says, like, you know, keep doing exactly what you're doing. And then I get an email back from my guy. Greg Borman and he's like, come in and meet me. And I tell my mum this how young I am and my mum comes to the meeting with me. She's like, I don't know what fucking weird people you're emailing on the internet. So my mum comes to this meeting. She sat four tables
Daniel: wow.
nathan: down, being like, if anything goes down, I'm about to box someone for my son.
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: and the man basic Greg buys my cartoon and options it sorry and he goes Do you want to write for Rastermouse? And I was like, what? Yes. And so that was my first professional TV credit. So I wrote
Daniel: Wow.
nathan: two rep episodes for Rastermouse. And that Greg's just one of the nicest. I'm gonna text him after this. He's one of the greatest TV producers I've ever met. So kind and generous. He got loads of new writers through. Like people who had never written a thing to first. TV credits.
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: and then Vanessa was
the producer, like a big dog producer at CBBC. And so when Raster Mouse was going well, she came in, she got Greg to gather everyone who he rated, and it was me, Cara Smith, Mawan Rizwan, a couple other peeps in this room, and Vanessa was like, Let's get you all on shows, and just like that. We all got
Daniel: Wow.
nathan: on shows at CB Reed. So it all stemmed from me guessing somebody's email, that person saying, I'll meet you but I had the
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: I had the product. It was it was an idea and he bought that and then put me on a show. So it that changed my life completely.
Daniel: Wow, what a story. That's amazing.
nathan: It was sick. So I that's why I always say to like people who are breaking through, don't listen to anybody telling you not to like or to like fall in line or like do you know there's so many people in our industry that want you to like what do they call it? Like do your I don't know they want you to feel the pain that they felt.
Daniel: You do it.
nathan: Pay your dues or whatever. I'm the opposite.
Daniel: Mm. Yeah.
nathan: I'm like fuck that, skip that, find the biggest person.
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: Go talk to them, tell them how great you are, fail, go and do something like prove you can as long as you're making the work and you're not a bullshitter, people wanna know. They wanna know if you're making the work. So make the
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: work and then go and find a way to tell the people how good your work is. And don't worry about industry hierarchy. Don't worry about annoying people. Don't just do what do what the fuck you wanna do.
Daniel: Aim high. I love it.
nathan: Aim the highest. What do you mean? Who cares? We've got I I read
Daniel: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
nathan: a bit of Ari Emmanuel's novel,
Daniel: yeah.
nathan: Cool Cool the Rolls. And he's just like, call them until they like threaten to never talk to you again. I've never done that and I don't recommend it.
Daniel: Ha ha ha ha ha.
nathan: But I'm saying, like, that's what we were doing, guessing the head of Warner Brothers emails. Like that's that's what we were doing. So yeah.
Daniel: Wow, yeah. Love it. and so could we go back to your scripts and you've sent them out to your friends or your colleagues, your missus and you're getting notes. How do you like to get notes on your scripts?
nathan: Well, I my partner is a like really good T V director, so she knows how to give really good notes. So she will write them down or like tell me three or four really key points that I need to know and then I can kinda get on with that. So and she's her notes are just really good, like it's annoying. yeah, she's just really smart. So that's good. And then from I don't mind to be honest though. Like my best friend will give them they're much more like in the moment, more scatty, more thoughts
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: that I could ignore or could follow up. And then if I pay someone like Philip Shelley to read, then he will order those notes in a really articulate, beautiful, simple way.
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: I just take them. As they come really, I don't have a structure of it, but I try and
Daniel: Okay.
nathan: like respond to them all as much as I can.
Daniel: Yeah. Yeah.
nathan: Which is cool.
Daniel: is there anything like yeah, because we we broke in, we're working, and then we're meeting people that are aspiring writers. Is there anything that like things you've learned that you're like, wait, it's not what I thought. It's it's so different this way. something that you hear aspiring writers are doing that you think, you don't really need to do that to break in, or you need to focus more on this instead?
nathan: Say the most important thing for inspiring writers and for us all to do is like what we were saying before this call is make your work if you can. if that's a short film, if that's a comic
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: book, if that's a what do they call it now? Vertic vertical drama, if that's satin on fucking Instagram. Like what we must remember is that we're artists, right? And the reason we wanna write is that we wanna tell people about how we see the world. And now you and I are in a great position. We get to be full time professional writers and that's a dream. But with that dream, it means that there's a lot of natural rejection that your work can't always get made. Now the some of the happiest days of my life were me also making my films, paying everyone with pizza and beer. And then screening them at the BFI, traveling up the
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: country for film festivals, because the work was in the middle of my hand and I was part of creating it. And whilst I was poor as shit, and I definitely prefer where I am now financially, I I was in the middle of my art. Whereas at the moment, like Or even if you look at I co-wrote the film Ry Lane and it's like even that film, me and Tom, that's our baby, we write that film for three, four years, and then Rain, our incredible director, comes on, the studios come on, and there's an element where you pass that baby kind of on. And like Rain's great, she involved us the whole time and it was great and joyous. But there is an e it's completely different to you creating your own work. that
Daniel: Yeah, right.
nathan: process was very joyous, cause seeing it felt like that was my heart. I felt like I did see my heart on the screen.
Daniel: Wow.
nathan: But all the other stuff you're developing takes four or five years. And if in that four or five years you're not making your own shit, you'll lose your mind. So I would always say to aspiring writers, find a way to create something physical for yourself so that the industry's development hell doesn't become your whole life. Cause that's That's really important.
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: And then also, I would say it's nothing that writers don't need to do or do need to do. You really just need to be as delusional as possible. there's so many failings you take in this industry, and so many people
drop things and they there's so many failings. You fail so much. You have to have a delusional
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: mind to carry on. So I'd say be delusional.
Daniel: Yeah, and be Yeah, and and take the hits. I remember
nathan: yeah.
Daniel: couple of weeks ago I got like just two rejections on a Friday. I can't remember what they were for, but you know, rejection
nathan: On a Friday? What the fuck?
Daniel: Exactly, that was my first thought. I was like, How could you do this? It's Friday afternoon. You've obviously just getting through your emails before the end of your day for your weekend, and I'm like, how could they do that, man? What what the hell? Why'd they do this to me? Had the weekend. Following Monday I got three more rejections on some other projects and I was like, how are they gonna do this on a Monday? Like it's the beginning of the week. And I was like, wait, maybe maybe just learn to take rejections. There's no perfect day in it. It could be on a Wednesday and I'd like, it's the middle of the week. How do they give me rejection?
nathan: Wheat, SNER Thursday, what the hell? But it is still it's still hard, isn't it? There's no day that's good for rejection when you poured your heart into something.
Daniel: No, yeah. Yeah. No. I mean Nah. A nine thirty AM on a Monday email saying thanks for this, but not right. It was a bit like it's not really how you want to start your week, you know. But Yeah, it's there's a there's so much rejection.
nathan: No, it's not. But but it does fuel I do like I'm quite petty, so if I do have a rejection of something I really care about, it does fuel my bullshit. I'm like, okay,
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: bet okay. That's you've just put that on the fire for me. I'm about to fucking show you how good this thing is. Or I'm gonna I do
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: get quite fired up by rejection
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: as well. I do I'm not I don't like it by any means, God forbid, but I do like using my pissed off energy to drive me in a way.
Daniel: That's cool. I love that. Yeah. Turn it into fuel. so
nathan: Yes, hell yes.
Daniel: I'm gonna ask you a couple rapid fire questions now. you could do one answer or you could do a paragraph sentence, you know, however you feel, but we'll try and do these quickly. so let's say a new writer, they've got a script but they've got an hour a day outside of their day job life to try and break into the industry. What would you advise they do?
nathan: Wha s sorry, this isn't this is a fuck your rapid fire already. they've got an hour a day. They've got an hour a day
Daniel: No worries, but Yep.
nathan: and what?
Daniel: They've already written a script, they've written a script or two, but they're trying to break in, get pr sell an option option a project, get an agent, they wanna break in, but they've only got an hour because life, day job, what should they be doing for that hour?
nathan: Mmm. three things which you could swap between the three out the hours of the day. So one with one of those hours, be making sure that whatever scripts you have are as refined, as strong, as polished as possible. Then with the second hour on the Tuesday, I would be shooting off some emails to try and meet some producers, to join a writing club, to do meet to expand your network to eventually get people to read your work. And then with the following
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: hour, on another day, I'd be trying to find a way to make a piece of work. So I'd be trying to produce get an actor to make write a monologue that you've written or make a short film or do whatever. So y you kinda need to s do all of those tasks. and if you've got an hour a day, that's a few weeks work you've got. The plenty of time to kind of
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: do. So sorry, not very rapid. Ha
Daniel: Well, who knows how rapid this next one will be. What's your thoughts on AI?
nathan: Hmm. My thoughts on AI Look, it's frightening because we all know that one day there's a chance that AI will write a full script that will be some crazy Star Wars movie and will we know it wrote it, will we not? That's really scary. I don't want to worry about that fact because I'm not living in that present. So I think AI can also be a very good tool for learning about stuff. Learning about right. If you like, you know when people are asked you like what are three good ways to use that hour? Ask AI. Let it plan those hours, you know? Like use
Daniel: Right. Mm, mm.
nathan: I'm not against people using it to learn, using it for research, using it for it. Just don't get it to write your shit. don't get it to write your lines. Don't get it to do that. But if you wanna learn about structure, it's a very good mechanical way to understand the beats of a movie or any of those things. I think use it as a teaching tool. Just don't use it as a tool which impacts anyway I don't I'm not making no rules for no one use it for however the fuck you want to use it but I would just say use it as a tool to help you if you need it basically but remember it's one day gonna take your job so just remember when it goes left just remember you know just remember
Daniel: what book or course or YouTube video or podcasts would you recommend up and coming writer watch, listen, consume?
nathan: I love script notes. I think it's great. I love The Restors Entertainment with Richard Osman. I think that's great. I love I think Save the Cat is a really good book. It was the first time I sort of understand that the use of setting a genre for your movie is deeply important and really understanding like what is your movie so you can sell your movie. It's not a trick question. So I really enjoyed that book. I felt it wasn't too dense. Like, you know, some of them are a bit just I'm dyslexic, so it's like allow all that just extra
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: faff. So give it to me simple. I loved the marketing book, The Purple Cow. I thought that was really good. About creating things that stand out in a in a world full of ideas. I
loved Rick Rubin's book, The Art of Creativity, maybe. I loved how airy fairy that is, and
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
nathan: And I that sounds offensive, but it in the sense of it's really about getting in touch with who you are. And I think even me, I still sometimes I'm working and I'm like, wait, are you talking from your heart here? If not, dig in further, because that's the true where where the true gold lies. And I think Rick Rubin's
Daniel: Yeah.
nathan: book pushes you to do that. and yeah, YouTube man, YouTube's banging. Go on that. For every writer has done a good hour about how they work. So that's a really good tool. and
Daniel: Hmm.
nathan: yeah.
Daniel: Is there do you have an all time favorite TV show or film that you think is just the greatest piece of work written by I Rock?
nathan: Yeah, 30 Rock, I love. 30 Rock. it's very problematic. I think there might even be someone in blackface in it. So yeah, that's fucked. But at the time of my life, and I've it's the only show that I've re-watched the whole series of. And there's a reason that it's it's mad and it's zany and it's weird and it just brought me loads of joy. So even though some of it is fucked. I loved it.
Daniel: So I wanna go back now quickly just before we wrap up, we're gonna go all the way back. We've gone through your whole journey, your amazing like heroes journey that you've gone through.
nathan: Yeah.
Daniel: But like let's go back to that beginning then when you're starting out and you haven't you've just started writing those first few ideas and you wanna break in and wanna be a professional writer. What piece of advice would you give yourself back then?
nathan: but it's really funny because I've always been on that same I've always unfortunately been very delusional and audacious. My best friends are all dreamers. So when we started, even though we didn't have the skill, we believed we were going to make the biggest movies in the world, which is still yet to be seen. But So yeah, I would say you have to keep being delusional and mad. You just must. You just have to be audacious. You have to believe in yourself. Cause otherwise, why the hell would you sit behind a laptop all day? and I
Daniel: Mm.
nathan: would say actually, funny enough, now I'm in my mid thirties and I'm still doing this. I would say now more than ever, I need that advice that I gave myself then, now. Because now
Daniel: Really?
nathan: you're in it, you're in the industry, you're looking at the grand prize of the Oscars and all these things, and you're like, Am I just as far away? Or am I closer? And now I'm saying to myself, I'm having to remind myself of being audacious and delusional, and it's pushing me. This year I've had to re-r re-remind myself. So I think I've had a little burnout last year, and I'm really enjoying. audaciously creating again. Whereas I think I lost a bit of that spark. and it coming back is really nice.
Daniel: Thank you so much, man. That was a beautiful one. This has been great.
nathan: Man, thank you. It's good. Thank you for all the great questions. It's so nice to talk writing shit.
Daniel: Yeah. Thanks for listening, everyone. Hope you enjoyed that. Let me know on Facebook what you think if you have any suggestions or questions. There'll also be information there about a free QA that I have coming up, as well as future workshops and seminars. so yeah, check us out there. Till then, get back to your pages and remember there will be notes.